From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 1 04:31:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Fri Nov 1 04:31:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question: Italian Szaibelyite In-Reply-To: <3DBD69AA.1080900@dal.ca> Message-ID: Some thoughts I got from an Italian collector (with my acknowledgements to Marco Marchesini...) : Some borates were found in good amount in Brosso and Traversella mines. The more common is Ludvigite. A big block (around 600 kg) remained for years outside the dumps, misunderstood to be Hornblende. Later in the '70-'80 in the Salvere levels Canavesite was found (new species) and also Szaibelyite. There are also specimens labelled Kotoite (I don't know if analysis were made). The fibrous stuf could be Szaibelyite indeed. The association should be with ludwigite, pyrite, magnetite, carbonates (mainly dolomite). The host rock is therefore a skarn. I have no information on a Traversella find. I think the correct location is then Brosso. Any more information on the plates? Could be a tabular calcite? Or a strange barite? I have no suggestion for more interesting species. Greetings, Rik Dillen -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Ronnie Van Dommelen Sent: 28 October, 2002 5:46 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Question: Italian Szaibelyite Hi All, I just acquired a piece from an old collection. It is a miniature sized piece of magnetite with dodecahedral magnetite crystals. In between some of the crystals is a fibrous white mineral and tiny thin colorless hexagonal plates. The label says, magnetite and szaibelyite from Traversella Mine, Torino, Italy. From searching the web, I would say that the fibrous mineral is the szaibelyite. Now for the questions. I can't seem to find the info I want on the locality. Are these appropriate for the locality on the label? Also, what would the thin plates be? Thanks in advance, Ronnie Van Dommelen _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 1 09:02:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Fri Nov 1 09:02:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] introducing.... Message-ID: <002201c281c8$2b75add0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, I read this mailinglist with great interest. I hope you allow me to introduce my website http://www.strahlen.org/ You all know Holland, but not as a mineral-paradise I presume...=20 And to tell you the truth, it's not ;-) But on my site are four locations in Holland; anyone willing to swap = material, just mailme I hope you like it, if not and I can improve it, I will; please mailme = off-list Cheers! Frank http://www.strahlen.org/ MSN nickname: str4hler --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 1 10:47:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lennart Borg) Date: Fri Nov 1 10:47:01 2002 Subject: SV: [Rockhounds] Ultrasonic Cleaners In-Reply-To: <3DC00E33.7040805@dal.ca> Message-ID: Hi all, One year ago I bought a ultrasonic cleaner from a firm in Germany, It works all wright and I can recomend them.The clay in the small vags disappears in 1-3 minutes. The name of the firm is Mikon and my cleaner has the name Bandelin Sonorex. mail to: info@mikon-online.com Lennart Borg in Sweden Ämne: [Rockhounds] Ultrasonic Cleaners Hi All, I was hoping someone could give me a crash course in ultrasonic cleaners. Who sells them? How much can I expect to pay? What features should I look for? What will it work on? Also, I recently found some sturdy natrolite sprays with clay in between the crystals. Used a paintbrush with soap and water and then the Waller solution but there is still a small amount of clay. Would the ultrasonic cleaner be suitable for this? Later, Ronnie Van Dommelen _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 1 14:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Nov 1 14:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] George L. English and Ward's Natural Science Establishment: info req. Message-ID: <3DC30054.8A31470C@att.net> Hi all, I met someone at the Rochester Symposium named Richard Bideaux who collects old mineral labels and other related artifacts. Tomorrow I am going to photocopy my materials to see if he is interested in them. While going through my archives, I came across something neat. It is a letter from Ward's Natural Science Establishment, dated April 26, 1920. It tells the collector they will send some catalogs and will be pleased to fulfill any orders, ad inf., in the style of the day. At the bottom, it is signed in a flowery script, Geo L English, with a typed title "Mgr. Dept. of Mineralogy & Petrography." The name is hard to read, but the initial block at the bottom, GLE:L, suggests that I read it correctly. I have heard this name before, perhaps mentioned as a noted collector. Does anyone have anything to add about him? Does this letter have any historic (not monetary, historic) value? I also have the letter the collector wrote the previous week, asking Ward's for catalogs. Best regards, Don P.S. Wow, I just turned the archival sheet over, and there was another letter in the back facing the opposite way. This letter was also from Ward's, dated Sept. 16, 1931, and tells the collector they regret that they have discontinued the sale of Indian relics. It is signed F. H. Ward. Was this the founder of Ward's, or some junior relative? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 1 16:54:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Fri Nov 1 16:54:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar Message-ID: Hello Robert: Boy am I sorry to hear that... Someone in our club prepared a calendar a couple of years ago. It was really nice but the one year was enough. Creating a really nice product wasn't too hard using pictures of specimens club members had collected. The problem however was distribution. Take care, Larry Bull >From: Robert McGuire >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:39:34 -0500 > >Hi Larry, > >Our club got the calendars from Cedco for several years now, >but this year they didn't make a mineral calendar for 2003. >They didn't say why not. >We would also like to find a company producing them. >I wonder if a few clubs would like to go together to produce >such a calendar. It is a very costly venture. > >Bob > >http://uvbob.com > >Lawrence Bull wrote: > > > > Hello: > > Suggest you check here: www.cedco.com > > Good Luck, > > Larry Bull > > > > >From: "Bob Loeffler" > > >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > >To: > > >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:31:36 -0700 > > > > > >Thanks to all for the mineral calendar ideas. If anyone has anymore >ideas, > > >please let me know. > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > >Bob Loeffler > > >President and webmaster > > >North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) > > >http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/ > > >and a member of the Rock & Mineral Society (RAMS) > > > > > >Check out the best Colorado Rockhounding website at: > > >http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/colorado/ > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > >[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Juergen > > >Wachsmuth > > >Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:43 AM > > >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > > > > > > > >www.lapis.de > > > > > >Greetings > > >Jürgen Wachsmuth > > >Ulm - Germany > > > > > >Bob Loeffler schrieb: > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Got an e-mail from someone (see below) who is looking for a 2003 > > >calendar > > > > with pictures > > > > of minerals, gemstones, etc. Anybody have an idea of where to get >them? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Bob Loeffler > > > > President and webmaster > > > > North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) > > > > http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/ > > > > and a member of the Rock & Mineral Society (RAMS) > > > > > > > > Check out the best Colorado Rockhounding website at: > > > > http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/colorado/ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Paul Ciszek [mailto:pciszek@pobox.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 11:42 AM > > > > To: bobl@peaktopeak.com > > > > Subject: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > > > > > > > I am looking for a picture calendar (2003) with images of minerals, > > > > crystals, gemstones, etc. Have you heard of such a thing? Does > > > > anyone sell it? > > > > > > > > Any information will be appreciated. I can be reached via e-mail > > > > at pciszek@pobox.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >Subscription Services: > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >Subscription Services: > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! > > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 1 18:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Robert McGuire) Date: Fri Nov 1 18:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar References: Message-ID: <3DC33C13.7B0283A1@epix.net> Hi Larry, Yes, distribution is the big problem. I had prices on 5000 calendars and the cost per was nice enough that they could be sold and the club/s could make a nice profit to fund their trips or shows or whatever. But they all have to be sold. It really would be a task for 4 or 5 clubs spread around the country giving 4 or 5 distribution points. Also like you have said, the specimens could be the best of the clubs and that would produce a fine product. I keep dreaming maybe one day. Maybe one day I will even get my web site done. Take care, Bob http://uvbob.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lawrence Bull wrote: > > Hello Robert: > Boy am I sorry to hear that... > Someone in our club prepared a calendar a couple of years ago. It was > really nice but the one year was enough. Creating a really nice product > wasn't too hard using pictures of specimens club members had collected. The > problem however was distribution. > > Take care, > Larry Bull > > >From: Robert McGuire > >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:39:34 -0500 > > > >Hi Larry, > > > >Our club got the calendars from Cedco for several years now, > >but this year they didn't make a mineral calendar for 2003. > >They didn't say why not. > >We would also like to find a company producing them. > >I wonder if a few clubs would like to go together to produce > >such a calendar. It is a very costly venture. > > > >Bob > > > >http://uvbob.com > > > >Lawrence Bull wrote: > > > > > > Hello: > > > Suggest you check here: www.cedco.com > > > Good Luck, > > > Larry Bull > > > > > > >From: "Bob Loeffler" > > > >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > >To: > > > >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > > >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:31:36 -0700 > > > > > > > >Thanks to all for the mineral calendar ideas. If anyone has anymore > >ideas, > > > >please let me know. > > > > > > > >Regards, > > > > > > > >Bob Loeffler > > > >President and webmaster > > > >North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) > > > >http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/ > > > >and a member of the Rock & Mineral Society (RAMS) > > > > > > > >Check out the best Colorado Rockhounding website at: > > > >http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/colorado/ > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > >[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Juergen > > > >Wachsmuth > > > >Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:43 AM > > > >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > > > > > > > > > > >www.lapis.de > > > > > > > >Greetings > > > >Jürgen Wachsmuth > > > >Ulm - Germany > > > > > > > >Bob Loeffler schrieb: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > Got an e-mail from someone (see below) who is looking for a 2003 > > > >calendar > > > > > with pictures > > > > > of minerals, gemstones, etc. Anybody have an idea of where to get > >them? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Bob Loeffler > > > > > President and webmaster > > > > > North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) > > > > > http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/ > > > > > and a member of the Rock & Mineral Society (RAMS) > > > > > > > > > > Check out the best Colorado Rockhounding website at: > > > > > http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/colorado/ > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Paul Ciszek [mailto:pciszek@pobox.com] > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 11:42 AM > > > > > To: bobl@peaktopeak.com > > > > > Subject: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > > > > > > > > > I am looking for a picture calendar (2003) with images of minerals, > > > > > crystals, gemstones, etc. Have you heard of such a thing? Does > > > > > anyone sell it? > > > > > > > > > > Any information will be appreciated. I can be reached via e-mail > > > > > at pciszek@pobox.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >Subscription Services: > > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >Subscription Services: > > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! > > > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _________________________________________________________________ > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 2 04:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Steve Sorrell) Date: Sat Nov 2 04:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ad: Outlets needed for carvings from new lapidary material Message-ID: <200211021229.gA2CTOXH004684@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi all A rather unique new lapidary material (lilac stichtite in apple-green serpentine) is being mined in the mountains of western Tasmania and is being carved and polished into an attractive range of colourful Figurines and Jewelry, plus Spheres, Eggs, etc. The owners, Mike & Eleanor Phelan, would like some assistance with marketing the material, and if anyone is interested please check out this Website: http://www.tasmaniawestcoast.com.au/phelan.htm or email them on Email: ephelan@tassie.net.au Regards Steve http://www.crocoite.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 2 04:36:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Steve Sorrell) Date: Sat Nov 2 04:36:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ad: Outlets needed for carvings from new lapidary material Message-ID: <200211021235.gA2CZRXH005002@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi all A rather unique new lapidary material (lilac stichtite in apple-green serpentine) is being mined in the mountains of western Tasmania and is being carved and polished into an attractive range of colourful Figurines and Jewelry, plus Spheres, Eggs, etc. The owners, Mike & Eleanor Phelan, would like some assistance with marketing the material, and if anyone is interested please check out this Website: http://www.tasmaniawestcoast.com.au/phelan.htm or email them on Email: ephelan@tassie.net.au Regards Steve http://www.crocoite.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 2 05:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Nov 2 05:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ad: Outlets needed for carvings from new lapidary material References: <200211021235.gA2CZRXH005002@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <3DC3D2D7.54C96C96@att.net> My best assistance is that I can tell you I've purchased the material and it is beautiful. As a matter of fact we were supposed to complete a second order but I haven't heard from them. I like the raw material just as it is; they make wonderful specimens. If I'm not mistaken, this is also the type locality for the material, so it has some value in a mineralogical collection as well. Good stuff. Get some. Don Steve Sorrell wrote: > > Hi all > > A rather unique new lapidary material (lilac stichtite in apple-green > serpentine) is being mined in the mountains of western Tasmania and is being > carved and polished into an attractive range of colourful Figurines and > Jewelry, plus Spheres, Eggs, etc. > > The owners, Mike & Eleanor Phelan, would like some assistance with marketing > the material, and if anyone is interested please check out this Website: > http://www.tasmaniawestcoast.com.au/phelan.htm > or email them on Email: > ephelan@tassie.net.au > > Regards > Steve > http://www.crocoite.com > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 2 06:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 2 06:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] George L. English and Ward's Natural Science Establishm... Message-ID: <63.146e1192.2af5405a@aol.com> Dear Don, As the seventh staff mineralogist for Ward's (1979-1987), I can tell you something about George Letchworth English. In the 1880's-1900's, English had his own mineral business in Philadelphia. His ads are all through the Mineral Collector with his various address changes. English was distantly related to Henry Ward (founder of Ward's in April, 1862). Henry Ward was the first automobile fatality in Buffalo, NY in 1906 - or was it 1908? Am writing this from memory at my son's house. (The first automobile fatality in the world was in NYC Sept. 30, 1899.) >From folklore at American Museum of Natural History, the day before Henry's death, Henry showed up at the museum drunk and the curator (Louis Gratacap?) tried to get Henry to "sleep it off" on a laboratory work bench. Henry rolled over in his sleep and fell on the floor. At any rate, he must have taken the overnight train to Buffalo to be there the "next day". An auto was approaching while Henry was walking across the street while he was reading something. Henry looked up and insisted on the right of way, but an hysterical passenger obscured the driver's view/attention and he failed to stop in time. This was probably a 5 mph collision as that was likely the top speed allowed. The Ward family had long before removed control of the company from Henry's hands as he continually lost money. He never directly inherited from the family fortune (land and insurance), but I believe that his "inheritance" was to bail Henry out only when necessary and so to protect the family name. There is the incident when a $20,000 note came due in 1880, the same day Henry left for Europe on a buying trip. The creditors went from the old Ward's building on College Avenue over to his cousin Levi's office. Levi paid the note, but put his brother Frank in as new CEO. Surprise. Surprise. Frank was charged with the awesome responsibility with breaking even. He never did. Frank's son, Frank (not junior) later became president. In 1928, after Frank retired, there was no longer an interest in paying for the privilege of being CEO, so the Ward family gave the company to Univ. Rochester, who immediately lost more money than the Henry ever did. Profs. would stroll down the stocked shelves getting lab ware, etc., without the need of a purchase order or grant. U of R sold the company to Dean Gamble who turned the first profitable year for the company in the early stages of the Great Depression! At any rate, George L. English (englishite is named for him. Letchworth State Park is named for the family as well), was hired as mineralogist and remained so until 1920 when Frank Ward couldn't stand him anymore. In 1920, English was fired, then rehired as a consultant to buy minerals, but did not have anything to do with the day to day operations. After all, he was family. Dr. Alfred C. Hawkins was hired as third mineralogist and he remained there until 1926 or 1928 when he became a professor at Princeton? (Hawkins wrote several "popular" books about minerals.) English's signature is legendary and wonderful as an example of calligraphy. As he had a mineral named for him, I suspect that the letter would bring $30+. If the letter were not typed or dealt with a more substantive topic, it would bring more. The initials indicate the a secretary typed the letter and English signed it. You can read a very sanitized biography of Henry Ward written by his prudish grandson, Roswell Ward. There are a dozen or so four drawer filing cabinets of Ward papers at U of R. I drop in once in a while to read the correspondence. I'm up to 1890. This is starting to get interesting as the sales of minerals before 1890 were primarily to institutions and by 1890, Ward's was starting to sell to collectors. After I left Ward's when they had a "RIF" - reduction in force, to sell the company, there has been a dramatic decline in collector sales. I believe they had one collector sales flyer in the early 1990's. Since the incidents with PITA, there have been no collector's allowed to see the stock room and virtually all of the collector-grade specimens have been sold without restocking. In the 1980's, Ward's sold about 1 million speciemens a year to schools. (One of the hard to replace items was coarse cleavage galena - after the switch to unleaded gasoline, lead mining dried up.) Ward's has been sold several times since I was there and they are thriving, but I suspect that they no longer have a historian. One of the former presidents had an interest in history, but I don't know about the current organization. Bill Gamble, Dean Gamble's son, was a font of Henry Ward stories including how Henry seduced a distant cousin, Lydia Coonley, when they were coincidentally on a train to Mexico City. They soon married and Henry had new "deep pockets" to buy meteorites and hence the origin of the Ward-Coonley meteorite collection, still the largest meteorite collection ever assembled by a single person. Coonley made Henry keep good records on expenses and the collection was offered for sale as early as 1901 or 2 and by 1903 onwards there were several printed catalogs which were prospecti to sell the collection. Hope this helps, Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 2 16:27:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Nov 2 16:27:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] George L. English and Ward's Natural Science Establishm... In-Reply-To: <63.146e1192.2af5405a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021102143127.00a00b90@mail.aloha.net> At 04:51 AM 11/2/2002, you wrote: >As the seventh staff mineralogist for Ward's (1979-1987), I can tell you >something about George Letchworth English. .... > >Hope this helps, Van Fascinating story, Van, and well told. I love these "old timer" and "who inspired me" tales. I wonder if Charlie Ward and/or Kevin Ward are related to the Henry Ward dynasty. Maybe I'll ask them. Thanks and Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 3 13:59:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Sun Nov 3 13:59:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Iron Pyrite nodules on Arkansas Quartz Crystals Message-ID: <008f01c28384$7e14a880$c703fea9@win98> I just set up a web page with pictures of the new "Big Crystal Mine".=20 http://www.arcrystalmine.com/WR/WR.html It was opened about the first of October and has been producing large = points and clusters. About 5 percent of the crystals have iron pyrite = nodules stuck on them. We find many of the pyrite nodules stuck on the = bottom of points that have broken and re-grown. Do any of you = geologists have an explanation for the occurrence of pyrite with quartz = and how will it effect the market value? If you don't know it's OK to = make something up (smile). With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 3 17:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Crump) Date: Sun Nov 3 17:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c283a0$cbcf6d50$2000000a@TGE05> I realize you already live up in "the great white north," but one of my first geology professors said to be a geologist you needed to experience an earthquake, see a volcano erupt, and walk a glacier. I've been through an earthquake in California (luckily a very minor one) and I've seen Kilauea erupt in Hawaii (truly spectacular). I don't think anyone's yet mentioned experiencing a glacier. It may not fit your definition of a "geologic wonder" since its more of a "geologic process", but I know I'm looking forward to the chance of seeing one up close. Timothy E. Crump, C.P.G. Project Manager TGE Resources, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of H.Durstling Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 7:40 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World Hi everyone, Up here on the Bay of Fundy the days are getting shorter, colder, cloudier. Winter lies ahead. Damn! - time to flee, time to travel - at least in the mind. So in my imagination I've been putting together my geological dream tour, inventory-ing a sort of top-ten of the geological wonders that, someday, I'd like to visit. My spur of the moment wish list goes like this - - Cave of Swords, for the spectacular gypsum crystal rooms - That salt mine in Poland (what's its name???) where the miners over the centuries have sculpted an underground cathedral in the solid salt - Meteor Crater in Arizona, because of the perfection of its shape and because it was the first to be recognized as being of extra-terrestial origin - The limestone quarries in Solnhofen, Germany, the source of those mazingly detailed fossils of the archeopterix, the flying lizard (hope I have that biologically correct) originate - Namibia for the sake of its Namib desert and its vast array of gemstones - Brazil, Minas Gerais, ditto - Iceland for its volanoes perhaps? No doubt there are other, many other, "must-see" places; but already I'm drifting away from geology, and toward gemstones, which are my own favorite pursuit. So I thought I'd put the question out to the list members: if you had all the money in the world, and all the time in the world, what would be _your_ favorite top ten, or top five, geological sites, and why are they important, significant, attractive, worthwhile? (It just occurs to me that maybe we can get Walt Bowser to do this for real...*S*...) Anyway, let's do some winter dreaming... Cheers, Hans Durstling Moncton, Canada _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 3 20:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Nov 3 20:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] NASA - Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021103180134.020d2b40@mail.aloha.net> Hi list, I just discovered the following site: NASA - Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/archivepix.html I know many rockhounds are interested in astronomy, so it may be of interest even if there's not a direct connection to our hobby. But there are some pictures that are definitely of a geological nature. For example, 28 October 2002 is a satellite photo of the Richat Structure, and there's some interesting information in the caption on its possible origin. This might even fit with Hans's feeling that it's "time to flee, time to travel - at least in the mind" in his "Geological Wonders of the World" topic. What better way to flee than to go into space? Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 06:56:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood) Date: Mon Nov 4 06:56:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Iron Pyrite nodules on Arkansas Quartz Crystals In-Reply-To: <008f01c28384$7e14a880$c703fea9@win98> Message-ID: Hi Stuart, >From the images, it looks like the crystals are in a shale matrix (?). A bit about the geology might clarify the pyrite occurrence. I suspect that the pyrite, like so many of the associated minerals, is a localized phenomenon. Perhaps the quartz solutions remobilized pyrite, or possibly they simply hit a zone that had some organics and the pyrite precipitated. Henry Barwood -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Stuart Schmitt Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 4:01 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Iron Pyrite nodules on Arkansas Quartz Crystals I just set up a web page with pictures of the new "Big Crystal Mine". http://www.arcrystalmine.com/WR/WR.html It was opened about the first of October and has been producing large points and clusters. About 5 percent of the crystals have iron pyrite nodules stuck on them. We find many of the pyrite nodules stuck on the bottom of points that have broken and re-grown. Do any of you geologists have an explanation for the occurrence of pyrite with quartz and how will it effect the market value? If you don't know it's OK to make something up (smile). With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 07:36:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Gilmore) Date: Mon Nov 4 07:36:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities Message-ID: Hi group: Here is my list of qualities to look for when choosing a collecting partner: Large backpack for carrying your specimens. Preferred by ticks and biting flies. Shares his secrets. Can drive in his sleep. Already has too much of whatever is found. Can't whistle and doesn't try. Willing to hold the chisel. Has a permanent "kitchen pass". Can't get enough of your engrossing stories. Wants to name a mineral after you. X-ray vision. Negotiates brilliantly with the authorities. Any other suggestions? The Vugster http://home.attbi.com/~paugilmo/page1a.html _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 08:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 4 08:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities Message-ID: Add: 1. Has a complete extra set of tools and gloves 2. Has a metal detector 3. Has plenty of food and two sets of plates, forks, etc. 4. Is always asking "do you want a beer"? and means it. 5. Caries plenty or extra cans of fix a flat in a can 6. Knows where all the good places are that no one else will share because they are so good. (-: John Scully In a message dated 11/4/02 8:36:40 AM Mountain Standard Time, prgilmore@hotmail.com writes: << Subj: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities Date: 11/4/02 8:36:40 AM Mountain Standard Time From: prgilmore@hotmail.com (Paul Gilmore) Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Hi group: Here is my list of qualities to look for when choosing a collecting partner: Large backpack for carrying your specimens. Preferred by ticks and biting flies. Shares his secrets. Can drive in his sleep. Already has too much of whatever is found. Can't whistle and doesn't try. Willing to hold the chisel. Has a permanent "kitchen pass". Can't get enough of your engrossing stories. Wants to name a mineral after you. X-ray vision. Negotiates brilliantly with the authorities. Any other suggestions? The Vugster http://home.attbi.com/~paugilmo/page1a.html >> From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 08:32:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 4 08:32:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities Message-ID: <124.19797da6.2af7fadf@aol.com> Someone who has a great Sense Of Humor, like Paul Gilmore...... Thanks Paul, you made Monday morning a happy one ! : ) : ) RocknLight From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 08:39:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Mon Nov 4 08:39:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities References: Message-ID: <3DC6A219.3070802@emory.edu> * Thinks you're the smartest person in the world but never asks you to explain things like "monodispersive colloids" * Walks in front of you and catches the spiderwebs first * Has a truck and doesn't care if it gets dirty * Splits expenses with you without being asked * Doesn't take a picture of you on a field trip when you're bending over Anita JScully216@aol.com wrote: >Add: > >1. Has a complete extra set of tools and gloves > >2. Has a metal detector > >3. Has plenty of food and two sets of plates, forks, etc. > >4. Is always asking "do you want a beer"? and means it. > >5. Caries plenty or extra cans of fix a flat in a can > >6. Knows where all the good places are that no one else will share because >they are so good. > >(-: > >John Scully > > > > >In a message dated 11/4/02 8:36:40 AM Mountain Standard Time, >prgilmore@hotmail.com writes: > ><< Subj: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities > Date: 11/4/02 8:36:40 AM Mountain Standard Time > From: prgilmore@hotmail.com (Paul Gilmore) > Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Hi group: > > Here is my list of qualities to look for when choosing a collecting partner: > > Large backpack for carrying your specimens. > > Preferred by ticks and biting flies. > > Shares his secrets. > > Can drive in his sleep. > > Already has too much of whatever is found. > > Can't whistle and doesn't try. > > Willing to hold the chisel. > > Has a permanent "kitchen pass". > > Can't get enough of your engrossing stories. > > Wants to name a mineral after you. > > X-ray vision. > > Negotiates brilliantly with the authorities. > > Any other suggestions? > > The Vugster > > http://home.attbi.com/~paugilmo/page1a.html > >> >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 09:11:03 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Mon Nov 4 09:11:03 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities References: Message-ID: <003b01c28424$f2c6d040$3c1ebed8@powertech.net> i would add: very strong. indefatigable excellent map-reader and GPS-user with excellent sense of direction . Margaret > Hi group: > > Here is my list of qualities to look for when choosing a collecting partner: > > Large backpack for carrying your specimens. > > Preferred by ticks and biting flies. > > Shares his secrets. > > Can drive in his sleep. > > Already has too much of whatever is found. > > Can't whistle and doesn't try. > > Willing to hold the chisel. > > Has a permanent "kitchen pass". > > Can't get enough of your engrossing stories. > > Wants to name a mineral after you. > > X-ray vision. > > Negotiates brilliantly with the authorities. > > Any other suggestions? > > The Vugster > > http://home.attbi.com/~paugilmo/page1a.html > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 11:29:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Mon Nov 4 11:29:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities References: <3DC6A219.3070802@emory.edu> Message-ID: <001101c28434$5a10a000$4b04efd1@oemcomputer> Owns a liquor store. Has a sexy daughter, or a portable gas drill. Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com > ><< Subj: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities > > Date: 11/4/02 8:36:40 AM Mountain Standard Time > > From: prgilmore@hotmail.com (Paul Gilmore) > > > > Hi group: > > > > Here is my list of qualities to look for when choosing a collecting partner: > > > > Large backpack for carrying your specimens. > > > > Preferred by ticks and biting flies. > > > > Shares his secrets. > > > > Can drive in his sleep. > > > > Already has too much of whatever is found. > > > > Can't whistle and doesn't try. > > > > Willing to hold the chisel. > > > > Has a permanent "kitchen pass". > > > > Can't get enough of your engrossing stories. > > > > Wants to name a mineral after you. > > > > X-ray vision. > > > > Negotiates brilliantly with the authorities. > > > > Any other suggestions? > > > > The Vugster > > > > http://home.attbi.com/~paugilmo/page1a.html > > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 12:01:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Nov 4 12:01:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities In-Reply-To: <001101c28434$5a10a000$4b04efd1@oemcomputer> References: <3DC6A219.3070802@emory.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021104100821.020cc780@mail.aloha.net> At 08:59 AM 11/4/2002, you wrote: >Has a sexy daughter, or a portable gas drill. > >Tim Jokela Jr ...sexy daughter OR a gas grill? They are of the same value? Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 12:21:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 4 12:21:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities Message-ID: <1C062825.7C93BFAB.02180873@aol.com> Never finds rocks or fossils better than you found,,,, and if he does, he doesn't make a pooint of it. Gene Hartstein From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 12:33:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Mon Nov 4 12:33:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities References: <3DC6A219.3070802@emory.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20021104100821.020cc780@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <000a01c2843d$623afe20$4b04efd1@oemcomputer> That's a portable gas DRILL. Have you ever priced those things? Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: Sent: November 4, 2002 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities > At 08:59 AM 11/4/2002, you wrote: > > >Has a sexy daughter, or a portable gas drill. > > > >Tim Jokela Jr > > > ...sexy daughter OR a gas grill? They are of the same value? > > Kitty > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 13:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Nov 4 13:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner qualities In-Reply-To: <000a01c2843d$623afe20$4b04efd1@oemcomputer> References: <3DC6A219.3070802@emory.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20021104100821.020cc780@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021104114103.020cde40@mail.aloha.net> At 10:04 AM 11/4/2002, you wrote: >That's a portable gas DRILL. Have you ever priced those things? > >Cheers, > >Tim Jokela Jr Drill, not grill..right. Definitely as valuable as a sexy daughter. BTW, would a female rockhound want the partner to have a sexy son? Come to think of it, she'd probably prefer the drill. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 16:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Mon Nov 4 16:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - web site update Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021105012019.007b4d60@popmail.libero.it> Hi there friends ! This is the first update after the Munich show ! real nice rocks are now available for you and for your eyes ! SPESSARTINE from Val di Susa, Piemonte Italy, SULFUR from Perticara mine, Italy (see Min. Rec. 2002), MINYULITE from Pereta mine, Grosseto, Italy, ELBAITE from Afhanistan and Pakistan, CAVANSITE from India, TOPAZ from Pakistan. Visit us at: http://www.italianminerals.com/ Best regards, Alessandro ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 16:44:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright) Date: Mon Nov 4 16:44:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] All About Quartz Message-ID: <000601c28464$5ee42040$2bb2950c@mel> EVERY part of quartz collection and properties is covered! http://rockhoundingar.com/quartz.html Mel Albright Call or hug someone you love today! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 17:35:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Mon Nov 4 17:35:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] All About Quartz References: <000601c28464$5ee42040$2bb2950c@mel> Message-ID: <3DC720A6.69FEFF0@att.net> Did someone on one of the lists make this site? Don Mel Albright wrote: > > EVERY part of quartz collection and properties is covered! > > http://rockhoundingar.com/quartz.html From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 18:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Mon Nov 4 18:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] All About Quartz References: <000601c28464$5ee42040$2bb2950c@mel> <3DC720A6.69FEFF0@att.net> Message-ID: <020a01c28474$31300aa0$c703fea9@win98> This web site was done by Mike and Darcy Howard. Mike is a geologist for Arkansas State. I don't think they are on this list. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Cc: "Rockhounds" Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:36 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] All About Quartz > > Did someone on one of the lists make this site? > > Don > > > Mel Albright wrote: > > > > EVERY part of quartz collection and properties is covered! > > > > http://rockhoundingar.com/quartz.html > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 4 23:03:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 4 23:03:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Partner DRILL Message-ID: <73.28980fed.2af8c6ed@aol.com> If the sexy son was the sole heir to the gas drill company, w e l l t h e n.... He would definitely be much more valuable to the Female rockhound, than the gas drill itself... We all know the double standard d r i l l : ) : ) RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 5 16:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Nov 5 16:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021105142942.02c320e0@mail.aloha.net> Hi list---and particularly Aaron, I know we're supposed to leave the virus thread, but I've gotten 2 messages recently that my protection (either Norton or Grisoft) caught, and they both were infected by I-Worm/Bugbear, and appeared to come through this list. One said it was from from: WVMURRAY@public.szonline.net Subject: Mont Saint Hilaire Sat Trip, and the message said The other was the one from: Ronnie Van Dommelen Subject: [Rockhounds] Ultrasonic Cleaners. It came once last Wednesday, 30 October, and then today came again with the identical message, but the notation from my virus protection that Aaron, I know you said that Drizzle is safe, and that these things don't really come from the sender that is listed. But doesn't this mean that someone on the list has been infected? Is there anything more we should do than just hope that Norton and/or Grisoft is going to continue to be effective? Thanks, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 5 18:58:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Tue Nov 5 18:58:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021105142942.02c320e0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: > Aaron, I know you said that Drizzle is safe, and that these things don't > really > come from the sender that is listed. But doesn't this mean that someone on > the list has been infected? Is there anything more we should do than just > hope that Norton and/or Grisoft is going to continue to be effective? > > Thanks, Kitty > Yes, it does mean that somebody on the list is infected. However, since most of these worms have the ability to mask the sender's address, my only option is to try and track down 'who' it is by looking at the email headers. And frankly, I don't have time to do that. Short of filtering mail on this end, so that viruses don't get passed directly to the list, I'm not sure of what options they are. In an ideal world, if there was time, a filter could be written to check the headers on all messages. Mailman (our list software) already checks headers for bogus domains/senders, to prevent spam to the list. I imagine that it would be possible to flag messages as virii, and then setup a script to track it back to the domain. But that would require programming time, and access to the server, of which I have neither. This has the limitation, however, of only tracking the email back to the domain (aol.com, earthlink.net, etc.). In the case of the larger ISPs, there may be 10 - 15 list members with email addresses with that server. So pinning down an infected individual might be tough. The only other solution is to not run email clients that are scriptable (i.e. Outlook Express, Outlook, various webmail systems, Eudora?). Email virii never bother me; I use pine on a linux (or SunOS 5.8, if I'm on the school cluster). Pine isn't vulnerable to any of these script viruses, as it doesn't execute code (no html emails). Plus, most of the virii out there don't run on Linux / Unix (this is changing, however). Now, I am not an email expert. There may be other options, or I might be describing this wrong. I leave any corrections up to some of our other list members who have more experience than I. But I don't see another real solution. Wish I did.... Aaron -- afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request "Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..." From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 5 19:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Nov 5 19:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question References: Message-ID: <3DC89173.6985@Tomaszewski.net> Aaron Fox wrote: > > > Aaron, I know you said that Drizzle is safe, and that these things don't > > really > > come from the sender that is listed. But doesn't this mean that someone on > > the list has been infected? Is there anything more we should do than just > > hope that Norton and/or Grisoft is going to continue to be effective? > > > > Thanks, Kitty > > > > Yes, it does mean that somebody on the list is infected. However, > > But I don't see another real solution. Wish I did.... > Kitty (and Aaron, and List), I lay some claim to being an email expert, since it is my mundane job, and can offer one alternative; it *_assumes_* you have a safe enough environment to access the full email headers on the infected message (BTW, Macintosh, like *nix {aka, Unix/Linux}, is also relatively safe). Open a 'free' reporting account at SpamCop.net. Cut/Paste the infected message headers into the reporting window. Append a blank line followed by the word 'virus'. Submit with details turned on. This will identify the source of the email and one or more abuse reporting addresses. Note these down and cancel the report (it is inappropriate/abusive to report virus problems via SpamCop). Send an email to Postmaster@ the origination ISP/domain, with CC to Abuse@ the origination ISP/domain plus the abuse address(es) identified from the SpamCop analysis. Include the headers from the virus and a short note asking them to assist in securing their virus (give name if known) infested customer. An auto-acknowledgement is the most you should expect back (besides bounces from invalid/obsolete contact addresses), but it is quite often successful at getting the source fixed. It is also fairly quick since everything except your sentence or two of comment can be done cut/paste. Anyone can do it, and it actually works better if more than one recipient of the virus takes the time to report the receipt of infected messages. Kreigh Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 6 01:03:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Demeulemeester, Pierre) Date: Wed Nov 6 01:03:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar Message-ID: <88E0457D01CFD611BFEB0002A55131309E9F79@noh01ex.noh.be.solvay.com> http://www.athesia.com/shopping/show_kalender.asp?SID=1887249283719418&Kalen der=mineralien The above web address presents a beautifull Mineral Picturter Calendar for 2003. Pierre Demeulemeester -----Original Message----- From: barny@mindspring.com [mailto:barny@mindspring.com] Sent: mardi 29 octobre 2002 20:10 To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juergen Wachsmuth" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] FW: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > www.lapis.de > > Greetings > Jürgen Wachsmuth > Ulm - Germany > > Bob Loeffler schrieb: > > > Hi all, > > > > Got an e-mail from someone (see below) who is looking for a 2003 calendar > > with pictures > > of minerals, gemstones, etc. Anybody have an idea of where to get > > them? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Bob Loeffler > > President and webmaster > > North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) > > http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/ > > and a member of the Rock & Mineral Society (RAMS) > > > > Check out the best Colorado Rockhounding website at: > > http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/colorado/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Ciszek [mailto:pciszek@pobox.com] > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 11:42 AM > > To: bobl@peaktopeak.com > > Subject: Seeking Mineral Picture Calendar > > > > I am looking for a picture calendar (2003) with images of minerals, > > crystals, gemstones, etc. Have you heard of such a thing? Does > > anyone sell it? > > > > Any information will be appreciated. I can be reached via e-mail at > > pciszek@pobox.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail is confidential. If you are not the addressee or an authorized recipient of this message, any distribution, copying, publication or use of this information for any purpose is prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and then delete this message. Ce message est confidentiel. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire désigné de ce message ou une personne autorisée à l'utiliser, toute distribution, copie, publication ou usage à quelques fins que ce soit des informations contenues dans ce message sont interdits. Merci d'informer immédiatement l'expéditeur par messagerie électronique et d'ensuite détruire ce message. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 6 07:19:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Wed Nov 6 07:19:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021105142942.02c320e0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <004901c285a7$aec25840$561cbed8@powertech.net> .From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question > Hi list---and particularly Aaron, > > I know we're supposed to leave the virus thread, but I've gotten 2 messages > recently that my protection (either Norton or Grisoft) caught, and they both > were infected by I-Worm/Bugbear, and appeared to come through this list. > One said it was from from: > WVMURRAY@public.szonline.net > Subject: Mont Saint Hilaire Sat Trip, and the message said I would like to buy from you on Sat the following minerals If you have them > Gobbinsite _ # 2 > Gotzenite _ # 2 > Garronite _ # 2 > Leuekchangite _ # 1 > > > The other was the one from: Ronnie Van Dommelen > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Ultrasonic Cleaners. It came once > last Wednesday, 30 October, and then today came again with the identical > message, but the notation from my virus protection that file image.pif is infected by I-Worm/Bugbear.> > > Aaron, I know you said that Drizzle is safe, and that these things don't > really > come from the sender that is listed. But doesn't this mean that someone on > the list has been infected? Is there anything more we should do than just > hope that Norton and/or Grisoft is going to continue to be effective? > > Thanks, Kitty I got the one from Ronnie too -- my ISP's virus checker caught it. margaret > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 6 09:15:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Nov 6 09:15:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question In-Reply-To: <004901c285a7$aec25840$561cbed8@powertech.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021105142942.02c320e0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021106072138.02059540@mail.aloha.net> At 05:17 AM 11/6/2002, you wrote: >I got the one from Ronnie too -- my ISP's virus checker caught it. > >margaret I'm sure Ronnie is not the cause, however. For one thing, the address is wrong (hotmail.com). Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 6 09:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Art Berggreen) Date: Wed Nov 6 09:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] virus question References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021105142942.02c320e0@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021106072138.02059540@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3DC951BA.7EF184C2@berggreen.org.> Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > At 05:17 AM 11/6/2002, you wrote: > > >I got the one from Ronnie too -- my ISP's virus checker caught it. > > > >margaret > > I'm sure Ronnie is not the cause, however. For one thing, the > address is wrong (hotmail.com). Ahh, but recent email virii spoof the From: address with random selections from the address book of the infected machine. You can't trust everything in the email header as being valid! :>{ Art From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 13:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Nov 7 13:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Montmins on http://www.strahlen.org/ Message-ID: <004d01c286a7$bfcb0910$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, I have just put some 50 photo's online of the tour Jos Hens and I made = to Montmins in France last tuesday and wednesday. Instead of the 24-hours-of-Le Mans race, we did the 48-hours-of-Montmins = ;-) Cheers! Frank http://www.strahlen.org/ MSN nickname: str4hler --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 15:37:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Nov 7 15:37:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gronstedtite References: <000801c27b64$4b706b80$335204d0@jim> Message-ID: <3DCAEAD1.6050706@earthlink.net> Jim Sorry to get back late, but been gone. The GRON might mean Green. If the "O" has an ulaut over it. Doesn't help with the ID, but might be a lead,. walt Jim Daly wrote: >A customer recently had a question I can't answer. >He has a specimen labelled "Gronstedtite, Gernrode, Harz, Germany", and can't find any reference to that mineral. Neither can I. >Anyone ever hear of it? >Jim Daly >Sauktown Sales >Microminerals and mounting supplies >http://www.sauktown.com >sauktown@adsnet.com >or orders@sauktown.com > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 17:00:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Nov 7 17:00:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz References: <3DB9E1B0.3728FBF6@earthlink.net> <000a01c27ccf$05f03ce0$e4aa77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3DCAFE7C.3020605@earthlink.net> There is some material called Strawberry quartz from near Casas Grande in Mexico which is very similar. It is heavily included with hematite also. Walt Axel Emmermann wrote: >Hoi Teresa > >Perhaps those brick-red double ended quartz crystals from the Sierra Orcheta >in Spain might fit the name? >They are opaque and saturated with hematite. Probably both quarz and >hematite formed out of the same gel. > >cheers > >Axel Emmermann >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 >E-mail: >axel.emmermann@pandora.be >Visit our homepage: >http://www.minerant.org/index.html >Bezoek onze web-site: >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html >My own web-site: >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Teresa Otis" >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:28 AM >Subject: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz > > >| Hi List Members, >| >| Does anyone have knowledge/information on ferrigenous (sp) quartz? We >| have searched in several places looking for photos, location, general >| pricing and are coming up empty. Spelling it wrong doesn't seem to >| matter, lol. Where do we need to look? >| >| thanks for the help, >| >| Teresa Otis >| _______________________________________________ >| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >| Subscription Services: >| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >| > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 17:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford) Date: Thu Nov 7 17:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] land of the lost ... Discover Mag Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021107203536.02970230@mail.indy.net> This month in Discover Magazine in the small Science Surfing area they have an interesting link to a dino web site that lets you look up by era, location and name. Its not complete but it is fun to check out. Its at The Natural History Museum in the UK. http://flood.nhm.ac.uk/cgi-bin/dino/index.dsml They also have a neat one on skulls. Be sure to check out the Skulls in Culture area. This is at the California Academy of Sciences. http://www.calacademy.org/exhibits/skulls/ And last but far from least is Stephen Hawkings web site. It also has an area that lists some of his lectures. You can download to read them with Acrobat. http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html If you have time read and enjoy. Robin From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 18:33:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Nov 7 18:33:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World References: <3DBFE406.1030507@emory.edu> Message-ID: <3DCAF7FC.1090605@earthlink.net> I have to put the Grand canyon right up there with the best of them. However, some others are Ngorongoro crater, Tanzania The Great Rift Valley Black Smokers, fumeroles at the bottom of the ocean Marianas trench Australia, the flattest place on earth The Himalayas The flood Basalts of India's Deccan area The Sahara Desert The Chilean Deserts Volcanoes in general Hawaiian Eruptions Dinosaur National Monument Devil's Postpile I am sure there are more, many more, that deserve to be there. Walt Anita Westlake wrote: > Here's my "off the top of my head" list: > > 1. Meteor Crater, Arizona > 2. San Andres Fault, California > 3. Any active volcano > 4. Carlsbad Caverns, New Mexico (cave formations) > 5. Patagonia, Argentina (petrified wood, pinecones, etc.) > 6. Madagascar (labradorite, petrified wood and lots of other cool stuff) > 7. Gobi Desert, China (dinosaur bones, eggs) > 8. Dominican Republic (amber) > 9. A South African diamond mine (diamonds!) > 10. Dorset (?) Lyme Regis, UK (where Mary Anning discovered, > excavated, studied and sold fossils) > 11. Giants Causeway, Ireland > 12. Siccar Point, Scotland (site of James Hutton's unconformity) > > Anita Westlake > > H.Durstling wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> Up here on the Bay of Fundy the days are getting shorter, colder, >> cloudier. >> Winter lies ahead. Damn! - time to flee, time to travel - at least in the >> mind. >> >> So in my imagination I've been putting together my geological dream tour, >> inventory-ing a sort of top-ten of the geological wonders that, someday, >> I'd like to visit. My spur of the moment wish list goes like this - >> >> - Cave of Swords, for the spectacular gypsum crystal rooms >> >> - That salt mine in Poland (what's its name???) where the miners over the >> centuries >> have sculpted an underground cathedral in the solid salt >> >> - Meteor Crater in Arizona, because of the perfection of its shape and >> because it was >> the first to be recognized as being of extra-terrestial origin >> >> - The limestone quarries in Solnhofen, Germany, the source of those >> mazingly detailed fossils of the archeopterix, the flying lizard (hope I >> have that biologically correct) originate >> >> - Namibia for the sake of its Namib desert and its vast array of >> gemstones >> >> - Brazil, Minas Gerais, ditto >> >> - Iceland for its volanoes perhaps? >> >> No doubt there are other, many other, "must-see" places; but already I'm >> drifting away from geology, and toward gemstones, which are my own >> favorite >> pursuit. So I thought I'd put the question out to the list members: >> if you >> had all the money in the world, and all the time in the world, what would >> be _your_ favorite top ten, or top five, geological sites, and why >> are they >> important, significant, attractive, worthwhile? >> >> (It just occurs to me that maybe we can get Walt Bowser to do this for >> real...*S*...) >> >> Anyway, let's do some winter dreaming... >> >> Cheers, >> Hans Durstling >> Moncton, Canada >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 18:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Flannigan) Date: Thu Nov 7 18:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Houston, Texas Rock & Fossil Swap Notice References: <20021107020002.3378.24779.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <3DCB279A.D55854F@earthlink.net> FYI: All - The next Semi-Annual Texas Rock & Fossil Swap will be held on: Date: Sunday, November 17, 2002 Time: 11AM-5PM Place: HGMS Club House (see directions below) I'm getting messages from a good number of people who plan on coming down to Houston for the swap. Hope all of you who made it last time will be able to make it again. Just like the last swap meet anyone with an interest in rock hounding and the lapidary arts may attend and display, swap or sell their specimens or handy work. I make no distinction between collectors and commercial vendors - both are welcome. The event is totally free - no fees of any kind, no obligations for donations, et cetera. I just want everybody to get together and relax with their friends and enjoy the hobby, as one commenter said last time, "Just like we used to do it!" It will be a tail gate affair meaning if you don't bring it with you it's not there. The HGMS clubhouse does have bathrooms and water. We can grill burgers and hot dogs again too. With four weeks to go we need to get the word out and draw people to the swap. If you plan on coming as a swapper let me know so I have a vague idea of who to expect. So please let me know what you want to do and I will try my best to accomodate you, as allways. Thanks, Ed Tindell 2002 CLGMS Field Trip/Group Order/Swap Meet Coordinator a.k.a. "The Official Cat Herder" Directions to the HGMS Clubhouse: The HGMS clubhouse is in the northwest corner of the Beltway 8 (Sam Houston Toll road) and Highway 59 (Southwest Freeway) about 10 miles southwest of Houston, Texas. The address is 10805 Brooklet, Houston, Tx 77099, on the northeast corner of Rockley and Brooklet. Coming south on Beltway 8, I exit at the last frontage road exit before the toll road exit onto Hwy 59. Going down a few blocks, I turn right onto Roark Road and then Rockley is the first turn on the right. The clubhouse is on my right after going down Rockley for one block. Going southwest on Hwy 59, I exit either on the frontage road just before coming up on the Toll road exit, or at the Murphy road exit almost under the large highway interchange. Then I turn right on Stanclift off the frontage road. Then make the first right onto Brooklet. The clubhouse is on my right after about three blocks on Brooklet. Most other directions (and taking the smaller streets) get you to either the corner of Bissonnet & Wilcrest ... or West Bellfort & Wilcrest. Wilcrest is a north-south street and Rockley is an east-west street north of West Bellfort and south of Bissonnet. The clubhouse is several blocks east of Wilcrest on the left side of Rockley. There is a large ROCK on the corner of Wilcrest and Rockley. Skeptics click here: http://ed-tindell.home.sprynet.com/ert.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 7 23:23:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Thu Nov 7 23:23:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - web site update Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021108082313.007e09b0@popmail.libero.it> Hi there friends ! This is the first update after the Munich show ! real nice rocks are now available for you and for your eyes ! SPESSARTINE from Val di Susa, Piemonte Italy, SULFUR from Perticara mine, Italy (see Min. Rec. 2002), MINYULITE from Pereta mine, Grosseto, Italy, ELBAITE from Afhanistan and Pakistan, CAVANSITE from India, TOPAZ from Pakistan. Visit us at: http://www.italianminerals.com/ Best regards, Alessandro ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 06:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard Dale) Date: Fri Nov 8 06:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gronstedtite References: <000801c27b64$4b706b80$335204d0@jim> <3DCAEAD1.6050706@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c28731$d0ade600$33820244@ph.cox.net> I suspect that it is Cronstedtite, a clay-like (crystallographically, anyway) iron silicate. In its amorphous form, it can be kind of a "weed", mineral... covering up the good stuff & nearly impossible to remove! Cheers, Richard www.dalerocks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gronstedtite > Jim > Sorry to get back late, but been gone. The GRON might mean Green. If > the "O" has an ulaut over it. Doesn't help with the ID, but might be a > lead,. > walt > Jim Daly wrote: > > >A customer recently had a question I can't answer. > >He has a specimen labelled "Gronstedtite, Gernrode, Harz, Germany", and can't find any reference to that mineral. Neither can I. > >Anyone ever hear of it? > >Jim Daly > >Sauktown Sales > >Microminerals and mounting supplies > >http://www.sauktown.com > >sauktown@adsnet.com > >or orders@sauktown.com > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > >--- > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 07:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard Sheaff) Date: Fri Nov 8 07:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Victoia Stone Message-ID: Joe, I am not the person with whom you corresponded earlier; but I have gotten very interested in Victoria Stone. I came across a small piece, and made it into a great cab. I would very much like to get more, and to learn about its origin and history . . . . . Best, Richard Sheaff 9330 North 96th Place Scottsdale, AZ 85258 480-451-0788 Joe Bokor From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 07:42:21 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Fri Nov 8 07:42:21 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Montmins on http://www.strahlen.org/ Message-ID: <002e01c286a7$6cc9a550$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, I have just put some 50 photo's online of the tour Jos Hens and I made = to Montmins in France last tuesday and wednesday. Instead of the 24-hours-of-Le Mans race, we did the 48-hours-of-Montmins = ;-) Ik heb net ca. 50 foto's op http://www.strahlen.org/ gezet van de = 48-uur-trip die Jos Hens en ik dinsdag en woensdag hebben gemaakt naar = Montmins, Frankrijk. Cheers! Frank http://www.strahlen.org/ MSN nickname: str4hler --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 08:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Green/Robin Lyn Green) Date: Fri Nov 8 08:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock Gem & Mineral Show Reminder - Central Ohio - Nov. 16 & 17 Message-ID: <005101c28747$05216e60$9600000a@alltel.net> The Licking County Rock and Mineral Society will have a rock, gem and = mineral show in Newark, Ohio on Saturday, November 16 (9-6) and on = Sunday, November 17(10-5). It will be held at the Teheran Grotto Hall = on Waterworks Road just off State Rt. 13. The admission charge is $1.00 = per person and free to those under 12 years old when accompanied with a = paying adult. Scouts in uniform will also be permitted free admission. = There will be dealers, hourly door prizes, demonstrations, grab bags for = children and rock savers. Newark is about 35 miles N/E of Columbus, = Ohio and about 7 miles north of Interstate 70. Take SR 79 or SR 13 = north from IS 70 to Newark. For further information or directions = please contact me at pgre@alltel.net or at 740-366-2778. Dealers may = contact Jack Lahr at jlahr@ecr.net or 740-397-7934. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 09:00:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Fri Nov 8 09:00:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Victoia Stone References: Message-ID: <002401c28748$383fde20$7986f943@7a2wp> A synthetic jade, created by a now-dead Japanese scientist who apparently did not pass on his methods. There are a couple of good articles in old Lapidary Journals, if you can find them in your library. -dan- __ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin http://www.ManyFacets.com/ (rockshop) http://www.ManyFacets.com/dan/ (personal) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Sheaff" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 18:03 Subject: [Rockhounds] Victoia Stone > Joe, > > I am not the person with whom you corresponded earlier; but I have > gotten very interested in Victoria Stone. I came across a small > piece, and made it into a great cab. I would very much like to get > more, and to learn about its origin and history . . . . . > > Best, > > Richard Sheaff > 9330 North 96th Place > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > 480-451-0788 > > > Joe Bokor > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 09:11:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Fri Nov 8 09:11:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyritized Paraspirifer brachiopods, Sylvania Quarry, Ohio In-Reply-To: <001e01c28085$0240c4c0$2702a8c0@WorkGroup> Message-ID: <188E3A1C-F33D-11D6-A1C1-0050E4FA984A@mac.com> i think I missed the response to this thread, if there was any. Could=20 someone please repost any info they have that is pertinent? Thank you=20 in advance KM On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 06:27 PM, Stephen Douglas wrote: > If the quarry is not open for collecting would anyone be able to=20 > suggest alternate locations for collecting of pyritized fossils in the=20= > general vicinity of Sylvania Quarry? Kris Murray J&M Publishing, Inc. Publishers of Snoflyer, Snow Tracks, Snow Biz, Tri-Power 220 SW 153rd Street, Burien, Washington 98166 1-877-434-7669 =95 (206) 433-8150 =95 fax 433-8150 www.jm-publishing.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 10:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Fri Nov 8 10:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World References: <3DBFE406.1030507@emory.edu> <3DCAF7FC.1090605@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001901c2874f$b5271a00$061dbed8@powertech.net> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World Wow, I surely glad someone mentioned the Grand Canyon, the grandest canyon of all. Except Maybe for Zion Canyon, In Zion N. P. Margaret > I have to put the Grand canyon right up there with the best of them. > > However, some others are > > Ngorongoro crater, Tanzania > The Great Rift Valley > Black Smokers, fumeroles at the bottom of the ocean > Marianas trench > Australia, the flattest place on earth > The Himalayas > The flood Basalts of India's Deccan area > The Sahara Desert > The Chilean Deserts > Volcanoes in general > Hawaiian Eruptions > Dinosaur National Monument > Devil's Postpile > > I am sure there are more, many more, that deserve to be there. > Walt > > Anita Westlake wrote: > > > Here's my "off the top of my head" list: > > > > 1. Meteor Crater, Arizona > > 2. San Andres Fault, California > > 3. Any active volcano > > 4. Carlsbad Caverns, New Mexico (cave formations) > > 5. Patagonia, Argentina (petrified wood, pinecones, etc.) > > 6. Madagascar (labradorite, petrified wood and lots of other cool stuff) > > 7. Gobi Desert, China (dinosaur bones, eggs) > > 8. Dominican Republic (amber) > > 9. A South African diamond mine (diamonds!) > > 10. Dorset (?) Lyme Regis, UK (where Mary Anning discovered, > > excavated, studied and sold fossils) > > 11. Giants Causeway, Ireland > > 12. Siccar Point, Scotland (site of James Hutton's unconformity) > > > > Anita Westlake > > > > H.Durstling wrote: > > > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> Up here on the Bay of Fundy the days are getting shorter, colder, > >> cloudier. > >> Winter lies ahead. Damn! - time to flee, time to travel - at least in the > >> mind. > >> > >> So in my imagination I've been putting together my geological dream tour, > >> inventory-ing a sort of top-ten of the geological wonders that, someday, > >> I'd like to visit. My spur of the moment wish list goes like this - > >> > >> - Cave of Swords, for the spectacular gypsum crystal rooms > >> > >> - That salt mine in Poland (what's its name???) where the miners over the > >> centuries > >> have sculpted an underground cathedral in the solid salt > >> > >> - Meteor Crater in Arizona, because of the perfection of its shape and > >> because it was > >> the first to be recognized as being of extra-terrestial origin > >> > >> - The limestone quarries in Solnhofen, Germany, the source of those > >> mazingly detailed fossils of the archeopterix, the flying lizard (hope I > >> have that biologically correct) originate > >> > >> - Namibia for the sake of its Namib desert and its vast array of > >> gemstones > >> > >> - Brazil, Minas Gerais, ditto > >> > >> - Iceland for its volanoes perhaps? > >> > >> No doubt there are other, many other, "must-see" places; but already I'm > >> drifting away from geology, and toward gemstones, which are my own > >> favorite > >> pursuit. So I thought I'd put the question out to the list members: > >> if you > >> had all the money in the world, and all the time in the world, what would > >> be _your_ favorite top ten, or top five, geological sites, and why > >> are they > >> important, significant, attractive, worthwhile? > >> > >> (It just occurs to me that maybe we can get Walt Bowser to do this for > >> real...*S*...) > >> > >> Anyway, let's do some winter dreaming... > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Hans Durstling > >> Moncton, Canada > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 10:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Fri Nov 8 10:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz References: <3DB9E1B0.3728FBF6@earthlink.net> <000a01c27ccf$05f03ce0$e4aa77d5@pandora.be> <3DCAFE7C.3020605@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001a01c28758$447b5380$6e3d27c4@horstspc> Hi group, George Swanson (an American geologist living in Springbok, Namaualand, South Afica) once used to mine "strawberry quartz" in Namibia at a place called Sinclair Mine. This is on the edge of the Namib Desert, the nearest small village being Helmeringshausen in the southern part of Namibia. I have visited this worked-out mine a few times already, but my interest was NOT the "strawberry quartz", but rather some micro material from this erstwhile copper deposit. The material was not all that wonderful, obtained some malachite sprays and some chrysocolla from there. Also spent a few days at the Sinclair Guest Farm during our travels in that country. As far as I can remember, this "strawberry quartz" had a faine reddish tinto to it. Regards, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz > There is some material called Strawberry quartz from near Casas Grande > in Mexico which is very similar. It is heavily included with hematite also. > > Walt > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > >Hoi Teresa > > > >Perhaps those brick-red double ended quartz crystals from the Sierra Orcheta > >in Spain might fit the name? > >They are opaque and saturated with hematite. Probably both quarz and > >hematite formed out of the same gel. > > > >cheers > > > >Axel Emmermann > >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > >E-mail: > >axel.emmermann@pandora.be > >Visit our homepage: > >http://www.minerant.org/index.html > >Bezoek onze web-site: > >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > >My own web-site: > >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Teresa Otis" > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:28 AM > >Subject: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz > > > > > >| Hi List Members, > >| > >| Does anyone have knowledge/information on ferrigenous (sp) quartz? We > >| have searched in several places looking for photos, location, general > >| pricing and are coming up empty. Spelling it wrong doesn't seem to > >| matter, lol. Where do we need to look? > >| > >| thanks for the help, > >| > >| Teresa Otis > >| _______________________________________________ > >| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >| Subscription Services: > >| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >| > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 11:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Fri Nov 8 11:12:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gronstedtite References: <000801c27b64$4b706b80$335204d0@jim> <3DCAEAD1.6050706@earthlink.net> <000801c28731$d0ade600$33820244@ph.cox.net> Message-ID: <000701c28759$98afeaa0$6a5204d0@jim> Yes, that was the consensus, and my customer agreed that it fit the description. Thanks to all that replied. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Dale To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gronstedtite > I suspect that it is Cronstedtite, a clay-like (crystallographically, > anyway) iron silicate. In its amorphous form, it can be kind of a "weed", > mineral... covering up the good stuff & nearly impossible to remove! > > Cheers, > Richard > www.dalerocks.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gronstedtite > > > > Jim > > Sorry to get back late, but been gone. The GRON might mean Green. If > > the "O" has an ulaut over it. Doesn't help with the ID, but might be a > > lead,. > > walt > > Jim Daly wrote: > > > > >A customer recently had a question I can't answer. > > >He has a specimen labelled "Gronstedtite, Gernrode, Harz, Germany", and > can't find any reference to that mineral. Neither can I. > > >Anyone ever hear of it? > > >Jim Daly > > >Sauktown Sales > > >Microminerals and mounting supplies > > >http://www.sauktown.com > > >sauktown@adsnet.com > > >or orders@sauktown.com > > > > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > >multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > >--- > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >Subscription Services: > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 13:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 8 13:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World Message-ID: <1e.1cc98d6.2afd8873@aol.com> How about Yellowstone NP?!? Mammoth Falls is amazing! Jackie In a message dated 11/8/02 1:18:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, kadok@infowest.com writes: > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World > > Wow, I surely glad someone mentioned the Grand Canyon, the grandest canyon > of all. Except Maybe for Zion Canyon, In Zion N. P. > Margaret --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 15:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD) Date: Fri Nov 8 15:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders Message-ID: <016b01c28780$ce8547c0$16551a43@uswest.net> I could also add to the list the remains of geological wonders or in = some cases the remnants. The huge erratic boulders and mile long ripple marks left by the ice age = Spokane floods that sent millions of gallons of water down the Columbia = River drainage. The immense caldera explosions in the past million years that created = Yellowstone Montana, Long Valley California, and the Valles crater in = New Mexico. At one time I lived in Tangier Morocco, my bedroom window looking out = over the Straights of Gibraltar. I could imagine viewing the rising = ocean water from melting Pleistocene glacial ice collapsing of the earth = causeway between Africa and Europe creating the Mediterranean Sea. Danny Steward / Seattle --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 16:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 8 16:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyritized Paraspirifer brachiopods, Sylvania Quarry, Ohio References: <188E3A1C-F33D-11D6-A1C1-0050E4FA984A@mac.com> Message-ID: <00e701c2878a$6d9345c0$3485f7a5@peggy> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris Murray" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyritized Paraspirifer brachiopods, Sylvania Quarry, Ohio i think I missed the response to this thread, if there was any. Could someone please repost any info they have that is pertinent? Thank you in advance KM On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 06:27 PM, Stephen Douglas wrote: > If the quarry is not open for collecting would anyone be able to > suggest alternate locations for collecting of pyritized fossils in the > general vicinity of Sylvania Quarry? Kris Murray J&M Publishing, Inc. Publishers of Snoflyer, Snow Tracks, Snow Biz, Tri-Power 220 SW 153rd Street, Burien, Washington 98166 1-877-434-7669 • (206) 433-8150 • fax 433-8150 www.jm-publishing.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 17:01:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 8 17:01:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] missouri Message-ID: <00f201c2878a$f8e837c0$3485f7a5@peggy> to list members planning to head out to Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee and Arkansas for = two weeks Dec 1-Dec 14. would appreciate any info on good collecting sites ,=20 thanks=20 barny --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 17:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Fri Nov 8 17:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz References: <3DB9E1B0.3728FBF6@earthlink.net> <000a01c27ccf$05f03ce0$e4aa77d5@pandora.be> <3DCAFE7C.3020605@earthlink.net> <001a01c28758$447b5380$6e3d27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3DCC6B86.1D785B2@earthlink.net> Hi horst and group, The original question regarding this material was brought about by a conversation with another rockhound proposing a trade. The information we were given on it included the following: we understood it to be from somewhere in Colorado. The pieces we were shown were fist sized crystal chunks with partial terminations intact. Having lived and collected in Arkansas for many years, we are fairly familiar with crystal structures and growth habits. There wasn't any identifiable matrix attached to it. Ferrigenous inclusions appeared to be of a deep pinkish red and mostly later growth and is restricted primarily to the outer quarter inch of the crystal 'jacket' which shows skeletal growth. The outer crystal 'shell' was fairly translucent, not quite gemmy, but cabby in some areas. This material reportedly came from a high altitude dig in the Teller County region. He believes it to be quite rare (whether that means the location or the mineral itself, isn't determined). It is possible it is from the collection of Durban Thorpe according to this person.......although we have no documenation to that. Being in possession of some extremely rare minerals and/or closed localities in Arkansas, we can appreciate that this COULD be rare but would like to ascertain more knowledge on it as well as its collectibility and possible values. In searching google, there were many hits, but everything so far has been of a technical orientation and not very helpful. Although we did find some information on the mineral locality in Africa. The information everyone has provided has been educational and interesting.......but if these further details can assist in something more definitive, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Teresa Otis horstwindisch wrote: > > Hi group, > > George Swanson (an American geologist living in Springbok, Namaualand, South > Afica) once used to mine "strawberry quartz" in Namibia at a place called > Sinclair Mine. This is on the edge of the Namib Desert, the nearest small > village being Helmeringshausen in the southern part of Namibia. I have > visited this worked-out mine a few times already, but my interest was NOT > the "strawberry quartz", but rather some micro material from this erstwhile > copper deposit. The material was not all that wonderful, obtained some > malachite sprays and some chrysocolla from there. Also spent a few days at > the Sinclair Guest Farm during our travels in that country. As far as I can > remember, this "strawberry quartz" had a faine reddish tinto to it. > > Regards, > > Horst > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 1:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz > > > There is some material called Strawberry quartz from near Casas Grande > > in Mexico which is very similar. It is heavily included with hematite > also. > > > > Walt > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > >Hoi Teresa > > > > > >Perhaps those brick-red double ended quartz crystals from the Sierra > Orcheta > > >in Spain might fit the name? > > >They are opaque and saturated with hematite. Probably both quarz and > > >hematite formed out of the same gel. > > > > > >cheers > > > > > >Axel Emmermann > > >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > Belgium > > >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > >E-mail: > > >axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > >Visit our homepage: > > >http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > >Bezoek onze web-site: > > >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > >My own web-site: > > >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Teresa Otis" > > >To: > > >Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:28 AM > > >Subject: [Rockhounds] ferrigenous quartz > > > > > > > > >| Hi List Members, > > >| > > >| Does anyone have knowledge/information on ferrigenous (sp) quartz? We > > >| have searched in several places looking for photos, location, general > > >| pricing and are coming up empty. Spelling it wrong doesn't seem to > > >| matter, lol. Where do we need to look? > > >| > > >| thanks for the help, > > >| > > >| Teresa Otis > > >| _______________________________________________ > > >| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >| Subscription Services: > > >| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >| > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >Subscription Services: > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 18:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Fri Nov 8 18:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] missouri References: <00f201c2878a$f8e837c0$3485f7a5@peggy> Message-ID: <3DCC6EF4.B9A9FD9@earthlink.net> Hi Barny, Magnet Cove, Arkansas. A great deal of the town is closed to rockhounds now (SADLY!!!!!!); but, as far as we know, you can still get down to Cove Creek for pyrite cubes in feldspar located IN the creek. US HWY 270(business route) runs through Magnet Cove (very very small town). At the eastern end of town there are roads that run north to the creek. Also, you can park on the side of the road near the cemetary and you very well find double terminated smoky quartz with brookites on them (the quartz can be up to 1 inch and more, if you are REALLY lucky!). Also at the Cove Creek bridge on 270, you can find nepheline cyanite specimens. The entire area around Magnet Cove is a rockhounds dream! Unfortunately, they have met bad rockhounds thru the years and also state officials have advised them to close many areas so be very careful where you go. The 'DO NOT TRESPASS' signs are very serious here. For some further info on this area, check out www.rockhoundingar.com Check with Stuart Schmidt on this list and check out his crystal mine in Mt. Ida. There is also a county quarry in his area for wavelite and variscite. have a great trip, teresa barny@mindspring.com wrote: > > to list members > planning to head out to Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee and Arkansas for two weeks Dec 1-Dec 14. > would appreciate any info on good collecting sites , > thanks > barny > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 19:08:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 8 19:08:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Show Message-ID: <18c.10eaea74.2afdd5f3@aol.com> Delaware Earth Science Suppliers Association New Millennium Show Waterfall Conference Center (Formerly Brandywine Terrace); 3416 Philadelphia Pike; Claymont, DE 19703 Saturday, November 9, 2002 - 10 A.M. to 6 P.M. Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 11 A.M. to 5 P.M. 6 Outstanding area dealers with a large selection of mineral specimens, fossils, gems and jewelry, lapidary rough, and supplies. Free Parking For further information, contact: Bob Jenkins - 302-453-1298 or E-Mail < coisaspreciosas@aol.com> Unsubscribe: rockhounds-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 8 20:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sherry Pauley) Date: Fri Nov 8 20:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Paleo Workshop - Bakersfield, CA Message-ID: The Buena Vista Museum of Natural History Paleo Workshop will be held on November 23, 2002. Cost for the one day workshop is $25.00. Attendees will be introduced to California's fascinating geology and Earth history in general, and upon completion of the Paleo Workshop, you will have learned how to restore and preserve fossils. You will receive a Certificate of Participation and be allowed to work in the Museum's paleontology restoration lab, and ultimately, at Sharktooth Hill on a paleontology "dig." The workshop starts at 9am, and ends at 3:30pm. Classes are limited in size, so sign up soon! You can call the museum and make reservations Thursday through Saturday, from 10am to 4pm. Phone: (661) 324-6350 Or: Fax: (661) 324-7522 Mailing address: BVMNH 2018 Chester Ave. Bakersfield, CA 93301 Thank You Sherry Pauley webmaster@sharktoothhill.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 9 04:32:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob G) Date: Sat Nov 9 04:32:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyritized Paraspirifer brachiopods, Sylvania Quarry, Ohio References: <188E3A1C-F33D-11D6-A1C1-0050E4FA984A@mac.com> Message-ID: <3DCD002B.9050501@netscape.net> A Google search on Sylvania found web sites for the Sylvania Park Dept that has turned one of the quarries into a park, collecting permitted, and that in September they had a kids fossil day where several truckloads of shale from an active quarry were dumped in town for kids to collect from with ID help. THe Park and city websites listed phone numbers and email contacts you might try. Kris Murray wrote: > i think I missed the response to this thread, if there was any. Could > someone please repost any info they have that is pertinent? Thank you > in advance > KM > On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 06:27 PM, Stephen Douglas wrote: > >> If the quarry is not open for collecting would anyone be able to >> suggest alternate locations for collecting of pyritized fossils in >> the general vicinity of Sylvania Quarry? > > Kris Murray > J&M Publishing, Inc. > Publishers of Snoflyer, Snow Tracks, Snow Biz, Tri-Power > 220 SW 153rd Street, Burien, Washington 98166 > 1-877-434-7669 • (206) 433-8150 • fax 433-8150 > www.jm-publishing.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 9 05:28:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Sat Nov 9 05:28:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Worcester Mineral Club Show Message-ID: HI All: Just wanted to put in a note about the Worcester (MA) Mineral Clubs Annual Show. The show dates are Sat and Sun November 23rd and 24th at the Lincoln Street National Guard Armory. There are some 16 dealers with minerals, fossils, jewelry and lapidary etc. The times both days are from 10:00 am to 5:00 pm. There are some very good dealers at this show both full time and some club members all of which provide a very good selection of material from worldwide and New England and nearby locations. Directions: take the Main Street Shrewsbury exit and go north until you see the armory about a half mile north on the left Take care, Larry Bull _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 9 07:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sat Nov 9 07:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] missouri References: <00f201c2878a$f8e837c0$3485f7a5@peggy> Message-ID: <003801c28807$25b59140$ecaf5a0c@fekib> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 7:57 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] missouri to list members planning to head out to Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee and Arkansas for two weeks Dec 1-Dec 14. would appreciate any info on good collecting sites , thanks barny -------------------- Clyde Hardin, who has been collecting at Magnet Cove for over 50 years, has a small shop at his home, 222 Ford Drive, Malvern, Ar. He has a huge selection of Magnet Cove minerals, knows all of the sites and will also trade. He is elderly and frail, but still keenly involved with the Magnst Cove mineral suites. Good collecting..........Larry Rush From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 9 22:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 9 22:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World Message-ID: <20021109.232130.-387031.2.stevenkaminski@juno.com> Speaking of Arizona...It's not a geologic wonder, but if you are interested in hydrology; geology; botany; military/native American history (the fort was the instrument of Geronimo's last days of freedom); the earliest days of compressor-based refrigeration; and the earliest days of wireless speed-of-light communication (the heliograph, I think it is called), I highly recommend visiting Fort Bowie. That is, if you have an extra 8 to 12 hours in southeast Arizona. It was described to me by someone who'd been before me as "nothing but remnants of some melting adobe walls". I went expecting to do the 1hour hike through the fort and leave. That one hour hike ended up being 5 hours of discovery after discovery. It's a long drive away from almost everything, but man was it worth it. Best regards to you all. Steve Kaminski ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 10 18:36:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Flannigan) Date: Sun Nov 10 18:36:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geological Wonders of the World References: <20021111020002.4013.7710.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <3DCF179D.20D37477@earthlink.net> Boy you are right about this one. I was there about 6-10 years ago or so, and it's one of the coolest places I've ever been. A real gem that relatively few people see. Not all that far off the main highway, and paved roads all the way now. The fort is in an outstanding location. The fort itself is not that spectacular, but everything around it is absolutely amazing. If you are into history, it's the place to be. Mike Flannigan > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:16:38 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World > From: stevenkaminski@juno.com > Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Speaking of Arizona...It's not a geologic wonder, but if you are > interested in hydrology; geology; botany; military/native American > history (the fort was the instrument of Geronimo's last days of freedom); > the earliest days of compressor-based refrigeration; and the earliest > days of wireless speed-of-light communication (the heliograph, I think it > is called), I highly recommend visiting Fort Bowie. That is, if you have > an extra 8 to 12 hours in southeast Arizona. It was described to me by > someone who'd been before me as "nothing but remnants of some melting > adobe walls". I went expecting to do the 1hour hike through the fort and > leave. That one hour hike ended up being 5 hours of discovery after > discovery. It's a long drive away from almost everything, but man was it > worth it. > > Best regards to you all. > > Steve Kaminski From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 10 21:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard Dale) Date: Sun Nov 10 21:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Phoenix Mineral & Gem Show References: Message-ID: <00fe01c28941$d9875600$33820244@ph.cox.net> Hi All, I have a few free passes for the Phoenix Show at the Civic Plaza next = weekend (Nov. 15-17). Each is good for 2 admissions, so it's a chance to = save ten bucks. Email me off-list with your snail-mail address and I'll send them out in = the order requests are received, until gone. Since Phoenix is about 5 times bigger than Tucson, their show should be = that much better, right? Well.... maybe not quite yet, but I'm sure it = will be worthwhile (especially for free!). Cheers, Richard Dale www.dalerocks.com dalerocks1@cox.net =20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 07:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Allison Nilsen) Date: Mon Nov 11 07:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] To all our Veteran's...Thanks! Message-ID: <3DCFD2F9.E66E7B9@plateautel.net> Just a little note to say thanks to all the Veteran's on our list. Thank you for my freedom! Sincerely, Allison From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 10:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 11 10:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] To all our Veteran's...Thanks! Message-ID: Allison, As a vet, thanks for your concern and appreciation. Too often we forget to acknowledge the part others have played in our lives. Pat Monroe From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 11:36:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Mon Nov 11 11:36:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit Message-ID: <006101c289b9$5b5be7a0$0f4127c4@horstspc> Hi List, I have a pamphlet issued by Jensan Educational Products U.S.A (issued in = 1998). in which they were offering Earth Science/Space Science Study = Kits for sale e.g. a Meteorite Study Kit (JPT-3569 going for $85); Moon = Rocks/Earth Rocks (JPT-3567 at $135); Impact Maps (JPT-3596 at $21.95) = and Elements of the Universe (HPT-3575 at $260). Can anybody supply me with the USA address of this company? Thank you. Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 13:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Robert McGuire) Date: Mon Nov 11 13:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit References: <006101c289b9$5b5be7a0$0f4127c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3DD01C5C.8355907B@epix.net> Hi Horst, I don't know of Jensan, but check out djminerals. He has quite an assortment of kits. http://www.djminerals.com/ Take care, Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horstwindisch wrote: > > Hi List, > > I have a pamphlet issued by Jensan Educational Products U.S.A (issued in 1998). in which they were offering Earth Science/Space Science Study Kits for sale e.g. a Meteorite Study Kit (JPT-3569 going for $85); Moon Rocks/Earth Rocks (JPT-3567 at $135); Impact Maps (JPT-3596 at $21.95) and Elements of the Universe (HPT-3575 at $260). > > Can anybody supply me with the USA address of this company? > > Thank you. > > Horst > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 13:13:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Nov 11 13:13:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit In-Reply-To: <006101c289b9$5b5be7a0$0f4127c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021111112018.00a04ec0@mail.aloha.net> At 09:18 AM 11/11/2002, you wrote: >Hi List, > >I have a pamphlet issued by Jensan Educational Products U.S.A (issued in >1998). in which they were offering Earth Science/Space Science Study Kits >for sale e.g. a Meteorite Study Kit (JPT-3569 going for $85); Moon >Rocks/Earth Rocks (JPT-3567 at $135); Impact Maps (JPT-3596 at $21.95) and >Elements of the Universe (HPT-3575 at $260). > >Can anybody supply me with the USA address of this company? > >Thank you. > >Horst Hi Horst, I didn't find a snail mail address, but here's a website, email and phone: http://store.yahoo.com/scimall-usa/index.html e-mail--> jensan@pcii.net ............phone 1-800-720-5451 (Central Time) Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 13:23:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Allison Nilsen) Date: Mon Nov 11 13:23:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Patriot's Prayer Message-ID: <3DD01FBD.30B9225B@plateautel.net> Like all Americans, O Lord, I breathe in Freedom's air. The awesome wonder of this gift inspires my grateful prayer. I'm thankful for resources You abundantly provide So dreams can be encouraged and needs can be supplied. I'm thankful for the blessing of a peaceful neighborhood, for soldiers, teachers, leaders who promote the common good. Give courage and protection, Lord, to those who help and serve, and grant all Veterans the blessings they so deserve. Amen From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 14:36:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Mon Nov 11 14:36:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodeve Message-ID: <001201c289d2$96701320$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi E-minners and rockhounders... Kan iemand mij vertellen wat de huidige vondstmogelijkheden zijn: -in de Lodeve (Le Bosc, Mas Lavayre, Rabejac, Mas d'Alary, Rivieral) -en rond St.-Priest-la-Prugne (Bois Noirs, Limouzat, Lagadaillere) Ik heb me een avond met een kennis te pletter zitten te googlen, maar = wordt niet veel wijzer... en yep... , ik wil stralend in het donker terugkomen ;-) Can anyone tell me of current possibilities of looking for (and finding = ;-) minerals -in the Lodeve (Le Bosc, Mas Lavayre, Rabejac, Mas d'Alary, Rivieral) -and around St.-Priest-la-Prugne (Bois Noirs, Limouzat, Lagadaillere) Cheers! Frank http://www.strahlen.org/ MSN nickname: str4hler --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 15:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 11 15:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Patriot's Prayer Message-ID: <16d.15690b18.2b0192ff@aol.com> In a message dated 11/11/02 1:22:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, digem@plateautel.net writes: > Give courage and protection, Lord, > to those who help and serve, > and grant all Veterans > the blessings they so deserve. > But don't forget the others. Phouc Vinh, South Vietnam U. S. Army Helicopter Crew Members: Pilot WO1 CUMMINGS JAMES E JR KIA 11/12/1968 Copilot WO1 MONG WILBUR LEROY KIA 11/12/1968 Crew Chief SGT MCCURTAIN CHARLES RAY JR KIA 11/12/1968 Gunner SGT LARSON DALE K KIA 11/12/1968 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 18:31:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Mon Nov 11 18:31:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes Message-ID: <3DD06816.1AE2F6F3@earthlink.net> Hi list, I am trying to find a good supplier (with good prices lol) for the basic white boxes to display individual minerals in as well as the 'beer flat' type boxes used for storage and display tables at shows. If anyone knows of someone selling them direct, that would very helpful. I would rather not go thru a 3rd or 4th party individual, but if you know of one of those also, it would be appreciated! Apparently, it's not as easy to locate a dealer as I thought it would be. Thanks for any information and/or leads. Teresa Otis From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 18:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 11 18:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes Message-ID: <14e.173fb101.2b01c62c@aol.com> In a message dated 11/11/02 6:32:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, totis@earthlink.net writes: > I am trying to find a good supplier (with good prices lol) for the basic > white boxes to display individual minerals in as well as the 'beer flat' > type boxes used for storage and display tables at shows. If anyone > knows of someone selling them direct, that would very helpful. > Try here http://www.geoed.com/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 19:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 11 19:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes Message-ID: Of course the BEER FLATS you get from the liquor store or grocery store...You can ask most and they will save them for you. The white boxes, if you want to go the cheapest way possible? Make your own..it just takes some heavy paper that can be gotten at any stationary supply store I don't remember the weight now but you can ask and they will tell you or you can feel it. And if this is the way you want to go I can look up one of my patterns and that will give you an idea and then you can adjust to the size that you want just by making them a little bigger or smaller as you wish... For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 11 20:32:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ray Prater, Jr.) Date: Mon Nov 11 20:32:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit References: <006101c289b9$5b5be7a0$0f4127c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <008e01c28a03$d7398040$0e5ce5d8@dell> http://www.sciencemall-usa.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: horstwindisch To: rockhounds Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit Hi List, I have a pamphlet issued by Jensan Educational Products U.S.A (issued in 1998). in which they were offering Earth Science/Space Science Study Kits for sale e.g. a Meteorite Study Kit (JPT-3569 going for $85); Moon Rocks/Earth Rocks (JPT-3567 at $135); Impact Maps (JPT-3596 at $21.95) and Elements of the Universe (HPT-3575 at $260). From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 02:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (T A Masters) Date: Tue Nov 12 02:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes Message-ID: <3DD0D91C.C8D83024@cox.net> Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had an incredibly large Gold Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. At that time he told a story about pending litigation against him for the death of a miner. It was so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about it. I just received the following. This looks like a lynching. Any ideas? Teresa > > Local news provided by: latimes.com > > Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only Trouble Now > By Lee Romney > > To hear some tell it, Michael Meister Miller's fight is the Mother > Lode's last stand. > > Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has yielded some of the > state's densest gold concentrations. Mined today much as it > was a century ago by mud-caked men with picks, drills and dynamite, it > is a living link to California's Gold Rush era. > > For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > To others, it is a throwback to a reckless time of needless > injuries to people and the environment. > > Today, after the death of a miner, that way of life is on trial -- not > just in the court of public opinion, but in the Sierra County > Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager face manslaughter and other > felony charges. > > The indictments of Miller, 60, and 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > only the third time that felony charges have been brought > against individuals under a 2-year-old labor law for "willful violation > of a safety standard" that results in death. > > The case has divided a county that still clings to its mining roots > despite the industry's decline and a steady trickle of newcomers > who don't rely on the region's traditional sources of income -- logging > and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for its fading way of > life. > > These days, local businesses in the county seat of Downieville, about an > hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are more > dependent on mountain bikers and other recreational tourists. > Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno drive up property > values. The shift is aligning the county more closely with a modern > California -- one defined by tough environmental and > workplace protections. > > "Miller was born 70 years too late," said Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > County Superior Court judge and former Sixteen to One > board member. "If you're going to extract minerals in the regulated > civilized community, you're going to have to abide by a whole > lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back then and it was easier, > but things have changed." > > The Sixteen to One is among about a half-dozen underground hard-rock > mines still operating in California, and the only > commercial gold mine left in a county that owes its origins to mining. > > While low gold prices, industry consolidation and cumbersome regulations > have driven off most small subsurface operators, > Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the regulators. He and his men > dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 miles of dank > tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly 100 years ago. These days, > profits are so meager that neither Miller nor his > skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > > State and federal regulators have cited the mine more than 180 times > over the last decade for faulty escape routes, broken > ladders, improper storage of explosives. State water quality officials > have fined the company for allowing arsenic-laden water to > flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the downstream drinking supply. > > The manslaughter charges stem from the death two years ago of miner Mark > Fussell, 36. > > Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in the mine and had put it in > reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was crushed > between the locomotive's battery and an ore chute that investigators say > protruded lower than others in the mine and was > unmarked. They also allege that the gears malfunctioned and that the > locomotive had been placed on the track backward. > > The mine had been cited previously for not marking a similar ore chute > on a different level of the mine. That opened the door for > prosecutors to file felony charges against Miller and Farrell. > > An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > > The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the decision to charge Miller and > Farrell and not just the company that controls the mine. > > "The bottom line is corporations don't make decisions, individuals do," > said Filter, who heads the California District Attorneys > Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute only the most egregious > type of conduct," Filter added. > > Miller called the case "meritless," saying it was Fussell's job to mark > hazards, like the one that killed him, and blamed the miner's > death on his own negligence. > > "Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool killer," Miller said. > > Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during the incident. Moreover, a > state inspector had stood beneath the same chute a week > earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller said. > > If he can be charged with killing his worker under those circumstances, > said Miller, the industry is headed for trouble. > > "There are people who feel that California will be a better place > without the ability to produce gold, and they'll use any means to > try to accomplish that," Miller said. > > Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors still dredge the rivers for > gold and work small, private claims. A sign in the office of > the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We Support the Mother Lode > Miners and the American Mining Industry and They > Support Us." > > Many remain convinced that a spike in gold prices is all that's needed > to revive the Mother Lode. > > "All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send gold sky high," said David > O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works an > underground claim on evenings and weekends and heads the nearly defunct > Northern Mining Council. > > "My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be honest, you've got to have > money and you've got to have patience.' You put those > ingredients together and we'll have gold mining in this area again." > > Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's death was the mine's first > fatality in more than 50 years. This year alone, 56 people > have died in mines around the country. > > "No one believed that anything but an accident had happened," said Bill > Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it might be, > it's the nature of the business. You can be a computer assistant manager > if you don't want your job to kill you." > > "Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent is not one of them," said > Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied owner of the weekly > Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > > The Sixteen to One was carved out of the granite bedrock of the central > Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who named it > in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's presidential campaign > proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price ratio. > > Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like concentrations of high-grade > ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 when it was > effectively closed, then mined only sporadically by locals who leased > the claims. > > Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara when he first visited the mine > in 1974. It was the same year that the federal government > allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, to trade on the open > market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an ounce by 1980. > > He seized control of the company that owned the Sixteen to One in 1983 > after a spirited six-year proxy battle, becoming its chief > executive. At first, Miller leased the mining claims to a series of > exploration companies. When they pulled out in 1991, Miller took > over day-to-day operations. > > A series of multimillion-dollar finds followed. The company rolled much > of its profits back into mine improvements, Miller said, and > began acquiring other mining properties. But in recent years, the > Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > > The company's prized collection of gold specimens and carved gold-laced > quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock was > delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for consistently trading below > a dollar. > > Compounding Miller's financial troubles has been a growing pile of > safety and environmental citations. > > Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an arsenic discharge, and > ultimately reduce it to required drinking water standards. After > he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction plan or pay more than $27,000 > in overdue fines and permit fees, his case was referred to > the state attorney general's office, a deputy attorney general said. > > Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > > Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of six, makes its daily trek a > half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek Canyon. > There, the men use metal detectors and dynamite in their quest for > another payload. > > The men check pumps that suck water from the mine's lower levels, > exposing what they hope will be another rich vein. > > By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from the portal, the day's take > of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty tube sock. > > They split the proceeds from the communal haul. Recently, that has come > to little more than $3 an hour per man. > > Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's cause suggest it may be time > to let go of a way of life that is more trouble than it is > worth. > > "In the underground small operation that was popular from 1850 right up > until five or six years ago, there are just a few > hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, who shut down his own gold > mine here earlier this year. > > "There will always be people beating their heads against rock. That's > gone on since biblical times. But it won't be a viable > industry as such." > > The county's economy once depended almost exclusively on mining and > logging, but it has been decades since mining was a > significant economic force here. Logging too, is a shadow of its former > self, with the last sawmill recently shuttered. Government > now employs more than 40% in this county of 3,100. > > "As a resource-based economy, it's completely dead," said Sierra County > Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local historian. "Mike > is just an artifact." > > Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him to wrest a commodity from > the earth and create wealth, he said. The experience is a > "dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, he defends what's left of > the dream with Old West bluster and an ivory-handled .38 > pistol tucked in his waistband. > > He says he's been targeted as part of a "rural cleansing" campaign > against miners, loggers, ranchers and other old-fashioned > country folk. > > "The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, and they represent the last > of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. "It's a symbol to a > lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 04:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 04:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes Message-ID: <20021112125249.OQXX24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc21> Teresa my friend, Try www.riogrande.com (Rio Grande)--they sell tools & supplies, display & packaging, as well as metals & gems. They are in nearby New Mex (nearby to you, that is), so shipping times should be short. You will need to open an acocunt with them; I don't know if you need a business license to buy their displays & packaging, so check that out. The prices go down the more you buy, and they have a fairly liberal mix & match policy on bulk pricing. There may be cheaper out there, but their friendly service, quick order fulfillment, and cordial return policy (I have had one broken item in 6 years, and they simply sent me a new one) are the kind of things that make people loyal customers. For flats, I think most people use Denver Box Company. They also make boxes that fit into their flats; you'd need to compare quantities & prices vs. Rio Grande to see which is the better deal for you. If I remember correctly, their prices don't get good until you buy a fair amount of bulk (at least, what I'd call good, considering you are buying a disposable cardboard item). I kust say that Denver boxes are durable and come in some hard-to-find, deep sizes. I have never bought from them directly, since I don't use that many flats I usually scrounge them from dealers for a few bucks; so I can't comment on their service. Hope this helps! Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 04:57:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 04:57:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes Message-ID: <20021112125655.OLCG4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> Here is the address for Denver Box Co. http://denverbox.com/ John Teague Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > From: morningstar@att.net > Date: 2002/11/12 Tue AM 07:52:49 EST > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes > > > Teresa my friend, > > Try www.riogrande.com (Rio Grande)--they sell tools & supplies, display & > packaging, as well as metals & gems. They are in nearby New Mex (nearby to > you, that is), so shipping times should be short. You will need to open an > acocunt with them; I don't know if you need a business license to buy their > displays & packaging, so check that out. The prices go down the more you buy, > and they have a fairly liberal mix & match policy on bulk pricing. There may > be cheaper out there, but their friendly service, quick order fulfillment, and > cordial return policy (I have had one broken item in 6 years, and they simply > sent me a new one) are the kind of things that make people loyal customers. > > For flats, I think most people use Denver Box Company. They also make boxes > that fit into their flats; you'd need to compare quantities & prices vs. Rio > Grande to see which is the better deal for you. If I remember correctly, their > prices don't get good until you buy a fair amount of bulk (at least, what I'd > call good, considering you are buying a disposable cardboard item). I kust say > that Denver boxes are durable and come in some hard-to-find, deep sizes. I > have never bought from them directly, since I don't use that many flats I > usually scrounge them from dealers for a few bucks; so I can't comment on their > service. > > Hope this helps! > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 05:58:07 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Tue Nov 12 05:58:07 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Paleo Workshop - Bakersfield, CA References: Message-ID: <3DD10836.80300@emory.edu> Hi Sherry: Thanks for the posting on fossil prep. This is something I've always wanted to learn, but alas, I live in Georgia. Would you happen to know of any workshops out this way? Thanks, Anita Sherry Pauley wrote: >The Buena Vista Museum of Natural History Paleo Workshop will be held on >November 23, 2002. Cost for the one day workshop is $25.00. Attendees will >be introduced to California's fascinating geology and Earth history in >general, and upon completion of the Paleo Workshop, you will have learned >how to restore and preserve fossils. You will receive a Certificate of >Participation and be allowed to work in the Museum's paleontology >restoration lab, and ultimately, at Sharktooth Hill on a paleontology "dig." >The workshop starts at 9am, and ends at 3:30pm. Classes are limited in size, >so sign up soon! > >You can call the museum and make reservations Thursday through Saturday, >from 10am to 4pm. Phone: (661) 324-6350 > >Or: >Fax: (661) 324-7522 > >Mailing address: BVMNH >2018 Chester Ave. >Bakersfield, CA 93301 > >Thank You >Sherry Pauley >webmaster@sharktoothhill.com >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 06:39:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Tue Nov 12 06:39:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes References: <3DD06816.1AE2F6F3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000a01c28a58$0f184880$105204d0@jim> David Shannon Minerals 6649 E. Rustic Dr. Mesa, AZ 85215 (480) 985-0557 He isn't on-line David sells fold-up boxes in a variety of sizes, and good quality flats. He doesn't manufacture them, but is the only middle-man in the chain, as far as I know. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.sauktown.com sauktown@adsnet.com or orders@sauktown.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Teresa Otis To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:31 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] display and storage boxes > Hi list, > > I am trying to find a good supplier (with good prices lol) for the basic > white boxes to display individual minerals in as well as the 'beer flat' > type boxes used for storage and display tables at shows. If anyone > knows of someone selling them direct, that would very helpful. I would > rather not go thru a 3rd or 4th party individual, but if you know of one > of those also, it would be appreciated! > > Apparently, it's not as easy to locate a dealer as I thought it would > be. Thanks for any information and/or leads. > > Teresa Otis > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 10:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard Dale) Date: Tue Nov 12 10:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: <3DD0D91C.C8D83024@cox.net> Message-ID: <001e01c28a7d$1f3e0ae0$33820244@ph.cox.net> Not a lynching - just a very small-scale example of why mining is now almost all overseas (and declining there!). My only surprise is that there are not a string of federal charges as well. Richard ----------------------------------------------- > I posted a ,message about it. I just received the > following. This looks like a lynching. Any ideas? > Teresa > > > Local news provided by: latimes.com > > > > Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only Trouble Now > > By Lee Romney > > > > To hear some tell it, Michael Meister Miller's fight is the Mother > > Lode's last stand. > > > > Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has yielded some of the > > state's densest gold concentrations. Mined today much as it > > was a century ago by mud-caked men with picks, drills and dynamite, it > > is a living link to California's Gold Rush era. > > > > For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > > To others, it is a throwback to a reckless time of needless > > injuries to people and the environment. > > > > Today, after the death of a miner, that way of life is on trial -- not > > just in the court of public opinion, but in the Sierra County > > Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager face manslaughter and other > > felony charges. > > > > The indictments of Miller, 60, and 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > > only the third time that felony charges have been brought > > against individuals under a 2-year-old labor law for "willful violation > > of a safety standard" that results in death. > > > > The case has divided a county that still clings to its mining roots > > despite the industry's decline and a steady trickle of newcomers > > who don't rely on the region's traditional sources of income -- logging > > and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for its fading way of > > life. > > > > These days, local businesses in the county seat of Downieville, about an > > hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are more > > dependent on mountain bikers and other recreational tourists. > > Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno drive up property > > values. The shift is aligning the county more closely with a modern > > California -- one defined by tough environmental and > > workplace protections. > > > > "Miller was born 70 years too late," said Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > > County Superior Court judge and former Sixteen to One > > board member. "If you're going to extract minerals in the regulated > > civilized community, you're going to have to abide by a whole > > lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back then and it was easier, > > but things have changed." > > > > The Sixteen to One is among about a half-dozen underground hard-rock > > mines still operating in California, and the only > > commercial gold mine left in a county that owes its origins to mining. > > > > While low gold prices, industry consolidation and cumbersome regulations > > have driven off most small subsurface operators, > > Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the regulators. He and his men > > dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 miles of dank > > tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly 100 years ago. These days, > > profits are so meager that neither Miller nor his > > skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > > > > State and federal regulators have cited the mine more than 180 times > > over the last decade for faulty escape routes, broken > > ladders, improper storage of explosives. State water quality officials > > have fined the company for allowing arsenic-laden water to > > flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the downstream drinking supply. > > > > The manslaughter charges stem from the death two years ago of miner Mark > > Fussell, 36. > > > > Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in the mine and had put it in > > reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was crushed > > between the locomotive's battery and an ore chute that investigators say > > protruded lower than others in the mine and was > > unmarked. They also allege that the gears malfunctioned and that the > > locomotive had been placed on the track backward. > > > > The mine had been cited previously for not marking a similar ore chute > > on a different level of the mine. That opened the door for > > prosecutors to file felony charges against Miller and Farrell. > > > > An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > > > > The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the decision to charge Miller and > > Farrell and not just the company that controls the mine. > > > > "The bottom line is corporations don't make decisions, individuals do," > > said Filter, who heads the California District Attorneys > > Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute only the most egregious > > type of conduct," Filter added. > > > > Miller called the case "meritless," saying it was Fussell's job to mark > > hazards, like the one that killed him, and blamed the miner's > > death on his own negligence. > > > > "Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool killer," Miller said. > > > > Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during the incident. Moreover, a > > state inspector had stood beneath the same chute a week > > earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller said. > > > > If he can be charged with killing his worker under those circumstances, > > said Miller, the industry is headed for trouble. > > > > "There are people who feel that California will be a better place > > without the ability to produce gold, and they'll use any means to > > try to accomplish that," Miller said. > > > > Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors still dredge the rivers for > > gold and work small, private claims. A sign in the office of > > the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We Support the Mother Lode > > Miners and the American Mining Industry and They > > Support Us." > > > > Many remain convinced that a spike in gold prices is all that's needed > > to revive the Mother Lode. > > > > "All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send gold sky high," said David > > O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works an > > underground claim on evenings and weekends and heads the nearly defunct > > Northern Mining Council. > > > > "My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be honest, you've got to have > > money and you've got to have patience.' You put those > > ingredients together and we'll have gold mining in this area again." > > > > Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's death was the mine's first > > fatality in more than 50 years. This year alone, 56 people > > have died in mines around the country. > > > > "No one believed that anything but an accident had happened," said Bill > > Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it might be, > > it's the nature of the business. You can be a computer assistant manager > > if you don't want your job to kill you." > > > > "Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent is not one of them," said > > Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied owner of the weekly > > Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > > > > The Sixteen to One was carved out of the granite bedrock of the central > > Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who named it > > in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's presidential campaign > > proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price ratio. > > > > Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like concentrations of high-grade > > ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 when it was > > effectively closed, then mined only sporadically by locals who leased > > the claims. > > > > Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara when he first visited the mine > > in 1974. It was the same year that the federal government > > allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, to trade on the open > > market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an ounce by 1980. > > > > He seized control of the company that owned the Sixteen to One in 1983 > > after a spirited six-year proxy battle, becoming its chief > > executive. At first, Miller leased the mining claims to a series of > > exploration companies. When they pulled out in 1991, Miller took > > over day-to-day operations. > > > > A series of multimillion-dollar finds followed. The company rolled much > > of its profits back into mine improvements, Miller said, and > > began acquiring other mining properties. But in recent years, the > > Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > > > > The company's prized collection of gold specimens and carved gold-laced > > quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock was > > delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for consistently trading below > > a dollar. > > > > Compounding Miller's financial troubles has been a growing pile of > > safety and environmental citations. > > > > Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an arsenic discharge, and > > ultimately reduce it to required drinking water standards. After > > he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction plan or pay more than $27,000 > > in overdue fines and permit fees, his case was referred to > > the state attorney general's office, a deputy attorney general said. > > > > Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > > > > Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of six, makes its daily trek a > > half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek Canyon. > > There, the men use metal detectors and dynamite in their quest for > > another payload. > > > > The men check pumps that suck water from the mine's lower levels, > > exposing what they hope will be another rich vein. > > > > By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from the portal, the day's take > > of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty tube sock. > > > > They split the proceeds from the communal haul. Recently, that has come > > to little more than $3 an hour per man. > > > > Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's cause suggest it may be time > > to let go of a way of life that is more trouble than it is > > worth. > > > > "In the underground small operation that was popular from 1850 right up > > until five or six years ago, there are just a few > > hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, who shut down his own gold > > mine here earlier this year. > > > > "There will always be people beating their heads against rock. That's > > gone on since biblical times. But it won't be a viable > > industry as such." > > > > The county's economy once depended almost exclusively on mining and > > logging, but it has been decades since mining was a > > significant economic force here. Logging too, is a shadow of its former > > self, with the last sawmill recently shuttered. Government > > now employs more than 40% in this county of 3,100. > > > > "As a resource-based economy, it's completely dead," said Sierra County > > Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local historian. "Mike > > is just an artifact." > > > > Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him to wrest a commodity from > > the earth and create wealth, he said. The experience is a > > "dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, he defends what's left of > > the dream with Old West bluster and an ivory-handled .38 > > pistol tucked in his waistband. > > > > He says he's been targeted as part of a "rural cleansing" campaign > > against miners, loggers, ranchers and other old-fashioned > > country folk. > > > > "The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, and they represent the last > > of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. "It's a symbol to a > > lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 11:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Tue Nov 12 11:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: <3DD0D91C.C8D83024@cox.net> <001e01c28a7d$1f3e0ae0$33820244@ph.cox.net> Message-ID: <000701c28a81$f096bca0$69ca94d1@remains> maybe you should think about the reasons WHY laws like this have become the norm? if people weren't so litigation happy, and ready to sue for every broken fingernail caused by their own stupidity, then perhaps laws wouldn't be as "extreme" as they are. the result is that there are laws in place to protect the ignorant as well as the sensible, and we as a society are responsible for these laws. I'm willing to bet that if one of your relatives were killed in a mine because of safety rules that were not followed (apparently on several occasions) you would be the first one looking for someone to be held accountable. this is not a lynching. this is accountability for not obeying the law. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Dale" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes > Not a lynching - just a very small-scale example of why mining is now almost > all overseas (and declining there!). My only surprise is that there are not > a string of federal charges as well. Richard > ----------------------------------------------- > > I posted a ,message about it. I just received the > > following. This looks like a lynching. Any ideas? > > Teresa > > > > > Local news provided by: latimes.com > > > > > > Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only Trouble Now > > > By Lee Romney > > > > > > To hear some tell it, Michael Meister Miller's fight is the Mother > > > Lode's last stand. > > > > > > Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has yielded some of the > > > state's densest gold concentrations. Mined today much as it > > > was a century ago by mud-caked men with picks, drills and dynamite, it > > > is a living link to California's Gold Rush era. > > > > > > For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > > > To others, it is a throwback to a reckless time of needless > > > injuries to people and the environment. > > > > > > Today, after the death of a miner, that way of life is on trial -- not > > > just in the court of public opinion, but in the Sierra County > > > Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager face manslaughter and other > > > felony charges. > > > > > > The indictments of Miller, 60, and 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > > > only the third time that felony charges have been brought > > > against individuals under a 2-year-old labor law for "willful violation > > > of a safety standard" that results in death. > > > > > > The case has divided a county that still clings to its mining roots > > > despite the industry's decline and a steady trickle of newcomers > > > who don't rely on the region's traditional sources of income -- logging > > > and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for its fading way of > > > life. > > > > > > These days, local businesses in the county seat of Downieville, about an > > > hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are more > > > dependent on mountain bikers and other recreational tourists. > > > Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno drive up property > > > values. The shift is aligning the county more closely with a modern > > > California -- one defined by tough environmental and > > > workplace protections. > > > > > > "Miller was born 70 years too late," said Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > > > County Superior Court judge and former Sixteen to One > > > board member. "If you're going to extract minerals in the regulated > > > civilized community, you're going to have to abide by a whole > > > lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back then and it was easier, > > > but things have changed." > > > > > > The Sixteen to One is among about a half-dozen underground hard-rock > > > mines still operating in California, and the only > > > commercial gold mine left in a county that owes its origins to mining. > > > > > > While low gold prices, industry consolidation and cumbersome regulations > > > have driven off most small subsurface operators, > > > Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the regulators. He and his men > > > dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 miles of dank > > > tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly 100 years ago. These days, > > > profits are so meager that neither Miller nor his > > > skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > > > > > > State and federal regulators have cited the mine more than 180 times > > > over the last decade for faulty escape routes, broken > > > ladders, improper storage of explosives. State water quality officials > > > have fined the company for allowing arsenic-laden water to > > > flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the downstream drinking supply. > > > > > > The manslaughter charges stem from the death two years ago of miner Mark > > > Fussell, 36. > > > > > > Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in the mine and had put it in > > > reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was crushed > > > between the locomotive's battery and an ore chute that investigators say > > > protruded lower than others in the mine and was > > > unmarked. They also allege that the gears malfunctioned and that the > > > locomotive had been placed on the track backward. > > > > > > The mine had been cited previously for not marking a similar ore chute > > > on a different level of the mine. That opened the door for > > > prosecutors to file felony charges against Miller and Farrell. > > > > > > An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > > > > > > The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the decision to charge Miller and > > > Farrell and not just the company that controls the mine. > > > > > > "The bottom line is corporations don't make decisions, individuals do," > > > said Filter, who heads the California District Attorneys > > > Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute only the most egregious > > > type of conduct," Filter added. > > > > > > Miller called the case "meritless," saying it was Fussell's job to mark > > > hazards, like the one that killed him, and blamed the miner's > > > death on his own negligence. > > > > > > "Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool killer," Miller said. > > > > > > Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during the incident. Moreover, a > > > state inspector had stood beneath the same chute a week > > > earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller said. > > > > > > If he can be charged with killing his worker under those circumstances, > > > said Miller, the industry is headed for trouble. > > > > > > "There are people who feel that California will be a better place > > > without the ability to produce gold, and they'll use any means to > > > try to accomplish that," Miller said. > > > > > > Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors still dredge the rivers for > > > gold and work small, private claims. A sign in the office of > > > the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We Support the Mother Lode > > > Miners and the American Mining Industry and They > > > Support Us." > > > > > > Many remain convinced that a spike in gold prices is all that's needed > > > to revive the Mother Lode. > > > > > > "All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send gold sky high," said David > > > O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works an > > > underground claim on evenings and weekends and heads the nearly defunct > > > Northern Mining Council. > > > > > > "My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be honest, you've got to have > > > money and you've got to have patience.' You put those > > > ingredients together and we'll have gold mining in this area again." > > > > > > Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's death was the mine's first > > > fatality in more than 50 years. This year alone, 56 people > > > have died in mines around the country. > > > > > > "No one believed that anything but an accident had happened," said Bill > > > Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it might be, > > > it's the nature of the business. You can be a computer assistant manager > > > if you don't want your job to kill you." > > > > > > "Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent is not one of them," said > > > Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied owner of the weekly > > > Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > > > > > > The Sixteen to One was carved out of the granite bedrock of the central > > > Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who named it > > > in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's presidential campaign > > > proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price ratio. > > > > > > Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like concentrations of high-grade > > > ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 when it was > > > effectively closed, then mined only sporadically by locals who leased > > > the claims. > > > > > > Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara when he first visited the mine > > > in 1974. It was the same year that the federal government > > > allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, to trade on the open > > > market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an ounce by 1980. > > > > > > He seized control of the company that owned the Sixteen to One in 1983 > > > after a spirited six-year proxy battle, becoming its chief > > > executive. At first, Miller leased the mining claims to a series of > > > exploration companies. When they pulled out in 1991, Miller took > > > over day-to-day operations. > > > > > > A series of multimillion-dollar finds followed. The company rolled much > > > of its profits back into mine improvements, Miller said, and > > > began acquiring other mining properties. But in recent years, the > > > Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > > > > > > The company's prized collection of gold specimens and carved gold-laced > > > quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock was > > > delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for consistently trading below > > > a dollar. > > > > > > Compounding Miller's financial troubles has been a growing pile of > > > safety and environmental citations. > > > > > > Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an arsenic discharge, and > > > ultimately reduce it to required drinking water standards. After > > > he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction plan or pay more than $27,000 > > > in overdue fines and permit fees, his case was referred to > > > the state attorney general's office, a deputy attorney general said. > > > > > > Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > > > > > > Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of six, makes its daily trek a > > > half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek Canyon. > > > There, the men use metal detectors and dynamite in their quest for > > > another payload. > > > > > > The men check pumps that suck water from the mine's lower levels, > > > exposing what they hope will be another rich vein. > > > > > > By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from the portal, the day's take > > > of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty tube sock. > > > > > > They split the proceeds from the communal haul. Recently, that has come > > > to little more than $3 an hour per man. > > > > > > Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's cause suggest it may be time > > > to let go of a way of life that is more trouble than it is > > > worth. > > > > > > "In the underground small operation that was popular from 1850 right up > > > until five or six years ago, there are just a few > > > hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, who shut down his own gold > > > mine here earlier this year. > > > > > > "There will always be people beating their heads against rock. That's > > > gone on since biblical times. But it won't be a viable > > > industry as such." > > > > > > The county's economy once depended almost exclusively on mining and > > > logging, but it has been decades since mining was a > > > significant economic force here. Logging too, is a shadow of its former > > > self, with the last sawmill recently shuttered. Government > > > now employs more than 40% in this county of 3,100. > > > > > > "As a resource-based economy, it's completely dead," said Sierra County > > > Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local historian. "Mike > > > is just an artifact." > > > > > > Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him to wrest a commodity from > > > the earth and create wealth, he said. The experience is a > > > "dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, he defends what's left of > > > the dream with Old West bluster and an ivory-handled .38 > > > pistol tucked in his waistband. > > > > > > He says he's been targeted as part of a "rural cleansing" campaign > > > against miners, loggers, ranchers and other old-fashioned > > > country folk. > > > > > > "The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, and they represent the last > > > of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. "It's a symbol to a > > > lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 11:50:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Tue Nov 12 11:50:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes Message-ID: Michael, you're mixing up two different aspects of law. People suing each other is civil law. This case is criminal law. Jimmy On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:30:18 -0700 Michael Schmidt wrote: > maybe you should think about the reasons WHY > laws like this have become the > norm? > > if people weren't so litigation happy, and > ready to sue for every broken > fingernail caused by their own stupidity, then > perhaps laws wouldn't be as > "extreme" as they are. > > the result is that there are laws in place to > protect the ignorant as well > as the sensible, and we as a society are > responsible for these laws. > > I'm willing to bet that if one of your > relatives were killed in a mine > because of safety rules that were not followed > (apparently on several > occasions) you would be the first one looking > for someone to be held > accountable. > > this is not a lynching. this is accountability > for not obeying the law. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Dale" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes > > > > Not a lynching - just a very small-scale > example of why mining is now > almost > > all overseas (and declining there!). My only > surprise is that there are > not > > a string of federal charges as well. > Richard > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > I posted a ,message about it. I just > received the > > > following. This looks like a lynching. Any > ideas? > > > Teresa > > > > > > > Local news provided by: latimes.com > > > > > > > > Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes > Only Trouble Now > > > > By Lee Romney > > > > > > > > To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > Miller's fight is the Mother > > > > Lode's last stand. > > > > > > > > Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, > has yielded some of the > > > > state's densest gold concentrations. > Mined today much as it > > > > was a century ago by mud-caked men with > picks, drills and dynamite, it > > > > is a living link to California's Gold > Rush era. > > > > > > > > For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > gritty pageantry of the > '49ers. > > > > To others, it is a throwback to a > reckless time of needless > > > > injuries to people and the environment. > > > > > > > > Today, after the death of a miner, that > way of life is on trial -- not > > > > just in the court of public opinion, but > in the Sierra County > > > > Courthouse where Miller and his mine > manager face manslaughter and > other > > > > felony charges. > > > > > > > > The indictments of Miller, 60, and > 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > > > > only the third time that felony charges > have been brought > > > > against individuals under a 2-year-old > labor law for "willful > violation > > > > of a safety standard" that results in > death. > > > > > > > > The case has divided a county that still > clings to its mining roots > > > > despite the industry's decline and a > steady trickle of newcomers > > > > who don't rely on the region's > traditional sources of income -- > logging > > > > and mining -- or profess much nostalgia > for its fading way of > > > > life. > > > > > > > > These days, local businesses in the > county seat of Downieville, about > an > > > > hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, > are more > > > > dependent on mountain bikers and other > recreational tourists. > > > > Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > drive up property > > > > values. The shift is aligning the county > more closely with a modern > > > > California -- one defined by tough > environmental and > > > > workplace protections. > > > > > > > > "Miller was born 70 years too late," said > Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > > > > County Superior Court judge and former > Sixteen to One > > > > board member. "If you're going to extract > minerals in the regulated > > > > civilized community, you're going to have > to abide by a whole > > > > lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them > back then and it was easier, > > > > but things have changed." > > > > > > > > The Sixteen to One is among about a > half-dozen underground hard-rock > > > > mines still operating in California, and > the only > > > > commercial gold mine left in a county > that owes its origins to mining. > > > > > > > > While low gold prices, industry > consolidation and cumbersome > regulations > > > > have driven off most small subsurface > operators, > > > > Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and > the regulators. He and his men > > > > dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in > 27 miles of dank > > > > tunnels braced by wooden beams erected > nearly 100 years ago. These > days, > > > > profits are so meager that neither Miller > nor his > > > > skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > > > > > > > > State and federal regulators have cited > the mine more than 180 times > > > > over the last decade for faulty escape > routes, broken > > > > ladders, improper storage of explosives. > State water quality officials > > > > have fined the company for allowing > arsenic-laden water to > > > > flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting > the downstream drinking > supply. > > > > > > > > The manslaughter charges stem from the > death two years ago of miner > Mark > > > > Fussell, 36. > > > > > > > > Fussell was operating a locomotive deep > in the mine and had put it in > > > > reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head > was crushed > > > > between the locomotive's battery and an > ore chute that investigators > say > > > > protruded lower than others in the mine > and was > > > > unmarked. They also allege that the gears > malfunctioned and that the > > > > locomotive had been placed on the track > backward. > > > > > > > > The mine had been cited previously for > not marking a similar ore chute > > > > on a different level of the mine. That > opened the door for > > > > prosecutors to file felony charges > against Miller and Farrell. > > > > > > > > An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > > > > > > > > The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained > the decision to charge Miller > and > > > > Farrell and not just the company that > controls the mine. > > > > > > > > "The bottom line is corporations don't > make decisions, individuals > do," > > > > said Filter, who heads the California > District Attorneys > > > > Assn.'s worker safety project. "We > prosecute only the most egregious > > > > type of conduct," Filter added. > > > > > > > > Miller called the case "meritless," > saying it was Fussell's job to > mark > > > > hazards, like the one that killed him, > and blamed the miner's > > > > death on his own negligence. > > > > > > > > "Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > killer," Miller said. > > > > > > > > Neither Miller nor Farrell was present > during the incident. Moreover, > a > > > > state inspector had stood beneath the > same chute a week > > > > earlier and failed to notice a hazard, > Miller said. > > > > > > > > If he can be charged with killing his > worker under those > circumstances, > > > > said Miller, the industry is headed for > trouble. > > > > > > > > "There are people who feel that > California will be a better place > > > > without the ability to produce gold, and > they'll use any means to > > > > try to accomplish that," Miller said. > > > > > > > > Here in Sierra County, part-time > prospectors still dredge the rivers > for > > > > gold and work small, private claims. A > sign in the office of > > > > the county's weekly newspaper declares: > "We Support the Mother Lode > > > > Miners and the American Mining Industry > and They > > > > Support Us." > > > > > > > > Many remain convinced that a spike in > gold prices is all that's needed > > > > to revive the Mother Lode. > > > > > > > > "All you need is one more 9/11 scare to > send gold sky high," said > David > > > > O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who > works an > > > > underground claim on evenings and > weekends and heads the nearly > defunct > > > > Northern Mining Council. > > > > > > > > "My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to > be honest, you've got to have > > > > money and you've got to have patience.' > You put those > > > > ingredients together and we'll have gold > mining in this area again." > > > > > > > > Miller's supporters point out that > Fussell's death was the mine's > first > > > > fatality in more than 50 years. This year > alone, 56 people > > > > have died in mines around the country. > > > > > > > > "No one believed that anything but an > accident had happened," said > Bill > > > > Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic > as it might be, > > > > it's the nature of the business. You can > be a computer assistant > manager > > > > if you don't want your job to kill you." > > > > > > > > "Mike is a lot of things. Willfully > negligent is not one of them," > said > > > > Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > owner of the weekly > > > > Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > > > > > > > > The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > granite bedrock of the > central > > > > Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident > who named it > > > > in honor of populist William Jennings > Bryan's presidential campaign > > > > proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > ratio. > > > > > > > > Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > concentrations of high-grade > > > > ore, the mine prospered on and off until > 1965 when it was > > > > effectively closed, then mined only > sporadically by locals who leased > > > > the claims. > > > > > > > > Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > when he first visited the > mine > > > > in 1974. It was the same year that the > federal government > > > > allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy > ounce, to trade on the open > > > > market. The price soared, exceeding $800 > an ounce by 1980. > > > > > > > > He seized control of the company that > owned the Sixteen to One in 1983 > > > > after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > becoming its chief > > > > executive. At first, Miller leased the > mining claims to a series of > > > > exploration companies. When they pulled > out in 1991, Miller took > > > > over day-to-day operations. > > > > > > > > A series of multimillion-dollar finds > followed. The company rolled > much > > > > of its profits back into mine > improvements, Miller said, and > > > > began acquiring other mining properties. > But in recent years, the > > > > Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > > > > > > > > The company's prized collection of gold > specimens and carved > gold-laced > > > > quartz is up for sale. Last month, its > stock was > > > > delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange > for consistently trading > below > > > > a dollar. > > > > > > > > Compounding Miller's financial troubles > has been a growing pile of > > > > safety and environmental citations. > > > > > > > > Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > arsenic discharge, and > > > > ultimately reduce it to required drinking > water standards. After > > > > he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > plan or pay more than > $27,000 > > > > in overdue fines and permit fees, his > case was referred to > > > > the state attorney general's office, a > deputy attorney general said. > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > > > > > > > > Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew > of six, makes its daily trek > a > > > > half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka > Creek Canyon. > > > > There, the men use metal detectors and > dynamite in their quest for > > > > another payload. > > > > > > > > The men check pumps that suck water from > the mine's lower levels, > > > > exposing what they hope will be another > rich vein. > > > > > > > > By midafternoon, they emerge squinting > from the portal, the day's take > > > > of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one > dirty tube sock. > > > > > > > > They split the proceeds from the communal > haul. Recently, that has > come > > > > to little more than $3 an hour per man. > > > > > > > > Today, even people sympathetic to > Miller's cause suggest it may be > time > > > > to let go of a way of life that is more > trouble than it is > > > > worth. > > > > > > > > "In the underground small operation that > was popular from 1850 right > up > > > > until five or six years ago, there are > just a few > > > > hardheaded people left," said Donald > Dickey, who shut down his own > gold > > > > mine here earlier this year. > > > > > > > > "There will always be people beating > their heads against rock. That's > > > > gone on since biblical times. But it > won't be a viable > > > > industry as such." > > > > > > > > The county's economy once depended almost > exclusively on mining and > > > > logging, but it has been decades since > mining was a > > > > significant economic force here. Logging > too, is a shadow of its > former > > > > self, with the last sawmill recently > shuttered. Government > > > > now employs more than 40% in this county > of 3,100. > > > > > > > > "As a resource-based economy, it's > completely dead," said Sierra > County > > > > Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > historian. "Mike > > > > is just an artifact." > > > > > > > > Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows > him to wrest a commodity from > > > > the earth and create wealth, he said. The > experience is a > > > > "dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. > Today, he defends what's left > of > > > > the dream with Old West bluster and an > ivory-handled .38 > > > > pistol tucked in his waistband. > > > > > > > > He says he's been targeted as part of a > "rural cleansing" campaign > > > > against miners, loggers, ranchers and > other old-fashioned > > > > country folk. > > > > > > > > "The Sixteen to One miners face > extinction, and they represent the > last > > > > of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > "It's a symbol to a > > > > lot of people, and I don't want it to > die." > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME > parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: > http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 11:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rick Trapp) Date: Tue Nov 12 11:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: <3DD0D91C.C8D83024@cox.net> Message-ID: <3DD15BA2.3000508@azgs.az.gov> Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his head crushed, not lynched. I guess you're right, though. Why should the authorities get all worked up just because some poor miner got killed in a mine that had been repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's the business that counts, not the little guys.... People who work in mines should expect to get killed because it happens all the time. Makes sense to me. Like those miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they wearing scuba outfits? Why should the mine owner (who told them where to dig) be held responsible for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? Everybody knows those miners make tons of money. They should take responsibility for their own safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to mention hospital costs when they're injured and body recovery and burial costs when they are killed. All that MSHA is doing is interefering in free enterprise. Businesses should be free to place their employees in any kind of conditions they want, including hazardous or deadly ones. That's the problem with this country today. Too many little guys thinking they have a right to good wages AND safe working conditions and too many government agencies trying to obstruct businesses by demanding fair wages and safe working conditions. I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or better yet, throw everybody in jail and then rent out the prisoners to use as unpaid slaves. T A Masters wrote: > Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had an incredibly large Gold > Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. At that time he told a story > about pending litigation against him for the death of a miner. It was > so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about it. I just received the > following. This looks like a lynching. Any ideas? > Teresa > > > >>Local news provided by: latimes.com >> >>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only Trouble Now >>By Lee Romney >> >>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister Miller's fight is the Mother >>Lode's last stand. >> >>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has yielded some of the >>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined today much as it >>was a century ago by mud-caked men with picks, drills and dynamite, it >>is a living link to California's Gold Rush era. >> >>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the gritty pageantry of the '49ers. >>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless time of needless >>injuries to people and the environment. >> >>Today, after the death of a miner, that way of life is on trial -- not >>just in the court of public opinion, but in the Sierra County >>Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager face manslaughter and other >>felony charges. >> >>The indictments of Miller, 60, and 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark >>only the third time that felony charges have been brought >>against individuals under a 2-year-old labor law for "willful violation >>of a safety standard" that results in death. >> >>The case has divided a county that still clings to its mining roots >>despite the industry's decline and a steady trickle of newcomers >>who don't rely on the region's traditional sources of income -- logging >>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for its fading way of >>life. >> >>These days, local businesses in the county seat of Downieville, about an >>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are more >>dependent on mountain bikers and other recreational tourists. >>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno drive up property >>values. The shift is aligning the county more closely with a modern >>California -- one defined by tough environmental and >>workplace protections. >> >>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento >>County Superior Court judge and former Sixteen to One >>board member. "If you're going to extract minerals in the regulated >>civilized community, you're going to have to abide by a whole >>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back then and it was easier, >>but things have changed." >> >>The Sixteen to One is among about a half-dozen underground hard-rock >>mines still operating in California, and the only >>commercial gold mine left in a county that owes its origins to mining. >> >>While low gold prices, industry consolidation and cumbersome regulations >>have driven off most small subsurface operators, >>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the regulators. He and his men >>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 miles of dank >>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly 100 years ago. These days, >>profits are so meager that neither Miller nor his >>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. >> >>State and federal regulators have cited the mine more than 180 times >>over the last decade for faulty escape routes, broken >>ladders, improper storage of explosives. State water quality officials >>have fined the company for allowing arsenic-laden water to >>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the downstream drinking supply. >> >>The manslaughter charges stem from the death two years ago of miner Mark >>Fussell, 36. >> >>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in the mine and had put it in >>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was crushed >>between the locomotive's battery and an ore chute that investigators say >>protruded lower than others in the mine and was >>unmarked. They also allege that the gears malfunctioned and that the >>locomotive had been placed on the track backward. >> >>The mine had been cited previously for not marking a similar ore chute >>on a different level of the mine. That opened the door for >>prosecutors to file felony charges against Miller and Farrell. >> >>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. >> >>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the decision to charge Miller and >>Farrell and not just the company that controls the mine. >> >>"The bottom line is corporations don't make decisions, individuals do," >>said Filter, who heads the California District Attorneys >>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute only the most egregious >>type of conduct," Filter added. >> >>Miller called the case "meritless," saying it was Fussell's job to mark >>hazards, like the one that killed him, and blamed the miner's >>death on his own negligence. >> >>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool killer," Miller said. >> >>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during the incident. Moreover, a >>state inspector had stood beneath the same chute a week >>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller said. >> >>If he can be charged with killing his worker under those circumstances, >>said Miller, the industry is headed for trouble. >> >>"There are people who feel that California will be a better place >>without the ability to produce gold, and they'll use any means to >>try to accomplish that," Miller said. >> >>Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors still dredge the rivers for >>gold and work small, private claims. A sign in the office of >>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We Support the Mother Lode >>Miners and the American Mining Industry and They >>Support Us." >> >>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold prices is all that's needed >>to revive the Mother Lode. >> >>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send gold sky high," said David >>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works an >>underground claim on evenings and weekends and heads the nearly defunct >>Northern Mining Council. >> >>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be honest, you've got to have >>money and you've got to have patience.' You put those >>ingredients together and we'll have gold mining in this area again." >> >>Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's death was the mine's first >>fatality in more than 50 years. This year alone, 56 people >>have died in mines around the country. >> >>"No one believed that anything but an accident had happened," said Bill >>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it might be, >>it's the nature of the business. You can be a computer assistant manager >>if you don't want your job to kill you." >> >>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent is not one of them," said >>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied owner of the weekly >>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. >> >>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the granite bedrock of the central >>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who named it >>in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's presidential campaign >>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price ratio. >> >>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like concentrations of high-grade >>ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 when it was >>effectively closed, then mined only sporadically by locals who leased >>the claims. >> >>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara when he first visited the mine >>in 1974. It was the same year that the federal government >>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, to trade on the open >>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an ounce by 1980. >> >>He seized control of the company that owned the Sixteen to One in 1983 >>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, becoming its chief >>executive. At first, Miller leased the mining claims to a series of >>exploration companies. When they pulled out in 1991, Miller took >>over day-to-day operations. >> >>A series of multimillion-dollar finds followed. The company rolled much >>of its profits back into mine improvements, Miller said, and >>began acquiring other mining properties. But in recent years, the >>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. >> >>The company's prized collection of gold specimens and carved gold-laced >>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock was >>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for consistently trading below >>a dollar. >> >>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has been a growing pile of >>safety and environmental citations. >> >>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an arsenic discharge, and >>ultimately reduce it to required drinking water standards. After >>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction plan or pay more than $27,000 >>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case was referred to >>the state attorney general's office, a deputy attorney general said. >> >>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. >> >>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of six, makes its daily trek a >>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek Canyon. >>There, the men use metal detectors and dynamite in their quest for >>another payload. >> >>The men check pumps that suck water from the mine's lower levels, >>exposing what they hope will be another rich vein. >> >>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from the portal, the day's take >>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty tube sock. >> >>They split the proceeds from the communal haul. Recently, that has come >>to little more than $3 an hour per man. >> >>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's cause suggest it may be time >>to let go of a way of life that is more trouble than it is >>worth. >> >>"In the underground small operation that was popular from 1850 right up >>until five or six years ago, there are just a few >>hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, who shut down his own gold >>mine here earlier this year. >> >>"There will always be people beating their heads against rock. That's >>gone on since biblical times. But it won't be a viable >>industry as such." >> >>The county's economy once depended almost exclusively on mining and >>logging, but it has been decades since mining was a >>significant economic force here. Logging too, is a shadow of its former >>self, with the last sawmill recently shuttered. Government >>now employs more than 40% in this county of 3,100. >> >>"As a resource-based economy, it's completely dead," said Sierra County >>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local historian. "Mike >>is just an artifact." >> >>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him to wrest a commodity from >>the earth and create wealth, he said. The experience is a >>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, he defends what's left of >>the dream with Old West bluster and an ivory-handled .38 >>pistol tucked in his waistband. >> >>He says he's been targeted as part of a "rural cleansing" campaign >>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other old-fashioned >>country folk. >> >>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, and they represent the last >>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. "It's a symbol to a >>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > -- Rick Trapp Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 12:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Tue Nov 12 12:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes Message-ID: Rick, I don't think that fits the picture. From the article, it states that they worked for an average sometimes of $3 an hour, below any choice of any other minimum wage job. So, there seems to be a choice taken already by the miners to forego the protection of the government in favor of something they would prefer to do than to protect their own welfare (else they'd have a minimum wage job). That's my interpretation. But, the defendant says that the person died of his own negligence. Where is your sense of innocent till proven guilty? Jimmy On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:50:58 -0700 Rick Trapp wrote: > Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his > head crushed, not lynched. > > I guess you're right, though. Why should the > authorities get all worked > up just because some poor miner got killed in a > mine that had been > repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's > the business that counts, > not the little guys.... People who work in > mines should expect to get > killed because it happens all the time. Makes > sense to me. Like those > miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they > wearing scuba outfits? Why > should the mine owner (who told them where to > dig) be held responsible > for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? > Everybody knows those > miners make tons of money. They should take > responsibility for their own > safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to > mention hospital costs > when they're injured and body recovery and > burial costs when they are > killed. All that MSHA is doing is interefering > in free enterprise. > Businesses should be free to place their > employees in any kind of > conditions they want, including hazardous or > deadly ones. > > That's the problem with this country today. Too > many little guys > thinking they have a right to good wages AND > safe working conditions and > too many government agencies trying to obstruct > businesses by demanding > fair wages and safe working conditions. > > I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or better > yet, throw everybody in > jail and then rent out the prisoners to use as > unpaid slaves. > > > > > T A Masters wrote: > > > Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had > an incredibly large Gold > > Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. At > that time he told a story > > about pending litigation against him for the > death of a miner. It was > > so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about > it. I just received the > > following. This looks like a lynching. Any > ideas? > > Teresa > > > > > > > >>Local news provided by: latimes.com > >> > >>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only > Trouble Now > >>By Lee Romney > >> > >>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > Miller's fight is the Mother > >>Lode's last stand. > >> > >>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has > yielded some of the > >>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined > today much as it > >>was a century ago by mud-caked men with > picks, drills and dynamite, it > >>is a living link to California's Gold Rush > era. > >> > >>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > >>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless > time of needless > >>injuries to people and the environment. > >> > >>Today, after the death of a miner, that way > of life is on trial -- not > >>just in the court of public opinion, but in > the Sierra County > >>Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager > face manslaughter and other > >>felony charges. > >> > >>The indictments of Miller, 60, and > 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > >>only the third time that felony charges have > been brought > >>against individuals under a 2-year-old labor > law for "willful violation > >>of a safety standard" that results in death. > >> > >>The case has divided a county that still > clings to its mining roots > >>despite the industry's decline and a steady > trickle of newcomers > >>who don't rely on the region's traditional > sources of income -- logging > >>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for > its fading way of > >>life. > >> > >>These days, local businesses in the county > seat of Downieville, about an > >>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are > more > >>dependent on mountain bikers and other > recreational tourists. > >>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > drive up property > >>values. The shift is aligning the county more > closely with a modern > >>California -- one defined by tough > environmental and > >>workplace protections. > >> > >>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said > Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > >>County Superior Court judge and former > Sixteen to One > >>board member. "If you're going to extract > minerals in the regulated > >>civilized community, you're going to have to > abide by a whole > >>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back > then and it was easier, > >>but things have changed." > >> > >>The Sixteen to One is among about a > half-dozen underground hard-rock > >>mines still operating in California, and the > only > >>commercial gold mine left in a county that > owes its origins to mining. > >> > >>While low gold prices, industry consolidation > and cumbersome regulations > >>have driven off most small subsurface > operators, > >>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the > regulators. He and his men > >>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 > miles of dank > >>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly > 100 years ago. These days, > >>profits are so meager that neither Miller nor > his > >>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > >> > >>State and federal regulators have cited the > mine more than 180 times > >>over the last decade for faulty escape > routes, broken > >>ladders, improper storage of explosives. > State water quality officials > >>have fined the company for allowing > arsenic-laden water to > >>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the > downstream drinking supply. > >> > >>The manslaughter charges stem from the death > two years ago of miner Mark > >>Fussell, 36. > >> > >>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in > the mine and had put it in > >>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was > crushed > >>between the locomotive's battery and an ore > chute that investigators say > >>protruded lower than others in the mine and > was > >>unmarked. They also allege that the gears > malfunctioned and that the > >>locomotive had been placed on the track > backward. > >> > >>The mine had been cited previously for not > marking a similar ore chute > >>on a different level of the mine. That opened > the door for > >>prosecutors to file felony charges against > Miller and Farrell. > >> > >>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > >> > >>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the > decision to charge Miller and > >>Farrell and not just the company that > controls the mine. > >> > >>"The bottom line is corporations don't make > decisions, individuals do," > >>said Filter, who heads the California > District Attorneys > >>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute > only the most egregious > >>type of conduct," Filter added. > >> > >>Miller called the case "meritless," saying it > was Fussell's job to mark > >>hazards, like the one that killed him, and > blamed the miner's > >>death on his own negligence. > >> > >>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > killer," Miller said. > >> > >>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during > the incident. Moreover, a > >>state inspector had stood beneath the same > chute a week > >>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller > said. > >> > >>If he can be charged with killing his worker > under those circumstances, > >>said Miller, the industry is headed for > trouble. > >> > >>"There are people who feel that California > will be a better place > >>without the ability to produce gold, and > they'll use any means to > >>try to accomplish that," Miller said. > >> > >>Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors > still dredge the rivers for > >>gold and work small, private claims. A sign > in the office of > >>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We > Support the Mother Lode > >>Miners and the American Mining Industry and > They > >>Support Us." > >> > >>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold > prices is all that's needed > >>to revive the Mother Lode. > >> > >>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send > gold sky high," said David > >>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works > an > >>underground claim on evenings and weekends > and heads the nearly defunct > >>Northern Mining Council. > >> > >>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be > honest, you've got to have > >>money and you've got to have patience.' You > put those > >>ingredients together and we'll have gold > mining in this area again." > >> > >>Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's > death was the mine's first > >>fatality in more than 50 years. This year > alone, 56 people > >>have died in mines around the country. > >> > >>"No one believed that anything but an > accident had happened," said Bill > >>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it > might be, > >>it's the nature of the business. You can be a > computer assistant manager > >>if you don't want your job to kill you." > >> > >>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent > is not one of them," said > >>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > owner of the weekly > >>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > >> > >>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > granite bedrock of the central > >>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who > named it > >>in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's > presidential campaign > >>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > ratio. > >> > >>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > concentrations of high-grade > >>ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 > when it was > >>effectively closed, then mined only > sporadically by locals who leased > >>the claims. > >> > >>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > when he first visited the mine > >>in 1974. It was the same year that the > federal government > >>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, > to trade on the open > >>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an > ounce by 1980. > >> > >>He seized control of the company that owned > the Sixteen to One in 1983 > >>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > becoming its chief > >>executive. At first, Miller leased the mining > claims to a series of > >>exploration companies. When they pulled out > in 1991, Miller took > >>over day-to-day operations. > >> > >>A series of multimillion-dollar finds > followed. The company rolled much > >>of its profits back into mine improvements, > Miller said, and > >>began acquiring other mining properties. But > in recent years, the > >>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > >> > >>The company's prized collection of gold > specimens and carved gold-laced > >>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock > was > >>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for > consistently trading below > >>a dollar. > >> > >>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has > been a growing pile of > >>safety and environmental citations. > >> > >>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > arsenic discharge, and > >>ultimately reduce it to required drinking > water standards. After > >>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > plan or pay more than $27,000 > >>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case > was referred to > >>the state attorney general's office, a deputy > attorney general said. > >> > >>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > >> > >>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of > six, makes its daily trek a > >>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek > Canyon. > >>There, the men use metal detectors and > dynamite in their quest for > >>another payload. > >> > >>The men check pumps that suck water from the > mine's lower levels, > >>exposing what they hope will be another rich > vein. > >> > >>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from > the portal, the day's take > >>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty > tube sock. > >> > >>They split the proceeds from the communal > haul. Recently, that has come > >>to little more than $3 an hour per man. > >> > >>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's > cause suggest it may be time > >>to let go of a way of life that is more > trouble than it is > >>worth. > >> > >>"In the underground small operation that was > popular from 1850 right up > >>until five or six years ago, there are just a > few > >>hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, > who shut down his own gold > >>mine here earlier this year. > >> > >>"There will always be people beating their > heads against rock. That's > >>gone on since biblical times. But it won't be > a viable > >>industry as such." > >> > >>The county's economy once depended almost > exclusively on mining and > >>logging, but it has been decades since mining > was a > >>significant economic force here. Logging too, > is a shadow of its former > >>self, with the last sawmill recently > shuttered. Government > >>now employs more than 40% in this county of > 3,100. > >> > >>"As a resource-based economy, it's completely > dead," said Sierra County > >>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > historian. "Mike > >>is just an artifact." > >> > >>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him > to wrest a commodity from > >>the earth and create wealth, he said. The > experience is a > >>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, > he defends what's left of > >>the dream with Old West bluster and an > ivory-handled .38 > >>pistol tucked in his waistband. > >> > >>He says he's been targeted as part of a > "rural cleansing" campaign > >>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other > old-fashioned > >>country folk. > >> > >>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, > and they represent the last > >>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > "It's a symbol to a > >>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > >> > >> > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts > --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > -- > Rick Trapp > Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 12:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Tue Nov 12 12:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: Message-ID: <001b01c28a87$3ec45ef0$69ca94d1@remains> true enough....but I think the stupidity aspect of my argument is valid. the laws are there to protect...........can you imagine what people would say (in North America) if children were allowed to work in mines they way they were back in the 1800's, and before? that practice was stopped for a number of reason...safety and exploitation among them. perhaps if nickel and tin and other metals were worth the cost of complete mechanised mining, there wouldn't be an issue with people doing dangerous mining jobs? unfortunately, gold isn't worth $1500 an ounce........... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chengi Kuo" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes > Michael, you're mixing up two different aspects of law. > > People suing each other is civil law. This case is criminal law. > > Jimmy > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:30:18 -0700 Michael Schmidt > wrote: > > > maybe you should think about the reasons WHY > > laws like this have become the > > norm? > > > > if people weren't so litigation happy, and > > ready to sue for every broken > > fingernail caused by their own stupidity, then > > perhaps laws wouldn't be as > > "extreme" as they are. > > > > the result is that there are laws in place to > > protect the ignorant as well > > as the sensible, and we as a society are > > responsible for these laws. > > > > I'm willing to bet that if one of your > > relatives were killed in a mine > > because of safety rules that were not followed > > (apparently on several > > occasions) you would be the first one looking > > for someone to be held > > accountable. > > > > this is not a lynching. this is accountability > > for not obeying the law. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richard Dale" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes > > > > > > > Not a lynching - just a very small-scale > > example of why mining is now > > almost > > > all overseas (and declining there!). My only > > surprise is that there are > > not > > > a string of federal charges as well. > > Richard > > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > I posted a ,message about it. I just > > received the > > > > following. This looks like a lynching. Any > > ideas? > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > Local news provided by: latimes.com > > > > > > > > > > Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes > > Only Trouble Now > > > > > By Lee Romney > > > > > > > > > > To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > > Miller's fight is the Mother > > > > > Lode's last stand. > > > > > > > > > > Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, > > has yielded some of the > > > > > state's densest gold concentrations. > > Mined today much as it > > > > > was a century ago by mud-caked men with > > picks, drills and dynamite, it > > > > > is a living link to California's Gold > > Rush era. > > > > > > > > > > For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > > gritty pageantry of the > > '49ers. > > > > > To others, it is a throwback to a > > reckless time of needless > > > > > injuries to people and the environment. > > > > > > > > > > Today, after the death of a miner, that > > way of life is on trial -- not > > > > > just in the court of public opinion, but > > in the Sierra County > > > > > Courthouse where Miller and his mine > > manager face manslaughter and > > other > > > > > felony charges. > > > > > > > > > > The indictments of Miller, 60, and > > 32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > > > > > only the third time that felony charges > > have been brought > > > > > against individuals under a 2-year-old > > labor law for "willful > > violation > > > > > of a safety standard" that results in > > death. > > > > > > > > > > The case has divided a county that still > > clings to its mining roots > > > > > despite the industry's decline and a > > steady trickle of newcomers > > > > > who don't rely on the region's > > traditional sources of income -- > > logging > > > > > and mining -- or profess much nostalgia > > for its fading way of > > > > > life. > > > > > > > > > > These days, local businesses in the > > county seat of Downieville, about > > an > > > > > hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, > > are more > > > > > dependent on mountain bikers and other > > recreational tourists. > > > > > Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > > drive up property > > > > > values. The shift is aligning the county > > more closely with a modern > > > > > California -- one defined by tough > > environmental and > > > > > workplace protections. > > > > > > > > > > "Miller was born 70 years too late," said > > Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > > > > > County Superior Court judge and former > > Sixteen to One > > > > > board member. "If you're going to extract > > minerals in the regulated > > > > > civilized community, you're going to have > > to abide by a whole > > > > > lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them > > back then and it was easier, > > > > > but things have changed." > > > > > > > > > > The Sixteen to One is among about a > > half-dozen underground hard-rock > > > > > mines still operating in California, and > > the only > > > > > commercial gold mine left in a county > > that owes its origins to mining. > > > > > > > > > > While low gold prices, industry > > consolidation and cumbersome > > regulations > > > > > have driven off most small subsurface > > operators, > > > > > Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and > > the regulators. He and his men > > > > > dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in > > 27 miles of dank > > > > > tunnels braced by wooden beams erected > > nearly 100 years ago. These > > days, > > > > > profits are so meager that neither Miller > > nor his > > > > > skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > > > > > > > > > > State and federal regulators have cited > > the mine more than 180 times > > > > > over the last decade for faulty escape > > routes, broken > > > > > ladders, improper storage of explosives. > > State water quality officials > > > > > have fined the company for allowing > > arsenic-laden water to > > > > > flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting > > the downstream drinking > > supply. > > > > > > > > > > The manslaughter charges stem from the > > death two years ago of miner > > Mark > > > > > Fussell, 36. > > > > > > > > > > Fussell was operating a locomotive deep > > in the mine and had put it in > > > > > reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head > > was crushed > > > > > between the locomotive's battery and an > > ore chute that investigators > > say > > > > > protruded lower than others in the mine > > and was > > > > > unmarked. They also allege that the gears > > malfunctioned and that the > > > > > locomotive had been placed on the track > > backward. > > > > > > > > > > The mine had been cited previously for > > not marking a similar ore chute > > > > > on a different level of the mine. That > > opened the door for > > > > > prosecutors to file felony charges > > against Miller and Farrell. > > > > > > > > > > An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > > > > > > > > > > The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained > > the decision to charge Miller > > and > > > > > Farrell and not just the company that > > controls the mine. > > > > > > > > > > "The bottom line is corporations don't > > make decisions, individuals > > do," > > > > > said Filter, who heads the California > > District Attorneys > > > > > Assn.'s worker safety project. "We > > prosecute only the most egregious > > > > > type of conduct," Filter added. > > > > > > > > > > Miller called the case "meritless," > > saying it was Fussell's job to > > mark > > > > > hazards, like the one that killed him, > > and blamed the miner's > > > > > death on his own negligence. > > > > > > > > > > "Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > > killer," Miller said. > > > > > > > > > > Neither Miller nor Farrell was present > > during the incident. Moreover, > > a > > > > > state inspector had stood beneath the > > same chute a week > > > > > earlier and failed to notice a hazard, > > Miller said. > > > > > > > > > > If he can be charged with killing his > > worker under those > > circumstances, > > > > > said Miller, the industry is headed for > > trouble. > > > > > > > > > > "There are people who feel that > > California will be a better place > > > > > without the ability to produce gold, and > > they'll use any means to > > > > > try to accomplish that," Miller said. > > > > > > > > > > Here in Sierra County, part-time > > prospectors still dredge the rivers > > for > > > > > gold and work small, private claims. A > > sign in the office of > > > > > the county's weekly newspaper declares: > > "We Support the Mother Lode > > > > > Miners and the American Mining Industry > > and They > > > > > Support Us." > > > > > > > > > > Many remain convinced that a spike in > > gold prices is all that's needed > > > > > to revive the Mother Lode. > > > > > > > > > > "All you need is one more 9/11 scare to > > send gold sky high," said > > David > > > > > O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who > > works an > > > > > underground claim on evenings and > > weekends and heads the nearly > > defunct > > > > > Northern Mining Council. > > > > > > > > > > "My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to > > be honest, you've got to have > > > > > money and you've got to have patience.' > > You put those > > > > > ingredients together and we'll have gold > > mining in this area again." > > > > > > > > > > Miller's supporters point out that > > Fussell's death was the mine's > > first > > > > > fatality in more than 50 years. This year > > alone, 56 people > > > > > have died in mines around the country. > > > > > > > > > > "No one believed that anything but an > > accident had happened," said > > Bill > > > > > Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic > > as it might be, > > > > > it's the nature of the business. You can > > be a computer assistant > > manager > > > > > if you don't want your job to kill you." > > > > > > > > > > "Mike is a lot of things. Willfully > > negligent is not one of them," > > said > > > > > Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > > owner of the weekly > > > > > Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > > > > > > > > > > The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > > granite bedrock of the > > central > > > > > Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident > > who named it > > > > > in honor of populist William Jennings > > Bryan's presidential campaign > > > > > proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > > ratio. > > > > > > > > > > Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > > concentrations of high-grade > > > > > ore, the mine prospered on and off until > > 1965 when it was > > > > > effectively closed, then mined only > > sporadically by locals who leased > > > > > the claims. > > > > > > > > > > Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > > when he first visited the > > mine > > > > > in 1974. It was the same year that the > > federal government > > > > > allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy > > ounce, to trade on the open > > > > > market. The price soared, exceeding $800 > > an ounce by 1980. > > > > > > > > > > He seized control of the company that > > owned the Sixteen to One in 1983 > > > > > after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > > becoming its chief > > > > > executive. At first, Miller leased the > > mining claims to a series of > > > > > exploration companies. When they pulled > > out in 1991, Miller took > > > > > over day-to-day operations. > > > > > > > > > > A series of multimillion-dollar finds > > followed. The company rolled > > much > > > > > of its profits back into mine > > improvements, Miller said, and > > > > > began acquiring other mining properties. > > But in recent years, the > > > > > Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > > > > > > > > > > The company's prized collection of gold > > specimens and carved > > gold-laced > > > > > quartz is up for sale. Last month, its > > stock was > > > > > delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange > > for consistently trading > > below > > > > > a dollar. > > > > > > > > > > Compounding Miller's financial troubles > > has been a growing pile of > > > > > safety and environmental citations. > > > > > > > > > > Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > > arsenic discharge, and > > > > > ultimately reduce it to required drinking > > water standards. After > > > > > he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > > plan or pay more than > > $27,000 > > > > > in overdue fines and permit fees, his > > case was referred to > > > > > the state attorney general's office, a > > deputy attorney general said. > > > > > > > > > > Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > > > > > > > > > > Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew > > of six, makes its daily trek > > a > > > > > half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka > > Creek Canyon. > > > > > There, the men use metal detectors and > > dynamite in their quest for > > > > > another payload. > > > > > > > > > > The men check pumps that suck water from > > the mine's lower levels, > > > > > exposing what they hope will be another > > rich vein. > > > > > > > > > > By midafternoon, they emerge squinting > > from the portal, the day's take > > > > > of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one > > dirty tube sock. > > > > > > > > > > They split the proceeds from the communal > > haul. Recently, that has > > come > > > > > to little more than $3 an hour per man. > > > > > > > > > > Today, even people sympathetic to > > Miller's cause suggest it may be > > time > > > > > to let go of a way of life that is more > > trouble than it is > > > > > worth. > > > > > > > > > > "In the underground small operation that > > was popular from 1850 right > > up > > > > > until five or six years ago, there are > > just a few > > > > > hardheaded people left," said Donald > > Dickey, who shut down his own > > gold > > > > > mine here earlier this year. > > > > > > > > > > "There will always be people beating > > their heads against rock. That's > > > > > gone on since biblical times. But it > > won't be a viable > > > > > industry as such." > > > > > > > > > > The county's economy once depended almost > > exclusively on mining and > > > > > logging, but it has been decades since > > mining was a > > > > > significant economic force here. Logging > > too, is a shadow of its > > former > > > > > self, with the last sawmill recently > > shuttered. Government > > > > > now employs more than 40% in this county > > of 3,100. > > > > > > > > > > "As a resource-based economy, it's > > completely dead," said Sierra > > County > > > > > Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > > historian. "Mike > > > > > is just an artifact." > > > > > > > > > > Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows > > him to wrest a commodity from > > > > > the earth and create wealth, he said. The > > experience is a > > > > > "dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. > > Today, he defends what's left > > of > > > > > the dream with Old West bluster and an > > ivory-handled .38 > > > > > pistol tucked in his waistband. > > > > > > > > > > He says he's been targeted as part of a > > "rural cleansing" campaign > > > > > against miners, loggers, ranchers and > > other old-fashioned > > > > > country folk. > > > > > > > > > > "The Sixteen to One miners face > > extinction, and they represent the > > last > > > > > of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > > "It's a symbol to a > > > > > lot of people, and I don't want it to > > die." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME > > parts --- > > > > multipart/alternative > > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > > text/html > > > > --- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: > > http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 12:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (LAWRENCE L. DEE) Date: Tue Nov 12 12:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: <001b01c28a87$3ec45ef0$69ca94d1@remains> Message-ID: <001b01c28a8b$f9a62e20$b1a0bb3f@n7y7z7> Typically hardrock mines operated by small companies are underfunded and so they try to get away with whatever they can. They obviously cannot afford safety engineers and thus continually skirt the regs until they are eventually forced to close. Miners working in these small mines generally know the risks but that does not excuse the operator from removing hazards. At $100+/foot underground mining is an expensive proposition and inherently dangerous. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 12:58:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rick Trapp) Date: Tue Nov 12 12:58:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: Message-ID: <3DD16B24.7040705@azgs.az.gov> Jimmy, oh yeah, you're absolutely right. As long as there is somebody out there who is stupid enough or desperate enough to work in an environment where he or she goes and gets themselves killed, businesses should absolutely not be held responsible. Here's a good concrete example: mines should really be looking for people with below-average intelligence. That way, if they get hurt or killed then it obviously must be their fault and the business can carry on. Or better yet, maybe they should be hiring sightless people to work down there because everybody knows the lighting is bad anyway and that way if they stumble and fall into an unmarked shaft, the mine owner can argue that it wouldn't have done any good to mark the shaft anyway. The main thing in the brave new world is that every man IS an island; never send to know for whom the bell tolls as long as it it tolls for anybody else.... Rick Chengi Kuo wrote: > Rick, I don't think that fits the picture. From the article, it states that > they worked for an average sometimes of $3 an hour, below any choice of any > other minimum wage job. So, there seems to be a choice taken already by the > miners to forego the protection of the government in favor of something they > would prefer to do than to protect their own welfare (else they'd have a > minimum wage job). > > That's my interpretation. > > But, the defendant says that the person died of his own negligence. Where is > your sense of innocent till proven guilty? > > Jimmy > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:50:58 -0700 Rick Trapp wrote: > > >>Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his >>head crushed, not lynched. >> >>I guess you're right, though. Why should the >>authorities get all worked >>up just because some poor miner got killed in a >>mine that had been >>repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's >>the business that counts, >>not the little guys.... People who work in >>mines should expect to get >>killed because it happens all the time. Makes >>sense to me. Like those >>miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they >>wearing scuba outfits? Why >>should the mine owner (who told them where to >>dig) be held responsible >>for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? >>Everybody knows those >>miners make tons of money. They should take >>responsibility for their own >>safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to >>mention hospital costs >>when they're injured and body recovery and >>burial costs when they are >>killed. All that MSHA is doing is interefering >>in free enterprise. >>Businesses should be free to place their >>employees in any kind of >>conditions they want, including hazardous or >>deadly ones. >> >>That's the problem with this country today. Too >>many little guys >>thinking they have a right to good wages AND >>safe working conditions and >>too many government agencies trying to obstruct >>businesses by demanding >>fair wages and safe working conditions. >> >>I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or better >>yet, throw everybody in >>jail and then rent out the prisoners to use as >>unpaid slaves. >> >> >> >> >>T A Masters wrote: >> >> >>>Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had >>> >>an incredibly large Gold >> >>>Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. At >>> >>that time he told a story >> >>>about pending litigation against him for the >>> >>death of a miner. It was >> >>>so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about >>> >>it. I just received the >> >>>following. This looks like a lynching. Any >>> >>ideas? >> >>>Teresa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Local news provided by: latimes.com >>>> >>>>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only >>>> >>Trouble Now >> >>>>By Lee Romney >>>> >>>>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister >>>> >>Miller's fight is the Mother >> >>>>Lode's last stand. >>>> >>>>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has >>>> >>yielded some of the >> >>>>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined >>>> >>today much as it >> >>>>was a century ago by mud-caked men with >>>> >>picks, drills and dynamite, it >> >>>>is a living link to California's Gold Rush >>>> >>era. >> >>>>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the >>>> >>gritty pageantry of the '49ers. >> >>>>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless >>>> >>time of needless >> >>>>injuries to people and the environment. >>>> >>>>Today, after the death of a miner, that way >>>> >>of life is on trial -- not >> >>>>just in the court of public opinion, but in >>>> >>the Sierra County >> >>>>Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager >>>> >>face manslaughter and other >> >>>>felony charges. >>>> >>>>The indictments of Miller, 60, and >>>> >>32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark >> >>>>only the third time that felony charges have >>>> >>been brought >> >>>>against individuals under a 2-year-old labor >>>> >>law for "willful violation >> >>>>of a safety standard" that results in death. >>>> >>>>The case has divided a county that still >>>> >>clings to its mining roots >> >>>>despite the industry's decline and a steady >>>> >>trickle of newcomers >> >>>>who don't rely on the region's traditional >>>> >>sources of income -- logging >> >>>>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for >>>> >>its fading way of >> >>>>life. >>>> >>>>These days, local businesses in the county >>>> >>seat of Downieville, about an >> >>>>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are >>>> >>more >> >>>>dependent on mountain bikers and other >>>> >>recreational tourists. >> >>>>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno >>>> >>drive up property >> >>>>values. The shift is aligning the county more >>>> >>closely with a modern >> >>>>California -- one defined by tough >>>> >>environmental and >> >>>>workplace protections. >>>> >>>>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said >>>> >>Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento >> >>>>County Superior Court judge and former >>>> >>Sixteen to One >> >>>>board member. "If you're going to extract >>>> >>minerals in the regulated >> >>>>civilized community, you're going to have to >>>> >>abide by a whole >> >>>>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back >>>> >>then and it was easier, >> >>>>but things have changed." >>>> >>>>The Sixteen to One is among about a >>>> >>half-dozen underground hard-rock >> >>>>mines still operating in California, and the >>>> >>only >> >>>>commercial gold mine left in a county that >>>> >>owes its origins to mining. >> >>>>While low gold prices, industry consolidation >>>> >>and cumbersome regulations >> >>>>have driven off most small subsurface >>>> >>operators, >> >>>>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the >>>> >>regulators. He and his men >> >>>>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 >>>> >>miles of dank >> >>>>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly >>>> >>100 years ago. These days, >> >>>>profits are so meager that neither Miller nor >>>> >>his >> >>>>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. >>>> >>>>State and federal regulators have cited the >>>> >>mine more than 180 times >> >>>>over the last decade for faulty escape >>>> >>routes, broken >> >>>>ladders, improper storage of explosives. >>>> >>State water quality officials >> >>>>have fined the company for allowing >>>> >>arsenic-laden water to >> >>>>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the >>>> >>downstream drinking supply. >> >>>>The manslaughter charges stem from the death >>>> >>two years ago of miner Mark >> >>>>Fussell, 36. >>>> >>>>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in >>>> >>the mine and had put it in >> >>>>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was >>>> >>crushed >> >>>>between the locomotive's battery and an ore >>>> >>chute that investigators say >> >>>>protruded lower than others in the mine and >>>> >>was >> >>>>unmarked. They also allege that the gears >>>> >>malfunctioned and that the >> >>>>locomotive had been placed on the track >>>> >>backward. >> >>>>The mine had been cited previously for not >>>> >>marking a similar ore chute >> >>>>on a different level of the mine. That opened >>>> >>the door for >> >>>>prosecutors to file felony charges against >>>> >>Miller and Farrell. >> >>>>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. >>>> >>>>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the >>>> >>decision to charge Miller and >> >>>>Farrell and not just the company that >>>> >>controls the mine. >> >>>>"The bottom line is corporations don't make >>>> >>decisions, individuals do," >> >>>>said Filter, who heads the California >>>> >>District Attorneys >> >>>>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute >>>> >>only the most egregious >> >>>>type of conduct," Filter added. >>>> >>>>Miller called the case "meritless," saying it >>>> >>was Fussell's job to mark >> >>>>hazards, like the one that killed him, and >>>> >>blamed the miner's >> >>>>death on his own negligence. >>>> >>>>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool >>>> >>killer," Miller said. >> >>>>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during >>>> >>the incident. Moreover, a >> >>>>state inspector had stood beneath the same >>>> >>chute a week >> >>>>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller >>>> >>said. >> >>>>If he can be charged with killing his worker >>>> >>under those circumstances, >> >>>>said Miller, the industry is headed for >>>> >>trouble. >> >>>>"There are people who feel that California >>>> >>will be a better place >> >>>>without the ability to produce gold, and >>>> >>they'll use any means to >> >>>>try to accomplish that," Miller said. >>>> >>>>Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors >>>> >>still dredge the rivers for >> >>>>gold and work small, private claims. A sign >>>> >>in the office of >> >>>>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We >>>> >>Support the Mother Lode >> >>>>Miners and the American Mining Industry and >>>> >>They >> >>>>Support Us." >>>> >>>>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold >>>> >>prices is all that's needed >> >>>>to revive the Mother Lode. >>>> >>>>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send >>>> >>gold sky high," said David >> >>>>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works >>>> >>an >> >>>>underground claim on evenings and weekends >>>> >>and heads the nearly defunct >> >>>>Northern Mining Council. >>>> >>>>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be >>>> >>honest, you've got to have >> >>>>money and you've got to have patience.' You >>>> >>put those >> >>>>ingredients together and we'll have gold >>>> >>mining in this area again." >> >>>>Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's >>>> >>death was the mine's first >> >>>>fatality in more than 50 years. This year >>>> >>alone, 56 people >> >>>>have died in mines around the country. >>>> >>>>"No one believed that anything but an >>>> >>accident had happened," said Bill >> >>>>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it >>>> >>might be, >> >>>>it's the nature of the business. You can be a >>>> >>computer assistant manager >> >>>>if you don't want your job to kill you." >>>> >>>>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent >>>> >>is not one of them," said >> >>>>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied >>>> >>owner of the weekly >> >>>>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. >>>> >>>>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the >>>> >>granite bedrock of the central >> >>>>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who >>>> >>named it >> >>>>in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's >>>> >>presidential campaign >> >>>>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price >>>> >>ratio. >> >>>>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like >>>> >>concentrations of high-grade >> >>>>ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 >>>> >>when it was >> >>>>effectively closed, then mined only >>>> >>sporadically by locals who leased >> >>>>the claims. >>>> >>>>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara >>>> >>when he first visited the mine >> >>>>in 1974. It was the same year that the >>>> >>federal government >> >>>>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, >>>> >>to trade on the open >> >>>>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an >>>> >>ounce by 1980. >> >>>>He seized control of the company that owned >>>> >>the Sixteen to One in 1983 >> >>>>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, >>>> >>becoming its chief >> >>>>executive. At first, Miller leased the mining >>>> >>claims to a series of >> >>>>exploration companies. When they pulled out >>>> >>in 1991, Miller took >> >>>>over day-to-day operations. >>>> >>>>A series of multimillion-dollar finds >>>> >>followed. The company rolled much >> >>>>of its profits back into mine improvements, >>>> >>Miller said, and >> >>>>began acquiring other mining properties. But >>>> >>in recent years, the >> >>>>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. >>>> >>>>The company's prized collection of gold >>>> >>specimens and carved gold-laced >> >>>>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock >>>> >>was >> >>>>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for >>>> >>consistently trading below >> >>>>a dollar. >>>> >>>>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has >>>> >>been a growing pile of >> >>>>safety and environmental citations. >>>> >>>>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an >>>> >>arsenic discharge, and >> >>>>ultimately reduce it to required drinking >>>> >>water standards. After >> >>>>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction >>>> >>plan or pay more than $27,000 >> >>>>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case >>>> >>was referred to >> >>>>the state attorney general's office, a deputy >>>> >>attorney general said. >> >>>>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. >>>> >>>>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of >>>> >>six, makes its daily trek a >> >>>>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek >>>> >>Canyon. >> >>>>There, the men use metal detectors and >>>> >>dynamite in their quest for >> >>>>another payload. >>>> >>>>The men check pumps that suck water from the >>>> >>mine's lower levels, >> >>>>exposing what they hope will be another rich >>>> >>vein. >> >>>>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from >>>> >>the portal, the day's take >> >>>>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty >>>> >>tube sock. >> >>>>They split the proceeds from the communal >>>> >>haul. Recently, that has come >> >>>>to little more than $3 an hour per man. >>>> >>>>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's >>>> >>cause suggest it may be time >> >>>>to let go of a way of life that is more >>>> >>trouble than it is >> >>>>worth. >>>> >>>>"In the underground small operation that was >>>> >>popular from 1850 right up >> >>>>until five or six years ago, there are just a >>>> >>few >> >>>>hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, >>>> >>who shut down his own gold >> >>>>mine here earlier this year. >>>> >>>>"There will always be people beating their >>>> >>heads against rock. That's >> >>>>gone on since biblical times. But it won't be >>>> >>a viable >> >>>>industry as such." >>>> >>>>The county's economy once depended almost >>>> >>exclusively on mining and >> >>>>logging, but it has been decades since mining >>>> >>was a >> >>>>significant economic force here. Logging too, >>>> >>is a shadow of its former >> >>>>self, with the last sawmill recently >>>> >>shuttered. Government >> >>>>now employs more than 40% in this county of >>>> >>3,100. >> >>>>"As a resource-based economy, it's completely >>>> >>dead," said Sierra County >> >>>>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local >>>> >>historian. "Mike >> >>>>is just an artifact." >>>> >>>>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him >>>> >>to wrest a commodity from >> >>>>the earth and create wealth, he said. The >>>> >>experience is a >> >>>>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, >>>> >>he defends what's left of >> >>>>the dream with Old West bluster and an >>>> >>ivory-handled .38 >> >>>>pistol tucked in his waistband. >>>> >>>>He says he's been targeted as part of a >>>> >>"rural cleansing" campaign >> >>>>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other >>>> >>old-fashioned >> >>>>country folk. >>>> >>>>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, >>>> >>and they represent the last >> >>>>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. >>>> >>"It's a symbol to a >> >>>>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts >>> >>--- >> >>>multipart/alternative >>> text/plain (text body -- kept) >>> text/html >>>--- >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>Subscription Services: >>> >>> >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >>> >> >>-- >>Rick Trapp >>Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey >>rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > -- Rick Trapp Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 13:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Tue Nov 12 13:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes In-Reply-To: <3DD16B24.7040705@azgs.az.gov> Message-ID: As I see it, here are the fundamental issues. * Mining is a federally regulated business in the United States. If you are operating as a corporation, there are certain standards by which (L&I, mine safety, taxes, etc) that you MUST follow. There is no choice. I'm sorry if you hearken back to the ye-olden days of hard rock mining, where more died than found nuggets. But the law is the law. If you don't like it, spend the money to get it changed or take the law to court to get it declared unconstitutional. If YOU, as the mine owner, don't take the responsibility for employee safety, you are not only in violation of mining laws, but also state and federal laws. Doesn't matter if it makes it hard for you to do business. Tough shit. Those are the rules. They are there because generations before us fought to get those protections enacted. Now, if it's a HOBBY mine, not for profit, and not incorporated, you should be able to do what you damn well please, excepting environmental effects (below). * Environmental regulations apply to everyone. Just because it's too difficult for you to contain your arsenic runoff doesn't mean you aren't responsible for the consequences. The guy's whole story is that, "oh, it's so hard to make a living with all these burdensome regulations, so I'm not going to follow them." B.S. You don't like the regs, you either fight to change them or you live with them. You don't disobey them. That's the price you pay for living in a 'civilized' society like modern-day America. Deal. Now, I'm not anti-mine, or pro-big business. But there are rules. And if nobody plays by the rules, the system falls apart. And that's an even less palatable situation, IMHO. Aaron > Jimmy, > > oh yeah, you're absolutely right. As long as there is somebody out there > who is stupid enough or desperate enough to work in an environment where > he or she goes and gets themselves killed, businesses should absolutely > not be held responsible. > > Here's a good concrete example: mines should really be looking for > people with below-average intelligence. That way, if they get hurt or > killed then it obviously must be their fault and the business can carry > on. Or better yet, maybe they should be hiring sightless people to work > down there because everybody knows the lighting is bad anyway and that > way if they stumble and fall into an unmarked shaft, the mine owner can > argue that it wouldn't have done any good to mark the shaft anyway. > > The main thing in the brave new world is that every man IS an island; > never send to know for whom the bell tolls as long as it it tolls for > anybody else.... > > Rick > > Chengi Kuo wrote: > > > Rick, I don't think that fits the picture. From the article, it states that > > they worked for an average sometimes of $3 an hour, below any choice of any > > other minimum wage job. So, there seems to be a choice taken already by the > > miners to forego the protection of the government in favor of something they > > would prefer to do than to protect their own welfare (else they'd have a > > minimum wage job). > > > > That's my interpretation. > > > > But, the defendant says that the person died of his own negligence. Where is > > your sense of innocent till proven guilty? > > > > Jimmy > > > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:50:58 -0700 Rick Trapp wrote: > > > > > >>Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his > >>head crushed, not lynched. > >> > >>I guess you're right, though. Why should the > >>authorities get all worked > >>up just because some poor miner got killed in a > >>mine that had been > >>repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's > >>the business that counts, > >>not the little guys.... People who work in > >>mines should expect to get > >>killed because it happens all the time. Makes > >>sense to me. Like those > >>miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they > >>wearing scuba outfits? Why > >>should the mine owner (who told them where to > >>dig) be held responsible > >>for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? > >>Everybody knows those > >>miners make tons of money. They should take > >>responsibility for their own > >>safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to > >>mention hospital costs > >>when they're injured and body recovery and > >>burial costs when they are > >>killed. All that MSHA is doing is interefering > >>in free enterprise. > >>Businesses should be free to place their > >>employees in any kind of > >>conditions they want, including hazardous or > >>deadly ones. > >> > >>That's the problem with this country today. Too > >>many little guys > >>thinking they have a right to good wages AND > >>safe working conditions and > >>too many government agencies trying to obstruct > >>businesses by demanding > >>fair wages and safe working conditions. > >> > >>I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or better > >>yet, throw everybody in > >>jail and then rent out the prisoners to use as > >>unpaid slaves. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>T A Masters wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had > >>> > >>an incredibly large Gold > >> > >>>Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. At > >>> > >>that time he told a story > >> > >>>about pending litigation against him for the > >>> > >>death of a miner. It was > >> > >>>so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about > >>> > >>it. I just received the > >> > >>>following. This looks like a lynching. Any > >>> > >>ideas? > >> > >>>Teresa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Local news provided by: latimes.com > >>>> > >>>>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only > >>>> > >>Trouble Now > >> > >>>>By Lee Romney > >>>> > >>>>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > >>>> > >>Miller's fight is the Mother > >> > >>>>Lode's last stand. > >>>> > >>>>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has > >>>> > >>yielded some of the > >> > >>>>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined > >>>> > >>today much as it > >> > >>>>was a century ago by mud-caked men with > >>>> > >>picks, drills and dynamite, it > >> > >>>>is a living link to California's Gold Rush > >>>> > >>era. > >> > >>>>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > >>>> > >>gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > >> > >>>>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless > >>>> > >>time of needless > >> > >>>>injuries to people and the environment. > >>>> > >>>>Today, after the death of a miner, that way > >>>> > >>of life is on trial -- not > >> > >>>>just in the court of public opinion, but in > >>>> > >>the Sierra County > >> > >>>>Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager > >>>> > >>face manslaughter and other > >> > >>>>felony charges. > >>>> > >>>>The indictments of Miller, 60, and > >>>> > >>32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > >> > >>>>only the third time that felony charges have > >>>> > >>been brought > >> > >>>>against individuals under a 2-year-old labor > >>>> > >>law for "willful violation > >> > >>>>of a safety standard" that results in death. > >>>> > >>>>The case has divided a county that still > >>>> > >>clings to its mining roots > >> > >>>>despite the industry's decline and a steady > >>>> > >>trickle of newcomers > >> > >>>>who don't rely on the region's traditional > >>>> > >>sources of income -- logging > >> > >>>>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for > >>>> > >>its fading way of > >> > >>>>life. > >>>> > >>>>These days, local businesses in the county > >>>> > >>seat of Downieville, about an > >> > >>>>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are > >>>> > >>more > >> > >>>>dependent on mountain bikers and other > >>>> > >>recreational tourists. > >> > >>>>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > >>>> > >>drive up property > >> > >>>>values. The shift is aligning the county more > >>>> > >>closely with a modern > >> > >>>>California -- one defined by tough > >>>> > >>environmental and > >> > >>>>workplace protections. > >>>> > >>>>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said > >>>> > >>Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > >> > >>>>County Superior Court judge and former > >>>> > >>Sixteen to One > >> > >>>>board member. "If you're going to extract > >>>> > >>minerals in the regulated > >> > >>>>civilized community, you're going to have to > >>>> > >>abide by a whole > >> > >>>>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back > >>>> > >>then and it was easier, > >> > >>>>but things have changed." > >>>> > >>>>The Sixteen to One is among about a > >>>> > >>half-dozen underground hard-rock > >> > >>>>mines still operating in California, and the > >>>> > >>only > >> > >>>>commercial gold mine left in a county that > >>>> > >>owes its origins to mining. > >> > >>>>While low gold prices, industry consolidation > >>>> > >>and cumbersome regulations > >> > >>>>have driven off most small subsurface > >>>> > >>operators, > >> > >>>>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the > >>>> > >>regulators. He and his men > >> > >>>>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 > >>>> > >>miles of dank > >> > >>>>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly > >>>> > >>100 years ago. These days, > >> > >>>>profits are so meager that neither Miller nor > >>>> > >>his > >> > >>>>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > >>>> > >>>>State and federal regulators have cited the > >>>> > >>mine more than 180 times > >> > >>>>over the last decade for faulty escape > >>>> > >>routes, broken > >> > >>>>ladders, improper storage of explosives. > >>>> > >>State water quality officials > >> > >>>>have fined the company for allowing > >>>> > >>arsenic-laden water to > >> > >>>>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the > >>>> > >>downstream drinking supply. > >> > >>>>The manslaughter charges stem from the death > >>>> > >>two years ago of miner Mark > >> > >>>>Fussell, 36. > >>>> > >>>>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in > >>>> > >>the mine and had put it in > >> > >>>>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was > >>>> > >>crushed > >> > >>>>between the locomotive's battery and an ore > >>>> > >>chute that investigators say > >> > >>>>protruded lower than others in the mine and > >>>> > >>was > >> > >>>>unmarked. They also allege that the gears > >>>> > >>malfunctioned and that the > >> > >>>>locomotive had been placed on the track > >>>> > >>backward. > >> > >>>>The mine had been cited previously for not > >>>> > >>marking a similar ore chute > >> > >>>>on a different level of the mine. That opened > >>>> > >>the door for > >> > >>>>prosecutors to file felony charges against > >>>> > >>Miller and Farrell. > >> > >>>>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > >>>> > >>>>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the > >>>> > >>decision to charge Miller and > >> > >>>>Farrell and not just the company that > >>>> > >>controls the mine. > >> > >>>>"The bottom line is corporations don't make > >>>> > >>decisions, individuals do," > >> > >>>>said Filter, who heads the California > >>>> > >>District Attorneys > >> > >>>>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute > >>>> > >>only the most egregious > >> > >>>>type of conduct," Filter added. > >>>> > >>>>Miller called the case "meritless," saying it > >>>> > >>was Fussell's job to mark > >> > >>>>hazards, like the one that killed him, and > >>>> > >>blamed the miner's > >> > >>>>death on his own negligence. > >>>> > >>>>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > >>>> > >>killer," Miller said. > >> > >>>>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during > >>>> > >>the incident. Moreover, a > >> > >>>>state inspector had stood beneath the same > >>>> > >>chute a week > >> > >>>>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller > >>>> > >>said. > >> > >>>>If he can be charged with killing his worker > >>>> > >>under those circumstances, > >> > >>>>said Miller, the industry is headed for > >>>> > >>trouble. > >> > >>>>"There are people who feel that California > >>>> > >>will be a better place > >> > >>>>without the ability to produce gold, and > >>>> > >>they'll use any means to > >> > >>>>try to accomplish that," Miller said. > >>>> > >>>>Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors > >>>> > >>still dredge the rivers for > >> > >>>>gold and work small, private claims. A sign > >>>> > >>in the office of > >> > >>>>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We > >>>> > >>Support the Mother Lode > >> > >>>>Miners and the American Mining Industry and > >>>> > >>They > >> > >>>>Support Us." > >>>> > >>>>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold > >>>> > >>prices is all that's needed > >> > >>>>to revive the Mother Lode. > >>>> > >>>>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send > >>>> > >>gold sky high," said David > >> > >>>>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works > >>>> > >>an > >> > >>>>underground claim on evenings and weekends > >>>> > >>and heads the nearly defunct > >> > >>>>Northern Mining Council. > >>>> > >>>>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be > >>>> > >>honest, you've got to have > >> > >>>>money and you've got to have patience.' You > >>>> > >>put those > >> > >>>>ingredients together and we'll have gold > >>>> > >>mining in this area again." > >> > >>>>Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's > >>>> > >>death was the mine's first > >> > >>>>fatality in more than 50 years. This year > >>>> > >>alone, 56 people > >> > >>>>have died in mines around the country. > >>>> > >>>>"No one believed that anything but an > >>>> > >>accident had happened," said Bill > >> > >>>>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it > >>>> > >>might be, > >> > >>>>it's the nature of the business. You can be a > >>>> > >>computer assistant manager > >> > >>>>if you don't want your job to kill you." > >>>> > >>>>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent > >>>> > >>is not one of them," said > >> > >>>>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > >>>> > >>owner of the weekly > >> > >>>>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > >>>> > >>>>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > >>>> > >>granite bedrock of the central > >> > >>>>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who > >>>> > >>named it > >> > >>>>in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's > >>>> > >>presidential campaign > >> > >>>>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > >>>> > >>ratio. > >> > >>>>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > >>>> > >>concentrations of high-grade > >> > >>>>ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 > >>>> > >>when it was > >> > >>>>effectively closed, then mined only > >>>> > >>sporadically by locals who leased > >> > >>>>the claims. > >>>> > >>>>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > >>>> > >>when he first visited the mine > >> > >>>>in 1974. It was the same year that the > >>>> > >>federal government > >> > >>>>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, > >>>> > >>to trade on the open > >> > >>>>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an > >>>> > >>ounce by 1980. > >> > >>>>He seized control of the company that owned > >>>> > >>the Sixteen to One in 1983 > >> > >>>>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > >>>> > >>becoming its chief > >> > >>>>executive. At first, Miller leased the mining > >>>> > >>claims to a series of > >> > >>>>exploration companies. When they pulled out > >>>> > >>in 1991, Miller took > >> > >>>>over day-to-day operations. > >>>> > >>>>A series of multimillion-dollar finds > >>>> > >>followed. The company rolled much > >> > >>>>of its profits back into mine improvements, > >>>> > >>Miller said, and > >> > >>>>began acquiring other mining properties. But > >>>> > >>in recent years, the > >> > >>>>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > >>>> > >>>>The company's prized collection of gold > >>>> > >>specimens and carved gold-laced > >> > >>>>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock > >>>> > >>was > >> > >>>>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for > >>>> > >>consistently trading below > >> > >>>>a dollar. > >>>> > >>>>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has > >>>> > >>been a growing pile of > >> > >>>>safety and environmental citations. > >>>> > >>>>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > >>>> > >>arsenic discharge, and > >> > >>>>ultimately reduce it to required drinking > >>>> > >>water standards. After > >> > >>>>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > >>>> > >>plan or pay more than $27,000 > >> > >>>>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case > >>>> > >>was referred to > >> > >>>>the state attorney general's office, a deputy > >>>> > >>attorney general said. > >> > >>>>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > >>>> > >>>>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of > >>>> > >>six, makes its daily trek a > >> > >>>>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek > >>>> > >>Canyon. > >> > >>>>There, the men use metal detectors and > >>>> > >>dynamite in their quest for > >> > >>>>another payload. > >>>> > >>>>The men check pumps that suck water from the > >>>> > >>mine's lower levels, > >> > >>>>exposing what they hope will be another rich > >>>> > >>vein. > >> > >>>>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from > >>>> > >>the portal, the day's take > >> > >>>>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty > >>>> > >>tube sock. > >> > >>>>They split the proceeds from the communal > >>>> > >>haul. Recently, that has come > >> > >>>>to little more than $3 an hour per man. > >>>> > >>>>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's > >>>> > >>cause suggest it may be time > >> > >>>>to let go of a way of life that is more > >>>> > >>trouble than it is > >> > >>>>worth. > >>>> > >>>>"In the underground small operation that was > >>>> > >>popular from 1850 right up > >> > >>>>until five or six years ago, there are just a > >>>> > >>few > >> > >>>>hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, > >>>> > >>who shut down his own gold > >> > >>>>mine here earlier this year. > >>>> > >>>>"There will always be people beating their > >>>> > >>heads against rock. That's > >> > >>>>gone on since biblical times. But it won't be > >>>> > >>a viable > >> > >>>>industry as such." > >>>> > >>>>The county's economy once depended almost > >>>> > >>exclusively on mining and > >> > >>>>logging, but it has been decades since mining > >>>> > >>was a > >> > >>>>significant economic force here. Logging too, > >>>> > >>is a shadow of its former > >> > >>>>self, with the last sawmill recently > >>>> > >>shuttered. Government > >> > >>>>now employs more than 40% in this county of > >>>> > >>3,100. > >> > >>>>"As a resource-based economy, it's completely > >>>> > >>dead," said Sierra County > >> > >>>>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > >>>> > >>historian. "Mike > >> > >>>>is just an artifact." > >>>> > >>>>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him > >>>> > >>to wrest a commodity from > >> > >>>>the earth and create wealth, he said. The > >>>> > >>experience is a > >> > >>>>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, > >>>> > >>he defends what's left of > >> > >>>>the dream with Old West bluster and an > >>>> > >>ivory-handled .38 > >> > >>>>pistol tucked in his waistband. > >>>> > >>>>He says he's been targeted as part of a > >>>> > >>"rural cleansing" campaign > >> > >>>>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other > >>>> > >>old-fashioned > >> > >>>>country folk. > >>>> > >>>>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, > >>>> > >>and they represent the last > >> > >>>>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > >>>> > >>"It's a symbol to a > >> > >>>>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts > >>> > >>--- > >> > >>>multipart/alternative > >>> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >>> text/html > >>>--- > >>> > >>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >> > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>>Subscription Services: > >>> > >>> > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>Rick Trapp > >>Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > >>rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>Subscription Services: > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > -- afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request "Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..." From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 14:00:04 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Tue Nov 12 14:00:04 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes Message-ID: The statement of "his own negligence" relates to the story that it was his specific job to mark those hazzards. And I wish to leave it to the court to decide if that is a valid interpretation for the criminal aspect of this case. In my $3/hr argument, I am juxtapositioning it against the IRS distinction between hobby and business. This is something that strikes at our participants. For some of us, it is a hobby. For some it is a business. My argument is that by choosing to do it for below minimum wage, it should be interpreted that the people involved are doing it as a hobby. We should always abhor loss of life. But, I judge differently if the person chose to do what he was doing. So, in my mind, that miner chose a hobby, where he might make some money along the way. That to me is the same as someone getting hurt spelunking. Jimmy On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:57:08 -0700 Rick Trapp wrote: > Jimmy, > > oh yeah, you're absolutely right. As long as > there is somebody out there > who is stupid enough or desperate enough to > work in an environment where > he or she goes and gets themselves killed, > businesses should absolutely > not be held responsible. > > Here's a good concrete example: mines should > really be looking for > people with below-average intelligence. That > way, if they get hurt or > killed then it obviously must be their fault > and the business can carry > on. Or better yet, maybe they should be hiring > sightless people to work > down there because everybody knows the lighting > is bad anyway and that > way if they stumble and fall into an unmarked > shaft, the mine owner can > argue that it wouldn't have done any good to > mark the shaft anyway. > > The main thing in the brave new world is that > every man IS an island; > never send to know for whom the bell tolls as > long as it it tolls for > anybody else.... > > Rick > > Chengi Kuo wrote: > > > Rick, I don't think that fits the picture. > From the article, it states that > > they worked for an average sometimes of $3 an > hour, below any choice of any > > other minimum wage job. So, there seems to > be a choice taken already by the > > miners to forego the protection of the > government in favor of something they > > would prefer to do than to protect their own > welfare (else they'd have a > > minimum wage job). > > > > That's my interpretation. > > > > But, the defendant says that the person died > of his own negligence. Where is > > your sense of innocent till proven guilty? > > > > Jimmy > > > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:50:58 -0700 Rick Trapp > wrote: > > > > > >>Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his > >>head crushed, not lynched. > >> > >>I guess you're right, though. Why should the > >>authorities get all worked > >>up just because some poor miner got killed in > a > >>mine that had been > >>repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's > >>the business that counts, > >>not the little guys.... People who work in > >>mines should expect to get > >>killed because it happens all the time. Makes > >>sense to me. Like those > >>miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they > >>wearing scuba outfits? Why > >>should the mine owner (who told them where to > >>dig) be held responsible > >>for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? > >>Everybody knows those > >>miners make tons of money. They should take > >>responsibility for their own > >>safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to > >>mention hospital costs > >>when they're injured and body recovery and > >>burial costs when they are > >>killed. All that MSHA is doing is > interefering > >>in free enterprise. > >>Businesses should be free to place their > >>employees in any kind of > >>conditions they want, including hazardous or > >>deadly ones. > >> > >>That's the problem with this country today. > Too > >>many little guys > >>thinking they have a right to good wages AND > >>safe working conditions and > >>too many government agencies trying to > obstruct > >>businesses by demanding > >>fair wages and safe working conditions. > >> > >>I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or > better > >>yet, throw everybody in > >>jail and then rent out the prisoners to use > as > >>unpaid slaves. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>T A Masters wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had > >>> > >>an incredibly large Gold > >> > >>>Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. > At > >>> > >>that time he told a story > >> > >>>about pending litigation against him for the > >>> > >>death of a miner. It was > >> > >>>so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about > >>> > >>it. I just received the > >> > >>>following. This looks like a lynching. Any > >>> > >>ideas? > >> > >>>Teresa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Local news provided by: latimes.com > >>>> > >>>>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only > >>>> > >>Trouble Now > >> > >>>>By Lee Romney > >>>> > >>>>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > >>>> > >>Miller's fight is the Mother > >> > >>>>Lode's last stand. > >>>> > >>>>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, > has > >>>> > >>yielded some of the > >> > >>>>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined > >>>> > >>today much as it > >> > >>>>was a century ago by mud-caked men with > >>>> > >>picks, drills and dynamite, it > >> > >>>>is a living link to California's Gold Rush > >>>> > >>era. > >> > >>>>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > >>>> > >>gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > >> > >>>>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless > >>>> > >>time of needless > >> > >>>>injuries to people and the environment. > >>>> > >>>>Today, after the death of a miner, that way > >>>> > >>of life is on trial -- not > >> > >>>>just in the court of public opinion, but in > >>>> > >>the Sierra County > >> > >>>>Courthouse where Miller and his mine > manager > >>>> > >>face manslaughter and other > >> > >>>>felony charges. > >>>> > >>>>The indictments of Miller, 60, and > >>>> > >>32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > >> > >>>>only the third time that felony charges > have > >>>> > >>been brought > >> > >>>>against individuals under a 2-year-old > labor > >>>> > >>law for "willful violation > >> > >>>>of a safety standard" that results in > death. > >>>> > >>>>The case has divided a county that still > >>>> > >>clings to its mining roots > >> > >>>>despite the industry's decline and a steady > >>>> > >>trickle of newcomers > >> > >>>>who don't rely on the region's traditional > >>>> > >>sources of income -- logging > >> > >>>>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for > >>>> > >>its fading way of > >> > >>>>life. > >>>> > >>>>These days, local businesses in the county > >>>> > >>seat of Downieville, about an > >> > >>>>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, > are > >>>> > >>more > >> > >>>>dependent on mountain bikers and other > >>>> > >>recreational tourists. > >> > >>>>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > >>>> > >>drive up property > >> > >>>>values. The shift is aligning the county > more > >>>> > >>closely with a modern > >> > >>>>California -- one defined by tough > >>>> > >>environmental and > >> > >>>>workplace protections. > >>>> > >>>>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said > >>>> > >>Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > >> > >>>>County Superior Court judge and former > >>>> > >>Sixteen to One > >> > >>>>board member. "If you're going to extract > >>>> > >>minerals in the regulated > >> > >>>>civilized community, you're going to have > to > >>>> > >>abide by a whole > >> > >>>>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them > back > >>>> > >>then and it was easier, > >> > >>>>but things have changed." > >>>> > >>>>The Sixteen to One is among about a > >>>> > >>half-dozen underground hard-rock > >> > >>>>mines still operating in California, and > the > >>>> > >>only > >> > >>>>commercial gold mine left in a county that > >>>> > >>owes its origins to mining. > >> > >>>>While low gold prices, industry > consolidation > >>>> > >>and cumbersome regulations > >> > >>>>have driven off most small subsurface > >>>> > >>operators, > >> > >>>>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the > >>>> > >>regulators. He and his men > >> > >>>>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 > >>>> > >>miles of dank > >> > >>>>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected > nearly > >>>> > >>100 years ago. These days, > >> > >>>>profits are so meager that neither Miller > nor > >>>> > >>his > >> > >>>>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > >>>> > >>>>State and federal regulators have cited the > >>>> > >>mine more than 180 times > >> > >>>>over the last decade for faulty escape > >>>> > >>routes, broken > >> > >>>>ladders, improper storage of explosives. > >>>> > >>State water quality officials > >> > >>>>have fined the company for allowing > >>>> > >>arsenic-laden water to > >> > >>>>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting > the > >>>> > >>downstream drinking supply. > >> > >>>>The manslaughter charges stem from the > death > >>>> > >>two years ago of miner Mark > >> > >>>>Fussell, 36. > >>>> > >>>>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in > >>>> > >>the mine and had put it in > >> > >>>>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head > was > >>>> > >>crushed > >> > >>>>between the locomotive's battery and an ore > >>>> > >>chute that investigators say > >> > >>>>protruded lower than others in the mine and > >>>> > >>was > >> > >>>>unmarked. They also allege that the gears > >>>> > >>malfunctioned and that the > >> > >>>>locomotive had been placed on the track > >>>> > >>backward. > >> > >>>>The mine had been cited previously for not > >>>> > >>marking a similar ore chute > >> > >>>>on a different level of the mine. That > opened > >>>> > >>the door for > >> > >>>>prosecutors to file felony charges against > >>>> > >>Miller and Farrell. > >> > >>>>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > >>>> > >>>>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the > >>>> > >>decision to charge Miller and > >> > >>>>Farrell and not just the company that > >>>> > >>controls the mine. > >> > >>>>"The bottom line is corporations don't make > >>>> > >>decisions, individuals do," > >> > >>>>said Filter, who heads the California > >>>> > >>District Attorneys > >> > >>>>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We > prosecute > >>>> > >>only the most egregious > >> > >>>>type of conduct," Filter added. > >>>> > >>>>Miller called the case "meritless," saying > it > >>>> > >>was Fussell's job to mark > >> > >>>>hazards, like the one that killed him, and > >>>> > >>blamed the miner's > >> > >>>>death on his own negligence. > >>>> > >>>>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > >>>> > >>killer," Miller said. > >> > >>>>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present > during > >>>> > >>the incident. Moreover, a > >> > >>>>state inspector had stood beneath the same > >>>> > >>chute a week > >> > >>>>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, > Miller > >>>> > >>said. > >> > >>>>If he can be charged with killing his > worker > >>>> > >>under those circumstances, > >> > >>>>said Miller, the industry is headed for > >>>> > >>trouble. > >> > >>>>"There are people who feel that California > >>>> > >>will be a better place > >> > >>>>without the ability to produce gold, and > >>>> > >>they'll use any means to > >> > >>>>try to accomplish that," Miller said. > >>>> > >>>>Here in Sierra County, part-time > prospectors > >>>> > >>still dredge the rivers for > >> > >>>>gold and work small, private claims. A sign > >>>> > >>in the office of > >> > >>>>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We > >>>> > >>Support the Mother Lode > >> > >>>>Miners and the American Mining Industry and > >>>> > >>They > >> > >>>>Support Us." > >>>> > >>>>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold > >>>> > >>prices is all that's needed > >> > >>>>to revive the Mother Lode. > >>>> > >>>>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to > send > >>>> > >>gold sky high," said David > >> > >>>>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who > works > >>>> > >>an > >> > >>>>underground claim on evenings and weekends > >>>> > >>and heads the nearly defunct > >> > >>>>Northern Mining Council. > >>>> > >>>>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be > >>>> > >>honest, you've got to have > >> > >>>>money and you've got to have patience.' You > >>>> > >>put those > >> > >>>>ingredients together and we'll have gold > >>>> > >>mining in this area again." > >> > >>>>Miller's supporters point out that > Fussell's > >>>> > >>death was the mine's first > >> > >>>>fatality in more than 50 years. This year > >>>> > >>alone, 56 people > >> > >>>>have died in mines around the country. > >>>> > >>>>"No one believed that anything but an > >>>> > >>accident had happened," said Bill > >> > >>>>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as > it > >>>> > >>might be, > >> > >>>>it's the nature of the business. You can be > a > >>>> > >>computer assistant manager > >> > >>>>if you don't want your job to kill you." > >>>> > >>>>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully > negligent > >>>> > >>is not one of them," said > >> > >>>>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > >>>> > >>owner of the weekly > >> > >>>>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > >>>> > >>>>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > >>>> > >>granite bedrock of the central > >> > >>>>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident > who > >>>> > >>named it > >> > >>>>in honor of populist William Jennings > Bryan's > >>>> > >>presidential campaign > >> > >>>>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > >>>> > >>ratio. > >> > >>>>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > >>>> > >>concentrations of high-grade > >> > >>>>ore, the mine prospered on and off until > 1965 > >>>> > >>when it was > >> > >>>>effectively closed, then mined only > >>>> > >>sporadically by locals who leased > >> > >>>>the claims. > >>>> > >>>>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > >>>> > >>when he first visited the mine > >> > >>>>in 1974. It was the same year that the > >>>> > >>federal government > >> > >>>>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy > ounce, > >>>> > >>to trade on the open > >> > >>>>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an > >>>> > >>ounce by 1980. > >> > >>>>He seized control of the company that owned > >>>> > >>the Sixteen to One in 1983 > >> > >>>>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > >>>> > >>becoming its chief > >> > >>>>executive. At first, Miller leased the > mining > >>>> > >>claims to a series of > >> > >>>>exploration companies. When they pulled out > >>>> > >>in 1991, Miller took > >> > >>>>over day-to-day operations. > >>>> > >>>>A series of multimillion-dollar finds > >>>> > >>followed. The company rolled much > >> > >>>>of its profits back into mine improvements, > >>>> > >>Miller said, and > >> > >>>>began acquiring other mining properties. > But > >>>> > >>in recent years, the > >> > >>>>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > >>>> > >>>>The company's prized collection of gold > >>>> > >>specimens and carved gold-laced > >> > >>>>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its > stock > >>>> > >>was > >> > >>>>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange > for > >>>> > >>consistently trading below > >> > >>>>a dollar. > >>>> > >>>>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has > >>>> > >>been a growing pile of > >> > >>>>safety and environmental citations. > >>>> > >>>>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > >>>> > >>arsenic discharge, and > >> > >>>>ultimately reduce it to required drinking > >>>> > >>water standards. After > >> > >>>>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > >>>> > >>plan or pay more than $27,000 > >> > >>>>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case > >>>> > >>was referred to > >> > >>>>the state attorney general's office, a > deputy > >>>> > >>attorney general said. > >> > >>>>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > >>>> > >>>>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew > of > >>>> > >>six, makes its daily trek a > >> > >>>>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka > Creek > >>>> > >>Canyon. > >> > >>>>There, the men use metal detectors and > >>>> > >>dynamite in their quest for > >> > >>>>another payload. > >>>> > >>>>The men check pumps that suck water from > the > >>>> > >>mine's lower levels, > >> > >>>>exposing what they hope will be another > rich > >>>> > >>vein. > >> > >>>>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from > >>>> > >>the portal, the day's take > >> > >>>>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one > dirty > >>>> > >>tube sock. > >> > >>>>They split the proceeds from the communal > >>>> > >>haul. Recently, that has come > >> > >>>>to little more than $3 an hour per man. > >>>> > >>>>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's > >>>> > >>cause suggest it may be time > >> > >>>>to let go of a way of life that is more > >>>> > >>trouble than it is > >> > >>>>worth. > >>>> > >>>>"In the underground small operation that > was > >>>> > >>popular from 1850 right up > >> > >>>>until five or six years ago, there are just > a > >>>> > >>few > >> > >>>>hardheaded people left," said Donald > Dickey, > >>>> > >>who shut down his own gold > >> > >>>>mine here earlier this year. > >>>> > >>>>"There will always be people beating their > >>>> > >>heads against rock. That's > >> > >>>>gone on since biblical times. But it won't > be > >>>> > >>a viable > >> > >>>>industry as such." > >>>> > >>>>The county's economy once depended almost > >>>> > >>exclusively on mining and > >> > >>>>logging, but it has been decades since > mining > >>>> > >>was a > >> > >>>>significant economic force here. Logging > too, > >>>> > >>is a shadow of its former > >> > >>>>self, with the last sawmill recently > >>>> > >>shuttered. Government > >> > >>>>now employs more than 40% in this county of > >>>> > >>3,100. > >> > >>>>"As a resource-based economy, it's > completely > >>>> > >>dead," said Sierra County > >> > >>>>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > >>>> > >>historian. "Mike > >> > >>>>is just an artifact." > >>>> > >>>>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him > >>>> > >>to wrest a commodity from > >> > >>>>the earth and create wealth, he said. The > >>>> > >>experience is a > >> > >>>>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. > Today, > >>>> > >>he defends what's left of > >> > >>>>the dream with Old West bluster and an > >>>> > >>ivory-handled .38 > >> > >>>>pistol tucked in his waistband. > >>>> > >>>>He says he's been targeted as part of a > >>>> > >>"rural cleansing" campaign > >> > >>>>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other > >>>> > >>old-fashioned > >> > >>>>country folk. > >>>> > >>>>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, > >>>> > >>and they represent the last > >> > >>>>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > >>>> > >>"It's a symbol to a > >> > >>>>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts > >>> > >>--- > >> > >>>multipart/alternative > >>> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >>> text/html > >>>--- > >>> > >>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >> > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>>Subscription Services: > >>> > >>> > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>Rick Trapp > >>Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > >>rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>Subscription Services: > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > -- > Rick Trapp > Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 15:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ronald Werner) Date: Tue Nov 12 15:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodeve References: <001201c289d2$96701320$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Message-ID: <001f01c28a9f$20a73f60$2bb39fc3@RW> Hi! I was there a couple of years ago, and visited only Mas d'Alary, because my friends who live in France (they are Dutch too) told me there was no point visiting any of the other mines you mention. The French used a vacuumcleaner to remove even the last tiny piece of radioactive material. So, have NO expectations regarding the radioactive stuff. But then again, Mas d'Alary offers a nice suite of microminerals: dickite, dolomite, calcite, pyrite, markasite, chalcopyrite, tetrahedrite and several others, nicely crystallized stuff. The dickite is the finest I have ever seen. As far as access is concerned, I cannot guarantee you ANYTHING at all. I have been told there is security, and they can be a bore, but we hadn't any problems that time. Then again, we were together with a (authentic) French collecter, the not long ago deceased Alain Caubel, expert on the uranium-minerals from that area. We visited him at his home, which could at it's best be described as a nuclear dumpsite: his entire house was full with boxes with radioactive minerals! Best of all was the piece of 1-2 kg. pure uranium (the 238 variety, not dangerously radioactive, he said) he once managed to obtain from a processing plant. If you like, you could also try to contact Mr. Albert Schrander & Mrs. Marianne Hettinga, formerly Dutch, but they escaped in time. Now they are having a small business in the Cevennes, selling minerals and especially high quality micromounts. They might still have some of the radioactive minerals from those mines in stock. They once had many of the real rarities, like the rabejacite etc. Their addres is: schrahett@wanadoo.fr Or snail mail: Albert & Marianne Schrander-Hettinga Villa Les Lys Rue de rossignol F - 30120 Bréau France They would probably welcome mail from anyone on the list who is interested in high quality micromounts. Good luck! Ronald Werner Postboks 2 4733 Evje Norway PS Anyone on the list remembering me, and wondering why I haven't been active at all the past year or so?! That's because I didn't have a telephone connection, and for practical reasons couldn't get one either. I moved yesterday, and now I DO have a connection! I won't have much time to enjoy it (work, work..), but I might at least try to help answering a few questions every now and then. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 15:02:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 15:02:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Gold Message-ID: <22.31d9719f.2b02e251@aol.com> In a message dated 11/12/2002 3:10:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes: > Unfortunately, gold isn't worth $1500 an ounce........... Actually gold is worth a lot more! As specimens, gold is worth more than bullion cost. A few weeks ago at Sotheby's, they auctioned off several gold specimens. Here are some of the prices: - Gold in Quartz from California (4x3", 715 grams including quartz matrix): $19,120 - Crystallized Gold from Nevada County California (3.25x1.75", 80 grams): $32,265 - Crystallized Gold from Eldorado County California (3x2.5", 124 grams): $35,850 - Gold nugget, no location given (2.75x1.25", 311 grams): $47,800 John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 16:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 16:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: In a message dated 11/12/2002 3:10:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes: > Unfortunately, gold isn't worth $1500 an ounce........... Actually gold is worth a lot more! As specimens, gold is worth more than bullion cost. A few weeks ago at Sotheby's, they auctioned off several gold specimens. Here are some of the prices: - Gold in Quartz from California (4x3", 715 grams including quartz matrix): $19,120 - Crystallized Gold from Nevada County California (3.25x1.75", 80 grams): $32,265 - Crystallized Gold from Eldorado County California (3x2.5", 124 grams): $35,850 - Gold nugget, no location given (2.75x1.25", 311 grams): $47,800 John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 17:23:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John P. Junkroski) Date: Tue Nov 12 17:23:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain In-Reply-To: <001f01c28a9f$20a73f60$2bb39fc3@RW> Message-ID: My wife and I will be travelling in Southern Spain (Sevilla, Cordoba, Granada) and would like to do some collecting, if possible. Other than the RioTinto mines, we are finding little or no information. Has anybody on this list collected in Spain? Any advice? Any suggestions for sources of info? Thanks, John Junkroski From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 18:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Tue Nov 12 18:12:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rose Equipment Lap parts Message-ID: <005a01c28aba$83922b60$acab3a41@s4b5j4> I'm looking for a source to buy some of those small round neoprene balls = that a Rose lap table runs on. I think Rose Lap's are still being made = by someone in Bakersfield, Ca but I can't seem to find anything about = them even with a Google search. Anyone have a phone number? Cheers! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 19:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 19:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rose Equipment Lap parts Message-ID: <187.11066a35.2b031e21@aol.com> In a message dated 11/12/2002 9:11:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, rocks4u@prodigy.net writes: > I'm looking for a source to buy some of those small round neoprene balls > that a Rose lap table runs on. I think Rose Lap's are still being made by > someone in Bakersfield, Ca but I can't seem to find anything about them > even with a Google search. Anyone have a phone number? Cheers! > > If they are anything like the balls that a Lortone flat lap uses, try Toys-R-Us, etc. They have several different sizes usually and the price isn't bad at all. Used to be called super balls years ago, now they are generic. The Dollar Tree has also had them from time to time. Dan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 20:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Tue Nov 12 20:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021113041059.32376.qmail@web11108.mail.yahoo.com> John, I might add unfortunately most of us don't have the reputation or clientele (often with more money than sense) of Sotheby's so I could put one of those pieces out at my local show and would be unlikely to get anywhere near those kind of values for them. Cheers, Stan --- Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/12/2002 3:10:28 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes: > > > > Unfortunately, gold isn't worth $1500 an > ounce........... > > Actually gold is worth a lot more! As specimens, > gold is worth more than > bullion cost. A few weeks ago at Sotheby's, they > auctioned off several gold > specimens. Here are some of the prices: > > - Gold in Quartz from California (4x3", 715 grams > including quartz matrix): > $19,120 > - Crystallized Gold from Nevada County California > (3.25x1.75", 80 grams): > $32,265 > - Crystallized Gold from Eldorado County California > (3x2.5", 124 grams): > $35,850 > - Gold nugget, no location given (2.75x1.25", 311 > grams): $47,800 > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 20:16:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 20:16:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rose Equipment Lap parts Message-ID: <1a0.bb79607.2b032bf8@aol.com> Welcome to Raytech Industries I don't see it in there catalog, but I know that I have there 15 inch and I ordered the balls from them 2 years ago and they were I think $3.25 ea....They have a 1-800-# so you can give them a call and order if that is what your looking for. For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 20:24:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 20:24:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <77.1f815fb.2b032db7@aol.com> I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has a passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have seen one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 20:37:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Tue Nov 12 20:37:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message Message-ID: Reply-to: is not set to Rockhounds. And it has an attachment. Since I just posted, my name became known to whoever on the list is infected with Bugbear and I got a 57.74K byte BugBear file in response. Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 21:02:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Tue Nov 12 21:02:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <77.1f815fb.2b032db7@aol.com> Message-ID: <001d01c28ad1$c36af5c0$6acc94d1@remains> it depends on what type of egges they are, and where they are from. they could be worth as little as a few dollars a piece, to the better part of $10K each...dpending on a lot of factors ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 9:23 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has a > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have seen > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > > For now and till then, > JOHN > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 21:13:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 21:13:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <162.1703d26a.2b033934@aol.com> For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 21:13:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 12 21:13:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 21:14:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans) Date: Tue Nov 12 21:14:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Gold References: <22.31d9719f.2b02e251@aol.com> Message-ID: <040e01c28ad2$96f1f600$fc9d76d5@pandora.be> Hi John, Was it someones mineral collection that sold? Maybe some leftovers from Freilich? ;-) Cheers, Herwig Herwig Pelckmans Worldwide Mineral Collector Cardijnstraat 12 B-3530 Helchteren Belgium Europe http://www.xlizd.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:01 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Gold > In a message dated 11/12/2002 3:10:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, > dmschmidt@sprint.ca writes: > > > > Unfortunately, gold isn't worth $1500 an ounce........... > > Actually gold is worth a lot more! As specimens, gold is worth more than > bullion cost. A few weeks ago at Sotheby's, they auctioned off several gold > specimens. Here are some of the prices: > > - Gold in Quartz from California (4x3", 715 grams including quartz matrix): > $19,120 > - Crystallized Gold from Nevada County California (3.25x1.75", 80 grams): > $32,265 > - Crystallized Gold from Eldorado County California (3x2.5", 124 grams): > $35,850 > - Gold nugget, no location given (2.75x1.25", 311 grams): $47,800 > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 12 23:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Tue Nov 12 23:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodeve References: <001201c289d2$96701320$1b507ad9@cp282677a> <001f01c28a9f$20a73f60$2bb39fc3@RW> Message-ID: <00a301c28aea$2897e9e0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Ronald, great answer! thanx I mailed robert vernet also with this question and he told me that also Rabejac offers no possibilities for collecting minerals anymore We plan to travel through the Cevennes in a week, so I might contact the Schrander's, thanks for the tip. btw: how do you like this one: http://www.minerapole.com/a_/f_rv18.html p.s. your right, I should escape from Holland also ;-) I'm thinking of stopping with working and moving to Switzerland, Binntal for opening my own little Lengenbach quarry, no, make that mine, that's nicer, and do some specimen mining anyone willing to join me? Cheers! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronald Werner" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lodeve > Hi! > > I was there a couple of years ago, and visited only Mas d'Alary, because my > friends who live in France (they are Dutch too) told me there was no point > visiting any of the other mines you mention. The French used a vacuumcleaner > to remove even the last tiny piece of radioactive material. So, have NO > expectations regarding the radioactive stuff. But then again, Mas d'Alary > offers a nice suite of microminerals: dickite, dolomite, calcite, pyrite, > markasite, chalcopyrite, tetrahedrite and several others, nicely > crystallized stuff. The dickite is the finest I have ever seen. > > As far as access is concerned, I cannot guarantee you ANYTHING at all. I > have been told there is security, and they can be a bore, but we hadn't any > problems that time. Then again, we were together with a (authentic) French > collecter, the not long ago deceased Alain Caubel, expert on the > uranium-minerals from that area. We visited him at his home, which could at > it's best be described as a nuclear dumpsite: his entire house was full with > boxes with radioactive minerals! Best of all was the piece of 1-2 kg. pure > uranium (the 238 variety, not dangerously radioactive, he said) he once > managed to obtain from a processing plant. > > If you like, you could also try to contact Mr. Albert Schrander & Mrs. > Marianne Hettinga, formerly Dutch, but they escaped in time. Now they are > having a small business in the Cevennes, selling minerals and especially > high quality micromounts. They might still have some of the radioactive > minerals from those mines in stock. They once had many of the real rarities, > like the rabejacite etc. > > Their addres is: schrahett@wanadoo.fr > > Or snail mail: > > Albert & Marianne Schrander-Hettinga > Villa Les Lys > Rue de rossignol > F - 30120 Bréau > France > > They would probably welcome mail from anyone on the list who is interested > in high quality micromounts. > > Good luck! > > Ronald Werner > Postboks 2 > 4733 Evje > Norway > > PS Anyone on the list remembering me, and wondering why I haven't been > active at all the past year or so?! That's because I didn't have a telephone > connection, and for practical reasons couldn't get one either. I moved > yesterday, and now I DO have a connection! I won't have much time to enjoy > it (work, work..), but I might at least try to help answering a few > questions every now and then. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 00:35:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Wed Nov 13 00:35:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Jimmy, I wouldn't consider this a "hobby" because the guy died while operating a locomotive. I haven't heard of any hobbyist/amateur rockhounds who operate a locomotive for someone else. He goes underground to find gold. If he comes up with only a little bit, that's too bad. He was there on the job; not a hobby. I go to work expecting to make $xx per hour, but if I have to work twice as long to get the job done, I make half the money per hour. The mine owner knew he had numerous violations, so he is definitely partially at fault. If he couldn't pay the money to fix the violations, he should cut his losses and shut down the mine. As for the mine manager, I don't know. Anyone can argue either side of it. If he thinks the mine is too dangerous (i.e. too many violations), should he stop the miner from doing his job? I think he should. But maybe he didn't think it was too dangerous. We need more facts because 95% of that article was fluff. It makes a great story, but only a few paragraphs actually had details that are relevant to the case. Just my .02 cents worth... Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Chengi Kuo Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:00 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes The statement of "his own negligence" relates to the story that it was his specific job to mark those hazzards. And I wish to leave it to the court to decide if that is a valid interpretation for the criminal aspect of this case. In my $3/hr argument, I am juxtapositioning it against the IRS distinction between hobby and business. This is something that strikes at our participants. For some of us, it is a hobby. For some it is a business. My argument is that by choosing to do it for below minimum wage, it should be interpreted that the people involved are doing it as a hobby. We should always abhor loss of life. But, I judge differently if the person chose to do what he was doing. So, in my mind, that miner chose a hobby, where he might make some money along the way. That to me is the same as someone getting hurt spelunking. Jimmy On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:57:08 -0700 Rick Trapp wrote: > Jimmy, > > oh yeah, you're absolutely right. As long as > there is somebody out there > who is stupid enough or desperate enough to > work in an environment where > he or she goes and gets themselves killed, > businesses should absolutely > not be held responsible. > > Here's a good concrete example: mines should > really be looking for > people with below-average intelligence. That > way, if they get hurt or > killed then it obviously must be their fault > and the business can carry > on. Or better yet, maybe they should be hiring > sightless people to work > down there because everybody knows the lighting > is bad anyway and that > way if they stumble and fall into an unmarked > shaft, the mine owner can > argue that it wouldn't have done any good to > mark the shaft anyway. > > The main thing in the brave new world is that > every man IS an island; > never send to know for whom the bell tolls as > long as it it tolls for > anybody else.... > > Rick > > Chengi Kuo wrote: > > > Rick, I don't think that fits the picture. > From the article, it states that > > they worked for an average sometimes of $3 an > hour, below any choice of any > > other minimum wage job. So, there seems to > be a choice taken already by the > > miners to forego the protection of the > government in favor of something they > > would prefer to do than to protect their own > welfare (else they'd have a > > minimum wage job). > > > > That's my interpretation. > > > > But, the defendant says that the person died > of his own negligence. Where is > > your sense of innocent till proven guilty? > > > > Jimmy > > > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:50:58 -0700 Rick Trapp > wrote: > > > > > >>Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his > >>head crushed, not lynched. > >> > >>I guess you're right, though. Why should the > >>authorities get all worked > >>up just because some poor miner got killed in > a > >>mine that had been > >>repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's > >>the business that counts, > >>not the little guys.... People who work in > >>mines should expect to get > >>killed because it happens all the time. Makes > >>sense to me. Like those > >>miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they > >>wearing scuba outfits? Why > >>should the mine owner (who told them where to > >>dig) be held responsible > >>for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? > >>Everybody knows those > >>miners make tons of money. They should take > >>responsibility for their own > >>safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to > >>mention hospital costs > >>when they're injured and body recovery and > >>burial costs when they are > >>killed. All that MSHA is doing is > interefering > >>in free enterprise. > >>Businesses should be free to place their > >>employees in any kind of > >>conditions they want, including hazardous or > >>deadly ones. > >> > >>That's the problem with this country today. > Too > >>many little guys > >>thinking they have a right to good wages AND > >>safe working conditions and > >>too many government agencies trying to > obstruct > >>businesses by demanding > >>fair wages and safe working conditions. > >> > >>I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or > better > >>yet, throw everybody in > >>jail and then rent out the prisoners to use > as > >>unpaid slaves. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>T A Masters wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had > >>> > >>an incredibly large Gold > >> > >>>Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. > At > >>> > >>that time he told a story > >> > >>>about pending litigation against him for the > >>> > >>death of a miner. It was > >> > >>>so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about > >>> > >>it. I just received the > >> > >>>following. This looks like a lynching. Any > >>> > >>ideas? > >> > >>>Teresa > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Local news provided by: latimes.com > >>>> > >>>>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only > >>>> > >>Trouble Now > >> > >>>>By Lee Romney > >>>> > >>>>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > >>>> > >>Miller's fight is the Mother > >> > >>>>Lode's last stand. > >>>> > >>>>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, > has > >>>> > >>yielded some of the > >> > >>>>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined > >>>> > >>today much as it > >> > >>>>was a century ago by mud-caked men with > >>>> > >>picks, drills and dynamite, it > >> > >>>>is a living link to California's Gold Rush > >>>> > >>era. > >> > >>>>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > >>>> > >>gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > >> > >>>>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless > >>>> > >>time of needless > >> > >>>>injuries to people and the environment. > >>>> > >>>>Today, after the death of a miner, that way > >>>> > >>of life is on trial -- not > >> > >>>>just in the court of public opinion, but in > >>>> > >>the Sierra County > >> > >>>>Courthouse where Miller and his mine > manager > >>>> > >>face manslaughter and other > >> > >>>>felony charges. > >>>> > >>>>The indictments of Miller, 60, and > >>>> > >>32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > >> > >>>>only the third time that felony charges > have > >>>> > >>been brought > >> > >>>>against individuals under a 2-year-old > labor > >>>> > >>law for "willful violation > >> > >>>>of a safety standard" that results in > death. > >>>> > >>>>The case has divided a county that still > >>>> > >>clings to its mining roots > >> > >>>>despite the industry's decline and a steady > >>>> > >>trickle of newcomers > >> > >>>>who don't rely on the region's traditional > >>>> > >>sources of income -- logging > >> > >>>>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for > >>>> > >>its fading way of > >> > >>>>life. > >>>> > >>>>These days, local businesses in the county > >>>> > >>seat of Downieville, about an > >> > >>>>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, > are > >>>> > >>more > >> > >>>>dependent on mountain bikers and other > >>>> > >>recreational tourists. > >> > >>>>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > >>>> > >>drive up property > >> > >>>>values. The shift is aligning the county > more > >>>> > >>closely with a modern > >> > >>>>California -- one defined by tough > >>>> > >>environmental and > >> > >>>>workplace protections. > >>>> > >>>>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said > >>>> > >>Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > >> > >>>>County Superior Court judge and former > >>>> > >>Sixteen to One > >> > >>>>board member. "If you're going to extract > >>>> > >>minerals in the regulated > >> > >>>>civilized community, you're going to have > to > >>>> > >>abide by a whole > >> > >>>>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them > back > >>>> > >>then and it was easier, > >> > >>>>but things have changed." > >>>> > >>>>The Sixteen to One is among about a > >>>> > >>half-dozen underground hard-rock > >> > >>>>mines still operating in California, and > the > >>>> > >>only > >> > >>>>commercial gold mine left in a county that > >>>> > >>owes its origins to mining. > >> > >>>>While low gold prices, industry > consolidation > >>>> > >>and cumbersome regulations > >> > >>>>have driven off most small subsurface > >>>> > >>operators, > >> > >>>>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the > >>>> > >>regulators. He and his men > >> > >>>>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 > >>>> > >>miles of dank > >> > >>>>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected > nearly > >>>> > >>100 years ago. These days, > >> > >>>>profits are so meager that neither Miller > nor > >>>> > >>his > >> > >>>>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > >>>> > >>>>State and federal regulators have cited the > >>>> > >>mine more than 180 times > >> > >>>>over the last decade for faulty escape > >>>> > >>routes, broken > >> > >>>>ladders, improper storage of explosives. > >>>> > >>State water quality officials > >> > >>>>have fined the company for allowing > >>>> > >>arsenic-laden water to > >> > >>>>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting > the > >>>> > >>downstream drinking supply. > >> > >>>>The manslaughter charges stem from the > death > >>>> > >>two years ago of miner Mark > >> > >>>>Fussell, 36. > >>>> > >>>>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in > >>>> > >>the mine and had put it in > >> > >>>>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head > was > >>>> > >>crushed > >> > >>>>between the locomotive's battery and an ore > >>>> > >>chute that investigators say > >> > >>>>protruded lower than others in the mine and > >>>> > >>was > >> > >>>>unmarked. They also allege that the gears > >>>> > >>malfunctioned and that the > >> > >>>>locomotive had been placed on the track > >>>> > >>backward. > >> > >>>>The mine had been cited previously for not > >>>> > >>marking a similar ore chute > >> > >>>>on a different level of the mine. That > opened > >>>> > >>the door for > >> > >>>>prosecutors to file felony charges against > >>>> > >>Miller and Farrell. > >> > >>>>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > >>>> > >>>>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the > >>>> > >>decision to charge Miller and > >> > >>>>Farrell and not just the company that > >>>> > >>controls the mine. > >> > >>>>"The bottom line is corporations don't make > >>>> > >>decisions, individuals do," > >> > >>>>said Filter, who heads the California > >>>> > >>District Attorneys > >> > >>>>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We > prosecute > >>>> > >>only the most egregious > >> > >>>>type of conduct," Filter added. > >>>> > >>>>Miller called the case "meritless," saying > it > >>>> > >>was Fussell's job to mark > >> > >>>>hazards, like the one that killed him, and > >>>> > >>blamed the miner's > >> > >>>>death on his own negligence. > >>>> > >>>>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > >>>> > >>killer," Miller said. > >> > >>>>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present > during > >>>> > >>the incident. Moreover, a > >> > >>>>state inspector had stood beneath the same > >>>> > >>chute a week > >> > >>>>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, > Miller > >>>> > >>said. > >> > >>>>If he can be charged with killing his > worker > >>>> > >>under those circumstances, > >> > >>>>said Miller, the industry is headed for > >>>> > >>trouble. > >> > >>>>"There are people who feel that California > >>>> > >>will be a better place > >> > >>>>without the ability to produce gold, and > >>>> > >>they'll use any means to > >> > >>>>try to accomplish that," Miller said. > >>>> > >>>>Here in Sierra County, part-time > prospectors > >>>> > >>still dredge the rivers for > >> > >>>>gold and work small, private claims. A sign > >>>> > >>in the office of > >> > >>>>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We > >>>> > >>Support the Mother Lode > >> > >>>>Miners and the American Mining Industry and > >>>> > >>They > >> > >>>>Support Us." > >>>> > >>>>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold > >>>> > >>prices is all that's needed > >> > >>>>to revive the Mother Lode. > >>>> > >>>>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to > send > >>>> > >>gold sky high," said David > >> > >>>>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who > works > >>>> > >>an > >> > >>>>underground claim on evenings and weekends > >>>> > >>and heads the nearly defunct > >> > >>>>Northern Mining Council. > >>>> > >>>>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be > >>>> > >>honest, you've got to have > >> > >>>>money and you've got to have patience.' You > >>>> > >>put those > >> > >>>>ingredients together and we'll have gold > >>>> > >>mining in this area again." > >> > >>>>Miller's supporters point out that > Fussell's > >>>> > >>death was the mine's first > >> > >>>>fatality in more than 50 years. This year > >>>> > >>alone, 56 people > >> > >>>>have died in mines around the country. > >>>> > >>>>"No one believed that anything but an > >>>> > >>accident had happened," said Bill > >> > >>>>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as > it > >>>> > >>might be, > >> > >>>>it's the nature of the business. You can be > a > >>>> > >>computer assistant manager > >> > >>>>if you don't want your job to kill you." > >>>> > >>>>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully > negligent > >>>> > >>is not one of them," said > >> > >>>>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > >>>> > >>owner of the weekly > >> > >>>>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > >>>> > >>>>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > >>>> > >>granite bedrock of the central > >> > >>>>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident > who > >>>> > >>named it > >> > >>>>in honor of populist William Jennings > Bryan's > >>>> > >>presidential campaign > >> > >>>>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > >>>> > >>ratio. > >> > >>>>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > >>>> > >>concentrations of high-grade > >> > >>>>ore, the mine prospered on and off until > 1965 > >>>> > >>when it was > >> > >>>>effectively closed, then mined only > >>>> > >>sporadically by locals who leased > >> > >>>>the claims. > >>>> > >>>>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > >>>> > >>when he first visited the mine > >> > >>>>in 1974. It was the same year that the > >>>> > >>federal government > >> > >>>>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy > ounce, > >>>> > >>to trade on the open > >> > >>>>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an > >>>> > >>ounce by 1980. > >> > >>>>He seized control of the company that owned > >>>> > >>the Sixteen to One in 1983 > >> > >>>>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > >>>> > >>becoming its chief > >> > >>>>executive. At first, Miller leased the > mining > >>>> > >>claims to a series of > >> > >>>>exploration companies. When they pulled out > >>>> > >>in 1991, Miller took > >> > >>>>over day-to-day operations. > >>>> > >>>>A series of multimillion-dollar finds > >>>> > >>followed. The company rolled much > >> > >>>>of its profits back into mine improvements, > >>>> > >>Miller said, and > >> > >>>>began acquiring other mining properties. > But > >>>> > >>in recent years, the > >> > >>>>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > >>>> > >>>>The company's prized collection of gold > >>>> > >>specimens and carved gold-laced > >> > >>>>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its > stock > >>>> > >>was > >> > >>>>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange > for > >>>> > >>consistently trading below > >> > >>>>a dollar. > >>>> > >>>>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has > >>>> > >>been a growing pile of > >> > >>>>safety and environmental citations. > >>>> > >>>>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > >>>> > >>arsenic discharge, and > >> > >>>>ultimately reduce it to required drinking > >>>> > >>water standards. After > >> > >>>>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > >>>> > >>plan or pay more than $27,000 > >> > >>>>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case > >>>> > >>was referred to > >> > >>>>the state attorney general's office, a > deputy > >>>> > >>attorney general said. > >> > >>>>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > >>>> > >>>>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew > of > >>>> > >>six, makes its daily trek a > >> > >>>>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka > Creek > >>>> > >>Canyon. > >> > >>>>There, the men use metal detectors and > >>>> > >>dynamite in their quest for > >> > >>>>another payload. > >>>> > >>>>The men check pumps that suck water from > the > >>>> > >>mine's lower levels, > >> > >>>>exposing what they hope will be another > rich > >>>> > >>vein. > >> > >>>>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from > >>>> > >>the portal, the day's take > >> > >>>>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one > dirty > >>>> > >>tube sock. > >> > >>>>They split the proceeds from the communal > >>>> > >>haul. Recently, that has come > >> > >>>>to little more than $3 an hour per man. > >>>> > >>>>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's > >>>> > >>cause suggest it may be time > >> > >>>>to let go of a way of life that is more > >>>> > >>trouble than it is > >> > >>>>worth. > >>>> > >>>>"In the underground small operation that > was > >>>> > >>popular from 1850 right up > >> > >>>>until five or six years ago, there are just > a > >>>> > >>few > >> > >>>>hardheaded people left," said Donald > Dickey, > >>>> > >>who shut down his own gold > >> > >>>>mine here earlier this year. > >>>> > >>>>"There will always be people beating their > >>>> > >>heads against rock. That's > >> > >>>>gone on since biblical times. But it won't > be > >>>> > >>a viable > >> > >>>>industry as such." > >>>> > >>>>The county's economy once depended almost > >>>> > >>exclusively on mining and > >> > >>>>logging, but it has been decades since > mining > >>>> > >>was a > >> > >>>>significant economic force here. Logging > too, > >>>> > >>is a shadow of its former > >> > >>>>self, with the last sawmill recently > >>>> > >>shuttered. Government > >> > >>>>now employs more than 40% in this county of > >>>> > >>3,100. > >> > >>>>"As a resource-based economy, it's > completely > >>>> > >>dead," said Sierra County > >> > >>>>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > >>>> > >>historian. "Mike > >> > >>>>is just an artifact." > >>>> > >>>>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him > >>>> > >>to wrest a commodity from > >> > >>>>the earth and create wealth, he said. The > >>>> > >>experience is a > >> > >>>>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. > Today, > >>>> > >>he defends what's left of > >> > >>>>the dream with Old West bluster and an > >>>> > >>ivory-handled .38 > >> > >>>>pistol tucked in his waistband. > >>>> > >>>>He says he's been targeted as part of a > >>>> > >>"rural cleansing" campaign > >> > >>>>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other > >>>> > >>old-fashioned > >> > >>>>country folk. > >>>> > >>>>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, > >>>> > >>and they represent the last > >> > >>>>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > >>>> > >>"It's a symbol to a > >> > >>>>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts > >>> > >>--- > >> > >>>multipart/alternative > >>> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >>> text/html > >>>--- > >>> > >>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >> > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>>Subscription Services: > >>> > >>> > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>Rick Trapp > >>Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > >>rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>Subscription Services: > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > -- > Rick Trapp > Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 00:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Nov 13 00:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain References: Message-ID: <004101c28af1$98e52260$399e77d5@pandora.be> John, I sent you an Exell file with the localities of all my fluorescent minerals from Spain. Naturally, the red quartz and pyrite won't fluoresce but all the others do. I don't have information on the localities! Just their names. If anyone else is going to Spain, just yell and I'll mail you the file too. It's only 14 kB. Best Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "John P. Junkroski" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain | | My wife and I will be travelling in Southern Spain (Sevilla, Cordoba, | Granada) and would like to do some collecting, if possible. | | Other than the RioTinto mines, we are finding little or no information. | | Has anybody on this list collected in Spain? Any advice? Any suggestions for | sources of info? | | Thanks, | | John Junkroski | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 00:44:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Wed Nov 13 00:44:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs In-Reply-To: <77.1f815fb.2b032db7@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi John, You might want to talk to Charlie and Florence Magovern at the Stone Company. They specialize in fossil dino eggs from around the world. Florence gave a very nice presentation to our club last Friday night. You can contact them via: http://www.stonecompany.com Charlie & Florence Magovern Box 18814, Boulder, Colorado 80308 Phone (303) 581-0670 - FAX (303) 581-0490 Email: stoneco@aol.com Good luck, Bob Loeffler President and webmaster North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/ and a member of the Rock & Mineral Society (RAMS) Check out the best Colorado Rockhounding website at: http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/colorado/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of RckSwapr42@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 9:23 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has a passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have seen one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 06:08:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 06:08:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Gold Message-ID: <138.177367c6.2b03b67b@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2002 12:14:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, herwig.pelckmans@pandora.be writes: > Was it someones mineral collection that sold? > Maybe some leftovers from Freilich? The gold collection was part of the estate of Esmond Bradley Martin. There were many items of fine quality decorative arts also. Nine lots of gold were auctioned. About 120 specimens total. All bids were above the pre-auction estimates. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 07:34:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (T A Masters) Date: Wed Nov 13 07:34:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: Message-ID: <3DD271B4.2D79EB16@cox.net> Bob, Re; > We need more > facts because 95% of that article was fluff. It makes a great story, but > only a few paragraphs actually had details that are relevant to the case. > > For more information, here is the Sixteen to One Mine's Web Site. > I was speaking from direct and personal information from Mike Miller and his fellow miners I met last year. Yes Mike is right in there every mining day shoulder to shoulder with the rest of his miner friends. There is a lot more to the story, so perhaps this will answer some of the judgmental statements posted. Teresa > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 07:44:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Wed Nov 13 07:44:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: Message-ID: <000701c28b2b$4294d560$621cbed8@powertech.net> *Very* well-put, Aaron!!! Margaret Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes > As I see it, here are the fundamental issues. > > * Mining is a federally regulated business in the United States. If you > are operating as a corporation, there are certain standards by which (L&I, > mine safety, taxes, etc) that you MUST follow. There is no choice. I'm > sorry if you hearken back to the ye-olden days of hard rock mining, where > more died than found nuggets. But the law is the law. If you don't like > it, spend the money to get it changed or take the law to court to get it > declared unconstitutional. If YOU, as the mine owner, don't take the > responsibility for employee safety, you are not only in violation of > mining laws, but also state and federal laws. Doesn't matter if it makes > it hard for you to do business. Tough shit. Those are the rules. They are > there because generations before us fought to get those protections > enacted. > > Now, if it's a HOBBY mine, not for profit, and not incorporated, you > should be able to do what you damn well please, excepting environmental > effects (below). > > * Environmental regulations apply to everyone. Just because it's too > difficult for you to contain your arsenic runoff doesn't mean you aren't > responsible for the consequences. > > The guy's whole story is that, "oh, it's so hard to make a living with all > these burdensome regulations, so I'm not going to follow them." B.S. You > don't like the regs, you either fight to change them or you live with > them. You don't disobey them. That's the price you pay for living in a > 'civilized' society like modern-day America. Deal. > > Now, I'm not anti-mine, or pro-big business. But there are rules. And if > nobody plays by the rules, the system falls apart. And that's an even > less palatable situation, IMHO. > > > > Aaron > > > Jimmy, > > > > oh yeah, you're absolutely right. As long as there is somebody out there > > who is stupid enough or desperate enough to work in an environment where > > he or she goes and gets themselves killed, businesses should absolutely > > not be held responsible. > > > > Here's a good concrete example: mines should really be looking for > > people with below-average intelligence. That way, if they get hurt or > > killed then it obviously must be their fault and the business can carry > > on. Or better yet, maybe they should be hiring sightless people to work > > down there because everybody knows the lighting is bad anyway and that > > way if they stumble and fall into an unmarked shaft, the mine owner can > > argue that it wouldn't have done any good to mark the shaft anyway. > > > > The main thing in the brave new world is that every man IS an island; > > never send to know for whom the bell tolls as long as it it tolls for > > anybody else.... > > > > Rick > > > > Chengi Kuo wrote: > > > > > Rick, I don't think that fits the picture. From the article, it states that > > > they worked for an average sometimes of $3 an hour, below any choice of any > > > other minimum wage job. So, there seems to be a choice taken already by the > > > miners to forego the protection of the government in favor of something they > > > would prefer to do than to protect their own welfare (else they'd have a > > > minimum wage job). > > > > > > That's my interpretation. > > > > > > But, the defendant says that the person died of his own negligence. Where is > > > your sense of innocent till proven guilty? > > > > > > Jimmy > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:50:58 -0700 Rick Trapp wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Gee Teresa, it sounds like the miner got his > > >>head crushed, not lynched. > > >> > > >>I guess you're right, though. Why should the > > >>authorities get all worked > > >>up just because some poor miner got killed in a > > >>mine that had been > > >>repeatedly cited for safety violations? It's > > >>the business that counts, > > >>not the little guys.... People who work in > > >>mines should expect to get > > >>killed because it happens all the time. Makes > > >>sense to me. Like those > > >>miners in Pennsylvania. Why weren't they > > >>wearing scuba outfits? Why > > >>should the mine owner (who told them where to > > >>dig) be held responsible > > >>for them almost drowning and/or suffocating? > > >>Everybody knows those > > >>miners make tons of money. They should take > > >>responsibility for their own > > >>safety and pay their own rescue costs, not to > > >>mention hospital costs > > >>when they're injured and body recovery and > > >>burial costs when they are > > >>killed. All that MSHA is doing is interefering > > >>in free enterprise. > > >>Businesses should be free to place their > > >>employees in any kind of > > >>conditions they want, including hazardous or > > >>deadly ones. > > >> > > >>That's the problem with this country today. Too > > >>many little guys > > >>thinking they have a right to good wages AND > > >>safe working conditions and > > >>too many government agencies trying to obstruct > > >>businesses by demanding > > >>fair wages and safe working conditions. > > >> > > >>I say we bring back the sweat shops. Or better > > >>yet, throw everybody in > > >>jail and then rent out the prisoners to use as > > >>unpaid slaves. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>T A Masters wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>Met Mike Miller at a CFMS Show where he had > > >>> > > >>an incredibly large Gold > > >> > > >>>Specimen found in the Sixteen to One Mine. At > > >>> > > >>that time he told a story > > >> > > >>>about pending litigation against him for the > > >>> > > >>death of a miner. It was > > >> > > >>>so unbelievable, I posted a ,message about > > >>> > > >>it. I just received the > > >> > > >>>following. This looks like a lynching. Any > > >>> > > >>ideas? > > >> > > >>>Teresa > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>Local news provided by: latimes.com > > >>>> > > >>>>Relic of a Lost Era, Gold Mine Strikes Only > > >>>> > > >>Trouble Now > > >> > > >>>>By Lee Romney > > >>>> > > >>>>To hear some tell it, Michael Meister > > >>>> > > >>Miller's fight is the Mother > > >> > > >>>>Lode's last stand. > > >>>> > > >>>>Since 1896, his mine, the Sixteen to One, has > > >>>> > > >>yielded some of the > > >> > > >>>>state's densest gold concentrations. Mined > > >>>> > > >>today much as it > > >> > > >>>>was a century ago by mud-caked men with > > >>>> > > >>picks, drills and dynamite, it > > >> > > >>>>is a living link to California's Gold Rush > > >>>> > > >>era. > > >> > > >>>>For some, the Sixteen to One evokes the > > >>>> > > >>gritty pageantry of the '49ers. > > >> > > >>>>To others, it is a throwback to a reckless > > >>>> > > >>time of needless > > >> > > >>>>injuries to people and the environment. > > >>>> > > >>>>Today, after the death of a miner, that way > > >>>> > > >>of life is on trial -- not > > >> > > >>>>just in the court of public opinion, but in > > >>>> > > >>the Sierra County > > >> > > >>>>Courthouse where Miller and his mine manager > > >>>> > > >>face manslaughter and other > > >> > > >>>>felony charges. > > >>>> > > >>>>The indictments of Miller, 60, and > > >>>> > > >>32-year-old Jonathan Farrell mark > > >> > > >>>>only the third time that felony charges have > > >>>> > > >>been brought > > >> > > >>>>against individuals under a 2-year-old labor > > >>>> > > >>law for "willful violation > > >> > > >>>>of a safety standard" that results in death. > > >>>> > > >>>>The case has divided a county that still > > >>>> > > >>clings to its mining roots > > >> > > >>>>despite the industry's decline and a steady > > >>>> > > >>trickle of newcomers > > >> > > >>>>who don't rely on the region's traditional > > >>>> > > >>sources of income -- logging > > >> > > >>>>and mining -- or profess much nostalgia for > > >>>> > > >>its fading way of > > >> > > >>>>life. > > >>>> > > >>>>These days, local businesses in the county > > >>>> > > >>seat of Downieville, about an > > >> > > >>>>hour and a half northeast of Nevada City, are > > >>>> > > >>more > > >> > > >>>>dependent on mountain bikers and other > > >>>> > > >>recreational tourists. > > >> > > >>>>Expatriates from Truckee, Tahoe and Reno > > >>>> > > >>drive up property > > >> > > >>>>values. The shift is aligning the county more > > >>>> > > >>closely with a modern > > >> > > >>>>California -- one defined by tough > > >>>> > > >>environmental and > > >> > > >>>>workplace protections. > > >>>> > > >>>>"Miller was born 70 years too late," said > > >>>> > > >>Brian Van Camp, a Sacramento > > >> > > >>>>County Superior Court judge and former > > >>>> > > >>Sixteen to One > > >> > > >>>>board member. "If you're going to extract > > >>>> > > >>minerals in the regulated > > >> > > >>>>civilized community, you're going to have to > > >>>> > > >>abide by a whole > > >> > > >>>>lot of rules. Yes, they didn't have them back > > >>>> > > >>then and it was easier, > > >> > > >>>>but things have changed." > > >>>> > > >>>>The Sixteen to One is among about a > > >>>> > > >>half-dozen underground hard-rock > > >> > > >>>>mines still operating in California, and the > > >>>> > > >>only > > >> > > >>>>commercial gold mine left in a county that > > >>>> > > >>owes its origins to mining. > > >> > > >>>>While low gold prices, industry consolidation > > >>>> > > >>and cumbersome regulations > > >> > > >>>>have driven off most small subsurface > > >>>> > > >>operators, > > >> > > >>>>Miller thumbs his nose at the odds and the > > >>>> > > >>regulators. He and his men > > >> > > >>>>dig for gold the old-fashioned way -- in 27 > > >>>> > > >>miles of dank > > >> > > >>>>tunnels braced by wooden beams erected nearly > > >>>> > > >>100 years ago. These days, > > >> > > >>>>profits are so meager that neither Miller nor > > >>>> > > >>his > > >> > > >>>>skeleton crew are drawing salaries. > > >>>> > > >>>>State and federal regulators have cited the > > >>>> > > >>mine more than 180 times > > >> > > >>>>over the last decade for faulty escape > > >>>> > > >>routes, broken > > >> > > >>>>ladders, improper storage of explosives. > > >>>> > > >>State water quality officials > > >> > > >>>>have fined the company for allowing > > >>>> > > >>arsenic-laden water to > > >> > > >>>>flow into nearby Kanaka Creek, polluting the > > >>>> > > >>downstream drinking supply. > > >> > > >>>>The manslaughter charges stem from the death > > >>>> > > >>two years ago of miner Mark > > >> > > >>>>Fussell, 36. > > >>>> > > >>>>Fussell was operating a locomotive deep in > > >>>> > > >>the mine and had put it in > > >> > > >>>>reverse to retrieve some lumber. His head was > > >>>> > > >>crushed > > >> > > >>>>between the locomotive's battery and an ore > > >>>> > > >>chute that investigators say > > >> > > >>>>protruded lower than others in the mine and > > >>>> > > >>was > > >> > > >>>>unmarked. They also allege that the gears > > >>>> > > >>malfunctioned and that the > > >> > > >>>>locomotive had been placed on the track > > >>>> > > >>backward. > > >> > > >>>>The mine had been cited previously for not > > >>>> > > >>marking a similar ore chute > > >> > > >>>>on a different level of the mine. That opened > > >>>> > > >>the door for > > >> > > >>>>prosecutors to file felony charges against > > >>>> > > >>Miller and Farrell. > > >> > > >>>>An arraignment is scheduled for Nov. 20. > > >>>> > > >>>>The prosecutor, Gale Filter, explained the > > >>>> > > >>decision to charge Miller and > > >> > > >>>>Farrell and not just the company that > > >>>> > > >>controls the mine. > > >> > > >>>>"The bottom line is corporations don't make > > >>>> > > >>decisions, individuals do," > > >> > > >>>>said Filter, who heads the California > > >>>> > > >>District Attorneys > > >> > > >>>>Assn.'s worker safety project. "We prosecute > > >>>> > > >>only the most egregious > > >> > > >>>>type of conduct," Filter added. > > >>>> > > >>>>Miller called the case "meritless," saying it > > >>>> > > >>was Fussell's job to mark > > >> > > >>>>hazards, like the one that killed him, and > > >>>> > > >>blamed the miner's > > >> > > >>>>death on his own negligence. > > >>>> > > >>>>"Mark had a lapse of what I call the fool > > >>>> > > >>killer," Miller said. > > >> > > >>>>Neither Miller nor Farrell was present during > > >>>> > > >>the incident. Moreover, a > > >> > > >>>>state inspector had stood beneath the same > > >>>> > > >>chute a week > > >> > > >>>>earlier and failed to notice a hazard, Miller > > >>>> > > >>said. > > >> > > >>>>If he can be charged with killing his worker > > >>>> > > >>under those circumstances, > > >> > > >>>>said Miller, the industry is headed for > > >>>> > > >>trouble. > > >> > > >>>>"There are people who feel that California > > >>>> > > >>will be a better place > > >> > > >>>>without the ability to produce gold, and > > >>>> > > >>they'll use any means to > > >> > > >>>>try to accomplish that," Miller said. > > >>>> > > >>>>Here in Sierra County, part-time prospectors > > >>>> > > >>still dredge the rivers for > > >> > > >>>>gold and work small, private claims. A sign > > >>>> > > >>in the office of > > >> > > >>>>the county's weekly newspaper declares: "We > > >>>> > > >>Support the Mother Lode > > >> > > >>>>Miners and the American Mining Industry and > > >>>> > > >>They > > >> > > >>>>Support Us." > > >>>> > > >>>>Many remain convinced that a spike in gold > > >>>> > > >>prices is all that's needed > > >> > > >>>>to revive the Mother Lode. > > >>>> > > >>>>"All you need is one more 9/11 scare to send > > >>>> > > >>gold sky high," said David > > >> > > >>>>O'Donnell, a third-generation miner who works > > >>>> > > >>an > > >> > > >>>>underground claim on evenings and weekends > > >>>> > > >>and heads the nearly defunct > > >> > > >>>>Northern Mining Council. > > >>>> > > >>>>"My dad used to tell me, 'You've got to be > > >>>> > > >>honest, you've got to have > > >> > > >>>>money and you've got to have patience.' You > > >>>> > > >>put those > > >> > > >>>>ingredients together and we'll have gold > > >>>> > > >>mining in this area again." > > >> > > >>>>Miller's supporters point out that Fussell's > > >>>> > > >>death was the mine's first > > >> > > >>>>fatality in more than 50 years. This year > > >>>> > > >>alone, 56 people > > >> > > >>>>have died in mines around the country. > > >>>> > > >>>>"No one believed that anything but an > > >>>> > > >>accident had happened," said Bill > > >> > > >>>>Copren, the county assessor. "As tragic as it > > >>>> > > >>might be, > > >> > > >>>>it's the nature of the business. You can be a > > >>>> > > >>computer assistant manager > > >> > > >>>>if you don't want your job to kill you." > > >>>> > > >>>>"Mike is a lot of things. Willfully negligent > > >>>> > > >>is not one of them," said > > >> > > >>>>Don Russell, the bearded, barrel-bellied > > >>>> > > >>owner of the weekly > > >> > > >>>>Mountain Messenger in Downieville. > > >>>> > > >>>>The Sixteen to One was carved out of the > > >>>> > > >>granite bedrock of the central > > >> > > >>>>Sierra Nevada in 1896 by a local resident who > > >>>> > > >>named it > > >> > > >>>>in honor of populist William Jennings Bryan's > > >>>> > > >>presidential campaign > > >> > > >>>>proposal for a fixed silver-to-gold price > > >>>> > > >>ratio. > > >> > > >>>>Known as a pocket mine for its jewel-like > > >>>> > > >>concentrations of high-grade > > >> > > >>>>ore, the mine prospered on and off until 1965 > > >>>> > > >>when it was > > >> > > >>>>effectively closed, then mined only > > >>>> > > >>sporadically by locals who leased > > >> > > >>>>the claims. > > >>>> > > >>>>Miller was running a bar in Santa Barbara > > >>>> > > >>when he first visited the mine > > >> > > >>>>in 1974. It was the same year that the > > >>>> > > >>federal government > > >> > > >>>>allowed gold, long fixed at $35 a troy ounce, > > >>>> > > >>to trade on the open > > >> > > >>>>market. The price soared, exceeding $800 an > > >>>> > > >>ounce by 1980. > > >> > > >>>>He seized control of the company that owned > > >>>> > > >>the Sixteen to One in 1983 > > >> > > >>>>after a spirited six-year proxy battle, > > >>>> > > >>becoming its chief > > >> > > >>>>executive. At first, Miller leased the mining > > >>>> > > >>claims to a series of > > >> > > >>>>exploration companies. When they pulled out > > >>>> > > >>in 1991, Miller took > > >> > > >>>>over day-to-day operations. > > >>>> > > >>>>A series of multimillion-dollar finds > > >>>> > > >>followed. The company rolled much > > >> > > >>>>of its profits back into mine improvements, > > >>>> > > >>Miller said, and > > >> > > >>>>began acquiring other mining properties. But > > >>>> > > >>in recent years, the > > >> > > >>>>Sixteen to One has fallen on hard times. > > >>>> > > >>>>The company's prized collection of gold > > >>>> > > >>specimens and carved gold-laced > > >> > > >>>>quartz is up for sale. Last month, its stock > > >>>> > > >>was > > >> > > >>>>delisted from the Pacific Stock Exchange for > > >>>> > > >>consistently trading below > > >> > > >>>>a dollar. > > >>>> > > >>>>Compounding Miller's financial troubles has > > >>>> > > >>been a growing pile of > > >> > > >>>>safety and environmental citations. > > >>>> > > >>>>Last spring, he was ordered to monitor an > > >>>> > > >>arsenic discharge, and > > >> > > >>>>ultimately reduce it to required drinking > > >>>> > > >>water standards. After > > >> > > >>>>he failed to turn in an arsenic reduction > > >>>> > > >>plan or pay more than $27,000 > > >> > > >>>>in overdue fines and permit fees, his case > > >>>> > > >>was referred to > > >> > > >>>>the state attorney general's office, a deputy > > >>>> > > >>attorney general said. > > >> > > >>>>Meanwhile, the mine is struggling. > > >>>> > > >>>>Miller's workforce, reduced now to a crew of > > >>>> > > >>six, makes its daily trek a > > >> > > >>>>half-mile into the earth beneath Kanaka Creek > > >>>> > > >>Canyon. > > >> > > >>>>There, the men use metal detectors and > > >>>> > > >>dynamite in their quest for > > >> > > >>>>another payload. > > >>>> > > >>>>The men check pumps that suck water from the > > >>>> > > >>mine's lower levels, > > >> > > >>>>exposing what they hope will be another rich > > >>>> > > >>vein. > > >> > > >>>>By midafternoon, they emerge squinting from > > >>>> > > >>the portal, the day's take > > >> > > >>>>of gold-laced quartz stuffed inside one dirty > > >>>> > > >>tube sock. > > >> > > >>>>They split the proceeds from the communal > > >>>> > > >>haul. Recently, that has come > > >> > > >>>>to little more than $3 an hour per man. > > >>>> > > >>>>Today, even people sympathetic to Miller's > > >>>> > > >>cause suggest it may be time > > >> > > >>>>to let go of a way of life that is more > > >>>> > > >>trouble than it is > > >> > > >>>>worth. > > >>>> > > >>>>"In the underground small operation that was > > >>>> > > >>popular from 1850 right up > > >> > > >>>>until five or six years ago, there are just a > > >>>> > > >>few > > >> > > >>>>hardheaded people left," said Donald Dickey, > > >>>> > > >>who shut down his own gold > > >> > > >>>>mine here earlier this year. > > >>>> > > >>>>"There will always be people beating their > > >>>> > > >>heads against rock. That's > > >> > > >>>>gone on since biblical times. But it won't be > > >>>> > > >>a viable > > >> > > >>>>industry as such." > > >>>> > > >>>>The county's economy once depended almost > > >>>> > > >>exclusively on mining and > > >> > > >>>>logging, but it has been decades since mining > > >>>> > > >>was a > > >> > > >>>>significant economic force here. Logging too, > > >>>> > > >>is a shadow of its former > > >> > > >>>>self, with the last sawmill recently > > >>>> > > >>shuttered. Government > > >> > > >>>>now employs more than 40% in this county of > > >>>> > > >>3,100. > > >> > > >>>>"As a resource-based economy, it's completely > > >>>> > > >>dead," said Sierra County > > >> > > >>>>Sheriff Lee Adams, an amateur local > > >>>> > > >>historian. "Mike > > >> > > >>>>is just an artifact." > > >>>> > > >>>>Miller is undaunted. Gold-mining allows him > > >>>> > > >>to wrest a commodity from > > >> > > >>>>the earth and create wealth, he said. The > > >>>> > > >>experience is a > > >> > > >>>>"dream for a lot of boy-men," he said. Today, > > >>>> > > >>he defends what's left of > > >> > > >>>>the dream with Old West bluster and an > > >>>> > > >>ivory-handled .38 > > >> > > >>>>pistol tucked in his waistband. > > >>>> > > >>>>He says he's been targeted as part of a > > >>>> > > >>"rural cleansing" campaign > > >> > > >>>>against miners, loggers, ranchers and other > > >>>> > > >>old-fashioned > > >> > > >>>>country folk. > > >>>> > > >>>>"The Sixteen to One miners face extinction, > > >>>> > > >>and they represent the last > > >> > > >>>>of the deep hard-rock guys," Miller said. > > >>>> > > >>"It's a symbol to a > > >> > > >>>>lot of people, and I don't want it to die." > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts > > >>> > > >>--- > > >> > > >>>multipart/alternative > > >>> text/plain (text body -- kept) > > >>> text/html > > >>>--- > > >>> > > >>> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >> > > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >>>Subscription Services: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>Rick Trapp > > >>Geologist, Arizona Geological Survey > > >>rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >>Subscription Services: > > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox > GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request > "Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..." > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 08:06:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 08:06:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes References: <3DD271B4.2D79EB16@cox.net> Message-ID: <002c01c28b2e$8acd1dd0$41ca94d1@remains> Teresa: why do you post a letter to this list talking about how these guy(s) have broken the law time and time again, and then expect people to feel sorry for them now that there may be some severe consequences to their actions? are these people above the law?? as far as judgments go, what did you expect? that all of the sensible people on this list would just say "oh, those poor miners...." if you don't think these guys have done anything wrong, and are being unfairly persecuted, why don't you go down to the mine and show your solidarity? don't forget while you are down there to be sure to drink your fill of water from the creeks, rivers, or wells that are downhill or downstream from the mine.....I'll bet it's just wonderful tasting water!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "T A Masters" To: ; "Rockhounds" ; "LA Rocks" Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:37 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes > Bob, > > Re; > > > We need more > > facts because 95% of that article was fluff. It makes a great story, but > > only a few paragraphs actually had details that are relevant to the case. > > > > For more information, here is the Sixteen to One Mine's Web Site. > > > > I was speaking from direct and personal information from Mike Miller and > his fellow miners I met last year. Yes Mike is right in there every > mining day shoulder to shoulder with the rest of his miner friends. > > There is a lot more to the story, so perhaps this will answer some of > the judgmental statements posted. > Teresa > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 08:23:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 08:23:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold Mine Owner Woes Message-ID: <7C29CB39.1EB4272F.02180873@aol.com> In the end the decision will center on 3 factors: * First does the law apply to the mine owner. If he is paying individuals a salary, it would be tough to say he is non-commercial. Also the fact that he'd been inspected on numerous occasions suggests the law applies to him. * Second was he aware of (or should have been aware of) the violations. If he'd been cited for those violations before at any other location, the courts will probably believe his violation was willful. Even if he had not been cited, the law expects a mine operator to know the regs and to follow them. Ignorance of common regs will not disprove willfulness. * Third, did the violations materially contribute to the injury/fatality. In other words the govt will have to prove that the violations caused or contributed to the injury in some meaningful way. Remember they are seeking a Felony conviction. If they can prove these 3 things, his goose is deservedly cooked. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 08:32:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Wed Nov 13 08:32:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <77.1f815fb.2b032db7@aol.com> Message-ID: <003b01c28b32$0536d360$621cbed8@powertech.net> > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has a > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have seen > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > > For now and till then, > JOHN I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the price -- well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely essential to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. Margaret > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 08:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 08:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <77.1f815fb.2b032db7@aol.com> <003b01c28b32$0536d360$621cbed8@powertech.net> Message-ID: <004601c28b34$d82fb280$41ca94d1@remains> they are not eggs..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Malm" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has a > > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have > seen > > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > > > > For now and till then, > > JOHN > > I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the price -- > well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely essential > to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > > Margaret > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 09:58:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 09:58:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be something much more common. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael Schmidt" writes: >they are not eggs..... >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Margaret Malm" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > >> >> >> > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has >a >> > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have >> seen >> > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. >> > >> > For now and till then, >> > JOHN >> >> I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the price -- >> well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely >essential >> to life, is  -- what people are willing to pay. >> >> Margaret >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> > Subscription Services: >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 10:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 10:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rose Equipment Lap parts Message-ID: <2f.2fecc7a8.2b03f22e@aol.com> Those neoprene spheres are essential !! I can't find his number but he's still there in Bakersfield Try calling the chamber of commerce and ask them to look it up.. It may be in the phone book in the business white pages somewhere RocknLight From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 10:25:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 10:25:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> I saw the photos....I have sold hundreds of eggs...from South America, Europe, Asia......these are not eggs. I was sent the pics last night they are some kind of septarian nodule. It would be the paleontological discovery of the last 100 years (in North America) if hundreds of complete spherical non-crushed eggs were found at a single site (in the USA or anywhere in the world for that matter!) it just doesn't happen....and these aren't eggs. It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for fossil materials..... the dendritic iron oxide staining on some limestone fossils (what is that material...can't remember the name...) is quite often mistaken for fern fossils....... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be something much more common. > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > > > In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael Schmidt" writes: > > >they are not eggs..... > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Margaret Malm" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > >> > >> > >> > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has > >a > >> > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have > >> seen > >> > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > >> > > >> > For now and till then, > >> > JOHN > >> > >> I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the price -- > >> well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely > >essential > >> to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > >> > >> Margaret > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> > Subscription Services: > >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 10:29:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Wed Nov 13 10:29:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> Message-ID: <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> Michael: I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! Anita Michael Schmidt wrote: >I saw the photos....I have sold hundreds of eggs...from South America, >Europe, Asia......these are not eggs. > >I was sent the pics last night > >they are some kind of septarian nodule. > >It would be the paleontological discovery of the last 100 years (in North >America) if hundreds of complete spherical non-crushed eggs were found at a >single site (in the USA or anywhere in the world for that matter!) > >it just doesn't happen....and these aren't eggs. > >It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't >often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for fossil >materials..... > >the dendritic iron oxide staining on some limestone fossils (what is that >material...can't remember the name...) is quite often mistaken for fern >fossils....... >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > >>Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have >> >missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking >for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up >with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be >something much more common. > >>Gene Hartstein >>Newark, DE >> >> >> >>In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael >> >Schmidt" writes: > >>>they are not eggs..... >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Margaret Malm" >>>To: >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs >>> >>> >>>> >>>>>I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he >>>>> >has > >>>a >>> >>>>>passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I >>>>> >have > >>>>seen >>>> >>>>>one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. >>>>> >>>>>For now and till then, >>>>>JOHN >>>>> >>>>I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the >>>> >price -- > >>>>well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely >>>> >>>essential >>> >>>>to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. >>>> >>>>Margaret >>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>>>Subscription Services: >>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>>Subscription Services: >>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>Subscription Services: >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 10:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 10:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <006f01c28b44$d21d7ca0$41ca94d1@remains> maybe they are some type of invert...it's really difficult to say there are concentric whorls like an ammonite ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be something much more common. > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > > > In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael Schmidt" writes: > > >they are not eggs..... > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Margaret Malm" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > >> > >> > >> > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he has > >a > >> > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I have > >> seen > >> > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > >> > > >> > For now and till then, > >> > JOHN > >> > >> I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the price -- > >> well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely > >essential > >> to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > >> > >> Margaret > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> > Subscription Services: > >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 10:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 10:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> Message-ID: <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... pyrolusite??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anita Westlake" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > Michael: > I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But > yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! > > Anita > > Michael Schmidt wrote: > > >I saw the photos....I have sold hundreds of eggs...from South America, > >Europe, Asia......these are not eggs. > > > >I was sent the pics last night > > > >they are some kind of septarian nodule. > > > >It would be the paleontological discovery of the last 100 years (in North > >America) if hundreds of complete spherical non-crushed eggs were found at a > >single site (in the USA or anywhere in the world for that matter!) > > > >it just doesn't happen....and these aren't eggs. > > > >It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't > >often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for fossil > >materials..... > > > >the dendritic iron oxide staining on some limestone fossils (what is that > >material...can't remember the name...) is quite often mistaken for fern > >fossils....... > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > >>Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have > >> > >missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking > >for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up > >with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be > >something much more common. > > > >>Gene Hartstein > >>Newark, DE > >> > >> > >> > >>In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael > >> > >Schmidt" writes: > > > >>>they are not eggs..... > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "Margaret Malm" > >>>To: > >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM > >>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>>>I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he > >>>>> > >has > > > >>>a > >>> > >>>>>passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I > >>>>> > >have > > > >>>>seen > >>>> > >>>>>one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > >>>>> > >>>>>For now and till then, > >>>>>JOHN > >>>>> > >>>>I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the > >>>> > >price -- > > > >>>>well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely > >>>> > >>>essential > >>> > >>>>to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > >>>> > >>>>Margaret > >>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>>>>Subscription Services: > >>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >>>>> > >>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>>>Subscription Services: > >>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >>>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>>Subscription Services: > >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >>Subscription Services: > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: dendrites (are not pyrolusite) References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> Message-ID: <001101c28b47$14945700$9406efd1@oemcomputer> Black dendrites are indeed usually misidentified as pyrolusite, but in fact they're other Mn minerals, and apparently never actually pyrolusite. Some university studied the mineralogy, can't remember the website but it's out there. A friend in Alaska collects unbelievable dendrites, hand-sized, perfect tree-like formations. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schmidt" To: Sent: November 13, 2002 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... > > pyrolusite??? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anita Westlake" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > Michael: > > I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But > > yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! > > > > Anita > > > > Michael Schmidt wrote: > > > > >I saw the photos....I have sold hundreds of eggs...from South America, > > >Europe, Asia......these are not eggs. > > > > > >I was sent the pics last night > > > > > >they are some kind of septarian nodule. > > > > > >It would be the paleontological discovery of the last 100 years (in North > > >America) if hundreds of complete spherical non-crushed eggs were found at > a > > >single site (in the USA or anywhere in the world for that matter!) > > > > > >it just doesn't happen....and these aren't eggs. > > > > > >It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't > > >often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for > fossil > > >materials..... > > > > > >the dendritic iron oxide staining on some limestone fossils (what is that > > >material...can't remember the name...) is quite often mistaken for fern > > >fossils....... > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: > > >To: > > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM > > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > > > > >>Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have > > >> > > >missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was > looking > > >for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up > > >with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be > > >something much more common. > > > > > >>Gene Hartstein > > >>Newark, DE > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > "Michael > > >> > > >Schmidt" writes: > > > > > >>>they are not eggs..... > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > >>>From: "Margaret Malm" > > >>>To: > > >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM > > >>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he > > >>>>> > > >has > > > > > >>>a > > >>> > > >>>>>passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I > > >>>>> > > >have > > > > > >>>>seen > > >>>> > > >>>>>one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > > >>>>> > > >>>>>For now and till then, > > >>>>>JOHN > > >>>>> > > >>>>I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the > > >>>> > > >price -- > > > > > >>>>well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely > > >>>> > > >>>essential > > >>> > > >>>>to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > > >>>> > > >>>>Margaret > > >>>> > > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >>>>>Subscription Services: > > >>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >>>>> > > >>>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >>>>Subscription Services: > > >>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >>>Subscription Services: > > >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >>> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >>Subscription Services: > > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >> > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >Subscription Services: > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Art Berggreen) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> Message-ID: <3DD2A34A.9D8A24D7@berggreen.org> Are you thinking of psilomelane perhaps? Art Michael Schmidt wrote: > > it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... > > pyrolusite??? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Anita Westlake" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > Michael: > > I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But > > yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:23:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:23:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2A34A.9D8A24D7@berggreen.org> Message-ID: <3DD2A5DF.1050806@emory.edu> According to Webster's 3rd College Edition (I'm at work, not near my geology stuff) it says that psilomelane is "essentially manganese oxide, commonly occurring in rounded, grapelike, black masses." So, either Webster is crazy, or it's not psilomelane (though I do have a dendritic specimen labeled as such.) Anita Art Berggreen wrote: >Are you thinking of psilomelane perhaps? > >Art > > >Michael Schmidt wrote: > >>it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... >> >>pyrolusite??? >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Anita Westlake" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM >>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs >> >>>Michael: >>> I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But >>>yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! >>> >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:28:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:28:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2A34A.9D8A24D7@berggreen.org> Message-ID: <002101c28b49$99fd8f40$5d5204d0@jim> There are a whole bunch of manganese oxide minerals- almost impossible to tell which one without analytical work on a given dendrite. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Art Berggreen To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > Are you thinking of psilomelane perhaps? > > Art > > > Michael Schmidt wrote: > > > > it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... > > > > pyrolusite??? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Anita Westlake" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > Michael: > > > I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But > > > yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:29:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:29:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain References: Message-ID: <002a01c28b4a$a34f01e0$313f27c4@horstspc> Hi John, A good friend of mine (not on this list) has done some good collecting in Spain some years ago. Contact Ashley Diack on ASHLEY_DIACK@MONDI.CO.ZA Trust that this will be of some help to you. Kind regards, Horst----- Original Message ----- From: "John P. Junkroski" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain > > My wife and I will be travelling in Southern Spain (Sevilla, Cordoba, > Granada) and would like to do some collecting, if possible. > > Other than the RioTinto mines, we are finding little or no information. > > Has anybody on this list collected in Spain? Any advice? Any suggestions for > sources of info? > > Thanks, > > John Junkroski > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <2F7FED84.0454231E.02180873@aol.com> Thanks, but I was hoping someone had the location of the photos so I could see for myself. No attachmets please, though, as I will not download these unless I'm sure what they are. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:37:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael Schmidt" writes: >maybe they are some type of invert...it's really difficult to say > >there are concentric whorls like an ammonite >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > >> Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have >missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking >for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up >with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be >something much more common. >> >> Gene Hartstein >> Newark, DE >> >> >> >> In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael >Schmidt" writes: >> >> >they are not eggs..... >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Margaret Malm" >> >To: >> >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM >> >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he >has >> >a >> >> > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I >have >> >> seen >> >> > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. >> >> > >> >> > For now and till then, >> >> > JOHN >> >> >> >> I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the >price -- >> >> well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely >> >essential >> >> to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. >> >> >> >> Margaret >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> >> > Subscription Services: >> >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> >> Subscription Services: >> >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> >Subscription Services: >> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:55:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:55:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <2F7FED84.0454231E.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <003b01c28b4e$8d369630$cfca94d1@remains> i can send you the pics if you like.....I was sent a zip file...no viruses...1 jpeg photo ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > Thanks, but I was hoping someone had the location of the photos so I could see for myself. No attachmets please, though, as I will not download these unless I'm sure what they are. > > Gene Hartstein > > > In a message dated 11/13/2002 1:37:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael Schmidt" writes: > > >maybe they are some type of invert...it's really difficult to say > > > >there are concentric whorls like an ammonite > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > >> Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have > >missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was looking > >for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up > >with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be > >something much more common. > >> > >> Gene Hartstein > >> Newark, DE > >> > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Michael > >Schmidt" writes: > >> > >> >they are not eggs..... > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: "Margaret Malm" > >> >To: > >> >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM > >> >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > >> > > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he > >has > >> >a > >> >> > passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I > >have > >> >> seen > >> >> > one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > >> >> > > >> >> > For now and till then, > >> >> > JOHN > >> >> > >> >> I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the > >price -- > >> >> well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely > >> >essential > >> >> to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > >> >> > >> >> Margaret > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> >> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> >> > Subscription Services: > >> >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> >> Subscription Services: > >> >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> >Subscription Services: > >> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 11:57:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 11:57:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <78A2E3F3.71693D98.02180873@aol.com> Years ago I used to get excited when people would tell me they had found a huge lot of something interesting. Don't any longer. In the last 20 years only a few of these have turned out to be real, and in every one of those cases the source was relaible and experienced AND the discovery was an extension of a known occurrance or a rediscovery of a lost one. Gene Hartstein >It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't >often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for fossil >materials From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 12:01:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 12:01:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <78A2E3F3.71693D98.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <007b01c28b4f$65a080d0$cfca94d1@remains> I know someone who was sent "dinosaur claws" by a woman who found them while out hiking....she was adamant they were dinosaur claws..... desiccated cat terds ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > Years ago I used to get excited when people would tell me they had found a huge lot of something interesting. Don't any longer. In the last 20 years only a few of these have turned out to be real, and in every one of those cases the source was relaible and experienced AND the discovery was an extension of a known occurrance or a rediscovery of a lost one. > > Gene Hartstein > > > >It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't > >often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for fossil > >materials > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 12:04:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Wed Nov 13 12:04:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> Message-ID: <3DD2A420.6000109@emory.edu> pyrolusite? -Anita Michael Schmidt wrote: >it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... > >pyrolusite??? >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Anita Westlake" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > >>Michael: >> I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But >>yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! >> >>Anita >> >>Michael Schmidt wrote: >> >>>I saw the photos....I have sold hundreds of eggs...from South America, >>>Europe, Asia......these are not eggs. >>> >>>I was sent the pics last night >>> >>>they are some kind of septarian nodule. >>> >>>It would be the paleontological discovery of the last 100 years (in North >>>America) if hundreds of complete spherical non-crushed eggs were found at >>> >a > >>>single site (in the USA or anywhere in the world for that matter!) >>> >>>it just doesn't happen....and these aren't eggs. >>> >>>It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't >>>often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for >>> >fossil > >>>materials..... >>> >>>the dendritic iron oxide staining on some limestone fossils (what is that >>>material...can't remember the name...) is quite often mistaken for fern >>>fossils....... >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: >>>To: >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs >>> >>> >>>>Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have >>>> >>>missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was >>> >looking > >>>for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come up >>>with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be >>>something much more common. >>> >>>>Gene Hartstein >>>>Newark, DE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>>> >"Michael > >>>Schmidt" writes: >>> >>>>>they are not eggs..... >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Margaret Malm" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs (he >>>>>>> >>>has >>> >>>>>a >>>>> >>>>>>>passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I >>>>>>> >>>have >>> >>>>>>seen >>>>>> >>>>>>>one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For now and till then, >>>>>>>JOHN >>>>>>> >>>>>>I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the >>>>>> >>>price -- >>> >>>>>>well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely >>>>>> >>>>>essential >>>>> >>>>>>to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. >>>>>> >>>>>>Margaret >>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>>>>>Subscription Services: >>>>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>>>>Subscription Services: >>>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>>>Subscription Services: >>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>>Subscription Services: >>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>Subscription Services: >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> >> >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 12:05:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 12:05:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <01A7F7D4.5A64672E.02180873@aol.com> Michael: Looks like John will send these to me so thanks for the offer. My curiosity has the better of me for now. If John does not come through, I'll be back with a request to send them. Gene From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 12:14:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 13 12:14:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs Message-ID: <76CB1587.620ADE65.02180873@aol.com> I have been shown fossilized bull hearts (Cucullaea gigantea), diamonds (quartz), brains (coral), eggs (concretions and ordinary round rocks) and more. In nearly every case the individual was adamant he or she had found something spectacular and extremely valuable. I always try to explain what the thing is and why it looks like something else, but some people are just bull headed. Then again ..... I am in possession of 2 meg teeth... neither is perfect and Meg theeth are not all that unusual .... until I tell you that they were collected in Puerto Rico. I collected one of them myself so when a fellow said he had the big tooth he'd found there I said let's see and I bought it. Gene Hartstein From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 12:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Wed Nov 13 12:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs References: <76CB1587.620ADE65.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <000e01c28b51$ad542560$cfca94d1@remains> I had (still have one) a couple of meg teeth from the Philippines.... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > I have been shown fossilized bull hearts (Cucullaea gigantea), diamonds (quartz), brains (coral), eggs (concretions and ordinary round rocks) and more. In nearly every case the individual was adamant he or she had found something spectacular and extremely valuable. I always try to explain what the thing is and why it looks like something else, but some people are just bull headed. > > Then again ..... I am in possession of 2 meg teeth... neither is perfect and Meg theeth are not all that unusual .... until I tell you that they were collected in Puerto Rico. I collected one of them myself so when a fellow said he had the big tooth he'd found there I said let's see and I bought it. > > Gene Hartstein > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 12:29:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Wed Nov 13 12:29:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] dendrites References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> <001101c28b47$14945700$9406efd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3DD2B895.28B2@rcn.com> Hi some of us in the Washington D.C. Area also collect dendrites. These dendrites sound interesting. I would like to contact your friend about these. GeorgiaO ___ ... --- ... ___ Tim Jokela wrote: > > Black dendrites are indeed usually misidentified as pyrolusite, but in fact > they're other Mn minerals, and apparently never actually pyrolusite. Some > university studied the mineralogy, can't remember the website but it's out > there. A friend in Alaska collects unbelievable dendrites, hand-sized, > perfect tree-like formations. > > Cheers, > > Tim Jokela Jr > tjokela@execulink.com > http://www.element51.com > http://www.ontariominerals.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Schmidt" > To: > Sent: November 13, 2002 1:51 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... > > > > pyrolusite??? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Anita Westlake" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > > > Michael: > > > I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But > > > yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! > > > > > > Anita > > > > > > Michael Schmidt wrote: > > > > > > >I saw the photos....I have sold hundreds of eggs...from South America, > > > >Europe, Asia......these are not eggs. > > > > > > > >I was sent the pics last night > > > > > > > >they are some kind of septarian nodule. > > > > > > > >It would be the paleontological discovery of the last 100 years (in > North > > > >America) if hundreds of complete spherical non-crushed eggs were found > at > > a > > > >single site (in the USA or anywhere in the world for that matter!) > > > > > > > >it just doesn't happen....and these aren't eggs. > > > > > > > >It's the same old story when it comes to fossils. For those that don't > > > >often see fossil materials, geological oddities can be mistaken for > > fossil > > > >materials..... > > > > > > > >the dendritic iron oxide staining on some limestone fossils (what is > that > > > >material...can't remember the name...) is quite often mistaken for fern > > > >fossils....... > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:57 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > > > > > > > > > >>Michael, how do you know whether they are or are not eggs? I must have > > > >> > > > >missed a post on a URL on the eggs, or a photo, or something. I was > > looking > > > >for one because I'm always sceptical when I hear that someone has come > up > > > >with a bunch of anything ususual. 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be > > > >something much more common. > > > > > > > >>Gene Hartstein > > > >>Newark, DE > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>In a message dated 11/13/2002 11:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > "Michael > > > >> > > > >Schmidt" writes: > > > > > > > >>>they are not eggs..... > > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>From: "Margaret Malm" > > > >>>To: > > > >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:30 AM > > > >>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>I have a friend that has come upon some Authenticated? Dino Eggs > (he > > > >>>>> > > > >has > > > > > > > >>>a > > > >>> > > > >>>>>passel of them) and is wondering if there is a market for them? I > > > >>>>> > > > >have > > > > > > > >>>>seen > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>one site DinoEggs.com that has prices that just seem exorbitant. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>For now and till then, > > > >>>>>JOHN > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>I would imagine the market would be mainly to collectors. and the > > > >>>> > > > >price -- > > > > > > > >>>>well, the price, like with everything else that is not absolutely > > > >>>> > > > >>>essential > > > >>> > > > >>>>to life, is -- what people are willing to pay. > > > >>>> > > > >>>>Margaret > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > > > >>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >>>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >>>>>Subscription Services: > > > >>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>_______________________________________________ > > > >>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >>>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >>>>Subscription Services: > > > >>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > > >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >>>Subscription Services: > > > >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >>> > > > >>_______________________________________________ > > > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >>Subscription Services: > > > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > >Subscription Services: > > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 14:37:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Wed Nov 13 14:37:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Northern VA Club Show Message-ID: <3DD2D678.1824@rcn.com> The Northern Virginia Mineral Club, Inc. INVITES YOU to their Annual Gem, Mineral & Fossil Show at George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia Student Union II Park in Lot F - Courtesy shuttle to and from the show. November 23rd .. 10 am to 6 pm. November 24th .. 10 am to 4 pm. Silent Auction. Over 21 dealers. Quality Gem, Mineral, Fossil, etc.. Demonstrations, Exhibits, Door prizes. Mini-Mines and Fossil Dig for kids. Quizzes. Great fluorescent display - with an additional SPECIAL! exhibit this year. Adults - $3.00 ($1.00 off with coupon) Senior Citizens - $2.00 Teens - $2.00 (ages 13-18) Children - FREE (age 12 and under) Scouts in Uniform - FREE George Mason University Students - FREE WITH ID. See you there.....:) From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 15:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John P. Junkroski) Date: Wed Nov 13 15:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain In-Reply-To: <002a01c28b4a$a34f01e0$313f27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "John P. Junkroski" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Collecting sites in Spain Horst, Thank you for the referral. I have contacted Ashley and hope to get a reply soon. Thanks again, John Junkroski From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 17:13:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Wed Nov 13 17:13:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geological Wonders of the World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20B53094-F76E-11D6-9B8C-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> I think someone in this thread mentioned getting amber in the Dominican Republic as something cool to do. Well, a college buddy of mine grew up & currently resides in the DR. He said that, as far as he knows, collecting places were long ago closed to the public. He also knows of no ways to get into a 'private' place. Does anybody have any more info regarding this subject? Thanks! Kris M From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 17:15:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Wed Nov 13 17:15:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dr. Clifford Frondel passed away Message-ID: <3DD2F984.B5FC0F1@att.net> I just received news that Dr. Clifford Frondel of Harvard University passed away Monday night. He was a legend in the field, known to many collectors as the succesor to Charles Palache as the dean of Franklin/Sterling Hill minerals. I am certain his list of accomplishments goes far beyond my knowledge of them. The mineral FRONDELITE was named in his honor, and I believe there is also a CLIFFORDITE in his name. While I never met him, I have met several who were taught by him or otherwise been inspired by him. We can only hope one more rises to take his place in the field. Don -- Join the /"\ ASCII Ribbon \ / Campaign against x HTML e-mail / \ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 13 20:00:24 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Nov 13 20:00:24 2002 Subject: OT: Re: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message References: Message-ID: <3DD31FB4.7F69@Tomaszewski.net> Chengi Kuo wrote: > > Reply-to: is not set to Rockhounds. > > And it has an attachment. > > Since I just posted, my name became known to whoever on the list is infected > with Bugbear and I got a 57.74K byte BugBear file in response. > > Jimmy Were you able to capture the source IP from the headers? IMHO, It is usually reliable. If you published it someone might recognize it as their own and be able to take action to secure their system. (If not, maybe my posting will trigger a BugBear to me and I can safely capture headers to track down our infected member). Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 01:08:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 01:08:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message References: <3DD31FB4.7F69@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <004b01c28bbe$98d46a60$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> Hi Kreigh and Jimmy, Tracking down an IP is very easy with these net-tools. Nothing to install, it's an online service. http://www.all-nettools.com/ Succes Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:06 AM Subject: OT: Re: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message | Chengi Kuo wrote: | > | > Reply-to: is not set to Rockhounds. | > | > And it has an attachment. | > | > Since I just posted, my name became known to whoever on the list is infected | > with Bugbear and I got a 57.74K byte BugBear file in response. | > | > Jimmy | | Were you able to capture the source IP from the headers? IMHO, It is | usually reliable. If you published it someone might recognize it as | their own and be able to take action to secure their system. | | (If not, maybe my posting will trigger a BugBear to me and I can safely | capture headers to track down our infected member). | | Kreigh | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 04:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Thu Nov 14 04:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" References: <76CB1587.620ADE65.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DD3957D.9020805@emory.edu> Speaking of bizarre bull hearts, brains, etc., I once unearthed a stalactite that looks EXACTLY like a part of the male anatomy. Size, shape, color, every detail was embarrassingly perfect. I showed it to a fellow student at the college I was attending, and she looked at me with awe and said "Do you think it came from a caveman?" I assured her that it did not, and tried to explain to her how it formed, but she wouldn't believe me. Anita FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: >I have been shown fossilized bull hearts (Cucullaea gigantea), diamonds (quartz), brains (coral), eggs (concretions and ordinary round rocks) and more. In nearly every case the individual was adamant he or she had found something spectacular and extremely valuable. I always try to explain what the thing is and why it looks like something else, but some people are just bull headed. > >Then again ..... I am in possession of 2 meg teeth... neither is perfect and Meg theeth are not all that unusual .... until I tell you that they were collected in Puerto Rico. I collected one of them myself so when a fellow said he had the big tooth he'd found there I said let's see and I bought it. > >Gene Hartstein >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 04:36:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 04:36:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: dendrites (are not pyrolusite) Message-ID: <14e.175b44e2.2b04f26f@aol.com> The reference is Potter, R. M. and Rossman, G. R., 1979, Mineralogy of manganese dendrites and coatings, American Mineralogist, v. 64, p. 1219-1226. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 04:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 04:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <1ab.beb19f8.2b04f4bd@aol.com> Dear John, Gainesite sold at auction five years ago. There were about 20 mg pure fragments in a capsule. The price was $200. Pro-rated this is $20 a mg or $600,000 per troy ounce! Actually, fine gold specimens generally sell for a very low price. It seems if dealers began to charge for the pure amount of a mineral on a specimen the cost would be staggering. An "average" garnet on matrix could easily be only $30, a price generally agreed to be fair by those who saw it would come out, pro-rated, to $1000 per troy ounce. I think it might be interesting to have people calculate their own costs of specimens and realize that gold is really a bargain. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 06:02:04 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Thu Nov 14 06:02:04 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" References: <76CB1587.620ADE65.02180873@aol.com> <3DD3957D.9020805@emory.edu> Message-ID: <00bd01c28be6$72549540$c0c594d1@remains> size? some of us have bigger stalactites than others, you know..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anita Westlake" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:22 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" > Speaking of bizarre bull hearts, brains, etc., I once unearthed a > stalactite that looks EXACTLY like a part of the male anatomy. Size, > shape, color, every detail was embarrassingly perfect. I showed it to a > fellow student at the college I was attending, and she looked at me with > awe and said "Do you think it came from a caveman?" I assured her that > it did not, and tried to explain to her how it formed, but she wouldn't > believe me. > > Anita > > FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: > > >I have been shown fossilized bull hearts (Cucullaea gigantea), diamonds (quartz), brains (coral), eggs (concretions and ordinary round rocks) and more. In nearly every case the individual was adamant he or she had found something spectacular and extremely valuable. I always try to explain what the thing is and why it looks like something else, but some people are just bull headed. > > > >Then again ..... I am in possession of 2 meg teeth... neither is perfect and Meg theeth are not all that unusual .... until I tell you that they were collected in Puerto Rico. I collected one of them myself so when a fellow said he had the big tooth he'd found there I said let's see and I bought it. > > > >Gene Hartstein > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 06:33:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 06:33:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021114143154.PHHQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc17> It gets better! Consider copper: it is trading now at about 0.77 USD per pound; however, a finely crystallized specimen from Arizona or Michigan, weighing several ounces, can sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars! That is why I shake my head when I hear of copper mines closing. Mine them for specimens dudes! (I'm sure someone will reply to tell me why that is not feasible, but Fred Pough suggests a similar approach in his field guide). Not only pure copper, but the various oxides and carbonates of copper are highly collectible and sell for far more per unit volume than anyone could ever hope to get for the refined copper content. Fascinating. Then let's talk about calcite specimens--calcium carbonate, as a molecule, ranks among one of the most boring compounds in the universe. My local Home Depot sells bags of various CaCO3 compounds for cents on the pound. Yet some of the rarer calcite specimens can average many dollars per ounce! We could go on and on. It is amazing. The same thing occurs with currency collecting, too: an uncirculated Morgan Silver Dollar is worth about $150 now (maybe; I haven't checked lately; but you get the idea), yet to the U.S. Treasury, it is worth one dollar, and if I go to the store I can buy exactly one dollar's worth of goods with it. (For our non-U.S. friends, be advised that the U.S. never retires its federal currency, so a $10 note from 1790 is still legal tender as $10 for all debts, public and private). Is this a stimulating life, or what? Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 06:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Thu Nov 14 06:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114143154.PHHQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc17> Message-ID: <00d501c28bed$51b4d230$c0c594d1@remains> what about wire silver? great specimens from Norway are routinely worth thousands, containing little more than a couple of grams of actual silver.... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > It gets better! Consider copper: it is trading now at about 0.77 USD per > pound; however, a finely crystallized specimen from Arizona or Michigan, > weighing several ounces, can sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars! That > is why I shake my head when I hear of copper mines closing. Mine them for > specimens dudes! (I'm sure someone will reply to tell me why that is not > feasible, but Fred Pough suggests a similar approach in his field guide). Not > only pure copper, but the various oxides and carbonates of copper are highly > collectible and sell for far more per unit volume than anyone could ever hope > to get for the refined copper content. Fascinating. > > Then let's talk about calcite specimens--calcium carbonate, as a molecule, > ranks among one of the most boring compounds in the universe. My local Home > Depot sells bags of various CaCO3 compounds for cents on the pound. Yet some > of the rarer calcite specimens can average many dollars per ounce! > > We could go on and on. It is amazing. The same thing occurs with currency > collecting, too: an uncirculated Morgan Silver Dollar is worth about $150 now > (maybe; I haven't checked lately; but you get the idea), yet to the U.S. > Treasury, it is worth one dollar, and if I go to the store I can buy exactly > one dollar's worth of goods with it. (For our non-U.S. friends, be advised > that the U.S. never retires its federal currency, so a $10 note from 1790 is > still legal tender as $10 for all debts, public and private). > > Is this a stimulating life, or what? > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 07:24:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 07:24:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <30.30d2de89.2b0519c5@aol.com> As an aside to your comment about paper money. There is getting to be a reluctance to accept the previous design of $100 bills, and other denominations, in foreign countries as they perceive the design change as a demonetization. Many countries have been subject to such demonetization's. They issue new money and the old money expires on a certain date. Mostly designed to root out hoarders, speculators, etc., but now designed to root out terrorist monetary supplies. There is one such demonetization coming up for Afghanistan in January. (By the way, there is a caution about money which has been issued in this country. All of the Federal issues of money are still good, but there was a time in the nineteenth century when local banks could issue their own money and when particular banks went broke (broken bank notes), their money became valueless. [My favorite was the Bank of Red Bank, NJ.] The Federal government did demonetize "old" stamps during the Civil War and issued new stamps, when Federal Post Offices were within the Confederate States during cessation. US stamps were redeemable for cash until the 1960's. Remember the old ads accepting cash, checks, or stamps?) Sorry to be off-topic, but money is used to purchase specimens. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 08:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 08:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114143154.PHHQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc17> <00d501c28bed$51b4d230$c0c594d1@remains> Message-ID: <009701c28bfb$4592dca0$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> | what about wire silver? great specimens from Norway are routinely worth | thousands, No, they are not... Some people say they are but that doesn't make it so! There is something like "a reasonable price", whatever the free market adepts may say... As mineral dealers up their prices, the wealthy "investors" step in and "muscle out" the modal collector. Prices are rising and soon the average collector will have to collect pebbles. I don't think that applying the laws of supply and demand to their full extend to our hobby is a good evolution! Sure, a rare mineral should cost more than a common one and perhaps a certain locality yields better combinations of minerals. Still, I think collectors should get a grip on themselves and refuse to pay exorbitant prices. I realize that one cannot point the finger at only the dealers or only the "investors"... We do it to ourselves mostly... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schmidt" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | what about wire silver? great specimens from Norway are routinely worth | thousands, containing little more than a couple of grams of actual | silver.... | ----- Original Message ----- | From: | To: | Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:31 AM | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | | | > | > It gets better! Consider copper: it is trading now at about 0.77 USD per | > pound; however, a finely crystallized specimen from Arizona or Michigan, | > weighing several ounces, can sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars! | That | > is why I shake my head when I hear of copper mines closing. Mine them for | > specimens dudes! (I'm sure someone will reply to tell me why that is not | > feasible, but Fred Pough suggests a similar approach in his field guide). | Not | > only pure copper, but the various oxides and carbonates of copper are | highly | > collectible and sell for far more per unit volume than anyone could ever | hope | > to get for the refined copper content. Fascinating. | > | > Then let's talk about calcite specimens--calcium carbonate, as a molecule, | > ranks among one of the most boring compounds in the universe. My local | Home | > Depot sells bags of various CaCO3 compounds for cents on the pound. Yet | some | > of the rarer calcite specimens can average many dollars per ounce! | > | > We could go on and on. It is amazing. The same thing occurs with | currency | > collecting, too: an uncirculated Morgan Silver Dollar is worth about $150 | now | > (maybe; I haven't checked lately; but you get the idea), yet to the U.S. | > Treasury, it is worth one dollar, and if I go to the store I can buy | exactly | > one dollar's worth of goods with it. (For our non-U.S. friends, be | advised | > that the U.S. never retires its federal currency, so a $10 note from 1790 | is | > still legal tender as $10 for all debts, public and private). | > | > Is this a stimulating life, or what? | > | > Don | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 08:57:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Thu Nov 14 08:57:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114143154.PHHQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc17> <00d501c28bed$51b4d230$c0c594d1@remains> <009701c28bfb$4592dca0$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <004301c28bfe$c19a8ac0$37cb94d1@remains> just because some people (me included) feel that a few thousand dollars for a specimen of wire silver is very excessive doesn't mean that some people don't think there is nothing wrong with the price. I personally see several (more than 5) specimens each year sold for more than $2500 USD each.... they are "worth" what someone will pay for them. Hobby has nothing to do with it. Mineral sales is a business like any other....you are not going to sell a specimen for $250 that EVERYONE else is selling for $2500........especially if you paid $1250 for it from a wholesaler. if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk about what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with some dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these minerals, and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. but, in the end, the market is the market......this is what the specimens are WORTH...fair or not. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axel Emmermann" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > | what about wire silver? great specimens from Norway are routinely worth > | thousands, > > No, they are not... > Some people say they are but that doesn't make it so! > There is something like "a reasonable price", whatever the free market > adepts may say... > > As mineral dealers up their prices, the wealthy "investors" step in and > "muscle out" the modal collector. > Prices are rising and soon the average collector will have to collect > pebbles. > I don't think that applying the laws of supply and demand to their full > extend to our hobby is a good evolution! > Sure, a rare mineral should cost more than a common one and perhaps a > certain locality yields better combinations of minerals. Still, I think > collectors should get a grip on themselves and refuse to pay exorbitant > prices. I realize that one cannot point the finger at only the dealers or > only the "investors"... We do it to ourselves mostly... > > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Schmidt" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > > | what about wire silver? great specimens from Norway are routinely worth > | thousands, containing little more than a couple of grams of actual > | silver.... > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: > | To: > | Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 7:31 AM > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > | > | > | > > | > It gets better! Consider copper: it is trading now at about 0.77 USD > per > | > pound; however, a finely crystallized specimen from Arizona or Michigan, > | > weighing several ounces, can sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars! > | That > | > is why I shake my head when I hear of copper mines closing. Mine them > for > | > specimens dudes! (I'm sure someone will reply to tell me why that is not > | > feasible, but Fred Pough suggests a similar approach in his field > guide). > | Not > | > only pure copper, but the various oxides and carbonates of copper are > | highly > | > collectible and sell for far more per unit volume than anyone could ever > | hope > | > to get for the refined copper content. Fascinating. > | > > | > Then let's talk about calcite specimens--calcium carbonate, as a > molecule, > | > ranks among one of the most boring compounds in the universe. My local > | Home > | > Depot sells bags of various CaCO3 compounds for cents on the pound. Yet > | some > | > of the rarer calcite specimens can average many dollars per ounce! > | > > | > We could go on and on. It is amazing. The same thing occurs with > | currency > | > collecting, too: an uncirculated Morgan Silver Dollar is worth about > $150 > | now > | > (maybe; I haven't checked lately; but you get the idea), yet to the U.S. > | > Treasury, it is worth one dollar, and if I go to the store I can buy > | exactly > | > one dollar's worth of goods with it. (For our non-U.S. friends, be > | advised > | > that the U.S. never retires its federal currency, so a $10 note from > 1790 > | is > | > still legal tender as $10 for all debts, public and private). > | > > | > Is this a stimulating life, or what? > | > > | > Don > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > Subscription Services: > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:05:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:05:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <004301c28bfe$c19a8ac0$37cb94d1@remains> Message-ID: My favorite "touchie-feelie" markup was for a 2" cleavage rhomb of optical calcite (dinged no less!) for $75 in the gift shop at the international terminal at Kennedy in NYC. Gary Catspaw Minerals Suppliers of MasMils/PLUS www.catspaw-minerals.com > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Michael Schmidt > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:56 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > > > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you > talk about > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come > up with some > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these minerals, > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:08:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:08:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" In-Reply-To: <3DD3957D.9020805@emory.edu> Message-ID: <80EA5339-F7F3-11D6-A77C-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> SIZE MATTERS how big was this 'fella?' KM On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 04:22 AM, Anita Westlake wrote: > I once unearthed a stalactite that looks EXACTLY like a part of the > male anatomy. Size, shape, color, every detail was embarrassingly > perfect. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:11:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:11:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: I saw an English dealer, at Tucson about ten years ago, who had a wire silver specimen from Kongsberg which had a thick intergrowth of wires. It weighed about 5 kilos. He was asking $35,000. That works out to just $7 per gram. It was a beautiful specimen and sold instantly. Many who saw it wanted to purchase it after the first customer bought it. I would say it was underpriced. To be sure, I don't routinely purchase specimens in this range, but that doesn't mean that he should have offered it to me for $10, just because that would be the price I would prefer to pay. Some specimens are never going to be low priced even though they are cheaply priced. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:20:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:20:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <004301c28bfe$c19a8ac0$37cb94d1@remains> Message-ID: <2B39ACB5-F7F5-11D6-A77C-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> some of his really bugs me: the popularity of a mineral rising because of its metaphysical aspects or someone trying to tell me that garnets aid bloodflow, quarts aids in memory, etc. Well ya know what: I have a dinosaur tooth (i really do) and it keeps away dinosaurs. No sh*t! I havent seen a dinosaur in ages!! Just my 2¢ KM On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 08:56 AM, Michael Schmidt wrote: > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk > about > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have > taken > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up > with some > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these > minerals, > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:25:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:25:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you there; mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really killed prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to start collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any reasoable size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if that's why your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price those accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those normally." He doesn't like it when I come in. I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair market price from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by the nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the road, I chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow Supply Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the Czechs. If I were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a potential customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll show you where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free market works both ways. Don > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk about > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with some > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these minerals, > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:38:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:38:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> Message-ID: <006201c28c04$a0cfdc90$37cb94d1@remains> there are certain books out there...one by an author whose name I won't mention.....who create this situation. this person writes books and comes up with all of this crap...then the healy feely mineral world prices their specimens according to the wonderful powers these minerals are said to have (by her), and make a fortune. this person even talks about making "elixirs" out of certain minerals for whatever curative powers...minerals like realgar and orpiment......... I have on more than one occasion told someone that listening to this twit and making an elixir out of arsenic probably isn't the smartest thing to do..... one company I know of even went so far as to buy up HUGE amounts of a certain mineral (possibly a few different ones- I quit really paying attention), nail down suppliers of this material, get the material for like $10 per pound because they are buying HUGE volumes, and then write it up in their book as the cure all, heal everything wrong with you, attune you to the entire universe, be all to end all mineral of the millennium.............and then sell the stuff for $25 per gram. sounds ethical to me! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you there; > mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really killed > prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to start > collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any reasoable > size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if that's why > your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price those > accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those normally." > He doesn't like it when I come in. > > I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair market price > from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an > amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by the > nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the road, I > chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow Supply > Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the Czechs. If I > were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a potential > customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll show you > where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free market works > both ways. > > Don > > > > > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk about > > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken > > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with some > > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these minerals, > > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:47:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:47:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: Interesting thread, this discussion of mineral prices versus the worth of the raw material. But let me take a contrarian approach for a moment: acknowledging that mineral prices have gone up enormously in the past two decades, and that many of us (me included) note that we are rapidly being priced out of our own hobby, I still thank my lucky stars that minerals are so CHEAP. Let me make a comparison for a moment. Currently there are only 36 works attributed to Johannes Vermeer, one of the Dutch Masters. His oil paintings are thus fabulously rare, and if one ever came up for sale you'd better have tens of millions of dollars in your pocket if you want to acquire it. Currently from Franklin, New Jersey, there are probably less than three dozen radiating margarosanite specimens known. These are the creme de la creme of fluorescent minerals, something that is on nearly every fluorescent-mineral collector's want list, yet a fine example might set you back only $8,000-$20,000. Why not ten or twenty million? Why not, indeed. Pick a mineral species, pick any of the thousands and thousands of fine specimens that many of you have seen over the years, and then think of how few of them have commanded prices in five figures. And how many have you seen that sold for more than a million USD? Any? Given that the rarity of superfine mineral specimens is comparable to that of artworks by famous artists, why should some of nature's finest creations go for orders of magnitude less money than the best works of art by a human creator? I've had this discussion with a number of my friends, and most agree that a potential exists for mineral prices to rise much, much higher than they are now, and that we might well be living in the "good old days". As more people become aware of the beauty of minerals, as the gap between rich and poor grows ever wider, and as more people have much more discretionary income than our parents or grandparents ever knew, mineral prices might well rise to levels we can now scarcely imagine. Enjoy the "cheap" prices now, while you still can. I can still buy a good mineral specimen for less than, say, a good railroad lantern, or a signed first edition of a Hemingway novel, or a bad oil painting by an unknown artist. That might not be true for long. Cheers- Earl Verbeek _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 09:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 09:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> Message-ID: <00be01c28c08$90d684c0$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> YES! (Oh, now you made me hurt a vocal cord...) but I'm afraid the Czech dealer will adapt his price the next time he flies in. It's also not really a dead horse judging from the reactions but there is another way of viewing this situation: I LOVE art. Therefore I regret the fact that Van Gogh's sunflowers were bought by some Japanese tycoon because now ONE man posesses something that should belong to all mankind to admire and enjoy. That is wrong, no matter what law has to say about it. I feel that, within reasonable bounderies, the same applies to the mineral wonders of nature. Anybody should be able to buy a mineral of moderate beauty for a moderate price. Museum pieces belong in a museum. Perhaps they may even bring more money to the dealer that sells them to that museum, I don't really care. The Hope diamond belongs in the Smithsonian, not in a private vault. The same goes for those unique pieces of silver or whatever. Keep smiling... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | | Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you there; | mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really killed | prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to start | collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any reasoable | size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if that's why | your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price those | accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those normally." | He doesn't like it when I come in. | | I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair market price | from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an | amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by the | nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the road, I | chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow Supply | Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the Czechs. If I | were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a potential | customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll show you | where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free market works | both ways. | | Don | | | | > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk about | > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken | > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with some | > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these minerals, | > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:02:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:02:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021114180138.OYXE4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> Sorry, but this sounds like socialism, or worse, to me. Who decides what should belong to "everyone" and what can "I" own? I don't want that power. And I sure don't want you to have that power! Just my thoughts! John Teague Knoxville, Tennessee > > From: "Axel Emmermann" > Date: 2002/11/14 Thu PM 01:06:33 EST > To: > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > YES! (Oh, now you made me hurt a vocal cord...) > but I'm afraid the Czech dealer will adapt his price the next time he flies > in. > It's also not really a dead horse judging from the reactions but there is > another way of viewing this situation: > > I LOVE art. Therefore I regret the fact that Van Gogh's sunflowers were > bought by some Japanese tycoon because now ONE man posesses something that > should belong to all mankind to admire and enjoy. That is wrong, no matter > what law has to say about it. > I feel that, within reasonable bounderies, the same applies to the mineral > wonders of nature. Anybody should be able to buy a mineral of moderate > beauty for a moderate price. Museum pieces belong in a museum. Perhaps they > may even bring more money to the dealer that sells them to that museum, I > don't really care. > The Hope diamond belongs in the Smithsonian, not in a private vault. The > same goes for those unique pieces of silver or whatever. > > Keep smiling... > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:24 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > > | > | Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you > there; > | mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really > killed > | prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to start > | collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any > reasoable > | size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if that's > why > | your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price those > | accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those > normally." > | He doesn't like it when I come in. > | > | I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair market > price > | from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an > | amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by the > | nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the > road, I > | chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow > Supply > | Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the Czechs. > If I > | were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a > potential > | customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll show > you > | where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free market > works > | both ways. > | > | Don > | > | > | > | > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk > about > | > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken > | > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with > some > | > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these > minerals, > | > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:07:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (mysfit) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:07:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <006201c28c04$a0cfdc90$37cb94d1@remains> References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021114104640.04a3bf70@pop.mindspring.com> Sure it's ethical and legal...this is after all a capitalist society where companies frequently manipulate supply to fix prices. See energy companies....see DRAM manufacturers I find it a little hard to blame someone for making a buck off of gullible people. Better to go after the education system which doesn't provide an adequate education resulting in a large number of people who fall prey to charlatans and the latest craze. Or maybe it's just human nature to want easy 'magical' solutions to problems. Like a crystal to cure something or expecting whining about secondary effects from businesses making a buck to effect some change. People are often stupid, companies take advantage of it (look at politicians and the media for goodness sakes) there is nothing illegal about it and businesses aren't terribly concerned with ethics. What happened to discussions about rocks and lapidary here? I see as many pet peeve discussions (if not more) than actual topical ones. Back to wading through the chaff. At 10:38 AM 11/14/2002 -0700, you wrote: >there are certain books out there...one by an author whose name I won't >mention.....who create this situation. > >this person writes books and comes up with all of this crap...then the healy >feely mineral world prices their specimens according to the wonderful powers >these minerals are said to have (by her), and make a fortune. > >this person even talks about making "elixirs" out of certain minerals for >whatever curative powers...minerals like realgar and orpiment......... > >I have on more than one occasion told someone that listening to this twit >and making an elixir out of arsenic probably isn't the smartest thing to >do..... > >one company I know of even went so far as to buy up HUGE amounts of a >certain mineral (possibly a few different ones- I quit really paying >attention), nail down suppliers of this material, get the material for like >$10 per pound because they are buying HUGE volumes, and then write it up in >their book as the cure all, heal everything wrong with you, attune you to >the entire universe, be all to end all mineral of the >millennium.............and then sell the stuff for $25 per gram. > >sounds ethical to me! >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:24 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > > > > > Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you >there; > > mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really >killed > > prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to start > > collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any >reasoable > > size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if that's >why > > your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price those > > accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those >normally." > > He doesn't like it when I come in. > > > > I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair market >price > > from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an > > amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by the > > nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the >road, I > > chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow >Supply > > Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the Czechs. >If I > > were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a >potential > > customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll show >you > > where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free market >works > > both ways. > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk >about > > > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken > > > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with >some > > > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these >minerals, > > > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:12:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs In-Reply-To: <3DD2A5DF.1050806@emory.edu> References: <30091537.4B68DC55.02180873@aol.com> <005b01c28b41$efbd4950$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2992B.3020509@emory.edu> <007701c28b45$add46f60$41ca94d1@remains> <3DD2A34A.9D8A24D7@berggreen.org> Message-ID: Hi Anita, One has to be careful in using a dictionary for a description of a mineral. The most common form of psilomelane is probably as Webster describes it, but most minerals occur in many different habits. Dendrites typically form in cracks (opening thin in one dimenstion) where the a dendritic form is common for any mineral forming in such a cavity. As Tim J. pointed out, most dendrites are not pyrolusite, they are typically romanechite or other Mn oxide. Psilomelane is a common term used, it is not a mineral, but one of those catch-all mineral "names" we use when we think the mineral material is a manganese oxide, but obviously don't know what it is. Webster, unfortunately, doesn't make this distinction. Lanny >According to Webster's 3rd College Edition (I'm at work, not near my >geology stuff) it says that psilomelane is "essentially manganese oxide, >commonly occurring in rounded, grapelike, black masses." So, either >Webster is crazy, or it's not psilomelane (though I do have a dendritic >specimen labeled as such.) >Anita > >Art Berggreen wrote: > >>Are you thinking of psilomelane perhaps? >> >>Art >> >> >>Michael Schmidt wrote: >> >>>it is...but there is actually a name for the mineral...... >>> >>>pyrolusite??? >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Anita Westlake" >>>To: >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:25 AM >>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dino Eggs >>> >>>>Michael: >>>> I think that "dentritic iron oxide staining" is really manganese. But >>>>yes, you're right: it aint fern fossils! >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> Message-ID: <000801c28c0a$38d46380$5105efd1@oemcomputer> > Now a poor kid who wants to start > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any reasoable > size or quality. -DH Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" References: <76CB1587.620ADE65.02180873@aol.com> <3DD3957D.9020805@emory.edu> <00bd01c28be6$72549540$c0c594d1@remains> Message-ID: <3DD3E827.1090003@emory.edu> I knew that "size" was bound to get a comment! I only meant that it wasn't a soda straw or a large flow stone, but more in the range of human proportions. :-[ Now I think I'll quit while I'm a-head. ;-) Anita Michael Schmidt wrote: >size? > >some of us have bigger stalactites than others, you know..... >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Anita Westlake" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:22 AM >Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" > > >>Speaking of bizarre bull hearts, brains, etc., I once unearthed a >>stalactite that looks EXACTLY like a part of the male anatomy. Size, >>shape, color, every detail was embarrassingly perfect. I showed it to a >>fellow student at the college I was attending, and she looked at me with >>awe and said "Do you think it came from a caveman?" I assured her that >>it did not, and tried to explain to her how it formed, but she wouldn't >>believe me. >> >>Anita >> >>FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: >> >>>I have been shown fossilized bull hearts (Cucullaea gigantea), diamonds >>> >(quartz), brains (coral), eggs (concretions and ordinary round rocks) and >more. In nearly every case the individual was adamant he or she had found >something spectacular and extremely valuable. I always try to explain what >the thing is and why it looks like something else, but some people are just >bull headed. > >>>Then again ..... I am in possession of 2 meg teeth... neither is perfect >>> >and Meg theeth are not all that unusual .... until I tell you that they were >collected in Puerto Rico. I collected one of them myself so when a fellow >said he had the big tooth he'd found there I said let's see and I bought it. > >>>Gene Hartstein >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>>Subscription Services: >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:41:18 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:41:18 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Earl, Already back in the States ? I enjoyed your presence here in Antwerp ; sorry I had to go away in a hurry at the end of the eveninig. et al., There is a big difference between 36 works attributed to Johannes Vermeer and the 36 radiating margarosanite specimens from Franklin. There is absolutely no chance that ever nicer, better, bigger... works of J. Vermeer will be discovered. But on the other hand all of a sudden, e.g. tomorrow, somewhere in the Oeral Mountains 20 000 radiating margarosanite specimens might be found. In the early seventies there has been a period that for a boleite crystal without matrix you paid a capital, and later on I have bought such crystals for 2 USD a piece. It's not only a question af rarity, but also a question of fashion and taste of a certain generation. My left shoe is unique in the world, but nobody would give a dime (or eurocent) for it (unfortunately). If you can create a gap in the market, making lots of people believe that they need to possess something, the price can rise enormously. Someone in my neighbourhood said : put a few nice photo's of sh*t in the Mineralogical Record, and a week later lots of people will pay a fortune for a nice piece of sh*t. Remember the auction of the Freilich collection (no, I don't want to compare these specimens with s**t) ? Marketing !! There is big difference with cases where the price of a specimen is high, because the cost involved in the mining is very high, such as in the case of rhodochrosite crystals from the sweet Home mine. We experienced lately (in july) that the price for a few grams of moon rocks can be much higher than for half a kilo Vermeer... ;>)) It's also the people's phantasy that plays a role... they want to have what is unreachable, what seems to be unique (except for my left shoe), what others don't have Anyway, mineral collecting is a very risky investment because the gap in the market that is needed to make money, disappears and re-appears sinusoidally... Greetings, and have fun with your hobby (that's my top priority in my hobby anyway !), Rik Dillen -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of earl verbeek Sent: 14 November, 2002 6:47 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold Interesting thread, this discussion of mineral prices versus the worth of the raw material. But let me take a contrarian approach for a moment: acknowledging that mineral prices have gone up enormously in the past two decades, and that many of us (me included) note that we are rapidly being priced out of our own hobby, I still thank my lucky stars that minerals are so CHEAP. Let me make a comparison for a moment. Currently there are only 36 works attributed to Johannes Vermeer, one of the Dutch Masters. His oil paintings are thus fabulously rare, and if one ever came up for sale you'd better have tens of millions of dollars in your pocket if you want to acquire it. Currently from Franklin, New Jersey, there are probably less than three dozen radiating margarosanite specimens known. These are the creme de la creme of fluorescent minerals, something that is on nearly every fluorescent-mineral collector's want list, yet a fine example might set you back only $8,000-$20,000. Why not ten or twenty million? Why not, indeed. Pick a mineral species, pick any of the thousands and thousands of fine specimens that many of you have seen over the years, and then think of how few of them have commanded prices in five figures. And how many have you seen that sold for more than a million USD? Any? Given that the rarity of superfine mineral specimens is comparable to that of artworks by famous artists, why should some of nature's finest creations go for orders of magnitude less money than the best works of art by a human creator? I've had this discussion with a number of my friends, and most agree that a potential exists for mineral prices to rise much, much higher than they are now, and that we might well be living in the "good old days". As more people become aware of the beauty of minerals, as the gap between rich and poor grows ever wider, and as more people have much more discretionary income than our parents or grandparents ever knew, mineral prices might well rise to levels we can now scarcely imagine. Enjoy the "cheap" prices now, while you still can. I can still buy a good mineral specimen for less than, say, a good railroad lantern, or a signed first edition of a Hemingway novel, or a bad oil painting by an unknown artist. That might not be true for long. Cheers- Earl Verbeek _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 10:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake) Date: Thu Nov 14 10:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" References: <80EA5339-F7F3-11D6-A77C-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> Message-ID: <3DD3EE87.8030600@emory.edu> Okay, okay. Since you folks won't rest until I tell you this, here goes: the stalactite was almost 8 inches long. That's about average isn't it? ;-) (I mean, for a stalactite...) Kris Murray wrote: > SIZE MATTERS > how big was this 'fella?' > KM > On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 04:22 AM, Anita Westlake wrote: > >> I once unearthed a stalactite that looks EXACTLY like a part of the >> male anatomy. Size, shape, color, every detail was embarrassingly >> perfect. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 11:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Thu Nov 14 11:12:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> <000801c28c0a$38d46380$5105efd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3DD3F524.8E9B0D9D@earthlink.net> Having moved to northern Arizona from Arkansas several years ago, I had to be picked up off the floor (so to speak lol) when I saw the crystals and their prices in the Sedona area. My former yard rocks took on a whole new value for me (just kidding!). In a store in the uptown mystical area of Sedona, I saw your basic little 2 x 2 ziplock with a small broken crystal -- that was selling for $7 because it had been cleansed in the 'vortex of Bell Rock'.......Arkansas mud on it and all! ain't marketing tactics an education!! Teresa O Tim Jokela wrote: > > > Now a poor kid who wants to start > > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any > reasoable > > size or quality. -DH > > Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, > you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid > of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. > > Cheers, > > Tim Jokela Jr > tjokela@execulink.com > http://www.element51.com > http://www.ontariominerals.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 11:13:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Thu Nov 14 11:13:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bizarre "Fossils" References: <80EA5339-F7F3-11D6-A77C-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> <3DD3EE87.8030600@emory.edu> Message-ID: <3DD3F57F.77183079@earthlink.net> Anita, as women we couldn't possibly measure the size correctly....I've always been told thats why women can't measure. T Anita Westlake wrote: > > Okay, okay. Since you folks won't rest until I tell you this, here goes: > the stalactite was almost 8 inches long. That's about average isn't it? > ;-) (I mean, for a stalactite...) > > Kris Murray wrote: > > > SIZE MATTERS > > how big was this 'fella?' > > KM > > On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 04:22 AM, Anita Westlake wrote: > > > >> I once unearthed a stalactite that looks EXACTLY like a part of the > >> male anatomy. Size, shape, color, every detail was embarrassingly > >> perfect. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 11:16:12 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Thu Nov 14 11:16:12 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodeve References: <001201c289d2$96701320$1b507ad9@cp282677a> <001f01c28a9f$20a73f60$2bb39fc3@RW> <00a301c28aea$2897e9e0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Message-ID: <000501c28c11$f63200c0$083f27c4@horstspc> Hi Frank, There is actually a group in Switzerland, called something like "Friends of the Binntal" who are actually mining for specimens in this quarry. Some Swiss mineral collectors may be able to supply you with some more information, I had a short article published in the Newsletter of the International Federation of Micromount Societies (of which I am President at the moment). Regards, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank de wit" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lodeve > Ronald, > > great answer! thanx > I mailed robert vernet also with this question and he told me that also > Rabejac offers no possibilities for collecting minerals anymore > We plan to travel through the Cevennes in a week, so I might contact the > Schrander's, thanks for the tip. > btw: how do you like this one: http://www.minerapole.com/a_/f_rv18.html > > p.s. your right, I should escape from Holland also ;-) I'm thinking of > stopping with working and moving to Switzerland, Binntal for opening my own > little Lengenbach quarry, no, make that mine, that's nicer, and do some > specimen mining > anyone willing to join me? > > Cheers! > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ronald Werner" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lodeve > > > > Hi! > > > > I was there a couple of years ago, and visited only Mas d'Alary, because > my > > friends who live in France (they are Dutch too) told me there was no point > > visiting any of the other mines you mention. The French used a > vacuumcleaner > > to remove even the last tiny piece of radioactive material. So, have NO > > expectations regarding the radioactive stuff. But then again, Mas d'Alary > > offers a nice suite of microminerals: dickite, dolomite, calcite, pyrite, > > markasite, chalcopyrite, tetrahedrite and several others, nicely > > crystallized stuff. The dickite is the finest I have ever seen. > > > > As far as access is concerned, I cannot guarantee you ANYTHING at all. I > > have been told there is security, and they can be a bore, but we hadn't > any > > problems that time. Then again, we were together with a (authentic) French > > collecter, the not long ago deceased Alain Caubel, expert on the > > uranium-minerals from that area. We visited him at his home, which could > at > > it's best be described as a nuclear dumpsite: his entire house was full > with > > boxes with radioactive minerals! Best of all was the piece of 1-2 kg. pure > > uranium (the 238 variety, not dangerously radioactive, he said) he once > > managed to obtain from a processing plant. > > > > If you like, you could also try to contact Mr. Albert Schrander & Mrs. > > Marianne Hettinga, formerly Dutch, but they escaped in time. Now they are > > having a small business in the Cevennes, selling minerals and especially > > high quality micromounts. They might still have some of the radioactive > > minerals from those mines in stock. They once had many of the real > rarities, > > like the rabejacite etc. > > > > Their addres is: schrahett@wanadoo.fr > > > > Or snail mail: > > > > Albert & Marianne Schrander-Hettinga > > Villa Les Lys > > Rue de rossignol > > F - 30120 Bréau > > France > > > > They would probably welcome mail from anyone on the list who is interested > > in high quality micromounts. > > > > Good luck! > > > > Ronald Werner > > Postboks 2 > > 4733 Evje > > Norway > > > > PS Anyone on the list remembering me, and wondering why I haven't been > > active at all the past year or so?! That's because I didn't have a > telephone > > connection, and for practical reasons couldn't get one either. I moved > > yesterday, and now I DO have a connection! I won't have much time to enjoy > > it (work, work..), but I might at least try to help answering a few > > questions every now and then. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 11:17:07 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 11:17:07 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <1bf.144f85cf.2b05506b@aol.com> In a message dated 11/14/02 9:48:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, earlverbeek@hotmail.com writes: > > Enjoy the "cheap" prices now, while you still can. I can still buy a good > mineral specimen for less than, say, a good railroad lantern, or a signed > first edition of a Hemingway novel, or a bad oil painting by an unknown > artist. That might not be true for long. > You can buy a fully restored 1920s Buick or Olds cheaper than you can by a 57 Chevie too. Someday all the people who want 57 Chevies will be dead -- or to old to drive -- and value will begin to reflect scarcity. However, in today's market most guys with money to spend want a 57 Chevie. There are a lot of 57 Chevies around but the buyers outnumber the vehicles. Scarcity is still part of the equation but demand is an important part of the price structure. Those rare specimens will increase in value if mineral collecting increases in popularity. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 11:46:17 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Thu Nov 14 11:46:17 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: "There is absolutely no chance that ever nicer, better, bigger... works of J. Vermeer will be discovered." Well . . . couldn't we maybe dig him up and extract his DNA and clone him or something? Haaa, maybe 30 years from now we can have hundreds more Vermeers. (Yeah, I know it won't work, but it's a nice thought anyway. . . I sure like those paintings) "It's not only a question af rarity, but also a question of fashion and taste of a certain generation." Absolutely! Minerals were once more fashionable than they are now, and perhaps they will be again one day--look at the current rise in "decorator" minerals, for example. And it wouldn't take more than a few Freilichs to impose a new price structure on the mineral world, which is still sufficiently small that a small group of fat cats can really affect prices if they are aggressive collectors. That's exactly what's happened in the Franklin-Sterling Hill area, where a margarosanite I bought for $125 in 1985 would sell for $3,000 now. One doesn't need a societal shift in fashion to push mineral prices higher; a few determined collectors will do. And, as Axel noted, we do it to ourselves too, getting that specimen we can't resist for more than we thought it was worth. Cheers- Earl Verbeek _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021114201124.OZTT4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> Being a former street rodder (and street rod business owner), I love this one! A '57 Chevy, along with 32-24 Fords will ALWAYS be worth tons! Remember the term "classic"! They all are! I have a '34 three window coupe, Corvette engine, etc. The value of that car, though driven frequently, keeps going up. Just when I think I've heard the most outrageous price for one, I hear an even higher one. Now to minerals. I had a nice (as in GREAT) Tsumeb azurite that I had bought in Tucson a couple of years ago. I bought it for my personal collection, NOT to sell! But I wanted to get some milage out of it so I thought I would display it in my booth at a show. Hating "not for sale" signs, I tried to determine a "fair" price based on my wholesale cost. NOT wanting to sell it, I multiplied that price by 5 times (yes five times what I considered a "fair" retail price). Yep, you dealers know what happened. Two hours into the first day of the show ... "I want that azurite." No discussion of price. No asking for my "best" price. Just "I want that azurite." And it was cash ... no check, no credit card. What was that specimen worth (and it was a killer!)? Don't ask me. I did NOT want to sell it! But worse than the "not for sale" sign, I hate the dealer that then refuses to sell it at their listed price. Was I the bad guy here? I just wanted it to attract some attention! Got more than I expected! Both attention and money! But now I don't have the azurite. Never put a price on something you're not willing to accept. John Teague Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > From: Lapadary@aol.com > Date: 2002/11/14 Thu PM 02:15:55 EST > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > In a message dated 11/14/02 9:48:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, > earlverbeek@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > Enjoy the "cheap" prices now, while you still can. I can still buy a good > > mineral specimen for less than, say, a good railroad lantern, or a signed > > first edition of a Hemingway novel, or a bad oil painting by an unknown > > artist. That might not be true for long. > > > You can buy a fully restored 1920s Buick or Olds cheaper than you can by a 57 > Chevie too. Someday all the people who want 57 Chevies will be dead -- or to > old to drive -- and value will begin to reflect scarcity. However, in today's > market most guys with money to spend want a 57 Chevie. There are a lot of 57 > Chevies around but the buyers outnumber the vehicles. Scarcity is still part > of the equation but demand is an important part of the price structure. Those > rare specimens will increase in value if mineral collecting increases in > popularity. > > Grant > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:13:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:13:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodeve References: <001201c289d2$96701320$1b507ad9@cp282677a> <001f01c28a9f$20a73f60$2bb39fc3@RW> <00a301c28aea$2897e9e0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> <000501c28c11$f63200c0$083f27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <007001c28c1a$32763080$1b507ad9@cp282677a> yep, that's correct see: http://www.georama.ch/ cheers! Frank p.s.: I've written some articles on localities in the Binn valley and the Lengenbach quarry you can read/download them online see http://www.strahlen.org/ section 'Mineralogical literature', Binntal literature 1996-23.pdf 1996-115.pdf 1994-108.pdf etc ----- Original Message ----- From: "horstwindisch" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lodeve > Hi Frank, > > There is actually a group in Switzerland, called something like "Friends of > the Binntal" who are actually mining for specimens in this quarry. Some > Swiss mineral collectors may be able to supply you with some more > information, I had a short article published in the Newsletter of the > International Federation of Micromount Societies (of which I am President at > the moment). > > Regards, > Horst > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "frank de wit" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lodeve > > > > Ronald, > > > > great answer! thanx > > I mailed robert vernet also with this question and he told me that also > > Rabejac offers no possibilities for collecting minerals anymore > > We plan to travel through the Cevennes in a week, so I might contact the > > Schrander's, thanks for the tip. > > btw: how do you like this one: http://www.minerapole.com/a_/f_rv18.html > > > > p.s. your right, I should escape from Holland also ;-) I'm thinking of > > stopping with working and moving to Switzerland, Binntal for opening my > own > > little Lengenbach quarry, no, make that mine, that's nicer, and do some > > specimen mining > > anyone willing to join me? > > > > Cheers! > > Frank > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ronald Werner" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lodeve > > > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > I was there a couple of years ago, and visited only Mas d'Alary, because > > my > > > friends who live in France (they are Dutch too) told me there was no > point > > > visiting any of the other mines you mention. The French used a > > vacuumcleaner > > > to remove even the last tiny piece of radioactive material. So, have NO > > > expectations regarding the radioactive stuff. But then again, Mas > d'Alary > > > offers a nice suite of microminerals: dickite, dolomite, calcite, > pyrite, > > > markasite, chalcopyrite, tetrahedrite and several others, nicely > > > crystallized stuff. The dickite is the finest I have ever seen. > > > > > > As far as access is concerned, I cannot guarantee you ANYTHING at all. I > > > have been told there is security, and they can be a bore, but we hadn't > > any > > > problems that time. Then again, we were together with a (authentic) > French > > > collecter, the not long ago deceased Alain Caubel, expert on the > > > uranium-minerals from that area. We visited him at his home, which could > > at > > > it's best be described as a nuclear dumpsite: his entire house was full > > with > > > boxes with radioactive minerals! Best of all was the piece of 1-2 kg. > pure > > > uranium (the 238 variety, not dangerously radioactive, he said) he once > > > managed to obtain from a processing plant. > > > > > > If you like, you could also try to contact Mr. Albert Schrander & Mrs. > > > Marianne Hettinga, formerly Dutch, but they escaped in time. Now they > are > > > having a small business in the Cevennes, selling minerals and especially > > > high quality micromounts. They might still have some of the radioactive > > > minerals from those mines in stock. They once had many of the real > > rarities, > > > like the rabejacite etc. > > > > > > Their addres is: schrahett@wanadoo.fr > > > > > > Or snail mail: > > > > > > Albert & Marianne Schrander-Hettinga > > > Villa Les Lys > > > Rue de rossignol > > > F - 30120 Bréau > > > France > > > > > > They would probably welcome mail from anyone on the list who is > interested > > > in high quality micromounts. > > > > > > Good luck! > > > > > > Ronald Werner > > > Postboks 2 > > > 4733 Evje > > > Norway > > > > > > PS Anyone on the list remembering me, and wondering why I haven't been > > > active at all the past year or so?! That's because I didn't have a > > telephone > > > connection, and for practical reasons couldn't get one either. I moved > > > yesterday, and now I DO have a connection! I won't have much time to > enjoy > > > it (work, work..), but I might at least try to help answering a few > > > questions every now and then. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <00ca01c28c1c$1f730600$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> Hi Earl, I have to disagree... halas... ;-)))) If those margarosanite specimens are really that rare, I feel they should not be hidden in any private collection. Sure, they could make a collector proud but then only a select few could enjoy them but that's how I feel. You cite "a signed first edition of a Hemingway novel" as an example and I agree. That IS a collectible. High priced, no doubt. But what about the actual manuscript of the same novel? Shouldn't that be in a museum? Of course, I'm speaking in "absolutisms" here. The sensible thing to do is probably somewhere halfway the opposing idea's ;-)))) BTW, miss Belgium yet? Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "earl verbeek" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | | | Interesting thread, this discussion of mineral prices versus the worth of | the raw material. But let me take a contrarian approach for a moment: | acknowledging that mineral prices have gone up enormously in the past two | decades, and that many of us (me included) note that we are rapidly being | priced out of our own hobby, I still thank my lucky stars that minerals are | so CHEAP. | | Let me make a comparison for a moment. Currently there are only 36 works | attributed to Johannes Vermeer, one of the Dutch Masters. His oil paintings | are thus fabulously rare, and if one ever came up for sale you'd better have | tens of millions of dollars in your pocket if you want to acquire it. | | Currently from Franklin, New Jersey, there are probably less than three | dozen radiating margarosanite specimens known. These are the creme de la | creme of fluorescent minerals, something that is on nearly every | fluorescent-mineral collector's want list, yet a fine example might set you | back only $8,000-$20,000. Why not ten or twenty million? | | Why not, indeed. Pick a mineral species, pick any of the thousands and | thousands of fine specimens that many of you have seen over the years, and | then think of how few of them have commanded prices in five figures. And | how many have you seen that sold for more than a million USD? Any? Given | that the rarity of superfine mineral specimens is comparable to that of | artworks by famous artists, why should some of nature's finest creations go | for orders of magnitude less money than the best works of art by a human | creator? | | I've had this discussion with a number of my friends, and most agree that a | potential exists for mineral prices to rise much, much higher than they are | now, and that we might well be living in the "good old days". As more | people become aware of the beauty of minerals, as the gap between rich and | poor grows ever wider, and as more people have much more discretionary | income than our parents or grandparents ever knew, mineral prices might well | rise to levels we can now scarcely imagine. | | Enjoy the "cheap" prices now, while you still can. I can still buy a good | mineral specimen for less than, say, a good railroad lantern, or a signed | first edition of a Hemingway novel, or a bad oil painting by an unknown | artist. That might not be true for long. | | Cheers- Earl Verbeek | | | | _________________________________________________________________ | Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online | http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:28:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:28:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114180138.OYXE4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> Message-ID: <00dd01c28c1d$8a510160$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> | Sorry, but this sounds like socialism, or worse, to me. | Who decides what should belong to "everyone" and what can | "I" own? I don't want that power. And I sure don't want | you to have that power! I wouldn't have that kind of power if it was offered to me ;-))))) But if I had enough money to buy a Van Gogh I would do just that and then donate or loan it to a museum if only to make sure it didn't disappear in a personal collection. Call that socialism is you want, I would call it social behaviour. You're free to call is socialism though... what's in a name? | > | > From: "Axel Emmermann" | > Date: 2002/11/14 Thu PM 01:06:33 EST | > To: | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | > | > YES! (Oh, now you made me hurt a vocal cord...) | > but I'm afraid the Czech dealer will adapt his price the next time he flies | > in. | > It's also not really a dead horse judging from the reactions but there is | > another way of viewing this situation: | > | > I LOVE art. Therefore I regret the fact that Van Gogh's sunflowers were | > bought by some Japanese tycoon because now ONE man posesses something that | > should belong to all mankind to admire and enjoy. That is wrong, no matter | > what law has to say about it. | > I feel that, within reasonable bounderies, the same applies to the mineral | > wonders of nature. Anybody should be able to buy a mineral of moderate | > beauty for a moderate price. Museum pieces belong in a museum. Perhaps they | > may even bring more money to the dealer that sells them to that museum, I | > don't really care. | > The Hope diamond belongs in the Smithsonian, not in a private vault. The | > same goes for those unique pieces of silver or whatever. | > | > Keep smiling... | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: | > To: | > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:24 PM | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | > | > | > | | > | Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you | > there; | > | mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really | > killed | > | prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to start | > | collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any | > reasoable | > | size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if that's | > why | > | your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price those | > | accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those | > normally." | > | He doesn't like it when I come in. | > | | > | I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair market | > price | > | from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an | > | amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by the | > | nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the | > road, I | > | chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow | > Supply | > | Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the Czechs. | > If I | > | were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a | > potential | > | customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll show | > you | > | where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free market | > works | > | both ways. | > | | > | Don | > | | > | | > | | > | > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you talk | > about | > | > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have taken | > | > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up with | > some | > | > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these | > minerals, | > | > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:28:12 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:28:12 2002 Subject: When there's only one, was: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: Axel, Any specimen is unique. And rare or not, it can only be in one location. So, the argument can be extended to meaningless ends. "Why is it in the Belgium musuem?" The thing to do would be to figure out how to simulate the circumstance with manuscripts. How about 3-D photography? Or 3-D copying technology (this exists already). Jimmy On Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:26:32 +0100 Axel Emmermann wrote: > Hi Earl, > > I have to disagree... halas... ;-)))) > If those margarosanite specimens are really > that rare, I feel they should > not be hidden in any private collection. Sure, > they could make a collector > proud but then only a select few could enjoy > them but that's how I feel. > > You cite "a signed first edition of a Hemingway > novel" as an example and I > agree. That IS a collectible. High priced, no > doubt. But what about the > actual manuscript of the same novel? Shouldn't > that be in a museum? > > Of course, I'm speaking in "absolutisms" here. > The sensible thing to do is > probably somewhere halfway the opposing idea's > ;-)))) > > BTW, miss Belgium yet? > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische > Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "earl verbeek" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > > | > | > | Interesting thread, this discussion of > mineral prices versus the worth of > | the raw material. But let me take a > contrarian approach for a moment: > | acknowledging that mineral prices have gone > up enormously in the past two > | decades, and that many of us (me included) > note that we are rapidly being > | priced out of our own hobby, I still thank my > lucky stars that minerals > are > | so CHEAP. > | > | Let me make a comparison for a moment. > Currently there are only 36 works > | attributed to Johannes Vermeer, one of the > Dutch Masters. His oil > paintings > | are thus fabulously rare, and if one ever > came up for sale you'd better > have > | tens of millions of dollars in your pocket if > you want to acquire it. > | > | Currently from Franklin, New Jersey, there > are probably less than three > | dozen radiating margarosanite specimens > known. These are the creme de la > | creme of fluorescent minerals, something that > is on nearly every > | fluorescent-mineral collector's want list, > yet a fine example might set > you > | back only $8,000-$20,000. Why not ten or > twenty million? > | > | Why not, indeed. Pick a mineral species, > pick any of the thousands and > | thousands of fine specimens that many of you > have seen over the years, and > | then think of how few of them have commanded > prices in five figures. And > | how many have you seen that sold for more > than a million USD? Any? Given > | that the rarity of superfine mineral > specimens is comparable to that of > | artworks by famous artists, why should some > of nature's finest creations > go > | for orders of magnitude less money than the > best works of art by a human > | creator? > | > | I've had this discussion with a number of my > friends, and most agree that > a > | potential exists for mineral prices to rise > much, much higher than they > are > | now, and that we might well be living in the > "good old days". As more > | people become aware of the beauty of > minerals, as the gap between rich and > | poor grows ever wider, and as more people > have much more discretionary > | income than our parents or grandparents ever > knew, mineral prices might > well > | rise to levels we can now scarcely imagine. > | > | Enjoy the "cheap" prices now, while you still > can. I can still buy a good > | mineral specimen for less than, say, a good > railroad lantern, or a signed > | first edition of a Hemingway novel, or a bad > oil painting by an unknown > | artist. That might not be true for long. > | > | Cheers- > Earl Verbeek > | > | > | > | > _________________________________________________________________ > | Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan > Online > | > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > | > | > _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Hewitt) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> <000801c28c0a$38d46380$5105efd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <001801c28c1c$f611f4a0$0201a8c0@bigmama> I have been thinking of making a trip to Arkansas to collect quartz crystals. Since I live in New Jersey it would be a pretty major undertaking for me. Are there collecting sites that are worth that much traveling? Are they open year round? How would one go about about finding them other than by asking people on this list? Paul in New Jersey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Jokela" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > Now a poor kid who wants to start > > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any > reasoable > > size or quality. -DH > > Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, > you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid > of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. > > Cheers, > > Tim Jokela Jr > tjokela@execulink.com > http://www.element51.com > http://www.ontariominerals.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: >From: "Axel Emmermann" > >Hi Earl, > >I have to disagree... halas... ;-)))) >If those margarosanite specimens are really that rare, I feel they should >not be hidden in any private collection. Sure, they could make a collector >proud but then only a select few could enjoy them but that's how I feel. Nope, we don't disagree--I too feel they belong in a museum. I wasn't defending a collector's right to own such things, just discussing what amount of money it might take to buy one. To some, anything that is legal is also ethical. You and I would not share that view, I think. Over the years I have acquired some specimens that might be called "museum pieces", and most of those currently are on display in . . . a museum. My stated intent is to donate these pieces to one or more museums, also. I just don't feel it's ethical for a private collector to own world-class specimens unless he or she is prepared to share them with the world. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but I'm equally sure that you won't be among them! Cheers- Earl Verbeek _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 12:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 12:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021114203609.OZXL4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> I agree with that! What someone does with an item AFTER they buy it IS their business. Up to this point all I had read from various people is WHERE the item should be. If someone wants to sell or donate it to a museum, I think that is great. I just fell that it should be their choice, not someone else that dictates to them where it "should" be. John Teague Knoxville, Tennessee > > From: "Axel Emmermann" > Date: 2002/11/14 Thu PM 03:36:41 EST > To: > Subject: Re: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > > > | Sorry, but this sounds like socialism, or worse, to me. > > | Who decides what should belong to "everyone" and what can > | "I" own? I don't want that power. And I sure don't want > | you to have that power! > > I wouldn't have that kind of power if it was offered to me ;-))))) > But if I had enough money to buy a Van Gogh I would do just that and then > donate or loan it to a museum if only to make sure it didn't disappear in a > personal collection. > Call that socialism is you want, I would call it social behaviour. > > You're free to call is socialism though... what's in a name? > > | > > | > From: "Axel Emmermann" > | > Date: 2002/11/14 Thu PM 01:06:33 EST > | > To: > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > | > > | > YES! (Oh, now you made me hurt a vocal cord...) > | > but I'm afraid the Czech dealer will adapt his price the next time he > flies > | > in. > | > It's also not really a dead horse judging from the reactions but there > is > | > another way of viewing this situation: > | > > | > I LOVE art. Therefore I regret the fact that Van Gogh's sunflowers were > | > bought by some Japanese tycoon because now ONE man posesses something > that > | > should belong to all mankind to admire and enjoy. That is wrong, no > matter > | > what law has to say about it. > | > I feel that, within reasonable bounderies, the same applies to the > mineral > | > wonders of nature. Anybody should be able to buy a mineral of moderate > | > beauty for a moderate price. Museum pieces belong in a museum. Perhaps > they > | > may even bring more money to the dealer that sells them to that museum, > I > | > don't really care. > | > The Hope diamond belongs in the Smithsonian, not in a private vault. The > | > same goes for those unique pieces of silver or whatever. > | > > | > Keep smiling... > | > > | > Axel Emmermann > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > | > B-2640 Mortsel > | > Belgium > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > | > E-mail: > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > | > Visit our homepage: > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > | > Bezoek onze web-site: > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > | > My own web-site: > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: > | > To: > | > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:24 PM > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > | > > | > > | > | > | > | Oh yeah . . . not to beat this dead horse again, but I agree with you > | > there; > | > | mineral prices are bad enough as it is, but the "New Age" crowd really > | > killed > | > | prices for some very common minerals. Now a poor kid who wants to > start > | > | collecting can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any > | > reasoable > | > | size or quality. I told my local dealer, "Tell you what then, if > that's > | > why > | > | your prices are that way, make a case marked 'New Age,' and price > those > | > | accordingly, and another case marked 'Collectors,' and price those > | > normally." > | > | He doesn't like it when I come in. > | > | > | > | I remember buying some nice moldavite at Tuscon and paying a fair > market > | > price > | > | from some Czech dealers (as well as noting that, while moldavite is an > | > | amorphous substance, there was a great deal of cleavage on display by > the > | > | nubile young ladies the dealer had working for him). Walking down the > | > road, I > | > | chanced upon some enterprise like "Jimbo's Crystal Healing and Rainbow > | > Supply > | > | Emporium" that had moldavite for about 10 times the price of the > Czechs. > | > If I > | > | were really insufferable, I would have stood there and waited for a > | > potential > | > | customer to handle a piece, then tell them, "Hey, come with me, I'll > show > | > you > | > | where I can get some at one tenth the price." After all, the free > market > | > works > | > | both ways. > | > | > | > | Don > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > if you want to talk about how a market was wrecked, why don't you > talk > | > about > | > | > what the healy-feelies have done to the mineral market. They have > taken > | > | > minerals worth a few dollars, given the mystical names and come up > with > | > some > | > | > dog and pony show about the wonderful healing abilities of these > | > minerals, > | > | > and raised the market price (in some cases) over 1000%. > | > | _______________________________________________ > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > | Subscription Services: > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | > > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > Subscription Services: > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 13:09:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright) Date: Thu Nov 14 13:09:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> <000801c28c0a$38d46380$5105efd1@oemcomputer> <001801c28c1c$f611f4a0$0201a8c0@bigmama> Message-ID: <007601c28c21$d770d2a0$c0b2950c@mel> The Mount Ida , AR chamber of commerce maintains a web site about quartz collection there. It is year-round and the "mines" are dug by removing dirt with a backhoe and/or a bulldozer. Buy your material from Stanley's in Mt. Ida. In almost all mines/shops you'll find the prices very low compared to buying quartz elsewhere. You may surfacce hunt for small crystals and small clusters with little effort or hard rock mine for bigger stuff found in clay in vugs in the base rock. Your odds are almost 0 but a diamond hunt in Murphresboro (sp?) is lots of fun. Some mines are tourist traps and others really cater to rockhounds, so check around. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 13:37:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Thu Nov 14 13:37:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114172442.THPQ24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc15> <000801c28c0a$38d46380$5105efd1@oemcomputer> <001801c28c1c$f611f4a0$0201a8c0@bigmama> Message-ID: <00e701c28c26$71a85ba0$c703fea9@win98> Hi Paul, Our mine will probably be open all winter since we don't plan to do Tucson this year. As far as deciding if there are collecting sites worth that much traveling.....I doubt it. I wouldn't drive to NJ from Arkansas to dig crystals.... or any other minerals. Now for my 2 cents on the price of minerals.... About half of the crystals I sell on my web site go to rockhound collectors and the other half to the metaphysical (for lack of a better word) community. To be successful, I've had to learn to speak the language and identify the physical characteristics desired by both groups. It is more time consuming to grade out and look for the metaphysical characteristics in the crystals so I only sell them by the piece, rather than by the pound, and charge a little more them. My personal beliefs about rocks don't enter in to my business of selling rocks. My personal goal is to sell a quality product at a reasonable price with personalized service.....to anyone... and it works for me. Now for my 2 cents on "Mine Owner Woes".... A while back Jimmy wrote, " > So, in my mind, that miner chose a hobby, where he might make some money along the way. That to me is the same as someone getting hurt spelunking." I sooo with Jimmy was right.....but MSHA law states that if you sell (commercially) a product dug from the ground you are in the mining business and therefore fall under MSHA jurisdiction and all their laws for safety, training, etc. If you have a mine lease, a mining claim or are digging minerals on your own property for sale, you have a mine and fall under MSHA jurisdiction. Recently, five, small, one man (owner/operator) quartz mining operations here in Arkansas were cited by MSHA for not having toilet facilities on the mine site in violation of: "30 CFR § 56.20008 - Toilet facilities. (a) Toilet facilities shall be provided at locations that are compatible with the mine operations and that are readily accessible to mine personnel. (b) The facilities shall be kept clean and sanitary. Separate toilet facilities shall be provided for each sex except where toilet rooms will be occupied by no more than one person at a time and can be locked from the inside." In response to this violation, I took two five gallon buckets and painted HIS on one and HERS on the other and put a role of toilet paper in between. MSHA and the Forest Service were not one bit amused with this idea. By law, the MSHA inspectors are required to cite any violations found at the small, one man surface mining operations the same as they apply to the LARGE underground coal operation. Another example is that a one man operation is required to have a stretcher on site just like the 500 employee operation. Ten years ago there were 20+ small quartz mining operations in this area. Now there are 5 that I know of in the Mount Ida area that are struggling to comply with MSHA and Forest Service requirements (laws) to keep operating. Any commercial mining operation that allows visitors to rockhound on their mine site (with or without a fee) is doing the rockhound community a BIG favor.....and it probably won't happen much longer. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 14:19:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 14:19:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <11b.19d08516.2b057b13@aol.com> You would be far better off loaning it since once donated, the museum is free to do with it what they wish, including hiding it away so that only a few can see it... or even selling it to get cash to run the museum. As for me I welcome, to some extent, high prices for specimens. That ensures that someone will find it worthwhile to go looking for those spectacular specimens. It is truly a double edged sword. Low prices make the "discovered" specimens cheap to obtain but the do nothing to stimulate new discovery. Frankly, I'd rather see the new discoveries, even if that means I cannot afford many of them. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 11/14/2002 3:33:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > > > | Sorry, but this sounds like socialism, or worse, to me. > > | Who decides what should belong to "everyone" and what can > | "I" own? I don't want that power. And I sure don't want > | you to have that power! > > I wouldn't have that kind of power if it was offered to me ;-))))) > But if I had enough money to buy a Van Gogh I would do just that and then > donate or loan it to a museum if only to make sure it didn't disappear in a > personal collection. > Call that socialism is you want, I would call it social behaviour. > > You're free to call is socialism though... what's in a name? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 14:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 14 14:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021114224859.CCN24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> Arkansas, indeed--I was thinking more about the kid with $5 in his pocket, living in Maine, who saved up his allowance for weeks, who can't get anything but junk for that money. Maybe it's not like that everywhere, but I think the price of specimens, even mediocre ones, has far outstripped the pace of inflation. DD > > Now a poor kid who wants to start > > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any > reasoable > > size or quality. -DH > > Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, > you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid > of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. > > Cheers, > > Tim Jokela Jr > tjokela@execulink.com > http://www.element51.com > http://www.ontariominerals.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 15:05:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 15:05:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <001f01c28c33$67a85120$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> Absolutely Earl and, don't forget, I don't know many people who would sell me a rock with a serious discount like you did without me even asking ;-)))) I think we should learn to be a little less materialistic and little more "detached" sometimes (without promoting socialisme or worse ;-))))) I like to give because it makes me feel good, no because I worship Marx or Lenin or Mao... | To some, anything that is legal is also ethical. You and I would not share | that view, I think. No, I wouldn't... Now, solely for arguments sake and grossly exaggerating matters (absolutisms, you remember) we could take this even further and ask whether it is ethical to pay 40 million dollars for a painting (or anything, for that matter) when that amount could eradicate e.i. lepracy... If you have the power to whipe a deadly disease of the face of the earth and save thousands... then what kind of human being must one be to say "no, I 'd rather buy a painting"? You could apply this to thousands of people spending a lesser amount on rocks but I won't go there... It's just in the way we think! If it is legal it must be ethical... if it isn't obliged it is NOT unethical if you don't... cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "earl verbeek" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | | >From: "Axel Emmermann" | > | >Hi Earl, | > | >I have to disagree... halas... ;-)))) | >If those margarosanite specimens are really that rare, I feel they should | >not be hidden in any private collection. Sure, they could make a collector | >proud but then only a select few could enjoy them but that's how I feel. | | Nope, we don't disagree--I too feel they belong in a museum. I wasn't | defending a collector's right to own such things, just discussing what | amount of money it might take to buy one. | | To some, anything that is legal is also ethical. You and I would not share | that view, I think. Over the years I have acquired some specimens that | might be called "museum pieces", and most of those currently are on display | in . . . a museum. My stated intent is to donate these pieces to one or | more museums, also. I just don't feel it's ethical for a private collector | to own world-class specimens unless he or she is prepared to share them with | the world. Others will disagree, I'm sure, but I'm equally sure that you | won't be among them! | | Cheers- Earl Verbeek | | | | | _________________________________________________________________ | MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. | http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 15:15:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 14 15:15:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <11b.19d08516.2b057b13@aol.com> Message-ID: <005501c28c34$fc00e3e0$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> You have a point! Two actually... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | You would be far better off loaning it since once donated, the museum is free | to do with it what they wish, including hiding it away so that only a few can | see it... or even selling it to get cash to run the museum. | | As for me I welcome, to some extent, high prices for specimens. That ensures | that someone will find it worthwhile to go looking for those spectacular | specimens. It is truly a double edged sword. Low prices make the "discovered" | specimens cheap to obtain but the do nothing to stimulate new discovery. | Frankly, I'd rather see the new discoveries, even if that means I cannot | afford many of them. | | Gene Hartstein | | | In a message dated 11/14/2002 3:33:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, | axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: | | | > | > | > | Sorry, but this sounds like socialism, or worse, to me. | > | > | Who decides what should belong to "everyone" and what can | > | "I" own? I don't want that power. And I sure don't want | > | you to have that power! | > | > I wouldn't have that kind of power if it was offered to me ;-))))) | > But if I had enough money to buy a Van Gogh I would do just that and then | > donate or loan it to a museum if only to make sure it didn't disappear in a | > personal collection. | > Call that socialism is you want, I would call it social behaviour. | > | > You're free to call is socialism though... what's in a name? | | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 16:29:12 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Nov 14 16:29:12 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message References: <3DD31FB4.7F69@Tomaszewski.net> <004b01c28bbe$98d46a60$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3DD43F7A.64B5@Tomaszewski.net> That's a useful link. We should have thought of calling in the FBI ourselves. (Does that obscure reference to moonrocks bring this around enough to count as being on subject?) Thanks Axel! Kreigh Axel Emmermann wrote: > > Hi Kreigh and Jimmy, > > Tracking down an IP is very easy with these net-tools. > Nothing to install, it's an online service. > http://www.all-nettools.com/ > > Succes > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:06 AM > Subject: OT: Re: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message > > | Chengi Kuo wrote: > | > > | > Reply-to: is not set to Rockhounds. > | > > | > And it has an attachment. > | > > | > Since I just posted, my name became known to whoever on the list is > infected > | > with Bugbear and I got a 57.74K byte BugBear file in response. > | > > | > Jimmy > | > | Were you able to capture the source IP from the headers? IMHO, It is > | usually reliable. If you published it someone might recognize it as > | their own and be able to take action to secure their system. > | > | (If not, maybe my posting will trigger a BugBear to me and I can safely > | capture headers to track down our infected member). > | > | Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 14 21:04:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Thu Nov 14 21:04:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit Message-ID: <001301c28c64$1a11fd40$854127c4@horstspc> Hi List, Sorry for repeating my request. Two persons on the list did respond to = this query, but unfortunately have deleted them before following up on = the suggested website. Out there somewhere, could you possibly supply = the information again? MANY THANKS!! Regards, Horst ----- Original Message -----=20 From: horstwindisch=20 To: rockhounds=20 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:18 PM Subject: Earth Science/Space Science Study Kit Hi List, I have a pamphlet issued by Jensan Educational Products U.S.A (issued in = 1998). in which they were offering Earth Science/Space Science Study = Kits for sale e.g. a Meteorite Study Kit (JPT-3569 going for $85); Moon = Rocks/Earth Rocks (JPT-3567 at $135); Impact Maps (JPT-3596 at $21.95) = and Elements of the Universe (HPT-3575 at $260). Can anybody supply me with the USA address of this company? Thank you. Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 01:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Nov 15 01:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message References: <3DD31FB4.7F69@Tomaszewski.net> <004b01c28bbe$98d46a60$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> <3DD43F7A.64B5@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <003c01c28c88$fee72fc0$d99c77d5@pandora.be> Hmmm... it was the FBI that gave us the link after one of us reported an internet-scam that seemed to have come from the US. Actually it came from an African country. At least now you can find out if people are who they say they are... Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message | That's a useful link. We should have thought of calling in the FBI | ourselves. | | (Does that obscure reference to moonrocks bring this around enough to | count as being on subject?) | | Thanks Axel! | | Kreigh | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | > Hi Kreigh and Jimmy, | > | > Tracking down an IP is very easy with these net-tools. | > Nothing to install, it's an online service. | > http://www.all-nettools.com/ | > | > Succes | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" | > To: | > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:06 AM | > Subject: OT: Re: [Rockhounds] How to recognize a viral Rockhounds message | > | > | Chengi Kuo wrote: | > | > | > | > Reply-to: is not set to Rockhounds. | > | > | > | > And it has an attachment. | > | > | > | > Since I just posted, my name became known to whoever on the list is | > infected | > | > with Bugbear and I got a 57.74K byte BugBear file in response. | > | > | > | > Jimmy | > | | > | Were you able to capture the source IP from the headers? IMHO, It is | > | usually reliable. If you published it someone might recognize it as | > | their own and be able to take action to secure their system. | > | | > | (If not, maybe my posting will trigger a BugBear to me and I can safely | > | capture headers to track down our infected member). | > | | > | Kreigh | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 02:06:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Nov 15 02:06:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <20021114224859.CCN24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> Message-ID: <005e01c28c8f$e1f46f20$d99c77d5@pandora.be> Poor kid should immigrate to Belgium ;-)))) (we serve beer IF over 16 and under parental guidance ;-))) To give all, myself included, a better understanding about the discrepancy between prices in US and Belgium or Europe: http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoSCH486.html ===> cost me 33.75 US$ in 2001 at the MKA-fair Minerant http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoARA378.html ===> cost me 30.00 US$ in 1996 at the monthly MKA meeting (single aragonite crystal is 2.5 cm high) http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoCAL1016.html ==> cost me 15.00 US$ in 2002 at the MKA-fair Minerant (11 cm high) http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoPHL1011.html ==> cost me 25.00 US$ in 2002 at the MKA-fair Minerant http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoARA566.html ===> cost me 24.50 US$ in 2001 at the ACAM-fair (Also Antwerp) Indiv. aragonite needles are about 2.5cm long) A photo may not tell much about a specimen and the fluorescence may trick the eye even more but I'm sure you have seen comparable specimens on US fairs. I'm curious how you would price these specimens... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | | Arkansas, indeed--I was thinking more about the kid with $5 in his pocket, | living in Maine, who saved up his allowance for weeks, who can't get anything | but junk for that money. Maybe it's not like that everywhere, but I think the | price of specimens, even mediocre ones, has far outstripped the pace of | inflation. | | DD | | > > Now a poor kid who wants to start | > > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any | > reasoable | > > size or quality. -DH | > | > Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, | > you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid | > of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. | > | > Cheers, | > | > Tim Jokela Jr | > tjokela@execulink.com | > http://www.element51.com | > http://www.ontariominerals.com | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 03:19:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Nov 15 03:19:00 2002 Subject: When there's only one, was: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <00af01c28c9a$1f2a18e0$d99c77d5@pandora.be> Hi Jimmy | Any specimen is unique. And rare or not, it can only be in one location. So, | the argument can be extended to meaningless ends. "Why is it in the Belgium | musuem?" True but: if prices go up until only a select few can pay them, rock collecting will become a thing for the elite. Do we want that? Do we look at a pretty crystal of say rhodochrosite and wonder what it will be worth tomorrow? Or do we enjoy it's beauty and enrich our minds by looking at all its properties? We can have it both ways but only if we are wealthy enough... | The thing to do would be to figure out how to simulate the circumstance with | manuscripts. How about 3-D photography? Or 3-D copying technology (this | exists already). Would you stand in awe before a plastic replica of Michelangelo's "David" knowing that the real statue was in a crate in my cellar? Would you really fly to Italy to see the plastic replica? Why bother? There could be a "David" in every town square... Can you see the exquisite brushing technique of Monet on a photo? Why not make a perfect recording of Guiseppe Verdi's "La Traviata" or Puccini's "La Bohème"... the recording could then be played in the opera house while the singers "lip" their performance. What better is there than a perfect performance time after time? This is a clear example of devaluation following an inflation ;-))))))))))))))))) Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 05:24:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 05:24:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <163.172ec44a.2b064f5d@aol.com> When the healy feelie market was booming there were gross pricing gaps. Certainly not limited to only 1000% markups over collector prices. In the early 1980's, metaphysical councilors would buy at retail and then mark up the specimens. As there was not basis for pricing and there was an enthusiastic customer base, prices more than soared. I've never really perceived that there was a significant impact on collector specimens, other than quartz, although there has been an influence on celestine from Madagascar. A mineral dealer once half-heartedly asked me to go to work for a well-known metaphysical dealer so to have access to his mailing list. Not a chance. Once escorted some local collectors, from my club, for a day through the tents at Tucson. They had all they could do from busting out laughing when I asked the Boji stone man if the specimens were from Atlantis. Well, he wouldn't say where they were from. What could I do? Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 05:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 05:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: Good writing Earl. There is beginning to be a divergence in the thread. Some are concerned about inflation in high end specimens and some are being concerned by "low end" material. "Low end" in the sense of under $100 specimens, let's say. I was addressing the high end pricing previously. The good stuff will always be high priced. We mortals have to accept that as a fact. I do share a concern about the "low end" and maybe that's where I see the real concern collectors should think about. As a micromounter, I am beginning to see relatively few specimens under $5 for sale. Not that I'm in the market for cheap specimens, but there is inflation on the low end which is beginning to group very good specimens with "children's quality" specimens. (I'm not sure it's fair to children to give them junk, but that's the term.) At any rate, reference quality specimens are not appearing on the show floor because the cost of doing business makes dealers try to sell specimens with a certain average price. It's costs about the same to prepare $5 specimens for sale as it does $100 specimens - time and materials a consideration, not acquisition cost. I like outdoor shows, because there are many part-time dealers who have low overhead and are willing to sell reference quality specimens for $1 or less. Frankly, I'm glad the euro was introduced as many of my favorite European dealers have effectively come down in price. When they'd show up at Tucson, Denver, etc., they'd multiply their European prices to make up for the exchange rate, but the resulting small number made them think their specimens were too cheap. When you divide by two, more or less, German specimens didn't look too bad. If you had a currency trading at over 100 to one, the resulting price looked very small and there was the tendency to increase the price to compensate for the disappointingly small number price. I frequently help a French mineral dealer at Tucson and he'd ask me to help him price as that is one of my career jobs. He'd say, "Do you think $30?" If I said, "Yes", he'd write $35. After all, the Franc was 20% of the Dollar. If I'd reply that I thought not $30, but $50 - the written price was $60. One American dealer had a specimen in my specialty area for $1500. He was saving it for a client. I dearly wanted to buy it, but said nothing. He asked if the locality was correct and I inspected it for its nuances and said, "Yes". "What do you think of the price?" I said I thought it was low. He then turned to his companions in the room and beamed a big smile. Apparently, they had "ragged on" him about what they thought was a stratospheric price, although they had specimens for sale over $50,000. The specimen I should have tried to bargain for became $5,000 and the specimen sold to the prospective client. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 05:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 05:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <47.260c6953.2b0656af@aol.com> All is not lost for the kids. Went to a local show recently and there was a flat of specimens at $1.50 each. I made a selection of over a dozen and they became $0.75. Each had nice crystals and they'll make their way around the neighborhood kids for Christmas. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 06:43:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 06:43:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021115144202.UZGK13909.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc20> Excellent! Truly, Van, I would expect you to give out specimens for Halloween too. Don > All is not lost for the kids. Went to a local show recently and there was a > flat of specimens at $1.50 each. I made a selection of over a dozen and they > became $0.75. Each had nice crystals and they'll make their way around the > neighborhood kids for Christmas. > > Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 07:07:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 07:07:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <6F47B7ED.42821B0A.02180873@aol.com> As one of those part time dealers you mention (albeit mostly in fossils). I try to keep both reference and display quality specimens in stock. You correctly perceive several of the issues. One of the greatest however, is that the table space consumption and cost to transport (in other words the fixed costs) of marketing cheap specimens is the same as expensive ones. To break even one must mark them up more. I know that a lot of dealers, including myself will have lots more cheapies under the table. I keep feeding the empty spots as the stuff gets bought, but I positively will limit table space devoted to under $5 specimens. Ask to see the under the table stuff!! If things are not too hectic, I always welcome polite, careful, adult collectors to go through the boxes under the table. In the end collectors get what they pay for. If I could sell a truckload of cheapies, I'd bring lots more. Dealers have migrated to a pricier spread because that is what gives them the best return for their effort. The reality is that it is just about as difficult to acquire and sell fairly priced cheapies vs. more expensive specimens. I'm not talking stratosphere here, just the $30 to $500 range. This makes up the vast bulk of my revenues. The message is if you want to see more reasonably-priced specimens, buy them and stimulate the market. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 11/15/2002 8:50:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ANNWB2@aol.com writes: >Good writing Earl. > >There is beginning to be a divergence in the thread. Some are concerned about >inflation in high end specimens and some are being concerned by "low end" >material. "Low end" in the sense of under $100 specimens, let's say. I was >addressing the high end pricing previously. The good stuff will always be >high priced. We mortals have to accept that as a fact. I do share a concern >about the "low end" and maybe that's where I see the real concern collectors >should think about. As a micromounter, I am beginning to see relatively few >specimens under $5 for sale. Not that I'm in the market for cheap specimens, >but there is inflation on the low end which is beginning to group very good >specimens with "children's quality" specimens. (I'm not sure it's fair to >children to give them junk, but that's the term.) > >At any rate, reference quality specimens are not appearing on the show floor >because the cost of doing business makes dealers try to sell specimens with a >certain average price. It's costs about the same to prepare $5 specimens for >sale as it does $100 specimens - time and materials a consideration, not >acquisition cost. > >I like outdoor shows, because there are many part-time dealers who have low >overhead and are willing to sell reference quality specimens for $1 or less.   >Frankly, I'm glad the euro was introduced as many of my favorite European >dealers have effectively come down in price.  When they'd show up at Tucson, >Denver, etc., they'd multiply their European prices to make up for the >exchange rate, but the resulting small number made them think their specimens >were too cheap. When you divide by two, more or less, German specimens didn't >look too bad. If you had a currency trading at over 100 to one, the resulting >price looked very small and there was the tendency to increase the price to >compensate for the disappointingly small number price. I frequently help a >French mineral dealer at Tucson and he'd ask me to help him price as that is >one of my career jobs. He'd say, "Do you think $30?" If I said, "Yes", he'd >write $35. After all, the Franc was 20% of the Dollar. If I'd reply that I >thought not $30, but $50 - the written price was $60. > >One American dealer had a specimen in my specialty area for $1500. He was >saving it for a client. I dearly wanted to buy it, but said nothing. He asked >if the locality was correct and I inspected it for its nuances and said, >"Yes". "What do you think of the price?" I said I thought it was low. He then >turned to his companions in the room and beamed a big smile. Apparently, they >had "ragged on" him about what they thought was a stratospheric price, >although they had specimens for sale over $50,000. The specimen I should have >tried to bargain for became $5,000 and the specimen sold to the prospective >client. > >Van >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 07:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Fri Nov 15 07:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <20021115144202.UZGK13909.mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc20> Message-ID: One of our club members does this. He asks treat or treaters whether they want candy or rocks. Many say "rocks!" and get some small polished agates or whatever. He buys stuff for this at our club's silent auction. Best wishes -Dr. Bill. >Excellent! Truly, Van, I would expect you to give out specimens for >Halloween >too. > > >Don > >> All is not lost for the kids. Went to a local show recently and there was a >> flat of specimens at $1.50 each. I made a selection of over a dozen and >>they >> became $0.75. Each had nice crystals and they'll make their way around the >> neighborhood kids for Christmas. >> >> Van >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 08:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 08:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <20021115163756.ORZQ663.fl-webmail02@fl-webmail02> Gene, I can relate to this. I'm in a similar boat, but with minerals rather than fossils. Depending on my available space, I try to devote one table to $3 specimens (discounted 4/$10). At some shows I sell many of these, often to teachers, children, and parents (for gifts). But then at other shows, almost no one will even look at them. Go figure! I, like you, have a few flats of lower priced items that I hold back as "filler" material to be used as other items sell. I don't want things to look "picked over"! Bottom line is that the available space has to be allotted to at least break even! And, yes, the $30-200 specimen pay the bulk of the bills! John Teague Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > From: FOSSILNUT@aol.com > Date: 2002/11/15 Fri AM 10:07:07 EST > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > > As one of those part time dealers you mention (albeit mostly in fossils). I try to keep both reference and display quality specimens in stock. You correctly perceive several of the issues. One of the greatest however, is that the table space consumption and cost to transport (in other words the fixed costs) of marketing cheap specimens is the same as expensive ones. To break even one must mark them up more. > > I know that a lot of dealers, including myself will have lots more cheapies under the table. I keep feeding the empty spots as the stuff gets bought, but I positively will limit table space devoted to under $5 specimens. Ask to see the under the table stuff!! If things are not too hectic, I always welcome polite, careful, adult collectors to go through the boxes under the table. > > In the end collectors get what they pay for. If I could sell a truckload of cheapies, I'd bring lots more. Dealers have migrated to a pricier spread because that is what gives them the best return for their effort. The reality is that it is just about as difficult to acquire and sell fairly priced cheapies vs. more expensive specimens. I'm not talking stratosphere here, just the $30 to $500 range. This makes up the vast bulk of my revenues. > > The message is if you want to see more reasonably-priced specimens, buy them and stimulate the market. > > Gene Hartstein > > In a message dated 11/15/2002 8:50:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ANNWB2@aol.com writes: > > >Good writing Earl. > > > >There is beginning to be a divergence in the thread. Some are concerned about > >inflation in high end specimens and some are being concerned by "low end" > >material. "Low end" in the sense of under $100 specimens, let's say. I was > >addressing the high end pricing previously. The good stuff will always be > >high priced. We mortals have to accept that as a fact. I do share a concern > >about the "low end" and maybe that's where I see the real concern collectors > >should think about. As a micromounter, I am beginning to see relatively few > >specimens under $5 for sale. Not that I'm in the market for cheap specimens, > >but there is inflation on the low end which is beginning to group very good > >specimens with "children's quality" specimens. (I'm not sure it's fair to > >children to give them junk, but that's the term.) > > > >At any rate, reference quality specimens are not appearing on the show floor > >because the cost of doing business makes dealers try to sell specimens with a > >certain average price. It's costs about the same to prepare $5 specimens for > >sale as it does $100 specimens - time and materials a consideration, not > >acquisition cost. > > > >I like outdoor shows, because there are many part-time dealers who have low > >overhead and are willing to sell reference quality specimens for $1 or less.   > >Frankly, I'm glad the euro was introduced as many of my favorite European > >dealers have effectively come down in price.  When they'd show up at Tucson, > >Denver, etc., they'd multiply their European prices to make up for the > >exchange rate, but the resulting small number made them think their specimens > >were too cheap. When you divide by two, more or less, German specimens didn't > >look too bad. If you had a currency trading at over 100 to one, the resulting > >price looked very small and there was the tendency to increase the price to > >compensate for the disappointingly small number price. I frequently help a > >French mineral dealer at Tucson and he'd ask me to help him price as that is > >one of my career jobs. He'd say, "Do you think $30?" If I said, "Yes", he'd > >write $35. After all, the Franc was 20% of the Dollar. If I'd reply that I > >thought not $30, but $50 - the written price was $60. > > > >One American dealer had a specimen in my specialty area for $1500. He was > >saving it for a client. I dearly wanted to buy it, but said nothing. He asked > >if the locality was correct and I inspected it for its nuances and said, > >"Yes". "What do you think of the price?" I said I thought it was low. He then > >turned to his companions in the room and beamed a big smile. Apparently, they > >had "ragged on" him about what they thought was a stratospheric price, > >although they had specimens for sale over $50,000. The specimen I should have > >tried to bargain for became $5,000 and the specimen sold to the prospective > >client. > > > >Van > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 09:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Fri Nov 15 09:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: OK Axel, I'll bite: It's difficult to price specimens from photos, but if I were selling them for someone else who wanted them priced on the high side of reasonable, here's what I might start with: SCH486 $60 ARA378 $40 CAL 1016 $40 PHL 1011 $80 ARA 566 $100 Total $320, as compared to your actual cost of $129, so we're looking at a little more than double the average cost between the fair-minded Vlaameroids and us capitalist-pig Americans. :- )))) I should note, too, that during my recent visit to an MKA meeting in Antwerp I was struck by how very inexpensive the specimens offered for sale were. I saw quite respectable, attractive reference specimens selling for five Euros or less (List folks: a Euro at present is almost equivalent to a U.S. dollar). I think the reason for this is in part economic, as already discussed, and part cultural. I've spent a lot of time in Europe and have always been heartened by how closely many folks are connected with their landscape--there are great numbers of amateur botanists, rockhounds, mycologists, etc. The guidebooks and maps and other publications available to the average European far outstrip what is available to U.S. folks (though we are gradually catching up with the Roadside Geology series and have a greater interest in the outdoor sciences now than we did in the 1970s). And when I go to meetings or view private mineral collections I am struck by another difference: many U.S. collectors are fixated on aesthetics, whereas European ones tend more toward systematic documentation and knowledge. That's a CONSIDERABLE overstatement, but the tendency nonetheless exists. I suspect a good reference specimen receives quite a bit more respect among collectors in Europe than it does in the U.S. To cement this impression further: Just last week I toured the marlstone "caves" (really mines for building stone) in Valkenberg, Holland. It's a 2-km walk, easily accepted by most Europeans. The guide, however, told us that 95% of all Americans (yes, that's 95%) elect to ride instead. Cultural differences indeed. Cheers! Earl Verbeek - - - - - - - - - - - - - >To give all, myself included, a better understanding about the discrepancy >between prices in US and Belgium or Europe: > >http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoSCH486.html ===> cost me 33.75 US$ in >2001 at the MKA-fair Minerant >http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoARA378.html ===> cost me 30.00 US$ in >1996 at the monthly MKA meeting (single aragonite crystal is 2.5 cm high) >http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoCAL1016.html ==> cost me 15.00 US$ in >2002 at the MKA-fair Minerant (11 cm high) >http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoPHL1011.html ==> cost me 25.00 US$ in >2002 at the MKA-fair Minerant >http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoARA566.html ===> cost me 24.50 US$ in >2001 at the ACAM-fair (Also Antwerp) Indiv. aragonite needles are about >2.5cm long) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 09:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 09:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <11b.19d08516.2b057b13@aol.com> Message-ID: Gene brings up good points. There are many (many, many... ) minerals on the market now only because of high prices. It's the high prices that now make it possible to mine old localities that have sat idle for decades. As a field collector, this does of course take many of them out of the list that I can visit, and considering that I'm mostly interested in finding my own, studying the mineralogy of localities and thus don't buy many specimens, all this commercial activitiy takes a lot away from what I can personally visit. Yet I'm not against it at all. Even with all the complaints (and as editor/publisher of the Mineral News I get them constantly) about high prices, I'm still in favor of the increased specimen mining activities, which makes being against higher prices impossible. Bryan Lees/Collector's Edge and his partners would not have risked the money on the Sweet Home Mine if they thought those rhodochrosites would sell for only $100-500 each. The mining companies would not be contracting with Stan Esbenshade or Casey Jones allowing the mining of the Chino coppers or the Meikle barites if the company thought the specimens would sell for $10 a piece. As to the good material going into private collections. Not a problem. There are many more museums out there with mineral specimens (or old masters paintings) than any one of us will ever get to visit in our lifetime, and especially to thoroughly view all they have (even just those on display). So where's the problem? There are no shortages in the museums, and the private collectors spending 10s to 100s of thousands of dollars on specimens keep the flow of specimens (of all sizes, qualities and prices) flowing. (Considering that many museum collections of fine paintings and major mineral collections only exist because of donations from wealthy people (before or after their demise), I can't see any reason to complain about private ownership. My only complaint is the shortage of mineral museums in the NW USA, and especially the shortage of museums with an active mineralogy department that would be interested in a representative collection from NW localities that needs much more study. As in, I still haven't figured out what to do with my collection when it's time to pass it along.... Regards, Lanny >You would be far better off loaning it since once donated, the museum is free >to do with it what they wish, including hiding it away so that only a few can >see it... or even selling it to get cash to run the museum. > >As for me I welcome, to some extent, high prices for specimens. That ensures >that someone will find it worthwhile to go looking for those spectacular >specimens. It is truly a double edged sword. Low prices make the "discovered" >specimens cheap to obtain but the do nothing to stimulate new discovery. >Frankly, I'd rather see the new discoveries, even if that means I cannot >afford many of them. > >Gene Hartstein > > >In a message dated 11/14/2002 3:33:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > > >> >> >> | Sorry, but this sounds like socialism, or worse, to me. >> >> | Who decides what should belong to "everyone" and what can >> | "I" own? I don't want that power. And I sure don't want >> | you to have that power! >> >> I wouldn't have that kind of power if it was offered to me ;-))))) >> But if I had enough money to buy a Van Gogh I would do just that and then >> donate or loan it to a museum if only to make sure it didn't disappear in a >> personal collection. >> Call that socialism is you want, I would call it social behaviour. >> >> You're free to call is socialism though... what's in a name? > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 09:52:31 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 15 09:52:31 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <20021114224859.CCN24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> Message-ID: At times it seems that way, but after visiting the Denver and Tucson Shows and local shows many times during the last few decades, I've noted that that is not realy true. It seems overwhelmingly true at times if one just notes the big obvious material, but if one looks around, there are many dealers with very good $1 to $20 specimens. I haven't seen one of these shows yet where a beginner would be unable to find good $5 specimens. Of course it may be that I have a different attitude than many. I like everything; a specimen doesn't have to look like what is now a $10,000 rhodochrosite to be worth my $5. Regards, Lanny >Arkansas, indeed--I was thinking more about the kid with $5 in his pocket, >living in Maine, who saved up his allowance for weeks, who can't get anything >but junk for that money. Maybe it's not like that everywhere, but I think >the >price of specimens, even mediocre ones, has far outstripped the pace of >inflation. > >DD > >> > Now a poor kid who wants to start >> > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any >> reasoable >> > size or quality. -DH >> >> Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, >> you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid >> of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Tim Jokela Jr >> tjokela@execulink.com >> http://www.element51.com >> http://www.ontariominerals.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 11:05:14 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Nov 15 11:05:14 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <00a801c28cdb$23876f00$d99c77d5@pandora.be> | OK Axel, I'll bite: Bon appetit, mon ami ;-))) | It's difficult to price specimens from photos, but if I were selling them | for someone else who wanted them priced on the high side of reasonable, | here's what I might start with: | SCH486 $60 | ARA378 $40 | CAL 1016 $40 | PHL 1011 $80 | ARA 566 $100 | | Total $320, as compared to your actual cost of $129, so we're looking at a | little more than double the average cost between the fair-minded Vlaameroids | and us capitalist-pig Americans. :- )))) Viva la revoluçion! Ché lives... (ROFL) Funny enough, the ARA566 was bought by one of our members from a Chinese on one of those really big US mineral shows. I assume he me a profit selling it to me too... But your right, we're cheap (ROFL again). | I should note, too, that during my recent visit to an MKA meeting in Antwerp | I was struck by how very inexpensive the specimens offered for sale were. I | saw quite respectable, attractive reference specimens selling for five Euros | or less (List folks: a Euro at present is almost equivalent to a U.S. | dollar). That's why I reacted in the first place. Prices are rising rapidly here too and I would like to see that evolution reversed or at least stopped. The rest of what you said is very well observed. It doesn't have to be big or shiny... just pretty or interesting or scientifically interesting. We also do not collect exorbitantly priced minerals to prove that we have achieved great success on a professional and financial level. To that end there are better collectibles like antiques, oldtimers, woman, empty beer bottles..... Cheers Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 12:05:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Fri Nov 15 12:05:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Earl stated things quite correctly, provided you don't forget that he mentioned his observations as a tendency, a trend, not an overall applicable rule. In Tucson I have seen cases of a ten-fold (and more !) increase of prices from a roadside show to the Main Show in the Convention Centre. Once I recognised a flat that was on a roadside show until two days before the main show, and it appeared on the Main Show for 10 X the original price (by another dealer who bought it "outside"). I always thought keystone worked in the opposite direction. I think that prices are mostly driven by "what can I get for something at a certain place and time ?". To put it to the extreme : I can imagine a piece that goes 100 USD at the main show in Tucson, 50 USD in Sainte-Marie-aux-Mines or Munich, 20 USD here in Antwerp, and... if you could sell it at all, perhaps 5 USD in Roumenia. For me at present a specimen of > 100 USD/EUR is considered as quite expensive ! Greetings, and have fun ! Rik Dillen -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of earl verbeek Sent: 15 November, 2002 6:11 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold OK Axel, I'll bite: It's difficult to price specimens from photos, but if I were selling them for someone else who wanted them priced on the high side of reasonable, here's what I might start with: SCH486 $60 ARA378 $40 CAL 1016 $40 PHL 1011 $80 ARA 566 $100 Total $320, as compared to your actual cost of $129, so we're looking at a little more than double the average cost between the fair-minded Vlaameroids and us capitalist-pig Americans. :- )))) I should note, too, that during my recent visit to an MKA meeting in Antwerp I was struck by how very inexpensive the specimens offered for sale were. I saw quite respectable, attractive reference specimens selling for five Euros or less (List folks: a Euro at present is almost equivalent to a U.S. dollar). I think the reason for this is in part economic, as already From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 12:12:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Fri Nov 15 12:12:01 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: > My only complaint is the shortage of mineral > museums in the NW USA, and > especially the shortage of museums with an > active mineralogy department > that would be interested in a representative > collection from NW localities > that needs much more study. As in, I still > haven't figured out what to do > with my collection when it's time to pass it > along.... I'll take some. :-) But apart from the Rice Museum, what are some others in the area that have mineral displays? Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our club, I've been doing a series on mineral displays of various museums that I've had the benefit to visit in my travels. I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum, the Field Museum in Chicago, and an unpublished one on the San Antonio Museum of Art. I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to Tucson. Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 14:58:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gloria Hoover) Date: Fri Nov 15 14:58:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment Message-ID: <3DD57BF3.482472DC@earthlink.net> Hello Remember the old kids experiment with the household chemicals sprinkled on coal? If you have the "recipe" could you please post it or email it to me? Have a teacher customer that would like to show it to her class. Thanks Gloria -- http://natures-emporium.com/ Jewelry, bookends, amethyst geodes, decor items, tumbled stones http://frontporchcoffee.com unroasted green coffee & custom roasted coffee From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 16:28:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Nov 15 16:28:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment In-Reply-To: <3DD57BF3.482472DC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> >Remember the old kids experiment with the household chemicals sprinkled >on coal? > >If you have the "recipe" could you please post it or email it to me? >Have a teacher customer that would like to show it to her class. > >Thanks >Gloria I have a recipe for growing crystals on porous material such as cork, sponge or driftwood. Coal is not mentioned. The recipe includes bluing, which I know can be found, but is not usually considered part of the average household supplies nowadays. Let me know if you want it. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 17:26:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gloria Hoover) Date: Fri Nov 15 17:26:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> Bluing might have been one of the ingredients so yes would like the recipe. Thanks Gloria Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > >Remember the old kids experiment with the household chemicals sprinkled > >on coal? > > > >If you have the "recipe" could you please post it or email it to me? > >Have a teacher customer that would like to show it to her class. > > > >Thanks > >Gloria > > I have a recipe for growing crystals on porous material such as cork, > sponge or driftwood. Coal is not mentioned. The recipe includes bluing, > which I know can be found, but is not usually considered part of the > average household supplies nowadays. Let me know if you want it. > > Aloha, Kitty > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds -- http://natures-emporium.com/ Jewelry, bookends, amethyst geodes, decor items, tumbled stones http://frontporchcoffee.com unroasted green coffee & custom roasted coffee From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 17:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Nov 15 17:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment References: <3DD57BF3.482472DC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3DD5A095.325C@Tomaszewski.net> Gloria Hoover wrote: > > Hello > > Remember the old kids experiment with the household chemicals sprinkled > on coal? > > If you have the "recipe" could you please post it or email it to me? > Have a teacher customer that would like to show it to her class. > > Thanks > Gloria Second hit searching google for 'coal garden'. http://www.fifedrum.org/rhinohug/Coalgarden.html From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 17:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Nov 15 17:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> Hello I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' for a gem and mineral club. she is looking for experiments such as this - growing crystals - that younger 'pebble pups' can do. Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. If you have any more 'recipies' for growing crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! Thank you GeorgiaO From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 18:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Fri Nov 15 18:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING In-Reply-To: <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20021115210412.027e1f60@po2.bbn.com> For teaching materials on volcanos go to http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of time. Good luck! Nate Martin Lexington, MA At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: >Hello >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' >for a gem and mineral club. > >she is looking for experiments such as >this - growing crystals - that younger >'pebble pups' can do. > >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. > >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! > >Thank you >GeorgiaO >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 18:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Nov 15 18:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> Message-ID: <3DD5AB4E.59EA@Tomaszewski.net> Frederick Olmstead wrote: > > Hello > I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' > for a gem and mineral club. > > she is looking for experiments such as > this - growing crystals - that younger > 'pebble pups' can do. > > Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. > > If you have any more 'recipies' for growing > crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! > > Thank you > GeorgiaO from my Chemcraft 'Chemical Magic' manual... Put 1 teaspoon of Sodium Silicate and 3 teaspoons of water in a glass and stir to mix. Add measures of Aluminum Sulfate, Nickel Ammonium Sulfate, Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate, Ferric Ammonium Sumfate, and Cobalt Chloride. Watch and you will see 'chemical vegetation' grow before your eyes. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 18:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Nov 15 18:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] collecting nr Denver References: <3DD31FB4.7F69@Tomaszewski.net> <004b01c28bbe$98d46a60$e1ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3DD5B13A.3A7C@rcn.com> Ok So it will not be the best time of year to collect... However I will be in the Longmont, Colorado area next week and hope you can tell me places to collect 'nearby' Or places to visit 'nerby' Last time I was in the area - Estes Park - the rock shop was closed for the season. Information about rock/mineral clubs (in the area), and when they meet (do they meet around the holiday??) would be helpful. THANKZZZZ GeorgiaO folmstead@rcn.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 19:36:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Nov 15 19:36:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment In-Reply-To: <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115172612.020d8a90@mail.aloha.net> < References: <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115180301.0219a550@mail.aloha.net> >For teaching materials on volcanos go to >http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html > >I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub >scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This >makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of time. > >Good luck! > >Nate Martin That's a neat site. Thanks for the tip. But I wish they had some "lava flow" recipes. I imagine there are many around. I once observed a kindergarten class where the kids had previously made a volcano out of clay, and there was a "crater" depression in the top. The teacher had a small pitcher of some liquid from which she poured a small amount into the "crater," and then she poured some other liquid into that...maybe vinegar?...and it foamed and flowed down the volcano to the great delight of the kids. Any simple chemistry ideas out there? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 20:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Nov 15 20:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115180301.0219a550@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3DD5C6C7.2C7E@Tomaszewski.net> Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > >For teaching materials on volcanos go to > >http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html > > > >I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub > >scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This > >makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of time. > > > >Good luck! > > > >Nate Martin > > That's a neat site. Thanks for the tip. > > But I wish they had some "lava flow" recipes. I imagine there are many > around. I once observed a kindergarten class where the kids had previously > made a volcano out of clay, and there was a "crater" depression in the > top. The teacher had a small pitcher of some liquid from which she poured > a small amount into the "crater," and then she poured some other liquid > into that...maybe vinegar?...and it foamed and flowed down the volcano to > the great delight of the kids. > > Any simple chemistry ideas out there? Baking soda (solution) and vinegar. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 20:51:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Nov 15 20:51:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING In-Reply-To: <3DD5C6C7.2C7E@Tomaszewski.net> References: <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115180301.0219a550@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115185917.02199a00@mail.aloha.net> > > But I wish they had some "lava flow" recipes. I imagine there are > > Any simple chemistry ideas out there? > >Baking soda (solution) and vinegar. Thanks Kreigh! I knew it had to be simple! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 22:01:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Fri Nov 15 22:01:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115180301.0219a550@mail.aloha.net> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20021115210412.027e1f60@po2.bbn.com> <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20021116005649.0287a578@po2.bbn.com> At 12:19 AM 11/16/2002, you wrote: >>For teaching materials on volcanos go to >>http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html >That's a neat site. Thanks for the tip. > >But I wish they had some "lava flow" recipes. I imagine there are many >around. I once observed a kindergarten class where the kids had >previously made a volcano out of clay, and there was a "crater" depression >in the top. The teacher had a small pitcher of some liquid from which she >poured a small amount into the "crater," and then she poured some other >liquid into that...maybe vinegar?...and it foamed and flowed down the >volcano to the great delight of the kids. > >Any simple chemistry ideas out there? Click on item 2 on that same web site then click on viewing the eruptions. They recommend the following: "The simplest and safest way to model an eruption is to mix vinegar, baking soda and a few drops of dish soap. We made two modifications. We added red food coloring to the vinegar to give the fluid more lava-like appearance. We also added alka seltzer (crushed and mixed in with the baking soda). The alka seltzer probably wasn't worth the trouble/cost but, as the red mixture bubbled away down in the vial, our thoughts did drift to the lava ponds we have seen." Nate Martin From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 22:14:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Fri Nov 15 22:14:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Boji Stones In-Reply-To: <163.172ec44a.2b064f5d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021116061343.38836.qmail@web11104.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Van, I'm enjoying the thread. The Boji stones I have seen are from Western Kansas, USA. cheers, Stan --- ANNWB2@aol.com wrote: > When the healy feelie market was booming there were > gross pricing gaps. > Certainly not limited to only 1000% markups over > collector prices. In the > early 1980's, metaphysical councilors would buy at > retail and then mark up > the specimens. As there was not basis for pricing > and there was an > enthusiastic customer base, prices more than soared. > I've never really > perceived that there was a significant impact on > collector specimens, other > than quartz, although there has been an influence on > celestine from > Madagascar. A mineral dealer once half-heartedly > asked me to go to work for > a well-known metaphysical dealer so to have access > to his mailing list. Not a > chance. > > Once escorted some local collectors, from my club, > for a day through the > tents at Tucson. They had all they could do from > busting out laughing when I > asked the Boji stone man if the specimens were from > Atlantis. Well, he > wouldn't say where they were from. What could I do? > > Van > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 15 23:11:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Fri Nov 15 23:11:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <000401c28d3f$0d9acca0$b83f27c4@horstspc> Hi list, I may be going off on a tangent with this very interesting topic. As everyone agrees mineral prices keep on rising, year after year and very few see this as us being our own worst enemy. We are basically "killing" our hobby-and eventually it will become an "elitist" hobby (for those with enough money) and will be "lost" to the "man-in-the-street". Claus Hedegaard recently touched upon this aspect in an article (in either "Rock and Gem" or " Rocks and Minerals"). We are pricing ourselves out of the hobby, the way prices are escalating at the moment. Also look at any monthly meeting of a Gem and Mineral Club or an outing - how many young people do you see? When I started in the hobby )more than 35 years ago), we were all youngsters of about the same age, used to take our pre-school or school-going kids on outings. What do you see today? Mostly oldies and very few youngsters!! I attended the "cracker-barrel" session of the AFMS Show in Tampa in 1991, where the subject of the follow-up generation of gem and mineral collectors was discussed for at least an hour and a half, but nobody seemed to have clear-cut solutions. Let's also add, this is a worldwoide phenomenon, not only peculiar to the USA. Money is certainly playing a role in this scene!! Although these comments come from the tip of Africa and I have not had the opportunity in attending many shows in the USA and Europe it did strike me (and I have heard similar comments from collectors in the States and Europe) that many collectors only attend Tucson or Munich to have a look, not to buy. The prices are exorbitant in many cases. Lesser shows may still deliver more bargains for the beginner and advanced collector. Another aspect (from a South African point of view) is that I cannot afford the prices charged at Tucson and Munich for top quality specimens (because of our weak currency). I recently attended a Gem and Mineral Show in Cape Town (I was the instigator but not the organiser of this Show). A dealer showed me a South African specimen. All it had on the price sticker was the figure "150". In South Africa he was selling it for R150, in Europe for 150 Euro and in the States for US$150!! (Now one must realise that in South Africa the exchange rate is approximately R10 to the Euro or dollar!!) (I personally would not even have bought the specimen at R150.) (This dealer does take part regularly in Shows in the USA, Europe and the United Kingdom - name withheld for obvious reasons)- Because certain people are willing to pay high prices (reasoning of course by the dealer, sell at what the market can take), they are unwittingly sounding the deathknell of our hobby?? This may rather sound pessimistic and will possibly result in a lot of comment. However, as we oldies talk about the "good old days", the present generation of mineral collectors will also most probably talk of the "good old days", thirty years from now!! So, am I now barking up the wrong tree, or do we just accept this as normal progress in our world?--- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold > At times it seems that way, but after visiting the Denver and Tucson Shows > and local shows many times during the last few decades, I've noted that > that is not realy true. It seems overwhelmingly true at times if one just > notes the big obvious material, but if one looks around, there are many > dealers with very good $1 to $20 specimens. > > I haven't seen one of these shows yet where a beginner would be unable to > find good $5 specimens. Of course it may be that I have a different > attitude than many. I like everything; a specimen doesn't have to look like > what is now a $10,000 rhodochrosite to be worth my $5. > > Regards, > > Lanny > > >Arkansas, indeed--I was thinking more about the kid with $5 in his pocket, > >living in Maine, who saved up his allowance for weeks, who can't get anything > >but junk for that money. Maybe it's not like that everywhere, but I think > >the > >price of specimens, even mediocre ones, has far outstripped the pace of > >inflation. > > > >DD > > > >> > Now a poor kid who wants to start > >> > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any > >> reasoable > >> > size or quality. -DH > >> > >> Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in Arkansas, > >> you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly get rid > >> of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> Tim Jokela Jr > >> tjokela@execulink.com > >> http://www.element51.com > >> http://www.ontariominerals.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and > mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index > and The Mineral Database > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 04:58:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gloria Hoover) Date: Sat Nov 16 04:58:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021115172612.020d8a90@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3DD640D5.62493527@earthlink.net> Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > Thanks for the recipe and the google search engine search words don't think I would have looked for coal garden. Gloria -- http://natures-emporium.com/ Jewelry, bookends, amethyst geodes, decor items, tumbled stones http://frontporchcoffee.com unroasted green coffee & custom roasted coffee From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 06:10:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 06:10:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Boji Stones Message-ID: <14c.17795667.2b07ab76@aol.com> We managed to pry that information out and got to see some pictures of a not very deep creek gully in a flat area with no visible geographic features. It is "near" the western state line, however. I was interested as a friend of mine specializes in pyrite. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 06:44:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 06:44:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <121.1a1db4ff.2b07b38b@aol.com> This is the age old problem of buying and selling. I saw a vanadinite with an old George English label, c. 1890's-1905 with a $1.50 price tag. This was a day's wages of 10-14 hours, more or less, at the time, for a laborer or factory worker. Except for any antique value of the labels, the specimen was so poor that it wouldn't bring $1.50 in today's market - about 10 minutes or less for a laborer or factory worker - depending on their seniority. Went to a local show recently and saw two dealers who had no specimens of interest to me, but who had what I thought were completely unrealistic prices in the $10-$30 price range. I don't think any of the veteran collectors would have helped perpetuate the dealer's expectations. Any sales, certainly came from the general public. Re: The international shows. There is a large cost to the dealer to attend these shows and the larger collecting population there assures that there are a few willing to pay a premium for the privilege of not having to travel to exotic countries, opportunity at antique specimens, etc. Most of these rooms remain unsold and there are dealers I know who have self-storage lockers in Tucson as well as Denver and the residue stock stays there until the next year. The Monday after Tucson is a great time to shop if you're in the market for lots of minerals. Entire rooms of good stuff become available at fire sale prices. What has impressed me the most has been the average collector's inability to know what the realistic price of a mineral should be. Of course, I've just implied that is the case in the above discussion. One of the reason's I attend mineral shows is to keep up with the general opinion on pricing. Once I was asked by an "Ivy League" college to re-appraise a million dollar donation they had received from a group of alumni. After examining the lot, I should where prices for the lots, of equal or better material, existed in current advertisements. The re-appraisal was $996,000 less than the attempted gift amount! The college refused the gift. One of the biggest concerns that dealers have is what they call "intermediate" desirability specimens. The profess an ability to sell the top end and the low end, but customers are few for the middle. The "middle" quality is probably the focus of most of our acquisitions. What keeps the market in check is the failure of specimens to sell at the initial price offered. Have been present at midnight sessions where stock transfers between dealers at a fraction of the public asking price as their customer base had seen the specimens and it is not good to have tired stock hanging around. Lastly, I might offer that there are probably so few "investors" who are not collectors of minerals that they do not affect the market appreciably. There was an investor market in collectibles including gems and minerals in the late 1970's and earliest 1980's but they discovered that collectibles were not a good investment when the rise in prices was only investor driven. I got a phone call from an eager buyer in 1980 who wanted to buy gemstones. I told him that I didn't have gemstones for sale. He told me had purchased some aquamarine for $400 per carat, etc. And after listening to his purchases, I asked: "If you are spending all this money, why don't you buy wholesale?" The attending silence could have gone into the Guiness Book of World Records. In a collectible, it is possible to buy wholesale and that is the same sort of "investing" as the food store does. Buy a liter of milk for $0.50 and sell it for $1. Even today, 20 years later, there are "investors" who bought at retail who cannot even recover their investment much less make an investors profit. If there are investors out there trying to buy minerals at retail, pass my name on to them as they need an advisor for hire. Van --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 07:02:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 07:02:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: In my own operation, as I stated before, I keep some cheapies on hand. I currently have a load of roughly 2x2 amethyst pieces that sell for about $2 each,,,, or whatever the kid has in his or her hand if less than that. I more than break even on these pieces when I factor in the joy I get from seeing a little excited face. Financially, I just about break even on these. No doubt some specimens have gone way above what they should be worth. We can bemoan that fact, or merely accept that as a product of a free economy and seek to find others that have not yet taken off, finding a degree of satisfaction in making those available to the beginners. As for museums, I thing Lanny Ream nailed it. There are lots more specimens in the hands of museums than will ever get display space and many of these got their start with private money and collections. Most museums, even world class ones, have to balance their mission to conduct research and to educate with the one of being a display place for pretty rocks or fossils. It's a tough balancing act that must occur within a budget. So if a local collector has some killer pieces that he likes to show in his home or at the local club show, maybe there is actually better public access by that mode. A good friend of mine and advanced mineral collector recently passed away and the estate is planning on donating his collection to the local museum. I have mixed feelings about that. The idea of donating it is a good one but I question whether that museum in particular has the expertise and committment to properly maintain it. Years ago I tried to help them make heads or tails out of their fossils housed in the back rooms. It was frustrating and very disappointing. Extremely unusual specimens where housed with junk. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 07:10:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 07:10:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <1c2.1a5a364.2b07b967@aol.com> Wished I'd thought of it. One kid remarked that I looked like Santa Claus. Maybe it's time for hair dye as well as that spray on hair. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 07:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rollins) Date: Sat Nov 16 07:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] coal experiment References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3DD66225.98FFC3E6@rose.net> Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > >Remember the old kids experiment with the household chemicals sprinkled > >on coal? > > > The recipe includes bluing, > which I know can be found, but is not usually considered part of the > average household supplies nowadays. Let me know if you want it. > Aloha, Kitty > I found Blueing at Burlington Towel Outlet. It is not cheap. About $4 for 5-6 ozs. So, it can still be found. The coal was most likely just to make the crystals show up better on the black background and to provide a substrate for them to grow on. By the way, just what is Blueing? I know what it is used for but what is it made of? James A. Rollins [mailto:willows@rose.net] From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 07:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 07:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: Having been a kid growing up in Maine with only $5 in his pocket I can relate to what you say. Used to have to hitchhike to Newry from home. Actually hitchhiked to the "Black Forest" of Greenwood, once. Also rode a one-speed bicycle to Palermo pegmatite in New Hampshire, although I did get quite a few rides in the back of a pickup truck. When one gets out into the hinterlands, it is possible to buy some rocks which please you at a price below show prices, but there is also the fun and cost of traveling to each pile of rocks. Also remember, the highest prices paid for USA locality minerals is usually nearest to the locality. True in Maine or Franklin, NJ and elsewhere. Not true in many countries, however. The exception seems to be the Munchen or Tucson caliber specimens, although Brazilian minerals, by the piece, are usually cheaper at Tucson, by the piece, than are generally available in Brazil. All bets are off if you can buy wholesale quantities. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 07:33:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 07:33:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <41.26c110a2.2b07bf13@aol.com> It has been estimated that 95% of all "museum grade" objects are in private hands. Accepting that the quality "museum-grade" isn't trivialized and that the rough estimate isn't too rough, it would seem that there is a storage problem that we as collectors like to resolve. To be sure, a high percentage of certain classes of objects only exist in institutional hands, most of the old art masters' works are in museums already and the trend will continue that benefactors will donate many of those on the loose as the years go by. Have earmarked a portion of my collection for donation. Have also worked with museums who receive donations which they must refuse for space considerations. (During the 1970's and 1980's, some mineral museums discovered that the mineral objects not on display made great trading fodder which could be converted into the items they wanted. The "museum" specimens they unloaded became commercial objects traded today. One museum was notorious for deaccessing truly remarkable stuff because they had an "acquisition policy" regarded as foolish by onlookers.) Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 07:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 07:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: "Back East", this is called the El Paso principle. Dick Hauck and his brother Bob went into a rock shop in the 1960's and noticed a specialized specimen. Dick asked if it were for sale. The reply: "Sonny, you don't have enough money to buy that piece. Why, I've refused $25,000 for that specimen." After the brothers left the shop, they regretted that there had been two fools in the shop at the same time: the one who offered the fabulous price and the one who refused it. They developed a philosophy that if you'd offered a fabulous price for an object "not for sale", consider it. Many collectors have observed this philosophy, from both ends. Sort of like asking someone to do something for a million dollars. If the answer is "Yes", the reply might be: Would you consider it for $5. If the answer is "No, whom do you think I am?" The counter reply would be, "That's already established. We're just haggling." Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 09:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Nov 16 09:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: <000401c28d3f$0d9acca0$b83f27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <000801c28d95$7c0d86e0$279e77d5@pandora.be> That's about how I think about it... Last year we had a dealer at our mineral fair (not really small for an indoor fair as you can see: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html#FOTO )who had some REALLY beautiful corundum on matrix. Nice fluorescence, several cm large XX and high prices. Almost four times of what I was willing to pay for them (and what they were worth). I asked the dealer why they were so expensive and he told me flat-out that he had bought practically all the specimens and thus controlled the price. He was indeed the only dealer that had any. Moreover, he said, it was a new locality so it was normal that prices were high... I said to the guy that I would come back next year, when the locality wasn't new anymore and walked away. At the end af the fair I saw him packing his specimens... he didn't sell much, and that's how it should be. Next time he'll be more reasonable. cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "horstwindisch" To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | Hi list, | | I may be going off on a tangent with this very interesting topic. As | everyone agrees mineral prices keep on rising, year after year and very few | see this as us being our own worst enemy. We are basically "killing" our | hobby-and eventually it will become an "elitist" hobby (for those with | enough money) and will be "lost" to the "man-in-the-street". Claus Hedegaard | recently touched upon this aspect in an article (in either "Rock and Gem" or | " Rocks and Minerals"). We are pricing ourselves out of the hobby, the way | prices are escalating at the moment. | | Also look at any monthly meeting of a Gem and Mineral Club or an outing - | how many young people do you see? When I started in the hobby )more than 35 | years ago), we were all youngsters of about the same age, used to take our | pre-school or school-going kids on outings. What do you see today? Mostly | oldies and very few youngsters!! I attended the "cracker-barrel" session of | the AFMS Show in Tampa in 1991, where the subject of the follow-up | generation of gem and mineral collectors was discussed for at least an hour | and a half, but nobody seemed to have clear-cut solutions. Let's also add, | this is a worldwoide phenomenon, not only peculiar to the USA. Money is | certainly playing a role in this scene!! | | Although these comments come from the tip of Africa and I have not had the | opportunity in attending many shows in the USA and Europe it did strike me | (and I have heard similar comments from collectors in the States and Europe) | that many collectors only attend Tucson or Munich to have a look, not to | buy. The prices are exorbitant in many cases. Lesser shows may still deliver | more bargains for the beginner and advanced collector. | | Another aspect (from a South African point of view) is that I cannot afford | the prices charged at Tucson and Munich for top quality specimens (because | of our weak currency). I recently attended a Gem and Mineral Show in Cape | Town (I was the instigator but not the organiser of this Show). A dealer | showed me a South African specimen. All it had on the price sticker was the | figure "150". In South Africa he was selling it for R150, in Europe for 150 | Euro and in the States for US$150!! (Now one must realise that in South | Africa the exchange rate is approximately R10 to the Euro or dollar!!) (I | personally would not even have bought the specimen at R150.) (This dealer | does take part regularly in Shows in the USA, Europe and the United | Kingdom - name withheld for obvious reasons)- | | Because certain people are willing to pay high prices (reasoning of course | by the dealer, sell at what the market can take), they are unwittingly | sounding the deathknell of our hobby?? This may rather sound pessimistic | and will possibly result in a lot of comment. However, as we oldies talk | about the "good old days", the present generation of mineral collectors will | also most probably talk of the "good old days", thirty years from now!! So, | am I now barking up the wrong tree, or do we just accept this as normal | progress in our world?--- Original Message ----- | From: | To: | Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 7:40 PM | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | | | > At times it seems that way, but after visiting the Denver and Tucson | Shows | > and local shows many times during the last few decades, I've noted that | > that is not realy true. It seems overwhelmingly true at times if one just | > notes the big obvious material, but if one looks around, there are many | > dealers with very good $1 to $20 specimens. | > | > I haven't seen one of these shows yet where a beginner would be unable to | > find good $5 specimens. Of course it may be that I have a different | > attitude than many. I like everything; a specimen doesn't have to look | like | > what is now a $10,000 rhodochrosite to be worth my $5. | > | > Regards, | > | > Lanny | > | > >Arkansas, indeed--I was thinking more about the kid with $5 in his | pocket, | > >living in Maine, who saved up his allowance for weeks, who can't get | anything | > >but junk for that money. Maybe it's not like that everywhere, but I | think | > >the | > >price of specimens, even mediocre ones, has far outstripped the pace of | > >inflation. | > > | > >DD | > > | > >> > Now a poor kid who wants to start | > >> > collection can't even afford a nice terminated quartz crystal of any | > >> reasoable | > >> > size or quality. -DH | > >> | > >> Oh, I don't think it's that bad. Spend a day or two collecting in | Arkansas, | > >> you'll pick up more than you can give away in five years. Can hardly | get rid | > >> of the stuff. Quartz xls will never be priced beyond anyone's means. | > >> | > >> Cheers, | > >> | > >> Tim Jokela Jr | > >> tjokela@execulink.com | > >> http://www.element51.com | > >> http://www.ontariominerals.com | > >> | > >> | > >> _______________________________________________ | > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > >> Subscription Services: | > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > >_______________________________________________ | > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > >Subscription Services: | > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > | > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - | > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com | > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing | > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and | > mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index | > and The Mineral Database | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 09:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ydain) Date: Sat Nov 16 09:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> Message-ID: <003f01c28d97$f1b452a0$a08a3051@z3e0m1> You must be carreful with kids : most of chimical solutions used for growing crystals are toxic !! You can do some silver crystals with copper and "nitrate d'argent" (in fench !). I can send a world file (.doc) for those who are interested Y. Dain French collector of minerals http://www.chez.com/mineralzine/ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 10:38:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 10:38:00 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jimmy, There is, at least for a few more months, a good new mineral museum in Vancouver, BC. The Pacific Mineral Musuem; unfortunately it appears that it will soon be closed, after only about 2 years of existence. The Burke Museum at U. of Wash. apparently has some good specimens, but generally it is not well currated. Volunteers work on it periodically, but between those episodes it typically gathers dust. The Montana B. of Mines and Geol. on the Montana Tech campus in Butte has a good museum, small, but some good NW pieces, and there is the World Museum of Mining nearby. There is the Crater Rock Museum near Medford, OR which apparently has some good mineral displays and a lot of lapidary and Indian artifacts. This museum may be getting a big boost in mineral displays due to a connection I coordinated through a third party who wants to donate a "million dollar collection." Other than that, there are small, private collections that are available on occasion. In general, those collections listed above are small and vary from not well taken care of to well curated, but limited in size. Only the Butte museum appears to have any interest in a reference collection, and for that mostly just Montana minerals. Regards, Lanny > >But apart from the Rice Museum, what are some others in the area that have >mineral displays? > >Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our club, I've been doing a series on >mineral displays of various museums that I've had the benefit to visit in my >travels. > >I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum, the Field Museum in Chicago, >and an unpublished one on the San Antonio Museum of Art. > >I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to Tucson. > >Jimmy >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 10:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Stockwell) Date: Sat Nov 16 10:52:00 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <3DD6A9CC.D6CC61A@ix.netcom.com> The Crater Rock Museum's collection of thunder eggs, other agates, and wood may be unsurpassed. These take up all the presently existing space, I believe, so adding a mineral collection, I believe, probably would require building a new wing. John lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > Jimmy, > > There is, at least for a few more months, a good new mineral museum in > Vancouver, BC. The Pacific Mineral Musuem; unfortunately it appears that it > will soon be closed, after only about 2 years of existence. > > The Burke Museum at U. of Wash. apparently has some good specimens, but > generally it is not well currated. Volunteers work on it periodically, but > between those episodes it typically gathers dust. > > The Montana B. of Mines and Geol. on the Montana Tech campus in Butte has > a good museum, small, but some good NW pieces, and there is the World > Museum of Mining nearby. > > There is the Crater Rock Museum near Medford, OR which apparently has some > good mineral displays and a lot of lapidary and Indian artifacts. This > museum may be getting a big boost in mineral displays due to a connection I > coordinated through a third party who wants to donate a "million dollar > collection." > > Other than that, there are small, private collections that are available on > occasion. In general, those collections listed above are small and vary > from not well taken care of to well curated, but limited in size. Only the > Butte museum appears to have any interest in a reference collection, and > for that mostly just Montana minerals. > > Regards, > > Lanny > > > > >But apart from the Rice Museum, what are some others in the area that have > >mineral displays? > > > >Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our club, I've been doing a series on > >mineral displays of various museums that I've had the benefit to visit in my > >travels. > > > >I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum, the Field Museum in Chicago, > >and an unpublished one on the San Antonio Museum of Art. > > > >I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to Tucson. > > > >Jimmy > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and > mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index > and The Mineral Database > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 12:48:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Sat Nov 16 12:48:01 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <001f01c28db1$7e7cef80$71c494d1@remains> and do you know why the Vancouver Mineral Museum is closing? essentially, poor management and unreal expectations. A friend of mine helped out a great deal in setting that place up...offered invaluable advice, lots of help....all kinds of assistance; all free of charge. When it was finally completed, the manager had the audacity to expect him to pay the admission amount (like everyone else) just to see the place. A little ungrateful, if you ask me. Unfortunately, this was the type of attitude myself and others encountered when dealing with certain individuals associated with the operation of this place. Specimens mislabeled, misidentified, unknown locations...etc. Towards the end, a very lacksidaisical attitude concerning the "science" behind the place. A shame, really, as it could have been really great....... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold > Jimmy, > > There is, at least for a few more months, a good new mineral museum in > Vancouver, BC. The Pacific Mineral Musuem; unfortunately it appears that it > will soon be closed, after only about 2 years of existence. > > The Burke Museum at U. of Wash. apparently has some good specimens, but > generally it is not well currated. Volunteers work on it periodically, but > between those episodes it typically gathers dust. > > The Montana B. of Mines and Geol. on the Montana Tech campus in Butte has > a good museum, small, but some good NW pieces, and there is the World > Museum of Mining nearby. > > There is the Crater Rock Museum near Medford, OR which apparently has some > good mineral displays and a lot of lapidary and Indian artifacts. This > museum may be getting a big boost in mineral displays due to a connection I > coordinated through a third party who wants to donate a "million dollar > collection." > > Other than that, there are small, private collections that are available on > occasion. In general, those collections listed above are small and vary > from not well taken care of to well curated, but limited in size. Only the > Butte museum appears to have any interest in a reference collection, and > for that mostly just Montana minerals. > > Regards, > > Lanny > > > > > > >But apart from the Rice Museum, what are some others in the area that have > >mineral displays? > > > >Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our club, I've been doing a series on > >mineral displays of various museums that I've had the benefit to visit in my > >travels. > > > >I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum, the Field Museum in Chicago, > >and an unpublished one on the San Antonio Museum of Art. > > > >I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to Tucson. > > > >Jimmy > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and > mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index > and The Mineral Database > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 13:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Sat Nov 16 13:21:01 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: The collection is pretty nice though. Some very nice samples and a good gold collection. A small flourescent display. And a nice, but small, rocks of the area exhibit. However, it took less than an hour to get through. Jimmy On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:48:16 -0700 Michael Schmidt wrote: > and do you know why the Vancouver Mineral > Museum is closing? > > essentially, poor management and unreal > expectations. > > A friend of mine helped out a great deal in > setting that place up...offered > invaluable advice, lots of help....all kinds of > assistance; all free of > charge. When it was finally completed, the > manager had the audacity to > expect him to pay the admission amount (like > everyone else) just to see the > place. A little ungrateful, if you ask me. > > Unfortunately, this was the type of attitude > myself and others encountered > when dealing with certain individuals > associated with the operation of this > place. Specimens mislabeled, misidentified, > unknown locations...etc. > Towards the end, a very lacksidaisical attitude > concerning the "science" > behind the place. > > A shame, really, as it could have been really > great....... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:19 AM > Subject: Re: Museums in the NW (USA) was: > [Rockhounds] gold > > > > Jimmy, > > > > There is, at least for a few more months, a > good new mineral museum in > > Vancouver, BC. The Pacific Mineral Musuem; > unfortunately it appears that > it > > will soon be closed, after only about 2 years > of existence. > > > > The Burke Museum at U. of Wash. apparently > has some good specimens, but > > generally it is not well currated. Volunteers > work on it periodically, but > > between those episodes it typically gathers > dust. > > > > The Montana B. of Mines and Geol. on the > Montana Tech campus in Butte has > > a good museum, small, but some good NW > pieces, and there is the World > > Museum of Mining nearby. > > > > There is the Crater Rock Museum near Medford, > OR which apparently has some > > good mineral displays and a lot of lapidary > and Indian artifacts. This > > museum may be getting a big boost in mineral > displays due to a connection > I > > coordinated through a third party who wants > to donate a "million dollar > > collection." > > > > Other than that, there are small, private > collections that are available > on > > occasion. In general, those collections > listed above are small and vary > > from not well taken care of to well curated, > but limited in size. Only the > > Butte museum appears to have any interest in > a reference collection, and > > for that mostly just Montana minerals. > > > > Regards, > > > > Lanny > > > > > > > > > > > >But apart from the Rice Museum, what are > some others in the area that > have > > >mineral displays? > > > > > >Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our > club, I've been doing a series on > > >mineral displays of various museums that > I've had the benefit to visit in > my > > >travels. > > > > > >I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals > Museum, the Field Museum in > Chicago, > > >and an unpublished one on the San Antonio > Museum of Art. > > > > > >I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to > Tucson. > > > > > >Jimmy > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > >Subscription Services: > > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - - - - - - - - - - > > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - > http://www.mineralnews.com > > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral > guidebooks and > > mineral software: MinDex: the > Mineral-Periodical Index > > and The Mineral Database > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 13:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Sat Nov 16 13:35:01 2002 Subject: museum grade, was: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: In all this talk, I would ask the question, "what is 'museum quality' or 'museum grade'? Is that a different connotation than, "what I would like to see in a museum"? Because, what I want to see in a museum are of two classes. 1) So fine that the piece needs care and protection. 2) So distinguishable that it can be used as reference, and thus is attached an educational story to go with the piece. When I go to a museum, I don't want to just leave with the feeling that the pieces were simply impressive, but two years later (or tomorrow), because the image is not fresh in my mind, I would have forgotten... I want to leave feeling enriched with knowledge, especially of the locale. If I can pick up an interesting rock outside, I would want to see a story about such rocks inside. Jimmy On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:32:35 EST ANNWB2@aol.com wrote: > It has been estimated that 95% of all "museum > grade" objects are in private > hands. Accepting that the quality > "museum-grade" isn't trivialized and that > the rough estimate isn't too rough, it would > seem that there is a storage > problem that we as collectors like to resolve. > To be sure, a high percentage > of certain classes of objects only exist in > institutional hands, most of the > old art masters' works are in museums already > and the trend will continue > that benefactors will donate many of those on > the loose as the years go by. > Have earmarked a portion of my collection for > donation. Have also worked with > museums who receive donations which they must > refuse for space > considerations. (During the 1970's and 1980's, > some mineral museums > discovered that the mineral objects not on > display made great trading fodder > which could be converted into the items they > wanted. The "museum" specimens > they unloaded became commercial objects traded > today. One museum was > notorious for deaccessing truly remarkable > stuff because they had an > "acquisition policy" regarded as foolish by > onlookers.) > > Van > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 14:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Sat Nov 16 14:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20021115210412.027e1f60@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: When I was a kid, I saw a demonstration with a conus of which the top was put in fire, and the whole thing reacted like a real volcano. I remember vaguely that it was some mercury containing compound (at that time mercury was not yet poisonous, dangerous etc.) :>))) Does somebody have a clue ? Being a chemist myself I am a bit ashamed about the fact that I don't remember... Greetings, Rik Dillen -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Nathan C. Martin II Sent: 16 November, 2002 2:09 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING For teaching materials on volcanos go to http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of time. Good luck! Nate Martin Lexington, MA At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: >Hello >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' >for a gem and mineral club. > >she is looking for experiments such as >this - growing crystals - that younger >'pebble pups' can do. > >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. > >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! > >Thank you >GeorgiaO >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 14:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Nov 16 14:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: Message-ID: <001401c28dbf$f02ac540$279e77d5@pandora.be> I remember the same thing... only, I thought it was based on potassiumdichromate and cellulose or sugar. Either way, chromium is a heavy metal, poisonous and the hexavalent form can cause cancer. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Dillen" To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:04 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | When I was a kid, I saw a demonstration with a conus of which the top was | put in fire, and the whole thing reacted like a real volcano. I remember | vaguely that it was some mercury containing compound (at that time mercury | was not yet poisonous, dangerous etc.) :>))) | Does somebody have a clue ? Being a chemist myself I am a bit ashamed about | the fact that I don't remember... | | Greetings, | | Rik Dillen | | | -----Original Message----- | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Nathan C. Martin | II | Sent: 16 November, 2002 2:09 AM | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | | | For teaching materials on volcanos go to | http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html | | I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub | scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This | makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of time. | | Good luck! | | Nate Martin | Lexington, MA | | At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: | >Hello | >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' | >for a gem and mineral club. | > | >she is looking for experiments such as | >this - growing crystals - that younger | >'pebble pups' can do. | > | >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. | > | >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing | >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! | > | >Thank you | >GeorgiaO | >_______________________________________________ | >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | >Subscription Services: | >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 19:02:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (The Mineral Vug) Date: Sat Nov 16 19:02:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: 25% Site Wide Sale Message-ID: Hello All: Just in time for those Christmas gifts for your collector, The Mineral Vug wishes to invite all to view our galleries during our 25% off site wide sale. This sale is on all Specimens except those in the Bargain Basement. This Sale will go through the rest of November. Regards, Brett Shaffer The Mineral Vug www.themineralvug.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 19:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Nov 16 19:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <001401c28dbf$f02ac540$279e77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3DD707BA.295F@Tomaszewski.net> I agree that potassium dichromate was the main ingredient. Sugar, sulfur, iron filings, potassium permangnate (or nitrate), and/or other materials were often added to enhance the effect. I used 'jetex' fuse to ignite mine, but my friend put on a dropperfull of alcohol and lit that. I could get a 6 oz bottle of potassium dichromate for about $3 at the corner pharmacy (my Dad had to come with me the first time for each new chemical); I'm still amazed that the pharmacist (Ray Hanson) could always measure out _from_the_shelf_ any chemical I ever asked for. But that was a long time ago and chemicals are harder to come by. Kreigh Axel Emmermann wrote: > > I remember the same thing... only, I thought it was based on > potassiumdichromate and cellulose or sugar. > Either way, chromium is a heavy metal, poisonous and the hexavalent form can > cause cancer. > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rik Dillen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:04 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING > > | When I was a kid, I saw a demonstration with a conus of which the top was > | put in fire, and the whole thing reacted like a real volcano. I remember > | vaguely that it was some mercury containing compound (at that time mercury > | was not yet poisonous, dangerous etc.) :>))) > | Does somebody have a clue ? Being a chemist myself I am a bit ashamed > about > | the fact that I don't remember... > | > | Greetings, > | > | Rik Dillen > | > | > | -----Original Message----- > | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Nathan C. Martin > | II > | Sent: 16 November, 2002 2:09 AM > | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING > | > | > | For teaching materials on volcanos go to > | http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html > | > | I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub > | scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This > | makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of > time. > | > | Good luck! > | > | Nate Martin > | Lexington, MA > | > | At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: > | >Hello > | >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' > | >for a gem and mineral club. > | > > | >she is looking for experiments such as > | >this - growing crystals - that younger > | >'pebble pups' can do. > | > > | >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. > | > > | >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing > | >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! > | > > | >Thank you > | >GeorgiaO > | >_______________________________________________ > | >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | >Subscription Services: > | >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 16 21:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Nov 16 21:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: What happens when the museum gets a second one that is better than the first one and then just trashes the inferior one by "storing" it in some out of the way place for some time and then disposes of it in the trash because it has been mishandled and ruined. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 04:58:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Nov 17 04:58:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <001401c28dbf$f02ac540$279e77d5@pandora.be> <3DD707BA.295F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001e01c28e3a$491426e0$169f77d5@pandora.be> There is still one pharmacist in Antwerp that has quite a range of chemicals and glassware for lab use. He won't sell to kids though... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | I agree that potassium dichromate was the main ingredient. Sugar, | sulfur, iron filings, potassium permangnate (or nitrate), and/or other | materials were often added to enhance the effect. I used 'jetex' fuse to | ignite mine, but my friend put on a dropperfull of alcohol and lit that. | I could get a 6 oz bottle of potassium dichromate for about $3 at the | corner pharmacy (my Dad had to come with me the first time for each new | chemical); I'm still amazed that the pharmacist (Ray Hanson) could | always measure out _from_the_shelf_ any chemical I ever asked for. But | that was a long time ago and chemicals are harder to come by. | | Kreigh | | | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | > I remember the same thing... only, I thought it was based on | > potassiumdichromate and cellulose or sugar. | > Either way, chromium is a heavy metal, poisonous and the hexavalent form can | > cause cancer. | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Rik Dillen" | > To: | > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:04 PM | > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | > | > | When I was a kid, I saw a demonstration with a conus of which the top was | > | put in fire, and the whole thing reacted like a real volcano. I remember | > | vaguely that it was some mercury containing compound (at that time mercury | > | was not yet poisonous, dangerous etc.) :>))) | > | Does somebody have a clue ? Being a chemist myself I am a bit ashamed | > about | > | the fact that I don't remember... | > | | > | Greetings, | > | | > | Rik Dillen | > | | > | | > | -----Original Message----- | > | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com | > | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Nathan C. Martin | > | II | > | Sent: 16 November, 2002 2:09 AM | > | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | > | | > | | > | For teaching materials on volcanos go to | > | http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html | > | | > | I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub | > | scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This | > | makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of | > time. | > | | > | Good luck! | > | | > | Nate Martin | > | Lexington, MA | > | | > | At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: | > | >Hello | > | >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' | > | >for a gem and mineral club. | > | > | > | >she is looking for experiments such as | > | >this - growing crystals - that younger | > | >'pebble pups' can do. | > | > | > | >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. | > | > | > | >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing | > | >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! | > | > | > | >Thank you | > | >GeorgiaO | > | >_______________________________________________ | > | >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | >Subscription Services: | > | >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 05:03:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Nov 17 05:03:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <002d01c28e3a$ee922e00$169f77d5@pandora.be> We (the Belgian FMS group) were once allowed "backstage" to survey the colplete collection of the Royle Belgian Institute of Natural History in Brussels. You would be amazed how much historically significant an great looking specimen are kept in drawers there. They don't compare to those in display but some are more than interesting and are actually used for research sometimes. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold | What happens when the museum gets a second one that is better than the first | one and then just trashes the inferior one by "storing" it in some out of the | way place for some time and then disposes of it in the trash because it has | been mishandled and ruined. | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 09:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Nov 17 09:47:00 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <3DD6A9CC.D6CC61A@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: Hi John, Apparently you've seen the collection. Frank C. says the existing mineral collection is also very good. In your opinion is that true? The offer from the benefactor includes the necessary new wing, and the last word was that it was all agreed on. Lanny >The Crater Rock Museum's collection of thunder eggs, other agates, and >wood may be >unsurpassed. These take up all the presently existing space, I believe, so >adding >a mineral collection, I believe, probably would require building a new wing. > >John > >lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > >> Jimmy, >> >> There is, at least for a few more months, a good new mineral museum in >> Vancouver, BC. The Pacific Mineral Musuem; unfortunately it appears that it >> will soon be closed, after only about 2 years of existence. >> >> The Burke Museum at U. of Wash. apparently has some good specimens, but >> generally it is not well currated. Volunteers work on it periodically, but >> between those episodes it typically gathers dust. >> >> The Montana B. of Mines and Geol. on the Montana Tech campus in Butte has >> a good museum, small, but some good NW pieces, and there is the World >> Museum of Mining nearby. >> >> There is the Crater Rock Museum near Medford, OR which apparently has some >> good mineral displays and a lot of lapidary and Indian artifacts. This >> museum may be getting a big boost in mineral displays due to a connection I >> coordinated through a third party who wants to donate a "million dollar >> collection." >> >> Other than that, there are small, private collections that are available on >> occasion. In general, those collections listed above are small and vary >> from not well taken care of to well curated, but limited in size. Only the >> Butte museum appears to have any interest in a reference collection, and >> for that mostly just Montana minerals. >> >> Regards, >> >> Lanny >> >> > >> >But apart from the Rice Museum, what are some others in the area that have >> >mineral displays? >> > >> >Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our club, I've been doing a series on >> >mineral displays of various museums that I've had the benefit to visit >>in my >> >travels. >> > >> >I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum, the Field Museum in >>Chicago, >> >and an unpublished one on the San Antonio Museum of Art. >> > >> >I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to Tucson. >> > >> >Jimmy >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> >Subscription Services: >> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com >> Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing >> Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and >> mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index >> and The Mineral Database >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 12:58:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Sun Nov 17 12:58:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING In-Reply-To: <3DD707BA.295F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: I saw various recipes (thank you all !), but not the one I recognize. What I remember was a conus that, once the top was put on fire, started to burn internally, with a rising volume of the volcano and "lava" flowing steadily out of the top. Most of the recipes I have seen here are either based on carbonate/acid reactions, or on quite vigorous iron/oxidant reactions. I think that perhaps mercury thiocyanate was involved... And as I was writing this message, I found a trace towards the solution of the mystery. In a quite old book on inorganic chemistry "Mellor's Modern (what's in a name !) Inorganic Chemistry", 1963, I read on page 731 under Mercuric thiocyanate : ... which when ignited forms a voluminous ash. Pellets made from the dry powder, when ignited, form long snake-like tubes of ash, the so-called Pharaoh's serpents" And than, of course, I looked somewhat further on the Internet, and the following relevant hit came up with Google : http://yarchive.net/explosives/firework_snakes.html Mercury thiocyanate can be precipitated by mixing an solution of potassium thiocyanate, KSCN, and mercuric chloride, HgCl2. BEWARE : the production of the mentioned "Pharaoh's serpents" yields mercury containing vapours. Do not think about doing such experiments if you are not a qualified expert in the field. Greetings, Rik -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: 17 November, 2002 4:12 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING I agree that potassium dichromate was the main ingredient. Sugar, sulfur, iron filings, potassium permangnate (or nitrate), and/or other materials were often added to enhance the effect. I used 'jetex' fuse to ignite mine, but my friend put on a dropperfull of alcohol and lit that. I could get a 6 oz bottle of potassium dichromate for about $3 at the corner pharmacy (my Dad had to come with me the first time for each new chemical); I'm still amazed that the pharmacist (Ray Hanson) could always measure out _from_the_shelf_ any chemical I ever asked for. But that was a long time ago and chemicals are harder to come by. Kreigh Axel Emmermann wrote: > > I remember the same thing... only, I thought it was based on > potassiumdichromate and cellulose or sugar. > Either way, chromium is a heavy metal, poisonous and the hexavalent form can > cause cancer. > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rik Dillen" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:04 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING > > | When I was a kid, I saw a demonstration with a conus of which the top was > | put in fire, and the whole thing reacted like a real volcano. I remember > | vaguely that it was some mercury containing compound (at that time mercury > | was not yet poisonous, dangerous etc.) :>))) > | Does somebody have a clue ? Being a chemist myself I am a bit ashamed > about > | the fact that I don't remember... > | > | Greetings, > | > | Rik Dillen > | > | > | -----Original Message----- > | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Nathan C. Martin > | II > | Sent: 16 November, 2002 2:09 AM > | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING > | > | > | For teaching materials on volcanos go to > | http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html > | > | I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with cub > | scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This > | makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of > time. > | > | Good luck! > | > | Nate Martin > | Lexington, MA > | > | At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: > | >Hello > | >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' > | >for a gem and mineral club. > | > > | >she is looking for experiments such as > | >this - growing crystals - that younger > | >'pebble pups' can do. > | > > | >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. > | > > | >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing > | >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! > | > > | >Thank you > | >GeorgiaO > | >_______________________________________________ > | >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | >Subscription Services: > | >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 12:58:38 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Sun Nov 17 12:58:38 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] gold In-Reply-To: <121.1a1db4ff.2b07b38b@aol.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of ANNWB2@aol.com Sent: 16 November, 2002 3:43 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] gold This is the age old problem of buying and selling. I saw a vanadinite with an old George English label, c. 1890's-1905 with a $1.50 price tag. This was a day's wages of 10-14 hours, more or less, at the time, for a laborer or factory worker. Except for any antique value of the labels, the specimen was so poor that it wouldn't bring $1.50 in today's market - about 10 minutes or less for a laborer or factory worker - depending on their seniority. >>>>> A would like to add that long ago (meaning the fifties and older), in many cases the quality of specimens "for routine use" that were sold was VERY poor, so poor that many of us wouldn't even take it home for free. I acquired an old collection early this year with many labeled didactical specimens of "Krantz Rheinisches Mineralienkontor" in Bonn, Germany (labels are all from the period 1900 -1 1950). Many of the specimens that belong to such a label are not even worth 1 (one !) USD/EUR. I think that at present collectors want better quality than in the early days of mineral collecting. I am not speaking, of course, about some historical very important finds of exceptional specimens. Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show 10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 14:01:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Nov 17 14:01:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: Message-ID: <002d01c28e86$097c5420$169f77d5@pandora.be> This somehow makes my skin crawl, Rik... Brrrrr... I played with that stuff so much that it's a miracle that I don't suffer from Minamata disease. Pyrotechnics... pieeew! It's a good thing that plutonium is so expensive! Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Dillen" To: Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | I saw various recipes (thank you all !), but not the one I recognize. What I | remember was a conus that, once the top was put on fire, started to burn | internally, with a rising volume of the volcano and "lava" flowing steadily | out of the top. Most of the recipes I have seen here are either based on | carbonate/acid reactions, or on quite vigorous iron/oxidant reactions. I | think that perhaps mercury thiocyanate was involved... | | And as I was writing this message, I found a trace towards the solution of | the mystery. In a quite old book on inorganic chemistry "Mellor's Modern | (what's in a name !) Inorganic Chemistry", 1963, I read on page 731 under | Mercuric thiocyanate : ... which when ignited forms a voluminous ash. | Pellets made from the dry powder, when ignited, form long snake-like tubes | of ash, the so-called Pharaoh's serpents" | | And than, of course, I looked somewhat further on the Internet, and the | following relevant hit came up with Google : | http://yarchive.net/explosives/firework_snakes.html | | Mercury thiocyanate can be precipitated by mixing an solution of potassium | thiocyanate, KSCN, and mercuric chloride, HgCl2. | BEWARE : the production of the mentioned "Pharaoh's serpents" yields mercury | containing vapours. Do not think about doing such experiments if you are not | a qualified expert in the field. | | Greetings, | | Rik | | -----Original Message----- | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Kreigh | Tomaszewski | Sent: 17 November, 2002 4:12 AM | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | | | I agree that potassium dichromate was the main ingredient. Sugar, | sulfur, iron filings, potassium permangnate (or nitrate), and/or other | materials were often added to enhance the effect. I used 'jetex' fuse to | ignite mine, but my friend put on a dropperfull of alcohol and lit that. | I could get a 6 oz bottle of potassium dichromate for about $3 at the | corner pharmacy (my Dad had to come with me the first time for each new | chemical); I'm still amazed that the pharmacist (Ray Hanson) could | always measure out _from_the_shelf_ any chemical I ever asked for. But | that was a long time ago and chemicals are harder to come by. | | Kreigh | | | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | > I remember the same thing... only, I thought it was based on | > potassiumdichromate and cellulose or sugar. | > Either way, chromium is a heavy metal, poisonous and the hexavalent form | can | > cause cancer. | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Rik Dillen" | > To: | > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:04 PM | > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | > | > | When I was a kid, I saw a demonstration with a conus of which the top | was | > | put in fire, and the whole thing reacted like a real volcano. I remember | > | vaguely that it was some mercury containing compound (at that time | mercury | > | was not yet poisonous, dangerous etc.) :>))) | > | Does somebody have a clue ? Being a chemist myself I am a bit ashamed | > about | > | the fact that I don't remember... | > | | > | Greetings, | > | | > | Rik Dillen | > | | > | | > | -----Original Message----- | > | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com | > | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Nathan C. Martin | > | II | > | Sent: 16 November, 2002 2:09 AM | > | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING | > | | > | | > | For teaching materials on volcanos go to | > | http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/learning.html | > | | > | I have used the paper volcano model (item #9) with great success with | cub | > | scout groups. Print out the model onto heavy report cover stock. This | > | makes a good craft project that can be completed in a short amount of | > time. | > | | > | Good luck! | > | | > | Nate Martin | > | Lexington, MA | > | | > | At 09:57 PM 11/15/2002, you wrote: | > | >Hello | > | >I help a person that gives programs for 'kids' | > | >for a gem and mineral club. | > | > | > | >she is looking for experiments such as | > | >this - growing crystals - that younger | > | >'pebble pups' can do. | > | > | > | >Actually will be teaching a class tomorrow. | > | > | > | >If you have any more 'recipies' for growing | > | >crystals, making volcanoes, etc. - would be great! | > | > | > | >Thank you | > | >GeorgiaO | > | >_______________________________________________ | > | >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | >Subscription Services: | > | >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 14:25:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ydain) Date: Sun Nov 17 14:25:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] CRYSTAL GROWING References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021115143344.020d8b50@mail.aloha.net> <3DD59E97.F7662979@earthlink.net> <3DD5A5FD.3A7F@rcn.com> Message-ID: <000c01c28e88$1ab28a00$92c90b50@z3e0m1> I just remind me a "recipe" you can do with kids : a wonderful recipe : go at this page : (in french) http://www.ac-reims.fr/datice/svt/modelisation/vanilline.htm see the "protocole" and click on "animation" Y. Dain French collector of minerals http://www.chez.com/mineralzine/ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 17 14:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Nov 17 14:57:01 2002 Subject: museum grade, was: [Rockhounds] gold Message-ID: <1be.14ae82eb.2b097880@aol.com> In a message dated 11/16/02 1:35:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, cjkuo13@earthlink.net writes: > "what is 'museum quality' or 'museum grade'? > I was at the California State Gem Museum in Sonora, CA about 2 1/2 years ago. They were selling 100s of the little perky boxes with specimens in them for $2 each. Each box had a small label with location information, etc. The curator of the museum said a mineral collector had left the specimens to the museum when he died. They didn't need them for display so they decided selling them was their best option. Nobody knew how to value them so everything was $2. The curator, who was really a State Park Ranger, said someone had been in a few days previous and bought 72 specimens - two 6 X 6 flats - and even though the other collector had already skimmed the cream I still managed to find a few dollars worth. (At that price they were cheaper than a Big Mac, a Coke, and supersized fries. They were healthier too.) I bought them from a museum so they must be museum quality, right? Also, I bet the collector didn't know a state museum would sell his specimens. He probably died thinking his collection was safely ensconced in the state museum. Grant Johnston, Chico, CA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 10:04:04 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (LAWRENCE L. DEE) Date: Mon Nov 18 10:04:04 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geology of Northern California book References: Message-ID: <000b01c28f2c$e9847420$c968bb3f@n7y7z7> I have a copy of Geology of Northern California, Bulletin 190 for sale. The detailed geology and economic resources are described by provinces which include the Klamath Mtns, Coast Ranges, Cascades, etc. It also includes field trip guides for some of the areas covered. It is in as new condition and 307 pages in 8.5x11in format. Asking $34 postpaid. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 11:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Stockwell) Date: Mon Nov 18 11:48:00 2002 Subject: Museums in the NW (USA) was: [Rockhounds] gold References: Message-ID: <3DD959ED.765279C3@ix.netcom.com> Lanny, Glad to hear that! I don't clearly recall the mineral collection. I don't think it's extensive, but although I've visited the museum several times I'm blanking on the minerals. John lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > Hi John, > > Apparently you've seen the collection. Frank C. says the existing mineral > collection is also very good. In your opinion is that true? The offer from > the benefactor includes the necessary new wing, and the last word was that > it was all agreed on. > > Lanny > > >The Crater Rock Museum's collection of thunder eggs, other agates, and > >wood may be > >unsurpassed. These take up all the presently existing space, I believe, so > >adding > >a mineral collection, I believe, probably would require building a new wing. > > > >John > > > >lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > > > >> Jimmy, > >> > >> There is, at least for a few more months, a good new mineral museum in > >> Vancouver, BC. The Pacific Mineral Musuem; unfortunately it appears that it > >> will soon be closed, after only about 2 years of existence. > >> > >> The Burke Museum at U. of Wash. apparently has some good specimens, but > >> generally it is not well currated. Volunteers work on it periodically, but > >> between those episodes it typically gathers dust. > >> > >> The Montana B. of Mines and Geol. on the Montana Tech campus in Butte has > >> a good museum, small, but some good NW pieces, and there is the World > >> Museum of Mining nearby. > >> > >> There is the Crater Rock Museum near Medford, OR which apparently has some > >> good mineral displays and a lot of lapidary and Indian artifacts. This > >> museum may be getting a big boost in mineral displays due to a connection I > >> coordinated through a third party who wants to donate a "million dollar > >> collection." > >> > >> Other than that, there are small, private collections that are available on > >> occasion. In general, those collections listed above are small and vary > >> from not well taken care of to well curated, but limited in size. Only the > >> Butte museum appears to have any interest in a reference collection, and > >> for that mostly just Montana minerals. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Lanny > >> > >> > > >> >But apart from the Rice Museum, what are some others in the area that have > >> >mineral displays? > >> > > >> >Coincidentally, as mineral chair of our club, I've been doing a series on > >> >mineral displays of various museums that I've had the benefit to visit > >>in my > >> >travels. > >> > > >> >I've done the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum, the Field Museum in > >>Chicago, > >> >and an unpublished one on the San Antonio Museum of Art. > >> > > >> >I'd recommend the Az MMM for anyone going to Tucson. > >> > > >> >Jimmy > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> >Subscription Services: > >> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >> Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com > >> Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > >> Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and > >> mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index > >> and The Mineral Database > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and > mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index > and The Mineral Database > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 14:39:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Mon Nov 18 14:39:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD - Ebay auctions Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20021118233913.007b3970@popmail.libero.it> Hi there, few lines to let you know that ItalianMinerals started new auctions on Ebay and has just updated the WHAT'SNEW section on its web site ! Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com and http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=italianmi nerals regards, ItalianMinerals.com ===================== Visit us at: http://www.ItalianMinerals.com for quality minerals !! Check our auctions on Ebay at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=itali anminerals ===================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 17:07:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Mon Nov 18 17:07:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Science Mall-USA - science gifts from Jensan Scientifics Message-ID: <3DD99126.422D@rcn.com> http://www.sciencemall-usa.com/ Science Mall-USA - science gifts from Jensan Scientifics _____ HELLO THIS IS ONE OF THEIR 'SITES' GeorgiaO --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 17:09:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Mon Nov 18 17:09:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] The BIG "Elements of the Universe" with Teachers' Guide Book Message-ID: <3DD991C9.329F@rcn.com> http://shop.store.yahoo.com/scimall-usa/bigelofunstu.html The BIG "Elements of the Universe" with Teachers' Guide Book ___ Here is another 'site' GeorgiaO --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 21:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 18 21:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact Message-ID: <3DD85D39.532B@Tomaszewski.net> I was going thru some old "Glacial Drifter" club newsletters looking for a collecting location field trip report and came across the following letter included in a field trip report. It was received by a trip participant just before leaving. THE MICHIGAN SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ROCKS (MSPCR) AMERICAN SOCIETY TO PREVENT THE MOLESTING OF MINERALS (ASPMM) WORLD SOCIETY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET (WSPP) January 14, 1960 Mrs. Jean Smith X-Ray Department Butterworth Hospital Grand Rapids, Michigan Dear Mrs Smith: Having recently been informed of your forthcoming venture into the field, armed with pick-ax and burlap sack, we feel it our duty and responsibility to loudly protest this vile and vicious scheme. WHAT HAVE ROCKS EVER DONE TO YOU? How can you possibly, in good conscience, remove these poor, lovely, gentle bits of rock from their families and environment? The world is too full of cruelty now for you to compound it merely to satisfy your ricidulous whims. _How_would_you_like_it_if_Rocks_collected_people?_ _STOP_ now before you lose all sense of justice. This may well lead to greater crimes against the world. STOP! STOP! BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. Very truely yours, Rock Hudson, President MSPCR, ASPMM, WSPP BTW, the club trip was a success and everyone came home with bags of specimens. The Grand Rapids Mineral Society was affiliated with the Midwest Federation and granted newsletter reprint rights to other affiliated clubs if attribution was given. I assume that holds even though the club no longer exists. A later issue (Feb, 64) reports "Lincoln May Have Been A Rockhound" "Abraham Lincoln probably was a rockhound," writes J. Emil Smith, editor of the Illinois State Journal. Whether or not this may actually be true, we may only conjecture, but as a young "railsplitter", spending much time out of doors in close contact with nature, it would not be unreasonable to believe that his keen intellect and powers of observation may have direct- ed his attention in this direction. Editor Smith quotes Dr. Ben Hur Wilson, an alumnus of Iowa Weslay- an College, of Mount Pleasant, Iowa, as follows: "That Abraham Lincoln was probably a rockhound is one of the interesting and little known Lincoln sidelights." D. A. Hayes, President of the local rock club, discovered Lincoln's possible interest in geology while chatting with Dr. Wilson, (then) editor of Earth Science. Wilson, an acquaintance of Hayes thru the Midwest Federation, once mentioned that he had seen in the museum of Iowa Weslayan College, a small rock collection made by Abraham Lincoln. On Lincoln's birthday last February 12, Hayes received a letter from Dr. Wilson: "In regard to the A. Lincoln relic, my recollection is as follows: Mineralogy and geology were taught in the old college before Civil War days and afterwards discontinued. Back in one corner of the museum was an old case of dusty miscellaneous minerals of interest to me. "The collection first intruduced Senator Clark, the "Copper King" of Montana, to minerals when he was a student at Weslayan, and in this collection there was a small cigar box partiutioned off with cardboard, marked "collection of Rocks made by A. Lincoln", and as I remember, his signature was written on one corner of the lid. "Now as to how it got there, Senator James Harlan, who was the college president, was also a member of Lincoln's cabinet, and Lincoln's son Robert, married Harlan's daughter, Mary. She spent much time in Mount Pleasant at her parent's home, with her children. Later when the Harlan home was broken up, this box was found and placed by someone in the mineral case at the college, just across the campus. "I have never doubted the authenticity of the box, and although it was been a good many years since I have seen it, I have been told recently that it is still there. I believe it to be genuine" From Earth Science Digest, 1954 as published in the GEMS of Kalamazoo Geological and Mineral Society and contributed by member Gertrude Jordan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 18 22:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Mon Nov 18 22:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact In-Reply-To: <3DD85D39.532B@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20021119012900.0280b4c8@po2.bbn.com> At 10:26 PM 11/17/2002, you wrote: >I was going thru some old "Glacial Drifter" club newsletters looking for >a collecting location field trip report and came across the following >letter included in a field trip report. It was received by a trip >participant just before leaving. > > THE MICHIGAN SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ROCKS (MSPCR) > AMERICAN SOCIETY TO PREVENT THE MOLESTING OF MINERALS (ASPMM) > WORLD SOCIETY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET (WSPP) > > January 14, 1960 > > Mrs. Jean Smith > X-Ray Department > Butterworth Hospital > Grand Rapids, Michigan > > Dear Mrs Smith: > > Having recently been informed of your forthcoming venture into > the field, armed with pick-ax and burlap sack, we feel it our duty > and responsibility to loudly protest this vile and vicious scheme. > WHAT HAVE ROCKS EVER DONE TO YOU? How can you possibly, in good > conscience, remove these poor, lovely, gentle bits of rock from > their families and environment? The world is too full of cruelty > now for you to compound it merely to satisfy your ricidulous whims. > _How_would_you_like_it_if_Rocks_collected_people?_ > > _STOP_ now before you lose all sense of justice. This may well > lead to greater crimes against the world. STOP! STOP! BEFORE IT'S > TOO LATE. > > Very truely yours, > > Rock Hudson, President > MSPCR, ASPMM, WSPP Kreigh, When collecting in trap rock quarries where the alternative to my collecting is having crystals end up in the crusher, I consider myself to be a proud member of the MSPCC (Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Crystals). I only wish that I had the time to save them all! The thought of those poor crystals screaming as they enter the crusher is almost more than I can bear; especially when I am willing to give them a nice bath and a good home where they can interact with other minerals from all over the world. : ) Best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 06:52:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Nov 19 06:52:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact References: <3DD85D39.532B@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002001c28fdc$9f9c6880$25ae77d5@pandora.be> | THE MICHIGAN SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ROCKS (MSPCR) | AMERICAN SOCIETY TO PREVENT THE MOLESTING OF MINERALS (ASPMM) | WORLD SOCIETY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET (WSPP) ??????????????? Oh dear... we of the BAMWHACKTHUMB (Belgian Association of Mineralogists Who Help Administer Care and Kindness To Helpless Unable Mineral Buffs) are shocked! Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:26 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact | I was going thru some old "Glacial Drifter" club newsletters looking for | a collecting location field trip report and came across the following | letter included in a field trip report. It was received by a trip | participant just before leaving. | | THE MICHIGAN SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ROCKS (MSPCR) | AMERICAN SOCIETY TO PREVENT THE MOLESTING OF MINERALS (ASPMM) | WORLD SOCIETY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET (WSPP) | | January 14, 1960 | | Mrs. Jean Smith | X-Ray Department | Butterworth Hospital | Grand Rapids, Michigan | | Dear Mrs Smith: | | Having recently been informed of your forthcoming venture into | the field, armed with pick-ax and burlap sack, we feel it our duty | and responsibility to loudly protest this vile and vicious scheme. | WHAT HAVE ROCKS EVER DONE TO YOU? How can you possibly, in good | conscience, remove these poor, lovely, gentle bits of rock from | their families and environment? The world is too full of cruelty | now for you to compound it merely to satisfy your ricidulous whims. | _How_would_you_like_it_if_Rocks_collected_people?_ | | _STOP_ now before you lose all sense of justice. This may well | lead to greater crimes against the world. STOP! STOP! BEFORE IT'S | TOO LATE. | | Very truely yours, | | Rock Hudson, President | MSPCR, ASPMM, WSPP | | BTW, the club trip was a success and everyone came home with bags of | specimens. | | The Grand Rapids Mineral Society was affiliated with the Midwest | Federation and granted newsletter reprint rights to other affiliated | clubs if attribution was given. I assume that holds even though the club | no longer exists. | | A later issue (Feb, 64) reports "Lincoln May Have Been A Rockhound" | | "Abraham Lincoln probably was a rockhound," writes J. Emil Smith, | editor of the Illinois State Journal. | | Whether or not this may actually be true, we may only conjecture, | but as a young "railsplitter", spending much time out of doors in | close contact with nature, it would not be unreasonable to believe | that his keen intellect and powers of observation may have direct- | ed his attention in this direction. | | Editor Smith quotes Dr. Ben Hur Wilson, an alumnus of Iowa Weslay- | an College, of Mount Pleasant, Iowa, as follows: "That Abraham | Lincoln was probably a rockhound is one of the interesting and | little known Lincoln sidelights." | | D. A. Hayes, President of the local rock club, discovered Lincoln's | possible interest in geology while chatting with Dr. Wilson, (then) | editor of Earth Science. | | Wilson, an acquaintance of Hayes thru the Midwest Federation, | once mentioned that he had seen in the museum of Iowa Weslayan | College, a small rock collection made by Abraham Lincoln. On | Lincoln's birthday last February 12, Hayes received a letter from | Dr. Wilson: | | "In regard to the A. Lincoln relic, my recollection is as follows: | Mineralogy and geology were taught in the old college before Civil | War days and afterwards discontinued. Back in one corner of the | museum was an old case of dusty miscellaneous minerals of interest | to me. | | "The collection first intruduced Senator Clark, the "Copper King" | of Montana, to minerals when he was a student at Weslayan, and in | this collection there was a small cigar box partiutioned off with | cardboard, marked "collection of Rocks made by A. Lincoln", and as | I remember, his signature was written on one corner of the lid. | | "Now as to how it got there, Senator James Harlan, who was the | college president, was also a member of Lincoln's cabinet, and | Lincoln's son Robert, married Harlan's daughter, Mary. She spent | much time in Mount Pleasant at her parent's home, with her children. | Later when the Harlan home was broken up, this box was found and | placed by someone in the mineral case at the college, just across | the campus. | | "I have never doubted the authenticity of the box, and although | it was been a good many years since I have seen it, I have been | told recently that it is still there. I believe it to be genuine" | | From Earth Science Digest, 1954 as published in the GEMS | of Kalamazoo Geological and Mineral Society and contributed | by member Gertrude Jordan | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 07:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood) Date: Tue Nov 19 07:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact In-Reply-To: <002001c28fdc$9f9c6880$25ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: | THE MICHIGAN SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ROCKS (MSPCR) | AMERICAN SOCIETY TO PREVENT THE MOLESTING OF MINERALS (ASPMM) | WORLD SOCIETY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET (WSPP) When first formed, the Society of Luminescent Microscopists and Spectroscopists (SLMS) was called the Society of Cathodoluminescent and Ultraviolet Microscopists (SCUM). No joke! I kind of liked the old name myself. Years ago, a fellow geologist claimed to be a member of the Society of Laid-Back Unemployed Geologists (SLUG). Henry Barwood From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 08:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Tue Nov 19 08:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a sort of related note, the Engineering school at my dad's college, Cal State University Northridge, was, for most of the 1980s, known as the School of Engineering and Computer Science (SECS). I still have the T-shirts proclaiming: "CSUN: Best SECS in the West" Aaron > > | THE MICHIGAN SOCIETY FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ROCKS (MSPCR) > | AMERICAN SOCIETY TO PREVENT THE MOLESTING OF MINERALS (ASPMM) > | WORLD SOCIETY FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE PLANET (WSPP) > > When first formed, the Society of Luminescent Microscopists and > Spectroscopists (SLMS) was called the Society of Cathodoluminescent and > Ultraviolet Microscopists (SCUM). No joke! I kind of liked the old name > myself. > > Years ago, a fellow geologist claimed to be a member of the Society of > Laid-Back Unemployed Geologists (SLUG). > > Henry Barwood > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > -- afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request "Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..." From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 13:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John & Gloria Cornish) Date: Tue Nov 19 13:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz Message-ID: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> Hi All, I'm hoping that some of you may be able to help me. I am trying to get = some information on two quartz crystals I've just recently been given. = They are both in excess of an inch in diameter and are each several = inches long. One is recently broke and the other had broken some time in = the past and now has a multiply terminated end opposite of a clean = "normal" termination. The crystals both have very distinct phantoms = within them of a dark almost blackish color. My questions, could someone = please let me know which Arkansas mine these crystals originated and = does anyone know the identity of the inclusionary mineral? This material = is at least a decade old. Thank you very much everyone for your time and = help. All the best, John --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 13:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Tue Nov 19 13:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz References: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> Message-ID: <017601c29013$44f54be0$c703fea9@win98> The black inclusions (phantoms) are most likely manganese. You will find manganese inclusions in most mines. The inclusion could also be shale, but these don't usually form phantoms. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John & Gloria Cornish" To: "rockhounds@drizzle.com" Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:08 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz Hi All, I'm hoping that some of you may be able to help me. I am trying to get some information on two quartz crystals I've just recently been given. They are both in excess of an inch in diameter and are each several inches long. One is recently broke and the other had broken some time in the past and now has a multiply terminated end opposite of a clean "normal" termination. The crystals both have very distinct phantoms within them of a dark almost blackish color. My questions, could someone please let me know which Arkansas mine these crystals originated and does anyone know the identity of the inclusionary mineral? This material is at least a decade old. Thank you very much everyone for your time and help. All the best, John --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 13:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Tue Nov 19 13:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz References: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> <017601c29013$44f54be0$c703fea9@win98> Message-ID: <000a01c29015$92e3a2a0$9c86f943@7a2wp> How about the "blue phantom" quartz from Robins (?) and Crystal Hill's mines? I believe these are mud inclusions. -dan- Let the banks dispose of them for you! Write NO! across those credit card apps, and stuff everything including the original envelope into the postage-paid envelope, and mail it all back.... Rock Shop: ManyFacets.com Personal: ManyFacets.com/dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Schmitt" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 16:33 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > The black inclusions (phantoms) are most likely manganese. You will find > manganese inclusions in most mines. The inclusion could also be shale, but > these don't usually form phantoms. > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John & Gloria Cornish" > To: "rockhounds@drizzle.com" > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:08 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > > > Hi All, > > I'm hoping that some of you may be able to help me. I am trying to get some > information on two quartz crystals I've just recently been given. They are > both in excess of an inch in diameter and are each several inches long. One > is recently broke and the other had broken some time in the past and now has > a multiply terminated end opposite of a clean "normal" termination. The > crystals both have very distinct phantoms within them of a dark almost > blackish color. My questions, could someone please let me know which > Arkansas mine these crystals originated and does anyone know the identity of > the inclusionary mineral? This material is at least a decade old. Thank you > very much everyone for your time and help. All the best, > > John > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 19:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 19 19:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact Message-ID: <170.17571966.2b0c6029@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/02 7:17:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, hbarwood@troyst.edu writes: > Years ago, a fellow geologist claimed to be a member of the Society of > Laid-Back Unemployed Geologists (SLUG). > Back in the 60s newspapers frequently ran stories with the new service that provided the story in brackets. There was Associated Press (AP), United Press (UP), and International Press (IP) and some others I don't recall. I worked for an underground hippie paper in Berkeley, the Berkeley Barb. Since we didn't have national corespondents we would rewrite and summarize some national stories, like the assignation of Dr. Martin Luther King, and attribute it to (IGNS), Inter Galactic News Service. Being young was fun. Heybeing old is not bad either. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 20:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Nov 19 20:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A Little Humor -- and a Fun Fact References: <170.17571966.2b0c6029@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DDB0D3D.61E9@Tomaszewski.net> The April 25, 1963 memo from J.C.R. Licklider that was responsible for the creation of the Internet was jokingly addressed to "the members and affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network". Kreigh Lapadary@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/19/02 7:17:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, > hbarwood@troyst.edu writes: > > > Years ago, a fellow geologist claimed to be a member of the Society of > > Laid-Back Unemployed Geologists (SLUG). > > > > Back in the 60s newspapers frequently ran stories with the new service that > provided the story in brackets. There was Associated Press (AP), United Press > (UP), and International Press (IP) and some others I don't recall. I worked > for an underground hippie paper in Berkeley, the Berkeley Barb. Since we > didn't have national corespondents we would rewrite and summarize some > national stories, like the assignation of Dr. Martin Luther King, and > attribute it to (IGNS), Inter Galactic News Service. > > Being young was fun. Heybeing old is not bad either. > > Grant From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 19 20:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Tue Nov 19 20:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Science Mall-USA - science gifts from Jensan Scientifics References: <3DD99126.422D@rcn.com> Message-ID: <007101c29050$3b9996e0$ed3f27c4@horstspc> Hi Gloria, Thanks for sending me the information on Jensan Scientifics. Have already been in contact with them, but would like an opinion on their kits, if they are worth their money. Somebody said they were rather expensive for the value you get out of them. Kind regards, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Olmstead" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:17 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Science Mall-USA - science gifts from Jensan Scientifics > http://www.sciencemall-usa.com/ > > Science Mall-USA - science gifts from Jensan Scientifics > _____ > > HELLO > THIS IS ONE OF THEIR 'SITES' > > GeorgiaO > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 08:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 20 08:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Show Message-ID: <157.17a21d6d.2b0ae299@aol.com> The Northern Virginia Mineral Club, Inc. INVITES YOU to their Annual Gem, Mineral & Fossil Show at George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia Student Union II Park in Lot F - Courtesy shuttle to and from the show. November 23rd .. 10 am to 6 pm. November 24th .. 10 am to 4 pm. Silent Auction. Over 21 dealers. Quality Gem, Mineral, Fossil, etc.. Demonstrations, Exhibits, Door prizes. Mini-Mines and Fossil Dig for kids. Quizzes. Great fluorescent display - with an additional SPECIAL! exhibit this year. Adults - $3.00 ($1.00 off with coupon) Senior Citizens - $2.00 Teens - $2.00 (ages 13-18) Children - FREE (age 12 and under) Scouts in Uniform - FREE George Mason University Students - FREE WITH ID. See you there.....:) From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 08:42:34 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 20 08:42:34 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Melbourne, FL show this weekend Message-ID: <20021120031921.POXC663.fl-webmail02@fl-webmail02> Greetings! I would like to remind members of the list about the 26th Annual "Parade of Gems" Show, Melbourne, FL show this weekend. This will be my first year being a dealer at this show. My booth is hard to miss as I have UT orange table coverings! Dates: Saturday & Sunday, November 23 & 24, 2002. Hours: Saturday - 10:00 am - 6:00 pm Sunday - 10:00 am - 5:00 pm Location: Melbourne Auditorium, 625 E. Hibiscus Ave. Melbourne, FL Hope to see you there! Stop by and say "HI!" and introduce yourself. It is great to be able to put names and faces together. Maybe you'll even see something I have that you can't live without! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 09:14:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John & Gloria Cornish) Date: Wed Nov 20 09:14:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz References: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> <017601c29013$44f54be0$c703fea9@win98> <000a01c29015$92e3a2a0$9c86f943@7a2wp> Message-ID: <005801c290b6$b4227580$71d85b41@jgcornish> Hi Dan, I've written a more detailed letter to Stuart where I reference your letter, could you please comment further from this if possible. Thank you very much for taking the time, I appreciate your help. All the very best, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Z" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > How about the "blue phantom" quartz from Robins (?) and Crystal Hill's > mines? I believe these are mud inclusions. > > -dan- > > > > Let the banks dispose of them for you! > Write NO! across those credit card apps, and stuff > everything including the original envelope into the > postage-paid envelope, and mail it all back.... > > Rock Shop: ManyFacets.com > Personal: ManyFacets.com/dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stuart Schmitt" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 16:33 > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > > > > The black inclusions (phantoms) are most likely manganese. You will find > > manganese inclusions in most mines. The inclusion could also be shale, > but > > these don't usually form phantoms. > > > > With appreciation & gratitude, > > Stuart Schmitt > > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > > www.arcrystalmine.com > > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > > (870) 867-2443 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John & Gloria Cornish" > > To: "rockhounds@drizzle.com" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:08 PM > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I'm hoping that some of you may be able to help me. I am trying to get > some > > information on two quartz crystals I've just recently been given. They are > > both in excess of an inch in diameter and are each several inches long. > One > > is recently broke and the other had broken some time in the past and now > has > > a multiply terminated end opposite of a clean "normal" termination. The > > crystals both have very distinct phantoms within them of a dark almost > > blackish color. My questions, could someone please let me know which > > Arkansas mine these crystals originated and does anyone know the identity > of > > the inclusionary mineral? This material is at least a decade old. Thank > you > > very much everyone for your time and help. All the best, > > > > John > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 09:17:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John & Gloria Cornish) Date: Wed Nov 20 09:17:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz References: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> <017601c29013$44f54be0$c703fea9@win98> Message-ID: <006001c290b7$2f4bb1e0$71d85b41@jgcornish> Hi Stuart, Excellent, thank you very much for your reply, if you wouldn't mind, can I pick your brain a bit further? In your letter you mention that the inclusions are likely manganese, are there other black colored phantom occurrences with different inclusionary minerals of which your aware? Also, your shale comment, are these then more isolated inclusions and do they look like actual rock fragments frozen within the crystals or have they been altered in some way? Dan also wrote about blue phantoms, I remember a big 2 by 2 foot mound of quartz crystals being sold by a now defunct Seattle business called Museum Associates some years ago whose crystals I recall as indeed being more bluish in color as compared to these which are most definitely blackish colored, these other crystals were also much smaller in comparison, is this bluer phantom producing mineral also manganese to your knowledge? Can you suggest any references detailing these identifications of which I should inquire? Because of their wide range of occurrence and lack of other distinguishing features, it sounds like pinning a mine down may be most difficult for these crystals, is it possible to nail down an individual county perhaps or are several counties represented by crystals of this type? Thanks so much for your help, I very much appreciate your taking the time. All the best, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Schmitt" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > The black inclusions (phantoms) are most likely manganese. You will find > manganese inclusions in most mines. The inclusion could also be shale, but > these don't usually form phantoms. > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John & Gloria Cornish" > To: "rockhounds@drizzle.com" > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:08 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > > > Hi All, > > I'm hoping that some of you may be able to help me. I am trying to get some > information on two quartz crystals I've just recently been given. They are > both in excess of an inch in diameter and are each several inches long. One > is recently broke and the other had broken some time in the past and now has > a multiply terminated end opposite of a clean "normal" termination. The > crystals both have very distinct phantoms within them of a dark almost > blackish color. My questions, could someone please let me know which > Arkansas mine these crystals originated and does anyone know the identity of > the inclusionary mineral? This material is at least a decade old. Thank you > very much everyone for your time and help. All the best, > > John > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 09:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Wed Nov 20 09:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz References: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> <017601c29013$44f54be0$c703fea9@win98> <006001c290b7$2f4bb1e0$71d85b41@jgcornish> Message-ID: <008001c290bb$dbb8ca40$c703fea9@win98> For everything you ever wanted to know about inclusions and phantoms in Arkansas quartz see Mike Howard's (Arkansas State Geologist) web page here: http://rockhoundingar.com/quartz/phantom.html Then let me know how many of what kind you want (smile). With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 11:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lennart Borg) Date: Wed Nov 20 11:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi to you all, A friend of mine in Sweden knows that I belong to this group. He travels a couple of times to China every year and he wants your help. Does anyone of you have names of persons or e-mail addresses in Peking, Chengdo or Hong Kong of mineral collectors or/and mineral shops? He wants contact with a person who has first class minerals. Thanks in advance from a snow covered Sweden Lennart Borg From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 11:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lennart Borg) Date: Wed Nov 20 11:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi to you all, A friend of mine in Sweden knows that I belong to this group. He travels a couple of times to China every year and he wants your help. Does anyone of you have names of persons or e-mail addresses in Peking, Chengdo or Hong Kong of mineral collectors or/and mineral shops? He wants contact with a person who has first class minerals. Thanks in advance from a snow covered Sweden Lennart Borg From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 11:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Wed Nov 20 11:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] China In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just accidentally I got an e-mail request of the following Chinese dealer minutes ago : Hunan Youyi Mineral&Gem Shop 312#Chengnan Zhong Road CN410007 Changsha Hunan P.R.China Fax:86-731-5161309 Tel:86-731-5163349 Greetings, Rik Dillen -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lennart Borg Sent: 20 November, 2002 8:22 PM To: rockhounds@drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Hi to you all, A friend of mine in Sweden knows that I belong to this group. He travels a couple of times to China every year and he wants your help. Does anyone of you have names of persons or e-mail addresses in Peking, Chengdo or Hong Kong of mineral collectors or/and mineral shops? He wants contact with a person who has first class minerals. Thanks in advance from a snow covered Sweden Lennart Borg _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 12:00:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Wed Nov 20 12:00:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Japan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am going to be traveling to Japan the second week of December and I was wondering if there are any list members in the Tokyo area that would interested in doing some trading for Franklin specimens. Please contact me off list. Also... if anyone has some suggestions for geologically-related places for me to visit in the Tokyo area, please let me know. Regards, Gary Catspaw Minerals Suppliers of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk www.catspaw-minerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 20 13:00:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John & Gloria Cornish) Date: Wed Nov 20 13:00:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz References: <001801c2900f$c6157780$42d85b41@jgcornish> <017601c29013$44f54be0$c703fea9@win98> <006001c290b7$2f4bb1e0$71d85b41@jgcornish> <008001c290bb$dbb8ca40$c703fea9@win98> Message-ID: <000901c290d6$56d50f80$16685a41@jgcornish> Hi Stuart, Thank you for the excellent site! I've been reading the page you've given and indeed found everything I needed to know....including that manganese is not and has not been found as an inclusion! It's fine particles of shale. Awesome, informative site. Thank you very much Stuart! All the best, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Schmitt" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Inclusions within Arkansas Quartz > For everything you ever wanted to know about inclusions and phantoms in > Arkansas quartz see Mike Howard's (Arkansas State Geologist) web page here: > http://rockhoundingar.com/quartz/phantom.html > > Then let me know how many of what kind you want (smile). > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 08:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Nov 21 08:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils Sample - Missouri In-Reply-To: <3DCC6EF4.B9A9FD9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hey, I knew I said I was going to put a sample of MasMils/PLUS data up each month. So I forgot... sue me! You want a ton of mine locations? Here's a ton for you (it's in the Lead/Zinc district, and as we all know, a ton of lead weighs a lot more than a ton of spodumene!) - Jasper County: the heart of the Joplin, Missouri mining district. http://www.catspaw-minerals.com/sample_masmils.htm This is in the format used by DeLorme in both their Street Atlas and Topo projects. Enjoy! Gary Brown Catspaw Minerals Home of MasMils/PLUS http://www.catspaw-minerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 09:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 21 09:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller Message-ID: Hello Everyone Does anyone have any info or experiences with the business practices of a man named, David Goodnow / G o o d n o w ' s , in Amarillo Texas ? Ph. # 8 0 6 - 3 5 2 - 0 7 2 5 I have tried to contact Goodnow's for nearly 2 months, regarding a large refund for insured, return receipt rocks, sent to & received by Goodnow's, in September.. In October, Goodnow's promised me that the check due to me was, " In the mail." Recently, I contacted another Rock shop in Amarillo and they said they are very aware of David Goodnow and that others have called their shop in the past, about how G o o d n o w ' s , has stolen their refund money.... Fellow rock hounds please beware, Goodnow's was not trustworthy or true to his word with me and i wish someone would have w a r n e d me about David Goodnow and G o o d n o w ' s I can only assume that after 2 months of David Goodnow refusing to return my calls that, G o o d n o w ' s has decided to steal the money he owes to me and is conducting business with me, as a common thief ! Respectfully, RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 09:54:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Nov 21 09:54:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] larimar Message-ID: Hi all... I know we've talked about it before, but I've forgotten. What's the poop on Larimar? GcB --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 10:34:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 21 10:34:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] larimar References: Message-ID: <010d01c2918d$d56b7200$ae9f77d5@pandora.be> Larimar = Cobaltoan Pectolite, according to Jeffrey de Fourestier's Glossary of Mineral Synonyms (The Canadian Mineralogist, Special Publication 2) Poop according to the Concise Oxford Dictionary is: poop1 · n. (also poop deck) the aftermost and highest deck of a ship, especially a sailing ship. · v. (of a wave) break over the stern of (a ship). - ORIGIN ME: from OFr. pupe, from a var. of L. puppis 'stern'. poop2 · v. N. Amer. informal 1 [as adj. pooped] exhausted. 2 (poop out) stop functioning. - ORIGIN 1930s: of unknown origin. poop3 N. Amer. informal · n. excrement. · v. defecate. - ORIGIN C18: imitative. poop4 · n. informal, chiefly N. Amer. up-to-date or inside information. - ORIGIN 1940s: of unknown origin. poop5 · n. informal, chiefly N. Amer. a stupid or ineffectual person. - DERIVATIVES poopy adj. - ORIGIN C20: perh. a shortening of nincompoop. Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Brown" To: "Rockhounds" Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:53 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] larimar | Hi all... | | I know we've talked about it before, but I've forgotten. What's the poop on | Larimar? | | GcB | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 10:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 21 10:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] larimar Message-ID: <20021121184520.QUNG24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc19> It is a blue-colored pectolite, from the Dominican Republic I believe, used primarily as a lapidary stone. I must say I'm not big on "trade names" for materials, but this substance is pretty and I wish I would have bought some when I'd seen it. Don > Hi all... > > I know we've talked about it before, but I've forgotten. What's the poop on > Larimar? > > GcB > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 11:00:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Thu Nov 21 11:00:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller References: Message-ID: <001a01c29190$3de919c0$2886f943@7a2wp> Let the banks dispose of them for you! Write NO! across those credit card apps, and stuff everything including the original envelope into the postage-paid envelope, and mail it all back.... Rock Shop: ManyFacets.com Personal: ManyFacets.com/dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:41 Subject: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller > Hello Everyone > > Does anyone have any info or experiences with the business practices of a man > named, David Goodnow / G o o d n o w ' s , in Amarillo Texas ? > Ph. # 8 0 6 - 3 5 2 - 0 7 2 5 > > I have tried to contact Goodnow's for nearly 2 months, regarding a large > refund for insured, return receipt rocks, sent to & received by Goodnow's, in > September.. > > In October, Goodnow's promised me that the check due to me was, " In the > mail." > > Recently, I contacted another Rock shop in Amarillo and they said they are > very aware of David Goodnow and that others have called their shop in the > past, about how G o o d n o w ' s , has stolen their refund money.... > > Fellow rock hounds please beware, Goodnow's was not trustworthy or true to > his word with me and i wish someone would have w a r n e d me about David > Goodnow and G o o d n o w ' s > > I can only assume that after 2 months of David Goodnow refusing to return my > calls that, G o o d n o w ' s has decided to steal the money he owes to me > and is conducting business with me, as a common thief ! > > Respectfully, > > RnL > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > rocksandfossils-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 11:03:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Nov 21 11:03:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] larimar In-Reply-To: <010d01c2918d$d56b7200$ae9f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: *sigh* Those pesky Belgians. Too much chocolate in their diets, I presume. Or.... maybe one too many Duvels, eh? Let me refrase my question. "Is larimar a valid gemstone (hey, what's valid mean, anywho??). I know that it's pectolite, and as such it isn't particularily hard." Geez... I wonder what Axel would have said if I had said... "Could anyone give me the skivvy on Laramar?" GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:43 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] larimar > . > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 11:04:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Thu Nov 21 11:04:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller References: Message-ID: <001d01c29190$85f77360$2886f943@7a2wp> Personally, I have only had good experiences with Goodnow. However, as you should know, statistically one anecdote is not evidence of a trend.... -dan- __ Let the banks dispose of them for you! Write NO! across those credit card apps, and stuff everything including the original envelope into the postage-paid envelope, and mail it all back.... Rock Shop: ManyFacets.com Personal: ManyFacets.com/dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:41 Subject: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller > Hello Everyone > > Does anyone have any info or experiences with the business practices of a man > named, David Goodnow / G o o d n o w ' s , in Amarillo Texas ? > Ph. # 8 0 6 - 3 5 2 - 0 7 2 5 > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 11:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Davis, Dennis) Date: Thu Nov 21 11:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller Message-ID: <7014D6CD65A2D611887900805FBE0149564B25@exchangewv1.atk.com> I have only had good luck with Goodnow. > -----Original Message----- From: Dan Z [mailto:danielz@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:02 PM To: rocksandfossils@yahoogroups.com; LA-Rocks@yahoogroups.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com; LapidaryList@yahoogroups.com; roughforsale@yahoogroups.com; rockhounds@yahoogroups.com; eminerals@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller Personally, I have only had good experiences with Goodnow. However, as you should know, statistically one anecdote is not evidence of a trend.... -dan- __ Let the banks dispose of them for you! Write NO! across those credit card apps, and stuff everything including the original envelope into the postage-paid envelope, and mail it all back.... Rock Shop: ManyFacets.com Personal: ManyFacets.com/dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:41 Subject: [rocksandfossils] Advise - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller > Hello Everyone > > Does anyone have any info or experiences with the business practices of a man > named, David Goodnow / G o o d n o w ' s , in Amarillo Texas ? > Ph. # 8 0 6 - 3 5 2 - 0 7 2 5 > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 11:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Nov 21 11:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] larimar References: Message-ID: <013001c29197$e6904920$ae9f77d5@pandora.be> | *sigh* Those pesky Belgians. Too much chocolate in their diets, I presume. | Or.... maybe one too many Duvels, eh? No, it's the air and the climate... and a bit in the genes (ROFL) | Geez... I wonder what Axel would have said if I had said... "Could anyone | give me the skivvy on Laramar?" Probably this: skivvy · n. (pl. skivvies) 1 Brit. informal a low-ranking female domestic servant. Ø a person doing menial work. 2 US a lightweight high-necked long-sleeved garment. Ø a T-shirt or short-sleeved vest. Ø (skivvies) N. Amer. trademark underwear of vest and underpants. · v. (skivvies, skivvied) informal do menial household tasks. - ORIGIN C20: of unknown origin. Axel | > -----Original Message----- | > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com | > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann | > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:43 PM | > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] larimar | | > | . | > | > Cheers | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 13:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 21 13:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] DAN - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller Message-ID: <4a.14b8b510.2b0eaa03@aol.com> Dan Glad you had no problems... . Would that include returning items to Goodnow's and promptly receiving the refund money due to you as well..? Or did you just accept the rock materials he sent and didn't have to send them back ? With me, I returned material for his stated 100% refund policy and it is the refund money that Goodnow's has Stolen ! Thanks for your input Dan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 21 22:19:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 21 22:19:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] DENNIS - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Sel... Message-ID: <10d.1b550db5.2b0f2647@aol.com> Dennis Happy to hear you have had good luck with him.. But, did you ever Return Anything Over $1 5 0 and if so, did he refund your money in full, as his written policy clearly states, or.... ? Perhaps the next time you have the opportunity to speak with David you could ask him, will he be sending me my money due and if not, why he T r u t h f u l l y is not.. Then ask him would he return your money over $150, should you ever decide to return any rocks... ! Thanks for your comments Dennis RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 04:37:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (adam sanora) Date: Fri Nov 22 04:37:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD.RARE DIASPORE Message-ID: <20021122123640.84714.qmail@web41109.mail.yahoo.com> 1000 GR COLLECTION AND PARTIAL FACET GRADE RARE DIASPORE LOT FROM TURKEY FOR WHOLESALE . 3000 USD CIF .NICE SELECTED PIECES .IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PLEASE CONTACT ME ADAM ANKARA/TURKEY __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 05:04:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Davis, Dennis) Date: Fri Nov 22 05:04:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] DENNIS - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Sel... Message-ID: <7014D6CD65A2D611887900805FBE0149564B27@exchangewv1.atk.com> No, I did not return anything. I was happy with the items and also I have a philosophy that rocks/minerals bought over the web are never as nice as you would get in person. I have gotten some pretty ugly items, but the price paid also reflected that I was taking a risk. You never know what is inside a rock until you cut/break it. I have collected many a rock which when I have cut them should of been a leaverit. It would let me put a lot less wear on my vehicle if my X-ray vision worked for rocks.LOL > Dennis K. Davis -----Original Message----- From: Rocknlight@aol.com [mailto:Rocknlight@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 1:19 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] DENNIS - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Sel... Dennis Happy to hear you have had good luck with him.. But, did you ever Return Anything Over $1 5 0 and if so, did he refund your money in full, as his written policy clearly states, or.... ? Perhaps the next time you have the opportunity to speak with David you could ask him, will he be sending me my money due and if not, why he T r u t h f u l l y is not.. Then ask him would he return your money over $150, should you ever decide to return any rocks... ! Thanks for your comments Dennis RnL _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 05:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 22 05:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD.RARE DIASPORE Message-ID: <7a.316f2db4.2b0f8713@aol.com> question do you have any fluorescent minerals available? GSLROCKS Greg Lesinski 4726 Porter Center Rd. Lewiston NY 14092 gslrocks@aol.com www.gslrocks.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 07:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Fri Nov 22 07:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] DAN - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller References: <4a.14b8b510.2b0eaa03@aol.com> Message-ID: <003201c2923e$07ce8d80$5186f943@7a2wp> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 16:28 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [rocksandfossils] DAN - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller > Dan > > Glad you had no problems... . Would that include returning items to Goodnow's > and promptly receiving the refund money due to you as well..? Yes. He had flats of calcite crystals that weren't very good. I returned them and received a refund. He doesn't often do specimens, and probably didn't know what the quality should be. The cutting materials I have ordered have all been pretty good. Of course my retail prices are now lower than his wholesale.... -dan- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 09:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Fri Nov 22 09:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Newry Mineral Park in Maine Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20021122124450.0280b2f8@po2.bbn.com> Over the years this list has had several threads dealing with the loss of collecting sites to development, reclamation and/or government action. The notice that I have copied below is a very encouraging and refreshing contrast to this ongoing limitation of collecting access. In my opinion the State of Maine is setting the standard for cooperation between mineral collectors and local governments. Now, led by the Maine Geological Survey, they are trying to purchase a classic locality (that was unavailable for years due to ongoing mining activities) and make it available to the recreational mineral collector. Although the Land for Maine's Future organization has pledged some money for the Newry purchase, it is nowhere near enough to buy the land and they really need the financial support of the mineral collecting community if it is to succeed. I will definitely be making a donation and I recommend it to you as well. I think it would be a great thing if collectors across the country would show their support by sending in a contribution, whether large or small. You can also help to get the word out! I have received two jpeg files from the Maine Geological Survey that contain some photos and can be used either to print up a brochure or provide an article for a club newsletter. If you want these just email Woody Thompson at . We now have a chance to do something other than bemoan the loss of collecting opportunities. Lets take advantage of it and try to establish a model that can be shown to other state governments as a way to work together. As the old saying goes.............its time to put our money where our mouth is! Nate Martin Lexington, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------- An Invitation to Mineral Collectors, Science Teachers, and everyone interested in Maine's Natural History to help establish the NEWRY MINERAL PARK A new State property that will include several of Maine's most famous mineral localities, including the Dunton tourmaline mine, in a beautiful mountain setting! The Oxford Hills in western Maine are known throughout the world as a prolific source of gems such as tourmaline, amethyst, and aquamarine, as well as many rare mineral species. Thousands of people come to Maine every year to search for these minerals in the rock piles left behind from earlier mining operations. Historic mining for feldspar and gem tourmaline in the town of Newry opened up several deposits rich in uncommon minerals. These mines are located on a scenic mountaintop that also offers great opportunities for hiking, geologic studies, and other outdoor recreation. Many popular mineral collecting sites in Maine have been closed to the public in recent years due to encroaching development and other factors. But the State of Maine now has the opportunity to acquire a 100-acre tract of land in Newry that encompasses the famous Dunton tourmaline mine and six other neighboring quarries. The Maine Geological Survey (of the Department of Conservation) has launched a fundraising drive to purchase the Newry mines for a permanent park whose principal use would be for recreational mineral collecting. Partners in this effort include the Maine Mineral Symposium Association, the Federation of Maine Mineral and Gem Clubs, and the Threshold to Maine Resource Conservation and Development Commission. All mineral hobbyists, earth science students, educators, and outdoor enthusiasts will benefit from the Newry Mineral Park. The Land for Maine's Future board has made a generous pledge toward the purchase price, but most of the funds to acquire the property must be raised from other sources. The Maine Geological Survey is committed to this effort, and we are asking mineral clubs and individuals to help by donating to the park acquisition fund. Contributions are tax-deductible and will be acknowledged. Donations of $100 or more will receive a special recognition certificate! Please print and fill out the form below: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enclosed is my donation in the following amount to help establish the Newry Mineral Park: _____$25 _____$50 _____$100 _____$500 _____ $1000 Other amount: $____________ Name(s)__________________________________________________________ Address:__________________________________________________________ City:___________________________ State:_________ Zip:_______________ Phone number / e-mail address: _______________________________________ Please make your check payable to "Newry Mineral Park" and send with this form to: Newry Mineral Park c/o Maine Geological Survey 22 State House Station Augusta, ME 04333-0022 Visit the Maine Geological Survey's website for further developments and progress reports: http://www.state.me.us/doc/nrimc/mgs/mgs.htm --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 11:53:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 22 11:53:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] DENNIS # 2 - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Sel... Message-ID: <42.3114fd5d.2b0fe4e5@aol.com> Dennis Thanks for replying...... Goodnow's ONLY sells through a NO picture mailed out catalog, where he clearly explains the rock materials in full written detail.. I did like some of my ordered rocks and kept those as a partial order, but others were not as represented, at least in my opinion.... So I simply sent those rocks back, with NO highgrading, just as Goodnow's policy states, for my in full refund, just for those few rocks returned... I am still waiting on the refund, for which David Goodnow did finally phone me sometime Thursday night / Just Last Night ! while I was gone and he left a message on my machine, stating that the money he owes to me will be in the mail today, Friday, November 22, 2002,.......Evidentally, David told me on the message machine that he has been under the weather / sick... I will keep everyone posted as to the status of the check that is coming in the mail...... Thanks again for your thoughts Dennis Respectfully, RocknLight From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 11:58:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 22 11:58:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] DAN # 2- G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Seller Message-ID: <2d.26f393ea.2b0fe637@aol.com> Dan Glad to hear it.. I understand about the prices ! ....... But I don't mind paying higher prices for higher quality, especially hard to find higher quality... David did leave me a message on my machine just last night, stating he has been ill and that my refund check will be in the mail today, Friday, November 22, 2002....I'll keep ya posted. Thanks for you input again Dan RocknLight From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 13:55:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Fri Nov 22 13:55:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Newry Mineral Park in Maine Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20021122124450.0280b2f8@po2.bbn.com> Over the years this list has had several threads dealing with the loss of collecting sites to development, reclamation and/or government action. The notice that I have copied below is a very encouraging and refreshing contrast to this ongoing limitation of collecting access. In my opinion the State of Maine is setting the standard for cooperation between mineral collectors and local governments. Now, led by the Maine Geological Survey, they are trying to purchase a classic locality (that was unavailable for years due to ongoing mining activities) and make it available to the recreational mineral collector. Although the Land for Maine's Future organization has pledged some money for the Newry purchase, it is nowhere near enough to buy the land and they really need the financial support of the mineral collecting community if it is to succeed. I will definitely be making a donation and I recommend it to you as well. I think it would be a great thing if collectors across the country would show their support by sending in a contribution, whether large or small. You can also help to get the word out! I have received two jpeg files from the Maine Geological Survey that contain some photos and can be used either to print up a brochure or provide an article for a club newsletter. If you want these just email Woody Thompson at . We now have a chance to do something other than bemoan the loss of collecting opportunities. Lets take advantage of it and try to establish a model that can be shown to other state governments as a way to work together. As the old saying goes.............its time to put our money where our mouth is! Nate Martin Lexington, MA ------------------------------------------------------------------- An Invitation to Mineral Collectors, Science Teachers, and everyone interested in Maine's Natural History to help establish the NEWRY MINERAL PARK A new State property that will include several of Maine's most famous mineral localities, including the Dunton tourmaline mine, in a beautiful mountain setting! The Oxford Hills in western Maine are known throughout the world as a prolific source of gems such as tourmaline, amethyst, and aquamarine, as well as many rare mineral species. Thousands of people come to Maine every year to search for these minerals in the rock piles left behind from earlier mining operations. Historic mining for feldspar and gem tourmaline in the town of Newry opened up several deposits rich in uncommon minerals. These mines are located on a scenic mountaintop that also offers great opportunities for hiking, geologic studies, and other outdoor recreation. Many popular mineral collecting sites in Maine have been closed to the public in recent years due to encroaching development and other factors. But the State of Maine now has the opportunity to acquire a 100-acre tract of land in Newry that encompasses the famous Dunton tourmaline mine and six other neighboring quarries. The Maine Geological Survey (of the Department of Conservation) has launched a fundraising drive to purchase the Newry mines for a permanent park whose principal use would be for recreational mineral collecting. Partners in this effort include the Maine Mineral Symposium Association, the Federation of Maine Mineral and Gem Clubs, and the Threshold to Maine Resource Conservation and Development Commission. All mineral hobbyists, earth science students, educators, and outdoor enthusiasts will benefit from the Newry Mineral Park. The Land for Maine's Future board has made a generous pledge toward the purchase price, but most of the funds to acquire the property must be raised from other sources. The Maine Geological Survey is committed to this effort, and we are asking mineral clubs and individuals to help by donating to the park acquisition fund. Contributions are tax-deductible and will be acknowledged. Donations of $100 or more will receive a special recognition certificate! Please print and fill out the form below: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Enclosed is my donation in the following amount to help establish the Newry Mineral Park: _____$25 _____$50 _____$100 _____$500 _____ $1000 Other amount: $____________ Name(s)__________________________________________________________ Address:__________________________________________________________ City:___________________________ State:_________ Zip:_______________ Phone number / e-mail address: _______________________________________ Please make your check payable to "Newry Mineral Park" and send with this form to: Newry Mineral Park c/o Maine Geological Survey 22 State House Station Augusta, ME 04333-0022 Visit the Maine Geological Survey's website for further developments and progress reports: http://www.state.me.us/doc/nrimc/mgs/mgs.htm --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 17:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 22 17:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] DENNIS # 2 - G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Sel... Message-ID: <102.1f71b32a.2b1036b3@aol.com> In a message dated 11/22/02 4:32:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, Rocknlight@aol.com writes: > Evidentally, David told me on the message machine that he has been under the > weather / sick... > I make my living renting houses, mostly to college students and welfare mothers. Occasionally a tenant just stops paying, doesn't return phone calls, etc. That is always more frustrating than getting a call or note that explains why the rent is late. I'm willing to listen to excuses, but when the people who owe me money start ignoring me I give them a 3-day notice. A business that advertises a refund policy must be really sure they mail the check in a timely manner. We've all been ignored once to often. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Nov 22 18:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Nov 22 18:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] G r a n t G o o d n o w ' s - Rock Sel... Message-ID: <14.2db623f.2b103f0c@aol.com> Yes, I totally understand your point..... Just one simple return phone call and one excuse and or any truthful explanation and I would have tried to see things in a different light.... Thank you very much for your factual comparisons and honest opinion.. Respectfully, RocknLight From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 06:30:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Sat Nov 23 06:30:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam Message-ID: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> forwarded message..... can anyone help this woman in a legal sense??? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Meredith Aaronson=20 To: paleolist@notkin.net=20 Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:50 AM Subject: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam Dear List Members,=20 This is my first posting but I think you will find it very interesting. = My name is Meredith Aaronson and I run www.SaharaOverland.com with my = husband Abdullah (Adam). It has recently been brought to our attention = that a new website trying to sell trilobites has stolen pictures and = text from our site, despite the copyright notice clearly stated at the = bottom of each page. In some cases, he even used our exact wording for = the descriptions. Apparently, he puts his minimal collection of average = to even below average trilobites up for sale, and then covers the rest = of his site with "Galleries" and "Halls of Fame" full of stolen photos = from various other websites. His attempt to convey the impression that = the trilobites were either prepared by him or in his collection is = deceitful and fraudulent. His 'educational' pages within the site are = nothing more than stolen graphics and text from other sites. The owner = of that site clearly lacks the creativity, time, and intelligence (not = to mention stock) that it takes to create a respectable site of his own = and furthermore, in my opinion, lacks the moral fortitude it takes to = earn the trust and business of a solid customer base. His decision to = steal graphics, pictures, and information from this and other websites = clearly shows his dishonesty and questionable character. Despite emails = and phone call requests to remove the material immediately, he has done = nothing of the sort. You can help support our cause by boycotting his = products both on his site (Trilotopia) and through on-line auctions. If = you would like to email him directly- I can give you his email address. = I have found at least 9 people that he has stolen material from now and = I am still compiling a list. If you know of anyone else, please contact = me. I am in touch with an intellectual rights attorney specializing in = web sites. I have posted a notice on my website and am encouraging = others who have been copied to do the same. I think we can't = underestimate the power of the pen. His site, and indeed his whole = illusion is nothing more than a "cut and paste" job from other sites on = the web. We worked very hard to establish an honest web based business. = It is important to know who you can trust. We feel you should also be = aware of who you can't. Thank you!! =20 =20 =20 Sahara Overland, Ltd. www.saharaoverland.com =20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 06:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Nov 23 06:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam In-Reply-To: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> Message-ID: The best thing she can do is to contact the ISP who is hosting the site and see if they will pull the plug on it. I suspect that since she is located outside the US, assuming the offending site is in the US, that her legal recourses are practically limited. Bryan > -----Original Message----- > > forwarded message..... > > can anyone help this woman in a legal sense??? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Meredith Aaronson > To: paleolist@notkin.net > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:50 AM > Subject: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam > > > Dear List Members, > > This is my first posting but I think you will find it very > interesting. My name is Meredith Aaronson and I run > www.SaharaOverland.com with my husband Abdullah (Adam). It has > recently been brought to our attention that a new website trying > to sell trilobites has stolen pictures and text from our site, > despite the copyright notice clearly stated at the bottom of each > page. In some cases, he even used our exact wording for the > descriptions. Apparently, he puts his minimal collection of > average to even below average trilobites up for sale, and then > covers the rest of his site with "Galleries" and "Halls of Fame" > full of stolen photos from various other websites. His attempt > to convey the impression that the trilobites were either prepared > by him or in his collection is deceitful and fraudulent. His > 'educational' pages within the site are nothing more than stolen > graphics and text from other sites. The owner of that site > clearly lacks the creativity, time, and intelligence (not to > mention stock) that it takes to create a respectable site of his > own and furthermore, in my opinion, lacks the moral fortitude it > takes to earn the trust and business of a solid customer base. > His decision to steal graphics, pictures, and information from > this and other websites clearly shows his dishonesty and > questionable character. Despite emails and phone call requests > to remove the material immediately, he has done nothing of the > sort. You can help support our cause by boycotting his products > both on his site (Trilotopia) and through on-line auctions. If > you would like to email him directly- I can give you his email > address. I have found at least 9 people that he has stolen > material from now and I am still compiling a list. If you know > of anyone else, please contact me. I am in touch with an > intellectual rights attorney specializing in web sites. I have > posted a notice on my website and am encouraging others who have > been copied to do the same. I think we can't underestimate the > power of the pen. His site, and indeed his whole illusion is > nothing more than a "cut and paste" job from other sites on the > web. We worked very hard to establish an honest web based > business. It is important to know who you can trust. We feel > you should also be aware of who you can't. Thank you!! > > > > > > > > Sahara Overland, Ltd. > > www.saharaoverland.com > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 09:20:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sherry Pauley) Date: Sat Nov 23 09:20:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> Message-ID: I searched Trilotopia.com and failed to find any photos in the "Galleries" or "Halls of Fame" that matched anything on her site. Can you point them out? Sherry Dear List Members, This is my first posting but I think you will find it very interesting. My name is Meredith Aaronson and I run www.SaharaOverland.com with my husband Abdullah (Adam). It has recently been brought to our attention that a new website trying to sell trilobites has stolen pictures and text from our site, despite the copyright notice clearly stated at the bottom of each page. In some cases, he even used our exact wording for the descriptions. Apparently, he puts his minimal collection of average to even below average trilobites up for sale, and then covers the rest of his site with "Galleries" and "Halls of Fame" full of stolen photos from various other websites. His attempt to convey the impression that the trilobites were either prepared by him or in his collection is deceitful and fraudulent. His 'educational' pages within the site are nothing more than stolen graphics and text from other sites. The owner of that site clearly lacks the creativity, time, and intelligence (not to mention stock) that it takes to create a respectable site of his own and furthermore, in my opinion, lacks the moral fortitude it takes to earn the trust and business of a solid customer base. His decision to steal graphics, pictures, and information from this and other websites clearly shows his dishonesty and questionable character. Despite emails and phone call requests to remove the material immediately, he has done nothing of the sort. You can help support our cause by boycotting his products both on his site (Trilotopia) and through on-line auctions. If you would like to email him directly- I can give you his email address. I have found at least 9 people that he has stolen material from now and I am still compiling a list. If you know of anyone else, please contact me. I am in touch with an intellectual rights attorney specializing in web sites. I have posted a notice on my website and am encouraging others who have been copied to do the same. I think we can't underestimate the power of the pen. His site, and indeed his whole illusion is nothing more than a "cut and paste" job from other sites on the web. We worked very hard to establish an honest web based business. It is important to know who you can trust. We feel you should also be aware of who you can't. Thank you!! Sahara Overland, Ltd. www.saharaoverland.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 12:14:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Nov 23 12:14:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> Message-ID: <3DDFE180.1452@Tomaszewski.net> Michael Schmidt wrote: > > forwarded message..... > > can anyone help this woman in a legal sense??? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Meredith Aaronson > To: paleolist@notkin.net > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:50 AM > Subject: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam IANAL. In a practical sense, the offender's website is hosted by an ISP. The ISP probably publishes a TOS/AUP that prohibits the actions you claim. Using a tool like samspade.org or hexillion.com or combat.uxn.com to identify the ISP, and contacting their abuse team about the violation might get it removed. Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence to protect it. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 15:07:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Nov 23 15:07:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> <3DDFE180.1452@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001701c29346$43e3edc0$7c9f77d5@pandora.be> You could try to "watermark" your pictures. That puts your name in (unvisibly) the picture. Paintshop pro 7.0 has that feature and isn't expensive at all. You have no trouble proving that a watermarked picture belongs to you. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam | Michael Schmidt wrote: | > | > forwarded message..... | > | > can anyone help this woman in a legal sense??? | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: Meredith Aaronson | > To: paleolist@notkin.net | > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:50 AM | > Subject: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam | | IANAL. In a practical sense, the offender's website is hosted by an ISP. | The ISP probably publishes a TOS/AUP that prohibits the actions you | claim. Using a tool like samspade.org or hexillion.com or combat.uxn.com | to identify the ISP, and contacting their abuse team about the violation | might get it removed. Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence | to protect it. | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 16:53:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Sat Nov 23 16:53:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam Message-ID: >Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence to protect it. This statement applies to Trademarks. I don't think it applies to copyrights. And the watermark suggestion, and contacting *and threatening* the ISP may be the best options. Though you should always save "threatening" for later. (The ISP is the equivalent of a publisher. They have taken money to enable an illegal act. And they have the deep pockets.) Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 17:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Sat Nov 23 17:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam Message-ID: And I'm not a lawyer either. On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:52:25 -0800 Chengi Kuo wrote: >> Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence to protect it. > > This statement applies to Trademarks. I don't > think it applies to copyrights. > > And the watermark suggestion, and contacting > *and threatening* the ISP may be > the best options. Though you should always > save "threatening" for later. > (The ISP is the equivalent of a publisher. > They have taken money to enable an > illegal act. And they have the deep pockets.) > > Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 18:53:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Nov 23 18:53:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam {OT Question} References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> <3DDFE180.1452@Tomaszewski.net> <001701c29346$43e3edc0$7c9f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3DE03EF7.445D@Tomaszewski.net> Have you ever tried to watermark a watermarked picture? Can both be recovered? Kreigh Axel Emmermann wrote: > > You could try to "watermark" your pictures. That puts your name in > (unvisibly) the picture. > Paintshop pro 7.0 has that feature and isn't expensive at all. > You have no trouble proving that a watermarked picture belongs to you. > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam > > | Michael Schmidt wrote: > | > > | > forwarded message..... > | > > | > can anyone help this woman in a legal sense??? > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: Meredith Aaronson > | > To: paleolist@notkin.net > | > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:50 AM > | > Subject: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam > | > | IANAL. In a practical sense, the offender's website is hosted by an ISP. > | The ISP probably publishes a TOS/AUP that prohibits the actions you > | claim. Using a tool like samspade.org or hexillion.com or combat.uxn.com > | to identify the ISP, and contacting their abuse team about the violation > | might get it removed. Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence > | to protect it. > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 20:22:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Nov 23 20:22:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Threatening is rarely needed, most ISPs are diligent and ethical and will act promptly, sometimes too promptly on little evidence. The problem ISPs are generally the spammer ISPs who knowingly provide a place for Spammers to reside. Bryan > And the watermark suggestion, and contacting *and threatening* > the ISP may be > the best options. Though you should always save "threatening" for later. > (The ISP is the equivalent of a publisher. They have taken money > to enable an > illegal act. And they have the deep pockets.) From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 22:17:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sherry Pauley) Date: Sat Nov 23 22:17:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] JUNIOR PALEONTOLOGY WORKSHOP Message-ID: Buena Vista Museum of Natural History JUNIOR PALEONTOLOGY WORKSHOP Presented by Jim Mears; Paleontological Specialist from San Diego. Saturday December 14, 2002, 10:00 AM to 12:00 Noon. Participants will procure Pleistocene and present day Olive Shells and mount them on their own personal display placard. Maximum of 25 participants. For Paleontologist from 8 to 14 years of age (younger paleontologists must bring an adult). Fee for materials: $5.00 For reservations call: (661) 324-6350 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 23 23:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sherry Pauley) Date: Sat Nov 23 23:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Miocene Moonlight Madness/Raffle: 3 Carcharoclese megalodon teeth Message-ID: The Buena Vista Museum of Natural History invites you to attend Miocene Moonlight Madness. Saturday, December 14, 2002, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. 2018 Chester Avenue, Bakersfield, CA Admission: $5 per person (includes hors d'oeuvres, beverages, and door prize drawing ticket). Tickets available in advance or at the door. RSVP appreciated at (661) 324-6350 RAFFLE: Enter to win one of 3 Carcharoclese megalodon (giant shark) teeth; Plus fossilized teredo wood from Australia, mineral specimens and more! Raffle tickets are $2 each and are on sale now at the Museum. You need not be present to win. Click on link to view the 3 Carcharoclese megalodon teeth. http://sharktoothhill.com/images/carcharoclese_megalodon.jpg Sherry Pauley Docent/Web Master webmaster@sharktoothhill.com (661) 324-6350 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 24 03:48:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Nov 24 03:48:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam {OT Question} References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> <3DDFE180.1452@Tomaszewski.net> <001701c29346$43e3edc0$7c9f77d5@pandora.be> <3DE03EF7.445D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <003801c293b0$a4435b00$f99f77d5@pandora.be> I doubt that this will work. The quality of he picture will degrade by watermarking it twice. I'll try it (soon as I got the time ;-)))) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 3:55 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam {OT Question} | Have you ever tried to watermark a watermarked picture? Can both be | recovered? | | Kreigh | | | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | > You could try to "watermark" your pictures. That puts your name in | > (unvisibly) the picture. | > Paintshop pro 7.0 has that feature and isn't expensive at all. | > You have no trouble proving that a watermarked picture belongs to you. | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" | > To: | > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:16 PM | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam | > | > | Michael Schmidt wrote: | > | > | > | > forwarded message..... | > | > | > | > can anyone help this woman in a legal sense??? | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > | > From: Meredith Aaronson | > | > To: paleolist@notkin.net | > | > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:50 AM | > | > Subject: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam | > | | > | IANAL. In a practical sense, the offender's website is hosted by an ISP. | > | The ISP probably publishes a TOS/AUP that prohibits the actions you | > | claim. Using a tool like samspade.org or hexillion.com or combat.uxn.com | > | to identify the ISP, and contacting their abuse team about the violation | > | might get it removed. Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence | > | to protect it. | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 24 06:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Nov 24 06:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam {OT Question} References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> <3DDFE180.1452@Tomaszewski.net> <001701c29346$43e3edc0$7c9f77d5@pandora.be> <3DE03EF7.445D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <00bf01c293c5$fdee79e0$f99f77d5@pandora.be> | Have you ever tried to watermark a watermarked picture? Can both be | recovered? | | Kreigh Hi Kreigh, I just tried tried it and my PaintShop Pro 7.0 (Anniversary Edition) says you cannot mark an already marked image. I MAY be possible with other software, I don't know. The watermark can be set to a "strength" depending on the purpose of the photo or image. For print-out you need to have a stroger watermark so scanners will pick it up, making illegal copying through hardware more difficult. This heavier watermarking shows up on the computer monitor as a "cloudiness" that can bee seen by zooming in on evenly coloured patches. Lighter watermarks, as used for web images, do not or hardly show. Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 24 12:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Nov 24 12:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a copy of the USGS Bulletin 1627 with mineral data Message-ID: <3DE13700.1C45F3A5@att.net> Hi all, I am looking for a copy of the Microscopic Determination of the Non-Opaque Minerals, USGS Bulletin 1627, preferably the 1960's reprint. Unfortunately, a web search yielded many many hits with references to the document, but not the document itself for sale. I will keep searching, but meanwhile, if anyone has an extra copy on their shelf, or one they no longer use, I would be interested in buying it. Condition is not important, as long as I can actually read it. Thanks, Don -- Join the /"\ ASCII Ribbon \ / Campaign against x HTML e-mail / \ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 24 16:41:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Nov 24 16:41:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] collector history: Clifford A. Marshall of Staten Is., NY Message-ID: <3DE1723D.FA515247@att.net> Hi all, I was flipping through the Jan-Feb 1962 Rocks & Minerals, when I came across the article "A Trip to the Franklin-Sterling Mineral Exhibit," by Clifford A. Marshall. The first B&W photo shows a man and woman of at least middle age, possibly toward senior age. The article is hilarious because of the chronological changes; i.e., the admission was $1--for which they received a descriptive booklet, a map, and mine tour--and there were over 191 (compare today's 355+) known species, of which 28 were unique and 25 fluoresced. For those into esoterica, one sentence reads "Across the street from the entrance, an enterprising dealer was doing business from a card table and car trunk from which he displayed the sign 'FRANKLIN MINERALS'." This can only have been Nick Zipco, who just turned 90 and until last year still haunted the parking lot of the Franklin Mineral Museum (he is now too infirm to drive, and I heard he and his wife sold their car). I doubt Mr. Marshall is still alive, but if he is, I'd like to get in touch with him. I know we have a fairly active NY population on the list and someone might still know him. Thanks, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Nov 24 19:04:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Nov 24 19:04:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam {OT Question} References: <005801c292fc$b2d93b30$2ae294d1@hewlettlydtpep> <3DDFE180.1452@Tomaszewski.net> <001701c29346$43e3edc0$7c9f77d5@pandora.be> <3DE03EF7.445D@Tomaszewski.net> <00bf01c293c5$fdee79e0$f99f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3DE19307.4482@Tomaszewski.net> Thanks! Axel Emmermann wrote: > > | Have you ever tried to watermark a watermarked picture? Can both be > | recovered? > | > | Kreigh > > Hi Kreigh, > > I just tried tried it and my PaintShop Pro 7.0 (Anniversary Edition) says > you cannot mark an already marked image. I MAY be possible with other > software, I don't know. > The watermark can be set to a "strength" depending on the purpose of the > photo or image. > For print-out you need to have a stroger watermark so scanners will pick it > up, making illegal copying through hardware more difficult. This heavier > watermarking shows up on the computer monitor as a "cloudiness" that can bee > seen by zooming in on evenly coloured patches. > Lighter watermarks, as used for web images, do not or hardly show. > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 04:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Nov 25 04:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a copy of the USGS Bulletin 1627 with mineral data Message-ID: <17b.121228ec.2b13756a@aol.com> Dear Don, Be sure to search using www.bookfinder.com. Regarding USGS Bulletin 1627 Microscopic Determination of the Nonopaque Minerals by Fleischer, Wilcox, and Matzko 1984. Are you saying that this book is no longer available from the USGS? Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 07:10:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Nov 25 07:10:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] There's emaralds in thar hills! In-Reply-To: <17b.121228ec.2b13756a@aol.com> Message-ID: There has been an emerald strike in the Yukon: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=568&e=4&u=/nm/20021124/bs_n m/bizcanada_emeralds_dc Get your sled dogs ready. Bryan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 07:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (David R. Dick) Date: Mon Nov 25 07:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: [Paleolist] Trilotopia Web scam In-Reply-To: from "Chengi Kuo" at Nov 23, 2002 04:52:25 PM Message-ID: <200211240102.UAA11654@gateway.sii-nh.com> > > >Copyright can be lost due to lack of due diligence to protect it. > > This statement applies to Trademarks. I don't think it applies to copyrights. > > And the watermark suggestion, and contacting *and threatening* the ISP may be > the best options. Though you should always save "threatening" for later. > (The ISP is the equivalent of a publisher. They have taken money to enable an > illegal act. And they have the deep pockets.) > > Jimmy > _______________________________________________ In the US, ISPs are *not* publishers, because they have no editorial control over customer content. They also have a "safe harbor" provision in the most recent copyright legislation: as long as they respond to properly formulated notifications that one of their customers is violating copyright, the ISP has no liability. They also have no responsibility to monitor how their customers use their webspace. (This assumes we're talking about the ISP's servers.) So contacting the ISP is certainly the way to go; just be definite in identifying the violation. BTW, there are plenty of small ISPs in the US who do not have "deep pockets". Most aren't at all like AOL, Earthlink, or MSN. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 07:11:07 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Meredith Aaronson) Date: Mon Nov 25 07:11:07 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: <002601c2945e$c88ebeb0$1c7bfea9@MEREDITH> Dear List Members, Thank you for the support you have given us for taking a stand against the trilotopia people. I received so many emails already with advice and suggestions for additional avenues. All the people that we can find that have had information/text/data/graphics used without permission or attribution are being contacted and asked for the specific details that were used. I am in the midst of compiling a list of the specific bugs and information he is using on his site that are not his. As for my site- the drutops armatus that he has in his Gallery of Moroccan bugs (the 12th bug down the left hand side, right under the asteropyge)is mine. It was not sold to him, or anyone else who turned around and sold it to him. It was on my site and was taken off a few weeks ago. I still have it in my lab!! The words in his description are my words verbatim. You may also recognize information and graphics from the website of Sam Gon- most easily perhaps the animated trilobite walking and another trilobite enrolling. Also, someone suggested the ISP hosting his site might possibly pull the plug. It is my understanding Yahoo has already been contacted and declined any action on their part. Perhaps we should try again; if they hear from more than one source they may have a change of heart. I was also given a second contact name and email for trilotopia, so I will try the direct approach again and simply ask that my material be removed- you never know! Thanks again for all the feedback- it is nice to recognize what a small community we really are! Meredith Sahara Overland, Ltd. www.saharaoverland.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 07:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Mon Nov 25 07:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] There's emeralds in thar hills! References: Message-ID: <001a01c29497$4f345f00$9e06efd1@oemcomputer> This is actually fairly old news. The discovery was made at least a year or two ago, and they still won't say if the beryl is any good. They were supposed to be doing some test pits, but I haven't seen anybody showing off nice cut stones. Don't go buying stock. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Cc: Sent: November 25, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] There's emaralds in thar hills! > There has been an emerald strike in the Yukon: > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=568&e=4&u=/nm/20021124/bs_n > m/bizcanada_emeralds_dc > > Get your sled dogs ready. > > Bryan > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 15:00:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Mon Nov 25 15:00:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a copy of the USGS Bulletin 1627 with mineral data References: <17b.121228ec.2b13756a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DE2AC24.DDBA8FA7@att.net> Thanks to everyone who helped on and off-list. I got a copy. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Nov 25 15:40:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Mon Nov 25 15:40:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] een weekje weg... Message-ID: <006401c294db$de2fabd0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, bezocht vorige week / visited last week with Wim Wijshoff and Stephane = Cuchet: -Clara (.de), -Schmiedestollen/Wittichen (.de), -Silberbrunnle (.de), -Menzenschwand (.de), -Crettaz-mine (.ch) and the -Gros Tiu (.ch) meer op / more on: http://www.strahlen.org/ Cheers! Frank --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 26 05:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Nov 26 05:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Should it be Schwar_zeNbergite? Message-ID: <18f.11cfd94b.2b14d23d@aol.com> The man for whom schwarTzeMbergite was named appears to surely have been Adolf Schwar_zeNberg. Adolf Schwarzenberg traveled from his home town of Kassel, Germany in late 1849 and arrived in Chile in January of 1850. (Anyone more fluent in German than I am willing to tackle a German language genealogy search? Dr. Wolfgang Griem, of the Museum of the University of Atacama, whom I contacted through http://plata.uda.cl/minas/apuntes/Geologia/geologiageneral/museo1.htm Found that Adolf Schwarzenberg, of Kassel, was listed in Copiapo, Chile as an assayer in a town directory. Adolf Schwarzenberg's journey to Chile is cited by home.t-online.de/home/fillinchen/reise-d.htm A descendant of the Adolf Schwarzenberg the assayer may have been written about in http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:UeWmzrs5vXoC:ukinet.com/books/odessa/text /chile01.htm+Adolf+Schwarzenberg+Chile+1850&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 The question may be, "Who really named schwartzembergite?" Dana (1868) cites two earlier sources for the mineral. One reference was Ignacio Domeyko's Elementos de Mineralojia, second edition, of 1860. The other reference was Annales des Mines, volume 5, sixth series, (1864), p. 453. I have tried to locate both references in local libraries, which are otherwise fairly complete, but the source books are not available. Could I ask one of you to look this up in your copy of Domeyko or in Annales des Mines at a local large college's library? Additionally, there may be a reference to the correct name of the man for whom schwartzembergite was named. Best Regards, Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Nov 26 06:19:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Pete Richards) Date: Tue Nov 26 06:19:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] ExtraLapis In-Reply-To: <18f.11cfd94b.2b14d23d@aol.com> Message-ID: I am looking for copies in good condition of ExtraLapis (German) volumes 1, 3, and 16. I am willing to buy them or exchange them for back issues of Mineralogical Record and/or Rocks and Minerals. Many of these back issues include articles that I have contributed, and I will autograph them if so desired. I personally don't think that adds much to the value of the issue, but some folks do.... Please contact me off list to work out details. Thanks, Pete Richards -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 08:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Wed Nov 27 08:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps Message-ID: <001801c29630$5a42f790$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, Ik ben begonnen postzegels met mineralen op mijn site te plakken (dan hoef je tenminste niet te likken ;-) Zie: http://www.strahlen.org/ pagina 'stamps'. Alleen toen ik de postzegels verzamelde, ben ik een beetje vergeten (dom = dom dom) te noteren van welk jaar de zegels waren etc. Kan iemand op de = lijst me daarmee helpen? Ik vind op het internet niet alles terug... I've started putting the mineral stamps I have online,=20 see the stamps-section on http://www.strahlen.org/ but have forgotten the years of issue of the stamps can anyone help me with that? Cheers, Frank --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 08:26:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Wed Nov 27 08:26:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] weed wacker rock saw References: <163.172ec44a.2b064f5d@aol.com> Message-ID: <001b01c29632$07315540$af06efd1@oemcomputer> A nifty portable diamond-blade gas-powered rock saw, basically a converted weed wacker, can be seen in action at: http://www.lakeneosho.org/SLIP8.html. Has anybody on the list used this? How does it compare to a portable cement saw fitted with a diamond blade? Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr tjokela@execulink.com http://www.element51.com http://www.ontariominerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 08:37:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 27 08:37:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] weed wacker rock saw Message-ID: <1bf.15cbedee.2b164e8c@aol.com> In a message dated 11/27/02 10:26:49 AM Central Standard Time, tjokela@execulink.com writes: > http://www.lakeneosho.org/SLIP8.html That does look like a workable thing...now a little water gadget on top of the guard and you could cut all day.... Having used the protable gas powered saws with a diamond blade befoe I can tell you that the WEIGHT would be considerable less and the expense alot less as well. I haven't tried it but what about the hand held battery operated circular saw with a diamond blade? Mush lighter and much cheaper. For now and till then, JOHN --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 09:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Nov 27 09:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps In-Reply-To: <001801c29630$5a42f790$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127072544.020dfc90@mail.aloha.net> At 06:14 AM 11/27/2002, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I've started putting the mineral stamps I have online, >see the stamps-section on http://www.strahlen.org/ >but have forgotten the years of issue of the stamps >can anyone help me with that? > >Cheers, Frank Neat stamps! I didn't know there were that many rock/mineral stamps. One stamp you ask:...country? Tristan Da Cunha is an island in the south Atlantic, part of the St. Helena Protectorate of Great Britain. It is on the Mid Atlantic Ridge, just north of the Tristan Da Cunha fracture zone. It is chiefly known as an exporter of Rock Lobsters. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 09:23:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (LAWRENCE L. DEE) Date: Wed Nov 27 09:23:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: microscope for sale References: <1bf.15cbedee.2b164e8c@aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c29639$d716e7a0$e368bb3f@n7y7z7> I have a Russian Lomo MBC-10 stereo binocular microscope for sale at a great price. If interested please msg me offline. LD From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 09:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 27 09:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] weed wacker rock saw Message-ID: <20021127173602.NBJE24110.mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc16> Excellent! These guys are clever, hats off to SLIP. It looks like they are cutting into limestone, or similar soft material. I'm not sure if a weed-whacker has the torque to cut through petrified wood, perhaps, or at least not very quickly; still, I think this is a great idea and would help field collectors a lot. I'd like to see somebody experiment with it and see just what it can do. Don > Has anybody on the list used this? > > How does it compare to a portable cement saw fitted with a diamond blade? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 09:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (H.Durstling) Date: Wed Nov 27 09:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] weed wacker rock saw Message-ID: On the topic of exotic diamond saws, does anyone know if there is such a thing as a diamond chain saw? Has anyone ever seen or used one? Cheers, Hans Durstling Moncton, Canasda From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 10:18:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Nov 27 10:18:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] weed wacker rock saw In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Hans, Yes there is a diamond chainsaw. Collectors Edge uses one with great success at the Sweet Home Mine for those rhodochrosites, and Bob Jackson has started using one at the Spruce Claim. Bob says it is a great tool. You can contact him through geologyadventures.com. Regards, Lanny >On the topic of exotic diamond saws, does anyone know if there is such a >thing as a diamond chain saw? Has anyone ever seen or used one? > >Cheers, >Hans Durstling >Moncton, Canasda > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Nov 27 11:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans) Date: Wed Nov 27 11:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] stamps References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127072544.020dfc90@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <062201c29649$534c8d20$8e9d76d5@pandora.be> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" > At 06:14 AM 11/27/2002, you wrote: > > Neat stamps! I didn't know there were that many rock/mineral stamps. One > stamp you ask:...country? > Dear Kitty & list, At this moment there are about 1500 different stamps depicting minerals. A suite of those can be seen at my site (click on the stamps link at the top of the page): http://www.xlizd.com Cheers, Herwig Herwig Pelckmans Worldwide Mineral Collector Cardijnstraat 12 B-3530 Helchteren Belgium Europe From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 07:14:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:14:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps References: <001801c29630$5a42f790$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Message-ID: <003101c296f0$6394aa80$1e3f27c4@horstspc> Hi Frank, I opened your interesting website, but was unable to find your mineral postage stamps, thus cannot find out with which issues you have problems with. I do however have the dates of issue of the mineral stamps issued by South West Africa (issued on 16th November 1989) and subsequently the same set (with a few minor alterations - chemical formula of dioptase changed and values of 7c, 18c and 45c deleted and the new 65c being the old 18c, the new R1,50 being the old 45c) was issued on 2nd January 1991. (I have a First Day Cover of each set in my collection). Kind regards, Horst----- Original Message ----- From: "frank de wit" To: ; "e- min" Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps Hi all, Ik ben begonnen postzegels met mineralen op mijn site te plakken (dan hoef je tenminste niet te likken ;-) Zie: http://www.strahlen.org/ pagina 'stamps'. Alleen toen ik de postzegels verzamelde, ben ik een beetje vergeten (dom dom dom) te noteren van welk jaar de zegels waren etc. Kan iemand op de lijst me daarmee helpen? Ik vind op het internet niet alles terug... I've started putting the mineral stamps I have online, see the stamps-section on http://www.strahlen.org/ but have forgotten the years of issue of the stamps can anyone help me with that? Cheers, Frank --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 07:16:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:16:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Thumbnail Display System In-Reply-To: <062201c29649$534c8d20$8e9d76d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: I finally got around to posting one of my thumbnail displays for those special tn's. Please take a look and give me some feed back. Thanks http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3225&item=741598853&r d=1 Tommy Armstrong N 35* 23' 52'' W 78* 49' 9'' From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 07:54:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:54:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] (no subject) Message-ID: <20021127135836.RACH663.fl-webmail02@fl-webmail02> Greetings! I would like to remind members of the list about the Columbia, SC show this weekend. My booth is hard to miss as I have UT orange table coverings! Dates: Friday-Sunday, November 29th & 30th and December 1st Hours: Friday - 10:00 am - 7:00 pm Saturday -10:00 am - 6:00 pm Sunday - 12:00 noon - 5:00 pm Location: South Carolina State Fairgrounds Rosewood Dr. Hope to see you there! Stop by and say "HI!" and introduce yourself. Maybe you'll even see something I have that you can't live without. And then I'll have more to spend on my addiction with other dealers! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 07:59:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:59:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] [e-min] postzegels / stamps Message-ID: <0.1300009610.56802726-1463747838-1038413813@topica.com> Hi all, Ik ben begonnen postzegels met mineralen op mijn site te plakken (dan hoef je tenminste niet te likken ;-) Zie: http://www.strahlen.org/ pagina 'stamps'. Alleen toen ik de postzegels verzamelde, ben ik een beetje vergeten (dom dom dom) te noteren van welk jaar de zegels waren etc. Kan iemand op de lijst me daarmee helpen? Ik vind op het internet niet alles terug... I've started putting the mineral stamps I have online, see the stamps-section on http://www.strahlen.org/ but have forgotten the years of issue of the stamps can anyone help me with that? Cheers, Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ e-min, mineralogie-discussielijst berichten sturen naar mineralogie@topica.com "attachments" zijn niet toegestaan archief: http://www.topica.com/lists/mineralogie/read meer informatie http://www.minerant.org/MKA/e-min.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ==^^=============================================================== This email was sent to: s.v.delft@hetnet.nl EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8R26.bAmNZ6.cy52LmRl Or send an email to: mineralogie-unsubscribe@topica.com T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^=============================================================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 07:59:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:59:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] [e-min] postzegels / stamps Message-ID: <0.1300009610.56802726-1463747838-1038413813@topica.com> Hi all, Ik ben begonnen postzegels met mineralen op mijn site te plakken (dan hoef je tenminste niet te likken ;-) Zie: http://www.strahlen.org/ pagina 'stamps'. Alleen toen ik de postzegels verzamelde, ben ik een beetje vergeten (dom dom dom) te noteren van welk jaar de zegels waren etc. Kan iemand op de lijst me daarmee helpen? Ik vind op het internet niet alles terug... I've started putting the mineral stamps I have online, see the stamps-section on http://www.strahlen.org/ but have forgotten the years of issue of the stamps can anyone help me with that? Cheers, Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ e-min, mineralogie-discussielijst berichten sturen naar mineralogie@topica.com "attachments" zijn niet toegestaan archief: http://www.topica.com/lists/mineralogie/read meer informatie http://www.minerant.org/MKA/e-min.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ==^^=============================================================== This email was sent to: codepeet@hetnet.nl EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8R26.a91ezz.Y29kZXBl Or send an email to: mineralogie-unsubscribe@topica.com T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^=============================================================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 07:59:14 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Nov 28 07:59:14 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] [e-min] postzegels / stamps Message-ID: <0.1300009610.56802726-1463747838-1038413813@topica.com> Hi all, Ik ben begonnen postzegels met mineralen op mijn site te plakken (dan hoef je tenminste niet te likken ;-) Zie: http://www.strahlen.org/ pagina 'stamps'. Alleen toen ik de postzegels verzamelde, ben ik een beetje vergeten (dom dom dom) te noteren van welk jaar de zegels waren etc. Kan iemand op de lijst me daarmee helpen? Ik vind op het internet niet alles terug... I've started putting the mineral stamps I have online, see the stamps-section on http://www.strahlen.org/ but have forgotten the years of issue of the stamps can anyone help me with that? Cheers, Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ e-min, mineralogie-discussielijst berichten sturen naar mineralogie@topica.com "attachments" zijn niet toegestaan archief: http://www.topica.com/lists/mineralogie/read meer informatie http://www.minerant.org/MKA/e-min.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ==^^=============================================================== This email was sent to: cheavings@hetnet.nl EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bz8R26.a910vp.Y2hlYXZp Or send an email to: mineralogie-unsubscribe@topica.com T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^=============================================================== From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 08:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Johan Maertens) Date: Thu Nov 28 08:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps In-Reply-To: <20021128020002.21230.83382.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Frank, I have list (not available on-line & off-line) with over 3000 geology and mineral related stamps. I will look up the missing dates. You may want to check websites like: American Philatelist - Show Time Column http://www.stamps.org/aps/services/ap/showtime.htm Big Bear's Minerals & Gems on Stamps http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/marine/335/ Bob's Rock Shop Collecting Rock Stamps http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/stamps.html County Stamp Center is your one-stop online guide to the world of stamps. http://www.stampcenter.com/ Gem, Rock, and Mineral Postage Stamps http://stampmin.home.att.net/country.htm Keimar Stamps Minerals & Fossils http://business.fortunecity.com/bren/614/mineralsfossils_index.html Minerals, French Polynesia, St Pierre, FSAT, Worldwide Topical Stamps http://home.att.net/~SLRALBANY/MINERALS.html New Jersey Stamp Shows Calendar http://www.stampshows.com/newjersey.html Personal Want List Zillionsof Stamps http://www.zillionsofstamps.com/scripts/texis.exe/zillions/stamps/+Bt de4JddwFqpeNkwqDnGwcCaGdqAeZVbdmRH7mSwwwP_qhxGonh/wants.html SilverDalen Stamps - Free Digital Stamp Catalogues - Stamps For Sale - SilverDalen Stamps Club http://www.silverdalen.se/stamps/ SOUTHERN AFRICAN STAMPS Eastgate Universal Stamps & Coins. Minerals & Metals http://www.sastamps.com/minerals.htm Stamp Collecting - Welcome from The Mining Co. http://collectstamps.miningco.com/ Stamp Collecting by Peter G. Aitken http://www.pgacon.com/stampcol.asp?visitor=linktome Stamp Trader List http://www.stamptraderlist.dk/ Thematicsource http://www.zillionsofstamps.com/scripts/texis.exe/zillions/stamps/dea ler.html?Did=379761f45 Topical Stamps http://www.topicalstamps.com/ USA stampshows http://www.stampshows.com/#usa Zillions of Stamps Stamp Search http://www.zillionsofstamps.com/ Johan Maertens mineral.maertens@att.net Says one hydrogen atom, "I think I've lost an electron." Another atom asks, "Are you sure?" The first atom replies, "Yes, I'm positive..." Do you like minerals and other earth treasures? Visit the Mineral Collectors Page by the Mineral Club of Antwerp at http://www.minerant.org Enjoy the beauty of calcite and join the International Calcite Collectors Association Visit http://www.minerant.org/clubs/icca.html or http://www.rockhounds.com/icca/ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 08:53:48 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Nov 28 08:53:48 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127072544.020dfc90@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <009701c296fe$db7da7a0$18a1f7a5@peggy> Frank Nice stamps! I have been collecting Geological stamps for a while. I've generated quite a long list of mineral stamps, dinosaur stamps, mining stamps, oil stamps, etc. Here is some info about the stamps you show: Australia issued July 11, 1973 Scott # 558-562 Brazil a) issued Nov 19, 1977 Scott # 1537-1539 b) issued July 12, 1989 Scott # 2198-2199 Cyprus issued May 3, 1983 Scott #596 Finland issued Feb. 8, 1986 Scott #732-734 French Southern Antartic Terr. a)Mesolite issued Jan 1, 1989 Scott #146 b)Analcime issued Jan 1, 1989 Scott # 147 c) Aragonite issued Jan 1, 1990 Scott #156 France issued Sept 13, 1986 Scott #2017-2020 DDR a) issued Feb 22, 1977 Scott #1354-1358 (1 missing from set) b) issued May 21, 1969 Scott # 1105-1110 c) issued Dec 17, 1974 Scott # 1604-1609 d) issued Oct 24, 1978 Scott #1960 Greece issued Sept 22, 1980 Scott #1367-1373 Israel issued Dec 29, 1981 Scott #795-797 b) issued Feb 7, 1968 Scott # C47 Kenya set issued Dec 13, 1977 top row Scott # 98-102, bottom row Scott # 105, 107-108 North Korea issued 1986, no Scott # Liechtenstein issued Dec 4, 1989, Scott # 921-923 Madagascar not Malaysia issued April 12, 1989 Scott #917 & 918 Angola not Portugal issued Oct 31, 1970 scott #560 (1 of a large set) Tristan issued June 9, 1978 Scott #239-242 USA issued June 13, 1974 Scott # 1538-1541 I hope this helps some. Kenny From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Nov 28 15:24:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Nov 28 15:24:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127072544.020dfc90@mail.aloha.net> <009701c296fe$db7da7a0$18a1f7a5@peggy> Message-ID: <002501c29735$24ae9fc0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> You have all been of GREAT help ! thanks very much; I made some very (;-) stupid mistakes with names&dates I will try to scan&upload more stamps this weekend Joachim.Esche@t-systems.com mailed me a great Excel sheet with (I think) all possible stamps worldwide I still have to look into all the websites about mineral stamps thanks again cheers, Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] postzegels / stamps > Frank > Nice stamps! > I have been collecting Geological stamps for a while. I've generated quite a > long list of mineral stamps, dinosaur stamps, mining stamps, oil stamps, > etc. > Here is some info about the stamps you show: > > Australia issued July 11, 1973 Scott # 558-562 > Brazil a) issued Nov 19, 1977 Scott # 1537-1539 > b) issued July 12, 1989 Scott # 2198-2199 > Cyprus issued May 3, 1983 Scott #596 > Finland issued Feb. 8, 1986 Scott #732-734 > French Southern Antartic Terr. a)Mesolite issued Jan 1, 1989 Scott #146 > b)Analcime issued Jan 1, > 1989 Scott # 147 > c) Aragonite issued Jan 1, > 1990 Scott #156 > France issued Sept 13, 1986 Scott #2017-2020 > DDR a) issued Feb 22, 1977 Scott #1354-1358 (1 missing from set) > b) issued May 21, 1969 Scott # 1105-1110 > c) issued Dec 17, 1974 Scott # 1604-1609 > d) issued Oct 24, 1978 Scott #1960 > Greece issued Sept 22, 1980 Scott #1367-1373 > Israel issued Dec 29, 1981 Scott #795-797 > b) issued Feb 7, 1968 Scott # C47 > Kenya set issued Dec 13, 1977 top row Scott # 98-102, bottom row Scott # > 105, 107-108 > North Korea issued 1986, no Scott # > Liechtenstein issued Dec 4, 1989, Scott # 921-923 > Madagascar not Malaysia issued April 12, 1989 Scott #917 & 918 > Angola not Portugal issued Oct 31, 1970 scott #560 (1 of a large set) > Tristan issued June 9, 1978 Scott #239-242 > USA issued June 13, 1974 Scott # 1538-1541 > > I hope this helps some. > Kenny > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Nov 30 12:23:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Sat Nov 30 12:23:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rotem (.be) and Concordiahutte/Stolberg (.de) Message-ID: <001201c298ae$26a1e1f0$1b507ad9@cp282677a> Hi all, Erik Hos and I visited Rotem (.be) and Concordiahutte/Stolberg (.de) = today. And, of course, met Richard de Nul and Tom Boschmans on Rotem ;-) Photo's etc. are on: http://www.strahlen.org/ Cheers! Frank --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html ---