From owner-rockhounds-digest@drizzle.com Mon Sep 6 14:34:37 1999 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:28:02 -0700 From: rockhounds-digest Reply-To: rockhounds@drizzle.com To: rockhounds-digest@drizzle.com Subject: rockhounds-digest V1 #83 rockhounds-digest Friday, August 20 1999 Volume 01 : Number 083 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:43:15 EDT From: Glbgch1@cs.com Subject: Re: Fee digging location book info I found it on Amazon.com thanks to a list member. ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:48:55 EDT From: Bozo5@aol.com Subject: more diffraction In a message dated 99-08-19 10:24:48 EDT, you write: << Diffraction is the scattering of the light by a substance. Refraction is the bending of light by a substance. You can see this very well in water, things put into it are offset. interference is like moire patterns in sound. You get concentration and rarefaction. If you drop 2 pebbles into the water at different locations and the waves are travelling toward each other/ Some will cancell each other out where the waves and troughs meet at the same place. The concentration is where the two crests meet at the same place. >> INTERFERENCE AND DIFFRACTION All true, but going a little farther: Imagine a single straight wave of water reaching a straight tank wall. It will bounce ( reflect) back into the pool. A series of waves will all bounce one after another whatever the spacing between the waves and whatever the angle between the waves and the wall. The magic of diffraction is that the waves will reflect off a line of pegs in the water as they would off the wall if the spacing between the pegs is correct (for that particular wavelength and angle of incidence). As the straight wave hits the pegs, the pegs give off circular waves. These circular waves run into each other (INTERFERING), sometimes adding, sometimes cancelling. The final result of all this mixing and adding is a DIFFRACTED straight wave headed in the right direction. (I have never actually seen the above demo, but it should work) (keeping this rockhound-related) When doing x-ray crystallography the atoms are arranged in a three dimentional array in the crystal. As you rotate the crystal while blasting it with the x-ray beam usually nothing happens, the x-ray goes straight through. Only when the atoms are lined up just so do you get a "reflection" (actually a diffraction). By analyzing the angles (or the spacing on a piece of film) you can measure the spacing of the molecules in the crystal, the "unit cell". Getting a picture of what that molecule looks like is much more involved and has to do with analyzing the intensity of the reflections. You have to use X-rays because that is the "color" that is correct for the spacings usually found in crystals. Soap bubbles have a thickness and two surfaces, inner and outer. When light hits the bubble, most passes through, some reflects off the outer surface and some reflects off the inner surface. Since were talking about a _series_ of waves it is possible that the thickness of the bubble (and thus the extra distance travelled by the light that bounced off the inner surface) is an exact number of wave lengths. The wave that reflects off the outer surface might meet up with the wave that was four or five waves ahead but had to pass through the soap, reflect off the inner surface and pass through the soap again to get back to the outer surface. If so the two reflected waves add together and can be seen. If the extra distance is exactly off by one half wavelength the two waves cancel and nothing is seen. (Unless you are using white light which is actually a mixture of all colors. In that case you will see the color for which the distance IS an integral number of wavelengths. If that color is not present you wont see it.) Again, angle comes into it because light passing through the bubble at a larger angle (from vertical) passes through a larger thickness of soap. So, with white light and varying angles you will see a rainbow of colors as each set of reflected waves add up when the soap thickness is just right for one color after another. REFRACTION For a nice graphic view of how a change in velocity causes light to bend, imagine this: An axle with two wheels attached rolling across a sidewalk at an angle to the edge of the grass. The direction of travel is a straight line until one wheel hits the grass. Since it is harder to move the wheel through the grass than across the concrete, that wheel slows down. The other wheel keeps going at the original speed and turns the axle as it gets ahead of the slow wheel. Eventually the second wheel gets to the grass and slows down as well and the axle stops turning. The axle goes straight across the grass, but not in the direction it was going on the sidewalk. Bill Nye does a really great bit with a marching band running into a hill. They march in at an angle so one corner gets to the hill first. As each member starts up the hill he slows down. The lines of band members bend and the whole band marches in a different direction (more directly uphill). Too much? Not enough? Flint ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:05:43 EDT From: RicSchager@aol.com Subject: Re: geode and cast iron pipe cutter Maybe it depend on the type of geode. I know that the West Coast type of geode that I collect look much better cut. Others may not... Rich. ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:23:29 EDT From: EMe3026537@aol.com Subject: ammolite help! can someone tell me please how to prevent separation of the thin layers of ammolite when making doublets or tripplets. my tripplets are falling apart when i grind the top and it,s happening within the ammolite layers. top,s o.k. bottom,s o.k. any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Eric. ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:28:58 -0600 (MDT) From: opaleyes1@webtv.net (Oren\\Susan Nielson) Subject: Re: geode and cast iron pipe cutter We have used both methods to open a geode. If you believe you will be sawing through a crystal specimen, then you would be better off to crack it, but the sawn ones are prettier if you don't have to worry about damage to internal structures. Up to the individual, try both ways and go with whatever suits you the best. No absolute rules, but it can affect the value, if you have damage to the inside from either method. Good luck, Sue opaleyes1@webtv.net ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:35:32 -0600 (MDT) From: opaleyes1@webtv.net (Oren\\Susan Nielson) Subject: Re: ammolite help! Eric, we have always had to mount a supportive backing onto the base of the ammolite, as close to the color layer as possible, then saw into rough preform, and apply cap with almost no grinding. I have even hand sanded to smooth the top for the cap appliction. Vibration from a grinder is hard on the material in some cases. You might try a higher grit and very light touch. Careful! Good luck, Sue opaleyes1@webtv.net ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:51:13 -0600 From: "Michael Schmidt" Subject: Re: ammolite help! my partner produces approximately 250-300 triplets per week. Without going into huge detail, this is basically the process: 1. cut the matrix down into very thin sheets suitable as a backing material 2. flat lap (a very little bit) the colour you wish to cut. 3. (Depending on the material, most material is better this way) glue with a two part epoxy the colour side down onto the thin matrix. 4. The best colour is generally found by grinding from the back into the stone. 5. When the desired coulour is apparant, make sure that the stone is grease free and glue down the cap For the most part, most triplet cap failures are caused by bad glue Now, if the problems you are having have nothing to do with glue separation, you have two choices: 1. saturate the material with CA glue 2. throw away the material and buy some good cutting rough. For the most part, good cuttable ammolite will not fracture and split the way you describe. Good material is solid. It sounds like you have sheet material from fossils, and not compressed material from concretions For the most part, you will not get reliably stable gemstones cut from inferior material such as this. High fracture (pattern), solid ammolite is a wonderful gem material if you can find good material. Good material is, however, quite expensive. Hope this helps Michael - -----Original Message----- From: EMe3026537@aol.com To: rockhounds@drizzle.com Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:30 PM Subject: ammolite help! >can someone tell me please how to prevent separation of the thin layers of >ammolite when making doublets or tripplets. my tripplets are falling apart >when i grind the top and it,s happening within the ammolite layers. top,s >o.k. bottom,s o.k. any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Eric. >################################################################# ># To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # ># to with the following keys: # ># subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # ># rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# >################################################################# > ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:05:13 EDT From: EMe3026537@aol.com Subject: Re: ammolite help! thank you very much Michael!!! ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:59:27 EDT From: NeophyteSG@aol.com Subject: Carved Roses I'm trying to finish yet another of my projects. Can someone direct me to a supplier of carved stone or coral roses, preferably less than 1 inch in size. I've tried a fairly discriminative web search but end up with several hundred to several thousand hits depending on the boolean phrasing I use. Thanks! Shawn ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:10:08 +0200 From: "Dillen" Subject: Grayish vanadinite Hi, This story I sent to Nick Morales might be of interest to others, therefore I send it to the list (with the blessing of Nick, of course). Regards, Rik - -----Original Message----- From: Dillen [mailto:dillen@online.be] Sent: donderdag 19 augustus 1999 21:07 To: Nick Morales Subject: Grayish vanadinite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >........Anyway, I picked up about a half dozen small cabinet size vanadinite specimens from Morocco that have on one side bright red color, but >on the other side have a growth layer of gray color, with the center still red. Some of the xls are .7 to 1 cm in diameter. Have you ever encountered vanadinite colored like this? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Nick, Back in 1988 I wrote a short article on this subject. Translation (somewhat condensed) : At the show MINERANT 86 (Antwerp show) nice specimens labeled "pyromorphite" from Touissit, Morocco were presented. analyses have shown that these were not pyromorphite, but vanadinite. Our analysis is consistent with the literature (Kurz H., 1986 and white J.S., 1984). The specimens showed crystals from a few mm to more than 1 cm, with a gray-beige color. They are prismatic to almost tabular, and the prism-faces are sometimes bent (the analoguous variety of pyromorphite is called in Germany "Emmser Tönnchen"). Most crystals show also very small, but well defined {20-21} faces. Theoretically the formula of vanadinite is Pb5Cl(VO4)3, but KURZ as well als WHITE also found some 1 % of P2O5 and 1 to 3 % As2O5; that implies the following formula : Pb5Cl(VO4)2.5(AsO4)0.3(P2O5)0.2, consistent with the formulas of pyromorphite and mimetesite. KURZ and WHITE also identified on the same specimens olivebrown microcrystals of mottramite and black crusts of coronadite. These minerals could not be found, unfortunately, on our specimens. In the meantime I have seen indeed bicolored specimens. Litterature KURZ R. (1986), "Vanadinit von Touissit, Marokko", Der Aufschluss 37, 339-341 WHITE J.S. (1984), "Vanadinite from Touissit, Morocco, and comments on endlichite", Mineralogical Record 15(6), 347-350 PALACHE C. (1951), "Dana's system of mineralogy, vol. II", J. Wiley & sons, Inc., New York, pp. 889-898 (yes, a previous Dana edition that was a joy to read... and contained virtually no errors... and costed much less... etc...) Now that I translated this, would you agree that I publish your question and my answer on the Rockhounds list ? Best regards, Rik Dillen Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 770 6007 E-mail dillen@online.be Homepage : http://user.online.be/dillen/index.html >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean stamp >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.xs4all.nl/~mineral/index.html >>> The Dana errata page >>> The virtual quarry >>> Antwerp mineral show >>> and much more ! ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:27:23 -0700 From: Trapp_Richard@pop.state.az.us (Richard Trapp) Subject: Re: Grayish vanadinite I have vanadinite crystals from the Puzzler Mine in Arizona that have the same color as those described here, so it's not just "vanadinite" from Morocco that displays this color. The crystals that I have are "hopper" crystals to about .5 cm in height. Parts of the crystals are gray and parts are the usual vanadinite red-orange color. Rick Dillen wrote: > > Hi, > > This story I sent to Nick Morales might be of interest to others, therefore > I send it to the list (with the blessing of Nick, of course). > Regards, > > Rik > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dillen [mailto:dillen@online.be] > Sent: donderdag 19 augustus 1999 21:07 > To: Nick Morales > Subject: Grayish vanadinite > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >........Anyway, I picked up about a half dozen small cabinet size > vanadinite specimens from Morocco that have on one side bright red color, > but > >on the other side have a growth layer of gray color, with the center still > red. Some of the xls are .7 to 1 cm in diameter. Have you ever encountered > vanadinite colored like this? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Hi Nick, > > Back in 1988 I wrote a short article on this subject. Translation (somewhat > condensed) : > > At the show MINERANT 86 (Antwerp show) nice specimens labeled "pyromorphite" > from Touissit, Morocco were presented. analyses have shown that these were > not pyromorphite, but vanadinite. Our analysis is consistent with the > literature (Kurz H., 1986 and white J.S., 1984). > > The specimens showed crystals from a few mm to more than 1 cm, with a > gray-beige color. They are prismatic to almost tabular, and the prism-faces > are sometimes bent (the analoguous variety of pyromorphite is called in > Germany "Emmser Tönnchen"). Most crystals show also very small, but well > defined {20-21} faces. > > Theoretically the formula of vanadinite is Pb5Cl(VO4)3, but KURZ as well als > WHITE also found some 1 % of P2O5 and 1 to 3 % As2O5; that implies the > following formula : Pb5Cl(VO4)2.5(AsO4)0.3(P2O5)0.2, consistent with the > formulas of pyromorphite and mimetesite. > > KURZ and WHITE also identified on the same specimens olivebrown > microcrystals of mottramite and black crusts of coronadite. These minerals > could not be found, unfortunately, on our specimens. > > In the meantime I have seen indeed bicolored specimens. > > Litterature > > KURZ R. (1986), "Vanadinit von Touissit, Marokko", Der Aufschluss 37, > 339-341 > WHITE J.S. (1984), "Vanadinite from Touissit, Morocco, and comments on > endlichite", Mineralogical Record 15(6), 347-350 > PALACHE C. (1951), "Dana's system of mineralogy, vol. II", J. Wiley & sons, > Inc., New York, pp. 889-898 > (yes, a previous Dana edition that was a joy to read... and contained > virtually no errors... and costed much less... etc...) > > Now that I translated this, would you agree that I publish your question and > my answer on the Rockhounds list ? > > Best regards, > > Rik Dillen > Doornstraat 15 > B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium - -- Rick Trapp Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey Trapp_Richard@pop.state.az.us ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:18:11 -0400 From: Christopher Leger Subject: Re: Grayish vanadinite: photosensitive? Good info Rik, Just for the record (and for those who do not know) vanadinite is also known to change color with prolonged exposure to light - i.e. it is photosensitive. The bright red color of vanadinite can change to the same grey-beige color that is described below. I have seen museum specimens that, when turned over for the first time for years, display the original bright red underneath and a much duller, greyer top. For more info on other photosensitive minerals, check out the "In the Spotlight" story on that topic: http://collectminerals.about.com At 10:10 PM 8/20/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi, > >This story I sent to Nick Morales might be of interest to others, therefore >I send it to the list (with the blessing of Nick, of course). >Regards, > >Rik > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dillen [mailto:dillen@online.be] >Sent: donderdag 19 augustus 1999 21:07 >To: Nick Morales >Subject: Grayish vanadinite > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>........Anyway, I picked up about a half dozen small cabinet size >vanadinite specimens from Morocco that have on one side bright red color, >but >>on the other side have a growth layer of gray color, with the center still >red. Some of the xls are .7 to 1 cm in diameter. Have you ever encountered >vanadinite colored like this? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Hi Nick, > >Back in 1988 I wrote a short article on this subject. Translation (somewhat >condensed) : > >At the show MINERANT 86 (Antwerp show) nice specimens labeled "pyromorphite" >from Touissit, Morocco were presented. analyses have shown that these were >not pyromorphite, but vanadinite. Our analysis is consistent with the >literature (Kurz H., 1986 and white J.S., 1984). > >The specimens showed crystals from a few mm to more than 1 cm, with a >gray-beige color. They are prismatic to almost tabular, and the prism-faces >are sometimes bent (the analoguous variety of pyromorphite is called in >Germany "Emmser Tönnchen"). Most crystals show also very small, but well >defined {20-21} faces. > >Theoretically the formula of vanadinite is Pb5Cl(VO4)3, but KURZ as well als >WHITE also found some 1 % of P2O5 and 1 to 3 % As2O5; that implies the >following formula : Pb5Cl(VO4)2.5(AsO4)0.3(P2O5)0.2, consistent with the >formulas of pyromorphite and mimetesite. > >KURZ and WHITE also identified on the same specimens olivebrown >microcrystals of mottramite and black crusts of coronadite. These minerals >could not be found, unfortunately, on our specimens. > >In the meantime I have seen indeed bicolored specimens. > >Litterature > >KURZ R. (1986), "Vanadinit von Touissit, Marokko", Der Aufschluss 37, >339-341 >WHITE J.S. (1984), "Vanadinite from Touissit, Morocco, and comments on >endlichite", Mineralogical Record 15(6), 347-350 >PALACHE C. (1951), "Dana's system of mineralogy, vol. II", J. Wiley & sons, >Inc., New York, pp. 889-898 > (yes, a previous Dana edition that was a joy to read... and contained >virtually no errors... and costed much less... etc...) > >Now that I translated this, would you agree that I publish your question and >my answer on the Rockhounds list ? > >Best regards, > >Rik Dillen >Doornstraat 15 >B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas >Belgium > >Tel. + 32 3 770 6007 >E-mail dillen@online.be > >Homepage : http://user.online.be/dillen/index.html >>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>>> An own find on a Korean stamp >>>> Exchange list > >Mineral collector's page >http://www.xs4all.nl/~mineral/index.html > >>>> The Dana errata page >>>> The virtual quarry >>>> Antwerp mineral show >>>> and much more ! > >################################################################# ># To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # ># to with the following keys: # ># subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # ># rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# >################################################################# - -- Christopher Leger (collectminerals.guide@about.com) Your About.com Guide to Mineral Collecting http://collectminerals.about.com ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:30:59 EDT From: MinPhoto@aol.com Subject: c-face quartz revisited (with pictures)! I recently uncovered a small lot of c-face (0001) amethyst quartz from Four Peaks Area, Mazatzel Mountains, Gila County, Arizona. These are most likely the real thing. The quartz from this locality occurs in two habits: pointy and squashed. The pointy ones look like what you would expect from quartz, all 'a' axis the same length and crystal terminating in a point. However, about 1/3 of the crystals have one 'a' axis somewhat shorted than the other two, resulting in a somewhat squashed crystal. It is these crystals that exhibit an elongated c-face instead of a pointy termination. The c-faces have a variety of appearance, some rough textured, some showing numerous reentrants and some having growth hillocks, but all are morphologically correct. I took some pictures of the c-face quartz and posted them at www.members.aol.com/minphoto These have some tricky JavaScript to help illustrate where the c-faces are, see the trick by holding the mouse over the picture for 3-5 seconds while a second picture loads on top of the first! Enjoy, Jeff ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:57:55 EDT From: MinPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: c-face quartz revisited (with pictures)! CORRECTED OOPS! I got the web site address wrong, try http://members.aol.com/minphoto/ Jeff ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# ################################################################# ------------------------------ End of rockhounds-digest V1 #83 ******************************* ################################################################# # To subscribe or unsubscribe to the Rockhoundz List, send mail # # to with the following keys: # # subscribe rockhounds (or) unsubscribe rockhounds # # rockhounds@drizzle.com | http://callisto.golder.com/rockhoundz# #################################################################