From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 1 08:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Dec 1 08:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody References: <002201c281c8$2b75add0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Message-ID: <001401c2995a$2c56fd40$1bb05a0c@fekib> I have written a parody entitled "How the Grinch Learned to Love Minerals", based on the Suess Christmas poem. I will not inflict it on the whole list, but if anyone is interested, e-mail me and I'll send you a copy. Larry Rush From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 1 09:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Sun Dec 1 09:12:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody Message-ID: Hello: Hope you had a good turkey day... Please send it. Take care, Larry Ps. How much snow do you have on the ground? How about the Cinq Quarry area? >From: "Lawrence Rush" >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: >Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody >Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:53:21 -0500 > >I have written a parody entitled "How the Grinch Learned to Love Minerals", >based on the Suess Christmas poem. I will not inflict it on the whole >list, >but if anyone is interested, e-mail me and I'll send you a copy. > >Larry Rush > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 1 09:39:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John@mlce.net) Date: Sun Dec 1 09:39:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] weed wacker rock saw In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On the topic of exotic diamond saws, does anyone know if there is such a >thing as a diamond chain saw? Has anyone ever seen or used one? > >Cheers, >Hans Durstling >Moncton, Canasda > A Cut Above has them out of Los Angeles, CA 1-800-444.2999. John D. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 1 14:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave & Angela Churchill) Date: Sun Dec 1 14:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody References: <002201c281c8$2b75add0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> <001401c2995a$2c56fd40$1bb05a0c@fekib> Message-ID: <002901c29987$9321dd60$84429a8e@DavidChurchill> H Larry; Can I see your parody - and possibly use it in my newsletter? Thanks a lot, Angela Churchill Burlington Gem and Mineral Club Newsletter(Burlington, Ontario, Canada) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rush" To: Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 11:53 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody > I have written a parody entitled "How the Grinch Learned to Love Minerals", > based on the Suess Christmas poem. I will not inflict it on the whole list, > but if anyone is interested, e-mail me and I'll send you a copy. > > Larry Rush > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 1 23:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sun Dec 1 23:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Microminerals Message-ID: <000f01c2998f$9dc06540$565204d0@jim> The Sauktown Sales website has been updated recently. I've finally = finished with the trip out west last spring. I updated the reports on = the last 3 localities visited, and added to the list Fluorite from the = Desert Rose Mine in New Mexico in tetrahexahedrons, and Mordenite from = the San Marcial Quarry in New Mexico. I've also added to the list some items from Summit Rock, Oregon: = Fluorapatite in clear acicular crystals and Aegirine, var. Acmite = pseudomorphs after Hypersthene.=20 There's also another batch of mounted specimens added. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.sauktown.com sauktown@adsnet.com or orders@sauktown.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 2 06:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush) Date: Mon Dec 2 06:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody References: Message-ID: <000f01c29a12$264155a0$edaf5a0c@fekib> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Bull To: Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody > Hello: > Hope you had a good turkey day... > Please send it. > > Take care, > Larry > > Ps. How much snow do you have on the ground? How about the Cinq Quarry > area? Not much snow left now. But it's a bit cold and raw right now. Maybe it will warm up in a week or so! ============================================================ How The Grinch Learned to Love Minerals (With apologies to Dr. Suess) Note: Permission for reprint granted to Lawrence Rush by Dr. Suess Enterprises, L.P.; No other rights granted. For reprint permission, please contact Larry Rush Every Rockhound down in Rockville Liked collecting a lot. But the Grinch Who lived just north of Rockville, Did NOT! The Grinch hated collecting!The whole crystal system! Now, please don't ask why. He knew not what he was missing! It could be he had never seen a nice Pyrite! It could be, perhaps, that he hadn't seen Apatite! But, I think that the most likely reason of all May have been that he had never collected at all! But, whatever the mineral He never had found, He stood there on Christmas Eve, hating rockhounds! Staring down from his cave with a sour, Grinchy frown At the lighted mineral cabinets below in their town. For he knew every 'hound down in Rockville below Was busy now, watching the fluorescents aglow! "And they're trading their extras!" he snarled with a sneer. They're especially happy, I can see that from here! Then he growled, with his Grinch fingers nervously drumming. "I MUST find some way to stop new specimens from coming!" For, tomorrow, he knew. All the rockhound girls and boys Would wake bright and early. They'd rush with delight, And then! They would cry "Look.Rhodochrosite!" That's one thing he hated! The JOY, JOY, JOY, JOY! Then the 'hounds, young and old, would yell "OH,BOY!" And they'd swap! And they'd trade! And they'd TRADE! TRADE! TRADE! TRADE! They would look at their Calcites, and rare Amethyst! Which was something the Grinch couldn't stand in the least! And THEN they'd do something he'd like least of all! Every 'hound down in Rockville, the tall and the small, Would stand close together, with Topaz's all! They'd stand hand-in-hand. And the 'hounds would have a ball! They'd sing! And they'd sing! AND they'd SING! SING! SING! SING! And the more the Grinch thought of this Rock-Christmas-Sing, The more the Grinch thought, "I must stop this whole thing! "Why, for fifty-three years I've put up with it now! I MUST stop this mineral Christmas from coming! But HOW?" Then he got an idea! An awful idea! THE GRINCH GOT A WONDERFUL, AWFUL IDEA! "I know just what to do!" the Grinch laughed in his throat. And he made a quick Santy Claus hat and a coat. And he chuckled, and clucked, "What a great Grinchy trick! "With this coat and this hat, I look just like Saint Nick!" "All I need is a reindeer." The Grinch looked around. But, since reindeer are scarce, there was none to be found. Did that stop the old Grinch.? No! The Grinch simply said, "If I can't find a reindeer, I'll make one instead!" So he called his dog, Max. Then he took some red thread And he tied a big horn on the top of his head. THEN he loaded some bags And some old empty sacks On a ramshackle sleigh And he hitched up old Max. Then the Grinch said "Giddap!" And the sleigh started down Toward the homes where the collectors Lay a-snooze in their town. All their windows were dark. Quiet snow filled the air. All the collectors were dreaming of Aquas so clear. When he came to the first little house on the square. "This is stop number one," the old Grinchy Claus hissed And he climbed to the roof, empty bags in his fist. Then he slid down the chimney. A rather tight pinch. But, if Santa could do it, then so could the Grinch. He got stuck only once, for a moment or two. Then he stuck his head out of the fireplace flue. Where the fine little Thumbnails were lined up in a row. "Those Thumbnails," he grinned, "are the first things to go!" Then he slithered and slunk, with a smile most heathen, Around the whole room, and he took every specimen! Tourmalines, Olivines, Quartzs', and Siderites! Obsidians, Garnets, Beryls, and Apatites! And he stuffed them in bags. Then the Grinch, very nimbly, Stuffed all the bags, one by one, up the chimbley! Then he slunk to the cabinets. He took the 'hounds best! He took the Pyromorphite! He took the all the rest! He cleaned out those cabinets as quick as a wink. Why, the Grinch even took their Pyrite from under the sink! Then he stuffed all the rocks up the chimney with glee. "And NOW!" grinned the Grinch, "I will stuff up the tree!" And the Grinch grabbed the tree, and he started to bound, When he heard a in the room small wimpery sound. He turned around fast, and he saw a small pebble-pup, Little Cindy-Lou pup, who had just wakened up. The Grinch had been caught by this tiny collector, Who'd got out of bed for a cup of cold water. She stared at the Grinch and said, "Santy Claus, why, "Why are you taking our minerals? WHY?" But, you know, that old Grinch was so smart and so slick He thought up a lie, and he thought it up quick! "Why, my sweet little tot," the fake Santy Claus lied, "There's a stain on this crystal that shows on one side. "So I'm taking it home to my workshop, my dear. "I'll clean it up there. Then I'll bring it back here." And his fib fooled the child. Then he patted her head And he got her a drink and he sent her to bed. And when Cindy-Lou went to bed Like a good pebble-pup, HE went to the chimney and stuffed the tree up! Then the last thing he took Was the 'scope for their micromounts. Then he went up the chimney, himself, with a bounce. On their shelves he left nothing but an old Dana book. And the one speck of rock That he left in the house Was some granite that was even too small for a mount. Then he did the same thing To the other Rockhounds, Leaving micros Much too small To even be found. It was quarter past dawn... All the Rockhounds, still abed, All the Rockhounds, still a-snooze When he packed up his sled, Packed it up with their crystals! The ribbons! The wrappings! The clusters! And the crystals! The gwindles! The trappings! Three thousand feet up! Up the side of Mt. Crumpit, He rode with his load to the tiptop to dump it! "Pooh-Pooh to the Hounds!" he was grinch-ish-ly humming. "They're finding out now that no Christmas is coming! "They're just waking up! I know just what they'll do! "Their mouths will hang open a minute or two "Then the Hounds down in Rockville will all cry BOO-HOO! "That's a noise," grinned the Grinch, "That I simply MUST hear!" So he paused. And the Grinch put his hand to his ear. And he did hear a sound rising over the snow. It started in low. Then it started to grow.. But the sound wasn't sad! Why, this sound sounded merry! It couldn't be so! But is WAS merry! VERY! He stared down at Rockville! The Grinch popped his eyes! Then he shook! What he saw was a shocking surprise! Every Hound down in Rockville , the tall and the small, Was singing! Without any minerals at all! He HADN'T stopped Christmas from coming! IT CAME! Somehow or other, it came just the same! And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow, Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so? "It came without crystals ! It came without pseudos ! "It came without micros, thumbnails or hexagonal do-doos!" And he puzzled three hours, till his puzzler was sore. Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't in mind! "Maybe Christmas," he thought, doesn't come from a mine. "Maybe Christmas.perhaps.means a little bit more!" And what happened then .? Well.in Rockville they say That the Grinch's small heart Grew three sizes that day! And the minute his heart didn't feel quite so broke, He whizzed with his load through the morning with hope. And he brought back the specs. ! And the mounts for the 'scope! And to the rockhounds, as he approached them, The Grinch himself felt and looked like a Gem! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 2 16:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Dec 2 16:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] show Message-ID: <003801c29a60$cc92b5e0$7786f7a5@peggy> list members any shows in Knoxville, Tenn area this weekend Dec 6-7-8? thanks=20 barny --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 2 21:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Mon Dec 2 21:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody References: <002201c281c8$2b75add0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> <001401c2995a$2c56fd40$1bb05a0c@fekib> <002901c29987$9321dd60$84429a8e@DavidChurchill> Message-ID: <000f01c29a88$4fc474e0$b63e27c4@horstspc> Hi all, The Witwatersrand Gem and Mineral Club (Johannesburg, South Africa)(of which I am an honorary member), has a "Rockhunting Song" (words by the late Dick Cullingworth and sung to the tune of either "Onward Christian Soldiers" or "Land of Hope and Glory". COMBINED VOICES:- Onward cheerful rockhounds., Marching to our song, Hear the pick-on-rock sounds, As we go along. LADY'S VOICES ONLY:- Onward merry Rockmaids, Members too are we, We too have our rockspades, Which we wield with glee. COMBINED VOICES:- Onward to the boulders, Each with pick and spade, Hav'sack on our shoulders, Looking for the jade. When the day is closing, We'll come marching back, Happy toasts-proposing, To what's in that sack. Around the evening fire, We'll discuss our fun, Happ'ly we'll retire, When the day is done. Horst--- Original Message ----- From: "Dave & Angela Churchill" To: Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody > H Larry; Can I see your parody - and possibly use it in my newsletter? > Thanks a lot, > Angela Churchill > Burlington Gem and Mineral Club Newsletter(Burlington, Ontario, Canada) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Rush" > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 11:53 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Grinch parody > > > > I have written a parody entitled "How the Grinch Learned to Love > Minerals", > > based on the Suess Christmas poem. I will not inflict it on the whole > list, > > but if anyone is interested, e-mail me and I'll send you a copy. > > > > Larry Rush > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 3 03:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Tue Dec 3 03:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] even more stamps Message-ID: <002d01c29ac2$669d8f50$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, I've just uploaded another 75 stamps :-) Ik heb zojuist nog 75 postzegels op de site geplakt. Cheers! Frank http://www.strahlen.org/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 3 13:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Tue Dec 3 13:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] sulvanite and quartz from Carrara quarries, Italy Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20021203221929.00e5f680@popmail.libero.it> Hi list members, Recently I had the chance to acquire some very nice specimens from the marble quarries of the Apuane Alps, Carrara, Italy. Among these there are quartz crystals up to 2 cm, waterclear and perfect, and one specimen of the rare sulvanite. This last is a 2 mm, perfect crystal on marble matrix. Those interested can reach me offlist at: italianminerals@libero.it Best regards, Alessandro ============================= Italian Minerals http://www.italianminerals.com ============================= From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 4 15:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Green/Robin Lyn Green) Date: Wed Dec 4 15:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [The Rockhounds List] Re: Lakeside Lapidary Message-ID: <001b01c29beb$c8d33560$9600000a@alltel.net> ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Noel Rowe=20 To: RockhoundsList@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:16 PM Subject: [The Rockhounds List] Re: Lakeside Lapidary Hi all, I'm hoping somebody will be able to help me locate an email address. I need to get in contact with Mr. Sid Leahy of Lakeside Lapidary in Chehalis Wa. I know he is a member of one of the lapidary related lists & am hoping either he or someone who knows him can help. Thanks, Noel Rough To Cut http://www.roughtocut.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To access the Rockhounds List and member controls via the WWW: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RockhoundsList Keep on rock'n!=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 5 01:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Dec 5 01:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] stamps part-III (last one ;-) Message-ID: <003801c29c40$c0c2ff40$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, Joachim Esche has made a complete (large !, 1420 stamps) Excel-list on = minerals on stamps.=20 You can download it on: http://www.strahlen.org/ in the stamps-section. I also updated the Binntal sections, Messerbach, Lengenbach, Turtschi = and Wyssy Flue. Cheers! Frank --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 6 20:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Fri Dec 6 20:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] no e-mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have not received any e-mails from the list in two days ! Is there something wrong or did everybody just go into hibernation ? Hilmar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 6 22:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Dec 6 22:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] no e-mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206203015.021a88a0@mail.aloha.net> At 06:51 PM 12/6/2002, you wrote: >Have not received any e-mails from the list in two days ! > >Is there something wrong or did everybody just go into hibernation ? > >Hilmar It's been two days for me, too, but I received yours! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.426 / Virus Database: 239 - Release Date: 12/2/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 7 04:11:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Dec 7 04:11:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] no e-mail References: Message-ID: <006d01c29de9$f0e9f340$14a2f7a5@peggy> north carolina has been iced in since wed dec 4. we're just back on line. later barny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hilmar Krocke" To: Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:51 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] no e-mail > Have not received any e-mails from the list in two days ! > > Is there something wrong or did everybody just go into hibernation ? > > Hilmar > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 7 07:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Cathy Gaber) Date: Sat Dec 7 07:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] lara robins gallery Message-ID: <200212071529.gB7FTH207412@mail.his.com> Does anyone know of a website for the Lara Robins Gallery in Richmond? Thanks, Cathy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 7 14:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright) Date: Sat Dec 7 14:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] no e-mail References: Message-ID: <001d01c29e3f$84bcf720$e9b2950c@mel> Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z Z From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 8 10:07:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Sun Dec 8 10:07:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] no e-mail References: Message-ID: <3DF38D01.19C9@rcn.com> HELLO I THINK SOMEONE SAID IT WAS 'CAUSE OF ICE..... GeorgiaO __..--..__..--..__ Hilmar Krocke wrote: > > Have not received any e-mails from the list in two days ! > > Is there something wrong or did everybody just go into hibernation ? > > Hilmar > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 9 16:59:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (THOMAS BOWERS) Date: Mon Dec 9 16:59:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115180301.0219a550@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: Load the volcano with baking soda and pour in vinegar. You will get a foaming overflow. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING > > >For teaching materials on volcanos go to > >http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html > > > >I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub > >scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This > >makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of time. > > > >Good luck! > > > >Nate Martin > > > That's a neat site. Thanks for the tip. > > But I wish they had some "lava flow" recipes. I imagine there are many > around. I once observed a kindergarten class where the kids had previously > made a volcano out of clay, and there was a "crater" depression in the > top. The teacher had a small pitcher of some liquid from which she poured > a small amount into the "crater," and then she poured some other liquid > into that...maybe vinegar?...and it foamed and flowed down the volcano to > the great delight of the kids. > > Any simple chemistry ideas out there? > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 04:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 10 04:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING Message-ID: <127.1c938326.2b27310d@aol.com> You could use a syringe (without a needle) or a plastic flexible container to squeeze Karo syrup mixed with red food coloring through aquarium hose to produce some really realistic lava flows - just hot glue the tubing to the underside of the volcano pointing out a previousing made hole. Clyde --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 05:15:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 10 05:15:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] lara robins gallery Message-ID: <1bd.171bb1c9.2b2742b2@aol.com> Cathy, I searched in the AOL yellow pages under Richmond, VA. Museums and found the Lora Robins Gallery of Designs from Nature. No web site listed but you might call them at 804-289-8237. They are located in the University of Richmond's Boatwright Library, 23173 College Drive, Richmond, VA. 23221. Never been there yet but I've heard it's a very nice place to visit. Dave > > Does anyone know of a website for the Lara Robins Gallery in Richmond? > > Thanks, Cathy > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 07:05:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Tue Dec 10 07:05:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING In-Reply-To: <127.1c938326.2b27310d@aol.com> Message-ID: FWIW, I was at Fry's Electronics this weekend, picking up a new laptop HD, and saw that they offer a "Build Your Own Volcano" kit. It was relatively inexpensive ($20, I think....) and looked pretty cool. I may go back and pick it up, as a reference, just to see if it's any good. Pretty sure I've seen similar things in the Discovery Channel / PBS stores too. Sure, it's not as fun as making your own, tho. afox > You could use a syringe (without a needle) or a plastic flexible container to > squeeze Karo syrup mixed with red food coloring through aquarium hose to > produce some really realistic lava flows - just hot glue the tubing to the > underside of the volcano pointing out a previousing made hole. > > > Clyde > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > -- afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request "Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..." From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 11:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Tue Dec 10 11:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - Ebay items Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021210201609.007b0980@popmail.libero.it> Hi there, new Ebay items ! some benitoite, neptunite, melanophlogite and anthymonite to see on ebay ! Visit us at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid =italianminerals or goto: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com Regards and have fun !!! ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 12:25:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans) Date: Tue Dec 10 12:25:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: Message-ID: <009601c2a089$4d248d40$e5ed76d5@pandora.be> Hi all, Traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time... To quote a very knowledgeable and great mineral dealer: "I am discontinuing private collecting because I feel it puts me in competition with my customers for the best pieces." Must this always be true? Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? Why (not) ? What is your opinion as a mineral dealer or a mineral collector (or both) on this dilemma ? Sincerely, Herwig Herwig Pelckmans Worldwide Mineral Collector Cardijnstraat 12 B-3530 Helchteren Belgium Europe http://www.xlizd.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 12:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Tue Dec 10 12:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] test Message-ID: <3DF655E6.596A@rcn.com> Hi Just a test Thankzzz. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 13:05:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (LAWRENCE L. DEE) Date: Tue Dec 10 13:05:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Mohave desert area References: Message-ID: <002b01c2a08f$ed18fb00$82a1bb3f@n7y7z7> Does anyone have any recent information on xl or fossil collecting in the Mohave Desert area? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 13:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT) Date: Tue Dec 10 13:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Making A Trip West Message-ID: Greetings folks, Myself and lovely wife are going to spend the week of and the week after Christmas making a trek from Houston, up through AZ into lower Utah across into CO and back down to TX. Although this is more of a sightseeing trip then collecting trip I would sure hate to miss any neat collecting sites along the way. If anyone would be willing to share any information we sure would be appreciative. We would like to see the relatively new caverns in AZ and possibly collect geodes and trilobites in Utah ( if we don't have to dig thru frozen ground ). Stay warm... Bill Bill Meyer KRATON(tm) Liquid Polymers Westhollow Technology Center 3333 Hwy. 6 South Room CR-132 Houston, TX 77082 telephone 281-544-7359 fax 281-544-8773 email bill.meyer@kraton.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 13:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 10 13:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? In-Reply-To: <009601c2a089$4d248d40$e5ed76d5@pandora.be> References: Message-ID: Hi Herwig, I believe the point of his statement is true. To me, it seems obvious. However, I don't see it as a problem unless the dealer makes it one. If the dealer is selling: "the specimens I have available at this time," and is honest if a prospective buyer asks if he kept one for himself (or if others have chosen from the lot previously), where's the problem? Everything is up front and honest. If the dealer makes a statement like, "These are the best specimens from the pocket!" after taking out the best for himself, then it is dishonest. Most mineral collectors don't (or at least shouldn't) believe they have seen and had the opportunity to buy the best pieces unless they are on a dealer's "first call" list because they typically buy the best. Only one person can get the best, if there is an obvious absolute "best," or a few the best, if there are several. It doesn't make any difference in the end to everyone who comes "second" if the dealer took the best, or the customer(s) he notifies first got the best. Regards, Lanny >Hi all, > >Traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been >sitting on for some time... > >To quote a very knowledgeable and great mineral dealer: >"I am discontinuing private collecting because I feel it puts me in >competition with my customers for the best pieces." >Must this always be true? Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the >same time? Why (not) ? >What is your opinion as a mineral dealer or a mineral collector (or both) on >this dilemma ? > >Sincerely, Herwig > >Herwig Pelckmans >Worldwide Mineral Collector >Cardijnstraat 12 >B-3530 Helchteren >Belgium Europe >http://www.xlizd.com > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 13:28:40 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Tue Dec 10 13:28:40 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? Message-ID: A few quick thoughts on this, unedited from my so-called mind: I see nothing wrong, IN THEORY, with a mineral dealer being a collector as well. Many are, and many of those are successful dealers with a faithful customer base because they practice good business ethics: they offer good minerals at fair prices, and they treat their customers with courtesy and respect. The dealer-collector problem arises most often at the "high end" of collecting, among the well-heeled who are trying to assemble collections based mostly on aesthetics. When you can afford to spend $20,000 on a superb phosphophyllite crystal group you don't want to know that the dealer you bought it from has a better one in his living room. For most of us that is not a problem; what harm is there in a dealer retaining a specimen you can't afford anyway? In truth, however, it's not easy to make a living as a mineral dealer, and many of my dealer friends who wish to build collections cannot--they must sell their finest pieces to keep the business afloat. In the mainstream levels of collecting (say, for specimens of $200 on down), problems can also arise when a dealer is a mineral hog--that is, when he or she retains ALL the good stuff and expects customers to buy the leavings. I once knew, long ago, a collector who retained not only the best piece from every find, but the best FLAT or two. We as collectors soon tire of that and migrate to other dealers. There is little more off-putting than knowing that dealer X is so tight with minerals that nothing truly fine will ever be put on the sales table. On the other hand, dealer-collector problems are minimized when the dealer has a focused collection--say, the minerals of one locality, or one species, or one mineral group. With a focused collection the dealer is free to sell the very best specimens of all minerals that do not fit his or her chosen category, thereby keeping the customers happy and always on the lookout for the next "great rock". Many dealers I know have such collections, and I see nothing wrong with that. We must also acknowledge that some people become dealers, if only part-time, out of necessity. In the quest for minerals one is occasionally given an opportunity to purchase an entire collection. Sometimes the only way to obtain a coveted specimen is to purchase the collection that contains it. The rest must be sold, so now the collector becomes a dealer. Many of us prefer to avoid the selling end of things, but we can't, not unless we are willing to give up some good opportunities for collection-building. Thus we wear both hats, sometimes simultaneously. Cheers- Earl Verbeek - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >From: "herwig pelckmans" >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: >Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the >same time? >Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:18:27 +0100 > >Hi all, > >Traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been >sitting on for some time... > >To quote a very knowledgeable and great mineral dealer: >"I am discontinuing private collecting because I feel it puts me in >competition with my customers for the best pieces." >Must this always be true? Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at >the >same time? Why (not) ? >What is your opinion as a mineral dealer or a mineral collector (or both) >on >this dilemma ? > >Sincerely, Herwig > >Herwig Pelckmans >Worldwide Mineral Collector >Cardijnstraat 12 >B-3530 Helchteren >Belgium Europe >http://www.xlizd.com > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 13:41:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 10 13:41:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] test References: <3DF655E6.596A@rcn.com> Message-ID: <001401c2a096$427fb740$c89e77d5@pandora.be> | Hi | Just a test | Thankzzz. It workzzzzz. Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 13:54:48 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Tue Dec 10 13:54:48 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? In-Reply-To: <009601c2a089$4d248d40$e5ed76d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: As some of you know I am a pure systematic collector, and sell occasionally. I try to pay the specimens that make it to my own collection by selling the surplus, meaning that usually I buy several specimens of a species to be able to have one or two (the best, of course) for my own collection "for free". So my collection as such should be more or less "self-supporting" (NOT including operating cost, such as traveling, postage, literature, lodging, entrance fees, society/club contributions, photos, equipment...). That system works quite well, BUT... wenn a collector sells... 1) I will never have the very best specimen on my table at a show... it is in my own collection (disadvantage for the buyer). 2) Sometimes I keep too many specimens (or most, or even all of them) for my own. That means that I get in trouble with my wife. I am in the red figures constantly since 10-20 years (at least she got used to it, and does not charge me interest). 3) I have a tendency to buy a lot of a specific mineral rather than one or two pieces when I find some goodies in it for my own collection ; sometimes after all I realise that I paid too much for what I sell later. A good trick is to eliminate in your mind the two best specimens of the lot, and to evaluate in that condition wether the lot is still worth it's price. 4) An advantage is that by selling you learn how pricing of specimens works, and that knowledge is usefull in purchasing too. 5) It's also beneficial that you can constantly improve the quality of the collection, because there is a way to sell surplus specimens and you're used to do that. Someone who never sells something can either not improve his specimens gradually or gets a many unneeded duplicate specimens after some time. 6) Sometimes at a show I am honestly not happy when a customer buys a good specimen for which I have a specific affection. It really happens regularly ! 7) I think that a dealer who collects also will put more energy in learning a lot about his "stuff". I think I would never be able to be a mineral dealer without collecting minerals. A shoe seller probably has no big affection for shoes... but the difference is that every mineral specimen is unique... it's like selling a piece of (he)art or.. Just a few thoughts. Nothing can be generalised ! Best regards, Rik -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of herwig pelckmans Sent: 10 December, 2002 9:18 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? Hi all, Traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time... To quote a very knowledgeable and great mineral dealer: "I am discontinuing private collecting because I feel it puts me in competition with my customers for the best pieces." Must this always be true? Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? Why (not) ? What is your opinion as a mineral dealer or a mineral collector (or both) on this dilemma ? Sincerely, Herwig Herwig Pelckmans Worldwide Mineral Collector Cardijnstraat 12 B-3530 Helchteren Belgium Europe http://www.xlizd.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 14:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 10 14:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: Message-ID: <000d01c2a09c$d8a48c40$c89e77d5@pandora.be> Spoken as a true hunter-collector, Rik 8>D | 6) Sometimes at a show I am honestly not happy when a customer buys a good | specimen for which I have a specific affection. It really happens regularly I'm still very font of that severely underpriced scheelite crystal you sold me two years ago... does that specimen still haunt you in your dreams? Just a general observation: REAL mainstream (or is that mid-class?) collectors that also deal in minerals tend to have more affordable specimens. After reading what Earl wrote that seems to be the same in Belgium and the USA. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Dillen" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? | As some of you know I am a pure systematic collector, and sell occasionally. | I try to pay the specimens that make it to my own collection by selling the | surplus, meaning that usually I buy several specimens of a species to be | able to have one or two (the best, of course) for my own collection "for | free". So my collection as such should be more or less "self-supporting" | (NOT including operating cost, such as traveling, postage, literature, | lodging, entrance fees, society/club contributions, photos, equipment...). | That system works quite well, BUT... wenn a collector sells... | | 1) I will never have the very best specimen on my table at a show... it is | in my own collection (disadvantage for the buyer). | 2) Sometimes I keep too many specimens (or most, or even all of them) for my | own. That means that I get in trouble with my wife. I am in the red figures | constantly since 10-20 years (at least she got used to it, and does not | charge me interest). | 3) I have a tendency to buy a lot of a specific mineral rather than one or | two pieces when I find some goodies in it for my own collection ; sometimes | after all I realise that I paid too much for what I sell later. A good trick | is to eliminate in your mind the two best specimens of the lot, and to | evaluate in that condition wether the lot is still worth it's price. | 4) An advantage is that by selling you learn how pricing of specimens works, | and that knowledge is usefull in purchasing too. | 5) It's also beneficial that you can constantly improve the quality of the | collection, because there is a way to sell surplus specimens and you're used | to do that. Someone who never sells something can either not improve his | specimens gradually or gets a many unneeded duplicate specimens after some | time. | 6) Sometimes at a show I am honestly not happy when a customer buys a good | specimen for which I have a specific affection. It really happens regularly | ! | 7) I think that a dealer who collects also will put more energy in learning | a lot about his "stuff". | | I think I would never be able to be a mineral dealer without collecting | minerals. A shoe seller probably has no big affection for shoes... but the | difference is that every mineral specimen is unique... it's like selling a | piece of (he)art or.. | | Just a few thoughts. Nothing can be generalised ! | Best regards, | | Rik | | -----Original Message----- | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of herwig pelckmans | Sent: 10 December, 2002 9:18 PM | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com | Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the | same time? | | | Hi all, | | Traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been | sitting on for some time... | | To quote a very knowledgeable and great mineral dealer: | "I am discontinuing private collecting because I feel it puts me in | competition with my customers for the best pieces." | Must this always be true? Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the | same time? Why (not) ? | What is your opinion as a mineral dealer or a mineral collector (or both) on | this dilemma ? | | Sincerely, Herwig | | Herwig Pelckmans | Worldwide Mineral Collector | Cardijnstraat 12 | B-3530 Helchteren | Belgium Europe | http://www.xlizd.com | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 14:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 10 14:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? Message-ID: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> No matter how much I want a specimen for my own collection, I ALWAYS offer it first to my customers. If it does not sell, I then pull the item for my own collection. I do not trust a dealer (of any item) if they do not collect that item too. How could they possibly have an appreciation or understanding of the special characteristics of a specimen if they not are collectors too? A dealer that does not collect what he sells might as well be selling a commodity like hamburger. A dealer CAN collect and sell the items he/she loves. But the dealer should not hold out the best items for a personal collection. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 15:24:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Tue Dec 10 15:24:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> Message-ID: <048601c2a0a3$aeffac60$c703fea9@win98> John, Please..... I resemble this.... I do not consider myself a collector, unless the 5 unique crystals setting on the top of my computer desk that I use for show and tell rather than sell, makes me a collector. I have tons of quartz crystals from our mines setting all over the place for sale and they are not hamburger. I don't know anything about geology or minerals other than Arkansas quartz crystals. I get my thrill by cleaning crystals and seeing the beauty of the finished product....but then I put a price tag on them an offer them to the rest of the world. Guess I'm doing exactly what you are doing: "No matter how much I want a specimen for my own collection, I ALWAYS offer it first to my customers. If it does not sell, I then pull the item for my own collection. I guess I've just got a Big collection because they haven't sold yet (smile)! With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? > No matter how much I want a specimen for my own collection, I ALWAYS offer it > first to my customers. If it does not sell, I then pull the item for my own > collection. > > I do not trust a dealer (of any item) if they do not collect that item too. > How could they possibly have an appreciation or understanding of the special > characteristics of a specimen if they not are collectors too? A dealer that > does not collect what he sells might as well be selling a commodity like > hamburger. > > A dealer CAN collect and sell the items he/she loves. But the dealer should > not hold out the best items for a personal collection. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 15:45:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Tue Dec 10 15:45:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> John, with all due respect, I'm not sure if that logic works. As I progress, I am collecting the oddest, ugliest, most bizarre pieces for analysis and disregarding show pieces. Today, you had a Moroccan vanadinite on your site for which, three years ago, I would have killed. It is a wonderful specimen and I hope it went to a good home. I looked at that beautiful photo for at least a minute, wistful that I knew I would not be purchasing it, but quite willing to pass on it. So yes, I appreciate it, I love it, and I could explain its significance to a buyer--and I could sell it. I do not, have not, and will not ever collect those onanistic Freilichian mega-specimens, but I appreciate what they are and could easily sell them for $300,000 while reciting the "greater fool theory" to myself. Do you really think a dealer must collect a certain type of mineral to know its intrinsic value? On the other hand, to agree with your concept, I have met dealers who have no apprecation for minerals at all. I have told others, "don't bother with that guy, he might as well be selling gallons of milk." Such dealers have been known to knowingly peddle mislabeled specimens, and in some cases known fakes. Some grossly exaggerate the quality, rarity, or availability of a particular specimen. It only takes a few minutes of conversation with a dealer to find out their true color. In sum, then, I suppose it is possible for a dealer to collect; but as Earl said, if they keep the finest *whole flat* or two for themselves, there is no point in buying from them. A dealer who collects what he or she sells must be honest with themselves about what they are doing, honest with their customers, and not greedy. Don Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > > I do not trust a dealer (of any item) if they do not collect that item too. > How could they possibly have an appreciation or understanding of the special > characteristics of a specimen if they not are collectors too? A dealer that > does not collect what he sells might as well be selling a commodity like > hamburger. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 10 18:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. A. Barwood) Date: Tue Dec 10 18:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> Message-ID: <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> Don H wrote: > John, with all due respect, I'm not sure if that logic works. As I > progress, I am collecting the oddest, ugliest, most bizarre pieces for > analysis and disregarding show pieces. I couldn't help but second this. As a mineralogist, my needs are often the strange, and frequently unattractive, specimen for analysis. Sadly, I've learned over the years to keep the "debris" from specimens as they are trimmed/cleaned to provide sample material that can be destroyed for analytical purposes. The megabucks specimens are very pretty, but often have about zero scientific value. Henry Barwood From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 00:15:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Wed Dec 11 00:15:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - Ebay items Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021211091353.007b2c40@popmail.libero.it> Hi there, new Ebay items ! some benitoite, neptunite, melanophlogite and anthymonite to see on ebay ! Visit us at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid =italianminerals or goto: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com Regards and have fun !!! ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 00:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Wed Dec 11 00:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> Message-ID: <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> Hi all, A very interesting philosophical discussion has developed; now to just throw my tuppence worth of opinion into the melting pot. 1) Cast your thoughts back to the time when you started collecting. Most of us were intrigued about anything we could lay our hands on, whether it be a present, finding the specimen in the field or spending a small amount of your hard-earned savings on it. As one became more experienced, one became more selective, high-graded your own collection, gave away "inferior" samples to other beginners, etc. Sometime (possibly some years) later, you had to sell some of your specimens in order to buy better ones for your own collection. What is wrong with that? Are you now a collector and dealer? 2) Let's define a dealer in its proper sense - a dealer is a person whose main source of income is the SELLING and BUYING of specimens (buying for resale). However, how many dealers initially started off as purely COLLECTORS? Probably quite a few in your circle of friends.Thus I find NOTHING wrong in a dealer also being a collector. 3) If a dealer has a strong inclination towards collecting as well, he/she SHOULD NOT be obliged to sell his/her prize specimen to anybody else, never mind the asking price. This would be interfering in an individual's privacy, which should be sacrosanct above any law,provided one operates within the laws of a country 4) I have operated within the above parameters. I consider myself a collector (and I know of many collectors who have collections much better than mine), but I operate within my means. On my various trips, I also sometimes purchase specimens at the source of supply, with the idea of reselling at a small profit - I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with that. 5) However, I detest the attitude of some collectors who try and "pressurise" you to obtain a rare specimen from one's own collection. I can relate the story of a certain Italian collectors (name withheld and also forgotten by now) who visited me some many years ago. This collector was annoyed as I did not want to part with a specimen of Stottite from Tsumeb (of which I only had this one). His argument was he had to get hold of it, the only reason being that he did not have one in his collection. We parted on a rather unsavoury note. Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. A. Barwood" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? > > > Don H wrote: > > > John, with all due respect, I'm not sure if that logic works. As I > > progress, I am collecting the oddest, ugliest, most bizarre pieces for > > analysis and disregarding show pieces. > > I couldn't help but second this. As a mineralogist, my needs are often the > strange, and frequently unattractive, specimen for analysis. Sadly, I've learned > over the years to keep the "debris" from specimens as they are trimmed/cleaned to > provide sample material that can be destroyed for analytical purposes. The > megabucks specimens are very pretty, but often have about zero scientific value. > > Henry Barwood > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 02:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Dec 11 02:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? Message-ID: I guess in my own case, fossils, I treat myself to a nice piece occasionally, recognizing that I cannot keep all the good specimens, or even all the best ones, as it is simply not economically feasible to do so. I see nothing wrong with this approach. There are still many items I offer for sale that I do not have in my collection. I have no desire to own the ultimate collection and still find my most prized ones are the fabulous items I've managed to self collect. Or that I bought unprepped and made fabulous looking through my own time and skill. That doesn't mean that I cannot fall in love with a specimen. And if I do and I acquire it for myself only to subsequently fall out of love, I can sell it..... making that divorce profitible, or at least cash positive. Gene Hartstein --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 06:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Dec 11 06:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <001b01c2a11f$e14eef60$2b5204d0@jim> Horst, I'm not sure your definition of a dealer holds water. I suspect that the vast majority of dealers have another source of income. Many do shows on weekends, while holding down a regular job during the week. In my case, I don't do anything else, but I certainly can't live on what I make as a dealer, either. Thank God for old-age pensions! I was a collectoe for about 50 years before becoming a dealer, and still regard myself as mainly a collector. I wonder how knowledgeable a dealer could be if he were not also a collector. I've always felt that to be really good at something, you have to enjoy it. If you enjoy minerals, you will almost certainly be a collector. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.sauktown.com sauktown@adsnet.com or orders@sauktown.com ----- Original Message ----- From: horstwindisch To: Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:56 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? > Hi all, > > A very interesting philosophical discussion has developed; now to just throw > my tuppence worth of opinion into the melting pot. > > 1) Cast your thoughts back to the time when you started collecting. Most of > us were intrigued about anything we could lay our hands on, whether it be a > present, finding the specimen in the field or spending a small amount of > your hard-earned savings on it. As one became more experienced, one became > more selective, high-graded your own collection, gave away "inferior" > samples to other beginners, etc. Sometime (possibly some years) later, you > had to sell some of your specimens in order to buy better ones for your own > collection. What is wrong with that? Are you now a collector and dealer? > > 2) Let's define a dealer in its proper sense - a dealer is a person whose > main source of income is the SELLING and BUYING of specimens (buying for > resale). However, how many dealers initially started off as purely > COLLECTORS? Probably quite a few in your circle of friends.Thus I find > NOTHING wrong in a dealer also being a collector. > > 3) If a dealer has a strong inclination towards collecting as well, he/she > SHOULD NOT be obliged to sell his/her prize specimen to anybody else, never > mind the asking price. This would be interfering in an individual's privacy, > which should be sacrosanct above any law,provided one operates within the > laws of a country > > 4) I have operated within the above parameters. I consider myself a > collector (and I know of many collectors who have collections much better > than mine), but I operate within my means. On my various trips, I also > sometimes purchase specimens at the source of supply, with the idea of > reselling at a small profit - I am of the opinion that there is nothing > wrong with that. > > 5) However, I detest the attitude of some collectors who try and > "pressurise" you to obtain a rare specimen from one's own collection. I can > relate the story of a certain Italian collectors (name withheld and also > forgotten by now) who visited me some many years ago. This collector was > annoyed as I did not want to part with a specimen of Stottite from Tsumeb > (of which I only had this one). His argument was he had to get hold of it, > the only reason being that he did not have one in his collection. We parted > on a rather unsavoury note. > > Horst > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J. A. Barwood" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 3:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the > same time? > > > > > > > > Don H wrote: > > > > > John, with all due respect, I'm not sure if that logic works. As I > > > progress, I am collecting the oddest, ugliest, most bizarre pieces for > > > analysis and disregarding show pieces. > > > > I couldn't help but second this. As a mineralogist, my needs are often the > > strange, and frequently unattractive, specimen for analysis. Sadly, I've > learned > > over the years to keep the "debris" from specimens as they are > trimmed/cleaned to > > provide sample material that can be destroyed for analytical purposes. The > > megabucks specimens are very pretty, but often have about zero scientific > value. > > > > Henry Barwood > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 08:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Wed Dec 11 08:12:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? References: <009601c2a089$4d248d40$e5ed76d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <003b01c2a130$3626a680$4c06efd1@oemcomputer> Perhaps the question is actually whether a mineral dealer can _not_ be a collector. If you're not truly obsessed with mineralogy, why bother? You'd truly be better off selling just about any mindless mass-produced geegaw over minerals. Get into french fries for example: buy 'em for thirty cents a pound and sell them for eight dollars a pound... much more profitable and the whole world is your market... there are many easier ways to make a living! I sell minerals because there's nothing else I want to do, and nothing else that I'm as good at. I collect minerals because I have no choice, it's my obsession. It helps that my tastes have matured to the point that I like specimens that 95% of collectors have no use for. And if the other 5% drop by and want one of my favorites, well, we can probably work something out. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "herwig pelckmans" To: Sent: December 10, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? > Hi all, > > Traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been > sitting on for some time... > > To quote a very knowledgeable and great mineral dealer: > "I am discontinuing private collecting because I feel it puts me in > competition with my customers for the best pieces." > Must this always be true? Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the > same time? Why (not) ? > What is your opinion as a mineral dealer or a mineral collector (or both) on > this dilemma ? > > Sincerely, Herwig > > Herwig Pelckmans > Worldwide Mineral Collector > Cardijnstraat 12 > B-3530 Helchteren > Belgium Europe > http://www.xlizd.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 16:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (LAWRENCE L. DEE) Date: Wed Dec 11 16:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <001c01c2a171$f01b69e0$bc50bb3f@n7y7z7> Is anyone familiar with the green glass that the lapidaries are faceting - said to be from Oregon? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 16:53:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Dec 11 16:53:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> <001c01c2a171$f01b69e0$bc50bb3f@n7y7z7> Message-ID: <002101c2a178$bd74efa0$84cb94d1@remains> supposed to be (fused?) Mt. St. Helen's ash....something like that ----- Original Message ----- From: "LAWRENCE L. DEE" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:03 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass > Is anyone familiar with the green glass that the lapidaries are faceting - > said to be from Oregon? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 17:08:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (LAWRENCE L. DEE) Date: Wed Dec 11 17:08:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> <001c01c2a171$f01b69e0$bc50bb3f@n7y7z7> <002101c2a178$bd74efa0$84cb94d1@remains> Message-ID: <000501c2a17a$acf95a60$53b1bb3f@n7y7z7> I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a beautiful transparent green. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 17:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Hewitt) Date: Wed Dec 11 17:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> <001c01c2a171$f01b69e0$bc50bb3f@n7y7z7> <002101c2a178$bd74efa0$84cb94d1@remains> <000501c2a17a$acf95a60$53b1bb3f@n7y7z7> Message-ID: <013b01c2a17b$735c66c0$0201a8c0@bigmama> I would be interested in purchasing some of that green glass if someone has some they are willing to part with. Paul in South Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "LAWRENCE L. DEE" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass > I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a > beautiful transparent green. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 18:11:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Dec 11 18:11:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass In-Reply-To: <000501c2a17a$acf95a60$53b1bb3f@n7y7z7> Message-ID: I thought this stuff was mentioned on list as being man-made material. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a > beautiful transparent green. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 20:00:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Dec 11 20:00:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass Message-ID: <170.18664785.2b29638d@aol.com> What you are referring to is call Mt. St. Helen's Emerald. (not real emerald) As I understand it, it does have trace amounts of ash in it - just enough to make the claim. Faceted pieces of it are very common at Pike's Market (tourist must see) in Seattle, usually $20-30 set in cheap gold colored rings for the tourists. There are some facet rough dealers who carry it though I haven't seen any in a couple of years. Mostly because few dealers bring synthetics to the shows around here lately. You have to watch for air bubbles while cutting. The material, being man made glass, is only a hardness of 5 and is easily damaged in anything more than a pendant. The same manufacturers made a blue/green material that's fairly pretty also. I think the called it SeaMist Green or some such thing. As far as better substitutes, find a dealer who carries some of the old Russian synthetic green quartz. Hardness of 7, slightly better RI and just as good on color. Bottom line though, if you are really in to faceting, get real minerals. By the time you spend 2 hours cutting a stone on a $1000-10,000 machine, it's nice to have something worth more than 75 cents. Chrome Diopside has a very nice green color, isn't ridiculously priced if you shop around and is worth something once you cut it. Same with green tourmaline. Hope this helps and pardon my biased opinions. I do own a few pieces of rough - somewhere. Dan lapidry@aol.com In a message dated 12/11/2002 9:43:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, pbhewitt@comcast.net writes: > I would be interested in purchasing some of that green glass if someone has > some they are willing to part with. > > Paul in South Jersey > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LAWRENCE L. DEE" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass > > > >I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a > >beautiful transparent green. > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 20:04:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Dec 11 20:04:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass Message-ID: <23.28d5f894.2b29648b@aol.com> A year or two ago, I purchased a few faceted "helenite" stones on eBay from a dealer in Louisiana. The accompanying literature explained that they were fused ash from Mount St. Helens. The ones I bought were beautiful green, but red ones were also available and possibly another color or two as well. Ed DeWindt-Robson --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 20:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Cathy Gaber) Date: Wed Dec 11 20:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass Message-ID: <200212120408.gBC48Cg04525@mail.his.com> Lapidary Journal had an article about the Mt. St. Helens glass. Issue 88:07:41. Cathy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 22:27:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Wed Dec 11 22:27:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Can a mineral dealer be a mineral collector at the same time? In-Reply-To: <003b01c2a130$3626a680$4c06efd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <6FBED0AB-0D9A-11D7-A403-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> I resemble this statement! KM On Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002, at 08:13 US/Pacific, Tim Jokela wrote: > I collect minerals because I have no choice, it's my > obsession. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 22:59:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 11 22:59:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass References: <91.274d9f3d.2b27ca64@aol.com> <3DF67D2D.B769020E@att.net> <3DF699D4.AB5818B6@bluemarble.net> <002701c2a0ec$e5355980$d23d27c4@horstspc> <001c01c2a171$f01b69e0$bc50bb3f@n7y7z7> <002101c2a178$bd74efa0$84cb94d1@remains> <000501c2a17a$acf95a60$53b1bb3f@n7y7z7> <013b01c2a17b$735c66c0$0201a8c0@bigmama> Message-ID: <3DF833A0.3837@Tomaszewski.net> Me too! Please contact me offline if you have some. Paul Hewitt wrote: > > I would be interested in purchasing some of that green glass if someone has > some they are willing to part with. > > Paul in South Jersey > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "LAWRENCE L. DEE" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:06 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass > > > I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a > > beautiful transparent green. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 11 23:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Wed Dec 11 23:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass In-Reply-To: <000501c2a17a$acf95a60$53b1bb3f@n7y7z7> Message-ID: <72183522-0D9F-11D7-A403-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> i have a wonderful piece of milky green obsidian fro an 'undisclosed' location near hines, oregon, that was given to me by the fella the currently has the claim. i met another guy that used to have it but he wouldn't tell me where it was, i think its northwest of hines, oregon. KM On Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002, at 17:06 US/Pacific, LAWRENCE L. DEE wrote: > I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a > beautiful transparent green From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 03:29:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Dec 12 03:29:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass References: <170.18664785.2b29638d@aol.com> Message-ID: <005801c2a1d3$28b4bca0$14ae77d5@pandora.be> My son is into gem collecting and somebody gave him a tumbled stone that is fits the description of the "Oregon obsidian" except for the color. It looks and feels like glass and is optically isotropic. The color is very light, almost aquamarine, blue and there is a slight haze or "mist". The person from whom he got it said that it came from Italy. Just like glass it fluoresces a greenish brown color under short wave UV. I think it's glass but I'm no sure. Anyone heard of that? Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:59 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass | What you are referring to is call Mt. St. Helen's Emerald. (not real emerald) | As I understand it, it does have trace amounts of ash in it - just enough to | make the claim. Faceted pieces of it are very common at Pike's Market | (tourist must see) in Seattle, usually $20-30 set in cheap gold colored rings | for the tourists. There are some facet rough dealers who carry it though I | haven't seen any in a couple of years. Mostly because few dealers bring | synthetics to the shows around here lately. You have to watch for air bubbles | while cutting. The material, being man made glass, is only a hardness of 5 | and is easily damaged in anything more than a pendant. The same manufacturers | made a blue/green material that's fairly pretty also. I think the called it | SeaMist Green or some such thing. | | As far as better substitutes, find a dealer who carries some of the old | Russian synthetic green quartz. Hardness of 7, slightly better RI and just as | good on color. | | Bottom line though, if you are really in to faceting, get real minerals. By | the time you spend 2 hours cutting a stone on a $1000-10,000 machine, it's | nice to have something worth more than 75 cents. Chrome Diopside has a very | nice green color, isn't ridiculously priced if you shop around and is worth | something once you cut it. Same with green tourmaline. | | Hope this helps and pardon my biased opinions. I do own a few pieces of rough | - somewhere. | | Dan | lapidry@aol.com | | In a message dated 12/11/2002 9:43:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, | pbhewitt@comcast.net writes: | | > I would be interested in purchasing some of that green glass if someone has | > some they are willing to part with. | > | > Paul in South Jersey | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "LAWRENCE L. DEE" | > To: | > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 8:06 PM | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: green glass | > | > | > >I suspect it is volcanic glass being from Oregon - green obsidian but a | > >beautiful transparent green. | > > | > > | > >_______________________________________________ | > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > >Subscription Services: | > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 07:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Thu Dec 12 07:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Hi All,=20 =20 A few days ago, Herwig remarked that "traffic on the list is rather = slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time." = This has resulted in quite an interesting discussion going on whether a = mineral dealer can also be a collector (or vice versa). However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has = been worrying me for more than e decade now. I have had discussions on = the topic with collectors and museum curators, but everybody has = divergent views on the subject of"locality". Let me state my problem. = Take an azurite specimen from Tsumeb as an example. In the eighties, = this country was called "South West Africa", then when it became = independent, the name was changed to "Namibia". I am pretty sure that = there are still azurites from Tsumeb in collections, with the label = stating "South West Africa". More modern labels will state "Namibia". = Now you want to update (or compile) a catalogue of your collection. = Which country on the label do you use? We are living in rapidly changing times - countries. states, towns, = mountains, lakes etc are being renamed practically daily. How is the = normal mineral collector supposed to stay up with these changes? In = 1993, South Africa had four provinces, viz, Cape Province, Natal, Orange = Free State and Transvaal. When we got a new government in 1994 (after = Nelson Mandela was released from prison), we soon afterwards had NINE = provinces. In the meantime, one of these have just been renamed this = year - Northern Province became Limpopo, and a lot of localities in this = province changed the names of their towns (which are of interest to = mineral collectors). Two examples - Messina (known for its ajoite and = papagoite in quartz) is now Musina, Phalaborwa is now Ba-Phalaborwa, and = I could quote many more. Names are being changed at such a rate that the = map publishers and the Government Printer (responsible for topo and = geological maps) cannot keep pace with these changes. (This can lead to = a lot of confusion amongst dealers who are not familiar with this = country).=20 A few years ago, I put out a public offer to mineral collectors (at = US$1,00 per letter), to bring mineral localities up to date for = collectors in overseas countries who have South African minerals in = their collection (to advise them of the new provinces from which their = minerals came). I only had ONE request, so judging from that, mineral = collectors DO NOT place a great value on the correctness of their = labels, however, one of the first "commandments" one learns as a serious = mineral collector is that a specimen's value is decreased quite a bit = without a proper label (mineral identification and locality) . When visiting overseas mineral museums, I pay particular attention to = minerals from South Africa (where I reside) and Namibia (where I was = born), w.r.t. the correct spelling of their locality. I make notes of = these errors and then pass them on to the museum curator/staff for their = attention (if they so wish to correct the labels). I have done this both = in the Los Angeles and Harvard (Boston) museum. (An incident relating to = the Smithsonian will be reported on later during this discussion). Another case in point is the breaking up of the USSR into I don't know = how many separate republics. Which mineral collector has tried to update = his/her collection of Russian minerals, since the demise of the USSR? = (Most of us don't know even how to spell these new names, without the = aid of an up-to-date atlas, and who is able to locate an obscure mining = district in that vast country and place it in the correct context? Thus, my question is, what to do with this ever-increasing "problem"? = All views would be appreciated. Horst=20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 07:51:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Thu Dec 12 07:51:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <00f001c2a1f6$d0f5ed80$c703fea9@win98> Would dating the name of the specimen location be enough to define the origin based on history? like "1993, South Africa, Orange Free State" I like to keep things simple! With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 08:24:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Dec 12 08:24:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <00bc01c2a1fc$26dacfe0$14ae77d5@pandora.be> Hi Horst, Oh, we do live wormy times my friends... anybody got a can of fleas, spiders or other crawly critters? 8>p I ran across the same problem some time ago and this is how I see the solution to it: If you always use the "latest" country name, the specimen may loose some of it's "historic" value. So, to my taste you should always make some reference to the original name. In 20 years people may have forgotten what Rhodesia was. I solved the issue like this: If you want emphasis on the actual name, out it in front of the old name: Corundum Priler, Republic of Macedonia (former Rep. of Yugoslavia) or the other way around, if you want to preserve the original name: Cuprite Mashamba, Shaba, Belgian Congo (later: Zaire, now: Rep. of Congo) It would require an extra line on your labels but it puts your specimens in their historic context. Best Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "horstwindisch" To: "rockhounds" Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Hi All, A few days ago, Herwig remarked that "traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time." This has resulted in quite an interesting discussion going on whether a mineral dealer can also be a collector (or vice versa). However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has been worrying me for more than e decade now. I have had discussions on the topic with collectors and museum curators, but everybody has divergent views on the subject of"locality". Let me state my problem. Take an azurite specimen from Tsumeb as an example. In the eighties, this country was called "South West Africa", then when it became independent, the name was changed to "Namibia". I am pretty sure that there are still azurites from Tsumeb in collections, with the label stating "South West Africa". More modern labels will state "Namibia". Now you want to update (or compile) a catalogue of your collection. Which country on the label do you use? We are living in rapidly changing times - countries. states, towns, mountains, lakes etc are being renamed practically daily. How is the normal mineral collector supposed to stay up with these changes? In 1993, South Africa had four provinces, viz, Cape Province, Natal, Orange Free State and Transvaal. When we got a new government in 1994 (after Nelson Mandela was released from prison), we soon afterwards had NINE provinces. In the meantime, one of these have just been renamed this year - Northern Province became Limpopo, and a lot of localities in this province changed the names of their towns (which are of interest to mineral collectors). Two examples - Messina (known for its ajoite and papagoite in quartz) is now Musina, Phalaborwa is now Ba-Phalaborwa, and I could quote many more. Names are being changed at such a rate that the map publishers and the Government Printer (responsible for topo and geological maps) cannot keep pace with these changes. (This can lead to a lot of confusion amongst dealers who are not familiar with this country). A few years ago, I put out a public offer to mineral collectors (at US$1,00 per letter), to bring mineral localities up to date for collectors in overseas countries who have South African minerals in their collection (to advise them of the new provinces from which their minerals came). I only had ONE request, so judging from that, mineral collectors DO NOT place a great value on the correctness of their labels, however, one of the first "commandments" one learns as a serious mineral collector is that a specimen's value is decreased quite a bit without a proper label (mineral identification and locality) . When visiting overseas mineral museums, I pay particular attention to minerals from South Africa (where I reside) and Namibia (where I was born), w.r.t. the correct spelling of their locality. I make notes of these errors and then pass them on to the museum curator/staff for their attention (if they so wish to correct the labels). I have done this both in the Los Angeles and Harvard (Boston) museum. (An incident relating to the Smithsonian will be reported on later during this discussion). Another case in point is the breaking up of the USSR into I don't know how many separate republics. Which mineral collector has tried to update his/her collection of Russian minerals, since the demise of the USSR? (Most of us don't know even how to spell these new names, without the aid of an up-to-date atlas, and who is able to locate an obscure mining district in that vast country and place it in the correct context? Thus, my question is, what to do with this ever-increasing "problem"? All views would be appreciated. Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 08:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Thu Dec 12 08:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <001b01c2a1fb$bcf17840$3205efd1@oemcomputer> Unstable areas like Africa keep labelling interesting. I think the general reaction by now is something along the lines of "Gee, another dictator has renamed the country for himself, how about that." I label carrolites as being from 'Congo (formerly Zaire)', or is it the other way around now... I don't think it's much of a threat to mineralogy; the localities aren't going to be lost. Labels get outdated, collections change hands, and they're eventually updated. If you want to make a difference, Horst, you can: publish an update of African locality info in Min Rec or Mineral News. It's been done for "USSR" localities in the former; and for Bolivian localities in the latter, and both articles are a BIG help for collectors and dealers. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "horstwindisch" Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" > Hi All, > > A few days ago, Herwig remarked that "traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time." This has resulted in quite an interesting discussion going on whether a mineral dealer can also be a collector (or vice versa). > > However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has been worrying me for more than e decade now. I have had discussions on the topic with collectors and museum curators, but everybody has divergent views on the subject of"locality". Let me state my problem. Take an azurite specimen from Tsumeb as an example. In the eighties, this country was called "South West Africa", then when it became independent, the name was changed to "Namibia". I am pretty sure that there are still azurites from Tsumeb in collections, with the label stating "South West Africa". More modern labels will state "Namibia". Now you want to update (or compile) a catalogue of your collection. Which country on the label do you use? snip > Horst From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 09:33:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Thu Dec 12 09:33:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" In-Reply-To: <00f001c2a1f6$d0f5ed80$c703fea9@win98> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Stuart Schmitt Sent: 12 December, 2002 4:55 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Would dating the name of the specimen location be enough to define the origin based on history? like "1993, South Africa, Orange Free State" I like to keep things simple! >>>>> I agree with the fact that it is best to keep things simple. My opinion : any historically valuable label is, of course, kept as such with the specimen. I store all data in a database, and there it is quite simple to update country names etc. to keep them actual. As I do not exhibit any specimens (it is a quite egocentric collection :>)) except for a few, I don't have to correct labels. A label with a unique species/specimen number is attached inseparably on the specimen, and the box (mostly carton fold box or closed Jousi plastic box) has a label with the mineral name only. Of all records I have a printout for ultimate safety. So updating locality data is quite simple in my case, and can be done for the whole collection in no more than a few seconds... Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show 10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 10:10:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Thu Dec 12 10:10:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <007f01c2a209$4d0b8080$b91dbed8@powertech.net> Horst asks: However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has been worrying me for more than e decade now. Let me state my problem. Take an azurite specimen from Tsumeb as an example. In the eighties, this country was called "South West Africa", then when it became independent, the name was changed to "Namibia". I am pretty sure that there are still azurites from Tsumeb in collections, with the label stating "South West Africa". More modern labels will state "Namibia". Now you want to update (or compile) a catalogue of your collection. Which country on the label do you use? Horst How about something like "Tsumeb, Namibia (formerly South West Africa)"? this way you still have all the history. As well as some vague idea how old the specimen is. In your catalog, you could also list it under both Namibia and South West Africa. Or, if you prefer to leave it as on the original label, you can cross-reference it to Namibia. I'm a botanist, and we have a somewhat similar problem; they keep changing the names of the plants! We now have large databases that give cross-references so that you can find the "cuirrent" (and according to the current authors!) names. Margaret --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 11:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Dec 12 11:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <001501c2a215$04678020$275204d0@jim> It's my understanding that the accepted method is to name the locality as it was at the time the specimen was collected. A cross-reference to current names is, of course, desirable, and not too difficult in this age of computers. The problem, incidentally, extends to names of mines as well. Here in the US, when a mine changes ownership, it sometimes also changes name! Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.sauktown.com sauktown@adsnet.com or orders@sauktown.com ----- Original Message ----- From: horstwindisch To: rockhounds Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:26 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" > Hi All, > > A few days ago, Herwig remarked that "traffic on the list is rather slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time." This has resulted in quite an interesting discussion going on whether a mineral dealer can also be a collector (or vice versa). > > However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has been worrying me for more than e decade now. I have had discussions on the topic with collectors and museum curators, but everybody has divergent views on the subject of"locality". Let me state my problem. Take an azurite specimen from Tsumeb as an example. In the eighties, this country was called "South West Africa", then when it became independent, the name was changed to "Namibia". I am pretty sure that there are still azurites from Tsumeb in collections, with the label stating "South West Africa". More modern labels will state "Namibia". Now you want to update (or compile) a catalogue of your collection. Which country on the label do you use? > > We are living in rapidly changing times - countries. states, towns, mountains, lakes etc are being renamed practically daily. How is the normal mineral collector supposed to stay up with these changes? In 1993, South Africa had four provinces, viz, Cape Province, Natal, Orange Free State and Transvaal. When we got a new government in 1994 (after Nelson Mandela was released from prison), we soon afterwards had NINE provinces. In the meantime, one of these have just been renamed this year - Northern Province became Limpopo, and a lot of localities in this province changed the names of their towns (which are of interest to mineral collectors). Two examples - Messina (known for its ajoite and papagoite in quartz) is now Musina, Phalaborwa is now Ba-Phalaborwa, and I could quote many more. Names are being changed at such a rate that the map publishers and the Government Printer (responsible for topo and geological maps) cannot keep pace with these changes. (This can lead to a lot of confusion amongst dealers who are not familiar with this country). > > A few years ago, I put out a public offer to mineral collectors (at US$1,00 per letter), to bring mineral localities up to date for collectors in overseas countries who have South African minerals in their collection (to advise them of the new provinces from which their minerals came). I only had ONE request, so judging from that, mineral collectors DO NOT place a great value on the correctness of their labels, however, one of the first "commandments" one learns as a serious mineral collector is that a specimen's value is decreased quite a bit without a proper label (mineral identification and locality) . > > When visiting overseas mineral museums, I pay particular attention to minerals from South Africa (where I reside) and Namibia (where I was born), w.r.t. the correct spelling of their locality. I make notes of these errors and then pass them on to the museum curator/staff for their attention (if they so wish to correct the labels). I have done this both in the Los Angeles and Harvard (Boston) museum. (An incident relating to the Smithsonian will be reported on later during this discussion). > > Another case in point is the breaking up of the USSR into I don't know how many separate republics. Which mineral collector has tried to update his/her collection of Russian minerals, since the demise of the USSR? (Most of us don't know even how to spell these new names, without the aid of an up-to-date atlas, and who is able to locate an obscure mining district in that vast country and place it in the correct context? > > Thus, my question is, what to do with this ever-increasing "problem"? All views would be appreciated. > > Horst > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 14:02:03 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Dec 12 14:02:03 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" In-Reply-To: <001501c2a215$04678020$275204d0@jim> References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: I can certainly understand that with a specimen that has historical value (an old specimen from a famous find in 1890 of which the country and or mine has now changed names) keeping the old name has its value, but the more information the better. Using just the old name is for a few reasons a bad idea, the new name should also be used (as in the suggestions of "XXX Mine, now XYZ mine (or other way around)." The major reason being the possible inability to track the specimen to the present situation if only the old name is given. Generally we wouldn't think this would be much of a problem with country names, because there is historical data available, but for some people, even this could still be a problem (limited access to the right books and maps). I have no idea if my local library even has the right books to trace the history of any mine or city in what is currently known as the Czech Republic. With mine names, any search could easily lead to a dead end. Mine names often change with ownership, and this may not be documented in any easily followable paper trail. In the USA, claim names would of course be recorded, but the mine name may be different. Even when if it's the same name as the claim, for a mineral collector in Pennsylvania who has an old specimen from the XXX Mine in Idaho from 1920 who buys another specimen today that looks nearly identical, but the mine name is now XYZ, there is no easy way of checking the mine names to see if they come from the same mine. The best is of course to include old and new (and in your catalog, all intermediate names too that you know), and hope that tomorrow the name of the mine for the specimen you just cataloged today doesn't change again. Regards, Lanny >It's my understanding that the accepted method is to name the locality as it >was at the time the specimen was collected. A cross-reference to current >names is, of course, desirable, and not too difficult in this age of >computers. >The problem, incidentally, extends to names of mines as well. Here in the >US, when a mine changes ownership, it sometimes also changes name! >Jim Daly >Sauktown Sales >Microminerals and mounting supplies >http://www.sauktown.com >sauktown@adsnet.com >or orders@sauktown.com >----- Original Message ----- >From: horstwindisch >To: rockhounds >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:26 AM >Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" > > >> Hi All, >> >> A few days ago, Herwig remarked that "traffic on the list is rather slow, >so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time." This has >resulted in quite an interesting discussion going on whether a mineral >dealer can also be a collector (or vice versa). >> >> However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has been >worrying me for more than e decade now. I have had discussions on the topic >with collectors and museum curators, but everybody has divergent views on >the subject of"locality". Let me state my problem. Take an azurite specimen >from Tsumeb as an example. In the eighties, this country was called "South >West Africa", then when it became independent, the name was changed to >"Namibia". I am pretty sure that there are still azurites from Tsumeb in >collections, with the label stating "South West Africa". More modern labels >will state "Namibia". Now you want to update (or compile) a catalogue of >your collection. Which country on the label do you use? >> >> We are living in rapidly changing times - countries. states, towns, >mountains, lakes etc are being renamed practically daily. How is the normal >mineral collector supposed to stay up with these changes? In 1993, South >Africa had four provinces, viz, Cape Province, Natal, Orange Free State and >Transvaal. When we got a new government in 1994 (after Nelson Mandela was >released from prison), we soon afterwards had NINE provinces. In the >meantime, one of these have just been renamed this year - Northern Province >became Limpopo, and a lot of localities in this province changed the names >of their towns (which are of interest to mineral collectors). Two examples - >Messina (known for its ajoite and papagoite in quartz) is now Musina, >Phalaborwa is now Ba-Phalaborwa, and I could quote many more. Names are >being changed at such a rate that the map publishers and the Government >Printer (responsible for topo and geological maps) cannot keep pace with >these changes. (This can lead to a lot of confusion amongst dealers who are >not familiar with this country). >> >> A few years ago, I put out a public offer to mineral collectors (at >US$1,00 per letter), to bring mineral localities up to date for collectors >in overseas countries who have South African minerals in their collection >(to advise them of the new provinces from which their minerals came). I only >had ONE request, so judging from that, mineral collectors DO NOT place a >great value on the correctness of their labels, however, one of the first >"commandments" one learns as a serious mineral collector is that a >specimen's value is decreased quite a bit without a proper label (mineral >identification and locality) . >> >> When visiting overseas mineral museums, I pay particular attention to >minerals from South Africa (where I reside) and Namibia (where I was born), >w.r.t. the correct spelling of their locality. I make notes of these errors >and then pass them on to the museum curator/staff for their attention (if >they so wish to correct the labels). I have done this both in the Los >Angeles and Harvard (Boston) museum. (An incident relating to the >Smithsonian will be reported on later during this discussion). >> >> Another case in point is the breaking up of the USSR into I don't know how >many separate republics. Which mineral collector has tried to update his/her > collection of Russian minerals, since the demise of the USSR? (Most of us >don't know even how to spell these new names, without the aid of an >up-to-date atlas, and who is able to locate an obscure mining district in >that vast country and place it in the correct context? >> >> Thus, my question is, what to do with this ever-increasing "problem"? All >views would be appreciated. >> >> Horst >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 17:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Teague) Date: Thu Dec 12 17:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Atlanta (Norcross), Ga Show this weekend Message-ID: <3DF56F2C.8B12135F@icx.net> Greetings! I would like to remind members of the list about the Atlanta, GA show this weekend. My booth is hard to miss as I have UT orange table coverings! Dates: Friday-Sunday, December 13-15, 2002 Hours: Friday -10:00 am - 7:00 pm Saturday -10:00 am - 7:00 pm Sunday -12:00 noon - 5:00 pm Location: North Atlanta Trade Center 1700 Jeurgens Court, Norcross, Ga More information (with map) can be found at the Georgia Mineral Society site at: http://www.gamineral.org/december-show.htm Hope to see you there! Stop by and say "HI!" and introduce yourself. Maybe you'll even see something I have that you can't live without. And then I'll have more to spend on my addiction with other dealers! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 20:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 12 20:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3DF95FE6.36AC@Tomaszewski.net> Horst, Just about anything that _may_ appear on a 'label', *_except_* the location (and possibly collection date), can be determined independently. Obsolete naming can always be updated. An accurate location, at the time of collection, is the most important item of information about any specimen. Kreigh horstwindisch wrote: > > Hi All, > > A few days ago, Herwig remarked that "traffic on the list is rather > slow, so here's a "can of worms" I've been sitting on for some time." > This has resulted in quite an interesting discussion going on whether > a mineral dealer can also be a collector (or vice versa). > > However, I wish to "open another can of worms" on a subject that has > been worrying me for more than e decade now. I have had discussions > on the topic with collectors and museum curators, but everybody has > divergent views on the subject of"locality". > > Thus, my question is, what to do with this ever-increasing "problem"? All views would be appreciated. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 12 20:23:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Masters) Date: Thu Dec 12 20:23:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3DF9619F.FC55E8A2@cox.net> Lanny, Coming from the position of an observer, may I offer the following. With the advent of the Internet and lists such as these, much information previously laborious to track, can now be done with far more ease and accuracy. With schools today offering only "Social Studies" rather than History and Geography, many today have no idea of what where used to be or called. There was a time when a Library was an invaluable source of information, now Internet has supplemented that beyond prior method. I remember waiting for the yearly Encyclopedia update. Without the progression of changes listed on labels, many would have no clue at all. Thanks, Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 02:15:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Dec 13 02:15:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DF9619F.FC55E8A2@cox.net> Message-ID: <005f01c2a292$0ace1c80$fa9d77d5@pandora.be> Here's another possible approach: The first label that goes with a specimen is usually made by the person who picked or dug it up. Being almost two-dimensional, labels have a backside. Now, if that first owner was to write his full name and date of the acquisition on the backside and each successive owner did the same... You would eventually have a rock with a pedigree. I bet that if "Goethe" or "Hauyn" is among those names on he backside of the label the value of your specimen would rocket sky-high.... It sure would be helpful in terms of traceability. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 5:27 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" | Lanny, | Coming from the position of an observer, may I offer the following. With | the advent of the Internet and lists such as these, much information | previously laborious to track, can now be done with far more ease and | accuracy. | | With schools today offering only "Social Studies" rather than History | and Geography, many today have no idea of what where used to be or | called. | | There was a time when a Library was an invaluable source of information, | now Internet has supplemented that beyond prior method. I remember | waiting for the yearly Encyclopedia update. | | Without the progression of changes listed on labels, many would have no | clue at all. | Thanks, | Teresa | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 04:36:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 04:36:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Should we rush to correct labels? Message-ID: <122.1bd9aa5b.2b2b2e17@aol.com> Very good discussion, Horst. With regard to disseminating locality information, historically, the best way has been to publish hard copy and distribute it. When there are enough exceptions or the press run is exhausted, there can be a new, dated, edition. The computer software people had many running on a treadmill of the latest version of their product. If you still ran version 7.2.4a on your machines, you were considered intolerably stodgy if you didn't up-date to version 7.2.4b instantly. I've tried to participate in the "label treadmill". When I wasn't looking, Shaba, Zaire reverted to Katanga, Congo. If I hadn't been so quick to rewrite, I'd have saved the effort. I'll still stay on the treadmill, but I'm not sure that a non-up-dated label in a display is an actual error. Most exhibits have a ten year life span, some much more. University of Virginia is a museum of a museum having been set up in the late 1800's with little change since. Probably has lots of Hungary labels which should be Romania (Roumania if you're French)., not to mention the Abyssinia labels. (Aren't there folk who like these labels?) I expect that are few who are really aware of the change in geographic names except for mineral/fossil, coin, or stamp collectors - outside the local politicians. If you're exhibiting under the "uniform rules", you'd better be as up-to-date as the judges, although having been a judge at many major shows, I know that there are judges who are still wondering where good ol' South West Africa went. I'm working on a comprehensive collector's list of USA minerals currently pushing 2 million characters with about 100,000 localities. Fortunately the USA has had few name changes which have affected collectors. Mauch Chunk going to Jim Thorpe is maybe one of the best known examples in the East. Of course mine names have changed a lot and am trying to include some of the more important changes only. The Dunton pegmatite in Newry, Maine has had a dozen names already as have most of the close by quarries. Am glad that there aren't many mineral localities affected by the name change to Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. There's the apocryphal story that King County, Washington, named for governor King was renamed King County after Martin Luther King. I'd just like to be able to read a list that told me the truth about the three Transvaal provinces. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 04:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 04:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <20021213123908.BVXA20575.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> This is a problem that has been discussed often among collectors, dealers, and mineralogists. John Betts once remarked to me that "I don't care about the names, just give me latitude and longitude coordinates," or something close to that. This is a wonderful idea, and with cheap GPS available today, every collector can mark the locality of a field-collected specimen to within a known margin (whatever the margin of error on GPS is at the time; recording the date of measurement and the number of locked satellites is important). That doesn't solve the problem of what to do about locality names; names change all the way from the mine or claim right up to the country name. First, I might mention that some people are painting themselves into a corner by talking about what goes on the *label*. The *label* is not so important; it is what is in the *catalog* that matters. The contents of the label is a matter of personal taste, since the label is just a small subset of information about the specimen. The catalog should contain all known details about the specimen. This includes a NOTES section where info about changing locality names may be recorded. If folks go so far as to talk about the importance of specimen provenance, then they are certainly ready for the idea of keeping a detailed catalog. I think it is important to retain, in some fashion, the original locality name from old labels or collections, if known. For example, I have a few pieces labeled "Franklin Furnance, NJ," and even though there is no date associated, I can place the specimen before about 1920 when the name changed (yes, I realize some people used the old name after it was changed, but it still makes a good estimate baseline). Alas, much information is lost forever. My parents still have specimens labeled "Mexico" or "Brazil," since in the 1970's it was fashionable for dealers to provide large stocks of common minerals without details, and apparently that was sufficient for the average collector. Now, I think collectors are becoming more sophisticated and demanding, wanting to know specimen history, the correct transliteration of different alphabets, what mine & level, who found it, what it that little green speck on the bottom there, etc. Without detailed destructive analysis, I will never know from where exactly that "adamite, Mexico" came, but from now on, we can all make sure we record as much of this detailed information as we are able to do. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 04:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 04:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <168.187a8e9f.2b2b2f71@aol.com> Very good, but there was not yet a discovery of significant, if any, Mashamba cuprite when it was still the Belgian Congo. The discovery is barely fifteen years old. Possibly older in some geologist's notebook. Production of these goodies was highest in the 1990's. Now the wonderful and astonishing ol' time cuprites from Likasi and Lubumbashi are another story. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 04:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 04:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <20021213124622.GVDK9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> Don't forget, though, that the Internet should be a starting point and not an end point for research. In the short time I have been collecting, I find it frustrating to see so much invalidated, and sometimes contradictory data on the net. There are a number of official-looking sites with detailed data, and the best of them only publish data with references (although mistakes may still be made in transcription), but there is at least one site with some really dubious entries because anyone from the public is allowed to enter information. It blows my mind that anyone finds this acceptable, but alas they do; and therefore all info on the net must be considered suspect from the outset unless validated at the published source. Don > There was a time when a Library was an invaluable source of information, > now Internet has supplemented that beyond prior method. I remember > waiting for the yearly Encyclopedia update. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:03:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:03:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <126.1cd11a63.2b2b3478@aol.com> By quick calculation, by the year 13,987 AD, the weight of the average set of labels will exceed the average weight of a specimen. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:06:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:06:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <168.187a8e9f.2b2b2f71@aol.com> Message-ID: <007901c2a2a9$bab21180$fa9d77d5@pandora.be> | Very good, but there was not yet a discovery of significant, if any, Mashamba | cuprite when it was still the Belgian Congo. The discovery is barely fifteen | years old. Possibly older in some geologist's notebook. Production of these | goodies was highest in the 1990's. Now the wonderful and astonishing ol' time | cuprites from Likasi and Lubumbashi are another story. You're probably right. It was just an example I created. The real label would read: Cuprite, Mupine & Mashamba, Katanga Mineral of the month: October 1989 Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <14.4867ed6.2b2b3538@aol.com> I guess we can find solace in the fact that the average website has a half-life of two years. van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Pete Richards) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral from Maine In-Reply-To: <122.1bd9aa5b.2b2b2e17@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Van, I have some samples from Hayes Ledges, collected in 2000 I think, that I may have talked to you about before. They are apparently uranium compounds, and occur with zircons in a coarse garnet-bearing granite (I'm not quite ready to call it a pegmatite, but maybe I really should), often on or in muscovite. the whole area around them is stained a funny grey color, unlike the rusty area further away on the specimens. The material in question is opaque blebs to occasional monoclinic crystals (possibly a pseudomorph), color from light yellow to greenish yellow to free-range chicken's egg yolk orange (i.e. yellow-orange). It contains carbonate as judged by fizz in HCl. It is weakly fluorescent in long wave UV, much less so than the films of presumed autunite that are associated as crack fillings in the fractured quartz. Given the site/description, do you know what this is? One guess is rutherfordine. I can send you a couple of small samples if you like, especially if you can get them checked for me. Regards, Pete -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul L. Burton) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mount St. Helen Ash Message-ID: <20021213.090917.7215.0.jrburton@juno.com> I have the following pieces of the Mt. St. Helen ash glass. one piece 22mm round by 30mm long - 178 cts. one piece 26mm round by 17mm long - 117 cts. one piece 23mm round by 23mm long - 124 cts. 9 pieces various sizes 139 cts. all the above are green color one piece 8mm round by 32mm long - 19 cts. one piece 8mm round by 17mm long - 10 cts. these two are blue color Price is 15 cents per carat plus postage. If interested in purchasing any or all of this material you may e-mail me off list at jrburton@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Pete Richards) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <122.1bd9aa5b.2b2b2e17@aol.com> Message-ID: Greetings, all, and apologies for sending everyone what should have been a personal note to one of our list members. Of course, if anybody else thinks they know what that stuff is, you should feel free to voice an opinion! Pete Richards -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 05:43:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Van hee) Date: Fri Dec 13 05:43:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <168.187a8e9f.2b2b2f71@aol.com> <007901c2a2a9$bab21180$fa9d77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <000f01c2a2ad$5cfd47e0$fbdcc850@dehtxcim3a42hi> OOps, I thought in 1989 is was still Zaire and Shaba. When did Mobutu disappear from the scene? So 1989: Mashamba & Mupine, Shaba, Zaire. If found Recently: Mashamba & Mupine, Katanga, Congo. What about undated specimens? Rgds, Paul Van hee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axel Emmermann" To: Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" > > > | Very good, but there was not yet a discovery of significant, if any, > Mashamba > | cuprite when it was still the Belgian Congo. The discovery is barely > fifteen > | years old. Possibly older in some geologist's notebook. Production of > these > | goodies was highest in the 1990's. Now the wonderful and astonishing ol' > time > | cuprites from Likasi and Lubumbashi are another story. > > You're probably right. It was just an example I created. > The real label would read: > > Cuprite, Mupine & Mashamba, Katanga > Mineral of the month: October 1989 > > Axel > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 07:01:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Dec 13 07:01:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <126.1cd11a63.2b2b3478@aol.com> Message-ID: <00bb01c2a2b9$e38e52c0$fa9d77d5@pandora.be> | By quick calculation, by the year 13,987 AD, the weight of the average set of | labels will exceed the average weight of a specimen. At that time all civilization will have collapsed. There will be no more paper. We will have to catalogue our label collection by carving the data in flat stones. Shortly thereafter the imbalans will have been repared and again we will store more stone than paper on our shelves. Again, the human race prevailes... Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 10:17:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 13 10:17:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" In-Reply-To: <3DF9619F.FC55E8A2@cox.net> References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: Hi Teresa, I'm a big user of the Internet for research, but unless I'm actually really poor at it, I don't agree. From my experience, their is a huge volume of information still is not available on the Internet, especially old historical information. I doubt that if I was trying to trace any of a number of names of old (as in a few centuries ) mines, states, provinces, towns/cities, etc. in Germany, Bulgaria, Tajikistan, etc. that I could spend way too much time on it and not even come close to the answer. There is a lot of data on the Internet, but a good library is still the only place for the information in old reference books and maps for geographical and historical information. The problem isn't schools not offering the courses anymore. I believe I had a good education in history, but considering how many hundreds of years of historical information there were (prior to my shool days) in Europe and Asia, there is no way it could have all been taught to me, or anyone in a lifetime. It is still easier for the next person buying a specimen to get all that he can off a label, but as stated in several messages, most of the information has to be in the catalog -- there just isn't room on the label. Of course we are avoiding one major problem -- time. Most of us don't have time to be thorough! Considering that most(?) collectors have a minimal or no catalog at all, we unfortunately are not going to solve the world's problems with our exchange here. Darn! Regards, Lanny >Lanny, >Coming from the position of an observer, may I offer the following. With >the advent of the Internet and lists such as these, much information >previously laborious to track, can now be done with far more ease and >accuracy. > >With schools today offering only "Social Studies" rather than History >and Geography, many today have no idea of what where used to be or >called. > >There was a time when a Library was an invaluable source of information, >now Internet has supplemented that beyond prior method. I remember >waiting for the yearly Encyclopedia update. > >Without the progression of changes listed on labels, many would have no >clue at all. >Thanks, >Teresa > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 10:44:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (liz fodi) Date: Fri Dec 13 10:44:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Should we rush to correct labels? References: <122.1bd9aa5b.2b2b2e17@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DFA2BB9.9C560169@utoronto.ca> I remember going through this one back in the early days of the original list. I still feel the simplest and best solution is to date the specimen label and record, but this isn't possible for many older and purchased specimens. So... Here is a repeat of one solution, used in cataloguing library materials. History cards. Either actual or electronic. They go like this. First name, date (Last year before change) After [date] SEE second name, date After [date] SEE third name, date etc. Card for second name. Second name, date Before [date] SEE First name , date After [date] SEE third name, date etc. A lot of work? So. . . Some systems do a global change instead. This does not mean adding names but completely changing the information. Why? Well if you keep adding names and you are up to "d" then some fields will read a+b+c, some b+c, some c only, each has to be accounted for during changes. Or one needs to create a second field. Doing this for huge collections which choose to abandon the history card means a global change that catches every variant (including spellings). This is daunting in itself. Since sheer size has created a climate that favours less not more detail this alternative isn't favoured anyway. Will these systems continue using this policy? Who knows. Library cataloguing RULES change. BUT. . . Seems to me there is a lot more work involved in changing all the records (even if electronic, never mind hard copy) and labels than in updating historical reference cards. The locality field is a searchable field in good databases whether electronic or not and is the obvious place to put information about the locality itself. If you sustitute history card information for the locality name current at the time the specimen was collected or acquired, inferred historical data is lost. You need two fields to avoid this problem. Without history card information as a database reference, someone needing to know previous names in order to correlate reference materials during research, has to seek what are frequently outdated or inadequate alternative references. In the case of mineral specimens from localities with a long history there are often changes in the formational environment leading to new suites of minerals,and/or changes in habit, relative abundance, trace elements, etc. By retaining original locality information at least a rough estimate of when a particular specimen first saw the light of day is retained, and in a backhanded sort of manner, an idea of what level or which pit it might have come from is inferred. A couple of worms from the can Liz Fodi liz.fodi@utoronto.ca From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 16:34:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Dec 13 16:34:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New astrobleme hypothesis In-Reply-To: <3DFA2BB9.9C560169@utoronto.ca> Message-ID: The New Scientist has a item today about a new hypothesis about the missing astrobleme (meteor impact craters) problem: http://194.201.29.81/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993171 Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 19:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocksndogs) Date: Fri Dec 13 19:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] response to dealer/collector? Message-ID: <001a01c2a323$072a7100$52f2153f@computer> Can a mineral dealer be a collecter? Sure. Why not? Dealers have better = access than most average collectors. They can buy cheaper, keep the = best for themselves, sell the rest for a tidy profit. Often there is = more than one fine piece in a lot. I think many dealers are collectors = and many collectors turn into dealers, as they look for the best prices = on the best pieces, or simply upgrading what they already have. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 20:27:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Dec 13 20:27:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <126.1cd11a63.2b2b3478@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DFAB2E7.112B@Tomaszewski.net> ANNWB2@aol.com wrote: > > By quick calculation, by the year 13,987 AD, the weight of the average set of > labels will exceed the average weight of a specimen. > > Van Many collectors make a new label when they acquire a specimen from another collection. The new label usually mentions the collection it was acquired from (ex collection of ____) and often has updated location information. I have a couple specimens in my collection that have five labels, and several that have three (or four). This makes much more sense than trying to update labels with every change in politics. You didn't show the math, but I think your date is too early based on common practice. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 13 20:50:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Masters) Date: Fri Dec 13 20:50:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> Lanny, Thank you for your patient reply. I have been thinking for several years now that some of the scholarship money the Federation's offer could be designated to students researching, analyzing, cataloging the up to 50 years accumulation of riches clubs have in storage. I envision all written records scanned into computers and eventually to a CD preserving this history. Rock and Mineral collections can also be digitally photographed and stored on CD's. This could be a Thesis project for a Graduate student which would then be published. I believe we can preserve more this way, and as there are clubs world wide, this could be an International project. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 05:00:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Dec 14 05:00:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> Message-ID: <3DFB2BEA.9B09797A@att.net> Oh you are the woman I have been seeking all my life. This is exactly the idea I had--well, I'm sure many people thought of it since the idea is obvious--to catalog everything electronically. That is a monstrous task; however, the work can be divided up among a number of people. As I've also stated before, it should be done under the auspices of academia and peer review so the information conforms to the same standards as refereed journals. I already have a website and domain and have started compiling information. What this idea needs, of course, is support from orgs like the IMA and MSA and from academics. The effort should be centralized; there is much duplicate information out there, and ironically the whole idea of the web was that a piece of information would be recorded once, and linked. Now what we've got are numbers of people working in parallel toward the same goal, and not always correctly. Wouldn't it be great if all proven information about all minerals were available for search? Lanny Ream has done a great job with MinDex, but quite frankly I'd like to see much more done in that arena. The technology is available, and there is no reason, for example, why I shouldn't be able to search for the unit cell parameters, refractive indices, and birefringence of all analyzed samples of cuspidine. [shaking self out of it] Back to the topic, there is also no reason that locality information could not be entered into a searchable comprehensive database. But, as the old fable goes, who is going to bell the cat? [preaching again] This is where academia falls short. If you want to teach kids how to work in the real world, take a student from the computer science department, team him with a student from the geology/mineralogy/hydrology/chemistry/physics department, and let them rip at designing programs for recording and retrieving this information. If their professors can get them to understand each other and complete the projects, not only will they have a handle on workplace collaboration and communication, they will also have contributed to world peace. Don Teresa Masters wrote: > > Lanny, > Thank you for your patient reply. I have been thinking for several years > now that some of the scholarship money the Federation's offer could be > designated to students researching, analyzing, cataloging the up to 50 > years accumulation of riches clubs have in storage. > > I envision all written records scanned into computers and eventually to > a CD preserving this history. Rock and Mineral collections can also be > digitally photographed and stored on CD's. > > This could be a Thesis project for a Graduate student which would then > be published. > > I believe we can preserve more this way, and as there are clubs world > wide, this could be an International project. > Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 09:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Dec 14 09:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" In-Reply-To: <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: Hi Teresa, Yes, the more the better! But, as your message is referring to, the biggest problem to getting all the world's data on CDs and the Internet is time and money. The two main mineral groups I'm a member of the the Northwest (Friends of Mineralogy - Pacific Northwest Chaper, and Northwest Micro Mineral Study Groups) both have way more than enough "reserve" money in bank accounts, yet we seem to have a difficult time doing anything with the excess. Projects of computerizing information would be useful to so many more than just the club members. Personally, I'm computerizing everything I do with mineral collecting: the mineral catalog is computerized (including a linked file with location information, photographs, etc. [although it is painfully slow to go back over the early years and add info]). All my field notes are now done via the computer (love that Newton for taking field notes!); and notes from past years are slowly being entered. MinDex, the database/index to the mineral periodicals and locality database that I sell, is planned to have linked files with various useful information. One very knowledgable European collector has offered his mineral catalog (over 10,000 specimens) as an add on for its locality informaton. As most of us on this list know, there are many web sites with locality descriptions, various collector information, mineral databases, etc. It will continue to get better. And we can't forget all the information we share directly on this list! Many (most?) of us archive messages that we think will be useful nor or later. Regards, Lanny >Lanny, >Thank you for your patient reply. I have been thinking for several years >now that some of the scholarship money the Federation's offer could be >designated to students researching, analyzing, cataloging the up to 50 >years accumulation of riches clubs have in storage. > >I envision all written records scanned into computers and eventually to >a CD preserving this history. Rock and Mineral collections can also be >digitally photographed and stored on CD's. > >This could be a Thesis project for a Graduate student which would then >be published. > >I believe we can preserve more this way, and as there are clubs world >wide, this could be an International project. >Teresa > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 09:56:25 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Dec 14 09:56:25 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" In-Reply-To: <3DFB2BEA.9B09797A@att.net> References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> Message-ID: Hi Don, Unfortuanately you left out one major hurdle - academia appears to care less and less about minerals each year. From what I hear, mineralogy classes in college are getting scarce; state divisions of geology have nearly all dropped their state mineralogist position; and MSA doesn't appear to care about minerals and localities anymore, only technical side of mineralogy (how about the editorial in Am. Min. last year(?) about changing the name because "mineralogy" didn't appear to mean anything to society anymore). Unfortunately, I think most of the work is left to the amateur based groups, and individuals. Regards, Lanny >Oh you are the woman I have been seeking all my life. This is exactly >the idea I had--well, I'm sure many people thought of it since the idea >is obvious--to catalog everything electronically. That is a monstrous >task; however, the work can be divided up among a number of people. As >I've also stated before, it should be done under the auspices of >academia and peer review so the information conforms to the same >standards as refereed journals. I already have a website and domain and >have started compiling information. What this idea needs, of course, is >support from orgs like the IMA and MSA and from academics. The effort >should be centralized; there is much duplicate information out there, >and ironically the whole idea of the web was that a piece of information >would be recorded once, and linked. Now what we've got are numbers of >people working in parallel toward the same goal, and not always >correctly. Wouldn't it be great if all proven information about all >minerals were available for search? Lanny Ream has done a great job >with MinDex, but quite frankly I'd like to see much more done in that >arena. The technology is available, and there is no reason, for >example, why I shouldn't be able to search for the unit cell parameters, >refractive indices, and birefringence of all analyzed samples of >cuspidine. > >[shaking self out of it] Back to the topic, there is also no reason that >locality information could not be entered into a searchable >comprehensive database. But, as the old fable goes, who is going to >bell the cat? > >[preaching again] This is where academia falls short. If you want to >teach kids how to work in the real world, take a student from the >computer science department, team him with a student from the >geology/mineralogy/hydrology/chemistry/physics department, and let them >rip at designing programs for recording and retrieving this >information. If their professors can get them to understand each other >and complete the projects, not only will they have a handle on workplace >collaboration and communication, they will also have contributed to >world peace. > >Don > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 10:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. A. Barwood) Date: Sat Dec 14 10:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> Message-ID: <3DFB715E.2062B25E@bluemarble.net> lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > Unfortuanately you left out one major hurdle - academia appears to care > less and less about minerals each year. From what I hear, mineralogy > classes in college are getting scarce; state divisions of geology have > nearly all dropped their state mineralogist position; and MSA doesn't > appear to care about minerals and localities anymore, only technical side > of mineralogy (how about the editorial in Am. Min. last year(?) about > changing the name because "mineralogy" didn't appear to mean anything to > society anymore). > > Unfortunately, I think most of the work is left to the amateur based > groups, and individuals. I rather wryly joked a few years back that I had become one of the top ten descriptive mineralogists in the US because number 11 died! The joke has backfired, because we are indeed a dying breed and the situation becomes more and more grim each year. 30 years ago mineralogists were employed by mining companies, petroleum companies, the refractory industry, state and federal government, and academia. Today, 90% of employment is in academia (and the non-academic segment is waiting on retirement!). Ask children coming out of a museum the names of Dinosaurs and they can quote statistics. Ask them to name a mineral and you will draw a blank stare. Henry Barwood From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 17:13:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Masters) Date: Sat Dec 14 17:13:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3DFBD81A.43C40046@cox.net> Lanny, I am a member of CFMS, and was on the Scholarship Committee for three years ending as Chair. It is hard to bring about changes when many are entrenched in the "this is how we do it" mind set. I would like a clue as to how to approach the "Board" to consider suggestions toward making some positive changes into today. Many still consider the computer as an enemy. We had a well known collector approaching the end of her life. I tried to encourage a Masters or Ph.D. candidate to be assigned to her to catalog and record her collection into a computer and onto a CD. This could be of benefit all around. The graduate candidate gets her works published, the Federation can reproduce and sell the CD for additional funds, and the collection is saved for the future. I am still hopeful that this will begin to happen all over the world in one form or another. Thanks, Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 18:58:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Dec 14 18:58:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> Message-ID: <3DFBF079.B652BD56@att.net> lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > > Hi Don, > > Unfortuanately you left out one major hurdle - academia appears to care > less and less about minerals each year. From what I hear, mineralogy > classes in college are getting scarce; Tell me about it. I can't even find anything but geology classes in all the major local universities. I had to take a class in forensic microscopy just to get some optical mineralogy & crystallography under my belt (in between suffering through the hair & fiber sections; I only perked up when we started doing grain mounts, at which point the girl next to me, a recently hired forensic analyst, said, "I hope I never have to do this when I get out of here.") Even college chemistry, once you get past Chem II, focuses mostly on organic chem and those funny little rings and designs--I mean, come on people, how many ways can you stick C, O, and H together, let's make some MINERALS! I happened to get into the back room of a large university, and instead of looking at their collection, I spent almost the entire time looking at x-ray and FTIR and TEM equipment, asking how they worked, what they would tell me, and how to prep specimens for each. It ain't easy. Fortunately, there is a lot of good academic info on the net about crystallography, and even though I have a small mental block when it comes to that kind of info, it makes enough sense now that I could feel comfortable in a class. Bring on the unit cells, prepare the Bravais lattices, damn the Miller indices, full speed ahead. > MSA doesn't > appear to care about minerals and localities anymore, only technical side > of mineralogy (how about the editorial in Am. Min. last year(?) about > changing the name because "mineralogy" didn't appear to mean anything to > society anymore). Oh that's nice. I just joined MSA thinking I might be ready to get something out of AmMin. Now I know why people are telling me, "Read Canadian Mineralogist, that's where it's at." > Unfortunately, I think most of the work is left to the amateur based > groups, and individuals. Scary. I'm not encouraged when I go to two different web sites and see two different type localities listed for a mineral, or sometimes the same locality with different spellings; or a rare mineral listed from a locality where it shouldn't be and the reference cited is "Joe's collection." Hey, vocational mineralogists aren't perfect either (or else minerals would never be discredited, for one thing), but at least they make the best effort and there is a peer review process. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 14 19:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Masters) Date: Sat Dec 14 19:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> <3DFB2BEA.9B09797A@att.net> Message-ID: <3DFBF730.4710B78@cox.net> Don, One problem has been the resistance of clubs to share anything with one another. That insular attitude is not positive for the community at large at all. Off course favorite digging sites were always secret and now lie in many lie in the graves along with the secret keepers. A marriage of Earth Sciences and Computer Sciences would be ideal to preserve all available records of Minerals and Fossils. I think more would be willing if they thought there would be some income from all this effort. I think there is perfect opportunity for all involved to reap rewards. Think, once the material is organized onto a CD and pictures accompanying the text. The entire CD can be sold as is, or can also be sent on to Hong Kong or similar for printing, and sold to the general public as well as libraries and education centers around the world, there can be an update just as the encyclopedia companies did in the past. It is just too easy to say "that is not how we do things" than to listen with an open ear and brain. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 05:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Dec 15 05:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral from Maine Message-ID: <15.4b1aa56.2b2de1ed@aol.com> The Hayes Ledge pegmatite specimen/association is not particularly well-known, although the general association is known from nearby areas. The description seems to be that of several species. In Maine and NH pegmatites, zircons are frequently replaced by yellow minerals. Ditto little uraninite grains, if any, in association. Most of the time, the zircons are primarily replaced by uranophane and the uraninite by schoepite, although the zircons from the "nearby" Heikkinen pegmatite proved to have been replaced by kasolite, by XRD. The replaced zircons deserve a real study as most of them were only analyzed by Gene Foord for their chemistry, not for their x-ray pattern. The secondary yellow uranium minerals do show a sequence of development relative to pegmatitic zircon. The actual source grain can be replaced by oxides or silicates. Just outside the grain, there may be a stain of a silicate or phosphate. There may be a halo, further removed, around the grain consisting of silicate/phosphate material. In a case where you have a well-developed sequence, the grain is uranophane + schoepite + rutherfordine (very little though). The margin of the grain may contain uranophane + beta-uranophane. The halo may contain a mixture of light yellow (nearly invisible to white light) autunite plus grains of darker yellow (nearly non-fluorescent) phosphuranylite +/- uranophane. The fluorescence is mostly due to autunite and a little autunite can go a long way. Most of the other mentioned species are poorly fluorescent at best. Rutherfordine is probably more common than suspected but its presence is hard to verify. If you have a petrographic scope, you can sometimes "identify" the crystals you mention by optical properties. The RI's are hard to measure though due to the body color of the minerals. When I say identify, I really mean seek for consistency with the species mentioned here. The number of choices is relatively small. Of course, you might find an association not observed before, but the sequence is fairly well-known already. Gene and others did a great study on them which appeared in two articles in Can Min. 1997, pages 135-151. Some of the Maine work was begun after the articles were mostly written so those results only appeared in Mineralogy of Maine as specific observations. The USGS Bulletin 1064 (1958) by Frondel turned out to remain relatively "fresh" and still pertinent, especially as far as the data were concerned. Gene and his co-workers did not observe all of the species reported by Frondel, despite the advances in technology since Frondel's study - a measure of the effort Cliff put into the work. Some of Cliff's specimens were restudied but evidently the studied portion of the specimen contained the goodies and the residue did not. With regard to getting your specimen identified, optics will probably be more useful than XRD as there is probably very little material on the specimen of interest. You could get a semiquantitative analysis from the specimen using back-scattered electrons, but that would involve more $ than the information is worth. Bart Cannon at Cannonmicroprobe.com and Tony Nickischer at Excalibur Minerals both offer these services. They are equally economical. In Canada, I believe there's a lab in Swastika, Ontario which may have some electronics to do the job (Yup, you read that town right.) (The Berman and Larsen "optics tables" say in their introduction that optics alone or a chemical analysis alone are about equally as useful in identifying a mineral species. I know you know this, but just for the discussion, XRD also has it's limitations. For any x-ray pattern, there is frequently a number of species which will give you the essentially same result and then you need more information to choose a single species after the x-ray pattern has been "identified". A good mineralogist will then use several tests to "nail down" a final species name selection. An identification based on a single test is frequently open to questioning.) With all the "maybe's" and qualifications, you probably have very little new criteria at your fingertips. Sight identification, a technique of the larger art called "voodoo mineralogy" is aided by knowledge of patterns of crystallization and knowledge of paragenesis. Informed identification is always better than using a dartboard. Best Regards, Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 05:59:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Dec 15 05:59:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> <3DFB2BEA.9B09797A@att.net> <3DFBF730.4710B78@cox.net> Message-ID: <3DFC8B56.D4BBC52B@att.net> Teresa Masters wrote: > > A marriage of Earth Sciences and Computer Sciences would be ideal to > preserve all available records of Minerals and Fossils. I think more > would be willing if they thought there would be some income from all > this effort. Most times that I have demonstrated some form of computerization to hobbyists, I get blank stares in return. So far I have lectured to groups and presented the benefits of using 3D topo map programs combined with Gary's MAS/MILS data to find localities; now, you would think with all those field collectors to whom I was talking, they would have been falling over themselves trying to get this. Dead silence. I asked who might be interested by a show of hands, and I got two or three people to hesitantly raise theirs, more likely to make me feel better. After the presentation, I went to the only two people in the room younger than I, and said, "Hey how about this." The husband replied, "Nah, that's OK, I'll just do it the way I've been doing it." I was going to offer a service whereby someone would give me a set of coordinates in lat/long or UTM, or a mine or claim name, and I would print a 2D and 3D map of the locality for them in full color, for $7 including postage; now I am afraid that my advertising costs in MinRec or R&M would never be recovered. I have also talked about using the Internet, joining the mailing list, using a comprehensive database design which I am willing to give away for free and was peer reviewed by PhDs and museum professionals; mostly silence, and when I do get a response, it's either "I don't have the time," "I don't do computers," "my hand-written card catalog is just fine," etc. Using the raw data I keep in my head, I'd feel comfortable saying that the majority of collectors with whom I've met or corresponded are interested simply in having minerals, not in any peripheral technology that helps one find, curate, collect, locate, ask about, sell, trade, analyze, or study them. Of course the present company is excluded, since if you are reading this then obviously you have some interest in using the computer and the Internet, etc. It doesn't help that the majority of collectors whom I have seen are over 50; sometimes I get a nice pat on the back and the comforting assurance that "I'm too old to start playing with computers, but what you're doing is great, and a lot of young people should be involved in this, so keep it up." The best help I can ask, then, is for the folks on the list to do the same. I know some ancient seniors who have a very difficult time even turning the computer on, yet they have courageously overcome their own resistance and at least have e-mail and use the list(s) to their advantage. I applaud them for that. By extension, then, everyone can at least talk to other people about it, encouraging everyone, but especially the young who have no excuse; and as I say when finishing my talks, "I realize some of you may have no interest in these things, but please realize their importance to the future of the hobby, so even if you despise computers, please tell others what you've heard today and encourage them, especially new collectors, to embrace the technology for their own benefit." Digital Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 06:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Dec 15 06:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Should we rush to correct labels? Message-ID: <3c.291383e4.2b2de8c4@aol.com> Good discussion, Liz. I would add a comment about "global replacement" you say some librarians use. "Global replacement's" main problem is that if you change the name of an old identification without noting what the previous identification was, history is violated. When researching locality articles or books, I seek out historically questionable specimens which have the questionable information on their labels. It's very difficult to decide what an old misidentification would be in modern terms, if you don't have an antique specimen to verify. I have the only two labeled specimens of uranopilite from Maine. They were from the H. Wallace Noyes collection. Noyes died in 1937. His label indicated that he got the specimens from "Bailey". Edmund Bailey wrote an article on minerals of Rumford, Maine in 1930 in which he listed uranopilite. Unfortunately, the uranopilite specimens are not from Rumford, but Newry instead. They do, however, illustrate, in a general way, what Bailey thought uranopilite looked like. The Newry mineral proved to be the second world occurrence of vanmeersscheite. All of the observed/tested specimens from Rumford proved to be phosphuranylite. Also have a specimen labeled ruby from Maine. It's obviously a red garnet crystal, but the specimen is treasured because it is one of the misidentified specimens that was reported in days of yore. In the 1970's, particularly, there was an effort to expunge all obsolete mineral names. Fortunately, there was enough lethargy to minimize the damage to mineralogical history. Some computerized collections have suffered as the data entered is frequently the currently accepted name, rather than the earlier names. Sometimes, if you go to the actual specimen the old information is present. Other times, a shiny new label is the only document you find. Yale University folklore has it that William Ford, who was author of the third and fourth editions of Dana's Textbook - the red Dana's, through out all the antique labels in the mineral collection (i.e., Silliman, Gibbs, Brush, Dana, Penfield, et al.) because the history detracted the students' in their study of the specimens. Interestingly, there has been a number of old species which have made a comeback. The relabled specimens now appear to be something that they are not. All in all, additional labels are the way to go. Label collectors have developed the philosophy that the only way they should collect labels is to have the original specimen, as well as the antique paper. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 07:42:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Sun Dec 15 07:42:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <001301c2a44f$f3a2ce60$5a4227c4@horstspc> Hi everybody, About a week ago, I started this discussion and it was my intention to = comment on the various viewpoints made by contributors. However, this = "saga" seems to be ongoing for a while, so will deliver my comments in a = few days time. However, in the meantime, I would just like to thank = everybody for stating their views and making suggestions (some of which = are practical and others not so practical, in my point of view. But right at the outset, I promised you I would relate an incident, = which actually started me on this trail. As many of you will Know (those = that didn't will know now), I was born in South West Africa but left at = a very early age, as my dad could not make a decent living over there = during the depression years of the thirties, so we moved to Pretoria, = South Africa in May 1935. During one of my first visits to the Smithsonian (cannot remember the = exact year, it was either 1979 or 1983), there was an exhibit of Tsumeb = minerals in the Smithsonian and the heading at the top said "Tsumeb, = Namibia". Upon my return home, I wrote a letter to the curator and = pointed out that "NAMIBIA" a name given to that country by the United = Nations. At that time, it was still governed by the South African = Government as a Mandated Country (as agreed upon at the Treaty of = Versailles, France, in 1919). I pointed out that all postage stamps, = government stationary, public signs, maps, etc. still indicated that the = official name was "South West Africa." A few years later, upon visiting the Smithsonian again, I noticed that = the title to the exhibit had been altered to "Tsumeb, South West = Africa." Then again a few years later, after South Africa had lost its case at = the World Court in the Hague (Netherlands), the official name became = "Namibia". Then I visited the Smithsonian again, but the title on the = showcase still read "Tsumeb, South West Africa." I leave it to your imagination what I then did (or did not do), taking = into account that we that were born in South West Africa (Namibia) = before World War !!, still talk fondly of being born in = "Suedwestafrika". Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 11:14:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Marcus Origlieri) Date: Sun Dec 15 11:14:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" In-Reply-To: <3DFB2BEA.9B09797A@att.net> References: <002501c2a1f2$cebac760$e33d27c4@horstspc> <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021215122323.00b18b20@mail62.pair.com> That would be a graduate project that yields no degree. Cataloguing data is not sufficient to earn an advanced degree. Analysis is required. a graduate student Marcus At 08:02 AM 12/14/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Oh you are the woman I have been seeking all my life. This is exactly >the idea I had--well, I'm sure many people thought of it since the idea >is obvious--to catalog everything electronically. That is a monstrous >task; however, the work can be divided up among a number of people. As >I've also stated before, it should be done under the auspices of >academia and peer review so the information conforms to the same >standards as refereed journals. I already have a website and domain and >have started compiling information. What this idea needs, of course, is >support from orgs like the IMA and MSA and from academics. The effort >should be centralized; there is much duplicate information out there, >and ironically the whole idea of the web was that a piece of information >would be recorded once, and linked. Now what we've got are numbers of >people working in parallel toward the same goal, and not always >correctly. Wouldn't it be great if all proven information about all >minerals were available for search? Lanny Ream has done a great job >with MinDex, but quite frankly I'd like to see much more done in that >arena. The technology is available, and there is no reason, for >example, why I shouldn't be able to search for the unit cell parameters, >refractive indices, and birefringence of all analyzed samples of >cuspidine. > >[shaking self out of it] Back to the topic, there is also no reason that >locality information could not be entered into a searchable >comprehensive database. But, as the old fable goes, who is going to >bell the cat? > >[preaching again] This is where academia falls short. If you want to >teach kids how to work in the real world, take a student from the >computer science department, team him with a student from the >geology/mineralogy/hydrology/chemistry/physics department, and let them >rip at designing programs for recording and retrieving this >information. If their professors can get them to understand each other >and complete the projects, not only will they have a handle on workplace >collaboration and communication, they will also have contributed to >world peace. > >Don > > > >Teresa Masters wrote: > > > > Lanny, > > Thank you for your patient reply. I have been thinking for several years > > now that some of the scholarship money the Federation's offer could be > > designated to students researching, analyzing, cataloging the up to 50 > > years accumulation of riches clubs have in storage. > > > > I envision all written records scanned into computers and eventually to > > a CD preserving this history. Rock and Mineral collections can also be > > digitally photographed and stored on CD's. > > > > This could be a Thesis project for a Graduate student which would then > > be published. > > > > I believe we can preserve more this way, and as there are clubs world > > wide, this could be an International project. > > Teresa >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 15:01:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Sun Dec 15 15:01:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral from Maine References: <15.4b1aa56.2b2de1ed@aol.com> Message-ID: <003e01c2a48e$2b14f420$5b05efd1@oemcomputer> snip >In Canada, I believe there's a lab in Swastika, Ontario which may > have some electronics to do the job (Yup, you read that town right.) snip From: <3DFAB970.7F12A9@cox.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20021215122323.00b18b20@mail62.pair.com> Message-ID: <3DFD104B.B9DA66B7@att.net> No no no, I don't mean that as a thesis project. I just meant as a semester's work. You know me better than that--however, as I'm writing this, I realize that this would be a gradeable project more for the computer science student. Just imagine, though: if you got permission from the MSA, you could assign one issue each to a pair of students, for the purpose of scanning and indexing and cross-referencing that issue into the system, and that could be extra credit. It would not take that long for one pair to do one issue of a journal. I realize that grad students would rather play with their precession cameras and FTIR scopes than catalog dreary data, but it needs to be done; just like taking out the trash and washing the dishes, this is one of the family chores and it wouldn't hurt for the whole family to contribute. By the way, I think the reason people are saying "grad students" is because they just might not trust undergrads with the task. DD Marcus Origlieri wrote: > > That would be a graduate project that yields no degree. Cataloguing data > is not sufficient to earn an advanced degree. Analysis is required. > > a graduate student > Marcus > > > > >[preaching again] This is where academia falls short. If you want to > >teach kids how to work in the real world, take a student from the > >computer science department, team him with a student from the > >geology/mineralogy/hydrology/chemistry/physics department, and let them > >rip at designing programs for recording and retrieving this > >information. If their professors can get them to understand each other > >and complete the projects, not only will they have a handle on workplace > >collaboration and communication, they will also have contributed to > >world peace. > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 15:41:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Dec 15 15:41:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen Message-ID: <140.5307e7f.2b2e6cf3@aol.com> Hello, I picked up a plate of crystals that I believe is selenite at Bolado Park, San Bonito Co., CA. My understanding is the creek through Bolado Park follows the San Andreas Fault. The crystals look like selenite and my pocket knife scratches them. The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? I don't think the specimen has any value "as is." Should I soak it? Sponge it off with oxalic acid? Any other suggestions? Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 17:05:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Dec 15 17:05:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New "can of worms" Message-ID: <17.33157d4d.2b2e8092@aol.com> Don't forget about the bright cuprite from Dikuluwe, Katanga, Congo. Certainly the world's best cuprite came from Likasi. Gilbert Gauthier says it was better than the fabulous Bisbee crystal pictured on the cover of MR. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 15 17:44:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Dec 15 17:44:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen References: <140.5307e7f.2b2e6cf3@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DFD309F.CCC85445@att.net> First, the good news, " . . . Calcium sulfate ("Gypsum") is the insoluble precipitate . . . " as seen on this page (and many others if you search for "+calcium +sulfate +insoluble +precipitate"): http://www.chem.wisc.edu/~bestchem/104pe3.htm Other pages, however, mention that CaSO4 is somewhat soluble, though I have cleaned gypsum with water and made gypsum from solution and the crystals remained intact. The bad news is that, if I'm reading this right, mixing oxalic acid with calium sulfate may ruin your gypsum and produce sulfuric acid (I'm not a chemist, but I play one on the Internet): http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct99/940019801.Ch.r.html This is a stop-gap answer. Hopefully someone far better than I answers the question, but if not, the aforementioned info may help you in your search. If the brown stains are indeed iron, then a buffered cleaner like Waller solution may help. You might be able to get away with Iron-Out or CLR from your hardware or home supply store, though of course you should try this on a small crystal first. Good luck, and keep checking it out before you do anything. Don Lapadary@aol.com wrote: > > I picked up a plate of crystals that I believe is selenite at Bolado Park, > San Bonito Co., CA. My understanding is the creek through Bolado Park follows > the San Andreas Fault. The crystals look like selenite and my pocket knife > scratches them. > > The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off > with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but > selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid > but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 03:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Dec 16 03:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen References: <140.5307e7f.2b2e6cf3@aol.com> <3DFD309F.CCC85445@att.net> Message-ID: <001901c2a4f7$f4edd5a0$b49c77d5@pandora.be> Hi all, | The bad news is that, if I'm reading this right, mixing oxalic acid with | calium sulfate may ruin your gypsum and produce sulfuric acid (I'm not a | chemist, but I play one on the Internet): | | http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct99/940019801.Ch.r.html | | This is a stop-gap answer. Hopefully someone far better than I answers | the question, but if not, the aforementioned info may help you in your | search. I'm not sure but I think this is what happens: Gypsum is a little soluble in water, right? Calcium oxalate is a lot less soluble in water than Gypsum. So mixing a calcium sulfate solution (say from a gypsum that you want to clean) with oxalic acid will result in a white precipitate of calcium oxalate while the sulfuric acid remains in solution. The calcium in the oxalate salt precipitates and is no longer part of the reaction. You have now a very diluted sulfuric acid in which there lies a gypsum crystal. The molecules of gypsum on the surface of the crystal are in contact with the solution and they want to dissociate into ions and dissolve themselves. That creates a pressure of sulfate and calcium ions pushing outward from the crystal. Now, the solution can only have so many Ca (2+) and SO4(2-) as the low solubility of the salt allows for. But there are already a portion of SO4(2-) ions in solution from the H2SO4 that the oxalic acid stole from the gypsum. These sulfate ions exert a counterpressure for the ions trying to escape the crystal and so the solubility of the gypsum decreases. The same happens when you heat up the solution. Gypsum is quite soluble in hot water so a lot more of it will be turned into calcium oxalate. Eventually the reaction will stop but later because of the higher temp. To compare the solubility of gypsum versus calcium oxalate: The latter is the stuff where gallstones and kidney stones are made of. They do not dissolve in your body fluids, not even after years of constant circulation. Comparable gypsum crystal would, in flowing water of 37° CO, dissolve in a matter of hours. Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen | | First, the good news, | | " . . . Calcium sulfate ("Gypsum") is the insoluble precipitate . . . " | | as seen on this page (and many others if you search for "+calcium | +sulfate +insoluble +precipitate"): | | http://www.chem.wisc.edu/~bestchem/104pe3.htm | | Other pages, however, mention that CaSO4 is somewhat soluble, though I | have cleaned gypsum with water and made gypsum from solution and the | crystals remained intact. | | The bad news is that, if I'm reading this right, mixing oxalic acid with | calium sulfate may ruin your gypsum and produce sulfuric acid (I'm not a | chemist, but I play one on the Internet): | | http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct99/940019801.Ch.r.html | | This is a stop-gap answer. Hopefully someone far better than I answers | the question, but if not, the aforementioned info may help you in your | search. | | If the brown stains are indeed iron, then a buffered cleaner like Waller | solution may help. You might be able to get away with Iron-Out or CLR | from your hardware or home supply store, though of course you should try | this on a small crystal first. | | Good luck, and keep checking it out before you do anything. | | Don | | | Lapadary@aol.com wrote: | > | > I picked up a plate of crystals that I believe is selenite at Bolado Park, | > San Bonito Co., CA. My understanding is the creek through Bolado Park follows | > the San Andreas Fault. The crystals look like selenite and my pocket knife | > scratches them. | > | > The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off | > with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but | > selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid | > but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 05:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Steve Sorrell) Date: Mon Dec 16 05:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Mineral Calendar Message-ID: <200212161308.gBGD8cVV000505@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi all Not found that mineral calendar yet? Would you like one with images of attractive Tasmanian minerals? You can now buy a copy of my Tasmanian Mineral 2003 Calendar for US$19.95 from Cafepress.com. Follow this link - http://www.cafeshops.com/crocoite Payment by cards/PayPal accepted. Feedback welcomed. Regards Steve http://www.crocoite.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 06:01:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Dec 16 06:01:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen Message-ID: <69.31f75b8d.2b2f366c@aol.com> In a message dated 12/15/2002 6:41:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lapadary@aol.com writes: > The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off > with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but > selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid > but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? > Try soaking in ammonia. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 06:28:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Mon Dec 16 06:28:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen In-Reply-To: <140.5307e7f.2b2e6cf3@aol.com> Message-ID: >Hello, > >I picked up a plate of crystals that I believe is selenite at Bolado Park, >San Bonito Co., CA. My understanding is the creek through Bolado Park follows >the San Andreas Fault. The crystals look like selenite and my pocket knife >scratches them. Hi. Before cleaning, you should make sure the crystals ARE gypsum. Lots of minerals are easily scratched by a knife blade - i.e. calcite, fluorite, apatite, barite, and aragonite to name a few. A better indicator would be if you could scratch the specimen with your fingernail, as gypsum is one of the few well-crystallized nion-metallic minerals with a hardness of 2 or less. Happy holidays - Dr. Bill Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 06:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Dec 16 06:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen References: <69.31f75b8d.2b2f366c@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c2a511$33360300$b49c77d5@pandora.be> Iron stains are basic and stable in a basic environment. They don't form soluble complexes like i.e. copper or cobalt or silver. Therefore I think that ammonia will rather fixate than remove the stains. Citric acid may be a good cleaning agent as iron citrate (and the double salt iron-potassium citrate) are very soluble. Use COLD solutions to prevent the gypsum from dissolving. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen | In a message dated 12/15/2002 6:41:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, | Lapadary@aol.com writes: | | | > The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off | > with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but | > selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid | > but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? | > | | Try soaking in ammonia. | | John Betts | www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 09:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Mon Dec 16 09:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen References: <140.5307e7f.2b2e6cf3@aol.com> <3DFD309F.CCC85445@att.net> Message-ID: <002701c2a52a$de564380$341dbed8@powertech.net> > > First, the good news, > > " . . . Calcium sulfate ("Gypsum") is the insoluble precipitate . . . " > > as seen on this page (and many others if you search for "+calcium > +sulfate +insoluble +precipitate"): > > http://www.chem.wisc.edu/~bestchem/104pe3.htm > > Other pages, however, mention that CaSO4 is somewhat soluble, though I > have cleaned gypsum with water and made gypsum from solution and the > crystals remained intact. Well, gypsum is soluble enough in water (rainwater) to have: 1) caused the failure of a Quail Creek reservoir cofferdam, sending a huge flood down the Virgin river, wiping out the bridge and then flooding the poish Bloomington area of St. George, Utah The reservoir is in an area with a high occurrence of gypsum, enough so that: 2) The city of St. George had, at that time, just finished a million dollar water treatment plant to clean enough of the gypsum out of the water to make it fit to drink. They rebuilt the cofferdam (over considerable protest, may I way!). It is leaking just as badly as the previous one, so will probably fail again in a few more years. (The original one was not all that old.) > > The bad news is that, if I'm reading this right, mixing oxalic acid with > calium sulfate may ruin your gypsum and produce sulfuric acid (I'm not a > chemist, but I play one on the Internet): > > http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct99/940019801.Ch.r.html Just mixing gypsum and water should do that (to some degree), without the need for any oxalic acid! > > The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off > > with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but > > selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid > > but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? > If the brown stains are indeed iron, then a buffered cleaner like Waller > solution may help. You might be able to get away with Iron-Out or CLR > from your hardware or home supply store, though of course you should try > this on a small crystal first. > > Good luck, and keep checking it out before you do anything. > > Don I would agree with you here, Don. Margaret > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 11:12:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Mon Dec 16 11:12:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen Message-ID: <001601c2a536$714ec580$81a34bd5@o8o3s6> hi Grant, You have two problems. 1) How to clean (slightly soluble) gypsum with water? The trick is very simple. Gypsum is indeed notably soluble in water. Especially fine crystals may be etched. To prevent that you can do two things. You can avoid water alltogether and wash it with 96% Alcohol. Some people say that is a waste of alcohol, so I have a better and cheaper solution. Get some gypsum at the hardwarestore. Make a solution of an excess of gypsum in cold water. Not much gypsum is needed. The limy substance must than be filtered through a coffee filter. If all goes well you now have clear watery solution of as much gypsum as is possible. Your sample won't dissolve in this!! 2) Second problem are the brown stains. Try the dithionite method. Gypsum can handle that and any rust will dissappear. Good luck! Maurice -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Lapadary@aol.com Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Datum: maandag 16 december 2002 0:43 Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] cleaning a specimen >Hello, > >I picked up a plate of crystals that I believe is selenite at Bolado Park, >San Bonito Co., CA. My understanding is the creek through Bolado Park follows >the San Andreas Fault. The crystals look like selenite and my pocket knife >scratches them. > >The whole plate is covered with a rusty brown stain. It does not wash off >with water. I've considered soaking the plate until it washes clean but >selenite is water soluble. I've cleaned quartz and emeralds in oxalic acid >but I'm not sure about selenite. Should I try it? > >I don't think the specimen has any value "as is." Should I soak it? Sponge >it off with oxalic acid? Any other suggestions? > >Grant > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 16 14:01:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Dec 16 14:01:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Masmils Sample In-Reply-To: <4a.14b8b510.2b0eaa03@aol.com> Message-ID: Hey... I'm back from Japan! What a great rock show in Tokyo. I'll be posting some pictures on my site later on. I even traded/sold a bunch of Franklin material and one hunk of Thunder Bay amethyst. But for now... It's my "Extract of the (more or less) month". This month it's Park County, Colorado. That's the home of the famous Sweet Home mine. I've picked that county since I saw an EGG made of Sweet Home rhodochrosite. I wish the owner would have let me a take a picture of it. What a beauty... about 2.5" long. It had a price of gazillion yen. I couldn't help but think, though, of the nice crystal that had to die so the egg could be born. Anywho... You can check out the file at: http://www.catspaw-minerals.com/sample_masmils.htm Save the data and pull it into your DeLorme Street Atlas or Topo USA program (instruction available if you don't know how). If you are interested in grabbing a copy of the disk (great Christmas stocking stuff, or very useful if you need to raise the leg of the dining table about 1mm or so) head on over to eBay. I've got a bunch of copies for sale over there: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=catspaw-m ineral (That's all on one line, if your browser wrapped it.) Regards, Gary http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of MasMils/PLUS From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 17 00:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Tue Dec 17 00:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - Ebay items - last hours ! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021217091859.007b2b50@popmail.libero.it> Hi there, the last hours ! there are still some benitoite, neptunite, melanophlogite and anthymonite to see on ebay ! Visit us at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid =italianminerals or goto: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com Regards and have fun !!! ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 17 01:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Tue Dec 17 01:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eberhard Henkel ? Message-ID: <3DFEF41D.22E727BF@gmx.de> Hello, recently I received a nice specimen of heulandite + fluorite from Fiesch, Wallis, CH. The label originates from "Sammlung Eberhard Henkel". From its appearance I guess it is not very old, maybe 1960's to 1990's. Does anyone know about this person and the history of his collection, its hometown, etc. ? Thank you! Jürgen Wachsmuth Ulm - Germany From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 09:02:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Fri Dec 20 09:02:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: <20021213124622.GVDK9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> Message-ID: <3E034C3C.9000109@emory.edu> Don makes an excellent point. Having worked in libraries for 21 years, I can vouch for the incredible amount of mis-information we find on the Internet every day. People who should know better think if it's "in print" somewhere, (even the Internet) than it must be true. Let the reader beware! And don't ever think that libraries are destined to go the way of the dinosaur. We are here to stay; if for no other reason that to sort out all that junk you keep finding on your computer! Anita morningstar@att.net wrote: >Don't forget, though, that the Internet should be a starting point and not an >end point for research. In the short time I have been collecting, I find it >frustrating to see so much invalidated, and sometimes contradictory data on the >net. There are a number of official-looking sites with detailed data, and the >best of them only publish data with references (although mistakes may still be >made in transcription), but there is at least one site with some really dubious >entries because anyone from the public is allowed to enter information. It >blows my mind that anyone finds this acceptable, but alas they do; and >therefore all info on the net must be considered suspect from the outset unless >validated at the published source. > >Don > > > > > >>There was a time when a Library was an invaluable source of information, >>now Internet has supplemented that beyond prior method. I remember >>waiting for the yearly Encyclopedia update. >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 09:59:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (liz fodi) Date: Fri Dec 20 09:59:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: <20021213124622.GVDK9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> <3E034C3C.9000109@emory.edu> Message-ID: <3E035BD9.248B2925@utoronto.ca> Hear Hear!!! ;-} Liz Fodi Anita Westlake wrote: > And don't ever think that libraries are destined to go the way of the > dinosaur. We are here to stay; if for no other reason that to sort out > all that junk you keep finding on your computer! > > Anita > > morningstar@att.net wrote: > > >Don't forget, though, that the Internet should be a starting point and not an > >end point for research. In the short time I have been collecting, I find it > >frustrating to see so much invalidated, and sometimes contradictory data on the > >net. There are a number of official-looking sites with detailed data, and the > >best of them only publish data with references (although mistakes may still be > >made in transcription), but there is at least one site with some really dubious > >entries because anyone from the public is allowed to enter information. It > >blows my mind that anyone finds this acceptable, but alas they do; and > >therefore all info on the net must be considered suspect from the outset unless > >validated at the published source. > > > >Don > > > > > > > > > > > >>There was a time when a Library was an invaluable source of information, > >>now Internet has supplemented that beyond prior method. I remember > >>waiting for the yearly Encyclopedia update. > >> > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 13:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Dec 20 13:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet In-Reply-To: <3E034C3C.9000109@emory.edu> Message-ID: I'm not claiming that everything you find on the Net is high quality, but that doesn't mean everything in print is fully researched and correct either. There are plenty of junk books in those libraries. It's just a little easier to publish trash on the Net since you don't have to convince a publisher to pay to put your book in print. But no matter how ill informed some book is, if said publisher thinks it will make money then he or some other publisher will print it. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Don makes an excellent point. Having worked in libraries for 21 years, > I can vouch for the incredible amount of mis-information we find on the > Internet every day. People who should know better think if it's "in > print" somewhere, (even the Internet) than it must be true. Let the > reader beware! > And don't ever think that libraries are destined to go the way of the > dinosaur. We are here to stay; if for no other reason that to sort out > all that junk you keep finding on your computer! > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 13:57:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Dec 20 13:57:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: Message-ID: <3E0392F5.D030CFEB@att.net> Academics are no big fans of non-peer-reviewed books either. Yes, I know there are plenty of errors in peer-reviewed texts and it seems the last Dana had more errata than original pages. But without jumping all around the subject and drifting into tangents, I will clarify that I was referring specifically to mineralogical data in this case; for example, you might find a reference on mindat.org to a mineral being found at a particular locality, but no reference such as an article in American/Canadiam Mineralogist, Min Rec, etc. that is just one example; but you cannot imagine how many times I've asked a question and someone refers me to the very website I found suspicous and for which I was trying to find substantiating data. Don J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > I'm not claiming that everything you find on the Net is high quality, but > that doesn't mean everything in print is fully researched and correct > either. There are plenty of junk books in those libraries. It's just a > little easier to publish trash on the Net since you don't have to convince a > publisher to pay to put your book in print. But no matter how ill informed > some book is, if said publisher thinks it will make money then he or some > other publisher will print it. > > Bryan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 14:48:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Dec 20 14:48:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet In-Reply-To: <3E0392F5.D030CFEB@att.net> Message-ID: There is a item on www.newscientist.com right now that shows that most researchers never bothered to read the citations that they put at the end of their papers. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > Academics are no big fans of non-peer-reviewed books either. Yes, I know > there are plenty of errors in peer-reviewed texts and it seems the last > Dana had more errata than original pages. But without jumping all around > the subject and drifting into tangents, I will clarify that I was > referring specifically to mineralogical data in this case; for example, > you might find a reference on mindat.org to a mineral being found at a > particular locality, but no reference such as an article in > American/Canadiam Mineralogist, Min Rec, etc. that is just one example; > but you cannot imagine how many times I've asked a question and someone > refers me to the very website I found suspicous and for which I was > trying to find substantiating data. > > Don > > J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > > I'm not claiming that everything you find on the Net is high > quality, but > > that doesn't mean everything in print is fully researched and correct > > either. There are plenty of junk books in those libraries. It's just a > > little easier to publish trash on the Net since you don't have > to convince a > > publisher to pay to put your book in print. But no matter how > ill informed > > some book is, if said publisher thinks it will make money then > he or some > > other publisher will print it. > > > > Bryan > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 14:59:07 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Fri Dec 20 14:59:07 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Russian Rare Minerals and more Message-ID: <20021220191220.24484.qmail@web11102.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, I had to take a day off work to finally get a list made up of a collection of Russian Minerals I picked up while in Denver. There are also a number of nice specimens of bornite, cassiterite, axinite, datolite, and tennatite from Russia on my Minerals Lists page. Most of the rare mineral specimens are from Kola Peninsula including nearly a dozen from the type locality. For the UV collectors out there the Lorenzenite glow a nice yellow with in a pinkish feldspar matrix. A number of the other pieces also fluoresce several with more than one color. I also went through my other rare minerals stock to complete the update of the Rare Minerals page. This is easily the best selection of rare species I have ever had. You can get to the Rare Minerals page from the following link; http://emineralshow.com/rare.htm I hope you all have a happy holiday season and a great New Year. Regards, Stan ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 15:04:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Dec 20 15:04:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: Message-ID: <3E03A2A3.C010ECF3@att.net> That doesn't mean we should give up. Someone needs to step in and uphold the standard. That's why there's us. We can treat research as it should be, to show people what it can be. Don J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > There is a item on www.newscientist.com right now that shows that most > researchers never bothered to read the citations that they put at the end of > their papers. > > Bryan > > > > > Academics are no big fans of non-peer-reviewed books either. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 17:06:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Dec 20 17:06:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Andesine crystals - Where are they from? Message-ID: <84.52bb93d.2b351844@aol.com> Dear List, I received an inquiry about "Where do they find free-standing andesine crystals worth talking about?" I supplied the following story, but was wondering if there are any alpine cleft occurrences or other places where you can find good crystals. Happy Holidays, Van The Sanford, York County, Maine andesine locality is on the eastern end of school street. There are three principal pits. The Webster prospect is named for John White Webster who first blasted at the locality sometime in the 1840's. John White Webster was Irving Professor of Chemistry at Harvard University. In 1849, Webster was arrested for the murder of Francis Parkman to whom Webster was indebted to the level of one or two year's equivalent of a professor's salary. [Webster was hanged for the crime, but it is reasonable that he was innocent based on current standards of criminal law. They did find a partial body which was "identified" as Parkman's but there are many complicating issues to tell the whole story here.] It is generally believed that Webster used some of this loan money to finance his mining in Sanford. Webster's object was to acquire what was then some of the world's finest, if not largest, terminated vesuvianite crystals. By the 1850's crystallographers everywhere were illustrating their systematic mineralogy works with Sanford vesuvianite. As part of the suite of minerals found, there were milky white andesine crystals (largest I've seen are 2 x 0.8 x 0.8 cm; formerly identified as anorthite), world-class clinozoisite (then identified as epidote), diopside crystals (less than 1 cm), and meionite (then called scapolite) crystals. A host of minor accessory minerals are known from the prospect. The ledge is in contact with a basalt dike and the adjacent calc-silicate unit is extensively contact metamorphosed. The massive vesuvianite in the dump is nearly unique in the world. In the 1940's, the pit was back-filled. The location has also been called the Goodale prospect after a later mineral enthusiast and college professor (Stephen L. Goodale) who was active in the Maine Board of Agriculture, etc. The dike strikes to the Northwest toward a gravel pit. There are two other pits (the 200 meter prospect and the 600 meter prospect) along strike which have produced good specimens and a variety of minerals including very nice low-iron titanite crystals. The names relate to how far from the Webster prospect the other prospects are. Currently, the most productive area is the 600 meter pit. The area is essentially a drive-up area. One night, my late wife, my son Nathan, and I slept out on the ground among the densely grown pine trees. I remember Nathan waking up in the middle of the night and trying to crawl away. This places the field trip in 1975-6. The various minerals are locked in calcite and are revealed by acid leaching. Photographs of good examples of all the species are in Mineralogy of Maine, volume 1. I have collected at the site four or five times and have always found better picking in collector debris than exercising myself. The collectors dramatically undervalue their finds so I have a good suite of their sweat. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 19:59:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (kevin k conroy) Date: Fri Dec 20 19:59:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Russian Rare Minerals and more Message-ID: <002301c2a8a5$bf478200$716d550c@kcmins> Stan, What does the " * " indicate after the mineral name? Thanks! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: Stan Perry To: drizzle rockhounds ; yahoo rockhounds ; egroups rocksandfossils ; e minerals Date: Friday, December 20, 2002 5:00 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Russian Rare Minerals and more >Hi All, > >I had to take a day off work to finally get a list >made up of a collection of Russian Minerals I picked >up while in Denver. There are also a number of nice >specimens of bornite, cassiterite, axinite, datolite, >and tennatite from Russia on my Minerals Lists page. >Most of the rare mineral specimens are from Kola >Peninsula including nearly a dozen from the type >locality. For the UV collectors out there the >Lorenzenite glow a nice yellow with in a pinkish >feldspar matrix. A number of the other pieces also >fluoresce several with more than one color. I also >went through my other rare minerals stock to complete >the update of the Rare Minerals page. This is easily >the best selection of rare species I have ever had. >You can get to the Rare Minerals page from the >following link; > >http://emineralshow.com/rare.htm > >I hope you all have a happy holiday season and a great >New Year. > >Regards, >Stan > > > > >===== >Stan Perry >Our Gangue Minerals >www.emineralshow.com >Ebay seller ID rgangue >e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 20 20:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Fri Dec 20 20:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Russian Rare Minerals and more In-Reply-To: <002301c2a8a5$bf478200$716d550c@kcmins> Message-ID: <20021221042508.26567.qmail@web11107.mail.yahoo.com> Kevin, I'm so glad you pointed that out since it was a mistake. I was using them when making the list to mpreviousiuos listings I had verified were still in stock. I thought I had deleted all of them but I undid some changes to my document while I was typing it and evidently they came back to haunt me. I am going to edit them and use it " * " to mark the Type Locality specimens in the list but I will include a note on the list when I do that. Thanks for checking on me. Thanks, Stan --- kevin k conroy wrote: > Stan, > > What does the " * " indicate after the mineral name? > > Thanks! > Kevin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stan Perry > To: drizzle rockhounds > ; yahoo rockhounds > ; egroups > rocksandfossils > ; e minerals > > Date: Friday, December 20, 2002 5:00 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Russian Rare Minerals and > more > > > >Hi All, > > > >I had to take a day off work to finally get a list > >made up of a collection of Russian Minerals I > picked > >up while in Denver. There are also a number of > nice > >specimens of bornite, cassiterite, axinite, > datolite, > >and tennatite from Russia on my Minerals Lists > page. > >Most of the rare mineral specimens are from Kola > >Peninsula including nearly a dozen from the type > >locality. For the UV collectors out there the > >Lorenzenite glow a nice yellow with in a pinkish > >feldspar matrix. A number of the other pieces also > >fluoresce several with more than one color. I also > >went through my other rare minerals stock to > complete > >the update of the Rare Minerals page. This is > easily > >the best selection of rare species I have ever had. > >You can get to the Rare Minerals page from the > >following link; > > > >http://emineralshow.com/rare.htm > > > >I hope you all have a happy holiday season and a > great > >New Year. > > > >Regards, > >Stan > > > > > > > > > >===== > >Stan Perry > >Our Gangue Minerals > >www.emineralshow.com > >Ebay seller ID rgangue > >e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up > now. > >http://mailplus.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 21 10:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Dec 21 10:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet In-Reply-To: <3E0392F5.D030CFEB@att.net> References: Message-ID: Don, Your point is well understood and accepted, but your example doesn't reflect where that concern could be protected by peer review. The problem I see with your referenced example is that the locality refered to at "mindat.org" isn't referenced in a peer reviewed publication. However, locality data in the peer reviewed publications typically is not "peer reviewed" either. These publications review for the scientific accuracy of the mineralogic and perhaps geologic data. As proof, consider this, I could write an article for the Min. Rec. (which I did in the past when I had to time) and the reviews of the article would be unable to check the locality data because most likely none of the reviewer "experts" would have any firsthand knowledge of the locality. They would of course take note of something "obviously" incorrect, such as describing the occurrence of diamonds in a rhyolite lava, but beyond that they would have no way of knowing if the calcite I'm reporting from the Oldtimer's Delight claim, near Moosebreath, Idaho is actually calcite or siderite or ankerite... On the otherhand, I agree with you, the Internet, specifically the web, has made it easy for people with little accurate knowledge to "publish" all kinds of inaccurate information, and gem, mineral, rock, etc. web pages are full of inaccurate information. There are also many books with errors, but there is a greater chance that any given book would have had some peer review before a publisher was willing to spend the large bucks on publishing it. Regards, Lanny ... I will clarify that I was >referring specifically to mineralogical data in this case; for example, >you might find a reference on mindat.org to a mineral being found at a >particular locality, but no reference such as an article in >American/Canadiam Mineralogist, Min Rec, etc. that is just one example; >but you cannot imagine how many times I've asked a question and someone >refers me to the very website I found suspicous and for which I was >trying to find substantiating data.... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 22 06:15:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Sun Dec 22 06:15:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet Message-ID: <000701c2a9c4$00b15120$34a14bd5@o8o3s6> Lanny, Don, >"mindat.org" isn't referenced in a peer reviewed publication. However, >locality data in the peer reviewed publications typically is not "peer I agree with you that it is hard to get true accurate data. I'm building a mineral/locality database for over 10 years now. I will not publish any data, it is just for my own use and fun. But making it, I discovered the difficulties of judging data on it's reliability. The huge advantage of my system is that I'm the only one entering data. But even then. Some mineral sales lists have really great locality information for some of the rarer species. But is it always correct? Up to a point you must trust the dealers, but I'm not that naive to trust all dealers. Let alone trust everybody, much like mindat.org does. My first impression about mindat.org was pretty good, until I actually tried to find some information. I was looking for silver localities in the Magadan area (Russia). A famous locality there is Nevskoye, type locality of Nevskite. It is situated Omsukchan village. Mindat.org put the locality somewhere near St.Petersburg! That is about 8000km wrong :-( I tried to find one or two other things which also did not coinside with my knowledge. If they can not get stuff that I know right, how can I trust their information I do not know anything about? Unfortunately these problems are as old as collecting itself. Even musea have mis-labeled samples in their collection, probably based on faulty references from the past. As with all information handling internet speeds everything up, so dis-information also travels faster. Finally what about deliberate dis-information? It is well known that some mineral collectors try to hide the true locality of a find by giving a false locality. Classic example is Milarite, which was (and still isn't??) found at Val Mila, but in the ajecent Val Giuv and Val Strem in Switzerland. Internet makes it real easy to spread such dis-information Cheers, Maurice From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 22 07:01:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Dec 22 07:01:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: <000701c2a9c4$00b15120$34a14bd5@o8o3s6> Message-ID: <3E05D466.E4470C20@att.net> Maurice de Graaf wrote: > > Lanny, Don, > > As with all information handling internet speeds > everything up, so dis-information also travels faster. > > Finally what about deliberate dis-information? It is well known that some > mineral collectors try to hide the true locality of a find by giving a false > locality. Classic example is Milarite, which was (and still isn't??) found > at Val Mila, but in the ajecent Val Giuv and Val Strem in Switzerland. > Internet makes it real easy to spread such dis-information Maurice really gets to the heart of the matter. I don't want to drag this out, so I'll conclude by agreeing with what Maurice says: that while there is some hope of review and validation in the published world, there is currently no hope of data integrity on the Internet. Any idiot can post information, and in fact it seems that every idiot does (I'm not just talking about mineralogy; pick a song you like that has hard-to-hear lyrics, then go looking for how many people have posted those lyrics based on what they think they are, and how many differences exist between them; and none of them have disclaimers like "this is what I thought I heard but I'm not sure"). I think this whole thing started because someone said that the Internet was a great source of information that would eventually supplant printed matter, or words to that effect. Unfortunately, the Internet carries the fallacy of authority; i.e., "it must be true because I saw it on the Internet (or, in an e-mail)." What makes me cringe is when I ask, "Where did you get that information," and someone says "this site on the Internet," which prompts my imediate counter-question: "But where did *they* get it?" Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 22 11:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sun Dec 22 11:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Christmas Greetings Message-ID: <000701c2a9ed$f2a77800$6f5204d0@jim> Best wishes to all our friends for a joyous Christmas season. It's been an interesting year, to say the least, and we wish for a better one next year for everyone. Jim & Barb Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.sauktown.com sauktown@adsnet.com or orders@sauktown.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 22 13:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans) Date: Sun Dec 22 13:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: Message-ID: <017301c2a9fd$7574bcc0$d2935251@pandora.be> Lanny wrote: > On the otherhand, I agree with you, the Internet, specifically the web, has > made it easy for people with little accurate knowledge to "publish" all > kinds of inaccurate information, and gem, mineral, rock, etc. web pages are > full of inaccurate information. There are also many books with errors, but > there is a greater chance that any given book would have had some peer > review before a publisher was willing to spend the large bucks on > publishing it. That's exactly what I thought too, until I got the long awaited DANA's System of Mineralogy 8th Edition. Being such a recently published book, I still can not understand the THOUSANDS of errors it contains. A partial error list of this book can even be found ... on the web! So, if you want to have a fine example of a mineralogy book not to trust, here goes. On the other hand, mailing lists like this one are part of the internet. What is the "trust %" of the data published herein? I hope you all agree it is not that bad at all, is it? Or all we all liars? ;-)) So in short, be careful when collecting data, both on and off the internet, but don't put off data that can be found on the internet just because it *might* be erroneous. Cheers, Herwig Herwig Pelckmans Worldwide Mineral Collector Cardijnstraat 12 B-3530 Helchteren Belgium Europe http://www.xlizd.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Dec 22 21:42:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Dec 22 21:42:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eberhard Henkel ? Message-ID: <20021217222727.ISLC20003.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc19> Jurgen, I assume this label did not say "Gerhard" Henkel, of Baden-Baden, who was a prominent collector of fluorescent minerals, and was the source of the information in the "Henkel Glossary of Fluorescent Minerals", published by the Fluorescent Mineral Society in 1989? Dr. Henkel died some time during the 1990's. Sincerely, Pete Modreski, pjmodreski@att.net > Hello, > > recently I received a nice specimen of heulandite + fluorite from > Fiesch, Wallis, CH. The label originates from "Sammlung Eberhard > Henkel". From its appearance I guess it is not very old, maybe 1960's to > 1990's. Does anyone know about this person and the history of his > collection, its hometown, etc. ? > > Thank you! > > Jürgen Wachsmuth > Ulm - Germany > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 23 05:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Dec 23 05:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What's a "free-standing" crystal Message-ID: <6.57073c1.2b386ac3@aol.com> Free-standing crystal requires a bit of explanation, but I chose that term for economy of description. The andesines I spoke of were originally free standing and it is an easy thing to free them from subsequent overgrowth, unlike staurolite crystals in schist, for example. You can sometimes free staurolite from a mica-rich matrix by mechanical or chemical means, but I don't think I'd ever argue that staurolites were ever free-standing. The qualifier, free-standing, was directed at not receiving replies concerning localities where there were phenocrysts in granite for example, although there are some porphyries which contain crystals which weather out cleanly or can be trimmed free of matrix. While I wasn't seeking such occurrences, they would certainly be of interest to mineral collectors. If you know of any andesine phenocrysts which have weathered out of matrix I'd like to know of them also. Season's Greetings, Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 23 13:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Dec 23 13:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet In-Reply-To: <017301c2a9fd$7574bcc0$d2935251@pandora.be> References: Message-ID: Herwig, There is one significant advantage to this list over web pages, and that is this is an active list and if someone includes incorrect information in a message, it is very likely that it will be corrected by another list member (often by several!). I don't know about others, but I try my best with what I write; yet I find errors in my writings and publishings (typically the day I get something back from the printer...). From what I've seen, it doesn't matter who wrote it, who reviewed it or who edited it (even a popular mineral periodical that brags of its 6 levels of review), there will still be errors. Once something is in print incorrectly, it is nearly impossible to correct! Regards, Lanny >On the other hand, mailing lists like this one are part of the internet. >What is the "trust %" of the data published herein? >I hope you all agree it is not that bad at all, is it? >Or all we all liars? ;-)) > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 23 15:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Mon Dec 23 15:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year: Seasons greetings to everyone on the list. I am looking for anyone with information with regard to the 2003 Bloomington, IN swap. I believe it is held each year in June. And and all information regarding dates, location, accomodations, costs etc. would be appreciated. Thank you, Larry Bull _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 23 16:08:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Teague) Date: Mon Dec 23 16:08:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: Larry, Got the flyers in the mail last week about the Bloomington show. Here is the info: Dates: June 27-29, 2003 Location: Monroe County Fairgrounds Southwest of Junction Ind. 37& Ind. 45S 1 2/10 miles on Ind. 45, then 7/10 mile on Airport Road, West of Bloomington Space cost: $2.00 per front foot. Bring your own tables and chairs! Contact to reserve spaces: Margaret Kahrs 9145 W. US Hwy. 50 East Seymour, IN 47274-9401 (812) 522-6093 Camping: $10.00 per night in designated areas Accomodations: most major chains in the Bloomington area, including a couple of Motel 6s for us that try to save a buck! The Bloomington show is a neat one. Reminds me of the swaps of days gone by! Stop by and say "HI!" I'm in the main building, center row. Hard to miss my booth with the UT orange table covers! Hope to see you there! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:27:50 +0000 Lawrence Bull wrote: > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year: > > Seasons greetings to everyone on the list. > > I am looking for anyone with information with > regard to the 2003 > Bloomington, IN swap. I believe it is held > each year in June. > And and all information regarding dates, > location, accomodations, costs etc. > would be appreciated. > > Thank you, > > Larry Bull > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 > months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= > > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 23 17:41:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Dec 23 17:41:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Seasons Greetings!! Message-ID: Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!!=A0 Hope everyone has a wonderful= =20 holiday season, stay safe and warm! =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Jackie :) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 02:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 24 02:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet References: Message-ID: <002b01c2ab3b$8209dda0$0a9d77d5@pandora.be> You don't have to be a "liar" or even careless to spread some "bad" information. There's only so much knowledge one brain can hold and not all brains are equally equipped with RAM (or SIMM or DIMM or whatever) nor do all our brains have the same processor. An enthusiastic young mineral collector may prove to have more talent for designing a great website than he has real knowledge. The look and feel of that site may convince many layman that the science in it is equally robust. Unfortunately, when it comes to science, the Internet is truly like Pandora's box. I have learned that one should scrutinize EVERY piece of knowledge, regardless of it's origin. A nice example: say I have an old book on fluorescence that was published in say 1960. I'm constantly looking for fluorescence activators to put on our MKA-website with a photo of a relevant specimen. Now, in this book I found that the fluorescence of topaz is likely to be attributed to the element Germanium. OK, that was then... those days were the advent of a whole series of new and sensitive techniques for chemical analyses, but also the advent of the understanding of fluorescence. Everybody was looking for new "activators" but the real mechanism behind a fluorescence was often guessed after... More recent books have much more information on all kinds of fluorescing minerals and their activators but they are silent about topaz and germanium... Should I put the germanium-story on the website regardless? I DO have a book that says it... and the author still IS a scientist. Maybe germanium IS the activator of fluorescing topaz... I don't know but whether or not I should publish that information is open to debate. For the time being, I think I'll sit on it (and I don't want to hear about the haemorrhoid-healing powers of topaz 8oD))))))) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet | Herwig, | | There is one significant advantage to this list over web pages, and that is | this is an active list and if someone includes incorrect information in a | message, it is very likely that it will be corrected by another list member | (often by several!). | | I don't know about others, but I try my best with what I write; yet I find | errors in my writings and publishings (typically the day I get something | back from the printer...). From what I've seen, it doesn't matter who wrote | it, who reviewed it or who edited it (even a popular mineral periodical | that brags of its 6 levels of review), there will still be errors. Once | something is in print incorrectly, it is nearly impossible to correct! | | Regards, | | Lanny | | | >On the other hand, mailing lists like this one are part of the internet. | >What is the "trust %" of the data published herein? | >I hope you all agree it is not that bad at all, is it? | >Or all we all liars? ;-)) | > | | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com | Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing | Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and | mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index | and The Mineral Database | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 03:48:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Tue Dec 24 03:48:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Sometimes the absolute "truth" is quite complex, and any simple explanation can be at least incomplete. Once (about 15 years ago) I sold a specimen with microcrystalline sartorite from the Lengenbach Quarry, Binntal, Wallis, Switzerland. I had that very specimen X-rayed before, so I was 100 % sure about the identity. A few weeks later the gentleman who bought it came up with the message that he had X-rayed it, and came to the conclusion that it was in fact baumhauerite. Both sulfosalts have quite different X-ray patterns. After carefull investigation lateron we found out that one part of the sulfosalt patch was sartorite, the other baumhauerite. In fact the only thing you can be sure of is the identity of the part of the sample that you actually analysed... I admit this cas was due to Murphy himself... Best regards, Rik -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of lanny@mineralnews.com Sent: 23 December, 2002 10:34 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Trusting the Internet Herwig, There is one significant advantage to this list over web pages, and that is this is an active list and if someone includes incorrect information in a message, it is very likely that it will be corrected by another list member (often by several!). I don't know about others, but I try my best with what I write; yet I find errors in my writings and publishings (typically the day I get something back from the printer...). From what I've seen, it doesn't matter who wrote it, who reviewed it or who edited it (even a popular mineral periodical that brags of its 6 levels of review), there will still be errors. Once something is in print incorrectly, it is nearly impossible to correct! Regards, Lanny >On the other hand, mailing lists like this one are part of the internet. >What is the "trust %" of the data published herein? >I hope you all agree it is not that bad at all, is it? >Or all we all liars? ;-)) > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 06:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Tue Dec 24 06:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021224143715.4973.qmail@web11106.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Larry and All, I see John T. answered most of your questions about the show. I highly recommend it as a great place to find interesting specimens at good prices. If you want a little better feel for the show you can check out my show report on the 2001 Bloomington, Indiana Show/Swap at the following link; http://www.emineralshow.com/show2.htm Hope to see many of you there next year. Cheers, Stan --- Lawrence Bull wrote: > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year: > > Seasons greetings to everyone on the list. > > I am looking for anyone with information with regard > to the 2003 > Bloomington, IN swap. I believe it is held each > year in June. > And and all information regarding dates, location, > accomodations, costs etc. > would be appreciated. > > Thank you, > > Larry Bull > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= > > http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 14:04:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Tue Dec 24 14:04:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: Hello: Thank you Stan and John for your responses and the information. I do hope to make it out there in 2003. Thanks again, Larry Bull >From: "John Teague" >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] (no subject) >Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:07:28 -0500 > >Larry, > >Got the flyers in the mail last week about the >Bloomington show. > >Here is the info: > >Dates: June 27-29, 2003 > >Location: Monroe County Fairgrounds > Southwest of Junction Ind. 37& Ind. 45S > 1 2/10 miles on Ind. 45, then > 7/10 mile on Airport Road, West of > Bloomington > >Space cost: $2.00 per front foot. Bring your > own tables and chairs! > >Contact to reserve spaces: > Margaret Kahrs > 9145 W. US Hwy. 50 East > Seymour, IN 47274-9401 > (812) 522-6093 > >Camping: $10.00 per night in designated areas > >Accomodations: most major chains in the > Bloomington area, including a > couple of Motel 6s for us that try > to save a buck! > >The Bloomington show is a neat one. Reminds me of >the swaps of days gone by! Stop by and say "HI!" >I'm in the main building, center row. Hard to >miss my booth with the UT orange table covers! >Hope to see you there! > >John Teague >Volunteer Gems >Knoxville, Tennessee >http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > >On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:27:50 +0000 Lawrence Bull >wrote: > > > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year: > > > > Seasons greetings to everyone on the list. > > > > I am looking for anyone with information with > > regard to the 2003 > > Bloomington, IN swap. I believe it is held > > each year in June. > > And and all information regarding dates, > > location, accomodations, costs etc. > > would be appreciated. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Larry Bull > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 3 > > months FREE*. > > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= > > > > >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_stopmorespam_3mf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 18:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 24 18:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Merry Christmas Message-ID: <3E091323.332B@Tomaszewski.net> May the Joy of this season be in your hearts always and help bring Peace to our World. I thank all of you for your gifts of knowledge and friendship this past year and hope that the coming year is better than the last for you. Merry Christmas, and may you find rocks in your stockings in the morning. Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 21:19:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Masters) Date: Tue Dec 24 21:19:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Holiday Greetings Message-ID: <3E08075B.D3AB79E0@cox.net> And to all a Good Night, Please share my home for this holiday season. My wishes to one and all, a wonderful Holiday and a very Happy New Year, Terrie > > A Merry Christmas House for you > > > > Click here: > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 24 23:32:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Dec 24 23:32:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Holiday Greetings Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021222182137.021a9d40@mail.aloha.net> Greetings, all, Whether one is religious or not, at this time of year most people celebrate generosity, friendship, harmony, peace, and some kind of worship. All of us on this list are fascinated by the rocks, minerals, and fossils that we encounter on this earth. I believe that this interest is a kind of affirmation for the marvels of this world, and some might call it praise for a creator. It is not just an eccentricity of a strange group of people (what! Rockhounds eccentric? strange?), but a sign of humans who appreciate the wonders of our planet and our universe. When we smile at one of our treasures, and when we share them with others---especially children---our own lives and even our health are improved, as well as those with whom we share. So since this is the time of year to share good will with all creatures great and small, then I think a list of rockhounds is a great place to do just that! (Pardon my verbosity!) Please accept Bill's and my best wishes to you all for health, happiness, and most of all, PEACE in the new year. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 12/17/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 25 09:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Pete Richards) Date: Wed Dec 25 09:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Advent calender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just yesterday found out about a site in Switzerland, associated with the Basel Mineral Society, which has a mineralogically oriented Advent calendar. Although it's in German, the pictures are universal and the mineral names mostly cognates. It's an impressive effort, though with a few errors, and I invite you to browse it. Go to http://www.mineralien-basel.ch/ and click on Adventkalender. On my Mac, at least, the windows are not numbered, but by now you can open any of them as you like! Merry Christmas, Pete Richards -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 25 18:08:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Dec 25 18:08:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I thought this would be of interest to the list since some of member were involved in the affair. The link was really long and the article short so I just put the whole thing below. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" ------------------------------------------------------------------- ORLANDO, Fla. -- Three student employees at the Johnson Space Center in Houston have pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to steal moon rocks collected by Apollo astronauts. Tiffany Fowler, Thad Roberts and Shae Saur pleaded guilty in federal court in Orlando last week to conspiracy to commit theft and interstate transportation of stolen property. Undercover FBI agents arrested Roberts, 25, Fowler, 22, and a fourth defendant, Gordon McWhorter, 26, in Orlando in July. Saur, 19, was arrested in Houston the same day. The student workers were fired after the arrests. McWhorter, a college friend of Roberts, is scheduled for trial in February. Investigators say the group placed an ad in May on the Web site of the Mineralogy Club of Antwerp, Belgium, offering to sell "priceless moon rocks" collected by Apollo astronauts in 1969 and the early 1970s for $1,000 to $5,000 a gram. Two months later, a safe containing moon rocks from every Apollo mission was discovered missing from the space center. Officials said the inventory offered by the suspects came from the safe. Copyright C 2002, The Associated Press From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Dec 25 21:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (brett shaffer) Date: Wed Dec 25 21:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Site and name change Message-ID: <20021226054406.64216.qmail@web14707.mail.yahoo.com> Hello All: The Mineral Vug site and business has gone its own way. Due to my inability to do shows 4-5 times a year in the future, The Mineral Vug will become simply Mineral Vug and be owned by Robert Storms selling minerals at shows. I will be initiating a new web mineral gallery featuring mineral specimens classified by name and size. The new site will be called Treasures From The Vug and will be in operation on Jan. 1, 2003. The new site url will be www.angelfire.com/tn3/minerals . Thank you for our customer loyalty in the past check us both out in the future. My site email address will be treasuresfromthevug@yahoo.com . Regards and Happy Holidays1 Brett Shaffer Treasures From The Vug www.angelfire.com/tn3/minerals --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 08:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Thu Dec 26 08:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bryan, we were indeed very involved and ergo still VERY interested in what's happening... We have followed every detail during the last 6 months, of course. I would be interested in the link (off list), if you have it at hand. In the meantime, my best wishes for a happy, peaceful and succesful 2003 to all of you. Best regards, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show 10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: 26 December, 2002 3:07 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update I thought this would be of interest to the list since some of member were involved in the affair. The link was really long and the article short so I just put the whole thing below. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" ------------------------------------------------------------------- ORLANDO, Fla. -- Three student employees at the Johnson Space Center in Houston have pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to steal moon rocks collected by Apollo astronauts. Tiffany Fowler, Thad Roberts and Shae Saur pleaded guilty in federal court in Orlando last week to conspiracy to commit theft and interstate transportation of stolen property. Undercover FBI agents arrested Roberts, 25, Fowler, 22, and a fourth defendant, Gordon McWhorter, 26, in Orlando in July. Saur, 19, was arrested in Houston the same day. The student workers were fired after the arrests. McWhorter, a college friend of Roberts, is scheduled for trial in February. Investigators say the group placed an ad in May on the Web site of the Mineralogy Club of Antwerp, Belgium, offering to sell "priceless moon rocks" collected by Apollo astronauts in 1969 and the early 1970s for $1,000 to $5,000 a gram. Two months later, a safe containing moon rocks from every Apollo mission was discovered missing from the space center. Officials said the inventory offered by the suspects came from the safe. Copyright C 2002, The Associated Press _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 12:08:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Dec 26 12:08:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tokyo Mineral Show In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20021122124450.0280b2f8@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: Hi All... I've posted a handful of pictures from my recent visit to a mineral show in Tokyo earlier this month. Go to my web site at: http://www.catspaw-minerals.com and click on the "Tokyo Show" button at the left. You can click on a thumbnail to see a big picture. The special theme was Japan Law Twins and there are some HUMONGOUS specimens there! I didn't buy that much...prices were WAY high. I did, however, see a lot of things that I really coveted. Unfortunately, a lot of booth people wouldn't let me take photos of their killer pieces . GcB PS. I've got a BUNCH of MasMils/PLUS Mine CD-ROMs up on eBay now. Help me pay for the Sushi making materials I brought home! Yum! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4259&item=2151335363 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14955&item=1947682770 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4668&item=1947682893 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 13:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Dec 26 13:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: Message-ID: <002301c2ad24$e10934a0$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> The Mineralogy Club of Antwerp being a translation of "Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen". I wonder... wouldn't "Antwerp Mineralogical Society" be a more accurate translation of the Flemish name of our club? BTW, who came up with "Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen" the first time? Anybody remember? As a last update of this story I may add the following (for those who didn't know already ;-) : Sauer and Fowler already plead "guilty" on Dec. 12. The next day Roberts did the same. The only evildoer who still wants to go to trial is McWhorter. His trial is scheduled early Feb.. Maybe he'll see things in another perspective after spending the holidays behind bars? Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 3:06 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update | I thought this would be of interest to the list since some of member were | involved in the affair. The link was really long and the article short so I | just put the whole thing below. | | Bryan | | "Si vis pacem para bellum" | | ------------------------------------------------------------------- | | ORLANDO, Fla. -- Three student employees at the Johnson Space Center in | Houston have pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to steal moon rocks | collected by Apollo astronauts. | | Tiffany Fowler, Thad Roberts and Shae Saur pleaded guilty in federal court | in Orlando last week to conspiracy to commit theft and interstate | transportation of stolen property. | | Undercover FBI agents arrested Roberts, 25, Fowler, 22, and a fourth | defendant, Gordon McWhorter, 26, in Orlando in July. Saur, 19, was arrested | in Houston the same day. The student workers were fired after the arrests. | | McWhorter, a college friend of Roberts, is scheduled for trial in February. | | Investigators say the group placed an ad in May on the Web site of the | Mineralogy Club of Antwerp, Belgium, offering to sell "priceless moon rocks" | collected by Apollo astronauts in 1969 and the early 1970s for $1,000 to | $5,000 a gram. | | Two months later, a safe containing moon rocks from every Apollo mission was | discovered missing from the space center. Officials said the inventory | offered by the suspects came from the safe. | Copyright C 2002, The Associated Press | | | | | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 13:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Dec 26 13:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update In-Reply-To: <002301c2ad24$e10934a0$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Well I don't know about European reporters but here in the US journalism school graduates are not normally among the best and the brightest. Just be grateful that they figured out what country Antwerp is in. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > The Mineralogy Club of Antwerp being a translation of > "Mineralogische Kring > Antwerpen". I wonder... wouldn't "Antwerp Mineralogical Society" be a more > accurate translation of the Flemish name of our club? BTW, who > came up with > "Mineralogische Kring > Antwerpen" the first time? Anybody remember? > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 14:19:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Thu Dec 26 14:19:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: 26 December, 2002 10:24 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update > The Mineralogy Club of Antwerp being a translation of "Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen". I wonder... wouldn't "Antwerp Mineralogical Society" be a more accurate translation of the Flemish name of our club? BTW, who came up with "Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen" the first time? Anybody remember? >>>>> When the club was founded back in 1963 the official name was "Mineralogische Kring van Antwerpen" (Mineralogical Society of Antwerp). Lateron it was "modernised" to "Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen" (Mineralogical Society Antwerp). BTW I was not present in 1963. I joined only in 1968 or so. At that moment there were about 15-20 members, now something like 400 ! Greetings, Rik _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 18:54:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Thu Dec 26 18:54:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: Message-ID: <3E0BC189.62D0392@att.net> As my professor always said, Axel, "there is a difference between translation and transliteration." I don't really know Flemish grammar, and I'm reluctant to guess based upon knowledge of Duits or Nederlands, but if I had to guess at all I'd say the "of" is implied in the "Antwerpen" by what we call the genitive case; or perhaps a modified form of the dative case. Either way, it is good form to add the "of" in transliteration from other languages into English. Well, you did ask . . . Don > > The Mineralogy Club of Antwerp being a translation of > > "Mineralogische Kring > > Antwerpen". I wonder... wouldn't "Antwerp Mineralogical Society" be a more > > accurate translation of the Flemish name of our club? BTW, who > > came up with > > "Mineralogische Kring > > Antwerpen" the first time? Anybody remember? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 19:41:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 26 19:41:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: Message-ID: <3E0BCB8D.5611@Tomaszewski.net> CNN also carried the story, with slightly different facts... http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/12/24/moon.rocks/index.html Rik Dillen wrote: > > Thanks, Bryan, we were indeed very involved and ergo still VERY interested > in what's happening... > We have followed every detail during the last 6 months, of course. > I would be interested in the link (off list), if you have it at hand. > In the meantime, my best wishes for a happy, peaceful and succesful 2003 to > all of you. > Best regards, > > Rik DILLEN > Doornstraat 15 > B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium > > Tel. + 32 3 7706007 > E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > > Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > > >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) > >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! > >>> Exchange list > > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! > > MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show > 10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer > Sent: 26 December, 2002 3:07 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update > > I thought this would be of interest to the list since some of member were > involved in the affair. The link was really long and the article short so I > just put the whole thing below. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ORLANDO, Fla. -- Three student employees at the Johnson Space Center in > Houston have pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to steal moon rocks > collected by Apollo astronauts. > > Tiffany Fowler, Thad Roberts and Shae Saur pleaded guilty in federal court > in Orlando last week to conspiracy to commit theft and interstate > transportation of stolen property. > > Undercover FBI agents arrested Roberts, 25, Fowler, 22, and a fourth > defendant, Gordon McWhorter, 26, in Orlando in July. Saur, 19, was arrested > in Houston the same day. The student workers were fired after the arrests. > > McWhorter, a college friend of Roberts, is scheduled for trial in February. > > Investigators say the group placed an ad in May on the Web site of the > Mineralogy Club of Antwerp, Belgium, offering to sell "priceless moon rocks" > collected by Apollo astronauts in 1969 and the early 1970s for $1,000 to > $5,000 a gram. > > Two months later, a safe containing moon rocks from every Apollo mission was > discovered missing from the space center. Officials said the inventory > offered by the suspects came from the safe. > Copyright C 2002, The Associated Press > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 > Content-Length: 4044 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 20:22:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Thu Dec 26 20:22:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: <3E0BCB8D.5611@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <3E0BD613.C30FC02F@att.net> A firm correction has now been sent to CNN. Thanks, Kreigh, for pointing out this version of the story. The only reason I can imagine they are downplaying the role of the Belgians, and the reason NASA has been unresponsive regarding acknowledgement, is that the goevrnment is embarrassed about the whole thing and probably wishes the story would go away. Don Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > CNN also carried the story, with slightly different facts... > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/12/24/moon.rocks/index.html > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Dec 26 21:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 26 21:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: <3E0BCB8D.5611@Tomaszewski.net> <3E0BD613.C30FC02F@att.net> Message-ID: <3E0BDE1C.3FBA@Tomaszewski.net> It is not too late to wake up the US Government and get Axel an honorary moonrock for his initiative and efforts that led to the recovery of a priceless legacy of all mankind. Send an email of support to President Bush and NASA; details at... http://www.Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/MoonRocks.shtml Share the story with your friends, and ask them to pass it on. Kreigh Don H wrote: > > A firm correction has now been sent to CNN. Thanks, Kreigh, for > pointing out this version of the story. > > The only reason I can imagine they are downplaying the role of the > Belgians, and the reason NASA has been unresponsive regarding > acknowledgement, is that the goevrnment is embarrassed about the whole > thing and probably wishes the story would go away. > > Don > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > CNN also carried the story, with slightly different facts... > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/12/24/moon.rocks/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 02:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Dec 27 02:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: <3E0BCB8D.5611@Tomaszewski.net> <3E0BD613.C30FC02F@att.net> Message-ID: <003b01c2ad97$402c30a0$1b9c77d5@pandora.be> Hi Don, not entirely so, I must say. I received a GLOWING "thank you" letter from the director of the FBI. Straight from Pennsylvania Av., Washington DC. I had it framed and it is now hanging on my living room wall. There has also been a summary of instances where NASA has been duped or robbed in the past AND the incentive to do something about it on NASA's own website. The heist was frontpage on the FBI website too! Now that would be a real stupid thing to do if you wanted to cover it up, don't you think? I believe that the reason that I received no official response from NASA or any other official organization (except the FBI but those were involved more directly and on a much more personal level) lies probably herein that the sentencing of the evildoers has yet to take place and one of them has to go to trial first (unless he folds and pleads guilty first like the others did). The measure of time that they will have to do in prison is directly related to the value of the objects they stole. The lawyers of the MR-thieves propose the idea that the rocks have no value since you cannot legally own them. Something that can't be sold, can't be priced either. Naturally, the same lawyers are watching any move from NASA. If NASA gives me as much as a handshake they will jump up and shout "behold, there has been compensation and thus determination of the value of the stolen property". Of course, that is what I THINK is going on. I do know however that NASA IS concerned. I received a phone call from a NASA scientist who thanked me extensively and told me much about the story that I didn't knew at the time. Basically I do not think that anyone is hushing this up.... Just wait and see... Act like me and have a little faith! If I can be patient, so can you! Think of it my way: I never did this for money. Turning those criminals in was the right thing to do and so I did it. But as soon as the story hit the papers and newschannels, EVERYBODY started patting me on the shoulder telling me how lucky I am because the finders fee of "priceless" objects must be huge. Yeah right, that 'll be the day, little ol' me thinks. Still, EVERYBODY keeps insisting there will be serious compensation. Guys, I don't know... really, I don't. And I wish I could say I don't care but hey... I'm as human as the next guy and although I did what I did for only the right reasons I would not turn down any compensation. I won't ask for it but I will accept was is given to me. Now here's my point: have any of you any idea how it feels like to now that you may have the right number combination on your lottery ticket but you have to wait 6 or 7 months to find out if and what you've won... a handshake, a thank-you-letter, a moonrock or some dust, a financial reward, a medal, a pat on the back? I'm OK with either of them but yeah... I can understand that y'all get a little impatient (grin... hmmm on second thought: ROFL) Now y'all keep calm, folks! (Don't panic, woman-folks and children-folks first!!!) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update | | A firm correction has now been sent to CNN. Thanks, Kreigh, for | pointing out this version of the story. | | The only reason I can imagine they are downplaying the role of the | Belgians, and the reason NASA has been unresponsive regarding | acknowledgement, is that the goevrnment is embarrassed about the whole | thing and probably wishes the story would go away. | | Don | | Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: | > | > CNN also carried the story, with slightly different facts... | > | > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/12/24/moon.rocks/index.html | > | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 02:54:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Dec 27 02:54:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: <3E0BC189.62D0392@att.net> Message-ID: <004101c2ad97$d90efbe0$1b9c77d5@pandora.be> I asked for that... Hmmm... transliterations? I like transmutations even better: It's like having dyslexia and reading "a rope ends it" instead of "desperation"... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 3:57 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update | | As my professor always said, Axel, "there is a difference between | translation and transliteration." I don't really know Flemish grammar, | and I'm reluctant to guess based upon knowledge of Duits or Nederlands, | but if I had to guess at all I'd say the "of" is implied in the | "Antwerpen" by what we call the genitive case; or perhaps a modified | form of the dative case. Either way, it is good form to add the "of" in | transliteration from other languages into English. | | Well, you did ask . . . | | Don | | | > > The Mineralogy Club of Antwerp being a translation of | > > "Mineralogische Kring | > > Antwerpen". I wonder... wouldn't "Antwerp Mineralogical Society" be a more | > > accurate translation of the Flemish name of our club? BTW, who | > > came up with | > > "Mineralogische Kring | > > Antwerpen" the first time? Anybody remember? | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 10:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Fri Dec 27 10:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions Message-ID: I just got some "Columbian Amber" in an eBay auction. I know you all have seen a bunch of it listed... A couple of questions: Is this stuff really amber, or have I probably bought a parcel of copal? Here... let me hold a piece up to the monitor so you can see it . Secondly, there are a bunch of 3-4cm sized pieces that I was thinking of running through my vibratory tumbler. What grits/polishes should I use on this stuff? I have a feeling my usual grit sequence would be less than appropriate. What about polishing the larger, 10 cm-ish, size pieces? As always, thanks in advance! Regards, Gary --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 11:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Masters) Date: Fri Dec 27 11:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Moonrock update References: <3E0BCB8D.5611@Tomaszewski.net> <3E0BD613.C30FC02F@att.net> <003b01c2ad97$402c30a0$1b9c77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3E0CA5A5.C3FB25D3@cox.net> Axel, Intact, you have your sense of humor, pride, integrity, humility, the respect of your peers world-wide. Anything else would be icing on the cake, which we all know is fattening, of the belly and the head. We are all very proud of your efforts. Thanks, Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 11:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Fri Dec 27 11:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions Message-ID: Hi Gary, I assume this "amber" is from Colombia, not Columbia. If so it's almost certainly copal rather than true amber. Perhaps 8-10 years ago there was a lot of it on the market, and pieces still turn up. Many of them had been dipped in acetone to remove the oxidized surface coating and "improve" their appearance; they look like pale yellow plastic. Not much value to this stuff, but an interesting occurrence of a natural resin in any case. Cheers- Earl Verbeek _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 11:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Fri Dec 27 11:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yup, ColOmbia. Hey, they're both vowels! And, yes, cheap. After I bid on it I thought... hey...bet this stuff is copal. Too late! Once the digit hits the key it is DONE. I figure that "worst case" my little nephew will get a kick out of prepping the material. Even if it is young (what are we talking here...couple hundred thou?) it still will illustrate the trapping-the-insects bit. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of earl verbeek > Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:20 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions > > > > Hi Gary, > > I assume this "amber" is from Colombia, not Columbia. If so it's almost > certainly copal rather than true amber. Perhaps 8-10 years ago > there was a > lot of it on the market, and pieces still turn up. Many of them had been > dipped in acetone to remove the oxidized surface coating and > "improve" their > appearance; they look like pale yellow plastic. Not much value to this > stuff, but an interesting occurrence of a natural resin in any case. > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 14:02:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Max L. Carter) Date: Fri Dec 27 14:02:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Quartzite Powwow Message-ID: <000a01c2ac6e$036c3b80$1e94bbd0@Prodigy.net> Dr. Bowser, As a resident of Henderson, NV I recently discovered from my brother = that the Powwow is held in our area each year. In fact, he informed = that it may be going on this weekend. Desiring to get into = rockhounding, but not having any local contacts I would enjoy knowing = where the Powwow is held and any contacts that may be available in the = Henderson/Las Vegas area. I appreciate all your help. Dr. Max L. Carter =20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Dec 27 15:36:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Fri Dec 27 15:36:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Quartzite Powwow References: <000a01c2ac6e$036c3b80$1e94bbd0@Prodigy.net> Message-ID: <3E0CE404.F79E0C9A@earthlink.net> You couldn't have picked a better time to ask this question :) http://www.quartzsite.com/ has dates on all the shows including the numerous gem and mineral shows such as the PowWow. Things start rolling down there in about 10 days. also has link for Cloud's show in Laughlin: http://www.cloudsjamboree.com/ If you get out to the Cloud's show at the Avi reservation outside Laughlin, stop and see Leonard at Leonard's Backyard Rock Shop and tell him Dean and Teresa say hi! We used to live near his shop in Arkansas and spent many many many hours (and dollars lol) there! He has always had quality minerals and jewelry. Teresa Otis "Max L. Carter" wrote: > > Dr. Bowser, > As a resident of Henderson, NV I recently discovered from my brother that the Powwow is held in our area each year. In fact, he informed that it may be going on this weekend. Desiring to get into rockhounding, but not having any local contacts I would enjoy knowing where the Powwow is held and any contacts that may be available in the Henderson/Las Vegas area. I appreciate all your help. > > Dr. Max L. Carter > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 28 05:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Sat Dec 28 05:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - Ebay auctions Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20021228133328.007b0610@popmail.libero.it> Hi there, visit our ebay auctions ! nice celestite from Italy and stibnite from Romania ! http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=italianmi nerals&completed=0&sort=2&since=-1&include=0&page=1&rows=25 regards and have a great 2003 !!! ================================= Italian Minerals http://www.ItalianMinerals.com ================================= From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Dec 28 08:54:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Sat Dec 28 08:54:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions References: Message-ID: <001e01c2ae91$55d4de20$2d1fbed8@powertech.net> > Yup, ColOmbia. Hey, they're both vowels! > > And, yes, cheap. After I bid on it I thought... hey...bet this stuff is > copal. Too late! Once the digit hits the key it is DONE. I figure that > "worst case" my little nephew will get a kick out of prepping the material. > Even if it is young (what are we talking here...couple hundred thou?) it > still will illustrate the trapping-the-insects bit. > > GcB I assume you've checked to make sure it isn't plastic? There have been some great scams committed from down that way. The best one that comes to mind is the really super-great very real-looking one with a beautiful insect -- and the only way they could tell it was a scam was that someone discovered that it was a *modern* insect! Margaret > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of earl verbeek > > Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:20 PM > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions > > > > > > > > Hi Gary, > > > > I assume this "amber" is from Colombia, not Columbia. If so it's almost > > certainly copal rather than true amber. Perhaps 8-10 years ago > > there was a > > lot of it on the market, and pieces still turn up. Many of them had been > > dipped in acetone to remove the oxidized surface coating and > > "improve" their > > appearance; they look like pale yellow plastic. Not much value to this > > stuff, but an interesting occurrence of a natural resin in any case. > > > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 30 09:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim and Carolyn Ebsary) Date: Mon Dec 30 09:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Alborine and Catlinite Message-ID: <000b01c2b02a$867191a0$e47505d1@jimcarolyn> Hello all Does anyone know where I can get some Alborine and/or Catlinite? I have a friend that lives in London ON that's looking for some, suitable for carving. Cheers Jim Ebsary From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 30 18:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Dec 30 18:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amber from Columbia - two questions Message-ID: Don't know if this site is good for you, but I found it of interest on the topic: http://3dotstudio.com/amberfaq.html best of luck! -Ron http://hammerron.com/minerals In a message dated 12/27/2002 1:47:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com writes: > I just got some "Columbian Amber" in an eBay auction. I know you all have > seen a bunch of it listed... A couple of questions: > > Is this stuff really amber, or have I probably bought a parcel of copal? > Here... let me hold a piece up to the monitor so you can see it . > > Secondly, there are a bunch of 3-4cm sized pieces that I was thinking of > running through my vibratory tumbler. What grits/polishes should I use on > this stuff? I have a feeling my usual grit sequence would be less than > appropriate. What about polishing the larger, 10 cm-ish, size pieces? > > As always, thanks in advance! > > Regards, > Gary > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Dec 30 19:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Thomas Yancey) Date: Mon Dec 30 19:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity Message-ID: Folks, I would like to share a few observations on the fate of some hanksite crystals in conditions of a humid atmosphere. A few years ago I acquired some hanksite crystals in trade and decided to try some different simple treatments to see if it would retard the slow deliquescent deterioration that affects hanksite. I live in an area of relatively high humidity and had a few extra crystals on which to experiment. Beautiful crystals of hanksite occur in the muds of Searles Lake, California at a shallow depth below the surface. They are available in abundance for people attending the fall field event held at Trona, when lake mud is pumped out and spread on the lake bed for people to pick through. My interest in this comes from watching two hanksite crystals slowly absorb water and eventually becoming rounded and losing their crystal faces. Furthermore, they were glued to the styrofoam base of a thumbnail box, using white glue, which failed as the surface absorbed water and had to be remounted. They were kept in thumbnail boxes for 25 years, partly residing in the relatively less humid conditions of the intermountain states, then moving to the more humid regions of the coastal plains. The crystals were not treated and acquired a white powdery alteration product on the surface, so had to be rubbed clean or washed a couple times. The new batch of hanksite crystals arrived with some adhering mud, now very dried and hard to remove. To be incorporated in my mineral collection, I wanted them clean and mounted in thumbnail boxes. Some crystals could be cleaned mechanically, but others had to have some areas of mud wetted to remove it, so the crystals of the group did not have the same history of treatment. Also, this was about 18 months after they had been collected. About half of the crystals are clear to whitish and about half are darker with small amounts of included mud. The clearer ones have pyramidal terminations while the darker ones are more barrel-like with flat terminations on the pyramid or are equant in overall form. One set of three clearer crystals of irregular form and low desirability was left exposed to the atmosphere. Of the three, one had no treatment, one was lightly coated with mineral oil and one was lightly coated with petroleum jelly. After three years of exposure, the only thing I can interpret is that the largest crystal - which had no treatment - had the least amount of surface alteration. The smallest - with one coating of mineral oil - had the most surface alteration. Conclusion: a light coating of either material did not help prevent deterioration. To have an effect, the coating would have to be thick and unsightly. Three clear crystals had been mounted in Perky-style thumbnail boxes and three darker crystals had also been mounted in boxes. Of each group, one each had no coating, one each had a light coating of mineral oil, and one each had a light coating of petroleum jelly. All mounted crystals show some minor surface alteration, but as expected, much less than the crystals directly exposed to the atmosphere. The boxes had not been opened since mounting, so there was pretty constant humidity conditions in the boxes. The darker crystals seem to show the white surface alteration more, but are probably no more affected than the clearer ones. For the boxed crystals, there seems to be little difference between the coating types and the uncoated ones. Again, the smallest one seemed to have fared slightly worse than the others, leading me to think that a larger size might correlate with better survival and condition. A thin coating of mineral oil or petroleum jelly was not very effective. I conclude that to have a real benefit, either a heavier coating is needed or frequent rubbing and re-coating is needed. The methods tried will not prevent the slow deterioration of the crystals, but more drastic steps seem unnecessary when replacement crystals are relatively easy to acquire. The crystals were mounted on a base with mineral tack. This has held pretty well and it has not allowed the crystals to droop from their mounted position. I dislike using mineral tack as a mounting medium, since it is miserable to clean from a crystal when it ages (and older mineral tack often bleeds oil), but the failure of white glue to hold meant trying another approach. Anyone else have observations on deliquescing minerals? Tom Yancey From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 06:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 31 06:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] recommended fluids for contstant temp. circulating baths? Message-ID: <20021231140802.QMCQ9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> Hello, Building the mineralogy lab has become quite an experience. One of the last pieces of the puzzle was to create a constant temperature circulator for use in the Zeiss Abbe refractometer, the pycnometer, and Le Chatelier SG vessel. Of course, precise specific gravity and refractive index calibrations depend on constant & known temperature; but rather than spend thousands on constant temperature baths, I'd rather spend hundreds on a few NIST-traceable thermometers and use aquarium heaters and small refrigerators to stabilize the liquid temperatures. Obviously this method will not work in a production lab, but I am willing to spend the time adjusting these things at home if it makes the difference between having a nearly research-grade capability vs. none at all. So here is the golden question for the academics among us: is there a special fluid, besides water, that I should use? I know that the commerical baths are called constant temperature *water* baths, but in particular I'm worried about running water through the innards of the refractometer. If I should stick with water for all these uses, should I at least use distilled water, or do we need to step up to deionized? Is there a corrosion-inhibiting substance I should add to the water? As always, any advice would be appreciated. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 06:29:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 31 06:29:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity References: Message-ID: <007401c2b0da$9515fb00$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> A note on preserving hanksite: I' ve seen some collectors immerse their specimens in oil or spraying them with acrylic varnish. Care should be taken when using these products since hanksite is often fluorescent. Acrylic resins will block SW-UV and many brands of oil may be fluorescent themselves. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yancey" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 4:56 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity | Folks, | | I would like to share a few observations on the fate of some hanksite | crystals in conditions of a humid atmosphere. A few years ago I | acquired some hanksite crystals in trade and decided to try some | different simple treatments to see if it would retard the slow | deliquescent deterioration that affects hanksite. I live in an area | of relatively high humidity and had a few extra crystals on which to | experiment. Beautiful crystals of hanksite occur in the muds of | Searles Lake, California at a shallow depth below the surface. They | are available in abundance for people attending the fall field event | held at Trona, when lake mud is pumped out and spread on the lake bed | for people to pick through. | | My interest in this comes from watching two hanksite crystals slowly | absorb water and eventually becoming rounded and losing their crystal | faces. Furthermore, they were glued to the styrofoam base of a | thumbnail box, using white glue, which failed as the surface absorbed | water and had to be remounted. They were kept in thumbnail boxes for | 25 years, partly residing in the relatively less humid conditions of | the intermountain states, then moving to the more humid regions of | the coastal plains. The crystals were not treated and acquired a | white powdery alteration product on the surface, so had to be rubbed | clean or washed a couple times. | | The new batch of hanksite crystals arrived with some adhering mud, | now very dried and hard to remove. To be incorporated in my mineral | collection, I wanted them clean and mounted in thumbnail boxes. Some | crystals could be cleaned mechanically, but others had to have some | areas of mud wetted to remove it, so the crystals of the group did | not have the same history of treatment. Also, this was about 18 | months after they had been collected. About half of the crystals are | clear to whitish and about half are darker with small amounts of | included mud. The clearer ones have pyramidal terminations while the | darker ones are more barrel-like with flat terminations on the | pyramid or are equant in overall form. | | One set of three clearer crystals of irregular form and low | desirability was left exposed to the atmosphere. Of the three, one | had no treatment, one was lightly coated with mineral oil and one was | lightly coated with petroleum jelly. After three years of exposure, | the only thing I can interpret is that the largest crystal - which | had no treatment - had the least amount of surface alteration. The | smallest - with one coating of mineral oil - had the most surface | alteration. Conclusion: a light coating of either material did not | help prevent deterioration. To have an effect, the coating would have | to be thick and unsightly. Three clear crystals had been mounted in | Perky-style thumbnail boxes and three darker crystals had also been | mounted in boxes. Of each group, one each had no coating, one each | had a light coating of mineral oil, and one each had a light coating | of petroleum jelly. All mounted crystals show some minor surface | alteration, but as expected, much less than the crystals directly | exposed to the atmosphere. The boxes had not been opened since | mounting, so there was pretty constant humidity conditions in the | boxes. The darker crystals seem to show the white surface alteration | more, but are probably no more affected than the clearer ones. For | the boxed crystals, there seems to be little difference between the | coating types and the uncoated ones. Again, the smallest one seemed | to have fared slightly worse than the others, leading me to think | that a larger size might correlate with better survival and | condition. A thin coating of mineral oil or petroleum jelly was not | very effective. I conclude that to have a real benefit, either a | heavier coating is needed or frequent rubbing and re-coating is | needed. The methods tried will not prevent the slow deterioration of | the crystals, but more drastic steps seem unnecessary when | replacement crystals are relatively easy to acquire. | | The crystals were mounted on a base with mineral tack. This has held | pretty well and it has not allowed the crystals to droop from their | mounted position. I dislike using mineral tack as a mounting medium, | since it is miserable to clean from a crystal when it ages (and older | mineral tack often bleeds oil), but the failure of white glue to hold | meant trying another approach. | | Anyone else have observations on deliquescing minerals? | | Tom Yancey | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 07:19:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sherry Pauley) Date: Tue Dec 31 07:19:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity References: <007401c2b0da$9515fb00$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Is mineral oil fluorescent? Sherry From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 07:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 31 07:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity Message-ID: <20021231152945.IQHL20003.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> Indeed, this is the inherent dilemma regarding preservation of unstable specimens. I have had much success in preserving hydrated, deliquescent, hygroscopic, and photosensitive minerals in their appropriate microenvironments (I still haven't figured out how to maintain my argentite without keeping the oven running at 350 deg. F for 24 x 7 x 365). However, these preservation methods make the specimens difficult to display, especially in the case of red proustite, which is kept in the dark. I have seen people coat and spray minerals with all sorts of treatments; these do not work in the long term and in fact they detract from the specimen's aesthetics as well as its value. I've always thought the choice is very simple and binary: do you want to display the mineral, or preserve it? Unfortunately these choices are often mutually exclusive. I have made the choice to preserve specimens for posterity, at the cost of making elaborate storage containers and not being able to fully enjoy them visually. Others make the choice of displaying them in room conditions, but some will darken, some will crumble, some will deliquesce, some will decompose into sulfuric acid that eats holes in labels and boxes; just like beauty and fine wine, these things are delicate and transient, and should be appreciated at their peak. I don't know about anyone else, but as I've collected I've learned at least 3 important lessons: 1. Some species are so rare you will never have them. 2. Excellent examples of some species are so expensive you will never afford them. and . . . 3. Some species are not meant to be displayed in room conditions. Philosophically yours, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 07:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 31 07:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity Message-ID: <20021231153328.NQWG12483.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> Apparently some is, but my HomeBest heavy mineral oil (purchased at CVS, a drugstore chain) does not interfere with the hanksite's fluorescence. I will state that the oil itself does not appear to fluoresce while in bulk, nor does it interfere with the hanksite, however if I rub a very thin layer on my fingers, it will fluoresce a pale blue under SW. I do not know the reason for this phenomenon--it may be a matter of perception--and unfortunately I do not have time to pursue the issue further. Don > Is mineral oil fluorescent? > Sherry > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 07:39:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 31 07:39:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity References: <007401c2b0da$9515fb00$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <009301c2b0e4$53f51d40$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> Some brands have a distinct light blue fluorescence. Much like scheelite. It's a matter of trial and trial again... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Pauley" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity | Is mineral oil fluorescent? | Sherry | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 07:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 31 07:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity References: <007401c2b0da$9515fb00$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <009701c2b0e5$e50059c0$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> Oh, and if you mean "mineral oil" as in "petra oleum" or rocl-oil: yes! In most cases it is fluorescent just like hydrocarbons. Try this one to view: http://www.uvminerals.org/photog/ae1_3839.jpg Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sherry Pauley" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity | Is mineral oil fluorescent? | Sherry | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 08:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 31 08:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity References: <20021231153328.NQWG12483.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> Message-ID: <00ba01c2b0e9$6d32a7a0$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> Possibly the oil contains some lighter fractions that may dissolve some fatty substances from your skin. Those may fluoresce as well. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity | | Apparently some is, but my HomeBest heavy mineral oil (purchased at CVS, a | drugstore chain) does not interfere with the hanksite's fluorescence. I will | state that the oil itself does not appear to fluoresce while in bulk, nor does | it interfere with the hanksite, however if I rub a very thin layer on my | fingers, it will fluoresce a pale blue under SW. I do not know the reason for | this phenomenon--it may be a matter of perception--and unfortunately I do not | have time to pursue the issue further. | | Don | > Is mineral oil fluorescent? | > Sherry | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 08:24:10 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 31 08:24:10 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity References: <20021231152945.IQHL20003.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> Message-ID: <00c001c2b0ea$867beea0$e3aa77d5@pandora.be> 4) Some specimens glow so strong that you just die... hm, Tsjernobylite Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity | | Indeed, this is the inherent dilemma regarding preservation of unstable | specimens. I have had much success in preserving hydrated, deliquescent, | hygroscopic, and photosensitive minerals in their appropriate microenvironments | (I still haven't figured out how to maintain my argentite without keeping the | oven running at 350 deg. F for 24 x 7 x 365). However, these preservation | methods make the specimens difficult to display, especially in the case of red | proustite, which is kept in the dark. I have seen people coat and spray | minerals with all sorts of treatments; these do not work in the long term and | in fact they detract from the specimen's aesthetics as well as its value. | | I've always thought the choice is very simple and binary: do you want to | display the mineral, or preserve it? Unfortunately these choices are often | mutually exclusive. I have made the choice to preserve specimens for | posterity, at the cost of making elaborate storage containers and not being | able to fully enjoy them visually. Others make the choice of displaying them | in room conditions, but some will darken, some will crumble, some will | deliquesce, some will decompose into sulfuric acid that eats holes in labels | and boxes; just like beauty and fine wine, these things are delicate and | transient, and should be appreciated at their peak. | | I don't know about anyone else, but as I've collected I've learned at least 3 | important lessons: | | 1. Some species are so rare you will never have them. | 2. Excellent examples of some species are so expensive you will never afford | them. | | and . . . | | 3. Some species are not meant to be displayed in room conditions. | | Philosophically yours, | | Don | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 08:52:45 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Dec 31 08:52:45 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] recommended fluids for contstant temp. circulating baths? Message-ID: <20021231165118.PQTO12483.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> That sounds good. Mostly I expect to use 25 C for calibrating unknown RI fluids, or older Cargille fluids, so they are consistent with the Cargille standard; and 4 C for calibrating custom-mixed SG liquids via pycnometer so that when I use them at 4 C, density and SG are equal. I may use other intermediate temperatures for general measurements, but I'd not expect to go below 4 C or above 25 C. Don > > > If you are holding the temperature around 25 or 30 degrees C, then water is > ideal for this. Deionized water still has some dissolved salts, so I would > use the best quality distilled water available. This is probably triply > distilled water. Replace it every two months or so. The water is probably > cheaper than equipment repairs! > > Steve in Los Angeles > One of those Academic Types From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 14:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Dec 31 14:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] recommended fluids for contstant temp. circulating baths? In-Reply-To: <20021231140802.QMCQ9286.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc14> Message-ID: If the bath is designed to operate above 100 C then it uses oil, the manufacturer probably has specifications for the oil. Oil can be used for temps below 100 C too of course. Water baths that are left with water in place for a long time can be treated with a biocide, again the manufacturer should have specifications. These baths are generally type 316 Stainless and water will not corrode them significantly, you want to use demineralized water to prevent deposits from building up. And despite what someone else said, ultra pure water is prepared by demineralizer resins not distillation. Distilled water makes a good feedstock to the resins. I am referring to ASTM 18 megaohm water. Contaminates are in the very low part per billion range or part per trillion. We make it all the time. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > So here is the golden question for the academics among us: is there a > special fluid, besides water, that I should use? I know that the > commerical > baths are called constant temperature *water* baths, but in > particular I'm > worried about running water through the innards of the > refractometer. If I > should stick with water for all these uses, should I at least use > distilled > water, or do we need to step up to deionized? Is there a > corrosion-inhibiting > substance I should add to the water? > > As always, any advice would be appreciated. > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Dec 31 14:23:28 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Dec 31 14:23:28 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hanksite in humidity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why not store them above a bed of silica gel or molecular sieve desiccant? Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Anyone else have observations on deliquescing minerals? >