From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 08:01:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Sun Sep 1 07:01:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites References: <3D71890A.872F9078@cox.net> Message-ID: <3D721D96.6A545B70@earthlink.net> In California, a property owner can own only to the MEAN high water (high tide) mark. I believe that is in the ocean as well as tidal estuaries and rivers. Walt TAM wrote: > Bryan, > Yes it is the same bunch, David Geffen who 19 years ago signed the > notice that there was to be a public access right of way to the beach > adjacent to his home. It made tonight's news with photos showing barbed > wire atop fences to keep those living across the street from enjoying > the beach which belongs to the people. Unfortunately some cannot > understand, property on the ocean side of the street does not include > the beach. > Teresa > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 08:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Sun Sep 1 07:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] private beaches? References: Message-ID: <005801c251c2$7aaf2880$b18d4d0c@jade> To get some sort of uniformity, it seems like those in power would have to declare all beaches National Park areas with the states involved kicking in most of the maintainance. The ultra rich could still build back from the area and be assured of gorgeous views of sunrises or sunsets because no one could build in front of them in the "park" areas. People who visit the beach areas would be violating Federal laws if they messed the places up. Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:15 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > If this is the same bunch I've been hearing about then don't feel too bad > for the movie moguls. They all signed agreements to provide public beach > access in order to get building permits on the beach front. However once the > houses were up they "forgot" about public access. The public already had > access before these mansions were put up and then blocked access so they > have taken away something that the public already had. I am a strong private > property advocate but blocking beach access doesn't fall under those rights. > > We have the same problem here in Florida, beaches which I used as a kid are > now impossible to get to. The people who built houses block all street > parking so that even tho there are public access ramps to the beach they are > worthless unless you want to walk 4 or 5 miles from the nearest public > parking. > > Bryan > > -----Original Message----- > > good for them! > > I get really tired of all these pc twits who think that everything belongs > to everyone. > > If ALL people behaved in a responsible fashion, maybe the world would be a > nicer, more free place to live, with people sharing more often. > > Unfortunately, some idiot will gain access to some "movie mogul's" private > beach, and hurt himself and then sue the guy's but off! Or a bunch of > drunken kids will party there all night and leave a huge mess for someone > else to clean up.... > > we don't live in a perfect, selfles world. > > private property is just that- PRIVATE, and it should be respected. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TAM" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:46 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > > > > Don, > > About access to mineral sites now on mega-estates, California has a law > > of free access to all beaches and ocean for the public as the beaches > > and ocean of California belong to all the people. This is now being > > challenged by Hollywood Mega Moguls who want their piece of the beach > > private. There is an active law suit now in Santa Barbara with several > > in Malibu waiting in the wings. > > Teresa > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 08:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Sun Sep 1 07:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites References: <3D71890A.872F9078@cox.net> <001401c25171$d0d8f930$ccc494d1@hewlettlydtpep> Message-ID: <006301c251c2$afd0d7c0$b18d4d0c@jade> I'd take the beach over a movie most any day! Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schmidt" To: Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > if that is the case, then don't put any money into Geffen's pocket. > > the next time a Dreamworks SKG film comes out (Saving Private Ryan, > Gladiator, Shrek, Artificial Intelligence, Road to Perdition, the Time > Machine, Band of Brothers, Minority Report, A Beautiful Mind, etc., etc., > etc.) don't put any money into Geffen's pocket....don't go see his films. > > Somehow, though, I doubt you or anyone else will do that. It's far easier > just to comment about it and cry foul than it is to actually take a stand on > it and do something to financially hurt the guy....especially when it means > giving up enjoyable movies. > > What a monster we've all created....... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TAM" > To: d > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > > > > Bryan, > > Yes it is the same bunch, David Geffen who 19 years ago signed the > > notice that there was to be a public access right of way to the beach > > adjacent to his home. It made tonight's news with photos showing barbed > > wire atop fences to keep those living across the street from enjoying > > the beach which belongs to the people. Unfortunately some cannot > > understand, property on the ocean side of the street does not include > > the beach. > > Teresa > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 08:27:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Sun Sep 1 07:27:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] private beaches? References: <005801c251c2$7aaf2880$b18d4d0c@jade> Message-ID: <3D722392.467CFC29@earthlink.net> God, Jane, the last thing we want is the feds involved in it. The State of CA is bad enuf. Let's just make it public land and get the access cleared up. Lord help us when the feds get involved. If it were a state park or even a national park you could not pick up a stone from the beach legally. Nice thought about making it public, but another way, please. Walt Jane Davis wrote: > To get some sort of uniformity, it seems like those in power would have to > declare all beaches National Park areas with the states involved kicking in > most of the maintainance. The ultra rich could still build back from the > area and be assured of gorgeous views of sunrises or sunsets because no one > could build in front of them in the "park" areas. People who visit the > beach areas would be violating Federal laws if they messed the places up. > Jane > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:15 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > > > If this is the same bunch I've been hearing about then don't feel too bad > > for the movie moguls. They all signed agreements to provide public beach > > access in order to get building permits on the beach front. However once > the > > houses were up they "forgot" about public access. The public already had > > access before these mansions were put up and then blocked access so they > > have taken away something that the public already had. I am a strong > private > > property advocate but blocking beach access doesn't fall under those > rights. > > > > We have the same problem here in Florida, beaches which I used as a kid > are > > now impossible to get to. The people who built houses block all street > > parking so that even tho there are public access ramps to the beach they > are > > worthless unless you want to walk 4 or 5 miles from the nearest public > > parking. > > > > Bryan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > good for them! > > > > I get really tired of all these pc twits who think that everything belongs > > to everyone. > > > > If ALL people behaved in a responsible fashion, maybe the world would be a > > nicer, more free place to live, with people sharing more often. > > > > Unfortunately, some idiot will gain access to some "movie mogul's" private > > beach, and hurt himself and then sue the guy's but off! Or a bunch of > > drunken kids will party there all night and leave a huge mess for someone > > else to clean up.... > > > > we don't live in a perfect, selfles world. > > > > private property is just that- PRIVATE, and it should be respected. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "TAM" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:46 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > > > > > > > Don, > > > About access to mineral sites now on mega-estates, California has a law > > > of free access to all beaches and ocean for the public as the beaches > > > and ocean of California belong to all the people. This is now being > > > challenged by Hollywood Mega Moguls who want their piece of the beach > > > private. There is an active law suit now in Santa Barbara with several > > > in Malibu waiting in the wings. > > > Teresa > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 08:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Selby Bob) Date: Sun Sep 1 07:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Gem and Mineral Websites and Show Message-ID: <20020901142703.49421.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I am new to this thread and would like to introduce a website for two gem and mineral clubs in Washington State. The clubs are in Port Townsend and the Clallam County. The URL is http://www.OlympicRocks.com/ The site has information about our show in Sequim coming on Oct 4-6, classified Ads, and the clubs newsletters and a whole lot more. Please check us out! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 08:49:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Sep 1 07:49:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] private beaches? Message-ID: <12d.16a247f7.2aa382ce@aol.com> Laws vary by state. In many states in the East and some in the West (but not all) the Riparian Laws cede the beach to the mean high water mark on all navigable water ways to the public. (note some exceptions such as the New Jersey state line at the Lower Delaware river in places ends at the high water mark, so in these areas when you collect at low water on the Jersey side, you are in Delaware. Virginia, where the rights of property owners extend to mean low water). But where the rights end at high water it means that the deeded land ends at the mean high water line. Furthermore many states require public beach access across private land. Unfortunately, you need an army of lawyers to enforce what are already your rights in these states. You don't need any law changes for those states. Note, again, laws vary by state so be sure you know the state laws where you are collecting. I suggest that you ask permission, it's always best; never argue with and armed landowner even if he is dead wrong; and get a copy of the Plat Maps in the area you are collecting. You may be amazed what you find. Gene Hartstein From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 09:25:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Sep 1 08:25:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites In-Reply-To: <3D721D96.6A545B70@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Its the same here in Florida, plus the state owns lake and river bottoms, these are called Waters of the State. There have been long legal battles over whether certain bodies fall into that category, Fisheating Creek in South Florida is the classic example that fight lasted for ten years. Bryan -----Original Message----- In California, a property owner can own only to the MEAN high water (high tide) mark. I believe that is in the ocean as well as tidal estuaries and rivers. Walt TAM wrote: > Bryan, > Yes it is the same bunch, David Geffen who 19 years ago signed the > notice that there was to be a public access right of way to the beach > adjacent to his home. It made tonight's news with photos showing barbed > wire atop fences to keep those living across the street from enjoying > the beach which belongs to the people. Unfortunately some cannot > understand, property on the ocean side of the street does not include > the beach. > Teresa > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 09:54:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Sun Sep 1 08:54:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] private beaches? References: <005801c251c2$7aaf2880$b18d4d0c@jade> <3D722392.467CFC29@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002501c251d1$527f89e0$398c4d0c@jade> Not to worry Walt, it was just an idea to stir up other ideas.... Jane (stirring think pot) ;^) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] private beaches? > God, Jane, the last thing we want is the feds involved in it. The State of CA > is bad enuf. Let's just make it public land and get the access cleared up. > Lord help us when the feds get involved. If it were a state park or even a > national park you could not pick up a stone from the beach legally. Nice > thought about making it public, but another way, please. > > Walt > > Jane Davis wrote: > > > To get some sort of uniformity, it seems like those in power would have to > > declare all beaches National Park areas with the states involved kicking in > > most of the maintainance. The ultra rich could still build back from the > > area and be assured of gorgeous views of sunrises or sunsets because no one > > could build in front of them in the "park" areas. People who visit the > > beach areas would be violating Federal laws if they messed the places up. > > Jane > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:15 PM > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > > > > > If this is the same bunch I've been hearing about then don't feel too bad > > > for the movie moguls. They all signed agreements to provide public beach > > > access in order to get building permits on the beach front. However once > > the > > > houses were up they "forgot" about public access. The public already had > > > access before these mansions were put up and then blocked access so they > > > have taken away something that the public already had. I am a strong > > private > > > property advocate but blocking beach access doesn't fall under those > > rights. > > > > > > We have the same problem here in Florida, beaches which I used as a kid > > are > > > now impossible to get to. The people who built houses block all street > > > parking so that even tho there are public access ramps to the beach they > > are > > > worthless unless you want to walk 4 or 5 miles from the nearest public > > > parking. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > good for them! > > > > > > I get really tired of all these pc twits who think that everything belongs > > > to everyone. > > > > > > If ALL people behaved in a responsible fashion, maybe the world would be a > > > nicer, more free place to live, with people sharing more often. > > > > > > Unfortunately, some idiot will gain access to some "movie mogul's" private > > > beach, and hurt himself and then sue the guy's but off! Or a bunch of > > > drunken kids will party there all night and leave a huge mess for someone > > > else to clean up.... > > > > > > we don't live in a perfect, selfles world. > > > > > > private property is just that- PRIVATE, and it should be respected. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "TAM" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:46 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites > > > > > > > > > > Don, > > > > About access to mineral sites now on mega-estates, California has a law > > > > of free access to all beaches and ocean for the public as the beaches > > > > and ocean of California belong to all the people. This is now being > > > > challenged by Hollywood Mega Moguls who want their piece of the beach > > > > private. There is an active law suit now in Santa Barbara with several > > > > in Malibu waiting in the wings. > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 13:02:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Sep 1 12:02:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] high water access Message-ID: <71.24de5a90.2aa3bdeb@aol.com> In a message dated 9/1/02 7:02:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > In California, a property owner can own only to the MEAN high water (high > tide) mark. I believe that is in the ocean as well as tidal estuaries and > rivers. That is true but somebody usually owns the land you need to cross over to get to that high water mark. Along the north coast in Sonoma or Mendocino Counties there were/are hundreds of publicly owned coves at the base of cliffs -- but all the land on top, and the trail going down, are on private property. You can use the beach if you can get there, but you can't get there from anyplace you can get to on foot or by car. In the last 25 years the state has opened some public access, including parking lots, but those places are over used. I would rather have the Feds telling me I can't pick up a rock than have somebody who owns land down to the mean high water mark telling me I can't cross his land to get to the high water mark -- or to the rock the Feds will not let me have. Maybe I just want to look at the rock? The Feds let me do that but the guy with the $3,000,000 house on a cliff overlooking the Pacific has a bunch of no trespassing signs posted. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 19:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Sep 1 18:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Greenfield, IN Show, Sept. 6-8 Message-ID: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> Greetings! I would like to remind members of the list about the Greenfield, IN show this weekend. This is a GREAT show. Very laid back, down to earth. If you liked the Bloomington, IN show, you'll like this one, too! You will find many dealers, both large and small, from all parts of the country, with lots of minerals, fossil, and rough material to interest almost anyone in the hobby. This year I will be in the main building, space #7. My booth is hard to miss as I have UT orange table coverings! (Keith Hayes, eat your heart out! Keith really loves my cloths but would never admit it!) Stop by and say "HI!" Last year several list memembers did just that and it was interesting to finally be able to put a face with a name! Dates: Friday-Sunday, September 6-8, 2002. Hours: Friday - 9:00 am - 8:00 pm Saturday - 9:00 am - 7:00 pm Sunday - 10:00 am - 4:00 pm FMIC meeting Saturday, 12:00 pm MAPS meeting Saturday, 2:00 pm Location/Directions: Handcock Co. 4-H Club Fairgrounds, Greenfield, Indiana. Free admission ($1 donation per adult is requested) Hope to see you there! Stop by and say "HI!" and introduce yourself. Maybe you'll even see something I have that you can't live without. And then I'll have more to spend on my addiction with other dealers! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Sep 1 23:49:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TFAJr) Date: Sun Sep 1 22:49:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] high water access In-Reply-To: <71.24de5a90.2aa3bdeb@aol.com> Message-ID: Although I'm sure that its been researched and found completely legal, I wonder why the "cannot prevent access to ones property" principle does not apply. This would make a good research paper for some aspiring young law student. It is against the law for a person to deny access to ones property, at least in NC. That is, if you want to sell a piece of property, you have to provide access or access must be available for the buyer to get to that piece of property. Since the public owns the piece of property (the beach), applying the same principle, the landowners who are locking out the the owners of the beach (the public), should have to provide access to that property. Even if you could not sue for access now, it is reasonable that the county, or state could require that once the property is sold to a different owner, that that access would have to be provided as a condition of registering the deed and obtaining a title. Granted, many would never sell, but it is an immutable law that they would have to die, and once it goes into the estate, it would many times be sold. It would also be possible for the county,state, or municipality to condemn a portion of the property for an easement; but of course they would have to pay dearly for it. But it could be paid back by either a user tax or some other source of revenue. Not being a lawyer, I am probably wrong. We had a big case here in NC where a bunch of out of staters from higher latitudes came down and bought up our beach front property and then tried to enforce the same type of access control that you are talking about. The NC Supreme Court threw out their claim and therefore the beaches were left open. Most beaches here, require that before a development (condos, etc) are allowed to be built, that there has to be reasonable access across their property. Otherwise those homeowners that were one row back from the ocean, would not have access to the ocean. Californians, for all their liberality, seem to have some pretty feudal concepts sometimes. Tommy Armstrong N 35* 23' 52'' W 78* 49' 9'' > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lapadary@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 3:01 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] high water access > > > In a message dated 9/1/02 7:02:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > In California, a property owner can own only to the MEAN high > water (high > > tide) mark. I believe that is in the ocean as well as tidal > estuaries and > > rivers. > > That is true but somebody usually owns the land you need to cross > over to get > to that high water mark. Along the north coast in Sonoma or Mendocino > Counties there were/are hundreds of publicly owned coves at the base of > cliffs -- but all the land on top, and the trail going down, are > on private > property. You can use the beach if you can get there, but you > can't get there > from anyplace you can get to on foot or by car. > > In the last 25 years the state has opened some public access, including > parking lots, but those places are over used. > > I would rather have the Feds telling me I can't pick up a rock than have > somebody who owns land down to the mean high water mark telling > me I can't > cross his land to get to the high water mark -- or to the rock > the Feds will > not let me have. Maybe I just want to look at the rock? The Feds > let me do > that but the guy with the $3,000,000 house on a cliff overlooking > the Pacific > has a bunch of no trespassing signs posted. > > Grant > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 08:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Mon Sep 2 07:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] high water access References: Message-ID: <3D737AF7.E39BED95@earthlink.net> TOmmy Beach access is supposed to be included. Some property owners, read millionaires, have ignored it and seem to want to keep out the riff raff. I can understand it. If I had a million or 2 million dollar house and you and I wanted to cook hot dogs on the beach in front of the house, I wouldn't want the darned cheeeeeep smoke to interfere with my steak barbecue. RIGHT?? haha. Wa;t TFAJr wrote: > Although I'm sure that its been researched and found completely legal, I > wonder why the "cannot prevent access to ones property" principle does not > apply. This would make a good research paper for some aspiring young law > student. It is against the law for a person to deny access to ones property, > at least in NC. That is, if you want to sell a piece of property, you have > to provide access or access must be available for the buyer to get to that > piece of property. Since the public owns the piece of property (the beach), > applying the same principle, the landowners who are locking out the the > owners of the beach (the public), should have to provide access to that > property. Even if you could not sue for access now, it is reasonable that > the county, or state could require that once the property is sold to a > different owner, that that access would have to be provided as a condition > of registering the deed and obtaining a title. Granted, many would never > sell, but it is an immutable law that they would have to die, and once it > goes into the estate, it would many times be sold. It would also be possible > for the county,state, or municipality to condemn a portion of the property > for an easement; but of course they would have to pay dearly for it. But it > could be paid back by either a user tax or some other source of revenue. > > Not being a lawyer, I am probably wrong. > > We had a big case here in NC where a bunch of out of staters from higher > latitudes came down and bought up our beach front property and then tried to > enforce the same type of access control that you are talking about. The NC > Supreme Court threw out their claim and therefore the beaches were left > open. Most beaches here, require that before a development (condos, etc) are > allowed to be built, that there has to be reasonable access across their > property. Otherwise those homeowners that were one row back from the ocean, > would not have access to the ocean. > > Californians, for all their liberality, seem to have some pretty feudal > concepts sometimes. > > Tommy Armstrong > N 35* 23' 52'' W 78* 49' 9'' > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lapadary@aol.com > > Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 3:01 PM > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: [Rockhounds] high water access > > > > > > In a message dated 9/1/02 7:02:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > > > In California, a property owner can own only to the MEAN high > > water (high > > > tide) mark. I believe that is in the ocean as well as tidal > > estuaries and > > > rivers. > > > > That is true but somebody usually owns the land you need to cross > > over to get > > to that high water mark. Along the north coast in Sonoma or Mendocino > > Counties there were/are hundreds of publicly owned coves at the base of > > cliffs -- but all the land on top, and the trail going down, are > > on private > > property. You can use the beach if you can get there, but you > > can't get there > > from anyplace you can get to on foot or by car. > > > > In the last 25 years the state has opened some public access, including > > parking lots, but those places are over used. > > > > I would rather have the Feds telling me I can't pick up a rock than have > > somebody who owns land down to the mean high water mark telling > > me I can't > > cross his land to get to the high water mark -- or to the rock > > the Feds will > > not let me have. Maybe I just want to look at the rock? The Feds > > let me do > > that but the guy with the $3,000,000 house on a cliff overlooking > > the Pacific > > has a bunch of no trespassing signs posted. > > > > Grant > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 10:14:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Mon Sep 2 09:14:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: <17a.dc1b063.2aa1541b@aol.com> <3D70F702.AE246E59@earthlink.net> <3D71059E.AC7DD47@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3D738E01.3ACF626C@ptd.net> More of a rhetorical question than a comment.... Do we really need more guidebooks, and just how accurate do they need to be? Can we liken these books to buying that age old treasure map of "X" marks the spot to find the gold?? Can we, or should we really expect that for $10-$20 dollars someone is going to lead us right to where we should pick up our riches?? In many cases these guide books, are a re-distillation of materials already published by geological surveys, and a quick way for someone to make a few bucks. Wouldn't it be worth a serious minded rock hound's time to do some of their own research to find new and exciting places to "hound" in? Yes, these guides serve a purpose to those who are new to the hobby and also to keep abreast of closed sites, but in short do we need more??? Dennis Buffenmyer Lawrence Dee wrote: > Go ahead and offend them. Most of the guidebook writers do a terrible > job of creating accurate maps. The most infamous of them was probably > Bessie ___ who wrote several California guides. Only devine > intervention could get you to some of her localities! Even the > relatively new Mineral Collecting in Utah, written by a geologist, has > some bad directions. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 10:35:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Sep 2 09:35:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks In-Reply-To: <3D738E01.3ACF626C@ptd.net> Message-ID: Its seems to me that these books are the most valuble for folks who are coming from afar and who have limited ability to do local research before the trip. We do a long trip, generally out west, each year. Since we start in Florida it's difficult to pick up local knowledge for say Montana. I always get the applicable guidebooks but use them with the idea that if the location is in the guide book it's probably cleaned out. The maps are generally execrable as well but they get us in the general locality anyway. I'd say we find something in about a third of the guidebook entries at best. Bryan - More of a rhetorical question than a comment.... Do we really need more guidebooks, and just how accurate do they need to be? Can we liken these books to buying that age old treasure map of "X" marks the spot to find the gold?? Can we, or should we really expect that for $10-$20 dollars someone is going to lead us right to where we should pick up our riches?? In many cases these guide books, are a re-distillation of materials already published by geological surveys, and a quick way for someone to make a few bucks. Wouldn't it be worth a serious minded rock hound's time to do some of their own research to find new and exciting places to "hound" in? Yes, these guides serve a purpose to those who are new to the hobby and also to keep abreast of closed sites, but in short do we need more??? Dennis Buffenmyer Lawrence Dee wrote: > Go ahead and offend them. Most of the guidebook writers do a terrible > job of creating accurate maps. The most infamous of them was probably > Bessie ___ who wrote several California guides. Only devine > intervention could get you to some of her localities! Even the > relatively new Mineral Collecting in Utah, written by a geologist, has > some bad directions. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 10:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Mon Sep 2 09:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> Message-ID: <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> This will probably stir up the wrong kind of fires but here goes.... What is the finding of people on this list as to how shows are going?? I'm not necessarily talking about the big major shows, but the smaller little ones in the not so major points. Are the dealers doing ok?? The reason I'm asking is, my findings have been that we really are escalating this whole thing of what's a rock worth.... I realize some people put a lot of effort and money and time into the recovery of specimens, and as such should be able to charge what the market will carry.. but are they making ends meet? Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem, just the purchase or exchange of materials. While I'm not trying to propose any mandates or such, two things come to mind... 1. Should we as hobbyists emphasize the idea of swapping to rein in some of the prices that are being charged??? There just doesn't seem to be as many swaps as there where at one time were because no one could agree the value of the two proposed swapped pieces. 2. At sometimes up to about $25 for an 8 foot table, you have to sell a lot of specimens to just break even, or sell a few expensive specimens with a good mark up on to break even just on table expenses. So if we cant get to an agreement on swapping how can we in these times of economic turmoil get the buyers to support the dealers. I confess of the 2-3 shows I may do a year, I really don't get it. It seems you can never have the prettiest or newest rock, and as such everyone keeps selling the standard fare of pretty rocks.... Just trying to get some insight... In conclusion are we really getting around to this whole idea of greed and opportunity?? Dennis Buffenmyer buff1@ptd.net volgems@icx.net wrote: > Greetings! > > I would like to remind members of the list about the > Greenfield, IN show this weekend. This is a GREAT show. > Very laid back, down to earth. If you liked the > Bloomington, IN show, you'll like this one, too! You will --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 11:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee) Date: Mon Sep 2 10:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: Message-ID: <3D73A1AD.5A518311@mindspring.com> Good comments on guidebooks. It seems that most of them are written with the lapidary types in mind. As many of them are inclined to carry off everything they find and stash it in their backyards they can deplete collecting sites relatively rapidly. So there is a need for new guidebooks for the newer localities where they can hope to find something. There is certainly a need for new guidebooks for the xl collectors. The state and federal surveys do not do much to address this need so the interested field person needs to dig through volumes of mining and geology publications to get ideas about collecting sites. I could write a book on these types of locations, i.e. gleaned from the literature and mostly unproven. Would you be willing to buy it? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 11:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Mon Sep 2 10:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> Message-ID: <3D73A0CB.E15E08A2@cox.net> Dennis, Where I have been involved with, or attending shows, I seem to be concerned that those sellers are able to cover their costs related to the shows. There have been times when I feel the cost of the tables have gotten too high. This has been for a couple of reasons, the prices the dealers must charge to cover costs, and the attendance at the show. There has to be a fine balance here so that there is a feeling from the buyers that this is a great show with excellent prices to ensure the continued success. There must be a large number of buyers from outside of the rock and mineral community to justify the show. Sponsoring club(s) as well as dealers need to earn enough to compensate the time and effort it takes to put on and participate in the show. Swaps and reasonable prices for materials Rockhounds are after, usually are found at Tailgates or similar rather than at Shows. There you are less likely to find inflated prices. Within shows, if there is a Silent Auction, that is the best place for a well priced purchase. When the sponsoring club members are allowed to bid in the silent auction, the playing field is not level. Rockhounds are known to travel great distances to a show, as the locals there have access to material via field trips not easily available to distant club members, which may appear during the silent auction. It would be helpful price wise, if the dealer with retail prices on his material were to offer rockhounds with club identification, discounts. I am not certain that greed is the reason on show prices, costs must be factored in. I think much of the discussion has been the prices New Age specific dealers charge vs. what the typical rockhound/dealer knows to be the value. I have never been a fan of "what the market will bear," nor increasing the prices of on hand material based on replacement costs. that is where I see the greed factor. We need to better promote club shows to the general public for many reasons including encouraging new persons into the hobby for the future of it and the local club. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 11:49:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Mon Sep 2 10:49:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: Message-ID: <3D73A4E8.D5BA1A12@cox.net> Bryan, Direct communication with the local clubs in the area is extremely helpful. The easiest way to find these clubs is to go directly to the AFMS Web Site, from there link to the Federation for the locations in which you are interested. Next look at the clubs listed on that Federation site and link to them. In doing so you may find club meeting dates, field trip listings, and direct contacts to club members. Yes there are still clubs that do not have an Internet presence, but more are coming online all the time. As I am in California, I begin with CFMS and from there I am able to link to all other Federations. There is an incredible amount of information just in the links site of most web sites belonging to clubs and federations. For 2003 Three Federations, Northwest, Rocky Mountain, and CFMS are sponsoring a Memorial Day Field Trip to Texas Springs, Nevada. I know this will be a very special field trip, and it is far enough in advance that vacations can be planned around those dates, May 22 through May 25. Information can be found on the web sites of these three federations. Once you have found the local clubs in the areas you wish to dig, personal contact with them may even result in invitations to join a dig, or an individual wanting to meet you and dig with you. We have not yet explored the strength and value of communication. Reading posts over the years frequently leads one to those sharing similar interests, that can lead to invitations for visits in both directions for digs, etc. Perhaps one day we will see an area where individuals can post "will exchange a dig in xxx for a dig in yyy." Who knows? Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 12:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Sep 2 11:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks In-Reply-To: <3D73A4E8.D5BA1A12@cox.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902081409.02c83510@mail.aloha.net> Teresa, Thanks for the very useful tips. I have a 14-year-old niece in Washington State who was fascinated with our collection when she visited us, and her parents want to encourage her interest. I'll pass your ideas on; I think your approach could be a great way for youngsters to get started, Aloha, Kitty >Direct communication with the local clubs in the area is extremely >helpful. The easiest way to find these clubs is to go directly to the >AFMS Web Site, from there link to the Federation for the locations in >which you are interested. Teresa --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 12:32:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Sep 2 11:32:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks In-Reply-To: <3D73A1AD.5A518311@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Sure would, if the drought ever breaks out there. We've been wanting to go back to that area for quite awhile now. Bryan -----Original Message----- I could write a book on these types of locations, i.e. gleaned from the literature and mostly unproven. Would you be willing to buy it? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 14:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Sep 2 13:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] high water access Message-ID: <136.1351bbf1.2aa5213f@aol.com> In a message dated 9/1/02 10:50:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, hptdesigns@charter.net writes: > Californians, for all their liberality, seem to have some pretty feudal > concepts sometimes. That seems to be our stereotype. However, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, our contributions to modern politics, are not exactly liberals. Like all stereotypes, ours is an exaggeration, a caricature that developed because -- generally speaking -- we were one step ahead of the other states. We were first with smog, first with freeways connecting suburbs and urban areas (Urban sprawl), and because of that rapid growth we were the first to try and mitigate the environmental damage done by our poor planning. Unfortunately, something's were overlooked because of rapid growth. Easements to desirable sites was one of those. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 14:24:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Mon Sep 2 13:24:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020902081409.02c83510@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3D73C94C.FF5EF095@cox.net> Kitty, Thank you. We have not yet even scratched the surface of the direct communication this internet communication can develop. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 16:50:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Mon Sep 2 15:50:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> Message-ID: <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> Dennis and list I do only one show a year now. I am getting a bit tired of having to pay 6 to 800 dollars for a booth, and I usually have a 2 booth set up as inventory is large. Then I sell for fairly low prices. I do 3 to5 thousand dollars for a show. NOT Enough. I know, you think that is plenty for a show for 2 or 3 days. Here is the deal. Let us say that I pay 1300 for a booth, transport costs a little, time??, well that is also of little cost. I need a couple of people to work for me, even if I pay the help in rocks, that costs. Add from 75 to 100 dollars a night for lodging for a minimum of 4 nights, throw in the cost of the rocks, add some food and drink, and a couple of guys to help tear down and set up and we have almost no profit in the thing at all. I have some damned nice rocks. Museum quality, some of them. I sell at very good prices and have a wide selection and lots of depth. What happens? They go to the NAME dealers who charge 3 times for the same darned rock. Dennis, tell me where to go for an 8 dollar table. I will say this, that we are pricing ourselves out of the business. The "Tucson Syndrome", my name for it, has spread to all parts of the world. The local dealers in China, Mexico, Turkey, or where ever seem to know that we are getting XX dollars for a rock in Tucson. It does not matter that I have never been to the Tucson show, They know that prices are out of sight there. They want the same damned prices. It is hard for me to justify charging 25 dollars for a rock that I know darned well is only a 10 dollar rock. I just can't do it. I will tell you this. I had a sale at my home when I retired and moved to New Mexico. The people flocked to it and I had more stuff sold than I ever did at a show. It was a fantastic day. I had over 500 people there in 4 hours and they dropped a lot of money on the table. Much more than I had anticipated. I made more money than ever at any of the shows and probably more than I have at the 10 or so shows I have done. WHY? One, I was the only show in town. Well there were actually 3 others in town, but I was the only one there. I had my prices low and they were reasonable. I made a good enough profit and people had a good time and bought a couple of things they might not have bought otherwise, because the prices were low. I had no overhead. Shows are dying, I am afraid. The attendence is down all over the place. Maybe the big venues like Munich, Tucson, Denver, and ????? else are doing OK, but small regional shows seem to be faltering. At Pasadena last year a couple of dealers got into a verbal and almost physical confrontation over selling over the internet. ONE LARGE dealer was very adamant about the fact that the smaller but very big dealer was killing the shows by selling on the internet. Don't know if it is a factor or not. Walt Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > This will probably stir up the wrong kind of fires but here goes.... > > What is the finding of people on this list as to how shows are going?? > I'm not necessarily talking about the big major shows, but the smaller > little ones in the not so major points. Are the dealers doing ok?? The > reason I'm asking is, my findings have been that we really are > escalating this whole thing of what's a rock worth.... I realize some > people put a lot of effort and money and time into the recovery of > specimens, and as such should be able to charge what the market will > carry.. but are they making ends meet? > Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem, just the purchase or exchange > of materials. > While I'm not trying to propose any mandates or such, two things come to > mind... > 1. Should we as hobbyists emphasize the idea of swapping to rein in some > of the prices that are being charged??? There just doesn't seem to be as > many swaps as there where at one time were because no one could agree > the value of the two proposed swapped pieces. > 2. At sometimes up to about $25 for an 8 foot table, you have to sell a > lot of specimens to just break even, or sell a few expensive specimens > with a good mark up on to break even just on table expenses. So if we > cant get to an agreement on swapping how can we in these times of > economic turmoil get the buyers to support the dealers. > > I confess of the 2-3 shows I may do a year, I really don't get it. It > seems you can never have the prettiest or newest rock, and as such > everyone keeps selling the standard fare of pretty rocks.... Just trying > to get some insight... > > In conclusion are we really getting around to this whole idea of greed > and opportunity?? > Dennis Buffenmyer > buff1@ptd.net > volgems@icx.net wrote: > > > Greetings! > > > > I would like to remind members of the list about the > > Greenfield, IN show this weekend. This is a GREAT show. > > Very laid back, down to earth. If you liked the > > Bloomington, IN show, you'll like this one, too! You will > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 17:11:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Mon Sep 2 16:11:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: <3D73A4E8.D5BA1A12@cox.net> Message-ID: <3D73EFFA.9BF4C40D@earthlink.net> one thing on the clubs. Many of the contact email addrsses are dead. I send out a list and get almost 20 percent back as undeliverable. Walt TAM wrote: > Bryan, > Direct communication with the local clubs in the area is extremely > helpful. The easiest way to find these clubs is to go directly to the > AFMS Web Site, from there link to the Federation for the locations in > which you are interested. Next look at the clubs listed on that > Federation site and link to them. In doing so you may find club meeting > dates, field trip listings, and direct contacts to club members. > > Yes there are still clubs that do not have an Internet presence, but > more are coming online all the time. As I am in California, I begin with > CFMS and from there I am able to link to all other > Federations. There is an incredible amount of information just in the > links site of most web sites belonging to clubs and federations. > > For 2003 Three Federations, Northwest, Rocky Mountain, and CFMS are > sponsoring a Memorial Day Field Trip to Texas Springs, Nevada. I know > this will be a very special field trip, and it is far enough in advance > that vacations can be planned around those dates, May 22 through May 25. > Information can be found on the web sites of these three federations. > > Once you have found the local clubs in the areas you wish to dig, > personal contact with them may even result in invitations to join a dig, > or an individual wanting to meet you and dig with you. We have not yet > explored the strength and value of communication. Reading posts over the > years frequently leads one to those sharing similar interests, that can > lead to invitations for visits in both directions for digs, etc. Perhaps > one day we will see an area where individuals can post "will exchange a > dig in xxx for a dig in yyy." Who knows? > Teresa > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 17:13:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Mon Sep 2 16:13:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] Re: high water access In-Reply-To: <136.1351bbf1.2aa5213f@aol.com> Message-ID: We're starting to drift a bit off course here. Let's try and avoid discussions of RMN, unless there's a rock or mineral named after him. I've no problem with the discussion about beach collecting access, but let's try and keep it to that, and not politics. Thanks. afox Rockhounds Admin -- afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request "I had a signature once, but I forgot to feed it. It died..." From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 17:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. A. Barwood) Date: Mon Sep 2 16:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> Message-ID: <3D73F4E0.CC8D6DFC@bluemarble.net> Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > This will probably stir up the wrong kind of fires but here goes.... > > What is the finding of people on this list as to how shows are going?? > I'm not necessarily talking about the big major shows, but the smaller > little ones in the not so major points. Are the dealers doing ok?? The > reason I'm asking is, my findings have been that we really are > escalating this whole thing of what's a rock worth.... I realize some > people put a lot of effort and money and time into the recovery of > specimens, and as such should be able to charge what the market will > carry.. but are they making ends meet? > Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem, just the purchase or exchange > of materials. > While I'm not trying to propose any mandates or such, two things come to > mind... > 1. Should we as hobbyists emphasize the idea of swapping to rein in some > of the prices that are being charged??? There just doesn't seem to be as > many swaps as there where at one time were because no one could agree > the value of the two proposed swapped pieces. > 2. At sometimes up to about $25 for an 8 foot table, you have to sell a > lot of specimens to just break even, or sell a few expensive specimens > with a good mark up on to break even just on table expenses. So if we > cant get to an agreement on swapping how can we in these times of > economic turmoil get the buyers to support the dealers. > > I confess of the 2-3 shows I may do a year, I really don't get it. It > seems you can never have the prettiest or newest rock, and as such > everyone keeps selling the standard fare of pretty rocks.... Just trying > to get some insight... > > In conclusion are we really getting around to this whole idea of greed > and opportunity?? > Dennis Buffenmyer > buff1@ptd.net > Dennis, As a listee who has asked similar questions before, I've made a few observations which might help in discovering why prices are so high. First off, it's important to understand that minerals are fine art. Beauty (and value) is strictly in the eye of the beholder or buyer. Everyone else thusly considers either of these two people insane for paying or asking such a high price. Second, it's important to understand that when you offer a specimen for sale there are three types of people who are likely to purchase - a beginning rockhound, who doesn't know too much about what they're buying; a collector, who realizes that everything is priced too high; and someone looking for that special designer piece to go on the new mahogany coffee table, who thinks that everything is wonderful and plans to pay a fortune to get it all. Third, there are three types of people who are doing the selling - the dealer, who probably bought everything he/she is selling at a wholesale cost that was astronomical to begin with; other collectors, who are probably selling stuff they actually collected themselves but can't stand to see the dealer next to them getting twice as much price for half as much specimen; and the wholesaler, who only sells to dealers. Fourth, The personality of any seller breaks down into three types as well - Someone who wants to strike it rich, pricing everything targeted toward designers; someone who wants to sell a specimen to fund additional digs or make a living or extra income; someone who's trying to get rid of all the extra rock they've accumulated over the years. And lastly, the region where you are trying to sell turns a specimen to gold or gravel. You couldn't sell a specimen of calcite, dolomite or fluorite in the Midwest, no matter how spectacular, if you gave away a dvd player with each purchase! People in that region are just too burnt out on that type of material. On the same note, a nice specimen of anything from out west or over seas might fetch ten times what it's value would be in it's home region. Finding just the right mix of seller personality, specimen beauty, and short distance from it's home locality usually results in you finding a great purchase. Talking with the seller keys you in on exactly what type of person they are and what types of expertise they possess. I've worked several shows trying to sell off some miscellaneous material. Every once in a while someone would ask for a discount, but not once did a single person make a counter offer of any kind on any specimen I was selling. I've never had anyone stop to talk with me other than to simply say "Hi" in passing, other than people who already know me. I've never had anyone ask me anything about the specimen they are purchasing other than to repeat the locality name on the label ("So this came from Indian Mountain, right?"). What they might have asked is "Did you collect this specimen your self?", "Do you have other pieces of this material besides what you have displayed?", "That price is little high, how bout' taking $35 dollars instead?" , "I see that you're into micros, would you trade me this cabinet specimen for $25 dollars and specimen of gaidonnayite from 3M Quarry in Arkansas?", "Is this locality accessible to collectors like me?" , or here's a REAL good one, "Oh, you purchased this specimen wholesale? Well how much did YOU pay for it???" Hope this has been insightful, ~Adam J. Adam Barwood hbarwood@bluemarble.net http://www.mineralcollecting.org/ http://www.mineralcollecting.com/ http://www.terrasearchengine.com/ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 17:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Mon Sep 2 16:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] Re: high water access References: Message-ID: <3D73F808.A49052@earthlink.net> Aaron: You are right of course, politics have nothing to do with the list. However, the larger issue of land access is important. It, unfortunately involves the gubmint and politics. Perhaps we can steer a course through that minefield. Isn't there a rock named Nixonite? Darn. Walt Aaron Fox wrote: > We're starting to drift a bit off course here. Let's try and avoid > discussions of RMN, unless there's a rock or mineral named after him. > > I've no problem with the discussion about beach collecting access, but > let's try and keep it to that, and not politics. > > Thanks. > > afox > Rockhounds Admin > > -- > afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox > GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request > > "I had a signature once, but I forgot to feed it. It died..." > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 19:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ed Tindell) Date: Mon Sep 2 18:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <01C252C0.363A8B00.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> I noticed a lack of swap meets here in Texas so instead of a field trip in the heat of the summer I suggested a swap meet. Good way to get rid of all the extra specimens from the spring and fall field trips. So we held a swap meet here in Houston this past June. Called it the "First Annual Texas Rock & Fossil Swap". It was a tailgate affair held in the parking lot of one of the local clubs (HGMS). Despite heavy rains about two dozen swappers from around the state and some 75+ others showed up on short notice with minimal advertising. Everyone had a good time and, to quote one attendee the swap meet was: "Just like we used to do it!" The swap was absolutely free (not even a table fee) and you could do whatever you wanted to with your own material - swap, sell, display, lecture, et cetera. Everyone seemed to do quite well and want to do it again, which we will in November. It's now going to be twice a year. I made a point to make no distiction between collectors and dealers either - if you liked rocks for any reason you were welcome. The more the merrirer. Thanks, Ed Tindell 2002 CLGMS Field Trip/Group Order Coordinator a.k.a. "The Official Cat Herder" -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Buffenmyer [SMTP:buff1@ptd.net] Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:50 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... This will probably stir up the wrong kind of fires but here goes.... What is the finding of people on this list as to how shows are going?? I'm not necessarily talking about the big major shows, but the smaller little ones in the not so major points. Are the dealers doing ok?? The reason I'm asking is, my findings have been that we really are escalating this whole thing of what's a rock worth.... I realize some people put a lot of effort and money and time into the recovery of specimens, and as such should be able to charge what the market will carry.. but are they making ends meet? Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem, just the purchase or exchange of materials. While I'm not trying to propose any mandates or such, two things come to mind... 1. Should we as hobbyists emphasize the idea of swapping to rein in some of the prices that are being charged??? There just doesn't seem to be as many swaps as there where at one time were because no one could agree the value of the two proposed swapped pieces. 2. At sometimes up to about $25 for an 8 foot table, you have to sell a lot of specimens to just break even, or sell a few expensive specimens with a good mark up on to break even just on table expenses. So if we cant get to an agreement on swapping how can we in these times of economic turmoil get the buyers to support the dealers. I confess of the 2-3 shows I may do a year, I really don't get it. It seems you can never have the prettiest or newest rock, and as such everyone keeps selling the standard fare of pretty rocks.... Just trying to get some insight... In conclusion are we really getting around to this whole idea of greed and opportunity?? Dennis Buffenmyer buff1@ptd.net volgems@icx.net wrote: > Greetings! > > I would like to remind members of the list about the > Greenfield, IN show this weekend. This is a GREAT show. > Very laid back, down to earth. If you liked the > Bloomington, IN show, you'll like this one, too! You will --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 23:20:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Mon Sep 2 22:20:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> As a Dealer Chair for my club I must say that putting on a local club show isn't easy. You work your behind off for weeks before the show and for the week after it cleaning up and storing things away. Most dealers come to the show with little money and lots of rocks and leave with no money and no rocks. When the economy is good we have good attendance and lots of people spend money at the show. When the economy is not so good then there are lots of lookers but few buyers. I say we should all save our rocks for the day when the only place you can find them will be in the back yard. It's money in the bank! Last year I visited Quartzsite for 5 days and had a very hard time finding anything under $10.00 a pound. Most of it I would have left in the desert. My collection is appreciating as I type. Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Dennis and list > > I do only one show a year now. I am getting a bit tired of having to pay 6 > to 800 dollars for a booth, > > I will say this, that we are pricing ourselves out of the business. The > "Tucson Syndrome", my name for it, has spread to all parts of the world. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Sep 2 23:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Mon Sep 2 22:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <01C252C0.363A8B00.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> Message-ID: <3D744834.5C5A37AA@cox.net> Ed, You know, all it takes is a little initiative and the ball starts rolling. Bet than can happen all across the country. Hmmm, November in Houston, well that is always a possibility. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 00:30:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Mon Sep 2 23:30:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: <3D73A4E8.D5BA1A12@cox.net> <3D73EFFA.9BF4C40D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D74573F.9AF1F22@cox.net> Walt, Oh those Volunteers, they forgot to update the list again. Guess the Federations need to include a space on the annual club officer changes for e-mail and web site changes too. Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 02:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Scott Blair) Date: Tue Sep 3 01:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> Message-ID: Group please note: this post got a little long, so if you're not really that interested in this thread, you might want to go ahead and delete. Dennis: rather than "drawing fire", I thought this was a good question and provided the opportunity for many of the dealers on this list to share their experiences. I suspect that most will choose to remain silent however, because it's generally not acceptable to reveal your business practices to others - one could possibly compromise an image, or reveal a vulnerability to a potential competitor. I am just breaking into the show circuit, so I don't have much image to diminish. My partner and I opened the Ashland Rock Shop last May, but I've sold minerals since 1995. I'm a type two in Mr. Barwood's profile of seller personalities: "someone who wants to sell a specimen to fund additional digs or make a living or extra income". But I wouldn't mind targeting a few designers, and I do sometimes blow stuff out to get rid of accumulaton. So I think that I display seller personality shifts into other areas, depending on mood, and also upon buyer personalities:) I live in Ashland, OR, in the larger region of Southern Oregon, which is not exactly known for it's booming economic viability, but not the worst region in the state either.Each year is different. This year, we were plagued by lots of forest fire smoke which lingered in our valley for more than a month. Also, in the middle of it, the temps soared to over 100 for a stretch. This made Ashland a very miserable place to be, and it cut down on foot traffic in Ashland's usually well touristed downtown. It certainly hurt sales, and I'm sure the word got out - "Don't go to Southern Oregon, it's on fire." As shows go, I'm pretty small time. I don't think I've ever made more than a couple grand (gross, not net). I do some small shows just to schmooze and get the word out about the rock shop. If I don't make any money, I just think of the whole thing as an advertising effort. I do craft fairs and street fairs as well as gem and mineral shows. We did our local Jackson County Fair this year, and noted that sales at the adjacent snow cone booth ran rings around our paltry rock sales. I made more in two days at the Mt Shast 4th of July street fair, than I did in 6 days of 100 degree heat at the Jackson County Fair. So live and learn, but I'm telling you, if I never hear another shaved ice machine grinding away, that will be just fine. My shows in N. California were moving back towards a more normal volume of sales this year, after a big slump in 2001. For example, I made something like $1200 (gross) at the McCloud Street Fair (only a one day event) in 2000, but that dropped to around $500 in 2001, as Californians struggled with an energy crisis that sent their bills soaring. This June, the same show grossed about $750 for me, so I'm hoping it's going to come back up, barring any further unsettling events. I did the Prineville Rockhound Pow Wow in 2000, and managed to gross $1400, but if not for bulk purchases by two of the local shop owners, my sales would have been half that. So I didn't do that one again. The last two years I've done Snyder's Pow Wow, which is held east of San Francisco, and is maybe one of the larger rockhound gatherings in the off season for this area. From what I can gather, sales at Snyder's have been a little low, and the hay fever just about killed me. In the shop, we try to do like Walt does, and stock a wide variety of fossils, crystals, and minerals, keeping quality reasonably high, and price down as best we can. Our daily sales, even in this generally slumpy year, have mostly doubled over last year's sales. I assume that this is because we're gaining some inertia in getting known, and overcoming our location handicap (basement). Of course our initial successes are tenuous, and depend a lot on things out of our control, like Quartzsite not going completely downhill, (last couple of years have seemed a little iffy down there), and on our major wholesalers and suppliers not completely giving their souls over to the "Tucson syndrome". Other, more local events also play into the equation, such as what kind of a season Ashland's Shakespeare Festival (region's biggest tourist draw) is having, and whether Harry and David's (fruit sellers located in S. Oregon) can get their sales up over last holiday season providing their hordes of temporary labor with extra cash for Christmas. So we're certainly aware of our vulnerability, and that we are always subject to the "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune". One of the big dealers who comes to our local club show says he thinks the mineral dealing business is on a long slow decline. I've sometimes pondered that statement, and wondered how much his views derive from his particular perspective. He's getting towards that upper end of being physically able to haul rocks around. He used to sell at Tucson, but he claims it's not worth it anymore. Dealer costs have gotten too high. So he's somewhat disenchanted with it at this point. By contrast, I still feel as though I'm on the upswing. I still do it out of love and passion, at least to a significant degree. No, really - I'm trying to speak truly, and not just beat my chest here. At age 43, I'm not burnt out yet, but catch me in ten years (grins with teeth gritting) >From my own observations, there's at least one subgroup of the population among whom the crystal dealing trade is hotter than ever - it's the hippie kids. These people are less given to worrying about conventional mainstream collapses like the stock market, and Enron. They tend to call that whole scene "Babylon" and predict it's inevitable demise. I suspect that some portion of the money within this population segment comes from drug running. None-the-less, this group clamors for aquas, tourmalines, heliodor and the like, and they are willing to spend some money. They want high quality "fatty head pieces" (read: museum type specimens).There is at least one semi local, counter cultural type dealer around here who has made some mineral sales that would raise any mainstream, big name dealer's eyebrows. I've sold for 4 years at the Wellsprings fair, here in Ashland. Wellsprings is a combination campground, mineral hot springs, and sauna. A lot of counter culture characters frequent the place, and sales at this venue have stayed constant over the last four years. So I think that the counter cultural events like reggae festivals, music festivals, solstice fairs, and country fairs might be less affected by the mainstream woes. And there is a potentially good market for minerals within these venues. Also fueling this whole scene are the trading venues like Burning Man (temporary art village set up in Black Rock Desert, Nevada - trade only, no money) and the Rainbow Gatherings. (annual hippie migration) So while old shows might die, so might new venues arise. I really think that public interest in gems and minerals is as strong as ever. From kids to grandma - give them an affordable price and a reasonable quality, and you have a sale. To each their own, but I'd rather have trickles of cash coming in everyday, than sit around and wait for the big sale. Warm Regards- Scott Blair From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 05:36:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 04:36:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: I'm a former HGMS member now living on the East coast. What Ed fails to mention is that HGMS is one of the few clubs that OWNS it's own clubhouse. So the club pays no extra rent to run a show like this. He didn't mention if tables had to be rented or did they made do with what was in the clubhouse and what folks brought. I like the idea of a swap, but very few clubs have access to a building and tables for nearly free so they must charge. Having been a club president several times for different clubs as I move from place to place I know that most clubs make a very small profit, if any, on shows considering the amount of effort that is put in. It usually measures in the thousands of people hours. Dealers at local club shows, for the most part, do not make a lot of money, considering the amount of work they put in. Still this is a labor of love for most of us. In Chicago the Chicagoland show (Wheaton, IL) usually combines a swap show in the back and a commercial show in another building. It is a good combination from the collector's point of view and probably meets the costs by sheer size. I'm not sure how well the dealers do, as I never have done that show as a dealer. More of ineterst to me, I wonder how many clubs in addition to HGMS own their own building, and how they pulled it off. My own club ends up finding a new place to meet and run classes etc. every 10 years or so and so I wondered what it takes to get our own place. We've looked at it a few times but property costs here in the East are so high, it's tough to see our way to our own place. gene hartstein In a message dated 9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ed-tindell@sprynet.com writes: > Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Date:9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From:ed-tindell@sprynet.com > Reply-to:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > To:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > I noticed a lack of swap meets here in Texas so instead of a field trip > in the heat of the summer I suggested a swap meet. Good way to get > rid of all the extra specimens from the spring and fall field trips. > So we held a swap meet here in Houston this past June. Called > it the "First Annual Texas Rock & Fossil Swap". It was a tailgate affair > held in the parking lot of one of the local clubs (HGMS). Despite heavy > rains about two dozen swappers from around the state and some 75+ > others showed up on short notice with minimal advertising. Everyone > had a good time and, to quote one attendee the swap meet was: > "Just like we used to do it!" > The swap was absolutely free (not even a table fee) and you > could do whatever you wanted to with your own material - swap, sell, > display, lecture, et cetera. Everyone seemed to do quite well and > want to do it again, which we will in November. It's now going to be > twice a year. I made a point to make no distiction between collectors > and dealers either - if you liked rocks for any reason you were welcome. > The more the merrirer. > > Thanks, --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 07:31:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Flannigan) Date: Tue Sep 3 06:31:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] DRG Topos References: <20020902174900.13464.6866.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <3D74B988.5160FB1A@earthlink.net> Sorry for the off topic post, but I am looking for people who have complete 7.5' DRG topos of western states that would like to trade with me. I have MO and TX, but that is all. I'd really like to get CA, NV, UT, ID, etc. Mike Flannigan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 07:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 06:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <3D74BD6C.518E5C24@earthlink.net> I agree that putting on a show is work. REAL work. No doubt about it. BTW. Laughlin this year may eclipse Quartzite. Another place which has gone crazy in the last few years. Walt rocks4u wrote: > As a Dealer Chair for my club I must say that putting on a local club show > isn't easy. You work your behind off for weeks before the show and for the > week after it cleaning up and storing things away. Most dealers come to the > show with little money and lots of rocks and leave with no money and no > rocks. When the economy is good we have good attendance and lots of people > spend money at the show. When the economy is not so good then there are lots > of lookers but few buyers. I say we should all save our rocks for the day > when the only place you can find them will be in the back yard. It's money > in the bank! Last year I visited Quartzsite for 5 days and had a very hard > time finding anything under $10.00 a pound. Most of it I would have left in > the desert. My collection is appreciating as I type. Cheers! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > > Dennis and list > > > > I do only one show a year now. I am getting a bit tired of having to pay > 6 > > to 800 dollars for a booth, > > > > I will say this, that we are pricing ourselves out of the business. The > > "Tucson Syndrome", my name for it, has spread to all parts of the world. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 07:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 06:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: <3D73A4E8.D5BA1A12@cox.net> <3D73EFFA.9BF4C40D@earthlink.net> <3D74573F.9AF1F22@cox.net> Message-ID: <3D74BE71.7A10B709@earthlink.net> Yeah, the lists change often, I am sure and no one is in charge of up dates. Walt TAM wrote: > Walt, > Oh those Volunteers, they forgot to update the list again. Guess the > Federations need to include a space on the annual club officer changes > for e-mail and web site changes too. > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 11:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 10:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> Hello Walt and all Making ends meet is indeed very difficult, when factoring in overhead expenses... I agree with Walt that shows are dying. Well, perhaps more accurately, the days of vendors making decent, or good profits at small shows is dying. Some of the reasons why can easily be seen when you pick up some of the old Lapidary magazines from the 60's or 70's and even the 80's....Take a long look at the classified adds and the various pictorial articles as well.... What do you see?. GREAT MATERIALS GOOD PRICES What did I see when I attended Walt Bowser's big rock and mineral sale at his home, where he did make a good profit ?..... Yep.... You guessed it, GREAT MATERIALS GOOD PRICES.. When someone has great materials and good prices, both the seller and the buyer go home with smiles... Unless the people who charge for the show spaces, tables and booths, etc, the show promoters, are charging too much... Then the seller could have reduced and or no profits. However, even in that promoter overcharge scenario, I still think great materials and good prices will always be a winner for both the seller and the buyer, as long as the great materials and good prices keep flowing throughout the duration of sale and in large volume.. Unfortunately, much of the great material, at the good prices, is gone early in the show and what is left may not be desirable for the price. It is not easy to keep large inventories of great materials with good prices.... But it's not impossible either As far as the Internet goes, I stick to my original opinion that Great Materials and Good Prices will equal profits for the seller. Although auctions sometimes do take the price factor, into different realms of consciousness.. Personally, I have never been 100% satisfied with any Internet purchases. I usually just grin and bear it - the purchase - and then wait in APPRECIATIVE anticipation for sales like Walt Bowser had at his home and or, for various tailgate type sales..... Take care RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 11:49:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 10:49:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks In-Reply-To: <3D738E01.3ACF626C@ptd.net> References: <17a.dc1b063.2aa1541b@aol.com> <3D70F702.AE246E59@earthlink.net> <3D71059E.AC7DD47@mindspring.com> Message-ID: As an author of several guidebooks, with accurate maps based on topographic or other maps with mileages actually measured, I must say that there are good guidebooks out there, and yes we do need them. It is quite obvious from the sales of guidebooks that there is a market for them. If you don't need guidebooks, then don't use them. Others obvious do find a use for them and it is not just the beginners. Geological literature, especially state survey and USGS reports on mining districts may be good sources of information as to where many minerals have been produced, and I use them constantly in my search for mines to prospect for collectible minerals, but these reports rarely report the existence of agate localities, geode localities and most lapidary materials. They also don't report most quartz crystal, garnet, epidote, etc. localities. There also is a big difference between minerals that occur (or occurred) at a mine when it was in production than what can be collected at a mine. I spend a lot of time reading geolgic literature, but one will find a lot more collectible localities with guidebooks. Can't help but agree though, there are a lot of maps and directions in guidebooks that don't get one to the expected site. Lanny >More of a rhetorical question than a comment.... >Do we really need more guidebooks, and just how accurate do they need to >be? >Can we liken these books to buying that age old treasure map of "X" marks >the spot to find the gold?? Can we, or should we really expect that for >$10-$20 dollars someone is going to lead us right to where we should pick >up our riches?? In many cases these guide books, are a re-distillation of >materials already published by geological surveys, and a quick way for >someone to make a few bucks. Wouldn't it be worth a serious minded rock >hound's time to do some of their own research to find new and exciting >places to "hound" in? Yes, these guides serve a purpose to those who are >new to the hobby and also to keep abreast of closed sites, but in short do >we need more??? >Dennis Buffenmyer > >Lawrence Dee wrote: > >> Go ahead and offend them. Most of the guidebook writers do a terrible >> job of creating accurate maps. The most infamous of them was probably >> Bessie ___ who wrote several California guides. Only devine >> intervention could get you to some of her localities! Even the >> relatively new Mineral Collecting in Utah, written by a geologist, has >> some bad directions. >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/mixed >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/x-vcard >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 12:31:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Sep 3 11:31:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin In-Reply-To: <3D74BD6C.518E5C24@earthlink.net> References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903083537.00aa16d0@mail.aloha.net> Sorry to be dim, but where is Laughlin? Kitty >BTW. Laughlin this year may eclipse Quartzite. Another place which has gone >crazy in the last few years. > >Walt --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 13:05:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 12:05:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> <5.1.0.14.0.20020903083537.00aa16d0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3D7507B0.DAF40917@earthlink.net> Laughlin Nevada, is near to Needles, CA. There have been many troubles in the area of Quartzite. Permits, taxes, space, lack of space, lack of facilities. Laughlin is just up river from Needles, across the river from Bull head city, AZ where the point of Nev comes down between CA and AZ. Well developed casino business and lots of hotel rooms, they offer a dealer package of 1500 for 9 days including your room and indoor spaces to sell. No permits, pay taxes daily, if any. etc. Lots nicer than Quartzite. Walt Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > Sorry to be dim, but where is Laughlin? > > Kitty > > >BTW. Laughlin this year may eclipse Quartzite. Another place which has gone > >crazy in the last few years. > > > >Walt > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 13:15:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 12:15:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin Message-ID: <160.133f67c2.2aa66402@aol.com> In a message dated 9/3/02 11:30:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kahako@aloha.net writes: > > Sorry to be dim, but where is Laughlin? > Hi Kitty, Laughlin is in the southern end of Nevada, on the west side of the Colorado River. Across the Colorado River is Bullhead City, AZ and the California State line is about 5 miles south of Laughlin. A person who started one of the Quartzsite shows, Clouds, moved up there after he lost his site in Quartzsite due to highway construction. He used the Avi Resort south of Laughlin. I was at both sites and I think Clouds at Avi Resort might become a large gem and rock sale. Quartzsite is a gigantic yard sale, and is not user friendly. If you are loking for rocks Laughlin is a better place. However, most people will continue going to Quartzsite. They go there for reasons that have nothing to do with rocks. Grant I'm not sue --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 15:30:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Tue Sep 3 14:30:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <002801c25392$b8e45ea0$7c8a4d0c@jade> The prices for shows are not always the fault of the sponsoring club. One club I belong to down here in Florida got hit with almost double fees for renting a building for a show and then they were told that they would have to pay state employees for security ($30+ per hour) as well as pay the state for clean up people at the rate they designated. We could not use our own people for anything they thought they could charge us for. The show is not happening this year partly becasue of a conflicting schedule by some other shows, but the prices here are greed from people who just see lots of jewelry and figure everyone has deep pockets. One show in the Tampa area wants $350+ for table rental... lots of us who just dig and swap don't have that kind of money to throw. The Maine show I was in in May was great... wanted $60 for two tables (including back-up table)and I had worked with the publicity person to get as much exposure as possible... everyone I talked to did well for the scale of costs. If you only make $300 to $600 for the entire show, you can't pay travel, lodging and meals after some of these table costs (not counting the cost of packaging, set-up, goods, etc.) I really like the swap idea from Texas... sounds like a back to basics idea that will become necessary in the near future, Jane. ----- Original Message ----- From: "rocks4u" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > As a Dealer Chair for my club I must say that putting on a local club show > isn't easy. You work your behind off for weeks before the show and for the > week after it cleaning up and storing things away. Most dealers come to the > show with little money and lots of rocks and leave with no money and no > rocks. When the economy is good we have good attendance and lots of people > spend money at the show. When the economy is not so good then there are lots > of lookers but few buyers. I say we should all save our rocks for the day > when the only place you can find them will be in the back yard. It's money > in the bank! Last year I visited Quartzsite for 5 days and had a very hard > time finding anything under $10.00 a pound. Most of it I would have left in > the desert. My collection is appreciating as I type. Cheers! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > > > Dennis and list > > > > I do only one show a year now. I am getting a bit tired of having to pay > 6 > > to 800 dollars for a booth, > > > > I will say this, that we are pricing ourselves out of the business. The > > "Tucson Syndrome", my name for it, has spread to all parts of the world. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 15:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Tue Sep 3 14:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> <5.1.0.14.0.20020903083537.00aa16d0@mail.aloha.net> <3D7507B0.DAF40917@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00cf01c25396$7392de40$7c8a4d0c@jade> Walt, one of the reasons I have decided I really like Quartzsite PowWow is the field trips nearly every day. Is that something that can be done at Laughlin also? Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Laughlin > Laughlin Nevada, is near to Needles, CA. There have been many troubles in the > area of Quartzite. Permits, taxes, space, lack of space, lack of facilities. > Laughlin is just up river from Needles, across the river from Bull head city, AZ > where the point of Nev comes down between CA and AZ. Well developed casino > business and lots of hotel rooms, they offer a dealer package of 1500 for 9 days > including your room and indoor spaces to sell. No permits, pay taxes daily, if > any. etc. Lots nicer than Quartzite. > > Walt > > Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > > Sorry to be dim, but where is Laughlin? > > > > Kitty > > > > >BTW. Laughlin this year may eclipse Quartzite. Another place which has gone > > >crazy in the last few years. > > > > > >Walt > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/mixed > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 16:03:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 15:03:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <1a8.7c65525.2aa68b57@aol.com> Put me on you list for Houston, (send me a reminder). But what if all of my material is small pieces, mostly end cuts or slices that are polished and meant to be for a collector type person (especially young or beginner) who can't polish their own material. I have flats of polished pieces, some as low as $ .50 each piece. I can't sell much at rock shows and would like get some contact with dealers. Larry --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 16:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 15:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin Message-ID: <51.2369d1ae.2aa68f65@aol.com> What about outdoor spaces and set up. Anything available? Larry --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 16:46:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Sep 3 15:46:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin Message-ID: <48.10f85d6d.2aa69579@aol.com> In a message dated 9/3/02 3:20:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com writes: > What about outdoor spaces and set up. Anything available? > Everything at Avi Resort was outside. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 18:19:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 17:19:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> <5.1.0.14.0.20020903083537.00aa16d0@mail.aloha.net> <3D7507B0.DAF40917@earthlink.net> <00cf01c25396$7392de40$7c8a4d0c@jade> Message-ID: <3D755171.3F851C8@earthlink.net> I have talked to people who went last year and they said there were side trips., I don't know if those are sponsored or spontanaeous. Walt Jane Davis wrote: > Walt, > one of the reasons I have decided I really like Quartzsite PowWow is the > field trips nearly every day. Is that something that can be done at Laughlin > also? > Jane > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:04 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Laughlin > > > Laughlin Nevada, is near to Needles, CA. There have been many troubles in > the > > area of Quartzite. Permits, taxes, space, lack of space, lack of > facilities. > > Laughlin is just up river from Needles, across the river from Bull head > city, AZ > > where the point of Nev comes down between CA and AZ. Well developed > casino > > business and lots of hotel rooms, they offer a dealer package of 1500 for > 9 days > > including your room and indoor spaces to sell. No permits, pay taxes > daily, if > > any. etc. Lots nicer than Quartzite. > > > > Walt > > > > Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > > > > Sorry to be dim, but where is Laughlin? > > > > > > Kitty > > > > > > >BTW. Laughlin this year may eclipse Quartzite. Another place which has > gone > > > >crazy in the last few years. > > > > > > > >Walt > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/mixed > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > --- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 18:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 17:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin References: <51.2369d1ae.2aa68f65@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D7551D8.B9A3289A@earthlink.net> You can call the cloud's folks at laughlin. There are spaces. Ijust don't know about it. Walt RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com wrote: > What about outdoor spaces and set up. Anything available? > > Larry > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 18:22:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 17:22:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin References: <48.10f85d6d.2aa69579@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D7551FB.B0DC7918@earthlink.net> Now they have both in and out. I don't know the prices. Walt Lapadary@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/3/02 3:20:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com writes: > > > What about outdoor spaces and set up. Anything available? > > > Everything at Avi Resort was outside. > > Grant > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 18:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Sep 3 17:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] show costs... In-Reply-To: <002801c25392$b8e45ea0$7c8a4d0c@jade> References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020903144517.02c78c00@mail.aloha.net> Is the situation different in Canada? Our only experience with shows in Canada has been at Bancroft, Ontario, and we've been there 3 summers in a row, 1999-2001. It surely seems to be a model of how a community can nurture and positively exploit its geological resources. The Chamber of Commerce, Visitors Information Centre, Mineral Museum, Mineral Gift Shop and Geology Field Trip Headquarters are all in the same small building, mostly in one room. In fact the Chamber of Commerce publishes and sells (also by mail) the Bancroft Mineral Collection Guidebook, an excellent resource---no color pictures, no advertising, no nonsense, just good maps and descriptions, and only $13. The Chamber gives free collection advice and issues collection permits for those sites that require them ($5/person or $12/family, though many sites are free). Throughout July and August they provide geologist-led field trips 3 times a week $7/person, or $15/family. You can buy or rent rock hammers, safety goggles, etc. there too. The last week of July there is a 3-day rock and gem show in Wilberforce, a few miles west of Bancroft, and also a 1-day rock show in Bancroft. These are sort of "warm-ups" for the Gemboree, the first week of August. This is 4 full days (10am - 7pm) of shows with swapping areas, mineral identification services by a geology museum expert, geology lectures, daily geologist-led field trips, silent auctions, fluorescent dark booth, fossils, lapidary and craft sections, gold panning (especially for kids), and general festivities. The entire community including other nearby towns gets into the act, and of course all businesses make money from the 15,000 or so people who come to the Gemboree. Dealers and customers come from all over the world, but I've not seen the Bancroft Gemboree mentioned much in US publications and websites. Bill and I did not ask dealers about the cost of participating in the show, but our impression was that with the enthusiastic support of the Chamber of Commerce, the dealers were happy. Certainly customers like us were very pleased with the reasonable prices and favorable exchange rate! Aloha, Kitty >The prices for shows are not always the fault of the sponsoring club. One >club I belong to down here in Florida got hit with almost double fees for >renting a building for a show and then they were told that they would have >to pay state employees for security ($30+ per hour) as well as pay the state >for clean up people at the rate they designated. We could not use our own >people for anything they thought they could charge us for. >I do only one show a year now. I am getting a bit tired of having to >pay 6 to 800 dollars for a booth, >I will say this, that we are pricing ourselves out of the business. >The"Tucson Syndrome", my name for it, has spread to all parts of the world. > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 21:08:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ed Tindell) Date: Tue Sep 3 20:08:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <01C25396.79642040.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> Gene - The swap meet was a tailgate affair. No tables were provided . . .nor anything else . . . except date, time and location. Some burgers and hot dogs were grilled for a contribution. If you didn't bring it with you it wasn't there! The swap was held outdoors in the parking lot. HGMS sold rocks inside the club house but I don't think anyone else did. Most people just opened their trunks or set up a tarp. Thanks, Ed -----Original Message----- From: FOSSILNUT@aol.com [SMTP:FOSSILNUT@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 6:28 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... I'm a former HGMS member now living on the East coast. What Ed fails to mention is that HGMS is one of the few clubs that OWNS it's own clubhouse. So the club pays no extra rent to run a show like this. He didn't mention if tables had to be rented or did they made do with what was in the clubhouse and what folks brought. I like the idea of a swap, but very few clubs have access to a building and tables for nearly free so they must charge. Having been a club president several times for different clubs as I move from place to place I know that most clubs make a very small profit, if any, on shows considering the amount of effort that is put in. It usually measures in the thousands of people hours. Dealers at local club shows, for the most part, do not make a lot of money, considering the amount of work they put in. Still this is a labor of love for most of us. In Chicago the Chicagoland show (Wheaton, IL) usually combines a swap show in the back and a commercial show in another building. It is a good combination from the collector's point of view and probably meets the costs by sheer size. I'm not sure how well the dealers do, as I never have done that show as a dealer. More of ineterst to me, I wonder how many clubs in addition to HGMS own their own building, and how they pulled it off. My own club ends up finding a new place to meet and run classes etc. every 10 years or so and so I wondered what it takes to get our own place. We've looked at it a few times but property costs here in the East are so high, it's tough to see our way to our own place. gene hartstein In a message dated 9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ed-tindell@sprynet.com writes: > Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Date:9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From:ed-tindell@sprynet.com > Reply-to:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > To:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > I noticed a lack of swap meets here in Texas so instead of a field trip > in the heat of the summer I suggested a swap meet. Good way to get > rid of all the extra specimens from the spring and fall field trips. > So we held a swap meet here in Houston this past June. Called > it the "First Annual Texas Rock & Fossil Swap". It was a tailgate affair > held in the parking lot of one of the local clubs (HGMS). Despite heavy > rains about two dozen swappers from around the state and some 75+ > others showed up on short notice with minimal advertising. Everyone > had a good time and, to quote one attendee the swap meet was: > "Just like we used to do it!" > The swap was absolutely free (not even a table fee) and you > could do whatever you wanted to with your own material - swap, sell, > display, lecture, et cetera. Everyone seemed to do quite well and > want to do it again, which we will in November. It's now going to be > twice a year. I made a point to make no distiction between collectors > and dealers either - if you liked rocks for any reason you were welcome. > The more the merrirer. > > Thanks, --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 21:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Tue Sep 3 20:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin/Clouds Jamboree References: <51.2369d1ae.2aa68f65@aol.com> <3D7551D8.B9A3289A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D757D8E.51D6508C@earthlink.net> Dick Cloud and his brother had 2 shows set up in Laughlin last year. One of them was on the casino strip in Laughlin and the other, as I understand it, was on the Avi Reservation. The show on the strip was $1,500 and included hotel if I remember correctly. The other show had entirely different setup/vendor fees at a significantly lower rate, I believe. Their number (I think it is at the business headquarters in QZ) is 1-866-558-7719. The link below is to the Cloud's Jamboree web page they now have set up. http://www.cloudsjamboree.com/index.html Teresa Otis "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" wrote: > > You can call the cloud's folks at laughlin. There are spaces. Ijust > don't know about it. > > Walt > > RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com wrote: > > > What about outdoor spaces and set up. Anything available? > > > > Larry > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 21:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ed Tindell) Date: Tue Sep 3 20:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <01C25399.A741BC40.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> Larry - I'll add you to the list. People had a little bit of everything from used equipment like saws and display cases to micro to cabinet size specimens to slabs, geodes, fossils, agates, even some mining artifacts. Bring what you got. Thanks, Ed -----Original Message----- From: RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com [SMTP:RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 5:02 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Put me on you list for Houston, (send me a reminder). But what if all of my material is small pieces, mostly end cuts or slices that are polished and meant to be for a collector type person (especially young or beginner) who can't polish their own material. I have flats of polished pieces, some as low as $ .50 each piece. I can't sell much at rock shows and would like get some contact with dealers. Larry --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 21:32:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ed Tindell) Date: Tue Sep 3 20:32:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Laughlin Message-ID: <01C25399.DD9AB300.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> Larry - It's a tailgate affair. Bring what you need. We should be near bathrooms and water fountains (basic stuff) but bring your shade, tables and chairs. Thanks, Ed -----Original Message----- From: RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com [SMTP:RoCkHeAd2u@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 5:19 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Laughlin What about outdoor spaces and set up. Anything available? Larry --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 23:03:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Tue Sep 3 22:03:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <002f01c25309$c650f280$fd333841@s4b5j4> <002801c25392$b8e45ea0$7c8a4d0c@jade> Message-ID: <3D759467.FF4A0994@cox.net> Jane, We had some club shows that were well attended and brought a good return for the host club. Someone noticed all this and started the commercial shows in direct competition with club shows. They blanketed the area with expensive publicity and began to draw crowds. In some areas they contracted with the very same venue clubs had been using and included in the contract a "no competition" clause effectively closing clubs out of that site. Club shows have never regained their days of glory. Alternate facilities were never of the same caliber. The buyers used to going to a Fairground for the jewelry show were not aware of the difference. Of course they were paying more for their purchases, but they often saw the same dealers they had bought from before, so not an obvious change. Yes we may have to get back to basics and see where it goes from there. Realize I am speaking for Southern California, aside from Quartzsite and Tucson, that is about all I am familiar with. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 23:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lunarcowgirl) Date: Tue Sep 3 22:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A question for lapidary club members... In-Reply-To: <3D759467.FF4A0994@cox.net> Message-ID: <20020904051557.34861.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I thought I would ask this question since were talking about shows... for its slightly related. I have read that some members used to/or do belong to lapidary clubs. What does your club do to raise money past the yearly show? My club was displaced from our old shop, and due to that were going through our reserves really fast. I am just curious what other clubs do to stay afloat since were non-profit. Thank you for any suggestions or ideas. Jane __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Sep 3 23:33:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Tue Sep 3 22:33:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A question for lapidary club members... References: <20020904051557.34861.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008e01c253d4$ec30f9c0$3bae3a41@s4b5j4> Our club invests part of the reserves into a high interest bearing account. We also hold a raffle at the end of the monthly meetings which earns a little. We also accept any donations anyone is thoughtful enough to make, especially from estates with lots of rocks. Given all that, we still need and rely mostly on the annual show and tailgate for our annual income and scholarships.Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lunarcowgirl" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 10:15 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] A question for lapidary club members... > Hi, > > I thought I would ask this question since were talking > about shows... for its slightly related. > > I have read that some members used to/or do belong to > lapidary clubs. What does your club do > to raise money past the yearly show? > > My club was displaced from our old shop, and due to > that were going through our reserves really fast. > I am just curious what other clubs do to stay afloat > since were non-profit. > > Thank you for any suggestions or ideas. > Jane > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 00:39:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Tue Sep 3 23:39:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A question for lapidary club members... References: <20020904051557.34861.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D75AA5A.EFCC4AA@earthlink.net> Jane: A couple of clubs I know have used my services, mineral search safaris, to sponsor club trips. This makes a bit of money for each person who goes. Others have rummage sales and other sales. The club show, seem to me, has almost dropped off the map. There are still several that I know of, but none seems to be of the calibre they were 10 or 20 years ago. Heck, then neither am I, for that matter. THe whole character of the hobby seems to have changed. People no longer have time to go digging and would rather buy a rock than spend the time to drive 500 miles, dig in the dirt all day and drive home with a lot of rock which eventually graces the flower bed. MY 2 cents worth. Walt Lunarcowgirl wrote: > Hi, > > I thought I would ask this question since were talking > about shows... for its slightly related. > > I have read that some members used to/or do belong to > lapidary clubs. What does your club do > to raise money past the yearly show? > > My club was displaced from our old shop, and due to > that were going through our reserves really fast. > I am just curious what other clubs do to stay afloat > since were non-profit. > > Thank you for any suggestions or ideas. > Jane > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 04:27:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (The Mineral Vug) Date: Wed Sep 4 03:27:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD 50% off Sale Message-ID: Hello All: The Mineral Vug invites all to visit our 50 % off sale on specimens in all galleries except for those found on the New Arrival and Bargain Basement pages. So stop on by and check it out at www.themineralvug.com . Regards, Brett Shaffer The Mineral Vug From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 04:35:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Wed Sep 4 03:35:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks References: <17a.dc1b063.2aa1541b@aol.com> <3D70F702.AE246E59@earthlink.net> <3D71059E.AC7DD47@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3D75E1D0.C6DAD9BA@ptd.net> Lanny, First of all I want to assure you there was no insult intended in my question! As an owner of one of your guide books, I would describe your guide to be of the definitive nature. What I'm referring to are the guide books that are at most just a cut and paste of material that has already been published. All I was trying to ask was do we need more of the same? I truly believe that if an individual where to do a little additional research on the publications that already exist they may be able to further enhance their appreciation for their finds. Geological reports may not cover the spectrum, and as you also point out usually deal only with economic recovery of ore material, but with these materials ( such as your guide books and publications such as your newsletter) and maps it might be possible to draw a correlation between related occurrences and geological units to find your own area of prospect. Again, no insult intended to you or others.... Dennis Buffenmyer lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > As an author of several guidebooks, with accurate maps based on topographic > or other maps with mileages actually measured, I must say that there are > good guidebooks out there, and yes we do need them. It is quite obvious > from the sales of guidebooks that there is a market for them. If you don't > need guidebooks, then don't use them. Others obvious do find a use for them > and it is not just the beginners. > > Geological literature, especially state survey and USGS reports on mining > districts may be good sources of information as to where many minerals have > been produced, and I use them constantly in my search for mines to prospect > for collectible minerals, but these reports rarely report the existence of > agate localities, geode localities and most lapidary materials. They also > don't report most quartz crystal, garnet, epidote, etc. localities. > > There also is a big difference between minerals that occur (or occurred) at > a mine when it was in production than what can be collected at a mine. > > I spend a lot of time reading geolgic literature, but one will find a lot > more collectible localities with guidebooks. > > Can't help but agree though, there are a lot of maps and directions in > guidebooks that don't get one to the expected site. > > Lanny > > >More of a rhetorical question than a comment.... > >Do we really need more guidebooks, and just how accurate do they need to > >be? > >Can we liken these books to buying that age old treasure map of "X" marks > >the spot to find the gold?? Can we, or should we really expect that for > >$10-$20 dollars someone is going to lead us right to where we should pick > >up our riches?? In many cases these guide books, are a re-distillation of > >materials already published by geological surveys, and a quick way for > >someone to make a few bucks. Wouldn't it be worth a serious minded rock > >hound's time to do some of their own research to find new and exciting > >places to "hound" in? Yes, these guides serve a purpose to those who are > >new to the hobby and also to keep abreast of closed sites, but in short do > >we need more??? > >Dennis Buffenmyer > > > >Lawrence Dee wrote: > > > >> Go ahead and offend them. Most of the guidebook writers do a terrible > >> job of creating accurate maps. The most infamous of them was probably > >> Bessie ___ who wrote several California guides. Only devine > >> intervention could get you to some of her localities! Even the > >> relatively new Mineral Collecting in Utah, written by a geologist, has > >> some bad directions. > >> > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >> multipart/mixed > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/x-vcard > >> --- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >multipart/mixed > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/x-vcard > >--- > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com > Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing > Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and > mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index > and The Mineral Database > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 05:11:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Wed Sep 4 04:11:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> WOW! What a response this has drawn! At this point it seems everyone has weighed in with their personal disappointment with the current scenario. Let me explain the reason for my original posting and then I'll let it go... I really don't consider myself to be a dealer; but understand the need to have those who are professional dealers ( who by the way have weighed in on this as for the most part having a disappointing experience also). I do maybe 2-3 small shows of local nature ( not craft shows ) and I pay $75 for three tables 8 ft long for two days. What I offer is basically about half locally collected material that has been stored for years and from what are hard to get to or non-functioning collecting sites, and about half material that I have traded for with other "dealers" from the other side of the country or overseas. Pricing; how much do you charge for a piece you found lying in the dirt; only the basis of what has been traded to me and what that material is worth at a wholesale value can I determine a price to set for my material. Admittedly, most of my material is not museum quality, but not junk broken incompletely labeled stuff. Most of the material may even be considered by some to be ugly stuff; as it is rare species material but try and balance the offering with some attractive pieces. I may have a half dozen pieces that may go up to $40 but most are in the $5-10 range and some even lower. With all this in mind; I can't even meet table costs! I do this as a love of hobby, and certainly not as an effort to augment my income, but why can't I even make table costs? The shows I attend I can assure you that 50-75% of my material is offered by no one else at the show. They are all clean, and well presented in white boxes, and completely labeled. Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem. Yes, I attempt to greet everyone who glances my way. What I do see moving are specimens that are big and showy priced at over $100! Some of these are poorly or incorrectly labeled. So, unless a person has $50-100K to invest in this quality of specimen, what is a person to do?? Am I out of my league? This is all reminding me of something that was once told me by a now deceased new englander that "this is a playground for the curator, and an outlet for the rich..." What is to become of those of us who enjoy the hobby for the science and enjoyment of the sake of the hobby? I am merely trying to offer material that may not be available to those who can not, or are not willing, to travel, or endure the severity's of collecting, at a price that won't hurt. Again, not trying to make a business out of this but; after awhile, you get to the point that if no one else is interested why spend the money and time.... Have I missed the point?? Dennis Buffenmyer Rocknlight@aol.com wrote: > Hello Walt and all > > Making ends meet is indeed very difficult, when factoring in overhead > expenses... > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/x-vcard --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 06:59:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 05:59:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> Message-ID: <3D760371.A8FA5487@earthlink.net> Dennis is correct in many ways. Small dealers are being squeezed out ot the market. But, I guess this the American way. Look at Bell Telephone, Enron, Mobil Oil, Standard Oil, etc. Walt From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 07:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 06:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...I don't agree Message-ID: <60.256e02aa.2aa761e9@aol.com> I huys. I don't agree with you. I go to about 15 shows a year (as a vendor). They are mostly club shows in NM, TX and AZ. There is always a avriety of nice sepcimens at reasonable prices for the customers. And, most clubs run silent auctions with lots of VERY cheap but usually nice specimens for sale. My own club also gives away tons of freebies to kids. (-: John Scully In a message dated 9/4/02 6:00:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: << Subj: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Date: 9/4/02 6:00:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time From: geologo@earthlink.net (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Dennis is correct in many ways. Small dealers are being squeezed out ot the market. But, I guess this the American way. Look at Bell Telephone, Enron, Mobil Oil, Standard Oil, etc. Walt >> From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 07:25:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (pop.freeserve.net (Jenkins61)) Date: Wed Sep 4 06:25:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> Message-ID: <017d01c25416$1f6ac5a0$ce0986d9@homepc> Hi Dennis, You should try living in the UK! :-) Myself and my 8 year old daughter are new to collecting and as yet we've been unable to find anyone who's able or willing to point us in the right direction. I live in Wales, where there are no shows whatsover and I'm having to travel to England in October to go to our first show. The most help I've found is from a really nice person from Kansas and he's bending over backwards trying to help us at least get started. It's a shame some shows are being over-priced with you. I think that's what started to happen over here in the 1970's, and in the end 'ordinary' people just couldn't afford the money that some of the dealers were asking. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody and I'm not wanting to cause a fight, I'm just explaining what's happened over here. I've even had to buy 'rough' to tumble from America as there's none available here. So if there are any other 'Brits' on this list please help! :-) Take care, Derian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Buffenmyer" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > WOW! > What a response this has drawn! At this point it seems everyone has weighed in > with their personal disappointment with the current scenario. > Let me explain the reason for my original posting and then I'll let it go... > I really don't consider myself to be a dealer; but understand the need to have > those who are professional dealers ( who by the way have weighed in on this as > for the most part having a disappointing experience also). I do maybe 2-3 small > shows of local nature ( not craft shows ) and I pay $75 for three tables 8 ft > long for two days. > What I offer is basically about half locally collected material that has been > stored for years and from what are hard to get to or non-functioning collecting > sites, and about half material that I have traded for with other "dealers" from > the other side of the country or overseas. Pricing; how much do you charge for a > piece you found lying in the dirt; only the basis of what has been traded to me > and what that material is worth at a wholesale value can I determine a price to > set for my material. Admittedly, most of my material is not museum quality, but > not junk broken incompletely labeled stuff. Most of the material may even be > considered by some to be ugly stuff; as it is rare species material but try and > balance the offering with some attractive pieces. I may have a half dozen pieces > that may go up to $40 but most are in the $5-10 range and some even lower. > With all this in mind; I can't even meet table costs! I do this as a love of > hobby, and certainly not as an effort to augment my income, but why can't I even > make table costs? > The shows I attend I can assure you that 50-75% of my material is offered by no > one else at the show. They are all clean, and well presented in white boxes, and > completely labeled. Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem. Yes, I attempt to > greet everyone who glances my way. > What I do see moving are specimens that are big and showy priced at over $100! > Some of these are poorly or incorrectly labeled. So, unless a person has $50-100K > to invest in this quality of specimen, what is a person to do?? Am I out of my > league? > This is all reminding me of something that was once told me by a now deceased new > englander that "this is a playground for the curator, and an outlet for the > rich..." > What is to become of those of us who enjoy the hobby for the science and > enjoyment of the sake of the hobby? I am merely trying to offer material that may > not be available to those who can not, or are not willing, to travel, or endure > the severity's of collecting, at a price that won't hurt. Again, not trying to > make a business out of this but; after awhile, you get to the point that if no > one else is interested why spend the money and time.... > Have I missed the point?? > > Dennis Buffenmyer > > > Rocknlight@aol.com wrote: > > > Hello Walt and all > > > > Making ends meet is indeed very difficult, when factoring in overhead > > expenses... > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 07:29:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Sep 4 06:29:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <01C25396.79642040.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> Message-ID: <001101c25415$ff9079a0$585204d0@jim> The Chicagoland show hasn't had a swap area in a number of years. As I understood it, the dealers objected to the competition. There may have been other reasons, but I'm not aware of them. They first went to a system of swap scrip, which could only be used to buy from dealers at the main show, then killed the swap area completely. I think the show has suffered for it. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.geocities.com/sauktown/ sauktown@adsnet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Tindell To: Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 10:08 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Gene - > > The swap meet was a tailgate affair. No tables were provided . . .nor > anything else . . . except date, time and location. Some burgers and hot dogs > were grilled for a contribution. If you didn't bring it with you it wasn't there! The > swap was held outdoors in the parking lot. HGMS sold rocks inside the club > house but I don't think anyone else did. Most people just opened their trunks > or set up a tarp. > > Thanks, > > Ed > > -----Original Message----- > From: FOSSILNUT@aol.com [SMTP:FOSSILNUT@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 6:28 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > I'm a former HGMS member now living on the East coast. What Ed fails to > mention is that HGMS is one of the few clubs that OWNS it's own clubhouse. So > the club pays no extra rent to run a show like this. He didn't mention if > tables had to be rented or did they made do with what was in the clubhouse > and what folks brought. I like the idea of a swap, but very few clubs have > access to a building and tables for nearly free so they must charge. Having > been a club president several times for different clubs as I move from place > to place I know that most clubs make a very small profit, if any, on shows > considering the amount of effort that is put in. It usually measures in the > thousands of people hours. Dealers at local club shows, for the most part, do > not make a lot of money, considering the amount of work they put in. Still > this is a labor of love for most of us. > > In Chicago the Chicagoland show (Wheaton, IL) usually combines a swap show in > the back and a commercial show in another building. It is a good combination > from the collector's point of view and probably meets the costs by sheer > size. I'm not sure how well the dealers do, as I never have done that show > as a dealer. > > More of ineterst to me, I wonder how many clubs in addition to HGMS own their > own building, and how they pulled it off. My own club ends up finding a new > place to meet and run classes etc. every 10 years or so and so I wondered > what it takes to get our own place. We've looked at it a few times but > property costs here in the East are so high, it's tough to see our way to our > own place. > > gene hartstein > > > In a message dated 9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ed-tindell@sprynet.com writes: > > > > Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > Date:9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time > > From:ed-tindell@sprynet.com > > Reply-to:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > To:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Sent from the Internet > > > > > > > > I noticed a lack of swap meets here in Texas so instead of a field trip > > in the heat of the summer I suggested a swap meet. Good way to get > > rid of all the extra specimens from the spring and fall field trips. > > So we held a swap meet here in Houston this past June. Called > > it the "First Annual Texas Rock & Fossil Swap". It was a tailgate affair > > held in the parking lot of one of the local clubs (HGMS). Despite heavy > > rains about two dozen swappers from around the state and some 75+ > > others showed up on short notice with minimal advertising. Everyone > > had a good time and, to quote one attendee the swap meet was: > > "Just like we used to do it!" > > The swap was absolutely free (not even a table fee) and you > > could do whatever you wanted to with your own material - swap, sell, > > display, lecture, et cetera. Everyone seemed to do quite well and > > want to do it again, which we will in November. It's now going to be > > twice a year. I made a point to make no distiction between collectors > > and dealers either - if you liked rocks for any reason you were welcome. > > The more the merrirer. > > > > Thanks, > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 07:31:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 06:31:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <74148A17.0DCADFB5.02180873@aol.com> A tailgate similar to that runs the 4th weekend of September in Franklin, NJ. There are indoor dealers and probably 100 tailgaters. teh tailgate fee is not free, but is not too bad either. You bring your own tables as appropriate. This one is a Saturday and Sunday affair but well worth the time to visit. Gene Hartstein In a message dated Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:08:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, ed-tindell@sprynet.com writes: > > > Gene - > > The swap meet was a tailgate affair. No tables were provided . . .nor > anything else . . . except date, time and location. Some burgers and hot dogs > were grilled for a contribution. If you didn't bring it with you it wasn't there! The > swap was held outdoors in the parking lot. HGMS sold rocks inside the club > house but I don't think anyone else did. Most people just opened their trunks > or set up a tarp. > > Thanks, > > Ed > > -----Original Message----- > From: FOSSILNUT@aol.com [SMTP:FOSSILNUT@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 6:28 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > I'm a former HGMS member now living on the East coast. What Ed fails to > mention is that HGMS is one of the few clubs that OWNS it's own clubhouse. So > the club pays no extra rent to run a show like this. He didn't mention if > tables had to be rented or did they made do with what was in the clubhouse > and what folks brought. I like the idea of a swap, but very few clubs have > access to a building and tables for nearly free so they must charge. Having > been a club president several times for different clubs as I move from place > to place I know that most clubs make a very small profit, if any, on shows > considering the amount of effort that is put in. It usually measures in the > thousands of people hours. Dealers at local club shows, for the most part, do > not make a lot of money, considering the amount of work they put in. Still > this is a labor of love for most of us. > > In Chicago the Chicagoland show (Wheaton, IL) usually combines a swap show in > the back and a commercial show in another building. It is a good combination > from the collector's point of view and probably meets the costs by sheer > size. I'm not sure how well the dealers do, as I never have done that show > as a dealer. > > More of ineterst to me, I wonder how many clubs in addition to HGMS own their > own building, and how they pulled it off. My own club ends up finding a new > place to meet and run classes etc. every 10 years or so and so I wondered > what it takes to get our own place. We've looked at it a few times but > property costs here in the East are so high, it's tough to see our way to our > own place. > > gene hartstein > > > In a message dated 9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ed-tindell@sprynet.com writes: > > > > Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > Date:9/2/2002 9:35:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time > > From:ed-tindell@sprynet.com > > Reply-to:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > To:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Sent from the Internet > > > > > > > > I noticed a lack of swap meets here in Texas so instead of a field trip > > in the heat of the summer I suggested a swap meet. Good way to get > > rid of all the extra specimens from the spring and fall field trips. > > So we held a swap meet here in Houston this past June. Called > > it the "First Annual Texas Rock & Fossil Swap". It was a tailgate affair > > held in the parking lot of one of the local clubs (HGMS). Despite heavy > > rains about two dozen swappers from around the state and some 75+ > > others showed up on short notice with minimal advertising. Everyone > > had a good time and, to quote one attendee the swap meet was: > > "Just like we used to do it!" > > The swap was absolutely free (not even a table fee) and you > > could do whatever you wanted to with your own material - swap, sell, > > display, lecture, et cetera. Everyone seemed to do quite well and > > want to do it again, which we will in November. It's now going to be > > twice a year. I made a point to make no distiction between collectors > > and dealers either - if you liked rocks for any reason > you were welcome. > > The more the merrirer. > > > > Thanks, > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 08:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Wed Sep 4 07:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D760371.A8FA5487@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003701c2541b$ba4eece0$8b511c43@s4b5j4> One observaton; It seems that most dealers try to sell the same type of inventory year after year, show after show. It's hardly any wonder why they reach a point of saturation with little or no turnover of merchandise. If one could only figure out ahead of time what is in demand and carry mostly that item for the current show you could make expenses at least. Demand appears to also run in cycles. One year Jade is hot, the next it's Turquoise and so on. Again, figuring out the cycles and being prepared for them seems to be the key. Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Dennis is correct in many ways. Small dealers are being squeezed out ot the market. > But, I guess this the American way. Look at Bell Telephone, Enron, Mobil Oil, > Standard Oil, etc. > > Walt > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 08:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Wed Sep 4 07:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <01C25396.79642040.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> <001101c25415$ff9079a0$585204d0@jim> Message-ID: <3D761692.CD5E1E7B@cox.net> Jim, I spent some years being very much involved with club shows, some as dealer chair. The clubs are quite aware it is a two way street and have been very careful in not offering direct competition to dealers. Dealers usually give an offering for the clubs Opportunity Drawing. When everything comes together well, everyone is happy. I do not see very many swap tables in this area, the silent auction generates some money for the club and is usually a fun place to pick up some very nice stuff. I often see dealers bidding right along with the rest of us. Most club shows have demonstrators, these are either just pure demonstrations with different club members rotating through over the length of the show. Then there are dealer/demonstrators, in this case they pay for their space and are allowed to sell what they make. I have seen dealers complain about this. Too often when a dealer is not selling well, the club bears the blame, not enough publicity, not enough power for 10 halogen spotlights, club members too cheap to buy, etc. It usually goes straight downhill from there. I often find it is usually the same dealer year after year. Many factors enter into the success of a dealer, most important is attitude and customer service, next is the choice of materials presented and the cost. There are dealers who feel all they need to do is to show up and set up. Then there are dealers who have a feel for the area and what will sell there. They have built up a customer base and take the time and effort to let those customers know they will be back in the area and will be bringing certain materials with them The club's responsibility to the dealers and the success of the show, is effective publicity. Some clubs are very effective at this, others not. In today's Internet world, clubs and dealers should collect in addition to addresses and phone numbers, e-mail addresses. E-mail is a very easy and inexpensive way to reach customers and prior attendees. Swaps can be in direct competition with dealers, perhaps they can be arranged in a different manner. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 08:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek) Date: Wed Sep 4 07:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: Also in the Franklin, New Jersey area: There is a Swap-and-Sell event the last Sunday of every month, from April through October, at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum in Ogdensburg, 2.5 miles from Franklin. The Mine Run dump is also available to the public for mineral collecting the same day. I don't know the fee for setting up at the Swap-and-Sell, but it's cheap, and there are regulars at this thing. Cheers- Earl Verbeek > >A tailgate similar to that runs the 4th weekend of September in Franklin, >NJ. There are indoor dealers and probably 100 tailgaters. teh tailgate fee >is not free, but is not too bad either. You bring your own tables as >appropriate. This one is a Saturday and Sunday affair but well worth the >time to visit. > >Gene Hartstein _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 09:11:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush) Date: Wed Sep 4 08:11:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New York swap References: <17a.dc1b063.2aa1541b@aol.com> <3D70F702.AE246E59@earthlink.net> <3D71059E.AC7DD47@mindspring.com> <3D715F48.3A5AD996@earthlink.net> <3D71637C.CF75BF26@mindspring.com> <3D71650E.483F1F33@earthlink.net> <3D7166D5.619ACAA0@att.net> <3D7177D7.A0A168B3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000701c25425$76ef1ba0$09af5a0c@fekib> There will be a mineral swap at the Crystal Grove Campground in St. Johnsville, NY (Herkimer Diamond country) this Saturday, Sept. 7, from 10AM to 5PM. All invited, no fees. Swapping only, no selling. Covered pavilion outside, bring your own tables and chairs. Digging available for Herkimer Diamonds at the campground. For more information, see the Crystal Grove Campground or the Fulton County Mineral Club web sites. For camping reservations, call 518-568-2914 Larry Rush From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 10:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Scott Blair) Date: Wed Sep 4 09:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] A question for lapidary club members... References: <20020904051557.34861.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> <3D75AA5A.EFCC4AA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Our club actually maintains a nice museum, with a giftshop, which generates some revenue. The property and building were donated by one of the club's founding fathers. It's only open Tues. Thurs. and Sat. and in the past has been mostly stocked with agate, jasper, and petrified wood, but that's changing now. We recently elected a club president who was a little more passionate about minerals and he has done a lot to change the "good ole boy" dynamics of the club. Also, our club show is still going strong and is one of the largest ones in the Rogue Valley of Southern Oregon. The club rents out the local National Guard Armory to hold their show. I finally made it into the show this year, and it was well attended, even for an off year. Having no prior experience at this show, I can't comment on the number of looky-loos versus actual buyers, but I think we did reasonably well. I started out doing rock yard sales in 95. I was an avid digger back then, and I couldn't keep up with the demand. Of course my prices were overly cheap.I had to hit up the grocery stores for stacks of beer flats to supply to customers who would just stop in off the street. Buyers carried rocks off by the flat. As more localities got built over or picked over, I had to resort to buying to keep up. Now I mostly buy, but still like to dig. Of course I had to bump prices up over the years, but I try to keep an overall price scheme that's 20 or 30 percent below retail, to encourage material to move, and keep the buyer excited. But digging is still important. Some of my best pieces in my personal collection were self dug. After you've dug a location over a period of years, you can put together a collection of pieces that are the very best aesthetically. I rarely, if ever see these types of things offered for sale at the shows. We are leaving a few days early for the Trona California field trips, so we can poke around in Panamint Valley and surrounding areas. It's just for fun, not for business! Warm Regards - Scott Blair From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 11:41:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 10:41:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: <63F948DF.05F7CADD.02180873@aol.com> Gosh, if a dealer could predict with accuracy what would be hot, how much to buy and what the best price for it would be (the one that yields the greatest return overall) he or she would be rich. I've found that skill to be spotty at best. In addition even good stuff at great prices eventually saturates a market. It is challenging to continuously come up with really new stuff that has not saturated the market. That is why a lot of dealers go for higher end pieces. Being more unique it is most likely that the market is not saturated and then the only question is will the selling price be justified by the quality fo the piece. I can remember only a couple of years ago I bought a lot of Orbicular Jasper because it was new, showy, and different. The original seller claimed to have a corner on the market and a couple of idiots like me bought some for resale, only to discover that the market would flood rapidly with lower priced stuff from every source in creation. We did not get our original investment back, no less a profit and I have stopped hauling it to shows because it wastes valuable sales space. In a message dated Wed, 4 Sep 2002 9:02:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rocks4u@prodigy.net writes: > > > One observaton; It seems that most dealers try to sell the same type of > inventory year after year, show after show. It's hardly any wonder why they > reach a point of saturation with little or no turnover of merchandise. If > one could only figure out ahead of time what is in demand and carry mostly > that item for the current show you could make expenses at least. Demand > appears to also run in cycles. One year Jade is hot, the next it's Turquoise > and so on. Again, figuring out the cycles and being prepared for them seems > to be the key. Cheers! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > > > Dennis is correct in many ways. Small dealers are being squeezed out ot > the market. > > But, I guess this the American way. Look at Bell > Telephone, Enron, Mobil > Oil, > > Standard Oil, etc. > > > > Walt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 11:53:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 10:53:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D760371.A8FA5487@earthlink.net> <003701c2541b$ba4eece0$8b511c43@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <3D76487E.56F8C127@earthlink.net> When one carries a great variety of materials and prices them well, what is then the key? Walt rocks4u wrote: > One observaton; It seems that most dealers try to sell the same type of > inventory year after year, show after show. It's hardly any wonder why they > reach a point of saturation with little or no turnover of merchandise. If > one could only figure out ahead of time what is in demand and carry mostly > that item for the current show you could make expenses at least. Demand > appears to also run in cycles. One year Jade is hot, the next it's Turquoise > and so on. Again, figuring out the cycles and being prepared for them seems > to be the key. Cheers! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > > Dennis is correct in many ways. Small dealers are being squeezed out ot > the market. > > But, I guess this the American way. Look at Bell Telephone, Enron, Mobil > Oil, > > Standard Oil, etc. > > > > Walt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 13:20:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 12:20:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out Message-ID: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> Just a short note to call to your attention a really different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of it From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 13:33:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave Guin) Date: Wed Sep 4 12:33:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> Message-ID: <3D765FD7.1070406@earthlink.net> First off, let me state that I know that this is an oversimplification. We are discussion a very complex issue which is influenced by everything from the economy to what TV shows are popular! However, one message that I keep seeing come through in this discussion (and others) is this; We want to increase the participation in a hobby/obsession we love. We decide to "advertise" to get more folks in. We are successful. Mom, dad, brother, and sister are now attending shows. Mom, dad, brother, and sister are just regular folk, NOT scientists or hobbyists. The percentage of systematic and/or type collectors is smaller. Regular folk appreciate aesthetics more than minerology/paleontology/geology. Regular folks' wants swing with current fad. "Commercial " dealers see a market developing. "Commercial" dealers provide the product that the new audience desires. We do not adapt. "Commercial " dealers work according to a business plan rather than a hobbyist's viewpoint. We do not adapt. "Commercial" dealers earn a significant percentage of the spending money that regular folk have. We do not adapt. The economy shifts and regular folk have less "extra" spending money. Mom, dad, brother, and sister spend their available money on the aesthetic specimens they have always preferred. Our tables remain full. We make less money. We lament that the percentage of systematic and type collectors is smaller. We have met the enemy, and he is us. Peace, dave Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: >WOW! >What a response this has drawn! At this point it seems everyone has weighed in >with their personal disappointment with the current scenario. >Let me explain the reason for my original posting and then I'll let it go... >I really don't consider myself to be a dealer; but understand the need to have >those who are professional dealers ( who by the way have weighed in on this as >for the most part having a disappointing experience also). I do maybe 2-3 small >shows of local nature ( not craft shows ) and I pay $75 for three tables 8 ft >long for two days. >What I offer is basically about half locally collected material that has been >stored for years and from what are hard to get to or non-functioning collecting >sites, and about half material that I have traded for with other "dealers" from >the other side of the country or overseas. Pricing; how much do you charge for a >piece you found lying in the dirt; only the basis of what has been traded to me >and what that material is worth at a wholesale value can I determine a price to >set for my material. Admittedly, most of my material is not museum quality, but >not junk broken incompletely labeled stuff. Most of the material may even be >considered by some to be ugly stuff; as it is rare species material but try and >balance the offering with some attractive pieces. I may have a half dozen pieces >that may go up to $40 but most are in the $5-10 range and some even lower. >With all this in mind; I can't even meet table costs! I do this as a love of >hobby, and certainly not as an effort to augment my income, but why can't I even >make table costs? >The shows I attend I can assure you that 50-75% of my material is offered by no >one else at the show. They are all clean, and well presented in white boxes, and >completely labeled. Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem. Yes, I attempt to >greet everyone who glances my way. >What I do see moving are specimens that are big and showy priced at over $100! >Some of these are poorly or incorrectly labeled. So, unless a person has $50-100K >to invest in this quality of specimen, what is a person to do?? Am I out of my >league? >This is all reminding me of something that was once told me by a now deceased new >englander that "this is a playground for the curator, and an outlet for the >rich..." >What is to become of those of us who enjoy the hobby for the science and >enjoyment of the sake of the hobby? I am merely trying to offer material that may >not be available to those who can not, or are not willing, to travel, or endure >the severity's of collecting, at a price that won't hurt. Again, not trying to >make a business out of this but; after awhile, you get to the point that if no >one else is interested why spend the money and time.... >Have I missed the point?? > >Dennis Buffenmyer > > >Rocknlight@aol.com wrote: > >>Hello Walt and all >> >>Making ends meet is indeed very difficult, when factoring in overhead >>expenses... >> > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 13:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Wed Sep 4 12:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <009a01c2544c$8b976e00$82ac3f94@win98> I'll sell you 10 pounds of clay for one dollar + shipping and handling of course. Please specify the color you want..... or you can come and dig it out from under the cleaning tables for free.... might even pay you to do it if you do a good job. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 2:19 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out > Just a short note to call to your attention a really > different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a > discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of > it > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 13:52:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 12:52:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D76643E.93D5A52@earthlink.net> I have a bridge to sell and some prime land in Florida. Walt FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: > Just a short note to call to your attention a really > different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a > discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of > it > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 13:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 12:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out Message-ID: <20020904195251.PRZV23721.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Oh heaven help us all. I long for the day when every single claim needs to be proven before the advertisement can be offered. > Just a short note to call to your attention a really > different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a > discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of > it > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 13:54:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 12:54:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D765FD7.1070406@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D7664C9.3D3A8F13@earthlink.net> Dave: You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. Otherwise, great analysis. Walt Dave Guin wrote: > First off, let me state that I know that this is an oversimplification. > We are discussion a very complex issue which is influenced by everything > from the economy to what TV shows are popular! However, one message > that I keep seeing come through in this discussion (and others) is this; > > We want to increase the participation in a hobby/obsession we love. > We decide to "advertise" to get more folks in. > We are successful. > Mom, dad, brother, and sister are now attending shows. > Mom, dad, brother, and sister are just regular folk, NOT scientists or > hobbyists. > The percentage of systematic and/or type collectors is smaller. > Regular folk appreciate aesthetics more than > minerology/paleontology/geology. > Regular folks' wants swing with current fad. > "Commercial " dealers see a market developing. > "Commercial" dealers provide the product that the new audience desires. > We do not adapt. > "Commercial " dealers work according to a business plan rather than a > hobbyist's viewpoint. > We do not adapt. > "Commercial" dealers earn a significant percentage of the spending money > that regular folk have. > We do not adapt. > The economy shifts and regular folk have less "extra" spending money. > Mom, dad, brother, and sister spend their available money on the > aesthetic specimens they have always preferred. > Our tables remain full. > We make less money. > We lament that the percentage of systematic and type collectors is smaller. > > We have met the enemy, and he is us. > > Peace, > dave > > Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > > >WOW! > >What a response this has drawn! At this point it seems everyone has weighed in > >with their personal disappointment with the current scenario. > >Let me explain the reason for my original posting and then I'll let it go... > >I really don't consider myself to be a dealer; but understand the need to have > >those who are professional dealers ( who by the way have weighed in on this as > >for the most part having a disappointing experience also). I do maybe 2-3 small > >shows of local nature ( not craft shows ) and I pay $75 for three tables 8 ft > >long for two days. > >What I offer is basically about half locally collected material that has been > >stored for years and from what are hard to get to or non-functioning collecting > >sites, and about half material that I have traded for with other "dealers" from > >the other side of the country or overseas. Pricing; how much do you charge for a > >piece you found lying in the dirt; only the basis of what has been traded to me > >and what that material is worth at a wholesale value can I determine a price to > >set for my material. Admittedly, most of my material is not museum quality, but > >not junk broken incompletely labeled stuff. Most of the material may even be > >considered by some to be ugly stuff; as it is rare species material but try and > >balance the offering with some attractive pieces. I may have a half dozen pieces > >that may go up to $40 but most are in the $5-10 range and some even lower. > >With all this in mind; I can't even meet table costs! I do this as a love of > >hobby, and certainly not as an effort to augment my income, but why can't I even > >make table costs? > >The shows I attend I can assure you that 50-75% of my material is offered by no > >one else at the show. They are all clean, and well presented in white boxes, and > >completely labeled. Attendance doesn't seem to be a problem. Yes, I attempt to > >greet everyone who glances my way. > >What I do see moving are specimens that are big and showy priced at over $100! > >Some of these are poorly or incorrectly labeled. So, unless a person has $50-100K > >to invest in this quality of specimen, what is a person to do?? Am I out of my > >league? > >This is all reminding me of something that was once told me by a now deceased new > >englander that "this is a playground for the curator, and an outlet for the > >rich..." > >What is to become of those of us who enjoy the hobby for the science and > >enjoyment of the sake of the hobby? I am merely trying to offer material that may > >not be available to those who can not, or are not willing, to travel, or endure > >the severity's of collecting, at a price that won't hurt. Again, not trying to > >make a business out of this but; after awhile, you get to the point that if no > >one else is interested why spend the money and time.... > >Have I missed the point?? > > > >Dennis Buffenmyer > > > > > >Rocknlight@aol.com wrote: > > > >>Hello Walt and all > >> > >>Making ends meet is indeed very difficult, when factoring in overhead > >>expenses... > >> > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >multipart/mixed > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/x-vcard > >--- > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 14:15:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Sep 4 13:15:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out In-Reply-To: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904101745.00a9a1d0@mail.aloha.net> What is particularly galling and even frightening about the site, is the way they use language to make it seem scientific! BTW Walt, I know some Hawaiian real estate that can be bought pretty cheap. It doesn't have much in the way of improvements, but it gets re-paved every now and then for free. Kitty At 09:19 AM 9/4/2002, you wrote: >Just a short note to call to your attention a really >different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is >too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, >ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz >crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only >$10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a >discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at >www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of >it > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 14:26:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 13:26:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <009a01c2544c$8b976e00$82ac3f94@win98> Message-ID: <3D766C27.3362D0B8@earthlink.net> Stuart: You are just too damned generous. The free part might be something, Your clay must be like the manure problem in Ontario, CA. They used to charge a nominal fee of 5 dollars a truck load. That went well. However a couple hundred thousand cows, maybe more, make a lot of poop. It started piling up and out and long. There are piles that are almost a mile long, 75 feet high and 200 yards wide. Not just one but many. They started giving it away. Now they are faced with not having enough farms to spread it on, land to pile it on or places to send it and may have to start paying to have it hauled away. NOW, do not want to say you have a crappy situation there, but ............................. Maybe someone will get smart and bag it for you. Walt Stuart Schmitt wrote: > I'll sell you 10 pounds of clay for one dollar + shipping and handling of > course. Please specify the color you want..... or you can come and dig it > out from under the cleaning tables for free.... might even pay you to do it > if you do a good job. > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 2:19 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out > > > Just a short note to call to your attention a really > > different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > > too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > > ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > > crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > > $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a > > discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > > www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of > > it > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 14:33:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (clayandkip) Date: Wed Sep 4 13:33:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201c25452$2f5cfd70$072707d8@joe> Is this from the same people that promises a 3 ct diamond from the ashes of your cremated love one..........sheesh ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:19 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out > Just a short note to call to your attention a really > different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a > discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of > it > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 15:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 14:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...1st come 1st serve Message-ID: <55.2cd9acda.2aa7d02c@aol.com> Just a thought I was reading about profit margins and higher end pieces, etc., etc.. I understand that the basic principle of resale is to approximately double or triple ones investment... In other words. If I buy a mineral specimen for $10... I sell it for 20 or 30... If I buy a parcel lot of agate for 5.00 per pound, I try and ask 10 to 15 lb. Respectively, i make $10 to $20 per mineral specimen and $5 to 10 per pound If I wholesale purchase a mineral for $200, do I try and sell it for 400 to 600 ?? If I purchase agate parcels at $12 per pound, do i sell it for $24 to 36 per pound. ??. Perhaps a 200 wholesale mineral should sell for just 225 to 250 That's still a good $25 to $50 per piece profit... And by the pound $12 wholesale... should sell for just 16 to 20..That's still a 4 to 8 per pound profit, pretty good really ! The basic principle would be to sell large amounts of material and provide profits to oneself through volume, rather than just through high prices.. However, acquiring, storing and transporting high volumes of great materials may be easier said than done, at least to on site shows.. Perhaps the best thing for all would be > High Volumes of great materials, at good prices, offered on the Internet, WITH NO AUCTIONS ! FIRST COME FIRST SERVE ! I suppose that would work for some sellers.. It definitely would work well for buyers Just a thought, toward ending the " Tucson Syndrome" RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 15:23:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 14:23:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...1st come 1st serve Message-ID: <14b.1381fe46.2aa7d395@aol.com> Not to mention costs of: Taxes Show fees hotel rooms and food required "donations" at club shows markdowns for poorly selling items costs of supplies -- boxes, labels, glue, paper, business cards, printer cartridges etc and etc and etc. In a message dated 9/4/02 2:09:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Rocknlight@aol.com writes: << Subj: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...1st come 1st serve Date: 9/4/02 2:09:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: Rocknlight@aol.com Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Just a thought I was reading about profit margins and higher end pieces, etc., etc.. I understand that the basic principle of resale is to approximately double or triple ones investment... In other words. If I buy a mineral specimen for $10... I sell it for 20 or 30... If I buy a parcel lot of agate for 5.00 per pound, I try and ask 10 to 15 lb. Respectively, i make $10 to $20 per mineral specimen and $5 to 10 per pound If I wholesale purchase a mineral for $200, do I try and sell it for 400 to 600 ?? If I purchase agate parcels at $12 per pound, do i sell it for $24 to 36 per pound. ??. Perhaps a 200 wholesale mineral should sell for just 225 to 250 That's still a good $25 to $50 per piece profit... And by the pound $12 wholesale... should sell for just 16 to 20..That's still a 4 to 8 per pound profit, pretty good really ! The basic principle would be to sell large amounts of material and provide profits to oneself through volume, rather than just through high prices.. However, acquiring, storing and transporting high volumes of great materials may be easier said than done, at least to on site shows.. Perhaps the best thing for all would be > High Volumes of great materials, at good prices, offered on the Internet, WITH NO AUCTIONS ! FIRST COME FIRST SERVE ! I suppose that would work for some sellers.. It definitely would work well for buyers Just a thought, toward ending the " Tucson Syndrome" RnL >> From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 15:31:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Sep 4 14:31:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it works just fine... OK, seriously now: I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the esoteric. She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and healing crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a hobby than a business. This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks comfort among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, there's nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe that waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware the darn thing. But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no friend of mine... There should be a law against this kind of websites. Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out | Just a short note to call to your attention a really | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of | it | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 15:41:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob G) Date: Wed Sep 4 14:41:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D765FD7.1070406@earthlink.net> <3D7664C9.3D3A8F13@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D767DDB.7000407@netscape.net> Please help fight misinformation. It wasn't Pogo. The caracter in the Pogo strip who actually expressed the famous line was Albert the Aligator. Bob G geologo@earthlink.net wrote: >Dave: > >You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. > >Otherwise, great analysis. > >Walt > >Dave Guin wrote: > >> >>We have met the enemy, and he is us. >> >>Peace, >>dave >> >>Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: >> From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:04:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:04:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... In-Reply-To: <3D767DDB.7000407@netscape.net> Message-ID: Well maybe there is more than one version but I found several examplles of this: http://www.planetwaves.net/pogo.html on the web after a google search and they all have it coming from Pogo's mouth. Thsi was an earthday 1971 strip, maybe Walt Kelly reused the quip. Bryan -----Original Message----- Please help fight misinformation. It wasn't Pogo. The caracter in the Pogo strip who actually expressed the famous line was Albert the Aligator. Bob G geologo@earthlink.net wrote: >Dave: > >You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. > >Otherwise, great analysis. > >Walt > >Dave Guin wrote: > >> >>We have met the enemy, and he is us. >> >>Peace, >>dave >> >>Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: >> _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:15:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:15:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...1st come 1st serve References: <55.2cd9acda.2aa7d02c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D7685D1.AA478ED1@earthlink.net> You cannot always "Keystone" everything you buy. Sometimes you pay too much for a lot to get a couple of under valued pieces. You make it up. Generally, If I can make 50% of the purchase price and cost as profit, I am fine. Hence, if a mineral cost me 10 dollars, I would sell for 15. Sometimes a piece is generally undervalued and can be sold for 50 or 100 after paying a nice piece for it. I had one nice piece which I bought in China for 50 dollars. A well known dealer whom I know and deal with came by. He asked me the price as I was setting up and did not have its card on it yet. I off handedly told him 800 dollars. He almost broke his arm getting the money out of his pocket. He sold it for 3200 dollars. Is that fair? Did I charge him too much or too little? DId he make a fair profit? Did he over charge? Some specimens have no relationship to cost. Some you can make a wonderful profit whilst others you don't. Go figger. I wish I had more of those, but my average sale is under 50 dollars with the larger pieces making me happy for the gross. Sometimes the little pieces, dollar cost pieces that I get 5 dollars for yeild a bigger profit than the expensive pieces. Percentage wise, that is. Walt Rocknlight@aol.com wrote: > Just a thought > > I was reading about profit margins and higher end pieces, etc., etc.. > > I understand that the basic principle of resale is to approximately double or > triple ones investment... > > In other words. If I buy a mineral specimen for $10... I sell it for 20 or > 30... > > If I buy a parcel lot of agate for 5.00 per pound, I try and ask 10 to 15 lb. > > Respectively, i make $10 to $20 per mineral specimen and $5 to 10 per pound > > If I wholesale purchase a mineral for $200, do I try and sell it for 400 to > 600 ?? > > If I purchase agate parcels at $12 per pound, do i sell it for $24 to 36 per > pound. ??. > > Perhaps a 200 wholesale mineral should sell for just 225 to 250 > That's still a good $25 to $50 per piece profit... > > And by the pound $12 wholesale... should sell for just 16 to 20..That's > still a 4 to 8 per pound profit, pretty good really ! > > The basic principle would be to sell large amounts of material and provide > profits to oneself through volume, rather than just through high prices.. > > However, acquiring, storing and transporting high volumes of great materials > may be easier said than done, at least to on site shows.. > > Perhaps the best thing for all would be > High Volumes of great materials, > at good prices, offered on the Internet, WITH NO AUCTIONS ! FIRST COME FIRST > SERVE ! > > I suppose that would work for some sellers.. It definitely would work well > for buyers > > Just a thought, toward ending the " Tucson Syndrome" > > RnL > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> Who knows, Maybe crystals do have some properties as yet un-understood. After all, wonderfully regular crystal lattices, catching all of the energy, etc. Look at quartz. Piezoelectric. Right. What do we know. However, I think that the mud thing is better baked into bricks and made into a house or planter or sumthin' else. walt Axel Emmermann wrote: > I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it works just > fine... > > OK, seriously now: > > I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the esoteric. > She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and healing > crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a hobby than > a business. > This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks comfort > among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, there's > nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe that > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware the darn > thing. > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no friend of > mine... > There should be a law against this kind of websites. > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out > > | Just a short note to call to your attention a really > | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a > | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of > | it > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:23:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:23:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...1st come 1st serve References: <55.2cd9acda.2aa7d02c@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c25460$a2fbcdc0$505204d0@jim> > Perhaps the best thing for all would be > High Volumes of great materials, > at good prices, offered on the Internet, WITH NO AUCTIONS ! FIRST COME FIRST > SERVE ! > > I suppose that would work for some sellers.. It definitely would work well > for buyers > > Just a thought, toward ending the " Tucson Syndrome" It works for me, at least with micromounts. (they are kinda hard to sell at shows, anyway) Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.geocities.com/sauktown/ sauktown@adsnet.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:23:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:23:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D765FD7.1070406@earthlink.net> <3D7664C9.3D3A8F13@earthlink.net> <3D767DDB.7000407@netscape.net> Message-ID: <3D7687CB.EC94EB2A@earthlink.net> Bob, You are, of course, right. Pogo is the comic strip's name and the name of its mail character. Who was it's creator? Walt Bob G wrote: > Please help fight misinformation. It wasn't Pogo. The caracter in the > Pogo strip who actually expressed the famous line was Albert the Aligator. > Bob G > > geologo@earthlink.net wrote: > > >Dave: > > > >You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. > > > >Otherwise, great analysis. > > > >Walt > > > >Dave Guin wrote: > > > >> > >>We have met the enemy, and he is us. > >> > >>Peace, > >>dave > >> > >>Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:27:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:27:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <01C25396.79642040.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> <001101c25415$ff9079a0$585204d0@jim> <3D761692.CD5E1E7B@cox.net> Message-ID: <002901c25461$2c1f39c0$505204d0@jim> Teresa, I agree that a club running a show has to cater to the dealers- that's where most of the bucks come from. If the dealers don't want a swap area, or feel threatened by it, so be it. I'm just not convinced that a swap area is a threat to the dealers. It actually builds traffic for them. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: TAM To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:20 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Jim, > I spent some years being very much involved with club shows, some as > dealer chair. The clubs are quite aware it is a two way street and have > been very careful in not offering direct competition to dealers. Dealers > usually give an offering for the clubs Opportunity Drawing. When > everything comes together well, everyone is happy. > > I do not see very many swap tables in this area, the silent auction > generates some money for the club and is usually a fun place to pick up > some very nice stuff. I often see dealers bidding right along with the > rest of us. > > Most club shows have demonstrators, these are either just pure > demonstrations with different club members rotating through over the > length of the show. Then there are dealer/demonstrators, in this case > they pay for their space and are allowed to sell what they make. I have > seen dealers complain about this. > > Too often when a dealer is not selling well, the club bears the blame, > not enough publicity, not enough power for 10 halogen spotlights, club > members too cheap to buy, etc. It usually goes straight downhill from > there. I often find it is usually the same dealer year after year. > > Many factors enter into the success of a dealer, most important is > attitude and customer service, next is the choice of materials presented > and the cost. There are dealers who feel all they need to do is to show > up and set up. Then there are dealers who have a feel for the area and > what will sell there. They have built up a customer base and take the > time and effort to let those customers know they will be back in the > area and will be bringing certain materials with them > > The club's responsibility to the dealers and the success of the show, is > effective publicity. Some clubs are very effective at this, others not. > In today's Internet world, clubs and dealers should collect in addition > to addresses and phone numbers, e-mail addresses. E-mail is a very easy > and inexpensive way to reach customers and prior attendees. > > Swaps can be in direct competition with dealers, perhaps they can be > arranged in a different manner. > > Teresa > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 16:37:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Wed Sep 4 15:37:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: Message-ID: <3D768ADF.285FAB7C@earthlink.net> Bob had me convinced. it was in the 50s or 60 when I last saw Pogo. Loved the little guy. Walt J Bryan Kramer wrote: > Well maybe there is more than one version but I found several examplles of > this: > > http://www.planetwaves.net/pogo.html > > on the web after a google search and they all have it coming from Pogo's > mouth. Thsi was an earthday 1971 strip, maybe Walt Kelly reused the quip. > > Bryan > > -----Original Message----- > > Please help fight misinformation. It wasn't Pogo. The caracter in the > Pogo strip who actually expressed the famous line was Albert the Aligator. > Bob G > > geologo@earthlink.net wrote: > > >Dave: > > > >You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. > > > >Otherwise, great analysis. > > > >Walt > > > >Dave Guin wrote: > > > >> > >>We have met the enemy, and he is us. > >> > >>Peace, > >>dave > >> > >>Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 17:58:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Sep 4 16:58:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... In-Reply-To: <3D7687CB.EC94EB2A@earthlink.net> References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D765FD7.1070406@earthlink.net> <3D7664C9.3D3A8F13@earthlink.net> <3D767DDB.7000407@netscape.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020904140118.0212ea40@mail.aloha.net> Walt Kelly was the creator, and though he may have reused the phrase, it is famous for appearing on an Earth Day 1971 cartoon referring to pollution, and it is said by the character Pogo, speaking to Porkypine, not Albert. Kitty At 12:23 PM 9/4/2002, you wrote: >Bob, > >You are, of course, right. Pogo is the comic strip's name and the name of >its mail character. Who was it's creator? > >Walt > >Bob G wrote: > > > Please help fight misinformation. It wasn't Pogo. The caracter in the > > Pogo strip who actually expressed the famous line was Albert the Aligator. > > Bob G > > > > geologo@earthlink.net wrote: > > > > >Dave: > > > > > >You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. > > > > > >Otherwise, great analysis. > > > > > >Walt > > > > > >Dave Guin wrote: > > > > > >> > > >>We have met the enemy, and he is us. > > >> > > >>Peace, > > >>dave > > >> > > >>Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 18:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 17:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com> I am working on an article on selling minerals. As part of that article I assembled the expenses that deduct from profit on a typical $50 mineral specimen: Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross sale price Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price Rent = 6.5% gross sale price Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a discount I am really in trouble... John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 19:04:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 18:04:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <59.20f08db9.2aa8076b@aol.com> Bless you, John. I get awfully tired of a small but significant minority of customers whining about why specimens are so expensive and wanting to bargain even on a $3.00 or $5.00 item. Much of this attitude is simple ignorance -- after all, it's "just a rock". But, some of it is simple greed, wanting something for nothing. I have made a profit in about one in 5 years in this business. Your cost list helps to explain why. (-: John Scully In a message dated 9/4/02 5:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jhbnyc@aol.com writes: << Subj: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Date: 9/4/02 5:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: Jhbnyc@aol.com Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com I am working on an article on selling minerals. As part of that article I assembled the expenses that deduct from profit on a typical $50 mineral specimen: Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross sale price Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price Rent = 6.5% gross sale price Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a discount I am really in trouble... John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com ____________________________ >> From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 19:10:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Sep 4 18:10:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D760371.A8FA5487@earthlink.net> <003701c2541b$ba4eece0$8b511c43@s4b5j4> <3D76487E.56F8C127@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D76AEBB.5B22@Tomaszewski.net> Location. Location. Location. Dr. Walter S. Bowser wrote: > > When one carries a great variety of materials and prices them well, what is > then the key? > > Walt > > rocks4u wrote: > > > One observaton; It seems that most dealers try to sell the same type of > > inventory year after year, show after show. It's hardly any wonder why they > > reach a point of saturation with little or no turnover of merchandise. If > > one could only figure out ahead of time what is in demand and carry mostly > > that item for the current show you could make expenses at least. Demand > > appears to also run in cycles. One year Jade is hot, the next it's Turquoise > > and so on. Again, figuring out the cycles and being prepared for them seems > > to be the key. Cheers! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:58 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > > > > Dennis is correct in many ways. Small dealers are being squeezed out ot > > the market. > > > But, I guess this the American way. Look at Bell Telephone, Enron, Mobil > > Oil, > > > Standard Oil, etc. > > > > > > Walt From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 19:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Wed Sep 4 18:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: John, Thanks for that table. I take it that it represents, as you said, "a typical $50 mineral specimen" that you sell. But I note that some of those costs are fixed costs. Which means, that general overhead is not 89.5% but rather that you have chosen for a typical $50 mineral specimen to seek a 10% profit margin. And thus, if you raised the price of the same specimen to $90, you would roughly have a 100% profit margin. So, while you're final statement is also true, this is instigated by your choice of the profit margin and price point? So, it's still a choice of a specific seller (you). (And by the way, I appreciate this knowledge and appreciate that you would choose a 10% profit margin. Thank you.) Jimmy On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:33:47 EDT Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > I am working on an article on selling minerals. > As part of that article I > assembled the expenses that deduct from profit > on a typical $50 mineral > specimen: > > > Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price > Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price > Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price > Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price > Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price > Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price > Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross > sale price > Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price > Rent = 6.5% gross sale price > Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price > Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price > Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price > Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price > > Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% > > That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a > discount I am really in > trouble... > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 19:35:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard Dale) Date: Wed Sep 4 18:35:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <59.20f08db9.2aa8076b@aol.com> Message-ID: <00dc01c2547c$1729f9e0$e1810244@ph.cox.net> What a great analysis... One thing overlooked was social security payments for the owner of the business. Also, if you account for 50 hours per week labor at the $1.00 per hour that much of the world thinks our time is worth, the business actually becomes a hobby. Richard Dale www.dalerocks.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals > Bless you, John. I get awfully tired of a small but significant minority of > customers whining about why specimens are so expensive and wanting to bargain > even on a $3.00 or $5.00 item. Much of this attitude is simple ignorance -- > after all, it's "just a rock". But, some of it is simple greed, wanting > something for nothing. I have made a profit in about one in 5 years in this > business. Your cost list helps to explain why. > > (-: > > John Scully > > In a message dated 9/4/02 5:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jhbnyc@aol.com > writes: > > << Subj: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals > Date: 9/4/02 5:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time > From: Jhbnyc@aol.com > Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > I am working on an article on selling minerals. As part of that article I > assembled the expenses that deduct from profit on a typical $50 mineral > specimen: > > > Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price > Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price > Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price > Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price > Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price > Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price > Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross sale price > Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price > Rent = 6.5% gross sale price > Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price > Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price > Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price > Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price > > Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% > > That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a discount I am really in > trouble... > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > ____________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 19:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Wed Sep 4 18:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out In-Reply-To: <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <20020905015121.71919.qmail@web11103.mail.yahoo.com> Alex and others, Alex said "If you believe that > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by > all means, ware the darn > thing. > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure > than you are no friend of > mine... > There should be a law against this kind of websites." > Very well said. I don't think stuff like this does our hobby any good either. Regards, Stan Perry www.emineralshow.com ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 20:10:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 19:10:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <82.2079e635.2aa816ba@aol.com> John's example is one of a piece that actually sold. What John failed to mention is the cost of theft, devalued inventory due to breakage and sheer over exposure, Capital costs or alternately value of money costs by tying up $$ in inventory, and all those other costs that come about if a mineral or fossil fails to sell quickly or if something happens to decrease it's value between the time the dealer acquires it and it gets sold or otherwise disposed of. Gene Hartstein From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 20:10:23 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 19:10:23 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: I think a lot depends on what the swap area is doing. Some swap areas have become nothing more than a venue for individuals who are buying and reselling materials (in other words they are behaving like delaers) to sell to the public without the overheads licensed dealers have and with very cheap table fees relative to the dealers. Such an uneven playing field thends to give the impression that the prices charged at the swap are the "fair" prices and the dealers "inflated" prices are just the result of "greed". On the other hand if a swap area is restricted to sale of things from your own collection as you upgrade, self-made lapidary work, and self collected minerals and fossils, I believe it can enhance the show. It shows the public what we do just like the exhibits. And the public can take someting howme as a constant reminder of what they saw. I also strongly believe that at a club show all sales need to benefit the club financially. Dealers sales usually support the club through substantial table fees. Swap areas that usually have low table fees ought to pay a % to the club's treasury. In other words if you are personally benefitting financially from a club show (which icludes upgrading by swapping) the club ought to get a cut. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 9/4/2002 6:28:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sauktown@adsnet.com writes: > Teresa, > I agree that a club running a show has to cater to the dealers- that's > where > most of the bucks come from. If the dealers don't want a swap area, or feel > threatened by it, so be it. I'm just not convinced that a swap area is a > threat to the dealers. It actually builds traffic for them. > Jim --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 20:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Wed Sep 4 19:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... Message-ID: >Swap areas that usually have > low table fees ought to pay a % to the club's > treasury. This is easily accomplished by selling "currency." 100-dinero (whatever) is purchased for $1 from the club, and exchangeable by the swap-table owner for $.90, or whatever. Likely, you must have been to a church bazaar at some point where the church sold "currency." Even the county fair. Which also makes "swapping" free. Which returns us back to our roots. Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 20:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Wed Sep 4 19:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <01C25396.79642040.ed-tindell@sprynet.com> <001101c25415$ff9079a0$585204d0@jim> <3D761692.CD5E1E7B@cox.net> <002901c25461$2c1f39c0$505204d0@jim> Message-ID: <3D76C67E.D190964@cox.net> Jim, Were it only that all dealers were rational and clear minded. Most of course are, but those that are not are very loud about their discontent and quick to look for blame for their failures. Swaps are an easy target, next come demonstrators. That is of course after cutting the guts out of the volunteers. Of course swaps encourage buyers to go on inside and see what else they can find. There is one dealer who has actively threatened law suit against a Federation and gloats over his power. Yes he has customers and supporters. Not a single one from any of us who are aware of his back stabbing. For clubs that do not have a permanent location, check with the local schools for a weekend swap tailgate. Run a Raffle and present the school a check for Earth Science Lab material or similar. I know at least two clubs that have the formal portion of the show inside the school, cafeteria or auditorium are good table locations, and run the swap tailgate outside in the parking lot. A real win-win situation. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 21:04:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Wed Sep 4 20:04:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: Message-ID: <3D76C9EE.9353551E@cox.net> Gene, You are very correct, and that is a legitimate gripe and should be heeded. There was a field trip for club members only, to a very special area, limits of purchase were set and firm. This was on long closed private land and it was to prove to the land owner that his property and rules would be respected. A club member recently turned dealer arrived towing a u-haul, planned to make an offer for what was not doled out as well as "buy" from planted shills. Not too swift, but true. To some greed comes early. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 21:04:13 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Wed Sep 4 20:04:13 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D760371.A8FA5487@earthlink.net> <003701c2541b$ba4eece0$8b511c43@s4b5j4> <3D76487E.56F8C127@earthlink.net> <3D76AEBB.5B22@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001901c25489$440116d0$d0601c43@s4b5j4> Walt, How many times during a show have people asked you for a mineral or product you left behind because you didn't think it would sell at a particular show? Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Location. Location. Location. > > > > Dr. Walter S. Bowser wrote: > > > > When one carries a great variety of materials and prices them well, what is > > then the key? > > > > Walt > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 21:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Wed Sep 4 20:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <63F948DF.05F7CADD.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <003e01c2548b$834b9070$d0601c43@s4b5j4> Yes, That was my main point, that there is little chance of predicting the market. I've found that switching between petrified wood slabs, boxes of 12 lb beer flats of slabs for $10.00 each and sometimes used equipment as show specials keeps the interest up and I do fairly well given that I even sell to other dealers quite a bit. You just never can tell what will move at any given show and I've been doing it for 20 years now. I had a similar experience with Stone Canyon Jasper, as soon as I started selling it so did everyone else. Jasper was everywhere! I'm holding on to my current supply for a while. Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Gosh, if a dealer could predict with accuracy what would be hot, how much to buy and what the best price for it would be (the one that yields the greatest return overall) he or she would be rich. I've found that skill to be spotty at best. In addition even good stuff at great prices eventually saturates a market. It is challenging to continuously come up with really new stuff that has not saturated the market. That is why a lot of dealers go for higher end pieces. Being more unique it is most likely that the market is not saturated and then the only question is will the selling price be justified by the quality fo the piece. > > I can remember only a couple of years ago I bought a lot of Orbicular Jasper because it was new, showy, and different. The original seller claimed to have a corner on the market and a couple of idiots like me bought some for resale, only to discover that the market would flood rapidly with lower priced stuff from every source in creation. We did not get our original investment back, no less a profit and I have stopped hauling it to shows because it wastes valuable sales space. > > > > In a message dated Wed, 4 Sep 2002 9:02:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, rocks4u@prodigy.net writes: From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 22:49:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Wed Sep 4 21:49:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D765FD7.1070406@earthlink.net> <3D7664C9.3D3A8F13@earthlink.net> <3D767DDB.7000407@netscape.net> Message-ID: <009801c25499$19aea2c0$3c8d4d0c@jade> You all do Walt Kelly proud.. the Jack Acid Society is alive and well.....(for them what understands!) Jane:^) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob G" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > Please help fight misinformation. It wasn't Pogo. The caracter in the > Pogo strip who actually expressed the famous line was Albert the Aligator. > Bob G > > geologo@earthlink.net wrote: > > >Dave: > > > >You forgot to give Pogo credit for the quote. > > > >Otherwise, great analysis. > > > >Walt > > > >Dave Guin wrote: > > > >> > >>We have met the enemy, and he is us. > >> > >>Peace, > >>dave > >> > >>Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Sep 4 23:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 22:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...WALT Message-ID: <104.1b34f2d2.2aa84bf0@aol.com> Walt Thank you for you insights All excellent points you made, regarding pricing....... Which is exactly why you will continue to do very well in this business. Always a pleasure to encounter your persistent honesty, integrity and logic !! .. You are missed here in California : ) RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 00:05:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Sep 4 23:05:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <168.133d0513.2aa84dd0@aol.com> John Always like your writings Thanks for that percentage plinth. RnL From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 02:29:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 01:29:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D771595.B9124494@earthlink.net> And You do give discounts, sometimes because you wish to please a good customer or create a new one. Write that off to good will and advertising, too. Walt Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > I am working on an article on selling minerals. As part of that article I > assembled the expenses that deduct from profit on a typical $50 mineral > specimen: > > Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price > Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price > Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price > Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price > Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price > Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price > Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross sale price > Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price > Rent = 6.5% gross sale price > Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price > Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price > Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price > Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price > > Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% > > That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a discount I am really in > trouble... > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 02:32:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 01:32:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <59.20f08db9.2aa8076b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D771661.739DBB3B@earthlink.net> Those same people are the ones who want to know what you paid for it., I tell them that what I paid has no bearing on the final price. AND it is none of their goddamned business. Couched in nicer terms, SOMETIMES. Walt JScully216@aol.com wrote: > Bless you, John. I get awfully tired of a small but significant minority of > customers whining about why specimens are so expensive and wanting to bargain > even on a $3.00 or $5.00 item. Much of this attitude is simple ignorance -- > after all, it's "just a rock". But, some of it is simple greed, wanting > something for nothing. I have made a profit in about one in 5 years in this > business. Your cost list helps to explain why. > > (-: > > John Scully > > In a message dated 9/4/02 5:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Jhbnyc@aol.com > writes: > > << Subj: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals > Date: 9/4/02 5:34:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time > From: Jhbnyc@aol.com > Sender: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > Reply-to: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > I am working on an article on selling minerals. As part of that article I > assembled the expenses that deduct from profit on a typical $50 mineral > specimen: > > > Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price > Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price > Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price > Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price > Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price > Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price > Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross sale price > Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price > Rent = 6.5% gross sale price > Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price > Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price > Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price > Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price > > Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% > > That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a discount I am really in > trouble... > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > ____________________________ >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 02:34:02 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 01:34:02 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals References: Message-ID: <3D7716C0.C2A41FE6@earthlink.net> It is also true, Jimmy, that even if he had raised the price to 100 dollars, he might not have sold it. Walt Chengi Kuo wrote: > John, > > Thanks for that table. I take it that it represents, as you said, "a typical > $50 mineral > specimen" that you sell. > > But I note that some of those costs are fixed costs. Which means, that > general overhead is not 89.5% but rather that you have chosen for a typical > $50 mineral specimen to seek a 10% profit margin. > > And thus, if you raised the price of the same specimen to $90, you would > roughly have a 100% profit margin. > > So, while you're final statement is also true, this is instigated by your > choice of the profit margin and price point? So, it's still a choice of a > specific seller (you). > > (And by the way, I appreciate this knowledge and appreciate that you would > choose a 10% profit margin. Thank you.) > > Jimmy > > On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:33:47 EDT Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > > > I am working on an article on selling minerals. > > As part of that article I > > assembled the expenses that deduct from profit > > on a typical $50 mineral > > specimen: > > > > > > Advertising = 4.5% gross sale price > > Credit card commissions = 3.5% gross sale price > > Depreciation of equipment = 4% gross sale price > > Insurance = 3.5% gross sale price > > Internet hosting = .5% gross sale price > > Inventory Cost = 50% gross sale price > > Office supplies/packing/wrapping = 5% gross > > sale price > > Phone/Internet connection = 1% gross sale price > > Rent = 6.5% gross sale price > > Shows booth fees = 4% gross sale price > > Taxes/licenses = .5% gross sale price > > Travel - auto/tolls = 3.5% gross sale price > > Travel - meal/motels = 3% gross sale price > > > > Total Expenses (Overhead) = 89.50% > > > > That leaves 10.5% profit margin. If I give a > > discount I am really in > > trouble... > > > > John Betts > > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 02:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 01:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... References: <8c.1d942bb7.2aa64d29@aol.com> <3D75EA10.836AB6A3@ptd.net> <3D760371.A8FA5487@earthlink.net> <003701c2541b$ba4eece0$8b511c43@s4b5j4> <3D76487E.56F8C127@earthlink.net> <3D76AEBB.5B22@Tomaszewski.net> <001901c25489$440116d0$d0601c43@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <3D77198C.6BD90546@earthlink.net> Not often. I usually have between 3 and 5 thousand specimens on hand. Not all are out all of the time. My last show I had 72 feet of front space, 16 of side, and 56 of back. All with from 3 to 5 tiers and loaded with minerals Two years ago, I gave a local club 28 flats for their auctions and door prizes and school give aways, because it was old stuff that had not sold and I needed inventory space. Walt rocks4u wrote: > Walt, How many times during a show have people asked you for a mineral or > product you left behind because you didn't think it would sell at a > particular show? Cheers! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question... > > > Location. Location. Location. > > > > > > > > Dr. Walter S. Bowser wrote: > > > > > > When one carries a great variety of materials and prices them well, what > is > > > then the key? > > > > > > Walt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 02:55:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 01:55:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another rhetorical question...WALT References: <104.1b34f2d2.2aa84bf0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D771BC7.D522F4FE@earthlink.net> Hi Steve: Thanks for the kind words. Things are great in NM. The traffic is nothing compared to I-10 or th I-5 at 4:30 PM Heck, even at 4:30 AM. Take care of your self. Walt Rocknlight@aol.com wrote: > Walt > > Thank you for you insights > > All excellent points you made, regarding pricing....... Which is exactly why > you will continue to do very well in this business. > > Always a pleasure to encounter your persistent honesty, integrity and logic > !! .. > > You are missed here in California : ) > > RnL > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 04:29:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Sep 5 03:29:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Yes Walt, I agree with "the letter" of what you're saying but I feel like I have to dance around a bit with the "spirit" of your words ;-D))) Beautiful crystals have a mesmeric, almost hypnotizing, effect on the human mind. The often spectral-pure colors of crystals and gems induce a feeling of awe in the mind of people who already lean towards mysticism and the esoteric. There's no harm in that if that feeling is channeled into a productive emotional state. For example, this is exactly why churches (especially the old Catholic ones) have those beautiful stained glass windows. When the sunlight falls through them, they throw patches of intense color on the floor... it creates a sort of magical environment that stimulates a contemplative mood. It is quite a different matter if you start to believe that special and yet undiscovered powers reside in some crystals. I'd say that in that case the little sun-worshipper that resides imperceptibly in each of us, is sticking up it's ugly sunburned head. Sure, some new and astonishing facts about crystals are discovered regularly. Think about fractoluminescence in quartz, that wasn't there 2 years ago... But it's not magical and there is a sound explanation for it. It feels like you want to leave an "opening" for ... ahem.... the "non-sceptic" among us? (which is BTW perfectly allright with me! Don't get me wrong.) One of those "believers" once dared me, after a lengthy discussion, to prove her wrong. She even gave me a pendant (free of charge!) that I promised to ware. It would allegedly cure stress-related symptoms. The technique she recommended was to "cleanse" the stone in running water and then charge it by exposing it to the light of the moon for one night. Naturally, I asked her how I would know that the stone had worked. She then said that the polished and smooth surface of the stone would become pitted and dull. I then looked at the stone carefully and told her that the surface WAS already pitted and cracked (it was polished in a drum) which she didn't believe. I then took out my macro lens and photographed the many pits and cracks and sent her the photos. I never heard another word about the subject. Now for the moral of the story : - if you want to find someone with a TRULY open mind, look among the sceptics. - Trying to prove a "believer" wrong just pushes him/her into denial. They will shut you out, however strong your case may be. Personally, and without wanting to insult anybody's believes, I think that people who endulge in esoteric or mystic lifestyles are basically so afraid of aging, sickness and dead that they lost the ability to deal with that fear. We are, after all, nothing more than frightened children looking up at the great unknown. The "James M. Barries"among us will look for answers while the Peter Pans will start to play to sooth their fears. Neverland lies on the other side of a crystal face, it really does! To anyone who might feel offended by what I just wrote: I stand by my words but I have been known to be wrong before... It's an opinion, not the gospel ;-) May the force... oh well, you catch my drift, don't you? Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | Who knows, Maybe crystals do have some properties as yet un-understood. After | all, wonderfully regular crystal lattices, catching all of the energy, etc. | Look at quartz. Piezoelectric. Right. What do we know. However, I think that | the mud thing is better baked into bricks and made into a house or planter or | sumthin' else. | | walt | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | | > I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it works just | > fine... | > | > OK, seriously now: | > | > I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the esoteric. | > She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and healing | > crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a hobby than | > a business. | > This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks comfort | > among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, there's | > nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe that | > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware the darn | > thing. | > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no friend of | > mine... | > There should be a law against this kind of websites. | > | > Cheers | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: | > To: | > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM | > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out | > | > | Just a short note to call to your attention a really | > | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is | > | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, | > | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz | > | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only | > | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a | > | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at | > | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of | > | it | > | | > | | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 05:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Thu Sep 5 04:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] THANKS! rhetorical question... References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> I wanted to thank everyone in the group for weighing in on this; and THANK YOU very much for maintaining your civility!! There seemed to be a lot of common denominators in this whole thread, and the one issue that stood out was something like; " we do it to confuse the enemy and we are the enemy" or something like that. Thanks to all who pointed out all the swaps that still do exist, and possibly a case to be studied by all is the Sterling Hill N.J. site where every form of the hobby exists, without competition; and our hats off to the Hauck bros.!! I've pondered the idea of setting up a local swap; but there always seems to be a line that needs be drawn somewhere and that point does not seem to be static (i.e. what is the definition of a dealer, and how do you keep the swapping level on the same plane..) , so I think I'll waffle on the idea at the moment. I want to assure everyone that I did not ask the question as a "downer" but rather seeing a trend; that others who weighed in had noted resulted in disastrous outcomes. I think bottom line is we all need to think before we react, and to see beyond the short term. I did find it curious that there was no emphasis or much discussion about the use of web pages and the like within this forum; but suspect some are doing quite well if gifted in digital photo techniques and some not so well. I find though that at nearly $40/month for a commercial web page ( and yes I know there are cheaper and "slicker" websites; but don't want to subject my potential customers to such things as spam lists and unsolicited ads) that this again would require a significant amount of courage to venture that path. So, in short; I suppose I am out of my league; but will continue in my personal enjoyment of the hobby. THUMBS UP for all the great feedback and inferred encouragement!! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 06:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 05:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <168.133f0e2b.2aa8a4e0@aol.com> As many have pointed out, my typical markup is twice the wholesale price. If I chose to mark up three times the wholesale price the profit margin would be 59.9%. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 06:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 05:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> The numbers were determined by my sales from last year. In that year I sold 3000 mineral specimens. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 06:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 05:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <5BB199C5.0F9F5402.02180873@aol.com> Walt's point is right on target. If I make a mistake and overpay for a specimen, and that happens on occasion, the market will not pay me a fixed percentage above my purchase price. If I price it there, the item will not sell, at least most of the time. So then, if I make a good purchase and get a great specimen very cheap, why should I undevalue it substantially on sale? At best I'm hoping that it all evens out and that the damaged, devalued and unsold items will be balanced by the few great deals I come across. gene Hartstein In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 3:31:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > Those same people are the ones who want to know what you paid for it., I tell > them that what I paid has no bearing on the final price. AND it is none of > their goddamned business. Couched in nicer terms, > SOMETIMES. > > Walt From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 06:47:12 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Thu Sep 5 05:47:12 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> Message-ID: <008101c254da$96ab2f00$3150fea9@win98> My crystal buyers fall in two basic categories: (1) 40% mineral collectors, (2) 60% metaphysical community. The economics of the business dictate that I understand and appreciate the beliefs of both groups. I am neither a mineral collector nor a metaphysician but will gladly accept money from either group. My motto is to: "provide a quality product at a reasonable price with personalized service." I do have to admit that some people push the "personalized service" to my limits. I had one buyer get upset when the "free crystal" I sent her was not the one she saw on my web site. I told her she could return it for a full refund. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 06:49:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 05:49:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <1ba.5e6d8ae.2aa8acb2@aol.com> One of the reasons why I assembled my chart was to illustrate the economics to wholesalers and collectors that try to sell me minerals. Many try to sell my overpriced specimens and say I should mark them up 20% to make my profit. Even some noteworthy personalities in the mineral world have tried to get me to sell on 20% markup. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 06:59:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jack Nelson) Date: Thu Sep 5 05:59:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rhodonite Question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020902172116.00a34cd0@pop.erols.com> Hi, James and all. I have some rhodonite with some beautiful yellow areas in it from a quarry location in Fork Union, Virginia that was owned and worked by Bill Baltzley, former owner of the famous Morefield Gem Mine in Amelia, Virginia. I bought some at $7.50 per pound from him a few years before he died, about ten years ago, and sliced it up for some cabs. It was quite beautiful. It had all the usual manganese markings through it and, of course, took a lovely polish. Good wishes, Jack Nelson, Poolesville, Maryland >Sender: "James La Borde" >To: >From: >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 22:21:55 -0700 >Subject: [The Rockhounds List] Rhodonite Question >Hello All, >I finally got around to slabbing some rhodonite I purchased a while back. >It is rather pale pink with relatively few inclusions. While I was cutting >the piece broke on me. Fortunately, there was no damage to my blade. There >was an interesting phenomenon though. Where the stone broke there are a >number of yellowish-brown spots interspersed in the material. This appears >to be the only location in the stone that these spots appear. Is anyone >aware of what this may be? I would appreciate any information anyone could >provide. >James From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 07:07:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 06:07:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <67773607.7687B4E5.02180873@aol.com> John also fails to mention one other issue. Not matter what, a business must overall maintain a positive cash flow. That is that despite individual profit on a given piece, overall the business must maintain enough incoming cash to pay it's bills, buy new inventory, and pay the owner for his efforts. Lowering prices may increase or decrease cash flow as will raising them. Selling at very low prices is a strategy that works if the products are consumed (used up) and if you have reasonable assurance you can replace the stock. It is a rotten strategy if the goods are durable. In other words you fill up the demand and "then what". In that sense it might work better for lapidary materials or cheap minerals/fossils for classrooms which are sold to be consumed, but not so well forfinished lapidary pieces or good minerals and fossils. Selling at unreasonably high prices also hurts the dealer, giving him a false sense of profit when in fact the item may not represent a sale at all. What every dealer tries to find is the price that will sell the stock with a reasonable mark up that maintains overall a positive cash flow for the business. In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 7:15:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jhbnyc writes: > > > As many have pointed out, my typical markup is twice the wholesale price. If > I chose to mark up three times the wholesale price the > profit margin would be > 59.9%. > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 08:19:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Selby Bob) Date: Thu Sep 5 07:19:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Selling via large rock clubs classified section Message-ID: <20020905141841.95048.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> www.OlympicRocks.com Hi, I am the web developer for two clubs that have gotten together to form a joint website. Currently we have nearly 200 active members in Port Townsend and Sequim, Washington. We have a classified Ad section we just started aimed at the gem, mineral, and jewelry trade. Currently we have a non members special of $3 per month per Ad, 30 words, plus one free picture (JPG format). I can scan the picture if you don't have one digital. I would be happy to talk to you about selling your items! Please check out our site! Bob Selby rlselby@yahoo.com, 360-681-0450 http://www.OlympicRocks.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 09:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 08:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out Message-ID: <1F8777FA.76B81B5C.02180873@aol.com> Love it.... In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 7:48:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sos@ipa.net writes: > I had one buyer get upset when the > "free crystal" I sent her was not the one she saw on my web > site. I told > her she could return it for a full refund. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 09:24:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Thu Sep 5 08:24:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] New York swap References: <17a.dc1b063.2aa1541b@aol.com> <3D70F702.AE246E59@earthlink.net> <3D71059E.AC7DD47@mindspring.com> <3D715F48.3A5AD996@earthlink.net> <3D71637C.CF75BF26@mindspring.com> <3D71650E.483F1F33@earthlink.net> <3D7166D5.619ACAA0@att.net> <3D7177D7.A0A168B3@earthlink.net> <000701c25425$76ef1ba0$09af5a0c@fekib> Message-ID: <3D7776E4.1060108@ptd.net> Larry, Thanks so much for the info!! I was there not this summer but last to collect during the August time frame. Had fun, but was more successful in the wooded area, as I suppose, most of the fresh material from the ledge had been quite gone through during the summer. Was at the treasure mountain site this summer, and everyone of these is different. Couldn't find a blessed thing in the walls, but starting breaking up some of the big pieces that where laying around and found a few herkies. Probably one of those places you really got to know to be productive. I doubt I'll be to this swap this year, but sounds like a possibility for next. Been a long time since I talked with you since we came up to Conn many years ago. Hope everything is going ok for you and yours. Still collecting that yellow beryl? remember have a good time at the cinque quarry, even though not finding much. Take care. Lawrence Rush wrote: >There will be a mineral swap at the Crystal Grove Campground in St. >Johnsville, NY (Herkimer Diamond country) this Saturday, Sept. 7, from 10AM > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 10:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 09:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Flagstaff/Reno sites/guidebooks In-Reply-To: <3D75E1D0.C6DAD9BA@ptd.net> References: <17a.dc1b063.2aa1541b@aol.com> <3D70F702.AE246E59@earthlink.net> <3D71059E.AC7DD47@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Dennis, No insult taken. I only responded because you were so definitive in your messages, as I read them, that there are no good guidebooks or good maps in guidebooks. I know my guides are well received; users tell me so. They include only localities visited by me where my visit was successful and indicated that the average "rockhound" could find the material with at least a little effort. Unfortunately, many guides are like those you have stated are nearly useless. But even in mine, right after publishing the first Montana guide and the first Idaho guide one locality in each was closed, which I'm sure bothered the user after driving to those localities! As to the state and fed geological literature, it is great, if one wants to go prospecting. It's what I use the most, but you have to be willing to spend a lot of time looking at potential mineral localities with the possibility of occasionally finding something new to the collecting world. If you can only get out a few times a year, or really only on one major vacation, then going to a known locality is usually a lot more attractive than going prospecting. Thus most collectors need guidebooks to known locations. Regards, Lanny >Lanny, >First of all I want to assure you there was no insult intended in my question! >As an owner of one of your guide books, I would describe your guide to be of >the definitive nature. What I'm referring to are the guide books that are at >most just a cut and paste of material that has already been published. >All I was trying to ask was do we need more of the same? I truly believe that >if an individual where to do a little additional research on the publications >that already exist they may be able to further enhance their appreciation for >their finds. Geological reports may not cover the spectrum, and as you also >point out usually deal only with economic recovery of ore material, but with >these materials ( such as your guide books and publications such as your >newsletter) and maps it might be possible to draw a correlation between >related >occurrences and geological units to find your own area of prospect. >Again, no insult intended to you or others.... >Dennis Buffenmyer > >lanny@mineralnews.com wrote: > >> As an author of several guidebooks, with accurate maps based on topographic >> or other maps with mileages actually measured, I must say that there are >> good guidebooks out there, and yes we do need them. It is quite obvious >> from the sales of guidebooks that there is a market for them. If you don't >> need guidebooks, then don't use them. Others obvious do find a use for them >> and it is not just the beginners. >> >> Geological literature, especially state survey and USGS reports on mining >> districts may be good sources of information as to where many minerals have >> been produced, and I use them constantly in my search for mines to prospect >> for collectible minerals, but these reports rarely report the existence of >> agate localities, geode localities and most lapidary materials. They also >> don't report most quartz crystal, garnet, epidote, etc. localities. >> >> There also is a big difference between minerals that occur (or occurred) at >> a mine when it was in production than what can be collected at a mine. >> >> I spend a lot of time reading geolgic literature, but one will find a lot >> more collectible localities with guidebooks. >> >> Can't help but agree though, there are a lot of maps and directions in >> guidebooks that don't get one to the expected site. >> >> Lanny >> >> >More of a rhetorical question than a comment.... >> >Do we really need more guidebooks, and just how accurate do they need to >> >be? >> >Can we liken these books to buying that age old treasure map of "X" marks >> >the spot to find the gold?? Can we, or should we really expect that for >> >$10-$20 dollars someone is going to lead us right to where we should pick >> >up our riches?? In many cases these guide books, are a re-distillation of >> >materials already published by geological surveys, and a quick way for >> >someone to make a few bucks. Wouldn't it be worth a serious minded rock >> >hound's time to do some of their own research to find new and exciting >> >places to "hound" in? Yes, these guides serve a purpose to those who are >> >new to the hobby and also to keep abreast of closed sites, but in short do >> >we need more??? >> >Dennis Buffenmyer >> > >> >Lawrence Dee wrote: >> > >> >> Go ahead and offend them. Most of the guidebook writers do a terrible >> >> job of creating accurate maps. The most infamous of them was probably >> >> Bessie ___ who wrote several California guides. Only devine >> >> intervention could get you to some of her localities! Even the >> >> relatively new Mineral Collecting in Utah, written by a geologist, has >> >> some bad directions. >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> >> multipart/mixed >> >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> >> text/x-vcard >> >> --- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> >> Subscription Services: >> >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > >> > >> >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> >multipart/mixed >> > text/plain (text body -- kept) >> > text/x-vcard >> >--- >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> >Subscription Services: >> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com >> Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing >> Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and >> mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index >> and The Mineral Database >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/x-vcard >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lanny R. Ream - lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com Owner/Publisher - LR Ream Publishing Publisher of Mineral News, mineral guidebooks and mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index and The Mineral Database From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 10:45:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. A. Barwood) Date: Thu Sep 5 09:45:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> Not just to John, but to others as well, I am a little confused by this (and other) analysis. It sounds like you are tacking on an awful lot of personal and business expenses to the price of your specimens. Customers shouldn't pay for your personal meals, for crying out loud! A mineral business just isn't capable of this kind of spending account. Theft, loss, breakage, meals, hotels, commissions, insurance, internet hosting, phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, business expenses, depreciation – these are all deductible from taxes anyway. A little reorganization should cut costs in half, at least. Also, how do travel, meals, theft, hotels, rent and depreciation factor into specimens being sold over the Internet? Cut the buck instead of passing it on. I don't have one twentieth the expenses you all have expressed. 3000 specimens times $50 bucks on average (a low estimate) equals $150,000. Are you suggesting to me that all but a mere 10.5 percent of this total was squandered?? That's a mind boggling $134,250 dollars that's been wasted at consumer expense! No wonder people are whining... ~Adam J. Adam Barwood hbarwood@bluemarble.net http://www.mineralcollecting.org/ http://www.mineralcollecting.com/ http://www.terrasearchengine.com/ Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > The numbers were determined by my sales from last year. In that year I sold > 3000 mineral specimens. > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 10:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Thu Sep 5 09:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> Message-ID: <06d501c254fd$39ceabe0$9dcc94d1@dmschmidt> well said! Someone mentioned making 200-300% profits on sales. Boy!! I wish I could make (on average) those kinds of percentages!! By the time I am done, I average about 20-25%. And I don't think that's too bad. Occasionally, I might make 100% or more on an item, but that is less than 5% of the time. I would rather make 20% 20 times a month and make $3000, than make 100% twice a month and make $1500. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. A. Barwood" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) > Not just to John, but to others as well, > > I am a little confused by this (and other) analysis. It sounds like you are > tacking on an awful lot of personal and business expenses to the price of your > specimens. Customers shouldn't pay for your personal meals, for crying out > loud! A mineral business just isn't capable of this kind of spending account. > Theft, loss, breakage, meals, hotels, commissions, insurance, internet hosting, > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes anyway. > A little reorganization should cut costs in half, at least. Also, how do > travel, meals, theft, hotels, rent and depreciation factor into specimens being > sold over the Internet? Cut the buck instead of passing it on. I don't have > one twentieth the expenses you all have expressed. 3000 specimens times $50 > bucks on average (a low estimate) equals $150,000. Are you suggesting to me > that all but a mere 10.5 percent of this total was squandered?? That's a mind > boggling $134,250 dollars that's been wasted at consumer expense! No wonder > people are whining... > > ~Adam > > J. Adam Barwood > hbarwood@bluemarble.net > http://www.mineralcollecting.org/ > http://www.mineralcollecting.com/ > http://www.terrasearchengine.com/ > > > Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > > > The numbers were determined by my sales from last year. In that year I sold > > 3000 mineral specimens. > > > > John Betts > > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 22/08/2002 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:08:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:08:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> Hi Axel: Just saying, keep an open mind and see if things are proven some day. Who am I to say that they are not. I am ignorant, in the scheme of things, and know very little for all of my education. I am saying, I just don't know. There are always explanations for things which may appear to be "Supernatural." Things which were there for millenia suddenly are Discovered. Good points, about the feelings evoked by minerals. Walt Axel Emmermann wrote: > Yes Walt, I agree with "the letter" of what you're saying but I feel like I > have to dance around a bit with the "spirit" of your words ;-D))) > > Beautiful crystals have a mesmeric, almost hypnotizing, effect on the human > mind. The often spectral-pure colors of crystals and gems induce a feeling > of awe in the mind of people who already lean towards mysticism and the > esoteric. There's no harm in that if that feeling is channeled into a > productive emotional state. For example, this is exactly why churches > (especially the old Catholic ones) have those beautiful stained glass > windows. When the sunlight falls through them, they throw patches of intense > color on the floor... it creates a sort of magical environment that > stimulates a contemplative mood. > It is quite a different matter if you start to believe that special and yet > undiscovered powers reside in some crystals. I'd say that in that case the > little sun-worshipper that resides imperceptibly in each of us, is sticking > up it's ugly sunburned head. > Sure, some new and astonishing facts about crystals are discovered > regularly. Think about fractoluminescence in quartz, that wasn't there 2 > years ago... But it's not magical and there is a sound explanation for it. > It feels like you want to leave an "opening" for ... ahem.... the > "non-sceptic" among us? (which is BTW perfectly allright with me! Don't get > me wrong.) > > One of those "believers" once dared me, after a lengthy discussion, to prove > her wrong. She even gave me a pendant (free of charge!) that I promised to > ware. It would allegedly cure stress-related symptoms. The technique she > recommended was to "cleanse" the stone in running water and then charge it > by exposing it to the light of the moon for one night. Naturally, I asked > her how I would know that the stone had worked. She then said that the > polished and smooth surface of the stone would become pitted and dull. > I then looked at the stone carefully and told her that the surface WAS > already pitted and cracked (it was polished in a drum) which she didn't > believe. I then took out my macro lens and photographed the many pits and > cracks and sent her the photos. I never heard another word about the > subject. > > Now for the moral of the story : > - if you want to find someone with a TRULY open mind, look among the > sceptics. > - Trying to prove a "believer" wrong just pushes him/her into denial. They > will shut you out, however strong your case may be. > > Personally, and without wanting to insult anybody's believes, I think that > people who endulge in esoteric or mystic lifestyles are basically so afraid > of aging, sickness and dead that they lost the ability to deal with that > fear. We are, after all, nothing more than frightened children looking up at > the great unknown. The "James M. Barries"among us will look for answers > while the Peter Pans will start to play to sooth their fears. > Neverland lies on the other side of a crystal face, it really does! > > To anyone who might feel offended by what I just wrote: I stand by my words > but I have been known to be wrong before... It's an opinion, not the gospel > ;-) > > May the force... oh well, you catch my drift, don't you? > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out > > | Who knows, Maybe crystals do have some properties as yet un-understood. > After > | all, wonderfully regular crystal lattices, catching all of the energy, > etc. > | Look at quartz. Piezoelectric. Right. What do we know. However, I think > that > | the mud thing is better baked into bricks and made into a house or planter > or > | sumthin' else. > | > | walt > | > | Axel Emmermann wrote: > | > | > I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it works > just > | > fine... > | > > | > OK, seriously now: > | > > | > I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the esoteric. > | > She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and healing > | > crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a hobby > than > | > a business. > | > This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks comfort > | > among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, > there's > | > nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe > that > | > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware the > darn > | > thing. > | > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no friend > of > | > mine... > | > There should be a law against this kind of websites. > | > > | > Cheers > | > > | > Axel Emmermann > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > | > B-2640 Mortsel > | > Belgium > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > | > E-mail: > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > | > Visit our homepage: > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > | > Bezoek onze web-site: > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > | > My own web-site: > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: > | > To: > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM > | > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out > | > > | > | Just a short note to call to your attention a really > | > | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is > | > | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, > | > | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > | > | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only > | > | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get > a > | > | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > | > | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out > of > | > | it > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > | Subscription Services: > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > Subscription Services: > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:15:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:15:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <168.133f0e2b.2aa8a4e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D779104.F65E5DB1@earthlink.net> John You have great minerals. Good pictures too. An overhead that is pretty horrendous, and lots of things you need to move. 3 times cost, is not out of sight on some minerals, but you may not get 2X on some of them, right? Walt Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > As many have pointed out, my typical markup is twice the wholesale price. If > I chose to mark up three times the wholesale price the profit margin would be > 59.9%. > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:15:06 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:15:06 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: >Are you suggesting to me > that all but a mere 10.5 percent of this total > was squandered?? That's a mind > boggling $134,250 dollars that's been wasted at > consumer expense! No wonder > people are whining... That is a very (VERY) unfair statement. You can't get past the charge card expense, the cost of the item itself (that's in there), and many of the other listed costs. Even your list of costs that you say shouldn't be accounted, meals, travel, etc. $50 is revenue. Meals, travel, hotel, are costs. They are accounted correctly. Consider this, if you take a business trip, do you not want reimbursement for your meals? You would have had to eat anyway, why should the company reimburse you? Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:22:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:22:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> <008101c254da$96ab2f00$3150fea9@win98> Message-ID: <3D7792B2.9865F0EE@earthlink.net> Stuart, is right, we must understand our clientelle: The key seems to be "quality at a reasonable price" what EVER that means. It is what most of us strive for. Yes, we cannot afford to under value things so we lose money. We, none of us, are ever going to get fabulously wealthy on this business. We make money to pay the rent, and to afford to chase around the world collecting, etc. but, VERY few do make a great living from this. Most dealers I know have other jobs, real jobs, so to speak. Walt Stuart Schmitt wrote: > My crystal buyers fall in two basic categories: (1) 40% mineral collectors, > (2) 60% metaphysical community. The economics of the business dictate that > I understand and appreciate the beliefs of both groups. I am neither a > mineral collector nor a metaphysician but will gladly accept money from > either group. My motto is to: "provide a quality product at a reasonable > price with personalized service." I do have to admit that some people push > the "personalized service" to my limits. I had one buyer get upset when the > "free crystal" I sent her was not the one she saw on my web site. I told > her she could return it for a full refund. > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:25:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:25:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> Message-ID: <005f01c25501$0025ca00$2e36c143@7a2wp> ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. A. Barwood" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:47 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes anyway. How often we hear this! It is NOT "deductible from taxes." It reduces your profit (if any), and thus reduces taxes on the profit. How does it reduce profit? By being a legitimate business expense. And ALL business expenses have to be deducted from gross profit to calculate your net profit/loss. If you are lucky, you then may be left with a net profit, which is your taxable earnings. Then the governments get 50+% of that.... > A little reorganization should cut costs in half, at least. How would you know? Have you analysed his profit/loss and expense sheets? Have you considered: Unemployment insurance - a self employed individual is not eligible, even if his business fails through no fault of his own (major flood or fire loss, for example). Retirement program: If you want one, it has to be paid for from your earnings - another legitimate business expense. Health insurance - rates for a one or two person business are the same as for one or two individuals - astronomical. Another legitimate business expense. Now how do you propose paying for these things without marking up your inventory cost enough to cover them AND a reasonable NET profit? -dan- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:28:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:28:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <1ba.5e6d8ae.2aa8acb2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D77940C.6D26325@earthlink.net> John: I have often been accused of trying to under cut the market, by some dealers, when I have my regular prices. However, these same people want the keystone price when they buy from me. Good point. Walt Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > One of the reasons why I assembled my chart was to illustrate the economics > to wholesalers and collectors that try to sell me minerals. Many try to sell > my overpriced specimens and say I should mark them up 20% to make my profit. > Even some noteworthy personalities in the mineral world have tried to get me > to sell on 20% markup. > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ray Rodebaugh) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics (give me a break!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c25501$86d4b390$8c2f898b@ccf.org> > > They are accounted correctly. > > Consider this, if you take a business trip, do you not want > reimbursement for > your meals? You would have had to eat anyway, why should the company > reimburse you? Because they want me, a happy and enthusiastic employee, to go on the trip for their benefit. Does this need further explanation? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:34:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:34:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> <06d501c254fd$39ceabe0$9dcc94d1@dmschmidt> Message-ID: <006301c25502$5316e4a0$2e36c143@7a2wp> Sounds like that misleading add for a jewelry store that runs locally. Profit, whether gross or net, can NOT exceed 100%. A 100% gross profit implies you obtained the product for nothing and sold it for something. A 100% net profit implies the same AND that you had no legitimate business expenses involved in the obtaining or storing or displaying or advertising (etc) or selling of the product. If our net profit runs about 7% we would have to sell about $714,285 worth to make $50,000 taxable dollars a year. Raise the net profit to just 10%, and that necessary sales figure drops to $500,000. Net profit can be raised by increasing sales, increasing markup (to the point where buyer resistance overcomes the difference in net sales) or reducing expenses. And most businesses like ours have reduced expenses to the bare minimum long ago. Increasing sales usually also involves increasing legitimate business expenses (advertising, postage, whatever....), and thus does not increase net profit as much as might be expected. -dan- __ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin http://www.ManyFacets.com/ (rockshop) http://www.ManyFacets.com/dan/ (personal) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schmidt" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:56 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) > well said! > > Someone mentioned making 200-300% profits on sales. > > Boy!! I wish I could make (on average) those kinds of percentages!! > > By the time I am done, I average about 20-25%. And I don't think that's too > bad. Occasionally, I might make 100% or more on an item, but that is less > than 5% of the time. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:43:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Robert McGuire) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:43:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> <005f01c25501$0025ca00$2e36c143@7a2wp> Message-ID: <3D779757.908CEB7A@epix.net> > > > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes > anyway. If a dealer whacks the customer for the above mentioned and more "expenses" then he cannot use them as a tax write-off any way. Right????? That would be double dipping I think. Just a thought. Bob From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> Message-ID: <3D77982E.9E305DB2@earthlink.net> Adam When I travel away from home to collect or to sell specimens, the cost of that specimen includes meals I ate and had to pay for, the room I paid for and the gas or what ever transport I used. No one is whining, just stating the facts of doing business. Some sell high and make more. Some sell lower and make less. Some of us like to deal with the people we see and love the business but are not making a great profit at it. Labor of love is part of it. However, all expenses involved with collecting or selling a specimen are legitimate expenses. Ask the IRS. Yes, we have to pay Taxes on these things also, both state, including county and special district taxes, and federal. These things are deductable, but you do not recoup all of the amount. 100,000 of deductions will only yeild a savings on taxes of approximately 20,000. \Walt "J. A. Barwood" wrote: > Not just to John, but to others as well, > > I am a little confused by this (and other) analysis. It sounds like you are > tacking on an awful lot of personal and business expenses to the price of your > specimens. Customers shouldn't pay for your personal meals, for crying out > loud! A mineral business just isn't capable of this kind of spending account. > Theft, loss, breakage, meals, hotels, commissions, insurance, internet hosting, > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > business expenses, depreciation ? these are all deductible from taxes anyway. > A little reorganization should cut costs in half, at least. Also, how do > travel, meals, theft, hotels, rent and depreciation factor into specimens being > sold over the Internet? Cut the buck instead of passing it on. I don't have > one twentieth the expenses you all have expressed. 3000 specimens times $50 > bucks on average (a low estimate) equals $150,000. Are you suggesting to me > that all but a mere 10.5 percent of this total was squandered?? That's a mind > boggling $134,250 dollars that's been wasted at consumer expense! No wonder > people are whining... > > ~Adam > > J. Adam Barwood > hbarwood@bluemarble.net > http://www.mineralcollecting.org/ > http://www.mineralcollecting.com/ > http://www.terrasearchengine.com/ > > Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > > > The numbers were determined by my sales from last year. In that year I sold > > 3000 mineral specimens. > > > > John Betts > > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 11:59:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catspaw Minerals) Date: Thu Sep 5 10:59:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) In-Reply-To: <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> Message-ID: When you are in the mineral business AS A BUSINESS you HAVE to tack on those expenses. If you are going to a show, you have got to recoup all the expenses going to that show... and that includes keeping yourself from passing out from hunger! My "real" business is selling software for tests & exams. Now, if I do a software show I've got to figure in: - cost of the booth - cost of a room - cost of my food If I don't generate enough sales during that show to equal those expenses, I don't bother going. I'm lucky...my software sells for enough that if I generate 3 or 4 sales I'm home free. I can't imagine how many minerals I'd have to sell to generate enough money to pay for a show. The bottom line is, if you are selling minerals as your primary keep-food-on-the-table-and-diapers-on-the-baby thing, you HAVE to mark stuff up significantly, and if you are doing a show, you have to price your pieces to equal your expenses. They have a name for it when you don't do this: bankruptcy. GcB Catspaw Minerals Home of MasMils/PLUS http://www.catspaw-minerals.com -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of J. A. Barwood Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:48 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Not just to John, but to others as well, I am a little confused by this (and other) analysis. It sounds like you are tacking on an awful lot of personal and business expenses to the price of your specimens. .... From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 12:20:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dan Z) Date: Thu Sep 5 11:20:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> <005f01c25501$0025ca00$2e36c143@7a2wp> <3D779757.908CEB7A@epix.net> Message-ID: <001301c25508$ba178c80$2e36c143@7a2wp> Your quotes around the word "expenses" implies that you do not think that such items are legitimate business expenses. How would YOU run a business without spending money on such items? And, once again, legitimate business expenses are NOT a "tax write-off." There is no such thing other than genuine deductible charitable donations. -dan- __ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin http://www.ManyFacets.com/ (rockshop) http://www.ManyFacets.com/dan/ (personal) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert McGuire" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 13:41 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) > > > > > > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > > > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes > > anyway. > > > If a dealer whacks the customer for the above mentioned and more > "expenses" then he cannot use them as a tax write-off any way. > Right????? That would be double dipping I think. > > Just a thought. > Bob > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 12:29:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Sep 5 11:29:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> <008101c254da$96ab2f00$3150fea9@win98> Message-ID: <00a001c2550a$ae4b4e80$1bae77d5@pandora.be> I think that is a reasonable standpoint and I loved the "refund"... Somewhere in-between Captain Hook and Tinkerbell lies a broad gradient of skepticism AND belief in Neverland. ;-D))))) True, some people are just waiting to be exploited. True, they would buy their crystals from another dealer is you wouldn't sell them. Is it OK to sell "healing crystals" while you don't believe in them? I do not pretend to have enough wisdom to make a Solomon's decision nor do I want to. I do however think that one should give this issue some consideration before engaging in the sale of such "healing stones". So, without accusation or blame, here's something to think about for us all, including little ol' me: if one is not a "believer" and one sells crystals to those who are... is one then any different from a quack selling "Doctor Jollybottom's Snake Oil"? Suppose that someone who really needs therapy comes to you instead of going to a therapist. You sell that person an aquamarine because it is believed to be, and I quote from a website http://www.sacredunion.net/ : calming, soothing and alleviate fears and phobias. Actually, you sell him a tumbled opaque fragment of an inferior beryl crystal that is slightly bluish-like gray when you look at it under certain conditions... but hey, it's affordable! (not YOU, of course! I mean some obscure dealer) Now, aside from possible (temporary) "placebo" effects of relief... aren't you in fact practicing medicine illegally? If you look at it objectively: a human being is suffering from anguish and explicitly asks you to provide him/her with a means to relieve the pain. Means to relieve a physical or mental condition, isn't that the definition of medicine? I think this is a valid standpoint, even if the affliction is imaginary.. Silly, isn't it? I know, this is perhaps much ado about nothing but, from an "absolute frame of reference", aren't we as a society slowly becoming numb when it come to these every-day garden variety ethics? I wonder (and ponder) ... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Schmitt" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:48 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out | My crystal buyers fall in two basic categories: (1) 40% mineral collectors, | (2) 60% metaphysical community. The economics of the business dictate that | I understand and appreciate the beliefs of both groups. I am neither a | mineral collector nor a metaphysician but will gladly accept money from | either group. My motto is to: "provide a quality product at a reasonable | price with personalized service." I do have to admit that some people push | the "personalized service" to my limits. I had one buyer get upset when the | "free crystal" I sent her was not the one she saw on my web site. I told | her she could return it for a full refund. | | With appreciation & gratitude, | Stuart Schmitt | Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine | www.arcrystalmine.com | 60 Mary's Eagle Trail | Mount Ida, AR 71957 | (870) 867-2443 | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 12:44:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Sep 5 11:44:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Hi Walt, I know what you meant ;-D))) and I agree up to the point were open-mindedness becomes gullibility. We need to keep learning or we risk replacing sience with dogma eventually. There is no replacement for knowledge and there is no knowledge of the unknown. Yet, I have watched people teaching other people the laws of the unknown! That is what esotericism is, after all... Thanks for putting up with me. I'm not always a man of few words ;-)))))))) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | Hi Axel: | | Just saying, keep an open mind and see if things are proven some day. Who am I | to say that they are not. I am ignorant, in the scheme of things, and know | very little for all of my education. I am saying, I just don't know. | | There are always explanations for things which may appear to be | "Supernatural." Things which were there for millenia suddenly are Discovered. | | Good points, about the feelings evoked by minerals. | | Walt | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | | > Yes Walt, I agree with "the letter" of what you're saying but I feel like I | > have to dance around a bit with the "spirit" of your words ;-D))) | > | > Beautiful crystals have a mesmeric, almost hypnotizing, effect on the human | > mind. The often spectral-pure colors of crystals and gems induce a feeling | > of awe in the mind of people who already lean towards mysticism and the | > esoteric. There's no harm in that if that feeling is channeled into a | > productive emotional state. For example, this is exactly why churches | > (especially the old Catholic ones) have those beautiful stained glass | > windows. When the sunlight falls through them, they throw patches of intense | > color on the floor... it creates a sort of magical environment that | > stimulates a contemplative mood. | > It is quite a different matter if you start to believe that special and yet | > undiscovered powers reside in some crystals. I'd say that in that case the | > little sun-worshipper that resides imperceptibly in each of us, is sticking | > up it's ugly sunburned head. | > Sure, some new and astonishing facts about crystals are discovered | > regularly. Think about fractoluminescence in quartz, that wasn't there 2 | > years ago... But it's not magical and there is a sound explanation for it. | > It feels like you want to leave an "opening" for ... ahem.... the | > "non-sceptic" among us? (which is BTW perfectly allright with me! Don't get | > me wrong.) | > | > One of those "believers" once dared me, after a lengthy discussion, to prove | > her wrong. She even gave me a pendant (free of charge!) that I promised to | > ware. It would allegedly cure stress-related symptoms. The technique she | > recommended was to "cleanse" the stone in running water and then charge it | > by exposing it to the light of the moon for one night. Naturally, I asked | > her how I would know that the stone had worked. She then said that the | > polished and smooth surface of the stone would become pitted and dull. | > I then looked at the stone carefully and told her that the surface WAS | > already pitted and cracked (it was polished in a drum) which she didn't | > believe. I then took out my macro lens and photographed the many pits and | > cracks and sent her the photos. I never heard another word about the | > subject. | > | > Now for the moral of the story : | > - if you want to find someone with a TRULY open mind, look among the | > sceptics. | > - Trying to prove a "believer" wrong just pushes him/her into denial. They | > will shut you out, however strong your case may be. | > | > Personally, and without wanting to insult anybody's believes, I think that | > people who endulge in esoteric or mystic lifestyles are basically so afraid | > of aging, sickness and dead that they lost the ability to deal with that | > fear. We are, after all, nothing more than frightened children looking up at | > the great unknown. The "James M. Barries"among us will look for answers | > while the Peter Pans will start to play to sooth their fears. | > Neverland lies on the other side of a crystal face, it really does! | > | > To anyone who might feel offended by what I just wrote: I stand by my words | > but I have been known to be wrong before... It's an opinion, not the gospel | > ;-) | > | > May the force... oh well, you catch my drift, don't you? | > | > Cheers | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" | > To: | > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:20 AM | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | > | > | Who knows, Maybe crystals do have some properties as yet un-understood. | > After | > | all, wonderfully regular crystal lattices, catching all of the energy, | > etc. | > | Look at quartz. Piezoelectric. Right. What do we know. However, I think | > that | > | the mud thing is better baked into bricks and made into a house or planter | > or | > | sumthin' else. | > | | > | walt | > | | > | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | | > | > I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it works | > just | > | > fine... | > | > | > | > OK, seriously now: | > | > | > | > I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the esoteric. | > | > She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and healing | > | > crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a hobby | > than | > | > a business. | > | > This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks comfort | > | > among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, | > there's | > | > nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe | > that | > | > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware the | > darn | > | > thing. | > | > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no friend | > of | > | > mine... | > | > There should be a law against this kind of websites. | > | > | > | > Cheers | > | > | > | > Axel Emmermann | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > | > B-2640 Mortsel | > | > Belgium | > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > | > E-mail: | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > | > Visit our homepage: | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > | > My own web-site: | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > | > From: | > | > To: | > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM | > | > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out | > | > | > | > | Just a short note to call to your attention a really | > | > | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is | > | > | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, | > | > | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz | > | > | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only | > | > | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get | > a | > | > | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at | > | > | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out | > of | > | > | it | > | > | | > | > | | > | > | | > | > | _______________________________________________ | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | > | Subscription Services: | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > | | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | > Subscription Services: | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 12:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. A. Barwood) Date: Thu Sep 5 11:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> <005f01c25501$0025ca00$2e36c143@7a2wp> Message-ID: <3D77A6F5.F14ACCE3@bluemarble.net> This is the mistake I made. I assumed that sellers and Dealers were like me. I work one job that earns a living and I sell minerals and equipment on the side. I enjoy going to shows and talking "rocks" with people. Maybe there's a guest speaker that I'd like to hear. I rent a booth and take some specimens along if I've saved enough money. This way, I spend a little more on the trip but I have the potential to break even or perhaps come home on the plus side. Sometimes I waste my money, sometimes I make a little, but I always have fun. I don't try to make a living at selling rocks. Best of luck to those of you who do so. ~Adam J. Adam Barwood hbarwood@bluemarble.net http://www.mineralcollecting.org/ http://www.mineralcollecting.com/ http://www.terrasearchengine.com/ Dan Z wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J. A. Barwood" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:47 > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) > > > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes > anyway. > > How often we hear this! It is NOT "deductible from taxes." It reduces your > profit (if any), and thus reduces taxes on the profit. How does it reduce > profit? By being a legitimate business expense. And ALL business expenses > have to be deducted from gross profit to calculate your net profit/loss. If > you are lucky, you then may be left with a net profit, which is your taxable > earnings. Then the governments get 50+% of that.... > > > A little reorganization should cut costs in half, at least. > > How would you know? Have you analysed his profit/loss and expense sheets? > > Have you considered: > Unemployment insurance - a self employed individual is not eligible, even if > his business fails through no fault of his own (major flood or fire loss, > for example). > Retirement program: If you want one, it has to be paid for from your > earnings - another legitimate business expense. > Health insurance - rates for a one or two person business are the same as > for one or two individuals - astronomical. Another legitimate business > expense. > > Now how do you propose paying for these things without marking up your > inventory cost enough to cover them AND a reasonable NET profit? > > -dan- > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:03:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:03:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <3803C93E.7759CD50.02180873@aol.com> Walt: Some buyers would want me to keystone stuff I give them for nothing. Gene From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (MidLife Crisis Enterprises) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out In-Reply-To: <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: >I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it works just >fine... > >OK, seriously now: >snip > If you believe that >waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware the darn >thing. No wonder they weren't working. I have been "wearing" them incorrectly!!!! >snip >Axel Emmermann >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > >| Just a short note to call to your attention a really >| different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz is >| too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the clay, >| ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz >| crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is only >| $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you get a >| discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at >| www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick out of >| it >| From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:22:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:22:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <20020905192152.NFPT11091.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> I've been holding off because I tend to pontificate on this subject too much already, however this is a fun thread and I'm impressed that everyone has remained passionate but civil. The topic has been done and done again, so I offer some personal tidbits: 1. I'm sure many of us have seen that old Internet pass-along that describes how one specimen starts out being sold for a few dollars, then gets sold and re-sold, sometimes for thousands, until finally a collector's widow throws it in the trash. John Betts probably still has that article on his web site. It's great reading, should be mandatory reading for every collector. Mineral specimens, unlike coins, stamps, gold bullion, and even lapidary rough, are not commodities, with readily comparable values (i.e., a Standing Liberty Half Dollar grade MS-65 has a known book value, and Grade A African malachite has a generally known per-pound value for comparison shopping). I found, sadly, that there is no such thing as firm wholesale with minerals; it can be sold and re-sold many times with each middleman deciding his own markup. I bought a specimen of tugtupite from a man in Denmark; I expected to pay 1/3 of what I would pay here, instead I paid about 90% of what I would pay here from one of those overpriced fluorescent dealers. I'm guessing the days of standard middleman markup are gone; the people at the source are charging what the end buyer pays at the destination, because they know what the material sells for. The Internet, love it or hate it, is changing the way we buy minerals and how prices are figured. All these things, and more, affect values. 2. I love it when I'm holding a specimen, or I'm out field collecting, and somebody says, "What's this worth?" I respond, "Nothing, it's a rock!" Usually they make a sour face, and they say, "Yeah OK, I get it, but, what would it go for? What would you pay for it?" I respond, "Hmmmmm . . . nothing. Will you give it to me?" After which they either laugh or stomp off mumbling. Sometimes I'll say, "It's only worth whatever somebody wants to pay for it." If they stick around and have a conversation about what I'm saying, then I'll gladly help them and offer what little advice I can; if they just stomp off I know they only look at specimens as dollar signs, not as special treasures, and I don't want to waste time with them anyway. 3. On the same note as 2., sometimes I'll pick up an unmarked specimen at a dealer's table and ask, "How much is this?", to which the dealer may respond, "hee hee, how much will you give me for it?" Wrong question to ask me. "A dollar!" Again, I either get laughter or profanity. I can tell a lot about a person's heart and soul by their answers to my seemingly smartass remarks. 4. For those of us who collect solely for scientific purposes, there really is no such thing as a good price. Except for a possible tax write-off, I never expect to get any money for my specimens and I hope to never have to sell them. That is why I am always trying to get minerals as cheaply as possible (and yes I have spent $1,000 on a single specimen, so I'm not one of those guys who argues about a $5.00 micromount). Another one of my favorite dialogues occurs when I balk at the price of a mineral. Sometimes the dealer will wave his hand dismissively and rant, "Oh come on, you'll get your money back out of that, no problem!" I respond, firmly, "NO I WON'T, I'M NEVER GOING TO SELL IT!" There usually isn't an answer for that. Now, I have nothing against collecting purely for aesthetics or even for investment. I suppose I resent it somewhat when dealers assume that's why *I'm* buying minerals, when in fact I am simply acquiring specimens for study or museum use, and don't care about their supposed value. 5. The funniest story: I was talking with John Betts recently, and was complaining that I can't spend as much time as I'd like going to shows and symposia because I have a full time job and housekeeping and all that. When he said he has the same stresses, I replied, "But you don't have a job, you're a mineral dealer!" (His response was totally unprintable) Keep digging, keep dealing, keep collecting! Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:38:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:38:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: <13513E35.6394F7B2.02180873@aol.com> That's not exactly how it works. To the extent they are deductable, deductions serve to lower the taxable part of your income which is based on the profit you make. At best they return to you the tax you could have paid on the expenses you incur. If you charge a higher markup to cover costs, you increase the net profit and pay those taxes (assuming the item actually sells). So you get the deduction but you end up paying more tax, because you claimed more profit. Gene Hartstein In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:41:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, uvbob@epix.net writes: > . > > > If a dealer whacks the customer for the above mentioned and more > "expenses" then he cannot use them as a tax write-off any > way. > Right????? That would be double dipping I think. > > Just a thought. > Bob From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:39:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:39:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: <20020905193845.NSRV11091.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> If I may intrude once again, I see Adam's point. I have also found that there are two types of "dealers": full-time, registered, tax-collecting, Schedule C-filing, shop-owning dealers; and dudes who have other full-time jobs and just do this for fun, guys who may or may not collect sales tax and report their income on Schedule C (I do, by the way). I realize that some folks are corporations or LLCs and file other forms besides Schedule C, but you get the idea. In *any* business, the full-timers tend to gripe about the hobby sellers. Every once in a while, on the Philadelphia news, there will be a story about storefont owners trying to sponsor higher permit fees or an outright ban for street vendors. They claim that street vendors undersell them, which is true I suppose. But who is right? I can't say. The street vendors have less overhead, but I'm guessing they make less money. I'm just trying to reveal all sides here, and in my previous post it sounded like I was hard on dealers, which I'm generally not, and some of you on the list who are dealers know I buy minerals like there is no tomorrow. It's simply a matter of offering another perspective. The situation is definitely not black-and-white. I can tell you this: someone in a Master's program in Economics might write a fascinating thesis on the mechanisms of mineral & fossil dealing. Don > This is the mistake I made. I assumed that sellers and Dealers were like me. I > work one job that earns a living and I sell minerals and equipment on the side. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:44:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (clayandkip) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:44:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] stock in trade Message-ID: <002401c25514$647f0cb0$562707d8@joe> Hello everyone; Been reading the mail about business practices and tax's and etc. I have my own business ,been at it for a long time.I'm fully licensed = and insured and I use a CPA for tax purposes. The tenants I was taught = for my business are the same for selling rocks and minerals; buy low....sell high.....location,location,location. My stock in trade = is "time". I receive what the market will bare and sometimes the market( = Buyers ) are not there and prices get adjusted. It is simple math.So it = is with any business. There is one other thing ....the person who said one cannot deduct = travel-lodging-food is wrong. As long as you are licensed with the feds = and the state the IRS allows those type of deductions............read = your IRS manuals or go see a CPA. Fortunately I do not rely on rocks-minerals or gems for my income the = market for that is really volatile. I feel for you who put so much time = into that enterprise....it has to be a labor of love,and when I go to = those shows I appreciate that fact. Clay --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:44:05 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:44:05 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: <6B059C3B.39EBF109.02180873@aol.com> Even charitable contributions, only serve to reduce the base against which taxes are paid. If I conrtibute $500 to charity and my incremental tax rate (state, federal and local) is say 30% then I lose $350 and the government kicks in $150. In no way am I ahead of the game. Gene Hartstein In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 1:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, danielz@ix.netcom.com writes: > There is no such thing other than genuine deductible > charitable donations. > > -dan- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:53:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:53:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: <1D0E89E0.37575E4A.02180873@aol.com> I was almost sure that was the case from what you were saying. Nothing wrong with that. BTW the IRS has a name for what you are doing. They call it a "hobby". Basically IRS recognizes that you are doing this mostly for fun. You are still liable for tax on any profit you actually make but the recognition it there that a lot of folks do what you do. Note you may still need a business license and tax license, depending on your state, and the penalties for not having these can be huge. Gene Hartstein In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 1:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, hbarwood@bluemarble.net writes: > > This is the mistake I made. I assumed that sellers and Dealers were like me. I > work one job that earns a living and I sell minerals and equipment on the side. > I enjoy going to shows and talking "rocks" with people. Maybe there's a guest > speaker that I'd like to hear. I rent a booth and take some specimens along if > I've saved enough money. This way, I spend a little more on the trip but I have > the potential to break even or perhaps come home on the plus side. Sometimes I > waste my money, sometimes I make a little, but I always have fun. I don't try to > make a living at selling rocks. Best of luck to those of > you who do so. > > ~Adam > J. Adam Barwood > hbarwood@bluemarble.net From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 13:53:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 12:53:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: <2D9816A9.5D275916.02180873@aol.com> I was almost sure that was the case from what you were saying. Nothing wrong with that. BTW the IRS has a name for what you are doing. They call it a "hobby". Basically IRS recognizes that you are doing this mostly for fun. You are still liable for tax on any profit you actually make but the recognition it there that a lot of folks do what you do. Note you may still need a business license and tax license, depending on your state, and the penalties for not having these can be huge. Gene Hartstein In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 1:48:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, hbarwood@bluemarble.net writes: > > This is the mistake I made. I assumed that sellers and Dealers were like me. I > work one job that earns a living and I sell minerals and equipment on the side. > I enjoy going to shows and talking "rocks" with people. Maybe there's a guest > speaker that I'd like to hear. I rent a booth and take some specimens along if > I've saved enough money. This way, I spend a little more on the trip but I have > the potential to break even or perhaps come home on the plus side. Sometimes I > waste my money, sometimes I make a little, but I always have fun. I don't try to > make a living at selling rocks. Best of luck to those of > you who do so. > > ~Adam > J. Adam Barwood > hbarwood@bluemarble.net From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> <008101c254da$96ab2f00$3150fea9@win98> <00a001c2550a$ae4b4e80$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <01bb01c25516$f9c9f940$3150fea9@win98> Hi Axel, I want to make a distinction between selling "crystals" and selling "healing stones". I will sell a crystal that has a defined (by someone else) metaphysical configuration (window, Isis, etc.) but I never profess that is has any healing capability. Someone else has to want to believe that. I preface any description or property as a "belief system". I've had people ask how I can stand to be around all the energy of the crystals in my yard. I reply: "It's like one fish in the ocean asking the other, What's this stuff they call water?" Do you suppose that all the scientific and geological information is really just a "belief system?" With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axel Emmermann" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out > I think that is a reasonable standpoint and I loved the "refund"... > > Somewhere in-between Captain Hook and Tinkerbell lies a broad gradient of > skepticism AND belief in Neverland. ;-D))))) > True, some people are just waiting to be exploited. True, they would buy > their crystals from another dealer is you wouldn't sell them. Is it OK to > sell "healing crystals" while you don't believe in them? I do not pretend > to have enough wisdom to make a Solomon's decision nor do I want to. > I do however think that one should give this issue some consideration before > engaging in the sale of such "healing stones". > > So, without accusation or blame, here's something to think about for us all, > including little ol' me: > > if one is not a "believer" and one sells crystals to those who are... is one > then any different from a quack selling "Doctor Jollybottom's Snake Oil"? > > Suppose that someone who really needs therapy comes to you instead of going > to a therapist. You sell that person an aquamarine because it is believed to > be, and I quote from a website http://www.sacredunion.net/ : calming, > soothing and alleviate fears and phobias. Actually, you sell him a tumbled > opaque fragment of an inferior beryl crystal that is slightly bluish-like > gray when you look at it under certain conditions... but hey, it's > affordable! (not YOU, of course! I mean some obscure dealer) Now, aside from > possible (temporary) "placebo" effects of relief... aren't you in fact > practicing medicine illegally? > If you look at it objectively: a human being is suffering from anguish and > explicitly asks you to provide him/her with a means to relieve the pain. > Means to relieve a physical or mental condition, isn't that the definition > of medicine? I think this is a valid standpoint, even if the affliction is > imaginary.. > > Silly, isn't it? > > I know, this is perhaps much ado about nothing but, from an "absolute frame > of reference", aren't we as a society slowly becoming numb when it come to > these every-day garden variety ethics? > > I wonder (and ponder) ... > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:02:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:02:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics (give me a break!) References: <001b01c25501$86d4b390$8c2f898b@ccf.org> Message-ID: <3D77B830.45E1CB13@earthlink.net> Ray, I may be dense, but do not see the difference, nor your point. Please explain. Walt Ray Rodebaugh wrote: > > > > They are accounted correctly. > > > > Consider this, if you take a business trip, do you not want > > reimbursement for > > your meals? You would have had to eat anyway, why should the company > > reimburse you? > > Because they want me, a happy and enthusiastic employee, to go on the trip > for their benefit. Does this need further explanation? > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:05:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:05:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> <005f01c25501$0025ca00$2e36c143@7a2wp> <3D779757.908CEB7A@epix.net> Message-ID: <3D77B8CF.F35A9420@earthlink.net> No, Bob, they are legitimate costs involved in pricing the material. I am not a CPA, I pay one to do my books, but those are legitimate COSTS which regulate the final price. If I am allowed to deduct some money from TAXES to off set this it may increase my bottom line, but not much. Walt Robert McGuire wrote: > > > > > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > > > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes > > anyway. > > If a dealer whacks the customer for the above mentioned and more > "expenses" then he cannot use them as a tax write-off any way. > Right????? That would be double dipping I think. > > Just a thought. > Bob > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:23:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:23:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D77BCF2.73F1EC68@earthlink.net> Hey Axel Very few of us on this list are persons of few words. Keep putting up with the stuff we generate. Walt Axel Emmermann wrote: > Hi Walt, > > I know what you meant ;-D))) > and I agree up to the point were open-mindedness becomes gullibility. > We need to keep learning or we risk replacing sience with dogma eventually. > There is no replacement for knowledge and there is no knowledge of the > unknown. Yet, I have watched people teaching other people the laws of the > unknown! > That is what esotericism is, after all... > > Thanks for putting up with me. I'm not always a man of few words ;-)))))))) > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out > > | Hi Axel: > | > | Just saying, keep an open mind and see if things are proven some day. Who > am I > | to say that they are not. I am ignorant, in the scheme of things, and > know > | very little for all of my education. I am saying, I just don't know. > | > | There are always explanations for things which may appear to be > | "Supernatural." Things which were there for millenia suddenly are > Discovered. > | > | Good points, about the feelings evoked by minerals. > | > | Walt > | > | Axel Emmermann wrote: > | > | > Yes Walt, I agree with "the letter" of what you're saying but I feel > like I > | > have to dance around a bit with the "spirit" of your words ;-D))) > | > > | > Beautiful crystals have a mesmeric, almost hypnotizing, effect on the > human > | > mind. The often spectral-pure colors of crystals and gems induce a > feeling > | > of awe in the mind of people who already lean towards mysticism and the > | > esoteric. There's no harm in that if that feeling is channeled into a > | > productive emotional state. For example, this is exactly why churches > | > (especially the old Catholic ones) have those beautiful stained glass > | > windows. When the sunlight falls through them, they throw patches of > intense > | > color on the floor... it creates a sort of magical environment that > | > stimulates a contemplative mood. > | > It is quite a different matter if you start to believe that special and > yet > | > undiscovered powers reside in some crystals. I'd say that in that case > the > | > little sun-worshipper that resides imperceptibly in each of us, is > sticking > | > up it's ugly sunburned head. > | > Sure, some new and astonishing facts about crystals are discovered > | > regularly. Think about fractoluminescence in quartz, that wasn't there 2 > | > years ago... But it's not magical and there is a sound explanation for > it. > | > It feels like you want to leave an "opening" for ... ahem.... the > | > "non-sceptic" among us? (which is BTW perfectly allright with me! Don't > get > | > me wrong.) > | > > | > One of those "believers" once dared me, after a lengthy discussion, to > prove > | > her wrong. She even gave me a pendant (free of charge!) that I promised > to > | > ware. It would allegedly cure stress-related symptoms. The technique she > | > recommended was to "cleanse" the stone in running water and then charge > it > | > by exposing it to the light of the moon for one night. Naturally, I > asked > | > her how I would know that the stone had worked. She then said that the > | > polished and smooth surface of the stone would become pitted and dull. > | > I then looked at the stone carefully and told her that the surface WAS > | > already pitted and cracked (it was polished in a drum) which she didn't > | > believe. I then took out my macro lens and photographed the many pits > and > | > cracks and sent her the photos. I never heard another word about the > | > subject. > | > > | > Now for the moral of the story : > | > - if you want to find someone with a TRULY open mind, look among the > | > sceptics. > | > - Trying to prove a "believer" wrong just pushes him/her into denial. > They > | > will shut you out, however strong your case may be. > | > > | > Personally, and without wanting to insult anybody's believes, I think > that > | > people who endulge in esoteric or mystic lifestyles are basically so > afraid > | > of aging, sickness and dead that they lost the ability to deal with that > | > fear. We are, after all, nothing more than frightened children looking > up at > | > the great unknown. The "James M. Barries"among us will look for answers > | > while the Peter Pans will start to play to sooth their fears. > | > Neverland lies on the other side of a crystal face, it really does! > | > > | > To anyone who might feel offended by what I just wrote: I stand by my > words > | > but I have been known to be wrong before... It's an opinion, not the > gospel > | > ;-) > | > > | > May the force... oh well, you catch my drift, don't you? > | > > | > Cheers > | > > | > Axel Emmermann > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > | > B-2640 Mortsel > | > Belgium > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > | > E-mail: > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > | > Visit our homepage: > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > | > Bezoek onze web-site: > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > | > My own web-site: > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" > | > To: > | > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:20 AM > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out > | > > | > | Who knows, Maybe crystals do have some properties as yet > un-understood. > | > After > | > | all, wonderfully regular crystal lattices, catching all of the > energy, > | > etc. > | > | Look at quartz. Piezoelectric. Right. What do we know. However, I > think > | > that > | > | the mud thing is better baked into bricks and made into a house or > planter > | > or > | > | sumthin' else. > | > | > | > | walt > | > | > | > | Axel Emmermann wrote: > | > | > | > | > I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it > works > | > just > | > | > fine... > | > | > > | > | > OK, seriously now: > | > | > > | > | > I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the > esoteric. > | > | > She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and > healing > | > | > crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a > hobby > | > than > | > | > a business. > | > | > This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks > comfort > | > | > among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, > | > there's > | > | > nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe > | > that > | > | > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware > the > | > darn > | > | > thing. > | > | > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no > friend > | > of > | > | > mine... > | > | > There should be a law against this kind of websites. > | > | > > | > | > Cheers > | > | > > | > | > Axel Emmermann > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > | > | > B-2640 Mortsel > | > | > Belgium > | > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > | > | > E-mail: > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > | > | > Visit our homepage: > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site: > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > | > | > My own web-site: > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- > | > | > From: > | > | > To: > | > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM > | > | > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out > | > | > > | > | > | Just a short note to call to your attention a really > | > | > | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz > is > | > | > | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the > clay, > | > | > | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz > | > | > | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is > only > | > | > | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you > get > | > a > | > | > | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at > | > | > | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick > out > | > of > | > | > | it > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > | > | Subscription Services: > | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | > | > | > > | > | > _______________________________________________ > | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > | > Subscription Services: > | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > | Subscription Services: > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | > > | > _______________________________________________ > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | > Subscription Services: > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:26:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:26:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <61.25587295.2aa8a722@aol.com> <3D778AB7.B4C1B3E9@bluemarble.net> <005f01c25501$0025ca00$2e36c143@7a2wp> <3D77A6F5.F14ACCE3@bluemarble.net> Message-ID: <3D77BDB5.44CA525E@earthlink.net> Adam Remember some of us go to shows which are remote from our home towns. For me to go to Los Angeles, which used to be a 25 minute jaunt, is now a two day drive, 800 miles, means I have to get a room, need to eat, though there is some debate as to how long I could live on the fat reserves, and it costs gas, wear and tear on the car, trailer and me. Some of us do not "Make a living" selling rocks, either. It is just augmentation of our income and sometimes fun. We mostly do it because we love the business of meeting with people we have come to know over the years. Walt "J. A. Barwood" wrote: > This is the mistake I made. I assumed that sellers and Dealers were like me. I > work one job that earns a living and I sell minerals and equipment on the side. > I enjoy going to shows and talking "rocks" with people. Maybe there's a guest > speaker that I'd like to hear. I rent a booth and take some specimens along if > I've saved enough money. This way, I spend a little more on the trip but I have > the potential to break even or perhaps come home on the plus side. Sometimes I > waste my money, sometimes I make a little, but I always have fun. I don't try to > make a living at selling rocks. Best of luck to those of you who do so. > > ~Adam > J. Adam Barwood > hbarwood@bluemarble.net > http://www.mineralcollecting.org/ > http://www.mineralcollecting.com/ > http://www.terrasearchengine.com/ > > Dan Z wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J. A. Barwood" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:47 > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) > > > > > phone connection, office supplies, rent, travel expenses, advertisement, > > > business expenses, depreciation - these are all deductible from taxes > > anyway. > > > > How often we hear this! It is NOT "deductible from taxes." It reduces your > > profit (if any), and thus reduces taxes on the profit. How does it reduce > > profit? By being a legitimate business expense. And ALL business expenses > > have to be deducted from gross profit to calculate your net profit/loss. If > > you are lucky, you then may be left with a net profit, which is your taxable > > earnings. Then the governments get 50+% of that.... > > > > > A little reorganization should cut costs in half, at least. > > > > How would you know? Have you analysed his profit/loss and expense sheets? > > > > Have you considered: > > Unemployment insurance - a self employed individual is not eligible, even if > > his business fails through no fault of his own (major flood or fire loss, > > for example). > > Retirement program: If you want one, it has to be paid for from your > > earnings - another legitimate business expense. > > Health insurance - rates for a one or two person business are the same as > > for one or two individuals - astronomical. Another legitimate business > > expense. > > > > Now how do you propose paying for these things without marking up your > > inventory cost enough to cover them AND a reasonable NET profit? > > > > -dan- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:27:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:27:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <3803C93E.7759CD50.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D77BDE1.31F6F98D@earthlink.net> How true Walt FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: > Walt: > > Some buyers would want me to keystone stuff I give them for nothing. > > Gene > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:36:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:36:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <20020905193845.NSRV11091.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3D77C01A.97D5980D@earthlink.net> One might add here that we, who pay our taxes and such, are forced to pay social security taxes on the income. Not just the taxes the average guy pays, but both halves of the tax, the employers and the employee's half. AND, in my case, now that I am retired, even though I have paid taxes and social security taxes in almost every year since 1952, I cannot collect my full social security. I have to off set the SS with the amount of my teacher's pension, even though my "side job" paid SS taxes every year of that time. So, it ain't all a bed of roses. There are some thorns. Waalt morningstar@att.net wrote: > If I may intrude once again, I see Adam's point. I have > also found that there are two types of "dealers": > full-time, registered, tax-collecting, Schedule > C-filing, shop-owning dealers; and dudes who have other > full-time jobs and just do this for fun, guys who may or > may not collect sales tax and report their income on > Schedule C (I do, by the way). I realize that some > folks are corporations or LLCs and file other forms > besides Schedule C, but you get the idea. > > In *any* business, the full-timers tend to gripe about > the hobby sellers. Every once in a while, on the > Philadelphia news, there will be a story about storefont > owners trying to sponsor higher permit fees or an > outright ban for street vendors. They claim that street > vendors undersell them, which is true I suppose. But > who is right? I can't say. The street vendors have > less overhead, but I'm guessing they make less money. > > I'm just trying to reveal all sides here, and in my > previous post it sounded like I was hard on dealers, > which I'm generally not, and some of you on the list who > are dealers know I buy minerals like there is no > tomorrow. It's simply a matter of offering another > perspective. The situation is definitely not > black-and-white. I can tell you this: someone in a > Master's program in Economics might write a fascinating > thesis on the mechanisms of mineral & fossil dealing. > > Don > > > This is the mistake I made. I assumed that sellers and Dealers were like me. I > > work one job that earns a living and I sell minerals and equipment on the side. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <6B059C3B.39EBF109.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D77C09F.14481C9A@earthlink.net> Gene The government does not "kick in" anything. They just refund what you have already paid or do not collect 150 that you will not have to pay. Still, you are not a winner. Walt FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: > Even charitable contributions, only serve to reduce the base against which taxes are paid. If I conrtibute $500 to charity and my incremental tax rate (state, federal and local) is say 30% then I lose $350 and the government kicks in $150. In no way am I ahead of the game. > > Gene Hartstein > > In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 1:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, danielz@ix.netcom.com writes: > > > There is no such thing other than genuine deductible > > charitable donations. > > > > -dan- > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 14:59:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Sep 5 13:59:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> <008101c254da$96ab2f00$3150fea9@win98> <00a001c2550a$ae4b4e80$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <01bb01c25516$f9c9f940$3150fea9@win98> Message-ID: <002601c2551f$9f3b3580$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Now that is a refreshing thought... As neutral as Switzerland? I guess that is something I can live with... It also is a attitude that excludes blatant exploitation like the clay-thing... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Schmitt" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out | Hi Axel, | I want to make a distinction between selling "crystals" and selling "healing | stones". I will sell a crystal that has a defined (by someone else) | metaphysical configuration (window, Isis, etc.) but I never profess that is | has any healing capability. Someone else has to want to believe that. I | preface any description or property as a "belief system". I've had people | ask how I can stand to be around all the energy of the crystals in my yard. | I reply: "It's like one fish in the ocean asking the other, What's this | stuff they call water?" Do you suppose that all the scientific and | geological information is really just a "belief system?" | | With appreciation & gratitude, | Stuart Schmitt | Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine | www.arcrystalmine.com | 60 Mary's Eagle Trail | Mount Ida, AR 71957 | (870) 867-2443 | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Axel Emmermann" | To: | Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 1:33 PM | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out | | | > I think that is a reasonable standpoint and I loved the "refund"... | > | > Somewhere in-between Captain Hook and Tinkerbell lies a broad gradient of | > skepticism AND belief in Neverland. ;-D))))) | > True, some people are just waiting to be exploited. True, they would buy | > their crystals from another dealer is you wouldn't sell them. Is it OK to | > sell "healing crystals" while you don't believe in them? I do not pretend | > to have enough wisdom to make a Solomon's decision nor do I want to. | > I do however think that one should give this issue some consideration | before | > engaging in the sale of such "healing stones". | > | > So, without accusation or blame, here's something to think about for us | all, | > including little ol' me: | > | > if one is not a "believer" and one sells crystals to those who are... is | one | > then any different from a quack selling "Doctor Jollybottom's Snake Oil"? | > | > Suppose that someone who really needs therapy comes to you instead of | going | > to a therapist. You sell that person an aquamarine because it is believed | to | > be, and I quote from a website http://www.sacredunion.net/ : calming, | > soothing and alleviate fears and phobias. Actually, you sell him a tumbled | > opaque fragment of an inferior beryl crystal that is slightly bluish-like | > gray when you look at it under certain conditions... but hey, it's | > affordable! (not YOU, of course! I mean some obscure dealer) Now, aside | from | > possible (temporary) "placebo" effects of relief... aren't you in fact | > practicing medicine illegally? | > If you look at it objectively: a human being is suffering from anguish and | > explicitly asks you to provide him/her with a means to relieve the pain. | > Means to relieve a physical or mental condition, isn't that the definition | > of medicine? I think this is a valid standpoint, even if the affliction is | > imaginary.. | > | > Silly, isn't it? | > | > I know, this is perhaps much ado about nothing but, from an "absolute | frame | > of reference", aren't we as a society slowly becoming numb when it come to | > these every-day garden variety ethics? | > | > I wonder (and ponder) ... | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 15:00:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Sep 5 14:00:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D77BCF2.73F1EC68@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002f01c2551f$c8f14f40$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Yeah but I'm a real motormouth sometimes.... ;-))))))))))))))) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | Hey Axel | | Very few of us on this list are persons of few words. | | Keep putting up with the stuff we generate. | | Walt | | Axel Emmermann wrote: | | > Hi Walt, | > | > I know what you meant ;-D))) | > and I agree up to the point were open-mindedness becomes gullibility. | > We need to keep learning or we risk replacing sience with dogma eventually. | > There is no replacement for knowledge and there is no knowledge of the | > unknown. Yet, I have watched people teaching other people the laws of the | > unknown! | > That is what esotericism is, after all... | > | > Thanks for putting up with me. I'm not always a man of few words ;-)))))))) | > | > Axel Emmermann | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > B-2640 Mortsel | > Belgium | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > E-mail: | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > Visit our homepage: | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > My own web-site: | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" | > To: | > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:07 PM | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | > | > | Hi Axel: | > | | > | Just saying, keep an open mind and see if things are proven some day. Who | > am I | > | to say that they are not. I am ignorant, in the scheme of things, and | > know | > | very little for all of my education. I am saying, I just don't know. | > | | > | There are always explanations for things which may appear to be | > | "Supernatural." Things which were there for millenia suddenly are | > Discovered. | > | | > | Good points, about the feelings evoked by minerals. | > | | > | Walt | > | | > | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | | > | > Yes Walt, I agree with "the letter" of what you're saying but I feel | > like I | > | > have to dance around a bit with the "spirit" of your words ;-D))) | > | > | > | > Beautiful crystals have a mesmeric, almost hypnotizing, effect on the | > human | > | > mind. The often spectral-pure colors of crystals and gems induce a | > feeling | > | > of awe in the mind of people who already lean towards mysticism and the | > | > esoteric. There's no harm in that if that feeling is channeled into a | > | > productive emotional state. For example, this is exactly why churches | > | > (especially the old Catholic ones) have those beautiful stained glass | > | > windows. When the sunlight falls through them, they throw patches of | > intense | > | > color on the floor... it creates a sort of magical environment that | > | > stimulates a contemplative mood. | > | > It is quite a different matter if you start to believe that special and | > yet | > | > undiscovered powers reside in some crystals. I'd say that in that case | > the | > | > little sun-worshipper that resides imperceptibly in each of us, is | > sticking | > | > up it's ugly sunburned head. | > | > Sure, some new and astonishing facts about crystals are discovered | > | > regularly. Think about fractoluminescence in quartz, that wasn't there 2 | > | > years ago... But it's not magical and there is a sound explanation for | > it. | > | > It feels like you want to leave an "opening" for ... ahem.... the | > | > "non-sceptic" among us? (which is BTW perfectly allright with me! Don't | > get | > | > me wrong.) | > | > | > | > One of those "believers" once dared me, after a lengthy discussion, to | > prove | > | > her wrong. She even gave me a pendant (free of charge!) that I promised | > to | > | > ware. It would allegedly cure stress-related symptoms. The technique she | > | > recommended was to "cleanse" the stone in running water and then charge | > it | > | > by exposing it to the light of the moon for one night. Naturally, I | > asked | > | > her how I would know that the stone had worked. She then said that the | > | > polished and smooth surface of the stone would become pitted and dull. | > | > I then looked at the stone carefully and told her that the surface WAS | > | > already pitted and cracked (it was polished in a drum) which she didn't | > | > believe. I then took out my macro lens and photographed the many pits | > and | > | > cracks and sent her the photos. I never heard another word about the | > | > subject. | > | > | > | > Now for the moral of the story : | > | > - if you want to find someone with a TRULY open mind, look among the | > | > sceptics. | > | > - Trying to prove a "believer" wrong just pushes him/her into denial. | > They | > | > will shut you out, however strong your case may be. | > | > | > | > Personally, and without wanting to insult anybody's believes, I think | > that | > | > people who endulge in esoteric or mystic lifestyles are basically so | > afraid | > | > of aging, sickness and dead that they lost the ability to deal with that | > | > fear. We are, after all, nothing more than frightened children looking | > up at | > | > the great unknown. The "James M. Barries"among us will look for answers | > | > while the Peter Pans will start to play to sooth their fears. | > | > Neverland lies on the other side of a crystal face, it really does! | > | > | > | > To anyone who might feel offended by what I just wrote: I stand by my | > words | > | > but I have been known to be wrong before... It's an opinion, not the | > gospel | > | > ;-) | > | > | > | > May the force... oh well, you catch my drift, don't you? | > | > | > | > Cheers | > | > | > | > Axel Emmermann | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > | > B-2640 Mortsel | > | > Belgium | > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > | > E-mail: | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > | > Visit our homepage: | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > | > My own web-site: | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > | > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" | > | > To: | > | > Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:20 AM | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | > | > | > | > | Who knows, Maybe crystals do have some properties as yet | > un-understood. | > | > After | > | > | all, wonderfully regular crystal lattices, catching all of the | > energy, | > | > etc. | > | > | Look at quartz. Piezoelectric. Right. What do we know. However, I | > think | > | > that | > | > | the mud thing is better baked into bricks and made into a house or | > planter | > | > or | > | > | sumthin' else. | > | > | | > | > | walt | > | > | | > | > | Axel Emmermann wrote: | > | > | | > | > | > I'm amazed! I always put Duracell batteries in my quartz and it | > works | > | > just | > | > | > fine... | > | > | > | > | > | > OK, seriously now: | > | > | > | > | > | > I know a lady that was feeling insecure and turned toward the | > esoteric. | > | > | > She now has a lovely little shop where you can buy incense and | > healing | > | > | > crystals for practically nothing. I think the shop is more like a | > hobby | > | > than | > | > | > a business. | > | > | > This woman is the victim of her own mental frailty and she seeks | > comfort | > | > | > among the legions of like-minded. She has that right and after all, | > | > there's | > | > | > nothing wrong with a little hocus-pocus now and then. If you believe | > | > that | > | > | > waring a topaz will cure your haemorrhoids then, by all means, ware | > the | > | > darn | > | > | > thing. | > | > | > But if you prey on the gullible and the insecure than you are no | > friend | > | > of | > | > | > mine... | > | > | > There should be a law against this kind of websites. | > | > | > | > | > | > Cheers | > | > | > | > | > | > Axel Emmermann | > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen | > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties | > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12 | > | > | > B-2640 Mortsel | > | > | > Belgium | > | > | > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 | > | > | > E-mail: | > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be | > | > | > Visit our homepage: | > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html | > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site: | > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html | > | > | > My own web-site: | > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > | > | > From: | > | > | > To: | > | > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 9:19 PM | > | > | > Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out | > | > | > | > | > | > | Just a short note to call to your attention a really | > | > | > | different type of mineral site. Apparently digging Arkansas Quartz | > is | > | > | > | too tough for some people so they are getting into selling the | > clay, | > | > | > | ostensibly from around the pockets. It will "recharge" your quartz | > | > | > | crystals so they will work their best. A half pound package is | > only | > | > | > | $10.00 plus shipping for 1-3 packages. For 4 or more packages you | > get | > | > a | > | > | > | discount to $7.00 per half pound. The web site is at | > | > | > | www.geocities.com/arquartz/ . I thought you all might get a kick | > out | > | > of | > | > | > | it | > | > | > | | > | > | > | | > | > | > | | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ | > | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | > | > | Subscription Services: | > | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > | > | | > | > | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | > | > Subscription Services: | > | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > | | > | > | _______________________________________________ | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | > | Subscription Services: | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | > | | > | > | > | > _______________________________________________ | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | > Subscription Services: | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | _______________________________________________ | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > | Subscription Services: | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | > | | > | | > | > _______________________________________________ | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | > Subscription Services: | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 15:11:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 14:11:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: <5B4E437F.79D240FD.02180873@aol.com> Of course that is correct... Still the govt could decide you have to bear the full burden.... but like I said I stand corrected. gene In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 3:37:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > Gene > > The government does not "kick in" anything. They just refund what you have already paid or do not collect 150 that you > will not have to pay. Still, you are not a winner. > > Walt From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 15:27:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 14:27:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals Message-ID: <59.20fb8641.2aa925e0@aol.com> In a message dated 9/5/2002 1:15:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > You have great minerals. Good pictures too. An overhead that is pretty > horrendous, and lots of things you need to move. 3 times cost, is not out > of > sight on some minerals, but you may not get 2X on some of them, right? > I try to get 3X on many minerals, but they are balanced by the many minerals that I sell at cost (to clear out space in my warehouse), or discounts or pilferage, or damage. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 15:38:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 14:38:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: I am glad I stirred things up Message-ID: <15d.13a5f597.2aa92897@aol.com> I thought this list was dead because it was a holiday week. It's great to see some lively debate again. I am bowing out of the thread though. I offered my original email as an honest accounting based on last year's sales. It is my only source of income. Income tax was purposely omitted from the discussion because all states are different. In addition to paying Federal Income Tax, I must pay NY State and NY City income tax (11% combined). To set the record straight: I AM NOT COMPLAINING. I like the mineral business and was glad to leave a 25 year career as design director to do it full time. John Betts www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 16:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 15:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: <5B4E437F.79D240FD.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D77D5C5.11FA4385@earthlink.net> I am still fighting them for 20K they want and I don't feel I owe. Walt FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote: > Of course that is correct... Still the govt could decide you have to bear the full burden.... but like I said I stand corrected. > > gene > > In a message dated Thu, 5 Sep 2002 3:37:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > > Gene > > > > The government does not "kick in" anything. They just refund what you have already paid or do not collect 150 that you > > will not have to pay. Still, you are not a winner. > > > > Walt > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 16:18:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Thu Sep 5 15:18:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics of selling minerals References: <59.20fb8641.2aa925e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D77D7E3.F5C9393@earthlink.net> if one buys a mineral incredibly cheap, it is not unreasonable to make a bit more of a mark up. I bought a lot of minerals in Sant Eulalia, Chihuahua. When I got home I found a beautiful deep raspberry cube of rhodochrosite about 3 Cm on a side nestled in an ugly rock. That one rock was worth more than what I paid for the whole lot of material. Did I mark it up a bunch? You bet. Did I sell it. You bet. Was the buyer happy? Yes. He was another dealer who turned around and tripled his price. Was Ihappy? Sure, I made a good price and he was happy and so was I. Walt Jhbnyc@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/5/2002 1:15:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, > geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > > You have great minerals. Good pictures too. An overhead that is pretty > > horrendous, and lots of things you need to move. 3 times cost, is not out > > of > > sight on some minerals, but you may not get 2X on some of them, right? > > > > I try to get 3X on many minerals, but they are balanced by the many minerals > that I sell at cost (to clear out space in my warehouse), or discounts or > pilferage, or damage. > > John Betts > www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 16:18:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TFAJr) Date: Thu Sep 5 15:18:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Thumnail Displays In-Reply-To: <15d.13a5f597.2aa92897@aol.com> Message-ID: If yall are going to Denver and have the time, how about checking out Rob Lavinsky's booth (The Arkenstone) and take a look at the thumbnail displays I sent him as samples. He said he would take a few to the Denver show to display a few killer tn's. Let me know what you think--as although I think they are kind of spiffy, you never know what real people think. I'm thinking of gearing up and start producing them. To some they might seem a bit pricey, but refer to John Betts analysis and add labor and machine time to his list. I intend (hope) to sell these to people who have those special thumbnails and small minis that disply them in the plastic boxes. Tommy Armstrong N 35* 23' 52'' W 78* 49' 9'' "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da vinci From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 17:32:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Raugh) Date: Thu Sep 5 16:32:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses Message-ID: <003401c25537$3d69c7a0$505c8141@oemcomputer> I have NO real experience with selling rock, minerals and fossils, but = know many dealers in Indian artifacts and some of the many dozens of = other collecting areas I enjoy. I think John's figures could be accurate for some dealers, especially = those with a more "sophisticated" approach. However, I would assume most rock dealers operate like most dealers in = other fields. They are either part-time or full-time retired or their = spouse supports them. Thus, there is no rent. The business is in the basement where junk = would sit otherwise. When they travel, they do like I do, take food = along in a cooler and maybe stop at a grocery store to pick up a = sandwhich, fruit, drinks, etc. (cheaper than restaurants).=20 They stay in economy lodging or less. A big-time toy dealer nearby = (sells to Hollywood stars, as well as others) I know often sleeps in the = back of his pick-up and takes a bath in a nearby field (saw this done at = a recent knap-in). =20 Office equipment, well that's the computer they bought for their kids, = they use second-hand boxes for packing and pay for shipping by adding to = the cost of the item. Insurance--they are retired, or get through their spouse. Also, everyone cherrypicks. In most fields dealers only pay 20-30 = percent of the selling price for low cost items. And they pick up the = stuff another dealer misses or has no market for. =20 It is not unusual at a stamp show for highly knowledgeable collectors = and dealers to raid other stands for items valued at a small fraction of = their value. I know a baseball card collector and several coin collectors who will go = to a show and buy from one dealer and sell to another and make all their = costs, add to their collection and come home with hundreds and sometimes = thousands in checks and cash. They have no stand! =20 If this is your living and you raise a family, buy your own insurance = and have employees, it is completely different. Especially if you only = mark up an item 100%. Indian artifacts sell quickly ("turnover"), but = if your inventory sells more slowly I cannot imagine a dealer paying = more than $15-20 for an item that sells for $50 and staying in business = full-time on their own. That is VERY generous! My 2/10 of a cent. stan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 20:24:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (George Campbell) Date: Thu Sep 5 19:24:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: I am glad I stirred things up Message-ID: <200209052223_MC3-1-EB0-C47A@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >I like the mineral business and was glad to leave a 25 year career as design director to do it full time. John Betts< John, I now sell minerals full time as well, and it's not an easy business to earn a living at. The bottom line for me is this: I price my minerals based on a number of criteria, but the bottom line is that I must make a profit if I am to stay in this business. For the customer, the answer is simple: If my prices are too high, the customer does not purchase the specimens. There is no other issue in this, as far as I am concerned. I'm successful, so my prices must be right. George Campbell OsoSoft Mineral Connection http://www.osomin.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 21:01:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Sep 5 20:01:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Last Denver Ad Update .... Message-ID: <10d.1794f3fa.2aa9745a@aol.com> I've enjoyed reading the latest thread on the rockhound business ..... I noticed that my profit margins, expenses, etc. pretty much match up with John Betts'. Made me realize that I better sell some rocks if I want to eat next month! So here goes ....... Hi! One last reminder as I leave for Denver late tomorrow afternoon. I have a lot of great things for the show. Please stop by and see me in the Holiday Inn - room 180. Some of the highlights include: New Kermesites from China; some incredible sprays of crystals to 20 x 20 plus cm in size. A new lot of twelve "Pandaite" specimens from China; this a new species closely related to kesterite. The Chinese "christened" it "Pandaite". The IMA said "no" as this was already used and discredited for a variety of pyrochlore many years ago. The IMA is currently working up the new I.D. It is a new mineral however and I have twelve with very sharp green crystal groupings to over 4 cm in size on mica. These come from Sichuan and make very nice specimens, especially for something that is new to science. There were supposedly only around fifteen to twenty of these found two years ago; this lot is supposed to make up the best available. Many new thumbnails from a large collection recently purchased. There are some really good things in these from all over the world. Peruvian and African rhodochrosites, Tsumeb material, a few things from Bisbee, a few really good Kelly smithsonites, rarities such as stephanite and nagyagite from Europe, etc., etc. Not all of these will go to the show; the rest will make it to the website upon my return home. New selenites from Peru. A small lot but the color on these is outstanding. They make for very attractive specimens. There are some other good things from Peru as well including rhodos, interesting sulfides, silvers, etc. Specimens from the Elmwood suite of Steve Neely. Some real good things here. Plus many, many others too numerous to name. Don't forget the Wholesale Show at Dave Bunk's warehouse. Probably 10,000 specimens available there! Hope to see you at the show! Will be back updating the site regularly after I return home around Sept. 18. I will have a lot of new things to add to the site! Thanks! Dan Weinrich P.O. Box 425 Grover, MO 63040 http://www.danweinrich.com 314-378-5567 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Sep 5 22:33:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Thu Sep 5 21:33:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> Axel, I feel similar to Walt. Why try to debunk another's belief? We have only so much proven data on life to this moment in time. I have yet to see many statements without two sides. I have just received a message from Pala Gems with a recent challenge to a previously "proven" experiment related to treating corundum to color change. It is rather interesting, two scientific paths to an answer, and a challenge. I cannot prove nor disprove most which crosses my path. Beliefs in the power of stones is far older than I, I have no knowledge to support either side, so why judge what others believe? Unless a crystal dealer is a true believer and speaks for himself, it is wrong to present a specific mineral or crystal with powers that are not known to be true. I can create a piece of jewelry incorporating stones that are believed to have certain properties. I will not sell it as having those properties, for I don't know either way. Were a buyer with that belief system come upon it, it is that buyers choice to buy or not buy. The buyer knows what they are looking for, I do not and will not sell it as anything but a designed piece. I have no space in my life for those who have found the path for them self and now believes that is the only path and I must take it. I am not afraid of aging, this has been a very active lifetime, some of it incredible and some incredibly horrible. I hope I will be alive to see what the next space exploration will discover in how it all came together. If someone believes strongly that a certain crystal has the power to cure their cancer, and they have a sudden unexplained remission, does anyone really know whether or not it did? Perhaps the belief system was so strong that it was mind over matter, who can really say they know for sure? Tomorrow I will fly East to attend a surprise birthday party for my brother, who last week had seeds of radiation implanted to rid him of the cancer that has invaded his prostate. How very different is it really, seeds of radiation, crystals? One is the belief system of doctors, the other simply people through the ages with a belief in gifts from the earth. Yes the doctors are using scientific methods to support their belief, but this is recent. Who knows what will be proven later down the line. I loved the analogy of the vivid colors of the stained glass windows, what scientific methods were invoked to come to the belief in what influence those colors will have on the congregation? Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 01:03:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Sep 6 00:03:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Denver .... In-Reply-To: <10d.1794f3fa.2aa9745a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020905210833.00a961f0@mail.aloha.net> Hey all going to Denver, may you prosper and have fun. Let's hope it is a happier mood than last year. Best wishes and Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 06:41:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 05:41:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses Message-ID: <131.136c4409.2aa9fc2f@aol.com> Hi Group, For my two cents, this sounds more like the way folks I know operate, including myself. My wife supports my business and I'll admit it. Meeting people and selling rocks is the fun part. But I'll never be rich. This has been a very slow summer, thank goodness shows begin again this week end, I'm just about out of money. I suppose I good raise my prices. But I would rather move a lot of items than one or two; plus folks don't feel like they are getting a deal. I discount an awful lot of minerals for folks, all you have to do is ask, I never turn down a reasonable request. I get criticized by vendors from the DC area, because my specimens are so cheap, but sometimes by searching around, I get really good buys and just pass the good deal along to my customers. Sometimes I make bad deals like North Carolina amethyst or Colombian emeralds, these I am taking a loss on, because they are just sitting there at the prices I have on them. At the next show they will be heavily discountd and I will be taking a loss. But they will be going out the door. Criticism is welcome and let's get back to talking rocks; I've used the delete buttom a lot this week. The rock business is in bad shape due to high prices at Tucson and other places, it is time the pendulum swung the other way. David S. Phillips Sunset Fossils & Minerals Morgantown, WV From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 06:53:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Fri Sep 6 05:53:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses References: <003401c25537$3d69c7a0$505c8141@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3D78A530.5E7CCB08@earthlink.net> Stan: You make some good points. There are many people who come to shows and buy and sell with no expense because they do not rent spaces. Is this fair to those who do rent?? I have people coming to me all the time at shows with offers of materials to sell or trade. One individual even tried to selll me back some stuff he had bought from me at last years show. I have put out dollars for a space and consider this unfair competition. If I go to a show and see a dealer who has materials similar to mine and want to sell him stuff, I leave my card, tell him to stop by after the show and then hope he comes by. To sell at a show where one has not purchased space would appear to be unethical. I am not talking about a guy who has one or two things from his grandfather's collection, I am talking about guys who come to the shows just to buy and sell without having space rented, Walt Stan Raugh wrote: > I have NO real experience with selling rock, minerals and fossils, but know many dealers in Indian artifacts and some of the many dozens of other collecting areas I enjoy. > > I think John's figures could be accurate for some dealers, especially those with a more "sophisticated" approach. > > However, I would assume most rock dealers operate like most dealers in other fields. They are either part-time or full-time retired or their spouse supports them. > > Thus, there is no rent. The business is in the basement where junk would sit otherwise. When they travel, they do like I do, take food along in a cooler and maybe stop at a grocery store to pick up a sandwhich, fruit, drinks, etc. (cheaper than restaurants). > > They stay in economy lodging or less. A big-time toy dealer nearby (sells to Hollywood stars, as well as others) I know often sleeps in the back of his pick-up and takes a bath in a nearby field (saw this done at a recent knap-in). > > Office equipment, well that's the computer they bought for their kids, they use second-hand boxes for packing and pay for shipping by adding to the cost of the item. > > Insurance--they are retired, or get through their spouse. > > Also, everyone cherrypicks. In most fields dealers only pay 20-30 percent of the selling price for low cost items. And they pick up the stuff another dealer misses or has no market for. > > It is not unusual at a stamp show for highly knowledgeable collectors and dealers to raid other stands for items valued at a small fraction of their value. > > I know a baseball card collector and several coin collectors who will go to a show and buy from one dealer and sell to another and make all their costs, add to their collection and come home with hundreds and sometimes thousands in checks and cash. They have no stand! > > If this is your living and you raise a family, buy your own insurance and have employees, it is completely different. Especially if you only mark up an item 100%. Indian artifacts sell quickly ("turnover"), but if your inventory sells more slowly I cannot imagine a dealer paying more than $15-20 for an item that sells for $50 and staying in business full-time on their own. That is VERY generous! > > My 2/10 of a cent. stan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 06:57:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Fri Sep 6 05:57:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <20020902012555.IAX4223.fl-webmail01@fl-webmail01> <3D7396AD.AB257ECC@ptd.net> <3D73EAFB.F2AF1AB4@earthlink.net> <3D774405.1020002@ptd.net> <008101c254da$96ab2f00$3150fea9@win98> <00a001c2550a$ae4b4e80$1bae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <013b01c255a6$8abbf0e0$cbb24d0c@jade> Axel, So many people come up to me asking about healing powers of stones I am selling that I have info for them from the computer sites devoted to such. I straightforwardly tell them I know nothing more than what I have found on the interenet. Life is too short to waste time on deception or in trying to argue with someone else's belief system. For my part, I think most of the strength of any belief system is in the believing itself, not the object of that belief... maybe they do receive some healing by way of believing! Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axel Emmermann" To: Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 2:33 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out > I think that is a reasonable standpoint and I loved the "refund"... > > Somewhere in-between Captain Hook and Tinkerbell lies a broad gradient of > skepticism AND belief in Neverland. ;-D))))) > True, some people are just waiting to be exploited. True, they would buy > their crystals from another dealer is you wouldn't sell them. Is it OK to > sell "healing crystals" while you don't believe in them? I do not pretend > to have enough wisdom to make a Solomon's decision nor do I want to. > I do however think that one should give this issue some consideration before > engaging in the sale of such "healing stones". > > So, without accusation or blame, here's something to think about for us all, > including little ol' me: > > if one is not a "believer" and one sells crystals to those who are... is one > then any different from a quack selling "Doctor Jollybottom's Snake Oil"? > > Suppose that someone who really needs therapy comes to you instead of going > to a therapist. You sell that person an aquamarine because it is believed to > be, and I quote from a website http://www.sacredunion.net/ : calming, > soothing and alleviate fears and phobias. Actually, you sell him a tumbled > opaque fragment of an inferior beryl crystal that is slightly bluish-like > gray when you look at it under certain conditions... but hey, it's > affordable! (not YOU, of course! I mean some obscure dealer) Now, aside from > possible (temporary) "placebo" effects of relief... aren't you in fact > practicing medicine illegally? > If you look at it objectively: a human being is suffering from anguish and > explicitly asks you to provide him/her with a means to relieve the pain. > Means to relieve a physical or mental condition, isn't that the definition > of medicine? I think this is a valid standpoint, even if the affliction is > imaginary.. > > Silly, isn't it? > > I know, this is perhaps much ado about nothing but, from an "absolute frame > of reference", aren't we as a society slowly becoming numb when it come to > these every-day garden variety ethics? > > I wonder (and ponder) ... > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 07:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Fri Sep 6 06:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> Message-ID: <3D78AEA5.336244E2@earthlink.net> I look at the belief in stones, which is ancient, as the same as I view the other religious icons, crucifixes, statues, Kabala, books, and such. It is the personal belief of the individual. Maybe not my cup of tea, but they may certainly believe in it. walt From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 08:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Sep 6 07:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> Message-ID: <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> Hi Teresa, here's another "lengthy" one from the man of few words ;-))) | I feel similar to Walt. Why try to debunk another's belief? We have only | so much proven data on life to this moment in time. I have yet to see | many statements without two sides. I have just received a message from | Pala Gems with a recent challenge to a previously "proven" experiment | related to treating corundum to color change. It is rather interesting, | two scientific paths to an answer, and a challenge. I have no intention to debunk another's belief. I really don't, seriously. In fact, I would very much like to see that "proven" experiment. However much I respect another's belief, it must qualify as a belief before I can respect it. In discussions like these it is always the scientist who looses! Did you know that? And for a good reason too! It is always possible to prove that something exists IF it exists. Look at black holes... no one saw them before. In fact, they can't be seen, except for their influence on surrounding space and matter. Still, Einstein predicted them and Hawking determined what they are like. There is now proof for something hat is in fact invisible and immensely far away from us. On the other hand I could easily claim to know that hell DOES freeze over every summer of a leap year and NOBODY can prove that I'm wrong. You can try to persuade me that I'm wrong, you can argue that the idea is ridiculous but you cannot PROVE that I am wrong. This is, by the way, the reason that there is more than one religion on earth (I tread VERY causiously here ;-)... After all, if it were possible to disproof the existance of all non-existant gods there would be .... religion. (I refuse to hurt anyones religious feelings so fill in the dots for yourselves, will you?) I just try to say that you cannot distill a belief (which comes closer to "near religious" than I like to see) from what is NOT yet scientifically proven. False believes cannot be disproven. So you can believe litterally anything as long as it does not anchor in reality. The world is what we know and see. The wonder of life is often that what we see but don't yet know or understand. Building a belief on that unknown is like building your house on quicksand. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Over the past centuries till now, the realm of science has expanded, vigorously gobbling up the terrain of the mysticists... At this rate there will soon be only few important questions left unanswered. | I cannot prove nor disprove most which crosses my path. Beliefs in the | power of stones is far older than I, I have no knowledge to support | either side, so why judge what others believe? Unless a crystal dealer | is a true believer and speaks for himself, it is wrong to present a | specific mineral or crystal with powers that are not known to be true. I agree on both counts. It was after all merely "a thought" to chew on.... | I can create a piece of jewelry incorporating stones that are believed | to have certain properties. I will not sell it as having those | properties, for I don't know either way. Were a buyer with that belief | system come upon it, it is that buyers choice to buy or not buy. The | buyer knows what they are looking for, I do not and will not sell it as | anything but a designed piece. If it felt wrong, would you do it? I'm sure you wouldn't... There's no intentional exploitation here. Just economics. | I have no space in my life for those who have found the path for them | self and now believes that is the only path and I must take it. Do you feel like I do so? I recall expressing my feelings an thougths in a very general way. If that offended you I will gladly apologize to you. You must however understand that feelings are VERY strong on the side of the believers. The scientific side has less feelings and more facts. We therefore do not always see the weight of what we say and how it will cross over to the other side (of the crystal face? ;-D)))) A word that is uttered carelessly can be hurtful if it falls in sensitive ears. I've had that happen before. >snip | If someone believes strongly that a certain crystal has the power to | cure their cancer, and they have a sudden unexplained remission, does | anyone really know whether or not it did? Perhaps the belief system was | so strong that it was mind over matter, who can really say they know for | sure? People have been mysteriously cured of serious diseases at Lourdes, France, where the Virgin Mary is told to have appeared. They were saved by their belief is the generally accepted explanation. Now, is believing in the powers of crystal the same as having religious faith? The results are pretty similar if what you say is true... I dare not answer that one but it is what I meant before when I wrote : you cannot distill a belief (which comes closer to "near religious" than I like to see) from what is NOT yet scientifically proven, just because it's "open territory". | Tomorrow I will fly East to attend a surprise birthday party for my | brother, who last week had seeds of radiation implanted to rid him of | the cancer that has invaded his prostate. How very different is it | really, seeds of radiation, crystals? One is the belief system of | doctors, the other simply people through the ages with a belief in gifts | from the earth. Yes the doctors are using scientific methods to support | their belief, but this is recent. Who knows what will be proven later | down the line. I'm sorry to hear about your brother's sickness. I hope he recovers completely. Seed, radiation, crystal... those are all words that carry a heavy burden of "magic" connotation, don't they ;-) | I loved the analogy of the vivid colors of the stained glass windows, | what scientific methods were invoked to come to the belief in what | influence those colors will have on the congregation? Sensory deprivation. Test persons are put in special containers in which they float in a special solution at body temperature. They remain in absolute darkness and silence. After a period of complete disconnection from the world they come into a trance-like state and start to see geometric shapes, color flashes, hallucinations and so on... Funny thing is: most people see the same geometric figures that are found in cave drawings by African and Australian shamans. It seems to be a primordial pattern that resides in the brain of each of us. The colors of church windows or reflections of a crystal are merely means to facilitate a state of susceptibility that leads to trance. Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 08:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (bob stevens) Date: Fri Sep 6 07:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] dealers and profit Message-ID: <002101c255aa$ead62820$bee979a5@slc.edu> > > > This has been an interesting thread and I can see both sides but maybe > > lean toward Adam's point of view. > > There is a well known dealer who is retiring this year so he can enjoy > > his retirement in the southwest. His way of doing business seems to be to > > sell lots of minerals at reasonable prices and make up the difference in > > price by volume. At Tucson this year, I was about the hundredth person in > > the main show. I headed for this dealers booth and found I could hardly > get > > in for all the folks ahead of me. Other dealers did not have anyway near > > the numbers of collecters present in their booths. I have dealt with this > > man for years and feel bad I can't get nice specimens at reasonable > anymore. > > Also I will miss talking to him and his family. Well life goes on. > > My reason for rambling like this is to let dealers know that if you > sell > > specimens at reasonable prices to the mass of collecters then volume will > > more than make up the profit needed to survive as a business. Say a > > collecter finds some calcites and sells or trades some of them to a > dealer. > > If he puts a reasonable price on them and sells them, then he makes a > profit > > and moved his inventory. On the other hand if he marks the specimens way > up > > he may sell a small percentage of his stock and the rest sits in boxes to > be > > sold piece meal along the way. One of the only things I remember about > > economics is that you can sell a lot more at lower prices than at higher > > ones(look at Wal-Mart). Sometimes I think the greater the profit made on > a specimen the more the dealer can brag. But day end and day out the more > you sell the more you make. > > I agree that a specimen is worth what someone will pay for it. I feel > > that a lot more collecters would be willing to buy when a specimen is > > reasonably priced. > > > > PEACE > > > > Bob > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 08:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Sep 6 07:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <3D78AEA5.336244E2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005101c255b6$2e686e80$979e77d5@pandora.be> And that is the only sane way to look at it. Absolutely, Walt! Spiritual freedom is one of the basic human rights. But you speak of "other religious" icons... Does this mean that healing stones should be taken equally serious as say Catholicism or Shintoism (I am a terrible guy to talk to, I know ;-D))) Axel (the Devils Advocate ???) | I look at the belief in stones, which is ancient, as the same as I view the | other religious icons, crucifixes, statues, Kabala, books, and such. It is | the personal belief of the individual. Maybe not my cup of tea, but they | may certainly believe in it. | | walt | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 09:06:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Fri Sep 6 08:06:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses References: <131.136c4409.2aa9fc2f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D78C43D.83E3C01A@earthlink.net> Dave is right, many dealers do not like the others who are cheaper than they are. I know, I hear this a lot. You are ruining the market by making prices lower. Hell, the prices are going out of sight for both the dealer and the buyer. Remember, most dealers are buyers too. They don't all field collect. Of my specimens, when I go to China, Mexico or some other locality, I only collect a small percentage of them. The rest are purchased from dealers. We must watch the prices. Things are spiralling out of hand. prices are getting ridiculous. I am now paying in Mexico, prices which are higher than what I was selling for just a couple of years ago. Not whining, just stating fact. Walt BETDAV97@aol.com wrote: > Hi Group, > For my two cents, this sounds more like the way folks I know operate, > including myself. My wife supports my business and I'll admit it. Meeting > people and selling rocks is the fun part. But I'll never be rich. This has > been a very slow summer, thank goodness shows begin again this week > end, I'm just about out of money. I suppose I good raise my prices. But I > would rather move a lot of items than one or two; plus folks don't feel like > they are getting a deal. I discount an awful lot of minerals for folks, all > you > have to do is ask, I never turn down a reasonable request. I get criticized > by vendors from the DC area, because my specimens are so cheap, but > sometimes by searching around, I get really good buys and just pass the > good deal along to my customers. Sometimes I make bad deals like North > Carolina amethyst or Colombian emeralds, these I am taking a loss on, > because they are just sitting there at the prices I have on them. At the next > > show they will be heavily discountd and I will be taking a loss. But they > will > be going out the door. Criticism is welcome and let's get back to talking > rocks; > I've used the delete buttom a lot this week. The rock business is in bad > shape > due to high prices at Tucson and other places, it is time the pendulum swung > the other way. > David S. Phillips > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 09:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Fri Sep 6 08:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D78C5A4.45F3C177@earthlink.net> Axel You cannot prove a negative belief. Correct. However, alll religion seems founded on UNfounded beliefs. I have learned long ago not to argue with people's beliefs. The more unfounded, the more vocal and emotional are the beliefs and the less rational the believer. Walt Axel Emmermann wrote: > Hi Teresa, > > here's another "lengthy" one from the man of few words ;-))) > > | I feel similar to Walt. Why try to debunk another's belief? We have only > | so much proven data on life to this moment in time. I have yet to see > | many statements without two sides. I have just received a message from > | Pala Gems with a recent challenge to a previously "proven" experiment > | related to treating corundum to color change. It is rather interesting, > | two scientific paths to an answer, and a challenge. > > I have no intention to debunk another's belief. I really don't, seriously. > In fact, I would very much like to see > that "proven" experiment. > However much I respect another's belief, it must qualify as a belief before > I can respect it. > > In discussions like these it is always the scientist who looses! Did you > know that? > And for a good reason too! It is always possible to prove that something > exists IF it exists. Look at black holes... no one saw them before. In fact, > they can't be seen, except for their influence on surrounding space and > matter. Still, Einstein predicted them and Hawking determined what they are > like. There is now proof for something hat is in fact invisible and > immensely far away from us. > On the other hand I could easily claim to know that hell DOES freeze over > every summer of a leap year and NOBODY can prove that I'm wrong. You can try > to persuade me that I'm wrong, you can argue that the idea is ridiculous but > you cannot PROVE that I am wrong. This is, by the way, the reason that there > is more than one religion on earth (I tread VERY causiously here ;-)... > After all, if it were possible to disproof the existance of all non-existant > gods there would be .... religion. (I refuse to hurt anyones religious > feelings so fill in the dots for yourselves, will you?) > > I just try to say that you cannot distill a belief (which comes closer to > "near religious" than I like to see) from what is NOT yet scientifically > proven. False believes cannot be disproven. So you can believe litterally > anything as long as it does not anchor in reality. > The world is what we know and see. The wonder of life is often that what we > see > but don't yet know or understand. Building a belief on that unknown is like > building your house on quicksand. > Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Over the past centuries till now, > the realm of science has expanded, vigorously gobbling up the terrain of the > mysticists... At this rate there will soon be only few important questions > left unanswered. > > | I cannot prove nor disprove most which crosses my path. Beliefs in the > | power of stones is far older than I, I have no knowledge to support > | either side, so why judge what others believe? Unless a crystal dealer > | is a true believer and speaks for himself, it is wrong to present a > | specific mineral or crystal with powers that are not known to be true. > > I agree on both counts. It was after all merely "a thought" to chew on.... > > | I can create a piece of jewelry incorporating stones that are believed > | to have certain properties. I will not sell it as having those > | properties, for I don't know either way. Were a buyer with that belief > | system come upon it, it is that buyers choice to buy or not buy. The > | buyer knows what they are looking for, I do not and will not sell it as > | anything but a designed piece. > > If it felt wrong, would you do it? I'm sure you wouldn't... There's no > intentional exploitation here. Just economics. > > | I have no space in my life for those who have found the path for them > | self and now believes that is the only path and I must take it. > > Do you feel like I do so? I recall expressing my feelings an thougths in a > very general way. If that offended you I will gladly apologize to you. You > must however understand that feelings are VERY strong on the side of the > believers. The scientific side has less feelings and more facts. We > therefore do not always see the weight of what we say and how it will cross > over to the other side (of the crystal face? ;-D)))) > A word that is uttered carelessly can be hurtful if it falls in sensitive > ears. I've had that happen before. > > >snip > > | If someone believes strongly that a certain crystal has the power to > | cure their cancer, and they have a sudden unexplained remission, does > | anyone really know whether or not it did? Perhaps the belief system was > | so strong that it was mind over matter, who can really say they know for > | sure? > > People have been mysteriously cured of serious diseases at Lourdes, France, > where the Virgin Mary is told to have appeared. They were saved by their > belief is the generally accepted explanation. Now, is believing in the > powers of crystal the same as having religious faith? The results are pretty > similar if what you say is true... I dare not answer that one but it is what > I meant before when I wrote : you cannot distill a belief (which comes > closer to "near religious" than I like to see) from what is NOT yet > scientifically proven, just because it's "open territory". > > | Tomorrow I will fly East to attend a surprise birthday party for my > | brother, who last week had seeds of radiation implanted to rid him of > | the cancer that has invaded his prostate. How very different is it > | really, seeds of radiation, crystals? One is the belief system of > | doctors, the other simply people through the ages with a belief in gifts > | from the earth. Yes the doctors are using scientific methods to support > | their belief, but this is recent. Who knows what will be proven later > | down the line. > > I'm sorry to hear about your brother's sickness. I hope he recovers > completely. > Seed, radiation, crystal... those are all words that carry a heavy burden of > "magic" connotation, don't they ;-) > > | I loved the analogy of the vivid colors of the stained glass windows, > | what scientific methods were invoked to come to the belief in what > | influence those colors will have on the congregation? > > Sensory deprivation. Test persons are put in special containers in which > they float in a special solution at body temperature. They remain in > absolute darkness and silence. After a period of complete disconnection from > the world they come into a trance-like state and start to see geometric > shapes, color flashes, hallucinations and so on... > Funny thing is: most people see the same geometric figures that are found in > cave drawings by African and Australian shamans. It seems to be a primordial > pattern that resides in the brain of each of us. > The colors of church windows or reflections of a crystal are merely means to > facilitate a state of susceptibility that leads to trance. > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 09:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Fri Sep 6 08:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <3D78AEA5.336244E2@earthlink.net> <005101c255b6$2e686e80$979e77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D78C698.21544400@earthlink.net> Axel Does this mean that healing stones should be taken equally serious as say Catholicism or Shintoism (I am a terrible guy to talk to, I know ;-D))) Sure, why not? Why should we discriminate against the Wiccans or pagans or whomever more than the Baptists or the Anglicans or?????? I would say that the belief in stones is right up there with many other beliefs. Many so called christians have strong superstitions, stones included, which are not of a religious nature. Let'm have the belief. Doesn't hurt me any. Walt Axel Emmermann wrote: > And that is the only sane way to look at it. Absolutely, Walt! Spiritual > freedom is one of the basic human rights. > But you speak of "other religious" icons... Does this mean that healing > stones should be taken equally serious as say Catholicism or Shintoism (I am > a terrible guy to talk to, I know ;-D))) > > Axel (the Devils Advocate ???) > > | I look at the belief in stones, which is ancient, as the same as I view > the > | other religious icons, crucifixes, statues, Kabala, books, and such. It is > | the personal belief of the individual. Maybe not my cup of tea, but they > | may certainly believe in it. > | > | walt > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 09:19:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM) Date: Fri Sep 6 08:19:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> Axel, The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not about what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I believe for the most part we all decry the chosen marketing scheme of taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a specific item because of their belief in its properties. Our love of the stone for its beauty is affronted by those who attach mystical properties to it and grossly overprice it to their financial benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success of that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at considerably less to collectors not of the same mindset. Bottom line is that seller is a fad following opportunist lacking a conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business ventures. We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen. They just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts about them. I am off this topic now. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 10:36:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Fri Sep 6 09:36:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> Message-ID: <015e01c255c3$ae53b3e0$3150fea9@win98> Teresa please.... > The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not = about > what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of > ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I > believe for the most part we all decry (strongly disapprove of) the = chosen marketing scheme of > taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a specific > item because of their belief in its properties (uniqueness or beauty). > Our love of the stone for its beauty (properties) is affronted by = those who attach > mystical properties (or scientific data) to it and grossly overprice = it to their financial > benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success of > that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at > considerably less to collectors (of all kinds and for all reasons or = beliefs) not of the same mindset. > Bottom line is that (all sellers are) fad following opportunist = lacking a > conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business = ventures. > We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen. They > just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts = about > them. Are our beliefs shaped by our experiences, or do we merely experience = what we believe? Which comes first, the scientific data or the belief that the scientific = data exists? With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 10:40:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Fri Sep 6 09:40:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> In an effort to distract you from the current (barely on topic) discussion of healing stones and religion-bashing, I would like to ask your help in identifying an interesting find that I made recently at a location near the Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. I went there looking for fluorite (my favorite mineral) and although I found some nice small fluorite crystals in red fluorescing calcite, the most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter. In normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce. In just looking at the crystal form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the fluorescence has me puzzled. They spray is too small and delicate to do any tests on so I would like to get your input based on experience with other specimens that you might be familiar with. Does anyone know of blue fluorescing beryl or apatite crystals? or other hexagonal minerals that would yield that fluorescence.? This locality has a very complex mineralogy with different veins yielding scheelite, fluorite in calcite, topaz, grossular garnet and I even think emerald has been claimed from there. As an aside I also believe I found a similar blue fluorescing clear hexagonal crystal a few years ago in the Morgan Pit (adjacent to the Harvard Quarry) in Greenwood, ME. I currently am trying to find it to check it again. Thus if you can help me out with some information you may actually help me identify two specimens (leaving only several hundred more mysteries for the future). Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. Best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:00:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:00:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Message-ID: My own belief system is to allow others to believe as they want. Thus, ... > I believe for the most part we all decry > (strongly disapprove of) the chosen marketing > scheme of taking absolute advantage of a > person who is simply buying a specific > item because of their belief in its > properties (uniqueness or beauty). > Our love of the stone for its beauty > (properties) is affronted by those who attach > mystical properties (or scientific data) ... Note to all this, that while everyone believes that beauty is in the eye of the behold, so is "healing properties." Just why does one even *buy* something that looks nice? (Because it makes them feel good. Even investments.) If you feel good, that in itself has healing properties. And yes, there's been plenty of scientific evidence to back that up. (The only problem is when this technique is used in lieu of all else.) Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:15:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (artweinle) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:15:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? In-Reply-To: <015e01c255c3$ae53b3e0$3150fea9@win98> Message-ID: on 9/6/02 12:37 PM, Stuart Schmitt at sos@ipa.net wrote: Stuart, et al: Human beings are relatively unique among living things in their ability to believe in a supernatural AND in our desire to figure out how we got here and how the Earth got to be this way. We are even concerned with our own family trees, insignificant though they are when seen in the light of the history of the Earth. These beliefs/concerns/curiousities overlap in many ways. Philosophy, religion, art and science are four different ways of knowing/learning about what is around us. > > Are our beliefs shaped by our experiences, or do we merely experience what we > believe? This is a question which bears on philosophy, religion, art and even science (to some degree). Since it can be approached in any one of these ways, and since these methods can easily be viewed as independent of each other, there's no "answer". > > Which comes first, the scientific data or the belief that the scientific data > exists? This question is different. Either the data exists or it doesn't. The real question is whether you believe that the scientific approach can provide an answer which you can live with. It is, for example, silly to go about a scientific investigation of crystal power if you're already a believer in the power of the crystal -- the probability of your investigation turning up data that will reduce or eliminate your belief is extremely small. You can't assume that crystal power exists, then try to use science to prove it, because you are making an assumption that science cannot test. This does not imply that because science cannot test it, it must be wrong or nonexistent. You can believe just about anything; new beliefs can develop with little or no effort or thinking. Science is strongly limited to repeatable evidence (observations) from the natural world, and often requires great effort and time to produce new understandings. The only belief involved is that the scientific approach to understanding our surroundings can produce useful knowledge, and is therefore worth studying and using as ONE of your approaches to life--when it's appropriate. The others can have their place, too, without conflict. It was difficult to be scientific upon the death of my father, for example. I believe that most of us are some kind of mixture of all four of these approaches, and our outward behavior is guided by each of them at various times/situations. Despite the fact that I am a career science teacher, this statement (first sentence in this paragraph) is NOT scientific because there's no repeatable natural evidence to support it. Crystals are cool regardless of the approach you use. Let's keep finding and distributing them! Art ====================== > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:23:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catspaw Minerals) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:23:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: Nate... Are you sure you haven't found some scheelite? That location is famous for it, and the blue-while fl. is what it shines... GcB From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:28:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:28:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: Message-ID: <018001c255ca$f2259820$3150fea9@win98> Hi Art, Thanks for your input. I believe I would like to donate some crystals to you for your science class to explore. Please send me your address off line and let me know how many students might need a crystal. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Pete Richards) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: Apatite from Ohio fluoresces bright blue or yellow-white under LWUV, depending if it is colorless or brownish in color. Apatite from Mont Saint-Hilaire is listed as showing bluish fluorescence, weak, under SWUV and pinkish-blue fluorescence under LWUV. Pete Richards -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:35:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Pete Richards) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:35:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: Scheelite is VERY unlikely to form elongated hexagonal prisms! Pete >Nate... > >Are you sure you haven't found some scheelite? That location is famous for >it, and the blue-while fl. is what it shines... > >GcB > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 11:39:06 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catspaw Minerals) Date: Fri Sep 6 10:39:06 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yeh, I kind of though about that after I sent it out. Not enough cafine . Do you have a scan of the xtl? gcb -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Pete Richards Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 12:35 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms Scheelite is VERY unlikely to form elongated hexagonal prisms! Pete From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 12:24:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 11:24:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: New CD and mineral book, Charles Palache Message-ID: <156.13a2100d.2aaa4c88@aol.com> There's a new audio CD and book available containing a lecture about minerals by world-famous mineralogist, Charles Palache (1869-1954). The lecture was given on May 5, 1942 to the New jersey Mineralogical Society. Many members of the New York Mineralogical Club were present. The lecture has been remastered and is a great talk about minerals, people, historical events, etc. Localities for which anecdotes are given include: Cornwall and Mendip Hills, England, Leadhills, Scotland, Tintic District, Utah, Tonopah, Nevada, Chuquicamata, Chile, Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia, Tsumeb, Namibia, Mammoth mine, Tiger, Arizona, Franklin-Ogdensburg, New Jersey, and others. The CD and book is a benefit for the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. See some of the minerals pictured in the book and read more about the lecture. Palache CD www.geocities.com/mainemininghistorygs/CD Best Regards, Van --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 12:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Sep 6 11:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> Message-ID: <003101c255d4$3e8f4680$979e77d5@pandora.be> Yes Teresa, it drifted towards belief and got somewhat off topic. I'll take the blame for that! I tried to express my view on why people believe in these things without realizing (or better: completely understanding) that some of us collect and trade from that standpoint. It was to be expected that this was potent stuff... didn't see that coming but still... some nice thoughts were exchanged and I feel I understand the subject better now. Thank you all. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "TAM" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | Axel, | The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not about | what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of | ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I | believe for the most part we all decry the chosen marketing scheme of | taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a specific | item because of their belief in its properties. | | Our love of the stone for its beauty is affronted by those who attach | mystical properties to it and grossly overprice it to their financial | benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success of | that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at | considerably less to collectors not of the same mindset. | | Bottom line is that seller is a fad following opportunist lacking a | conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business ventures. | We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen. They | just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts about | them. | | I am off this topic now. | Teresa | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 12:35:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Fri Sep 6 11:35:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: <3D78F52D.8A61C29C@earthlink.net> Nathan: Beg to differ with you. It is nto religion bashing. No one has stated that any religion is incorrect. As to being on topic, it is about crystals and the associated beliefs. I find that very much on topic, if not to every one's liking. It is as with your post. Not all people are interested in flouresence. It is a topic which is perhaps of interest to a minority of the collectors. I don't know. Just different strokes. In answer to your question, I have some apatite from Mexico that fluoresced a light green, Not blue. Can't help you with these. Not aragonite? Walt "Nathan C. Martin II" wrote: > In an effort to distract you from the current (barely on topic) discussion > of healing stones and religion-bashing, I would like to ask your help in > identifying an interesting find that I made recently at a location near the > Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. > > I went there looking for fluorite (my favorite mineral) and although I > found some nice small fluorite crystals in red fluorescing calcite, the > most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms > with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter. In > normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet > they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce. In just looking at the crystal > form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the > fluorescence has me puzzled. They spray is too small and delicate to do > any tests on so I would like to get your input based on experience with > other specimens that you might be familiar with. > > Does anyone know of blue fluorescing beryl or apatite crystals? or other > hexagonal minerals that would yield that fluorescence.? > > This locality has a very complex mineralogy with different veins yielding > scheelite, fluorite in calcite, topaz, grossular garnet and I even think > emerald has been claimed from there. > > As an aside I also believe I found a similar blue fluorescing clear > hexagonal crystal a few years ago in the Morgan Pit (adjacent to the > Harvard Quarry) in Greenwood, ME. I currently am trying to find it to > check it again. Thus if you can help me out with some information you may > actually help me identify two specimens (leaving only several hundred more > mysteries for the future). > > Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. > > Best regards, > > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 12:48:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Derek) Date: Fri Sep 6 11:48:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> <015e01c255c3$ae53b3e0$3150fea9@win98> Message-ID: <001b01c255ef$0ddf06e0$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3> I've been trying to avoid jumping in here but I just can't do it any longer. It was the "Scientific Data" that got me. I know this will devolve on me badly, but here goes. Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet we base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of them that we've managed to invent in recent years. We have many postulates that suggest that there is much, like "dark matter", that we cannot perceive but yet exists. Science IS a belief system based exclusively on the extensions of our senses and the conceptions of our brains. But humans are very limited beings with perception based only on observations taken from the surface of, or very near one minor planet in a minor solar system. There has got to be a lot more out there than may ever be found by us. We know that yet we always come back to the proof being based on the evidence of our own senses. I do not embrace the metaphysical properties of rocks. I do not sell based on that either. On the other hand, one of the folks who believes that there is power there, pointed out once that the electrical force, the atomic force, that helps form a crystal is still in that crystal. If some would like to believe this, that is their belief system. Oh well.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Schmitt" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Teresa please.... > The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not about > what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of > ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I > believe for the most part we all decry (strongly disapprove of) the chosen marketing scheme of > taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a specific > item because of their belief in its properties (uniqueness or beauty). > Our love of the stone for its beauty (properties) is affronted by those who attach > mystical properties (or scientific data) to it and grossly overprice it to their financial > benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success of > that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at > considerably less to collectors (of all kinds and for all reasons or beliefs) not of the same mindset. > Bottom line is that (all sellers are) fad following opportunist lacking a > conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business ventures. > We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen. They > just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts about > them. Are our beliefs shaped by our experiences, or do we merely experience what we believe? Which comes first, the scientific data or the belief that the scientific data exists? With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 12:53:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD) Date: Fri Sep 6 11:53:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rocks & Science Message-ID: <08b901c255d6$f95a4440$c219ef41@uswest.net> WooHoo!! Stuart hit the nail on the head! Do we believe in the scientific data = or the belief that the scientific data exists? Interesting philosophy that could have had us all burned at the stake = 500 years ago, or laughed out of the scientific community in 1890. This = current thread is the basis of philosophy that originated with the = Greek, Zoroastrian, and Taoist teachers many thousands of years ago. It = is a pleasant diversion from the scientific examination of mineral = collecting and we must remember that the esoteric attraction to stones = is the oldest history. We like the color, shape, size, and feeling of = the stones, and our natural imagination delights in the opportunity. I was born a scientist and the very basis of my collecting of gems, = minerals, and fossils, is the enlightenment of re-evaluating scientific = principles. Part of that learning is to understand the power of change, = that it appears every atomic particle that makes up every life form, = including me, this planet and everything on it, our solar system, our = galaxy, etc., has been used at least two times before. By used I mean = galaxies formed, matured, and expired, and reformed again to mature and = expire. But the atomic structure continues on to recalculate it's basic = job to create solid matter from non solid material. =20 So to go back to me--I am basically a small but complex unit of = minerals on a big round globe of minerals. And the moment to moment = recreation of everything I see and understand, as far a the Hubble will = take me, is a constant joy. I have worked in almost every area of mineral and fossil collecting = and as a teacher and interpreter of the science I have an idea of what = stimulates the interest in "rocks." I listen carefully to children and = to those who are after the healing powers as well as to my fellow = scientists and teaching colleagues. A pretty rock is a treasure to a = five year old, a polished rose quartz may help a troubled person get = through the night, and a spectacular golden barite cluster I found two = weeks ago in Montana delights me. =20 This is one of the few disciplines and areas of collecting in the = world that has room for people of all interests and experience. I don't = happen to be a specific believer in the esoteric meaning of stones, but = sometimes I say, ah, the rocks were here first, and we are made up of = rocks, so maybe they invented us so they could move around. Danny Steward / Seattle --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 13:14:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (kris murray) Date: Fri Sep 6 12:14:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents In-Reply-To: <3D78F52D.8A61C29C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8AA0D165-C1CC-11D6-8FD1-0050E4FA984A@mac.com> I have a question someone may have an answer to, actually its a situation someone may help me out of..... I was at a 'flourite mine' and found tons of flourite, one piece weighed over 150lbs and some was in plates measuring better than 12" across and 1.5" thick. The bad part was that every mineral was covered in a red slightly red translucent stuff. I think to myself, hmmm, rust. Must use acid to remove. So I went down to my local rock shop and got some acid (I forget which type) and set to soaking and brushing with toothbrushes. ( I threw some dirty zeolites in there too just for fun) and what happened was that the reed coating on the flourite dissappeard and was replaced by a white deposit which was more opaque! Gasp! Dangit! So I took the big piece in to be sphered and now I have pretty clear to purple to sea green flourite with an ugly semi-opaque white coating on it. Did my zeolites transfer? Did I remove the supposed iron deposit only to discover a pitted and even rougher flourite surface that is more restrictive to light penetration and thus looking more opaque? Obviously I must go get more big pieces of flourite (next June, wanna come? Just me and the missus and maybe some cousins to help with labor). BUt other than that my huge plates i would like to display but now they are ugly. i would like to know how to or get ideas on how to fix my problem or also how to remove red coating without a similar mishap. i do still have a few smaller 1lb pieces left to experiment with. Thanks all! - Kris Murray From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 13:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (kris murray) Date: Fri Sep 6 12:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] pyrite fossil Message-ID: a while back a bough a pyrite fossil specimen in which the ouside of this pyrite bubble was pyrite and the inside a shale or basalt atht contained fossils and now the pyrite is oxidzing, going like more than dull like retro-morphing or something? any suggestions? Kris Murray --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 13:51:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 12:51:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Message-ID: <5b.2d8f44a5.2aaa6100@aol.com> In a message dated 9/6/02 11:49:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, stoneage@vermontel.net writes: > > Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? > We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet > we > base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of > them that we've managed to invent in recent years. I can't think of one nonsensory way to examine the world. If I'm not using my senses the only other way is through meditation, thought, or logic. Am I missing something? Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 14:08:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Fri Sep 6 13:08:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] pyrite fossil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Much marcasite, and, to a lesser extent, pyrite will do this. I'd try a good bath in household ammonia (in a well ventilated area) to neutralize the acidic materials being formed, and then try coating it with a clear lacquer to seal the fossil away from the air, water, and hungry microbes. I find it is really hard to save these once they have begun to alter. Hope it works out. - Best wishes - Bill Cordua >a while back a bough a pyrite fossil specimen in which the ouside of >this pyrite bubble was pyrite and the inside a shale or basalt atht >contained fossils and now the pyrite is oxidzing, going like >more than dull like retro-morphing or something? any suggestions? >Kris Murray > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 14:22:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 13:22:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses Message-ID: <6B47208B.7BE79A50.02180873@aol.com> No doubt about it. Sell at a lower price if the junk doesn't sell. Give customers a reason to come back (most of my business is repeat business). Get fair prices, Stay solvent.. that is what it is all about. In a message dated Fri, 6 Sep 2002 7:40:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, BETDAV97 writes: > > > Hi Group, > For my two cents, this sounds more like the way folks I know operate, > including myself. My wife supports my business and I'll admit it. Meeting > people and selling rocks is the fun part. But I'll never be rich. This has > been a very slow summer, thank goodness shows begin again this week > end, I'm just about out of money. I suppose I good raise my prices. But I > would rather move a lot of items than one or two; plus folks don't feel like > they are getting a deal. I discount an awful lot of minerals for folks, all > you > have to do is ask, I never turn down a reasonable request. I get criticized > by vendors from the DC area, because my specimens are so cheap, but > sometimes by searching around, I get really good buys and just pass the > good deal along to my customers. Sometimes I make bad deals like North > Carolina amethyst or Colombian emeralds, these I am taking a loss on, > because they are just sitting there at the prices I have on them. At the next > > show they will be heavily discountd and I will be taking a loss. But they > will > be going out the door. Criticism is welcome and let's get back to talking > rocks; > I've used the delete buttom a lot this week. The rock business is in bad > shape > due to high prices at Tucson and other places, it is time > the pendulum swung > the other way. > David S. Phillips > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 14:29:09 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 13:29:09 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out Message-ID: <76EC6606.35A03E78.02180873@aol.com> I'm with Walt here, but let us not forget that when I started this thread it was not so much a comment on the fact that some people believe that rocks have healing power. Or that others like my wife are sceptical but say "How can it hurt to wear a bracelet to the doctor's office?" What I found amazing was that someone had figured out a way to get paid for dirt!!!!!!!! In a message dated Fri, 6 Sep 2002 8:33:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > > I look at the belief in stones, which is ancient, as the same as I view the > other religious icons, crucifixes, statues, Kabala, books, and such. It is > the personal belief of the individual. Maybe not my cup of > tea, but they > may certainly believe in it. > > walt > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 14:34:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 13:34:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms Message-ID: <48A8290D.7FB505AA.02180873@aol.com> Scheelite?!! It is as classic locality. I have some too. They are beautiful Gene Hartstein Newark, DE In a message dated Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:35:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, nmartin@bbn.com writes: > > > In an effort to distract you from the current (barely on topic) discussion > of healing stones and religion-bashing, I would like to ask your help in > identifying an interesting find that I made recently at a location near the > Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. > > I went there looking for fluorite (my favorite mineral) and although I > found some nice small fluorite crystals in red fluorescing calcite, the > most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms > with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter. In > normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet > they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce. In just looking at the crystal > form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the > fluorescence has me puzzled. They spray is too small and delicate to do > any tests on so I would like to get your input based on experience with > other specimens that you might be familiar with. > > Does anyone know of blue fluorescing beryl or apatite crystals? or other > hexagonal minerals that would yield that fluorescence.? > > This locality has a very complex mineralogy with different veins yielding > scheelite, fluorite in calcite, topaz, grossular garnet and I even think > emerald has been claimed from there. > > As an aside I also believe I found a similar blue fluorescing clear > hexagonal crystal a few years ago in the Morgan Pit (adjacent to the > Harvard Quarry) in Greenwood, ME. I currently am trying to find it to > check it again. Thus if you can help me out with some information you may > actually help me identify two specimens (leaving only > several hundred more > mysteries for the future). > > Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. > > Best regards, > > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 14:51:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Fri Sep 6 13:51:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906163750.029824e0@po2.bbn.com> Pete, You are quite correct that these specimens cannot possibly be scheelite. Not only does the crystal shape rule that out but the fluorescence is nothing like that of the scheelite from this locality. I'm still hoping that the fluorescent collectors on the list can provide some alternative suggestions to consider. Thanks to everyone who has offered a suggestion thus far. Nate Martin At 01:34 PM 9/6/2002, you wrote: >Scheelite is VERY unlikely to form elongated hexagonal prisms! > >Pete > > > >Nate... > > > >Are you sure you haven't found some scheelite? That location is famous for > >it, and the blue-while fl. is what it shines... > > > >GcB > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >R. Peter Richards >rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu > >Mineral collector >Crystallographer >SHAPE for the Macintosh > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 15:11:59 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Sep 6 14:11:59 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? In-Reply-To: <001b01c255ef$0ddf06e0$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3> Message-ID: No Science is based on reproducible results, someone makes a hypothesis, they or someone else tests this postulate, and other people can reproduce the tests and get the same results. That is science. Cosmology is obviously darn limited in experimental tests since it can be difficult to reproduce the big bang in the lab. But they try by using astronomical observations. But this hypothesis-test-retest sequence is what is absent from the crystal power-pyramid power and that whole pack of antiscientific people. But science and engineering can work with the whole range of the electromagnetic spectra we are hardly limited to what we can personally sense. Dark matter and energy are just constructs being used to try to salvage a scientific cosmological model and personally I'm not all that convinced that there is a lot of value in mystery substances. There are other evolving models that require no mysterious constructs. Bryan -----Original Message----- Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet we base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of them that we've managed to invent in recent years. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 15:22:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Sep 6 14:22:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out In-Reply-To: <3D78C698.21544400@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Its one thing to let them have their beliefs, and another to play to their credulous stupidity. A prime example is putting crystals on a disguised hotplate, taking the warm crystal and handing it to the sucker and saying: "Here can you FEEL the power in this crystal!" After hearing about this practice I've spotted it once or twice at craft shows, not rock shows. Bryan -----Original Message----- Sure, why not? Why should we discriminate against the Wiccans or pagans or whomever more than the Baptists or the Anglicans or?????? I would say that the belief in stones is right up there with many other beliefs. Many so called christians have strong superstitions, stones included, which are not of a religious nature. Let'm have the belief. Doesn't hurt me any. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 15:30:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 14:30:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out Message-ID: >A prime example is putting > crystals on a disguised > hotplate, taking the warm crystal and handing > it to the sucker and saying: > "Here can you FEEL the power in this crystal!" Costs lots of money at spas today. :-) Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 15:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Derek) Date: Fri Sep 6 14:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Human input. References: <5b.2d8f44a5.2aaa6100@aol.com> Message-ID: <003101c25608$45f50d90$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3> Yes, Grant. I think you are missing something. Missing is the realization that all that exists may not be perceivable by human senses. In fact I would guess that the vast amount of existence is not humanly understandable. We may catch glimmerings and more glimmerings. That's what has happened with scientific discovery over the years. That which was impossible became commonplace. But why would we possibly think that everything that can exist, and I'm using fairly simple terminology here, only exists within the realm of human senses to record? Surely with all the vastness of possibility out there in the universe, there are other "senses" if you will. I'm not saying I know what they are. I'm saying that it seems unlikely that we, homo sapiens sapiens, can be all knowing and all seeing, to steal a phrase from another context. If we can't, then we must assume that we have huge limitations. So we must speculate and not assume a homocentric universe. Perhaps meditation, logic, thought and imagination can help. Personnally I only use the latter three, however even they have vast limitations because they depend on the same observability as the senses. I guess I would have to say that thinking between the spaces about what is not expressed in our accustomed ways is more profitable. What I mean is we tend to think about the observable. We think about what we see. What are we not observing? What seems to be missing? Why is there no Unified Theory? Because there is much missing? Why are there objects that some believe seem to date before the big bang? Because there is much missing. Why do we think we can possibly know everything from this little backwater corner of the Universe? Derek ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? > In a message dated 9/6/02 11:49:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > stoneage@vermontel.net writes: > > > > > > Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? > > We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet > > we > > base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of > > them that we've managed to invent in recent years. > > I can't think of one nonsensory way to examine the world. If I'm not using my > senses the only other way is through meditation, thought, or logic. Am I > missing something? > > Grant > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 16:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 15:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Human input. Message-ID: <15e.1371fa96.2aaa80ca@aol.com> In a message dated 9/6/02 2:48:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stoneage@vermontel.net writes: > Yes, Grant. I think you are missing something. Missing is the realization > that all that exists may not be perceivable by human senses. In fact I > would > guess that the vast amount of existence is not humanly understandable. This is my last comment on the subject, but........... If there is no way I can know about 'IT' and 'IT' cannot be understood by me or another human --there is no point in considering 'IT.' Something that exist but can not be precieved by my senses and is not understood by my brain does not exist. I'm not going down that road. Enjoy your trip. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 16:13:10 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 15:13:10 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out Message-ID: <153.13a3968f.2aaa8259@aol.com> In a message dated 9/5/02 11:30:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > if one is not a "believer" and one sells crystals to those who are... is one > then any different from a quack selling "Doctor Jollybottom's Snake Oil"? > I've got a friend who is a silversmith. He is not a Christian, in fact, he is a Jewish atheist. However, he makes and sells silver crosses for people who want them. I'll have to tell him to cut it out since that makes him a quack. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 16:21:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 15:21:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/5/02 10:46:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes: > These things are deductable, but you do not recoup all of the amount. > 100,000 of > deductions will only yeild a savings on taxes of approximately 20,000. Hey, I thought you were from California? How fast they forget when they are east of the Colorado River. Don't forget the 13% of bottom line income that goes to Sacramento. Grant Stuck in Chico, CA with State Income Tax. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 16:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 15:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) Message-ID: In a message dated 9/5/02 10:43:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time, uvbob@epix.net writes: > > If a dealer whacks the customer for the above mentioned and more > "expenses" then he cannot use them as a tax write-off any way. > Right????? That would be double dipping I think. > > Just a thought. > Bob > Bob, The dealer adds them into his price, the deducts them from his unadjusted gross income, to find his Adjusted Gross Income. Tax rate is based on AGI. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 17:02:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis) Date: Fri Sep 6 16:02:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <5b.2d8f44a5.2aaa6100@aol.com> Message-ID: <009101c255fb$15a851e0$778d4d0c@jade> Grant, <<"I can't think of one nonsensory way to examine the world. If I'm not using my senses the only other way is through meditation, thought, or logic. Am I missing something?">> While you are meditating, hold a crystal in each hand, then even if you don't come up with any scientific discoveries, you might feel better anyway Jane :^) Bryan, <<"......But this hypothesis-test-retest sequence is what is absent from the crystal power-pyramid power and that whole pack of antiscientific people.">> WOW! Are you sure thay are all anti-scientific people? Now you verge on the topic of creationism versus evolution. Maybe the crystal-power-focus people are more rightly ascientific (should there be such a word). Jane :^) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? > In a message dated 9/6/02 11:49:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > stoneage@vermontel.net writes: > > > > > > Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? > > We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet > > we > > base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of > > them that we've managed to invent in recent years. > > I can't think of one nonsensory way to examine the world. If I'm not using my > senses the only other way is through meditation, thought, or logic. Am I > missing something? > > Grant > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 20:16:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Sep 6 19:16:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] pyrite fossil Message-ID: <38.2daa8eb5.2aaabb2a@aol.com> This is a very tough one. Not much you can do and be sure of the result. Try to clean it, soak in ammonia to neutralize the acid and then set it in a rinse bath for a few days to leach out the salts. Then dry for several more days till it is good and dry. Then coat with Butvar. It may or may not work but this is your best shot.. Pyrite disease is tough to treat on fossils. The best thing you can do in the future is to store such specimens in low and constant relative humidity. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 9/6/2002 3:18:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kriswmurray1@mac.com writes: > a while back a bough a pyrite fossil specimen in which the ouside of > this pyrite bubble was pyrite and the inside a shale or basalt atht > contained fossils and now the pyrite is oxidzing, going like > more than dull like retro-morphing or something? any suggestions? > Kris Murray --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Sep 6 21:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Fri Sep 6 20:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses In-Reply-To: <3D78A530.5E7CCB08@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Walt, I volunteer at the Denver Show each year and have done some security shifts. One of the things that we watch for are people/dealers trying to sell stuff out of their vehicles in the parking lot. This is against the rules so we chase them off if we catch them. I don't know about people trying to sell to other dealers within the building. I have never seen anyone try to do that. But I'm sure it's against the rules at the Denver Show too. Like you said, give them your card and meet them later. Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S. Bowser Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:53 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses Stan: You make some good points. There are many people who come to shows and buy and sell with no expense because they do not rent spaces. Is this fair to those who do rent?? I have people coming to me all the time at shows with offers of materials to sell or trade. One individual even tried to selll me back some stuff he had bought from me at last years show. I have put out dollars for a space and consider this unfair competition. If I go to a show and see a dealer who has materials similar to mine and want to sell him stuff, I leave my card, tell him to stop by after the show and then hope he comes by. To sell at a show where one has not purchased space would appear to be unethical. I am not talking about a guy who has one or two things from his grandfather's collection, I am talking about guys who come to the shows just to buy and sell without having space rented, Walt Stan Raugh wrote: > I have NO real experience with selling rock, minerals and fossils, but know many dealers in Indian artifacts and some of the many dozens of other collecting areas I enjoy. > > I think John's figures could be accurate for some dealers, especially those with a more "sophisticated" approach. > > However, I would assume most rock dealers operate like most dealers in other fields. They are either part-time or full-time retired or their spouse supports them. > > Thus, there is no rent. The business is in the basement where junk would sit otherwise. When they travel, they do like I do, take food along in a cooler and maybe stop at a grocery store to pick up a sandwhich, fruit, drinks, etc. (cheaper than restaurants). > > They stay in economy lodging or less. A big-time toy dealer nearby (sells to Hollywood stars, as well as others) I know often sleeps in the back of his pick-up and takes a bath in a nearby field (saw this done at a recent knap-in). > > Office equipment, well that's the computer they bought for their kids, they use second-hand boxes for packing and pay for shipping by adding to the cost of the item. > > Insurance--they are retired, or get through their spouse. > > Also, everyone cherrypicks. In most fields dealers only pay 20-30 percent of the selling price for low cost items. And they pick up the stuff another dealer misses or has no market for. > > It is not unusual at a stamp show for highly knowledgeable collectors and dealers to raid other stands for items valued at a small fraction of their value. > > I know a baseball card collector and several coin collectors who will go to a show and buy from one dealer and sell to another and make all their costs, add to their collection and come home with hundreds and sometimes thousands in checks and cash. They have no stand! > > If this is your living and you raise a family, buy your own insurance and have employees, it is completely different. Especially if you only mark up an item 100%. Indian artifacts sell quickly ("turnover"), but if your inventory sells more slowly I cannot imagine a dealer paying more than $15-20 for an item that sells for $50 and staying in business full-time on their own. That is VERY generous! > > My 2/10 of a cent. stan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 06:09:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 05:09:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses Message-ID: I think the whole issue here (and Walt captured it partly) is a matter of degree. If someone tries to sell me a couple of pieces that he had in his collection or if he proposes to "trade up" for a piece I see no harm in doing it at my booth. This person is merely acting as a collector and poses no threat to the show or dealers. If that person is trying to sell significant quantities, I have a big problem and I give him my card so we can do business outside of show hours. On the other hand I have prearranged to get materials delivered to me at a show. In this case the deal was done outside of the show time and I'm just getting a delivery. The person is not offering goods for sale at the show. Likewise I have made deals over the phone and delivered wrapped packages at shows.... So there are all shades of gray here. I think we have to use judgement and seek to be fair to those impacted. I will point out that there are some shows where selling out of the back of your truck or your pocket is the rule rather than the exception and then, since that is what that show is all about, go with the flow. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 9/6/2002 11:48:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobl@peaktopeak.com writes: > Hi Walt, > > I volunteer at the Denver Show each year and have done some security > shifts. > One of the things that we watch for are people/dealers trying to sell stuff > out of their vehicles in the parking lot. This is against the rules so we > chase them off if we catch them. > > I don't know about people trying to sell to other dealers within the > building. I have never seen anyone try to do that. But I'm sure it's > against > the rules at the Denver Show too. Like you said, give them your card and > meet them later. > > Bob > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 06:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Sat Sep 7 05:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Economics (give me a break!) References: Message-ID: <3D79F73A.688B4D95@earthlink.net> I will still pay a CA tax on my income from my "regular" job and my retirement income since it is derrived from Ca sources. Yeah, that is correct, that CA taxes you a big bunch. Kinda had that figgered at 12 percent. Darn, never was good at math. Yeah. Darn me. Take care, Grant. Walt Lapadary@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/5/02 10:46:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > geologo@earthlink.net writes: > > > These things are deductable, but you do not recoup all of the amount. > > 100,000 of > > deductions will only yeild a savings on taxes of approximately 20,000. > > Hey, I thought you were from California? How fast they forget when they are > east of the Colorado River. Don't forget the 13% of bottom line income that > goes to Sacramento. > > Grant Stuck in Chico, CA with State Income Tax. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 07:24:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Sat Sep 7 06:24:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses References: Message-ID: <3D79FDD2.748B703D@earthlink.net> Hi Bob: I don't know who you work for, but that is true, the folks selling from cars really are unfair competition to the dealers who paid to sell there. If you work for Marty Zinn, a great guy and great mineral collector and promotor, you know his views are very strong on this subject. I am careful not to even give the appearance of selling, if I deliver a dealer's order to him at a show. Walt Bob Loeffler wrote: > Hi Walt, > > I volunteer at the Denver Show each year and have done some security shifts. > One of the things that we watch for are people/dealers trying to sell stuff > out of their vehicles in the parking lot. This is against the rules so we > chase them off if we catch them. > > I don't know about people trying to sell to other dealers within the > building. I have never seen anyone try to do that. But I'm sure it's against > the rules at the Denver Show too. Like you said, give them your card and > meet them later. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S. > Bowser > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:53 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses > > Stan: > > You make some good points. > > There are many people who come to shows and buy and sell with no expense > because they do not rent spaces. Is this fair to those who do rent?? I > have people coming to me all the time at shows with offers of materials to > sell or trade. One individual even tried to selll me back some stuff he had > bought from me at last years show. I have put out dollars for a space and > consider this unfair > competition. If I go to a show and see a dealer who has materials similar > to mine and want to sell him stuff, I leave my card, tell him to stop by > after the show and then hope he comes by. To sell at a show where one has > not purchased space would appear to be unethical. > > I am not talking about a guy who has one or two things from his > grandfather's collection, I am talking about guys who come to the shows just > to buy and sell without having space rented, > > Walt > > Stan Raugh wrote: > > > I have NO real experience with selling rock, minerals and fossils, but > know many dealers in Indian artifacts and some of the many dozens of other > collecting areas I enjoy. > > > > I think John's figures could be accurate for some dealers, especially > those with a more "sophisticated" approach. > > > > However, I would assume most rock dealers operate like most dealers in > other fields. They are either part-time or full-time retired or their > spouse supports them. > > > > Thus, there is no rent. The business is in the basement where junk would > sit otherwise. When they travel, they do like I do, take food along in a > cooler and maybe stop at a grocery store to pick up a sandwhich, fruit, > drinks, etc. (cheaper than restaurants). > > > > They stay in economy lodging or less. A big-time toy dealer nearby (sells > to Hollywood stars, as well as others) I know often sleeps in the back of > his pick-up and takes a bath in a nearby field (saw this done at a recent > knap-in). > > > > Office equipment, well that's the computer they bought for their kids, > they use second-hand boxes for packing and pay for shipping by adding to the > cost of the item. > > > > Insurance--they are retired, or get through their spouse. > > > > Also, everyone cherrypicks. In most fields dealers only pay 20-30 percent > of the selling price for low cost items. And they pick up the stuff another > dealer misses or has no market for. > > > > It is not unusual at a stamp show for highly knowledgeable collectors and > dealers to raid other stands for items valued at a small fraction of their > value. > > > > I know a baseball card collector and several coin collectors who will go > to a show and buy from one dealer and sell to another and make all their > costs, add to their collection and come home with hundreds and sometimes > thousands in checks and cash. They have no stand! > > > > If this is your living and you raise a family, buy your own insurance and > have employees, it is completely different. Especially if you only mark up > an item 100%. Indian artifacts sell quickly ("turnover"), but if your > inventory sells more slowly I cannot imagine a dealer paying more than > $15-20 for an item that sells for $50 and staying in business full-time on > their own. That is VERY generous! > > > > My 2/10 of a cent. stan > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 07:44:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 06:44:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out References: <153.13a3968f.2aaa8259@aol.com> Message-ID: <002901c25675$74121660$42ae77d5@pandora.be> May be not, Walt. It is rather a question of which beliefs or philosophies are recognized and who has the right to recognize them. Abraham was respected because he heard the voice of God, Joan of Arc (the Maid of Orléans) was burnt at the stake for having exactly the same experience. Some say they hear His voice and start killing people in His name, others go live on Molokai and die of leprosy after a life between the poor and the sick like father Damian. If your friend doesn't pretend to be a Christan to boost his sales from within the christian community... no, I' wouldn't call him a quacq. Even if he did, I'd rather call him an oppurtunist with a less than complete set of values. However, if he started to sell madonna-shaped bottles of holy-water, telling that the water came from Lourdes and that it had healing powers... THEN I'd call him a quack. The churches of most religions buy there "props" from profane traders. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Economics of selling minerals vs. Check this out | In a message dated 9/5/02 11:30:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, | axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: | | > if one is not a "believer" and one sells crystals to those who are... is one | > then any different from a quack selling "Doctor Jollybottom's Snake Oil"? | > | | I've got a friend who is a silversmith. He is not a Christian, in fact, he is | a Jewish atheist. However, he makes and sells silver crosses for people who | want them. I'll have to tell him to cut it out since that makes him a quack. | | Grant | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 08:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 07:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> <015e01c255c3$ae53b3e0$3150fea9@win98> <001b01c255ef$0ddf06e0$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3> Message-ID: <004701c2567e$f459f780$42ae77d5@pandora.be> I was going to leave the topic but this one.... I just have to rebut you statement. Sorry 'bout this but: | Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? | We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet we | base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of | them that we've managed to invent in recent years. If this were true, we would still be using the Classical Mechanics instead of quantum mechanics. The Apollo capsules would have missed the moon by several kilometers (or would be splattered all over the place, for that matter) due to minute calculation errors and nobody would know why! Einstein PREDICTED the curvature of space which was later proven to exist. We make theories that predict the behaviour of the universe and then we often have to wait for decades for the technology to prove them. (Bohr, Perlemutter, Hawking, ... I can give you dozens of examples) I believe that the first step of your argumentation is flawed. | We have many postulates that suggest that there is much, like "dark matter", | that we cannot perceive but yet exists. Science IS a belief system based | exclusively on the extensions of our senses and the conceptions of our | brains. But humans are very limited beings with perception based only on | observations taken from the surface of, or very near one minor planet in a | minor solar system. There has got to be a lot more out there than may ever | be found by us. We know that yet we always come back to the proof being | based on the evidence of our own senses. This paragraph is also very biased towards the idea that we are so insignificant and ignorant that we MUST have missed all possible clues that there truly is a "twilight zone" out there... (tuudududu tuudududu ;-) I refuse to believe that. We humans, as a race, have done amazing things! We are on the verge of deciphering the very foundations of the universe as well as the foundations of life. | I do not embrace the metaphysical properties of rocks. I do not sell based | on that either. On the other hand, one of the folks who believes that there | is power there, pointed out once that the electrical force, the atomic | force, that helps form a crystal is still in that crystal. If some would | like to believe this, that is their belief system. Oh well.... The forces that form a crystal are called chemical bonds and crystals bonds. They are both manifestations of the electromagnetic power, one of the fundamental powers in the universe. There is nothing metaphysical about that power. It makes the sun shine (with some help from 2 other forces, gravity and the strong interaction) and doe lots of other non-mysterious things. If you really want to explore the frontier between philosophy and physics, then there is a book that you should read... It is called "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" and it's written by Gary Zukav. The writer is a reporter who does serious investigations about that borderline supernatural stuff that evokes such strong feelings in all of us..... There's plenty of chance to disagree with me after you read this book... but I think it will profoundly change your views without shaking your world. There still is mystery out there... only, real mystery instead of make-believe. Respectful, always.... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Stuart Schmitt" | To: | Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:37 AM | Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? | | | | Teresa please.... | | > The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not about | > what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of | > ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I | > believe for the most part we all decry (strongly disapprove of) the chosen | marketing scheme of | > taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a specific | > item because of their belief in its properties (uniqueness or beauty). | | > Our love of the stone for its beauty (properties) is affronted by those | who attach | > mystical properties (or scientific data) to it and grossly overprice it to | their financial | > benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success of | > that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at | > considerably less to collectors (of all kinds and for all reasons or | beliefs) not of the same mindset. | | > Bottom line is that (all sellers are) fad following opportunist lacking a | > conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business ventures. | > We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen. They | > just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts about | > them. | | Are our beliefs shaped by our experiences, or do we merely experience what | we believe? | | Which comes first, the scientific data or the belief that the scientific | data exists? | | With appreciation & gratitude, | Stuart Schmitt | Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine | www.arcrystalmine.com | 60 Mary's Eagle Trail | Mount Ida, AR 71957 | (870) 867-2443 | | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 08:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch) Date: Sat Sep 7 07:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents References: <8AA0D165-C1CC-11D6-8FD1-0050E4FA984A@mac.com> Message-ID: <003601c2567d$968207c0$d14027c4@horstspc> Hi Kris, Have just opened your query, after being away in Cape Town (South Africa), also attending their Gem and Mineral Show during the second part of the week. I had a similar problem with fluorite many, many years ago. (although not having some zeolites to contend with). I was trying to remove some iron stains from a piece of fluorite and ended up with a whitish deposit on it. I was using oxalic acid with tap water. I was told, much later, that in using oxalic acid, one should only use distilled water, otherwise this white deposit appears on it due to certain chemical which are added to tap water. Does the above method (oxalic Acid with tap water) ring a bell? Regards, Horst---- Original Message ----- From: "kris murray" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:12 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents > I have a question someone may have an answer to, actually its a > situation someone may help me out of..... I was at a 'flourite mine' > and found tons of flourite, one piece weighed over 150lbs and some was > in plates measuring better than 12" across and 1.5" thick. The bad part > was that every mineral was covered in a red slightly red translucent > stuff. I think to myself, hmmm, rust. Must use acid to remove. So I > went down to my local rock shop and got some acid (I forget which type) > and set to soaking and brushing with toothbrushes. ( I threw some dirty > zeolites in there too just for fun) and what happened was that the reed > coating on the flourite dissappeard and was replaced by a white deposit > which was more opaque! Gasp! Dangit! So I took the big piece in to be > sphered and now I have pretty clear to purple to sea green flourite > with an ugly semi-opaque white coating on it. Did my zeolites transfer? > Did I remove the supposed iron deposit only to discover a pitted and > even rougher flourite surface that is more restrictive to light > penetration and thus looking more opaque? Obviously I must go get more > big pieces of flourite (next June, wanna come? Just me and the missus > and maybe some cousins to help with labor). BUt other than that my huge > plates i would like to display but now they are ugly. i would like to > know how to or get ideas on how to fix my problem or also how to > remove red coating without a similar mishap. i do still have a few > smaller 1lb pieces left to experiment with. > Thanks all! > - Kris Murray > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 09:14:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 08:14:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <5b.2d8f44a5.2aaa6100@aol.com> Message-ID: <005101c25682$06c05380$42ae77d5@pandora.be> | > | > Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? | > We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet | > we | > base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of | > them that we've managed to invent in recent years. | | I can't think of one nonsensory way to examine the world. If I'm not using my | senses the only other way is through meditation, thought, or logic. Am I | missing something? Grant, using your senses will get you to the point where you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that an atom cannot exist! Any object that propagates on a curved trajectory looses energy because the laws of Newton dictate it. It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose energy (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. Clearly and in stark contrast with our sensory perception this does not happen. Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 09:44:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Sep 7 08:44:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents References: <8AA0D165-C1CC-11D6-8FD1-0050E4FA984A@mac.com> <003601c2567d$968207c0$d14027c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <3D7A1ED4.95DA68F3@att.net> Sorry I don't have time to answer in detail at the moment, but at least I can create a basis for further research on the part of interested parties. First, reagrding the use of tap water, it often contains chlorides, fluorides, and dissolved carbonates that can affect your chemical reaction and cause undesirable precipitates. While it is ridiculous for the average hobbyist to use ultra-purified deionized water, I recommend distilled water from the market. In the case of oxalic acid, your deposit may be calcium oxalate, but please double-check my hypothesis independently. Second, mineral cleaning is not as easy as adding one solution that will clean a particular mineral. There is at least one book by John Sinkankas (rest in peace)--now out of print, but perhaps available via his widow at Peri Lithon Books, or via search of used book dealers on the Internet--that describes some details of mineral cleaning. I know there was an article on John Betts's website that described some other techniques, particularly the use of Waller Solution. However, I'm sorry to say there is no such magical answer to the question "How do I clean xxxxite?" It's more about "What will not dissolve xxxxite?" and "what other minerals am I trying to remove from the xxxxite?" Chemistry is fun. Cleaning quartz can be easy. Chemically cleaning a matrix piece of calcite, fluorite, limonite, aragonite, and galena (assuming you'd want to ruin the associations) is not so easy. The dissolved ions from one mineral may combine with either the acid or base or other free ions to form a new, insoluble, and undesirable precipitate. If you want to clean a specimen with 100% knowledge of the expected results, you need to know what each mineral is--hoping there aren't any you missed--and then need to know exactly how to remove perhaps minerals A and B while still leaving X and Y and all without creating a new coating on X and Y that is nearly impossible to remove. If you do some searching and reading, you will find some well-known techniques for cleaning commonly found specimen combinations, but if you have an odd association you are often on your own. Third, cleaning fluorite with chemicals can be hazardous. Somewhere I have written down the exact formulae, but since I've never cleaned fluorite I don't worry about it--in any case, you may produce HF (hydrogen fluoride), a silica-dissolving acid and a deadly gas. This occurs when fluorine from the CaF is recombined with H. Please double-check this as well. It should be simple chemistry, but it's such an important point that I don't want to make assertions without firm knowledge. Fourth, as I implied earlier, stop and ask yourself why you're cleaning the mineral with chemicals. You may be removing an important association or a rare mineral or even a new species. If you can say to yourself "I'm willing to disregard all that, I just want my nice shiny fluorite," then clean away with vigor! Fifth and last--remember that some of the above is from the top of my head. As Dr. Jones said in The Last Crusade, "I wrote them down so I don't have to remember." There is a lot of knowledge of which we are aware but almost never use, and sometimes we remember incorrectly. I don't have the time to look up these facts at the moment. Please use all the preceding as a springboard for your own investigation. Good luck and stay safe, Don > I had a similar problem with fluorite many, many years ago. (although not > having some zeolites to contend with). I was trying to remove some iron > stains from a piece of fluorite and ended up with a whitish deposit on it. I > was using oxalic acid with tap water. I was told, much later, that in using > oxalic acid, one should only use distilled water, otherwise this white > deposit appears on it due to certain chemical which are added to tap water. > Does the above method (oxalic Acid with tap water) ring a bell? > > Regards, > Horst---- Original Message ----- > From: "kris murray" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 10:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Sep 7 09:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? In-Reply-To: <005101c25682$06c05380$42ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Not to take away from your main point, which I agree with, electrons do not physically orbit the nucleus. Chemist generally refer to the "electron cloud", and actually it is not even possible to say where an electron is actually located because of the Heisenberg principal. The loss of energy by a _charged_ orbiting partical is behind one of the great scientific questions of the early 20th century and is tied in with quantization of energy levels in electrons. Historically the model progressed from the Rutherford to the Bohr to the Schrödinger models. But you are correct there are plenty of things in this universe that we can never directly observe with our senses, we can only directly sense the smallest fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum, a tiny part of one percent. However by use of our minds we can observe and quantify almost all of that spectrum. Another point is that one of the baseline principals of science is that the physics we observe here are the same everywhere else in the universe. And generally at every other time in past history too. Bryan ---------------------------- It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose energy (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. Clearly and in stark contrast with our sensory perception this does not happen. Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 10:55:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Sat Sep 7 09:55:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, you have made good points. There are gray areas. If the show is a "tailgate", then I agree with you. We have the "Contin-Tail" (Continental Divide Tailgate) every year in Buena Vista, Colorado and that is exactly what it is... people selling rocks, minerals, gems, etc out of their vehicles. Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of FOSSILNUT@aol.com Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 6:09 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses I think the whole issue here (and Walt captured it partly) is a matter of degree. If someone tries to sell me a couple of pieces that he had in his collection or if he proposes to "trade up" for a piece I see no harm in doing it at my booth. This person is merely acting as a collector and poses no threat to the show or dealers. If that person is trying to sell significant quantities, I have a big problem and I give him my card so we can do business outside of show hours. On the other hand I have prearranged to get materials delivered to me at a show. In this case the deal was done outside of the show time and I'm just getting a delivery. The person is not offering goods for sale at the show. Likewise I have made deals over the phone and delivered wrapped packages at shows.... So there are all shades of gray here. I think we have to use judgement and seek to be fair to those impacted. I will point out that there are some shows where selling out of the back of your truck or your pocket is the rule rather than the exception and then, since that is what that show is all about, go with the flow. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 9/6/2002 11:48:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobl@peaktopeak.com writes: > Hi Walt, > > I volunteer at the Denver Show each year and have done some security > shifts. > One of the things that we watch for are people/dealers trying to sell stuff > out of their vehicles in the parking lot. This is against the rules so we > chase them off if we catch them. > > I don't know about people trying to sell to other dealers within the > building. I have never seen anyone try to do that. But I'm sure it's > against > the rules at the Denver Show too. Like you said, give them your card and > meet them later. > > Bob > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 11:04:58 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Raugh) Date: Sat Sep 7 10:04:58 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealing Message-ID: <001001c25692$7852c720$99a08041@oemcomputer> One of my many, many hobbies is the "hobby" of studying hobbies--the = differences between them, etc. It is interesting that many mineral shows apparently discourage selling = to dealers. At coin and baseball card, Indian relic or many other show = I have never seen this to be a problem as long as one of the parties = bought space. What is frowned upon is a collector opening up shop in an aisle, the = lunch area, the lobby or the parking lot and doing wholesale business (I = have seen teenagers set up at shows on a couch in the lobby of a coin = show on more than one instance). And even a little of that is often = tolerated, especially for youngster, even though that kid might make a = couple hundred or so in an afternoon. Part of it I think is because money flows like water at coin show--I = have seen dealers who sold almost all their stock on Fri and Sat and = pack up and leave a sign at the stand on Sunday "sold out." If the = dealers are making money, they ignore the side business. I collect rare plants and do a little hybridizing with daylillies. I = have also grown iris. In the world or iris, you destroy all seedlings = you do not register and introduce. It is a big problem with other = growers if you don't. With daylilly people, you can wholesale off your = seedlings, sell them to customers, give them away, whatever. But then, = daylillies are hot and iris are not and their respective organizations = see it differently It is interesting to me, the different "cultures" of collecting. A few = years ago a group of energetic teens roamed the bigger coin shows buying = and selling between dealers. They were celebrities and when they grew = up and no longer hunted in a pack there were editorials about missing = them. This in not praise, nor criticism, just cultural anthropology here. = stan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 11:05:08 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 10:05:08 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents Message-ID: <80.2127dc72.2aab8b27@aol.com> Don..as a hobbyist..who keeps her minerals in a glass cabinet..which allows dust to enter unfortunately, once or twice a year I have to take my minerals out..and clean the shelves and mirror'd back, I usually take a soft brush and dust the minerals..but I know that there is a build up of dust that won't come off. Any suggestions on how to deal with the dust? I have washed my quartz in water, but do not wash any of my other myriad of minerals. I'm getting the idea that it's just best to dust them and deal with the build up??? I found your email/information very interesting tho! I've often wondered about cleaning mineral specimans, not so much field specimans, in my case, as the cabinet kind tho. Thanks.... Jackie In a message dated 9/7/02 11:43:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, morningstar@att.net writes: > First, reagrding the use of tap water, it often contains chlorides, > fluorides, and dissolved carbonates that can affect your chemical > reaction and cause undesirable precipitates. While it is ridiculous for > the average hobbyist to use ultra-purified deionized water, I recommend > distilled water from the market. In the case of oxalic acid, your > deposit may be calcium oxalate, but please double-check my hypothesis > independently. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 11:06:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Sat Sep 7 10:06:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses In-Reply-To: <3D79FDD2.748B703D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Walt, When I work at the Denver Show, I'm volunteering, so I don't really work for anyone. I'm just in one of the 10 clubs that put the *main* show on each year. I don't know the rules regarding Marty Zinn's satellite show; that is separate from the main show, although there are shuttles that run back and forth between the two. It sounds to me that Marty doesn't like it either. :-) Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S. Bowser Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:24 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses Hi Bob: I don't know who you work for, but that is true, the folks selling from cars really are unfair competition to the dealers who paid to sell there. If you work for Marty Zinn, a great guy and great mineral collector and promotor, you know his views are very strong on this subject. I am careful not to even give the appearance of selling, if I deliver a dealer's order to him at a show. Walt Bob Loeffler wrote: > Hi Walt, > > I volunteer at the Denver Show each year and have done some security shifts. > One of the things that we watch for are people/dealers trying to sell stuff > out of their vehicles in the parking lot. This is against the rules so we > chase them off if we catch them. > > I don't know about people trying to sell to other dealers within the > building. I have never seen anyone try to do that. But I'm sure it's against > the rules at the Denver Show too. Like you said, give them your card and > meet them later. > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S. > Bowser > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:53 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses > > Stan: > > You make some good points. > > There are many people who come to shows and buy and sell with no expense > because they do not rent spaces. Is this fair to those who do rent?? I > have people coming to me all the time at shows with offers of materials to > sell or trade. One individual even tried to selll me back some stuff he had > bought from me at last years show. I have put out dollars for a space and > consider this unfair > competition. If I go to a show and see a dealer who has materials similar > to mine and want to sell him stuff, I leave my card, tell him to stop by > after the show and then hope he comes by. To sell at a show where one has > not purchased space would appear to be unethical. > > I am not talking about a guy who has one or two things from his > grandfather's collection, I am talking about guys who come to the shows just > to buy and sell without having space rented, > > Walt > > Stan Raugh wrote: > > > I have NO real experience with selling rock, minerals and fossils, but > know many dealers in Indian artifacts and some of the many dozens of other > collecting areas I enjoy. > > > > I think John's figures could be accurate for some dealers, especially > those with a more "sophisticated" approach. > > > > However, I would assume most rock dealers operate like most dealers in > other fields. They are either part-time or full-time retired or their > spouse supports them. > > > > Thus, there is no rent. The business is in the basement where junk would > sit otherwise. When they travel, they do like I do, take food along in a > cooler and maybe stop at a grocery store to pick up a sandwhich, fruit, > drinks, etc. (cheaper than restaurants). > > > > They stay in economy lodging or less. A big-time toy dealer nearby (sells > to Hollywood stars, as well as others) I know often sleeps in the back of > his pick-up and takes a bath in a nearby field (saw this done at a recent > knap-in). > > > > Office equipment, well that's the computer they bought for their kids, > they use second-hand boxes for packing and pay for shipping by adding to the > cost of the item. > > > > Insurance--they are retired, or get through their spouse. > > > > Also, everyone cherrypicks. In most fields dealers only pay 20-30 percent > of the selling price for low cost items. And they pick up the stuff another > dealer misses or has no market for. > > > > It is not unusual at a stamp show for highly knowledgeable collectors and > dealers to raid other stands for items valued at a small fraction of their > value. > > > > I know a baseball card collector and several coin collectors who will go > to a show and buy from one dealer and sell to another and make all their > costs, add to their collection and come home with hundreds and sometimes > thousands in checks and cash. They have no stand! > > > > If this is your living and you raise a family, buy your own insurance and > have employees, it is completely different. Especially if you only mark up > an item 100%. Indian artifacts sell quickly ("turnover"), but if your > inventory sells more slowly I cannot imagine a dealer paying more than > $15-20 for an item that sells for $50 and staying in business full-time on > their own. That is VERY generous! > > > > My 2/10 of a cent. stan > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 11:21:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Sat Sep 7 10:21:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents In-Reply-To: <003601c2567d$968207c0$d14027c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <17969626-C286-11D6-B958-000A27B5DC58@mac.com> yes it does. calcium oxaxlate i was told but not told how to remove it. any suggestions? Kris On Saturday, September 7, 2002, at 07:45 AM, horstwindisch wrote: > Does the above method (oxalic Acid with tap water) ring a bell? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 11:41:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 10:41:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com> Message-ID: <00d401c25696$8e997520$42ae77d5@pandora.be> Hey, I'm into fluorescence too... Yes: could be beryl , colorless variety "goshenite". I have some from China. The fluorescence is rather eerie, not very intense... Anyway: here's a photo to compare the fluorescent color... http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoBER556.html I heard of blue fluorescing fluorapatite but haven't seen it yet. It is listed in Manny Robbins book 'Fluorescence Gems and Minerals under UV Light" Whitherite? Perhaps looking at these psuedo-hexagonal XX may give you a clue? http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae029.html I don't think you would easily mistake elbaite for hexagonal but to be on the safe side: http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoELB1009.html Bazirite is hexagonal and may fluoresce blue. I hope this helps Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan C. Martin II" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms | In an effort to distract you from the current (barely on topic) discussion | of healing stones and religion-bashing, I would like to ask your help in | identifying an interesting find that I made recently at a location near the | Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. | | I went there looking for fluorite (my favorite mineral) and although I | found some nice small fluorite crystals in red fluorescing calcite, the | most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms | with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter. In | normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet | they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce. In just looking at the crystal | form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the | fluorescence has me puzzled. They spray is too small and delicate to do | any tests on so I would like to get your input based on experience with | other specimens that you might be familiar with. | | Does anyone know of blue fluorescing beryl or apatite crystals? or other | hexagonal minerals that would yield that fluorescence.? | | This locality has a very complex mineralogy with different veins yielding | scheelite, fluorite in calcite, topaz, grossular garnet and I even think | emerald has been claimed from there. | | As an aside I also believe I found a similar blue fluorescing clear | hexagonal crystal a few years ago in the Morgan Pit (adjacent to the | Harvard Quarry) in Greenwood, ME. I currently am trying to find it to | check it again. Thus if you can help me out with some information you may | actually help me identify two specimens (leaving only several hundred more | mysteries for the future). | | Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. | | Best regards, | | Nate Martin | Lexington, MA | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 11:48:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 10:48:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: Message-ID: <00f001c25697$83730980$42ae77d5@pandora.be> | | Another point is that one of the baseline principals of science is that the | physics we observe here are the same everywhere else in the universe. And | generally at every other time in past history too. | | Bryan I'm sorry to burst even that last bubble... even that proposition is heavily under fire lately. Scientists are looking for proof that the speed of light MAY have been different from what it is now... Oh boy, even I am beginning to dislike myself ;-D))))))) Axel | ---------------------------- | It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. | Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose energy | (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. | Clearly and in stark contrast with our sensory perception this does not | happen. | Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe. | | | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 12:07:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 11:07:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out Message-ID: <20020907180608.XERY1360.fed1mtao01.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Axel, The best thing that did happen was this discussion was held without rancor or blatant attacks to publicly humiliate anyone. The topic as Aaron mentioned was somewhat on the fringe of rockhounding, but a multiple answer to the original question. My thanks to everyone. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 12:38:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 11:38:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents Message-ID: <20020907183717.HWAE1374.fed1mtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Kris, Question, the piece you intended to sphere, did you cut it to suare it for the sphere machine? Was it uncoated at the cuts? Would not the sphere process eliminate the coating while grinding? Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 12:49:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Sat Sep 7 11:49:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents Message-ID: <001201c2569e$e63d6540$0fa14bd5@o8o3s6> Hi Kris, Regarding your question of what is best to get rid of rust, I have an answer for you! Use dithionite! It is really great stuff! The idea is as follows. Dithionite comes as two white powders A and B. One is the actual ditionite, the other is EDTA and a pH buffer. You dissolve the prescribed amounts of powders in demi-water and then submerge your sample. Wait for an hour or two (depends on the temperature) and be amazed. The sample should be absolutely clean. Once ready you clean the sample with water. The mixed dithionite solution is instable and works only for a limited time. Afterwards it is broken down to harmless sulfur compounds. Sometimes a little sulphur may stick to your sample but it comes of easily under running water. There are some advantages over the use of acids. Ditionite is not as poisonous as oxalic acid. It is much quicker and it will not give a precipitation with calcium. It is also very economic, since a teaspoon of powder will make a liter of cleaning solution. On the down side it smells awfull and the job must be done outside. Secondary minerals of metals which form easily complxes such as copper, cobalt, nickel and of course iron are affected by ditionite and should therefore not be present, unless you want to get rid of it. I have no experience with silver, but I can imagine the sulphur is not too good for silver specimen..... Dithionite is available in rockshops (at least in Europe). Cheers, Maurice From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 12:58:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 11:58:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/7/02 8:14:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > > It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. > Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose energy > (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. Clearly and in stark contrast > with our sensory perception this does not happen. > Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe. Can you prove that statement without the use of any of your senses or something to enhance your senses? Can you understand it with the human brain that Derek said was unable to understand most of existence? I copied his email below to refesh your memory of what he said. In a message dated 9/6/02 2:48:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, stoneage@vermontel.net writes: > > Yes, Grant. I think you are missing something. Missing is the realization > that all that exists may not be perceivable by human senses. In fact I > would > guess that the vast amount of existence is not humanly understandable. We > may catch glimmerings and more glimmerings. That's what has happened with > scientific discovery over the years. That which was impossible became > commonplace. But why would we possibly think that everything that can > exist, and I'm using fairly simple terminology here, only exists within the > realm of human senses to record? Surely with all the vastness of > possibility out there in the universe, there are other "senses" if you > will. > I'm not saying I know what they are. I'm saying that it seems unlikely > that > we, homo sapiens sapiens, can be all knowing and all seeing, to steal a > phrase from another context. If we can't, then we must assume that we have > huge limitations. > > > Derek I just really wonder where this is going? Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 13:17:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 12:17:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] UNSCRIBE Message-ID: <1b9.5f8b984.2aabaa9a@aol.com> From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 13:46:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Sep 7 12:46:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents References: <80.2127dc72.2aab8b27@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D7A579D.21D24462@att.net> Regarding cleaning of display specimens, once again it depends on the composition of the specimen. For many, a simple rinse in distilled water will do. Others are water-soluble! Others are delicate and can be broken by the slightest touch. I've seen vacuum attachments meant for reaching small areas, like in between computer keys; perhaps such an attachment, held a few millimeters away from the specimen surface, is a good choice for the more refined crystal sprays and highly textured minerals. Don't worry too much about scrubbing them clean. A tiny bit of detritus is mostly problematic under magnification: more than once I've thought I found an exotic mineral while poking around at 40-60x, only to discover that it was some brightly colored synthetic fiber, lichen--or in one case, insect eggs! Anyway, the best bang for your buck would be to seal your cabinets as well as possible. Home Depot carries an assortment of self-stick weather stripping that I have found works if you choose a style that fits your particular cabinet's gaps. Regarding the removal of calcium oxalate, I have no knowledge. I'm not saying there isn't, just that I don't know if there is. Perhaps someone else will come forth with that one. Good luck, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 13:48:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Sep 7 12:48:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? In-Reply-To: <00f001c25697$83730980$42ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: I thought about that when I was writing and decided not to obscure the issue by mentioning that, but you are correct. Cosmology (and high energy physics) is in a ferment right now it seems to me, so many conflicting theories. It reminds me of the state of physics in the late 1800's and early 1900's before relativity and quantum theory. Bryan -------------------- I'm sorry to burst even that last bubble... even that proposition is heavily under fire lately. Scientists are looking for proof that the speed of light MAY have been different from what it is now... Oh boy, even I am beginning to dislike myself ;-D))))))) Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 13:52:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 12:52:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents Message-ID: <16e.135cfbac.2aabb2c2@aol.com> Thanks Don, I appreciate your suggestions and time! Jackie In a message dated 9/7/02 3:46:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, morningstar@att.net writes: > > Regarding cleaning of display specimens, once again it depends on the > composition of the specimen. For many, a simple rinse in distilled > water will do. Others are water-soluble! Others are delicate and can > be broken by the slightest touch. I've seen vacuum attachments meant > for reaching small areas, like in between computer keys; perhaps such an > attachment, held a few millimeters away from the specimen surface, is a > good choice for the more refined crystal sprays and highly textured > minerals. Don't worry too much about scrubbing them clean. A tiny bit > of detritus is mostly problematic under magnification: more than once > I've thought I found an exotic mineral while poking around at 40-60x, > only to discover that it was some brightly colored synthetic fiber, > lichen--or in one case, insect eggs! Anyway, the best bang for your > buck would be to seal your cabinets as well as possible. Home Depot > carries an assortment of self-stick weather stripping that I have found > works if you choose a style that fits your particular cabinet's gaps. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 14:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stan Perry) Date: Sat Sep 7 13:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms In-Reply-To: <00d401c25696$8e997520$42ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <20020907201117.83686.qmail@web11105.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, I'm no Fluorescent expert but I have seen several fluorescent apatite crystals. As for the witherite I would be very very surprised to see a barium carbonate show up in association with the other minerals found there. Good Luck, Stan Perry www.emineralshow.com --- Axel Emmermann <axel.emmermann@pandora.be> wrote: > Hey, I'm into fluorescence too... > > Yes: could be beryl , colorless variety "goshenite". > I have some from China. > The fluorescence is rather eerie, not very > intense... > Anyway: here's a photo to compare the fluorescent > color... > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoBER556.html > > I heard of blue fluorescing fluorapatite but haven't > seen it yet. It is > listed in Manny Robbins book 'Fluorescence Gems and > Minerals under UV Light" > > Whitherite? Perhaps looking at these > psuedo-hexagonal XX may give you a > clue? http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae029.html > > I don't think you would easily mistake elbaite for > hexagonal but to be on > the safe side: > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoELB1009.html > > Bazirite is hexagonal and may fluoresce blue. > > I hope this helps > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nathan C. Martin II" <nmartin@bbn.com> > To: <rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:35 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms > > > | In an effort to distract you from the current > (barely on topic) discussion > | of healing stones and religion-bashing, I would > like to ask your help in > | identifying an interesting find that I made > recently at a location near > the > | Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. > | > | I went there looking for fluorite (my favorite > mineral) and although I > | found some nice small fluorite crystals in red > fluorescing calcite, the > | most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, > terminated,hexagonal prisms > | with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x > 0.5 mm in diameter. In > | normal light the crystals are colorless but under > short wave ultraviolet > | they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce. In > just looking at the crystal > | form I would have guessed that they were either > beryl or apatite but the > | fluorescence has me puzzled. They spray is too > small and delicate to do > | any tests on so I would like to get your input > based on experience with > | other specimens that you might be familiar with. > | > | Does anyone know of blue fluorescing beryl or > apatite crystals? or other > | hexagonal minerals that would yield that > fluorescence.? > | > | This locality has a very complex mineralogy with > different veins yielding > | scheelite, fluorite in calcite, topaz, grossular > garnet and I even think > | emerald has been claimed from there. > | > | As an aside I also believe I found a similar blue > fluorescing clear > | hexagonal crystal a few years ago in the Morgan > Pit (adjacent to the > | Harvard Quarry) in Greenwood, ME. I currently am > trying to find it to > | check it again. Thus if you can help me out with > some information you may > | actually help me identify two specimens (leaving > only several hundred more > | mysteries for the future). > | > | Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. > | > | Best regards, > | > | Nate Martin > | Lexington, MA > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ===== Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 16:33:39 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Sat Sep 7 15:33:39 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> <015e01c255c3$ae53b3e0$3150fea9@win98> <001b01c255ef$0ddf06e0$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3> <004701c2567e$f459f780$42ae77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3D7A7D22.78ED6CB0@earthlink.net> Yet, some how, some way, it was all perceived in the mind of man. Walt Axel Emmermann wrote: > I was going to leave the topic but this one.... I just have to rebut you > statement. > Sorry 'bout this but: > > | Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our perceptions? > | We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin. Yet > we > | base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and magnifications of > | them that we've managed to invent in recent years. > > If this were true, we would still be using the Classical Mechanics instead > of quantum mechanics. The Apollo capsules would have missed the moon by > several kilometers (or would be splattered all over the place, for that > matter) due to minute calculation errors and nobody would know why! > Einstein PREDICTED the curvature of space which was later proven to exist. > We make theories that predict the behaviour of the universe and then we > often have to wait for decades for the technology to prove them. (Bohr, > Perlemutter, Hawking, ... I can give you dozens of examples) > > I believe that the first step of your argumentation is flawed. > > | We have many postulates that suggest that there is much, like "dark > matter", > | that we cannot perceive but yet exists. Science IS a belief system based > | exclusively on the extensions of our senses and the conceptions of our > | brains. But humans are very limited beings with perception based only on > | observations taken from the surface of, or very near one minor planet in a > | minor solar system. There has got to be a lot more out there than may > ever > | be found by us. We know that yet we always come back to the proof being > | based on the evidence of our own senses. > > This paragraph is also very biased towards the idea that we are so > insignificant and ignorant that we MUST have missed all possible clues that > there truly is a "twilight zone" out there... (tuudududu tuudududu ;-) > I refuse to believe that. We humans, as a race, have done amazing things! We > are on the verge of deciphering the very foundations of the universe as well > as the foundations of life. > > | I do not embrace the metaphysical properties of rocks. I do not sell > based > | on that either. On the other hand, one of the folks who believes that > there > | is power there, pointed out once that the electrical force, the atomic > | force, that helps form a crystal is still in that crystal. If some would > | like to believe this, that is their belief system. Oh well.... > > The forces that form a crystal are called chemical bonds and crystals bonds. > They are both manifestations of the electromagnetic power, one of the > fundamental powers in the universe. There is nothing metaphysical about that > power. It makes the sun shine (with some help from 2 other forces, gravity > and the strong interaction) and doe lots of other non-mysterious things. > If you really want to explore the frontier between philosophy and physics, > then there is a book that you should read... It is called "The Dancing Wu Li > Masters" and it's written by Gary Zukav. > The writer is a reporter who does serious investigations about that > borderline supernatural stuff that evokes such strong feelings in all of > us..... > There's plenty of chance to disagree with me after you read this book... but > I think it will profoundly change your views without shaking your world. > There still is mystery out there... only, real mystery instead of > make-believe. > > Respectful, always.... > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Stuart Schmitt" > | To: > | Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:37 AM > | Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? > | > | > | > | Teresa please.... > | > | > The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not about > | > what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of > | > ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I > | > believe for the most part we all decry (strongly disapprove of) the > chosen > | marketing scheme of > | > taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a specific > | > item because of their belief in its properties (uniqueness or beauty). > | > | > Our love of the stone for its beauty (properties) is affronted by those > | who attach > | > mystical properties (or scientific data) to it and grossly overprice it > to > | their financial > | > benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success of > | > that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at > | > considerably less to collectors (of all kinds and for all reasons or > | beliefs) not of the same mindset. > | > | > Bottom line is that (all sellers are) fad following opportunist lacking > a > | > conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business ventures. > | > We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen. They > | > just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts about > | > them. > | > | Are our beliefs shaped by our experiences, or do we merely experience what > | we believe? > | > | Which comes first, the scientific data or the belief that the scientific > | data exists? > | > | With appreciation & gratitude, > | Stuart Schmitt > | Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine > | www.arcrystalmine.com > | 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > | Mount Ida, AR 71957 > | (870) 867-2443 > | > | > | > | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > | multipart/alternative > | text/plain (text body -- kept) > | text/html > | --- > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > | > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > | Subscription Services: > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > | > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 16:38:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 15:38:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check this out References: <20020907180608.XERY1360.fed1mtao01.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Message-ID: <002201c256c0$0c5c99a0$42ae77d5@pandora.be> That's the whole idea, Teresa. It's better to turn away and let the topic be if one is offended by somebody's arguments. Better than to attack each other... What Aaron said is true at first sight but.... if so many rockhounds participate in this discussion with so many different and sincerely meant contributions, one cannot say that it is really off topic. It touches us all. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Re: [Rockhounds] Check this out | Axel, | The best thing that did happen was this discussion was held without rancor or blatant attacks to publicly humiliate anyone. | | The topic as Aaron mentioned was somewhat on the fringe of rockhounding, but a multiple answer to the original question. | | My thanks to everyone. | Teresa | | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 16:42:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser) Date: Sat Sep 7 15:42:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses References: Message-ID: <3D7A80A9.F4C3F9F4@earthlink.net> Marty nor any of the other promotors like tailgating at the shows they set up for dealers. NO, he does not. I have not ever heard of him getting on anyone, but have heard of others that have. I may beup to Denver soon for the show. Will say hi IF I make it. Walt Bob Loeffler wrote: > Hi Walt, > > When I work at the Denver Show, I'm volunteering, so I don't really work for > anyone. I'm just in one of the 10 clubs that put the *main* show on each > year. I don't know the rules regarding Marty Zinn's satellite show; that is > separate from the main show, although there are shuttles that run back and > forth between the two. It sounds to me that Marty doesn't like it either. > :-) > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S. > Bowser > Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:24 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses > > Hi Bob: > > I don't know who you work for, but that is true, the folks selling from cars > really are unfair competition to the dealers who paid to sell there. > > If you work for Marty Zinn, a great guy and great mineral collector and > promotor, you know his views are very strong on this subject. I am careful > not > to even give the appearance of selling, if I deliver a dealer's order to him > at > a show. > > Walt > > Bob Loeffler wrote: > > > Hi Walt, > > > > I volunteer at the Denver Show each year and have done some security > shifts. > > One of the things that we watch for are people/dealers trying to sell > stuff > > out of their vehicles in the parking lot. This is against the rules so we > > chase them off if we catch them. > > > > I don't know about people trying to sell to other dealers within the > > building. I have never seen anyone try to do that. But I'm sure it's > against > > the rules at the Denver Show too. Like you said, give them your card and > > meet them later. > > > > Bob > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S. > > Bowser > > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:53 AM > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Dealer Expenses > > > > Stan: > > > > You make some good points. > > > > There are many people who come to shows and buy and sell with no expense > > because they do not rent spaces. Is this fair to those who do rent?? I > > have people coming to me all the time at shows with offers of materials to > > sell or trade. One individual even tried to selll me back some stuff he > had > > bought from me at last years show. I have put out dollars for a space and > > consider this unfair > > competition. If I go to a show and see a dealer who has materials similar > > to mine and want to sell him stuff, I leave my card, tell him to stop by > > after the show and then hope he comes by. To sell at a show where one has > > not purchased space would appear to be unethical. > > > > I am not talking about a guy who has one or two things from his > > grandfather's collection, I am talking about guys who come to the shows > just > > to buy and sell without having space rented, > > > > Walt > > > > Stan Raugh wrote: > > > > > I have NO real experience with selling rock, minerals and fossils, but > > know many dealers in Indian artifacts and some of the many dozens of other > > collecting areas I enjoy. > > > > > > I think John's figures could be accurate for some dealers, especially > > those with a more "sophisticated" approach. > > > > > > However, I would assume most rock dealers operate like most dealers in > > other fields. They are either part-time or full-time retired or their > > spouse supports them. > > > > > > Thus, there is no rent. The business is in the basement where junk > would > > sit otherwise. When they travel, they do like I do, take food along in a > > cooler and maybe stop at a grocery store to pick up a sandwhich, fruit, > > drinks, etc. (cheaper than restaurants). > > > > > > They stay in economy lodging or less. A big-time toy dealer nearby > (sells > > to Hollywood stars, as well as others) I know often sleeps in the back of > > his pick-up and takes a bath in a nearby field (saw this done at a recent > > knap-in). > > > > > > Office equipment, well that's the computer they bought for their kids, > > they use second-hand boxes for packing and pay for shipping by adding to > the > > cost of the item. > > > > > > Insurance--they are retired, or get through their spouse. > > > > > > Also, everyone cherrypicks. In most fields dealers only pay 20-30 > percent > > of the selling price for low cost items. And they pick up the stuff > another > > dealer misses or has no market for. > > > > > > It is not unusual at a stamp show for highly knowledgeable collectors > and > > dealers to raid other stands for items valued at a small fraction of their > > value. > > > > > > I know a baseball card collector and several coin collectors who will go > > to a show and buy from one dealer and sell to another and make all their > > costs, add to their collection and come home with hundreds and sometimes > > thousands in checks and cash. They have no stand! > > > > > > If this is your living and you raise a family, buy your own insurance > and > > have employees, it is completely different. Especially if you only mark > up > > an item 100%. Indian artifacts sell quickly ("turnover"), but if your > > inventory sells more slowly I cannot imagine a dealer paying more than > > $15-20 for an item that sells for $50 and staying in business full-time on > > their own. That is VERY generous! > > > > > > My 2/10 of a cent. stan > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 16:47:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Sep 7 15:47:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: Message-ID: <003001c256c1$6047f2c0$42ae77d5@pandora.be> | In a message dated 9/7/02 8:14:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, | axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: | > | > It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. | > Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose energy | > (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. Clearly and in stark contrast | > with our sensory perception this does not happen. | > Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe. | | Can you prove that statement without the use of any of your senses or | something to enhance your senses? Can you understand it with the human brain | that Derek said was unable to understand most of existence? I copied his | email below to refesh your memory of what he said. Yes indeed. Just do this experiment: Drive your car and accellerate to say 20 mph. Then put the gear in neutral and measure how far you can drive in a straight line before coming to a halt. Now, do the same but drive in a circle with a fixed diameter. Again measure the distance traveled until you stop. You'll see that this is considerably shorter. You do loos energy driving in a circle faster than you do in a straight line. Aply this to the electron and the conclusion is clear. It's a thought-experiment that caused quantum mechanics to emerge. The electron does not revolve around the atom. It can't! It's a standing wave rather than a revolving particle but this would take us even further off topic... Axel | In a message dated 9/6/02 2:48:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, | stoneage@vermontel.net writes: | | > | > Yes, Grant. I think you are missing something. Missing is the realization | > that all that exists may not be perceivable by human senses. In fact I | > would | > guess that the vast amount of existence is not humanly understandable. We | > may catch glimmerings and more glimmerings. That's what has happened with | > scientific discovery over the years. That which was impossible became | > commonplace. But why would we possibly think that everything that can | > exist, and I'm using fairly simple terminology here, only exists within the | > realm of human senses to record? Surely with all the vastness of | > possibility out there in the universe, there are other "senses" if you | > will. | > I'm not saying I know what they are. I'm saying that it seems unlikely | > that | > we, homo sapiens sapiens, can be all knowing and all seeing, to steal a | > phrase from another context. If we can't, then we must assume that we have | > huge limitations. | > | > | > Derek | | I just really wonder where this is going? | | Grant | | | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- | multipart/alternative | text/plain (text body -- kept) | text/html | --- | _______________________________________________ | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds | Subscription Services: | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds | From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 17:25:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 16:25:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Message-ID: <99.2c2c01b2.2aabe4ae@aol.com> I disagree with this statement because Newton's laws also say that angular momentum, in the absence of friction, is conserved. Thus if a moon and a planet were spherical, solid-crystalline bodies in a perfect vacuum, one would orbit the other forever. They would not slow down. The force of gravity in this case acts at all times perpendicular to the motion so no work is done and no energy consumed. Gene Hartstein In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:14:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > Grant, using your senses will get you to the point where you can prove > beyond the shadow of a doubt that an atom cannot exist! > Any object that propagates on a curved trajectory looses energy because the > laws of Newton dictate it. > It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. > Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose energy > (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. > Clearly and in stark contrast with our sensory perception this does not > happen. > Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 17:43:03 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 16:43:03 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? Message-ID: <184.df88dcc.2aabe8cb@aol.com> In a message dated 9/7/02 3:47:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > You do loos energy driving in a circle faster than you do in a straight > line. > You are talking about friction of rubber on the road, no more, no less. I want you or Derek to prove something exist without using any of your 5 senses. You have to prove it without seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling, or touching. Without one of those you are left with, "I think, therefore I am." And that only proves your existance, not mine, and not some other "stuff" that humans cannot comphend. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 18:20:01 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Sep 7 17:20:01 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? References: <184.df88dcc.2aabe8cb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D7A97C2.45D5173E@att.net> Lapadary@aol.com wrote: > > You are talking about friction of rubber on the road, no more, no less. I > want you or Derek to prove something exist without using any of your 5 > senses. We cannot see ultraviolet light, yet when can see the fluorescence it causes. We can use instruments to measure its intensity and wavelength. But we can never perceive it directly. We use our five senses to detect the results provided by instruments that we have devised as "translators," but this interpretation of instrumental results is not the same as perceiving the phenomenon directly. The same goes for energies in the Bravais lattices and space groups of silicon dioxide: there is a lot going on there, including piezoelectric phenomenon, but there is no proof or evidence that wearing it around your neck has any beneficial effect. If a "healer" wants to assert that a cure does in fact work, at least in the USA, then they must have their cure FDA approved; otherwise the ad must carry disclaimers or be worded such that it does not imply certain absolutes. And if someone wants to prove that dirt "recharges" the "power" in crystals, then the onus is on them to prove it, not on me to disprove it. As distasteful as I find so-called "New Age" theories, I hold that a person has a right to those beliefs (as Voltaire reportedly stated, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it), however I do not recognize the right of a vendor to make a claim that cannot be proven regarding the efficacy of a product. As an aside, I'd like to see hard proof of all the herbal remedies, laundry detergents, car tires, and any other advertising claims . . . but that's another story. If a dealer wants to sell dirt, he is free to sell dirt. For him to claim that the dirt does something it does not and cannot do, that is fraud, abuse, and predation. Or look at it this way: if a devoted Catholic wants to go to Lourdes and drink the water (I presume it is free), that is their choice. If, however, a vendor dips water out of his toilet, bottles it, and sells it as Lourdes water for $500 per bottle, that is an abomination. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 18:56:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Sep 7 17:56:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks? In-Reply-To: <99.2c2c01b2.2aabe4ae@aol.com> Message-ID: That is correct, with the possible exception of tidal forces. I believe tidal forces will slowly dissipate the energy in a system. If the two bodies were dimensionless points in a frictionless system then they would orbit forever. The difference in the atomic model is the fact that the electrons and the nucleus are charged particles. Bryan > -----Original Message----- > > I disagree with this statement because Newton's laws also say > that angular > momentum, in the absence of friction, is conserved. Thus if a moon and a > planet were spherical, solid-crystalline bodies in a perfect vacuum, one > would orbit the other forever. They would not slow down. The > force of gravity > in this case acts at all times perpendicular to the motion so no > work is done > and no energy consumed. > > Gene Hartstein > > > > In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:14:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes: > > > > Grant, using your senses will get you to the point where you can prove > > beyond the shadow of a doubt that an atom cannot exist! > > Any object that propagates on a curved trajectory looses energy > because the > > laws of Newton dictate it. > > It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion. > > Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly > loose energy > > (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus. > > Clearly and in stark contrast with our sensory perception this does not > > happen. > > Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Sep 7 19:12:00 2002 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Sep 7 18:12:00 2002 Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents Message-ID: <45.1cf08175.2aabfdc0@aol.com> 
As with delicate fossils, the best way to clean minerals of household dust is 
to display them in a dust proof enclosure so they don;t get dirty in the 
first place. Households are notorious for greasy dust from cooking and other 
activities. Why take the chance in the first place with really good 
specimens?

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep  7 19:22:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sat Sep  7 18:22:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
Message-ID: <57.112f2072.2aac002c@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/7/02 5:20:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
morningstar@att.net writes:
> 
> We cannot see ultraviolet light, yet when can see the fluorescence it
> causes.  We can use instruments to measure its intensity and
> wavelength.  But we can never perceive it directly.  We use our five
> senses to detect the results provided by instruments that we have
> devised as "translators," but this interpretation of instrumental
> results is not the same as perceiving the phenomenon directly.
> 
But you are using your senses to interpet the results. I asked the question 
because Derek said I was missing something that is not perceivable by human 
senses and is not understandable by humans. I just want one example. Again, 
I'm quoting his letter below for reference. However, this is my last reply to 
the thread. 

Grant

       "Yes, Grant.  I think you are missing something.  Missing is the 
realization
that all that exists may not be perceivable by human senses. In fact I would
guess that the vast amount of existence is not humanly understandable.  We
may catch glimmerings and more glimmerings.  That's what has happened with
scientific discovery over the years.  That which was impossible became
commonplace.  But why would we possibly think that everything that can
exist, and I'm using fairly simple terminology here, only exists within the
realm of human senses to record?  Surely with all the vastness of
possibility out there in the universe, there are other "senses" if you will.
I'm not saying I know what they are.  I'm saying that it seems unlikely that
we, homo sapiens sapiens, can be all knowing and all seeing, to steal a
phrase from another context.  If we can't, then we must assume that we have
huge limitations.

So we must speculate and not assume a homocentric universe.  Perhaps
meditation, logic, thought and imagination can help.  Personnally I only use
the latter three, however even they have vast limitations because they
depend on the same observability as the senses. I guess I would have to say
that thinking between the spaces about what is not expressed in our
accustomed ways is more profitable.  What I mean is we tend to think about
the observable.  We think about what we see.  What are we not observing?
What seems to be missing?  Why is there no Unified Theory? Because there is
much missing?  Why are there objects that some believe seem to date before
the big bang?  Because there is much missing.

Why do we think we can possibly know everything from this little backwater
corner of the Universe?

Derek
end of quote


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep  7 19:44:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sat Sep  7 18:44:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: 

Well..because..this is the only glass/mirror cabinet that I have that is 
large enough to hold my collection, I have a fairly large amount of minerals. 
 It is not near my kitchen, it's on the lowest level of the house, so does 
not get bothered by kitchen fumes, but it does get dusty.  Not much I can do 
about it at this point.  I appreciate your replying to my question tho!  
Thank you!
                                                  Jackie

In a message dated 9/7/02 9:12:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FOSSILNUT@aol.com 
writes:


> As with delicate fossils, the best way to clean minerals of household dust 
> is 
> to display them in a dust proof enclosure so they don;t get dirty in the 
> first place. Households are notorious for greasy dust from cooking and 
> other 
> activities. Why take the chance in the first place with really good 
> specimens?
> _______________________________________________



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep  7 20:26:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sat Sep  7 19:26:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: <17969626-C286-11D6-B958-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>
Message-ID: 

Well I found a decomposition curve for Calcium Oxalate, at 250 deg C it
gives up its water of hydration and around 500 deg C it is converted to
Calcium Carbonate. Fluorite has a melting point around 1400 deg C and Quartz
is higher than that, so in theory you could bake it to convert the oxalate
to carbonate. The Carbonate can be dissolved with Hydrochloric acid.

It's not some thing to try with a valuable specimen however. And these
temperatures are well above the home cooking oven temps so a muffle furnace
would be needed. 500 C is around 900 F.

Ah Ha, I thought I recalled something else. Oxalic acid, in acidic solution,
reacts with Potassium Permangante to form CO2  other products. It's possible
that you might be able to destroy the Oxalate with KMnO4. Again this would
call for experimentatation with scrap pieces, a bit of Mn+2 is supposed to
catalyze the reaction. You can buy the Permanganate at drug stores, keep it
away from sulfuric acid at all costs.

Peroxide is another possibility.

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
>
> yes it does. calcium oxalate i was told but not told how to remove it.
> any suggestions?
> Kris
> On Saturday, September 7, 2002, at 07:45 AM, horstwindisch wrote:
>
> > Does the above method (oxalic Acid with tap water) ring a bell?



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep  7 21:48:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Sat Sep  7 20:48:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: <20020907183717.HWAE1374.fed1mtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: 

i only decided to sphere cuz it was so huge i knew not else what to do, 
but yes it would. i have other pieces, plates, that would be nice to 
display!
Kris
On Saturday, September 7, 2002, at 11:37 AM,  wrote:

> Kris,
> Question, the piece you intended to sphere, did you cut it to suare it 
> for the sphere machine? Was it uncoated at the cuts? Would not the 
> sphere process eliminate the coating while grinding?
> Teresa
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 05:01:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Sun Sep  8 04:01:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
References: <184.df88dcc.2aabe8cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c25727$e05c94a0$1e9f77d5@pandora.be>

Absolutely not!
Charged particles that change direction in a magnetic field "shake off"
energy. In some cases enough to cause emission of visible light. This is
known as synchrotron radation.
Nothing to do with friction... (however it would count for part of the
energy loss.)

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?


| In a message dated 9/7/02 3:47:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
| axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes:
|
| > You do loos energy driving in a circle faster than you do in a straight
| > line.
| >
| You are talking about friction of rubber on the road, no more, no less. I
| want you or Derek to prove something exist without using any of your 5
| senses. You have to prove it without seeing, feeling, hearing, smelling,
or
| touching. Without one of those you are left with, "I think, therefore I
am."
| And that only proves your existance, not mine, and not some other "stuff"
| that humans cannot comphend.
|
| Grant
|
|
| --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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| ---
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| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 06:00:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 05:00:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <4a.1135bd81.2aac9597@aol.com>

No, Don't do it. The permanganate becomes manganese dioxide and nice dingy 
black coating. 



In a message dated 9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jbryankramer@msn.com writes:


> Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents 
> Date:9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:jbryankramer@msn.com
> Reply-to:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> To:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> Sent from the Internet 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I found a decomposition curve for Calcium Oxalate, at 250 deg C it
> gives up its water of hydration and around 500 deg C it is converted to
> Calcium Carbonate. Fluorite has a melting point around 1400 deg C and 
> Quartz
> is higher than that, so in theory you could bake it to convert the oxalate
> to carbonate. The Carbonate can be dissolved with Hydrochloric acid.
> 
> It's not some thing to try with a valuable specimen however. And these
> temperatures are well above the home cooking oven temps so a muffle furnace
> would be needed. 500 C is around 900 F.
> 
> Ah Ha, I thought I recalled something else. Oxalic acid, in acidic 
> solution,
> reacts with Potassium Permangante to form CO2  other products. It's 
> possible
> that you might be able to destroy the Oxalate with KMnO4. Again this would
> call for experimentatation with scrap pieces, a bit of Mn+2 is supposed to
> catalyze the reaction. You can buy the Permanganate at drug stores, keep it
> away from sulfuric acid at all costs.
> 
> Peroxide is another possibility.
> 
> Bryan



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 07:18:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep  8 06:18:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7B4DD6.4F2C6378@earthlink.net>

Some times I use the canned, pressurized air to clean my minerals.  You can get
a stream of air from a gentle puff to a blast.  Also, there used to be, and I
still have ont, a lens cleaner which had a bulb and a brush attached.  You could
brush, squeeze the bulb, dislodge the dust and blow it away. Very soft but
effective.

Walt

CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:

> Well..because..this is the only glass/mirror cabinet that I have that is
> large enough to hold my collection, I have a fairly large amount of minerals.
>  It is not near my kitchen, it's on the lowest level of the house, so does
> not get bothered by kitchen fumes, but it does get dusty.  Not much I can do
> about it at this point.  I appreciate your replying to my question tho!
> Thank you!
>                                                   Jackie
>
> In a message dated 9/7/02 9:12:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, FOSSILNUT@aol.com
> writes:
>
> > As with delicate fossils, the best way to clean minerals of household dust
> > is
> > to display them in a dust proof enclosure so they don;t get dirty in the
> > first place. Households are notorious for greasy dust from cooking and
> > other
> > activities. Why take the chance in the first place with really good
> > specimens?
> > _______________________________________________
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---
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> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 07:27:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sun Sep  8 06:27:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: <4a.1135bd81.2aac9597@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

What about hydrogen peroxide then? I'll have to try some of this out in the
lab Monday.

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----

>
> No, Don't do it. The permanganate becomes manganese dioxide and
> nice dingy
> black coating.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>
>
> > Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> > Date:9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > From:jbryankramer@msn.com
> > Reply-to: HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
> e.com
> > To: HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
> e.com
> > Sent from the Internet
> >
> >
> >
> > Well I found a decomposition curve for Calcium Oxalate, at 250 deg C it
> > gives up its water of hydration and around 500 deg C it is converted to
> > Calcium Carbonate. Fluorite has a melting point around 1400 deg C and
> > Quartz
> > is higher than that, so in theory you could bake it to convert
> the oxalate
> > to carbonate. The Carbonate can be dissolved with Hydrochloric acid.
> >
> > It's not some thing to try with a valuable specimen however. And these
> > temperatures are well above the home cooking oven temps so a
> muffle furnace
> > would be needed. 500 C is around 900 F.
> >
> > Ah Ha, I thought I recalled something else. Oxalic acid, in acidic
> > solution,
> > reacts with Potassium Permangante to form CO2  other products. It's
> > possible
> > that you might be able to destroy the Oxalate with KMnO4. Again
> this would
> > call for experimentatation with scrap pieces, a bit of Mn+2 is
> supposed to
> > catalyze the reaction. You can buy the Permanganate at drug
> stores, keep it
> > away from sulfuric acid at all costs.
> >
> > Peroxide is another possibility.
> >
> > Bryan
>
>
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 07:40:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Sun Sep  8 06:40:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
References: <163C898E.2B820297.02180873@aol.com> <002401c2545b$3f847e40$e7ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D768744.6C6AE7FC@earthlink.net> <004601c254c7$f42844a0$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D778F48.BF1A2AFB@earthlink.net> <00a601c2550c$d79aa540$1bae77d5@pandora.be> <3D783065.D55DDAE2@cox.net> <004701c255b3$5e12ea00$979e77d5@pandora.be> <3D78C7C2.40B1EDA9@cox.net> <015e01c255c3$ae53b3e0$3150fea9@win98> <001b01c255ef$0ddf06e0$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3> <004701c2567e$f459f780$42ae77d5@pandora.be> <3D7A7D22.78ED6CB0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002901c2573e$078f0ec0$bb9d77d5@pandora.be>

| Yet, some how, some way, it was all perceived in the mind of man.
|
| Walt

That is a wise thing to say, Walt... but also a possible onset for new
turmoil on the discussion list
;-))))
Some of us may feel that the chapter of their knowledge of the universe
(perhaps better: their idea of what the universe is like or should be like)
cannot be finalised without introducing some powers to fill in the gaps.
The world that is left when we remove all the dirt that we used to fill
those gaps may be far clearer than it is now, it would however be a far less
romantic place to dwell in.

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?


| Yet, some how, some way, it was all perceived in the mind of man.
|
| Walt
|
| Axel Emmermann wrote:
|
| > I was going to leave the topic but this one.... I just have to rebut you
| > statement.
| > Sorry 'bout this but:
| >
| > | Has anyone noticed that all science is based entirely on our
perceptions?
| > | We have only the evidence of our eyes, ears, mouths, noses and skin.
Yet
| > we
| > | base the entirety of existence on those sense organs and
magnifications of
| > | them that we've managed to invent in recent years.
| >
| > If this were true, we would still be using the Classical Mechanics
instead
| > of quantum mechanics. The Apollo capsules would have missed the moon by
| > several kilometers (or would be splattered all over the place, for that
| > matter) due to minute calculation errors and nobody would know why!
| > Einstein PREDICTED the curvature of space which was later proven to
exist.
| > We make theories that predict the behaviour of the universe and then we
| > often have to wait for decades for the technology to prove them. (Bohr,
| > Perlemutter, Hawking, ... I can give you dozens of examples)
| >
| > I believe that the first step of your argumentation is flawed.
| >
| > | We have many postulates that suggest that there is much, like "dark
| > matter",
| > | that we cannot perceive but yet exists.  Science IS a belief system
based
| > | exclusively on the extensions of our senses and the conceptions of our
| > | brains.  But humans are very limited beings with perception based only
on
| > | observations taken from the surface of, or very near one minor planet
in a
| > | minor solar system.  There has got to be a lot more out there than may
| > ever
| > | be found by us. We know that yet we always come back to the proof
being
| > | based on the evidence of our own senses.
| >
| > This paragraph is also very biased towards the idea that we are so
| > insignificant and ignorant that we MUST have missed all possible clues
that
| > there truly is a "twilight zone" out there... (tuudududu tuudududu ;-)
| > I refuse to believe that. We humans, as a race, have done amazing
things! We
| > are on the verge of deciphering the very foundations of the universe as
well
| > as the foundations of life.
| >
| > | I do not embrace the metaphysical properties of rocks.  I do not sell
| > based
| > | on that either.  On the other hand, one of the folks who believes that
| > there
| > | is power there, pointed out once that the electrical force, the atomic
| > | force, that helps form a crystal is still in that crystal.  If some
would
| > | like to believe this, that is their belief system.  Oh well....
| >
| > The forces that form a crystal are called chemical bonds and crystals
bonds.
| > They are both manifestations of the electromagnetic power, one of the
| > fundamental powers in the universe. There is nothing metaphysical about
that
| > power. It makes the sun shine (with some help from 2 other forces,
gravity
| > and the strong interaction) and doe lots of other non-mysterious things.
| > If you really want to explore the frontier between philosophy and
physics,
| > then there is a book that you should read... It is called "The Dancing
Wu Li
| > Masters" and it's written by Gary Zukav.
| > The writer is a reporter who does serious investigations about that
| > borderline supernatural stuff that evokes such strong feelings in all of
| > us.....
| > There's plenty of chance to disagree with me after you read this book...
but
| > I think it will profoundly change your views without shaking your world.
| > There still is mystery out there... only, real mystery instead of
| > make-believe.
| >
| > Respectful, always....
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| >
| > | ----- Original Message -----
| > | From: "Stuart Schmitt" 
| > | To: 
| > | Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 9:37 AM
| > | Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | Teresa please....
| > |
| > | > The entire discussion about Rocks, Crystals, Stones, is really not
about
| > | > what one believes or does not believe. It was first a question of
| > | > ethics. Throughout all the answers that has not changed at all. I
| > | > believe for the most part we all decry (strongly disapprove of) the
| > chosen
| > | marketing scheme of
| > | > taking absolute advantage of a person who is simply buying a
specific
| > | > item because of their belief in its properties (uniqueness or
beauty).
| > |
| > | > Our love of the stone for its beauty (properties) is affronted by
those
| > | who attach
| > | > mystical properties (or scientific data) to it and grossly overprice
it
| > to
| > | their financial
| > | > benefit. It is all too easy to hide a bit of envy over the success
of
| > | > that venture vs. the difficulty of selling a far better stone at
| > | > considerably less to collectors (of all kinds and for all reasons or
| > | beliefs) not of the same mindset.
| > |
| > | > Bottom line is that (all sellers are)  fad following opportunist
lacking
| > a
| > | > conscience. We all see/know many of that ilk in other business
ventures.
| > | > We all wait for the day "they get theirs." Doesn't always happen.
They
| > | > just go along making money fully unaware of your negative thoughts
about
| > | > them.
| > |
| > | Are our beliefs shaped by our experiences, or do we merely experience
what
| > | we believe?
| > |
| > | Which comes first, the scientific data or the belief that the
scientific
| > | data exists?
| > |
| > | With appreciation & gratitude,
| > | Stuart Schmitt
| > | Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine
| > | www.arcrystalmine.com
| > | 60 Mary's Eagle Trail
| > | Mount Ida, AR 71957
| > | (870) 867-2443
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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| > |   text/html
| > | ---
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | Subscription Services:
| > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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| > |
| >
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 08:01:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Sun Sep  8 07:01:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
References: <99.2c2c01b2.2aabe4ae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c25740$f9394a40$bb9d77d5@pandora.be>

True Glen, but Newton's laws are classical mechanics.
They do not apply to the realm of the subatomic nor to the "extra large"
situations of outer space ;-)))).
Newton built his laws upon extrapolations of what his senses told him and
should therefore not be used for matters that lie beyond our sensory
perception.

|Thus if a moon and a
| planet were spherical, solid-crystalline bodies in a perfect vacuum, one
| would orbit the other forever.

No they most certainly would not. The moon would (speaking of non-elastic
celestial bodies) approach the planet up to the point where the tidal forces
would overwhelm the gravitational cohesion of that moon. At that moment, the
moon would break up into pieces. In reality, our moon is slowly moving away
from us. I don't recall the exact process but I believe it has something to
do with tidal friction...

The earth loses the equivalent of a few thousand watts of energy each year
by revolving around the sun. We DO get closer to our star but the effect is
so small that it would take several times the present age of the universe to
bring them together.

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?


| I disagree with this statement because Newton's laws also say that angular
| momentum, in the absence of friction, is conserved. Thus if a moon and a
| planet were spherical, solid-crystalline bodies in a perfect vacuum, one
| would orbit the other forever. They would not slow down. The force of
gravity
| in this case acts at all times perpendicular to the motion so no work is
done
| and no energy consumed.
|
| Gene Hartstein
|
|
|
| In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:14:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
| axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes:
|
|
| > Grant, using your senses will get you to the point where you can prove
| > beyond the shadow of a doubt that an atom cannot exist!
| > Any object that propagates on a curved trajectory looses energy because
the
| > laws of Newton dictate it.
| > It simply takes energy to change the direction of an object in motion.
| > Any electron revolving around an atom would therefore rapidly loose
energy
| > (speed) and fall into the atomic nucleus.
| > Clearly and in stark contrast with our sensory perception this does not
| > happen.
| > Your senses will try to trick you more often than you 'd like to believe
|
|
|
| --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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| ---
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| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 08:24:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Sun Sep  8 07:24:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
References: <184.df88dcc.2aabe8cb@aol.com> <3D7A97C2.45D5173E@att.net>
Message-ID: <004501c25744$442281e0$bb9d77d5@pandora.be>

| Or look at it this way: if a devoted Catholic wants to go to Lourdes and
| drink the water (I presume it is free), that is their choice.  If,
| however, a vendor dips water out of his toilet, bottles it, and sells it
| as Lourdes water for $500 per bottle, that is an abomination.
|
| Don

If he sold the REAL Lourdes water for more than the price of the bottle and
a fair fee for his trouble it would still be an abomination. You either
believe the "healing water" is a gift of God or you don't. Making a  large
profits of it is objectionable either way.
Of course, this is my conviction as an atheist! Relegious people may have
other views on this, I wouldn't know.
People who went to Lourdes told me that the water is sold in plastic
Madonna-shaped bottles along with a zillion other pseudo-religious
paraphernalia. And it's NOT free.

Concerning the rest of your message:
This would have taken me a month to formulate (depending on where you live
in Belgium, English comes after Dutch and French or German and French in
school. This discussion is good practice for my English ;-)))))... Thanks
for saying it so clearly Don.

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don H" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?


|
| Lapadary@aol.com wrote:
| >
| > You are talking about friction of rubber on the road, no more, no less.
I
| > want you or Derek to prove something exist without using any of your 5
| > senses.
|
| We cannot see ultraviolet light, yet when can see the fluorescence it
| causes.  We can use instruments to measure its intensity and
| wavelength.  But we can never perceive it directly.  We use our five
| senses to detect the results provided by instruments that we have
| devised as "translators," but this interpretation of instrumental
| results is not the same as perceiving the phenomenon directly.
|
| The same goes for energies in the Bravais lattices and space groups of
| silicon dioxide: there is a lot going on there, including piezoelectric
| phenomenon, but there is no proof or evidence that wearing it around
| your neck has any beneficial effect.  If a "healer" wants to assert that
| a cure does in fact work, at least in the USA, then they must have their
| cure FDA approved; otherwise the ad must carry disclaimers or be worded
| such that it does not imply certain absolutes.  And if someone wants to
| prove that dirt "recharges" the "power" in crystals, then the onus is on
| them to prove it, not on me to disprove it.  As distasteful as I find
| so-called "New Age" theories, I hold that a person has a right to those
| beliefs (as Voltaire reportedly stated, "I disagree with what you say,
| but I will defend to the death your right to say it), however I do not
| recognize the right of a vendor to make a claim that cannot be proven
| regarding the efficacy of a product.  As an aside, I'd like to see hard
| proof of all the herbal remedies, laundry detergents, car tires, and any
| other advertising claims . . . but that's another story.
|
| If a dealer wants to sell dirt, he is free to sell dirt.  For him to
| claim that the dirt does something it does not and cannot do, that is
| fraud, abuse, and predation.
|
| Or look at it this way: if a devoted Catholic wants to go to Lourdes and
| drink the water (I presume it is free), that is their choice.  If,
| however, a vendor dips water out of his toilet, bottles it, and sells it
| as Lourdes water for $500 per bottle, that is an abomination.
|
| Don
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 09:16:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 08:16:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Flat Lap
Message-ID: <86.20152611.2aacc37f@aol.com>

Anyone have any written instructions on the proper/recommended use of using a 
Flat Lap? I have a 15 inch Hustler Flat Lap. How much grit to use, how much 
water etc.. 



For now and till then,
JOHN


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 12:36:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 11:36:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <49.23454266.2aacf27d@aol.com>

Hey Walt..that's a great idea, the canned air..I have cans of that lying 
around here for my pc.  I also use a "blush" brush to dust them..long 
bristles and very soft, I use them on my tiny crystal'd minerals.
Thanks for the idea of the canned air!  
                                                Jackie

In a message dated 9/8/02 9:18:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
geologo@earthlink.net writes:


> Some times I use the canned, pressurized air to clean my minerals.  You can 
> get
> a stream of air from a gentle puff to a blast.  Also, there used to be, and 
> I
> still have ont, a lens cleaner which had a bulb and a brush attached.  You 
> could
> brush, squeeze the bulb, dislodge the dust and blow it away. Very soft but
> effective.
> 
> Walt



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 13:07:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Doug Mitchell)
Date: Sun Sep  8 12:07:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms
Message-ID: <200209081506_MC3-1-F06-1D0B@compuserve.com>

Hi, folks--
Nathan wrote:
>> "... at a location near the Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. ... the 
most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms
with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter.  In
normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet
they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce.  In just looking at the crystal
form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the
fluorescence has me puzzled." 

Both beryl and apatite have been known to produce blue fluorescence on
occasion.  While it is more common in apatite than beryl, beryl has been
reported fluorescing blue from Haddam Neck, Connecticut (Mineralogical
Record 23,1).  I have seen no reports of the blue-fluorescing apatite from
Connecticut in particular, but it is not at all clear that I would have if
it is there.  The nearest blue-fluorescing apatite I have seen reported is
from Quebec.

Given that scheelite is well known to be present from Trumbull, I would
consider the possibility that scheelite inclusions might be responsible for
the fluorescence.  Many scheelites fluoresce yellow under midwave UV,
though I have not checked the Trumbull scheelites for this.  If someone out
there were to try the Trumbull scheelite, find it yellow in midwave UV, and
then check your hexagonal prisms with midwave, it might be informative.

Other than that, I fear fluorescence is not going to help much with this
particular distinction.

Before discarding carbonates like witherite, and for that matter calcite,
bear in mind that a later generation of mineralization can easily add them
among the more expected minerals.  I have observed scheelite associated
with calcite, and you are definitely in scheelite country.  In my
experience, when carbonates fluoresce blue, they tend to have a strong
phosphorescence, which I do not see in my blue-fluorescing Chinese beryl,
and do not recall offhand from blue-fluorescing apatites.

--Doug
mailto: dmitchell@compuserve.com

Doug Mitchell,
Fluorescent Mineral Society, Inc.
http://www.uvminerals.org
    

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 14:10:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep  8 13:10:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <49.23454266.2aacf27d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7BAE97.964109AD@earthlink.net>

Jackie

I went out and bought a bunch of great camel hair brushes for my minerals and my
slides.  Use them on both.  I came home to find my Ex and Step Daughters had
usurped them for applying make up.  Damn, can't people realize that make up
ain't everything.  Gotta have some rocks and Minerals now and then thrown into
the mix.


I use the air on my PC also, but for slides, to dislodge things stuck in cracks,
etc.  It is for my slides also.


Walt

CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:

> Hey Walt..that's a great idea, the canned air..I have cans of that lying
> around here for my pc.  I also use a "blush" brush to dust them..long
> bristles and very soft, I use them on my tiny crystal'd minerals.
> Thanks for the idea of the canned air!
>                                                 Jackie
>
> In a message dated 9/8/02 9:18:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> geologo@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Some times I use the canned, pressurized air to clean my minerals.  You can
> > get
> > a stream of air from a gentle puff to a blast.  Also, there used to be, and
> > I
> > still have ont, a lens cleaner which had a bulb and a brush attached.  You
> > could
> > brush, squeeze the bulb, dislodge the dust and blow it away. Very soft but
> > effective.
> >
> > Walt
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
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> ---
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> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 14:28:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 13:28:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
Message-ID: <87.20c5e18b.2aad0caa@aol.com>

Energy, in a perfect system is not consumed when one body revolves around 
another attracted by gravity. If you remember the original statement, I was 
refuting someone's claim that energy was consumed because the moon travels 
around the earth rather than in a straight line, and that somehow it violated 
Newtonian mechanics. It does neither. In the case of real celestial bodies 
the rotation moves tides, dirt, and perhaps the fluid cores of the bodies 
because they ae not single solid crystals, but behave more like fluids in 
which the differential forces on each body cause movement in the body. 
Mechanical energy is lost as heat. We also know that space is not a perfect 
vacuum so bodies moving through space will collide with many small particles, 
much like the resistance imparted when we try to fly through our atmosphere. 
But all these phenomena, including the breakup of a moon by gravitational 
forces are explained, if not precisely calculated,  by Newtonian physics. 

Of course once things approach the speed of light or get really small or 
really big, all bets are off.

Gene



In a message dated 9/8/2002 10:02:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes:


> True Glen, but Newton's laws are classical mechanics.
> They do not apply to the realm of the subatomic nor to the "extra large"
> situations of outer space ;-)))).
> Newton built his laws upon extrapolations of what his senses told him and
> should therefore not be used for matters that lie beyond our sensory
> perception.
> 
> |Thus if a moon and a
> | planet were spherical, solid-crystalline bodies in a perfect vacuum, one
> | would orbit the other forever.
> 
> No they most certainly would not. The moon would (speaking of non-elastic
> celestial bodies) approach the planet up to the point where the tidal 
> forces
> would overwhelm the gravitational cohesion of that moon. At that moment, 
> the
> moon would break up into pieces. In reality, our moon is slowly moving away
> from us. I don't recall the exact process but I believe it has something to
> do with tidal friction...
> 
> The earth loses the equivalent of a few thousand watts of energy each year
> by revolving around the sun. We DO get closer to our star but the effect is
> so small that it would take several times the present age of the universe 
> to
> bring them together.



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 16:04:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Sun Sep  8 15:04:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
References: <87.20c5e18b.2aad0caa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001501c25784$6d4170a0$bb9d77d5@pandora.be>

Hi Gene,

| But all these phenomena, including the breakup of a moon by gravitational
| forces are explained, if not precisely calculated,  by Newtonian physics.

The distance at which this happens is called Roche's limit... I seem to
recall vaguely ;-)))
You are right that energy is not consumed when one body revolves around
another attracted by gravity.
In fact, the moon is NOT following a curved path around the earth. It is
following a STRAIGHT path throught space that is curved by the earth's mass.
Quite different from the electron-analogy.
But still: if planet and moon (or star and planet) were points without
dimension but with mass (for practical purposes you can think of them as
singularities) revolving around each other, they would still be getting
closer to each other. Relativity theory predicts that masses that exert
gravity on one another have to emit gravitational energy (wave phenomena
called gravitons). Any system of heavy bodies revolving around each other
thus looses energy inevitably.
In reality, the effect of friction and tidal forces are far more visible and
they cloack the smaller quantummechanical effects.

| Of course once things approach the speed of light or get really small or
| really big, all bets are off.

A good example would be: if you walk through a door you will unintentionally
change direction ever so slightly. This is the phenomenon we call
interference. Just like a photon going through a slit, your path will be
bent. After walking a few thousand lightyears, you would notice that you
have strayed from your course by several centimeters. It is remarkable,
maybe unbelievable, but try it and thou shalt see!

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?


| Energy, in a perfect system is not consumed when one body revolves around
| another attracted by gravity. If you remember the original statement, I
was
| refuting someone's claim that energy was consumed because the moon travels
| around the earth rather than in a straight line, and that somehow it
violated
| Newtonian mechanics. It does neither. In the case of real celestial bodies
| the rotation moves tides, dirt, and perhaps the fluid cores of the bodies
| because they ae not single solid crystals, but behave more like fluids in
| which the differential forces on each body cause movement in the body.
| Mechanical energy is lost as heat. We also know that space is not a
perfect
| vacuum so bodies moving through space will collide with many small
particles,
| much like the resistance imparted when we try to fly through our
atmosphere.
| But all these phenomena, including the breakup of a moon by gravitational
| forces are explained, if not precisely calculated,  by Newtonian physics.
|
| Of course once things approach the speed of light or get really small or
| really big, all bets are off.
|
| Gene
|
|
|
| In a message dated 9/8/2002 10:02:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
| axel.emmermann@pandora.be writes:
|
|
| > True Glen, but Newton's laws are classical mechanics.
| > They do not apply to the realm of the subatomic nor to the "extra large"
| > situations of outer space ;-)))).
| > Newton built his laws upon extrapolations of what his senses told him
and
| > should therefore not be used for matters that lie beyond our sensory
| > perception.
| >
| > |Thus if a moon and a
| > | planet were spherical, solid-crystalline bodies in a perfect vacuum,
one
| > | would orbit the other forever.
| >
| > No they most certainly would not. The moon would (speaking of
non-elastic
| > celestial bodies) approach the planet up to the point where the tidal
| > forces
| > would overwhelm the gravitational cohesion of that moon. At that moment,
| > the
| > moon would break up into pieces. In reality, our moon is slowly moving
away
| > from us. I don't recall the exact process but I believe it has something
to
| > do with tidal friction...
| >
| > The earth loses the equivalent of a few thousand watts of energy each
year
| > by revolving around the sun. We DO get closer to our star but the effect
is
| > so small that it would take several times the present age of the
universe
| > to
| > bring them together.
|
|
|
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| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 16:58:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 15:58:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: 

Walt..bite your tongue..never ever say makeup isn't everything to a woman!!  
Eeeek!!!   But..we do have some great brushes for other things than makeup!  
Well..the brushes and the air are still good ideas!  Thanks again Walt :)
                                       Jackie

In a message dated 9/8/02 4:10:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
geologo@earthlink.net writes:


> Jackie
> 
> I went out and bought a bunch of great camel hair brushes for my minerals 
> and my
> slides.  Use them on both.  I came home to find my Ex and Step Daughters 
> had
> usurped them for applying make up.  Damn, can't people realize that make up
> ain't everything.  Gotta have some rocks and Minerals now and then thrown 
> into
> the mix.



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 18:21:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer)
Date: Sun Sep  8 17:21:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7BE95E.2050708@ptd.net>

I was going to weigh in on this too.. but the hexagonal throws me...
Yes scheelite by fluorescent characteristics but not crystal form; 
unless stacked tabular that may not be truly hexagonal. I was wondering 
if with all the time and exposure that this site must have been through, 
whether you don't have an apatite that is pseudoing to scheelite. I have 
found apatite to be quite (what's the word I'm looking for???) prone to 
pseudomorphing, and the calcium component of sheelite would play right 
into this...  I have some apatites that where pseudo'd to turquoise of 
all things; so; to say it isn't possible...????

Catspaw Minerals wrote:

>Nate...
>
>Are you sure you haven't found some scheelite?  That location is famous for
>it, and the blue-while fl. is what it shines...
>
>GcB
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>
>
>  
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 19:17:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 18:17:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 9/8/02 5:22:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, buff1@ptd.net 
writes:

>  I have some apatites that where pseudo'd to turquoise of 
> all things; so; to say it isn't possible...????

Actually, in a book I own (Turquoise - Gem of the Centruies, by Oscar T. 
Branson) there's a picture of a turquoise "crystal." It is identified as a 
pseudomorph after something, probabily apitite, from the Pilot Mountain Mine, 
Nevada.

Amazing things can happen when seen on a geoligical time scale.

Grant


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 20:31:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Sun Sep  8 19:31:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <49.23454266.2aacf27d@aol.com> <3D7BAE97.964109AD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D7C07AB.6EFF@Tomaszewski.net>

Dr. Walter S. Bowser wrote:
> 
> Jackie
> 
> I went out and bought a bunch of great camel hair brushes for my minerals and my
> slides.  Use them on both.  I came home to find my Ex and Step Daughters had
> usurped them for applying make up.  Damn, can't people realize that make up
> ain't everything.  Gotta have some rocks and Minerals now and then thrown into
> the mix.

Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
components of makeup for as long as it has been used.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 21:17:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Sun Sep  8 20:17:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA
Message-ID: <87F95F28-C3A2-11D6-AD9A-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>

Apparently, Greenwater, WA, has some huge jasper and agate seams. I was 
told that all i needed to remember was FS7220 and 28 mile creek. And I 
should see jasper boulders all over. After a day of driving around I 
managed to locate FS7220 but it seems that 28mile creek runs across 
FS7224, not 7220. Hmmm. And no boulders. Any advice or 
directions-givers out there in the rockhounding community that could 
shed some light on the area for me? Even my gazeteer map has a symbol 
and explanation that the area is known for jasper and thats right on 
the FS7220 road. sheesh.
Thanks,
Kris


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 21:19:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Sun Sep  8 20:19:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

does this iply that h202 may clean that white calcium oxalate off my 
flourite? that would be simple!
- Kris
On Sunday, September 8, 2002, at 06:26 AM, J Bryan Kramer wrote:

> What about hydrogen peroxide then? I'll have to try some of this out 
> in the
> lab Monday.
>
> Bryan
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>
>> No, Don't do it. The permanganate becomes manganese dioxide and
>> nice dingy
>> black coating.
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>>
>>
>>> Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>>> Date:9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>> From:jbryankramer@msn.com
>>> Reply-to:> HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
>> e.com
>>> To:> HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
>> e.com
>>> Sent from the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well I found a decomposition curve for Calcium Oxalate, at 250 deg C 
>>> it
>>> gives up its water of hydration and around 500 deg C it is converted 
>>> to
>>> Calcium Carbonate. Fluorite has a melting point around 1400 deg C and
>>> Quartz
>>> is higher than that, so in theory you could bake it to convert
>> the oxalate
>>> to carbonate. The Carbonate can be dissolved with Hydrochloric acid.
>>>
>>> It's not some thing to try with a valuable specimen however. And 
>>> these
>>> temperatures are well above the home cooking oven temps so a
>> muffle furnace
>>> would be needed. 500 C is around 900 F.
>>>
>>> Ah Ha, I thought I recalled something else. Oxalic acid, in acidic
>>> solution,
>>> reacts with Potassium Permangante to form CO2  other products. It's
>>> possible
>>> that you might be able to destroy the Oxalate with KMnO4. Again
>> this would
>>> call for experimentatation with scrap pieces, a bit of Mn+2 is
>> supposed to
>>> catalyze the reaction. You can buy the Permanganate at drug
>> stores, keep it
>>> away from sulfuric acid at all costs.
>>>
>>> Peroxide is another possibility.
>>>
>>> Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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>> Subscription Services:
>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 22:35:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep  8 21:35:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA
Message-ID: <19b.84a0429.2aad7ee6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/8/02 8:17:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
kriswmurray1@mac.com writes:

>  Hmmm. And no boulders. Any advice or directions-givers out there in the 
> rockhounding community that could shed some light on the area for me?

I can't help with directions but I can say, you are not the first rockhound 
to waste a weekend searching but not finding. Last year I drove up to Oregon. 
I made a big circle; from Prineville, to fossil, to Madras. I stopped at 
several well-known rockhounding localities.  Fossil was the only one that was 
productive. 

Richardson Ranch had abundant rock but it was for sale by the pound. Fossil 
was a good site but I'm more of a rockhound than a fossil collector. I found 
some pet wood in the shale, plius several fossils. However, I could have 
found more cutting rough on almost any dirt roads in California than I found 
on that whole trip. It was a nice drive and now I know where I don't need to 
look. I'm sure there are some good sites left but I don't think they are 
around Prineville.

Grant


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep  8 22:42:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Sun Sep  8 21:42:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA
In-Reply-To: <19b.84a0429.2aad7ee6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <76F9D5B2-C3AE-11D6-AD9A-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>

almost bust a gut laughing because i did the almost exact same thing 
two months ago. came up with nothing, or would have had i not stopped 
by burns fer some fire obsidian. actually my trip was around SE OR liek 
from burns through jordon valley, although we found one of the best 
hotsprings i have ever been to and i have been to almost 40!
the richardsons are nice folk, i have gotten a few really nice triple 
and double geodes there, but yea dont get just the run of the mill 
singles or at least taht what i profess when you pay by the pound
Kris
On Sunday, September 8, 2002, at 09:34 PM, Lapadary@aol.com wrote:

> Last year I drove up to Oregon.
> I made a big circle; from Prineville, to fossil, to Madras. I stopped 
> at
> several well-known rockhounding localities.  Fossil was the only one 
> that was
> productive. 


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 07:26:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Mon Sep  9 06:26:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Hydrogen peroxide will convert oxalic acid, my guess is that it will do
calcium oxalate but more slowly. I'll try to test this in the lab tonight if
I get time.

Have you confirmed that you did use oxalic acid?

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----

>
> does this iply that h202 may clean that white calcium oxalate off my
> flourite? that would be simple!
> - Kris
> On Sunday, September 8, 2002, at 06:26 AM, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
>
> > What about hydrogen peroxide then? I'll have to try some of this out
> > in the
> > lab Monday.
> >
> > Bryan
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >
> >>
> >> No, Don't do it. The permanganate becomes manganese dioxide and
> >> nice dingy
> >> black coating.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a message dated 9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> >>> Date:9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> >>> From:jbryankramer@msn.com
> >>> Reply-to: >> HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
> >> e.com
> >>> To: >> HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
> >> e.com
> >>> Sent from the Internet
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well I found a decomposition curve for Calcium Oxalate, at 250 deg C
> >>> it
> >>> gives up its water of hydration and around 500 deg C it is converted
> >>> to
> >>> Calcium Carbonate. Fluorite has a melting point around 1400 deg C and
> >>> Quartz
> >>> is higher than that, so in theory you could bake it to convert
> >> the oxalate
> >>> to carbonate. The Carbonate can be dissolved with Hydrochloric acid.
> >>>
> >>> It's not some thing to try with a valuable specimen however. And
> >>> these
> >>> temperatures are well above the home cooking oven temps so a
> >> muffle furnace
> >>> would be needed. 500 C is around 900 F.
> >>>
> >>> Ah Ha, I thought I recalled something else. Oxalic acid, in acidic
> >>> solution,
> >>> reacts with Potassium Permangante to form CO2  other products. It's
> >>> possible
> >>> that you might be able to destroy the Oxalate with KMnO4. Again
> >> this would
> >>> call for experimentatation with scrap pieces, a bit of Mn+2 is
> >> supposed to
> >>> catalyze the reaction. You can buy the Permanganate at drug
> >> stores, keep it
> >>> away from sulfuric acid at all costs.
> >>>
> >>> Peroxide is another possibility.
> >>>
> >>> Bryan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> >> multipart/alternative
> >>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> >>   text/html
> >> ---
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> >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> >> Subscription Services:
> >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 07:35:21 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II)
Date: Mon Sep  9 06:35:21 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms
In-Reply-To: <00d401c25696$8e997520$42ae77d5@pandora.be>
References: <5.0.2.1.2.20020906120720.029aa4e0@po2.bbn.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020909074855.030a8e28@po2.bbn.com>

Axel,

Thank you for your helpful suggestions and pictures.  The fluorescent color 
of the beryl you referenced is just about a match to that of my 
specimen.  Unfortunately your reference to blue fluorescing apatite still 
leaves me with an uncertainty.  If the specimens were larger I would do a 
hardness test but that is not possible on these slender crystals.

I also enjoyed the pictures of witherite and tourmaline but these are 
clearly not candidates.  The crystals I have are sharp slender hexagonal 
prisms, just like in the textbooks.

Over the weekend I looked up the mineral locality index in the Connecticut 
issue of Rocks and Minerals.  The minerals listed for Old Mine Park in 
Trumbull, CT include the following:
actinolite, beryl, epidote, fluorite, margarite, muscovite, diopside, 
scapolite, scheelite, topaz and wolframite after scheelite

Based on this I would suspect beryl rather than apatite but I don't think 
the list is definitive and the collecting locality was near the old 
tungsten mine but not actually at the site that the article references.

I guess I will have to go back and try to find some more material to use 
for analysis purposes (I have been looking for a good excuse anyway).

Thanks again for your suggestions and pictures.

Best regards,
Nate Martin

At 01:46 PM 9/7/2002, you wrote:
>Hey, I'm into fluorescence too...
>
>Yes: could be beryl , colorless variety "goshenite". I have some from China.
>The fluorescence is rather eerie, not very intense...
>Anyway: here's a photo to compare the fluorescent color...
>http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoBER556.html
>
>I heard of blue fluorescing fluorapatite but haven't seen it yet. It is
>listed in Manny Robbins book 'Fluorescence Gems and Minerals under UV Light"
>
>Whitherite? Perhaps looking at these psuedo-hexagonal XX may give you a
>clue? http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae029.html
>
>I don't think you would easily mistake elbaite for hexagonal but to be on
>the safe side: http://www.minerant.org/photoD/stereoELB1009.html
>
>Bazirite is hexagonal and may fluoresce blue.
>
>I hope this helps
>
>Cheers
>
>Axel Emmermann
>Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
>Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
>Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
>Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
>E-mail:
>axel.emmermann@pandora.be
>Visit our homepage:
>http://www.minerant.org/index.html
>Bezoek onze web-site:
>http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
>My own web-site:
>http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Nathan C. Martin II" 
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 6:35 PM
>Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms
>
>
>| In an effort to distract you from the current (barely on topic) discussion
>| of healing stones and religion-bashing, I would like to ask your help in
>| identifying an interesting find that I made recently at a location near
>the
>| Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT.
>|
>| I went there looking for fluorite (my favorite mineral) and although I
>| found some nice small fluorite crystals in red fluorescing calcite, the
>| most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms
>| with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter.  In
>| normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet
>| they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce.  In just looking at the crystal
>| form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the
>| fluorescence has me puzzled.  They spray is too small and delicate to do
>| any tests on so I would like to get your input based on experience with
>| other specimens that you might be familiar with.
>|
>| Does anyone know of blue fluorescing beryl or apatite crystals?  or other
>| hexagonal minerals that would yield that fluorescence.?
>|
>| This locality has a very complex mineralogy with different veins yielding
>| scheelite, fluorite in calcite, topaz, grossular garnet and I even think
>| emerald has been claimed from there.
>|
>| As an aside I also believe I found a similar blue fluorescing clear
>| hexagonal crystal a few years ago in the Morgan Pit (adjacent to the
>| Harvard Quarry) in Greenwood, ME.  I currently am trying to find it to
>| check it again.  Thus if you can help me out with some information you may
>| actually help me identify two specimens (leaving only several hundred more
>| mysteries for the future).
>|
>| Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
>|
>| Best regards,
>|
>| Nate Martin
>| Lexington, MA
>|
>| _______________________________________________
>| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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>|
>
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 07:37:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II)
Date: Mon Sep  9 06:37:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Fluorescent Hexagonal Prisms
In-Reply-To: <200209081506_MC3-1-F06-1D0B@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20020909091735.01ddee38@po2.bbn.com>

Doug,

Thanks for your suggestions.  I do not have a mid-wave UV light but I did 
check the crystals for phosphorescence under SW UV light and found no 
indication of any phosphorescence.

I have a friend who I believe has a midwave UV light and will try to 
arrange for him to take a look at these crystals plus some Trumbull 
scheelite that I have and see what we find.

Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

Best regards,
Nate Martin

At 03:06 PM 9/8/2002, Doug Mitchell wrote:
>Hi, folks--
>Nathan wrote:
> >> "... at a location near the Old Mine Park in Trumbull, CT. ... the
>most interesting find was a spray of 3 clear, terminated,hexagonal prisms
>with individual crystals about 4 mm in length x 0.5 mm in diameter.  In
>normal light the crystals are colorless but under short wave ultraviolet
>they exhibit a bright, sky blue fluoresce.  In just looking at the crystal
>form I would have guessed that they were either beryl or apatite but the
>fluorescence has me puzzled."
>
>Both beryl and apatite have been known to produce blue fluorescence on
>occasion.  While it is more common in apatite than beryl, beryl has been
>reported fluorescing blue from Haddam Neck, Connecticut (Mineralogical
>Record 23,1).  I have seen no reports of the blue-fluorescing apatite from
>Connecticut in particular, but it is not at all clear that I would have if
>it is there.  The nearest blue-fluorescing apatite I have seen reported is
>from Quebec.
>
>Given that scheelite is well known to be present from Trumbull, I would
>consider the possibility that scheelite inclusions might be responsible for
>the fluorescence.  Many scheelites fluoresce yellow under midwave UV,
>though I have not checked the Trumbull scheelites for this.  If someone out
>there were to try the Trumbull scheelite, find it yellow in midwave UV, and
>then check your hexagonal prisms with midwave, it might be informative.
>
>Other than that, I fear fluorescence is not going to help much with this
>particular distinction.
>
>Before discarding carbonates like witherite, and for that matter calcite,
>bear in mind that a later generation of mineralization can easily add them
>among the more expected minerals.  I have observed scheelite associated
>with calcite, and you are definitely in scheelite country.  In my
>experience, when carbonates fluoresce blue, they tend to have a strong
>phosphorescence, which I do not see in my blue-fluorescing Chinese beryl,
>and do not recall offhand from blue-fluorescing apatites.
>
>--Doug
>mailto: dmitchell@compuserve.com
>
>Doug Mitchell,
>Fluorescent Mineral Society, Inc.
>http://www.uvminerals.org
>
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>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 07:40:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Stockwell)
Date: Mon Sep  9 06:40:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA
References: <87F95F28-C3A2-11D6-AD9A-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3D7CBA1C.C82262FF@ix.netcom.com>

Kris,

eMail Ron Winter. He has first hand experience with the area. I've seen
MAGNIFICENT large agates from Pyramid Creek which, as I recall, is a short
distance east of Greenwater; believe Ron's prospected the creek and he has
knowledge of other sites in the White River area.

In the Ochocos east of Prineville ALMOST ALL the commonly known thunder
egg locations, of which there are quite a few, still produce. It's
navigating the forest roads that constitutes the initial hurdle to finding
the collecting sites.

John

Kris Murray wrote:

> Apparently, Greenwater, WA, has some huge jasper and agate seams. I was
> told that all i needed to remember was FS7220 and 28 mile creek. And I
> should see jasper boulders all over. After a day of driving around I
> managed to locate FS7220 but it seems that 28mile creek runs across
> FS7224, not 7220. Hmmm. And no boulders. Any advice or
> directions-givers out there in the rockhounding community that could
> shed some light on the area for me? Even my gazeteer map has a symbol
> and explanation that the area is known for jasper and thats right on
> the FS7220 road. sheesh.
> Thanks,
> Kris
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 08:20:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep  9 07:20:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com>

You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that at the 
moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!                              
  Jackie

In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:


> Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> 



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 08:28:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep  9 07:28:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <20020909142712.ZMPI11091.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>

Antimony, turquoise, lazulite, hematite; misc. copper 
carbonates  . . .

 
> You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that at the 
> moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!                              
>   Jackie
> 
> In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> 
> 
> > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 09:41:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Meyer, Bill J  KRT-KRT)
Date: Mon Sep  9 08:41:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr
 int
Message-ID: 

 <>  
 
 http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117

begin 600 HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footprint.url
M6T1%1D%53%1=#0I"05-%55),/6AT='`Z+R]W=W2YH=',O9G)O;G0O,34V-S$Q-PT*#0I;26YT97)N9713:&]R=&-U
M=%T-"E523#UH='1P.B\O=W=W+F-H <5.0.2.1.2.20020909074855.030a8e28@po2.bbn.com>
Message-ID: <000701c2581d$512e9b60$95ab77d5@pandora.be>

Nathan,

| Thank you for your helpful suggestions and pictures.  The fluorescent
color
| of the beryl you referenced is just about a match to that of my
| specimen.

OK, transparent kind of eerie blue?

|Unfortunately your reference to blue fluorescing apatite still
| leaves me with an uncertainty.  If the specimens were larger I would do a
| hardness test but that is not possible on these slender crystals.

We found similar but much smaller hexagonal prismatic XX in the German
Eiffel (one of us did) when we were on a field trip with the European FMS.
These fluoresce also but in a pink to magenta color, almost but not
completely like the Huanzala, Peru, apatites. Apatite will do that to you.
It fluoresces in quite a few of colors. I've seen pink, yellow, magenta,
white (carbonate apatite) but nothing blue up till now.

| I also enjoyed the pictures of witherite and tourmaline but these are
| clearly not candidates.  The crystals I have are sharp slender hexagonal
| prisms, just like in the textbooks.

Are the prism faces parallel to each other or are they tapered?
I don't see any sulfates in the list below but I saw at least one blue
fluorescing anglesite since I started collecting.

| Over the weekend I looked up the mineral locality index in the Connecticut
| issue of Rocks and Minerals.  The minerals listed for Old Mine Park in
| Trumbull, CT include the following:
| actinolite, beryl, epidote, fluorite, margarite, muscovite, diopside,
| scapolite, scheelite, topaz and wolframite after scheelite
|
| Based on this I would suspect beryl rather than apatite but I don't think
| the list is definitive and the collecting locality was near the old
| tungsten mine but not actually at the site that the article references.

I found some images of diopside that could be mistaken for hexagonal when
small enough. The mineral is monoclinic but columnar prisms may look like
they have a six-sided cross section. The top should look like it is cut
slantwise with one large face rather than six equiform faces that end in a
six-sided "kiosk" (like apatite often does). Diopside is known to fluoresce
light blue in some locations.
Margarite from Franklin also may fluoresce light blue. I have no data on
possible fluorescence of Trumbull specimens. The mine is monoclinic but is
known to form pseudo-hexagonal crystals.
To make matters worse, topaz from several localities in Pakistan, Brazil and
the US is known to fluoresce blue. It's orthorhombic but small  elongated
crystals may be deceiving.

| I guess I will have to go back and try to find some more material to use
| for analysis purposes (I have been looking for a good excuse anyway).
| Thanks again for your suggestions and pictures.

You're welcome. Go for it ;-)))

Cheers

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm





From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 10:49:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Mon Sep  9 09:49:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References: 
Message-ID: <002601c25821$9d92bdc0$95ab77d5@pandora.be>

;-))))))))))))

Hi Bill,

They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))

I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.

Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get stolen...
How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if one of
you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then it
would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
bandits.

I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))

Best

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


| <>
|
|  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
|
|


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 11:25:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Mon Sep  9 10:25:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net>

Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron oxides,
azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows what
is in it?

Walt

CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:

> You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that at the
> moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
>   Jackie
>
> In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
>
> > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> >
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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> ---
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> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 11:51:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Mon Sep  9 10:51:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be>

Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
eyes.
Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
from getting old ;-)))

Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
but no cheerleaders ;-)))))

Cheers

Axel Emmermann

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents


| Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
oxides,
| azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
what
| is in it?
|
| Walt
|
| CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
|
| > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
at the
| > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
| >   Jackie
| >
| > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
| > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
| >
| > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
| > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
| > >
| >
| > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
| > multipart/alternative
| >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
| >   text/html
| > ---
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|
| _______________________________________________
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| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 12:05:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Mon Sep  9 11:05:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D7CE2A6.4C0CB908@earthlink.net>

Arsenic green was a common pigment in paints.  Everyone knows you ain't
supposed to eat it.  Right?

Kohl, stibnite, ground finely is used in India and other locations to help
children keep various infections out of the eye.

What other mineral pigment, cosmetic uses  do we have?


Walt

Axel Emmermann wrote:

> Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
> young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
> eyes.
> Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
> from getting old ;-)))
>
> Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
> early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
> but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
>
> Cheers
>
> Axel Emmermann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>
> | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
> oxides,
> | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
> what
> | is in it?
> |
> | Walt
> |
> | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> |
> | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
> at the
> | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
> | >   Jackie
> | >
> | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> | >
> | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> | > >
> | >
> | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> | > multipart/alternative
> | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> | >   text/html
> | > ---
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > Subscription Services:
> | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
> | _______________________________________________
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> |
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 12:28:43 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Anita Westlake)
Date: Mon Sep  9 11:28:43 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7CE2A6.4C0CB908@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D7CE7B8.1010600@emory.edu>

Phyllite was also used for eye-shadow because of its "shimmery" effect.
Anita

Dr. Walter S. Bowser wrote:

>Arsenic green was a common pigment in paints.  Everyone knows you ain't
>supposed to eat it.  Right?
>
>Kohl, stibnite, ground finely is used in India and other locations to help
>children keep various infections out of the eye.
>
>What other mineral pigment, cosmetic uses  do we have?
>
>
>Walt
>
>Axel Emmermann wrote:
>
>>Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
>>young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
>>eyes.
>>Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
>>from getting old ;-)))
>>
>>Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
>>early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
>>but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Axel Emmermann
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
>>To: 
>>Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>>
>>| Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
>>oxides,
>>| azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
>>what
>>| is in it?
>>|
>>| Walt
>>|
>>| CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
>>|
>>| > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
>>at the
>>| > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
>>| >   Jackie
>>| >
>>| > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>| > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
>>| >
>>| > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
>>| > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
>>| > >
>>| >
>>| > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
>>| > multipart/alternative
>>| >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>>| >   text/html
>>| > ---
>>| > _______________________________________________
>>| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>>| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>>| > Subscription Services:
>>| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>>|
>>| _______________________________________________
>>| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>>| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>>| Subscription Services:
>>| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>>|
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
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>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 12:28:53 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Mon Sep  9 11:28:53 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7CE2A6.4C0CB908@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004d01c2582f$6aac9e40$95ab77d5@pandora.be>

Chalk was used by the ancient Greek actors in the theatre I believe.
Chalked cheeks to obtain a healty pale teint.

The sulphurous hot mud of the solfatara near Mount Vesuvius, Italy, were
(and perhaps still are?) used in baths.

Is there still more?

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents


| Arsenic green was a common pigment in paints.  Everyone knows you ain't
| supposed to eat it.  Right?
|
| Kohl, stibnite, ground finely is used in India and other locations to help
| children keep various infections out of the eye.
|
| What other mineral pigment, cosmetic uses  do we have?
|
|
| Walt
|
| Axel Emmermann wrote:
|
| > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses
look
| > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair
and
| > eyes.
| > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps
you
| > from getting old ;-)))
| >
| > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
| > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et
circences,
| > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
| >
| > Cheers
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
| >
| > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
| > oxides,
| > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who
knows
| > what
| > | is in it?
| > |
| > | Walt
| > |
| > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
| > |
| > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others
that
| > at the
| > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
| > | >   Jackie
| > | >
| > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
| > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
| > | >
| > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
| > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
| > | > multipart/alternative
| > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
| > | >   text/html
| > | > ---
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > Subscription Services:
| > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | Subscription Services:
| > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 13:33:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush)
Date: Mon Sep  9 12:33:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: 
Message-ID: <000201c25837$e0134500$09af5a0c@fekib>

----- Original Message -----
From: Kris Murray 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents


> does this iply that h202 may clean that white calcium oxalate off my
> flourite? that would be simple!
> - Kris
-----------------------------------
My experience with calcium oxalates caused by using oxalic acid is that they
can be removed by; surprise; oxalic acid! This time, make sure your water is
pure, mix in the acid with very hot water, soak the spec. until the oxalates
are dissolved, and promptly remove from the bath. Timing is critical. Do not
let the piece stay a moment longer than necessary. Wash with lots of water,
and soak in a basic solution (baking soda and water will do) for a few
hours. If this doesn't work completely, try it again from step 1. This has
almost always worked for me.

Please discard the used solution properly. It can now be considered a toxic
substance.

Larry Rush


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 14:03:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep  9 13:03:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <34270544.73463315.02180873@aol.com>

I believe ground Lapis was used in some cultures for adornment.

Gene


In a message dated Mon, 9 Sep 2002 1:04:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes:

> 
> 
> Arsenic green was a common pigment in paints.  Everyone knows you ain't
> supposed to eat it.  Right?
> 
> Kohl, stibnite, ground finely is used in India and other locations to help
> children keep various infections out of the eye.
> 
> What other mineral pigment, cosmetic uses  do we have?
> 
> 
> Walt
> 
> Axel Emmermann wrote:
> 
> > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
> > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
> > eyes.
> > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
> > from getting old ;-)))
> >
> > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
> > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
> > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> >
> > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
> > oxides,
> > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
> > what
> > | is in it?
> > |
> > | Walt
> > |
> > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> > |
> > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
> > at the
> > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
> > | >   Jackie
> > | >
> > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> > | >
> > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been 
> used.
> > | > >
> > | >
> > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > | > multipart/alternative
> > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > | >   text/html
> > | > ---
> > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > | > Subscription Services:
> > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > |
> > | _______________________________________________
> > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > | Subscription Services:
> > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > |
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 15:15:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep  9 14:15:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <150.13bb878e.2aae6936@aol.com>

There ya go!! I knew someone would know!!!  Thanks Don..
                                       Jackie 

In a message dated 9/9/02 10:29:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
morningstar@att.net writes:


> Antimony, turquoise, lazulite, hematite; misc. copper 
> carbonates  .



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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  text/html
---

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 17:13:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Mon Sep  9 16:13:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <002601c25821$9d92bdc0$95ab77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D7D2AE3.9C3@Tomaszewski.net>

You've got to stop sleeping Axel. First, moondust stolen from a museum
in Sweden
(http://signonsandiego.com/news/science/20020907-0513-sweden-moondust.html)
and now fossil footprints from Texas.



Axel Emmermann wrote:
> 
> ;-))))))))))))
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
> all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))
> 
> I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
> footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.
> 
> Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get stolen...
> How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if one of
> you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then it
> would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
> bandits.
> 
> I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))
> 
> Best
> 
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
> Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
> 
> | < | footprint.url>>
> |
> |  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
> |
> |
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> 
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 18:00:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Mon Sep  9 17:00:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <34270544.73463315.02180873@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7D35CA.710323A6@earthlink.net>

Ground lapis is an eye shadow and also a very good paint pigment. In the 15th century and such the
finest blues, I believe Cerulean blue was ground lapis.

Walt

FOSSILNUT@aol.com wrote:

> I believe ground Lapis was used in some cultures for adornment.
>
> Gene
>
> In a message dated Mon, 9 Sep 2002 1:04:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, geologo@earthlink.net writes:
>
> >
> >
> > Arsenic green was a common pigment in paints.  Everyone knows you ain't
> > supposed to eat it.  Right?
> >
> > Kohl, stibnite, ground finely is used in India and other locations to help
> > children keep various infections out of the eye.
> >
> > What other mineral pigment, cosmetic uses  do we have?
> >
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> >
> > > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
> > > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
> > > eyes.
> > > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
> > > from getting old ;-)))
> > >
> > > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
> > > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
> > > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> > >
> > > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
> > > oxides,
> > > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
> > > what
> > > | is in it?
> > > |
> > > | Walt
> > > |
> > > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> > > |
> > > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
> > > at the
> > > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
> > > | >   Jackie
> > > | >
> > > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> > > | >
> > > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> > > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been
> > used.
> > > | > >
> > > | >
> > > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > > | > multipart/alternative
> > > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > > | >   text/html
> > > | > ---
> > > | > _______________________________________________
> > > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | > Subscription Services:
> > > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > |
> > > | _______________________________________________
> > > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | Subscription Services:
> > > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > |
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 22:24:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler)
Date: Mon Sep  9 21:24:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
In-Reply-To: <002601c25821$9d92bdc0$95ab77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: 

Hey Axel,

Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:55 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas dinosaur's footpr int


;-))))))))))))

Hi Bill,

They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))

I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.

Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get stolen...
How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if one of
you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then it
would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
bandits.

I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))

Best

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


| <>
|
|  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
|
|


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----


| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep  9 22:43:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Mon Sep  9 21:43:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Australia & Hawaii lava revisited
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020909185017.02e40e50@mail.aloha.net>

Here's a postscript to my report on our Australia trip last July, and a 
Hawaii lava update:

Australia:  First, I forgot to say that Milton Lavers of Broken Hill told 
me that Dick Hauck had visited him several years ago from Sterling 
Hill.  Small world!  We had met Dick a couple of summers ago when he gave 
the tour of the SH mine, and talked with him afterwards about Edwin 
Skidmore who started my parents' interest in fluorescent minerals in the 
1950's.  According to Milton, Dick took him on a wild ride around Broken 
Hill, sometimes forgetting to drive on the left side of the road.

Second, I forgot to mention the names of streets in Broken Hill.  We came 
into town on Argent St. (which I recognized after a moment's thought as 
"Silver" in French) and saw the following cross streets go by, in exactly 
this order, with no other streets in between:  Iodide, Oxide, Chloride, 
Sulphide, Bromide, Kaolin, Garnet, Gossan, Graphite, Bismuth, and 
Gypsum.  Most other streets were named for people, but we also encountered 
and saw on the map the following:  Beryl, Blende, Calcite, Carbon, Cobalt, 
Crystal, Duff, Galena, Garnet, Mercury, Mica, Quarry, Radium, Rhodonite, 
Silica, Silver, Slag, Tin, Uranium, Wolfram and Zinc!

And an update on the volcano:  The lava has been stalled from going into 
the ocean for almost 2 weeks, seeming content to wander about re-paving 
roads and look-out stairs.  But this morning it made a new break for it, 
and is now pouring into the sea again.  Only one picture of that on the 
website this morning, but I suspect more will be there tomorrow:

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/main.html

Aloha, Kitty



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 01:08:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 10 00:08:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe...
In-Reply-To: <003101c25608$45f50d90$d87142d8@dlevinp0757px3>
References: <5b.2d8f44a5.2aaa6100@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020909203759.00a92e40@mail.aloha.net>

I've been reading posts on this thread and passing many of them on to Bill,=
=20
my resident astronomer/physicist for his comment: and getting, "That's=20
correct," or "Interesting," or "Hmmmm" (not always the most articulate=20
fellow, but I love him anyway).

Don't worry, Aaron, along the following tortured path I will gather up a=20
few threads and arrive at rocks:

Shortly after graduation from high school (40 years ago!) I was devastated=
=20
when three sibling friends contracted diphtheria because their parents had=
=20
refused to inoculate them as babies.  Her brother and sister survived, but=
=20
my classmate died, because her parents wished to demonstrate the=20
=93scientific=94 basis of their religious faith.  In fact I had been a=
 member=20
of that religion myself;  my deceased friend and I had gone to Sunday=20
school together.  I tried for a while to maintain my faith, and then to=20
replace it with other religions, but it didn't work.  To this day I am an=20
agnostic, and am touchy---if not downright angry---with people who impose=20
their beliefs on innocents, those who use =93scientific=94 jargon to =93prov=
e=94=20
their ideas, and those who play on other people=92s beliefs to make a buck.

On the other hand, several years ago as my mother came out of anesthesia=20
after minor surgery, she was extremely agitated about something she=20
believed she had experienced.  She told everyone who would listen that she=
=20
had seen herself unconscious on her bed, that people were running in and=20
out of their rural home---she named some specific acquaintances---that an=20
unusual vehicle drove up, and that she had viewed all this from above as if=
=20
she were floating in the air.  That last part sounded like the =93out-of-bod=
y=20
experience=94 some people have described after a near-death situation.  But=
=20
my mother had not had a life-threatening event, so we all assumed it was=20
just a very vivid dream.  Nine months later my mother had a stroke;  my=20
father called for help, and neighbors---including the ones my mother had=20
mentioned from her vision---came running in and out of their home;  the=20
volunteer fire department vehicle arrived and looked like the one Mom had=20
described, but it had been acquired only a few weeks earlier, months after=
=20
she =93saw=94 it =93from above.=94   My mother died the next day.  Her=
 detailed=20
description was absolutely fulfilled, and friends and family members who=20
had heard her =93dream=94 story months before were deeply troubled,=
 including=20
my resident astronomer/physicist/skeptic sometimes inarticulate=20
husband.  How could she foresee her own death in such vivid detail?  There=
=20
is absolutely no scientific answer to that question.

So =93There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of=
=20
in your philosophy.=94  On September 11 last year Bill and I spent time=20
re-organizing our rock cabinets.  We found solace and calm in re-examining=
=20
our beautiful treasures.  It really WAS therapeutic---at least to the mind=
=20
and soul---to hold and handle an iridescent crystal or gaze at brilliant=20
fluorescence.  Some years ago Norman Cousins survived a rare and deadly=20
disease by watching funny movies.  His book (Anatomy of an Illness) and=20
subsequent scientific studies attest to the value of laughter and smiling=20
in the healing process.  Apparently the very act of turning lips into a=20
smile---even if one doesn't really feel happy---can trigger the release of=
=20
certain endorphins that help heal the body and fight disease (I'm cruising=
=20
from memory here, but think I've got the gist of it).  So if holding or=20
contemplating a crystal makes you smile, maybe it IS healing!  After all,=20
think of some of the amazing aspects of rocks and minerals that ARE=20
scientifically demonstrable:  fluorescence, phosphorescence,=20
triboluminescence, thermoluminescence, tenebrescence and double=20
refraction;  specimens can be magnetic, poisonous, bendable, thixotropic,=20
radioactive, some can grow and =93heal=94 themselves, and some are used in=
=20
legitimate medicines=85and cosmetics!

Aloha, Kitty



At 02:48 PM 9/6/2002, you wrote:

>Yes, Grant.  I think you are missing something.  Missing is the realization
>that all that exists may not be perceivable by human senses. In fact I=
 would
>guess that the vast amount of existence is not humanly understandable.  We
>may catch glimmerings and more glimmerings.  That's what has happened with
>scientific discovery over the years.  That which was impossible became
>commonplace.  But why would we possibly think that everything that can
>exist, and I'm using fairly simple terminology here, only exists within the
>realm of human senses to record?  Surely with all the vastness of
>possibility out there in the universe, there are other "senses" if you=
 will.
>I'm not saying I know what they are.  I'm saying that it seems unlikely=
 that
>we, homo sapiens sapiens, can be all knowing and all seeing, to steal a
>phrase from another context.  If we can't, then we must assume that we have
>huge limitations.
>
>So we must speculate and not assume a homocentric universe.  Perhaps
>meditation, logic, thought and imagination can help.  Personnally I only=
 use
>the latter three, however even they have vast limitations because they
>depend on the same observability as the senses. I guess I would have to say
>that thinking between the spaces about what is not expressed in our
>accustomed ways is more profitable.  What I mean is we tend to think about
>the observable.  We think about what we see.  What are we not observing?
>What seems to be missing?  Why is there no Unified Theory? Because there is
>much missing?  Why are there objects that some believe seem to date before
>the big bang?  Because there is much missing.
>
>Why do we think we can possibly know everything from this little backwater
>corner of the Universe?
>
>Derek



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 01:50:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 00:50:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Epidemic?
Message-ID: <001501c2589f$9296dcc0$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

Hey people, look at this one http://www.space.com/news/astronotes-1.html
It's beginning to look like an epidemic... ;-)

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:                                                                  =
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:                                              =
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:                                         =
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:                                                 =
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 02:04:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 01:04:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <002601c25821$9d92bdc0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7D2AE3.9C3@Tomaszewski.net>
Message-ID: <002301c258a1$891db680$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

Only one solution: I'll have myself cloned.
That way I can stay awake while I sleep....
Anybody know a good cloning lab?

cheers

PS: suddenly my neighbours are gathering on my lawn with sacks of feathers
and I smell tar melting...  Guess they're no so happy witch the cloning
idea....

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


| You've got to stop sleeping Axel. First, moondust stolen from a museum
| in Sweden
|
(http://signonsandiego.com/news/science/20020907-0513-sweden-moondust.html)
| and now fossil footprints from Texas.
|
|
|
| Axel Emmermann wrote:
| >
| > ;-))))))))))))
| >
| > Hi Bill,
| >
| > They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
| > all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))
| >
| > I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
| > footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.
| >
| > Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get
stolen...
| > How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if
one of
| > you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then
it
| > would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
| > bandits.
| >
| > I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))
| >
| > Best
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
| > Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| > dinosaur's footpr int
| >
| > | < | footprint.url>>
| > |
| > |  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
| > |
| > |
| >
|
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
| > ----
| >
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | Subscription Services:
| > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 02:19:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 01:19:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References: 
Message-ID: <002b01c258a3$96ba4ae0$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

| Hey Axel,
|
| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
|
| Bob

Ooops Bob!
But if 120.000.000 of you people make another 140.000.000 of you people on
such short notice.... who the heck has any time left to steal those freakin'
national treasures...
Oh, I seeeeee! There's a couple of you towing he line, isn't there? Naughty
naughty!

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm

| -----Original Message-----
| From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
| [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann
| Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:55 AM
| To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
| Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| Texas dinosaur's footpr int
|
|
| ;-))))))))))))
|
| Hi Bill,
|
| They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
| all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))
|
| I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
| footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.
|
| Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get
stolen...
| How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if one
of
| you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then
it
| would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
| bandits.
|
| I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))
|
| Best
|
| Axel Emmermann
| Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| Home : Lobbesplein 12
|             B-2640 Mortsel
|             Belgium
| Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| E-mail:
| axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| Visit our homepage:
| http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| Bezoek onze web-site:
| http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| My own web-site:
| http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
| To: 
| Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
| Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| dinosaur's footpr int
|
|
| | <>
| |
| |  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
| |
| |
|
|
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
| ----
|
|
| | _______________________________________________
| | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| | Subscription Services:
| | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| |
|
|
| _______________________________________________
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| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 06:23:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek)
Date: Tue Sep 10 05:23:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's
 footpr int
Message-ID: 




>
>| Hey Axel,
>|
>| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
>|
>| Bob
>

Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that "America" 
is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of Hudson 
Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all those 
nations and you'd have the number of Americans.

                                Cheers-  Earl Verbeek

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 08:06:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (liz fodi)
Date: Tue Sep 10 07:06:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D7DFD6A.789D4304@utoronto.ca>

Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
complexion.

Liz
liz.fodi@utoronto.ca

Axel Emmermann wrote:
> 
> Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
> young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
> eyes.
> Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
> from getting old ;-)))
> 
> Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
> early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
> but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Axel Emmermann
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> 
> | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
> oxides,
> | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
> what
> | is in it?
> |
> | Walt
> |
> | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> |
> | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
> at the
> | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
> | >   Jackie
> | >
> | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> | >
> | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> | > >
> | >
> | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> | > multipart/alternative
> | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> | >   text/html
> | > ---
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > Subscription Services:
> | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 08:40:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 07:40:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References: 
Message-ID: <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on 32.545
square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom we
still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the next
guy...
Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high between
the piles of beer barrels.

Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
topic... maybe this will do:

Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
Belgium???
Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're on
topic).

MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air

Cheers Earl

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "earl verbeek" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


|
|
|
|
| >
| >| Hey Axel,
| >|
| >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| >|
| >| Bob
| >
|
| Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
"America"
| is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
Hudson
| Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all those
| nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
|
|                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
|
| _________________________________________________________________
| Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| http://www.hotmail.com
|
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 08:58:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 07:58:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7DFD6A.789D4304@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <00d801c258db$4286ae40$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

| Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
| complexion.
|
| Liz

Good contrast Liz. Very trendy. I'd ware black to go with that make-up
;-)))))

What about orpiment and realgar...

Some historians seriously consider that the use of lead pipes for
transporting drinking water may be ones of the main reasons for the demise
of the Roman and Greek empires. Slow lead-poisoning may lead to dementia
among other symptoms. Drinking from those fancy lead-glass drinking glasses
may have the same result after some years, it seems.

In rich Egyptian families (Cleopatra's time, say 15th dynasty?)  it was
common practice to drink pearls that were dissolved in wine vinegar.
I'm not sure if pearls are considered as mineral and I don't know why they
did it...

Cheers

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "liz fodi" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents


| Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
| complexion.
|
| Liz
| liz.fodi@utoronto.ca
|
| Axel Emmermann wrote:
| >
| > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses
look
| > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair
and
| > eyes.
| > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps yo
u
| > from getting old ;-)))
| >
| > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
| > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et
circences,
| > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
| >
| > Cheers
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
| >
| > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
| > oxides,
| > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who
knows
| > what
| > | is in it?
| > |
| > | Walt
| > |
| > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
| > |
| > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others
that
| > at the
| > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
| > | >   Jackie
| > | >
| > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
| > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
| > | >
| > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
| > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
| > | > multipart/alternative
| > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
| > | >   text/html
| > | > ---
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > Subscription Services:
| > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | Subscription Services:
| > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 09:07:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek)
Date: Tue Sep 10 08:07:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's
 footpr int
Message-ID: 

Here in New Jersey we have slightly more room because we store our beer IN 
our humans . . . unless, of course, it's really bad beer, in which case we 
put it back in the horse.

Type localities:  ooooh, that willemite hurts!  Archibald Bruce described 
willemite from Franklin in 1810 (published 1814), but he neglected to name 
it, calling it instead "siliceous oxyde of zinc".  If we regard a type 
locality as the place where the mineral was first described, rather than 
first named, then the areal density of Belgian type localities is reduced to 
0.0011904 per square mile.  But I'd rather keep the type locality with you 
folks in Belgium; better willemite than, say, georgewashite :>)

                                       Cheers-  Earl Verbeek

>From: "Axel Emmermann" 
>Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas 
>dinosaur's footpr int
>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:46:13 +0200
>
>Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on 32.545
>square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
>Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
>This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom we
>still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the next
>guy...
>Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
>Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
>Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high between
>the piles of beer barrels.
>
>Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
>topic... maybe this will do:
>
>Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
>Belgium???
>Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're on
>topic).
>
>MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
>ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
>davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
>delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
>diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
>fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
>halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
>hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
>koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
>ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
>richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
>viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
>willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
>drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
>vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
>ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
>viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
>
>Cheers Earl
>
>Axel Emmermann
>Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
>Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
>Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
>Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
>E-mail:
>axel.emmermann@pandora.be
>Visit our homepage:
>http://www.minerant.org/index.html
>Bezoek onze web-site:
>http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
>My own web-site:
>http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "earl verbeek" 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
>dinosaur's footpr int
>
>
>|
>|
>|
>|
>| >
>| >| Hey Axel,
>| >|
>| >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
>| >|
>| >| Bob
>| >
>|
>| Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
>"America"
>| is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
>Hudson
>| Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all those
>| nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
>|
>|                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
>|
>| _________________________________________________________________
>| Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>| http://www.hotmail.com
>|
>| _______________________________________________
>| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>| Subscription Services:
>| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>|
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 09:25:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Tue Sep 10 08:25:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7DFD6A.789D4304@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <3D7E0EAB.487C0E94@earthlink.net>

Zinc oxide has cosmetic value as well as medicinal purposes.  Zinc white is  a
standard in grease paint for stage.

Walt

liz fodi wrote:

> Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> complexion.
>
> Liz
> liz.fodi@utoronto.ca
>
> Axel Emmermann wrote:
> >
> > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses look
> > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair and
> > eyes.
> > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps you
> > from getting old ;-)))
> >
> > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
> > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et circences,
> > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> >
> > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
> > oxides,
> > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who knows
> > what
> > | is in it?
> > |
> > | Walt
> > |
> > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> > |
> > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others that
> > at the
> > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
> > | >   Jackie
> > | >
> > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> > | >
> > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> > | > >
> > | >
> > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > | > multipart/alternative
> > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > | >   text/html
> > | > ---
> > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > | > Subscription Services:
> > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > |
> > | _______________________________________________
> > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > | Subscription Services:
> > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > |
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 09:32:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Tue Sep 10 08:32:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7DFD6A.789D4304@utoronto.ca> <00d801c258db$4286ae40$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D7E104B.32AF3BFD@earthlink.net>

Pearls and amber are one of the few organic minerals.  A mineral by definition
is a naturally occurring inorganic substance.

Walt

Axel Emmermann wrote:

> | Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> | complexion.
> |
> | Liz
>
> Good contrast Liz. Very trendy. I'd ware black to go with that make-up
> ;-)))))
>
> What about orpiment and realgar...
>
> Some historians seriously consider that the use of lead pipes for
> transporting drinking water may be ones of the main reasons for the demise
> of the Roman and Greek empires. Slow lead-poisoning may lead to dementia
> among other symptoms. Drinking from those fancy lead-glass drinking glasses
> may have the same result after some years, it seems.
>
> In rich Egyptian families (Cleopatra's time, say 15th dynasty?)  it was
> common practice to drink pearls that were dissolved in wine vinegar.
> I'm not sure if pearls are considered as mineral and I don't know why they
> did it...
>
> Cheers
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "liz fodi" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>
> | Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> | complexion.
> |
> | Liz
> | liz.fodi@utoronto.ca
> |
> | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> | >
> | > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old horses
> look
> | > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny hair
> and
> | > eyes.
> | > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and keeps yo
> u
> | > from getting old ;-)))
> | >
> | > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness and
> | > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et
> circences,
> | > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
> | >
> | > Cheers
> | >
> | > Axel Emmermann
> | >
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> | > To: 
> | > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
> | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> | >
> | > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite, iron
> | > oxides,
> | > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now, who
> knows
> | > what
> | > | is in it?
> | > |
> | > | Walt
> | > |
> | > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> | > |
> | > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some others
> that
> | > at the
> | > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
> | > | >   Jackie
> | > | >
> | > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> | > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
> | > | >
> | > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the principal
> | > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
> | > | > >
> | > | >
> | > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> | > | > multipart/alternative
> | > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> | > | >   text/html
> | > | > ---
> | > | > _______________________________________________
> | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > | > Subscription Services:
> | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | > |
> | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > | Subscription Services:
> | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | > |
> | >
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > Subscription Services:
> | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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> |
>
> _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 09:57:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 10 08:57:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: 

With all this cosmetic information   I think I may start 
powdering/crushing some of my minerals..why pay all that money..I have a face 
full of stuff right here!  LOL
                                        Jackie 

In a message dated 9/10/02 10:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
liz.fodi@utoronto.ca writes:


> Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> complexion.
> 



--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 12:28:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Tue Sep 10 11:28:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7E397C.4CB88A99@earthlink.net>

Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is used to provide
filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a cosmetic company
about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found people were allergic
to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to find a cosmetic
grade mica supplier?  Very much then.

Walt

CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:

> With all this cosmetic information   I think I may start
> powdering/crushing some of my minerals..why pay all that money..I have a face
> full of stuff right here!  LOL
>                                         Jackie
>
> In a message dated 9/10/02 10:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> liz.fodi@utoronto.ca writes:
>
> > Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> > complexion.
> >
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/alternative
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/html
> ---
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 12:28:24 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim and Carolyn Ebsary)
Date: Tue Sep 10 11:28:24 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] CCFMS field trips to Beamsville and Dundas Sep 28 & 29, 2002
Message-ID: <000e01c258f8$4a610080$327505d1@jimcarolyn>

Hello all

The Canadian Federation of Mineralogical Societies (CCFMS) field trips to
Nelson Agregate Quarry on Sep 28 and LaFarge Quarry on Sep 29 are confirmed.

These field trips are open to CCFMS members in good standing and their
guests, when they register at jime@iaw.on.ca

Details on minerals species found in these quarries, directions, map, etc
are found at the CCFMS website
www.ccfms.ca

A tail gate swap will follow the LaFarge Dundas field trip on the 29th for
those interested.

Hope to see you there
The Niagara Peninsula Geological Society
Jim Ebsary
jime@iaw.on.ca
http://www.iaw.on.ca/~jime



Ratio of words the New York Times devoted to Stephen Jay Gould's obituary to
those it spent on John Gotti's: 4:7
-Harper's Index


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 14:38:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Tue Sep 10 13:38:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References:  <3D7E397C.4CB88A99@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c25909$de9b69a0$21cb94d1@hewlettlydtpep>

not very hard, if you know where to look.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents


> Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is used to
provide
> filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a cosmetic
company
> about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found people were
allergic
> to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to find a
cosmetic
> grade mica supplier?  Very much then.
>
> Walt
>
> CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
>
> > With all this cosmetic information   I think I may start
> > powdering/crushing some of my minerals..why pay all that money..I have a
face
> > full of stuff right here!  LOL
> >                                         Jackie
> >
> > In a message dated 9/10/02 10:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > liz.fodi@utoronto.ca writes:
> >
> > > Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> > > complexion.
> > >
> >
> > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > multipart/alternative
> >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> >   text/html
> > ---
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 15:13:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (liz fodi)
Date: Tue Sep 10 14:13:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7DFD6A.789D4304@utoronto.ca> <3D7E0EAB.487C0E94@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D7E5F38.555DDF19@utoronto.ca>

In case anyone doesn't realize this was tongue in cheek.
Both substances were used during the 18th century... with hideous consequences.
Like antimony, belladona(plant extract), and yes, arsenic, do not add to your
cosmetic drawer.

Not sure, did anyone mention titanium oxide? Used in cosmetics today.

Liz

> liz fodi wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> > complexion.
> >
> > Liz
> > liz.fodi@utoronto.ca

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 15:17:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Tue Sep 10 14:17:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References:  <3D7E397C.4CB88A99@earthlink.net> <005e01c25909$de9b69a0$21cb94d1@hewlettlydtpep>
Message-ID: <3D7E6109.A0439504@earthlink.net>

Yeah, this was 25 years ago.  There were only two people in th US who could
meet MY specs.

Walt

Michael Schmidt wrote:

> not very hard, if you know where to look.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>
> > Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is used to
> provide
> > filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a cosmetic
> company
> > about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found people were
> allergic
> > to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to find a
> cosmetic
> > grade mica supplier?  Very much then.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > With all this cosmetic information   I think I may start
> > > powdering/crushing some of my minerals..why pay all that money..I have a
> face
> > > full of stuff right here!  LOL
> > >                                         Jackie
> > >
> > > In a message dated 9/10/02 10:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > liz.fodi@utoronto.ca writes:
> > >
> > > > Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
> > > > complexion.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > > multipart/alternative
> > >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > >   text/html
> > > ---
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 15:31:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 14:31:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References: 
Message-ID: <000901c25912$3df75d20$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

| Here in New Jersey we have slightly more room because we store our beer IN
| our humans . . . unless, of course, it's really bad beer, in which case we
| put it back in the horse.

Gee, as a nation of beerophiles we stand in awe...  Up till now we used cats
but yes... horses... hmmmm, there's an idea....

| Type localities:  ooooh, that willemite hurts!

I knew that would sting a bit... I have some nice fluorescing willemite from
Plombières (one of those unpronounceable Belgian towns that sound like a
speech impediment). It doesn't compete with the massive beamers you guys
pick up on the Trotter Dump but hey, we got the TL (gnagnagnagnaaaaar)

|Archibald Bruce described
| willemite from Franklin in 1810 (published 1814), but he neglected to name
| it, calling it instead "siliceous oxyde of zinc".

Is that the one from "brucite"? Busy bloke, ain't he? Oh well, he had his
chance...


Cheers

Axel

| >From: "Axel Emmermann" 
| >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
| >To: 
| >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| >dinosaur's footpr int
| >Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:46:13 +0200
| >
| >Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on 32.545
| >square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
| >Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
| >This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom
we
| >still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the next
| >guy...
| >Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
| >Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
| >Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
between
| >the piles of beer barrels.
| >
| >Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
| >topic... maybe this will do:
| >
| >Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
| >Belgium???
| >Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're
on
| >topic).
| >
| >MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
| >ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
| >davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
| >delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
| >diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
| >fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
| >halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
| >hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
| >koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
| >ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
| >richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
| >viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
| >willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
| >drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
| >vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
| >ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
| >viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
| >
| >Cheers Earl
| >
| >Axel Emmermann
| >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| >Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| >Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| >E-mail:
| >axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| >Visit our homepage:
| >http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| >Bezoek onze web-site:
| >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| >My own web-site:
| >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| >----- Original Message -----
| >From: "earl verbeek" 
| >To: 
| >Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
| >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| >dinosaur's footpr int
| >
| >
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >|
| >| >
| >| >| Hey Axel,
| >| >|
| >| >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| >| >|
| >| >| Bob
| >| >
| >|
| >| Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
| >"America"
| >| is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
| >Hudson
| >| Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all
those
| >| nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
| >|
| >|                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
| >|
| >| _________________________________________________________________
| >| Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| >| http://www.hotmail.com
| >|
| >| _______________________________________________
| >| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| >| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| >| Subscription Services:
| >| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| >|
| >
| >
| >_______________________________________________
| >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| >Subscription Services:
| >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|
|
| _________________________________________________________________
| Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| http://www.hotmail.com
|
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| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 16:07:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Tue Sep 10 15:07:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: <17f.e0dee42.2aae07f4@aol.com> <3D7CD967.DB983AA4@earthlink.net> <003701c2582a$476b99e0$95ab77d5@pandora.be> <3D7DFD6A.789D4304@utoronto.ca> <00d801c258db$4286ae40$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <3D7E104B.32AF3BFD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005f01c25917$3f807be0$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>

My whewellite fluoresces nicely, thank you.
If I'm not mistaking, this minerals has the same chemical comosition as
kidney, gal and bladder stones.


Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents


| Pearls and amber are one of the few organic minerals.  A mineral by
definition
| is a naturally occurring inorganic substance.
|
| Walt
|
| Axel Emmermann wrote:
|
| > | Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
| > | complexion.
| > |
| > | Liz
| >
| > Good contrast Liz. Very trendy. I'd ware black to go with that make-up
| > ;-)))))
| >
| > What about orpiment and realgar...
| >
| > Some historians seriously consider that the use of lead pipes for
| > transporting drinking water may be ones of the main reasons for the
demise
| > of the Roman and Greek empires. Slow lead-poisoning may lead to dementia
| > among other symptoms. Drinking from those fancy lead-glass drinking
glasses
| > may have the same result after some years, it seems.
| >
| > In rich Egyptian families (Cleopatra's time, say 15th dynasty?)  it was
| > common practice to drink pearls that were dissolved in wine vinegar.
| > I'm not sure if pearls are considered as mineral and I don't know why
they
| > did it...
| >
| > Cheers
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "liz fodi" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:10 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
| >
| > | Don't forget cinnabar for red red lips and lead for that dead white
| > | complexion.
| > |
| > | Liz
| > | liz.fodi@utoronto.ca
| > |
| > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
| > | >
| > | > Malafide horse traders used small doses of arsenic to make old
horses
| > look
| > | > young back in the 19th century. The poison gives the horses shiny
hair
| > and
| > | > eyes.
| > | > Now THAT's the ultimate cosmetic... it makes you look young and
keeps yo
| > u
| > | > from getting old ;-)))
| > | >
| > | > Prolonged use of stibium (antimonite) as eye shadow caused sickness
and
| > | > early death among the upper class woman of ancient Rome. Panem et
| > circences,
| > | > but no cheerleaders ;-)))))
| > | >
| > | > Cheers
| > | >
| > | > Axel Emmermann
| > | >
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
| > | > To: 
| > | > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 7:24 PM
| > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
| > | >
| > | > | Mica, Talc, stibnite ground up for Kohl, eye make up, malachite,
iron
| > | > oxides,
| > | > | azurite, and many more.  Rouge was just hemetite at first. Now,
who
| > knows
| > | > what
| > | > | is in it?
| > | > |
| > | > | Walt
| > | > |
| > | > | CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
| > | > |
| > | > | > You are right!!  Including mica and talc!  Along with some
others
| > that
| > | > at the
| > | > | > moment I can't remember!  Not enough cawfee yet!
| > | > | >   Jackie
| > | > | >
| > | > | > In a message dated 9/8/02 10:31:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
| > | > | > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:
| > | > | >
| > | > | > > Historically, ground up rocks and minerals have been the
principal
| > | > | > > components of makeup for as long as it has been used.
| > | > | > >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
| > | > | > multipart/alternative
| > | > | >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
| > | > | >   text/html
| > | > | > ---
| > | > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > | > Subscription Services:
| > | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > | > |
| > | > | _______________________________________________
| > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > | Subscription Services:
| > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > Subscription Services:
| > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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| > |
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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|
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|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 17:08:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Tue Sep 10 16:08:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7E7B26.14D0@Tomaszewski.net>

CRAZYDOVE@aol.com wrote:
> 
> With all this cosmetic information   I think I may start
> powdering/crushing some of my minerals..

I think that is called a streak test.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 17:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 10 16:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <30.2cba108c.2aafddb6@aol.com>

Yessiree Bob..zactly!! Amazing how makeup is so closely tied in with mineral 
collecting!!  NOW I know why I love my minerals!!
                                          Jackie :)

In a message dated 9/10/02 7:09:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes:


> I think that is called a streak test.
> 



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 18:38:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 10 17:38:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: <30.2cba108c.2aafddb6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910144412.00aa3660@mail.aloha.net>

With all this cosmetic talk, to balance things out maybe we should go back 
to that thread last year about rockhounds with beards.

Kitty



>Yessiree Bob..zactly!! Amazing how makeup is so closely tied in with mineral
>collecting!!  NOW I know why I love my minerals!!
>                                           Jackie :)


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 10 21:16:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 10 20:16:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
Message-ID: <669748A6.63F4EFCF.02180873@aol.com>

Reminds me of the clone with a liking for raunchy stories. Eventually the original was so mortified by the clone's behavior that he lured him to the roof of a tall building and pushed him off. He was arrested for making an obscene clone fall. (sorry couldn't resist)

Gene

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 01:04:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler)
Date: Wed Sep 11 00:04:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
In-Reply-To: <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: 

Mmmmmm.... bier.... yummy.  (says a guy who just had too many beers on a
Tuesday night)

Making sure this is on topic:  I updated the North Jeffco Gem & Mineral
Club's website last night with pictures and trip reports from our last
several field trips. You can see links to them at:

  http://www.peaktopeak.com/minerals/njeffco/

Bob


-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:46 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas dinosaur's footpr int


Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on 32.545
square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom we
still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the next
guy...
Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high between
the piles of beer barrels.

Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
topic... maybe this will do:

Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
Belgium???
Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're on
topic).

MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air

Cheers Earl

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "earl verbeek" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


|
|
|
|
| >
| >| Hey Axel,
| >|
| >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| >|
| >| Bob
| >
|
| Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
"America"
| is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
Hudson
| Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all those
| nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
|
|                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
|
| _________________________________________________________________
| Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| http://www.hotmail.com
|
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 01:11:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler)
Date: Wed Sep 11 00:11:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur'sfootpr int
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Oh, now you are getting all technical on us.   :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of earl verbeek
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 6:22 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas dinosaur'sfootpr int






>
>| Hey Axel,
>|
>| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
>|
>| Bob
>

Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that "America"
is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of Hudson
Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all those
nations and you'd have the number of Americans.

                                Cheers-  Earl Verbeek

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 01:12:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bob Loeffler)
Date: Wed Sep 11 00:12:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
In-Reply-To: <002b01c258a3$96ba4ae0$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: 

Darn!  You caught me!

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:25 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas dinosaur's footpr int


| Hey Axel,
|
| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
|
| Bob

Ooops Bob!
But if 120.000.000 of you people make another 140.000.000 of you people on
such short notice.... who the heck has any time left to steal those freakin'
national treasures...
Oh, I seeeeee! There's a couple of you towing he line, isn't there? Naughty
naughty!

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm

| -----Original Message-----
| From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
| [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann
| Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:55 AM
| To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
| Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| Texas dinosaur's footpr int
|
|
| ;-))))))))))))
|
| Hi Bill,
|
| They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
| all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))
|
| I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
| footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.
|
| Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get
stolen...
| How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if one
of
| you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then
it
| would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
| bandits.
|
| I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))
|
| Best
|
| Axel Emmermann
| Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| Home : Lobbesplein 12
|             B-2640 Mortsel
|             Belgium
| Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| E-mail:
| axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| Visit our homepage:
| http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| Bezoek onze web-site:
| http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| My own web-site:
| http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
| To: 
| Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
| Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| dinosaur's footpr int
|
|
| | <>
| |
| |  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
| |
| |
|
|
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
| ----
|
|
| | _______________________________________________
| | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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| | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| |
|
|
| _______________________________________________
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|
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 01:16:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Patrick M. Harvey)
Date: Wed Sep 11 00:16:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: <3D7E397C.4CB88A99@earthlink.net>
References: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823031248.009f1070@mail.ao.net>

At 02:27 PM 9/10/2002, you wrote:
>Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is used to provide
>filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a cosmetic company
>about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found people were allergic
>to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to find a cosmetic
>grade mica supplier?  Very much then.
>
>Walt


So that's where the term "fish lips" came from...

Next you're going to tell us what hot dogs are made of!

d8^}

Patrick


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 03:50:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Wed Sep 11 02:50:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References: 
Message-ID: <003901c25979$83b09d60$c2aa77d5@pandora.be>

| Darn!  You caught me!
| Bob

Yes Bob, it felt as if a tremble, a great turmoil, ran through the force...
(with hollow voice and an Oxford-accent)
We all felt it here, lying on our backs with our bellies filled with beer.
Some of us even moaned "Darn, Bob 's not performing" while making noises
that better belong in an episode of the Simpsons (specifically: Moe's Café)
as the tremble caused the carbon dioxide in our bellies to exsolve from the
beer.  (hallucinant, isn't it?)

To put us on topic I will now explain the word exsolve since it has bearing
on geology:
exsolve /Ik"sQlv, Ek-/
· v. [usu. as adj. exsolved] Geology (with reference to minerals) separate
out from solid solution in a rock.
- DERIVATIVES exsolution n.
- ORIGIN C20: orig. as exsolution, from ex-1 + solution.

May the force be with you

Axel


| Darn!  You caught me!
=====================|
| | Hey Axel,
| |
| | Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| |
| | Bob
|
| Ooops Bob!
| But if 120.000.000 of you people make another 140.000.000 of you people on
| such short notice....  then who the heck has any time left to steal those
freakin'
| national treasures...
| Oh, I seeeeee! There's a couple of you towing he line, isn't there?
Naughty
| naughty!
|
| Axel Emmermann
| Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| Home : Lobbesplein 12
|             B-2640 Mortsel
|             Belgium
| Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| E-mail:
| axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| Visit our homepage:
| http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| Bezoek onze web-site:
| http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| My own web-site:
| http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
|
| | -----Original Message-----
| | From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
| | [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann
| | Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:55 AM
| | To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
| | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| | Texas dinosaur's footpr int
| |
| |
| | ;-))))))))))))
| |
| | Hi Bill,
| |
| | They must have done that while I was sleeping! Oh well, can't watch them
| | all... There are just too many crooks. ;-D)))))
| |
| | I still have the FBI's address should someone try to sell me those
| | footprints. I'll keep a sharp eye out on the market.
| |
| | Hey! I just got a brilliant idea to avoid that any more things get
| stolen...
| | How many of you are there in the US? Some 120 million or so? Well, if
one
| of
| | you stayed awake and stood watch each night and you all took turns, then
| it
| | would be your turn only every 328767 years. Ha! That would teach them
| | bandits.
| |
| | I think it's time for my injection and a cold shower ;-)))))
| |
| | Best
| |
| | Axel Emmermann
| | Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| | Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| | Home : Lobbesplein 12
| |             B-2640 Mortsel
| |             Belgium
| | Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| | E-mail:
| | axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| | Visit our homepage:
| | http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| | Bezoek onze web-site:
| | http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| | My own web-site:
| | http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| | ----- Original Message -----
| | From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" 
| | To: 
| | Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:39 PM
| | Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| | dinosaur's footpr int
| |
| |
| | | <>
| | |
| | |  http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1567117
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
|
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------
| --
| | ----
| |
| |
| | | _______________________________________________
| | | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| | | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| | | Subscription Services:
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| | |
| |
| |
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| |
| |
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| |
|
|
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|
|
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|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 04:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch)
Date: Wed Sep 11 03:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc>

Hi group,

This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was to give
a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South West
Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million square
kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus about 1
person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).

Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this piece of
statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam is
today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one day,
meat and corn the next day, without any pay.

I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River Canyon (a
"mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and takiing
4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt Tour"
of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting 22
mines and collecting sites.

Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me personally, the
times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.

Horst ---- Original Message -----
From: "Axel Emmermann" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


> Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on 32.545
> square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
> Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom we
> still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the next
> guy...
> Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
> Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
between
> the piles of beer barrels.
>
> Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
> topic... maybe this will do:
>
> Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
> Belgium???
> Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're on
> topic).
>
> MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
> davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
>
> Cheers Earl
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "earl verbeek" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |
> | >
> | >| Hey Axel,
> | >|
> | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> | >|
> | >| Bob
> | >
> |
> | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
> "America"
> | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
> Hudson
> | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all
those
> | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> |
> |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> |
> | _________________________________________________________________
> | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> | http://www.hotmail.com
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 06:22:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch)
Date: Wed Sep 11 05:22:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <000401c2598c$e163c1e0$b74027c4@horstspc>

Sorry, forgot to respond to the second part of the message. South Africa has
61 type locality minerals. Last year I made up a showcase in the Museum of
the Council for Geoscience (where I have been working as a volunteer on and
off for the past 11 years), but the Museum only has nine of these. In the
meantime, this showcase has been temporarily removed, due to the revamping
and reconstruction of the mineral displas, which will take part in three
phases.

Namibia of course, also has a host of type locality specimens, 40 coming
alone from Tsumeb (may even be a few more, I am quoting from Gebhard's book
"Tsumeb II", published in 1999.

Regards,
Horst
----- Original Message -----
From: "Axel Emmermann" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


> Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on 32.545
> square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
> Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom we
> still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the next
> guy...
> Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
> Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
between
> the piles of beer barrels.
>
> Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
> topic... maybe this will do:
>
> Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
> Belgium???
> Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're on
> topic).
>
> MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
> davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
>
> Cheers Earl
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "earl verbeek" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
>
> |
> |
> |
> |
> | >
> | >| Hey Axel,
> | >|
> | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> | >|
> | >| Bob
> | >
> |
> | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
> "America"
> | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
> Hudson
> | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all
those
> | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> |
> |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> |
> | _________________________________________________________________
> | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> | http://www.hotmail.com
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 07:15:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 06:15:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References:  <5.1.0.14.0.20020823031248.009f1070@mail.ao.net>
Message-ID: <3D7F41B6.75DEDE2F@earthlink.net>

I WOULD NEVER BEEE THAT CRUEL.

Hot dogs and sausages??? Never.

"Patrick M. Harvey" wrote:

> At 02:27 PM 9/10/2002, you wrote:
> >Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is used to provide
> >filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a cosmetic company
> >about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found people were allergic
> >to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to find a cosmetic
> >grade mica supplier?  Very much then.
> >
> >Walt
>
> So that's where the term "fish lips" came from...
>
> Next you're going to tell us what hot dogs are made of!
>
> d8^}
>
> Patrick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 07:42:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Wed Sep 11 06:42:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc>
Message-ID: <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be>

Hello Horst

61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as much.
So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!

Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the mineram
treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?

Best

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "horstwindisch" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


| Hi group,
|
| This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
| participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was to
give
| a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South West
| Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million square
| kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus about 1
| person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
| population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
|
| Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this piece of
| statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam is
| today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
| years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one day,
| meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
|
| I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River Canyon
(a
| "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and
takiing
| 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt
Tour"
| of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting 22
| mines and collecting sites.
|
| Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
| entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me personally,
the
| times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
| wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
|
| Horst ---- Original Message -----
| From: "Axel Emmermann" 
| To: 
| Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
| Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| dinosaur's footpr int
|
|
| > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on
32.545
| > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
| > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
| > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom
we
| > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the
next
| > guy...
| > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
| > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
| > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
| between
| > the piles of beer barrels.
| >
| > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
| > topic... maybe this will do:
| >
| > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
| > Belgium???
| > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're
on
| > topic).
| >
| > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
| > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
| > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
| > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
| > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
| > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
| > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
| > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
| > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
| > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
| > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
| > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
| > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
| > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
| > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
| > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
| > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
| >
| > Cheers Earl
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "earl verbeek" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
| > dinosaur's footpr int
| >
| >
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | >
| > | >| Hey Axel,
| > | >|
| > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| > | >|
| > | >| Bob
| > | >
| > |
| > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
| > "America"
| > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
| > Hudson
| > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all
| those
| > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
| > |
| > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
| > |
| > | _________________________________________________________________
| > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| > | http://www.hotmail.com
| > |
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | Subscription Services:
| > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| >
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| >
|
|
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| Subscription Services:
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|
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 10:57:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM)
Date: Wed Sep 11 09:57:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] From an Australian Rockhound
References: <16f.138acd95.2ab032be@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7F7649.17570878@cox.net>

A Tribute for all of us,
Teresa

"Hi All,

Here is my private message of sympathy to those who
lost friends and loved ones:



Please feel free to forward this to your friends.

Gus."


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 11:47:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 10:47:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net>

I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it a few
times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat, similar
to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with France,you get
near to the Saar, don't you?

Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo materials
you find.

Walt

Axel Emmermann wrote:

> Hello Horst
>
> 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as much.
> So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
>
> Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the mineram
> treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
>
> Best
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "horstwindisch" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
> | Hi group,
> |
> | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
> | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was to
> give
> | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South West
> | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million square
> | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus about 1
> | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
> | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> |
> | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this piece of
> | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam is
> | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
> | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one day,
> | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> |
> | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River Canyon
> (a
> | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and
> takiing
> | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt
> Tour"
> | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting 22
> | mines and collecting sites.
> |
> | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
> | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me personally,
> the
> | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
> | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
> |
> | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> | To: 
> | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> | dinosaur's footpr int
> |
> |
> | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on
> 32.545
> | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
> | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty kingdom
> we
> | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the
> next
> | > guy...
> | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so actually
> | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
> | between
> | > the piles of beer barrels.
> | >
> | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
> | > topic... maybe this will do:
> | >
> | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
> | > Belgium???
> | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so we're
> on
> | > topic).
> | >
> | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
> | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> | >
> | > Cheers Earl
> | >
> | > Axel Emmermann
> | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> | >             Belgium
> | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> | > E-mail:
> | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> | > Visit our homepage:
> | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> | > My own web-site:
> | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> | > To: 
> | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> | > dinosaur's footpr int
> | >
> | >
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > | >
> | > | >| Hey Axel,
> | > | >|
> | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> | > | >|
> | > | >| Bob
> | > | >
> | > |
> | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
> | > "America"
> | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north of
> | > Hudson
> | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all
> | those
> | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> | > |
> | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> | > |
> | > | _________________________________________________________________
> | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> | > |
> | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > | Subscription Services:
> | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | > |
> | >
> | >
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > Subscription Services:
> | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | >
> |
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
> |
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 13:12:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 11 12:12:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] From an Australian Rockhound
Message-ID: 

damn, damn, damn....mine never gort that bad...I just have a little indented 
scar on my stomach.

We have had our share of them things around here this year...along with all 
the other spiders....

YUK



For now and till then.

JOHN


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 13:23:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 11 12:23:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] ooops
Message-ID: <8.2c4971f7.2ab0f1d5@aol.com>

Sorry about that, got the right message on the wrong reply. That was in reply 
to a friend about Brown Recluse Spider Bites....

Anyway, remember to shake out them bedsheets, pants etc when in the outback 
or wherever. . . .just in case.

For now and till then.

JOHN


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 13:24:08 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch)
Date: Wed Sep 11 12:24:08 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <001a01c259c7$dacfa340$a44027c4@horstspc>

Hi Axel,
Got your message,. but you have used the wrong figures; I said Namibia was 1
100 00 sq km. South Africa is still more than that (figure not readily
available at moment( and here 61 type locality minerals have been found.
Namibia has 40 (from Tsumeb) plus a few others. (My literature is not handy
at the moment).

I know your fellow collectors are in South Africa and Namnibia at the
moment. They landed at Johannesburg International Airport on Mondday
morning, but I could not go and meet them, as I still have a driving ban
from my doctor and my wife may also not yet travel on the hghways. They were
going to leave immediately for Kuuman, for which I gave them two contact
addresses (may be visiting these chaps at this very moment, or tomorrow
morning early). Also put them in to contact with the the lithium mine near
Karibib on which my father-in-law is buried, a site which the group that I
led through Namibia in April, visited on 13th April..

I would have liked to meet them especially Rik Dillen and Paul van Hee, but
I am somewhat limited in my traveling at the moment after my serious car
accident on 1st June.

Kind regards,
Horst  ----- Original Message -----
From: "Axel Emmermann" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


> Hello Horst
>
> 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as much.
> So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
>
> Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the mineram
> treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
>
> Best
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "horstwindisch" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
>
> | Hi group,
> |
> | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
> | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was to
> give
> | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South
West
> | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million square
> | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus about
1
> | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
> | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> |
> | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this piece
of
> | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam is
> | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
> | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one
day,
> | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> |
> | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
Canyon
> (a
> | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and
> takiing
> | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt
> Tour"
> | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting
22
> | mines and collecting sites.
> |
> | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
> | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me personally,
> the
> | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
> | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
> |
> | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> | To: 
> | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
> | dinosaur's footpr int
> |
> |
> | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on
> 32.545
> | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's 793
> | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
kingdom
> we
> | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the
> next
> | > guy...
> | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
actually
> | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
> | between
> | > the piles of beer barrels.
> | >
> | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least NEAR)
> | > topic... maybe this will do:
> | >
> | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile in
> | > Belgium???
> | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so
we're
> on
> | > topic).
> | >
> | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
> | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> | >
> | > Cheers Earl
> | >
> | > Axel Emmermann
> | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> | >             Belgium
> | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> | > E-mail:
> | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> | > Visit our homepage:
> | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> | > My own web-site:
> | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> | > To: 
> | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> | > dinosaur's footpr int
> | >
> | >
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > | >
> | > | >| Hey Axel,
> | > | >|
> | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> | > | >|
> | > | >| Bob
> | > | >
> | > |
> | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
> | > "America"
> | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north
of
> | > Hudson
> | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of all
> | those
> | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> | > |
> | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> | > |
> | > | _________________________________________________________________
> | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> | > |
> | > | _______________________________________________
> | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > | Subscription Services:
> | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | > |
> | >
> | >
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > Subscription Services:
> | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | >
> |
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
> |
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 14:35:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 11 13:35:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
Message-ID: <189.dcb10e9.2ab102cb@aol.com>

Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens labeled from 
Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry, Waterloo, Black 
Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.

Topozone shows a quarry just east of Raymond, but only sandpits in the City 
of Waterloo.

?, Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 15:40:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly)
Date: Wed Sep 11 14:40:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
References: <189.dcb10e9.2ab102cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c259da$a4387060$695204d0@jim>

Raymond is the only one I know of. I'll check further with people at my club
in Illinois on Saturday.
Jim Daly
Sauktown Sales
Microminerals and mounting supplies
http://www.geocities.com/sauktown/
sauktown@adsnet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:34 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry


> Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens labeled
from
> Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry, Waterloo,
Black
> Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.
>
> Topozone shows a quarry just east of Raymond, but only sandpits in the
City
> of Waterloo.
>
> ?, Van
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 16:15:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Wed Sep 11 15:15:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas  dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be>

A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff worth
collecting.
The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern half
is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic localities...
mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing calcite
http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there seems
to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still some
discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy confirms it but
rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles on a
calcite matrix... you just have to see it
http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?

We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry. Smal
but nice epidote is found there.

Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel in
Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...

The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....

Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps of the
old coalmines.

Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both colors
on one specimen.

We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector: Sclaigneaux.
Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm

Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM on the
subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy" for the
pics)

Oooops, it's bedtime already...

See you tomorrow

Axel






Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


| I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it a
few
| times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
| Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat,
similar
| to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with France,you
get
| near to the Saar, don't you?
|
| Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo
materials
| you find.
|
| Walt
|
| Axel Emmermann wrote:
|
| > Hello Horst
| >
| > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
| > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
| > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
much.
| > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
| >
| > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
mineram
| > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
| > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
| >
| > Best
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "horstwindisch" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
| > dinosaur's footpr int
| >
| > | Hi group,
| > |
| > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
| > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was
to
| > give
| > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South
West
| > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
square
| > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
about 1
| > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
| > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
| > |
| > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
piece of
| > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam
is
| > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
| > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one
day,
| > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
| > |
| > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
Canyon
| > (a
| > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and
| > takiing
| > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt
| > Tour"
| > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting
22
| > | mines and collecting sites.
| > |
| > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
| > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
personally,
| > the
| > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
| > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
| > |
| > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
| > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
| > | To: 
| > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
| > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
| > | dinosaur's footpr int
| > |
| > |
| > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on
| > 32.545
| > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's
793
| > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
| > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
kingdom
| > we
| > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the
| > next
| > | > guy...
| > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
| > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
actually
| > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
| > | between
| > | > the piles of beer barrels.
| > | >
| > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
NEAR)
| > | > topic... maybe this will do:
| > | >
| > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile
in
| > | > Belgium???
| > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so
we're
| > on
| > | > topic).
| > | >
| > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
| > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
| > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
| > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
| > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
| > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
| > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
| > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
| > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
| > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
| > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
| > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
| > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
| > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
| > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
| > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
| > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
| > | >
| > | > Cheers Earl
| > | >
| > | > Axel Emmermann
| > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
| > | >             Belgium
| > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > | > E-mail:
| > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > | > Visit our homepage:
| > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > | > My own web-site:
| > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
| > | > To: 
| > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
| > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| > Texas
| > | > dinosaur's footpr int
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > | >
| > | > | >| Hey Axel,
| > | > | >|
| > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| > | > | >|
| > | > | >| Bob
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
| > | > "America"
| > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north
of
| > | > Hudson
| > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of
all
| > | those
| > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
| > | > |
| > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
| > | > |
| > | > | _________________________________________________________________
| > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
| > | > |
| > | > | _______________________________________________
| > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > | Subscription Services:
| > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > _______________________________________________
| > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > Subscription Services:
| > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > | _______________________________________________
| > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | Subscription Services:
| > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > |
| > |
| >
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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| Subscription Services:
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|
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 16:34:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TFAJr)
Date: Wed Sep 11 15:34:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: <3D7F41B6.75DEDE2F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

Pyrophyllite is also used as a filler and medium for cosmetics as is mica,
calcite, talc.

I actually find this a pretty interestiong thread and since we have a
resident ex-cosmetic manufacturer, perhaps a list of all the naturally
occuring minerals that are or have been used in cosmetics would be
interesting.

As a side note not about cosmetices, white lead was at once used to
adulterate bad wine to make it taste better.

Tommy Armstrong
N 35*  23' 52''    W 78* 49'  9''

"Wit is the unexpected copulation of ideas"  Patrick O'Brian Post
Captain




> -----Original Message-----
> From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
> [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S.
> Bowser
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:14 AM
> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>
>
> I WOULD NEVER BEEE THAT CRUEL.
>
> Hot dogs and sausages??? Never.
>
> "Patrick M. Harvey" wrote:
>
> > At 02:27 PM 9/10/2002, you wrote:
> > >Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is
> used to provide
> > >filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a
> cosmetic company
> > >about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found
> people were allergic
> > >to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to
> find a cosmetic
> > >grade mica supplier?  Very much then.
> > >
> > >Walt
> >
> > So that's where the term "fish lips" came from...
> >
> > Next you're going to tell us what hot dogs are made of!
> >
> > d8^}
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 17:54:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 16:54:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net>

Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.  Yeah, Herr
schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important stuff. They
were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.  Doubt if they
ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.

Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are a shifty
lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of letting them
off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they learned
their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a select few who
are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs, and such.
Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.  Need I
say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from those
types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can get to
things like that.

How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?

The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains are large
enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I have been
in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in pockets,
some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in places.
Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist there.
He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come to think
of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good geologist
and good collector. Has a great eye.

Walt

Axel Emmermann wrote:

> A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff worth
> collecting.
> The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern half
> is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic localities...
> mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing calcite
> http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there seems
> to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still some
> discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy confirms it but
> rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles on a
> calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
>
> We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry. Smal
> but nice epidote is found there.
>
> Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel in
> Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
>
> The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
>
> Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps of the
> old coalmines.
>
> Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both colors
> on one specimen.
>
> We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector: Sclaigneaux.
> Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
>
> Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM on the
> subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy" for the
> pics)
>
> Oooops, it's bedtime already...
>
> See you tomorrow
>
> Axel
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
> | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it a
> few
> | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
> | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat,
> similar
> | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with France,you
> get
> | near to the Saar, don't you?
> |
> | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo
> materials
> | you find.
> |
> | Walt
> |
> | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> |
> | > Hello Horst
> | >
> | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
> much.
> | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> | >
> | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
> mineram
> | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> | >
> | > Best
> | >
> | > Axel Emmermann
> | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> | >             Belgium
> | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> | > E-mail:
> | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> | > Visit our homepage:
> | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> | > My own web-site:
> | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> | > To: 
> | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> | > dinosaur's footpr int
> | >
> | > | Hi group,
> | > |
> | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
> | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was
> to
> | > give
> | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South
> West
> | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
> square
> | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
> about 1
> | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
> | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> | > |
> | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
> piece of
> | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam
> is
> | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
> | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one
> day,
> | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> | > |
> | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
> Canyon
> | > (a
> | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and
> | > takiing
> | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt
> | > Tour"
> | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting
> 22
> | > | mines and collecting sites.
> | > |
> | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
> | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> personally,
> | > the
> | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
> | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
> | > |
> | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> | > | To: 
> | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> | > |
> | > |
> | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on
> | > 32.545
> | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's
> 793
> | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
> kingdom
> | > we
> | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the
> | > next
> | > | > guy...
> | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
> actually
> | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
> | > | between
> | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> | > | >
> | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
> NEAR)
> | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> | > | >
> | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile
> in
> | > | > Belgium???
> | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so
> we're
> | > on
> | > | > topic).
> | > | >
> | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
> | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> | > | >
> | > | > Cheers Earl
> | > | >
> | > | > Axel Emmermann
> | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> | > | >             Belgium
> | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> | > | > E-mail:
> | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> | > | > Visit our homepage:
> | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> | > | > My own web-site:
> | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> | > | > To: 
> | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> | > Texas
> | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > | >
> | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> | > | > | >|
> | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> | > | > | >|
> | > | > | >| Bob
> | > | > | >
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
> | > | > "America"
> | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north
> of
> | > | > Hudson
> | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of
> all
> | > | those
> | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> | > | > |
> | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> | > | > |
> | > | > | _________________________________________________________________
> | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> | > | > |
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:15:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:15:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas   dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt>

hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?

I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than Chinese
people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.

Make sense to you?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


> Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.  Yeah,
Herr
> schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important stuff.
They
> were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.  Doubt if
they
> ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
>
> Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are a
shifty
> lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of letting
them
> off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
learned
> their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a select
few who
> are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs, and
such.
> Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.  Need
I
> say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from those
> types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can get
to
> things like that.
>
> How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
>
> The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains are
large
> enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I have
been
> in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
pockets,
> some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
places.
> Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
there.
> He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come to
think
> of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
geologist
> and good collector. Has a great eye.
>
> Walt
>
> Axel Emmermann wrote:
>
> > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff worth
> > collecting.
> > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
half
> > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
localities...
> > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing calcite
> > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
seems
> > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
some
> > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy confirms it
but
> > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles on a
> > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> >
> > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
Smal
> > but nice epidote is found there.
> >
> > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel in
> > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> >
> > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> >
> > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps of
the
> > old coalmines.
> >
> > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
colors
> > on one specimen.
> >
> > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector: Sclaigneaux.
> > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> >
> > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM on
the
> > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy" for
the
> > pics)
> >
> > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> >
> > See you tomorrow
> >
> > Axel
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> >             B-2640 Mortsel
> >             Belgium
> > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > E-mail:
> > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > Visit our homepage:
> > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > My own web-site:
> > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
> > dinosaur's footpr int
> >
> > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it
a
> > few
> > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
> > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat,
> > similar
> > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
France,you
> > get
> > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > |
> > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo
> > materials
> > | you find.
> > |
> > | Walt
> > |
> > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > |
> > | > Hello Horst
> > | >
> > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
> > much.
> > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > | >
> > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
> > mineram
> > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > | >
> > | > Best
> > | >
> > | > Axel Emmermann
> > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > | >             Belgium
> > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > | > E-mail:
> > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > | > Visit our homepage:
> > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > | > My own web-site:
> > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > | > To: 
> > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > Texas
> > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > | >
> > | > | Hi group,
> > | > |
> > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I
was
> > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment
was
> > to
> > | > give
> > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
South
> > West
> > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
> > square
> > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
> > about 1
> > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction -
the
> > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > | > |
> > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
> > piece of
> > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap
Dam
> > is
> > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
depression
> > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat
one
> > day,
> > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > | > |
> > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
> > Canyon
> > | > (a
> > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack
and
> > | > takiing
> > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
Rockhunt
> > | > Tour"
> > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
visiting
> > 22
> > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > | > |
> > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
Namibia
> > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > personally,
> > | > the
> > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild
life
> > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
> > | > |
> > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > | > | To: 
> > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
> > Texas
> > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > | > |
> > | > |
> > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living
on
> > | > 32.545
> > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
That's
> > 793
> > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
> > kingdom
> > | > we
> > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting
the
> > | > next
> > | > | > guy...
> > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
> > actually
> > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people
high
> > | > | between
> > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > | > | >
> > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
> > NEAR)
> > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > | > | >
> > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square
mile
> > in
> > | > | > Belgium???
> > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals
so
> > we're
> > | > on
> > | > | > topic).
> > | > | >
> > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
dewalquite
> > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > | > | >
> > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > | > | >
> > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > | > | >             Belgium
> > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > | > | > E-mail:
> > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > | > | > My own web-site:
> > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > | > | > To: 
> > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
> > | > Texas
> > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > | > | >
> > | > | >
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > | >
> > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > | > | > | >|
> > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > | > | > | >|
> > | > | > | >| Bob
> > | > | > | >
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering
that
> > | > | > "America"
> > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from
north
> > of
> > | > | > Hudson
> > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population
of
> > all
> > | > | those
> > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > |
_________________________________________________________________
> > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > | > | > |
> > | > | > | _______________________________________________
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> > | > | > | Subscription Services:
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> > | > | > |
> > | > | >
> > | > | >
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:17:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:17:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
Message-ID: 

Wouldn't it be funny if there were plentiful quartz there?

You might collect a gallon of Pint's quartz.

Flint

> Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens labeled from 
>  Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry, Waterloo, 
Black 
> 
>  Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.
>  

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:26:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:26:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7FDEF2.DF17A347@earthlink.net>

Resident ex-cosmetic Manufacturer????  Well, I have been many things and that
is the first time I have been called that.  HAHA.  Thanks.  A new title to
add to the many I have collected over the years.

My chemist and I would work on things and try to get them as "natural" as
possible.  The problem with natural minerals is that the quality and grade is
not consistant.  As Mr. Schmidt pointed out, Mica is not hard to find if you
"know where to look." Hell, any dummy can find mica.  Right?  However, that
is the easy part.  Consistant high quality mica with no adulterants no
impurities and no iron or iron oxides in them are hard to find in consistant
supply.  There was one place in Arizona that we finally used.  It was up to
specs. and we got good stuff.  I visited the mine and the material that they
found was amazing.  I am still at the point where I get excited by all of
this even though I have been at it for more years than I want to admit to.
They mined the material by ripping these huge veins of mica outof the ground
with a dozer with ripper blades on it.  It was used for scrap only in this
operation.  For the insulators and things they worked huge, 2 and 3 meter
sections out of the ground.  It is a great place to collect.

The mica was perfectly clear to white.  What we needed.  Now and then they
would find some which was oddly colored and oddly stained.  That had to be
hand culled if it was only a small amount.

Interesting area, around there too.

Most of the materials were chemically derrived from minerals, but were not
the minerals themselves.  The treatment process made them consistant enough
to work with.

One thing which we did get to use directly was dirt.  Yep, good old dirt.
There is an area in Northern Arizona, where I own some land,  which has the
best, naturally fine sized, montmorillimite, Spelling????. clay on it.  This
was fed into a ball mill and milled to a size finer than talk. We packed it
in small clay pots for bronzing powder.  Mixed it with some Hectorite and
milled it into bronzing sticks. Hectorite is a naturally occurring,
inorganic, I believe, waxy clay found in the Hector hills of California.
Made a lot of money and had a lot of fun with it.  A lot of our formulas are
proprietary and can't be revealed, but even the "Secret Formula" for coke or
any cosmetic or any other thing is listed in rank orderr of materials on the
side.  One doesnot have to be too smart to figure out the "formula"  We used
gypsum, calcite, only the finest grade of optical calcite was pure enough to
use, Pyrophyllite in small doses.  Some of the Zeolites we used in the
filtering processes.  We used various clays as binders and to absorb water.
We had masks made of various clays to use to rejuvinate your face.  Tried
them but the effect was lost on me.  Might have improved my skin, no wrinkles
at age 65, but didn't improve my looks.  OH, growing old is not what it is
cracked up to be.  Better than the other possibility, however.

We had to reject a lot of mineral samples sent to us as possible sources for
ingredients because of naturally occurring contamination with lead, arsenic,
phosporous, iron, copper, manganese.

We did use a lot of manganese ores from out in the Blythe area at the old
Arlington Mine area for darrkening agents in the cosmetics.  We could have
obtained carbon black as a substitute much cheaper, but there are
carcinogenic potentials with some of the carbon black componnents. We elected
to have a thousand tons of the manganese ore crushed and shipped. It was pure
enough.  We got another 500 tons from the Big Indian claim out near
Randsburg.  That was a little harder to have milled to specs.

We used to use a lot of diatomaceous earth in filters to clear the liquors we
used as bases and also in various scrubs to actually scour the face.

There is a lot more, but this probably much more than you really wanted to
know.

We also used vegetable and fruit derivatives.   Peach seed extract, minus the
cyanide, grape seed, avocado, grape pulp and skins, orange, lemon, grapefruit
pulp, juice, and rind, tomatoe seed pieces, almond oil and pieces, walnut
hulls and meat, cactus extracts, juice and pulp, yucca root base, ( the same
stuff the Navajos use to clean their hair and a few years after we used it
came out as Yucca Dew Shampoo) Aloe, jojoba berry juice and oil and pulp, and
tons more stuff.  Lots of bees wax and natural waxes.  Stayed away from any
but plant proteins, just a way I wanted it, and use plants.  Much less chance
of people getting a rash or being allergic to any ingredient.

Tommy, aren't you sorry you got me started.


See you later.

Walt

TFAJr wrote:

> Pyrophyllite is also used as a filler and medium for cosmetics as is mica,
> calcite, talc.
>
> I actually find this a pretty interestiong thread and since we have a
> resident ex-cosmetic manufacturer, perhaps a list of all the naturally
> occuring minerals that are or have been used in cosmetics would be
> interesting.
>
> As a side note not about cosmetices, white lead was at once used to
> adulterate bad wine to make it taste better.
>
> Tommy Armstrong
> N 35*  23' 52''    W 78* 49'  9''
>
> "Wit is the unexpected copulation of ideas"  Patrick O'Brian Post
> Captain
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
> > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Walter S.
> > Bowser
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:14 AM
> > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
> >
> >
> > I WOULD NEVER BEEE THAT CRUEL.
> >
> > Hot dogs and sausages??? Never.
> >
> > "Patrick M. Harvey" wrote:
> >
> > > At 02:27 PM 9/10/2002, you wrote:
> > > >Remember cinnabar and some of the others are toxic.  Mica is
> > used to provide
> > > >filler and glitter for powder, lipstick, shadow, etc. I had a
> > cosmetic company
> > > >about 25 years ago.  We used to use fish scales but found
> > people were allergic
> > > >to them.  We switched to mica.  Do you know how hard it was to
> > find a cosmetic
> > > >grade mica supplier?  Very much then.
> > > >
> > > >Walt
> > >
> > > So that's where the term "fish lips" came from...
> > >
> > > Next you're going to tell us what hot dogs are made of!
> > >
> > > d8^}
> > >
> > > Patrick
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:37:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:37:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net>

Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.



Michael Schmidt wrote:

> hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
>
> I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than Chinese
> people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
>
> Make sense to you?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
> > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.  Yeah,
> Herr
> > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important stuff.
> They
> > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.  Doubt if
> they
> > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> >
> > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are a
> shifty
> > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of letting
> them
> > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
> learned
> > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a select
> few who
> > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs, and
> such.
> > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.  Need
> I
> > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from those
> > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can get
> to
> > things like that.
> >
> > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> >
> > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains are
> large
> > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I have
> been
> > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
> pockets,
> > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
> places.
> > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
> there.
> > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come to
> think
> > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
> geologist
> > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> >
> > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff worth
> > > collecting.
> > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
> half
> > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> localities...
> > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing calcite
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
> seems
> > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
> some
> > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy confirms it
> but
> > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles on a
> > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > >
> > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
> Smal
> > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > >
> > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel in
> > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > >
> > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > >
> > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps of
> the
> > > old coalmines.
> > >
> > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
> colors
> > > on one specimen.
> > >
> > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector: Sclaigneaux.
> > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > >
> > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM on
> the
> > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy" for
> the
> > > pics)
> > >
> > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > >
> > > See you tomorrow
> > >
> > > Axel
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann
> > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > >             Belgium
> > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > E-mail:
> > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > Visit our homepage:
> > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > My own web-site:
> > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > >
> > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it
> a
> > > few
> > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
> > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat,
> > > similar
> > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
> France,you
> > > get
> > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > |
> > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo
> > > materials
> > > | you find.
> > > |
> > > | Walt
> > > |
> > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > |
> > > | > Hello Horst
> > > | >
> > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
> > > much.
> > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > | >
> > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
> > > mineram
> > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > | >
> > > | > Best
> > > | >
> > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > | >             Belgium
> > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > | > E-mail:
> > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > | > My own web-site:
> > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > | > To: 
> > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > > Texas
> > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > | >
> > > | > | Hi group,
> > > | > |
> > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I
> was
> > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment
> was
> > > to
> > > | > give
> > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
> South
> > > West
> > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
> > > square
> > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
> > > about 1
> > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction -
> the
> > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > | > |
> > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
> > > piece of
> > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap
> Dam
> > > is
> > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
> depression
> > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat
> one
> > > day,
> > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > | > |
> > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
> > > Canyon
> > > | > (a
> > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack
> and
> > > | > takiing
> > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
> Rockhunt
> > > | > Tour"
> > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
> visiting
> > > 22
> > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > | > |
> > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
> Namibia
> > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > > personally,
> > > | > the
> > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild
> life
> > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
> > > | > |
> > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > | > | To: 
> > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > Texas
> > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > | > |
> > > | > |
> > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living
> on
> > > | > 32.545
> > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
> That's
> > > 793
> > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
> > > kingdom
> > > | > we
> > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting
> the
> > > | > next
> > > | > | > guy...
> > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
> > > actually
> > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people
> high
> > > | > | between
> > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
> > > NEAR)
> > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square
> mile
> > > in
> > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals
> so
> > > we're
> > > | > on
> > > | > | > topic).
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> dewalquite
> > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > | > | > To: 
> > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > | > Texas
> > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > | >
> > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > | > | > | >|
> > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > > | > | > | >|
> > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > | > | > | >
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering
> that
> > > | > | > "America"
> > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from
> north
> > > of
> > > | > | > Hudson
> > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population
> of
> > > all
> > > | > | those
> > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > | _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:37:59 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:37:59 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
References: 
Message-ID: <3D7FE1C6.32949425@earthlink.net>

That is BAAAAaaaaad, rotten, uncalled for and VERy punny.  Cute.  Luv it.

walt

Bozo5@aol.com wrote:

> Wouldn't it be funny if there were plentiful quartz there?
>
> You might collect a gallon of Pint's quartz.
>
> Flint
>
> > Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens labeled from
> >  Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry, Waterloo,
> Black
> >
> >  Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.
> >
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:42:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:42:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Hi Mike
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D7FE2A2.F1C416AC@earthlink.net>

Yeah, I thought that would get your goat.  Hey, What do you call Chinese?  I
call them Chinese, Or possibly Wang Fei, Yang Bai, Lieu Chung jie, or many
othere names.  Do you call them anything special?




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 18:47:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Wed Sep 11 17:47:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas    dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt>

it's your ignorance that is offensive, Walt.

your facetious response to me serves only to prove that you truly don't
understand that what you said could offend people.

but, alas.....I am sure that my pointing that out to you makes me a nazi in
your book.  Trying to keep you from doing your own thing and all......


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


> Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.
>
>
>
> Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> > hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
> >
> > I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than
Chinese
> > people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
> >
> > Make sense to you?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
> > dinosaur's footpr int
> >
> > > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.
Yeah,
> > Herr
> > > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important
stuff.
> > They
> > > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.
Doubt if
> > they
> > > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> > >
> > > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are
a
> > shifty
> > > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of
letting
> > them
> > > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
> > learned
> > > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a
select
> > few who
> > > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs,
and
> > such.
> > > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.
Need
> > I
> > > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from
those
> > > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can
get
> > to
> > > things like that.
> > >
> > > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> > >
> > > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains
are
> > large
> > > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I
have
> > been
> > > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> > > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
> > pockets,
> > > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
> > places.
> > > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
> > there.
> > > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come
to
> > think
> > > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
> > geologist
> > > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> > >
> > > Walt
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > >
> > > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff
worth
> > > > collecting.
> > > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
> > half
> > > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> > localities...
> > > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing
calcite
> > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
> > seems
> > > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
> > some
> > > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy
confirms it
> > but
> > > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles
on a
> > > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > > >
> > > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
> > Smal
> > > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > > >
> > > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel
in
> > > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > > >
> > > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > > >
> > > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps
of
> > the
> > > > old coalmines.
> > > >
> > > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
> > colors
> > > > on one specimen.
> > > >
> > > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector:
Sclaigneaux.
> > > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > > >
> > > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM
on
> > the
> > > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy"
for
> > the
> > > > pics)
> > > >
> > > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > > >
> > > > See you tomorrow
> > > >
> > > > Axel
> > > >
> > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > >             Belgium
> > > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > E-mail:
> > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > Visit our homepage:
> > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > My own web-site:
> > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > Texas
> > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > >
> > > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew
over it
> > a
> > > > few
> > > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the
"Low
> > > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather
flat,
> > > > similar
> > > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
> > France,you
> > > > get
> > > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > > |
> > > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type
fo
> > > > materials
> > > > | you find.
> > > > |
> > > > | Walt
> > > > |
> > > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > |
> > > > | > Hello Horst
> > > > | >
> > > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times
as
> > > > much.
> > > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > > | >
> > > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting
the
> > > > mineram
> > > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > > | >
> > > > | > Best
> > > > | >
> > > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > | >             Belgium
> > > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > | > E-mail:
> > > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > | > My own web-site:
> > > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > > | > To: 
> > > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
> > > > Texas
> > > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > | >
> > > > | > | Hi group,
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when
I
> > was
> > > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One
assignment
> > was
> > > > to
> > > > | > give
> > > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
> > South
> > > > West
> > > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1
million
> > > > square
> > > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million,
thus
> > > > about 1
> > > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under
correction -
> > the
> > > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine
this
> > > > piece of
> > > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the
Hardap
> > Dam
> > > > is
> > > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
> > depression
> > > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and
meat
> > one
> > > > day,
> > > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish
River
> > > > Canyon
> > > > | > (a
> > > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my
backpack
> > and
> > > > | > takiing
> > > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
> > Rockhunt
> > > > | > Tour"
> > > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
> > visiting
> > > > 22
> > > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
> > Namibia
> > > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > > > personally,
> > > > | > the
> > > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and
wild
> > life
> > > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the
world.
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > > | > | To: 
> > > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> > away
> > > > Texas
> > > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > |
> > > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians
living
> > on
> > > > | > 32.545
> > > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
> > That's
> > > > 793
> > > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our
mighty
> > > > kingdom
> > > > | > we
> > > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of
hitting
> > the
> > > > | > next
> > > > | > | > guy...
> > > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply
so
> > > > actually
> > > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4
people
> > high
> > > > | > | between
> > > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at
least
> > > > NEAR)
> > > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per
square
> > mile
> > > > in
> > > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real
minerals
> > so
> > > > we're
> > > > | > on
> > > > | > | > topic).
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> > dewalquite
> > > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > > | > | > To: 
> > > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
chisels
> > away
> > > > | > Texas
> > > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | >
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > | >
> > > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > > | > | > | >
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that,
considering
> > that
> > > > | > | > "America"
> > > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches
from
> > north
> > > > of
> > > > | > | > Hudson
> > > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the
population
> > of
> > > > all
> > > > | > | those
> > > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > > | > | > |
> > > > | > | > |
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > | > | > |
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 19:03:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Wed Sep 11 18:03:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footprint
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net>

Good Lord Walt, that was a bit disasteful; I found it quite offensive
and I'm second generation here.  Every country has done vile things;
please don't condemn the children for the sins of the fathers.  Before
you cast the first stone, maybe you'd like to hear a story about people
we call Indians . . .

On today, of all days, please let's everyone drop this and move
forward.  All these threads have been so much fun.  

Don

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 19:35:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox)
Date: Wed Sep 11 18:35:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footpr int
In-Reply-To: <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: 

Thread stops here, NOW.

Both of you, to your rooms without supper.  Don't make me get out the 
belt.

Aaron
R.A.

> it's your ignorance that is offensive, Walt.
> 
> your facetious response to me serves only to prove that you truly don't
> understand that what you said could offend people.
> 
> but, alas.....I am sure that my pointing that out to you makes me a nazi in
> your book.  Trying to keep you from doing your own thing and all......
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
> 
> 
> > Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > > hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
> > >
> > > I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than
> Chinese
> > > people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
> > >
> > > Make sense to you?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > >
> > > > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.
> Yeah,
> > > Herr
> > > > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important
> stuff.
> > > They
> > > > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.
> Doubt if
> > > they
> > > > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are
> a
> > > shifty
> > > > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of
> letting
> > > them
> > > > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
> > > learned
> > > > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a
> select
> > > few who
> > > > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs,
> and
> > > such.
> > > > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.
> Need
> > > I
> > > > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from
> those
> > > > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can
> get
> > > to
> > > > things like that.
> > > >
> > > > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> > > >
> > > > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains
> are
> > > large
> > > > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I
> have
> > > been
> > > > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> > > > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
> > > pockets,
> > > > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
> > > places.
> > > > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
> > > there.
> > > > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come
> to
> > > think
> > > > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
> > > geologist
> > > > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> > > >
> > > > Walt
> > > >
> > > > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff
> worth
> > > > > collecting.
> > > > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
> > > half
> > > > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> > > localities...
> > > > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing
> calcite
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
> > > seems
> > > > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
> > > some
> > > > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy
> confirms it
> > > but
> > > > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles
> on a
> > > > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > > > >
> > > > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
> > > Smal
> > > > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel
> in
> > > > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > > > >
> > > > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps
> of
> > > the
> > > > > old coalmines.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
> > > colors
> > > > > on one specimen.
> > > > >
> > > > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector:
> Sclaigneaux.
> > > > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > > > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM
> on
> > > the
> > > > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy"
> for
> > > the
> > > > > pics)
> > > > >
> > > > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > > > >
> > > > > See you tomorrow
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > >             Belgium
> > > > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > E-mail:
> > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > My own web-site:
> > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > > Texas
> > > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > >
> > > > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew
> over it
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the
> "Low
> > > > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather
> flat,
> > > > > similar
> > > > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
> > > France,you
> > > > > get
> > > > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type
> fo
> > > > > materials
> > > > > | you find.
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Walt
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > > |
> > > > > | > Hello Horst
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times
> as
> > > > > much.
> > > > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting
> the
> > > > > mineram
> > > > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Best
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > | >             Belgium
> > > > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > | > E-mail:
> > > > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > > > | > To: 
> > > > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > > > Texas
> > > > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > | Hi group,
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when
> I
> > > was
> > > > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One
> assignment
> > > was
> > > > > to
> > > > > | > give
> > > > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
> > > South
> > > > > West
> > > > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1
> million
> > > > > square
> > > > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million,
> thus
> > > > > about 1
> > > > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under
> correction -
> > > the
> > > > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine
> this
> > > > > piece of
> > > > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the
> Hardap
> > > Dam
> > > > > is
> > > > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
> > > depression
> > > > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and
> meat
> > > one
> > > > > day,
> > > > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish
> River
> > > > > Canyon
> > > > > | > (a
> > > > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my
> backpack
> > > and
> > > > > | > takiing
> > > > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
> > > Rockhunt
> > > > > | > Tour"
> > > > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
> > > visiting
> > > > > 22
> > > > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
> > > Namibia
> > > > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > > > > personally,
> > > > > | > the
> > > > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and
> wild
> > > life
> > > > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the
> world.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > > > | > | To: 
> > > > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> > > away
> > > > > Texas
> > > > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians
> living
> > > on
> > > > > | > 32.545
> > > > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
> > > That's
> > > > > 793
> > > > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our
> mighty
> > > > > kingdom
> > > > > | > we
> > > > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of
> hitting
> > > the
> > > > > | > next
> > > > > | > | > guy...
> > > > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply
> so
> > > > > actually
> > > > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4
> people
> > > high
> > > > > | > | between
> > > > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at
> least
> > > > > NEAR)
> > > > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per
> square
> > > mile
> > > > > in
> > > > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real
> minerals
> > > so
> > > > > we're
> > > > > | > on
> > > > > | > | > topic).
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> > > dewalquite
> > > > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > > > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > > > | > | > To: 
> > > > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
> chisels
> > > away
> > > > > | > Texas
> > > > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that,
> considering
> > > that
> > > > > | > | > "America"
> > > > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches
> from
> > > north
> > > > > of
> > > > > | > | > Hudson
> > > > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the
> population
> > > of
> > > > > all
> > > > > | > | those
> > > > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > > | > | > |
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 19:51:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (edq882)
Date: Wed Sep 11 18:51:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footprint
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D7FF31B.49965AF7@socal.rr.com>

I totally agree with Don, that comments such as Walt Bowser's towards Germans
(or any other ethnic or religious group, or nationality, or locality) should not
be tolerated.  Walt, I don't know of your history, but you have always seemed a
reasonable person, but in your comments, you are out of line.  If you can't
adjust your thinking to tolerate the aforementioned groups, please don't air
your views here.
Ed Quo


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 20:02:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave Guin)
Date: Wed Sep 11 19:02:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [OT] Kraut
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D7FF533.1010207@earthlink.net>

Read the whole post.  Focussing on one word exposes your prejudices, not 
the writer's.  The reference was to a specific faction from the past (I 
will admit there are some still active today), not about any current 
nationality or ethnicity.  No one was "condemn(ing) the children for the 
sins of the fathers."  To help illustrate the problems and complexities 
with this;  We much prefer to be called Native Americans (UNLESS your 
talking to my grandfather OR my children.  Then Indians is acceptable).

Peace,
dave

Don H wrote:

>Good Lord Walt, that was a bit disasteful; I found it quite offensive
>and I'm second generation here.  Every country has done vile things;
>please don't condemn the children for the sins of the fathers.  Before
>you cast the first stone, maybe you'd like to hear a story about people
>we call Indians . . .
>
>On today, of all days, please let's everyone drop this and move
>forward.  All these threads have been so much fun.  
>
>Don
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 20:07:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Wed Sep 11 19:07:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:fineness chart
References: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D7FF940.82D2273B@mindspring.com>

Does anyone know where I can obtain a color chart showing finenesses in
gold.


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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  text/plain (text body -- kept)
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 20:15:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox)
Date: Wed Sep 11 19:15:01 2002
Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com
In-Reply-To: <3D7FF31B.49965AF7@socal.rr.com>
Message-ID: 

Okay, once again, the thread stops now. Feel free to reply on topic, but 
let's keep it there.  I don't want to read sixty more 'right-or-wrong' 
posts.

After re-reading Walt's post, it can be argued that there may have been 
some poor choices of words.  However, if you actually READ 
the full post, you'll note that he's not trying to brand all Germans as
'krauts'; I quote directly from the original post:

"Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a select
few who are the neo-Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, 
dumkopfs, and such. Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others 
do their thing."

That being said, I remind everyone that one of the 'rules' for the list is 
that you treat it like you were in a polite conversation.  Like at a large 
family dinner, or your next club meeting.  In general, racial / religious 
/ sexual epithets and personal attacks don't fit into dinner  conversations. 
At my house, we wait at least until dessert, and often untill the beers 
get cracked.

So let's keep it clean, y'all

Aaron Fox
Rockhounds Admin

> I totally agree with Don, that comments such as Walt Bowser's towards Germans
> (or any other ethnic or religious group, or nationality, or locality) should not
> be tolerated.  Walt, I don't know of your history, but you have always seemed a
> reasonable person, but in your comments, you are out of line.  If you can't
> adjust your thinking to tolerate the aforementioned groups, please don't air
> your views here.
> Ed Quo
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> 

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  GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request

"I had a signature once, but I forgot to feed it. It died..."



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 20:33:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Wed Sep 11 19:33:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [OT] Kraut
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net> <3D7FF533.1010207@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D7FFD16.15C5D9C7@att.net>

That's why I said "we call Indians," implying that this is not what they
call themselves.  Actually, many
of the nations prefer to be called "First Nations" by us wasicun since
being called anything American has nothing to do with their own origins
and traditions.  Or, even better, would rather be called by their native
names in their own languages, like Ikce Wicasa or Lenni Lenape or Dineh
. . . and you thought I was just a nutty white guy.  I'm not politically
correct by any means, but if Walt's post made me uncomfortable, then it
did.  It also made me uncomfortable for our European list members, whose
excellent command of English often makes us forget that they have
different senses of humor and different sensibilities, and things they
don't like to talk about even to this day--if you've ever lived there,
then you know.  I wasn't making a big deal about it; just thought I'd
mention it.

I agree with your frequent signature, "Peace."  I also respect the
moderator and Aaron said to quit this, so I apologize for this last post
and that is it.  If anyone feels the need to drag this out--and I hope
not--then please do continue off-list.

Good night, and thank goodness it was a quiet day.

Don


Dave Guin wrote:
> 
> Read the whole post.  Focussing on one word exposes your prejudices, not
> the writer's.  The reference was to a specific faction from the past (I
> will admit there are some still active today), not about any current
> nationality or ethnicity.  No one was "condemn(ing) the children for the
> sins of the fathers."  To help illustrate the problems and complexities
> with this;  We much prefer to be called Native Americans (UNLESS your
> talking to my grandfather OR my children.  Then Indians is acceptable).
> 
> Peace,
> dave

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 20:56:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 11 19:56:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
Message-ID: <20020911.215411.-205865.9.haroldh3@juno.com>

Cosmetics in the Ancient World

Yes, as many of you noted, many minerals were, and are still used, in
cosmetics.  Some of the cosmetics in ancient times actually started out
being used to protect the eyes from the sun's glare and from flies. 
Kohl, a black paint made from a paste of soot, antimony, or galena was
used for the lashes, eyelids and eyebrows.  Ground malachite as a green
paste under the eyes, has been used in some African cultures to protect
form flies, I believe.

Scents and unguents were probably first used by the Egyptians in
mummification rites.

In the Mediterranean area, the upper classes of both sexes used
lipsticks, bath oils, rouges, also whiting powders and abrasives for
cleaning the teeth.  

The basis for all manner of concoctions came from almond, olive and
sesame oils, also thyme, oregano, frankincense and myrrh, spikenard,
saffron and rosewater, and were eventually used throughout the world.

Scarlet henna, a reddish-orange dye from the leaves of a certain shrub,
was used to dye the hair, on fingernails, toenails, palms of the hands
and soles of the feet.  Cochineal is a red dye prepared from the dried
bodies of the female scale insect which lives on certain cacti in warm
regions was also used for lipstick.

Vermilion is a color produced by powdering cinnabar, and used to make
paint in ancient times.  They would paint their house red to give the
impression of being expensively built.  I wander what happened of the
house burned down and the owner inhaled the mercury vapors: not good!

Lead water pipes were used by the Romans in their elaborate plumbing
systems, also in lead-lined pots, dishes and drinking vessels, also lead
in cosmetics and paint.  It has been suggested that lead contributed to
the decline of the Roman Empire.  Whether lead poisoning caused illness
and death or not, it could have caused a lower birth rate, or mental
deficiencies such as retardation.  The Romans certainly could have
absorbed enough lead to poison themselves.

Interesting!!
Harold Helmuth

'Rocks of the Bible, 
their meanings and uses
in ancient times'

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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:05:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:05:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:fineness chart
References: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com> <3D7FF940.82D2273B@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D800478.F2B07F4F@att.net>

Sorry, I don't, but I might suggest some things.  I presume you are
referring to standard karat grades--10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24?  (I'm
not sure 12 or 16 are common or even used, but I have seen the others,
and in certain countries anything less than 18K is considered junk). 
There are two problems you might encounter when considering such a
system: the alloys used to fill out the gold and the difficulty of
consistently reproducing colors.  Let us begin:

1.  Gold can be alloyed with a number of other metals and in different
proportions, and hence you see "red gold", "white gold", and yellow
gold.  As far as telling them apart, when I lived in Riyadh I saw a lot
of 18K and 21K gold, and I learned to discern them quickly.  Personally
I think 21K looks too yellow and I like the richer tones of 18K with a
little copper in it, but that's neither here nor there at the moment. 
The point is that it can all look different, and if the common metals in
the gold have begun to tarnish, you would need to polish the piece first
to get the fresh color to show anyway.

2.  I am working on a fluorescent color standard model, and boy is it a
nasty chore.  Color standards from companies like Pantone are hideously
expensive.  It is difficult for a company to consistently and perfectly
reproduce the same mix of hue, saturation, and brightness over and over
again, and even more difficult to keep the dyes and paper from fading or
changing especially when exposed to light.  I bought a cheap Roscolux
color set with which to experiment, and the label recommends the user
replace the set every two years.  Wow!  In polarized light microscopy,
we use something called a Michel-Levy chart.  Not only have I never seen
two such charts printed on paper that look exactly alike, what makes
this even more abominable is that the colors run in a continuous graded
spectrum, and the color sets essentially repeat in what are called
"orders," with the "rainbow" in each increasing order being slightly
less saturated and a bit brighter (simplified for the public,
petrographers please don't flame that I left out a lot).  I remember
learning to do this, looking through my scope, then at the chart, then
back through the scope, then at the chart . . . so my instructor said,
"did you determine the wavelength of retardation?" to which I replied,
"there is *no* wavelength I'm seeing through the wedge that matches
what's printed on this paper."  He chuckled and said it was a matter of
learning to use judgement, that I should be able to estimate within 20
nm and that would be fine.  Now, when it comes to color precision, 20 nm
might as well be the Grand Canyon.  Give me a spectrophotometer
please--but my point is that  
matching color standards visually is difficult and subjective.

Might I suggest obtaining known samples of all the major types of karat
gold, including different alloys?  That way comparison should be
easier.  Have you also considered buying a karat testing kit?  I know
you can buy one at www.riogrande.com (you may need to be an established
business to buy from them), or other places too.

Let me know what you think and if this has been any help.


Lawrence Dee wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where I can obtain a color chart showing finenesses in
> gold.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:22:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:22:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
Message-ID: <20020911.232047.-766631.0.grubsnorb@juno.com>

This is the most funniest hilarious thing I've heard in a long time....
at least regarding rocks that is. Thank you for your cleverness.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:15:59 EDT Bozo5@aol.com writes:
> Wouldn't it be funny if there were plentiful quartz there?
> 
> You might collect a gallon of Pint's quartz.
> 
> Flint
> 
> > Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens 
> labeled from 
> >  Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry, 
> Waterloo, 
> Black 
> > 
> >  Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.
> >  
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:24:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave Guin)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:24:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Himalaya Weirdness
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net> <3D7FF533.1010207@earthlink.net> <3D7FFD16.15C5D9C7@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D8008C4.9030805@earthlink.net>

Hey Ed!

I thought you were going to be gone by this afternoon.  I slept through 
the middle of the day (Better living through pharmaceuticals) so I 
didn't call.   Are you hanging out at home this evening?

I found another few "weird" specimens on my last, "ill fated" trip to 
the Himalaya. First, I found a couple of more small amethyst points. 
 Second, I found a piece that, at first glance, appeared to be smoky 
quartz, but when I held it up to the light, it shows a slightly green 
"cap" section (no striations, one smooth "face").  Finally, I found a 
piece that is dark (almost black) matrix with a green material on one 
end and in a couple of small spots within the matrix. The green material 
has the look of green corundum or maybe chrysophrase.  If I could walk, 
I'd go out to the workshop to do a scratch test on it.

 The deeper we go, the weirder the finds.  The "opal like" specimen we 
found last time we were both there, also has a black matrix.  Still, 
nothing as cool as my finished turquoise cab though! ;)

Peace,
dave



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:26:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:26:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:fineness chart
References: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com> <3D7FF940.82D2273B@mindspring.com> <3D800478.F2B07F4F@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D800913.46BD@Tomaszewski.net>

http://www.showcasegems.com/gemology101links/gold.html (found with a
search) had some very interesting details you might what to check out.




Don H wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I don't, but I might suggest some things.  I presume you are
> referring to standard karat grades--10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 24?  (I'm
> not sure 12 or 16 are common or even used, but I have seen the others,
> and in certain countries anything less than 18K is considered junk).
> There are two problems you might encounter when considering such a
> system: the alloys used to fill out the gold and the difficulty of
> consistently reproducing colors.  Let us begin:
> 
> 1.  Gold can be alloyed with a number of other metals and in different
> proportions, and hence you see "red gold", "white gold", and yellow
> gold.  As far as telling them apart, when I lived in Riyadh I saw a lot
> of 18K and 21K gold, and I learned to discern them quickly.  Personally
> I think 21K looks too yellow and I like the richer tones of 18K with a
> little copper in it, but that's neither here nor there at the moment.
> The point is that it can all look different, and if the common metals in
> the gold have begun to tarnish, you would need to polish the piece first
> to get the fresh color to show anyway.
> 
> 2.  I am working on a fluorescent color standard model, and boy is it a
> nasty chore.  Color standards from companies like Pantone are hideously
> expensive.  It is difficult for a company to consistently and perfectly
> reproduce the same mix of hue, saturation, and brightness over and over
> again, and even more difficult to keep the dyes and paper from fading or
> changing especially when exposed to light.  I bought a cheap Roscolux
> color set with which to experiment, and the label recommends the user
> replace the set every two years.  Wow!  In polarized light microscopy,
> we use something called a Michel-Levy chart.  Not only have I never seen
> two such charts printed on paper that look exactly alike, what makes
> this even more abominable is that the colors run in a continuous graded
> spectrum, and the color sets essentially repeat in what are called
> "orders," with the "rainbow" in each increasing order being slightly
> less saturated and a bit brighter (simplified for the public,
> petrographers please don't flame that I left out a lot).  I remember
> learning to do this, looking through my scope, then at the chart, then
> back through the scope, then at the chart . . . so my instructor said,
> "did you determine the wavelength of retardation?" to which I replied,
> "there is *no* wavelength I'm seeing through the wedge that matches
> what's printed on this paper."  He chuckled and said it was a matter of
> learning to use judgement, that I should be able to estimate within 20
> nm and that would be fine.  Now, when it comes to color precision, 20 nm
> might as well be the Grand Canyon.  Give me a spectrophotometer
> please--but my point is that
> matching color standards visually is difficult and subjective.
> 
> Might I suggest obtaining known samples of all the major types of karat
> gold, including different alloys?  That way comparison should be
> easier.  Have you also considered buying a karat testing kit?  I know
> you can buy one at www.riogrande.com (you may need to be an established
> business to buy from them), or other places too.
> 
> Let me know what you think and if this has been any help.
> 
> Lawrence Dee wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can obtain a color chart showing finenesses in
> > gold.
 http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:31:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave Guin)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:31:00 2002
Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com
References: 
Message-ID: <3D800A6E.6020607@earthlink.net>


Aaron Fox wrote:

>
>
>That being said, I remind everyone that one of the 'rules' for the list is 
>that you treat it like you were in a polite conversation.  Like at a large 
>family dinner, or your next club meeting.  In general, racial / religious 
>/ sexual epithets and personal attacks don't fit into dinner  conversations. 
>At my house, we wait at least until dessert, and often untill the beers 
>get cracked.
>
Obviously you've never been to one of my family's large dinners ;)  

One thing that has always worked though.  If I bring in a bucket of 
freshly sawed Mexican Coconuts, everybody shifts from the current topic 
into what I call the "Oohh, Aahh, and let me see" mode quickly.  Who can 
argue with a rock?  ( I have cussed a few, but never argued with one.)

Peace,
dave


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:35:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:35:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
References: <20020911.232047.-766631.0.grubsnorb@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3D800B3E.45DE@Tomaszewski.net>

grubsnorb@juno.com wrote:
> 
> This is the most funniest hilarious thing I've heard in a long time....
> at least regarding rocks that is. Thank you for your cleverness.

Let me help from the long time side...

Subject: 
         Rock Riddles
    Date: 
         Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:00:04 -0500
    From: 
         Larry Rush 
Reply-To: 
         rockhounds@infodyn.com
      To: 
         rockhounds@infodyn.com


Well, Gary Brown got me working on these today.....missed a days
productive
effort!! Thanks a lot, Gary!

(Answers on next page)

1. Bovine eats feldspar
2. Lawyers sue silica miner
3. Dr.Suess' miner in Death Valley
4. Strong sun in the Arctic
5. Turner finds rosy sandstone deposits
6. The San Andreas stops moving
7. Very sudden loss of soil
8. Helicopter to transport CU
9. Geometrically formed mineral in the shape of a hand-gun
10. Idiot who loves Isometric minerals
11. Shakespeare's petroleum comedy
12. Casino on a geologic fault
13. Person who doesn't believe in volcanoes
14. Very, very hot coffee
15. Geologist who can't stop talking shop
16. Group of shiny crystals
17. Vivacious agate
18. Volcanic tax form entry
19. Rutilated quartz that really isn't
20. Climber after fossil resin
21. Senor finds ore in meadow
22. Blind, underground anthracite miner
23. Rock-hammer marks on actor Tom's fingers
24. A well behaved reef inhabitant
25. Over-dressed dame who likes small quartz Xls
26. The effect of Darwin's theories
27. The only eruption in town
28. Silica army posts
29. Tie up your Aussie gems
30. Be lonely for a rock fracture
31. Spy some dense grey silica
32. Hollow rock ball made by GM
33. Hot spring at a pharmaceutical company
34. Marker for the Sweet Home entrance
35. We got rid of the nugget!
36. Mixed up metamorphic limestone
37. Salt observed in the day-time
38. Argentina gemstone
39. Mica deposit nears surface
40. Cartoon ghost likes semi-precious gem
41. Rona's diamond
42. Machine used to shape limestone
43. Volcanic glass disappears
44. Courthouse date for claim jumping
45. Muffin maker's claim gives indigestion
46. Deer runs into open pit mine
47. Annual celebration for brick makers
48. Strike-slip fault moves a bit
49. A pebble in my argyles
50. Tysons igneous intrusion
51. Wind which blows fissile rock around
52. Chamberlain's deposit
53. Dish made of sedimentary rock
54. Area around the top of a volcano
55. Rocks identical images
56. Unforgettable dinosaur
57. Cost of banded metamorphic rock

==================================================================
Answers:

1. cow bites albites
2. quartz torts
3. a borax lorax
4. glacier erasure
5. Ted's red beds
6. fault's halt
7. an erosion explosion
8. copper chopper
9. crystal pistol
10. cube boob
11. oil's well that ends well
12. a dip-joint clip-joint
13. igneous ignoramus
14. lava java
15. an ore bore
16. cluster luster
17. chert flirt
18. an eruption deduction
19. inclusion illusion
20. amber clamber
21. Spain plain vein
22. coal mole
23. Cruises' bruises
24. moral coral
25. a drusy floozie
26. evolution revolution
27. an exclusive extrusive
28. quartz forts
29. rope all opal
30. miss your fissure
31. flint glint
32. Geo geode
33. Pfizer geyser
34. fine mine sign
35. sold gold
36. garbled marble
37. daylight halite
38. La Paz topaz
39. a rising mass of isinglass
40. Casper's jasper
41. Barrett's carats
42. a limestone grindstone
43. obsidian oblivion
44. rock pocket docket
45. Thomas' pumices
46. quarry quarry
47. clay day
48. rift shift
49. sock rock
50. Mike's dike
51. shale gale
52. Wilt The Stilt's silt
53. slate plate
54. cone zone
55. stones clones
56. Jurassic classic
57. gneiss price

Good collecting.......Larry Rush
-- 

Larry Rush
Guilford, CT
lrush@cshore.com

"Noel Coward thought work was more fun than play,
 but he never, ever worked in the mines"



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> 
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:15:59 EDT Bozo5@aol.com writes:
> > Wouldn't it be funny if there were plentiful quartz there?
> >
> > You might collect a gallon of Pint's quartz.
> >
> > Flint
> >
> > > Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens
> > labeled from
> > >  Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry,
> > Waterloo,
> > Black
> > >
> > >  Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.
> > >

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 11 21:39:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Wed Sep 11 20:39:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:fineness chart
References: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com> <3D7FF940.82D2273B@mindspring.com> <3D800478.F2B07F4F@att.net> <3D800913.46BD@Tomaszewski.net>
Message-ID: <3D800C74.5CCED79C@att.net>

Most excellent!  The best part is that somebody didn't double-check the
spell-checker; I wonder what "karate gold" does to you if you make it
mad.

OK now I really need to go to bed.  

10K Don


Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote:
> 
> http://www.showcasegems.com/gemology101links/gold.html (found with a
> search) had some very interesting details you might what to check out.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 02:46:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Thu Sep 12 01:46:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas   dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c25a39$b8fe3b60$e99d77d5@pandora.be>

| Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.  Yeah,
Herr
| schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important stuff.
They
| were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.  Doubt if
they
| ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.

Perhaps because they saw themselves as "correctors" rather than
collectors...
"you vill tsjchange you deegenerate non-arian vays or ve vill kill you"
;-))))
Seem like something out of a bad-taste B-movie but I recall my father's and
grandfather's stories about the not-su-funny guys in the black leather
coats.

| Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are a
shifty
| lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of letting
them
| off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
learned
| their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a select
few who
| are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs, and
such.
| Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.  Need
I
| say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from those
| types.

Oh, but we have our share of those too! They are called "Vlaams Blok", a
political party that has similar idea's (cloacked with modern political
correctness) is the Nazis did. They alway win the elections but nobody wants
them in the government. So the other parties reconcile their political
defferences to form a majority against them. If they wouldn't, we would be a
"mini-third Reich" in no time.
I've been in Germany more than once and nothing indicates that those
friendly people would ever want to conquer us... Provided they are fed
properly. It's usually the nationalistic feeling that set a people ready for
war. It's ALWAYS the leaders... They blow all that nationalistic propaganda
in your left ear while out of your right ear comes running all that's good:
compassion, tolerance, decency, respect for life... Killing in the name of a
god or doing the same for a Kahn, Furher, Emperor or president or a piece of
land ...

|Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can get to
| things like that.
|
| How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?

I estimate 216Km high and 273 km wide... roughly.

| The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains are
large
| enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I have
been
| in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
| interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
pockets,
| some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
places.
| Not too vuggy,but often enough.

Oh, nothing that fancy.... but as I said, if its not fluorescent I really
dont go into it...

|I was good friends with the geologist there.
| He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come to
think
| of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
geologist
| and good collector. Has a great eye.

With a name like that you are either German or you come from another planet.
;-)

Cheers



| Axel Emmermann wrote:
|
| > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff worth
| > collecting.
| > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
half
| > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
| > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
localities...
| > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing calcite
| > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
| > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
seems
| > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
some
| > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy confirms it
but
| > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
| > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
| > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
| > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles on a
| > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
| > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
| >
| > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
Smal
| > but nice epidote is found there.
| >
| > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel in
| > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
| >
| > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
| >
| > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps of
the
| > old coalmines.
| >
| > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
colors
| > on one specimen.
| >
| > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector: Sclaigneaux.
| > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
| > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
| > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
| >
| > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM on
the
| > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy" for
the
| > pics)
| >
| > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
| >
| > See you tomorrow
| >
| > Axel
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
| > dinosaur's footpr int
| >
| > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it
a
| > few
| > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
| > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat,
| > similar
| > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
France,you
| > get
| > | near to the Saar, don't you?
| > |
| > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo
| > materials
| > | you find.
| > |
| > | Walt
| > |
| > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
| > |
| > | > Hello Horst
| > | >
| > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
| > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
| > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
| > much.
| > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
| > | >
| > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
| > mineram
| > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
| > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
| > | >
| > | > Best
| > | >
| > | > Axel Emmermann
| > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
| > | >             Belgium
| > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > | > E-mail:
| > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > | > Visit our homepage:
| > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > | > My own web-site:
| > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
| > | > To: 
| > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
| > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| > Texas
| > | > dinosaur's footpr int
| > | >
| > | > | Hi group,
| > | > |
| > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I
was
| > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment
was
| > to
| > | > give
| > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
South
| > West
| > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
| > square
| > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
| > about 1
| > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction -
the
| > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
| > | > |
| > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
| > piece of
| > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap
Dam
| > is
| > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
depression
| > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat
one
| > day,
| > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
| > | > |
| > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
| > Canyon
| > | > (a
| > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack
and
| > | > takiing
| > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
Rockhunt
| > | > Tour"
| > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
visiting
| > 22
| > | > | mines and collecting sites.
| > | > |
| > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
Namibia
| > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
| > personally,
| > | > the
| > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild
life
| > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
| > | > |
| > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
| > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
| > | > | To: 
| > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
| > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
| > Texas
| > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living
on
| > | > 32.545
| > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
That's
| > 793
| > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
| > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
| > kingdom
| > | > we
| > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting
the
| > | > next
| > | > | > guy...
| > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
| > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
| > actually
| > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people
high
| > | > | between
| > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
| > NEAR)
| > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square
mile
| > in
| > | > | > Belgium???
| > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals
so
| > we're
| > | > on
| > | > | > topic).
| > | > | >
| > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
| > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
dewalquite
| > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
| > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
| > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
| > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
| > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
| > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
| > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
| > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
| > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
| > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
| > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
| > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
| > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
| > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
| > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Cheers Earl
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Axel Emmermann
| > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
| > | > | >             Belgium
| > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > | > | > E-mail:
| > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > | > | > Visit our homepage:
| > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > | > | > My own web-site:
| > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
| > | > | > To: 
| > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
| > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
| > | > Texas
| > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | >
| > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
| > | > | > | >|
| > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| > | > | > | >|
| > | > | > | >| Bob
| > | > | > | >
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering
that
| > | > | > "America"
| > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from
north
| > of
| > | > | > Hudson
| > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population
of
| > all
| > | > | those
| > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > |
_________________________________________________________________
| > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
| > | > | > |
| > | > | > | _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 06:29:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Thu Sep 12 05:29:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D808873.8A19245A@earthlink.net>

Mike

I, after haveing read it, realized that you, above all woould take offense.  I
thought of it after I sent it and regretted it, for I knew you would be
offended.  The last thing I wished to do was to offend you above all people.
Your response shows that my offhanded remark has mightily offended you.  If you
will note, the name Bowser is Kraut, German or what ever else You or anyone
wishes tocall me.  Not that I find it offensive.  I am Italian and German.
Lived with the Kraut and wop and Dago anf never got to the point where I found
them offensive. They were just names.
Mike, your pointing it outto me does not make you a Nazi, that is your feeling,
it makes you sensitive to my remark.  I did not think of you when I made the
remarks.

If you or any of your countrymen or country ladies are offended, I apologize.
I think if you had read it, at least as I intended it to be read, it would have
meant those who invaded the world, or are neo-nazis in this life time.

Mike, you may be offended, others may, but Pauli "Kraut" Bowser, my Uncle of 98
years wears his title proudly.  If you wish to discuss this off list, I will be
happy to do so. I have no intention of statring a flame war with you.  You have
done that before on other lists and I think I would not wish to waste my time
nor the lists.

Ignorance IS offensive.
Walt

Michael Schmidt wrote:

> it's your ignorance that is offensive, Walt.
>
> your facetious response to me serves only to prove that you truly don't
> understand that what you said could offend people.
>
> but, alas.....I am sure that my pointing that out to you makes me a nazi in
> your book.  Trying to keep you from doing your own thing and all......
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
> > Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > > hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
> > >
> > > I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than
> Chinese
> > > people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
> > >
> > > Make sense to you?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > >
> > > > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.
> Yeah,
> > > Herr
> > > > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important
> stuff.
> > > They
> > > > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.
> Doubt if
> > > they
> > > > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are
> a
> > > shifty
> > > > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of
> letting
> > > them
> > > > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
> > > learned
> > > > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a
> select
> > > few who
> > > > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs,
> and
> > > such.
> > > > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.
> Need
> > > I
> > > > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from
> those
> > > > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can
> get
> > > to
> > > > things like that.
> > > >
> > > > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> > > >
> > > > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains
> are
> > > large
> > > > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I
> have
> > > been
> > > > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> > > > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
> > > pockets,
> > > > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
> > > places.
> > > > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
> > > there.
> > > > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come
> to
> > > think
> > > > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
> > > geologist
> > > > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> > > >
> > > > Walt
> > > >
> > > > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff
> worth
> > > > > collecting.
> > > > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
> > > half
> > > > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> > > localities...
> > > > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing
> calcite
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
> > > seems
> > > > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
> > > some
> > > > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy
> confirms it
> > > but
> > > > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles
> on a
> > > > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > > > >
> > > > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
> > > Smal
> > > > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel
> in
> > > > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > > > >
> > > > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps
> of
> > > the
> > > > > old coalmines.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
> > > colors
> > > > > on one specimen.
> > > > >
> > > > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector:
> Sclaigneaux.
> > > > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > > > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM
> on
> > > the
> > > > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy"
> for
> > > the
> > > > > pics)
> > > > >
> > > > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > > > >
> > > > > See you tomorrow
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > >             Belgium
> > > > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > E-mail:
> > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > My own web-site:
> > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > > Texas
> > > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > >
> > > > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew
> over it
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the
> "Low
> > > > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather
> flat,
> > > > > similar
> > > > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
> > > France,you
> > > > > get
> > > > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type
> fo
> > > > > materials
> > > > > | you find.
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Walt
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > > |
> > > > > | > Hello Horst
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times
> as
> > > > > much.
> > > > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting
> the
> > > > > mineram
> > > > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Best
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > | >             Belgium
> > > > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > | > E-mail:
> > > > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > > > | > To: 
> > > > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > > > Texas
> > > > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > | Hi group,
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when
> I
> > > was
> > > > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One
> assignment
> > > was
> > > > > to
> > > > > | > give
> > > > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
> > > South
> > > > > West
> > > > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1
> million
> > > > > square
> > > > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million,
> thus
> > > > > about 1
> > > > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under
> correction -
> > > the
> > > > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine
> this
> > > > > piece of
> > > > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the
> Hardap
> > > Dam
> > > > > is
> > > > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
> > > depression
> > > > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and
> meat
> > > one
> > > > > day,
> > > > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish
> River
> > > > > Canyon
> > > > > | > (a
> > > > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my
> backpack
> > > and
> > > > > | > takiing
> > > > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
> > > Rockhunt
> > > > > | > Tour"
> > > > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
> > > visiting
> > > > > 22
> > > > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
> > > Namibia
> > > > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > > > > personally,
> > > > > | > the
> > > > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and
> wild
> > > life
> > > > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the
> world.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > > > | > | To: 
> > > > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> > > away
> > > > > Texas
> > > > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians
> living
> > > on
> > > > > | > 32.545
> > > > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
> > > That's
> > > > > 793
> > > > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our
> mighty
> > > > > kingdom
> > > > > | > we
> > > > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of
> hitting
> > > the
> > > > > | > next
> > > > > | > | > guy...
> > > > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply
> so
> > > > > actually
> > > > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4
> people
> > > high
> > > > > | > | between
> > > > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at
> least
> > > > > NEAR)
> > > > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per
> square
> > > mile
> > > > > in
> > > > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real
> minerals
> > > so
> > > > > we're
> > > > > | > on
> > > > > | > | > topic).
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> > > dewalquite
> > > > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > > > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > > > | > | > To: 
> > > > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
> chisels
> > > away
> > > > > | > Texas
> > > > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that,
> considering
> > > that
> > > > > | > | > "America"
> > > > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches
> from
> > > north
> > > > > of
> > > > > | > | > Hudson
> > > > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the
> population
> > > of
> > > > > all
> > > > > | > | those
> > > > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 06:37:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Thu Sep 12 05:37:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
Message-ID: <6a.25ea6606.2ab1e445@aol.com>

Did you notice the reply was from Flint?

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 06:41:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Thu Sep 12 05:41:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
 dinosaur's footprint
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D808B5B.81BF0F3D@earthlink.net>

Don, That may have been distasteful and was not meant to harm anyone here
and now.  Mike's goat was gotten and I knew he would be offended when I
punched the button.  did not mean to offend,
see my other letter.

I am not second generation, but am of German descent.

Walt

Don H wrote:

> Good Lord Walt, that was a bit disasteful; I found it quite offensive
> and I'm second generation here.  Every country has done vile things;
> please don't condemn the children for the sins of the fathers.  Before
> you cast the first stone, maybe you'd like to hear a story about people
> we call Indians . . .
>
> On today, of all days, please let's everyone drop this and move
> forward.  All these threads have been so much fun.
>
> Don
> _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 06:44:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Thu Sep 12 05:44:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Anybody been to Pints?
Message-ID: <33.2ce64dba.2ab1e5f3@aol.com>

Love the humor, but have to re-ask the question as I've noticed after a few 
off the point replies on the various lists, the original questions get buried.

Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa? Is the quarry in Raymond the 
same as the locality formerly given as Waterloo?

Best Regards, Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 06:48:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Thu Sep 12 05:48:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [OT] Kraut
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net> <3D7FF533.1010207@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D808D01.5EC9ACED@earthlink.net>

Dave:

You seemed to have caught what I meant. It was not my intent offend certain
groups, nor individuals.  I guess goats are gotten easily in the days of
PCness.  I Must apologize for the seemingly insensitive nature of what was
said, however, for those who felt offended.  Thanks for reading it in the
manner in which it was intended.

Come to think of it, My mom was born in Italy, so that makes me second
generation also.  I don't care, I am an American, damned proud of it and do
not HYPHENATE myself into any thing else.

Walt

Dave Guin wrote:

> Read the whole post.  Focussing on one word exposes your prejudices, not
> the writer's.  The reference was to a specific faction from the past (I
> will admit there are some still active today), not about any current
> nationality or ethnicity.  No one was "condemn(ing) the children for the
> sins of the fathers."  To help illustrate the problems and complexities
> with this;  We much prefer to be called Native Americans (UNLESS your
> talking to my grandfather OR my children.  Then Indians is acceptable).
>
> Peace,
> dave
>
> Don H wrote:
>
> >Good Lord Walt, that was a bit disasteful; I found it quite offensive
> >and I'm second generation here.  Every country has done vile things;
> >please don't condemn the children for the sins of the fathers.  Before
> >you cast the first stone, maybe you'd like to hear a story about people
> >we call Indians . . .
> >
> >On today, of all days, please let's everyone drop this and move
> >forward.  All these threads have been so much fun.
> >
> >Don
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 06:54:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Thu Sep 12 05:54:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [OT] Kraut
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE799.B2134A7@att.net> <3D7FF533.1010207@earthlink.net> <3D7FFD16.15C5D9C7@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D808E30.6E54F8D7@earthlink.net>

Don

You bring out a good point.  Not all of our list members are Americans, or
citizens of the US, more correctly.  The explanation that I used, perhaps
fell upon unhearing ears because of the language differences between US and
other English.  There is a considerable difference.

Good point and I stand corrected.

My ignorance of the make up of this list may have caused some discomfort.  To
those people I extend my apologies and ask to be thought of as one who uses a
lot of erasers or the delete key often.

Wa;t





Don H wrote:

> That's why I said "we call Indians," implying that this is not what they
> call themselves.  Actually, many
> of the nations prefer to be called "First Nations" by us wasicun since
> being called anything American has nothing to do with their own origins
> and traditions.  Or, even better, would rather be called by their native
> names in their own languages, like Ikce Wicasa or Lenni Lenape or Dineh
> . . . and you thought I was just a nutty white guy.  I'm not politically
> correct by any means, but if Walt's post made me uncomfortable, then it
> did.  It also made me uncomfortable for our European list members, whose
> excellent command of English often makes us forget that they have
> different senses of humor and different sensibilities, and things they
> don't like to talk about even to this day--if you've ever lived there,
> then you know.  I wasn't making a big deal about it; just thought I'd
> mention it.
>
> I agree with your frequent signature, "Peace."  I also respect the
> moderator and Aaron said to quit this, so I apologize for this last post
> and that is it.  If anyone feels the need to drag this out--and I hope
> not--then please do continue off-list.
>
> Good night, and thank goodness it was a quiet day.
>
> Don
>
> Dave Guin wrote:
> >
> > Read the whole post.  Focussing on one word exposes your prejudices, not
> > the writer's.  The reference was to a specific faction from the past (I
> > will admit there are some still active today), not about any current
> > nationality or ethnicity.  No one was "condemn(ing) the children for the
> > sins of the fathers."  To help illustrate the problems and complexities
> > with this;  We much prefer to be called Native Americans (UNLESS your
> > talking to my grandfather OR my children.  Then Indians is acceptable).
> >
> > Peace,
> > dave
> _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 07:39:05 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Thu Sep 12 06:39:05 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas     dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7F8174.61189423@earthlink.net> <002201c259e1$920f8700$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <3D7FD764.1891ABDA@earthlink.net> <000701c259f1$6b8d2dc0$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D7FE197.B6013F55@earthlink.net> <002c01c259f5$eea75b00$66c494d1@dmschmidt> <3D808873.8A19245A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006001c25a61$c9595e40$0dcc94d1@dmschmidt>

Walt,

Aaron posted the following yesterday:

"Okay, once again, the thread stops now. Feel free to reply on topic, but
let's keep it there.  I don't want to read sixty more 'right-or-wrong'
posts."

What isn't clear to you about this statement???





----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 6:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
dinosaur's footpr int


> Mike
>
> I, after haveing read it, realized that you, above all woould take
offense.  I
> thought of it after I sent it and regretted it, for I knew you would be
> offended.  The last thing I wished to do was to offend you above all
people.
> Your response shows that my offhanded remark has mightily offended you.
If you
> will note, the name Bowser is Kraut, German or what ever else You or
anyone
> wishes tocall me.  Not that I find it offensive.  I am Italian and German.
> Lived with the Kraut and wop and Dago anf never got to the point where I
found
> them offensive. They were just names.
> Mike, your pointing it outto me does not make you a Nazi, that is your
feeling,
> it makes you sensitive to my remark.  I did not think of you when I made
the
> remarks.
>
> If you or any of your countrymen or country ladies are offended, I
apologize.
> I think if you had read it, at least as I intended it to be read, it would
have
> meant those who invaded the world, or are neo-nazis in this life time.
>
> Mike, you may be offended, others may, but Pauli "Kraut" Bowser, my Uncle
of 98
> years wears his title proudly.  If you wish to discuss this off list, I
will be
> happy to do so. I have no intention of statring a flame war with you.  You
have
> done that before on other lists and I think I would not wish to waste my
time
> nor the lists.
>
> Ignorance IS offensive.
> Walt
>
> Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> > it's your ignorance that is offensive, Walt.
> >
> > your facetious response to me serves only to prove that you truly don't
> > understand that what you said could offend people.
> >
> > but, alas.....I am sure that my pointing that out to you makes me a nazi
in
> > your book.  Trying to keep you from doing your own thing and all......
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
> > dinosaur's footpr int
> >
> > > Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> > >
> > > > hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
> > > >
> > > > I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than
> > Chinese
> > > > people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
> > > >
> > > > Make sense to you?
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > Texas
> > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > >
> > > > > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.
> > Yeah,
> > > > Herr
> > > > > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had
important
> > stuff.
> > > > They
> > > > > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.
> > Doubt if
> > > > they
> > > > > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They
are
> > a
> > > > shifty
> > > > > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of
> > letting
> > > > them
> > > > > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope
they
> > > > learned
> > > > > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a
> > select
> > > > few who
> > > > > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers,
dumkopfs,
> > and
> > > > such.
> > > > > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their
thing.
> > Need
> > > > I
> > > > > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from
> > those
> > > > > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you
can
> > get
> > > > to
> > > > > things like that.
> > > > >
> > > > > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> > > > >
> > > > > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the
grains
> > are
> > > > large
> > > > > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.
I
> > have
> > > > been
> > > > > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that
are
> > > > > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green,
in
> > > > pockets,
> > > > > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls
in
> > > > places.
> > > > > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the
geologist
> > > > there.
> > > > > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too,
come
> > to
> > > > think
> > > > > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was.
Good
> > > > geologist
> > > > > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some
stuff
> > worth
> > > > > > collecting.
> > > > > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the
southern
> > > > half
> > > > > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > > > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> > > > localities...
> > > > > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing
> > calcite
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry
there
> > > > seems
> > > > > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's
still
> > > > some
> > > > > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy
> > confirms it
> > > > but
> > > > > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > > > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > > > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite
needles
> > on a
> > > > > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for
porphyry.
> > > > Smal
> > > > > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a
channel
> > in
> > > > > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the
dumps
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > old coalmines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes
both
> > > > colors
> > > > > > on one specimen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector:
> > Sclaigneaux.
> > > > > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > > > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered
with
> > > > > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a
CD-ROM
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose
"mineralogy"
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > pics)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See you tomorrow
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Axel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > >             Belgium
> > > > > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > > E-mail:
> > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > > My own web-site:
> > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > > > To: 
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
> > > > Texas
> > > > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > >
> > > > > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew
> > over it
> > > > a
> > > > > > few
> > > > > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of
the
> > "Low
> > > > > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and
rather
> > flat,
> > > > > > similar
> > > > > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands
with
> > > > France,you
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and
type
> > fo
> > > > > > materials
> > > > > > | you find.
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | Walt
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | > Hello Horst
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > > > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > > > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87
times
> > as
> > > > > > much.
> > > > > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia
collecting
> > the
> > > > > > mineram
> > > > > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > > > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > Best
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > > | >             Belgium
> > > > > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > > | > E-mail:
> > > > > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > > > > | > To: 
> > > > > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > > > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
chisels
> > away
> > > > > > Texas
> > > > > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > | Hi group,
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time,
when
> > I
> > > > was
> > > > > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One
> > assignment
> > > > was
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > | > give
> > > > > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I
chose
> > > > South
> > > > > > West
> > > > > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1
> > million
> > > > > > square
> > > > > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1
million,
> > thus
> > > > > > about 1
> > > > > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under
> > correction -
> > > > the
> > > > > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well
imagine
> > this
> > > > > > piece of
> > > > > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the
> > Hardap
> > > > Dam
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during
the
> > > > depression
> > > > > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn
and
> > meat
> > > > one
> > > > > > day,
> > > > > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the
Fish
> > River
> > > > > > Canyon
> > > > > > | > (a
> > > > > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my
> > backpack
> > > > and
> > > > > > | > takiing
> > > > > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth
"Extended
> > > > Rockhunt
> > > > > > | > Tour"
> > > > > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12
vehicles),
> > > > visiting
> > > > > > 22
> > > > > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book
on
> > > > Namibia
> > > > > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for
me
> > > > > > personally,
> > > > > > | > the
> > > > > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic
and
> > wild
> > > > life
> > > > > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the
> > world.
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > > > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > > > > | > | To: 
> > > > > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > > > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
chisels
> > > > away
> > > > > > Texas
> > > > > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians
> > living
> > > > on
> > > > > > | > 32.545
> > > > > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly
calculated).
> > > > That's
> > > > > > 793
> > > > > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > > > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our
> > mighty
> > > > > > kingdom
> > > > > > | > we
> > > > > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of
> > hitting
> > > > the
> > > > > > | > next
> > > > > > | > | > guy...
> > > > > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > > > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous
beer-supply
> > so
> > > > > > actually
> > > > > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4
> > people
> > > > high
> > > > > > | > | between
> > > > > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or
at
> > least
> > > > > > NEAR)
> > > > > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per
> > square
> > > > mile
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > > > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real
> > minerals
> > > > so
> > > > > > we're
> > > > > > | > on
> > > > > > | > | > topic).
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > > > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> > > > dewalquite
> > > > > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > > > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > > > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym :
destinezite
> > > > > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > > > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > > > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > > > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > > > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > > > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > > > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > > > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > > > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > > > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > > > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > > > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > > > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > > > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > > > > | > | > To: 
> > > > > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > > > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
> > chisels
> > > > away
> > > > > > | > Texas
> > > > > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.
:-)
> > > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that,
> > considering
> > > > that
> > > > > > | > | > "America"
> > > > > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but
stretches
> > from
> > > > north
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > | > | > Hudson
> > > > > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the
> > population
> > > > of
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > | > | those
> > > > > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN
Hotmail.
> > > > > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > > > | > | > |
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 10:02:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Thu Sep 12 09:02:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas dinosaur's footpr int
References:  <00d201c258d8$d0505120$5a9c77d5@pandora.be> <001601c2597f$4e0a1f00$a94027c4@horstspc> <00e201c25999$f00dcda0$c2aa77d5@pandora.be> <001a01c259c7$dacfa340$a44027c4@horstspc>
Message-ID: <001a01c25a76$9dd94d60$98aa77d5@pandora.be>

Hi Horst

| Got your message,. but you have used the wrong figures; I said Namibia was
1
| 100 00 sq km. South Africa is still more than that (figure not readily
| available at moment( and here 61 type locality minerals have been found.
| Namibia has 40 (from Tsumeb) plus a few others. (My literature is not
handy
| at the moment).

Don't worry we Belgians are broadminded in such matters... ;-)))))

| I would have liked to meet them especially Rik Dillen and Paul van Hee,
but
| I am somewhat limited in my traveling at the moment after my serious car
| accident on 1st June.

Ooops, not too seriously injured I hope?
I can hardly wait to see what they bring back...

Axel

|
| Kind regards,
| Horst  ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Axel Emmermann" 
| To: 
| Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:48 PM
| Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
| dinosaur's footpr int
|
|
| > Hello Horst
| >
| > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
| > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
| > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
much.
| > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
| >
| > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
mineram
| > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
| > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
| >
| > Best
| >
| > Axel Emmermann
| > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| >             B-2640 Mortsel
| >             Belgium
| > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > E-mail:
| > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > Visit our homepage:
| > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > My own web-site:
| > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "horstwindisch" 
| > To: 
| > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
| > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
| > dinosaur's footpr int
| >
| >
| > | Hi group,
| > |
| > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I was
| > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment was
to
| > give
| > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose South
| West
| > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
square
| > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
about
| 1
| > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction - the
| > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
| > |
| > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
piece
| of
| > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap Dam
is
| > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the depression
| > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat one
| day,
| > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
| > |
| > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
| Canyon
| > (a
| > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack and
| > takiing
| > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended Rockhunt
| > Tour"
| > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles), visiting
| 22
| > | mines and collecting sites.
| > |
| > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on Namibia
| > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
personally,
| > the
| > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild life
| > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
| > |
| > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
| > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
| > | To: 
| > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
| > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| Texas
| > | dinosaur's footpr int
| > |
| > |
| > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living on
| > 32.545
| > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated). That's
793
| > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
| > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
| kingdom
| > we
| > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting the
| > next
| > | > guy...
| > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
| > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
| actually
| > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people high
| > | between
| > | > the piles of beer barrels.
| > | >
| > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
NEAR)
| > | > topic... maybe this will do:
| > | >
| > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square mile
in
| > | > Belgium???
| > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals so
| we're
| > on
| > | > topic).
| > | >
| > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
| > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym : dewalquite
| > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
| > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
| > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
| > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
| > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
| > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
| > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
| > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
| > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
| > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
| > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
| > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
| > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
| > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
| > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
| > | >
| > | > Cheers Earl
| > | >
| > | > Axel Emmermann
| > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
| > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
| > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
| > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
| > | >             Belgium
| > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
| > | > E-mail:
| > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
| > | > Visit our homepage:
| > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
| > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
| > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
| > | > My own web-site:
| > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
| > | > To: 
| > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
| > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
| > Texas
| > | > dinosaur's footpr int
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > | >
| > | > | >| Hey Axel,
| > | > | >|
| > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
| > | > | >|
| > | > | >| Bob
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering that
| > | > "America"
| > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from north
| of
| > | > Hudson
| > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population of
all
| > | those
| > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
| > | > |
| > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
| > | > |
| > | > | _________________________________________________________________
| > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
| > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
| > | > |
| > | > | _______________________________________________
| > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > | > | Subscription Services:
| > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
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| > | >
| > |
| > |
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| > |
| > |
| >
| >
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| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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| >
| >
|
|
| _______________________________________________
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|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 10:26:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (artweinle)
Date: Thu Sep 12 09:26:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] What do you believe about rocks?
In-Reply-To: <018001c255ca$f2259820$3150fea9@win98>
Message-ID: 

Stuart:

Thankyou very much.  I'm sure that these will be appreciated by the students
I give them to!!  [Got the shipment several days ago -- pretty fast!!]

Art
artweinle@comcast.net
======================

on 9/6/02 1:29 PM, Stuart Schmitt at sos@ipa.net wrote:

> Hi Art,
> Thanks for your input.  I believe I would like to donate some crystals to
> you for your science class to explore.  Please send me your address off line
> and let me know how many students might need a crystal.
> 
> With appreciation & gratitude,
> Stuart Schmitt
> Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine
> www.arcrystalmine.com
> 60 Mary's Eagle Trail
> Mount Ida, AR 71957
> (870) 867-2443
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 11:44:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Flannigan)
Date: Thu Sep 12 10:44:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Too Many Replies
References: <20020912010001.5893.98019.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <3D80D214.EDA404AC@earthlink.net>

Would you guys mind cutting off some of the old replies on
these e-mails?  Just a suggestion.


Mike Flannigan


> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
> > Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > > hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
> > >
> > > I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than
> Chinese
> > > people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
> > >
> > > Make sense to you?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > >
> > > > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.
> Yeah,
> > > Herr
> > > > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important
> stuff.
> > > They
> > > > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.
> Doubt if
> > > they
> > > > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are
> a
> > > shifty
> > > > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of
> letting
> > > them
> > > > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
> > > learned
> > > > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a
> select
> > > few who
> > > > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs,
> and
> > > such.
> > > > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.
> Need
> > > I
> > > > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from
> those
> > > > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can
> get
> > > to
> > > > things like that.
> > > >
> > > > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> > > >
> > > > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains
> are
> > > large
> > > > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I
> have
> > > been
> > > > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> > > > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
> > > pockets,
> > > > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
> > > places.
> > > > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
> > > there.
> > > > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come
> to
> > > think
> > > > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
> > > geologist
> > > > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> > > >
> > > > Walt
> > > >
> > > > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff
> worth
> > > > > collecting.
> > > > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
> > > half
> > > > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> > > localities...
> > > > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing
> calcite
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
> > > seems
> > > > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
> > > some
> > > > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy
> confirms it
> > > but
> > > > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles
> on a
> > > > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > > > >
> > > > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
> > > Smal
> > > > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel
> in
> > > > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > > > >
> > > > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps
> of
> > > the
> > > > > old coalmines.
> > > > >
> > > > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
> > > colors
> > > > > on one specimen.
> > > > >
> > > > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector:
> Sclaigneaux.
> > > > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > > > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM
> on
> > > the
> > > > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy"
> for
> > > the
> > > > > pics)
> > > > >
> > > > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > > > >
> > > > > See you tomorrow
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > >             Belgium
> > > > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > E-mail:
> > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > My own web-site:
> > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > > Texas
> > > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > >
> > > > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew
> over it
> > > a
> > > > > few
> > > > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the
> "Low
> > > > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather
> flat,
> > > > > similar
> > > > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
> > > France,you
> > > > > get
> > > > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type
> fo
> > > > > materials
> > > > > | you find.
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Walt
> > > > > |
> > > > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > > |
> > > > > | > Hello Horst
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times
> as
> > > > > much.
> > > > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting
> the
> > > > > mineram
> > > > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Best
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > | >             Belgium
> > > > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > | > E-mail:
> > > > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > > > | > To: 
> > > > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > > > Texas
> > > > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | >
> > > > > | > | Hi group,
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when
> I
> > > was
> > > > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One
> assignment
> > > was
> > > > > to
> > > > > | > give
> > > > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
> > > South
> > > > > West
> > > > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1
> million
> > > > > square
> > > > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million,
> thus
> > > > > about 1
> > > > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under
> correction -
> > > the
> > > > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine
> this
> > > > > piece of
> > > > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the
> Hardap
> > > Dam
> > > > > is
> > > > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
> > > depression
> > > > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and
> meat
> > > one
> > > > > day,
> > > > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish
> River
> > > > > Canyon
> > > > > | > (a
> > > > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my
> backpack
> > > and
> > > > > | > takiing
> > > > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
> > > Rockhunt
> > > > > | > Tour"
> > > > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
> > > visiting
> > > > > 22
> > > > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
> > > Namibia
> > > > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > > > > personally,
> > > > > | > the
> > > > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and
> wild
> > > life
> > > > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the
> world.
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > > > | > | To: 
> > > > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> > > away
> > > > > Texas
> > > > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians
> living
> > > on
> > > > > | > 32.545
> > > > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
> > > That's
> > > > > 793
> > > > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our
> mighty
> > > > > kingdom
> > > > > | > we
> > > > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of
> hitting
> > > the
> > > > > | > next
> > > > > | > | > guy...
> > > > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply
> so
> > > > > actually
> > > > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4
> people
> > > high
> > > > > | > | between
> > > > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at
> least
> > > > > NEAR)
> > > > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per
> square
> > > mile
> > > > > in
> > > > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real
> minerals
> > > so
> > > > > we're
> > > > > | > on
> > > > > | > | > topic).
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> > > dewalquite
> > > > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > > > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > > > | > | > To: 
> > > > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
> chisels
> > > away
> > > > > | > Texas
> > > > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that,
> considering
> > > that
> > > > > | > | > "America"
> > > > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches
> from
> > > north
> > > > > of
> > > > > | > | > Hudson
> > > > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the
> population
> > > of
> > > > > all
> > > > > | > | those
> > > > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | > | _______________________________________________
> > > > > | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > | > | > | Subscription Services:
> > > > > | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | >
> > > > > | > | > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > | > |
> > > > > | > |
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> End of Rockhounds Digest


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 12:04:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Thu Sep 12 11:04:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Too Many Replies
References: <20020912010001.5893.98019.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <3D80D214.EDA404AC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D80D6FA.7F37D5F9@earthlink.net>

Mike

You are right, someof them seem to go on for ever.

Good idea, to cut down the amount of Junk that gets repeated.  I will do so every
time I think of it.   God, that must take up a jillion bits.  It must be
impossible to download with slower connections.

Thanks  for the  kind reminder.

Walt


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 12:10:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave Guin)
Date: Thu Sep 12 11:10:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [OT] Too Many Replies
References: <20020912010001.5893.98019.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <3D80D214.EDA404AC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D80D878.7070100@earthlink.net>


Mike Flannigan wrote:

>Would you guys mind cutting off some of the old replies on
>these e-mails?  Just a suggestion.
>

Here are some good guidelines.

>


http://www.iwillfollow.com/email.htm
http://www.webfoot.com/advice/email.context.html
http://email.about.com/library/weekly/aa072897.htm
http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/quote.html




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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 14:05:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Thu Sep 12 13:05:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: microscopes for sale
References: <109.181a2bb0.2aa8006b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D80F63E.AA1266B8@mindspring.com>

I have one of the Russian stereo microscopes sold at the Tucson show for
sale, also a boom binocular good for preping minerals or fossils.  If
interested give me a shout off line. LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 14:18:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans)
Date: Thu Sep 12 13:18:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] email address Jim McGlasson ?
References: <33.2ce64dba.2ab1e5f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0da501c25a98$e1262ee0$8b9d76d5@pandora.be>

Hi all,
just tried to send Jim McGlasson (Tucson, AZ) an email, but it bounced:
: unknown user: "jmcglasson"

Does anyone have another (more recent?) email address he can be contacted at
?
Thanks in advance,
Sincerely,  Herwig

Herwig Pelckmans
Worldwide Mineral Collector
Belgium  Europe
http://www.xlizd.com


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 15:38:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Thu Sep 12 14:38:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] oxalate experiment
In-Reply-To: <0da501c25a98$e1262ee0$8b9d76d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: 

I did some quick experiments the other night. I tried to produce a coating
on some rocks (some Lake Superior beach gravel I had in the back of my
truck) by soaking them in a high concentration of Calcium Oxalate for 4
hours. I only managed to produce a very thin white coating that could be
easily rubbed off with your finger. This was a supersaturated floc of
Calcium Oxalate too. A lot higher concentration than you would get from
using tap water with Oxalic acid.

I then tried oxidizing the calcium oxalate. Potassium Permanganate did a
great job of oxalate removal but as has bee mentioned it produces a adherent
brown manganese coating that doesn't rub off with your finger.

A 10% Hydrogen Peroxide solution produced no visible reaction, however the
peroxide was taken out of the fridge and was cold, heating might have
accelerated the reaction.

I also tried some Potassium Persulfate but it showed no obvious reaction. I
didn't have time to heat these up but maybe I can get to that in the next
week or so.

Bryan





From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 18:12:18 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jan & Candi)
Date: Thu Sep 12 17:12:18 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [OT] Too Many Replies
In-Reply-To: <3D80D878.7070100@earthlink.net>
References: <20020912010001.5893.98019.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com>
 <3D80D214.EDA404AC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20020912202022.026d9a50@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Thank you Dave.  I was beginning to think it was me being to fussy.  There 
is way to much junk mail and not enough rock talk.  Jandi


At 11:10 AM 9/12/2002 -0700, you wrote:


>Mike Flannigan wrote:
>
>>Would you guys mind cutting off some of the old replies on
>>these e-mails?  Just a suggestion.
>
>Here are some good guidelines.
>
>
>
>http://www.iwillfollow.com/email.htm
>http://www.webfoot.com/advice/email.context.html
>http://email.about.com/library/weekly/aa072897.htm
>http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/quote.html
>
>
>
>
>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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>  text/plain (text body -- kept)
>  text/html
>---
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 19:03:54 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford)
Date: Thu Sep 12 18:03:54 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912201907.00a549f0@mail.indy.net>


Hello List


I recently went to an auction and bought a small Lortone 3 pound 
tumbler.  It came with
various grits and polishes.  (for 10 bucks I thought it a deal)  The son of 
the man who used
it said it has not been used since the early 80's.  My question is are the 
polishing agents
still good?  I am sure the grits are fine to use but am not sure about the 
polish.

They are labeled Cerium,  Tin Oxide, Rayb ... something I cant make out the 
writing.
Also in a small plastic container is a white powder with no label that 
feels sort of like
corn starch. Any one have ideas what that might be?

Thanks

Robin


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 19:15:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Barbara and David Fenstermacher)
Date: Thu Sep 12 18:15:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>

Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning 
system to find their way to field trip locations.
Found this website for general info:
http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
but would like to hear from users.
Barb



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 19:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Thu Sep 12 18:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912201907.00a549f0@mail.indy.net>
Message-ID: <3D814254.2E85@Tomaszewski.net>

You got a good deal, but make sure you oil the bearings every couple
days the first week or so of use to clean them up and extend their life.

The polishes should still be good (I'm still using up some 20 year old
cerium oxide I bought in BULK). 

The unknown white powder may be pre-polish.



crawford wrote:
> 
> Hello List
> 
> I recently went to an auction and bought a small Lortone 3 pound
> tumbler.  It came with
> various grits and polishes.  (for 10 bucks I thought it a deal)  The son of
> the man who used
> it said it has not been used since the early 80's.  My question is are the
> polishing agents
> still good?  I am sure the grits are fine to use but am not sure about the
> polish.
> 
> They are labeled Cerium,  Tin Oxide, Rayb ... something I cant make out the
> writing.
> Also in a small plastic container is a white powder with no label that
> feels sort of like
> corn starch. Any one have ideas what that might be?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 19:53:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Thu Sep 12 18:53:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
Message-ID: <16.2539e96a.2ab29ef1@aol.com>

All of your powders should be stable as long as they have not been wet...And 
you willknow when that happens...they will all be chuncky...The Rayb is 
probably Raybostos akin to stabrite and it probably is corn starch if it is 
silky smooth but one never knows...People come up with there own concoctions 
at times...  

You did darn good for $10.00....Now let's see some pretty stones from ya, lol

For now and till then,
JOHN


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 20:18:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Thu Sep 12 19:18:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D814DAC.C1920F78@mindspring.com>

Barb, GPS is the only way to go and the only way locations should be
described is by lat/long or UTM if you prefer.  When you consider that
some xl and fossil locations are a spot that may only be a few square
feet GPS can certainly save a great deal of hunting around.  If you like
to research mines and the minerals they produced you can find many of
them by using the Bureau of Mines MasMils database [even though a great
many of their locations are erroneous].  The mines are listed by both
lat/long and utm.  If you are mapping your locations as I do with the
DeLorme topos, you just key in the lat/long on the map, print it out or
take your laptop with you, and set your gps to go to that location.
Word of warning - do not get an older unit as they are slow and
unreliable.  Buy a 12 channel unit or better.  Lots of websites about
GPS - more info than you would ever want to know, but the GPS
evaluations are worth reviewing! LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 20:36:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Thu Sep 12 19:36:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <003101c25ace$3bd9fda0$43c494d1@dmschmidt>

for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are sometimes
problems with acquiring satellites.

While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking my friend's
apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until I was in an
area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were making it
difficult for me to locate.

Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but you may also
run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or with
sufficient cloud cover.

There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic ones for a
little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+ that plan
driving routes and come with city maps of North America and Europe.

All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I myself have
tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in the Kem Kem
of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later when he was
there, based on my coordinates.

For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if you can
never remember where you parked!!!

:-).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding


> Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning
> system to find their way to field trip locations.
> Found this website for general info:
> http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> but would like to hear from users.
> Barb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 20:51:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford)
Date: Thu Sep 12 19:51:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
In-Reply-To: <3D814254.2E85@Tomaszewski.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912201907.00a549f0@mail.indy.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912221625.0337b0d0@mail.indy.net>

At 09:47 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>You got a good deal, but make sure you oil the bearings every couple
>days the first week or so of use to clean them up and extend their life.

Is WD40 ok for this?

>The polishes should still be good (I'm still using up some 20 year old
>cerium oxide I bought in BULK).
>
>The unknown white powder may be pre-polish.

Thanks for the reply

Robbie


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 20:52:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford)
Date: Thu Sep 12 19:52:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
In-Reply-To: <16.2539e96a.2ab29ef1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912221751.035215f0@mail.indy.net>

At 09:52 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>All of your powders should be stable as long as they have not been wet...And
>you willknow when that happens...they will all be chuncky...The Rayb is
>probably Raybostos akin to stabrite and it probably is corn starch if it is
>silky smooth but one never knows...People come up with there own concoctions
>at times...

And stabrite is used for?

>You did darn good for $10.00....Now let's see some pretty stones from ya, lol
>
>For now and till then,
>JOHN

I am new to this so sorry for all the questions

Thanks

Robbie


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 20:56:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Thu Sep 12 19:56:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
Message-ID: <14d.13e3756c.2ab2ad88@aol.com>

Stabrite was a trade name for a Polish. Questions are the only way to learn. 
Al;l of us started the same way. Some of us had to ask the same question more 
than once...

If I can be of any further assistance. . . . .you know where I am!

For now and till then,
JOHN


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 21:00:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Thu Sep 12 20:00:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
Message-ID: <153.13f2c767.2ab2ae76@aol.com>

Try Raybrite for the Rayb. It's a final polish sold by Raytech - was in the 
80's and still is. More important than have they gotten wet, etc. is have 
they gotten contaminated by anything else. As far as getting wet - who cares? 
It gets wet when you use it. Just so it isn't "old and moldy" - even then it 
works fine, it's just disgusting. I regularly buy grits and polishes that are 
from the 80's or earlier as part of collections. If I have doubts as to 
contamination, they go in the coarse grit or prepolish, as the case may be. 
Last year I used well over 100 lbs of loose grit that went through a fire 
complete with the fire department and hoses. It all went in to the 100 grit 
bucket. Most of it was anyway. Worked just fine and was free.

In a message dated 9/12/2002 9:04:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
fossil1@indy.net writes:


> Hello List
> 
> 
> I recently went to an auction and bought a small Lortone 3 pound 
> tumbler.  It came with
> various grits and polishes.  (for 10 bucks I thought it a deal)  The son of 
> 
> the man who used
> it said it has not been used since the early 80's.  My question is are the 
> polishing agents
> still good?  I am sure the grits are fine to use but am not sure about the 
> polish.
> 
> They are labeled Cerium,  Tin Oxide, Rayb ... something I cant make out the 
> 
> writing.
> Also in a small plastic container is a white powder with no label that 
> feels sort of like
> corn starch. Any one have ideas what that might be?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Robin
> 



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 21:19:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Thu Sep 12 20:19:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912201907.00a549f0@mail.indy.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020912221625.0337b0d0@mail.indy.net>
Message-ID: <3D815920.2AFB@Tomaszewski.net>

crawford wrote:
> 
> At 09:47 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
> >You got a good deal, but make sure you oil the bearings every couple
> >days the first week or so of use to clean them up and extend their life.
> 
> Is WD40 ok for this?

Or 3-in-one, or equivalent. You should *_ALWAYS_* have _some_ (clean)
lubricant in tumbler bearings to reduce wear, but something that has sat
for 15 years needs to be flushed clean before routine maintenence can
begin.

Kreigh

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 21:24:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Thu Sep 12 20:24:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D813ED4.F33F24AF@att.net>

Would you happen to be going to the micromounters symposium in Baltimore
this weekend?  I am giving a brief demo tomorrow night on coupling GPS
with topographic map programs.

What kind of feedback are you looking for?

Don


Barbara and David Fenstermacher wrote:
> 
> Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning
> system to find their way to field trip locations.
> Found this website for general info:
> http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> but would like to hear from users.
> Barb
>

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 21:30:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catspaw Minerals)
Date: Thu Sep 12 20:30:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: <003101c25ace$3bd9fda0$43c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: 

Yes, the MasMils is great for the GPS...if you take it with a grain of salt.
Sometimes with a rather large xtln mass!  We had a discussion here a couple
of months ago about the accuracy of the data in there.  The consensus was
that it varied pretty much on a state-to-state basis.  Some places sent data
into the USBM that was accurate down to a dime's width.  Other places, well,
other places had some of their mines sitting out in the ocean somewhere near
the Azores (if you want a real chuckle, do a FULL import of all the MasMils
data into the DeLorme world topo system...you get some interesting plots.)

"Ground Truth" - the correspondence between a map or listing of a location
and the "real" location is a constant worry in both GPS and mapping.  If you
look at everything as a tool and not as the gospel truth, it works out fine.
If you bet the farm on any single piece of hardware, or chunk of published
data, you are asking for trouble.


Gary Brown
http://www.catspaw-minerals.com
Supplier of MasMils/PLUS


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 21:52:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM)
Date: Thu Sep 12 20:52:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Idaho Panhandle National Forests
Message-ID: <3D81613C.74AF25F9@cox.net>

Earlier on there was a request to show a level of interest in keeping
these areas open to Rockhounding. Today I received the following.


> Ms. Masters,
>
> The Idaho Panhandle National Forests values public input on recreational
> activities and other forest interests.  I hope you enjoy your visit to our
> Garnet Digging area.
>
>
> Shirley M. Hooper
> Idaho Panhandle National Forests
> Information Receptionist
> 208-765-7226
> E-Mail:  smhooper@fs.fed.us
>
>
Teresa


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 12 23:53:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (a.m.robbemond)
Date: Thu Sep 12 22:53:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Too Many Replies
References: <20020912010001.5893.98019.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <3D80D214.EDA404AC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000801c25ae9$7d14f340$f22cfb3e@oemcomputer>

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Mike Flannigan" 
Aan: 
Verzonden: donderdag 12 september 2002 19:42
Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] Too Many Replies


>
> Would you guys mind cutting off some of the old replies on
> these e-mails?  Just a suggestion.
>
>
> Mike Flannigan
>
>
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
Texas
> > dinosaur's footpr int
> >
> > > Gee Michael, did I offend??? So very sorry.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> > >
> > > > hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
> > > >
> > > > I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than
> > Chinese
> > > > people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
> > > >
> > > > Make sense to you?
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > Texas
> > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > >
> > > > > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.
> > Yeah,
> > > > Herr
> > > > > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had
important
> > stuff.
> > > > They
> > > > > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.
> > Doubt if
> > > > they
> > > > > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They
are
> > a
> > > > shifty
> > > > > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of
> > letting
> > > > them
> > > > > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope
they
> > > > learned
> > > > > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a
> > select
> > > > few who
> > > > > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers,
dumkopfs,
> > and
> > > > such.
> > > > > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their
thing.
> > Need
> > > > I
> > > > > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from
> > those
> > > > > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you
can
> > get
> > > > to
> > > > > things like that.
> > > > >
> > > > > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> > > > >
> > > > > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the
grains
> > are
> > > > large
> > > > > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.
I
> > have
> > > > been
> > > > > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that
are
> > > > > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green,
in
> > > > pockets,
> > > > > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls
in
> > > > places.
> > > > > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the
geologist
> > > > there.
> > > > > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too,
come
> > to
> > > > think
> > > > > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was.
Good
> > > > geologist
> > > > > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt
> > > > >
> > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some
stuff
> > worth
> > > > > > collecting.
> > > > > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the
southern
> > > > half
> > > > > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > > > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> > > > localities...
> > > > > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing
> > calcite
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry
there
> > > > seems
> > > > > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's
still
> > > > some
> > > > > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy
> > confirms it
> > > > but
> > > > > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > > > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > > > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite
needles
> > on a
> > > > > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for
porphyry.
> > > > Smal
> > > > > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a
channel
> > in
> > > > > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the
dumps
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > old coalmines.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes
both
> > > > colors
> > > > > > on one specimen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector:
> > Sclaigneaux.
> > > > > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > > > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered
with
> > > > > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a
CD-ROM
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose
"mineralogy"
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > pics)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See you tomorrow
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Axel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > >             Belgium
> > > > > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > > E-mail:
> > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > > My own web-site:
> > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > > > > To: 
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
away
> > > > Texas
> > > > > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > >
> > > > > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew
> > over it
> > > > a
> > > > > > few
> > > > > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of
the
> > "Low
> > > > > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and
rather
> > flat,
> > > > > > similar
> > > > > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands
with
> > > > France,you
> > > > > > get
> > > > > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and
type
> > fo
> > > > > > materials
> > > > > > | you find.
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | Walt
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > > > > |
> > > > > > | > Hello Horst
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > > > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > > > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87
times
> > as
> > > > > > much.
> > > > > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia
collecting
> > the
> > > > > > mineram
> > > > > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > > > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > Best
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > > | >             Belgium
> > > > > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > > | > E-mail:
> > > > > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > > > > | > To: 
> > > > > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > > > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
chisels
> > away
> > > > > > Texas
> > > > > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > > | >
> > > > > > | > | Hi group,
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time,
when
> > I
> > > > was
> > > > > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One
> > assignment
> > > > was
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > | > give
> > > > > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I
chose
> > > > South
> > > > > > West
> > > > > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1
> > million
> > > > > > square
> > > > > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1
million,
> > thus
> > > > > > about 1
> > > > > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under
> > correction -
> > > > the
> > > > > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well
imagine
> > this
> > > > > > piece of
> > > > > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the
> > Hardap
> > > > Dam
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during
the
> > > > depression
> > > > > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn
and
> > meat
> > > > one
> > > > > > day,
> > > > > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the
Fish
> > River
> > > > > > Canyon
> > > > > > | > (a
> > > > > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my
> > backpack
> > > > and
> > > > > > | > takiing
> > > > > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth
"Extended
> > > > Rockhunt
> > > > > > | > Tour"
> > > > > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12
vehicles),
> > > > visiting
> > > > > > 22
> > > > > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book
on
> > > > Namibia
> > > > > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for
me
> > > > > > personally,
> > > > > > | > the
> > > > > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic
and
> > wild
> > > > life
> > > > > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the
> > world.
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > > > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > > > > | > | To: 
> > > > > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > > > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
chisels
> > > > away
> > > > > > Texas
> > > > > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians
> > living
> > > > on
> > > > > > | > 32.545
> > > > > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly
calculated).
> > > > That's
> > > > > > 793
> > > > > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > > > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our
> > mighty
> > > > > > kingdom
> > > > > > | > we
> > > > > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of
> > hitting
> > > > the
> > > > > > | > next
> > > > > > | > | > guy...
> > > > > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > > > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous
beer-supply
> > so
> > > > > > actually
> > > > > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4
> > people
> > > > high
> > > > > > | > | between
> > > > > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or
at
> > least
> > > > > > NEAR)
> > > > > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per
> > square
> > > > mile
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > > > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real
> > minerals
> > > > so
> > > > > > we're
> > > > > > | > on
> > > > > > | > | > topic).
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > > > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> > > > dewalquite
> > > > > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > > > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > > > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym :
destinezite
> > > > > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > > > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > > > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > > > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > > > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > > > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > > > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > > > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > > > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > > > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > > > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > > > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > > > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > > > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > > > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > > > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > > > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > > > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > > > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > > > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > > > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > > > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > > > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > > > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > > > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > > > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > > > > | > | > To: 
> > > > > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > > > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief
> > chisels
> > > > away
> > > > > > | > Texas
> > > > > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.
:-)
> > > > > > | > | > | >|
> > > > > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > > > > | > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that,
> > considering
> > > > that
> > > > > > | > | > "America"
> > > > > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but
stretches
> > from
> > > > north
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > | > | > Hudson
> > > > > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the
> > population
> > > > of
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > | > | those
> > > > > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN
Hotmail.
> > > > > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | > | _______________________________________________
> > > > > > | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > > | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > > | > | > | Subscription Services:
> > > > > > | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > > > | > | > |
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | >
> > > > > > | > | > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > > | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > |
> > > > > > | > | _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 04:33:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Fri Sep 13 03:33:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] oxalate experiment
References: 
Message-ID: <000e01c25b11$d86d2b40$30ab77d5@pandora.be>

| A 10% Hydrogen Peroxide solution produced no visible reaction, however the
| peroxide was taken out of the fridge and was cold, heating might have
| accelerated the reaction.

Try adding a weak base like ammonia. Peroxide is stable only in acidic
solution. A base will cause it to release oxygen.

Axel



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 06:52:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 05:52:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <003101c25ace$3bd9fda0$43c494d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D81DF38.D5064622@earthlink.net>

While most of us can remember where we parked the car and the route to the
store, the GPS is an extremely useful system in large cities like Mexico city
or Beijing.  I have used it in Mexico and found that it is lacking in certain
information.  It depends on the software used, the unit used, etc.  I had one
which was keyed to my laptop.  It lacked the information for parts of Mexico.
It was VERY good for the US but lacked Mexico.  When I up graded It was much
better.




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 06:57:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 05:57:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
Message-ID: <4fa701c25b25$44e3e9e0$e76897c2@hetnet.nl>

Hi

Does anybody know some good downloadable lists of mineral-locality coordinates? I can use them in my locality database, to link them to a map by GIS.

Cheers,
Maurice


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 08:01:04 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kowalski, Ted - Washington, DC)
Date: Fri Sep 13 07:01:04 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
Message-ID: <532959E93CBBF04C95B569B9EEABC5A932B38E@wadchqsxe01.usa.dce.usps.gov>

Robbie:
Ummm, yes and no. 

WD40 is terrific for short-term lubrication or getting lubrication into
a dry bearing. But, because the lubricant is volatile it doesn't last
long. A couple of days after soaking/rinsing the bearing with WD40,
rinse it again with WD40 and then use a more viscous longer lasting oil.
I use motor oil for easy to access large bearings; gun oil for the
smaller tighter ones. The small needle tipped gun oil applicators work
very well (also sold as sewing machine oil applicators).

Ted Kowalski
Fredericksburg, VA USA
TKowalsk@email.usps.gov


-----Original Message-----
From: crawford [mailto:fossil1@indy.net] 
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 11:18 PM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rock polishing

At 09:47 PM 9/12/02 -0400, you wrote:
>You got a good deal, but make sure you oil the bearings every couple
>days the first week or so of use to clean them up and extend their
life.

Is WD40 ok for this?



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 08:34:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford)
Date: Fri Sep 13 07:34:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020913095407.03e451e0@mail.indy.net>

Dear list ... I think I messed up

I stopped the tumbler last night and spritzed it with WD40 3 sprays ... 
short burst.

Now the motor runs but the long bar thing that turns the barrel does not 
turn.

I left it over night thinking the oil would drip off and tried it this 
morning ... still no turning.

I can turn it with my fingers but it wont turn on its own

Can I unscrew the metal housing over the motor and clean?  Will this help 
or hurt?

I should have known if I got involved with a motor it would turn out wrong.

Robin


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 08:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Hewitt)
Date: Fri Sep 13 07:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020913095407.03e451e0@mail.indy.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c25b34$116e6630$0201a8c0@ferrari>

It sounds like you got oil on the drive belt.  Take the motor cover off and
clean the belt with a paper towel and it should work good as new!

Paul in South Jersey
----- Original Message -----
From: "crawford" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help


>
> Dear list ... I think I messed up
>
> I stopped the tumbler last night and spritzed it with WD40 3 sprays ...
> short burst.
>
> Now the motor runs but the long bar thing that turns the barrel does not
> turn.
>
> I left it over night thinking the oil would drip off and tried it this
> morning ... still no turning.
>
> I can turn it with my fingers but it wont turn on its own
>
> Can I unscrew the metal housing over the motor and clean?  Will this help
> or hurt?
>
> I should have known if I got involved with a motor it would turn out
wrong.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 08:59:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Fri Sep 13 07:59:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
Message-ID: <3D820003.2C0CFE95@mindspring.com>

Gary, sorry I missed the discussion on MasMils.  I have used it a great
deal and found as you stated that the locations are only about 50-60%
accurate.  I did not realize that the accuracy varied by state by that
certainly could be true. What is really bad is that they could not even
pull mine locations off the topos and get them into the system
accurately.  I have found in locating a mine that the best thing to do,
if possible,  is to obtain a report on the district that describes the
mine.  Get the description of the mine location [adjacent to x mine, on
y creek, etc.] and the legal description and even the elevation.  This
data with Mas and or MRDS can usually get you to the mine.

Perhaps we need to get someone who is willing to shepherd volunteer
updates to the database - the USGS has no intention of doing this in the
foreseeable future.  LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 09:01:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 08:01:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
Message-ID: <20020913145956.QNXC3050.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>

Without seeing what you did, I might suggest that you could have dissolved 
some of the rubber or plastic parts with WD-40.  WD-40 is a solvent, and though 
they advertise it as a lubricant also, they shouldn't.  

Don

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 09:11:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catspaw Minerals)
Date: Fri Sep 13 08:11:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
In-Reply-To: <3D820003.2C0CFE95@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: 

I can see some poor grad student assigned the summer job of sending the data
off to the USBM... I remember when I worked with the Illinois Geological
Survey back in the summer of (gasp!) '69 and spent the season re-plotting
hydrologic data that had been plotted upside-down by my predecessor (he was
fond of bringing Southern Comfort to the office in his thermos!).  But I
digress...

I've volunteered to update my MasMils databases with new and/or revised
data, but no one has really gotten anything to me.  I keep the "master" in
an Access databases, so fixing things is a piece of cake.  

GcB


-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lawrence Dee
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:11 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy


Gary, sorry I missed the discussion on MasMils.  I have used it a great
deal and found as you stated that the locations are only about 50-60%
accurate.  I did not realize that the accuracy varied by state by that
certainly could be true. What is really bad is that they could not even
pull mine locations off the topos and get them into the system
accurately.  I have found in locating a mine that the best thing to do,
if possible,  is to obtain a report on the district that describes the
mine.  Get the description of the mine location [adjacent to x mine, on
y creek, etc.] and the legal description and even the elevation.  This
data with Mas and or MRDS can usually get you to the mine.

Perhaps we need to get someone who is willing to shepherd volunteer
updates to the database - the USGS has no intention of doing this in the
foreseeable future.  LD


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 09:23:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 08:23:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References:  <3D820003.2C0CFE95@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D8202B2.AF7AE56F@earthlink.net>

I have found that by using Mas MIls, topos and GPS one can usually get  to
within a few hundred meters, or metres for our foreign friends, of the
mine.  It is, however, often not easy to find, due to the lay of the land.
We explored one gulch for about 2 hours and were about even with the mine
adit, only two smaller gullies over from it.  To know the area is to make
it easier.

The good shepherd idea is also one of the better suggestions.  Nothing
beats a knowledgeable person to guide you.

Walt


Lawrence Dee wrote:

> Gary, sorry I missed the discussion on MasMils.  I have used it a great
> deal and found as you stated that the locations are only about 50-60%
> accurate.  I did not realize that the accuracy varied by state by that
> certainly could be true. What is really bad is that they could not even
> pull mine locations off the topos and get them into the system
> accurately.  I have found in locating a mine that the best thing to do,
> if possible,  is to obtain a report on the district that describes the
> mine.  Get the description of the mine location [adjacent to x mine, on
> y creek, etc.] and the legal description and even the elevation.  This
> data with Mas and or MRDS can usually get you to the mine.
>
> Perhaps we need to get someone who is willing to shepherd volunteer
> updates to the database - the USGS has no intention of doing this in the
> foreseeable future.  LD
>
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> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 09:28:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 08:28:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
Message-ID: <20020913152701.MIGQ5139.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>

Of course, one wonders how accurate the new data would be as well, and how it 
would be validated.  That is how MAS/MILS got into a mess in the first place.  
It's just like that mineral website where people can put in their own data, 
which makes the whole thing scientifically suspect *shudder*.

I am currently using MAS/MILS to resolve a dispute between three people as to 
which mines they visited during a trip.  They are reporting minerals found, and 
lecturing with photos, so getting it right is important.  Unfortunately, few if 
any of our abandoned mines or other geological features have neat signs in the 
middle saying "THUNDER RIDGE" or "OLD COYOTE MINE."  Someone might *think* 
they've found the adits and dumps to the Old Coyote Mine, according to local 
legend and belief, but without the original survey data they might be pretty 
far off.

At least, with GPS in common use now, it it easy for someone to note the 
location where they are standing (+/- the accuracy drift), even though they 
might not be standing on the named locality they think they are.

Don

 

> I've volunteered to update my MasMils databases with new and/or revised
> data, but no one has really gotten anything to me.  I keep the "master" in
> an Access databases, so fixing things is a piece of cake.  
> 
> GcB

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 09:43:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ray Prater, Jr.)
Date: Fri Sep 13 08:43:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020913095407.03e451e0@mail.indy.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c25b3b$eb8bc900$2a5ce5d8@dell>

Tip # 1: Never stop a tumbler in the middle of a run unless
you plan to remove and wash the rocks; the slurry of
ground-up rock can settle out and set up like cement.  You
can get away with this early in the run but make sure the
contents of the barrel are loose before starting the tumbler
again.

Tip # 2: Keep the belt or o-ring and the pulleys on the
motor and roller clean and free of lubricant to prevent
slippage.

Tip # 3: The bearings on the ends of the rollers need to be
kept clean, especially if slurry has leaked out of a barrel.
Only a small amount of lubricant (a drop or two per bearing)
is needed.  Extra lubricant can run along the length of the
roller and cause slippage there.  Rubber barrels have less
trouble with this than plastic or metal ones that run on
their rims.

Check these areas and keep us posted.
Ray

----- Original Message -----
From: "crawford" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:01 AM
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help


> I stopped the tumbler last night and spritzed it with WD40
3 sprays ...
>
> Now the motor runs but the long bar thing that turns the
barrel does not
> turn.



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 09:48:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 08:48:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
Message-ID: 

Robin,

If you squirted the rubber belt then it will slip till you dry it off...You 
can take off the cover to inspect, Make sure that it is unplugged 
first....Just to be safe...then inspect the belt and dry it if needed...if 
the motor is running and you can turn the long bar then that should be all 
that is wrong with it...unless you have a direct drive shaft then you have 
another problem...possible bearings, possible?????

For now and till then,
JOHN


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 10:04:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood)
Date: Fri Sep 13 09:04:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

The problem originates in the concept of getting a "product" out the door as
fast as you can to justify your continued existence. This is part of the
reason I'm no longer with any "geological survey". In the good old days
people actually checked data themselves.

Henry Barwood

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Catspaw Minerals
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:10 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy


I can see some poor grad student assigned the summer job of sending the data
off to the USBM... I remember when I worked with the Illinois Geological
Survey back in the summer of (gasp!) '69 and spent the season re-plotting
hydrologic data that had been plotted upside-down by my predecessor (he was
fond of bringing Southern Comfort to the office in his thermos!).  But I
digress...

I've volunteered to update my MasMils databases with new and/or revised
data, but no one has really gotten anything to me.  I keep the "master" in
an Access databases, so fixing things is a piece of cake.  

GcB


-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lawrence Dee
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:11 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy


Gary, sorry I missed the discussion on MasMils.  I have used it a great
deal and found as you stated that the locations are only about 50-60%
accurate.  I did not realize that the accuracy varied by state by that
certainly could be true. What is really bad is that they could not even
pull mine locations off the topos and get them into the system
accurately.  I have found in locating a mine that the best thing to do,
if possible,  is to obtain a report on the district that describes the
mine.  Get the description of the mine location [adjacent to x mine, on
y creek, etc.] and the legal description and even the elevation.  This
data with Mas and or MRDS can usually get you to the mine.

Perhaps we need to get someone who is willing to shepherd volunteer
updates to the database - the USGS has no intention of doing this in the
foreseeable future.  LD

_______________________________________________
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Subscription Services:
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 10:12:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 09:12:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
Message-ID: <3D820E3B.69DA4F3C@earthlink.net>

Henry

When we used satellite photos, we were always told to "ground proof" the info
before issuing it as edict.  I guess this shows how important that is.

Thanks for the input.

Walt

Henry Barwood wrote:

> The problem originates in the concept of getting a "product" out the door as
> fast as you can to justify your continued existence. This is part of the
> reason I'm no longer with any "geological survey". In the good old days
> people actually checked data themselves.
>
> Henry Barwood


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 11:11:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 10:11:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
Message-ID: <18.2547355c.2ab3760e@aol.com>

I guess the operative word in your inquiry is "good". There's a lot of 
locality data available which is simply wrong. Without knowing which data are 
"good", your uncertainty remains. Unless you are writing a guidebook, if only 
for your own use, you still need to verify the locality data.

When hard copy maps were the basis of locality data, at least the dot should 
have been somewhere near the spot, although this was not always the case. 
With the locality data now encrypted into the sterility of decimals or other 
formats, errors crop up which are unnoticed until someone tries to use those 
data. There was a listing recently of graphite localities in New England. The 
first co-ordinate I checked was in the middle of Long Island Sound. While 
there are a few commodities mined on the sea floor, I doubt that graphite is 
one of them. A search of an actual map revealed that the mine was about 80 km 
to the NNW.

While it is tempting to transfer data into one's data base for the sake of 
increasing its size. Henry is right. Nothing beats checking the data for 
accuracy - and relevancy! Accurate data can be irrelevant. I've seen many a 
time when an accurate value in a chemical analysis was in the wrong column. 
Once a column error occurs, such as could be easily the case with locality 
data, all of the accurate numbers become irrelevant.

Good luck, Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 11:39:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Fri Sep 13 10:39:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References:  <3D820003.2C0CFE95@mindspring.com> <3D8202B2.AF7AE56F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D82255E.CCEBC3FC@mindspring.com>

Walt, I have had the same experience - the location only has to be off a
few hundred yards and you are really beating the brush and combing the
hills.  Of course every hole in ground had a name and got into the
literature no matter how small it was!!! LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 11:42:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Fri Sep 13 10:42:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <20020913152701.MIGQ5139.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <3D82260E.1C333A58@mindspring.com>

Don, the only solution to the problem you mentioned is to have an old
timer who knows the area go with you and give a name to each of the
multitude of diggings in the district.  I have done that a few times and
was amazed at what I learned. LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 11:47:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Fri Sep 13 10:47:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
Message-ID: <3D822766.C38DFA99@mindspring.com>

I wonder if Henry has not hit upon a real problem with USGS data.  I
have had considerable difficulty replicating sites they mention be it
fossil or mineral.   They cannot seem make a legal description beyond
1/4 1/4 section and continue to use bad Mas/MRDS data even though they
are operating in the area and could correct it.  I have thought about a
letter to the Director suggesting field personnel be given GPS units -
seems simple enough even for the govt.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 12:02:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 11:02:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References:  <3D820003.2C0CFE95@mindspring.com> <3D8202B2.AF7AE56F@earthlink.net> <3D82255E.CCEBC3FC@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D8227FD.DC658D0C@earthlink.net>

Yeah, but there are a lot in the Yuma area which are not marked or badly
marked.  OR, have never been mapped.

But that 100 yards is as good as the distance to the moon when you are on
the wrong side of it.

Sounds like you have been there and done that.

Walt

Lawrence Dee wrote:

> Walt, I have had the same experience - the location only has to be off a
> few hundred yards and you are really beating the brush and combing the
> hills.  Of course every hole in ground had a name and got into the
> literature no matter how small it was!!! LD
>
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> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 12:06:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 11:06:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <20020913152701.MIGQ5139.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> <3D82260E.1C333A58@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D8228EB.796446C2@earthlink.net>

Lawrence

An old timer, Charlie Hoy took me out into the quartzite area in '52 and
dragged my sorry young butt up and down the hills.  We had a great time.  I
learned much of what is the basis of my vocation, avocation and hobby from
him.  He is long gone, but I hope I have passed on to others some of what
he showed me.  We are losing a lot of this because of the lack of contact
with, lack of respect for, or total disregard for older folks by the young
squirts.  They just don't think of us old folks as having anything of
value.  Hope they see the error of their ways and accept some of the
information we have to impart as it was imparted to us.
Walt

Lawrence Dee wrote:

> Don, the only solution to the problem you mentioned is to have an old
> timer who knows the area go with you and give a name to each of the
> multitude of diggings in the district.  I have done that a few times and
> was amazed at what I learned. LD
>
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> Subscription Services:
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 12:30:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 11:30:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
Message-ID: <28.2c7cfcf8.2ab3886c@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/13/02 11:06:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
geologo@earthlink.net writes:


>   We are losing a lot of this because of the lack of contact
> with, lack of respect for, or total disregard for older folks by the young
> squirts.  They just don't think of us old folks as having anything of
> value.  Hope they see the error of their ways and accept some of the
> information we have to impart as it was imparted to us.
> 
My grandfather said something similar one day, about 1949. All my uncles were 
over by a tractor, trying to figue out why it wouldn't start. I like horses 
so I was over wathcing my grandfather harness the horses.

Grant


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 12:38:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 11:38:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
Message-ID: 

In a message dated 9/13/02 7:35:05 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fossil1@indy.net 
writes:

> 
> Can I unscrew the metal housing over the motor and clean?  Will this help 
> or hurt?
> 

The belt (usually an O ring) needs to be tight but not to tight.

Grant


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 12:42:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 13 11:42:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing
Message-ID: <167.13cf3793.2ab38b59@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/13/02 7:02:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
TKOWALSK@email.usps.gov writes:


>  The small needle tipped gun oil applicators work
> very well (also sold as sewing machine oil applicators).
> 
Out west they sell plastic containers with a long nozzle. It's marked 'Swamp 
Cooler' lubricant.  If you don't know what a swamp cooler is they probaly 
don't sell it where you live.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 12:57:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood)
Date: Fri Sep 13 11:57:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
In-Reply-To: <3D822766.C38DFA99@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: 

The problem is that most "geology" today is done at a computer screen, not
in the field. This, of course, looks great in the Director's report "...we
generated 1,999 interactive GIS maps of the East Liverpool quadrangle in
only 2 weeks....", but means little if you happen to be looking for the
mineable coal seams. Eventually the excesses of the Dot Com revolution (as
applied to geology) will come home to roost, but sadly not in my remaining
lifetime.

On the other hand, I've become one of those "old timers" who have a vast
reservoir of personal knowledge of mineral locations (and a well stocked
library!).

Henry

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lawrence Dee
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:59 PM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy


I wonder if Henry has not hit upon a real problem with USGS data.  I
have had considerable difficulty replicating sites they mention be it
fossil or mineral.   They cannot seem make a legal description beyond
1/4 1/4 section and continue to use bad Mas/MRDS data even though they
are operating in the area and could correct it.  I have thought about a
letter to the Director suggesting field personnel be given GPS units -
seems simple enough even for the govt.


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Subscription Services:
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 13:49:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Fri Sep 13 12:49:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <20020913152701.MIGQ5139.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> <3D82260E.1C333A58@mindspring.com> <3D8228EB.796446C2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D8243D5.BCBF1411@mindspring.com>

Walt, I fully agree with the disregard for the old timers.  In fact in a
book I am writing for prospectors I strongly recommend that prospectors
talk to the area old timers.  Not only did the alert prospectors spot
all kinds of minerals besides the precious metals they were usually
after, they also knew the places you were not going to find what you
were looking for.  Thus you could be saved lots of time roaming around
in the field.  I feel it is unfortunate that so many are gone and have
taken their information with them. LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 15:03:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 14:03:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <28.2c7cfcf8.2ab3886c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D82524E.99140010@earthlink.net>

Grant

You are dating both of us.

Walt

Lapadary@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/13/02 11:06:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> geologo@earthlink.net writes:
>
> >   We are losing a lot of this because of the lack of contact
> > with, lack of respect for, or total disregard for older folks by the young
> > squirts.  They just don't think of us old folks as having anything of
> > value.  Hope they see the error of their ways and accept some of the
> > information we have to impart as it was imparted to us.
> >
> My grandfather said something similar one day, about 1949. All my uncles were
> over by a tractor, trying to figue out why it wouldn't start. I like horses
> so I was over wathcing my grandfather harness the horses.
>
> Grant
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 15:04:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 14:04:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
Message-ID: <3D8252B9.AEDE26BA@earthlink.net>

Henrry

Let's hear it for the  old guys.

Walt

Henry Barwood wrote:

> The problem is that most "geology" today is done at a computer screen, not
> in the field. This, of course, looks great in the Director's report "...we
> generated 1,999 interactive GIS maps of the East Liverpool quadrangle in
> only 2 weeks....", but means little if you happen to be looking for the
> mineable coal seams. Eventually the excesses of the Dot Com revolution (as
> applied to geology) will come home to roost, but sadly not in my remaining
> lifetime.
>
> On the other hand, I've become one of those "old timers" who have a vast
> reservoir of personal knowledge of mineral locations (and a well stocked
> library!).
>
> Henry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
> [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lawrence Dee
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:59 PM
> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
>
> I wonder if Henry has not hit upon a real problem with USGS data.  I
> have had considerable difficulty replicating sites they mention be it
> fossil or mineral.   They cannot seem make a legal description beyond
> 1/4 1/4 section and continue to use bad Mas/MRDS data even though they
> are operating in the area and could correct it.  I have thought about a
> letter to the Director suggesting field personnel be given GPS units -
> seems simple enough even for the govt.
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 15:19:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 14:19:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <20020913152701.MIGQ5139.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> <3D82260E.1C333A58@mindspring.com> <3D8228EB.796446C2@earthlink.net> <3D8243D5.BCBF1411@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D825607.8504FDEB@earthlink.net>

Many young and brash guys, NOT you nor I, of course, with a world of
knowledge from books, soon go to the field and find it isn't exactly like
the books said it should be.

Reminds me of the old saying my geology prof. had on his office.  He was on
old exploration geologist in Africa.

When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is rather hard to remember
that the original objective was to drain the swamp.

Says a lot.

I have learned a lot from the "old timers."  They may have some strange
notions about how the stuff got there, but they can tell you a lot about
what is there.  They may not know what it is, but the old guy who told me
about the funny blue rock up in the mountains wouldn't believe me when I
told him it was petrified wood.  He couldn't see that wood could ever turn
to stone.  Yet, he knew where lots of "stuff" was.  Took a lifetime of
wandering about to get it. We were looking for an old adit to a bitmuls
mine near McKitterick, CA when an old boy in the only coffee shop in town
said he knew. He did. It was about a kilometer away from where it was
supposed to have been.  Had a stream of brea running out of it.  Got really
nasty that day.

Walt

Lawrence Dee wrote:

> Walt, I fully agree with the disregard for the old timers.  In fact in a
> book I am writing for prospectors I strongly recommend that prospectors
> talk to the area old timers.  Not only did the alert prospectors spot
> all kinds of minerals besides the precious metals they were usually
> after, they also knew the places you were not going to find what you
> were looking for.  Thus you could be saved lots of time roaming around
> in the field.  I feel it is unfortunate that so many are gone and have
> taken their information with them. LD
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/mixed
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/x-vcard
> ---
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 15:57:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Hewitt)
Date: Fri Sep 13 14:57:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
 <3D8252B9.AEDE26BA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000c01c25b70$572b3770$0401a8c0@superduper>

I know this is off topic but I just got an email with the subject line "A
powerful tool" with an attachment that was infected by the klez virus.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy


> Henrry
>
> Let's hear it for the  old guys.
>
> Walt
>
> Henry Barwood wrote:
>
> > The problem is that most "geology" today is done at a computer screen,
not
> > in the field. This, of course, looks great in the Director's report
"...we
> > generated 1,999 interactive GIS maps of the East Liverpool quadrangle in
> > only 2 weeks....", but means little if you happen to be looking for the
> > mineable coal seams. Eventually the excesses of the Dot Com revolution
(as
> > applied to geology) will come home to roost, but sadly not in my
remaining
> > lifetime.
> >
> > On the other hand, I've become one of those "old timers" who have a vast
> > reservoir of personal knowledge of mineral locations (and a well stocked
> > library!).
> >
> > Henry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
> > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lawrence Dee
> > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:59 PM
> > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
> >
> > I wonder if Henry has not hit upon a real problem with USGS data.  I
> > have had considerable difficulty replicating sites they mention be it
> > fossil or mineral.   They cannot seem make a legal description beyond
> > 1/4 1/4 section and continue to use bad Mas/MRDS data even though they
> > are operating in the area and could correct it.  I have thought about a
> > letter to the Director suggesting field personnel be given GPS units -
> > seems simple enough even for the govt.
> >
> > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > multipart/mixed
> >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> >   text/x-vcard
> > ---
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 16:14:09 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 15:14:09 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
 <3D8252B9.AEDE26BA@earthlink.net> <000c01c25b70$572b3770$0401a8c0@superduper>
Message-ID: <3D82630A.AA95759C@earthlink.net>

Thank God I have a Mac

There arre several of these things floating around from people we have never
heard of.  Another ploy is to use something about Enjoy this.  They seem to be
rather dull witted in figuring out their titles.  I usually just delete when I
see them, especially the Powerful Tool title.

Thanks for the heads up.

Walt

Paul Hewitt wrote:

> I know this is off topic but I just got an email with the subject line "A
> powerful tool" with an attachment that was infected by the klez virus.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 5:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
>
> > Henrry
> >
> > Let's hear it for the  old guys.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Henry Barwood wrote:
> >
> > > The problem is that most "geology" today is done at a computer screen,
> not
> > > in the field. This, of course, looks great in the Director's report
> "...we
> > > generated 1,999 interactive GIS maps of the East Liverpool quadrangle in
> > > only 2 weeks....", but means little if you happen to be looking for the
> > > mineable coal seams. Eventually the excesses of the Dot Com revolution
> (as
> > > applied to geology) will come home to roost, but sadly not in my
> remaining
> > > lifetime.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I've become one of those "old timers" who have a vast
> > > reservoir of personal knowledge of mineral locations (and a well stocked
> > > library!).
> > >
> > > Henry
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
> > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Lawrence Dee
> > > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:59 PM
> > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
> > >
> > > I wonder if Henry has not hit upon a real problem with USGS data.  I
> > > have had considerable difficulty replicating sites they mention be it
> > > fossil or mineral.   They cannot seem make a legal description beyond
> > > 1/4 1/4 section and continue to use bad Mas/MRDS data even though they
> > > are operating in the area and could correct it.  I have thought about a
> > > letter to the Director suggesting field personnel be given GPS units -
> > > seems simple enough even for the govt.
> > >
> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > > multipart/mixed
> > >   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > >   text/x-vcard
> > > ---
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 17:09:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Paul Green/Robin Lyn Green)
Date: Fri Sep 13 16:09:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Family events at Newark Prehistoric Indian Site and at Flint Ridge State Memorial in Central Ohio this weekend
Message-ID: <003501c25b79$9ece8420$9600000a@alltel.net>

The Newark Earthworks and Flint Ridge State Memorial will host=20
family educational events this weekend.   This Saturday (9/14) at the=20
Newark Earthworks (formerly Moundbuilders Park) tours will be offered=20
from 1:00 till 4:00pm.   And in the evening, from 7:00 till 9:00 a=20
Storytelling Under The Stars program will be offered at a cost pf $3-
per family.
On Sunday (9/15) at Flint Ridge State Memorial free tours will be=20
offered from 1:00 till 4:00pm.   These events are part of History=20
Week 2002 in Licking County. =20

The Newark Earthworks is located on state route 79 in Heath just south =
of Newark, Ohio (35 miles east of Columbus) and Flint ridge is located =
on Ohio state route 668 about 4 miles north of Interstate 70.   This IS =
79/Sr 668 intersection is about 40 miles east of Columbus.





--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 17:10:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Fri Sep 13 16:10:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
 <3D8252B9.AEDE26BA@earthlink.net> <000c01c25b70$572b3770$0401a8c0@superduper>
Message-ID: <3D827027.49A5@Tomaszewski.net>

Paul Hewitt wrote:
> 
> I know this is off topic but I just got an email with the subject line "A
> powerful tool" with an attachment that was infected by the klez virus.

The KLEZ virus/worm *always* forges the FROM header. If KLEZ says it
came from Walt that is the one person you can be sure did not send it.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 17:26:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Fri Sep 13 16:26:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Montana info
References: <003501c25b79$9ece8420$9600000a@alltel.net>
Message-ID: <3D8273E4.81636758@earthlink.net>

Someone, Patrece, I think was looking for Montana info.

The rockhound's guide to Montana

Robert Feldman

1985  Falcon Press and Publishing Company
Billings and Helena, MT.

Hope that helps.

Walt



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 18:14:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Selby Bob)
Date: Fri Sep 13 17:14:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Facetting machine, saws, rough, and jewelry on sale a club's website
Message-ID: <20020914001319.41141.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

RE: www.OlympicRocks.com

Hi,

We just completed a major change to our dual club's
website.  We now have many, many classified Ads placed
by our club members. Plus some of our sponsors are
having sales to promote our site.

If you interested in buying lapidary or jewelry items
for a very low cost, check us out.  If you would like
to advertise your rock and jewelry related items, I
can post them for very little till the end of the
month!

Thanks for your consideration!!

  http://www.OlympicRocks.com/

Bob Selby

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 20:11:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox)
Date: Fri Sep 13 19:11:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] No list admin for ~ 2 weeks (fwd)
Message-ID: 

Greetings, y'all.

There will be no list admin for approximately 2 weeks. I move to Portland, 
OR tomorrow, and won't have internet access there until school starts.  
Plus, I'll be in the field all of next week, so office mail is down, too.

So if you have a problem, either check the website docs, or hang tight. 
Not ignoring you; I'm just not going to be near a computer for a week or 
two.

Thanks!

Aaron Fox
Rockhounds Admin.

-- 
afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox
  GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request
"Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..."



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 20:11:46 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Fri Sep 13 19:11:46 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
In-Reply-To: <000e01c25b11$d86d2b40$30ab77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: 


I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:

http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp

Bryan



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 21:00:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u)
Date: Fri Sep 13 20:00:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
References: 
Message-ID: <006201c25b9b$21f4e030$f2ae3a41@s4b5j4>

I tried and got this!
Network Error
Unable to request URL from host skyandtelescope.com:80: Connection refused
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:10 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?


> 
> 
> I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
> second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> 
> http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> 
> Bryan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 21:03:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Fri Sep 13 20:03:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
References: 
Message-ID: <3D82A6DB.1393@Tomaszewski.net>

J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> 
> I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
> second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> 
> http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> 
> Bryan
> 

The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less than healthy
from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
webpage tonight.

BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 22:50:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny)
Date: Fri Sep 13 21:50:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
In-Reply-To: <3D820E3B.69DA4F3C@earthlink.net>
References: 
Message-ID: 

Walt, Henry and others,

Greetings from the Denver Shows! You should be here! Not on the Internet
kicking around Mas/Mils for the umpteenth time.

As one who did some of the data input to Mas/Mils (a tiny amount for a
couple months many years ago) let me explain again the the data was taken
from available data, by available hired hands (including high school kids).
Remember that data includes all kinds of information from any available
source -- including a lot of questionable data (USGS, USBM, state surveys,
theses, etc.) that often had vague descriptions as "across the canyon" or
"on the north side of Geez I'm Lost Peak." Most of it was not field checked
as part of the project, generally it was only field checked when that could
be done as part of another project, such as the preparation of the MLS
series, Wilderness studies, etc.

I defy anyone on this list to take the available data for the Quartz Hill
District, Montana and come up with accurate locations for the mines there
-- this includes the USGS topo maps and Bulletins. I've been trying for two
years, and I can tell where there are mines on the ground, but not which
ones fit which names for 3/4 of them. Please, someone take my challenge and
prove me and the USBM imcompetent. (I may look stupid then, but at least I
would know which mine is which after you've done it.)

As a contrary point, so far I've found the data to be mostly accurate
(within it's error factor at least - as given in the database).

Regards,

Lanny



>Henry
>
>When we used satellite photos, we were always told to "ground proof" the info
>before issuing it as edict.  I guess this shows how important that is.
>
>Thanks for the input.
>
>Walt
>
>Henry Barwood wrote:
>
>> The problem originates in the concept of getting a "product" out the door as
>> fast as you can to justify your continued existence. This is part of the
>> reason I'm no longer with any "geological survey". In the good old days
>> people actually checked data themselves.
>>
>> Henry Barwood
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 13 22:50:29 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny)
Date: Fri Sep 13 21:50:29 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] email address Jim McGlasson ?
In-Reply-To: <0da501c25a98$e1262ee0$8b9d76d5@pandora.be>
References: <33.2ce64dba.2ab1e5f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

Hi Herwig,

Jim is here at the Denver Show, I'll make a note to ask him tomorrow about
his email.

Regards,

Lanny


>Hi all,
>just tried to send Jim McGlasson (Tucson, AZ) an email, but it bounced:
>: unknown user: "jmcglasson"
>
>Does anyone have another (more recent?) email address he can be contacted at
>?
>Thanks in advance,
>Sincerely,  Herwig
>
>Herwig Pelckmans
>Worldwide Mineral Collector
>Belgium  Europe
>http://www.xlizd.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 07:16:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sat Sep 14 06:16:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
In-Reply-To: <3D82A6DB.1393@Tomaszewski.net>
Message-ID: 

May be they are actually thinking that it may have been a multiple comet hit
like the one that hit Jupiter a few years ago. I got the impression that
this was tied to the Nemesis theorey since they mentioned 'something'
causing a disturbance in the Oort Cloud.

I couldn't get thru to the website either, not even the root. The site must
be down.

I tried a google search and found an interesting article on the Triassic
extinctions and quite a bit on conodonts and impact craters:

http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/1998/headln-0327
98.html

Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't find a good hit
anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be non-north
american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is supposed to be
newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:

http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm

"From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are known. The best
known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated diameter 180 to 300
km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk craters in the
Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer respectively. The
Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer, the Eagle
Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and the Upheaval Dome
in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters are estimated
to be 65 million years old."

I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they refined the dating to
gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the error bands.

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
>
> J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> >
> > I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
> > second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> >
> > http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> >
> > Bryan
> >
>
> The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less than healthy
> from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
> webpage tonight.
>
> BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
> crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 09:39:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Sat Sep 14 08:39:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
References: 
Message-ID: <002501c25c05$c763e600$e29d77d5@pandora.be>

There's an interesting and plausible theory about the periodicity at which
earth is exposed to impacting Oort cloud objects.
The spiral arms of our galaxy "the Milky Way" are not rotating at the same
speed as the galaxy itself. In fact, those spiral arms are not really "real"
in the sense of lasting objects... They are wavefronts of intense starbirth
that propagate  through the galaxy in a circular way. Our solar system
doesn't "surf" those waves but is overtaken by one every sixty million years
or so... The wavefront that overtakes us is seething with supermassive and
hot young stars. Stars there that are much closer together than outside
dense front of the the spiral arms.

As the massive stars pass by the solar system, their mighty gravitational
pull disturbes the Oort cloud. At that time a yet unknow number of comets
starts to fall inwards... They keep falling for millions of years until they
reach the inner parts of our system. Earth is a tiny object to hit, seen
from the Oort cloud. But there may be a LOT of them underway already. It all
depends on how shaky the ride through the galaxy's spiral arm really was.
If we passed through a quit region then nothing much will happen. However,
if we skimmed along a cluster of supergiants of 20 or more sunmasses each...
well, we may get treated to a buckshot or two of comets.

Now is about the time to expect those comets since the last extinction wave
is about 60 million years ago.

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?


| May be they are actually thinking that it may have been a multiple comet
hit
| like the one that hit Jupiter a few years ago. I got the impression that
| this was tied to the Nemesis theorey since they mentioned 'something'
| causing a disturbance in the Oort Cloud.
|
| I couldn't get thru to the website either, not even the root. The site
must
| be down.
|
| I tried a google search and found an interesting article on the Triassic
| extinctions and quite a bit on conodonts and impact craters:
|
|
http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/1998/headln-0327
98.html
|
| Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't find a good hit
| anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be
non-north
| american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is supposed to
be
| newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:
|
| http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm
|
| "From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are known. The best
| known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated diameter 180 to
300
| km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk craters in
the
| Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer respectively.
The
| Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer, the Eagle
| Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and the Upheaval
Dome
| in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters are estimated
| to be 65 million years old."
|
| I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they refined the dating
to
| gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the error bands.
|
| Bryan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| >
| > J Bryan Kramer wrote:
| > >
| > > I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
| > > second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
| > >
| > > http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
| > >
| > > Bryan
| > >
| >
| > The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less than healthy
| > from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
| > webpage tonight.
| >
| > BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
| > crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.
| > _______________________________________________
| > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| > Subscription Services:
| > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
| >
| >
|
|
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 09:41:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Thomas Yancey)
Date: Sat Sep 14 08:41:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

A word of caution. The report quoted  below is quite speculative and 
these sites may not have formed at the end of the Cretaceous. For 
example, the Upheaval Dome site is not properly dated and may have 
formed much earlier or much later. It cannot even be proven that 
Upheaval Dome represents an impact site, although that interpretation 
seems reasonable. It takes a great deal of work to date an impact 
structure and until that work is done it is misleading to accept 
someone's suggestion as reality. Such thoughts make good stories for 
popular consumption, but that is all. They are fun thoughts, not real 
science. The Manson impact site in Iowa is a good example of an 
impact structure that upon several years of study based on drilling 
and radiometric dating was found to have formed many millions of 
years before the end of the Cretaceous.

T. Yancey


snip
>Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't find a good hit
>anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be non-north
>american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is supposed to be
>newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:
>
>http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm
>
>"From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are known. The best
>known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated diameter 180 to 300
>km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk craters in the
>Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer respectively. The
>Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer, the Eagle
>Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and the Upheaval Dome
>in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters are estimated
>to be 65 million years old."
>
>I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they refined the dating to
>gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the error bands.
snip

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 10:12:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 09:12:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
References:  <002501c25c05$c763e600$e29d77d5@pandora.be>
Message-ID: <3D835FBE.2E659864@earthlink.net>

There are some theories that the Dinos were wiped out by a combo of the Deccan
Traps eruption, if that is the word for it, and the impact of the meteorite at
Chixulub.  The two may contain enough raw material to change the albedo of the
earth sufficiently to lower the temp to kill many species and create a darkness
that would doom cold blooded species and plants which may have doomed the
dinos.  I wasn't there for it.

The Oort cloud hypothesis has been around and is probably one of the
contributors of the periodic extinctions of which we have evidence.  Each one
seems to take about 80 % of the species and give new ones a chance to start.

The Period of time which Axel speaks has been the subject of considerable
debate in certain scientific circles.  We are about due for another impact,
according to some, give or take 2 or 3 million years.

Walt

Axel Emmermann wrote:

> There's an interesting and plausible theory about the periodicity at which
> earth is exposed to impacting Oort cloud objects.
> The spiral arms of our galaxy "the Milky Way" are not rotating at the same
> speed as the galaxy itself. In fact, those spiral arms are not really "real"
> in the sense of lasting objects... They are wavefronts of intense starbirth
> that propagate  through the galaxy in a circular way. Our solar system
> doesn't "surf" those waves but is overtaken by one every sixty million years
> or so... The wavefront that overtakes us is seething with supermassive and
> hot young stars. Stars there that are much closer together than outside
> dense front of the the spiral arms.
>
> As the massive stars pass by the solar system, their mighty gravitational
> pull disturbes the Oort cloud. At that time a yet unknow number of comets
> starts to fall inwards... They keep falling for millions of years until they
> reach the inner parts of our system. Earth is a tiny object to hit, seen
> from the Oort cloud. But there may be a LOT of them underway already. It all
> depends on how shaky the ride through the galaxy's spiral arm really was.
> If we passed through a quit region then nothing much will happen. However,
> if we skimmed along a cluster of supergiants of 20 or more sunmasses each...
> well, we may get treated to a buckshot or two of comets.
>
> Now is about the time to expect those comets since the last extinction wave
> is about 60 million years ago.
>
> Axel Emmermann
> Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> Home : Lobbesplein 12
>             B-2640 Mortsel
>             Belgium
> Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> E-mail:
> axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> Visit our homepage:
> http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> Bezoek onze web-site:
> http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> My own web-site:
> http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:15 PM
> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
>
> | May be they are actually thinking that it may have been a multiple comet
> hit
> | like the one that hit Jupiter a few years ago. I got the impression that
> | this was tied to the Nemesis theorey since they mentioned 'something'
> | causing a disturbance in the Oort Cloud.
> |
> | I couldn't get thru to the website either, not even the root. The site
> must
> | be down.
> |
> | I tried a google search and found an interesting article on the Triassic
> | extinctions and quite a bit on conodonts and impact craters:
> |
> |
> http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/1998/headln-0327
> 98.html
> |
> | Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't find a good hit
> | anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be
> non-north
> | american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is supposed to
> be
> | newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:
> |
> | http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm
> |
> | "From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are known. The best
> | known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated diameter 180 to
> 300
> | km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk craters in
> the
> | Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer respectively.
> The
> | Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer, the Eagle
> | Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and the Upheaval
> Dome
> | in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters are estimated
> | to be 65 million years old."
> |
> | I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they refined the dating
> to
> | gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the error bands.
> |
> | Bryan
> |
> | > -----Original Message-----
> | >
> | > J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> | > >
> | > > I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
> | > > second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> | > >
> | > > http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> | > >
> | > > Bryan
> | > >
> | >
> | > The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less than healthy
> | > from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
> | > webpage tonight.
> | >
> | > BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
> | > crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.
> | > _______________________________________________
> | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | > Subscription Services:
> | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> | _______________________________________________
> | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> | Subscription Services:
> | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> |
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 10:15:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 09:15:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
References: 
Message-ID: <3D836082.1DDD5474@earthlink.net>

The problem with Cretaceous and other ancient impact sites is that as the earth
changes many are destroyed if they are not of sufficient size tobe resist.

There are series of craters in Australia and even in the US which are of
ancient age but are barely visible even to very sophisticated imaging devices.
The physical remains are very subtle.
Walt


J Bryan Kramer wrote:

> May be they are actually thinking that it may have been a multiple comet hit
> like the one that hit Jupiter a few years ago. I got the impression that
> this was tied to the Nemesis theorey since they mentioned 'something'
> causing a disturbance in the Oort Cloud.
>
> I couldn't get thru to the website either, not even the root. The site must
> be down.
>
> I tried a google search and found an interesting article on the Triassic
> extinctions and quite a bit on conodonts and impact craters:
>
> http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/1998/headln-0327
> 98.html
>
> Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't find a good hit
> anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be non-north
> american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is supposed to be
> newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:
>
> http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm
>
> "From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are known. The best
> known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated diameter 180 to 300
> km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk craters in the
> Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer respectively. The
> Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer, the Eagle
> Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and the Upheaval Dome
> in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters are estimated
> to be 65 million years old."
>
> I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they refined the dating to
> gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the error bands.
>
> Bryan
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > >
> > > I thought some of you would find this interesting, there is a possible
> > > second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> > >
> > > http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> > >
> > > Bryan
> > >
> >
> > The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less than healthy
> > from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
> > webpage tonight.
> >
> > BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
> > crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 10:16:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 09:16:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] No list admin for ~ 2 weeks (fwd)
References: 
Message-ID: <3D8360B9.E6C91418@earthlink.net>

Good luck on the move.

walt

Aaron Fox wrote:

> Greetings, y'all.
>
> There will be no list admin for approximately 2 weeks. I move to Portland,
> OR tomorrow, and won't have internet access there until school starts.
> Plus, I'll be in the field all of next week, so office mail is down, too.
>
> So if you have a problem, either check the website docs, or hang tight.
> Not ignoring you; I'm just not going to be near a computer for a week or
> two.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Aaron Fox
> Rockhounds Admin.
>
> --
> afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox
>   GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request
> "Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 10:51:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sat Sep 14 09:51:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
In-Reply-To: <3D835FBE.2E659864@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

The P/T extinctions are supposed to be associated with the Siberian Traps
and some impacts. The Siberian Traps put out enough lava to cover all the
land surface on earth 3 meters deep IIRC.

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
>
> There are some theories that the Dinos were wiped out by a combo
> of the Deccan
> Traps eruption, if that is the word for it, and the impact of the
> meteorite at
> Chixulub.  The two may contain enough raw material to change the
> albedo of the
> earth sufficiently to lower the temp to kill many species and
> create a darkness
> that would doom cold blooded species and plants which may have doomed the
> dinos.  I wasn't there for it.
>
> The Oort cloud hypothesis has been around and is probably one of the
> contributors of the periodic extinctions of which we have
> evidence.  Each one
> seems to take about 80 % of the species and give new ones a
> chance to start.
>
> The Period of time which Axel speaks has been the subject of considerable
> debate in certain scientific circles.  We are about due for
> another impact,
> according to some, give or take 2 or 3 million years.
>
> Walt
>
> Axel Emmermann wrote:
>
> > There's an interesting and plausible theory about the
> periodicity at which
> > earth is exposed to impacting Oort cloud objects.
> > The spiral arms of our galaxy "the Milky Way" are not rotating
> at the same
> > speed as the galaxy itself. In fact, those spiral arms are not
> really "real"
> > in the sense of lasting objects... They are wavefronts of
> intense starbirth
> > that propagate  through the galaxy in a circular way. Our solar system
> > doesn't "surf" those waves but is overtaken by one every sixty
> million years
> > or so... The wavefront that overtakes us is seething with
> supermassive and
> > hot young stars. Stars there that are much closer together than outside
> > dense front of the the spiral arms.
> >
> > As the massive stars pass by the solar system, their mighty
> gravitational
> > pull disturbes the Oort cloud. At that time a yet unknow number
> of comets
> > starts to fall inwards... They keep falling for millions of
> years until they
> > reach the inner parts of our system. Earth is a tiny object to hit, seen
> > from the Oort cloud. But there may be a LOT of them underway
> already. It all
> > depends on how shaky the ride through the galaxy's spiral arm
> really was.
> > If we passed through a quit region then nothing much will
> happen. However,
> > if we skimmed along a cluster of supergiants of 20 or more
> sunmasses each...
> > well, we may get treated to a buckshot or two of comets.
> >
> > Now is about the time to expect those comets since the last
> extinction wave
> > is about 60 million years ago.
> >
> > Axel Emmermann
> > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> >             B-2640 Mortsel
> >             Belgium
> > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > E-mail:
> > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > Visit our homepage:
> > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > My own web-site:
> > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:15 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
> >
> > | May be they are actually thinking that it may have been a
> multiple comet
> > hit
> > | like the one that hit Jupiter a few years ago. I got the
> impression that
> > | this was tied to the Nemesis theorey since they mentioned 'something'
> > | causing a disturbance in the Oort Cloud.
> > |
> > | I couldn't get thru to the website either, not even the root. The site
> > must
> > | be down.
> > |
> > | I tried a google search and found an interesting article on
> the Triassic
> > | extinctions and quite a bit on conodonts and impact craters:
> > |
> > |
> >
> http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/1998/h
> eadln-0327
> > 98.html
> > |
> > | Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't
> find a good hit
> > | anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be
> > non-north
> > | american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is
> supposed to
> > be
> > | newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:
> > |
> > | http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm
> > |
> > | "From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are
> known. The best
> > | known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated
> diameter 180 to
> > 300
> > | km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk
> craters in
> > the
> > | Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer
> respectively.
> > The
> > | Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer,
> the Eagle
> > | Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and
> the Upheaval
> > Dome
> > | in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters
> are estimated
> > | to be 65 million years old."
> > |
> > | I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they
> refined the dating
> > to
> > | gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the
> error bands.
> > |
> > | Bryan
> > |
> > | > -----Original Message-----
> > | >
> > | > J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > | > >
> > | > > I thought some of you would find this interesting, there
> is a possible
> > | > > second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> > | > >
> > | > > http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> > | > >
> > | > > Bryan
> > | > >
> > | >
> > | > The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less
> than healthy
> > | > from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
> > | > webpage tonight.
> > | >
> > | > BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
> > | > crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.
> > | > _______________________________________________
> > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > | > Subscription Services:
> > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |
> > | _______________________________________________
> > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > | Subscription Services:
> > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > |
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 10:53:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocksndogs)
Date: Sat Sep 14 09:53:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem and Mineral show and sale information
Message-ID: <002801c25c0f$08d2e920$05dc143f@computer>

My name is Kathy Fronk.  Dealer chair for the Central Illinois Gem and =
Mineral Club.  Our Club show is being held on May 10-11, 2003 at the =
Civic Center in downtown Decatur, Illinois.  I am looking for swappers =
for our swap area.  Anything related to the rock hobby is acceptable. =
Rocks, minerals, books, equipment, stone jewelry.  No beanie babies and =
such.  Swap tables are $20.00 for the weekend.  It's an easy way to =
trade off your stuff for stuff you don't have.  We plan to use swapper =
dollars (Like the Cincinatti, Ohio show) which will be accepted by all =
the professional dealers at our show.

I am also looking for some demonstrators.  We want to keep the hobby =
alive, and one way to do that is to introduce the public to new things.  =
Demonstrators are the heart of any good show.  Show the people what rock =
hounds can do!  Beaders, faceters, lapidaries, If you work with your =
stone, and you are willing to be a show off for two days- we want you =
!!!

You can contact me through the club website at -  www.cigmc.com     Keep =
on rock'n !!!


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 11:02:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sat Sep 14 10:02:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] OT but very important
In-Reply-To: <20020914105728.1738.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: 

 For any of you running Windows XP out there you need to instantly do one of
two things:

1) Get the Windows  XP service pack 1 at 135 MB You can find that on the MS
website.

2) Go to Steven Gibson's site and get his free utility ( 35 kb) that blocks
the hole.

http://grc.com/xpdite/xpdite.htm

There is a very major security hole that has been known to security experts
for awhile, either of the above will patch the hole. THe people who knew
about had been keeping quiet about it but now the information has
escaped.The hole allows your hard drive to be erased just by clicking on  a
malicious URL. Now that it is known to the hacking community the danger is
great. So don't wait. I usually wait for a week or two to install a service
pack but not this time.

Bryan



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 11:06:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 10:06:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References:  
Message-ID: <3D836C40.8714D141@earthlink.net>

Hi Lanny

Did not make it this year.  Hope it is good and you are having fun.  It is
difficult to sort out the data from disparate sources.

How is the show?  I am oly about 6 hours away instead of 2 days, now.  Maybe next
year, I will make the effort and get up there.  I am too busy getting ready for
the Tanzania trip in a couple of weeks.

See you later, Lanny.

In case any of you do not know, Lanny puts out a great newsletter.  I would
suggest you contact him for information on it and subscribe. I do and enjoy it
every month.

Walt

Lanny wrote:

> Walt, Henry and others,
>
> Greetings from the Denver Shows! You should be here! Not on the Internet
> kicking around Mas/Mils for the umpteenth time.
>
> As one who did some of the data input to Mas/Mils (a tiny amount for a
> couple months many years ago) let me explain again the the data was taken
> from available data, by available hired hands (including high school kids).
> Remember that data includes all kinds of information from any available
> source -- including a lot of questionable data (USGS, USBM, state surveys,
> theses, etc.) that often had vague descriptions as "across the canyon" or
> "on the north side of Geez I'm Lost Peak." Most of it was not field checked
> as part of the project, generally it was only field checked when that could
> be done as part of another project, such as the preparation of the MLS
> series, Wilderness studies, etc.
>
> I defy anyone on this list to take the available data for the Quartz Hill
> District, Montana and come up with accurate locations for the mines there
> -- this includes the USGS topo maps and Bulletins. I've been trying for two
> years, and I can tell where there are mines on the ground, but not which
> ones fit which names for 3/4 of them. Please, someone take my challenge and
> prove me and the USBM imcompetent. (I may look stupid then, but at least I
> would know which mine is which after you've done it.)
>
> As a contrary point, so far I've found the data to be mostly accurate
> (within it's error factor at least - as given in the database).
>
> Regards,
>
> Lanny
>
> >Henry
> >
> >When we used satellite photos, we were always told to "ground proof" the info
> >before issuing it as edict.  I guess this shows how important that is.
> >
> >Thanks for the input.
> >
> >Walt
> >
> >Henry Barwood wrote:
> >
> >> The problem originates in the concept of getting a "product" out the door as
> >> fast as you can to justify your continued existence. This is part of the
> >> reason I'm no longer with any "geological survey". In the good old days
> >> people actually checked data themselves.
> >>
> >> Henry Barwood
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 14:42:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 13:42:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
References: 
Message-ID: <3D839EED.76FC476B@earthlink.net>

Sounds like the K/T stuff from the Deccan Traps.  Lots of lava and lots of
gasses.

W

J Bryan Kramer wrote:

> The P/T extinctions are supposed to be associated with the Siberian Traps
> and some impacts. The Siberian Traps put out enough lava to cover all the
> land surface on earth 3 meters deep IIRC.
>
> Bryan
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > There are some theories that the Dinos were wiped out by a combo
> > of the Deccan
> > Traps eruption, if that is the word for it, and the impact of the
> > meteorite at
> > Chixulub.  The two may contain enough raw material to change the
> > albedo of the
> > earth sufficiently to lower the temp to kill many species and
> > create a darkness
> > that would doom cold blooded species and plants which may have doomed the
> > dinos.  I wasn't there for it.
> >
> > The Oort cloud hypothesis has been around and is probably one of the
> > contributors of the periodic extinctions of which we have
> > evidence.  Each one
> > seems to take about 80 % of the species and give new ones a
> > chance to start.
> >
> > The Period of time which Axel speaks has been the subject of considerable
> > debate in certain scientific circles.  We are about due for
> > another impact,
> > according to some, give or take 2 or 3 million years.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> >
> > > There's an interesting and plausible theory about the
> > periodicity at which
> > > earth is exposed to impacting Oort cloud objects.
> > > The spiral arms of our galaxy "the Milky Way" are not rotating
> > at the same
> > > speed as the galaxy itself. In fact, those spiral arms are not
> > really "real"
> > > in the sense of lasting objects... They are wavefronts of
> > intense starbirth
> > > that propagate  through the galaxy in a circular way. Our solar system
> > > doesn't "surf" those waves but is overtaken by one every sixty
> > million years
> > > or so... The wavefront that overtakes us is seething with
> > supermassive and
> > > hot young stars. Stars there that are much closer together than outside
> > > dense front of the the spiral arms.
> > >
> > > As the massive stars pass by the solar system, their mighty
> > gravitational
> > > pull disturbes the Oort cloud. At that time a yet unknow number
> > of comets
> > > starts to fall inwards... They keep falling for millions of
> > years until they
> > > reach the inner parts of our system. Earth is a tiny object to hit, seen
> > > from the Oort cloud. But there may be a LOT of them underway
> > already. It all
> > > depends on how shaky the ride through the galaxy's spiral arm
> > really was.
> > > If we passed through a quit region then nothing much will
> > happen. However,
> > > if we skimmed along a cluster of supergiants of 20 or more
> > sunmasses each...
> > > well, we may get treated to a buckshot or two of comets.
> > >
> > > Now is about the time to expect those comets since the last
> > extinction wave
> > > is about 60 million years ago.
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann
> > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > >             Belgium
> > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > E-mail:
> > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > Visit our homepage:
> > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > My own web-site:
> > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:15 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Second dino killer?
> > >
> > > | May be they are actually thinking that it may have been a
> > multiple comet
> > > hit
> > > | like the one that hit Jupiter a few years ago. I got the
> > impression that
> > > | this was tied to the Nemesis theorey since they mentioned 'something'
> > > | causing a disturbance in the Oort Cloud.
> > > |
> > > | I couldn't get thru to the website either, not even the root. The site
> > > must
> > > | be down.
> > > |
> > > | I tried a google search and found an interesting article on
> > the Triassic
> > > | extinctions and quite a bit on conodonts and impact craters:
> > > |
> > > |
> > >
> > http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/1998/h
> > eadln-0327
> > > 98.html
> > > |
> > > | Sky and Telescope seems to have a 'scoop' since I couldn't
> > find a good hit
> > > | anywhere else, I did find another interesting site, it seems to be
> > > non-north
> > > | american ( I assume that from the spelling of what I guess is
> > supposed to
> > > be
> > > | newsdesk) but is in english and is fairly techinical:
> > > |
> > > | http://www.dinodata.net/Newdesuk.htm
> > > |
> > > | "From the end of the Cretaceous several impact craters are
> > known. The best
> > > | known is the Chixulub crater in Mexico with an estimated
> > diameter 180 to
> > > 300
> > > | km, other smaller K/T impactcraters are the Gusev and Kamensk
> > craters in
> > > the
> > > | Ukraine with a diameter of 3,5 kilometer and 25 kilometer
> > respectively.
> > > The
> > > | Beyenchime crater of Russia with a diameter of 7.5 kilometer,
> > the Eagle
> > > | Butte crater in Canada with a diameter of 19 kilometer and
> > the Upheaval
> > > Dome
> > > | in the USA with a diameter of 5 kilometer. All these craters
> > are estimated
> > > | to be 65 million years old."
> > > |
> > > | I think the S&T article was about the Kamensk and they
> > refined the dating
> > > to
> > > | gets the dates of it and Chixulub to correspond within the
> > error bands.
> > > |
> > > | Bryan
> > > |
> > > | > -----Original Message-----
> > > | >
> > > | > J Bryan Kramer wrote:
> > > | > >
> > > | > > I thought some of you would find this interesting, there
> > is a possible
> > > | > > second dinosaur killer crater that has been found in the Ukraine:
> > > | > >
> > > | > > http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_738_1.asp
> > > | > >
> > > | > > Bryan
> > > | > >
> > > | >
> > > | > The word seems to have leaked out and their server is less
> > than healthy
> > > | > from the overwhelming response for information; good luck seeing the
> > > | > webpage tonight.
> > > | >
> > > | > BTW, isn't this #3? I seem to remember the recently found North Sea
> > > | > crater was tentatively dated to the K/T boundary.
> > > | > _______________________________________________
> > > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | > Subscription Services:
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> > > | >
> > > | >
> > > |
> > > |
> > > | _______________________________________________
> > > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | Subscription Services:
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> > > |
> > >
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> >
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 16:29:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Barbara and David Fenstermacher)
Date: Sat Sep 14 15:29:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: <3D813ED4.F33F24AF@att.net>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020914182501.022d0c90@mail.mindspring.com>

Don,
No, have not planned to attend the symposium. Your presentation sounds very 
informative, wish I could have seen it.
Barb



At 09:26 PM 9/12/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Would you happen to be going to the micromounters symposium in Baltimore
>this weekend?  I am giving a brief demo tomorrow night on coupling GPS
>with topographic map programs.
>
>What kind of feedback are you looking for?
>
>Don
>
>
>Barbara and David Fenstermacher wrote:
> >
> > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning
> > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > Found this website for general info:
> > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > but would like to hear from users.
> > Barb
> >
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 16:37:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Barbara and David Fenstermacher)
Date: Sat Sep 14 15:37:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: <3D814DAC.C1920F78@mindspring.com>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183217.022d4ec0@mail.mindspring.com>

Appreciate your input on BM database as well as "12 channel or better" tip. 
Haven't searched the market on these, runs the gamut as far as 
price/specifications.
Barb



At 08:30 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Barb, GPS is the only way to go and the only way locations should be
>described is by lat/long or UTM if you prefer.  When you consider that
>some xl and fossil locations are a spot that may only be a few square
>feet GPS can certainly save a great deal of hunting around.  If you like
>to research mines and the minerals they produced you can find many of
>them by using the Bureau of Mines MasMils database [even though a great
>many of their locations are erroneous].  The mines are listed by both
>lat/long and utm.  If you are mapping your locations as I do with the
>DeLorme topos, you just key in the lat/long on the map, print it out or
>take your laptop with you, and set your gps to go to that location.
>Word of warning - do not get an older unit as they are slow and
>unreliable.  Buy a 12 channel unit or better.  Lots of websites about
>GPS - more info than you would ever want to know, but the GPS
>evaluations are worth reviewing! LD
>
>
>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
>multipart/mixed
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/x-vcard
>---
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 16:38:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Barbara and David Fenstermacher)
Date: Sat Sep 14 15:38:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: <003101c25ace$3bd9fda0$43c494d1@dmschmidt>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com>

What kind do you have?
Barb



At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are sometimes
>problems with acquiring satellites.
>
>While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking my friend's
>apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until I was in an
>area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were making it
>difficult for me to locate.
>
>Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but you may also
>run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or with
>sufficient cloud cover.
>
>There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic ones for a
>little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+ that plan
>driving routes and come with city maps of North America and Europe.
>
>All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I myself have
>tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in the Kem Kem
>of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later when he was
>there, based on my coordinates.
>
>For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if you can
>never remember where you parked!!!
>
>:-).
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
>Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
>
>
> > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning
> > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > Found this website for general info:
> > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > but would like to hear from users.
> > Barb
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
>
>
>---
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>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 17:06:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Sat Sep 14 16:06:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt>

I have a couple.  I have a Garmin E-trex Venture unit which, for the most
part, works fairly well.  It's fairly basic, but unfortunately isn't
upgradable.  I am in the process of getting a Garmin GPS V, which is closer
to a top of the line unit for Garmin.  Essentially, the major differences
would be:

far larger memory
comes with base maps
city select cd rom
detachable antenna (good for car use)
WAAS capable

for the average person wanting a gps for collecting, you don't need the
majority of these features.  But they are great for city navigation.

Currently, I use a GPS attachment for my PDA as well as a microsoft program
for city navigation.  It would just simply it if I could do the majority of
it with my GPS unit.

The cost difference between these two GPS's  is almost triple.

Check out:

www.garmin.com

Magellan is another GPS manufacturer, although I haven't had any experience
with that parrticular company.

If you type Magellan GPS into Alta Vista, it gives you a bunch of sites that
compare units.  Should tell you all you need to know to make an informed
decision.

Hope this helps.

Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding


> What kind do you have?
> Barb
>
>
>
> At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are sometimes
> >problems with acquiring satellites.
> >
> >While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking my
friend's
> >apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until I was in
an
> >area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were making it
> >difficult for me to locate.
> >
> >Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but you may
also
> >run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or with
> >sufficient cloud cover.
> >
> >There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic ones for a
> >little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+ that plan
> >driving routes and come with city maps of North America and Europe.
> >
> >All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I myself
have
> >tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in the Kem
Kem
> >of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later when he
was
> >there, based on my coordinates.
> >
> >For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if you can
> >never remember where you parked!!!
> >
> >:-).
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
> >Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> >
> >
> > > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning
> > > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > > Found this website for general info:
> > > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > > but would like to hear from users.
> > > Barb
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > >
> >
> >
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> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> >Subscription Services:
> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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> Subscription Services:
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 17:41:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford)
Date: Sat Sep 14 16:41:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] rock polishing ... ooops/help
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020914190434.03271dd0@mail.indy.net>


I want to thank every one for their help and advice on my troubles.  My tumbler
is now working just fine. I hope to have some pretty shineys in a few weeks.

Thanks again

Robbie


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 20:08:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 19:08:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com> <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net>

Michael

I haven't used gps with a PDA.  How do they work? if you have had any
experience with them, tell us.  I am sure we can benefit from your experiences.
Might save us some time and money also.

Thanks
Walt

Michael Schmidt wrote:

> I have a couple.  I have a Garmin E-trex Venture unit which, for the most
> part, works fairly well.  It's fairly basic, but unfortunately isn't
> upgradable.  I am in the process of getting a Garmin GPS V, which is closer
> to a top of the line unit for Garmin.  Essentially, the major differences
> would be:
>
> far larger memory
> comes with base maps
> city select cd rom
> detachable antenna (good for car use)
> WAAS capable
>
> for the average person wanting a gps for collecting, you don't need the
> majority of these features.  But they are great for city navigation.
>
> Currently, I use a GPS attachment for my PDA as well as a microsoft program
> for city navigation.  It would just simply it if I could do the majority of
> it with my GPS unit.
>
> The cost difference between these two GPS's  is almost triple.
>
> Check out:
>
> www.garmin.com
>
> Magellan is another GPS manufacturer, although I haven't had any experience
> with that parrticular company.
>
> If you type Magellan GPS into Alta Vista, it gives you a bunch of sites that
> compare units.  Should tell you all you need to know to make an informed
> decision.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
>
> > What kind do you have?
> > Barb
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > >for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are sometimes
> > >problems with acquiring satellites.
> > >
> > >While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking my
> friend's
> > >apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until I was in
> an
> > >area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were making it
> > >difficult for me to locate.
> > >
> > >Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but you may
> also
> > >run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or with
> > >sufficient cloud cover.
> > >
> > >There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic ones for a
> > >little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+ that plan
> > >driving routes and come with city maps of North America and Europe.
> > >
> > >All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I myself
> have
> > >tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in the Kem
> Kem
> > >of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later when he
> was
> > >there, based on my coordinates.
> > >
> > >For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if you can
> > >never remember where you parked!!!
> > >
> > >:-).
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > >To: 
> > >Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
> > >Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > >
> > >
> > > > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global positioning
> > > > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > > > Found this website for general info:
> > > > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > > > but would like to hear from users.
> > > > Barb
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > Subscription Services:
> > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---
> > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > >Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > >Subscription Services:
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 20:13:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Sat Sep 14 19:13:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com> <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt> <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002501c25c5d$74f19ae0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>

they work fairly well, but they will never take the place of a GPS.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding


> Michael
>
> I haven't used gps with a PDA.  How do they work? if you have had any
> experience with them, tell us.  I am sure we can benefit from your
experiences.
> Might save us some time and money also.
>
> Thanks
> Walt
>
> Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> > I have a couple.  I have a Garmin E-trex Venture unit which, for the
most
> > part, works fairly well.  It's fairly basic, but unfortunately isn't
> > upgradable.  I am in the process of getting a Garmin GPS V, which is
closer
> > to a top of the line unit for Garmin.  Essentially, the major
differences
> > would be:
> >
> > far larger memory
> > comes with base maps
> > city select cd rom
> > detachable antenna (good for car use)
> > WAAS capable
> >
> > for the average person wanting a gps for collecting, you don't need the
> > majority of these features.  But they are great for city navigation.
> >
> > Currently, I use a GPS attachment for my PDA as well as a microsoft
program
> > for city navigation.  It would just simply it if I could do the majority
of
> > it with my GPS unit.
> >
> > The cost difference between these two GPS's  is almost triple.
> >
> > Check out:
> >
> > www.garmin.com
> >
> > Magellan is another GPS manufacturer, although I haven't had any
experience
> > with that parrticular company.
> >
> > If you type Magellan GPS into Alta Vista, it gives you a bunch of sites
that
> > compare units.  Should tell you all you need to know to make an informed
> > decision.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Michael
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> >
> > > What kind do you have?
> > > Barb
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > > >for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are
sometimes
> > > >problems with acquiring satellites.
> > > >
> > > >While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking my
> > friend's
> > > >apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until I
was in
> > an
> > > >area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were making it
> > > >difficult for me to locate.
> > > >
> > > >Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but you
may
> > also
> > > >run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or with
> > > >sufficient cloud cover.
> > > >
> > > >There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic ones
for a
> > > >little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+ that
plan
> > > >driving routes and come with city maps of North America and Europe.
> > > >
> > > >All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I
myself
> > have
> > > >tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in the
Kem
> > Kem
> > > >of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later when
he
> > was
> > > >there, based on my coordinates.
> > > >
> > > >For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if you
can
> > > >never remember where you parked!!!
> > > >
> > > >:-).
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > >To: 
> > > >Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
> > > >Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global
positioning
> > > > > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > > > > Found this website for general info:
> > > > > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > > > > but would like to hear from users.
> > > > > Barb
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > Subscription Services:
> > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > >Subscription Services:
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> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 20:15:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sat Sep 14 19:15:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com> <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt> <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net> <002501c25c5d$74f19ae0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D83ED20.494EDE71@earthlink.net>

Then the idea would be to pass and keep on with what I have?  I think that was
good.  Thanks.

Walt

Michael Schmidt wrote:

> they work fairly well, but they will never take the place of a GPS.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
>
> > Michael
> >
> > I haven't used gps with a PDA.  How do they work? if you have had any
> > experience with them, tell us.  I am sure we can benefit from your
> experiences.
> > Might save us some time and money also.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Walt
> >
> > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > > I have a couple.  I have a Garmin E-trex Venture unit which, for the
> most
> > > part, works fairly well.  It's fairly basic, but unfortunately isn't
> > > upgradable.  I am in the process of getting a Garmin GPS V, which is
> closer
> > > to a top of the line unit for Garmin.  Essentially, the major
> differences
> > > would be:
> > >
> > > far larger memory
> > > comes with base maps
> > > city select cd rom
> > > detachable antenna (good for car use)
> > > WAAS capable
> > >
> > > for the average person wanting a gps for collecting, you don't need the
> > > majority of these features.  But they are great for city navigation.
> > >
> > > Currently, I use a GPS attachment for my PDA as well as a microsoft
> program
> > > for city navigation.  It would just simply it if I could do the majority
> of
> > > it with my GPS unit.
> > >
> > > The cost difference between these two GPS's  is almost triple.
> > >
> > > Check out:
> > >
> > > www.garmin.com
> > >
> > > Magellan is another GPS manufacturer, although I haven't had any
> experience
> > > with that parrticular company.
> > >
> > > If you type Magellan GPS into Alta Vista, it gives you a bunch of sites
> that
> > > compare units.  Should tell you all you need to know to make an informed
> > > decision.
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > >
> > > > What kind do you have?
> > > > Barb
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > >for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are
> sometimes
> > > > >problems with acquiring satellites.
> > > > >
> > > > >While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking my
> > > friend's
> > > > >apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until I
> was in
> > > an
> > > > >area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were making it
> > > > >difficult for me to locate.
> > > > >
> > > > >Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but you
> may
> > > also
> > > > >run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or with
> > > > >sufficient cloud cover.
> > > > >
> > > > >There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic ones
> for a
> > > > >little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+ that
> plan
> > > > >driving routes and come with city maps of North America and Europe.
> > > > >
> > > > >All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I
> myself
> > > have
> > > > >tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in the
> Kem
> > > Kem
> > > > >of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later when
> he
> > > was
> > > > >there, based on my coordinates.
> > > > >
> > > > >For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if you
> can
> > > > >never remember where you parked!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >:-).
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > > >To: 
> > > > >Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
> > > > >Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global
> positioning
> > > > > > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > > > > > Found this website for general info:
> > > > > > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > > > > > but would like to hear from users.
> > > > > > Barb
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > > Subscription Services:
> > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---
> > > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > >Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > >Subscription Services:
> > > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > Subscription Services:
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> > > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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> > > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 09/09/2002
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
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>
> ---
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> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 09/09/2002
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 20:31:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Sat Sep 14 19:31:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com> <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt> <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net> <002501c25c5d$74f19ae0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt> <3D83ED20.494EDE71@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005101c25c5f$f9113c20$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>

there is no real reason, other than having a new toy, to put GPS hardware or
software on a PDA.

If you have a GPS that you have a decent memory cache on, you can get all
the maps you would ever want....SOME of which are available for PDA
applications.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding


> Then the idea would be to pass and keep on with what I have?  I think that
was
> good.  Thanks.
>
> Walt
>
> Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> > they work fairly well, but they will never take the place of a GPS.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > I haven't used gps with a PDA.  How do they work? if you have had any
> > > experience with them, tell us.  I am sure we can benefit from your
> > experiences.
> > > Might save us some time and money also.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Walt
> > >
> > > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have a couple.  I have a Garmin E-trex Venture unit which, for the
> > most
> > > > part, works fairly well.  It's fairly basic, but unfortunately isn't
> > > > upgradable.  I am in the process of getting a Garmin GPS V, which is
> > closer
> > > > to a top of the line unit for Garmin.  Essentially, the major
> > differences
> > > > would be:
> > > >
> > > > far larger memory
> > > > comes with base maps
> > > > city select cd rom
> > > > detachable antenna (good for car use)
> > > > WAAS capable
> > > >
> > > > for the average person wanting a gps for collecting, you don't need
the
> > > > majority of these features.  But they are great for city navigation.
> > > >
> > > > Currently, I use a GPS attachment for my PDA as well as a microsoft
> > program
> > > > for city navigation.  It would just simply it if I could do the
majority
> > of
> > > > it with my GPS unit.
> > > >
> > > > The cost difference between these two GPS's  is almost triple.
> > > >
> > > > Check out:
> > > >
> > > > www.garmin.com
> > > >
> > > > Magellan is another GPS manufacturer, although I haven't had any
> > experience
> > > > with that parrticular company.
> > > >
> > > > If you type Magellan GPS into Alta Vista, it gives you a bunch of
sites
> > that
> > > > compare units.  Should tell you all you need to know to make an
informed
> > > > decision.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:37 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > > >
> > > > > What kind do you have?
> > > > > Barb
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > > >for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are
> > sometimes
> > > > > >problems with acquiring satellites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking
my
> > > > friend's
> > > > > >apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until
I
> > was in
> > > > an
> > > > > >area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were
making it
> > > > > >difficult for me to locate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but
you
> > may
> > > > also
> > > > > >run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or
with
> > > > > >sufficient cloud cover.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic
ones
> > for a
> > > > > >little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+
that
> > plan
> > > > > >driving routes and come with city maps of North America and
Europe.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I
> > myself
> > > > have
> > > > > >tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in
the
> > Kem
> > > > Kem
> > > > > >of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later
when
> > he
> > > > was
> > > > > >there, based on my coordinates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if
you
> > can
> > > > > >never remember where you parked!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >:-).
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > > > >To: 
> > > > > >Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
> > > > > >Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global
> > positioning
> > > > > > > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > > > > > > Found this website for general info:
> > > > > > > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > > > > > > but would like to hear from users.
> > > > > > > Barb
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > > > Subscription Services:
> > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >---
> > > > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > > > >Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 21/08/2002
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > >Subscription Services:
> > > > > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > Subscription Services:
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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 21:16:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM)
Date: Sat Sep 14 20:16:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <28.2c7cfcf8.2ab3886c@aol.com> <3D82524E.99140010@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D83FBF1.5C04FB6A@cox.net>

About "old timers, etc.." some two or three years ago, I was on a field
trip headed by Michael Peterson. We were at our base camp and Michael
was reading from a source book for the area written in 1906. The index
alone was fascinating. He was reading the markers for mines known to be
in that area. As he read, we began to look for delineating points as
mentioned within the text. Taking into consideration the passage of 90
plus years, we were able to find specific markers, and yes they were
still identifiable.

Several members of this list were on that field trip and can attest to
the above. There were a few more books from the early 1900's and there
was value in each one of them.

There is much to be said for GPS, etc. but too many rockhounds special
digging grounds are now 6 feet underground with them because they were
not appreciated.

Michael Peterson realized the value in these old books, and "Old
Timers." Too many see them as doddering and boring.
Teresa


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 22:00:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny)
Date: Sat Sep 14 21:00:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
In-Reply-To: <3D836C40.8714D141@earthlink.net>
References: 
 
Message-ID: 

Hi Walt,

Thanks for the kind words.

So close, yet you aren't here, too bad. The shows are the usual good time
with lots of great  minerals to see. Things are kind of slow though, there
seems too be a shortage of buyers. The Club show appears to be loaded with
people, but dealers are complaining that sales are low. In the Holiday Inn,
the hallways are often empty. Today was dismal for sales for everyone I
talked too.

Other than that, there are tons of minerals, lots of great people to talk
minerals with and a good time. There are no new finds of major proportions.
Great Basin Minerals has a small selection of lorandite from Mercur, Utah.
The largest was a lovely terminated blocky crystal in great condition about
3 cm across! Not bad for a mineral otherwise only known in cleavages and
micro crystals. Dave Bunk and Dennis Beals have these really nice, cute!,
lustrous quartz scepters from the Lilliana Mine, Chihuahua, up to about 3
cm long, transparent, some amethystine. Collector's Edge has some nice
orange wulfenites from their mining at the Red Cloud --finally, Pat Haynes
had bought an old stash from the '60s and '70s and has material from many
of the famous Arizona localities, DanWeinrich has a small selection of
incredible large fans of kermesite (blades to at least 10 cm long!) from
China, and there are a few more things.

Glad you got the Tanzania trip going. Hope it's great!

Lanny


>Hi Lanny
>
>Did not make it this year.  Hope it is good and you are having fun.  It is
>difficult to sort out the data from disparate sources.
>
>How is the show?  I am oly about 6 hours away instead of 2 days, now.
>Maybe next
>year, I will make the effort and get up there.  I am too busy getting
>ready for
>the Tanzania trip in a couple of weeks.
>
>See you later, Lanny.
>
>In case any of you do not know, Lanny puts out a great newsletter.  I would
>suggest you contact him for information on it and subscribe. I do and enjoy it
>every month.
>
>Walt
>
>Lanny wrote:
>
>> Walt, Henry and others,
>>
>> Greetings from the Denver Shows! You should be here! Not on the Internet
>> kicking around Mas/Mils for the umpteenth time.
>>...



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 14 22:00:29 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny)
Date: Sat Sep 14 21:00:29 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: <005101c25c5f$f9113c20$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com>
 <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt>
 <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net>
 <002501c25c5d$74f19ae0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
 <3D83ED20.494EDE71@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: 

Walt,

Maybe with a PDA (small screen and all), but with my Mac, GPSy software and
a cable to my Garmin, I can have real time locations on the USGS
topographic DRGs (7 1/2 min. quads) and actually have a map at a scale you
can really see where you are in the field.

Works great. I wouldn't bother with the PDA.

Lanny


>there is no real reason, other than having a new toy, to put GPS hardware or
>software on a PDA.
>
>If you have a GPS that you have a decent memory cache on, you can get all
>the maps you would ever want....SOME of which are available for PDA
>applications.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
>To: 
>Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:14 PM
>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
>
>
>> Then the idea would be to pass and keep on with what I have?  I think that
>was
>> good.  Thanks.
>>
>> Walt
>>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 07:21:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Flannigan)
Date: Sun Sep 15 06:21:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Too Many Replies
References: <20020912003701.4413.15615.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <3D848941.AAF3755@earthlink.net>

Would you guys mind cutting off some of the old replies on
these e-mails?  Just a suggestion.


Mike Flannigan


> From: "Michael Schmidt" 
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas   dinosaur's footpr int
> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:14:50 -0600
> Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
>
> hey Walt, why don't you watch it with the ethnic slurs?
>
> I don't think German's apprecaite being called Krauts anymore than Chinese
> people would appreciate what people sometimes call them.
>
> Make sense to you?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away Texas
> dinosaur's footpr int
>
> > Great  stuff, No wonder the friggen krauts,  wanted to go there.  Yeah,
> Herr
> > schnitzsel and group passed over a lot of ground that had important stuff.
> They
> > were very interested in  the coal and a way to get to the coast.  Doubt if
> they
> > ever got to the minerals and stuff like we do.
> >
> > Good stuff Axel.  Hope the Krauts never come your way again.  They are a
> shifty
> > lot those guys.  Gotta watch them.  We made the mistake in WW1 of letting
> them
> > off and I guess we let them off in ww2 the same way.  Let's hope they
> learned
> > their lesson.  Not all Germans, are the object of my ire, only a select
> few who
> > are the neo Nazi types.  You know the type.  Hate mongers, dumkopfs, and
> such.
> > Control freaks, people who can't stand to let others do their thing.  Need
> I
> > say more.  That is enough commentary.  Glad this list is free from those
> > types.  Glad to see the great stuff you have.  It is good that you can get
> to
> > things like that.
> >
> > How long and how wide in KMs is Belgium?
> >
> > The Volcanic pipe, anything else in the porphyry?  Often the grains are
> large
> > enough to find some good stuff.  Near Corona there is a 3M quarry.  I have
> been
> > in a couple of times and it has nice stuff. Calcites in veins that are
> > interesting.  Some copper minerals, some micas, fuchsite, green, in
> pockets,
> > some tin in veins as cassitterite and other stuff. Nice large xls in
> places.
> > Not too vuggy,but often enough.  I was good friends with the geologist
> there.
> > He and I would go look on the weekends.  Nice guy.  German, too, come to
> think
> > of it.  Herman Schmidt.  One of the nicest guys there ever was. Good
> geologist
> > and good collector. Has a great eye.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Axel Emmermann wrote:
> >
> > > A complete overview is beyond my knowledge but we have some stuff worth
> > > collecting.
> > > The Northern part of Belgium is as flat as Holland. But the southern
> half
> > > is... well, you guys called it "The Bulge" in WW2.
> > > I'm into fluorescent minerals so I know only some very basic
> localities...
> > > mostly quarries with limestone and barite. Some nice fluorescing calcite
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae011.html, barite
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae008.html there. At one quarry there
> seems
> > > to have been found kutnohorite (strong red fl. SW) but there's still
> some
> > > discussion whether it really is kutnohorite. IR spectroscopy confirms it
> but
> > > rhodochrosite and manganoan calcite are a confusing bunch...
> > > Calcite we have plenty of... crystals , mammilar
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae14_19.html or stalactitic...
> > > One of my best photo's is of a Belgian specimen. Aragonite needles on a
> > > calcite matrix... you just have to see it
> > > http://www.minerant.org/photoD/ae009.html ... Neat, no?
> > >
> > > We also have an volcanic crater pipe which is quarries for porphyry.
> Smal
> > > but nice epidote is found there.
> > >
> > > Some phosphate minerals were found during excavations near a channel in
> > > Bihain: Wavellite, Vantasselite, stuff like that...
> > >
> > > The well know gypsum from the clay in the Nothern part....
> > >
> > > Nice sulphis minerals (millerite, marcassite, pyrite) in the dumps of
> the
> > > old coalmines.
> > >
> > > Fluorite at Seilles, fluoresces both red and blue... sometimes both
> colors
> > > on one specimen.
> > >
> > > We also have the "Eldorado" for the slag mineral collector: Sclaigneaux.
> > > Ettringite on aragonite (try photograph that!)
> > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ettringite.htm
> > > Suzannite or perhaps anglesite, we're not sure anymore, covered with
> > > goethite http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/anglesie.htm
> > >
> > > Better take a look for yourself: I did the photography for a CD-ROM on
> the
> > > subject http://user.online.be/rdn/website.htm (choose "mineralogy" for
> the
> > > pics)
> > >
> > > Oooops, it's bedtime already...
> > >
> > > See you tomorrow
> > >
> > > Axel
> > >
> > > Axel Emmermann
> > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > >             Belgium
> > > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > E-mail:
> > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > Visit our homepage:
> > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > My own web-site:
> > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> Texas
> > > dinosaur's footpr int
> > >
> > > | I have never been to Europe.  Every other continent but.  Flew over it
> a
> > > few
> > > | times, however.  I have always thought of Belgium as one  of the "Low
> > > | Countries" and thought of it as rather low in relief and rather flat,
> > > similar
> > > | to the Netherlands.  Then, I guess that in the borderlands with
> France,you
> > > get
> > > | near to the Saar, don't you?
> > > |
> > > | Lots of mineralization???  Tell us more of the topography and type fo
> > > materials
> > > | you find.
> > > |
> > > | Walt
> > > |
> > > | Axel Emmermann wrote:
> > > |
> > > | > Hello Horst
> > > | >
> > > | > 61 type localities for more than 1.100.000 square Km?
> > > | > That's 0.0000554 TL/squareKm.
> > > | > We have 16 TL an Belgium has 32545 square Km... Thats 8.87 times as
> > > much.
> > > | > So the mighty kingdom of Belgium wins again!
> > > | >
> > > | > Some of my club's members are currently in Namibia collecting the
> > > mineram
> > > | > treasures that God threw around in his anger. ;-)))))
> > > | > Say hello from me if you meet them, will you?
> > > | >
> > > | > Best
> > > | >
> > > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > | >             Belgium
> > > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > | > E-mail:
> > > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > | > My own web-site:
> > > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > | > From: "horstwindisch" 
> > > | > To: 
> > > | > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:35 PM
> > > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels away
> > > Texas
> > > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > | >
> > > | > | Hi group,
> > > | > |
> > > | > | This population density question reminds me of the time, when I
> was
> > > | > | participating in a tour guide course in the 80's. One assignment
> was
> > > to
> > > | > give
> > > | > | a general overview of our own or neighbouring country. I chose
> South
> > > West
> > > | > | Africa (now called Namibia). Namibia is about just over 1 million
> > > square
> > > | > | kilomteres in size and the polpulation was then 1,1 million, thus
> > > about 1
> > > | > | person per square kilometer. (Today - I stand under correction -
> the
> > > | > | population of Namibia is about 1,6 million).
> > > | > |
> > > | > | Those of you who have visited this country, can well imagine this
> > > piece of
> > > | > | statistic. I was born there, grew up on the farm where the Hardap
> Dam
> > > is
> > > | > | today. My parents made 40 lbs of butter per week during the
> depression
> > > | > | years, just to have a roof over their head and eat corn and meat
> one
> > > day,
> > > | > | meat and corn the next day, without any pay.
> > > | > |
> > > | > | I have been back many times on vacation, have hiked the Fish River
> > > Canyon
> > > | > (a
> > > | > | "mini" Grand Canyon), seven times, carrying 23 kg in my backpack
> and
> > > | > takiing
> > > | > | 4 1/4 days to walk the 86 km.Have just led my fifth "Extended
> Rockhunt
> > > | > Tour"
> > > | > | of Namibia from 1st to 21st April, (21 persons, 12 vehicles),
> visiting
> > > 22
> > > | > | mines and collecting sites.
> > > | > |
> > > | > | Somebody (I have forgotten the author's name) wrote a book on
> Namibia
> > > | > | entitled "The land that God made in anger" - however for me
> > > personally,
> > > | > the
> > > | > | times I have spent in Namibia, with its mineral, scenic and wild
> life
> > > | > | wealth, remains one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
> > > | > |
> > > | > | Horst ---- Original Message -----
> > > | > | From: "Axel Emmermann" 
> > > | > | To: 
> > > | > | Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:46 PM
> > > | > | Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > Texas
> > > | > | dinosaur's footpr int
> > > | > |
> > > | > |
> > > | > | > Hmmm.... can you top this: there are 10 million Belgians living
> on
> > > | > 32.545
> > > | > | > square Km.(about 12.600 square miles, roughly calculated).
> That's
> > > 793
> > > | > | > Belgians per square mile or 307 per square Km.
> > > | > | > This means that if we disperse ourselves evenly over our mighty
> > > kingdom
> > > | > we
> > > | > | > still can spit at each other with a reasonable chance of hitting
> the
> > > | > next
> > > | > | > guy...
> > > | > | > Very unhygienic, don't try this at home people!
> > > | > | > Un fortunately, we also have to store our famous beer-supply so
> > > actually
> > > | > | > Belgium's full and in reality we Belgians are stacked 4 people
> high
> > > | > | between
> > > | > | > the piles of beer barrels.
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Ok, I realize that we need an excuse to at  get on (or at least
> > > NEAR)
> > > | > | > topic... maybe this will do:
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Did you know that we have 0.0012698 type localities per square
> mile
> > > in
> > > | > | > Belgium???
> > > | > | > Here's the list (you can check them out, they're real minerals
> so
> > > we're
> > > | > on
> > > | > | > topic).
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > MINERAL     LOCALITY  DISCOVERY DESCRIPTION REMARKS
> > > | > | > ardennite Salmchateau 1872 von Lasaulx, 1872 synonym :
> dewalquite
> > > | > | > davreuxite Ottré 1850 De Koninck, 1978 -
> > > | > | > delvauxite Berneau 1793 Delvaux, 1838 -
> > > | > | > diadochite Richelle 1879 Césaro, 1885 synonym : destinezite
> > > | > | > fraipontite Moresnet 1883 Césaro, 1883 -
> > > | > | > halloysite Angleur 1826 Berthier, 1826 -
> > > | > | > hopeite Altenberg 1820 Brewster, 1822 -
> > > | > | > koninckite Richelle 1884 Césaro, 1884 see below
> > > | > | > ottrelite Ottré 1809 Damour, 1842 -
> > > | > | > richellite Richelle 1883 Césaro, 1842 -
> > > | > | > viseite Visé 1888 Mélon, 1842 -
> > > | > | > willemite Moresnet 1829 Levy, 1830 -
> > > | > | > drugmanite Richelle 1979 Van Tassel, 1979 -
> > > | > | > vantasselite Bihain 1987 Fransolet, 1987 -
> > > | > | > ferristrunzite Blaton 1987 Peacor, 1987 -
> > > | > | > viaeneite Engis 1996 Kucha et al., 1996 Unstable in air
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Cheers Earl
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > Axel Emmermann
> > > | > | > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
> > > | > | > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
> > > | > | > Home : Lobbesplein 12
> > > | > | >             B-2640 Mortsel
> > > | > | >             Belgium
> > > | > | > Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
> > > | > | > E-mail:
> > > | > | > axel.emmermann@pandora.be
> > > | > | > Visit our homepage:
> > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/index.html
> > > | > | > Bezoek onze web-site:
> > > | > | > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
> > > | > | > My own web-site:
> > > | > | > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
> > > | > | > ----- Original Message -----
> > > | > | > From: "earl verbeek" 
> > > | > | > To: 
> > > | > | > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:22 PM
> > > | > | > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] HoustonChronicle.com - Thief chisels
> away
> > > | > Texas
> > > | > | > dinosaur's footpr int
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > | >
> > > | > | > | >| Hey Axel,
> > > | > | > | >|
> > > | > | > | >| Last I heard there were 260 million Americans.   :-)
> > > | > | > | >|
> > > | > | > | >| Bob
> > > | > | > | >
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > | Well, the actual number is far greater than that, considering
> that
> > > | > | > "America"
> > > | > | > | is not synonymous with the United States, but stretches from
> north
> > > of
> > > | > | > Hudson
> > > | > | > | Bay to the southern tip of Argentina.  Add up the population
> of
> > > all
> > > | > | those
> > > | > | > | nations and you'd have the number of Americans.
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |                                 Cheers-  Earl Verbeek
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > |
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > | > | > | Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > | > | > | http://www.hotmail.com
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | > | _______________________________________________
> > > | > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | > | > | Subscription Services:
> > > | > | > | http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > | > | > |
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | >
> > > | > | > _______________________________________________
> > > | > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | > | > Subscription Services:
> > > | > | > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > | > | >
> > > | > |
> > > | > |
> > > | > | _______________________________________________
> > > | > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | > | WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | > | Subscription Services:
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> > > | > |
> > > | > |
> > > | >
> > > | > _______________________________________________
> > > | > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > | > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > | > Subscription Services:
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> > > |
> > > | _______________________________________________
> > > | Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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> > > | Subscription Services:
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> > > |
> > > |
> > >
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> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > Subscription Services:
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 08:30:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 15 07:30:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com> <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt> <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net> <002501c25c5d$74f19ae0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt> <3D83ED20.494EDE71@earthlink.net> <005101c25c5f$f9113c20$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D84995A.2D6EFF28@earthlink.net>

Toys and boys, the cost of which deems their importance.  GPS, trucks, metal
detectors, etc.  Yeah, I am a Gadget freak.  Love new stuff, but bugetary
constraints keep us in check..   The sign on the bumper said, " he who dies
with the most toys wins."  The other," The difference between men and boys is
simply the price of the toys".
W

Michael Schmidt wrote:

> there is no real reason, other than having a new toy, to put GPS hardware or
> software on a PDA.
>
> If you have a GPS that you have a decent memory cache on, you can get all
> the maps you would ever want....SOME of which are available for PDA
> applications.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
>
> > Then the idea would be to pass and keep on with what I have?  I think that
> was
> > good.  Thanks.
> >
> > Walt
> >
> > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > > they work fairly well, but they will never take the place of a GPS.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:08 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > I haven't used gps with a PDA.  How do they work? if you have had any
> > > > experience with them, tell us.  I am sure we can benefit from your
> > > experiences.
> > > > Might save us some time and money also.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Walt
> > > >
> > > > Michael Schmidt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have a couple.  I have a Garmin E-trex Venture unit which, for the
> > > most
> > > > > part, works fairly well.  It's fairly basic, but unfortunately isn't
> > > > > upgradable.  I am in the process of getting a Garmin GPS V, which is
> > > closer
> > > > > to a top of the line unit for Garmin.  Essentially, the major
> > > differences
> > > > > would be:
> > > > >
> > > > > far larger memory
> > > > > comes with base maps
> > > > > city select cd rom
> > > > > detachable antenna (good for car use)
> > > > > WAAS capable
> > > > >
> > > > > for the average person wanting a gps for collecting, you don't need
> the
> > > > > majority of these features.  But they are great for city navigation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently, I use a GPS attachment for my PDA as well as a microsoft
> > > program
> > > > > for city navigation.  It would just simply it if I could do the
> majority
> > > of
> > > > > it with my GPS unit.
> > > > >
> > > > > The cost difference between these two GPS's  is almost triple.
> > > > >
> > > > > Check out:
> > > > >
> > > > > www.garmin.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Magellan is another GPS manufacturer, although I haven't had any
> > > experience
> > > > > with that parrticular company.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you type Magellan GPS into Alta Vista, it gives you a bunch of
> sites
> > > that
> > > > > compare units.  Should tell you all you need to know to make an
> informed
> > > > > decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps.
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 4:37 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > > > >
> > > > > > What kind do you have?
> > > > > > Barb
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 08:35 PM 9/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > > > > > >for the most part, GPS's work quite well, although there are
> > > sometimes
> > > > > > >problems with acquiring satellites.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >While in Paris this summer, I had a very difficult time marking
> my
> > > > > friend's
> > > > > > >apartment as a waypoint.  I had to move all over the place until
> I
> > > was in
> > > > > an
> > > > > > >area with a big enough view of the sky.  The buildings were
> making it
> > > > > > >difficult for me to locate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Now, most people won't use their GPS's for city navigation, but
> you
> > > may
> > > > > also
> > > > > > >run into this problem if you are in heavily wooded areas.  Or
> with
> > > > > > >sufficient cloud cover.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >There are a lot of different types of GPS systems.  Some basic
> ones
> > > for a
> > > > > > >little over $100, right up to some very advanced ones for $500+
> that
> > > plan
> > > > > > >driving routes and come with city maps of North America and
> Europe.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >All in all, the vast majority of the time they workvery well.  I
> > > myself
> > > > > have
> > > > > > >tested the accuracy of mine by planting an item at a location in
> the
> > > Kem
> > > > > Kem
> > > > > > >of Morocco, and having a friend locate that item 2 years later
> when
> > > he
> > > > > was
> > > > > > >there, based on my coordinates.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >For the average rockhound, it's a very useful item, especially if
> you
> > > can
> > > > > > >never remember where you parked!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >:-).
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Barbara and David Fenstermacher" 
> > > > > > >To: 
> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:14 PM
> > > > > > >Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Would like some feedback from those who have used a global
> > > positioning
> > > > > > > > system to find their way to field trip locations.
> > > > > > > > Found this website for general info:
> > > > > > > > http://www.aero.org/publications/GPSPRIMER/index.html
> > > > > > > > but would like to hear from users.
> > > > > > > > Barb
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > > > > > > > Subscription Services:
> > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >_______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 08:44:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 15 07:44:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <28.2c7cfcf8.2ab3886c@aol.com> <3D82524E.99140010@earthlink.net> <3D83FBF1.5C04FB6A@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D849CAE.965075A4@earthlink.net>

Just before I left CA, Michael came down from Sac to pick up a collection
of old and relatively new mining and information books that were excess.
MIchael is like a KID in a candy store with anything like that.  He is
really a nice guy. He and his wife Joyce spend several weeks in CChina and
he came home with a lot of neat rocks including some really pretty blue
sapphires. DEEP blue to cornflower blue.  GOOD stuff.

Michael is high on my list of favorites.

Walt

TAM wrote:

> About "old timers, etc.." some two or three years ago, I was on a field
> trip headed by Michael Peterson. We were at our base camp and Michael
> was reading from a source book for the area written in 1906. The index
> alone was fascinating. He was reading the markers for mines known to be
> in that area. As he read, we began to look for delineating points as
> mentioned within the text. Taking into consideration the passage of 90
> plus years, we were able to find specific markers, and yes they were
> still identifiable.
>
> Several members of this list were on that field trip and can attest to
> the above. There were a few more books from the early 1900's and there
> was value in each one of them.
>
> There is much to be said for GPS, etc. but too many rockhounds special
> digging grounds are now 6 feet underground with them because they were
> not appreciated.
>
> Michael Peterson realized the value in these old books, and "Old
> Timers." Too many see them as doddering and boring.
> Teresa
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 08:59:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 15 07:59:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: 
  
Message-ID: <3D84A00F.ADC47910@earthlink.net>

Thanks for the Show Up Date, Lanny.  IF you can say hi to Scott Klein for me,
please do so and tell him to drop  a line.  Nice guy.

If you see Dennis and Dave, tell them I said HI also.  Good folks all.  Good
dealers.

Have heard the same complaint about Denverr from other sources. Not a good sign.
I understand that Costa Mesa left something to be desired dealer wise.

Have a good trip and maybe I will see you all at Tucson next year.

Walt


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 09:01:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 15 08:01:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020912205846.01d60df0@mail.mindspring.com>
 <5.0.2.1.0.20020914183712.022d2ec0@mail.mindspring.com>
 <000d01c25c43$603a6880$9ecc94d1@dmschmidt>
 <3D83EB81.8499390C@earthlink.net>
 <002501c25c5d$74f19ae0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
 <3D83ED20.494EDE71@earthlink.net> 
Message-ID: <3D84A0A2.1CAFE8BB@earthlink.net>

Lanny

I think Michael was right, just another toy.  I will have to get with the
program and up date.  I really don't do that much field work any more.  Have to
get back in the swing of it.  Work got in the way of it.
Retirement may have an advantage.

w

Lanny wrote:

> Walt,
>
> Maybe with a PDA (small screen and all), but with my Mac, GPSy software and
> a cable to my Garmin, I can have real time locations on the USGS
> topographic DRGs (7 1/2 min. quads) and actually have a map at a scale you
> can really see where you are in the field.
>
> Works great. I wouldn't bother with the PDA.
>
> Lanny
>
> >there is no real reason, other than having a new toy, to put GPS hardware or
> >software on a PDA.
> >
> >If you have a GPS that you have a decent memory cache on, you can get all
> >the maps you would ever want....SOME of which are available for PDA
> >applications.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> >To: 
> >Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:14 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
> >
> >
> >> Then the idea would be to pass and keep on with what I have?  I think that
> >was
> >> good.  Thanks.
> >>
> >> Walt
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 09:14:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Sun Sep 15 08:14:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
References: <28.2c7cfcf8.2ab3886c@aol.com> <3D82524E.99140010@earthlink.net> <3D83FBF1.5C04FB6A@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D84A67A.4B7DD561@mindspring.com>

Good point Teresa and absolutely true.  Unfortunately the oldtimers are
a great but overlooked resource.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 09:25:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Flannigan)
Date: Sun Sep 15 08:25:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: MasMils accuracy
References: <20020914204200.10592.17989.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <3D84A64A.1224A694@earthlink.net>

I could be wrong about this, but I think I've noticed that
MASMILS generally goes by T/R locations.  The lat/longs
are calculated from the reported township/range locations, so
if they simply miss the range (report 19W instead of the actual
29W), then the lat long is some 60 miles to the east of the true
location.

Sometimes you can debug the location inaccuracy, but it's
best to scrutinize the T/R location to do so.


Mike Flannigan



> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:05:04 -0600
> From: "Dr. Walter S. Bowser" 
> Organization: Mineral Search Safaris
> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] MasMils accuracy
> Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
>
> Hi Lanny
>
> Did not make it this year.  Hope it is good and you are having fun.  It is
> difficult to sort out the data from disparate sources.
>
> How is the show?  I am oly about 6 hours away instead of 2 days, now.  Maybe next
> year, I will make the effort and get up there.  I am too busy getting ready for
> the Tanzania trip in a couple of weeks.
>
> See you later, Lanny.
>
> In case any of you do not know, Lanny puts out a great newsletter.  I would
> suggest you contact him for information on it and subscribe. I do and enjoy it
> every month.
>
> Walt


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 09:33:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Sun Sep 15 08:33:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] shipping
References: 
Message-ID: <010801c25ccd$42c2a9e0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>

Hi,

Does anyone on the list  know if there is someone on site at Denver that is
able to do international shipping?  I have a friend that needs some shipping
done to Canada, and she can't seem to find her regular shipper.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Michael


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 11:03:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sun Sep 15 10:03:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] shipping
In-Reply-To: <010801c25ccd$42c2a9e0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: 

For Canada I'm sure UPS or FEDEX would work, DHL is a third possibility they
advertise international shipping.

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----

>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone on the list  know if there is someone on site at
> Denver that is
> able to do international shipping?  I have a friend that needs
> some shipping
> done to Canada, and she can't seem to find her regular shipper.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 11:11:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Sun Sep 15 10:11:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] shipping
References: 
Message-ID: <01cb01c25cda$e7d33640$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>

it's sunday......i don't think they are open down there today

i need one of those on site shipping companies
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] shipping


> For Canada I'm sure UPS or FEDEX would work, DHL is a third possibility
they
> advertise international shipping.
>
> Bryan
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Does anyone on the list  know if there is someone on site at
> > Denver that is
> > able to do international shipping?  I have a friend that needs
> > some shipping
> > done to Canada, and she can't seem to find her regular shipper.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 12:24:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly)
Date: Sun Sep 15 11:24:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
References: <189.dcb10e9.2ab102cb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c25ce3$f2121c80$585204d0@jim>

Van,
There is only one Pints Quarry, and Raymond is the correct location. Since
Raymond is quite small- "2 stores and a gas station" was the description I
heard- and only about 4 miles from Waterloo, which is a large town or small
city, someone either missed Raymond in driving through, or chose to use
Waterloo as a more easily located place.
There is another quarry across the road from Pints, but it has been flooded
and fenced off for many years. It, too would be in Raymond.
Jim Daly
Sauktown Sales
Microminerals and mounting supplies
http://www.geocities.com/sauktown/
sauktown@adsnet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:34 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry


> Is there more than one Pints quarry in Iowa?  I have specimens labeled
from
> Pints quarry, Raymond, Black Hawk Co. and from Pints quarry, Waterloo,
Black
> Hawk Co. Same species - marcasite, fluorite, calcite.
>
> Topozone shows a quarry just east of Raymond, but only sandpits in the
City
> of Waterloo.
>
> ?, Van
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 12:52:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Sun Sep 15 11:52:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020915085117.00ab1890@mail.aloha.net>

Hi all,

Can someone recommend a good dictionary of geological terms?  I've got an 
old geology textbook and the Audubon field guide to North American rocks 
and minerals, but they don't have terms like Tessin-habit, Faden-growth, 
epimorph, etc.  Some I can figure out with a regular dictionary or a google 
search,  but I'd really like one handy resource.

Thanks, Kitty


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 13:04:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Sun Sep 15 12:04:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] shipping
In-Reply-To: <01cb01c25cda$e7d33640$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: 

Well if it has to go out today, try this search page:

http://yp106.superpages.com/listings.phtml?SRC=msn&STYPE=S&PG=L&CB=1&C=Air+C
argo&N=&RT=&RS=&RR=&FROM=hierarchy&T=denver&S=CO&R=N&search=Find+It

you might have to paste paste pieces together to get it to work

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
> [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Michael Schmidt
> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 12:11
> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] shipping
>
>
> it's sunday......i don't think they are open down there today
>
> i need one of those on site shipping companies
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J Bryan Kramer" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 11:01 AM
> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] shipping
>
>
> > For Canada I'm sure UPS or FEDEX would work, DHL is a third possibility
> they
> > advertise international shipping.
> >
> > Bryan
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Does anyone on the list  know if there is someone on site at
> > > Denver that is
> > > able to do international shipping?  I have a friend that needs
> > > some shipping
> > > done to Canada, and she can't seem to find her regular shipper.
> > >
> > > Any help would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> >
>
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 15:11:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Sun Sep 15 14:11:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: MasMils accuracy
References: <20020914204200.10592.17989.Mailman@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <3D84A64A.1224A694@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D84FA05.655732F9@mindspring.com>

In order to place locations into a database I believe you need to use a
decimal system. At least that is the way we did it when I was ocean
charting.  That is where the UTM [Universal Transverse Mercator] system
comes in.  You will see the UTM tics on practically all topos and you
can use the system like lat/long by using a metric ruler or a converter
that can be had in map stores.  Then you can set your GPS to read in
UTMs - it would be far more accurate but then look at the data we are
working with!
Please, the locations are bad enough within them trying to use legal
descriptions [T/R] and convert to lat/long.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 15:14:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Sun Sep 15 14:14:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] shipping
References: 
Message-ID: <3D84FAD2.F69F3EF6@mindspring.com>

If the package does not exceed the Post Office parameters or can be
broken into several parcels, I found the PO to be far cheaper than any
of the other outfits, at least to England..


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 15:16:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Sun Sep 15 14:16:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020915085117.00ab1890@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D84FB44.696584D1@mindspring.com>

Kitty, get a copy of the Dictionary of Geological Terms published by the
American Geological Institute.  I am sure they have a website. Regards,
LD


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 18:46:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 15 17:46:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] shipping
References:  <010801c25ccd$42c2a9e0$87cb94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D8529AB.54E4D534@earthlink.net>

Which show is she doing?  UPS will ship.  FedEx will ship, but there may be
cheaper ways to go.  I would suggest she ask at the show offices.  Marty
usually keeps his office in the Holiday Inn.  Someone there might know.

Walt

Michael Schmidt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Does anyone on the list  know if there is someone on site at Denver that is
> able to do international shipping?  I have a friend that needs some shipping
> done to Canada, and she can't seem to find her regular shipper.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 15 19:05:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 15 18:05:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020915085117.00ab1890@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D852E2D.3AFDDC0D@earthlink.net>

Can't do that, but will suggest you check with the Local university book store
in Hilo or some other university or college book store on the Island.

Walt

Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Can someone recommend a good dictionary of geological terms?  I've got an
> old geology textbook and the Audubon field guide to North American rocks
> and minerals, but they don't have terms like Tessin-habit, Faden-growth,
> epimorph, etc.  Some I can figure out with a regular dictionary or a google
> search,  but I'd really like one handy resource.
>
> Thanks, Kitty
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 16 06:50:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua)
Date: Mon Sep 16 05:50:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020915085117.00ab1890@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: 

Dear Kitty,
	I've found an on-line geology glossary based at Iowa State that I
link my intro geology students to. It's URL is:
http://www.ge-at.iastate.edu/courses/Geol_100/gloss.html
	This has most of the basic geological terms, with frequent photos.
However some of your terms you expressed an interest in are quite esoteric
and still wouldn't be on this. The American Geological Institute
http://www.agiweb.org/  publishes a Glossary of Geology, which is sort of
the industry standard. Hit on the "AGI publications" link on that site,
then browse down and click on "dictionaries". They currently have CD-ROM
version for $50.
	Go Twins.
	Best wishes - Bill Cordua

.

>Hi all,
>
>Can someone recommend a good dictionary of geological terms?  I've got an
>old geology textbook and the Audubon field guide to North American rocks
>and minerals, but they don't have terms like Tessin-habit, Faden-growth,
>epimorph, etc.  Some I can figure out with a regular dictionary or a google
>search,  but I'd really like one handy resource.
>
>Thanks, Kitty
>
>
>---
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>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Dr. William S. Cordua
Professor of Geology/Mineralogy
University of Wisconsin - River Falls
410 South Third Street
River Falls, WI 54022
715-425-3139
william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu
"Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 16 13:04:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep 16 12:04:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
Message-ID: 

Great news. Thank.

Dopes the quarry across the road have a name?

Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 16 14:41:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD)
Date: Mon Sep 16 13:41:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] The Cherokee Mine
Message-ID: <022801c25dc1$dd05a080$aa2e1b43@uswest.net>

   I grew up in the general area of the Cherokee Mine and have worked a =
number of mineral and fossil sites in the immediate area.  The DeBeers =
connection is hearsay.  A discovery near Oroville of a serpentinized =
rock bearing a resemblance to the diamond pipes of South Africa led to =
some active mining operations on the part of the United States Diamond =
Mining Company, and a shaft was sunk, which proved not successful.  The =
rock is a hard eclogite differing in character from the kimberlite of =
South Africa.  These observations from the Minerals of California, =
Bulletin 136, Division of Mines, 1948.
    I have worked the tailings directly to the fence boundary at the =
bottom of the placer dugout that is the Cherokee Mine.  It is not a mine =
as such but a huge placer exposure that sent tons of debris down into =
the Sacramento Valley and into the Sacramento River.  Growing up in a =
gold mining family the tales of diamonds at Cherokee caught my =
attention.  My father knew a man who had a "diamond" from Cherokee, and =
I begged for a viewing.  I held the tiny flat glistening thing in my =
hand.  I know now I was not looking at a diamond but probably a complex =
spinel twin or perhaps an axinite crystal.  Years later I was to find an =
axinite vug within sight of the Cherokee Mine, filled with flattened =
gemmy crystals.  Eocene gravels from ancient streambeds are exposed in =
many places in the Sierra foothills and the diamond finds in many of the =
placer mines in the Gold Country appear to be part of these gravel =
deposits...along with gold nuggets and dust.  The 300+ diamond finds at =
Cherokee are not a proven figure, as other minerals such as sapphire and =
chrysoberyl were dubiously reported.
   I have panned the gravels that spread out for over 3 miles at the =
base of the Cherokee mine and have found nothing.  I have found some =
very suitable fossil leaves that have been power washed out of the pink =
and brown Eocene gravels and have made similar discoveries up and down =
the Sierra foothill placer mines. =20
   You are welcome to come and visit this wonderful country and see the =
remains of what is left of Cherokee, but do not expect to find anything =
but photo opportunities.  The huge hole in Table Mountain, the Cherokee =
Mine, is posted and sealed from visitors, as if one may be viewing a =
Victorian crime scene.   I have spent many years with an eye out for the =
elusive California diamond and may still find one, but the complex =
geology of the Sierra foothills is a continuing teacher.

Danny Steward /


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 16 17:51:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Mon Sep 16 16:51:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] plant plates
Message-ID: <001f01c25ddb$f4485fc0$1bcc94d1@dmschmidt>

Hi,

If anyone on the list can help me, I'd appreciate it.

I am looking for some large plates of either leaf or fern fossils.  =
Essentially, I need a few plates in the 2 foot by 3 foot size that are =
VERY cheap, because the shipping is gonna kill me.

I need them to be fairly thin, and weigh no more than about 50 pounds.  =
The fossils must be in good contrast to the matrix, and hopefully be =
fairly consistent in their distribution.

The Pennsylvanian ferns from St. Clair, Pennsylvania made be a good =
choice, but I don't have a direct source for them.

Is there anyone out there than knows of a good leaf or fern suplier that =
would meet the above requirements???

Thanks

Michael


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 00:55:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (horstwindisch)
Date: Mon Sep 16 23:55:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020915085117.00ab1890@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <005d01c25e16$228c32a0$3c3f27c4@horstspc>

Hi,

I have an old edition (published in 1957, reprinted 1966) of  the "Glossary
of Geology and Related Sciences (with Suppplement()" published by the
American Geological Institute in Washington, DC.

I presume a more up to date version is available

Regards,
Horst----- Original Message -----
From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 9:00 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary


> Hi all,
>
> Can someone recommend a good dictionary of geological terms?  I've got an
> old geology textbook and the Audubon field guide to North American rocks
> and minerals, but they don't have terms like Tessin-habit, Faden-growth,
> epimorph, etc.  Some I can figure out with a regular dictionary or a
google
> search,  but I'd really like one handy resource.
>
> Thanks, Kitty
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.384 / Virus Database: 216 - Release Date: 8/21/2002
>
>
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> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 02:52:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Tue Sep 17 01:52:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Lanny,
if i may inquire.. what Mac, GPS and software do you use?
Kris
On Saturday, September 14, 2002, at 08:59 PM, Lanny wrote:

> but with my Mac, GPSy software and
> a cable to my Garmin, I can have real time locations on the USGS
> topographic DRGs (7 1/2 min. quads) and actually have a map at a scale 
> you
> can really see where you are in the field.


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 03:13:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Tue Sep 17 02:13:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA
In-Reply-To: <3D7CBA1C.C82262FF@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <89FC4204-CA1D-11D6-8497-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>

Where to find Ron Winter?
I have been to the Richardson's ranch and a few public claims held by 
the city(?) but only really had good luck at the pay ranch. i hear 
others are nice too but only one fella some time ago told me anything 
about fun and not too popular sites around prinveville and i think he 
was outta burns and gave me bum directions to green obsidian so...
But yes, rhose roads out there can be confusing and frustrating!
Thanks for the info!
Kris
On Monday, September 9, 2002, at 08:11 AM, John Stockwell wrote:

> Kris,
>
> eMail Ron Winter. He has first hand experience with the area. I've seen
> MAGNIFICENT large agates from Pyramid Creek which, as I recall, is a 
> short
> distance east of Greenwater; believe Ron's prospected the creek and he 
> has
> knowledge of other sites in the White River area.
>
> In the Ochocos east of Prineville ALMOST ALL the commonly known thunder
> egg locations, of which there are quite a few, still produce. It's
> navigating the forest roads that constitutes the initial hurdle to 
> finding
> the collecting sites.
>
> John
>
> Kris Murray wrote:
>
>> Apparently, Greenwater, WA, has some huge jasper and agate seams. I 
>> was
>> told that all i needed to remember was FS7220 and 28 mile creek. And I
>> should see jasper boulders all over. After a day of driving around I
>> managed to locate FS7220 but it seems that 28mile creek runs across
>> FS7224, not 7220. Hmmm. And no boulders. Any advice or
>> directions-givers out there in the rockhounding community that could
>> shed some light on the area for me? Even my gazeteer map has a symbol
>> and explanation that the area is known for jasper and thats right on
>> the FS7220 road. sheesh.
>> Thanks,
>> Kris
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>> Subscription Services:
>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 05:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer)
Date: Tue Sep 17 04:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] plant plates
References: <001f01c25ddb$f4485fc0$1bcc94d1@dmschmidt>
Message-ID: <3D87157D.1040509@ptd.net>

Ummmmm,
Good luck,
Living fairly near the St. Clair sites and other fern fossil localities 
such size and specifications weren't "cheap" when they were plentiful, 
and are now nearly depleted as the area is under super fund reclamation. 
 Such pieces if even can be located anymore would probably bring a few 
hundred dollars, as small 8 x12 inches commonly get 15-30 dollars.  As 
they are somewhat fragile and not easily shipped it might be worth your 
while to find someone in the area while planning a trip to say franklin 
n.j. or ogdensburg that is only about 2 1/12 to 3 hours away...

Michael Schmidt wrote:

>Hi,
>
>If anyone on the list can help me, I'd appreciate it.
>
>I am looking for some large plates of either leaf or fern fossils.  Essentially, I need a few plates in the 2 foot by 3 foot size that are VERY cheap, because the shipping is gonna kill me.
>
>I need them to be fairly thin, and weigh no more than about 50 pounds.  The fossils must be in good contrast to the matrix, and hopefully be fairly consistent in their distribution.
>
>The Pennsylvanian ferns from St. Clair, Pennsylvania made be a good choice, but I don't have a direct source for them.
>
>Is there anyone out there than knows of a good leaf or fern suplier that would meet the above requirements???
>
>Thanks
>
>Michael
>
>
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
>  
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 07:56:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sharon Behmann)
Date: Tue Sep 17 06:56:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] CCFMS field trips to Beamsville and Dundas Sep 28 & 29, 2002
In-Reply-To: <000e01c258f8$4a610080$327505d1@jimcarolyn>
Message-ID: 

Hi Jim,

	Could you please register Henry and Sharon Behmann for the field 
trips - we are members of the Burlington Gemini club.

Here's to fine weather and a fresh blast!
Sharon



On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 02:31  PM, Jim and Carolyn Ebsary 
wrote:

> Hello all
>
> The Canadian Federation of Mineralogical Societies (CCFMS) field trips 
> to
> Nelson Agregate Quarry on Sep 28 and LaFarge Quarry on Sep 29 are 
> confirmed.
>
> These field trips are open to CCFMS members in good standing and their
> guests, when they register at jime@iaw.on.ca


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 08:01:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt)
Date: Tue Sep 17 07:01:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] plant plates
References: <001f01c25ddb$f4485fc0$1bcc94d1@dmschmidt> <3D87157D.1040509@ptd.net>
Message-ID: <00ce01c25e52$aae8ade0$30cb94d1@dmschmidt>

i gave st. clair as an example.   like i said....

i don't care if the plates are fern or leaf, or where they are from, so long
as the contrast is there, and the price is cheap, and the supply consistent

the locality is unimportant
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Buffenmyer" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] plant plates


> Ummmmm,
> Good luck,
> Living fairly near the St. Clair sites and other fern fossil localities
> such size and specifications weren't "cheap" when they were plentiful,
> and are now nearly depleted as the area is under super fund reclamation.
>  Such pieces if even can be located anymore would probably bring a few
> hundred dollars, as small 8 x12 inches commonly get 15-30 dollars.  As
> they are somewhat fragile and not easily shipped it might be worth your
> while to find someone in the area while planning a trip to say franklin
> n.j. or ogdensburg that is only about 2 1/12 to 3 hours away...
>
> Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >If anyone on the list can help me, I'd appreciate it.
> >
> >I am looking for some large plates of either leaf or fern fossils.
Essentially, I need a few plates in the 2 foot by 3 foot size that are VERY
cheap, because the shipping is gonna kill me.
> >
> >I need them to be fairly thin, and weigh no more than about 50 pounds.
The fossils must be in good contrast to the matrix, and hopefully be fairly
consistent in their distribution.
> >
> >The Pennsylvanian ferns from St. Clair, Pennsylvania made be a good
choice, but I don't have a direct source for them.
> >
> >Is there anyone out there than knows of a good leaf or fern suplier that
would meet the above requirements???
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >
> >---
> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 14:41:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 17 13:41:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: 

Hi Kris,

Sorry for the delay, didn't get to this until I got back from Denver.

In the field, I use an iBook, Garmin eTrex Summit and GPSy software. Works
great. The cables availabe have DB-9 connectors, so one also needs a
Keyspan USB to PDA adaptor to make the connection--works smoothly.

Most Garmin and other brand GPS units work. The GPSy.com web site has info.

Regards,

Lanny


>Lanny,
>if i may inquire.. what Mac, GPS and software do you use?
>Kris
>On Saturday, September 14, 2002, at 08:59 PM, Lanny wrote:
>
>> but with my Mac, GPSy software and
>> a cable to my Garmin, I can have real time locations on the USGS
>> topographic DRGs (7 1/2 min. quads) and actually have a map at a scale
>> you
>> can really see where you are in the field.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
  Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
  Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
  mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
  and The Mineral Database




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 15:19:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Tue Sep 17 14:19:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Gloria Neves
References: 
Message-ID: <3D879EFD.6F867E6D@mindspring.com>

Gloria, if you are out there please give me a shout.  Larry Dee


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 15:34:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Tue Sep 17 14:34:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <09B0F10F-CA85-11D6-8497-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>

lanny
your guide books have found me treasures of stones and now you have 
helped me again with my GPS dilemma. I though for sure gettinga  GPS to 
sync with my POwerBook was going to be horrendously difficult and 
expensive but wth that GPSy software and that Garmin, its looks plug 
and play, like my mac.
Thanks again
Kris
PS I notice there is fluorite near the town of Stibnite, listed 
somewhere i forget where - maybe just a map of minerals and localities 
with no description. ( i went on a snowmobile tour to stibnite last 
year) and i was wondering if it would be worthwhile to explore around 
some of that valley area where the old town of stibnite used to be? Of 
course it never hurts to look but sometimes one may have a better 
chance than others.
I found a huge boulder of sea-green fluorite out of that Challis, Mine 
in one of your books. and that was just too fun rolling that fat sucker 
out of there. :-) Thanks again!
Sincerely,
Kris
On Tuesday, September 17, 2002, at 01:31 PM, lanny@mineralnews.com 
wrote:

> Hi Kris,
>
> Sorry for the delay, didn't get to this until I got back from Denver.
>
> In the field, I use an iBook, Garmin eTrex Summit and GPSy software. 
> Works
> great. The cables availabe have DB-9 connectors, so one also needs a
> Keyspan USB to PDA adaptor to make the connection--works smoothly.
>
> Most Garmin and other brand GPS units work. The GPSy.com web site has 
> info.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lanny
>
>
>> Lanny,
>> if i may inquire.. what Mac, GPS and software do you use?
>> Kris
>> On Saturday, September 14, 2002, at 08:59 PM, Lanny wrote:
>>
>>> but with my Mac, GPSy software and
>>> a cable to my Garmin, I can have real time locations on the USGS
>>> topographic DRGs (7 1/2 min. quads) and actually have a map at a 
>>> scale
>>> you
>>> can really see where you are in the field.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>> Subscription Services:
>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>   Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
>   Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
>   Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
>   mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
>   and The Mineral Database
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 18:55:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 17 17:55:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020915085117.00ab1890@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917144308.00ab9a10@mail.aloha.net>

At 02:49 AM 9/16/2002, you wrote:

>Dear Kitty,
>         I've found an on-line geology glossary based at Iowa State that I
>link my intro geology students to. It's URL is:
>http://www.ge-at.iastate.edu/courses/Geol_100/gloss.html
>                            The American Geological Institute
>http://www.agiweb.org/  publishes a Glossary of Geology,  
>They currently have a CD-ROM version for $50.
>Bill Cordua


Dear Bill.
         The Iowa State website---and some others I found---are good basic 
sources, but as you noted, don't have the more obscure terms I'm looking 
for.  The book looks perfect, but is too expensive for me at $110 
(amazon.com has it "new or used from $150" ! );  the CD-ROM is a good 
price, but it doesn't run on Windows 2000, and we have Windows ME which 
(my) Bill says is a lighter version of 2000, so it probably wouldn't work 
for us.  Guess I'll have to rely on the library instead of a handy volume 
on our desk!  Or maybe I'll find a used copy some day.

Many thanks for your advice.
Aloha, Kitty



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 19:11:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer)
Date: Tue Sep 17 18:11:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917144308.00ab9a10@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: 

Ah... Windows Me is in no way a light version of Windows 2000. Windows 2000
is a version of Windows NT a wholly different beast, it is the industrial
stength version, so to speak. Me was the last of the Win 9x series and a big
flop too. So not working on NT has nothing to do with working on Me

Bryan

> -----Original Message-----
> Dear Bill.
>          The Iowa State website---and some others I found---are
> good basic
> sources, but as you noted, don't have the more obscure terms I'm looking
> for.  The book looks perfect, but is too expensive for me at $110
> (amazon.com has it "new or used from $150" ! );  the CD-ROM is a good
> price, but it doesn't run on Windows 2000, and we have Windows ME which
> (my) Bill says is a lighter version of 2000, so it probably wouldn't work
> for us.  Guess I'll have to rely on the library instead of a handy volume
> on our desk!  Or maybe I'll find a used copy some day.
>



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 19:34:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 17 18:34:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net>

Hi all,

I just got back from a drive to see the lava going in the ocean.  I wasn't 
too hopeful I'd see a lot because my bad knees prevent much hiking, but I'd 
read that the lava has gone across the road just a short distance from the 
place they allow cars to park, so I thought I could at least see that.  And 
it worked out just like that.  I couldn't see any red lava.  But the sight 
of the road with lava blocking it was impressive.  If you look at 
yesterday's report (Sept. 16) at the usgs site,
(  http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/main.html  )
there's a picture showing the engulfed road.  I walked right up to it, like 
the people in that picture,  and it was still very hot.  I could feel the 
heat radiating from it as if I were standing in front of the open door of a 
huge oven.  I walked toward the place a couple hundred meters away where 
steam was billowing up indicating lava entering the ocean, as far as signs 
and barriers would allow.  This did not provide a view of the actual 
lava.  But I could see clouds of steam rising beyond a sea cliff, and hear 
sputtering, and smell the fumes, and feel hot breeze, and see the wavering 
visual distortion caused by heat rising, and every now and then a wave 
would crash into the cliff spraying white foam into the air.

As I left, a group of about 20 hikers who had emerged from a van from an 
"adventure tour" group marched vigorously right past the "Danger, Access 
Closed" signs and headed uphill away from the ocean.  Apparently they had 
some special permission, or a lot of nerve (or were foolish?) and were 
going up to see the lava coming down the cliffs above.  They may have also 
made it to a better vantage point to see the lava entering the sea.

What I saw was enough, however.  I check the website every day and am 
constantly amazed by the excellent photos, and now I have the memory of the 
smell and sound and feel of being there to go with them.

Aloha, Kitty




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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 19:42:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 17 18:42:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Photo glossary of volcano terms
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917154351.029d5ec0@mail.aloha.net>

Hi again,

While further exploring the usgs site I came across a photo glossary of 
volcano terms at:

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/pglossary.html

It's pretty good, and is helpful not just for someone coming to Hawaii to 
see the lava action, but it helps to understand the comments made by the 
observers and the captions to the pictures on the lava update site.

Aloha, Kitty


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 20:20:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Tue Sep 17 19:20:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D87E2B4.9A4@Tomaszewski.net>

Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I just got back from a drive to see the lava going in the ocean.  I wasn't
> too hopeful I'd see a lot because my bad knees prevent much hiking, but I'd
> read that the lava has gone across the road just a short distance from the
> place they allow cars to park, so I thought I could at least see that.

> What I saw was enough, however.  I check the website every day and am
> constantly amazed by the excellent photos, and now I have the memory of the
> smell and sound and feel of being there to go with them.
> 
> Aloha, Kitty
> 

Thank you Kitty for a wonderful accounting of your experience.

The road being covered by lava got me wondering. I assume lava is not to
be stopped, but can it be controlled? Can a flow be 'steered' as it is
emerging/growing?  I've thought of two possible methods...

	Spray water at one side of the leading edge to harden it, 
	forcing the flow towards the side not cooled. Use the lava to 
	make its own barrier wall.

	Bulldozing earthworks to make 'downhill' a different direction 
	and thereby divert the flow; a cross between a canal and a 
	levee.

...for making the lava snake meander in a choosen direction.

First question, can anyone think of other methods that _might_ work?

Second question, does anyone know what has been tried; and if it worked?

Extra Credit question, is there anything that has worked outside of
Hawaii?

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 20:24:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Brian Doll)
Date: Tue Sep 17 19:24:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA
Message-ID: 

Hi Kris and all:

Ron's website is still up as of today. He has detailed info about washing=
ton collecting sites on it. It is:

www.stonetrails.com

Check it out! There is definately a lot of material to be had at Greenwat=
er, but if you dont know where to look, it is highly unlikely you will fi=
nd much. The Washington State Mineral Counsil has some excellent maps to =
follow. If you go to a local rock show, someone will problably be selling=
 the map packets for $5 - well worth it!

Brian


----- Original Message -----
From: Kris Murray
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 4:16 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA

Where to find Ron Winter?
I have been to the Richardson's ranch and a few public claims held by =20
the city(?) but only really had good luck at the pay ranch. i hear =20
others are nice too but only one fella some time ago told me anything =20
about fun and not too popular sites around prinveville and i think he =20
was outta burns and gave me bum directions to green obsidian so...
But yes, rhose roads out there can be confusing and frustrating!
Thanks for the info!
Kris
On Monday, September 9, 2002, at 08:11 AM, John Stockwell wrote:

> Kris,
>
> eMail Ron Winter. He has first hand experience with the area. I've seen
> MAGNIFICENT large agates from Pyramid Creek which, as I recall, is a =20
> short
> distance east of Greenwater; believe Ron's prospected the creek and he =20
> has
> knowledge of other sites in the White River area.
>
> In the Ochocos east of Prineville ALMOST ALL the commonly known thunder
> egg locations, of which there are quite a few, still produce. It's
> navigating the forest roads that constitutes the initial hurdle to =20
> finding
> the collecting sites.
>
> John
>
> Kris Murray wrote:
>
>> Apparently, Greenwater, WA, has some huge jasper and agate seams. I =20
>> was
>> told that all i needed to remember was FS7220 and 28 mile creek. And I
>> should see jasper boulders all over. After a day of driving around I
>> managed to locate FS7220 but it seems that 28mile creek runs across
>> FS7224, not 7220. Hmmm. And no boulders. Any advice or
>> directions-givers out there in the rockhounding community that could
>> shed some light on the area for me? Even my gazeteer map has a symbol
>> and explanation that the area is known for jasper and thats right on
>> the FS7220 road. sheesh.
>> Thanks,
>> Kris
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>> Subscription Services:
>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds

_______________________________________________
Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhoundsGet more from the Web=
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 17 21:39:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 17 20:39:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
In-Reply-To: <3D87E2B4.9A4@Tomaszewski.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917163407.029d4ab0@mail.aloha.net>

Kreigh Tomaszewski  wrote:

>The road being covered by lava got me wondering. I assume lava is not to
>be stopped, but can it be controlled? Can a flow be 'steered' as it is
>emerging/growing?  I've thought of two possible methods...
>
>         Spray water at one side of the leading edge to harden it,
>         forcing the flow towards the side not cooled. Use the lava to
>         make its own barrier wall.
>
>         Bulldozing earthworks to make 'downhill' a different direction
>         and thereby divert the flow; a cross between a canal and a
>         levee....

Kreigh,

I'm no expert, but I can tell you what I've observed from living in Hawaii 
since 1972:

A lot depends on what kind of flow is involved, whether it is in a tube or 
channel (which will keep the lava hot and liquid longer) or going over open 
ground, and how steep the descent is.  Pahoehoe flows such as covered the 
road here last weekend going over open ground and not very steep, will 
travel at maybe 1/2 mph or less.  An 'a'a flow will usually go even 
slower.  Some flows have been clocked at 6 mph, I believe, which would make 
diverting them harder.

When lava from Kilauea covered the village of Kalapana in December of 1990, 
and earlier when the Royal Gardens subdivision was largely wiped out, many 
homeowners used garden hoses to divert flows away from their houses in just 
the manner you describe, using the cooled surface to make its own 
barrier.  This worked in several cases...for a while.  Most of those homes 
were eventually destroyed as lava kept piling up higher and higher, or in 
some cases the building simply exploded into flames from the heat of the 
nearby lava.  (One house was actually saved, and exists today, completely 
surrounded by cold flows and cut off from all roads and services.  The 
owners could not get insurance payment because the house was not damaged!)

In the eruption of Mauna Loa in March and April of 1984, lava began to 
threaten the city of Hilo.  So the Hawaii County Civil Defence and Army 
Corps of Engineers devised a plan to bulldoze earthworks to divert the 
flows away from populated areas.  The lava got close enough that the red 
glow could clearly be seen from Hilo at night, and many people had their 
bags packed and pick-up trucks ready to haul household goods from their 
homes if necessary.  The earthworks plan was never put into effect because 
the flow stopped, but many experts---including geologists from the Volcano 
Observatory and the university---said it probably wouldn't work for a 
variety of reasons, including the rough terrain the flow was covering, the 
volume of material required for barricades  and where it would come from, etc.

So yes, your two suggested methods are believed to work, but only marginally.

Aloha, Kitty





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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 02:20:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jeff Holman)
Date: Wed Sep 18 01:20:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net> <3D87E2B4.9A4@Tomaszewski.net>
Message-ID: <3D883718.4030701@ieee.org>

Hi Kreigh;

I believe I saw some nature program that showed a village in Iceland 
being threatened by a lava flow, and they hit it with constant jets of 
pumped seawater - against all odds, turning its path aside from the 
village. Can't remember if this was in the 1960's or 1970's...

 - Lynn
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote:

>Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I just got back from a drive to see the lava going in the ocean.  I wasn't
>>too hopeful I'd see a lot because my bad knees prevent much hiking, but I'd
>>read that the lava has gone across the road just a short distance from the
>>place they allow cars to park, so I thought I could at least see that.
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>What I saw was enough, however.  I check the website every day and am
>>constantly amazed by the excellent photos, and now I have the memory of the
>>smell and sound and feel of being there to go with them.
>>
>>Aloha, Kitty
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Thank you Kitty for a wonderful accounting of your experience.
>
>The road being covered by lava got me wondering. I assume lava is not to
>be stopped, but can it be controlled? Can a flow be 'steered' as it is
>emerging/growing?  I've thought of two possible methods...
>
>	Spray water at one side of the leading edge to harden it, 
>	forcing the flow towards the side not cooled. Use the lava to 
>	make its own barrier wall.
>
>	
>
>Extra Credit question, is there anything that has worked outside of
>Hawaii?
>
>
>  
>



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 02:24:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann)
Date: Wed Sep 18 01:24:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net> <3D87E2B4.9A4@Tomaszewski.net>
Message-ID: <001901c25eed$b9ca53e0$979c77d5@pandora.be>

Hi Kreihg, Kitty & all...

Yes, there have been made some attempts that worked outside Hawaii.
The Helgafell volcano that erupted on Iceland in 1973, gave the people of
Heimaey quite a scare. It was actually a new volcano, called Eldfell, that
had formed on the northeastern flank of Helgafell that erupted.
After burying a fifth of the town under lava and ashes, the volcano
threatened to shut of the harbor mouth. With the help of equipment from a
local military base, the townspeople sprayed sea water on the advancing lava
flow. It worked as you can see at: http://www.pangaeasci.com/_iceland.htm
(sroll down almost 2/3)

Then there's the Etna in Sicily. A lavaflow from an eruption in the early
eighties threathened some villages and other important structures. Buldozers
and dynamite were used to excavate a bed to change the flow's direction. It
was directed in the "Valle del Bove" (translates as Bovine Valley I'm told)
which is an enormous natural reservoir that partially filled up with the
lava.
So, that worked too!

There are probably more of these "small victories" over natures power...

Cheers

Axel Emmermann
Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen
Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties
Home : Lobbesplein 12
            B-2640 Mortsel
            Belgium
Tel:      +32 (0)3 295.35.54
E-mail:
axel.emmermann@pandora.be
Visit our homepage:
http://www.minerant.org/index.html
Bezoek onze web-site:
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html
My own web-site:
http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] volcano visit


| Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:
| >
| > Hi all,
| >
| > I just got back from a drive to see the lava going in the ocean.  I
wasn't
| > too hopeful I'd see a lot because my bad knees prevent much hiking, but
I'd
| > read that the lava has gone across the road just a short distance from
the
| > place they allow cars to park, so I thought I could at least see that.
| 
| > What I saw was enough, however.  I check the website every day and am
| > constantly amazed by the excellent photos, and now I have the memory of
the
| > smell and sound and feel of being there to go with them.
| >
| > Aloha, Kitty
| >
|
| Thank you Kitty for a wonderful accounting of your experience.
|
| The road being covered by lava got me wondering. I assume lava is not to
| be stopped, but can it be controlled? Can a flow be 'steered' as it is
| emerging/growing?  I've thought of two possible methods...
|
| Spray water at one side of the leading edge to harden it,
| forcing the flow towards the side not cooled. Use the lava to
| make its own barrier wall.
|
| Bulldozing earthworks to make 'downhill' a different direction
| and thereby divert the flow; a cross between a canal and a
| levee.
|
| ...for making the lava snake meander in a choosen direction.
|
| First question, can anyone think of other methods that _might_ work?
|
| Second question, does anyone know what has been tried; and if it worked?
|
| Extra Credit question, is there anything that has worked outside of
| Hawaii?
| _______________________________________________
| Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
| WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
| Subscription Services:
| http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
|



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 08:07:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 18 07:07:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020917163407.029d4ab0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D888857.834C6657@earthlink.net>

Both of those methods have been tried with varying degrees of success.  Spraying
water, Iceland and also Aetna in Sicily.  They also used earthen berms with a
little less success in Sicily also.   The water flood project in Iceland was
massive, involving damned near pumping the bay empty, Just an example, and
putting it on the lava flow.  Different forms of lava have different responses to
these things.

Walt

Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:

> Kreigh Tomaszewski  wrote:
>
> >The road being covered by lava got me wondering. I assume lava is not to
> >be stopped, but can it be controlled? Can a flow be 'steered' as it is
> >emerging/growing?  I've thought of two possible methods...
> >
> >         Spray water at one side of the leading edge to harden it,
> >         forcing the flow towards the side not cooled. Use the lava to
> >         make its own barrier wall.
> >
> >         Bulldozing earthworks to make 'downhill' a different direction
> >         and thereby divert the flow; a cross between a canal and a
> >         levee....
>
> Kreigh,
>
> I'm no expert, but I can tell you what I've observed from living in Hawaii
> since 1972:
>
> A lot depends on what kind of flow is involved, whether it is in a tube or
> channel (which will keep the lava hot and liquid longer) or going over open
> ground, and how steep the descent is.  Pahoehoe flows such as covered the
> road here last weekend going over open ground and not very steep, will
> travel at maybe 1/2 mph or less.  An 'a'a flow will usually go even
> slower.  Some flows have been clocked at 6 mph, I believe, which would make
> diverting them harder.
>
> When lava from Kilauea covered the village of Kalapana in December of 1990,
> and earlier when the Royal Gardens subdivision was largely wiped out, many
> homeowners used garden hoses to divert flows away from their houses in just
> the manner you describe, using the cooled surface to make its own
> barrier.  This worked in several cases...for a while.  Most of those homes
> were eventually destroyed as lava kept piling up higher and higher, or in
> some cases the building simply exploded into flames from the heat of the
> nearby lava.  (One house was actually saved, and exists today, completely
> surrounded by cold flows and cut off from all roads and services.  The
> owners could not get insurance payment because the house was not damaged!)
>
> In the eruption of Mauna Loa in March and April of 1984, lava began to
> threaten the city of Hilo.  So the Hawaii County Civil Defence and Army
> Corps of Engineers devised a plan to bulldoze earthworks to divert the
> flows away from populated areas.  The lava got close enough that the red
> glow could clearly be seen from Hilo at night, and many people had their
> bags packed and pick-up trucks ready to haul household goods from their
> homes if necessary.  The earthworks plan was never put into effect because
> the flow stopped, but many experts---including geologists from the Volcano
> Observatory and the university---said it probably wouldn't work for a
> variety of reasons, including the rough terrain the flow was covering, the
> volume of material required for barricades  and where it would come from, etc.
>
> So yes, your two suggested methods are believed to work, but only marginally.
>
> Aloha, Kitty
>
> ---
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 09:21:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Wed Sep 18 08:21:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano visit
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020917150822.029d2b10@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020917163407.029d4ab0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D889C99.E921DB6B@mindspring.com>

Several years ago when an Icelandic town was threatened with
obliteration by lava flows they mobilized large pumps and sprayed
seawater on the advancing flow.  They were able to cool it enough to
divert it and actually ended up with a more protected harbor than they
had started with.  This was shown on the PBS series Restless Earth I
believe.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 10:22:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Keim)
Date: Wed Sep 18 09:22:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] AD:Demantoid Garnet, Swiss Fluorite, more...
Message-ID: 

Hi List,

I have just updated Marin Mineral with some good Italian Demantoid garnets,
a page of light green octahedral Swiss Fluorite, and a number of pages of
mixed minerals including a few specimens from the Marty Zinn collection.

Also find a page of new Quartz specimens including some Marin County and
Brandberg crystals, a page of new Fluorite specimens (one Herb Obodda
collection Fluorite remaining) and a page of new Tourmaline specimens
including a couple nice new Santa Rosa mine crystals.

The sale pages have also been updated with benitoite, tsumeb minerals, and
more and are worth rechecking.

Go to www.marinmineral.com

Thanks!
Mike Keim

The information contained in this e-mail is intended only for the individual or entity
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may contain privileged information.  If you are not an intended recipient you must not
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 10:23:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Wed Sep 18 09:23:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References: 
Message-ID: <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com>

Walt, have you been in the new discovery room at the Cave of Swords.
Selenites 50ft long!!


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 11:14:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 18 10:14:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References:  <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D88B2E7.9DB4FB9B@earthlink.net>

Yes, I have been in the "cave of the Crystals" the name Peñoles finally
decided upon for it.  50 feet long, yeah, probably.  I really can't say.
It is hard to judge the height of the things.  I will say this, though
they are big.  The ones that run diagonally across the cave are not the
most spectacular.  Just above your head and around you are big, Jagged,
and fantastic crystals hanging from all sorts of places.  I have only
penetrated the room about 2 meters. It is hot.  Some say 125 degrees
others 140, but It really does not matter. It is HOT.  It is a regular
stop on our Mexican Mineral Safari.  We access both the new cave and the
old Cave of Swords.

Wanna see it?

Walt

Lawrence Dee wrote:

> Walt, have you been in the new discovery room at the Cave of Swords.
> Selenites 50ft long!!
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 11:33:10 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Wed Sep 18 10:33:10 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References:  <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com> <3D88B2E7.9DB4FB9B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D88BB34.4FAD36D@mindspring.com>

There is an article in a recent Readers Digest on the new room with a
couple of amazing photos - they claim 150deg!


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 12:00:11 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly)
Date: Wed Sep 18 11:00:11 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
References: 
Message-ID: <001b01c25f3c$15157740$6f5204d0@jim>

The people at my club didn't have a name for the other quarry, but I worked
backwards through Topozone and MAS/MILS, and found it's called the Raymond
Quarry.
BTW, there is some quartz at Pints, but it would take a while to collect a
gallon of Pints' quartz.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry


> Great news. Thank.
>
> Dopes the quarry across the road have a name?
>
> Van
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 12:33:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Wed Sep 18 11:33:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

yes it was oxalic acid, i think throwing the brown zeolites depositied 
the calcium or calcium oxalate :( My bad on that one
KM
On Monday, September 9, 2002, at 06:25 AM, J Bryan Kramer wrote:

> Hydrogen peroxide will convert oxalic acid, my guess is that it will do
> calcium oxalate but more slowly. I'll try to test this in the lab 
> tonight if
> I get time.
>
> Have you confirmed that you did use oxalic acid?
>
> Bryan
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>
>> does this iply that h202 may clean that white calcium oxalate off my
>> flourite? that would be simple!
>> - Kris
>> On Sunday, September 8, 2002, at 06:26 AM, J Bryan Kramer wrote:
>>
>>> What about hydrogen peroxide then? I'll have to try some of this out
>>> in the
>>> lab Monday.
>>>
>>> Bryan
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, Don't do it. The permanganate becomes manganese dioxide and
>>>> nice dingy
>>>> black coating.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>>> jbryankramer@msn.com writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Subj:RE: [Rockhounds] thinking of flourite and solvents
>>>>> Date:9/7/2002 10:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>>>>> From:jbryankramer@msn.com
>>>>> Reply-to:>>> HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
>>>> e.com
>>>>> To:>>> HREF="mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com">rockhounds@lists.drizzl
>>>> e.com
>>>>> Sent from the Internet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well I found a decomposition curve for Calcium Oxalate, at 250 deg 
>>>>> C
>>>>> it
>>>>> gives up its water of hydration and around 500 deg C it is 
>>>>> converted
>>>>> to
>>>>> Calcium Carbonate. Fluorite has a melting point around 1400 deg C 
>>>>> and
>>>>> Quartz
>>>>> is higher than that, so in theory you could bake it to convert
>>>> the oxalate
>>>>> to carbonate. The Carbonate can be dissolved with Hydrochloric 
>>>>> acid.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not some thing to try with a valuable specimen however. And
>>>>> these
>>>>> temperatures are well above the home cooking oven temps so a
>>>> muffle furnace
>>>>> would be needed. 500 C is around 900 F.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah Ha, I thought I recalled something else. Oxalic acid, in acidic
>>>>> solution,
>>>>> reacts with Potassium Permangante to form CO2  other products. It's
>>>>> possible
>>>>> that you might be able to destroy the Oxalate with KMnO4. Again
>>>> this would
>>>>> call for experimentatation with scrap pieces, a bit of Mn+2 is
>>>> supposed to
>>>>> catalyze the reaction. You can buy the Permanganate at drug
>>>> stores, keep it
>>>>> away from sulfuric acid at all costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peroxide is another possibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 13:51:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua)
Date: Wed Sep 18 12:51:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
In-Reply-To: <001b01c25f3c$15157740$6f5204d0@jim>
References: 
Message-ID: 

>The people at my club didn't have a name for the other quarry, but I worked
>backwards through Topozone and MAS/MILS, and found it's called the Raymond
>Quarry.
>BTW, there is some quartz at Pints, but it would take a while to collect a
>gallon of Pints' quartz.
>Jim
 Shoot. I was hoping it would be called the Half Pints quarry- Bill C.

Dr. William S. Cordua
Professor of Geology/Mineralogy
University of Wisconsin - River Falls
410 South Third Street
River Falls, WI 54022
715-425-3139
william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu
"Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 14:00:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catspaw Minerals)
Date: Wed Sep 18 13:00:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pints Quarry
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Bad Bill, Real Bad...

So, you know anything up that proposed zinc mine up in NW Wisconsin?

gcb





 Shoot. I was hoping it would be called the Half Pints quarry- Bill C.

Dr. William S. Cordua


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 15:09:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 18 14:09:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References:  <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com> <3D88B2E7.9DB4FB9B@earthlink.net> <3D88BB34.4FAD36D@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D88EB3A.62CE4ED6@earthlink.net>

I know for a fact it is at least 124.  Probably 140 or so.  A little
license with temp.  Yeah, it is hot and 100 percent humidity.  Outside
in 110 it feels really cool.  The water coming out of the mine is 125
degrees. That is probably the temp.  The engineer there at the mine said
124 or 130.  The reports vary with the different people reporting them.
I don't think, 150, really.  I have been there, it is uncomfortable,
like death valley, but I don't think 150.  I will have to check the
article.  Which month?'

Walt

Lawrence Dee wrote:

> There is an article in a recent Readers Digest on the new room with a
> couple of amazing photos - they claim 150deg!
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 15:25:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 18 14:25:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References:  <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com> <3D88B2E7.9DB4FB9B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D88EF18.5A01984D@earthlink.net>

The large crystal, part of a group that runs diagonally across the toom is
as big around as a man or more.  I estimate it to be about .8 meters (
point 8) on a side, maybe more.  That is big in my book. The room is dimly
lit so it is hard to get an accurate measure with out lights and such.  It
is simply spectacular.

Walt

"Dr. Walter S. Bowser" wrote:

> Yes, I have been in the "cave of the Crystals" the name Peñoles finally
> decided upon for it.  50 feet long, yeah, probably.  I really can't say.
> It is hard to judge the height of the things.  I will say this, though
> they are big.  The ones that run diagonally across the cave are not the
> most spectacular.  Just above your head and around you are big, Jagged,
> and fantastic crystals hanging from all sorts of places.  I have only
> penetrated the room about 2 meters. It is hot.  Some say 125 degrees
> others 140, but It really does not matter. It is HOT.  It is a regular
> stop on our Mexican Mineral Safari.  We access both the new cave and the
> old Cave of Swords.
>
> Wanna see it?
>
> Walt
>
> Lawrence Dee wrote:
>
> > Walt, have you been in the new discovery room at the Cave of Swords.
> > Selenites 50ft long!!
> >
> > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> > Subscription Services:
> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 15:31:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Wed Sep 18 14:31:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS - and Rockhounding
In-Reply-To: <09B0F10F-CA85-11D6-8497-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>
References: 
Message-ID: 

Kris,

Thanks for the kind words; glad the guidebooks have been useful.

GPSy and connecting the GPS to the iBook has been completely easy and works
well. I expect you've looked at the GPSy website; it has information and
suggestions for cables and connections. I went ahead and bought the whole
works there, figured it was the easiest way to get a cable that worked.

It saved our behinds once this year in Montana, couldn't figure out why we
couldn't find the road extension to this one mine. Brought them up on the
computer with GPSy and discovered we'd taken a fork in the road to soon
(following memory of the map more than the map while driving in). Toys are
fun.

Regards,

Lanny

>lanny
>your guide books have found me treasures of stones and now you have
>helped me again with my GPS dilemma. I though for sure gettinga  GPS to
>sync with my POwerBook was going to be horrendously difficult and
>expensive but wth that GPSy software and that Garmin, its looks plug
>and play, like my mac.
>Thanks again
>Kris
>PS I notice there is fluorite near the town of Stibnite, listed
>somewhere i forget where - maybe just a map of minerals and localities
>with no description. ( i went on a snowmobile tour to stibnite last
>year) and i was wondering if it would be worthwhile to explore around
>some of that valley area where the old town of stibnite used to be? Of
>course it never hurts to look but sometimes one may have a better
>chance than others.
>I found a huge boulder of sea-green fluorite out of that Challis, Mine
>in one of your books. and that was just too fun rolling that fat sucker
>out of there. :-) Thanks again!
>Sincerely,
>Kris
>On Tuesday, September 17, 2002, at 01:31 PM, lanny@mineralnews.com
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Kris,
>>
>> Sorry for the delay, didn't get to this until I got back from Denver.
>>
>> In the field, I use an iBook, Garmin eTrex Summit and GPSy software.
>> Works
>> great. The cables availabe have DB-9 connectors, so one also needs a
>> Keyspan USB to PDA adaptor to make the connection--works smoothly.
>>
>> Most Garmin and other brand GPS units work. The GPSy.com web site has
>> info.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Lanny
>>
>>
>>> Lanny,
>>> if i may inquire.. what Mac, GPS and software do you use?
>>> Kris
>>> On Saturday, September 14, 2002, at 08:59 PM, Lanny wrote:
>>>
>>>> but with my Mac, GPSy software and
>>>> a cable to my Garmin, I can have real time locations on the USGS
>>>> topographic DRGs (7 1/2 min. quads) and actually have a map at a
>>>> scale
>>>> you
>>>> can really see where you are in the field.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>>> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>>> Subscription Services:
>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>>
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>   Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
>>   Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
>>   Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
>>   mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
>>   and The Mineral Database
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
  Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
  Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
  mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
  and The Mineral Database




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 16:26:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Dee)
Date: Wed Sep 18 15:26:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References:  <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com> <3D88B2E7.9DB4FB9B@earthlink.net> <3D88BB34.4FAD36D@mindspring.com> <3D88EB3A.62CE4ED6@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D89003A.C8B0B8C9@mindspring.com>

Walt - issue is the Sept.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 17:49:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frank Carrillo)
Date: Wed Sep 18 16:49:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Monterey CA Gem Show Sept 28 - 29
Message-ID: <3D8910A6.6F2B4306@redshift.com>

                     Carmel Valley Gem & Mineral Society
                                43rd Annual
                                  Gem Show

                      Monterey California Fairgrounds

                 Saturday September 28, 2002  10 AM to 6 PM
                  Sunday September 29, 2002  10 AM to 5 PM

             Gems, Jewelry, Minerals, Fossils, Rocks, Equipment

                            Exhibits and Dealers
                               Demonstrations
                                Door Prizes
                               Silent Auction
                                  Snackbar
                                  Kid Stuff

                   Admission $3.50    $1.00 off with flyer
(flyers available at Monterey, Carmel, Seaside, and Pacific Grove libraries)
     (or download flyer image from http://www.cvgms.org/show.shtml)
                        Children with Adult are FREE
                                FREE Parking

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 18 19:16:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Wed Sep 18 18:16:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cave of Swords
References:  <3D88AB30.FCEA18D3@mindspring.com> <3D88B2E7.9DB4FB9B@earthlink.net> <3D88BB34.4FAD36D@mindspring.com> <3D88EB3A.62CE4ED6@earthlink.net> <3D89003A.C8B0B8C9@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <3D892544.DE94ACE4@earthlink.net>

Thank you, I will have to see if I can locate it.

Walt

Lawrence Dee wrote:

> Walt - issue is the Sept.
>
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 20 09:18:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Sarah)
Date: Fri Sep 20 08:18:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Intro and question about serpentine
Message-ID: 

Greetings,

I'm a hobbyist rock collector and polisher from the UK. I've had a 
tumble polishing machine since I was a kid (my parents preferred that 
option to me in the garden with a toothbrush and soapy water). So far 
I've had a reasonable amount of success collecting and polishing hard 
pebbles, quartz and agate rocks gathered from the seaside.

After a resent trip to Cornwall I now have a fair bit of serpentine
ranging from 1cm to 10cm sized rocks. I would love to be able to
tumble some of the smaller pieces and would appreciate ideas on
polishing the larger bits. All of the bit I have seem to be about
3 - 4 on the Mohr scale. Does anyone have any tips on polishing
serpentine? Quite a few website suggest ignoring the coarse 80 grit
and starting off with 220 which makes sense to me as they are already
fairly smooth. I'm not sure which polishing compound would be best,
I've always used cerium oxide for hard stones. Would tin oxide be
better on softer material or should I use something else?

kind regards,
-- 
Sarah 


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 20 12:28:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rollins)
Date: Fri Sep 20 11:28:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] laurels
Message-ID: <3D8B69C3.D78D89E@rose.net>

I know that this is a little of the subject but is there anyone on the
list that may have access to seeds from Sheep laurel, Wicky (Kalmia
angustifolia)? 
I'd like to find seeds of the northern variety and the North Carolina
variety.
James A. Rollins
[mailto:willows@rose.net]

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 20 12:49:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 20 11:49:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Intro and question about serpentine
Message-ID: <99.2cae4a77.2abcc788@aol.com>

Dear Sarah,

Sounds like you collected som lizardite. The type locality for this most 
common species of serpentine is a geographic feature called "The Lizard", 
Cornwall.

For best results, I'd try putting only same sized pieces in you tummbler to 
reduce abrasion from odd-sized particles. Am noy sure there is much 
conventional wisdom on polishing softer materials. I'd try cerium oxide in 
the first batch and see what you like.

Good luck! Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 20 14:44:03 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Fri Sep 20 13:44:03 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Intro and question about serpentine
Message-ID: <12f.17dc10bb.2abce214@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/20/02 8:19:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
sarah@bob.bofh.org writes:


> Would tin oxide be better on softer material or should I use something else?
> 
I think chrome oxide would do a good job. However, it makes green stains if 
spilled.

Grant


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
  text/plain (text body -- kept)
  text/html
---

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 21 06:35:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Selby Bob)
Date: Sat Sep 21 05:35:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock Show Coming to Sequim, WA
Message-ID: <20020921123457.6167.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

Just wanted to let you all know that the free annual
gem and mineral show is coming to Sequim, Washington
(about 2 hours from Seattle) on Oct 4-6.  We have
dealers, a massive door prize, silent actions, and
demos. 

You can learn more at www.OlympicRocks.com

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 06:11:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep 22 05:11:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
Message-ID: 

A final challenge! Can anyone out there help in finding more information? 
Below are names of people who have minerals named for them but for which 
there is not enough biographical information available. For some there are 
vital dates missing. For some their occupation is unknown, especially for 
amateurs who discovered minerals, for some only their town or nationality is 
known or any institutional relationship is unknown, for some their middle or 
last initial is unknown. For example, Carlos Ruiz F., the final letter 
evidently that of his mother's maiden name.

>From the previous list, no new progress and those names are awaiting 
completion, especially Dr. Schwartzemberg of time and parts unknown.

Friedrich Karl Biehl (1887-?) mineralogist, Münster, Germany
Jean Clause Delory (?-?)
Gaston Demesmaeker (1911-?) Director Union Minière de Haut Katanga
Pierre Despujols (1888-?) founder of Moroccan Geological Survey
Gustav Heinrich Dietrich (?-?), Pribram, Czech Rep.
August Dietze (?-?) German chemist
Edward H. Doyler (1915-?) mineral collector USA
Edward J. Dwornik (?-?) USGS
Arthur Earland (?-?) British oceanographer
Nathaniel Kellog Fairbank (?-1903) miner, Tombstone, AZ
Sergei Aleksandrovich Fedotov (1931-?) director Institute of Volcanology, 
Petropavlovsk-Kamchatski, Russia
Kurt A. Fredriksson (1926-?) geochemist and meteoricist, Smithsonian
William Alexander Gale (1898-?) director of research, American Potash and 
Chemical Corp.
Abbé Chreistope Gaudefroy (1879-?) French mineralogist
Petr Ivanovich Glushinskii (1908-?) geologist, Institute of Arctic Geology, 
St. Petersburg, Russia
Samuel Stephen Goldich (1909-?) mineralogist, University of Minnesota
André Guarino (?-?), French mineral collector
Patrick E. Haynes (?-alive) American mineral dealer
Kitinosuke Henmi (1919-?) and Chiyoko Henmi (?-?) mineralogists, Okayama 
University,
Adolf Hoel (1879-?) explorer of Spitzbergen
Yunhui Huang (1926-?) mineralogist, Institute of Mineral Deposit Geology and 
Mining Resources, Beijing
Adolph Hübner (?-?) metallurgist, Freiburg, Germany
Alfred A. Levinson (?-?) mineralogist, Univ. Calgary, Canada
Thérèse Magnan (?-?) French mineral collector
Carlos Ruiz F. (1916-?) first director of Chilean Geological Survey

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 07:57:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Sun Sep 22 06:57:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
References: 
Message-ID: <3D8DCC5B.C06D4E63@att.net>

ANNWB2@aol.com wrote:

> Alfred A. Levinson (?-?) mineralogist, Univ. Calgary, Canada

That one is easy; Dr. Levinson is still active in minerals and many of
our Canadian members should know him.  Here are two cool links on the
subject:

http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/didyou.htm
http://www.ucalgary.ca/SC/newsletter/Sci-HiVol.4No.7.pdf

Talk about your coincidences: last weekend I traded for a levinsonite. 
Apparently Dr. Levinson is quite thrilled with this honor.  You probably
already know that he is responsible for the naming convention of
series-substitution rare earth minerals (for example, levinsoite-(Y))
that has become known as the "Levinson modifier."  Dennis Coskren chose
very carefully when he named a rare-earth mineral after the man who
standardized the nomenclature for the type of mineral that it is!

Don

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 10:39:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep 22 09:39:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

What mineral was named after Carlos Ruiz F.?

Find a copy of Rocks & Minerals, V. 57 No. 1 (Jan. -Feb. 1982), the article
by R.S. Mitchell: "Minerals Named for Persons Associated with Mineralogy
and Geology in Arizona" has short bios, including N. K. Fairbank.

Rocks & Minerals has run a column for many years with the title "Who's Who
in Mineral Names?" with the biographicl info.

Lanny

>A final challenge! Can anyone out there help in finding more information?
>Below are names of people who have minerals named for them but for which
>there is not enough biographical information available. For some there are
>vital dates missing. For some their occupation is unknown, especially for
>amateurs who discovered minerals, for some only their town or nationality is
>known or any institutional relationship is unknown, for some their middle or
>last initial is unknown. For example, Carlos Ruiz F., the final letter
>evidently that of his mother's maiden name.
>
>>From the previous list, no new progress and those names are awaiting
>completion, especially Dr. Schwartzemberg of time and parts unknown.
>
>Friedrich Karl Biehl (1887-?) mineralogist, Münster, Germany
>Jean Clause Delory (?-?)
>Gaston Demesmaeker (1911-?) Director Union Minière de Haut Katanga
>Pierre Despujols (1888-?) founder of Moroccan Geological Survey
>Gustav Heinrich Dietrich (?-?), Pribram, Czech Rep.
>August Dietze (?-?) German chemist
>Edward H. Doyler (1915-?) mineral collector USA
>Edward J. Dwornik (?-?) USGS
>Arthur Earland (?-?) British oceanographer
>Nathaniel Kellog Fairbank (?-1903) miner, Tombstone, AZ
>Sergei Aleksandrovich Fedotov (1931-?) director Institute of Volcanology,
>Petropavlovsk-Kamchatski, Russia
>Kurt A. Fredriksson (1926-?) geochemist and meteoricist, Smithsonian
>William Alexander Gale (1898-?) director of research, American Potash and
>Chemical Corp.
>Abbé Chreistope Gaudefroy (1879-?) French mineralogist
>Petr Ivanovich Glushinskii (1908-?) geologist, Institute of Arctic Geology,
>St. Petersburg, Russia
>Samuel Stephen Goldich (1909-?) mineralogist, University of Minnesota
>André Guarino (?-?), French mineral collector
>Patrick E. Haynes (?-alive) American mineral dealer
>Kitinosuke Henmi (1919-?) and Chiyoko Henmi (?-?) mineralogists, Okayama
>University,
>Adolf Hoel (1879-?) explorer of Spitzbergen
>Yunhui Huang (1926-?) mineralogist, Institute of Mineral Deposit Geology and
>Mining Resources, Beijing
>Adolph Hübner (?-?) metallurgist, Freiburg, Germany
>Alfred A. Levinson (?-?) mineralogist, Univ. Calgary, Canada
>Thérèse Magnan (?-?) French mineral collector
>Carlos Ruiz F. (1916-?) first director of Chilean Geological Survey
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
  Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
  Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
  mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
  and The Mineral Database




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 10:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Sun Sep 22 09:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
References: 
Message-ID: <3D8DF3C3.2B6F879D@att.net>

There is a ruizite, and I believe it is named for someone who lives in
Mammoth or Tiger Arizona--I can't remember.  The person who gave me the
specimen didn't have a lot of info with which to track him down.  I
don't know if this is the same person or not; nor if his first name is
Carlos, but I'll ask the person who gave me the specimen.  Van,  where
did you get the appellation "Carlos Ruiz F."?  That seems like a strange
way for someone to have written a name down.

Don

lanny@mineralnews.com wrote:
> 
> What mineral was named after Carlos Ruiz F.?

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 10:54:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Yocko)
Date: Sun Sep 22 09:54:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
References: 
Message-ID: <001c01c26258$6e397aa0$7f32933e@guerin>

> Jean Clause Delory (?-?)
His name is Jean-Claude Delory, it's a french mineral collector still alive

> Abbé Chreistope Gaudefroy (1879-?) French mineralogist
His first name is Christophe Gaudefroy (1878 -1971)

> André Guarino (?-?), French mineral collector     still alive
> Marie-Thérèse Magnan (?-?) French mineral collector    still alive

M Delory, Guarino and Magnan are members of the museum of Cap-Garonne
http://pro.wanadoo.fr/musee.cap.garonne/english/cadren01.htm

Nico



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 11:23:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (williams)
Date: Sun Sep 22 10:23:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
Message-ID: <001201c2627e$ae0723a0$e96be9d1@oemcomputer>

Ruizite is the mineral and my specimens are from the Christmas Mine in Gila
county Az.  F,Y,I, it occurs with Kinoite among other minerals,but, the
contrasting Brown--Ruizite and Blue-kinoite on the typical white matrix are
Outstanding.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: lanny@mineralnews.com 
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com 
Date: Sunday, September 22, 2002 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named


>What mineral was named after Carlos Ruiz F.?
>
>Find a copy of Rocks & Minerals, V. 57 No. 1 (Jan. -Feb. 1982), the article
>by R.S. Mitchell: "Minerals Named for Persons Associated with Mineralogy
>and Geology in Arizona" has short bios, including N. K. Fairbank.
>
>Rocks & Minerals has run a column for many years with the title "Who's Who
>in Mineral Names?" with the biographicl info.
>
>Lanny
>
>>A final challenge! Can anyone out there help in finding more information?
>>Below are names of people who have minerals named for them but for which
>>there is not enough biographical information available. For some there are
>>vital dates missing. For some their occupation is unknown, especially for
>>amateurs who discovered minerals, for some only their town or nationality
is
>>known or any institutional relationship is unknown, for some their middle
or
>>last initial is unknown. For example, Carlos Ruiz F., the final letter
>>evidently that of his mother's maiden name.
>>
>>>From the previous list, no new progress and those names are awaiting
>>completion, especially Dr. Schwartzemberg of time and parts unknown.
>>
>>Friedrich Karl Biehl (1887-?) mineralogist, Münster, Germany
>>Jean Clause Delory (?-?)
>>Gaston Demesmaeker (1911-?) Director Union Minière de Haut Katanga
>>Pierre Despujols (1888-?) founder of Moroccan Geological Survey
>>Gustav Heinrich Dietrich (?-?), Pribram, Czech Rep.
>>August Dietze (?-?) German chemist
>>Edward H. Doyler (1915-?) mineral collector USA
>>Edward J. Dwornik (?-?) USGS
>>Arthur Earland (?-?) British oceanographer
>>Nathaniel Kellog Fairbank (?-1903) miner, Tombstone, AZ
>>Sergei Aleksandrovich Fedotov (1931-?) director Institute of Volcanology,
>>Petropavlovsk-Kamchatski, Russia
>>Kurt A. Fredriksson (1926-?) geochemist and meteoricist, Smithsonian
>>William Alexander Gale (1898-?) director of research, American Potash and
>>Chemical Corp.
>>Abbé Chreistope Gaudefroy (1879-?) French mineralogist
>>Petr Ivanovich Glushinskii (1908-?) geologist, Institute of Arctic
Geology,
>>St. Petersburg, Russia
>>Samuel Stephen Goldich (1909-?) mineralogist, University of Minnesota
>>André Guarino (?-?), French mineral collector
>>Patrick E. Haynes (?-alive) American mineral dealer
>>Kitinosuke Henmi (1919-?) and Chiyoko Henmi (?-?) mineralogists, Okayama
>>University,
>>Adolf Hoel (1879-?) explorer of Spitzbergen
>>Yunhui Huang (1926-?) mineralogist, Institute of Mineral Deposit Geology
and
>>Mining Resources, Beijing
>>Adolph Hübner (?-?) metallurgist, Freiburg, Germany
>>Alfred A. Levinson (?-?) mineralogist, Univ. Calgary, Canada
>>Thérèse Magnan (?-?) French mineral collector
>>Carlos Ruiz F. (1916-?) first director of Chilean Geological Survey
>>_______________________________________________
>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>>Subscription Services:
>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>  Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
>  Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
>  Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
>  mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
>  and The Mineral Database
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 11:26:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (williams)
Date: Sun Sep 22 10:26:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
Message-ID: <001701c2627f$3390ee20$e96be9d1@oemcomputer>

Mineralogical Record usually runs a column called "abstracts of new mineral
descriptions" by J.A.Mandarino.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: ANNWB2@aol.com 
To: micromounts@yahoogroups.com ;
eminerals@yahoogroups.com ;
rocksandfossils@yahoogroups.com ;
GeoliterarySociety@yahoogroups.com ;
rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com 
Date: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:12 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named


>A final challenge! Can anyone out there help in finding more information?
>Below are names of people who have minerals named for them but for which
>there is not enough biographical information available. For some there are
>vital dates missing. For some their occupation is unknown, especially for
>amateurs who discovered minerals, for some only their town or nationality
is
>known or any institutional relationship is unknown, for some their middle
or
>last initial is unknown. For example, Carlos Ruiz F., the final letter
>evidently that of his mother's maiden name.
>
>>From the previous list, no new progress and those names are awaiting
>completion, especially Dr. Schwartzemberg of time and parts unknown.
>
>Friedrich Karl Biehl (1887-?) mineralogist, Münster, Germany
>Jean Clause Delory (?-?)
>Gaston Demesmaeker (1911-?) Director Union Minière de Haut Katanga
>Pierre Despujols (1888-?) founder of Moroccan Geological Survey
>Gustav Heinrich Dietrich (?-?), Pribram, Czech Rep.
>August Dietze (?-?) German chemist
>Edward H. Doyler (1915-?) mineral collector USA
>Edward J. Dwornik (?-?) USGS
>Arthur Earland (?-?) British oceanographer
>Nathaniel Kellog Fairbank (?-1903) miner, Tombstone, AZ
>Sergei Aleksandrovich Fedotov (1931-?) director Institute of Volcanology,
>Petropavlovsk-Kamchatski, Russia
>Kurt A. Fredriksson (1926-?) geochemist and meteoricist, Smithsonian
>William Alexander Gale (1898-?) director of research, American Potash and
>Chemical Corp.
>Abbé Chreistope Gaudefroy (1879-?) French mineralogist
>Petr Ivanovich Glushinskii (1908-?) geologist, Institute of Arctic Geology,
>St. Petersburg, Russia
>Samuel Stephen Goldich (1909-?) mineralogist, University of Minnesota
>André Guarino (?-?), French mineral collector
>Patrick E. Haynes (?-alive) American mineral dealer
>Kitinosuke Henmi (1919-?) and Chiyoko Henmi (?-?) mineralogists, Okayama
>University,
>Adolf Hoel (1879-?) explorer of Spitzbergen
>Yunhui Huang (1926-?) mineralogist, Institute of Mineral Deposit Geology
and
>Mining Resources, Beijing
>Adolph Hübner (?-?) metallurgist, Freiburg, Germany
>Alfred A. Levinson (?-?) mineralogist, Univ. Calgary, Canada
>Thérèse Magnan (?-?) French mineral collector
>Carlos Ruiz F. (1916-?) first director of Chilean Geological Survey
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 11:28:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H)
Date: Sun Sep 22 10:28:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
References: <001201c2627e$ae0723a0$e96be9d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <3D8DFDF2.B5AA4DB4@att.net>

williams wrote:
> 
> Ruizite is the mineral and my specimens are from the Christmas Mine in Gila
> county Az.  

Sounds about right--I think that Ruiz was a pharmacist or something, now
retired.  Do you happen to know if his first name is Carlos?  Perhaps
the same person Van is seeking?

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 12:02:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dr. Walter S. Bowser)
Date: Sun Sep 22 11:02:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
References:  <3D8DF3C3.2B6F879D@att.net>
Message-ID: <3D8E055B.268245A@earthlink.net>

The name Carlos Ruiz F.  Is quite common in Mexican families.  When a child
is born, that child takes its name, the father's last name and then the
mother's last name.  My wife's maiden name  was Martha Ramirez  Baca.  Her
father is Ramirez and her mother is Baca.  When we got married she be came
Martha Bowser de Ramirez.  OR something like that.  There are many
different ways in the world of carrying one's name.

Walt

Don H wrote:

> There is a ruizite, and I believe it is named for someone who lives in
> Mammoth or Tiger Arizona--I can't remember.  The person who gave me the
> specimen didn't have a lot of info with which to track him down.  I
> don't know if this is the same person or not; nor if his first name is
> Carlos, but I'll ask the person who gave me the specimen.  Van,  where
> did you get the appellation "Carlos Ruiz F."?  That seems like a strange
> way for someone to have written a name down.
>
> Don
>
> lanny@mineralnews.com wrote:
> >
> > What mineral was named after Carlos Ruiz F.?
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 14:55:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Marcus Origlieri)
Date: Sun Sep 22 13:55:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
In-Reply-To: <3D8DFDF2.B5AA4DB4@att.net>
References: <001201c2627e$ae0723a0$e96be9d1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020922140302.00b148d0@mail62.pair.com>

His name is Jo.  He appears at TGMS {Tucson) meetings rather regularly.

cheers
Marcus

At 01:29 PM 9/22/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>williams wrote:
> >
> > Ruizite is the mineral and my specimens are from the Christmas Mine in Gila
> > county Az.
>
>Sounds about right--I think that Ruiz was a pharmacist or something, now
>retired.  Do you happen to know if his first name is Carlos?  Perhaps
>the same person Van is seeking?
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


Marcus Origlieri
Mineral Zone
http://www.mineralzone.com


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 15:19:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Sun Sep 22 14:19:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net>

OK, folks, Bill and I took the occasion of harvest moon and autumnal 
equinox to go see the lava.  We left the house at 4:00 this morning and got 
our first view from the top of Chain of Craters Road of red glowing clouds 
at the ocean cliffs about 5 miles away at 5:00 am.  By 5:30 we were getting 
out of the car with sulfur-smelling vog swirling around us.  As we walked 
towards the place where the lava created the latest road-block last week, 
we could see orange glowing spots above on our left as lava oozed down a 
pali (cliff) about 1000 meters away.  Moonlight was bright enough that we 
didn't have to use flashlights as we walked along the road, but we could 
see lights from other hikers who were clambering cross-country both left up 
to the pali, and to our right to the sea.  We elected to head for the 
ocean.  Flashlights were indeed needed once we left the road, not to see 
the direction to go, but to pick reasonably safe surfaces to place our 
feet.  Because of my bad knees I took a cane to help keep my 
balance.  Bill---even though he has an artificial hip---had no difficulty 
staying upright and clambering everywhere;  I think he was a mountain goat 
in a previous life.

There were maybe 20 other people scattered about the area, some picking 
their way closer to the glowing clouds of steam, others perched on tall 
mounds of old lava just gazing at the sight.  Some were foolishly wearing 
shorts and flip-flop slippers, while others had full hiking gear and face 
masks for fume protection. We were somewhere in between. For some reason 
when people spoke they did so in soft voices, almost out of reverence for 
the magnificent event we were experiencing.

Soon we realized that bits of vegetation and dust and dirt were no longer 
beneath our feet, and we were walking on a new flow.  I reached down and 
felt the stuff I was standing on;  it was quite warm.  The sky began to 
lighten a bit, and our eyes were adjusting to the light, so flashlights 
were no longer needed.  The flow we were on is what they call "shelly 
pahoehoe" which is smooth and ropey, but with some flaky surfaces that peel 
off, and lots of cracks and tilted chunks.  At a fairly level spot I 
decided to stop because the terrain between there and the lava was more 
broken and would require too much climbing for my knees.  My agile husband 
scampered ahead.

I stood still and absorbed the sights and sounds.  Moonlight shone off the 
cool lava giving it a silver sheen, and made sparkles on the ocean.  Orange 
hot lava patches shimmered in the black cliffs in the distance.  Steam 
clouds billowed from the sea in various tones of yellow, orange, red and 
magenta.  A cool fresh breeze floated down from the hills, but occasionally 
the wind would shift to bring a blast of heat and fumes from the lava, and 
my throat and eyes would sting. There was the sound of surf crashing on 
rocks and an occasional moan as it slid across new black sand.  Every now 
and then I could hear hissing and sputtering from the red clouds ahead as I 
could imagine lava hitting water.  And there was the "plink" and "tunk" 
that periodically came from within the lava beneath my feet.  As a potter I 
know that sound.  It sounded just like a large piece of pottery after it's 
been removed from a kiln;  it can continue to "plink" even after it is cool 
to the touch.  This lava was not cool to the touch, though.  My feet were 
getting quite warm through the soles of my boots, and I found I could see 
red glowing from a crack right next to me!

Then I heard an excited (but soft) "Ohhhh" from some people nearby, and saw 
a bright yellow-orange spot appear in the black field to the left of the 
ocean cliff a couple hundred meters away.  It was a "skylight" that opened 
like a mouth yawning, revealing lava flowing rapidly beneath, and then, 
yawn finished, it closed.  After about 15 or 20 minutes Bill returned.  I 
had seen him join 3 or 4 people on a vantage point in the distance, maybe 
300 meters away, silhouetted against the brilliant steam clouds.  He said 
he saw (and took pictures of) lava oozing over a ledge like drool from a 
bulldog's chin.  He said yellow drips would splatter into the ocean and 
waves would spit them as dark red and black rocks back onto the newly 
created black sand beach where they would rest and steam.  I pointed to the 
red glow in the crack near me, and he said, "Oh yeah.  I was jumping over 
big red cracks all over the place out there!"

Just then another soft "Ohhhh" from visitors, and we saw the sun coming up, 
at first a dark red semicircle through the vog, then creating a classic 
sunrise with brilliant colors across the sky and an army of cumulus clouds 
lined up along the horizon.

If you go to the following sites and scroll to the dates given, you'll see 
things very similar to what we saw.  Clicking them to "large" is worthwhile.

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Sep/2-13.html  September 
8 (steaming rocks)

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Jul/19-31.html   July 
25  (moonlight)

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Aug/19-25.html   August 
20 & 22 (sunrise)

We got home at 8am and whipped up an omelette, hash browns and fried 
tomatoes and mushrooms
for breakfast;  visiting a friendly volcano creates an appetite!

Aloha, Kitty


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 18:02:32 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (crawford)
Date: Sun Sep 22 17:02:32 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020922192507.027b4530@mail.indy.net>

Kitty and Bill,


I love your volcano reports.  One day I hope to get to the island to see them
for myself.  Thanks so much!

Robin


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 20:53:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jane Davis)
Date: Sun Sep 22 19:53:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <007901c262ac$4a649d40$ec8b4d0c@jade>

Thanks for such a great report.  I can remember standing on the warm lava
years ago and your description is wonderful,
Jane
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 5:28 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report


> OK, folks, Bill and I took the occasion of harvest moon and autumnal
> equinox to go see the lava.  We left the house at 4:00 this morning and
got
> our first view from the top of Chain of Craters Road of red glowing clouds
> at the ocean cliffs about 5 miles away at 5:00 am.  By 5:30 we were
getting
> out of the car with sulfur-smelling vog swirling around us.  As we walked
> towards the place where the lava created the latest road-block last week,
> we could see orange glowing spots above on our left as lava oozed down a
> pali (cliff) about 1000 meters away.  Moonlight was bright enough that we
> didn't have to use flashlights as we walked along the road, but we could
> see lights from other hikers who were clambering cross-country both left
up
> to the pali, and to our right to the sea.  We elected to head for the
> ocean.  Flashlights were indeed needed once we left the road, not to see
> the direction to go, but to pick reasonably safe surfaces to place our
> feet.  Because of my bad knees I took a cane to help keep my
> balance.  Bill---even though he has an artificial hip---had no difficulty
> staying upright and clambering everywhere;  I think he was a mountain goat
> in a previous life.
>
> There were maybe 20 other people scattered about the area, some picking
> their way closer to the glowing clouds of steam, others perched on tall
> mounds of old lava just gazing at the sight.  Some were foolishly wearing
> shorts and flip-flop slippers, while others had full hiking gear and face
> masks for fume protection. We were somewhere in between. For some reason
> when people spoke they did so in soft voices, almost out of reverence for
> the magnificent event we were experiencing.
>
> Soon we realized that bits of vegetation and dust and dirt were no longer
> beneath our feet, and we were walking on a new flow.  I reached down and
> felt the stuff I was standing on;  it was quite warm.  The sky began to
> lighten a bit, and our eyes were adjusting to the light, so flashlights
> were no longer needed.  The flow we were on is what they call "shelly
> pahoehoe" which is smooth and ropey, but with some flaky surfaces that
peel
> off, and lots of cracks and tilted chunks.  At a fairly level spot I
> decided to stop because the terrain between there and the lava was more
> broken and would require too much climbing for my knees.  My agile husband
> scampered ahead.
>
> I stood still and absorbed the sights and sounds.  Moonlight shone off the
> cool lava giving it a silver sheen, and made sparkles on the ocean.
Orange
> hot lava patches shimmered in the black cliffs in the distance.  Steam
> clouds billowed from the sea in various tones of yellow, orange, red and
> magenta.  A cool fresh breeze floated down from the hills, but
occasionally
> the wind would shift to bring a blast of heat and fumes from the lava, and
> my throat and eyes would sting. There was the sound of surf crashing on
> rocks and an occasional moan as it slid across new black sand.  Every now
> and then I could hear hissing and sputtering from the red clouds ahead as
I
> could imagine lava hitting water.  And there was the "plink" and "tunk"
> that periodically came from within the lava beneath my feet.  As a potter
I
> know that sound.  It sounded just like a large piece of pottery after it's
> been removed from a kiln;  it can continue to "plink" even after it is
cool
> to the touch.  This lava was not cool to the touch, though.  My feet were
> getting quite warm through the soles of my boots, and I found I could see
> red glowing from a crack right next to me!
>
> Then I heard an excited (but soft) "Ohhhh" from some people nearby, and
saw
> a bright yellow-orange spot appear in the black field to the left of the
> ocean cliff a couple hundred meters away.  It was a "skylight" that opened
> like a mouth yawning, revealing lava flowing rapidly beneath, and then,
> yawn finished, it closed.  After about 15 or 20 minutes Bill returned.  I
> had seen him join 3 or 4 people on a vantage point in the distance, maybe
> 300 meters away, silhouetted against the brilliant steam clouds.  He said
> he saw (and took pictures of) lava oozing over a ledge like drool from a
> bulldog's chin.  He said yellow drips would splatter into the ocean and
> waves would spit them as dark red and black rocks back onto the newly
> created black sand beach where they would rest and steam.  I pointed to
the
> red glow in the crack near me, and he said, "Oh yeah.  I was jumping over
> big red cracks all over the place out there!"
>
> Just then another soft "Ohhhh" from visitors, and we saw the sun coming
up,
> at first a dark red semicircle through the vog, then creating a classic
> sunrise with brilliant colors across the sky and an army of cumulus clouds
> lined up along the horizon.
>
> If you go to the following sites and scroll to the dates given, you'll see
> things very similar to what we saw.  Clicking them to "large" is
worthwhile.
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Sep/2-13.html
September
> 8 (steaming rocks)
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Jul/19-31.html   July
> 25  (moonlight)
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Aug/19-25.html   August
> 20 & 22 (sunrise)
>
> We got home at 8am and whipped up an omelette, hash browns and fried
> tomatoes and mushrooms
> for breakfast;  visiting a friendly volcano creates an appetite!
>
> Aloha, Kitty
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.389 / Virus Database: 220 - Release Date: 9/16/2002
>
>
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> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 22 22:10:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Sun Sep 22 21:10:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Ad - Website Sale and Updates
Message-ID: <188.e69282d.2abfede2@aol.com>

Hi!  I'm finally unpacked and organized again from the Denver show.  It was a 
great show this year and as always, it was fun to see everyone again!

I have updated all of the "What's New" galleries; I will continue to add new 
specimens throughout the upcoming weeks.

I also need to clear out some old inventory.  I will be having a week long 
sale, starting Sept. 24, for all specimens currently in the "Wholesale 
Galleries".  These specimens are already 50% off the listed price; starting 
Tuesday the specimens in these galleries will be offered with a 55% discount. 
 Each day thereafter the discount will increase 5% until Monday, Sept. 30, 
when the discount will be 85%.  Hopefully you will find some real bargains 
and I will make some more room for new items into my stock.  If this is 
successful, I will run a similiar type sale on some of my retail stock during 
the first part of October.

Also look for some changes coming to the website soon.  I will regrouping 
some of the "General Stock" items, grouping them in locality suites, perhaps 
by sizes, and also, eventually, by the Dana system.  I will not change the 
current structure listing items by prices, but add these other new galleries. 
 Hopefully this will help make your browsing easier and more enjoyable.

Hope that you enjoy looking over the new specimens!

Thanks!

Dan Weinrich
P.O. Box 425
Grover, MO 63040

http://www.danweinrich.com

314-378-5567 


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 06:18:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep 23 05:18:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
Message-ID: <5a.1203bcbd.2ac06046@aol.com>

Woke up this morning to a discussion about the wrong Mr. Ruiz. Carlosruizite 
is an incredible compound - an alkali selenate and iodate!!! hydrate named in 
1994. Not the silicate ruizite named in 1977 for Jo Ruiz.

Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 06:49:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep 23 05:49:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for list of current Lavrion (Laurion, Lavrium) minerals
Message-ID: <20020923.054438.-11851.3.stevenkaminski@juno.com>

This is an old thread, and shows how long I have been away from the rest
of the world.  Between being out of town on work projects, getting our
new (1960) home into shape, and preparing for the birth of a new
rockhound, I've been out of touch.  I'm working my way through several
hundred unread rockhound e-mails and just got to this one today.

Piet Gelaude visited me a couple of years ago and left me several copies
of his book on Lavrio.  If anyone is interested in a copy, contact me
off-list.  I also have a small selection of Lavrio specimens that were
collected by Piet.

By the way, I believe Piet is in Lavrio right now, looking for that next
addition to the list.

Regards,
Steve K.   



On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:23:34 -0400 Don H  writes:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Does anyone have a current list of all the species found at Lavrion 
> (or
> Laurion, or Lavrium) Greece?  I saw something in Lanny Ream's 
> Mineral
> News that I need to verify.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> Don
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
> 

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 08:39:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm)
Date: Mon Sep 23 07:39:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <002501c2630c$eed3a3c0$651fbed8@powertech.net>

WOW!!!!
Margaret
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report


> OK, folks, Bill and I took the occasion of harvest moon and autumnal
> equinox to go see the lava.  We left the house at 4:00 this morning and
got
> our first view from the top of Chain of Craters Road of red glowing clouds
> at the ocean cliffs about 5 miles away at 5:00 am.  By 5:30 we were
getting
> out of the car with sulfur-smelling vog swirling around us.  As we walked
> towards the place where the lava created the latest road-block last week,
> we could see orange glowing spots above on our left as lava oozed down a
> pali (cliff) about 1000 meters away.  Moonlight was bright enough that we
> didn't have to use flashlights as we walked along the road, but we could
> see lights from other hikers who were clambering cross-country both left
up
> to the pali, and to our right to the sea.  We elected to head for the
> ocean.  Flashlights were indeed needed once we left the road, not to see
> the direction to go, but to pick reasonably safe surfaces to place our
> feet.  Because of my bad knees I took a cane to help keep my
> balance.  Bill---even though he has an artificial hip---had no difficulty
> staying upright and clambering everywhere;  I think he was a mountain goat
> in a previous life.
>
> There were maybe 20 other people scattered about the area, some picking
> their way closer to the glowing clouds of steam, others perched on tall
> mounds of old lava just gazing at the sight.  Some were foolishly wearing
> shorts and flip-flop slippers, while others had full hiking gear and face
> masks for fume protection. We were somewhere in between. For some reason
> when people spoke they did so in soft voices, almost out of reverence for
> the magnificent event we were experiencing.
>
> Soon we realized that bits of vegetation and dust and dirt were no longer
> beneath our feet, and we were walking on a new flow.  I reached down and
> felt the stuff I was standing on;  it was quite warm.  The sky began to
> lighten a bit, and our eyes were adjusting to the light, so flashlights
> were no longer needed.  The flow we were on is what they call "shelly
> pahoehoe" which is smooth and ropey, but with some flaky surfaces that
peel
> off, and lots of cracks and tilted chunks.  At a fairly level spot I
> decided to stop because the terrain between there and the lava was more
> broken and would require too much climbing for my knees.  My agile husband
> scampered ahead.
>
> I stood still and absorbed the sights and sounds.  Moonlight shone off the
> cool lava giving it a silver sheen, and made sparkles on the ocean.
Orange
> hot lava patches shimmered in the black cliffs in the distance.  Steam
> clouds billowed from the sea in various tones of yellow, orange, red and
> magenta.  A cool fresh breeze floated down from the hills, but
occasionally
> the wind would shift to bring a blast of heat and fumes from the lava, and
> my throat and eyes would sting. There was the sound of surf crashing on
> rocks and an occasional moan as it slid across new black sand.  Every now
> and then I could hear hissing and sputtering from the red clouds ahead as
I
> could imagine lava hitting water.  And there was the "plink" and "tunk"
> that periodically came from within the lava beneath my feet.  As a potter
I
> know that sound.  It sounded just like a large piece of pottery after it's
> been removed from a kiln;  it can continue to "plink" even after it is
cool
> to the touch.  This lava was not cool to the touch, though.  My feet were
> getting quite warm through the soles of my boots, and I found I could see
> red glowing from a crack right next to me!
>
> Then I heard an excited (but soft) "Ohhhh" from some people nearby, and
saw
> a bright yellow-orange spot appear in the black field to the left of the
> ocean cliff a couple hundred meters away.  It was a "skylight" that opened
> like a mouth yawning, revealing lava flowing rapidly beneath, and then,
> yawn finished, it closed.  After about 15 or 20 minutes Bill returned.  I
> had seen him join 3 or 4 people on a vantage point in the distance, maybe
> 300 meters away, silhouetted against the brilliant steam clouds.  He said
> he saw (and took pictures of) lava oozing over a ledge like drool from a
> bulldog's chin.  He said yellow drips would splatter into the ocean and
> waves would spit them as dark red and black rocks back onto the newly
> created black sand beach where they would rest and steam.  I pointed to
the
> red glow in the crack near me, and he said, "Oh yeah.  I was jumping over
> big red cracks all over the place out there!"
>
> Just then another soft "Ohhhh" from visitors, and we saw the sun coming
up,
> at first a dark red semicircle through the vog, then creating a classic
> sunrise with brilliant colors across the sky and an army of cumulus clouds
> lined up along the horizon.
>
> If you go to the following sites and scroll to the dates given, you'll see
> things very similar to what we saw.  Clicking them to "large" is
worthwhile.
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Sep/2-13.html
September
> 8 (steaming rocks)
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Jul/19-31.html   July
> 25  (moonlight)
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/kilauea/update/archive/2002/Aug/19-25.html   August
> 20 & 22 (sunrise)
>
> We got home at 8am and whipped up an omelette, hash browns and fried
> tomatoes and mushrooms
> for breakfast;  visiting a friendly volcano creates an appetite!
>
> Aloha, Kitty
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.389 / Virus Database: 220 - Release Date: 9/16/2002
>
>
> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> multipart/mixed
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
>   text/plain (text body -- kept)
> ---
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 08:40:02 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Mon Sep 23 07:40:02 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for list of current Lavrion (Laurion, Lavrium) minerals
In-Reply-To: <20020923.054438.-11851.3.stevenkaminski@juno.com>
Message-ID: 

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of
stevenkaminski@juno.com
Sent: 23 September, 2002 2:39 PM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] looking for list of current Lavrion (Laurion,
Lavrium) minerals

Piet Gelaude visited me a couple of years ago and left me several copies of
his book on Lavrio.  If anyone is interested in a copy, contact me off-list.
I also have a small selection of Lavrio specimens that were collected by
Piet.

	>>>>> Dear Steve et al., the book is on (about 100 !) SLAG minerals from
Lavrion. The minerals of the orebodies and secondary minerals of the
oxidation zone 	are not covered. For those who are interested in the slag
minerals of Lavrion me too I can highly recommend the book. I think they
might have some copies left. 	If it's urgent you can also contact one of the
other authors, Piet Van Kalmthout on
	pjc.vankalmthout@chello.nl

By the way, I believe Piet is in Lavrio right now, looking for that next
addition to the list.

	>>>>> Piet & C? leave tomorrow for Lavrion. He will be back on 8/10/2002.

	FYI : the spelling of "Lavrion" varies depending of the point of view. In
Greek is is written Laurion (sorry, can't reproduce Greek characters in
non-HTML-mode), 	but a u (upsilon) before an r is pronounced as "v", so in
our characters it should be "Lavrion". Laurium is the Latin equivalent.

Greetings,

Rik DILLEN
Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be 

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen

>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ 
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html




Regards,
Steve K.



On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:23:34 -0400 Don H  writes:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Does anyone have a current list of all the species found at Lavrion
> (or
> Laurion, or Lavrium) Greece?  I saw something in Lanny Ream's
> Mineral
> News that I need to verify.  Thanks in advance.
>
> Don



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 11:50:02 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep 23 10:50:02 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] More people for whom minerals were named
In-Reply-To: <5a.1203bcbd.2ac06046@aol.com>
Message-ID: 

That explains the problem. I'd forgotten carlosruizite. Ruizite was named
for Joe Ana Ruiz; thus I was wondering where Carlos came into  the picture.

Lanny


>Woke up this morning to a discussion about the wrong Mr. Ruiz. Carlosruizite
>is an incredible compound - an alkali selenate and iodate!!! hydrate named in
>1994. Not the silicate ruizite named in 1977 for Jo Ruiz.
>
>Van
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
  Lanny R. Ream   -  lanny@mineralnews.com - http://www.mineralnews.com
  Owner/Publisher  -  LR Ream Publishing
  Publisher of  Mineral News, mineral guidebooks  and
  mineral software: MinDex: the Mineral-Periodical Index
  and The Mineral Database




From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 12:07:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard Dale)
Date: Mon Sep 23 11:07:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Pat Haynes email?
References: 
Message-ID: <003801c2632b$b3ab80a0$e1810244@ph.cox.net>

G'day group,

Does anyone have an email address for Pat Haynes (tall, cowboy-hatted, Utah
field collector, papa of haynesite)? I'm pretty sure he has one, but I can't
find his card.   Off-list, please.

Many thanks,
Richard
www.dalerocks.com


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 12:31:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Mon Sep 23 11:31:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip to Namibia (september 2002)
Message-ID: 

BlankDear rockhound,

Here is a short report of a trip we made from 1 to 21 september to Namibia.

We (= a group of 20 members of the Mineralogy Society of Antwerp) travelled
in a high clearance truck with more or less comfortable seats but virtually
no shock damping... we felt quite shaky at the end of the trip. We started
in Johannesburg (South-Africa) and left after 3 weeks from Windhoek.
Accomodation was in tents, and food prepared on route (there was a freezer
on board). It was a tour-on-demand organised by Whichway Adventures, a
company situated in Capetown. We were very satisfied with the organisation
of the tour, especially with the driver (Raymond) and guide/cook (Debbie),
who learned us a lot about the country (and we learned them a lot about
mineralogy...). Every evening we had fun at the campfire, and went to bed
quite early (sunset was at about 19 h).

It was not a purely mineralogical tour ; we did a lot of sightseeing as
well.

Let's first talk minerals in short.

We collected rose quartz in Ai-Ais (south-Namibia). Boulders of several tons
are available here just at the roadside ; the quality is comparable with the
Brazilian stuff. Nothing rare, but It's always nice to find something like
that yourself...

We visited the Lithium mine southeast of Karibib, and took lots of samples
of petalite, amblygonite, lepidolite, quartz-XX, tourmaline, rose quartz
etc.

Further on we prospected in Brandberg-West (which is situated literally "in
the middle of nowhere" where only aboriginals live). We didn't find much
there, due to lack of time. Some wolframite, malachite and lots of unknowns.

We had a very well organised tour in the Okorusu fluorite mine, which is
owned wy the Belgian company Solvay. We were able to collect, but also more
or less forced to buy good fluorite specimens from the company. They spend
the money to social work for the local workers which I find a good idea ! On
the other hand the prices were pretty high in terms of Namibian price
levels.

We collected also garnet crystals in Tsoabis. Some nice crystals up to
several cm were found by colleagues. I was not that lucky. The locality is
situated near the Campsite, and also lots of tourmaline have been found
there.

Tsumeb is absolutely finished. Old miners and shops have absolutely no
Tsumeb minerals available anymore. If you are interested : the next auction
to sell the remaining equipment of the Wet Shaft is early october... The
other mines operated by the same company (e.g. the Kombat mine) are so
severely guarded, that the miners cannot get any specimens out. If they are
caught they loose their job immediately.

And, of course, we were able to buy lots of small collection quality
specimens on the street markets and from local people who manage to live
from the little amount of money they can get for the minerals they find. We
got nice gem quality aquamarine-XX (mostly only 2 cm or so), tourmaline
(schörl), feldspar-XX etc. from the Erongo Mountains, boltwoodite-XX,
descloizite-XX etc.

At the end of the tour we had to get an export licence from the Ministery of
Mines in Windhoek. That was not a big problem (once you know the way to do
it). The collected specimens should arrive here in about a week. The cost of
shipping the 250 kg collected will be substantial, I'm afraid.

The trip we had was great also in other respects. Because september is the
end of the dry season, wildlife is more than ever concentrated around the
few waterholes, e.g. in Etosha national park. On one evening at the
waterhole of Okaukuejo hundreds of mammals arrived near sunset : elephant
(33), giraffe (about 5), rhinoceros (3), zebra (50-100 !), gemsbok or oryx
(5-10), kudu, blue wildebeest (gnoe), jackals and countless springboks. In
september Namibia is extremely dry (total expected precipitation for e.g.
Keetmanshoop : 0 mm...). But the animals are not only observable in the
parks : in the savanna region around Brandberg and the Erongo Mountains you
can expect a big mammal (including springbok and oryx) about every 200-500
meter !! Somebody told us that it had rained in Windhoek during a few
minutes (3 mm of precipitation in total), and that was headline news ! We
did not see even a trace of a cloud all three weeks.

Namibia is a nice country to travel, taken into account that only a very
limited part of the roads is paved, and that there are some gangs of robbers
around, especially around Otjiwarongo and Windhoek. Part of the adventure
is, of course, that now and then you have to set up a camp on a place with
no water, electricity or toilets. In this season there are almost no insects
or other small biting or sticking creatures that attack you. The chance of
seeing lions, leopards or cheetahs is very small, let alone being attacked
by them. However, it happens, and you should always be aware about the fact
that you are in the wilderness. Snakes are plenty around, and you should
always be cautious (and e.g. lock up the tent at all times). Most people,
both black and white, are very friendly, hospitable and helpful. I was
surprised a bit by the fact that Afrikaans is much more used than I
expected. In fact, nearly everybody speaks (or can speak) Afrikaans (which
is very near to Dutch). Concerning shopping, food etc. you can expect every
item you can possibly think of available in the shops, even in small
settlements.

During 3 weeks we heard absolutely nothing about the rest of the world : no
newspapers, no TV, no radio, no e-mail, no mobile telephones... nothing...
phantastic !

At the end of the week my 1000 slides should be ready for viewing... I'm
curious !

Best regards,

Rik DILLEN

P.S.    If you are interested : the e-mail adress of Whichway Adventures is
info@whichway.co.za, and their URL is http://www.whichway.co.za/index.html

Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen
>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html





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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 18:15:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox)
Date: Mon Sep 23 17:15:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] I'm back.......
Message-ID: 

Over dial-up, tho (sob).  Portland's nice; gotta love being able to get 
everywhere by bus.  Rocks are disappointing. Most of the outcroppings here 
are basalt knobs or buttes of Wapanum Basalt (CRBs).  And the local "bad 
stuff" seems to be the Troutdale Formation; seems to play a role in most 
of the local landslides.

Anyhow, I'll deal with pending admin requests this afternoon. Thanks for 
your patience.

Aaron Fox
Rockhounds Admin

-- 
afox@drizzle.com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox
  GnuPG Public Key Available upon Request
"Disinformation is not as good as datinformation..."


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 18:22:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ronnie Van Dommelen)
Date: Mon Sep 23 17:22:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Carrollite and acid
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830153849.00a95a60@mail.aloha.net> <3D7030FF.BF5CDB99@cox.net>
Message-ID: <3D7DDBF3.7030605@dal.ca>

Hi All,

I just acquired a carrollite specimen. Most of the crystal is encased in 
calcite. Can I etch
the calcite away with acid, or will the carrollite be affected? 
Certainly don't want to hurt
that mirror surface. I tried to find the answer on the web, but came up 
with nothing.

Thanks in advance.

Later,
Ronnie Van Dommelen



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 18:22:11 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep 23 17:22:11 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: <20020916213414.SBWM3050.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>

Kitty, the Dictionary of Geological Terms is very good and I also recommend it 
for general purposes, but it is likely not going to contain some of the 
more "obscure" mineralogical terms such as you mentioned, like Tessin and 
Faden.  There is a thicker and more comprehensive "Glossary of Geology", but it 
costs a bundle.  I'm not sure there's any simple reference source for this--
that's what make it enjoyable and useful to have a big library of books on 
mineralogical topics, I guess!

Good luck, Pete Modreski
> Hi all,
> 
> Can someone recommend a good dictionary of geological terms?  I've got an 
> old geology textbook and the Audubon field guide to North American rocks 
> and minerals, but they don't have terms like Tessin-habit, Faden-growth, 
> epimorph, etc.  Some I can figure out with a regular dictionary or a google 
> search,  but I'd really like one handy resource.
> 
> Thanks, Kitty
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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> Subscription Services:
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 18:22:18 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Mon Sep 23 17:22:18 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] cornish lace agate
Message-ID: <124.16ca4796.2ab9110b@wmconnect.com>

Hello.My name is Charles Miller from the state of Kentucky,Which is located 
in southern USA.Im looking for !-2 pieces of Cornish lace agate to purchase 
or trade.I have many agates or some minerals,fossils to trade to.Thank you 
for you time,Chuck 


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 18:22:25 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mike Bowers)
Date: Mon Sep 23 17:22:25 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] victoria stone
Message-ID: <000801c261ce$1a74e1a0$f128fe0c@WC5X>

hello, my name is john bennett and today i have been going thru the +/- =
900 references to "victoria stone" on the net.  i have read your comment =
that you have researched the production of VS and can share this =
information with whoever.  i am fascinated by the material and would =
appreciate receiving any information you have, or can direct me to, on =
VS or on Dr Iimori.  i have seen a reference to there having been =
mention of VS in the LJ - do you possibly know which issue this was in?  =
would enjoy to hear from you if possible.  my email address is    =
mookaite@hotmail.com    regards, john bennett.


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 18:46:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (kevin k conroy)
Date: Mon Sep 23 17:46:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Carrollite and acid
Message-ID: <014f01c26363$e75f74a0$4289550c@kcmins>

Hi!

I haven't tried cleaning any of these in acid but you may want to verify
that yours is in calcite.   A lot of the ones that I've had are in a
feldspar, or "moonstone", matrix that looks a lot like calcite at first
glance.   A hardness test or a drop of acid on a bit of matrix away from the
carrollite crystal will tell you in a hurry which you have.   The
carrollites that have been coming out for the past year or so are quite
remarkable!   I've seen them with calcite, feldspar, and even quartz.   If
you want to see one with quartz go to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=714499035

Good luck with the cleaning, and I'm glad you snagged one for your
collection!

All the best,
Kevin
www.kcminerals.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Ronnie Van Dommelen 
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com 
Date: Monday, September 23, 2002 7:24 PM
Subject: [Rockhounds] Carrollite and acid


>Hi All,
>
>I just acquired a carrollite specimen. Most of the crystal is encased in
>calcite. Can I etch
>the calcite away with acid, or will the carrollite be affected?
>Certainly don't want to hurt
>that mirror surface. I tried to find the answer on the web, but came up
>with nothing.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Later,
>Ronnie Van Dommelen
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
>Subscription Services:
>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 23 22:48:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM)
Date: Mon Sep 23 21:48:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D8FEF0E.26520AD1@cox.net>

Kitty,
What an incredible first person report! Many thanks for being our eyes
onto this wonder.

You are absolutely correct in suggesting expanding the photos to
"large." Some are absolutely surrealistic, with many things within to
see. Please check September 3 at 0620:40, sure resembles something from
the underworld, one of the Angry Gods.

Thank you,
Teresa


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 00:52:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Mon Sep 23 23:52:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report
In-Reply-To: <3D8FEF0E.26520AD1@cox.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020923203932.02ef2390@mail.aloha.net>

>....You are absolutely correct in suggesting expanding the photos to
>"large." Some are absolutely surrealistic, with many things within to
>see. Please check September 3 at 0620:40, sure resembles something from
>the underworld, one of the Angry Gods.
>
>Thank you,
>Teresa


You're welcome!  For some other bizarre images, check out:
  2 August, 2nd picture...a lava Cookie Monster or Jabba the Hut.
30 July, 4 pics of a biting monster.
26 July, 1st 3 pics of a drooling sea creature.
25 January, last picture for that date, is captioned "Close-up of a knuckle 
handshake between 2 glowering towers," but it reminds me of a grotesque 
version of Michelangelo's "God Creating Adam."
19 August, "Head-on view of tiny stair-climber" looks like a snake lifting 
its head to decide where to go next.
Aloha, Kitty



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 04:41:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray)
Date: Tue Sep 24 03:41:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Greenwater, WA revisisted and conversations about jasper and silicates in general...
Message-ID: <0A65472D-CFAA-11D6-96CB-000A27B5DC58@mac.com>

so, a few weeks back I posted a  request for some information on 
rockhounding in the gReenwater, WA area and recieved quite a bit of 
response. First I would like to thank everyone who chimed in.
Next I would like to convey my experiences and ask a few questions of 
you will.
Someone emailed me a map of the area and we went off of that to find a 
nice seam of agate of many colors right in th eroad. NIce, I thought, 
but VERY HARD WORK and should save this one for later when i have more 
help.(My Jennifer, she helps, but many times just being there is help 
enough, and for this i Need reinforcements and more daylight! I noted 
some green clay around and some 40-150lb pieces of very green - rock. 
maybe green basalt inIMO, more later.
Next we headed off to the George CReek Location, a large boulder field 
that one must traverse before reaching talus at the bottom of the cliff 
on your left I was told (the farthest away) and the farthest away point 
and to the bottom to find BIG JASPER BOULDERS. Now this supposed half 
mile isn't no half mile on a trail, its more like a half mile across a 
boulder field, sheesh, who would have imagined that! About halfway to 
where I think (THINK) I need to go, I spot rocks perched on other rocks 
and nature didn't set them there - GOOD - I think. Some are nice, some 
I pocket, most I leave, thinking "someone got tired and left kibbles to 
follow, like crumbs" I even saw a red seam someone had chipped away at. 
NOw for the next quarter mile up to the base of said cliff I start 
seeing more and more red and green, not so  much silica it is jasper 
but green  BASALT danged-it! This is where my thinking of what jasper 
is grays out and what in reality may be many GRADES of jasper heck I 
dunno. In my younger year my dad would pick up rocks off the river back 
that were red, green or both and say "JASPER" and some I threw in my 
tumbler and took quite a shine. My thought is this basalt-type stuff 
would not take a shine. Nor would the green pieces I said more about 
later to earlier in this email. Well, that far out I stuck with what 
was gemmy that I saw and  NICE grapefruit sized pice e someone had 
hidden under another rock it seemed. Nice piece that one, although not 
really my find.
Lastly, we zipped over to Pyramid Creek and grabbed what I thought was 
a green jasper boulder of about 60lbs, although it may be some grade of 
silicate in between jasper and common green rock.
I hear terms like boulder opal and jasper and see so many rocks that 
have say green but don't look gemmy. Can somone draw distinctions 
and/or help me out with where I was and what I saw???
Thanks again in advance to all
Kris


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 07:33:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly)
Date: Tue Sep 24 06:33:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Carrollite and acid
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830153849.00a95a60@mail.aloha.net> <3D7030FF.BF5CDB99@cox.net> <3D7DDBF3.7030605@dal.ca>
Message-ID: <003201c263cd$e2e1f5a0$3f5204d0@jim>

I have no direct experience with Carrollite and acids, but based on the
chemistry would doubt that Carrollite would be affected by dilute HCl (about
50:50)
Jim Daly
Sauktown Sales
Microminerals and mounting supplies
http://www.geocities.com/sauktown/
sauktown@adsnet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ronnie Van Dommelen 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 6:48 AM
Subject: [Rockhounds] Carrollite and acid


> Hi All,
>
> I just acquired a carrollite specimen. Most of the crystal is encased in
> calcite. Can I etch
> the calcite away with acid, or will the carrollite be affected?
> Certainly don't want to hurt
> that mirror surface. I tried to find the answer on the web, but came up
> with nothing.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Later,
> Ronnie Van Dommelen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 07:39:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 24 06:39:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Carrollite and acid
Message-ID: <15a.1499d07a.2ac1c4b8@aol.com>

Am writing an article on carrollite with Gilbert Gauthier. The carrollite may 
not be affected, but some crystals have very minute cracks infilled with 
calcite and other minerals which may be affected by acid treatment. Beware. 

Also, the euhedral crystals in the vug can fool you into thinking the nice 
shape continues deep into the calcite or all the way around the "crystal". 
Beware again. You may expose more ugliness than beauty.  If the specimen is a 
"real dog" - experiment away.  

Beware cubed. Remember, carrollite is one of the most brittle sulfides known. 
Tiny amounts of pressure can cause the crystal face to flake.

Good luck! Van

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 09:39:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm)
Date: Tue Sep 24 08:39:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] victoria stone
References: <000801c261ce$1a74e1a0$f128fe0c@WC5X>
Message-ID: <004101c263de$72e07f40$c31dbed8@powertech.net>


hello, my name is john bennett and today i have been going thru the +/- 900
references to "victoria stone" on the net.  i have read your comment that
you have researched the production of VS and can share this information with
whoever.  i am fascinated by the material and would appreciate receiving any
information you have, or can direct me to, on VS or on Dr Iimori.  i have
seen a reference to there having been mention of VS in the LJ - do you
possibly know which issue this was in?  would enjoy to hear from you if
possible.  my email address is    mookaite@hotmail.com    regards, john
bennett.


I just got back after being gone and missing a month (and apparently this
discussion); I too would love to know how Victoria Stone is/was made!

Margaret
kadok@infowest.com


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Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 10:02:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood)
Date: Tue Sep 24 09:02:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] victoria stone
In-Reply-To: <004101c263de$72e07f40$c31dbed8@powertech.net>
Message-ID: 

Back quite a few years there was an article in one of the lapidary magazines
about the Inamori labs. They had information on "synthetic jade" and
"Victoria stone". Sorry I can't remember any of the details, but it was a
quite comprehensive article.

A few years back, I inadvertently made some fibrous glass while preparing
samples for XRF analysis. A mixture of magnesia and flux (lithium
tetraborate and metaborate) would persistently cool to a fibrous glass that
was quite chatoyant. Of course, I was interested only in producing clear
glass for analysis, but I suspect that something similar is used to make the
fibrous "Victoria stone" (with colorants, of course!).

Henry Barwood

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Margaret Malm
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:24 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] victoria stone




hello, my name is john bennett and today i have been going thru the +/- 900
references to "victoria stone" on the net.  i have read your comment that
you have researched the production of VS and can share this information with
whoever.  i am fascinated by the material and would appreciate receiving any
information you have, or can direct me to, on VS or on Dr Iimori.  i have
seen a reference to there having been mention of VS in the LJ - do you
possibly know which issue this was in?  would enjoy to hear from you if
possible.  my email address is    mookaite@hotmail.com    regards, john
bennett.


I just got back after being gone and missing a month (and apparently this
discussion); I too would love to know how Victoria Stone is/was made!

Margaret
kadok@infowest.com


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Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


_______________________________________________
Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 10:22:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Tue Sep 24 09:22:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <20020916213414.SBWM3050.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: 

Dear Pete (et al.),

Some additional information...
Faden-Quartz and Tessiner Habitus are German geological terms, and I suppose
that's the reason why you don't find them in most English references..

Faden means wire, fiber, filament, string... The term refers to the fact
that in agregates of parallel grown quartz crystals sometimes in a certain
direction of the aggregate a more milky-white zone occurs in the form of a
wire. When you look very carefully (microscope !) at those zones you will
see that the milky-white tinge is caused by numerous small liquid
inclusions. It develops if the walls of a fissure open more slowly than the
growth velocity of the quartz. During the formation all the time
micro-cracks are formed which are filled up with the hydrothermal fluid and
enclosed by newly formed quartz.

Some good images on the web :
http://www.seilnacht.tuttlingen.com/Minerale/1Faden.htm
http://www.kristalle.ch/sammlung/SlidesRWalter.asp?inFrame=0&Seite=13
http://www.zumbiline.ch/min-3-07.html
http://www.euromin.de/2002.htm

The only translation of the term in English I can imagine is "Qaurtz with
white strips". Does anyone have a better proposal ?

Tessiner habitus : by alternating rhomboedrical and prisma faces the prisma
becomes oblique. The name comes from the Swiss "Bundesland" ("county")
Ticino (Italian), Tessin (French and German). A splendid example is on
http://www.svsmf.ch/QUATES1.HTM
http://members.home.nl/pmestrom/pic-quartz-tessiner-binn.htm
http://www.siber-siber.ch/Dhimal.htm
FYI In Ticino-Tessin they speak Italian, German and Rheto-Roman.

Anyone who wants to know everything about quartz should have Rudolf Rykart's
"Quarz-Monographie" (Ott Verlag, Thun, Switzerland, 1989, ISBN
3-7225-6293-7, 413 pp., in German).

Best regards,

Rik DILLEN
Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be 

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen

>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ 
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html




-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of
pjmodreski@att.net
Sent: 16 September, 2002 11:34 PM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary


Kitty, the Dictionary of Geological Terms is very good and I also recommend
it
for general purposes, but it is likely not going to contain some of the
more "obscure" mineralogical terms such as you mentioned, like Tessin and
Faden.  There is a thicker and more comprehensive "Glossary of Geology", but
it
costs a bundle.  I'm not sure there's any simple reference source for this--
that's what make it enjoyable and useful to have a big library of books on
mineralogical topics, I guess!

Good luck, Pete Modreski
> Hi all,
>
> Can someone recommend a good dictionary of geological terms?  I've got an
> old geology textbook and the Audubon field guide to North American rocks
> and minerals, but they don't have terms like Tessin-habit, Faden-growth,
> epimorph, etc.  Some I can figure out with a regular dictionary or a
google
> search,  but I'd really like one handy resource.
>
> Thanks, Kitty
>
>
> ---
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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 11:09:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 24 10:09:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: <20020924170804.JQSW29048.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiwebc18>

Faden growth: In this case, Rik, it is likely better to stick with the original 
word.  There are too many translations for "Faden," and too many sublteties, to 
find a good equivalent.  What the heck, we already use "angst" and "zeitgeist," 
to name two, so we can add one more to our vocabulary.  I think that, by this 
point, the term "Faden growth" or "Faden quartz" has become so well used that 
the established community knows exactly what it means, and I'd bet the 
literature is filled with references to it.

I can't believe a good dictionary of geological & mineralogical terms wouldn't 
include this.  After all, many of the terms we use derive from other languages, 
either directly or indirectly.

Don

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 11:18:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 24 10:18:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: <11f.17148a1b.2ac1f804@aol.com>

It should be hyphenated: Faden-growth

Also it is "doubly-terminated"  not double terminated.

John Betts
www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 11:32:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 24 10:32:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <20020924170804.JQSW29048.mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net@mtiweb
 c18>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924073831.00a92320@mail.aloha.net>

>I think that, by this point, the term "Faden growth" or "Faden quartz" has
>become so well used that the established community knows exactly what
>it means, and I'd bet the literature is filled with references to it.I can't
>believe a good dictionary of geological & mineralogical terms wouldn't
>include this.
>Don

Do you know of one that doesn't cost $110?
Kitty


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 11:57:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Tue Sep 24 10:57:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924073831.00a92320@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: 

-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Kitty & Bill
Heacox
Sent: 24 September, 2002 7:41 PM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary

Do you know of one that doesn't cost $110?
Kitty

>>>>> Yes... there are actually plenty of them !

 I use since 1972 or so "A dictionary of geology" (Penguin-books). It's a
paparback edition. The second edition costs only 8 GBP or about 12 USD ! See
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140514945/ref=ase_boggysgeologylin
/202-9370730-0337469

Other possibilities :
Collins Dictionary of Geology : about 11 GBP
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0004341481/ref=ase_boggysgeologylin
/202-9370730-0337469

Dictionary of Geological Terms  Robert L. Bates, Julia A. Jackson (Editor) ;
< 12 GBP
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385181019/boggysgeologylin/202-937
0730-0337469

Challinor's Dictionary of Geology  Antony Wyatt (Editor) ; 25 GBP
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0708309135/boggysgeologylin/202-937
0730-0337469

A Dictionary of Earth Sciences by Michael Allaby (Editor), Ailsa Allaby
(Editor) ; about 11 GBP
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192800795/boggysgeologylin/202-937
0730-0337469

See also
http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/pubinfo/words.html
http://geologylinks.freeyellow.com/gendict.html
http://hallscience.com/earth_sciences/514.shtml
http://www.ericweisstein.com/encyclopedias/books/DictionariesofGeology.html

For even more information search with Google using [Penguin, dictionary,
geology]

Good luck.
Greetings,

Rik DILLEN
Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be 

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen

>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ 
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html









From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 12:36:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 24 11:36:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: 
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924073831.00a92320@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924082515.00a1a970@mail.aloha.net>

>Do you know of one that doesn't cost $110?
>Kitty
>
> >>>>> Yes... there are actually plenty of them !
< snip > Rik

Thank you Rik!  My problem with finding a dictionary was that just looking 
at a listing on amazon.com isn't sufficient to tell if a given volume will 
have fairly unusual terms (such as Faden and Tessin).  The on-line geology 
glossaries that I found were too general.  That's why I asked for advice 
from this list.

Many thanks.
Kitty


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 13:05:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans)
Date: Tue Sep 24 12:05:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924073831.00a92320@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020924082515.00a1a970@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <021901c263fc$77efae20$3c7277d5@pandora.be>

Don't want to spoil things, but neither the
"A dictionary of geology" (Penguin-books)
nor the
Dictionary of Geological Terms  Robert L. Bates, Julia A. Jackson (Editor)
mention the unusual terms Tessin or Faden ...

I'm quite sure there is no such dictionary that "has it all".

My best advise: use the WWW as your dictionary/encyclopedia,
and Google (www.google.com) to find what you're looking for.
Rik's message clearly shows you can easily find lot's of information on even
such unusual terms on the web...

Cheers,   Herwig

Herwig Pelckmans
Worldwide Mineral Collector
Belgium  Europe
http://www.xlizd.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary


>
> >Do you know of one that doesn't cost $110?
> >Kitty
> >
> > >>>>> Yes... there are actually plenty of them !
> < snip > Rik
>
> Thank you Rik!  My problem with finding a dictionary was that just looking
> at a listing on amazon.com isn't sufficient to tell if a given volume will
> have fairly unusual terms (such as Faden and Tessin).  The on-line geology
> glossaries that I found were too general.  That's why I asked for advice
> from this list.
>
> Many thanks.
> Kitty
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
> Subscription Services:
> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds
>


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 13:31:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 24 12:31:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <021901c263fc$77efae20$3c7277d5@pandora.be>
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924073831.00a92320@mail.aloha.net>
 <5.1.0.14.0.20020924082515.00a1a970@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924092936.00a22ec0@mail.aloha.net>

At 08:59 AM 9/24/2002, you wrote:

>Don't want to spoil things, but neither the
>"A dictionary of geology" (Penguin-books)
>nor the
>Dictionary of Geological Terms  Robert L. Bates, Julia A. Jackson (Editor)
>mention the unusual terms Tessin or Faden ...
>
>I'm quite sure there is no such dictionary that "has it all".
>
>My best advise: use the WWW as your dictionary/encyclopedia,
>and Google (www.google.com) to find what you're looking for.
>Rik's message clearly shows you can easily find lot's of information on even
>such unusual terms on the web...
>
>Cheers,   Herwig


Thanks for the warning.  But here's a problem with google and other www 
searches:  the first time I came across the term "Tessin-habit" was when 
looking at a description of a specimen on John Betts' site.  So I went to 
google, and the first listing it gave was...those very words on John Betts' 
site!  Yes, I can go through the 19 results there and possibly find a 
definition, but I'd really like a single source I can easily look terms up 
in.  The most likely candidate still seems to be the The American 
Geological Institute's Glossary of Geology.  So I'll try to find a used 
copy, or determine if the CD will work on Windows ME.

Aloha, Kitty



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 13:50:02 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (herwig pelckmans)
Date: Tue Sep 24 12:50:02 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924073831.00a92320@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020924082515.00a1a970@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020924092936.00a22ec0@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <023c01c26402$d15adba0$3c7277d5@pandora.be>

OK, Kitty, you asked for it!  :-)

So after moving about half a ton of rocks to get access to it, here are the
results:
neither Faden nor Tessin(-habit) are mentioned in the 3rd edition of
The American Geological Institute's Glossary of Geology
either !!  (yes, I checked the book myself).

Again, I'm pretty sure there is no such thing that "has it all".
The web is your best bet, even if you have to check a few links before
finding the right one.
Using the right keyword(s) is crucial.

Cheers,   Herwig

Herwig Pelckmans
Worldwide Mineral Collector
Belgium  Europe
http://www.xlizd.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary


> At 08:59 AM 9/24/2002, you wrote:
>
> >Don't want to spoil things, but neither the
> >"A dictionary of geology" (Penguin-books)
> >nor the
> >Dictionary of Geological Terms  Robert L. Bates, Julia A. Jackson
(Editor)
> >mention the unusual terms Tessin or Faden ...
> >
> >I'm quite sure there is no such dictionary that "has it all".
> >
> >My best advise: use the WWW as your dictionary/encyclopedia,
> >and Google (www.google.com) to find what you're looking for.
> >Rik's message clearly shows you can easily find lot's of information on
even
> >such unusual terms on the web...
> >
> >Cheers,   Herwig
>
>
> Thanks for the warning.  But here's a problem with google and other www
> searches:  the first time I came across the term "Tessin-habit" was when
> looking at a description of a specimen on John Betts' site.  So I went to
> google, and the first listing it gave was...those very words on John
Betts'
> site!  Yes, I can go through the 19 results there and possibly find a
> definition, but I'd really like a single source I can easily look terms up
> in.  The most likely candidate still seems to be the The American
> Geological Institute's Glossary of Geology.  So I'll try to find a used
> copy, or determine if the CD will work on Windows ME.
>
> Aloha, Kitty


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 13:53:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (earl verbeek)
Date: Tue Sep 24 12:53:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: 


During 20+ years of working as a geologist for the U.S. Geological Survey I 
had the opportunity to view and use quite a few dictionaries and glossaries, 
and the best of them by far was the AGI Glossary.  I recommend it highly, 
but with a strong word of caution:  note that it is a glossary of GEOLOGY, 
not mineralogy.  There are mineral-related terms in this glossary, to be 
sure, but many of them are simply the names of the minerals themselves, and 
many uncommon or obscure mineralogical terms are missing.  I'll bet you'll 
find kipuka and pali, though.

The AGI Glossary is in its 4th edition, I believe, so if you hunt for 
earlier editions on the used book list you might get quite a bargain.  Go 
for the 3rd edition; the first two pale in comparison to that one.  The 4th 
differs from the third in its incorporation of some new terms of an evolving 
science and in its deletion of some terms now rarely used (e.g., bysmalith, 
a perennial favorite of those who used to delve through the 3rd edition).

                                    Cheers-  Earl Verbeek


>From: Kitty & Bill Heacox 
>Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
>To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
>Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:40:05 -1000
>
I'd really like a
>single source I can easily look terms up in.  The most likely candidate 
>still seems to be the The American Geological Institute's Glossary of 
>Geology.  So I'll try to find a used copy, or determine if the CD will work 
>on Windows ME.
>
>Aloha, Kitty


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 14:38:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 24 13:38:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924103515.00a8bec0@mail.aloha.net>

Thank you Earl and Herwig for your input.

I've decided to try to find out if the AGI Glossary CD-ROM will work on 
Windows ME, but the AGI website has only a webmaster address.  We'll see if 
I get a response.

Thanks again.
Kitty 


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 15:27:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright)
Date: Tue Sep 24 14:27:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] RMFMS Newsletter
Message-ID: <002201c26411$384d3200$87b2950c@mel>

The RMFMS Newsletter is at http://www.rmfms.org

Mel Albright

Call or hug someone you love today!


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 17:35:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocksndogs)
Date: Tue Sep 24 16:35:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Swappers and demonstrators needed
Message-ID: <001001c26422$f0d43560$9cad153f@computer>

Hi- I need some swappers and demonstrators!  The show is in Decatur, =
Illinois at the Civic Center on May 10-11, 2003.  Swapper tables are $20 =
for the weekend, Demonstrators are free!  Email me at rocksndogs@msn.com =
 and check out the club website at www.cigmc.com   !!!


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 18:23:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 24 17:23:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: <179.f2dbf35.2ac25ba7@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2002 3:32:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kahako@aloha.net writes:


> But here's a problem with google and other www 
> searches:  the first time I came across the term "Tessin-habit" was when 
> looking at a description of a specimen on John Betts' site.  So I went to 
> google, and the first listing it gave was...those very words on John Betts' 
> 
> site!  Yes, I can go through the 19 results there and possibly find a 
> definition, but I'd really like a single source I can easily look terms up 
> in. 

Why don't you just email me?

John Betts
www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 18:40:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 24 17:40:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <179.f2dbf35.2ac25ba7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924144556.00aba190@mail.aloha.net>

  Why don't you just email me?

>John Betts


Many thanks, John, but I'm so uneducated you'd be getting several questions 
a day!  Now if you'd post a really good glossary...in your free time of 
course...  ;)

Aloha, Kitty



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 18:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com)
Date: Tue Sep 24 17:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
Message-ID: <164.1470d25c.2ac260d4@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2002 8:41:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
kahako@aloha.net writes:


> Now if you'd post a really good glossary...

I have plans to add a "visual" glossary to my web site using photos to 
illustrate the terms.
John Betts
www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 18:59:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Tue Sep 24 17:59:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] terms dictionary
In-Reply-To: <164.1470d25c.2ac260d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020924150141.02cb0230@mail.aloha.net>

> > Now if you'd post a really good glossary...
>
>I have plans to add a "visual" glossary to my web site using photos to
>illustrate the terms.
>John Betts

EXCELLENT plan!!  I'm sure it will be appreciated...certainly by 
me!!  Please let the list know when it's up.

I've mentioned the following before, but an example of a pretty good visual 
glossary (for volcanoes) can be see at:

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/pglossary.html

Aloha, Kitty



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Tue Sep 24 20:00:02 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM)
Date: Tue Sep 24 19:00:02 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] volcano report YAK
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020922092446.02f1bad0@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020923203932.02ef2390@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D911923.B2A15ACE@cox.net>

Kitty,
You are so right! Just thinking of the happy images we see in the
wonderful billowy white cumulus clouds. vs the ominous images we see in
the fiery tortured black lava...
Teresa


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Wed Sep 25 14:03:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Utilisateur1)
Date: Wed Sep 25 13:03:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Free mineral ads
Message-ID: <004401c264ce$6feae1e0$6b6efcc1@r4q8f2>

Hi all !!

You can place your ads for free in the Mineral Webzine .

The next issue (n=B0 9) will coming soon.

Y. Dain
French collector of minerals
http://www.chez.com/mineralzine/


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Thu Sep 26 21:45:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (bob stevens)
Date: Thu Sep 26 20:45:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] locality information
Message-ID: <001d01c265ce$be3afb40$5b8baec7@slc.edu>

I have a micromount of Gormanite and would like to ask one of our European
friends about the correct name and a little about the locality.  It is
written insuch a way that I am not sure about the spelling.

Gormanit
Hahnen Kofel II
Millstaidter See
Karnten

Thank you very much for your help.

Bob


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 27 08:09:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Hilmar Krocke)
Date: Fri Sep 27 07:09:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] locality information
In-Reply-To: <001d01c265ce$be3afb40$5b8baec7@slc.edu>
Message-ID: 

bob stevens2002.09.26 19:36bigbobauburn@mindspring.com

I have a micromount of Gormanite and would like to ask one of our European
friends about the correct name and a little about the locality.  It is
written insuch a way that I am not sure about the spelling.

Gormanit
Hahnen Kofel II
Millstaidter See
Karnten

Thank you very much for your help.

Bob

_______________________________________________

Gormanit =3D german spelling of the mineral
Hahnen Kofel =3D the name of a mountain  (the II is meaningless)
Millst=E4dter See (or Millstaedter) =3D a lake named after the town Millstadt
K=E4rnten =3D the southernmost province in =D6sterreich (Austria)
                  bordering on Italia and Slovenia

Hilmar Krocke
Vancouver,  B.C. =20



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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 27 08:10:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Bestminerals)
Date: Fri Sep 27 07:10:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Personal prophile
Message-ID: <001801c26630$9a4a0200$66d62dd5@giorgio>

My mane is Giorgio Spiga, I'm 60 and live in Capoterra (Sardinia Italy) =
and I' ve just subscribed. I send you my full address and (attached) my =
personal prophile. Thanks and best regards Giorgio

Giorgio Spiga
Poggio dei Pini str. 40/41
09012 Caporerra (CA)
Italy
tel/fax: +39.070.725098=20


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 27 08:53:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush)
Date: Fri Sep 27 07:53:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Personal prophile
References: <001801c26630$9a4a0200$66d62dd5@giorgio>
Message-ID: <005401c26635$ca98b320$79ae5a0c@fekib>

----- Original Message -----
From: Bestminerals 
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:17 AM
Subject: [Rockhounds] Personal prophile


My mane is Giorgio Spiga, I'm 60 and live in Capoterra (Sardinia Italy) and
I' ve just subscribed. I send you my full address and (attached) my personal
prophile. Thanks and best regards Giorgio

Giorgio Spiga
Poggio dei Pini str. 40/41
09012 Caporerra (CA)
Italy
tel/fax: +39.070.725098


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------

Giorgio;  Do you have any of the nice Sardinian barite to trade? I am a
retired geologist with a large surplus of minerals to exchange. If you do
trade, what are you looking for?
I can send you photos of some nice quartz I dug this summer.

Larry Rush


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Fri Sep 27 15:12:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TAM)
Date: Fri Sep 27 14:12:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Pertinent Land Information and Moon Rocks for The U.S.A.
Message-ID: <3D94CA10.6BE453B@cox.net>

To those interested in Rock and Mineral collecting, there is information
here that can be very useful. Bob Cranston has an e-mailing when items
that need action are occurring. His e-mail address is included above.
Joining ALAA is also an excellent suggestion.
Teresa


LEGISLATIVE REPORT, etc.
The vicious fire season of 2002 has replaced roadless policy with a
debate on
forest management. Many politicians have the forest thinning religion,
at
least until the upcoming elections are over. On Wednesday, Sept. 4,
Interior
Sec. Gale Norton and Agriculture Sec. Ann Veneman said the Bush
Administration will press Congress for a "common sense approach" to the
wildfire problem. Norton said that 40% of the Forest Service's budget
for
thinning is being spent on studies. Norton also appointed Alan K.
Fitzsimmons
to be Interiors' wildfire fuels coordinator. Friends of the Earth
spokesman
Kristen Sykes objected to the appointment, saying Fitzsimmons lacked
experience in the work. Denver Post, Sept. 5, 2002.

The following day Administration officials asked Congress to relax
certain
requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) to exempt
tree
cutting projects from the need for environmental impact statements. The
Bush
plan would also limit judges' powers to stop tree cutting projects.
Denver
Post, Sept. 6, 2002. The President appealed to Congress to act quickly
on the
wildfire prevention plan. Denver Post, Sept. 12,  2002.

A group of 21 scientists from universities around the country sent a
letter
to Washington in which they argued that it is natures way to let the
back
country bum if it wants to; and that the money could be better used for
thinning to protect homes and water supplies. Denver Post, September 18,

2002. As of this writing, the proposal to roll back NEPA restrictions
has hit
a figurative log jam, as both proponents and opponents of the forest
thinning
plan have hardened their positions, vowing not to give in to anything
the
other side wants. Stay tuned. Denver Post, September 20, 2002.

In New Mexico, US District Judge William Johnson dismissed an
environmental
group's lawsuit which sought to halt a timber salvage sale in a 6000
acre
burned area of the Gila National Forest, near Silver City. Denver Post,
September 10, 2002.

Delegates to the American Federation of Mineral Societies (AFMS) July
2002
annual meeting in Port Townsend, Washington, passed a resolution to
establish
an ad hoc committee to look into purchase and /or lease of collecting
sites,
on a nation wide basis. The thought is that AFMS has received scant
return
from recipients of past scholarships, and that those funds could be
better
used. Loud & Clear, August 30, 2002, via American lands Access
Association
(ALAA).

The US Forest Service is proposing to amend several Land and Resource
Management Plans to adopt conservation measures for the Canada lynx, a
threatened species. The following forests are affected: San Juan, Pike
and
San Isabel, Routt, Arapaho and Roosevelt, Rio Grand, Grand Mesa,
Uncompahgre
and Gunnison, and Medicine Bow. Public meetings are planned. Contact the

Forest Service, Rocky Mountain Region, PO Box 25127, Lakewood, CO 80225
for
dates and locations of the open houses, and for more information.

There are two separate "Paleontological Resources Preservation Act"
bills now
in Congress; House H.R. 2974 introduced in October, 2001, and Senate
S.2727,
introduced in July, 2002. While similar in many details, the two bills
are
not identical. The June-July-August issue of ALAA's "Alerts & Actions"
has a
factual comparison of the bills. Copies of the bills are available by
number
on the internet at http://thomas.loc.gov or by contacting your
congressional
representative. ALAA, June-July-August, 2002.

And did you know that archaeologists working at a desert site south of
the
Dead Sea in Jordan have excavated a large copper factory from the Early
Bronze Age? The factory collapsed during an earthquake about 2700 BC ,
preserving thousands of tools and molds. National Geographic News,
September
20, 2002.


LEGISLATIVE REPORT, etc.
 A reader asked the Lapidary Journal where a family could enjoy a rock
hunting vacation without worrying about BLM and Forest Service
regulations.
In response, June Culp Zeitner listed several sources of information
such as
land agencies and rock and gem clubs in an area. In addition, she
suggested
that a book "Fee Mining Adventures and Rock Hunting Expeditions in the
US",
by Martin and Jeanette Monaco, could be very helpful. Lapidary Journal,
September, 2001.

Remember the Wildlands Project? Quietly, the effort to restrict access
continues. In California the Wildlands Project has teamed with
Representative
Lois Capps to designate 215,000 acres of prime Santa Barbara coast land
in
California as a national park, although it is unlikely that all the
residents
are in favor of the designation. Item posted by Henry Lamb, Executive
vice-president of the Environmental Conservation Organization, via ALAA.

       Henry Lamb's report continues to list other ongoing projects such
as
one in North Dakota, where the federal government is said to be working
to
block road building on 266,000 acres, making it a de facto wilderness.
Lamb
observes that the wealthy Nature Conservancy is behind many of the
projects.
However, preservation work in Florida to restore the Everglades has
become a
focal point for citizen action opposing restrictions. Under the Sawgrass

Rebellion banner, people are planning to gather in Maples and Homestead,

Florida on October 17 - 19, to protest.

Three student employees and another man in Tampa, Florida were charged
with
stealing a 600 pound safe full of moon rocks and meteorites from the
Johnson
Space Center in Houston and then trying to sell the rocks. The materials
were
lunar samples from the Apollo missions. FBI agents found the ad in the
Mineralogy Club of Antwerp, Belgium, web site, after receiving an e-mail
tip.
Associated Press report, via the Denver Post, July 23, 2002.

A bill designating 14,000 acres in the James Peak (Colorado) area as
wilderness
s and protecting another 16,000 acres from development was signed into
law by
President Bush on August 23. The legislation broke a stalemate between
conservationists and the Grand County Commissioners. It adds about 3,195

acres to the Indian Peaks Wilderness, and creates the James Peak
Protection
Area in Grand County, but permits mountain biking is some areas, limited

snowmobiling in one area, and preserves water rights in the protected
area.
Denver Post, August 25, 2002.

Four conservation groups have sued to temporarily block an energy
company
from using 30 ton thumper trucks to explore for oil and gas deposits on
9,600
acres of the Canyons of Ancients National Monument near Durango,
Colorado. US
District Court Judge Lewis T. Babcock agreed the process could damage
archaeological sites. 85% of the monument is available for energy
development. Denver Post, August 21, 2002.

Since the 1800's, the beautiful Valles Caldera (volcanic crater) west of
Los
Alamos, New Mexico, has been known and used as the Baca Ranch. In July
2000
the 89,000 acre property was purchased by the US Forest Service with
$101
million of public funds. The land is  designated as the Valles Caldera
National Preserve. A government corporation known as the Valles Caldera
Trust
was created to manage the land. Now a private company is offering guided

hikes of the "public" land for $45. (The Nature Conservancy bought the
97,000
acre northern portion of the Baca ranch adjacent to the Great Sand Dunes

National Monument and Preserve earlier this year). USA Today, August 20,
2002
and other reports.

Join the American Lands Access Association - the hobby's only voice on
legislative matters. Contact them at: Toby Cozens  4401 S.W. Hill,
Seattle, WA  98116
It is $25 well spent.


From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 28 03:38:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rick Turner)
Date: Sat Sep 28 02:38:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Belated reply to the thread on blue tourmaline...
Message-ID: <000f01c266d2$b01c1170$01affea8@glastonbury>

Just to add a couple of things to the thread on Namibian tourmaline that =
was been running on and off some time ago (I've only just seen the =
thread):

The Neuschwaben mine produced dark blue tourmaline but it closed many =
years ago. 1957 comes to mind, but I'd need to check to be sure of the =
exact date. Genuine material from here is rarely if ever seen these days =
though I have seen stones that (falsely) purport to be from there (so be =
warned!). Neuschwaben was/is nearer to Karibib than Usakos, a few miles =
to the ssw of that town. Later on, another pegmatite very close to the =
original one was found, and this produced only red tourmaline of a =
characteristic purplish-cranberry colour (gemmologists often call this =
material "siberite"). This also gets labelled as being from Neuschwaben, =
and has been the source of much confusion.

Sid Pieters blue tourmaline came from a mine closer to Usakos. It is in =
the hills a couple of miles south of the main road from Karibib. One =
hell of a drive to get up there, more cart track than road and a =
challenge even with four-wheel drive. The mine was a series of opencuts =
on a swarm of pegmatitic veins/veinlets. The 'main' vein - if you can =
call it that - was a classic layered pegmatite some eight or nine feet =
wide.  The outer laters were tough as anything, being solid =
quartz/feldspar/mica mix. It was worked by hand - drill and blast, then =
muck out with a small front end loader. Many of the veins carried =
tourmaline, though most of it was not gem (faceting) quality (mind you, =
the rest was not bad cabbing material - I still have a couple of hundred =
kilos of beautiful watermelon tourmaline holding down the floor in my =
garage!). The majority of the tourmaline was naturally fractured and =
really good material only came from rare cavities in the pegmatite core. =
In these cavities the crystals were usually naturally detached and found =
lying in the mud in the bottom of the vug. The blue gem tourmaline tends =
to come in two shades, the light one being similar to aquamarine (though =
a bit more greenish) and the dark one being a royal blue colour. The =
light coloured crystals were never terminated, but some of the royal =
blue ones have perfect basal (flat) terminations. Some have a coal black =
termination and these are really pretty. Most of the crystals were small =
(1/2 inch in diameter or under) though I do have some slices of one that =
we found that was the best part of 2-1/2 inches across. I still have a =
lot of this material in a box somewhere so I can dig some out and post a =
couple of pictures if there is interest. In addition to the tourmaline, =
the pegmatites produced a range of other minerals - nice quartz and =
muscovite crystals, lepidolite, etc. We never found any beryl to speak =
of but there was quite a lot of beryllonite in places - some of it in =
big enough chunks to facet or cab, the cabs being cats eyes in a few =
cases. I've also got some tantalite xls from here, and one or two =
oddities for a pegmatite - spinel (bright orange) and bismutite. The =
deposit was worked from the mid-late 1970's through to the 1990's I =
believe, but I am not sure of the current status (I'd have to check with =
Sid).

At the same time, Sid was operating two other mines, one being the Mile =
72 mine (jeremeejevite - see the recent Min Rec article if you want more =
info; all I can add is that we also found some beautiful purple-blue =
fluor-apatite crystals there as well) and the second being another =
tourmaline mine. This other mine was maybe 10 miles north of Usakos, =
west of the main road and it produced dark green gem material. The =
crystals are highly pleochroic (brown, black, green) so the gems have to =
be cut just right to get the best colour. I've not seen such strong =
pleochroism in tourmaline before or after, so it's possible that the =
chemical composition is a bit odd. This tourmaline is also incredibly =
sensitive to thermal shock, so cutting it is a challenge as it tends to =
crack just at the wrong time (usually during polishing, when friction =
heats up the stone).

I can probably add to this information if anybody is interested - drop =
me a line and I'll post it to the newsgroup.

Rick


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 28 04:07:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Sat Sep 28 03:07:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Belated reply to the thread on blue tourmaline...
In-Reply-To: <000f01c266d2$b01c1170$01affea8@glastonbury>
Message-ID: 

In addition to the message below : recently (two weeks ago) we found light
blue tourmaline (no gem quality though !) in the "Lithium mine" about 20 km
SE of Karibib.

Greetings,

Rik DILLEN
Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be 

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen

>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ 
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html




-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Rick Turner
Sent: 28 September, 2002 11:38 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: [Rockhounds] Belated reply to the thread on blue tourmaline...


Just to add a couple of things to the thread on Namibian tourmaline that was
been running on and off some time ago (I've only just seen the thread):

The Neuschwaben mine produced dark blue tourmaline but it closed many years
ago. 1957 comes to mind, but I'd need to check to be sure of the exact date.
Genuine material from here is rarely if ever seen these days though I have
seen stones that (falsely) purport to be from there (so be warned!).
Neuschwaben was/is nearer to Karibib than Usakos, a few miles to the ssw of
that town. Later on, another pegmatite very close to the original one was
found, and this produced only red tourmaline of a characteristic
purplish-cranberry colour (gemmologists often call this material
"siberite"). This also gets labelled as being from Neuschwaben, and has been
the source of much confusion.

Sid Pieters blue tourmaline came from a mine closer to Usakos. It is in the
hills a couple of miles south of the main road from Karibib. One hell of a
drive to get up there, more cart track than road and a challenge even with
four-wheel drive. The mine was a series of opencuts on a swarm of pegmatitic
veins/veinlets. The 'main' vein - if you can call it that - was a classic
layered pegmatite some eight or nine feet wide.  The outer laters were tough
as anything, being solid quartz/feldspar/mica mix. It was worked by hand -
drill and blast, then muck out with a small front end loader. Many of the
veins carried tourmaline, though most of it was not gem (faceting) quality
(mind you, the rest was not bad cabbing material - I still have a couple of
hundred kilos of beautiful watermelon tourmaline holding down the floor in
my garage!). The majority of the tourmaline was naturally fractured and
really good material only came from rare cavities in the pegmatite core. In
these cavities the crystals were usually naturally detached and found lying
in the mud in the bottom of the vug. The blue gem tourmaline tends to come
in two shades, the light one being similar to aquamarine (though a bit more
greenish) and the dark one being a royal blue colour. The light coloured
crystals were never terminated, but some of the royal blue ones have perfect
basal (flat) terminations. Some have a coal black termination and these are
really pretty. Most of the crystals were small (1/2 inch in diameter or
under) though I do have some slices of one that we found that was the best
part of 2-1/2 inches across. I still have a lot of this material in a box
somewhere so I can dig some out and post a couple of pictures if there is
interest. In addition to the tourmaline, the pegmatites produced a range of
other minerals - nice quartz and muscovite crystals, lepidolite, etc. We
never found any beryl to speak of but there was quite a lot of beryllonite
in places - some of it in big enough chunks to facet or cab, the cabs being
cats eyes in a few case
oddities for a pegmatite - spinel (bright orange) and bismutite. The deposit
was worked from the mid-late 1970's through to the 1990's I believe, but I
am not sure of the current status (I'd have to check with Sid).

At the same time, Sid was operating two other mines, one being the Mile 72
mine (jeremeejevite - see the recent Min Rec article if you want more info;
all I can add is that we also found some beautiful purple-blue fluor-apatite
crystals there as well) and the second being another tourmaline mine. This
other mine was maybe 10 miles north of Usakos, west of the main road and it
produced dark green gem material. The crystals are highly pleochroic (brown,
black, green) so the gems have to be cut just right to get the best colour.
I've not seen such strong pleochroism in tourmaline before or after, so it's
possible that the chemical composition is a bit odd. This tourmaline is also
incredibly sensitive to thermal shock, so cutting it is a challenge as it
tends to crack just at the wrong time (usually during polishing, when
friction heats up the stone).

I can probably add to this information if anybody is interested - drop me a
line and I'll post it to the newsgroup.

Rick


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_______________________________________________
Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 28 04:07:55 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Sat Sep 28 03:07:55 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] locality information : gormanite
In-Reply-To: <001d01c265ce$be3afb40$5b8baec7@slc.edu>
Message-ID: 

The Rapid Creek, Big Fish River and Blow River areas, Richardsons Mountains,
Yukon Territory, Canada.
There has been a special issue of The Mineralogical Record devoted to this
area several years ago.
Greetings,

Rik DILLEN
Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be 

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen

>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ 
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of bob stevens
Sent: 27 September, 2002 4:37 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: [Rockhounds] locality information


I have a micromount of Gormanite and would like to ask one of our European
friends about the correct name and a little about the locality.  It is
written insuch a way that I am not sure about the spelling.

Gormanit
Hahnen Kofel II
Millstaidter See
Karnten

Thank you very much for your help.

Bob

_______________________________________________
Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sat Sep 28 09:39:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocksndogs)
Date: Sat Sep 28 08:39:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Add your Club to our links page
Message-ID: <001601c26705$1c3f40c0$90dc143f@computer>

If your club has a web page, we invite you to add it to our links page.  =
Go to www.cigmc.com and click on Mike Leary (our webmaster) and he will =
get you added on!  The more the merrier!


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Sun Sep 29 07:28:00 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Selby Bob)
Date: Sun Sep 29 06:28:00 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Two Rock Clubs Want to Share Links
Message-ID: <20020929132739.56632.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

We want to share links with other rock clubs for
mutual support. Recently our club, by cross linking
just got picked up by Google.  This means if we put
your link on our site there is a real good chance that
the next time Google indexes our site, your site will
be picked up.  Join with us and lets get picked up by
Yahoo, MSN, Lycos, ... and all for FREE!

Email links to rlselby@yahoo.com

Our clubs link: www.OlympicRocks.com

Thanks for joining together!!!

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 30 10:17:02 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen)
Date: Mon Sep 30 09:17:02 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] locality information : gormanite
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Sorry, folks, I hadn't realised that it was about a European locality.
Greetings,

Rik


-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Rik Dillen
Sent: 28 September, 2002 12:11 PM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] locality information : gormanite


The Rapid Creek, Big Fish River and Blow River areas, Richardsons Mountains,
Yukon Territory, Canada.
There has been a special issue of The Mineralogical Record devoted to this
area several years ago.
Greetings,

Rik DILLEN
Doornstraat 15
B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas
Belgium

Tel. + 32 3 7706007
E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be 

Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen

>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more)
>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp !
>>> Exchange list

Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ 
>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more !

MINERANT 2003 - Minerals and fossils show
10-11 May 2003 - Handelsbeurs - Meir - Antwerpen
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/minerantnl.html


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
-----Original Message-----
From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com
[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of bob stevens
Sent: 27 September, 2002 4:37 AM
To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com
Subject: [Rockhounds] locality information


I have a micromount of Gormanite and would like to ask one of our European
friends about the correct name and a little about the locality.  It is
written insuch a way that I am not sure about the spelling.

Gormanit
Hahnen Kofel II
Millstaidter See
Karnten

Thank you very much for your help.

Bob

_______________________________________________
Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds


_______________________________________________
Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List
WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds
Subscription Services:
http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds



From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 30 19:57:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox)
Date: Mon Sep 30 18:57:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] lava trip 2
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930155507.00abbb40@mail.aloha.net>

Here=92s yet another lava report.  Sorry it=92s so long and hope it=92s not=
 too=20
boring.
  Anyone 60 years or older, or with physical disabilities, will appreciate=
=20
this:
  I=92ve had surgery on both knees, and Bill has had restorative surgery on=
 one
  hip and hip replacement on the other side. We are 60.  With these=
 limitations
  it was probably foolhardy of us, but we decided to make another go at=
 seeing
  the lava going into the ocean yesterday morning, Sunday, 29 September.

Again we left home at 4am and arrived at the end of Chain of Craters Road at
  about 5:30.  There were at least a half dozen spots in the cliffs and=
 higher
  ground above the road where red-orange lava could be seen breaking to the
  surface in the dark, and towards the ocean were plumes of red steam clouds
  where lava was entering the sea.  We waited a few minutes to let our eyes
  adjust to the dark, and then took off for the red steam clouds.  The=
 =93shelly
  pahoehoe=94 makes for unsteady footing because little slices (a bit like=
 clam
  shells) of smooth lava tend to slide and crumble underfoot.  The lava=
 which
  originally formed a variety of uneven, ropy configurations, and cooled=
 with
  many cracks and crevices, had then been broken into large chunks and=
 tilted
  by subsequent flows, forming a landscape that is fascinating, confusing,=
 and
  nightmarish in appearance, especially in the dark (and for someone with
  walking difficulties)!  But with canes and walking sticks we made it to=
 the
  shore.  We walked on a black sand beach that still hissed when the waves=
 slid
  up it, and puffs of steam exuded from cracks at its edge.  There were a=
 few
  people standing on a small cliff above the surf, silhouetted against=20
great puffs
  of red and orange steam, and we climbed towards them.  After moving
  quickly across a strip of lava that was really very hot, we reached the=20
vantage
  point.  On the other side of the group of people was a tongue of lava=
 pouring
  over a small black mound into the water just 8 or 10 meters away.  The
  mound was about a meter tall, and a wave crashed and covered it briefly; =
 a
  cloud of steam arose with hissing and popping sounds.  As the steam blew
  away it appeared for a moment that everything was black, but then the
  yellow-orange lava burst forth again and poured onto the beach.  Then a=
 =93toe=94
  opened up closer to us=85maybe three meters away.  It swelled and became=
 an
  orange, dome-shaped lump, stretching and bulging, and gave out with a huge
  =93PUMPF=94 when a wave crashed upon it.  Small pieces of lava exploded=
 and
  slid as orange blobs into the water, coming back moments later as dark red
  and black rocks.  The breeze changed and blew the steam clouds and fumes
  over us, and everyone began coughing.  Bill and I had brought damp cloths
  with us, which we held over our faces, and this was a great help.

There was camaraderie among the people there.  We handed cameras to each
  other to take pictures. When a man slipped and fell down we all fussed=
 over
  him with great concern, though it was obvious right away that he was fine.
   Voices were hushed, almost out of respect, even though wind and steam and
  surf put up a constant competing noise=85people stepped closer to each=
 other
  to talk, rather than shout.  One man---wearing a tank top, shorts, and=
 rubber
  slippers---had an expensive camera with a large zoom lens, but did not=
 have a
  camera bag or case, nor a lens cap; not even a protective filter on the=
 lens!
   He happily trotted off over new lava to get closer to the flow, through=
=20
clouds
  of fumes;  a chunk of stuff broke off the cliff he was standing on, and he
  laughed=85but turned back to safer territory.

The sun came up, and we headed back.  In the daylight we could observe
  more details.  Some large cracks had yellow (sulfur?) powdery coverings
  along the edges.  Some cracks were emitting puffs of steam, and others=
 were
  glowing red deep inside.  There was a place where a smooth, iridescent
  surface maybe two square meters in area, had three small chunks of lava
  perched on top;  two were firmly attached to the smooth layer beneath, but
  the third tumbled down the slope in the breeze.  We guessed that the=
 chunks
  were from an explosion and when they landed, either the chunks or the
  smooth surface were still hot enough that two of them became glued in=
 place.
  The chunks looked like pieces of natural sponge, full of holes, but were=
 so
  sharp that when I reached down to touch one lightly, my finger came back
  with a tiny dot of blood from a prick.  We found a patch of black sand,=
 maybe
  three meters square, which must have been formed only a day or two ago at
  the ocean=92s edge, but was now several meters inland and above where the
  beach is now.

If anyone would like to see pictures we took, you can contact me off list=
 and
  I=92ll send some to you.  Or didn=92t someone=85was it Teresa?=85say they=
 would
  set up a site where people could post pictures to the list?  (I believe=20
it was
  before Bill and I changed computers and lost many files, so I can=92t=
 check=20
back.)

BTW: The volcano experts here began announcing over the weekend that
  Mauna Loa is inflating and may show activity soon.  It is overdue, as the=
=20
last
  eruption there was 18 years ago.  Bill remembers looking over at that flow
  from the university telescope when he was observing on Mauna Kea, and
  everyone in Hilo could see the lava glowing above the city at night.

Aloha, Kitty


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From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 30 20:36:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski)
Date: Mon Sep 30 19:36:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] lava trip 2
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020930155507.00abbb40@mail.aloha.net>
Message-ID: <3D9909D4.482F@Tomaszewski.net>

Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote:
> 
> Here’s yet another lava report.  Sorry it’s so long and hope it’s 
> not too boring.

Don't worry about the length, you have done a wonderful job in these
reports of balancing personal experience with information; they have
been a pleasure to read.

BTW, if you don't get a better offer within a few days, I'll be glad to
post (some of) your pictures on my (non-commercial) website for a month
or so. Contact me off-list if interested.

From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com  Mon Sep 30 20:54:01 2002
From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD)
Date: Mon Sep 30 19:54:01 2002
Subject: [Rockhounds] Lava Reports
Message-ID: <023001c268f6$5ac1f7a0$06e01843@uswest.net>

Kitty, you need not worry about the length for your volcano reports.  =
Your writing style makes a perfect read.  And to those who have not seen =
this kind of Hawaiian lava, Kitty's reports are like seeing the event =
for real.  I can remember my last viewing at the Chain of Craters road =
as lava made it to the ocean.  My eyebrows were burnt chrispy along with =
my mustache and I had a very red face for days.  The sight and sounds =
would last for a lifetime, so thanks Kitty for the refresher memories.

Danny Steward / Seattle


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