From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 1 11:05:59 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (armando afonso) Date: Fri Aug 1 10:05:59 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gypsy's intro on collecting pebbles. References: Message-ID: <000701c3584f$0aaa4ee0$97e1fea9@1> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dawn M. Fredricks To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Gypsy's intro on collecting pebbles. > (btw are there support groups if I ever try to kick it?) > > While I can say this is a support group, It's probably as close as you will > come to one! > > Welcome! > > Dawn > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 1 20:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (nancy) Date: Fri Aug 1 19:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] responses to Joe, Gypsy, and Kreigh Message-ID: <3F2B2552.000003.49889@nancy baltz.rochester.rr.com> In response to Joe=0D "What is the collective recommendation of the list -=0D are there any "must sees" that I would just be crazy to skip?"=0D =0D Between New Hampshire and Syracuse is a town called Herkimer. It's right off the thruway. I have been there. Go to the Herkimer Diamond Mines. For something like $7 you can pick away in the mines to your hearts content. = I found lots of these little gems. They are double terminated quartz crysta= ls and they are beautiful. Right past that exit ( well on your way home) is another that will take you to Howe Caverns. It is underground and they ha= ve the most incredible stalagtites and stalagmites. great story, too and you can pan for stones. Oh, I forgot an absolutley awesome museum in Herkimer= =2E And you can purchase geodes and crack them or they will use a diamond saw and open them.I quess you might say that the whole experience I had there was awesome,LOL.=0D Have a great time!!=0D Nancy from NY=0D =0D In response to David-Gypsy=0D =0D WOW!!!!! That's all I can say and I agree with Suzy, they will welcome yo= u with open arms, all you will have to do is tell them stories.=0D Nancy=0D =0D and in response to Kreigh=0D Ok you have shamed me into it. I will bring out the rock tumbler and give= it a shot, But I hope I can do this without destroying my stones.=0D LOL=0D Nancy=0D And thanks so much for all the welcomes, I know I will like it here! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/gif image/jpeg --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 04:41:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Aug 2 03:41:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introduction and a question Message-ID: <84.164fd88e.2c5cef01@cs.com> Cerium oxide makes very nice, shiny quartz! BTW, I am really enjoying being a part of the group....I've loved rocks since i could pick the up ! Addicted in Colorado Dre --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 14:57:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sat Aug 2 13:57:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid Message-ID: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hi folks, I'm new to this list and glad to be here. My name is John Siebel. My = wife Julie, dogs, cat, rocks and I live in Santa, Idaho (south a ways = from Coeur d' Alene) where we moved last spring after some years in the = Portland, Vancouver area. I am, by trade, a graphic artist, writer and = environmental enhancement engineer (I keep the cabin from falling over = and the flea beetles from hauling off the garden). Julie is a computer = graphics consultant, technical writer and self-proclaimed, = board-certified geek. Both are self-employed until further notice. We have collected extensively in Oregon and Washington (zeolites, = quartz, calcite, agate, petrified wood, fossils, younameit) and many = states from here to the Midwest and back. We've done a small amount of = prospecting locally - mostly garnet, schorl, muscovite, staurolite and = kyanite - as well as a recent trip to Montana (sort of local) for = sapphire and agate. I expect we'll get out more once we get unpacked and = the dust settles. And we have recently acquired a load of lapidary = equipment that I'm slowly learning how to drive. In the mean time I'm = happy to join such an active list. Thanks for having me and I'm looking = forward to sharing. John Santa, Idaho --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 15:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Sat Aug 2 14:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> John, Great to see you here, welcome. Let us know how well you did with Montana and collecting there. Would it be worth a long trip? Thanks, Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 15:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Sat Aug 2 14:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid In-Reply-To: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <2BD2FED0-C533-11D7-8938-000393A96092@mac.com> Hi John! Good to se so much of you! We may be moving to Idaho soon. My company disbanded and now i can do my three papers out of my house and one paper is specifically for Idaho so WATCH OUT!!! lol.... we are looking at Priest lake to kalispell or maybe from about clarkia to about santa, towards the east OR more likely near Boise, like the featherville area or so. Let me know if you see any good deals or hear of any we are looking at sub $100,000 with as much acreage as possible with as much water nearby as possible... LOL KM On Saturday, August 2, 2003, at 11:55 AM, John Siebel wrote: > I am, by trade, a graphic artist, writer and environmental > enhancement engineer (I keep the cabin from falling over and the flea > beetles from hauling off the garden). Julie is a computer graphics > consultant, technical writer and self-proclaimed, board-certified > geek. Both are self-employed until further notice. The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it. - Woodrow Wilson --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 18:39:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sat Aug 2 17:39:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> Message-ID: <001d01c35946$b3290aa0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Thanks for the welcome Terrie. > Let us know how well you did with Montana and collecting there. Would it > be worth a long trip? This from 7/22/03 and pardon the cross posting: Camped at Canyon Ferry Lake, east of Helena, on a gravel beach full of agate. Spent Saturday driving around trying to find The Eldorado Sapphire Mine without luck, in 106 degree heat - and that in Refrigerator Canyon! Beautiful area though. I am since told that The Eldorado is no longer - replaced by recreational cabins. Sunday morning was spent collecting agate, then off to the Spokane Bar Mine. We got there in the early afternoon and they were not letting anyone in the pit as it was 140 degrees down there. Spent some time talking to the owners in the rock shop (good folks) and checking out a small but fun collection of gems and fossils. My nephew bought a $25 bag of gravel that he screened on the beach this morning between swims and more agate hunting. He found one nice blue sapphire (making his wife realize just how cool this all is) and Julie found a small green one. He saved half of the bag for later. We sent the Nephew Family on their way east to Lewistown, MT this afternoon with a list of areas to check out around the Judith Mountains, limped in to Helena to patch a flat tire, stopped along the way to check out a gold tailings pile near Garnet, MT and got home at sunset to find that the deer had wiped out most of the garden while we were gone. At least the heat didn't kill it. I just unloaded the agate the other day and some is tumbler stuff, some is yard rock and there's a handful of winners with colors ranging from dull oatmeal to bright gold, rust to bright red, some green, white and clear. Very waxy - some look like large blobs of chewing gum. Many are fist-sized or larger including a nice piece of petrified driftwood that Julie found. I'll be taking best of show to the saw shortly to see what's inside. If the gods are smiling and I hold my attitude at the right angle, the largest looks like it may be dendritic (moss agate). Also found nice jasper in red/greens/golds as well as some very cool and colorful re-melt. Terrie, I have always loved Montana for it's scenery, people and variey of rocks and fossils. It's always been worth the trip to me. Good to hear from you. John Santa, Idaho From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 19:08:43 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sat Aug 2 18:08:43 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid References: <2BD2FED0-C533-11D7-8938-000393A96092@mac.com> Message-ID: <002301c3594a$12d35e80$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hey Kris! I just can't seem to get away from you. You're like nation-wide! >We may be moving to Idaho soon. >...we are looking at sub $100,000 with as much acreage as possible > with as much water nearby as possible... We got our place for half of that - 2-story log cabin on 5-acres of trees with new 2-story shop (office upstairs and woodshop/lapidary down), solar, well, generator, back up in the hills in Pokey Creek. There are a number of places for sale up here, and you could get a lot of dirt for a 100Gs, but you probably want electricity and a roof. You might check with Dean Schick at UpRiver Realty. He handles a lot of places nearby. Find him (and others) through http://www.stmariesidaho.com/realestate.htm . When are you out here for your next visit? We should meet. Let's dig some garnet or hit Fossil Bowl (you can introduce me). Later - John Santa, ID From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 19:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Edward Reznichenko) Date: Sat Aug 2 18:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Ebay mineral auction Message-ID: <3F2C662D.239018AF@fairfaxminerals.com> AD: I am re-starting my mineral auctions and re-designing my website (www.fairfaxminerals.com) and have placed several inexpensive minerals on ebay for your consideration. Here is the link: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=fairfaxminerals&sort=3&rows=25&since=-1&rd=1 I have quite a large inventory of world-wide minerals that I will be placing on ebay and on my website, so please send your inquiries to me off the list. Localities include: elmwood; dal'negorsk and other russian stuff; english classics;tsumeb and other namibian stuff; china; bulgaria; illinois fluorite district; and others. thanks much --ed reznichenko / Fairfax Mineral Co. / edvax@fairfaxminerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 20:09:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Aug 2 19:09:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid...? In-Reply-To: <001d01c35946$b3290aa0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030802162208.009f8270@mail.aloha.net> Hi list and Aaron, We've gotten three messages responding to "New Kid," apparently John Siebel, but never received the original. Did anyone else have this problem, or is it only our system? Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 2 20:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Sat Aug 2 19:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid...? References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030802162208.009f8270@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3F2C78A4.2060001@cox.net> Kitty, Welcome back. I did receive the original and can find it for you if you would like. Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 3 09:23:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Sun Aug 3 08:23:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid...? References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030802162208.009f8270@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <002d01c359d2$317289a0$b8305841@powertech.net> > Hi list and Aaron, > > We've gotten three messages responding to "New Kid," apparently John > Siebel, but never received the original. Did anyone else have this > problem, or is it only our system? > > Aloha, Kitty Probably your system; I got the original OK. Margaret > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 3 09:41:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 3 08:41:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid Message-ID: <1d2.ebaf3d2.2c5e86d0@aol.com> Hi John, Just wondering if I could ask you to tell me more about the staurolites and Kyanite..thanks -Ron In a message dated 8/2/2003 5:01:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, john@pandemoniumgraphics.com writes: > Hi folks, > > I'm new to this list and glad to be here. My name is John Siebel. My wife > Julie, dogs, cat, rocks and I live in Santa, Idaho (south a ways from Coeur d' > Alene) where we moved last spring after some years in the Portland, Vancouver > area. I am, by trade, a graphic artist, writer and environmental enhancement > engineer (I keep the cabin from falling over and the flea beetles from > hauling off the garden). Julie is a computer graphics consultant, technical writer > and self-proclaimed, board-certified geek. Both are self-employed until > further notice. > > We have collected extensively in Oregon and Washington (zeolites, quartz, > calcite, agate, petrified wood, fossils, younameit) and many states from here > to the Midwest and back. We've done a small amount of prospecting locally - > mostly garnet, schorl, muscovite, staurolite and kyanite - as well as a recent > trip to Montana (sort of local) for sapphire and agate. I expect we'll get > out more once we get unpacked and the dust settles. And we have recently > acquired a load of lapidary equipment that I'm slowly learning how to drive. In the > mean time I'm happy to join such an active list. Thanks for having me and > I'm looking forward to sharing. > > John > Santa, Idaho > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 3 10:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Aug 3 09:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid In-Reply-To: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <63A32EDA-C5D2-11D7-A6B4-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> Hi John, Welcome to the region. Apparently you've hit most of the sites in N Idaho already. Lanny in Coeur d'Alene On Saturday, August 2, 2003, at 11:55 AM, John Siebel wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm new to this list and glad to be here. My name is John Siebel. My > wife Julie, dogs, cat, rocks and I live in Santa, Idaho (south a ways > from Coeur d' Alene) where we moved last spring after some years in > the Portland, Vancouver area. I am, by trade, a graphic artist, writer > and environmental enhancement engineer (I keep the cabin from falling > over and the flea beetles from hauling off the garden). Julie is a > computer graphics consultant, technical writer and self-proclaimed, > board-certified geek. Both are self-employed until further notice. > ... From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 3 19:49:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (James Morrow) Date: Sun Aug 3 18:49:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Contin-Tail Show, Buena Vista,CO Message-ID: <0D643F165CB0921409CB7CC93BF84289@jmorrow.starband.net> Ther's is a wonderful show in Buena Vista, Colorado this coming weekend, August 8,9 and 10 at the rodeo grounds. It is an outdoor show with generally more than a hundred vendors. It's also Miner Days in Buena Vista. This is one of the best shows I go to and well worth the trip if you're within driving distance (approx. 2 hrs. west of Denver asnd south of Leadville) Jim Morrow Santa Fe, NM From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 3 22:06:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rainyday6) Date: Sun Aug 3 21:06:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a tumbler Message-ID: <006801c35a3d$1ba970a0$48b5fea9@com> hi all,im new to this club and i am looking for 1 or 2 used rock = tumblers. as i cant afford any new ones.if any one has some or knows = of someone who does, or rock shows in the nort of seattle area, i would = appreciate any input. thanks Steve Laycock --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 09:55:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Mon Aug 4 08:55:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Show Info Message-ID: <00b701c35aa1$62bf8920$9a6a1e43@s4b5j4> Just a reminder that the Orcutt Mineral Society of Santa Maria Valley is = conducting their 36th annual show this weekend. Nipomo, California with = its great (cool) weather and friendly people (unless they have marcasite = or sagenite on their land) will host the 3 day tailgate and Gem Show = beginning August 8th. Approximately 50 outside and 9 inside dealers will = present their wares from several western states. There will be a great = BBQ dinner presented Saturday evening with Top Sirloin, Salad, Poquito = Beans, Bread and Coffee for only $7.50. Don't miss it! Lots of fun for = the whole family. Location: 298 S. Thompson Ave. Nipomo, CA 93444 Time: 10 AM to 5 PM daily ?? Rocks4u@prodigy.net website: http://omsinc.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 10:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Mon Aug 4 09:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dr. Bill's back on rockhound list In-Reply-To: <00b701c35aa1$62bf8920$9a6a1e43@s4b5j4> Message-ID: Hi all, I've been off-list a lot of the summer as I've been both out-of-town and unhooked due to my faculty office being re-modeled. Hope all are well and finding and buying good rocks. I 've modified my web-site: http://www.uwrf.edu/~william.s.cordua/, posting recent newsletter articles I've written. Those can be used by any one for their own club's newsletter. Notice my URL address has changed. I will be at the up-coming Mid-West Federation Show in Cottage Grove, Minnesota soon (August 15 - 17 - http://www.geocities.com/rmwurm/mwf.html ). I'll have a table set-up to do basic specimen i.d. throughout the show. I'll also be giving a talk on the geology and minerals of the Flambeau Mine, Wisconsin. Looks like a great show. Hope to see a some of you there and get a chance to put some faces on the E-mail handles. Incidentally, I know a lot of you like to play "stump the prof" by showing me wierd things when you already know what they are ("Hmm - let's see if he'll recognize that pink galena found only in adit A in the Whoopy-Doopie Mine in Siberia - ha ha"). Have a little mercy, O.K.? Best wishes to all - Dr. Bill Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 12:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Cornish) Date: Mon Aug 4 11:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: Message-ID: <00cf01c35ab7$5c1d6090$a5a2dccf@rockman> Hi William (and everyone!), Thanks for the update notice on your website and welcome back. In checking your site, I noticed your interest in recieving questions, I've got one in a couple parts maybe you could help me with. So, with fingers crossed I'm not going to make a fool of myself, here goes... Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness scale? Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? Does water play a role in effecting the hardness of a mineral? Thank you. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "William S. Cordua" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Dr. Bill's back on rockhound list > Hi all, > I've been off-list a lot of the summer as I've been both > out-of-town and unhooked due to my faculty office being re-modeled. Hope > all are well and finding and buying good rocks. > I 've modified my web-site: http://www.uwrf.edu/~william.s.cordua/, > posting recent newsletter articles I've written. Those can be used by any > one for their own club's newsletter. Notice my URL address has changed. > I will be at the up-coming Mid-West Federation Show in Cottage > Grove, Minnesota soon (August 15 - 17 - > http://www.geocities.com/rmwurm/mwf.html ). I'll have a table set-up to do > basic specimen i.d. throughout the show. I'll also be giving a talk on the > geology and minerals of the Flambeau Mine, Wisconsin. Looks like a great > show. Hope to see a some of you there and get a chance to put some faces on > the E-mail handles. Incidentally, I know a lot of you like to play "stump > the prof" by showing me wierd things when you already know what they are > ("Hmm - let's see if he'll recognize that pink galena found only in adit A > in the Whoopy-Doopie Mine in Siberia - ha ha"). Have a little mercy, O.K.? > Best wishes to all - Dr. Bill > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 12:41:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Cornish) Date: Mon Aug 4 11:41:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question Part 2 References: Message-ID: <00d301c35ab8$592ab800$a5a2dccf@rockman> Hi William and everyone, That was so much fun (putting my ignorance out there for all to see) that I'd like to try another question... When is a fossil not a fossil and then if it's not a fossil, what-the-heck-is it? Example 1, I've found petrified wood here in Washington State that on the rare occasion has areas which were not agatized and which can actually be used to start a fire. Is this a fossil? Example 2, I've heard stories of mammoth and mastodons melting free of the permafrost and being found by natives who were able to carve cook-able meat from the carcass. Is this a fossil? Thanks again, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "William S. Cordua" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Dr. Bill's back on rockhound list > Hi all, > I've been off-list a lot of the summer as I've been both > out-of-town and unhooked due to my faculty office being re-modeled. Hope > all are well and finding and buying good rocks. > I 've modified my web-site: http://www.uwrf.edu/~william.s.cordua/, > posting recent newsletter articles I've written. Those can be used by any > one for their own club's newsletter. Notice my URL address has changed. > I will be at the up-coming Mid-West Federation Show in Cottage > Grove, Minnesota soon (August 15 - 17 - > http://www.geocities.com/rmwurm/mwf.html ). I'll have a table set-up to do > basic specimen i.d. throughout the show. I'll also be giving a talk on the > geology and minerals of the Flambeau Mine, Wisconsin. Looks like a great > show. Hope to see a some of you there and get a chance to put some faces on > the E-mail handles. Incidentally, I know a lot of you like to play "stump > the prof" by showing me wierd things when you already know what they are > ("Hmm - let's see if he'll recognize that pink galena found only in adit A > in the Whoopy-Doopie Mine in Siberia - ha ha"). Have a little mercy, O.K.? > Best wishes to all - Dr. Bill > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 14:15:30 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Mon Aug 4 13:15:30 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <00cf01c35ab7$5c1d6090$a5a2dccf@rockman> References: Message-ID: Hi John, Hard questions! >Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness scale? Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is scratchable, with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. > >Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? Yes. Ice is a perfectly good mineral, and is described in the Encyclopedia of Minerals and Dana's. It's hardness is 1.5 on the Mohs' Scale, so you can scratch it with your fingernail (2.5). Brrr. > >Does water play a role in effecting the hardness of a mineral? The properties of a compound is different from that of its individual elements. Take water itself. Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. Combine them at room temperature and pressure and you have a liquid different from either gas. Plus you can breath oxygen, but you can't breath water, eh? Now let's consider a mineral like muscovite mica. The "water" is well-bonded into the mineral's structure, showing up as (OH) in the formula. This isn't the same as little blobs of liquid water in the mineral. Muscovite's hardness reflects the structural arrangment and properties of all its components. In gypsum, the water is more loosely bonded (it comes off easily if you heat the mineral and shows up as a H20 in the formula). Still, gypsum's hardness also reflects the structural arrangment and properties of all its components. It is true that water-bearing minerals are often soft, but some are hard. Topaz has (OH) in it but comes in at 8 on the Mohs' scale. Water can, and often does, occur as true liquid inclusion in minerals. If visible, these are called enhydros. These are impurities, and not a part of the mineral's crystalline structure. They can functionally weaken a specimen, causing it to break when one is attempting to polish it, but they don't affect the "scratchability" or Mohs' hardness of the mineral itself. Crumbling and cracking are different from scratching. Well, that was fun. Best wishes - Bill Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 14:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Mon Aug 4 13:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? In-Reply-To: <00d301c35ab8$592ab800$a5a2dccf@rockman> References: Message-ID: My definition of "fossil" is "any remains or traces of prehistoric life". By that definition, both of these are fossils, but I am not. Ta Ta. Back to work. - Dr. Bill > >When is a fossil not a fossil and then if it's not a fossil, >what-the-heck-is it? > >Example 1, I've found petrified wood here in Washington State that on the >rare occasion has areas which were not agatized and which can actually be >used to start a fire. Is this a fossil? > >Example 2, I've heard stories of mammoth and mastodons melting free of the >permafrost and being found by natives who were able to carve cook-able meat >from the carcass. Is this a fossil? > >Thanks again, > >John Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 14:32:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Aug 4 13:32:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... Message-ID: <48.207b3888.2c601c43@aol.com> Let's follow up on that one. What about zeolites, or many other minerals whose formulae end with +N(H2O)? When those minerals dessicate into their meta- forms, don't their hardness ratings change? Ed --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 14:46:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rocks4u) Date: Mon Aug 4 13:46:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? References: Message-ID: <005101c35aca$1c7d4050$b1711e43@s4b5j4> The assumption that wood is petrified when no silica exists may be a stretch. If it burns its probably not petrified but still just simply wood. Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "William S. Cordua" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:19 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? > My definition of "fossil" is "any remains or traces of prehistoric life". > By that definition, both of these are fossils, but I am not. > > Ta Ta. Back to work. - Dr. Bill > > > >When is a fossil not a fossil and then if it's not a fossil, > >what-the-heck-is it? > > > >Example 1, I've found petrified wood here in Washington State that on the > >rare occasion has areas which were not agatized and which can actually be > >used to start a fire. Is this a fossil? > > > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 15:19:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Mon Aug 4 14:19:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <48.207b3888.2c601c43@aol.com> Message-ID: >Let's follow up on that one. What about zeolites, or many other minerals >whose formulae end with +N(H2O)? When those minerals dessicate into their >meta- >forms, don't their hardness ratings change? > >Ed You're right - the hardnesses do change when these minerals lose (or gain) water. That's because their structures alter so that they become different minerals whose hardness is determined by their new structure. For example, dehydrate gypsum (monoclinic) and you get anhydrite (orthorhombic). Dehydrate epsomite (orthorhombic - MgSO4.7H20) and you get hexahydrite (monoclinic - MgSO4.6H2O). The zeolites can have so much water linked into their structure that this process may not be complete that fast and you have a mixture of the old and new structures, with the property of the mixture reflecting the properties of the components. Think laumontite, which can form such nice crystals that collapse into such a nice pile of rubble in our Perky boxes. - Bill C. Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 16:05:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Mon Aug 4 15:05:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid In-Reply-To: <1d2.ebaf3d2.2c5e86d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <9E531D90-C6C7-11D7-B7F3-000393B396CA@mac.com> yea - the good staurolite is in hard rock- how to carefully get it out & the soft staurolite easily crumbles, what gives? KM On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 08:40 AM, Hammerron@aol.com wrote: > Just wondering if I could ask you to tell me more about the > staurolites and > Kyanite..thanks "People think love is an emotion. Love is good sense." -- Ken Kesey --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 16:30:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Aug 4 15:30:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... Message-ID: <1de.df34e18.2c60382b@aol.com> In a message dated 8/4/03 2:33:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu writes: > . For example, dehydrate gypsum (monoclinic) and you get anhydrite > (orthorhombic). Dehydrate epsomite (orthorhombic - MgSO4.7H20) and you get > hexahydrite (monoclinic - MgSO4.6H2O). Wow, I'm glad I don't need to understand all that to pick up agates or opal. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 16:32:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Aug 4 15:32:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... Message-ID: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> In a message dated 8/4/2003 2:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, j& gcornish@tenforward.com writes: > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness > scale? Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. John Betts http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 20:27:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tina Tuttle) Date: Mon Aug 4 19:27:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] evaporites and water Message-ID: In response to Dr. Bills discussion of water molecules and mineral structure, another great example are the evaporites. Kernite, borax, tincalcinite, trona, mirabilite, and hanksite all alter with changes in water molecules. My question to stump the prof is: Hanksite (from Searles Lake, CA), KNa22 (SO4)9 (CO3) 2Cl is water soluble and alters upon extended exposure to the atmosphere by developing a light white film, and later, a hard to remove yellowish crust which can be imperfectly prevented by using either an acrylic sealant or keeping it in oil. Various sources indicate this is due to either absoption of water from the humid air, or conversely, a dispersion of water from the mineral structure. With significant alternation, there is some degradation of the mineral's surface and I've heard of some specimens falling apart after decades of exposure. Any ideas on the chemical cause of this? (specimens gladly provided to help solve the puzzle!!) tina tuttle formerly of the Mojave, now chilling in the midwest tundra _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 21:48:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Aug 4 20:48:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite References: <1d2.ebaf3d2.2c5e86d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002101c35af3$5bd2cbc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hey Ron, Sorry for the delay in answering - our modem toasted from the excess heat and we were down for a while. I'm no expert on either staurolite or kyanite. We found small hard crystals, some twins, in loose gravel at one site, and larger weathered crystals in schist at another. I plan to try a soak in kerosene to see if that loosens things up (as one would extricate a fossil from shale). Any thoughts on this? The kyanite at Freezeout Mt. was small and unimpressive but we'll be back. John Santa, Idaho ----- Original Message ----- > Hi John, > > Just wondering if I could ask you to tell me more about the staurolites and > Kyanite..thanks > > -Ron From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 21:58:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Mon Aug 4 20:58:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <002101c35af3$5bd2cbc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: same for Moses Butte, a little farther east, but the 'sugar' garnets there are the size of melons! KM On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:46 PM, John Siebel wrote: > The kyanite at Freezeout Mt. was small and unimpressive but we'll be > back. We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world. -- Vice President Dan Quayle, 9/21/88 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 22:23:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Mon Aug 4 21:23:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <002101c35af3$5bd2cbc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <76B665E3-C6FC-11D7-833A-000393B396CA@mac.com> there are nice garnets on the 'saddle' on the road to freezout on the east side of the road KM On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:46 PM, John Siebel wrote: > The kyanite at Freezeout Mt. was small and unimpressive but we'll be > back. Drink and the world drinks with you. Swear off and you drink alone. --- Anon --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 22:53:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Aug 4 21:53:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <76B665E3-C6FC-11D7-833A-000393B396CA@mac.com> References: <002101c35af3$5bd2cbc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.9.2.20030804215127.01c5a330@mail.spiritone.com> Not to mention the best huckleberry picking in the lower 48 :) And the best chance to see a black bear up close and personal... At 09:22 PM 8/4/2003, you wrote: there are nice garnets on the 'saddle' on the road to freezout on the east side of the road KM On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:46 PM, John Siebel wrote: The kyanite at Freezeout Mt. was small and unimpressive but we'll be back.Drink and the world drinks with you. Swear off and you drink alone. --- Anon Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com WWW http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 4 23:02:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Mon Aug 4 22:02:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.9.2.20030804215127.01c5a330@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: LOL AMEN to both!! KM On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 09:52 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > Not to mention the best huckleberry picking in the lower 48 > :) And the best chance to see a black bear up close and > personal... Opacity is an irresistible challenge From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 08:55:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Tue Aug 5 07:55:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid References: <63A32EDA-C5D2-11D7-A6B4-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> Message-ID: <001501c35b50$83ca7260$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Thanks Lanny, I'm hoping there are a few more sites to check out yet. We only did a drive-by of the CdA Mining District and we're looking forward to spending some time up there. Julie is itching to head south soon as well. Thanks again for the welcome. John Santa, Idaho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny" > Hi John, > > Welcome to the region. Apparently you've hit most of the sites in N > Idaho already. > > Lanny > in Coeur d'Alene From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 09:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Cornish) Date: Tue Aug 5 08:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: Message-ID: <013901c35b68$76473390$a5a2dccf@rockman> Hi Dr.Bill, O.k., I think I'm with ya on all this (thanks to your great explanations!), but... If ice is a mineral which converts to water, a non-mineral, (under the right conditions) is this change pseudomorphic? Or is there more appropriate terminology to describe this? Are there other examples of non-mineral/mineral changes in this sense of which your aware? I really appreciate your taking the time. Have a great day! John ----- Original Message ----- From: "William S. Cordua" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > Hi John, > Hard questions! > > >Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness scale? > > Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or > scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can > scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. > Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is scratchable, > with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. > > > >Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? > > Yes. Ice is a perfectly good mineral, and is described in the Encyclopedia > of Minerals and Dana's. It's hardness is 1.5 on the Mohs' Scale, so you can > scratch it with your fingernail (2.5). Brrr. > > > >Does water play a role in effecting the hardness of a mineral? > > The properties of a compound is different from that of its individual > elements. Take water itself. Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. Combine > them at room temperature and pressure and you have a liquid different from > either gas. Plus you can breath oxygen, but you can't breath water, eh? > > Now let's consider a mineral like muscovite mica. The "water" is > well-bonded into the mineral's structure, showing up as (OH) in the > formula. This isn't the same as little blobs of liquid water in the > mineral. Muscovite's hardness reflects the structural arrangment and > properties of all its components. In gypsum, the water is more loosely > bonded (it comes off easily if you heat the mineral and shows up as a H20 > in the formula). Still, gypsum's hardness also reflects the structural > arrangment and properties of all its components. It is true that > water-bearing minerals are often soft, but some are hard. Topaz has (OH) in > it but comes in at 8 on the Mohs' scale. > > Water can, and often does, occur as true liquid inclusion in minerals. If > visible, these are called enhydros. These are impurities, and not a part of > the mineral's crystalline structure. They can functionally weaken a > specimen, causing it to break when one is attempting to polish it, but they > don't affect the "scratchability" or Mohs' hardness of the mineral itself. > Crumbling and cracking are different from scratching. > > Well, that was fun. Best wishes - Bill > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:06:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:06:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <013901c35b68$76473390$a5a2dccf@rockman> Message-ID: <000801c35b6b$45e80e10$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Am comining in late on this. What if you melted some eosphorite of some diopside? I think a pseudomorph would have to be able to maintain its "morphness" by having the rigidity that a solid implies. A change in state is not the same as replacement. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Cornish" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > Hi Dr.Bill, > > O.k., I think I'm with ya on all this (thanks to your great explanations!), > but... > > If ice is a mineral which converts to water, a non-mineral, (under the right > conditions) is this change pseudomorphic? > Or is there more appropriate terminology to describe this? > > Are there other examples of non-mineral/mineral changes in this sense of > which your aware? > > I really appreciate your taking the time. Have a great day! > > John > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William S. Cordua" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > > > > Hi John, > > Hard questions! > > > > >Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness > scale? > > > > Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or > > scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can > > scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. > > Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is > scratchable, > > with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. > > > > > >Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? > > > > Yes. Ice is a perfectly good mineral, and is described in the Encyclopedia > > of Minerals and Dana's. It's hardness is 1.5 on the Mohs' Scale, so you > can > > scratch it with your fingernail (2.5). Brrr. > > > > > >Does water play a role in effecting the hardness of a mineral? > > > > The properties of a compound is different from that of its individual > > elements. Take water itself. Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. Combine > > them at room temperature and pressure and you have a liquid different from > > either gas. Plus you can breath oxygen, but you can't breath water, eh? > > > > Now let's consider a mineral like muscovite mica. The "water" is > > well-bonded into the mineral's structure, showing up as (OH) in the > > formula. This isn't the same as little blobs of liquid water in the > > mineral. Muscovite's hardness reflects the structural arrangment and > > properties of all its components. In gypsum, the water is more loosely > > bonded (it comes off easily if you heat the mineral and shows up as a H20 > > in the formula). Still, gypsum's hardness also reflects the structural > > arrangment and properties of all its components. It is true that > > water-bearing minerals are often soft, but some are hard. Topaz has (OH) > in > > it but comes in at 8 on the Mohs' scale. > > > > Water can, and often does, occur as true liquid inclusion in minerals. If > > visible, these are called enhydros. These are impurities, and not a part > of > > the mineral's crystalline structure. They can functionally weaken a > > specimen, causing it to break when one is attempting to polish it, but > they > > don't affect the "scratchability" or Mohs' hardness of the mineral itself. > > Crumbling and cracking are different from scratching. > > > > Well, that was fun. Best wishes - Bill > > > > Dr. William S. Cordua > > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > > 410 South Third Street > > River Falls, WI 54022 > > 715-425-3139 > > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:17:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:17:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] evaporites and water References: Message-ID: <002701c35b6c$d4512870$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Dear Tina, The non-specific reply as to why minerals fall apart on dehydration must be due to the absence of the water and electrostatic forces rearranging the configuration of what is left as well as the actual loss of the bonding energy provided by the water, not just it's "place holding" property. I haven't seen any indications as to what the white powdery coating on hanksite actually is. Any knowledge on this? I would guess the structure is no longer similar to hanksite's, although there are minerals which partially dehydrate without loss of structural integrity - a topic we've briefly been over in recent months. By the way, using "evaporite" as a class of minerals rather than a kind of deposit is metonymy. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Tuttle" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:26 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] evaporites and water > In response to Dr. Bills discussion of water molecules and mineral > structure, another great example are the evaporites. Kernite, borax, > tincalcinite, trona, mirabilite, and hanksite all alter with changes in > water molecules. My question to stump the prof is: > Hanksite (from Searles Lake, CA), KNa22 (SO4)9 (CO3) 2Cl is water soluble > and alters upon extended exposure to the atmosphere by developing a light > white film, and later, a hard to remove yellowish crust which can be > imperfectly prevented by using either an acrylic sealant or keeping it in > oil. Various sources indicate this is due to either absoption of water from > the humid air, or conversely, a dispersion of water from the mineral > structure. With significant alternation, there is some degradation of the > mineral's surface and I've heard of some specimens falling apart after > decades of exposure. > Any ideas on the chemical cause of this? > (specimens gladly provided to help solve the puzzle!!) > > tina tuttle > formerly of the Mojave, > now chilling in the midwest tundra > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:23:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:23:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> Message-ID: <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While ice may have a hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice dramatically increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. That's why you can tell the coldness of a winter's day by the sound of such hard grains crunching together. Just like walking on quartz sand. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > In a message dated 8/4/2003 2:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, j& > gcornish@tenforward.com writes: > > > > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness > > scale? > > Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. > > John Betts > http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:29:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:29:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <1de.df34e18.2c60382b@aol.com> Message-ID: <004001c35b6e$62180f60$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Hmm. Be careful on this one. I think dehydrated gypsum (aka Plaster of Paris), while chemically equivalent to anhydrate, has no crystal structure. A mineral name implies a chemical composition and a structure. While there are exceptions to this rule, there has been a movement to "clean up" the literature as to what a mineral is. The old exceptions have been kept, probably for the next generation or so, for historical reasons. Who knows if they'll ever be able to remove mercury from the list of minerals, although it will always be a naturally occurring native element. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > In a message dated 8/4/03 2:33:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu writes: > > > . For example, dehydrate gypsum (monoclinic) and you get anhydrite > > (orthorhombic). Dehydrate epsomite (orthorhombic - MgSO4.7H20) and you get > > hexahydrite (monoclinic - MgSO4.6H2O). > > Wow, I'm glad I don't need to understand all that to pick up agates or opal. > > Grant > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:33:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:33:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <48.207b3888.2c601c43@aol.com> Message-ID: <005201c35b6e$f0702f40$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> As far as I know, most zeolites retain their structure and therefore their hardness with dehydration as the water is loosely rattling around in the zeolite channels. Of course laumontite, as has been mentioned, gets very brittle and perhaps the old term leonhardtite deserves a second look? Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > Let's follow up on that one. What about zeolites, or many other minerals > whose formulae end with +N(H2O)? When those minerals dessicate into their meta- > forms, don't their hardness ratings change? > > Ed > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:47:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:47:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lebanese Pycnodonts References: <013901c35b68$76473390$a5a2dccf@rockman> <000801c35b6b$45e80e10$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <05ec01c35b71$27b08de0$c3cc94d1@remains> Hi I just received a couple of VERY nice Lebanese Cretaceous pycnodonts. Both of these are GREAT fish. If you are interested in seeing photos, please let me know and I will email them off to you. Some discounts may be available for resale customers. thanks Michael ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Pycnodont 03: Paleobalistum sp.? Matrix Size: 18.5cm by 19cm, Fish Size: 16cm A smaller fish than #2, but a lot rarer as well. In both positive and negative aspect, the fish shows great preservation. Wonderful fins and a few teeth. $2400 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Paleobalistum 02: Matrix Size: 27cm by 29cm Fish Size: 24cm This is about as good as it gets for this fish. First off, it's in positive and negative aspect, with no restoration. Second, it is a great size, almost 1 foot long....Thirdly, the preservation is phenomenal- the fins are great, there are lots of teeth......what more could you want? This is the best of this type I have seen. $2300 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 10:53:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jimmy Kuo) Date: Tue Aug 5 09:53:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <013901c35b68$76473390$a5a2dccf@rockman> Message-ID: <3F2FE0C6.5010705@earthlink.net> Isn't this just called a "state change?" Dry ice => CO2 gas. Jimmy John Cornish wrote: >Hi Dr.Bill, > >O.k., I think I'm with ya on all this (thanks to your great explanations!), >but... > >If ice is a mineral which converts to water, a non-mineral, (under the right >conditions) is this change pseudomorphic? >Or is there more appropriate terminology to describe this? > >Are there other examples of non-mineral/mineral changes in this sense of >which your aware? > >I really appreciate your taking the time. Have a great day! > >John > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William S. Cordua" >To: >Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 1:14 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > > > > >>Hi John, >>Hard questions! >> >> >> >>>Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness >>> >>> >scale? > > >>Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or >>scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can >>scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. >>Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is >> >> >scratchable, > > >>with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. >> >> >>>Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? >>> >>> >>Yes. Ice is a perfectly good mineral, and is described in the Encyclopedia >>of Minerals and Dana's. It's hardness is 1.5 on the Mohs' Scale, so you >> >> >can > > >>scratch it with your fingernail (2.5). Brrr. >> >> >>>Does water play a role in effecting the hardness of a mineral? >>> >>> >>The properties of a compound is different from that of its individual >>elements. Take water itself. Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. Combine >>them at room temperature and pressure and you have a liquid different from >>either gas. Plus you can breath oxygen, but you can't breath water, eh? >> >>Now let's consider a mineral like muscovite mica. The "water" is >>well-bonded into the mineral's structure, showing up as (OH) in the >>formula. This isn't the same as little blobs of liquid water in the >>mineral. Muscovite's hardness reflects the structural arrangment and >>properties of all its components. In gypsum, the water is more loosely >>bonded (it comes off easily if you heat the mineral and shows up as a H20 >>in the formula). Still, gypsum's hardness also reflects the structural >>arrangment and properties of all its components. It is true that >>water-bearing minerals are often soft, but some are hard. Topaz has (OH) >> >> >in > > >>it but comes in at 8 on the Mohs' scale. >> >>Water can, and often does, occur as true liquid inclusion in minerals. If >>visible, these are called enhydros. These are impurities, and not a part >> >> >of > > >>the mineral's crystalline structure. They can functionally weaken a >>specimen, causing it to break when one is attempting to polish it, but >> >> >they > > >>don't affect the "scratchability" or Mohs' hardness of the mineral itself. >>Crumbling and cracking are different from scratching. >> >>Well, that was fun. Best wishes - Bill >> >>Dr. William S. Cordua >>Professor of Geology/Mineralogy >>University of Wisconsin - River Falls >>410 South Third Street >>River Falls, WI 54022 >>715-425-3139 >>william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu >>"Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 11:00:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Tue Aug 5 10:00:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <24270C2A-C766-11D7-B96C-000393A96092@mac.com> know where i can see a curve of that graphically? a logarithmic curve i suppose.... KM On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 09:22 AM, Van wrote: > Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While ice may > have a > hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice > dramatically > increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. They may forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel. --- Carl W. Buechner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 11:05:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (relic hunter) Date: Tue Aug 5 10:05:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a tumbler Message-ID: Hello Steve.....Go to my site and ask PD White, he is big on tumbling rocks and I'm sure he could refer you somewhere. Good Luck. Go to the discussion forum. Dirty Rockhounds http://www.Dirtyrockhounds.com Craig >From: "rainyday6" >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: >Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a tumbler >Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:01:38 -0700 > >hi all,im new to this club and i am looking for 1 or 2 used rock tumblers. >as i cant afford any new ones.if any one has some or knows of someone who >does, or rock shows in the nort of seattle area, i would appreciate any >input. thanks >Steve Laycock > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 11:39:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Tue Aug 5 10:39:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: Message-ID: <001101c35b77$6dfc6840$90315841@powertech.net> > Hi John, > Hard questions! > > >Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness scale? > > Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or > scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can > scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. > Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is scratchable, > with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. On the other hand, water does have a "hardness" that is totally unrelated to the Mohs hardness scale. You have probably heard the terms "hard water" and "soft water"?? the hardness of water relates to the dissolved minerals in it (mostly calcium and magnesium). the amount of "hardness" in water is determined by chemical analysis, giving a figurre expressed usually in parts per million (ppm). "Hard" water can leave deposits in your water pipes that can eventually block them. "Soft" water makes it hard to rinse off the soap when you take a shower. The hardness of water is of interest to the photographic processing industry, because if the wash water, for instance (used to wash the chemicals off/out of the film after it has been processed) is too soft, the emulsion (the part of the film that has the image in it, and which is mostly gelatine) can "reticulate" (looks like mud cracks, in miniature), thus ruining the picture.There! More than you ever wanted to know about it, eh?? Margaret > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 11:59:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Tue Aug 5 10:59:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Philippines References: <1d2.ebaf3d2.2c5e86d0@aol.com> <002101c35af3$5bd2cbc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <002e01c35b55$a25da620$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hi Folks, Does anyone here have experience collecting in the Philippines? My brother-inlaw is heading there Thursday and asked for advice (he's not a rockhead). He is going to the island of Panay in the province of Antique in the town of Sibalom. I have read that there are gemstones in the Mao-it River there. Thanks, John Santa, Idaho From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 12:42:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Tue Aug 5 11:42:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? References: <005101c35aca$1c7d4050$b1711e43@s4b5j4> Message-ID: <004301c35b80$4f74c4e0$90315841@powertech.net> We have some of that around here (Silver Reef)-- we call it fossil wood. Most of it has been replaced by malachite., but some wood still can occasionally be found. Margaret > The assumption that wood is petrified when no silica exists may be a > stretch. If it burns its probably not petrified but still just simply wood. > Cheers! > > > > My definition of "fossil" is "any remains or traces of prehistoric life". > > By that definition, both of these are fossils, but I am not. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 12:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Tue Aug 5 11:45:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <001101c35b77$6dfc6840$90315841@powertech.net> References: Message-ID: This is a fun thread about hardness and water. There are several things I want to add. 1) I wasn't aware that ice's hardness changed so radically wih temperature, Van. It reminds me that we are so familiar with this compound under conditions that are so very close to its melting point. Thanks a lot for that info! 2) Margaret's comments point out the importance of defining one's terms: hardness as a physical property related to scratchibility (Mohs') versus hardness as a chemical property (laundary!). 3) To reply to Van's other comments - it is correct that when one refers to dehydrating gypsum to make anhydrite (or the reverse) the process must be done so that the crystalline structure is allowed to form. He is correct some of zeolite's water being able to come and go through the channels in its structure without collapsing the structure. 4) I need to get home to look at some references in order to pitch in on the hanksite question. Haven't ducked that one yet. Best wishes - Bill C. Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 15:10:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Aug 5 14:10:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: Ice has a lot of different phases all the way up to Ice(IX) and maybe higher. Here is a phase diagram: http://skua.gps.caltech.edu/hermann/ice.fig2.html Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Van > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 11:22 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > > > Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While ice > may have a > hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice dramatically > increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. That's why you > can tell the > coldness of a winter's day by the sound of such hard grains crunching > together. Just like walking on quartz sand. > > Van > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > > > > In a message dated 8/4/2003 2:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, j& > > gcornish@tenforward.com writes: > > > > > > > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness > > > scale? > > > > Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. > > > > John Betts > > http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 16:40:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Aug 5 15:40:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... Message-ID: <1cd.ec07841.2c618c00@aol.com> In a message dated 8/5/03 5:16:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jbryankramer@msn.com writes: > > Ice has a lot of different phases all the way up to Ice(IX) and maybe > higher. Ice-nine?!?! I thought that was the room-temperature solid form that brought about the end of the world in Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle. Don't tell me it's for real! Ed --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 19:00:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Aug 5 18:00:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Springfield, MA Show Message-ID: <18e.1e126589.2c61ace2@aol.com> August 8-10, 2003 West Springfield, MA East Coast Gem, Mineral & Fossil Show Friday 10am to 7pm Saturday 10am to 7pm Sunday 10am to 5pm at Better Living Center, Eastern States Exposition, 1305 Memorial Avenue, West Springfield, MA The largest show of its kind in the east. Contact: Martin Zinn Expositions, LLC, P.O. Box 999, Evergreen, CO 80437-0999 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 21:24:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Aug 5 20:24:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... Message-ID: <12e.2f4b8e39.2c61cea4@aol.com> In a message dated 8/5/03 3:46:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, EDewindtro@aol.com writes: > > Ice-nine?!?! I thought that was the room-temperature solid form that > brought > about the end of the world in Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle. Don't tell me it's > for real! > > Ed > It just depends on how you stack the cannon balls. Now to not be off topic, it depends on how you stack the stone spheres. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 5 23:28:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rollins) Date: Tue Aug 5 22:28:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] silver solder Message-ID: <006c01c35bf4$035732e0$cd0211ac@willows> Can anyone tell me where I can get some low melting point silver solder? I would like to try to repair some knicks in a US Silver dollar. I imagine a 90% silver would work if it can be found. Has anyone tried to repair a silver coin before? If so, perhaps you might offer some suggestions? James A. Rollins [mailto:willows@rose.net] From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 09:03:07 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lunarcowgirl) Date: Wed Aug 6 08:03:07 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] silver solder In-Reply-To: <006c01c35bf4$035732e0$cd0211ac@willows> Message-ID: <20030806150028.95228.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> Hi James, Silversmith here. The only issue you will run into with using solder on a coin is that solder doesnt flow perfectly. Yes, its said that solder will only flow where you put flux. This is true, but if you get too much its a huge clump. If you use too little.. you will still have a divit. There are compounds you can put on and around the area you want to solder to prevent the flow but solder for the most part is an uncontrollable aspect I have found. For the percentage of silver you want to solder wtih I dont know of any solder that would fit that need. Hard solder would, but its melting point is way too high for a coin. The coin will distort and perhaps even melt if the heat is uneven etc. Past that I dont know what to tell you. I have used solder to fill in pits in hard solder that I got once in a casting. But then I was able to grind and polish the entire piece. Once I removed the excess solder the piece was too blemished to let it go as is.. if that makes sense. Goodluck Jane --- Rollins wrote: > Can anyone tell me where I can get some low melting > point silver solder? I > would like to try to repair some knicks in a US > Silver dollar. I imagine a > 90% silver would work if it can be found. > Has anyone tried to repair a silver coin before? If > so, perhaps you might > offer some suggestions? > James A. Rollins > [mailto:willows@rose.net] > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds k __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 10:44:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Wed Aug 6 09:44:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: Hi all, Well, it didn't take long for this group to stump the prof. I've done some book work and cannot find any information on the nature of the coatings that form on hanksite. I don't have access to the multi-volume Handbook of Mineralogy, so couldn't check there. It is possible that this has not been studied. The process isn't a dehydration, because there is no water in hanksite's formula. Hanksite is water soluble, so its surfaces are etched in humid air. I'd speculate that evaporation of thin watery condensate on the crystal's surface could result in lose of sulfur or some other component. That could leave a residue of some mixture of hydrated chlorides or carbonates or ? forming the crusts. Cracks and cleavage surfaces would allow water to penetrate into the crystal and hasten its deterioration. Would be an interesting study for someone with the right equipment. best wishes - Bill C. Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 11:08:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Wed Aug 6 10:08:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <003c01c35c3e$00dfcaa0$0100007f@oemcomputer> HBM doesn't discuss it. Curioser and curioser. Tim Jokela Jr, tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The mineralogy of Ontario, Canada: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "William S. Cordua" To: Sent: August 6, 2003 12:43 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > Hi all, > Well, it didn't take long for this group to stump the prof. I've > done some book work and cannot find any information on the nature of the > coatings that form on hanksite. I don't have access to the multi-volume > Handbook of Mineralogy, so couldn't check there. It is possible that this > has not been studied. > The process isn't a dehydration, because there is no water in > hanksite's formula. Hanksite is water soluble, so its surfaces are etched > in humid air. I'd speculate that evaporation of thin watery condensate on > the crystal's surface could result in lose of sulfur or some other > component. That could leave a residue of some mixture of hydrated chlorides > or carbonates or ? forming the crusts. Cracks and cleavage surfaces would > allow water to penetrate into the crystal and hasten its deterioration. > Would be an interesting study for someone with the right equipment. > > best wishes - Bill C. > > > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 14:37:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 6 13:37:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? Message-ID: <32D2DDD5.2AAFAED2.02180873@aol.com> Something can be a fossil and not be petrified. I have lignite logs from the Cretaceous. I would call them fossil wood but not petrified, since they will presumably burn, as will the amber seams in them. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 17:00:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Joe Mulvey) Date: Wed Aug 6 16:00:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH Message-ID: <20030806225946.80393.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Hi List! I found a site somewhere on th e internet describing a quarry in South Lyndeborough, NH where I could find quartz crystals. Living in Nashua, I found the time on Saturday to makew the trip with my 5 year old daughter. We had a fantastic time! Apparently the quarry was used for years to support a local crystal glass industry. Without too much effort, we found boulders with large vugs filled with 1/16" - 1/2" quartz crystals. These were very abundant and easy broken out into hand sized pieces that look great under a magnifiying glass. Much less abundant was a very dark quartz - simialr crystals in brown and black. So far I've only washed with water. Would like to hear recommnedations on what I should use to try to further clean up these specimens. Finally, I did find some crystals in the base of the quarry walls that were definitely a bright red colour. I only found two or three of these, and there were in a precarious place that seemed pretty dangerous for collecting. I was afraid that using the force required to free up the are could easily dislodge a large outcropping above me. Especially with my daughter there, I was over cautious and chose to let it go for now. A 5 minute rain storm really cooled us off! The horse flies were a bit obnoxious but we dealt with them alright. The ledges at the top of the quarry should be off limits - much of the rock is crumpling. Happily, this makes getting specimens out of the rock much easier than I expected! Am I going back? You bet I am! The directions I found on the Internet were from 1997 by Jon Ciemiewicz. I've updated them a bit. >From the intersection of rts 101 and 31 in Wilton, NH, take 31 North to South Lyndeborough. Turn sharp right onto School Street about 1/2 mile after passing the Post Office on the right. Follow up the hill. At the fork in the road bear left - you are now on Putnam Hill Rd. Approaching the top of the hill you will see a sign on the left for the Town Public Works sand lot. Take this left - Locust Lane. Follow down the street 2/10 of a mile. You'll pass the sand lot. The very next house is owned by Zyggy & Jeanette Bankowski. You drive up their driveway and into tne 4 wheel drive path through the woods. Go as far as you dare and then it's a short walk to the quarry. Along the way you'll pass piles of cracked rock where you will be able to find some crystals. The real fun there is for the kids to play in them. We were the only ones there that day and we really enjoyed having the run of the place. Next time, we'll bring a picnic lunch, some chairs and maybe an umbrella. We'll also get there a lot earlier! Definitely bring hammer, goggles and gloves. It was pretty sunny and hot - I swapped sunglasses for the saftey goggles and have a pair of cracked sunglasses and a little cut on my lip from cracking rocks. Still worth it!!! I spoke with Mr. Bankowski for a bit. He was not immediately forthcoming with information. I stopped to ask him if he knew of the quarry I was looking for. After a few minutes I finally asked him to tell we whether I was at the right place or not. Maybe he was just practicing that Maine thing - "You can't get theyah from heah". He also wanted a few dollars for our collecting. I guess I took about 50 lbs of rock which works out to about (20) 1" square specimens of quartz. He asked for a donation of $20. I gladly gave it to him because he could easily just close the place to people like you and me, we did have several hours of great fun, and we did walk away with some mineral specimens that we collected ourselves! Anyway, it was a heckuva lot cheaper than our trip to Ruggle's Mine a few weeks back! Access to this quarry is Friday, Sat. & Sunday only. Rock on! Joe ===== Joe Mulvey Nashua, NH -- USA http://home.attbi.com/~mgag1 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 19:08:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Aug 6 18:08:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid...? In-Reply-To: <002d01c359d2$317289a0$b8305841@powertech.net> References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030802162208.009f8270@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030806152222.023a4900@mail.aloha.net> Hi Margaret, Terrie, Aaron & List, I just now got John Siebel's original "New Kid" message, as well as several other ones that were delayed several days. Don't know what the cause is, but we seem to be caught up now. Thanks. Kitty At 05:16 AM 8/3/2003, you wrote: > > Hi list and Aaron, > > > > We've gotten three messages responding to "New Kid," apparently John > > Siebel, but never received the original. Did anyone else have this > > problem, or is it only our system? > > > > Aloha, Kitty > >Probably your system; I got the original OK. >Margaret > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/mixed > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 19:16:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 6 18:16:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH Message-ID: <187.1d9d8c5b.2c630217@aol.com> In a message dated 8/6/03 4:00:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com writes: > . So far I've only washed with water. Would like to hear recommnedations on > what I should use to try to further clean up these specimens. Try soaking a piece in vinegar. Vinegar is a mild acid. Also, oxalic acid (wood bleach) from a paint store works well with quartz. I don't know what kind of matrix your quartz is on so use a small specimen first. Oxalic can burn skin but it is not as dangerous to skin or lungs as some other acids. I would rather get oxalyc on my skin and clothes than get battery acid from the family car. Keep it away from kids and pets -- and when you are done neutralize it with baking soda or chips of limestone. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 20:02:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Nance) Date: Wed Aug 6 19:02:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH References: <20030806225946.80393.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c35c87$d5c36a80$4768ae18@houston.rr.com> Hi Joe, I enjoyed reading your trip report. I will be visiting NH and Maine next month. We are planning to hunt minerals at Poland Mining Camp. Have you ever hunted at any of their mines? We will be flying into Manchester NH, do you know of any good collecting sites in that area? Thanks, Jim Nance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Mulvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 5:59 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH > Hi List! > I found a site somewhere on th e internet describing a quarry in > South Lyndeborough, NH where I could find quartz crystals. > Living in Nashua, I found the time on Saturday to makew the trip > with my 5 year old daughter. > > We had a fantastic time! > > Apparently the quarry was used for years to support a local > crystal glass industry. > > Without too much effort, we found boulders with large vugs > filled with 1/16" - 1/2" quartz crystals. These were very > abundant and easy broken out into hand sized pieces that look > great under a magnifiying glass. > > Much less abundant was a very dark quartz - simialr crystals in > brown and black. So far I've only washed with water. Would like > to hear recommnedations on what I should use to try to further > clean up these specimens. > > Finally, I did find some crystals in the base of the quarry > walls that were definitely a bright red colour. I only found two > or three of these, and there were in a precarious place that > seemed pretty dangerous for collecting. I was afraid that using > the force required to free up the are could easily dislodge a > large outcropping above me. Especially with my daughter there, I > was over cautious and chose to let it go for now. > > A 5 minute rain storm really cooled us off! The horse flies were > a bit obnoxious but we dealt with them alright. The ledges at > the top of the quarry should be off limits - much of the rock is > crumpling. Happily, this makes getting specimens out of the rock > much easier than I expected! > > Am I going back? You bet I am! > > The directions I found on the Internet were from 1997 by Jon > Ciemiewicz. I've updated them a bit. > > From the intersection of rts 101 and 31 in Wilton, NH, take 31 > North to South Lyndeborough. > > Turn sharp right onto School Street about 1/2 mile after passing > the Post Office on the right. > > Follow up the hill. At the fork in the road bear left - you are > now on Putnam Hill Rd. > > Approaching the top of the hill you will see a sign on the left > for the Town Public Works sand lot. Take this left - Locust > Lane. > > Follow down the street 2/10 of a mile. You'll pass the sand lot. > The very next house is owned by Zyggy & Jeanette Bankowski. You > drive up their driveway and into tne 4 wheel drive path through > the woods. Go as far as you dare and then it's a short walk to > the quarry. > > Along the way you'll pass piles of cracked rock where you will > be able to find some crystals. The real fun there is for the > kids to play in them. > > We were the only ones there that day and we really enjoyed > having the run of the place. Next time, we'll bring a picnic > lunch, some chairs and maybe an umbrella. We'll also get there a > lot earlier! > > Definitely bring hammer, goggles and gloves. It was pretty sunny > and hot - I swapped sunglasses for the saftey goggles and have a > pair of cracked sunglasses and a little cut on my lip from > cracking rocks. Still worth it!!! > > I spoke with Mr. Bankowski for a bit. He was not immediately > forthcoming with information. I stopped to ask him if he knew of > the quarry I was looking for. After a few minutes I finally > asked him to tell we whether I was at the right place or not. > Maybe he was just practicing that Maine thing - "You can't get > theyah from heah". > > He also wanted a few dollars for our collecting. > > I guess I took about 50 lbs of rock which works out to about > (20) 1" square specimens of quartz. He asked for a donation of > $20. I gladly gave it to him because he could easily just close > the place to people like you and me, we did have several hours > of great fun, and we did walk away with some mineral specimens > that we collected ourselves! Anyway, it was a heckuva lot > cheaper than our trip to Ruggle's Mine a few weeks back! > > Access to this quarry is Friday, Sat. & Sunday only. > > Rock on! > Joe > > > ===== > Joe Mulvey > Nashua, NH -- USA > http://home.attbi.com/~mgag1 > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 20:06:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Aug 6 19:06:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH In-Reply-To: <187.1d9d8c5b.2c630217@aol.com> Message-ID: Oxalic acid, while it isn't particularly strong is very toxic. It is not innocuous. It can form Calcium Oxalate internally and lead to gangarene in extremities and even death: From one of the MSDS "Safety profile: . Poison by subcutaneous route. Moderately toxic by ingestion and subcutaneous routes. A skin and severe eye irritant. Acute oxalic poisoning results from ingestion of a solution of the acid. There is marked corrosion of the mouth, oesophagus, and stomach, with symptoms of vomiting, burning and abdominal pain, collapse, and sometimes convulsions. Death may follow quickly. The systemic effects are attributed to the removal by the oxalic acid of the calcium in the blood. The renal tubules become obstructed by the insoluble calcium oxalate, and there is profound kidney disturbance. The chief effects of inhalation of the dusts or vapour are severe irritation of the eyes and upper respiratory tract, gastrointestinal disturbances, albuminuria, gradual loss of weight, increasing weakness and nervous system complaints, ulceration of the mucous membranes of the nose and throat, epistaxis, headache, irritation, and nervousness. Oxalic acid has a caustic action on the skin and may cause dermatitis; a case of early gangrene of the fingers resembling that caused by phenol has been described. More severe cases may show albuminuria, chronic cough, vomiting, pain in the back, and gradual emaciation and weakness. The skin lesions are characterized by cracking and fissuring of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers. The skin may be bluish in colour, and the nails brittle and yellow. Violent reaction with furfuryl alcohol, Ag, NaClO3, NaOCl." So this not something to be careless with. Please don't make recomendations on how safe some material is unless you have the background to do so. I used it for years and haven't died yet isn't a good basis for advice. Bryan > Try soaking a piece in vinegar. Vinegar is a mild acid. Also, > oxalic acid > (wood bleach) from a paint store works well with quartz. I don't > know what kind > of matrix your quartz is on so use a small specimen first. Oxalic > can burn > skin but it is not as dangerous to skin or lungs as some other > acids. I would > rather get oxalyc on my skin and clothes than get battery acid > from the family > car. > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 6 22:02:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Wed Aug 6 21:02:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Kid...? References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030802162208.009f8270@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030806152222.023a4900@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3F31CF5D.80204@cox.net> Kitty 20 Mule Team?? here is one for you. Terrie CREATIVE THINKING After 17 years of marriage, a man dumped his wife for a younger woman. The downtown luxury apartment was in his name and he wanted to remain there with his new love so he asked the wife to move out and then he would buy her another place. The wife agreed to this, but asked that she be given 3 days on her own there, to pack up her things. While he was gone, the first day she lovingly put her personal belongings into boxes and crates and suitcases. On the second day, she had the movers come and collect her things. On the third day, she sat down for the last time at their candlelit dining table, soft music playing in the background, and feasted on a pound of shrimp and a bottle of Chardonnay. When she had finished, she went into each room and deposited a few of the resulting shrimp shells into the hollow of the curtain rods. She then cleaned up the kitchen and left. The husband came back, with his new girl, and all was bliss for the first few days. Then it started; slowly but surely. Clueless, the man could not explain why the place smelled so bad. They tried everything; cleaned & mopped and aired the place out. Vents were checked for dead rodents, carpets were steam cleaned, Air fresheners were hung everywhere. Exterminators were brought in; the carpets were replaced and on it went. Finally, they could take it no more and decided to move. The moving company arrived and did a very professional packing job taking everything to their new home; including the curtain rods. The most wasted day of all is the day in which we have not laughed. ================ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 01:23:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John@mlce.net) Date: Thu Aug 7 00:23:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] silver solder In-Reply-To: <20030806150028.95228.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030806150028.95228.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > >--- Rollins wrote: >> Can anyone tell me where I can get some low melting >> point silver solder? I >> would like to try to repair some knicks in a US >> Silver dollar. I imagine a >> 90% silver would work if it can be found. >> Has anyone tried to repair a silver coin before? If >> so, perhaps you might >> offer some suggestions? >> James A. Rollins > > [mailto:willows@rose.net] >> You might go to http://www.artmetal.com and post this on the Tech Talk section and see what comes back. Jeffrey Herman is a silversmith and might be able to help you. He is sometimes on the above site but is rather present on the Orchid List: T h e O r c h i d L i s t Open Electronic Forum for Jewelry Manufacturing Methods and Procedures ____________________________________________________________________ Orchid FAQ: ~ http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/faq.htm Make a Donation to Orchid: ~ http://www.ganoksin.com/donate ____________________________________________________________________ List Archives: ~ http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive List Galleries: ~ http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/gallery.htm Tips From The Jeweler's Bench - Article Search ~ http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/tip_sear.htm ____________________________________________________________________ -Unsubscribe: -Email: orchid-request@ganoksin.com Body=unsubscribe subject=blank ____________________________________________________________________ To subscribe, just email as above (last item) but put in subscribe rather than unsubscribe. Bet you get a lot of feedback from here. Hope this helps. By the eay, both lists are terrific foe anyone working in metal. John Dach --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 01:52:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Aug 7 00:52:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] creative thinking In-Reply-To: <3F31CF5D.80204@cox.net> References: <002401c35927$9cbf86a0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F2C295E.1000003@cox.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030802162208.009f8270@mail.aloha.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030806152222.023a4900@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030806190056.023542e0@mail.aloha.net> Oh, Terrie, that is so great! It actually sounds like a true story. Bill and I collected shells on a beach recently in New Zealand (report going to the rock list soon) and we washed each shell carefully and checked to be sure there were no occupants---either snail or hermit crab---then put them in plastic bags in the trunk of the car. Two days later the car began to smell bad, we removed the bags to the motel, and found a sack that had two shells with the remains of some occupant that we had missed before. If it had gone on for another day the whole car would have been impossible! Aloha, K. At 06:02 PM 8/6/2003, you wrote: >Kitty >20 Mule Team?? > >here is one for you. >Terrie > >CREATIVE THINKING > >After 17 years of marriage, a man dumped his wife for a younger woman. >The downtown luxury apartment was in his name and he wanted to remain >there with his new love so he asked the wife to move out and then he would >buy her another place. > >The wife agreed to this, but asked that she be given 3 days on her own >there, to pack up her things. While he was gone, the first day she lovingly >put her personal belongings into boxes and crates and suitcases. On the >second day, she had the movers come and collect her things. On the third >day, she sat down for the last time at their candlelit dining table, >soft music playing in the background, and feasted on a pound of shrimp >and a bottle of Chardonnay. When she had finished, she went into each room >and deposited a few of the resulting shrimp shells into the hollow of the >curtain rods. She then cleaned up the kitchen and left. > >The husband came back, with his new girl, and all was bliss for the >first few days. Then it started; slowly but surely. Clueless, the man >could not explain why the place smelled so bad. They tried everything; >cleaned & mopped and aired the place out. Vents were checked for dead >rodents, carpets were steam cleaned, Air fresheners were hung everywhere. >Exterminators were brought in; the carpets were replaced and on it went. > >Finally, they could take it no more and decided to move. > >The moving company arrived and did a very professional packing job >taking everything to their new home; including the curtain rods. > >The most wasted day of all is the day in which we have not laughed. > > >================ > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 08:04:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood) Date: Thu Aug 7 07:04:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030806190056.023542e0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic characteristics of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited specimens of fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, many years ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin section for petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are shark, ray and crocodile teeth from the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and species (and hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, etc. from the Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to compare fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I emphasize that I intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do not want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or scientific value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount to zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. Henry Barwood Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science MSCX 312G Department of Math and Physics Troy State University Troy, Alabama 36082 hbarwood@troyst.edu From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 08:16:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave West) Date: Thu Aug 7 07:16:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH References: <20030806225946.80393.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <018c01c35cee$4db84680$6400a8c0@West> Joe, I tend to use Muriatic Acid as my first "heavy hitter" because we have a swimming pool and I buy a lot of it anyway. I get the non fuming type from the pool place, so I don't accidentally snort the fumes. It is tough stuff. I once set a container of the fuming variety in a storage room to soak some agate for a few days. Everything metal was covered with a fine coat of rust. If you are fighting clay deposits, add ammonia to your soaking water. It seems to help. I am curious about the red crystals. I have found wine colored quartz that looks for the world like a dogtooth calcite. How "red" is the "red" you found? DaveW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Mulvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH > Hi List! > I found a site somewhere on th e internet describing a quarry in > South Lyndeborough, NH where I could find quartz crystals. > Living in Nashua, I found the time on Saturday to makew the trip > with my 5 year old daughter. > > We had a fantastic time! > > Apparently the quarry was used for years to support a local > crystal glass industry. > > Without too much effort, we found boulders with large vugs > filled with 1/16" - 1/2" quartz crystals. These were very > abundant and easy broken out into hand sized pieces that look > great under a magnifiying glass. > > Much less abundant was a very dark quartz - simialr crystals in > brown and black. So far I've only washed with water. Would like > to hear recommnedations on what I should use to try to further > clean up these specimens. > > Finally, I did find some crystals in the base of the quarry > walls that were definitely a bright red colour. I only found two > or three of these, and there were in a precarious place that > seemed pretty dangerous for collecting. I was afraid that using > the force required to free up the are could easily dislodge a > large outcropping above me. Especially with my daughter there, I > was over cautious and chose to let it go for now. > > A 5 minute rain storm really cooled us off! The horse flies were > a bit obnoxious but we dealt with them alright. The ledges at > the top of the quarry should be off limits - much of the rock is > crumpling. Happily, this makes getting specimens out of the rock > much easier than I expected! > > Am I going back? You bet I am! > > The directions I found on the Internet were from 1997 by Jon > Ciemiewicz. I've updated them a bit. > > From the intersection of rts 101 and 31 in Wilton, NH, take 31 > North to South Lyndeborough. > > Turn sharp right onto School Street about 1/2 mile after passing > the Post Office on the right. > > Follow up the hill. At the fork in the road bear left - you are > now on Putnam Hill Rd. > > Approaching the top of the hill you will see a sign on the left > for the Town Public Works sand lot. Take this left - Locust > Lane. > > Follow down the street 2/10 of a mile. You'll pass the sand lot. > The very next house is owned by Zyggy & Jeanette Bankowski. You > drive up their driveway and into tne 4 wheel drive path through > the woods. Go as far as you dare and then it's a short walk to > the quarry. > > Along the way you'll pass piles of cracked rock where you will > be able to find some crystals. The real fun there is for the > kids to play in them. > > We were the only ones there that day and we really enjoyed > having the run of the place. Next time, we'll bring a picnic > lunch, some chairs and maybe an umbrella. We'll also get there a > lot earlier! > > Definitely bring hammer, goggles and gloves. It was pretty sunny > and hot - I swapped sunglasses for the saftey goggles and have a > pair of cracked sunglasses and a little cut on my lip from > cracking rocks. Still worth it!!! > > I spoke with Mr. Bankowski for a bit. He was not immediately > forthcoming with information. I stopped to ask him if he knew of > the quarry I was looking for. After a few minutes I finally > asked him to tell we whether I was at the right place or not. > Maybe he was just practicing that Maine thing - "You can't get > theyah from heah". > > He also wanted a few dollars for our collecting. > > I guess I took about 50 lbs of rock which works out to about > (20) 1" square specimens of quartz. He asked for a donation of > $20. I gladly gave it to him because he could easily just close > the place to people like you and me, we did have several hours > of great fun, and we did walk away with some mineral specimens > that we collected ourselves! Anyway, it was a heckuva lot > cheaper than our trip to Ruggle's Mine a few weeks back! > > Access to this quarry is Friday, Sat. & Sunday only. > > Rock on! > Joe > > > ===== > Joe Mulvey > Nashua, NH -- USA > http://home.attbi.com/~mgag1 > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 08:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave West) Date: Thu Aug 7 07:45:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? References: <32D2DDD5.2AAFAED2.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: <01af01c35cf2$7515a660$6400a8c0@West> I just bumped into this full blown answer to the fossil question at this link http://www.weinmanmuseum.org/whatsafossil.html rather detailed, but does seem to answer the question....or raise more. DaveW ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] When is a fossil not a fossil? > Something can be a fossil and not be petrified. I have lignite logs from the Cretaceous. I would call them fossil wood but not petrified, since they will presumably burn, as will the amber seams in them. > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 08:53:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 7 07:53:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help Message-ID: <5DFABB15.62F9EFDB.02180873@aol.com> Henry: How big do they have to be for you to cut and study? Gene Hartstein Newark, DE From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 09:04:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood) Date: Thu Aug 7 08:04:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help In-Reply-To: <5DFABB15.62F9EFDB.02180873@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Gene, Anything over 1/4 inch in size would be fine. I can handle smaller, but they require embedding to process. Ideally something between 1/4 and 1 inch in size would be great. Thanks. Henry -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of FOSSILNUT@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 9:53 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help Henry: How big do they have to be for you to cut and study? Gene Hartstein Newark, DE _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 09:35:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Thu Aug 7 08:35:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <3F3270A8.77E1BA84@gmx.de> Hello, may I help out? The handbook does not mention this question, so you have to look elsewhere. In the Mineralogical Record, 1975, Vol. 06, No. 2, page 074-083, there is a paper titled The Crystal Habits and Forms of the Minerals of Searles Lake, San Bernardino County, California. It may be useful but I did not look it up. Regards, J. Wachsmuth Ulm - Germany William S. Cordua schrieb: > Hi all, > Well, it didn't take long for this group to stump the prof. I've > done some book work and cannot find any information on the nature of the > coatings that form on hanksite. I don't have access to the multi-volume > Handbook of Mineralogy, so couldn't check there. It is possible that this > has not been studied. > The process isn't a dehydration, because there is no water in > hanksite's formula. Hanksite is water soluble, so its surfaces are etched > in humid air. I'd speculate that evaporation of thin watery condensate on > the crystal's surface could result in lose of sulfur or some other > component. That could leave a residue of some mixture of hydrated chlorides > or carbonates or ? forming the crusts. Cracks and cleavage surfaces would > allow water to penetrate into the crystal and hasten its deterioration. > Would be an interesting study for someone with the right equipment. > > best wishes - Bill C. > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 13:06:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 7 12:06:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH Message-ID: <1cf.ef820e3.2c63fcba@aol.com> In a message dated 8/6/03 7:09:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jbryankramer@msn.com writes: > with. Please don't make recomendations on how safe some material is unless > you have the background to do so. I used it for years and haven't died yet > isn't a good basis for advice. > Bryan, Since Joe made several comments about the safety of the quarry walls in his well-written report, I naively assumed he was intelligent enough to read the precautions on the back of the container of wood bleach. I forgot I was responding to a rockhound, a subspecies of homo-sap with an IQ slightly above a bacteria. How would you answer his question? He has already tried water. I recommended vinegar and oxalic and another person recommended muriatic acid from the pool supply section. What is your answer? Do you answer the questions people ask or just sit around reading answer until you find one you can attack? Here is a USDA report about oxalic acid in vegetables. I suggest you read it then come back here with a health warning about food. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 13:06:21 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Aug 7 12:06:21 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030803145400.009fa060@mail.aloha.net> Bill had an astronomy conference in Christchurch, NZ, and we left our home in Hilo at 6pm on July 4. Including airport security and stops in Honolulu, Auckland and Wellington, we arrived in Christchurchs 23 hours later. (Can anyone sleep in airplane seats nowadays? We sure can't!) We were surprised to look down from the plane and see snow almost totally covering both the North and South Islands. It turns out an unusually large storm had brought cold and snow over almost the whole country. Snow in the mountains is common there in winter, but there was snow on the ground in Auckland and Christchurch---and on the roses and pansies! (I was surprised there would be roses and pansies blooming in the equivalent of January!) The conference lasted a week, and we got around by bus, not wanting the hassle of a car. We knew we wouldn't have the time or equipment for rock hunting in the field, but we did plan on hitting rock shops. There had been one in Christchurch called "Hettie's Rock Shop" when we were there six years ago, and we talked with Hettie herself, a neat elderly lady who had great stories to tell about her husband's mining, and their collecting together. Sadly, she died a while ago. The good news is that the shop is still there, and has expanded, and there's a new branch downtown. The bad news is that the new owners are claiming "metaphysical powers" for all their materials. The downtown shop had incense burning that we could smell a block away and was of nearly choking intensity when we entered. Scattered among the rocks and crystals were figurines of dragons and wizards, and various herbal teas and scented powders and candles. We found that merely annoying, but what really disappointed us was that with each rock or crystal there was a card "explaining" the "properties" of the specimen. A card from Hettie six years ago would read: "Dumortierite - Rt 60 roadcut, La Paz County, Arizona. Aluminum Boro-silicate Hydroxide. Hardness: Moh's 7. Is often carved into jewelry." We would have been happy with just the name and location, but the other information is great. Now the current card reads: "Dumortierite: Can be used to reduce excitability and to eliminate stubbornness and can assist in providing stamina when one is subjected to harsh environments. Can be used to diminish wasting disorders such as anemia and depression." Other cards claim to cure cancer, protect against lightning strikes, ensure loving relationships, and increase wealth. There were also several specimens that did not even have the real name of the mineral, but were called "Memory Stone," or "Dream Crystal." If they put this stuff on the back of the card with some kind of disclaimer, or at least wrote: "Some people believe that.." and then put all the REAL facts on the front, I think that would be OK. We had a discussion on this list a while ago on What People Believe About Rocks, and I definitely think that if a beautiful crystal makes you smile and inspires wonder, that is a positive and perhaps even healing thing. But I get angry that some people will be duped into using a crystal to treat their problems instead of going to a doctor or counselor or psychiatrist and may suffer or even die. And I'm also frustrated when the card or label doesn't give proper identification or a location of origin. We did buy some nice pieces after we were able to get location information from the new owners. Even then they often would say simply " USA," or "I think Brazil...or maybe it was Bolivia." After the conference we took the train up the east coast of the South Island, with beautiful views of snow-covered mountains to the left, and waves breaking on rocks and beaches to the right. We took the ferry from Picton to Wellington, arriving at sunset, picked up our reserved rental car and drove (in the dark) to the town of Waikanae where we had lived for a year back in 1996-97. Our motel was right on Kapiti Beach, and in the morning we walked out at sunrise, collecting shells and small pieces of driftwood. We stayed 2 nights, and visited old friends, walked through the Waikanae Domain and Nature Reserve, seeing lots of birds. We drove further up the west coast with a stop at Keretehere Beach where there are patches of black sand that contains iron and is magnetic, and chunks of sandstone with fossils. Then we went on to Wanganui to see a fellow I'd contacted via email who sells rocks and minerals on the Internet [ http://www.roughcountryminerals.com/ ]and had agreed to let us see his stuff. Dave Blakemore and his wife gave us a warm welcome and served us tea. They are originally from Cornwall, England. Dave took us to his storage shed where there were drawers, boxes and flats of a huge variety of minerals. We ended up buying some beautiful pieces, at reasonable prices in NZ dollars, and the exchange rate made the prices even more attractive. The next day we drove to Lake Taupo and Rotorua---lots of geysers, plopping mud pools and sulphur vents---where our motel room had a spa tub with natural hot mineral water from underground geothermal sources. The next day was Turanga where again there was a natural hot pool in each motel unit. Here they simply piped the water out of the ground so it flowed continuously in one side of the tub and out the other; the temperature was perfect without having to add any cold water, and there was no unpleasant sulphur or chemical smell. We did some more beach-combing and then headed for Auckland the next day, stropping at a rock shop we had been to 6 years ago in the town of Ngatea. Wilderness Gems is a huge warehouse full of a wide variety of specimens, including many from New Zealand, and a nice display of fluorescent pieces. (They have a website, but don't sell over the Internet.) Fortunately they have made only the slightest gesture to the craze for "metaphysical" rocks, by having one small shelf of decorative boxes with a stone or crystal inside and a label on the bottom saying things like "Agate for strength," or "Ruby for love." I don't mind that. It reminds me of the "language of flowers" that was popular in the 19th Century, and is harmless. Here's an observation about being "down under," that I failed to mention last year after being in Australia: Many things are the opposite of what we're used to. Of course the seasons are backward, and it's warm in the north and cold in the south. (Water does NOT go down the drain in the opposite direction from the northern hemisphere, by the way.) But also they drive on the left side of the road, and the wands for turn signals and windshield wipers are reversed. This is true in several other countries, and I don't mean to say that the American way is better; it just means that we did a lot of windshield wiping in dry weather when we intended to turn. Light switches in buildings go down for on and up for off, and in many houses the hot water faucet is on the right and the cold on the left. This one takes the cake, however: in one motel that advertised "central heating," the room was cold and there were no vents, no baseboard heaters, no sign of where heat could come from. We checked for radiant heat, but the floor was cold. So we called the desk and they told us there were heating pipes in the ceiling! Sure enough, when we streached our arms straight up we could feel warm air above our heads! By waving newspapers and magazines in the air periodically we could fan the heat down to make the room reasonably comfortable! Everywhere we went the people were friendly and helpful, and New Zealand has to be just about the most beautiful and diverse country on earth. All the great scenery in the "Lord of the Rings" movies was filmed in NZ. Fjords like in Norway, mountains like the Cascades, beaches and jungles like Hawaii, geysers like Yellowstone, caves like Carlsbad, island groups like the San Juans; huge sand dunes, active volcanoes, beautiful rivers, lakes, waterfalls, forests, gorgeous flowers and trees, exotic birds and penguins, quaint villages, clean cities, and en extensive system of busses, trains & ferries that run on time. Finally, there is Hot Sand Beach where geothermal water seeps up through the sand and people scoop out lounging pools, then when they get too warm they run into the ocean to cool off! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 13:22:59 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 7 12:22:59 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report Message-ID: In a message dated 8/7/03 12:07:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kahako@aloha.net writes: > . So we called the desk and they told us there > were heating pipes in the ceiling! Sure enough, when we streached our arms > straight up we could feel warm air above our heads! By waving newspapers > and magazines in the air periodically we could fan the heat down to make > the room reasonably comfortable! > Since so many other things are reversed, maybe the architect believe cold air would rise and warm air would fall? Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 14:06:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Aug 7 13:06:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a partial alligator/croc tooth from the Peace River and some small shark teeth from the same location. I don't know what the geological age of specimins from that river are tho. It might take some searching to find them too. Have you contacted any of the phosphate mines in the 'bone valley' area of Florida (near Bartow). They reportedly have hundreds of pounds of these teeth that they grind up daily. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Henry Barwood > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 09:06 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > > > I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic > characteristics > of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited > specimens of > fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, many years > ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or > otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin section for > petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are > shark, ray > and crocodile teeth from > the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and species (and > hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, etc. from the > Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to compare > fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I emphasize that I > intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do not > want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or scientific > value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount to > zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. > > Henry Barwood > Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science > MSCX 312G > Department of Math and Physics > Troy State University > Troy, Alabama 36082 > hbarwood@troyst.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 14:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Thu Aug 7 13:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help References: Message-ID: <007101c35d20$4d28c500$d3cd94d1@remains> are you talking about the Peace River area of Alberta or B.C.??? if you are, the majority of the material from that area is cretaceous..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 2:05 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > I have a partial alligator/croc tooth from the Peace River and some small > shark teeth from the same location. I don't know what the geological age of > specimins from that river are tho. It might take some searching to find them > too. > > Have you contacted any of the phosphate mines in the 'bone valley' area of > Florida (near Bartow). They reportedly have hundreds of pounds of these > teeth that they grind up daily. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Henry Barwood > > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 09:06 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > > > > > > I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic > > characteristics > > of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited > > specimens of > > fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, many years > > ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or > > otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin section for > > petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are > > shark, ray > > and crocodile teeth from > > the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and species (and > > hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, etc. from the > > Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to compare > > fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I emphasize that I > > intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do not > > want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or scientific > > value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount to > > zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. > > > > Henry Barwood > > Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science > > MSCX 312G > > Department of Math and Physics > > Troy State University > > Troy, Alabama 36082 > > hbarwood@troyst.edu > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 14:32:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Thu Aug 7 13:32:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030803145400.009fa060@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <000401c35d22$b8cdc470$25c4c950@maxdata> Dear Kitty and Bill (et al.), Sorry that I react for one time on a detail that is off-topic, but I just wanted to eliminate some misunderstandings about the New-Zealanders... ******************************** This one takes the cake, however: in one motel that advertised "central heating," the room was cold and there were no vents, no baseboard *heaters, no sign of where heat could come from. We checked for radiant heat, but the floor was cold. So we called the desk and they *told us there were heating pipes in the ceiling! Sure enough, when we streached our arms straight up we could feel warm air above our heads! By waving newspapers and magazines in the air periodically we could fan the heat down to make the room reasonably comfortable! ******************************** As a matter of fact we have also ceiling heating in our living room : it's a moderate temperature heating carbon resistance foil placed between the wood of the ceiling and an isolation layer that shields from the floor above. You should not wave newspapers to get comfortable (at least in our case) : the wooden ceiling becomes just a source of infrared heat waves, that are spread through the room by reflection and absorption phenomena. I can assure you that it is VERY comfortable. And you have absolutely no dirty heaters, convectors or other stuff in the room ! In our living room also the floor is heated moderately. The complete system is really a super enjoyable heating... Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 15:15:08 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Aug 7 14:15:08 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help In-Reply-To: <007101c35d20$4d28c500$d3cd94d1@remains> Message-ID: Nope The Peace River of SW Florida, which is a well known fossil local. The area is probably Miocene or Eocene Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Michael Schmidt > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 15:13 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > > > are you talking about the Peace River area of Alberta or B.C.??? > > if you are, the majority of the material from that area is cretaceous..... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 2:05 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > > > > I have a partial alligator/croc tooth from the Peace River and > some small > > shark teeth from the same location. I don't know what the geological age > of > > specimins from that river are tho. It might take some searching to find > them > > too. > > > > Have you contacted any of the phosphate mines in the 'bone > valley' area of > > Florida (near Bartow). They reportedly have hundreds of pounds of these > > teeth that they grind up daily. > > > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Henry Barwood > > > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 09:06 > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > > > > > > > > > I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic > > > characteristics > > > of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited > > > specimens of > > > fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, > many years > > > ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or > > > otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin > section for > > > petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are > > > shark, ray > > > and crocodile teeth from > > > the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and > species (and > > > hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, > etc. from the > > > Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to > compare > > > fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I > emphasize that I > > > intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do > not > > > want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or > scientific > > > value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount > to > > > zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. > > > > > > Henry Barwood > > > Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science > > > MSCX 312G > > > Department of Math and Physics > > > Troy State University > > > Troy, Alabama 36082 > > > hbarwood@troyst.edu > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 15:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Aug 7 14:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report In-Reply-To: <000401c35d22$b8cdc470$25c4c950@maxdata> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030803145400.009fa060@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030807114702.0209a080@mail.aloha.net> >As a matter of fact we have also ceiling heating in our living room : it's >a moderate temperature heating carbon resistance foil >placed between the wood of the ceiling and an isolation layer that shields >from the floor above. You should not wave newspapers to >get comfortable (at least in our case) : the wooden ceiling becomes just a >source of infrared heat waves, that are spread through >the room by reflection and absorption phenomena. I can assure you that it >is VERY comfortable. And you have absolutely no dirty >heaters, convectors or other stuff in the room ! In our living room also >the floor is heated moderately. The complete system is >really a super enjoyable heating... > >Greetings, > >Rik DILLEN Glad it works for you. Perhaps the heated floor in your house makes the difference. The ceiling heat sure didn't work in the New Zealand motel! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 20:01:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Thu Aug 7 19:01:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Poland Mining Camp Message-ID: <20030808020032.42168.qmail@web41003.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Jim Nance: I saw your note on the rockhound list, and thought I'd let you know about our experience at Poland Mining Camp. We had a ball! Dudy and Mary are characters out of a rural picture, but with rocks everywhere. The other guests at the Camp were great, showed us greenhorns from WV all about pegmatites, and how to screen and wash dirt to find little shards of tourmaline...back home we mostly find sedimentary things, don't ya know... We flew into Manchester too, it was a lot cheaper that way. We drove up through the White Mountains, saw a moose, I ate New Eng. Fried Clam dinner. Amusingly enough, I got a bad clam, just before we got to Poland I got the empty outs (!#$%#$%) bad, and skipped dinner, thanks. I did pink medicine that Mary dug up, amd got to sleep around 10. When I woke up, it was light out, and I was still really tired, gave up on the day before I even woke up, really, but then I saw a clock. It was only 4:30 am! I got 3 more hours of sleep! Ate breakfast, and visited an abandoned quarry! We broke big rocks to find little vugs, garnet was so common we brought back yard rocks covered with it. Schorl was common too, and smoky Qz, and ...well, we had a ball. I've wanted to go back for Pegmatite camp, but haven't made it yet. After almost a week at Poland Mioning Camp, we toured Maine a little, Acadia Nat Park, drove to Campobello ( in Canada a little), and then we went back to Oxford County, and visited other public quarries (the Harvard mostly) and found other great specimens. It's a great opportunity, and you will always be gald you went, that's my prediction. Good luck, and keep on rockin' J. R. Hodel, Hamlin WV --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 22:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tina Tuttle) Date: Thu Aug 7 21:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings Message-ID: Thanks to all who have responded to my question on hanksite so far. Thank you for taking the time to look up that citation. I do have a copy of the article and many others written over the past 90 years on Searles Lake. Unfortunately there is little mention of causation of the crusting, only practical remedies (some of which are...interesting. How many of you want to store your minerals in motor oil?). For those of you not familiar with the annual gem o rama at Searles Lake near Death Valley, it is a wonderful event to behold. 3 field trips over two days to collect all you can carry of cranberry halite, hanksite and a number of other evaporite minerals from this productive lakebed. For those of you up in the great white rainy north, its warm sunny October days in the desert with nary a cloud in the sky (at least in the last two years). I've started a newsletter series on the evaporite minerals of the Mojave desert and the latest focuses on Hanksite and associated minerals. The care of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, including the issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I actually found this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous query to the list on hanksite degradation. I've really enjoyed it so far. I welcome comments on your experiences and experiments with these minerals. cheers, tina "born again rock collector" Hello, may I help out? The handbook does not mention this question, so you have to look elsewhere. In the Mineralogical Record, 1975, Vol. 06, No. 2, page 074-083, there is a paper titled The Crystal Habits and Forms of the Minerals of Searles Lake, San Bernardino County, California. It may be useful but I did not look it up. Regards, J. Wachsmuth Ulm - Germany William S. Cordua schrieb: >Hi all, > Well, it didn't take long for this group to stump the prof. I've >done some book work and cannot find any information on the nature of the >coatings that form on hanksite. I don't have access to the multi-volume >Handbook of Mineralogy, so couldn't check there. It is possible that this >has not been studied. > The process isn't a dehydration, because there is no water in >hanksite's formula. Hanksite is water soluble, so its surfaces are etched >in humid air. I'd speculate that evaporation of thin watery condensate on >the crystal's surface could result in lose of sulfur or some other >component. That could leave a residue of some mixture of hydrated chlorides >or carbonates or ? forming the crusts. Cracks and cleavage surfaces would >allow water to penetrate into the crystal and hasten its deterioration. > Would be an interesting study for someone with the right >equipment. > >best wishes - Bill C. > >Dr. William S. Cordua >Professor of Geology/Mineralogy >University of Wisconsin - River Falls >410 South Third Street >River Falls, WI 54022 >715-425-3139 >william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu >"Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 23:12:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Thu Aug 7 22:12:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030803145400.009fa060@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3F333141.3080002@cox.net> Kitty, Great field trip report of New Zealand. It brought smiles of familiarity to my face. It is a lovely and charming country. People are friendly and gracious. I remember well the sulfur scent of Rotorua, and the wonderful caverns where I saw and heard a full orchestra give a concert from boats in the middle of the underground lake! Your telling of your experiences are great. Thank you very much. Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 23:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Thu Aug 7 22:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030803145400.009fa060@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <005901c35d5e$05ac6900$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Kitty, Thanks for sharing that trip. I just told Julie that we *are* going to New Zealand some day! She had no problem with that. John Santa, Idaho From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 7 23:37:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Thu Aug 7 22:37:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030803145400.009fa060@mail.aloha.net> <3F333141.3080002@cox.net> Message-ID: <005c01c35d5e$2785e060$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Terrie wrote: > I remember well the sulfur scent of Rotorua, and the wonderful caverns > where I saw and heard a full orchestra give a concert from boats in the > middle of the underground lake! Oh how cool Terrie! I would love to experience that one. John Santa, Idaho From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 07:56:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Aug 8 06:56:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings Message-ID: <200308081355.h78DtPbN019978@bubbleator.drizzle.com> > The care > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, including the > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I actually found > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous query to the > list on hanksite degradation. That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite crystals in trade a few years ago. I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its formula and method of formation told me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic region. The original owner had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry was already contaminated and in a hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight is 20/20, and in retrospect I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, and placed the remainder in a sealed container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight containers and dessicant, and transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant chamber is a task on my long list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to gather some of the briny solution along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am not certain it would be that simple. I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that difficult, given the proper equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the coating is crystalline or amorphous, and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometer we could identify the elements present. The same could be done with a polarized light microscope and a copy of Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, but would take longer. I think collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply because it is there to do and wonder aloud why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a scientific point of view there is no compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be the first one to describe the mechanism of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals formed in evaporative environments will deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, mineralogists, and geologists of the company owning Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and other delightful elements from their property. On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a simple project for a senior undergrad or junior graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion science," describing what I hope is a straightforward mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, I am going to try to find someone who has a hanksite that has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to powder, and someday take a look at what has happened. Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take measures to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally predisposed to do. Best regards, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 08:32:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Cornish) Date: Fri Aug 8 07:32:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Thank you; Questions Message-ID: <00ac01c35dba$3a0b38a0$05a4dccf@rockman> Hi All, First off, I really appreciate all of your chiming in on these. All the = answers and their deviations were great reading, and heck, I even = learned something (...to make the space, I wonder what I forgot?)!=20 =20 As a thought, a point that Bill made in one of his emails is sure a = strong one... "Margaret's comments point out the importance of defining = one's terms". In my second Question email, my pedestrian use of petrified, not = thinking of its actual meaning, just thinking of the quick and = dirty...i.e. petrified wood -pops- into my mind first, without thought, = well illustrates the importance of proof reading and actually thinking = about what we say. I bring this up likely more for myself then for = anyone else. This just shows so well how a moments indiscretion can lean = helpers away from actually deciphering the riddles of the questions = we're trying to ask.=20 =20 Thank you so very much everyone, it's really terrific to be among such = great folks! Take care, John P.S. Any of you Drizzlers around the Port Townsend, Washington area = stop by the Jefferson County Fair today and this weekend. Gloria and I = will be under the Main Grandstands with our geodes, crystals and = fossils. Say hi and share in the smiles.=20 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 08:38:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Aug 8 07:38:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rainbow obsidian & topaz Message-ID: <189.1d3cc4b4.2c650f8f@aol.com> Hi List, I am looking for a small quantity of rainbow obsidian for a couple of cabs. Also the folks that sent the names for obtaining Utah topaz. I know this is redundant, but I lost the info from the earlier request. Thanks all, and have a good weekend, Dave Phillips Sunset Fossils & Minerals Morgantown, WV --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 09:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny) Date: Fri Aug 8 08:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <002101c35af3$5bd2cbc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: Hi John, Kerosene probably won't do much. I believe it works on clays in fossils, but you are dealing with quartz and mica flakes in a schist, and the individual grains are quite well "stuck" together. The best method is to us a sand blaster with a medium that is softer than staurolite. As to the Freezeout kyanite, it may be small, but much of it is a lot darker blue than most of the kyanite on the Clearwater divide area. If size is what matters to you, try the kyanite on the west side of Goat Mtn, alongside the road. It is commonly 2 inches or better and an inch or so across and thick. Crystals can be picked up in the road. If you look at the few outcrops, you will see crystals to 6 inches or more. The color varies from nearly colorless to very pale bluish, greenish or pinkish. Regards, Lanny On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 06:46 PM, John Siebel wrote: > Hey Ron, > > Sorry for the delay in answering - our modem toasted from the excess > heat > and we were down for a while. I'm no expert on either staurolite or > kyanite. > We found small hard crystals, some twins, in loose gravel at one site, > and > larger weathered crystals in schist at another. I plan to try a soak in > kerosene to see if that loosens things up (as one would extricate a > fossil > from shale). Any thoughts on this? > > The kyanite at Freezeout Mt. was small and unimpressive but we'll be > back. > > John > Santa, Idaho > > > ----- Original Message ----- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 10:13:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mark) Date: Fri Aug 8 09:13:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <200308081355.h78DtPbN019978@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <003f01c35dc7$c82949d0$9700000a@pc1> Hi all, I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact with water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and decomposes into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the forming of crusts om the crystals. I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated solution of hanksite in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check the crystal shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying around :-( greetings, Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > The care > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, including the > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I actually found > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous query to the > > list on hanksite degradation. > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite crystals in trade a few years ago. > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its formula and method of formation told > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic region. The original owner > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry was already contaminated and in a > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight is 20/20, and in retrospect > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, and placed the remainder in a sealed > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight containers and dessicant, and > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant chamber is a task on my long > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to gather some of the briny solution > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am not certain it would be that simple. > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that difficult, given the proper > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the coating is crystalline or amorphous, > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometer we could > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a polarized light microscope and a copy of > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, but would take longer. I think > collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply because it is there to do and wonder aloud > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a scientific point of view there is no > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be the first one to describe the mechanism > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals formed in evaporative environments will > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, mineralogists, and geologists of the company owning > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > other delightful elements from their property. > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a simple project for a senior undergrad or junior > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion science," describing what I hope is a straightforward > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, I am going to try to find someone who has a hanksite that > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to powder, and someday take a look at what has > happened. > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take measures to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally predisposed to do. > > Best regards, > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 10:47:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Fri Aug 8 09:47:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Zealand trip report References: Message-ID: <001301c35dc9$38565ee0$29335841@powertech.net> > In a message dated 8/7/03 12:07:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kahako@aloha.net > writes: > > > . So we called the desk and they told us there > > were heating pipes in the ceiling! Sure enough, when we streached our arms > > straight up we could feel warm air above our heads! By waving newspapers > > and magazines in the air periodically we could fan the heat down to make > > the room reasonably comfortable! > > > Since so many other things are reversed, maybe the architect believe cold air > would rise and warm air would fall? > > Grant ;-}} Sometimes people just don't think! I recall once when I was in England, at a summer program at a college in Canterbury, the rooms had showers and bathtubs in small alcoves out in the hall. The alcoves had curtains -- OK. The shower was in an alcove just the width and length of a bathtub, but so arranged that the shower head was along the long wall, and pointed directly at the (curtained) opening; it could not be pointed down, only out! Only way it could have been used was to stand out in the hall, over against the far wall! Yet it had plainly been that way all along, with no attempt to correct the situation. So, as you can see, they are "bath takers", not "shower takers" in England! I've been in Australia, too, during the winter, and can observe that (at least once you get away from the coast and out of the cities--I can't speak for those areas) few places have any heat. Or there is a pot-bellied wood stove. They just don't seem to believe in any kind of central heating, so probably have no idea how to do it! ;-]] Margaret > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 11:43:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Aug 8 10:43:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings In-Reply-To: <200308081355.h78DtPbN019978@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030808074020.02042ec0@mail.aloha.net> >< I acquired several hanksite crystals in trade a few years ago. >method of formation told >< me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic >region. We got a large hanksite crystal a couple of years ago, and also knew nothing about it. Unfortunately I opened the ziplock bag it came in and set it on an antique sideboard, and didn't read the card with the formula until the next morning (stupid me)! When I read the card, I thought: "Uh oh!" and went to look at the hanksite. It was sitting in a small pool of what looked like water, and had developed a white coating in only about 18 hours (Hilo is very humid, BTW). I moved it to our air-conditioned study and rubbed it with mineral oil, but it never recovered. We've since acquired another sample and have done nothing to protect it but keep it in the sir-conditioned room, and it is fine. The sideboard, however, has not faired as well: the puddle of liquid ate through the wood finish and made a dark, almost black stain that will probably require sanding down the whole surface and refinishing. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 12:04:56 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Aug 8 11:04:56 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eye Agate Message-ID: Hello again, I seem to be making a pest of myself today, but does anyone on the list know of a source for eye agate? This is an agate that looks like an eyeball. Never seen any myself, but I have had a few requests for it. Thanks, Dave Phillips Sunset Fossils & Minerals Morgantown, WV --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 13:25:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Fri Aug 8 12:25:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rainbow obsidian & topaz In-Reply-To: <189.1d3cc4b4.2c650f8f@aol.com> Message-ID: ebay has tons, so does eastern oregon; pick yer poison. ;-) KM On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 07:37 AM, BETDAV97@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for a small quantity of rainbow obsidian for > a couple of cabs. Also Anarchy may not be the best form of government, but it's better than no government at all. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 13:53:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Fri Aug 8 12:53:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: hey thanks Lanny! I liked the blue i found up on Moses Butte, I assume Goat MT is in the same area?whoops - I think it comes up shoshone county on google although with not much details. If you had a small detail or three that would be great. Thanks a helluva lot in advance Kris M On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 08:49 AM, Lanny wrote: > As to the Freezeout kyanite, it may be small, but much of it is a lot > darker blue than most of the kyanite on the Clearwater divide area. If > size is what matters to you, try the kyanite on the west side of Goat > Mtn, alongside the road. It is commonly 2 inches or better and an inch > or so across and thick. Crystals can be picked up in the road. If you > look at the few outcrops, you will see crystals to 6 inches or more. > The color varies from nearly colorless to very pale bluish, greenish > or pinkish. Any great truth can -- and eventually will -- be expressed as a cliche -- a cliche is a sure and certain way to dilute an idea. For instance, my grandmother used to say, "The black cat is always the last one off the fence." I have no idea what she meant, but at one time, it was undoubtedly true. -- Solomon Short --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 18:33:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood) Date: Fri Aug 8 17:33:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bryan, Thanks for offering to help. I worked for the Florida Institute of Phosphate Research in Bartow, Florida from 1981-1987 and collected literally thousands of such teeth. Unfortunately, they all were given away as keepsakes and baubles for school children. When my Dad developed Alzheimer's about 7 years ago, he took all the remaining specimens out and buried them. We were never able to locate the spot where he took them. Thus, my request for help (!). Henry -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 3:06 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help I have a partial alligator/croc tooth from the Peace River and some small shark teeth from the same location. I don't know what the geological age of specimins from that river are tho. It might take some searching to find them too. Have you contacted any of the phosphate mines in the 'bone valley' area of Florida (near Bartow). They reportedly have hundreds of pounds of these teeth that they grind up daily. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Henry Barwood > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 09:06 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > > > I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic > characteristics > of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited > specimens of > fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, many years > ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or > otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin section for > petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are > shark, ray > and crocodile teeth from > the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and species (and > hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, etc. from the > Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to compare > fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I emphasize that I > intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do not > want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or scientific > value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount to > zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. > > Henry Barwood > Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science > MSCX 312G > Department of Math and Physics > Troy State University > Troy, Alabama 36082 > hbarwood@troyst.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 23:05:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Fri Aug 8 22:05:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite References: Message-ID: <002a01c35e22$d915f620$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Thanks Lanny, Julie and I are planning a few days out next week. We'll try Goat Mt. - unless we go somewhere else. Usually Julie's call being the navigator and all. John Santa, Idaho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny" > As to the Freezeout kyanite, it may be small, but much of it is a lot > darker blue than most of the kyanite on the Clearwater divide area. If > size is what matters to you, try the kyanite on the west side of Goat > Mtn, alongside the road. It is commonly 2 inches or better and an inch > or so across and thick. Crystals can be picked up in the road. If you > look at the few outcrops, you will see crystals to 6 inches or more. > The color varies from nearly colorless to very pale bluish, greenish or > pinkish. > > Regards, > > Lanny From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 8 23:55:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Aug 8 22:55:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eye Agate Message-ID: " The Gem Shop " They may have some left from old stock ...? Call and ask them.. Search the web for their site / etc.... --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 08:00:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 9 07:00:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eye Agate References: Message-ID: <001f01c35e7e$635b3d80$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> True eye agate has come from cutting agate features that look like stalactites or stalagmites and eye agates were available a century ago, although I'm sure a few suitable specimens still show up rarely. By true eye agate I mean dark and light color banded material which has a single symmetrical eye and of a size that shows the textural term has not been trivialized. The specimens I have seen are generally 10-20 cm across. Once in a while you see someone who is trying to promote a specimen which is noticeably elliptical and the purists deny the value of the specimen because it is not symmetrical. When an eye agate slab meets the requirements of the purists, the slabs sell for up to several thousand dollars. When they don't meet the strict standard, the collectors don't buy them at any premium. I know one dealer who started a private collection of eye agates which he didn't immediately intend to resell. He was aggressive in his search and had a small collection after two years. One year at Tucson, an elder German collector visited the dealer's room and saw an eye agate specimen on exhibit - "NFS" with a note indicating the dealer wanted to buy some more. The elder collector engaged in conversation and wanted to know how many were already in the dealer's collection. "Thirteen" was the reply. The elder collector nearly wept as he admitted he had been searching for symmetrical true eye agates over his lifetime and had only managed to get three! The dealer did note that enthusiastic dealer friends would promise him they could get him all the eye agates he wanted, but invariably the eyes did not meet the strict standard and were rejected. I reread the query and may have misread the intent. The spherical "eyeball" shaped agates can be made out of inferior agate which do not meet the standards required by larger slabs sought by eye agate purists. Have no idea who now provides them for sale. Try Jewel Tunnel Imports. I believe they have had them in the past. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 2:00 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Eye Agate > Hello again, > I seem to be making a pest of myself today, but does anyone > on the list know of a source for eye agate? This is an agate that > looks like an eyeball. Never seen any myself, but I have had a > few requests for it. Thanks, > Dave Phillips > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 08:04:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 9 07:04:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <200308081355.h78DtPbN019978@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <003f01c35dc7$c82949d0$9700000a@pc1> Message-ID: <002901c35e7e$f94980e0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you have much different conditions than a saturated water film on a hanksite cystal substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else from the solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the coating. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark" To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > Hi all, > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact with > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and decomposes > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the forming of > crusts om the crystals. > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated solution of hanksite > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check the crystal > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. > I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying around :-( > > greetings, > > Mark. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > The care > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, including > the > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I actually > found > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous query to > the > > > list on hanksite degradation. > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite crystals in > trade a few years ago. > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its formula and > method of formation told > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic > region. The original owner > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry was already > contaminated and in a > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight is > 20/20, and in retrospect > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, and placed the > remainder in a sealed > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight > containers and dessicant, and > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant chamber > is a task on my long > > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to gather > some of the briny solution > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am not > certain it would be that simple. > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that > difficult, given the proper > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the coating > is crystalline or amorphous, > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an inductively coupled > plasma mass spectrometer we could > > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a polarized > light microscope and a copy of > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, but > would take longer. I think > > collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply because > it is there to do and wonder aloud > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a > scientific point of view there is no > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be the > first one to describe the mechanism > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals formed > in evaporative environments will > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, mineralogists, and > geologists of the company owning > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > > other delightful elements from their property. > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a simple > project for a senior undergrad or junior > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion science," > describing what I hope is a straightforward > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, I am going to > try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to > powder, and someday take a look at what has > > happened. > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take measures > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally > predisposed to do. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Don > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 08:11:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 9 07:11:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <200308081355.h78DtPbN019978@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <003501c35e7f$e3b71570$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Good thinking, Don. I might add that there may be a sequence of alteration. The coating might transform with time into other compounds. A completely degraded hanksite might be a mixture of compounds or have changed from the original thin coating. The project could be worthy of a more extensive study. "Science is a wonderful thing. Nowhere else can you get such a wholesale amount of conjecture from a trifling investment of fact." - Mark Twain. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > The care > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, including the > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I actually found > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous query to the > > list on hanksite degradation. > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite crystals in trade a few years ago. > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its formula and method of formation told > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic region. The original owner > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry was already contaminated and in a > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight is 20/20, and in retrospect > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, and placed the remainder in a sealed > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight containers and dessicant, and > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant chamber is a task on my long > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to gather some of the briny solution > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am not certain it would be that simple. > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that difficult, given the proper > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the coating is crystalline or amorphous, > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometer we could > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a polarized light microscope and a copy of > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, but would take longer. I think > collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply because it is there to do and wonder aloud > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a scientific point of view there is no > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be the first one to describe the mechanism > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals formed in evaporative environments will > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, mineralogists, and geologists of the company owning > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > other delightful elements from their property. > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a simple project for a senior undergrad or junior > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion science," describing what I hope is a straightforward > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, I am going to try to find someone who has a hanksite that > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to powder, and someday take a look at what has > happened. > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take measures to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally predisposed to do. > > Best regards, > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 08:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mark) Date: Sat Aug 9 07:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <200308081355.h78DtPbN019978@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <003f01c35dc7$c82949d0$9700000a@pc1> <002901c35e7e$f94980e0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <001901c35e84$c26922f0$9700000a@pc1> Hi van, I don't know, what's the difference between a saturated water film on a crystal and a saturated solution? Yes you will probably crystallize something else from the solution, just as drying of the water film will produce something other than hanksite. My bet is that in both cases you will find the same mixture of salts. I agree though, if you want to be sure you will have to test the coating itself. Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Van" To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 16:03 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you have much > different conditions than a saturated water film on a hanksite cystal > substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else from the > solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the coating. > > Van > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > Hi all, > > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact with > > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and > decomposes > > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the forming of > > crusts om the crystals. > > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated solution of > hanksite > > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check the crystal > > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. > > I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying around :-( > > > > greetings, > > > > Mark. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > The care > > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, including > > the > > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I actually > > found > > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous query > to > > the > > > > list on hanksite degradation. > > > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite crystals in > > trade a few years ago. > > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its formula and > > method of formation told > > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic > > region. The original owner > > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry was already > > contaminated and in a > > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight is > > 20/20, and in retrospect > > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, and placed > the > > remainder in a sealed > > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight > > containers and dessicant, and > > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant > chamber > > is a task on my long > > > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to gather > > some of the briny solution > > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am not > > certain it would be that simple. > > > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that > > difficult, given the proper > > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the > coating > > is crystalline or amorphous, > > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an inductively coupled > > plasma mass spectrometer we could > > > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a polarized > > light microscope and a copy of > > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, but > > would take longer. I think > > > collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply > because > > it is there to do and wonder aloud > > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a > > scientific point of view there is no > > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be the > > first one to describe the mechanism > > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals formed > > in evaporative environments will > > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, mineralogists, > and > > geologists of the company owning > > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically > > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > > > other delightful elements from their property. > > > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a simple > > project for a senior undergrad or junior > > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion science," > > describing what I hope is a straightforward > > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, I am going to > > try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to > > powder, and someday take a look at what has > > > happened. > > > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take measures > > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally > > predisposed to do. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Don > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 09:01:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 9 08:01:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings In-Reply-To: <001901c35e84$c26922f0$9700000a@pc1> Message-ID: The difference would be that the saturated film is still in contact with the Hanksite and is in an equilibrium state with the mineral. The saturated solution would not be in contact with the original mineral. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Hi van, > > I don't know, what's the difference between a saturated water film on a > crystal and a saturated solution? Yes you will probably crystallize > something else from the solution, just as drying of the water film will > produce something other than hanksite. My bet is that in both > cases you will > find the same mixture of salts. > I agree though, if you want to be sure you will have to test the coating > itself. > > Mark. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Van" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 16:03 > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you have much > > different conditions than a saturated water film on a hanksite cystal > > substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else from the > > solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the coating. > > > > Van > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mark" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact > with > > > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and > > decomposes > > > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the forming > of > > > crusts om the crystals. > > > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated solution of > > hanksite > > > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check > the crystal > > > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. > > > I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying around :-( > > > > > > greetings, > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The care > > > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, > including > > > the > > > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I > actually > > > found > > > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous > query > > to > > > the > > > > > list on hanksite degradation. > > > > > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite > crystals in > > > trade a few years ago. > > > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its > formula and > > > method of formation told > > > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic > > > region. The original owner > > > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry > was already > > > contaminated and in a > > > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight > is > > > 20/20, and in retrospect > > > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, > and placed > > the > > > remainder in a sealed > > > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight > > > containers and dessicant, and > > > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant > > chamber > > > is a task on my long > > > > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to > gather > > > some of the briny solution > > > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am > not > > > certain it would be that simple. > > > > > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that > > > difficult, given the proper > > > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the > > coating > > > is crystalline or amorphous, > > > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an > inductively coupled > > > plasma mass spectrometer we could > > > > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a > polarized > > > light microscope and a copy of > > > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, > but > > > would take longer. I think > > > > collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply > > because > > > it is there to do and wonder aloud > > > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a > > > scientific point of view there is no > > > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be > the > > > first one to describe the mechanism > > > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals > formed > > > in evaporative environments will > > > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, > mineralogists, > > and > > > geologists of the company owning > > > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically > > > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > > > > other delightful elements from their property. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a > simple > > > project for a senior undergrad or junior > > > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion > science," > > > describing what I hope is a straightforward > > > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, > I am going > to > > > try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to > > > powder, and someday take a look at what has > > > > happened. > > > > > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take > measures > > > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > > > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally > > > predisposed to do. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 10:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mark) Date: Sat Aug 9 09:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: Message-ID: <002501c35e93$e1e41310$9700000a@pc1> Yes ok that might make a difference. The probability of metastable crystallizations might be higher. You could always do the experiment and leave some hanksite in the solution. Anyway, if hanksite is not a stable compound in contact with water, doesn't that imply that there is no such thing as a water-hanksite mixture in an equilibrium state? Mark.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 17:00 Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > The difference would be that the saturated film is still in contact with the > Hanksite and is in an equilibrium state with the mineral. The saturated > solution would not be in contact with the original mineral. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > Hi van, > > > > I don't know, what's the difference between a saturated water film on a > > crystal and a saturated solution? Yes you will probably crystallize > > something else from the solution, just as drying of the water film will > > produce something other than hanksite. My bet is that in both > > cases you will > > find the same mixture of salts. > > I agree though, if you want to be sure you will have to test the coating > > itself. > > > > Mark. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Van" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 16:03 > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you have much > > > different conditions than a saturated water film on a hanksite cystal > > > substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else from the > > > solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the coating. > > > > > > Van > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Mark" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact > > with > > > > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and > > > decomposes > > > > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the forming > > of > > > > crusts om the crystals. > > > > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated solution of > > > hanksite > > > > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check > > the crystal > > > > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. > > > > I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying around :-( > > > > > > > > greetings, > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The care > > > > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, > > including > > > > the > > > > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I > > actually > > > > found > > > > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to a previous > > query > > > to > > > > the > > > > > > list on hanksite degradation. > > > > > > > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite > > crystals in > > > > trade a few years ago. > > > > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its > > formula and > > > > method of formation told > > > > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid mid-Atlantic > > > > region. The original owner > > > > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry > > was already > > > > contaminated and in a > > > > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. Hindsight > > is > > > > 20/20, and in retrospect > > > > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, > > and placed > > > the > > > > remainder in a sealed > > > > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased some airtight > > > > containers and dessicant, and > > > > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the dessicant > > > chamber > > > > is a task on my long > > > > > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to > > gather > > > > some of the briny solution > > > > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I am > > not > > > > certain it would be that simple. > > > > > > > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be that > > > > difficult, given the proper > > > > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could determine if the > > > coating > > > > is crystalline or amorphous, > > > > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an > > inductively coupled > > > > plasma mass spectrometer we could > > > > > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a > > polarized > > > > light microscope and a copy of > > > > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate reagents, > > but > > > > would take longer. I think > > > > > collectors expect that research such as this has been done simply > > > because > > > > it is there to do and wonder aloud > > > > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, though, from a > > > > scientific point of view there is no > > > > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to be > > the > > > > first one to describe the mechanism > > > > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that soluble minerals > > formed > > > > in evaporative environments will > > > > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, > > mineralogists, > > > and > > > > geologists of the company owning > > > > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to economically > > > > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > > > > > other delightful elements from their property. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a > > simple > > > > project for a senior undergrad or junior > > > > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion > > science," > > > > describing what I hope is a straightforward > > > > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, > > I am going > > to > > > > try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > > > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to > > > > powder, and someday take a look at what has > > > > > happened. > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take > > measures > > > > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > > > > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is naturally > > > > predisposed to do. > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 10:56:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny) Date: Sat Aug 9 09:56:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <002a01c35e22$d915f620$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <27764441-CA8A-11D7-A6B4-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> Good luck. there is a lot of country up there and a number of garnet locations that are "kept secret." Thus, there are always more things to find if one drives the logging roads and looks at outcrops. Of course up on the divide area there are no new roads, but still a lot of outcrops and country to prospect. Lanny On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 08:03 PM, John Siebel wrote: > Thanks Lanny, > > Julie and I are planning a few days out next week. We'll try Goat Mt. - > unless we go somewhere else. Usually Julie's call being the navigator > and > all. > > John > Santa, Idaho > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lanny" > >> As to the Freezeout kyanite, it may be small, but much of it is a lot >> darker blue than most of the kyanite on the Clearwater divide area. If >> size is what matters to you, try the kyanite on the west side of Goat >> Mtn, alongside the road. It is commonly 2 inches or better and an inch >> or so across and thick. Crystals can be picked up in the road. If you >> look at the few outcrops, you will see crystals to 6 inches or more. >> The color varies from nearly colorless to very pale bluish, greenish >> or >> pinkish. >> >> Regards, >> >> Lanny > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 11:02:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 9 10:02:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings In-Reply-To: <002501c35e93$e1e41310$9700000a@pc1> Message-ID: Well I assume the Hanksite crystallized out of the solution at Searls lake so there must be some conditions that allow that to happen, or is this some sort of metamorphosed salt? I'm completely ignorant on how this material forms in the first place. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > Yes ok that might make a difference. The probability of metastable > crystallizations might be higher. You could always do the experiment and > leave some hanksite in the solution. Anyway, if hanksite is not a stable > compound in contact with water, doesn't that imply that there is no such > thing as a water-hanksite mixture in an equilibrium state? > > Mark.. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 17:00 > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > The difference would be that the saturated film is still in contact with > the > > Hanksite and is in an equilibrium state with the mineral. The saturated > > solution would not be in contact with the original mineral. > > > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > Hi van, > > > > > > I don't know, what's the difference between a saturated water > film on a > > > crystal and a saturated solution? Yes you will probably crystallize > > > something else from the solution, just as drying of the water > film will > > > produce something other than hanksite. My bet is that in both > > > cases you will > > > find the same mixture of salts. > > > I agree though, if you want to be sure you will have to test > the coating > > > itself. > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Van" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 16:03 > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you > have much > > > > different conditions than a saturated water film on a > hanksite cystal > > > > substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else from the > > > > solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the coating. > > > > > > > > Van > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Mark" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in > contact > > > with > > > > > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and > > > > decomposes > > > > > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the > forming > > > of > > > > > crusts om the crystals. > > > > > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated > solution of > > > > hanksite > > > > > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check > > > the crystal > > > > > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. > > > > > I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying > around :-( > > > > > > > > > > greetings, > > > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The care > > > > > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, > > > including > > > > > the > > > > > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I > > > actually > > > > > found > > > > > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to > a previous > > > query > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > list on hanksite degradation. > > > > > > > > > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite > > > crystals in > > > > > trade a few years ago. > > > > > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its > > > formula and > > > > > method of formation told > > > > > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid > mid-Atlantic > > > > > region. The original owner > > > > > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry > > > was already > > > > > contaminated and in a > > > > > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. > Hindsight > > > is > > > > > 20/20, and in retrospect > > > > > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, > > > and placed > > > > the > > > > > remainder in a sealed > > > > > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased > some airtight > > > > > containers and dessicant, and > > > > > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the > dessicant > > > > chamber > > > > > is a task on my long > > > > > > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to > > > gather > > > > > some of the briny solution > > > > > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I > am > > > not > > > > > certain it would be that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be > that > > > > > difficult, given the proper > > > > > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could > determine if the > > > > coating > > > > > is crystalline or amorphous, > > > > > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an > > > inductively coupled > > > > > plasma mass spectrometer we could > > > > > > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a > > > polarized > > > > > light microscope and a copy of > > > > > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate > reagents, > > > but > > > > > would take longer. I think > > > > > > collectors expect that research such as this has been > done simply > > > > because > > > > > it is there to do and wonder aloud > > > > > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, > though, from > a > > > > > scientific point of view there is no > > > > > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to > be > > > the > > > > > first one to describe the mechanism > > > > > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that > soluble minerals > > > formed > > > > > in evaporative environments will > > > > > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, > > > mineralogists, > > > > and > > > > > geologists of the company owning > > > > > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to > economically > > > > > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > > > > > > other delightful elements from their property. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this > would be a > > > simple > > > > > project for a senior undergrad or junior > > > > > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion > > > science," > > > > > describing what I hope is a straightforward > > > > > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, > > > I am going > > > to > > > > > try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > > > > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn > to > > > > > powder, and someday take a look at what has > > > > > > happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take > > > measures > > > > > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > > > > > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is > naturally > > > > > predisposed to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 13:04:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mark) Date: Sat Aug 9 12:04:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: Message-ID: <003801c35ea8$dab46d00$9700000a@pc1> I too believe hanksite crystallizes out of a solution, but no doubt this solution is not like plain water. The temperature might be different, the relative amounts of sulphate, carbonate etc. will be different compared to the hanksit formula, maybe other salts (borates?) have an effect too. I think it is quite possible that hanksite is stable in the Searles lake brine but not in water. I don't know if it does, but if hanksite decomposes with water (if I remember correctly this is called incongruent solubility) then coating hanksite crystals with mineral oil or something could be a very bad idea. Say, a hanksite'solution' in plain water is oversaturated in respect to some other salts. These salts will crystallize, leading to more hanksite partially going in to solution, more of the other salts will crystallize, more hanksite dissolves etc. I other words, a small volume of water could theoretically decompose a complete hanksite crystal. This would mean that small amounts of water on the surface of a hanksite crystal, or in small cracks, will continue to attack the crystals, whether or not they are covered with oil. With salts that don't show incongruent solubility this would be no problem of course. A tiny amount of water will only dissolve a tiny amount of salt. Maybe even incongruent solubility of hanksite in mineral oil, however small, could in time ruin a crystal. I will try to get a hanksite specimen and do some experiments. greetings, Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 19:01 Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > Well I assume the Hanksite crystallized out of the solution at Searls lake > so there must be some conditions that allow that to happen, or is this some > sort of metamorphosed salt? I'm completely ignorant on how this material > forms in the first place. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > Yes ok that might make a difference. The probability of metastable > > crystallizations might be higher. You could always do the experiment and > > leave some hanksite in the solution. Anyway, if hanksite is not a stable > > compound in contact with water, doesn't that imply that there is no such > > thing as a water-hanksite mixture in an equilibrium state? > > > > Mark.. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 17:00 > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > The difference would be that the saturated film is still in contact with > > the > > > Hanksite and is in an equilibrium state with the mineral. The saturated > > > solution would not be in contact with the original mineral. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > Hi van, > > > > > > > > I don't know, what's the difference between a saturated water > > film on a > > > > crystal and a saturated solution? Yes you will probably crystallize > > > > something else from the solution, just as drying of the water > > film will > > > > produce something other than hanksite. My bet is that in both > > > > cases you will > > > > find the same mixture of salts. > > > > I agree though, if you want to be sure you will have to test > > the coating > > > > itself. > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Van" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 16:03 > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you > > have much > > > > > different conditions than a saturated water film on a > > hanksite cystal > > > > > substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else from the > > > > > solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the coating. > > > > > > > > > > Van > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Mark" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in > > contact > > > > with > > > > > > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts water and > > > > > decomposes > > > > > > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain the > > forming > > > > of > > > > > > crusts om the crystals. > > > > > > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated > > solution of > > > > > hanksite > > > > > > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check > > > > the crystal > > > > > > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the solution. > > > > > > I would try it myself but I don't have any hanksite lying > > around :-( > > > > > > > > > > > > greetings, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The care > > > > > > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the collector, > > > > including > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid environments. I > > > > actually > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to > > a previous > > > > query > > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > list on hanksite degradation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite > > > > crystals in > > > > > > trade a few years ago. > > > > > > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its > > > > formula and > > > > > > method of formation told > > > > > > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid > > mid-Atlantic > > > > > > region. The original owner > > > > > > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the chemistry > > > > was already > > > > > > contaminated and in a > > > > > > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. > > Hindsight > > > > is > > > > > > 20/20, and in retrospect > > > > > > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the open, > > > > and placed > > > > > the > > > > > > remainder in a sealed > > > > > > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased > > some airtight > > > > > > containers and dessicant, and > > > > > > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the > > dessicant > > > > > chamber > > > > > > is a task on my long > > > > > > > list of things to do. I have heard that the best solution is to > > > > gather > > > > > > some of the briny solution > > > > > > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, though I > > am > > > > not > > > > > > certain it would be that simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite wouldn't be > > that > > > > > > difficult, given the proper > > > > > > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could > > determine if the > > > > > coating > > > > > > is crystalline or amorphous, > > > > > > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an > > > > inductively coupled > > > > > > plasma mass spectrometer we could > > > > > > > identify the elements present. The same could be done with a > > > > polarized > > > > > > light microscope and a copy of > > > > > > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the appropriate > > reagents, > > > > but > > > > > > would take longer. I think > > > > > > > collectors expect that research such as this has been > > done simply > > > > > because > > > > > > it is there to do and wonder aloud > > > > > > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, > > though, from > > a > > > > > > scientific point of view there is no > > > > > > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each other to > > be > > > > the > > > > > > first one to describe the mechanism > > > > > > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that > > soluble minerals > > > > formed > > > > > > in evaporative environments will > > > > > > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, > > > > mineralogists, > > > > > and > > > > > > geologists of the company owning > > > > > > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to > > economically > > > > > > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and > > > > > > > other delightful elements from their property. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this > > would be a > > > > simple > > > > > > project for a senior undergrad or junior > > > > > > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion > > > > science," > > > > > > describing what I hope is a straightforward > > > > > > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, > > > > I am going > > > > to > > > > > > try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > > > > > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn > > to > > > > > > powder, and someday take a look at what has > > > > > > > happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may be able to take > > > > measures > > > > > > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some > > > > > > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is > > naturally > > > > > > predisposed to do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 14:03:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Sat Aug 9 13:03:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings In-Reply-To: <003801c35ea8$dab46d00$9700000a@pc1> Message-ID: <000101c35eb1$282f32b0$f2dec850@maxdata> I learned many years ago that treatment of hanksite crystals with baby oil works well against atmospheric weathering (I used all the time those classical yellow plastic flasks "Zwitsal baby oil" - I don't know if they are on the market outside Europe). The difference with mineral oil is the fact that this type of oil is extremely soft and pure (especially concerning the presence of free acids etc.), and it is not incompatible with water. Real mineral oil is very hydrophobic and water repellent, and for that reason it will not fill up small crevices and cracks of a material with a surface that is very hydrophylic ... baby oil does. The only problem is that once the crystals are treated you get a false fluorescence. On labeling it should be mentioned that the crystals are treated with baby oil which causes a slight fluorescence. Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Mark *Sent: zaterdag 9 augustus 2003 21:00 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings * * *I too believe hanksite crystallizes out of a solution, but no *doubt this solution is not like plain water. The temperature *might be different, the relative amounts of sulphate, *carbonate etc. will be different compared to the hanksit *formula, maybe other salts (borates?) have an effect too. I *think it is quite possible that hanksite is stable in the *Searles lake brine but not in water. I don't know if it does, *but if hanksite decomposes with water (if I remember correctly *this is called incongruent solubility) then coating hanksite *crystals with mineral oil or something could be a very bad *idea. Say, a hanksite'solution' in plain water is *oversaturated in respect to some other salts. These salts will *crystallize, leading to more hanksite partially going in to *solution, more of the other salts will crystallize, more *hanksite dissolves etc. I other words, a small volume of water *could theoretically decompose a complete hanksite crystal. *This would mean that small amounts of water on the surface of *a hanksite crystal, or in small cracks, will continue to *attack the crystals, whether or not they are covered with oil. *With salts that don't show incongruent solubility this would *be no problem of course. A tiny amount of water will only *dissolve a tiny amount of salt. Maybe even incongruent *solubility of hanksite in mineral oil, however small, could in *time ruin a crystal. I will try to get a hanksite specimen and *do some experiments. * *greetings, * *Mark * * *----- Original Message ----- *From: "J Bryan Kramer" *To: *Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 19:01 *Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings * * *> Well I assume the Hanksite crystallized out of the solution *at Searls *> lake so there must be some conditions that allow that to *happen, or is *> this *some *> sort of metamorphosed salt? I'm completely ignorant on how this *> material forms in the first place. *> *> Bryan *> *> "Si vis pacem para bellum" *> *> > *> > Yes ok that might make a difference. The probability of metastable *> > crystallizations might be higher. You could always do the *experiment *> > and leave some hanksite in the solution. Anyway, if *hanksite is not *> > a stable compound in contact with water, doesn't that imply that *> > there is no such thing as a water-hanksite mixture in an *equilibrium *> > state? *> > *> > Mark.. *> > *> > ----- Original Message ----- *> > From: "J Bryan Kramer" *> > To: *> > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 17:00 *> > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings *> > *> > *> > > The difference would be that the saturated film is still in *> > > contact *with *> > the *> > > Hanksite and is in an equilibrium state with the mineral. The *saturated *> > > solution would not be in contact with the original mineral. *> > > *> > > Bryan *> > > *> > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" *> > > *> > > *> > > > Hi van, *> > > > *> > > > I don't know, what's the difference between a saturated water *> > film on a *> > > > crystal and a saturated solution? Yes you will probably *> > > > crystallize something else from the solution, just as *drying of *> > > > the water *> > film will *> > > > produce something other than hanksite. My bet is that in both *> > > > cases you will find the same mixture of salts. *> > > > I agree though, if you want to be sure you will have to test *> > the coating *> > > > itself. *> > > > *> > > > Mark. *> > > > *> > > > *> > > > ----- Original Message ----- *> > > > From: "Van" *> > > > To: *> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 16:03 *> > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings *> > > > *> > > > *> > > > > The problem of making a solution out a hanksite is that you *> > have much *> > > > > different conditions than a saturated water film on a *> > hanksite cystal *> > > > > substrate. You quite likely will crystallize something else *> > > > > from *the *> > > > > solution. The way to identify the coating is to test the *> > > > > coating. *> > > > > *> > > > > Van *> > > > > *> > > > > *> > > > > *> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- *> > > > > From: "Mark" *> > > > > To: *> > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:11 PM *> > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings *> > > > > *> > > > > *> > > > > > Hi all, *> > > > > > *> > > > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound *> > > > > > in *> > contact *> > > > with *> > > > > > water under atmosperic conditions. If hanksite attracts *> > > > > > water *and *> > > > > decomposes *> > > > > > into a mixture of (less complex) salts, this would explain *> > > > > > the *> > forming *> > > > of *> > > > > > crusts om the crystals. *> > > > > > I believe it's easy to test this, by making a saturated *> > solution of *> > > > > hanksite *> > > > > > in water, filter it and let it evaporate slowly. Then check *> > > > the crystal *> > > > > > shapes of the salts that will crystallize out of the *> > > > > > solution. I would try it myself but I don't have any *> > > > > > hanksite lying *> > around :-( *> > > > > > *> > > > > > greetings, *> > > > > > *> > > > > > Mark. *> > > > > > *> > > > > > *> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- *> > > > > > From: *> > > > > > To: *> > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 15:55 *> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings *> > > > > > *> > > > > > *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > > The care *> > > > > > > > of hanksite poses a few little challenges to the *> > > > > > > > collector, *> > > > including *> > > > > > the *> > > > > > > > issue of the "dusting and crusting" in humid *> > > > > > > > environments. I *> > > > actually *> > > > > > found *> > > > > > > > this list because of a keyword search that linked to *> > a previous *> > > > query *> > > > > to *> > > > > > the *> > > > > > > > list on hanksite degradation. *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > That was probably my thread. I acquired several hanksite *> > > > crystals in *> > > > > > trade a few years ago. *> > > > > > > I had never heard of the mineral, but a quick look at its *> > > > formula and *> > > > > > method of formation told *> > > > > > > me I'd need to protect it immediately here in the humid *> > mid-Atlantic *> > > > > > region. The original owner *> > > > > > > had coated them with mineral oil already, so the *chemistry *> > > > was already *> > > > > > contaminated and in a *> > > > > > > hasty decision, I decided to immerse them in mineral oil. *> > Hindsight *> > > > is *> > > > > > 20/20, and in retrospect *> > > > > > > I would have immersed half of them, kept a few in the *> > > > > > > open, *> > > > and placed *> > > > > the *> > > > > > remainder in a sealed *> > > > > > > container with a dessicant. I have since purchased *> > some airtight *> > > > > > containers and dessicant, and *> > > > > > > transferring the crystals from their sunken home to the *> > dessicant *> > > > > chamber *> > > > > > is a task on my long *> > > > > > > list of things to do. I have heard that the *best solution *> > > > > > > is *to *> > > > gather *> > > > > > some of the briny solution *> > > > > > > along with your specimens and keep them immersed in it, *> > > > > > > though *I *> > am *> > > > not *> > > > > > certain it would be that simple. *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > I suppose the analysis of what happens to hanksite *> > > > > > > wouldn't be *> > that *> > > > > > difficult, given the proper *> > > > > > > equipment. Using a x-ray diffractometer we could *> > determine if the *> > > > > coating *> > > > > > is crystalline or amorphous, *> > > > > > > and using an atomic absorption spectrometer or an *> > > > inductively coupled *> > > > > > plasma mass spectrometer we could *> > > > > > > identify the elements present. The same could be done *> > > > > > > with a *> > > > polarized *> > > > > > light microscope and a copy of *> > > > > > > Chamot & Mason Vol. II as a reference, and the *appropriate *> > reagents, *> > > > but *> > > > > > would take longer. I think *> > > > > > > collectors expect that research such as this has been *> > done simply *> > > > > because *> > > > > > it is there to do and wonder aloud *> > > > > > > why there is nothing written on the subject. Really, *> > though, from *> > a *> > > > > > scientific point of view there is no *> > > > > > > compelling reason for analysts to be tripping over each *> > > > > > > other *to *> > be *> > > > the *> > > > > > first one to describe the mechanism *> > > > > > > of hanksite degradation. It is no surprise that *> > soluble minerals *> > > > formed *> > > > > > in evaporative environments will *> > > > > > > deliquesce and otherwise degrade. The staff chemists, *> > > > mineralogists, *> > > > > and *> > > > > > geologists of the company owning *> > > > > > > Searles Lake are more interested, I suppose, in how to *> > economically *> > > > > > extract the sodium, potassium, sulfur, and *> > > > > > > other delightful elements from their property. *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this *> > would be a *> > > > simple *> > > > > > project for a senior undergrad or junior *> > > > > > > graduate student. While some might deride this as *> > > > > > > "corrosion *> > > > science," *> > > > > > describing what I hope is a straightforward *> > > > > > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. * In fact, *> > > > I am going *> > > > to *> > > > > > try to find someone who has a hanksite that *> > > > > > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit *> > > > > > > and *turn *> > to *> > > > > > powder, and someday take a look at what has *> > > > > > > happened. *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > Ultimately, nature is inexorable. While we may *be able to *take *> > > > measures *> > > > > > to preserve specimens--some ordinary, some *> > > > > > > extraordinary--in the end, a mineral will do what it is *> > naturally *> > > > > > predisposed to do. *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > Best regards, *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > Don *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ *> > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> > > > > > > Subscription Services: *> > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > > > > > > *> > > > > > *> > > > > > _______________________________________________ *> > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> > > > > > Subscription Services: *> > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > > > > > *> > > > > *> > > > > *> > > > > _______________________________________________ *> > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> > > > > Subscription Services: *> > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > > > > *> > > > *> > > > _______________________________________________ *> > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> > > > Subscription Services: *> > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > > > *> > > *> > > *> > > _______________________________________________ *> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> > > Subscription Services: *> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > > *> > *> > _______________________________________________ *> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> > Subscription Services: *> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > *> *> *> _______________________________________________ *> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> Subscription Services: *> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> * *_______________________________________________ *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *Subscription Services: *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds * * From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 9 22:31:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Aug 9 21:31:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings Message-ID: <1e4.eb2fcbe.2c672469@aol.com> > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact with > water under atmospheric conditions. When I went to Searles Lake there were some Geo-something-or-other students sorting through crystals next to me. They stated that dissolved Hanksite will not recrystallize at standard pressure. They claimed that it had formed at some depth in the drying or dry lake. Mark, Email me with your address and I'll mail you a couple little ones. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 07:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Aug 10 06:45:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] how to properly etch =?iso-8859-1?Q?Widmanst=E4tten?= lines? Message-ID: <3F364C62.3D892869@att.net> Hi, While sorting the an old collection, I found an 8 cm rock, sliced at one end, that is almost certainly a meteorite. It has the density and physical appearance of the Barringer Crater (Canyon Diablo, Meteor Crater) fall. I am not really a meteorite collector so this comparison is superficial, and it might be from any number of other nickel-iron falls. In any case, the final determination would be to etch Widmanstätten patterns in the sliced section. It looks like someone already tried to etch the poor thing, some if it is black, some frosty, and there is only a hint of the tell-tale pattern. Obviously my first step would be to re-polish it. As far as the etching goes, there is conflicting information available and I have not found anything that looks authoritative. I remember a discussion on this topic not long ago on one of the lists; and I remember being told the straight nitric acid is not the answer, but that there is a more subtle method. I would appreciate any authoritative references! Thanks, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 09:12:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Horst Windisch) Date: Sun Aug 10 08:12:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: July Newsletter Message-ID: <003701c35f4f$34ab4300$633e27c4@horstspc> ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Douw Steyn=20 To: Pretoria Gem & Mineral Club=20 Cc: Central Gem and Mineral Club ; Gem and Mineral Society of Zimbabwe ; = Kimberley Lapidary Club ; Mineralogical Society of Southern Africa Cape = Town ; Namaqualand Mineral Society ; Natal Mineral & Gem Society ; = Pietermaritzburg Gem and Mineral Club ; Pretoria Gem & Mineral Club ; = South African Gem and Mineral Club ; Walvis Bay Gem and Mineral Club ; = Witwatersrand Gem & Mineral Club ; Zululand Rock & Mineral Club=20 Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:46 AM Subject: July Newsletter --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html application/msword --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 09:25:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Sun Aug 10 08:25:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BRockhounds=5D_how_to_properly_etch_Widmanst=E4tte?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n_lines=3F?= In-Reply-To: <3F364C62.3D892869@att.net> Message-ID: <000501c35f53$6cc6fb90$b1dfc850@maxdata> *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Don H *Sent: zondag 10 augustus 2003 15:45 *To: R&F; rockhounds; RockhoundsList@yahoogroups.com *Subject: [Rockhounds] how to properly etch Widmanstätten lines? While sorting the an old collection, I found an 8 cm rock, sliced at one end, that is almost certainly a meteorite. It has the density and physical appearance of the Barringer Crater (Canyon Diablo, MeteorCrater) fall. I am not really a meteorite collector so this comparison is superficial, and it might be from any number of other nickel-iron falls. In any case, the final determination would be to etch Widmanstätten patterns in the sliced section. It looks like someone already tried to etch the poor thing, some if it is black, some frosty, and there is only a hint of the tell-tale pattern. Obviously my first step would be to re-polish it. As far as the etching goes, there is conflicting information available and I have not found anything that looks authoritative. I remember a discussion on this topic not long ago on one of the lists; and I remember being told the straight nitric acid is not the answer, but that there is a more subtle method. I would appreciate any authoritative references! >>>>> Attention : if a Widmanstätten pattern can be developed, you are sure about the fact that's a meteorite, but if you fail to produce a Widmanstätten figure it is no proof that it isn't a meteorite. Widmanstätten figures are typical for octahedrites, but their occurrence is very dependent on the composition (Ni-content) and the cooling rate. The Ni-content determines wether only taenite is present, or also kamacite. If my memory still works at the actual temperatures we are experiencing here (up to nearly 40°C) no Widmanstätten figures are observed if the overall Ni-content is below 6% or above 25 % (order of magnitude). We examined years ago a piece of the Santa Catharina meteorite, which contained about 35 % Ni, and we could not develop any Widmanstätten figures. Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 09:41:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Aug 10 08:41:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] how to properly etch =?iso-8859-1?Q?Widmanst=E4tten?= lines? References: <000501c35f53$6cc6fb90$b1dfc850@maxdata> Message-ID: <3F366784.19939528@att.net> Attention : if a Widmanstätten pattern can be developed, you are sure about the fact that's a meteorite, but if you fail to produce a Widmanstätten figure it is no proof that it isn't a meteorite. Widmanstätten figures are typical for octahedrites, but their occurrence is very dependent on the composition (Ni-content) and the cooling rate. The Ni-content determines wether only taenite is present, or also kamacite. If my memory still works at the actual temperatures we are experiencing here (up to nearly 40°C) no Widmanstätten figures are observed if the overall Ni-content is below 6% or above 25 % (order of magnitude). We examined years ago a piece of the Santa Catharina meteorite, which contained about 35 % Ni, and we could not develop any Widmanstätten figures. Rik DILLEN Thank you Rik, that is magnificent information. I am as certain as I can be from observation that this is a meteorite; and as discussed, there are some faint beginnings of lines from the previous etching attempt. There was no label with the piece and I have no idea how many people owned it before the last owner. He has been deceased for some time so there is no way to find out more about the specimen. I am creating a museum display with this piece, and I wanted to clean the cut face and etch the lines for display. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 10:07:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 10 09:07:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cleaning Silver/Turquoise Jewelry Message-ID: <20030810.085948.-313905.0.stevenkaminski@juno.com> Hi List, My mother just inherited a silver and turquoise necklace. The silver is the fine cylindrical beads (liquid silver) and "bugle" form (not squash-blossom but similar) with turquoise stones. The silver is pretty tarnished and she wants to restore it. Is this something she can do or should it go to a jeweler. Any suggestions? ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 10:30:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tina Tuttle) Date: Sun Aug 10 09:30:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite formation & brine solution Message-ID: Regrading Mark and Don's comments to my last post: Soaking Hanksite in the brine will dissolve the crystal inside a few days. Added heat will expedite the process. Someone sent me a pic of what happens to a bucket of crystals soaking in brine that they left in their garage for an unspecified amount of time--an amalgamation of the crystals in an unattractive cemented mess. The brine is imperative for cleaning the muddy hanksites, but pitting and etching will occur with extended exposure. Whether new crystals will form, I do not know. They form in two different zones under the lake bed. To Don--in your original email you mention two different types of the hanksite that you acquired; briefly, to respond to that--the mud hanksite, found in the overburden mud in the margins of the lakebed is the darker green crystal, most often pinacoidal (flat ends), usually much larger than the lighter colored hanksite with hexagonal terminations which is from a brine layer 30-50 feet below the surface that is pumped up and sprayed on the lakes surface for collectors. The mud hanksites tend to be larger with single crystals as large as 5" and many large football sized crystal clusters including other minerals like borax and trona. Your observations from your longitudinal study were very helpful for me, and confirmed the observations of many others who have collected these for years. I have found that my specimens that are stored in acrylic boxes from 2 years ago are still completely devoid of crusting. The most common method used by collectors and dealers is acrylic spray, but this method, imperfect at best, seems to have a shelf life of 7 years or so before the seal begins to break down and crusting begins unless a new coating applied. This is also largely dependent on on how good the spray job was and whether one sprays after application of mineral oil (which doesn't promote adherence). Sadly I don't have an acrylic case big enough for the large football sized twinning clusters and I've watched as they have formed the fine white dusting and crusting. Mineral oil is the preferred method to preserve(immersing them and drying them off) by many who have enclosed cases, but if not airtight, crusting will eventually occur. My acrylic container specimens were covered in a light baby oil (min. oil w/ perfume, and considerable cheaper). The former curator of the san bernardino co. museum in southern California and the current president of the Southern California Friends of Minerology noted that the museum's hanksite crystals kept under hot lights in a case did not dust or crust after several years. The heat from the lights no doubt held moisture at bay. The following are the contents of the brine solution as provided by the Searles Lake Gem and Mineral Society: 300,000 mgm/liter of sodium chloride, 70,000 mgm/liter of sodium sulfate, 10,000 mgm/liter of borax and 30,000 mgm/liter of sodium carbonate The upcoming Access Mojave Minerals newsletter discusses conservation at length. If you are interested, I can mail you a copy when they come out later this month. Anyone who wants to do expermients- I will gladly supply you with specimens of either mud or brine hanksites! I've longed for another remedy that doesn't require such invasive techniques for preservation. email tinaintundra@hotmail.com cheers, tina tuttle _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 10:31:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Aug 10 09:31:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cleaning Silver/Turquoise Jewelry References: <20030810.085948.-313905.0.stevenkaminski@juno.com> Message-ID: <3F367352.536CBED9@att.net> stevenkaminski@juno.com wrote: > > My mother just inherited a silver and turquoise necklace. The silver is > the fine cylindrical beads (liquid silver) and "bugle" form (not > squash-blossom but similar) with turquoise stones. The silver is pretty > tarnished and she wants to restore it. Is this something she can do or > should it go to a jeweler. Any suggestions? A purist would advise you not to clean it, especially if it is an antique. However, if she still wants to clean it, there are a number of immersions available and you can do this at home. The question remains whether these cleaning immersions are safe for turquoise; I hope someone can answer that. If this is old turquoise, it may not be stabilized, and is therefore relatively porous. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I seem to remember something about a solution of baking soda and a strip of aluminium foil; please don't try this on my say-so, but do pursue it through searches and queries. It may be a dead end though. I hope this has been some help. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 10:39:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Sun Aug 10 09:39:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cleaning Silver/Turquoise Jewelry References: <20030810.085948.-313905.0.stevenkaminski@juno.com> Message-ID: <3F367522.6040603@cox.net> Steve, She must protect the Turquoise however she does clean the silver. The Speed Brite Ionic Cleaner is the best to do that job. The solution is safe for pearls, coral and turquoise. If you do not have access to one, they are not expensive, I would be happy to do that for her. Where is she located? Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 10:45:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tina Tuttle) Date: Sun Aug 10 09:45:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite samples for experiment! Message-ID: To Don: Certainly it would be great to interest someone in conducting this research, even if it was corrosion science! In an era where access to mining properties is declining rapidly, we can't always assume we'll have an endless source of hanksites. If access to SEarles is closed, so would the only known source of hanksites. So it would be great to preserve what we have. To that end, I will gladly provide you with completely untreated specimens (altho they still have a slight mud coating) to conduct your experiment! cheers, tina tuttle email: tinaintundra@hotmail.com On the other hand, unless I am missing something, this would be a simple >project for a senior undergrad or junior > > graduate student. While some might deride this as "corrosion science," >describing what I hope is a straightforward > > mechanism would be a good exercise in chemistry. In fact, I am going to >try to find someone who has a hanksite that > > has never been treated since its collection, let it sit and turn to >powder, and someday take a look at what has > > happened. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 10:53:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Sun Aug 10 09:53:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] pseudogaylussit from Holland Message-ID: <002601c35f5f$bbea6b60$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Hi Rockhounders ! Sometimes (very sometimes ;-) Holland is a little more than = tulips&windmills You might even find 'minerals' there... 'pseudogaylussit' in this case see pics on: http://www.strahlen.org/vp/bobeldijk/ ps: no cows, wooden shoes etc on the pics Cheers! Frank http://www.strahlen.org/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 11:22:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Aug 10 10:22:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite formation & brine solution References: Message-ID: <3F367F48.94489245@att.net> > The upcoming Access Mojave Minerals newsletter discusses conservation at > length. If you are interested, I can mail you a copy when they come out > later this month. Anyone who wants to do expermients- I will gladly supply > you with specimens of either mud or brine hanksites! I've longed for another > remedy that doesn't require such invasive techniques for preservation. > cheers, > tina tuttle Hi Tina, I enjoyed this detailed and informative post. A few more thoughts on the concept of preservation: 1. When we decide to "preserve" a mineral through mechanical means, we usually alter it forever. At that point of decision, you must reconcile whether you want to preserve the form, or the natural mineral. I have a type locality (meta?)autunite that was soaked in super glue; I knew this before I bought it, but since I am building a type locality reference collection, it was better than nothing until I can find an unaltered one. However, if someone wants to study it in 50 years, they won't be able to establish a baseline composition for the specimen or relate it in context to the literature published on that species since its description. 1.a. One might bring up the idea of fossil preservation and consolidation at this point, but that is like comparing apples and oranges; or at least, Red Delicious apples to green baking apples. The goals of fossil preservation are different, and usually more structural than chemical. 2. Keep in mind that we usually discuss passive methods on lists like this. There is always a way to control temperature, pressure, humidity, and chemical equilibrium so that the specimen remains in the exact geochemical environment in which it is stable. However, I think we might all agree that while this is theortically possible, it is wholly impractical for all but the most well-funded and scientifically motivated endeavor. So in this context, I suppose we are discussing methods that are in reach of the average person. I would glady take any chunks and scraps you find. If you can acquire some from both zones, that would be great. Enjoy the salt, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 11:52:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Teresa Otis) Date: Sun Aug 10 10:52:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cleaning Silver/Turquoise Jewelry References: <20030810.085948.-313905.0.stevenkaminski@juno.com> Message-ID: <3F368613.F36AD579@earthlink.net> Hi, Several years ago we acquired a squash blossom similiar set and spent some time talking with one of the old native american jewelry traders here in Northern Arizona, and these were 2 points I remember her telling us and, of course, signatures can be important also. I can't answer the particular question but I would like to share something with you that I learned a couple of years ago. If it should have decorative feathers (the little silver feather decoration between the beads etc), this would mean it was made after roughly 1962. Prior to that the feathers were not available to be used in this manner. This is one way of telling the age of the piece. If it is prior to 1962, this puts it into the 'pawn jewelry' category and greatly increases its value. Another way of telling is also by checking the silver pieces in it as to whether they were hammered or melted into shape or if its possible to tell if old silver coins were used in making of the silver beads, etc. Another method of telling age is in how it is tied together in the making and what was used for tying it together. Teresa Otis stevenkaminski@juno.com wrote: > > Hi List, > > My mother just inherited a silver and turquoise necklace. The silver is > the fine cylindrical beads (liquid silver) and "bugle" form (not > squash-blossom but similar) with turquoise stones. The silver is pretty > tarnished and she wants to restore it. Is this something she can do or > should it go to a jeweler. Any suggestions? > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 15:36:23 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mark) Date: Sun Aug 10 14:36:23 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] pseudogaylussit from Holland References: <002601c35f5f$bbea6b60$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Message-ID: <005101c35f87$33f788f0$9700000a@pc1> Hi all, Today (right after Franks message came in :-) I drove off to De Goorn, I did find some crystals. Always a special experience to go rockhounding in your own country if you are Dutch... even though I spotted several cows. The crystals are very fragile, a bit like weakly cemented calcite sand. Wat would be the best way to conserve these crystals? Half of them are still embedded in moist clay. greetings, Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank de wit" To: "rockhounds" Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 18:52 Subject: [Rockhounds] pseudogaylussit from Holland > Hi Rockhounders ! > > Sometimes (very sometimes ;-) Holland is a little more than tulips&windmills > You might even find 'minerals' there... 'pseudogaylussit' in this case > > see pics on: http://www.strahlen.org/vp/bobeldijk/ > ps: no cows, wooden shoes etc on the pics > > Cheers! > Frank > http://www.strahlen.org/ > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 15:45:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mark) Date: Sun Aug 10 14:45:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings References: <1e4.eb2fcbe.2c672469@aol.com> Message-ID: <005901c35f88$8dc90ba0$9700000a@pc1> Thanks for your offer! I will email you off list. On the site of the Searles Lake Gem and Mineral Society I read that the hanksite crystals do come from a depth of 30-45 feet. I also saw pictures of stunning hanksite clusters... maybe you all know the website already but here it is: http://www1.iwvisp.com/tronagemclub/geology.htm Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 06:30 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] hanksite coatings > > > I think it's likely that hanksite is not a stable compound in contact with > > water under atmospheric conditions. > > When I went to Searles Lake there were some Geo-something-or-other students > sorting through crystals next to me. They stated that dissolved Hanksite will > not recrystallize at standard pressure. They claimed that it had formed at > some depth in the drying or dry lake. > > Mark, > Email me with your address and I'll mail you a couple little ones. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 16:27:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Aug 10 15:27:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Kris, OK, sorry for the delay, had to take a break from all the of the must do items and dig out a map. The road from Freezeout to the east is #301, you want to get on #457. From Freezeout, it is about 9 miles to where #457 turns off to the south, 301 at that junction turns north to Rocky Run. From the junction, it is about two miles south to a left fork to Moses Butte, but keep going south. It's about another 3 1/2 miles southerly to where there is a road that goes sharp back to the ritht that will take you down to My Blue Heaven (bright blue private cabin open and available to all), down to the the giant cedars on Land Board State Park and down to the Floodwood area. The first couple miles are in the woods as you drive around the west side of Goat Mtn. About the time you turn easterly, the road breaks out of the woods and will be mostly in the open (grassy mountain side, some trees) along Blackdome Peak. It is this last stretch where most of the big kyanite occurs (OK so they are actually more on Balckdome than Goat Mtn.). Just east of where the road breaks out of the trees there are a lot of 1 - 1 1/2 inch granular garnets in the road, sometimes in piles where the water has dumped them in the erosion channels. From here down to the intersection to My Blue Heaven there are garnets of various quality (some sharp, most granular) and kyanite in the road. The few outcrops, especially the large ones in the grassy area to the east have kyanite to several inches, the largest I saw was probably 8 inches, the largest I recovered was 6. But as stated earlier, they are dominantly white with hints of blue, green and pink. Loads of fun, will probably be back up there next year looking at them again. I haven't done much hiking yet up onto the ridges where there are lots of outcrops (most of Blackdome is bare rock). There are many other garnet areas in this region, and some corundum down on Trail Creek, but I'm not really familiar with the garnet areas in that area. There are deposits that have been claimed (National Forest land) or leased (Idaho State land) off and on for gem garnet production. One warning, there is a killer mud hole between the junction with 301 and the road to Moses Butte. Even in hot dry weather it is probably a good size lake. Actually it's not really so much a mud hole (appears to have a bottom) as just a large, deep puddle in the road. People attempting to drive around it have expanded it to about a thousand acres... Last year in my truck I kept to the west side on the bank which wasn't wide enough for my truck width so the inside wheels fell off and into the brink, but it wasn't a problem (4-wheel drive forever!). My friend behind me had a smaller truck and managed to stay on the bank. No cell phones up there, so you can't call for the Coast Guard if you fall in. Regards, Lanny On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 12:52 PM, Kris Murray wrote: > hey thanks Lanny! I liked the blue i found up on Moses Butte, I assume > Goat MT is in the same area?whoops - I think it comes up shoshone > county on google although with not much details. If you had a small > detail or three that would be great. > Thanks a helluva lot in advance > Kris M > On Friday, August 8, 2003, at 08:49 AM, Lanny wrote: > >> As to the Freezeout kyanite, it may be small, but much of it is a lot >> darker blue than most of the kyanite on the Clearwater divide area. >> If size is what matters to you, try the kyanite on the west side of >> Goat Mtn, alongside the road. It is commonly 2 inches or better and >> an inch or so across and thick. Crystals can be picked up in the >> road. If you look at the few outcrops, you will see crystals to 6 >> inches or more. The color varies from nearly colorless to very pale >> bluish, greenish or pinkish. > Any great truth can -- and eventually will -- be expressed as a cliche > -- a cliche is a sure and certain way to dilute an idea. For > instance, my grandmother used to say, "The black cat is always the > last one off the fence." I have no idea what she meant, but at one > time, it was undoubtedly true. > -- Solomon Short > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 17:40:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodo Bahia Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030810133340.02344df0@mail.aloha.net> Hi List, Does anyone know anything about Lodo Bahia crystals? I found some at a little "metaphysical crystal" shop in Hawi here on the Big Island. They are about 5 x 3 x 3 cm., water-clear, with greenish or brownish inclusions that look like moss or fungi. They look to me as if they were cut, but the salesperson swore they were natural shape and were just polished. She said they are from Brazil and are called Lodo Bahia, and she called the inclusions phantoms. Since they are very pretty and cost only $18 each, I went ahead and bought them. When I got home I lsearched the Internet and found only one place that said they had them, but they weren't shown or mentioned when I went to the site. So I sent an e-mail and got the following answer: We do have Lodo Bahia but we don't offer them to the public anymore because of their cost.......we sell them by the pound to a shop in Chicago for $135.00 per pound...............however at this time we have two if you are interested in a purchase......the first is 4.5 X 2.5 X 2 inches and weighs 1 pound 5 oz. this would regularly sell for 175.00 but since this is our last large one....you can take it for 119.00........ the second one is smaller 3.25 X 1 X 1 inch and weighs 4 ounces.......you can take this one for 40.00....... Loda Bahias are crystals mined in the southernmost part of Brazil and all contain a greenish moss-like inclusion and appear to be phantom crystal but technically are not.........all Lodos are cut to six points (usually 2 small cuts and 4 large cuts) on top and highly polished......the large ones are called Lodo Bahia Crystal Generators and are said to contain healing powers. Anybody have any better info? Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 18:29:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 10 17:29:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodo Bahia Message-ID: <186.1dbb07e8.2c683d15@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/03 4:40:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kahako@aloha.net writes: > > > Does anyone know anything about Lodo Bahia crystals? I found some at a > little "metaphysical crystal" shop in Hawi here on the Big Island. They > are about 5 x 3 x 3 cm., water-clear, with greenish or brownish inclusions > that look like moss or fungi. They look to me as if they were cut, but the > salesperson There is a photo at http://www.angelfire.com/ia/alikatzgeodes/images/cx03.gif Nothing new to add but it is a nice picture. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 18:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Michael Schmidt) Date: Sun Aug 10 17:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodo Bahia References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030810133340.02344df0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> simple quartz with some type of possibly chlorite inclusion.........another clever marketing scheme by the New Age people....stuff that used to be worth a few dollars is not worth a fortune, because it's been given a pretty name.... :-) some of these crystals are polished....some are rough. Chances are, if the crystal is natural, you should see some type of striation on it.....or some surface feature. if it's polished glass smooth, it's been polished. I was in some metaphysical store the other day, and I noticed they were selling massive magnetite (lodestone). This is the stuff they always stick iron filings onto to show the magnetism......it was available in 2 colours....grey and apple green!!! When I tried to politely explain to the shopkeeper that the green colour was paint, she would not believe me. She went on and on about how her supplier had told her the colour was natural (you could pick it off and see the natural grey colour underneath!!!), and she just wouldn't believe the evidence in front of her. She also wouldn't believe that what she called the "crystals" were just iron filings put on there....... unbelieveable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 5:57 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodo Bahia > Hi List, > > Does anyone know anything about Lodo Bahia crystals? I found some at a > little "metaphysical crystal" shop in Hawi here on the Big Island. They > are about 5 x 3 x 3 cm., water-clear, with greenish or brownish inclusions > that look like moss or fungi. They look to me as if they were cut, but the > salesperson swore they were natural shape and were just polished. She said > they are from Brazil and are called Lodo Bahia, and she called the > inclusions phantoms. Since they are very pretty and cost only $18 each, I > went ahead and bought them. When I got home I lsearched the Internet and > found only one place that said they had them, but they weren't shown or > mentioned when I went to the site. So I sent an e-mail and got the > following answer: > > We do have Lodo Bahia but we don't offer them to the public > anymore because of their cost.......we sell them by the pound to a shop in > Chicago for $135.00 per pound...............however at this time we have two > if you are interested in a purchase......the first is 4.5 X 2.5 X 2 inches and > weighs 1 pound 5 oz. this would regularly sell for 175.00 but since this is > our last large one....you can take it for 119.00........ the second one is > smaller 3.25 X 1 X 1 inch and weighs 4 ounces.......you can take this one > for 40.00....... > Loda Bahias are crystals mined in the southernmost part of Brazil and all > contain a greenish moss-like inclusion and appear to be phantom crystal but > technically are not.........all Lodos are cut to six points (usually 2 small > cuts and 4 large cuts) on top and highly polished......the large ones are > called Lodo Bahia Crystal Generators and are said to contain healing powers. > > Anybody have any better info? > > Aloha, Kitty > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 18:49:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 10 17:49:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodo Bahia Message-ID: <185.1ef32eeb.2c6841d5@aol.com> Bourget brothers has them here in Los Angeles. They're ~$25 and around 5x3x3 cm. They are faceted, without natural faces. We (I work there) used to have pendants made out of them too. Little water clear droplets with green and brown inclusions. They had been polished to a smooth surface I've never been able to accomplish. Those were just $3 and sold fast. Some had the moss, some had chlorite phantoms, some had both. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 21:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Sun Aug 10 20:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C6D88D6-CBAA-11D7-A933-000393B396CA@mac.com> thanks for the well verbalized reply and the warning on the pit! I have been telling my better half about moses butte for years, i took her to freezeout for garnets and promised i would take her to other places and this seems really kind. Again, thanks for taking the time to explain all of this KM On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Lanny wrote: > OK, sorry for the delay, had to take a break from all the of the must > do items and dig out a map. There is nothing except what you sense From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 21:39:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sun Aug 10 20:39:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite References: <9C6D88D6-CBAA-11D7-A933-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <001301c35fa9$11799bc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Kris, Let me know when you're going. I'm only about an hour away and I'll meet ya there! Thanks Lanny for the specifics. John Santa, Idaho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris W. Murray" > thanks for the well verbalized reply and the warning on the pit! I have > been telling my better half about moses butte for years, i took her to > freezeout for garnets and promised i would take her to other places and > this seems really kind. Again, thanks for taking the time to explain > all of this > KM > On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 03:26 PM, Lanny wrote: From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 10 22:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Sun Aug 10 21:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Staurolite & Kyanite In-Reply-To: <001301c35fa9$11799bc0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: I will. It'll be before the snow falls, if I have my way. Nah, I get to=20= go because Jenn gets to go for blue cheese elk tenderloins at the chief=20= in cascade. Dont know when precisely but may have 5-9 days in sept KM On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 06:36 PM, John Siebel wrote: > Let me know when you're going. I'm only about an hour away and I'll=20 > meet ya > there! Never let a day pass that you will have cause to say, 'I will do better=20= tomorrow.' =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0--- Brigham Young --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 11 13:12:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Cliff Jackson) Date: Mon Aug 11 12:12:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Id help Message-ID: <00b701c3603c$597044e0$5769fea9@Jackson> Dear list: Was out rockhounding and found something I have not ID. Location was RT 266 in Nevada. This is between Lida, NV and Oasis, CA. = Mine dumps in the area were blue/green in color. Hardness approx 7.0 , = Color gray, Fractures-on a plane, Surrounding rock granite. Will have = photos available as soon as batteries are charged. Thanks for any help. Cliff --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 11 20:48:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Mon Aug 11 19:48:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] New to list References: <20030728134530.82250.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> <003201c35510$1078dd60$fbaf5a0c@fekib> Message-ID: <3F3856C7.12AA@rcn.com> Check with the Poland Mining Camp Poland, Maine Irving "Dudy" & Marie Groves GMO ________ OLawrence Rush wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Mulvey To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] New to list > Hi All! > I've been collecting minerals since I was about 6 years old (I'm > 42 now). We have just recently moved to Nashua, NH. I am looking > forward to joining the Nashua Mineral Society. I've been looking > on the Internet for good collecting locations and have found > some but they are all questionable in the age of the messages > I've culled from different archives. > > Does anyone know if collecting is still permitted at Beryl > Moutain in South Acworth, NH or at the Westmoreland Mine in > Grafton, NH? Also, I am trying to find more infor about the > Palermo Mine n the same area. > > Lastly, well, at least for now! 8-) Does anyone on this list > participate in swaps - some of my local (New England) minerals > for samples of your local (say, Mid western US) stuff? > > I've always enjoyed the cubic crystals of galena and pyrite. I > have a few pieces of rutilated quartz that I think are very > cool. My collection is fairly large and is probably populated by > > 95% purchased items. I really want to start focusing more on > > catching my own! > > > > On digest for now, looking forward to hearing what you all have > > to say! > > > > Best Regards, > > Joe > > > > > > > > ===== > Joe: Be sure and get to the Gilsum Rock Swap in June of each year. About 50 > dealers and 8 or so swappers attend, along with several thousands walk-ins. > A really good time. > > (Maybe you already do this; in that case...........sorry!) > > Larry Rush > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 11 22:54:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John McLaughlin) Date: Mon Aug 11 21:54:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lodo Bahia In-Reply-To: <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030810133340.02344df0@mail.aloha.net> <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> Message-ID: <3F3872A6.90103@amug.org> If she accepted your assessment it would mean that her supplier lied to her and seriously got into her pocket. And that she was purveying very inexpensive stuff at a silly price. Selling painted rocks as authentic requires real chutzpah. John McLaughlin Glendale, Arizona where it cooled off to 111 degrees today from 116 (47C) yesterday. Almost as hot as London! Michael Schmidt wrote: >simple quartz with some type of possibly chlorite inclusion.........another >clever marketing scheme by the New Age people....stuff that used to be worth >a few dollars is not worth a fortune, because it's been given a pretty >name.... :-) > >some of these crystals are polished....some are rough. Chances are, if the >crystal is natural, you should see some type of striation on it.....or some >surface feature. if it's polished glass smooth, it's been polished. > >I was in some metaphysical store the other day, and I noticed they were >selling massive magnetite (lodestone). This is the stuff they always stick >iron filings onto to show the magnetism......it was available in 2 >colours....grey and apple green!!! When I tried to politely explain to the >shopkeeper that the green colour was paint, she would not believe me. She >went on and on about how her supplier had told her the colour was natural >(you could pick it off and see the natural grey colour underneath!!!), and >she just wouldn't believe the evidence in front of her. She also wouldn't >believe that what she called the "crystals" were just iron filings put on >there....... > >unbelieveable. > > > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 11 23:06:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Mon Aug 11 22:06:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <937001FA-CC82-11D7-A612-000393B396CA@mac.com> I went to the diatom pits for my first time ever this july. i am not=20 sure which pit was new or old, but the closest had machinery. which one=20= is newest? I got a few 100+ pounders and six 20lb pieces. When you take=20= the left off the pavement and then you get to a 'tower' i took a left=20 and then maybe a few hundred yards past on the left was a pit. I=20 cautiously parked cuz i didn't know how mushy the stuff was and walked=20= back towards the tower where a gradient went down deeper and along that=20= gradient was where i got the one i could only leverage not lift into=20 the car. I guess I am curious to know if I am in the right area or if=20 there are larger chunks elsewhere? the stuff I got was sure pretty. all=20= sorts of reds spots, grains like wood, all kinda like opal but heavy=20 although too 'vitreous' to be agate?? i do not know if i am using the=20 correct terminology. anyway any help would be appreciated thanks in advance kris murray On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 08:23 PM, Brian Doll wrote: > I havnt been there in almost two years, so this may not be news to=20 > you, but all the old collecting areas at the pits are now reclaimed=20 > and buried. But heres the good news: There is a new, huge pit opened=20= > up, and there is soo much material to collect that it is overwhelming!=20= > Ron - if you are out there, there are 1000 pound+ pieces laying=20 > everywhere - in easy locations to pick up! I think that this pit it=20 > better than all the other ones combined! Cant wait to get back there -=20= > (with a big truck!). Gotta go for now - happy hounding! Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0--- Winston Churchill --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 01:16:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Aug 12 00:16:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <3F3872A6.90103@amug.org> References: <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> <5.1.0.14.0.20030810133340.02344df0@mail.aloha.net> <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030811212103.02013390@mail.aloha.net> >John McLaughlin >Glendale, Arizona where it cooled off to 111 degrees today from 116 (47C) >yesterday. Almost as hot as London! We heard on the news that in England so many people are heading to the pubs because of the heat that there is a serious shortage of beer! Now that is serious!! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 04:58:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Aug 12 03:58:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> <5.1.0.14.0.20030810133340.02344df0@mail.aloha.net> <02f301c35fa1$813f79a0$f5cd94d1@remains> <5.1.0.14.0.20030811212103.02013390@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <001e01c360c0$82c45c80$87ab77d5@pandora.be> Belgium is sweating too... As good as no rain (one small cloud rained about 30 seconds over Antwerp last week)... not even a thunderstorm. It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen anything like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 years ago. cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? >John McLaughlin >Glendale, Arizona where it cooled off to 111 degrees today from 116 (47C) >yesterday. Almost as hot as London! We heard on the news that in England so many people are heading to the pubs because of the heat that there is a serious shortage of beer! Now that is serious!! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 06:33:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 12 05:33:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update In-Reply-To: <937001FA-CC82-11D7-A612-000393B396CA@mac.com> References: Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812052421.01cdeb78@mail.spiritone.com> It's a massive opal seam, Kris. I was near but didn't venture into the pits last week as it was 95 degrees every day (DMB at the Gorge :) and Saddle Mtn wood). It seems to run about the same level in all the pits, so it doesn't really matter which one is opened up. I have never brought back a monster and the smaller pieces do tend to show a lot of soft spots and pitting; thus the reason it's still there in such amazing quantities. On another note I managed to make it to the Ginko Petrified Forest at Vantage but where is Stonerose Museum? I have heard they allow you to collect a few leaf imprints at the museum. The interpretative center at the forest has some of the best slices of petrified wood I have ever sen from the local area... At 10:05 PM 8/11/2003, you wrote: I went to the diatom pits for my first time ever this july. i am not sure which pit was new or old, but the closest had machinery. which one is newest? I got a few 100+ pounders and six 20lb pieces. When you take the left off the pavement and then you get to a 'tower' i took a left and then maybe a few hundred yards past on the left was a pit. I cautiously parked cuz i didn't know how mushy the stuff was and walked back towards the tower where a gradient went down deeper and along that gradient was where i got the one i could only leverage not lift into the car. I guess I am curious to know if I am in the right area or if there are larger chunks elsewhere? the stuff I got was sure pretty. all sorts of reds spots, grains like wood, all kinda like opal but heavy although too 'vitreous' to be agate?? i do not know if i am using the correct terminology. anyway any help would be appreciated thanks in advance kris murray On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 08:23 PM, Brian Doll wrote: I havnt been there in almost two years, so this may not be news to you, but all the old collecting areas at the pits are now reclaimed and buried. But heres the good news: There is a new, huge pit opened up, and there is soo much material to collect that it is overwhelming! Ron - if you are out there, there are 1000 pound+ pieces laying everywhere - in easy locations to pick up! I think that this pit it better than all the other ones combined! Cant wait to get back there - (with a big truck!). Gotta go for now - happy hounding!Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. --- Winston Churchill Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 09:15:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Aug 12 08:15:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eye Agate Message-ID: <47.319c262d.2c6a5e4a@aol.com> In a message dated 8/8/2003 2:05:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, BETDAV97@aol.com writes: > I seem to be making a pest of myself today, but does anyone > on the list know of a source for eye agate? This is an agate that > looks like an eyeball. Never seen any myself, but I have had a > few requests for it. See the article on Eye Agates at Conklin's web site: www.lhconklin.com They are VERY hard to find and VERY expensive. John Betts http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 10:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Tue Aug 12 09:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <001e01c360c0$82c45c80$87ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? KM On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen > anything > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 > years > ago. There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true. -- Neils Bohr --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 10:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Christian Auer) Date: Tue Aug 12 09:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <001101c360f1$6545bd80$409bda3e@Auerchri> Hi, Its the warmest summer we ever had since weather is docomented (300 years!). Tomorrow will be the warmest day with 40°C -and in this area now for two months. I bet on friday when I`m planning to go gold collecting on a high mountain it will rain :-) Chris Auer ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: http://www.wulfenite.com for the wulfenite enthusiast http://www.minerlamps.com for the mining lamp collector ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris W. Murray" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the > globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be > expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? > KM > On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen > > anything > > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 > > years > > ago. > There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a > trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also > true. -- Neils Bohr > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 12:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Tue Aug 12 11:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] U.P. trip report Message-ID: <001801c36100$66e3b840$345204d0@jim> We got back from our trip to the Keweenaw peninsula (Michigan) Saturday = night. The trip up to the Upper Peninsula was eventful. We blew a tire on the = trailer just north of Milwaukee, got the spare on, but then stopped at = every tire & RV dealer betwee there and Iron Mountain, MI before we = found a replacement tire. Near Green Bay, WI we ran into a severe = thunderstorm, and had to pull off because I couldn't see the road. When = the storm let up, we discovered that the wind had opened the roof vents, = so we had a wet bed. We stopped for the night at the Peshtigo River = Campground, near Crivitz, WI. They had a laundry, so we were able to dry = out our bedding. The next day we proceeded to Marquette, MI, and stayed 3 nights at the = Marquette Tourist Park. I attended the Ishpeming club's show, and one of = the field trips they ran in conjunction with the show. This was to the = Republic Mine, an old iron mine. Most of what I got was specular = Hematite and Magnetite. >From Marquette, we went on to Lake Linden, MI. While there, I went on 9 = field trips as part of Keweenaw Week. I visited the Humboldt, Delaware, = Knowlton, Central, Cliff, Caledonia, LaSalle, Seneca & Iriquois mines. A more detailed report, with pictures, will be posted on = www.sauktown.com as soon as I have all the pictures. My digital camera = died the first time I tried to use it on this trip, but Al Smith and Dan = Behnke graciously offered to send pictures of the events I missed = photographing before I could buy another camera. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales Microminerals and mounting supplies http://www.sauktown.com sauktown@adsnet.com or orders@sauktown.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 12:44:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 12 11:44:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <000e01c36101$a2d53850$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> On the lighter side, global warming has been occurring over the last 15,000-20,000 years, unless you count the "Little Ice Age". The Northeastern US has been experiencing a relativel chilly summer this year. Wish I didn't live in the middle of a mineralogical desert. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris W. Murray" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the > globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be > expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? > KM > On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen > > anything > > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 > > years > > ago. > There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a > trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also > true. -- Neils Bohr > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 13:19:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Cornish) Date: Tue Aug 12 12:19:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812052421.01cdeb78@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <002301c36106$f0cfbcb0$cc84a141@rockman> Hi Tim, Not Vantage, Republic, Washington. See... http://www.stonerosefossil.org/whereis.htm John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Fisher" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update > > > It's a massive opal seam, Kris. I was near but didn't > venture into the pits last week as it was 95 degrees every day (DMB at > the Gorge :) and Saddle Mtn wood). It seems to run about the same level > in all the pits, so it doesn't really matter which one is opened up. I > have never brought back a monster and the smaller pieces do tend to show > a lot of soft spots and pitting; thus the reason it's still there in such > amazing quantities. On another note I managed to make it to the Ginko > Petrified Forest at Vantage but where is Stonerose Museum? I have heard > they allow you to collect a few leaf imprints at the museum. The > interpretative center at the forest has some of the best slices of > petrified wood I have ever sen from the local area... > > > At 10:05 PM 8/11/2003, you wrote: > > I went to the diatom pits for my > first time ever this july. i am not sure which pit was new or old, but > the closest had machinery. which one is newest? I got a few 100+ pounders > and six 20lb pieces. When you take the left off the pavement and then you > get to a 'tower' i took a left and then maybe a few hundred yards past on > the left was a pit. I cautiously parked cuz i didn't know how mushy the > stuff was and walked back towards the tower where a gradient went down > deeper and along that gradient was where i got the one i could only > leverage not lift into the car. I guess I am curious to know if I am in > the right area or if there are larger chunks elsewhere? the stuff I got > was sure pretty. all sorts of reds spots, grains like wood, all kinda > like opal but heavy although too 'vitreous' to be agate?? i do not know > if i am using the correct terminology. anyway any help would be > appreciated > > thanks in advance > > kris murray > > On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 08:23 PM, Brian Doll wrote: > > > I havnt been there in almost two > years, so this may not be news to you, but all the old collecting areas > at the pits are now reclaimed and buried. But heres the good news: There > is a new, huge pit opened up, and there is soo much material to collect > that it is overwhelming! Ron - if you are out there, there are 1000 > pound+ pieces laying everywhere - in easy locations to pick up! I think > that this pit it better than all the other ones combined! Cant wait to > get back there - (with a big truck!). Gotta go for now - happy > hounding!Kites rise highest against the wind, not with > it. > > --- Winston > Churchill > > Tim Fisher > > Ore-ROCK-On! > > mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com > > Web Site: > http://OreRockOn.com > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > text/html (html body -- converted) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 13:53:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Aug 12 12:53:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> Since ice is a mineral, we're on topic. I'm not a "pro" but if what National Geographic is feeding us is true (and I'm educated enough to believe most of what recent studies claim) it is PAST time to rethink the way we use up earth's rescources. IOW: yes, there are warmer "interglacial periods" to be expected between ice ages BUT this hot climat is killing people daily. We are way beyond normal temps and have been for years. I could go deeper in to this but it would lead us off topic too far and into the realm of heated political discussiion... Therefore: keep cool everybody Cheers from a sizzling Belgium Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris W. Murray" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the > globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be > expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? > KM > On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen > > anything > > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 > > years > > ago. > There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a > trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also > true. -- Neils Bohr > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 15:16:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 12 14:16:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812140507.01cfa090@mail.spiritone.com> I follow this topic since I have done some climate modeling of the potential effects of global warming (whether human caused or not) on salmon here in the northwest US. While I agree that the earth is warming since the last Ice Age and will probably continue to do so until whatever conditions cause an Ice Age are present again, the rate of increase in mean global temperature has been much faster than in previous warming episodes. The only rational explanation for this is the burning of fossil fuels. That said, I am not convinced that the anomalous weather patterns of the past few years are anything more than just that, an anomaly. Trends take years to develop and more years to detect; we can never know the cause until well after the fact. Someone brought up the Little Ice Age which is an excellent example of a continent-wide short-term anomalous weather pattern that was detectable even with the instruments we had at the time (mid 1800s as I recall). It will take many years of warmer-than-average temperatures world-wide to inch the global mean temperature up another 10th of a degree; usually the unusually warm weather is offset by unusually cool weather somewhere else (i.e. the summer of no summer the NE US is experiencing right now). P.S. We also had record temperatures in June and a record hot spell in July here in Oregon; I bet nobody would ever have predicted temperatures of 101 degrees in Cannon Beach on June 5 (I was there). An all-time record high...was nice sipping wine with my feet in the surf pretending I was in Hawaii...if I ignored the 60 degree ocean water lol :) At 12:52 PM 8/12/2003, you wrote: Since ice is a mineral, we're on topic. I'm not a {quot}pro{quot} but if what National Geographic is feeding us is true (and I'm educated enough to believe most of what recent studies claim) it is PAST time to rethink the way we use up earth's rescources. IOW: yes, there are warmer {quot}interglacial periods{quot} to be expected between ice ages BUT this hot climat is killing people daily. We are way beyond normal temps and have been for years. I could go deeper in to this but it would lead us off topic too far and into the realm of heated political discussiion... Therefore: keep cool everybody Cheers from a sizzling Belgium Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: {quot}Kris W. Murray{quot} To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the > globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be > expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? > KM > On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen > > anything > > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 > > years > > ago. > There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a > trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also > true. -- Neils Bohr > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 15:17:04 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 12 14:17:04 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Stonerose In-Reply-To: <002301c36106$f0cfbcb0$cc84a141@rockman> References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812052421.01cdeb78@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812141524.01cfb150@mail.spiritone.com> Thanks John, luckily I didn't waste any time looking for it :) At 12:21 PM 8/12/2003, you wrote: Hi Tim, Not Vantage, Republic, Washington. See... http://www.stonerosefossil.org/whereis.htm John ----- Original Message ----- From: {quot}Tim Fisher{quot} To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 5:32 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update > > > It's a massive opal seam, Kris. I was near but didn't > venture into the pits last week as it was 95 degrees every day (DMB at > the Gorge :) and Saddle Mtn wood). It seems to run about the same level > in all the pits, so it doesn't really matter which one is opened up. I > have never brought back a monster and the smaller pieces do tend to show > a lot of soft spots and pitting; thus the reason it's still there in such > amazing quantities. On another note I managed to make it to the Ginko > Petrified Forest at Vantage but where is Stonerose Museum? I have heard > they allow you to collect a few leaf imprints at the museum. The > interpretative center at the forest has some of the best slices of > petrified wood I have ever sen from the local area... > > > At 10:05 PM 8/11/2003, you wrote: > > I went to the diatom pits for my > first time ever this july. i am not sure which pit was new or old, but > the closest had machinery. which one is newest? I got a few 100+ pounders > and six 20lb pieces. When you take the left off the pavement and then you > get to a 'tower' i took a left and then maybe a few hundred yards past on > the left was a pit. I cautiously parked cuz i didn't know how mushy the > stuff was and walked back towards the tower where a gradient went down > deeper and along that gradient was where i got the one i could only > leverage not lift into the car. I guess I am curious to know if I am in > the right area or if there are larger chunks elsewhere? the stuff I got > was sure pretty. all sorts of reds spots, grains like wood, all kinda > like opal but heavy although too 'vitreous' to be agate?? i do not know > if i am using the correct terminology. anyway any help would be > appreciated > > thanks in advance > > kris murray > > On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 08:23 PM, Brian Doll wrote: > > > I havnt been there in almost two > years, so this may not be news to you, but all the old collecting areas > at the pits are now reclaimed and buried. But heres the good news: There > is a new, huge pit opened up, and there is soo much material to collect > that it is overwhelming! Ron - if you are out there, there are 1000 > pound+ pieces laying everywhere - in easy locations to pick up! I think > that this pit it better than all the other ones combined! Cant wait to > get back there - (with a big truck!). Gotta go for now - happy > hounding!Kites rise highest against the wind, not with > it. > > --- Winston > Churchill > > Tim Fisher > > Ore-ROCK-On! > > mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com > > Web Site: > http://OreRockOn.com > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > text/html (html body -- converted) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 16:30:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Aug 12 15:30:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <6.0.0.14.2.20030812140507.01cfa090@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <003c01c36121$35d0d780$87ab77d5@pandora.be> > That said, I am not convinced that the anomalous weather patterns of the > past few years are anything more than just that, an anomaly. Trends take > years to develop and more years to detect; we can never know the cause > until well after the fact. Someone brought up the Little Ice Age which is > an excellent example of a continent-wide short-term anomalous weather > pattern that was detectable even with the instruments we had at the time > (mid 1800s as I recall). It will take many years of > warmer-than-average temperatures world-wide to inch the global mean > temperature up another 10th of a degree; usually the unusually warm > weather is offset by unusually cool weather somewhere else (i.e. the > summer of no summer the NE US is experiencing right now). That is exactly what oil and coal companies would like us to believe... not mentioning automobile industry and so on... Anomalies are caused by things like meteorite impacts or large volcanic eruptions like Mnt Pinatubo or Mnt St Helens. Our sun is also a source of variation... but tell me honestly: do you know a way to get all of us to a safe place if you are wrong and this really is the onset of a runaway greenhouse effect? I think that experimenting with the lives of 6 billion people is not something to take lightly and frankly, I find the way you phrase your doubts scary. If you were in a position where you could convince the people in charge that there 's nothing wrong with the weather breaking a few records every year for over TWO DECADES long I fear for my childrens lives. The term "continent-wide short-term anomalous weather pattern" is saying it all.... What is next? A "world-wide short-term anomalous weather pattern"? It 's 00:30 hrs and the outside temperature is still 33° C. Goodnight to you all ;-))) Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 18:19:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Aug 12 17:19:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812140507.01cfa090@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > > I follow this topic since I have done some climate modeling > of the potential effects of global warming (whether human caused or not) > on salmon here in the northwest US. While I agree that the earth is > warming since the last Ice Age and will probably continue to do so until > whatever conditions cause an Ice Age are present again, the rate of > increase in mean global temperature has been much faster than in previous > warming episodes. The only rational explanation for this is the burning > of fossil fuels. I disagree, there are plenty of other rational explanations, one being changes in Solar Activity. The fossil fuel theory does nothing to explain why average temperatures were distinctly higher a thousand years ago from 1000 to 1300 AD. Greenland supported farms during this period. The world then plunged into the mini-ice age which it has been in until about a hundred years ago. It is the recovery from that cool period that people are pointing at as global warming. But almost all of this 'warming' occurred from 1900 to 1950 and there may be an actual cooling trend going on now. Furthermore if you look farther back you can find periods where the CO2 level in the air was two or three times higher than it is now but these were NOT warm periods. So the correlation of [CO2] and global temperature doesn't hold up either. You need to add one very important fact into these calculations, there is a big-money industry going on based on global warming. There are many scientific grants awarded to study it and they would dry up unless the researchers found that global warming exists. If you want to catch the criminals just follow the money. Bryan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 18:21:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Aug 12 17:21:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <001101c360f1$6545bd80$409bda3e@Auerchri> Message-ID: The mini-ice age might have something to do with that don't you think? We just started warming up again a hundred years ago. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Hi, > Its the warmest summer we ever had since weather is docomented > (300 years!). > Tomorrow will be the warmest day with 40°C -and in this area now for two > months. > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 18:22:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Tue Aug 12 17:22:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <252FCF44-CD24-11D7-90EF-000393A96092@mac.com> i think the overall atmosphere is cooler but surface temps are up, on the average. the bummer would be raising water levels that may affect collection, but then again more heat means collecting of evaporites may be better. KM On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 12:52 PM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > IOW: yes, there are warmer "interglacial periods" to be expected > between ice > ages BUT this hot climat is killing people daily. We are way beyond > normal > temps and have been for years. I could go deeper in to this but it > would > lead us off topic too far and into the realm of heated politica In Heaven all the interesting people are missing. ~~Nietzche --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 18:30:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Tue Aug 12 17:30:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812052421.01cdeb78@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <388C6118-CD25-11D7-90EF-000393A96092@mac.com> dmb at the gorge?? KM On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 05:32 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: > (DMB at > the Gorge :) Men are not monogamous by nature From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 12 21:13:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Aug 12 20:13:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? Message-ID: <16d.2084a396.2c6b069b@aol.com> In a message dated 8/12/03 2:16:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Tim@orerockon.com writes: > . We also had record temperatures in June and a record hot spell in > July here in Oregon; Two or three years back my wife and I were at her ranch in Fort Klamath and decided to go on up to Richardson Ranch and the John Day Fossil beds. One afternoon we stopped in Fossil and went out behind the High School to look for leaf imprints. It was so hot we just scooped up some rock and left. At the Fairgrounds RV area we plugged in and ran our AC. The Spokane radio station reported 108 degrees that day. I really wanted to spend time at Fossil High School looking for fossils but it just wasn't worth it. I live in CA where it is normally hot but when I go into the North West I expect cooler weather. The irony is we burned a lot of gas getting to a site then discovered it was so hot we couldn't work outside. Grant Chico, CA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 06:48:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Aug 13 05:48:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fwd: Hi/Rock Query Message-ID: <6.0.0.9.2.20030805045039.01bca7a0@mail.spiritone.com> Here is some rough I was offered. I know nothing more about it than what you see here. Contact Linda for more information. >Hi Tim: >We belonged to the Rock Rollers club, and did a ton of field trips in >WA-ID-MT-OR-UT-NV-WI-MN-ND-BC for rockhounding. (Incidentally, your fish >fossil pix are GREAT!!) Dad, as an 8th gr. science and math teacher, was >driven pretty nuts by his students, and consequently, we did a lot of >rockhounding and trout fishing for stress reduction. As a bi-product of >this stuff, Dad collected literally tons of rocks, which made him pretty >much deliriously happy. Dad lived a long life, and died from lung cancer >on 9-11-01 (no kidding. What a double whammy day...). Mom had a stroke >in May 01 and was paralyzed. She lives in a nursing home in Spokane now, >and is doing the slow fade. I am the family member that has the duty of >clearing up and out their house and property, and it's been a pretty big >task. They built their home in 1946 and lived there all their adult lives >without moving. Plus they were packrats! Can you kind of see this picture? > >So, the long and the short of it is that I now have Dad's rock collection >to sell. I had it professionally appraised by Leon Agee of Deer Park, WA >in late July (about 2 wks ago). Leon is a life-long rockhound, and has >known Dad since he and Dad started out in the Rock Rollers in the very >early 1960's. Leon is also a career jewelry designer, and very rock >knowledgeable. There are 4 tons of rocks, he estimates. My husband, our >17 year old son Evan and I moved them all out of storage into the field >where we washed them off w/a garden hose. We loaded/counted 170 boxes of >rocks (wire gym baskets thru many apple box sized boxes), plus all the big >petrified wood that we didn't box up (it covers an area about 4-5' wide by >25+' long). Leon estimates there is about 2 tons of petrified wood, plus >2 tons of all the other misc. rocks. I am waiting to hear back from him >re: specific content, but I know there are WA/OR petrified wood, uncut >geodes, obsidian, agates (there's one just beautiful carnelian chunk), >tiger eye chunks, a few fossils, some mineral samples, and a bunch of >misc. rocks that Dad began to slab to reveal the rock content (he enjoyed >making cabochons for jewelry and rock coffee tables, wind chimes, >etc...lots of fun to create stuff). > >Tim, I'm looking for a buyer for Dad's rocks. I'm going to sell the house >in Spokane next summer, I hope, and I need to move the rocks on to their >next home. Leon said a fair price for the entire collection is $3K. I >want to sell it as a whole unit as I'm not interested in piecing it out by >bits and chunks---with all the stuff I have on my plate, that would really >over-crowd the side-rails I've already installed on it. I've been on the >internet tonite collecting addresses for rock clubs, and then I came upon >your site. You're the first person I've contacted about Dad's >rocks...would you be interested in buying the collection? Or know someone >who would be? It's all boxed except for the bigger petrified wood chunks, >and, as I mentioned, it's all in Spokane. > >If you are interested, or know someone who might be, I can be reached at >lafm_tmoe@msn.com or at 253-939-8673 in >Auburn. I'll be back in the school year on August 25th, and then life >will get REALLY interesting! I took a bunch of pictures of the rows of >rock boxes et all, and I'm getting them developed, so I could send some >pix by early next week if you were interested. > >Linda Fahlgren-Moe > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com WWW http://OreRockOn.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 06:48:26 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Catherine Gaber) Date: Wed Aug 13 05:48:26 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] corundum in duluth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <10A0E27A-C782-11D7-A305-000A27A8D0F0@his.com> Does anyone know if corundum crystals are found in or near duluth, mn? thanks, cathy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 06:48:30 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 13 05:48:30 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200308052035.h75KZ6T2018706@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Not trying to argumentative here but need to understand this myself... in referance to (OH) and H20 these are two entirely differant beasts arent they one having one valence and the other having a neutral valence... but needed to complete the xtal structure, or have I missed the point.. "William S. Cordua" said: > Hi John, > Hard questions! > > >Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness scale? > > Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or > scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can > scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. > Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is scratchable, > with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. > > > >Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? > > Yes. Ice is a perfectly good mineral, and is described in the Encyclopedia > of Minerals and Dana's. It's hardness is 1.5 on the Mohs' Scale, so you can > scratch it with your fingernail (2.5). Brrr. > > > >Does water play a role in effecting the hardness of a mineral? > > The properties of a compound is different from that of its individual > elements. Take water itself. Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. Combine > them at room temperature and pressure and you have a liquid different from > either gas. Plus you can breath oxygen, but you can't breath water, eh? > > Now let's consider a mineral like muscovite mica. The "water" is > well-bonded into the mineral's structure, showing up as (OH) in the > formula. This isn't the same as little blobs of liquid water in the > mineral. Muscovite's hardness reflects the structural arrangment and > properties of all its components. In gypsum, the water is more loosely > bonded (it comes off easily if you heat the mineral and shows up as a H20 > in the formula). Still, gypsum's hardness also reflects the structural > arrangment and properties of all its components. It is true that > water-bearing minerals are often soft, but some are hard. Topaz has (OH) in > it but comes in at 8 on the Mohs' scale. > > Water can, and often does, occur as true liquid inclusion in minerals. If > visible, these are called enhydros. These are impurities, and not a part of > the mineral's crystalline structure. They can functionally weaken a > specimen, causing it to break when one is attempting to polish it, but they > don't affect the "scratchability" or Mohs' hardness of the mineral itself. > Crumbling and cracking are different from scratching. > > Well, that was fun. Best wishes - Bill > > Dr. William S. Cordua > Professor of Geology/Mineralogy > University of Wisconsin - River Falls > 410 South Third Street > River Falls, WI 54022 > 715-425-3139 > william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu > "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > -- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 06:48:33 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dick Chiasson) Date: Wed Aug 13 05:48:33 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Used Zeiss POL Message-ID: <000801c35c84$ba18c5d0$af113e18@youry075k8faau> I have a used Zeiss Standard RA POlarizing microscope with Monocular POL = tube with Bertrand lens built in, Large Round rotatable POL stage,Pol = 2.5 10 40 X Objectives Analyzer and Polarizer. My price is $ 3000.0 I am in Boston --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 06:48:36 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kowalski, Ted - Washington, DC) Date: Wed Aug 13 05:48:36 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] silver solder Message-ID: James: I fear you are walking into difficult territory. First, as was pointed out in another response is the willfulness of solder. This can be counteracted by using less solder than is needed to avoid a lump of solder. Second, as was also pointed out, there may be substantial handwork afterwards to clean/polish the coin and solder joint. Which brings up a slightly different point, any silver dollar you solder will trash it's collectable value. Basically, the coin becomes roughly worth the silver content, and even that is disputable, because the solder joint will be considered contaminant. Third, modern silver dollars tend to be pure silver. Silver solder is not and is a different color. Instead of hiding small flaws, you might end up highlighting them. Offhand, it would be easier buying a new coin. If still determined solder the silver dollar, try http://www.riogrande.com/ Ted Fredericksburg, VA USA TKowalsk@email.usps.gov -----Original Message----- From: Lunarcowgirl [mailto:lunarcowgirl@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 11:00 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] silver solder Hi James, Silversmith here. The only issue you will run into with using solder on a coin is that solder doesnt flow perfectly. Yes, its said that solder will only flow where you put flux. This is true, but if you get too much its a huge clump. If you use too little.. you will still have a divit. There are compounds you can put on and around the area you want to solder to prevent the flow but solder for the most part is an uncontrollable aspect I have found. For the percentage of silver you want to solder wtih I dont know of any solder that would fit that need. Hard solder would, but its melting point is way too high for a coin. The coin will distort and perhaps even melt if the heat is uneven etc. Past that I dont know what to tell you. I have used solder to fill in pits in hard solder that I got once in a casting. But then I was able to grind and polish the entire piece. Once I removed the excess solder the piece was too blemished to let it go as is.. if that makes sense. Goodluck Jane --- Rollins wrote: > Can anyone tell me where I can get some low melting > point silver solder? I > would like to try to repair some knicks in a US > Silver dollar. I imagine a > 90% silver would work if it can be found. > Has anyone tried to repair a silver coin before? If > so, perhaps you might > offer some suggestions? > James A. Rollins > [mailto:willows@rose.net] > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds k __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 06:48:39 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 13 05:48:39 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Hello Folks, I thought I would like to respond to this question since I have spent a good part of my adult life engaged in global change research and education. Currently I also teach a graduate course on global change and hence, I must keep current with the literature. There is only heated political discussion when folks do not have the data to understand the issues. There is much more consensus among the international scientific community regarding global change and climate change in particular than the popular press would have us believe. Since the early 1990's the International Panel on Climate Change has served as a repository for climate change research and currently over 1000 scientists from over 85 countries are participating in the initiative. Check out the IPCC web site , perhaps the most reputable source for info in this topic. In 1995 the IPCC released its first report and issued a statement saying that current global warming was due to anthropogenic effects. Up until that time, few scientists wanted to stick their neck out so definitively. In 2001 the IPCC's Third Assessment Report was released and it updated the original findings. The full report, which runs approximately 800 pages, represents nearly three years of work by almost 400 authors (scientists) from around the world. The report went through extensive review by more than 400 governmental and non-governmental experts. The key conclusions include: The Earth's climate system has changed, globally and regionally, with some these changes being attributable to human activities *The Earth has warmed 0.6=B1 0.2 oC since 1860 with the last two decades being the warmest of the last century; *The increase in surface temperatures over the 20th Century for the Northern hemisphere is likely to be greater than that for any other century in the last 1000 years; *Precipitation patterns have changed with an increase in heavy precipitation events in some regions; *Sea level has risen 10-20 cm since 1900; most non-polar glaciers are retreating; and the extent and thickness of Arctic sea ice is decreasing in summer; *Human activities are increasing the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases that warm the atmosphere and, in some regions, sulfate aerosols that cool the atmosphere; and *Most of the observed warming of the last 50 years is attributable to human activities. Carbon dioxide, surface temperatures, precipitation and sea level are all projected to increase globally during the 21st Century because of human activities *All IPCC projections show that the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide will increase significantly during the next century in the absence of climate change policies; *Climate models project that the Earth will warm 1.4 to 5.8oC (2.5 to 10.8oF) between 1990 and 2100, with most land areas warming more than the global average; *Precipitation will increase globally, with increases and decreases locally, with an increase in heavy precipitation events over most land areas; *Sea level is projected to increase 8-88cm between 1990 and 2100; and *Models project an increase in extreme weather events, e.g., heatwaves, heavy precipitation events, floods, droughts, fires, pest outbreaks, mid-latitude continental summer soil moisture deficits, and increased tropical cyclone peak wind and precipitation intensities. When discussing such a misunderstood topic, it is good to have the data on hand. The implications speak for themselves. We are indeed in the midst of an interglacial period. However, we have tweaked the system due to our activities and instead of slowly heading back toward a glacial period, we are warming very quickly (comparatively speaking). From the last glacial maximum to 1900 the earth warmed approximately 5 degrees Celsius in a little more than 10,000 years. The current scientific consensus is that we will warm close to half that or more in only 100 years. >Since ice is a mineral, we're on topic. >I'm not a "pro" but if what National Geographic is feeding us is true (an >I'm educated enough to believe most of what recent studies claim) it is PAS= T >time to rethink the way we use up earth's rescources. >IOW: yes, there are warmer "interglacial periods" to be expected between ic= e >ages BUT this hot climat is killing people daily. We are way beyond normal >temps and have been for years. I could go deeper in to this but it would >lead us off topic too far and into the realm of heated political >discussiion... > >Therefore: keep cool everybody > >Cheers from a sizzling Belgium > >Axel Emmermann >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 >E-mail: >axel.emmermann@pandora.be >Visit our homepage: >http://www.minerant.org/index.html >Bezoek onze web-site: >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html >My own web-site: >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kris W. Murray" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:32 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > >> excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the >> globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be >> expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? >> KM >> On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: >> >> > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen >> > anything >> > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 >> > years >> > ago. >> There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a >> trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also >> true. -- Neils Bohr >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/enriched >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds -- **************************************************** Gail Scowcroft Office: 401-874-6724 Associate Director FAX: 401-874-6486 Marine Programs University of Rhode Island South Ferry Rd. Narragansett, RI 02882 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 07:48:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Aug 13 06:48:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> Thanks for making sense... I recently learned that rocks and mountains can absorb CO2... Do you know how they do that? Also Bryan wrote: "if you look farther back you can find periods where the CO2 level in the air was two or three times higher than it is now but these were NOT warm periods" Is this true? I thought the CO2 levels were never higher than today (saw that in a documentary about constant measurements on Hawaii that are so sensitive you can even see the fluctuations caused by seasonal effects) Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? Hello Folks, I thought I would like to respond to this question since I have spent a good part of my adult life engaged in global change research and education. Currently I also teach a graduate course on global change and hence, I must keep current with the literature. There is only heated political discussion when folks do not have the data to understand the issues. There is much more consensus among the international scientific community regarding global change and climate change in particular than the popular press would have us believe. Since the early 1990's the International Panel on Climate Change has served as a repository for climate change research and currently over 1000 scientists from over 85 countries are participating in the initiative. Check out the IPCC web site , perhaps the most reputable source for info in this topic. In 1995 the IPCC released its first report and issued a statement saying that current global warming was due to anthropogenic effects. Up until that time, few scientists wanted to stick their neck out so definitively. In 2001 the IPCC's Third Assessment Report was released and it updated the original findings. The full report, which runs approximately 800 pages, represents nearly three years of work by almost 400 authors (scientists) from around the world. The report went through extensive review by more than 400 governmental and non-governmental experts. The key conclusions include: The Earth's climate system has changed, globally and regionally, with some these changes being attributable to human activities *The Earth has warmed 0.6± 0.2 oC since 1860 with the last two decades being the warmest of the last century; *The increase in surface temperatures over the 20th Century for the Northern hemisphere is likely to be greater than that for any other century in the last 1000 years; *Precipitation patterns have changed with an increase in heavy precipitation events in some regions; *Sea level has risen 10-20 cm since 1900; most non-polar glaciers are retreating; and the extent and thickness of Arctic sea ice is decreasing in summer; *Human activities are increasing the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases that warm the atmosphere and, in some regions, sulfate aerosols that cool the atmosphere; and *Most of the observed warming of the last 50 years is attributable to human activities. Carbon dioxide, surface temperatures, precipitation and sea level are all projected to increase globally during the 21st Century because of human activities *All IPCC projections show that the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide will increase significantly during the next century in the absence of climate change policies; *Climate models project that the Earth will warm 1.4 to 5.8oC (2.5 to 10.8oF) between 1990 and 2100, with most land areas warming more than the global average; *Precipitation will increase globally, with increases and decreases locally, with an increase in heavy precipitation events over most land areas; *Sea level is projected to increase 8-88cm between 1990 and 2100; and *Models project an increase in extreme weather events, e.g., heatwaves, heavy precipitation events, floods, droughts, fires, pest outbreaks, mid-latitude continental summer soil moisture deficits, and increased tropical cyclone peak wind and precipitation intensities. When discussing such a misunderstood topic, it is good to have the data on hand. The implications speak for themselves. We are indeed in the midst of an interglacial period. However, we have tweaked the system due to our activities and instead of slowly heading back toward a glacial period, we are warming very quickly (comparatively speaking). From the last glacial maximum to 1900 the earth warmed approximately 5 degrees Celsius in a little more than 10,000 years. The current scientific consensus is that we will warm close to half that or more in only 100 years. >Since ice is a mineral, we're on topic. >I'm not a "pro" but if what National Geographic is feeding us is true (an >I'm educated enough to believe most of what recent studies claim) it is PAST >time to rethink the way we use up earth's rescources. >IOW: yes, there are warmer "interglacial periods" to be expected between ice >ages BUT this hot climat is killing people daily. We are way beyond normal >temps and have been for years. I could go deeper in to this but it would >lead us off topic too far and into the realm of heated political >discussiion... > >Therefore: keep cool everybody > >Cheers from a sizzling Belgium > >Axel Emmermann >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 >E-mail: >axel.emmermann@pandora.be >Visit our homepage: >http://www.minerant.org/index.html >Bezoek onze web-site: >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html >My own web-site: >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kris W. Murray" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:32 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > >> excuse my possible ignorance and the off-topicness, but doesn't the >> globe warm after every ice age and isn't 'global warming' to be >> expected until it shifts and cools to an ice age? >> KM >> On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 03:57 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: >> >> > It has been dry and unusually warm since March! I 've never seen >> > anything >> > like this before except in a study about global warming I read some 15 >> > years >> > ago. >> There are trivial truths & there are great truths. The opposite of a >> trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also >> true. -- Neils Bohr >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/enriched >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds -- **************************************************** Gail Scowcroft Office: 401-874-6724 Associate Director FAX: 401-874-6486 Marine Programs University of Rhode Island South Ferry Rd. Narragansett, RI 02882 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 08:14:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Wed Aug 13 07:14:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] corundum in duluth? In-Reply-To: <10A0E27A-C782-11D7-A305-000A27A8D0F0@his.com> References: Message-ID: >Does anyone know if corundum crystals are found in or near duluth, mn? > >thanks, cathy Dear Cathy, I think the origin of this story lies in an historical mis-identification by the people who founded the 3-M corporation in 1902. Some folks noticed very coarse plagioclase in the rocks near Ilgen City, north of Duluth, but wrongly thought it was coarse corundum. As recounted in "Geology of Minnesota" by Ojakanakas and Matsch, the company to form with the idea of mining these vast resources of "corundum" for abrasive. They soon discovered their mistake. Plagioclase is 6 on the Mohs' Scale, while corundum is 9, so plag. is not a great choice for abrasives. The company about went bust and was reported to be traded at "two shares for a shot and cheap whiskey at that". The company instead began importing garnet for their abrasive, and shifted operations to Duluth. Eventually they disversified, moved to St. Paul and became a world-class operation. A simple hardness test and observation of mineral cleavage would have saved them much grief early on in their history. Otherwise, I know of no corundum occurrences near Duluth in Minnesota. My Minerals of Wisconsin ( http://www.uwrf.edu/~william.s.cordua/WiscMin.html ) data base also shows corundum to be very sparse in that neighboring state as well. The nearest report is as microscopic specks in the Barron quartzite in the Blue Hills of Wisconsin, about a hundred miles south-east of Duluth. It is found there as a rare "heavy mineral" which was washed in in tiny amount with the sand that formed this rock around 1.7 billion years ago. Not anything a collector would notice. Hope to see you and others at the Midwest Federation Show this week-end in Cottage Grove, MN. Best wishes - Bill Cordua Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 08:19:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Wed Aug 13 07:19:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <200308052035.h75KZ6T2018706@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <3F3A48C7.8D106FCF@att.net> buff1@ptdprolog.net wrote: > > Not trying to argumentative here but need to understand this myself... in > referance to (OH) and H20 these are two entirely differant beasts arent they > one having one valence and the other having a neutral valence... but needed > to complete the xtal structure, or have I missed the point.. I wonder this myself. I used the terms "structural water" and "zeolitic water" in a class a few weeks ago and was roundly ripped by one of the instructors. He said, among other things, "I don't know why people keep calling hydroxl water, where is the other hydrogen?" (sentence edited for family consumption) I have often wondered the same thing, but others keep telling me that "it is just a different structural interpretation of water," or words to that effect. I remain confused; but if all that missing hydrogen is floating around, nobody light a match. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 08:20:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Thomas Yancey) Date: Wed Aug 13 07:20:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Folks, I would like to add to this discussion about global warming, because it involves geological relationships as well as human activities. First, we have to fully accept the fact that carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere has increased dramatically in the last 200 years, to a level not reached for tens of millions of years in the past. This greenhouse gas will certainly lead to higher global temperatures and some of the effects are being seen now. For the past 100 million years, the general trend in carbon dioxide content in the atmosphere had a slow downward decrease, until the industrial burning of fossil fuels abruptly changed that trend and returned the Earth to carbon dioxide levels not seen since the hothouse climates of the Cretaceous. The clearest expression of global warming is seen in areas where mean annual temperature controls the amount of ice present on the land: mountain tops with glaciers and the edges of the arctic and antarctic regions. Mountain-top glaciers have been in decline for many decades on all of the continents, in low latitudes, temperate areas, and polar regions. (For those of us in the US, think of the decrease in glaciers in Glacier National Park, Montana, and in Glacier Bay, Alaska. For those outside the US, think of the decline in glaciers on Kilamanjaro and in the Peruvian Andes Mountains.) The Antarctic ice sheet is shirking, as ice shelves break off and drift away from the continent and the Arctic Ocean ice is thinning considerably. Another strong indication is the northward (in northern hemisphere) movement of the edge of warm waters along the continental shores. This is seen in the northward migration of warm water fish and invertebrates and northward retreat of cool water species. Oceanic fisheries are changing because of this, as well as by overfishing. There is no single way of explaining this warming trend. Complicating the picture is the fact that weather - the aspect we all experience - is fundamentally local in nature and highly variable at all times. The heat that the Earth receives is distributed by movement of air and water is very complicated currents, so we cannot expect to see a gradual trend at any one place. Events like the Little Ice Age and the Heinrich events appear to be triggered by shifts in the positions of ocean currents, that influence movement of air masses and create major changes in climate. The long term trends in climate change are determined by at least two controls that can be documented. The first is the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, of which carbon dioxide is definitely the most important. This determines how much heat from the Sun in retained by the Earth. Current carbon dioxide levels are as high as those of times of much warmer global climates. It is safe to say that when the effects are fully realized, local climates will be several degrees C warmer than they are now. Carbon dioxide and the carbon cycle are fundamental controls on Earth climate, that operate on time scales of tens and hundreds of millions of years - under natural conditions. Man has been able to change that abruptly and circumvent the controls that keep the gases in balance. Even so, the Earth has moderating influences that may reduce the effects of carbon dioxide buildup for the immediate future, but the trend has been started to warmer global temperatures. The second control on global climate is the orbital variations of the Earth that control the amount of heat retained by the Earth (the orbital variations are described as Milankovich cycles). These orbital variations have been a dominant control on shorter duration cycles over the past several million years. The Ice Ages of the past million years have been strongly controlled by orbital variations that occur on a 100,000 year cycle. There are also shorter duration cycles that moderates the 100,000 year cycle. The warm climate interglacials tend to last about 20,000 years and then there is a long, slow cooling that culminates late, followed by a rapid warming. Feedback controls on heat retention by the Earth cause this asymmetry. The last ice age had a build-up that lasted about 60,000 years and reached a cold peak about 25,000 years before the present. When the warming started, it took only 15,000 years to return to interglacial temperature conditions. The last interglacial started about 10,000 years before the present. For about 5000 years in the early part of the interglacial, global temperatures were about 1 degree C warmer than the average modern global tempertures, then there followed a cooler phase in the interglacial that includes even shorter variations such as the Little Ice Age. These shorter term events seem not to be caused by orbital cycles or by long term variation in carbon cycle (carbon dioxide). They probably reflect the complications of ocean and atmosphere circulation variations. Thus, this is in the realm of meteorology and we cannot draw sound conclusions from the geological record for such short term variations. What geology and meteorology can do is to determine a reliable historical record of what has happened over time. As a final comment, there definitely is a strong correlation of carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere and global temperatures, but it occurs on a time scale of millions of years because the Earth has a great capacity to moderate carbon dioxide levels by storing it in the form of limestone and peat/coal. T. Yancey > > I follow this topic since I have done some climate modeling >> of the potential effects of global warming (whether human caused or not) >> on salmon here in the northwest US. While I agree that the earth is >> warming since the last Ice Age and will probably continue to do so until >> whatever conditions cause an Ice Age are present again, the rate of >> increase in mean global temperature has been much faster than in previous >> warming episodes. The only rational explanation for this is the burning >> of fossil fuels. > >I disagree, there are plenty of other rational explanations, one being >changes in Solar Activity. The fossil fuel theory does nothing to explain >why average temperatures were distinctly higher a thousand years ago from >1000 to 1300 AD. Greenland supported farms during this period. The world >then plunged into the mini-ice age which it has been in until about a >hundred years ago. It is the recovery from that cool period that people are >pointing at as global warming. But almost all of this 'warming' occurred >from 1900 to 1950 and there may be an actual cooling trend going on now. > >Furthermore if you look farther back you can find periods where the CO2 >level in the air was two or three times higher than it is now but these were >NOT warm periods. So the correlation of [CO2] and global temperature doesn't >hold up either. > >You need to add one very important fact into these calculations, there is a >big-money industry going on based on global warming. There are many >scientific grants awarded to study it and they would dry up unless the >researchers found that global warming exists. If you want to catch the >criminals just follow the money. > >Bryan From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 08:23:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Wed Aug 13 07:23:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <200308052035.h75KZ6T2018706@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: Message-ID: >Not trying to argumentative here but need to understand this myself... in >referance to (OH) and H20 these are two entirely differant beasts arent they >one having one valence and the other having a neutral valence... but needed >to complete the xtal structure, or have I missed the point.. You are right that these are different - but they are related beasts. If you heat at (OH) bearing mineral, you can free those chemicals as drops of H20. Water (H20) is also consumed in reactions making (OH) bearing minerals. The extra hydrogen is given up in being bonded into the mineral's structure, as often happens during metamorphism or even weathering (feldspars to clay minerals, e.g.). Geologists do talk about (OH) in these minerals as "water" even though it is chemically not H20. We do so because (OH) is how the chemicals from our friend liquid water gets stored in these minerals under various geological conditions. Yes, I know, another bad habit in usage. Best wishes - Bill Cordua > Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 08:32:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Thomas Yancey) Date: Wed Aug 13 07:32:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Axel, Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not have much effect on short term weather variations. T. Yancey >I recently learned that rocks and mountains can absorb CO2... >Do you know how they do that? > snip > >Axel Emmermann >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 10:25:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Wed Aug 13 09:25:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? Message-ID: I have been down in the Lakeview Oregon area in July and froze my behind off! Usually you are at least in the 80's or 90's, especially the closer to August you are! Don't know which is worse cold stiff fingers trying to pick up sunstones or swollen fingers with the rest of the body swollen from the heat! Dawn >From: Lapadary@aol.com >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:12:27 EDT > >In a message dated 8/12/03 2:16:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >Tim@orerockon.com writes: > > > . We also had record temperatures in June and a record hot spell in > > July here in Oregon; > >Two or three years back my wife and I were at her ranch in Fort Klamath and >decided to go on up to Richardson Ranch and the John Day Fossil beds. One >afternoon we stopped in Fossil and went out behind the High School to look >for >leaf imprints. It was so hot we just scooped up some rock and left. At the >Fairgrounds RV area we plugged in and ran our AC. The Spokane radio station >reported >108 degrees that day. I really wanted to spend time at Fossil High School >looking for fossils but it just wasn't worth it. > >I live in CA where it is normally hot but when I go into the North West I >expect cooler weather. The irony is we burned a lot of gas getting to a >site then >discovered it was so hot we couldn't work outside. > >Grant Chico, CA > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 10:25:19 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Wed Aug 13 09:25:19 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> List, I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I see this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. Thank you both. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 10:27:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Aug 13 09:27:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812140507.01cfa090@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030813092147.01d2a3c8@mail.spiritone.com> You are absolutely correct there are many theories and hypotheses with abundant data to back them up. I just happen to believe in one of them more than the others. And it's not all due to CO2 (read the literature please before you posit arguments). Particulates play a huge role in insulating the atmosphere as you pointed out. And I am the recipient of one of those grants (or rather was lol) and I'll take their money whatever the reason. So would you if it meant paying your mortgage and sending your son to college... At 05:18 PM 8/12/2003, you wrote: > > I follow this topic since I have done some climate modeling > of the potential effects of global warming (whether human caused or not) > on salmon here in the northwest US. While I agree that the earth is > warming since the last Ice Age and will probably continue to do so until > whatever conditions cause an Ice Age are present again, the rate of > increase in mean global temperature has been much faster than in previous > warming episodes. The only rational explanation for this is the burning > of fossil fuels. I disagree, there are plenty of other rational explanations, one being changes in Solar Activity. The fossil fuel theory does nothing to explain why average temperatures were distinctly higher a thousand years ago from 1000 to 1300 AD. Greenland supported farms during this period. The world then plunged into the mini-ice age which it has been in until about a hundred years ago. It is the recovery from that cool period that people are pointing at as global warming. But almost all of this 'warming' occurred from 1900 to 1950 and there may be an actual cooling trend going on now. Furthermore if you look farther back you can find periods where the CO2 level in the air was two or three times higher than it is now but these were NOT warm periods. So the correlation of [CO2] and global temperature doesn't hold up either. You need to add one very important fact into these calculations, there is a big-money industry going on based on global warming. There are many scientific grants awarded to study it and they would dry up unless the researchers found that global warming exists. If you want to catch the criminals just follow the money. Bryan Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 10:29:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Aug 13 09:29:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update In-Reply-To: <388C6118-CD25-11D7-90EF-000393A96092@mac.com> References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030812052421.01cdeb78@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030813092653.01d2a648@mail.spiritone.com> Dave Matthews Band at the Gorge Amphitheatre in George. Hey I need something to do other than dig rocks lol. At 05:29 PM 8/12/2003, you wrote: dmb at the gorge?? KM On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 05:32 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: (DMB at the Gorge :)Men are not monogamous by nature _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 10:55:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Aug 13 09:55:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <00be01c361bb$96421e40$979f77d5@pandora.be> Thanks, I was aware of the fact but I wonder about the chemstry that makes it happen. As far as I know, exposed rocks are already either cabonates or silicates or borates... I do not know of any mineral that would gladly react with CO2 like lime would or caustic soda... Naturally, in every rock there is some water and water may dissolve some CO2... Seems like this global warming thread has some deep roots in geology after all.... Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yancey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Axel, > > Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is > important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the > crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result > of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the > minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the > water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock > reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term > storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the > atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in > carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount > of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, > this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is > important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not > have much effect on short term weather variations. > > T. Yancey > > > >I recently learned that rocks and mountains can absorb CO2... > >Do you know how they do that? > > > > snip > > > > >Axel Emmermann > >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 11:01:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Christian Auer) Date: Wed Aug 13 10:01:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite?= References: Message-ID: <000901c361bb$df3a1490$fb9bda3e@Auerchri> Hi List, I have few favourite mines that I`m collecting. One is the Middle Age gold-scheelite mine of Schellgaden in Salzburg, Austria. Its type locality of the species phosphorrößlerite collected in remote areas of the 45km mine. Now I saw that its not an accepted species any more! Does anybody know why???? Chris Auer ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: http://www.wulfenite.com for the wulfenite enthusiast http://www.minerlamps.com for the mining lamp collector ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 11:05:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Aug 13 10:05:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> Message-ID: <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> Hi Teresa, maybe my reaction "I fear for my childrens lives" sounded a bit harsh... let me smooth this one out a little. I'm allergic to people who say that the global warming is a figment of our imagination and that it has become an industry on it's own... Why? Well, here's an example of a similar story: Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is not loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is loaded. Do you want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an experiment to prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the experiment involves releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you think I would get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small steps like the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and intellect..... Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "TA Masters" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > List, > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I see > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > Thank you both. > Teresa > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 11:11:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Wed Aug 13 10:11:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0AC3599B-CDB1-11D7-A5B8-000393B396CA@mac.com> great info, but a question. won't a quicker approach to the high temp. between glacial periods simply mean a quicker descent into an ice age? KMOn Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 02:47 PM, gailscow@gso.uri.edu wrote: > We are indeed in the midst of an interglacial period. However, we > have tweaked the system due to our activities and instead of slowly > heading back toward a glacial period, we are warming very quickly > (comparatively speaking). It is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways. - Buddha --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 11:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Wed Aug 13 10:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? Message-ID: <001901c361c0$db7e2bc0$66bd79c3@o8o3s6> >Thanks, I was aware of the fact but I wonder about the chemstry that makes >it happen. >As far as I know, exposed rocks are already either cabonates or silicates or >borates... I do not know of any mineral that would gladly react with CO2 >like lime would or caustic soda... >Naturally, in every rock there is some water and water may dissolve some >CO2... I think what is meant here is that rocks (limestone) form a great reservoir to store the earth's CO2. The CO2 is not directly absorbed into the rock, but it is absorbed into the sea. As we all know limestone has it's origin in shallow seas. At the moment the vast majority of CO2 on this planet occurs in limestone. The relation with global heating it not so much that any rock could somehow capture CO2 from the atmosphere, but it is the other way around. By enviromental changes like acidic rain (SO2) the limestone dissolves and sets more CO2 free. Or the global heating is caused by us rockhouds, dissolving all the calcite crusts from our samples.......... It is an interesting discussion an I wonder what the effect of huge volcanic eruptions would be? Was there for instance an increase in global temperature after the huge Deccan trap volcanic activity in India (Poona zeolite localities)? regards from a still warm Holland (I would like a cold fizzling beer, but that only makes things worse in time....) Maurice > >Seems like this global warming thread has some deep roots in geology after >all.... > >Cheers > >Axel Emmermann >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 >E-mail: >axel.emmermann@pandora.be >Visit our homepage: >http://www.minerant.org/index.html >Bezoek onze web-site: >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html >My own web-site: >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Thomas Yancey" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:28 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > >> Axel, >> >> Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is >> important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the >> crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result >> of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the >> minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the >> water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock >> reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term >> storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the >> atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in >> carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount >> of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, >> this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is >> important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not >> have much effect on short term weather variations. >> >> T. Yancey >> >> >> >I recently learned that rocks and mountains can absorb CO2... >> >Do you know how they do that? >> > >> >> snip >> >> > >> >Axel Emmermann >> >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen >> >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 11:39:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Thomas Yancey) Date: Wed Aug 13 10:39:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <00be01c361bb$96421e40$979f77d5@pandora.be> References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> <00be01c361bb$96421e40$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: I should have said that it is the high temperature silicate minerals (components of granitic rocks, volcanic rocks, high grade metamorphic rocks) that consume most of the carbon during weathering. These silicates formed under conditions different than Earth surface conditions, so are unstable and produce a variety of carbon-containing weathering products. A major product is sedimentary calcium carbonate (calcite, aragonite, etc.) Of course, the carbonates present in sedimentary rocks also weather, without consuming carbon, but they are again prone to re-precipitate as carbonate, thus not changing the carbon balance. However, it carbonates are involved in deep metamorphism, they are degraded and will release carbon dioxide gas that is released during volcanism to complete their part in the carbon cycle. The lower temperature silicate clay minerals must also be part of this cycle, but I am not aware of any specific study that addresses this issue. They seem to be regarded as a minor component in the geological carbon cycle. I would say that borates are a minor group of minerals in surface sediments. Sulphates are more important, and they are of importance in the sulfur cycle that is of interest in oceanography. Again, on a geological time scale. T. Yancey >Thanks, I was aware of the fact but I wonder about the chemstry that makes >it happen. >As far as I know, exposed rocks are already either cabonates or silicates or >borates... I do not know of any mineral that would gladly react with CO2 >like lime would or caustic soda... >Naturally, in every rock there is some water and water may dissolve some >CO2... snip >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Thomas Yancey" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:28 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > >> Axel, >> >> Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is >> important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the >> crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result >> of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the >> minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the >> water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock >> reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term >> storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the >> atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in >> carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount >> of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, >> this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is >> important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not > > have much effect on short term weather variations. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 12:09:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (William S. Cordua) Date: Wed Aug 13 11:09:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Minerals and global warming? In-Reply-To: References: <00be01c361bb$96421e40$979f77d5@pandora.be> <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> <00be01c361bb$96421e40$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Hi again. Despite being recently praised for avoiding this topic, I can't resist coming in on the relationships between minerals and CO2. I have heard it argued that mountain building itself indirectly releases CO2 into the air, and there are those who are seeking a correlation between continental mountain building and periods of global warming in the geological past. The link is this: when mountain ranges form, a lot of limestone gets metamorphosed. During this, some (not all, though) calcite and dolomite get converted to minerals like talc, grossular garnet, tremolite and diopside, which don't have CO2 in them. A lot of this CO2 is thus freed to eventually seep to the surface through springs and get added to the air, encouraging global warming. That's one of the problems with climate modeling. There are so many variables, acting at such different rates and scales. BTW I personally find the evidence for humans contributing to the current global warming trend to be very strong. I thank Gail Scowcroft for her excellent summary and references. Best wishes - Bill Cordua >I should have said that it is the high temperature silicate minerals >(components of granitic rocks, volcanic rocks, high grade metamorphic >rocks) that consume most of the carbon during weathering. These >silicates formed under conditions different than Earth surface >conditions, so are unstable and produce a variety of >carbon-containing weathering products. A major product is sedimentary >calcium carbonate (calcite, aragonite, etc.) Of course, the >carbonates present in sedimentary rocks also weather, without >consuming carbon, but they are again prone to re-precipitate as >carbonate, thus not changing the carbon balance. However, it >carbonates are involved in deep metamorphism, they are degraded and >will release carbon dioxide gas that is released during volcanism to >complete their part in the carbon cycle. > >The lower temperature silicate clay minerals must also be part of >this cycle, but I am not aware of any specific study that addresses >this issue. They seem to be regarded as a minor component in the >geological carbon cycle. > >I would say that borates are a minor group of minerals in surface >sediments. Sulphates are more important, and they are of importance >in the sulfur cycle that is of interest in oceanography. Again, on a >geological time scale. > >T. Yancey > > >>Thanks, I was aware of the fact but I wonder about the chemstry that makes >>it happen. >>As far as I know, exposed rocks are already either cabonates or silicates or >>borates... I do not know of any mineral that would gladly react with CO2 >>like lime would or caustic soda... >>Naturally, in every rock there is some water and water may dissolve some >>CO2... > >snip > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Thomas Yancey" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:28 PM >>Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? >> >> >>> Axel, >>> >>> Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is >>> important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the >>> crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result >>> of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the >>> minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the >>> water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock >>> reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term >>> storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the >>> atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in >>> carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount >>> of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, >>> this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is >>> important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not >> > have much effect on short term weather variations. >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Dr. William S. Cordua Professor of Geology/Mineralogy University of Wisconsin - River Falls 410 South Third Street River Falls, WI 54022 715-425-3139 william.s.cordua@uwrf.edu "Speak to the Earth and it shall teach thee" - Job 12:8 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 15:05:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Nathan C. Martin II) Date: Wed Aug 13 14:05:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Extreme Global Cooling Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030813163012.01dfe6b8@po2.bbn.com> Although I don't have anything to add to the current thread about global warming, it reminds me of different but related topic of a Boston (MA, USA) Mineral Club presentation about a year ago by Harvard Professor Paul Hoffman (one of the benefits of meeting in a Harvard University geology lecture hall is the ability to book some top notch speakers). The topic of his presentation was "An unusual Barite occurrence and its relationship to the Snowball Earth hypothesis". In it he described some field research that identified a several inches thick sedimental layer of barite between layers of limestone in the Mackenzie Mountains of Northwest Canada. If I remember correctly this is anomalous because barite is not very soluble in seawater and thus precipitates as soon as it forms resulting in finely distributed grains mixed with other sediments rather than concentrating in a thick layer. One possible explanation is an anoxic ocean (i.e.: without oxygen) as might exist if ice covered the entire earth. Deprived of oxygen, the barium would stay in solution until some warming event allowed a more normal oxygen balance to be re-established. Then barite precipitation would be dramatic. Anyway it was a fascinating presentation and if anyone is interested in finding out more about the Snowball Earth Hypothesis, you can take a look at a couple of his papers at the following URL's: A) for a good introduction that is fairly easy to grasp try http://www.eps.harvard.edu/people/faculty/hoffman/snowball_paper.html B) for a more thorough technical paper with some great pictures of banded iron formations and the Mackenzie Mountains barite layers go to http://www.eps.harvard.edu/people/faculty/hoffman/TerraNova.PDF If nothing else contemplating an ice covered planet should make our warm summer seem a bit more bearable. Best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA, USA From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 15:17:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Wed Aug 13 14:17:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030813092653.01d2a648@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6BFB4FC4-CDD3-11D7-9B09-000393A96092@mac.com> ahhhh LOL lovely venue KM On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 09:27 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: > Dave Matthews Band at the Gorge Amphitheatre in George. Hey > I need something to do other than dig rocks lol. > > > At 05:29 PM 8/12/2003, you wrote: > > dmb at the gorge?? Words tend to be inadequate From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 15:24:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Aug 13 14:24:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Saddle Mountains trip report and Diatomite pits update In-Reply-To: <6BFB4FC4-CDD3-11D7-9B09-000393A96092@mac.com> References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030813092653.01d2a648@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030813142206.01cf61e8@mail.spiritone.com> Yeah and while I was waiting (oops meant drinking lol) I used my binocs to look for wood in the cliffs across the Columbia! Didn't find any alas... At 02:16 PM 8/13/2003, you wrote: ahhhh LOL lovely venue KM On Wednesday, August 13, 2003, at 09:27 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: Dave Matthews Band at the Gorge Amphitheatre in George. Hey I need something to do other than dig rocks lol. At 05:29 PM 8/12/2003, you wrote: dmb at the gorge??Words tend to be inadequate Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 16:16:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Aug 13 15:16:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] trying to reach Horst In-Reply-To: <003701c35f4f$34ab4300$633e27c4@horstspc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030813121838.020439d0@mail.aloha.net> Hi List, I've been communicating with Horst Windisch off list, and when I tried replying to one of his messages on August 8 it came back with a message that said: I tried again the next day with the same result. Then on the 10th the message below was posted to the list without anything written below the and Kreigh Tomaszewsky---who is staying with us this week---suggested Horst may have a computer virus. He also suggested he might be able to receive from the list but not me (for some reason). SO: Horst, are you there? We hope you are continuing to recover from your surgery, and that your computer recovers too! Aloha, Kitty At 04:24 AM 8/10/2003, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Douw Steyn >To: Pretoria Gem & Mineral Club >Cc: Central Gem and Mineral Club ; Gem and Mineral Society of Zimbabwe ; >Kimberley Lapidary Club ; Mineralogical Society of Southern Africa Cape >Town ; Namaqualand Mineral Society ; Natal Mineral & Gem Society ; >Pietermaritzburg Gem and Mineral Club ; Pretoria Gem & Mineral Club ; >South African Gem and Mineral Club ; Walvis Bay Gem and Mineral Club ; >Witwatersrand Gem & Mineral Club ; Zululand Rock & Mineral Club >Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:46 AM >Subject: July Newsletter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 17:23:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Aug 13 16:23:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a fellow approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon and that by watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma of the left leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can amputate the leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the money and secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global warming if indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan will only fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of a degree. But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one country has tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the loudest about the issue. The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held as anathema by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical large scale source of non-polluting power. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is not > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > loaded. Do you > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an experiment to > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the experiment involves > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > think I would > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small steps like > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and > intellect..... > > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TA Masters" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > List, > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I see > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > Thank you both. > > Teresa > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 20:04:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Wed Aug 13 19:04:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite?= References: <000901c361bb$df3a1490$fb9bda3e@Auerchri> Message-ID: <3F3AEE07.29919E39@att.net> Christian Auer wrote: > > I have few favourite mines that I`m collecting. One is the Middle Age > gold-scheelite mine of Schellgaden in Salzburg, Austria. > Its type locality of the species phosphorrößlerite collected in remote areas > of the 45km mine. > Now I saw that its not an accepted species any more! > Does anybody know why???? Maybe the es-szet drove people insane? Or . . . >From the Aleph Enterprises web site: Phosphorrösslerite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mg(PO3OH)*7H2O However, Fleischer's (1999) has this: MgHPO4*7H2O The 2001 supplement to Fleischer's doesn't mention that it needs to be removed. The Handbook of Mineralogy (2000) has this: Mg(PO3OH)*7H2O It also says this (Volume IV, page 461): " . . . Soluble in H2O; alters to newberyite on exposure." The cell data and powder data are derived from synthetic analogues. " . . . Occurence: In cold (10 deg. C) wet muck in an abandoned mine. [Chris, is this what you do in your spare time?] " . . . Distribution: From the Stüblbau works, Schellgaden, Austria." Why do you think it is discredited? Do you have the discrediting article? If it was discredited in the last year or two, I could only imagine it is because a) it alters to newberyite or 2) it was reclassified as anthropogenic, although one would imagine that very criteria would discredit quite a number of minerals if some were examined again. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 21:35:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Wed Aug 13 20:35:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What I would like to know is how many pounds of CO2 are released per acre of forest fire? It should be pretty simple to figure out knowing the pounds of wood per acre and the resultant pounds of CO2 produced when it burns. It would be interesting to know the comparison of the amount of CO2 released from the 100,000 acres of forest now burning and the amount released from say a years worth of oil consumption. Has a study been done to see just what CO2 increase might be coming from the destruction of the rain forests or the increased burning because of overprotection of the national forests from logging. And yes, the only viable alternative is nuclear. Use nuclear to create electricity to disassocite hydrogen for the vehicular needs of the world. > -----Original Message----- > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global > warming if > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan will only > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of > a degree. > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one country has > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the loudest about > the issue. > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held > as anathema > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical large scale > source of non-polluting power. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 21:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 13 20:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Loda bahia Message-ID: <182.1f18935d.2c6c5fd8@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/2003 8:01:37 PM Central Daylight Time, rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: > simple quartz with some type of possibly chlorite inclusion.........another > clever marketing scheme by the New Age people....stuff that used to be worth > a few dollars is not worth a fortune, because it's been given a pretty > name.... :-) > I have some, not by that name but I recognize it from the pic at http://www.angelfire.com/ia/alikatzgeodes/images/cx03.gif (thanks Grant) I bought it to add to my collection of 'stuff,' and was told that it is sold as a talisman to ward of cancer. It's a nice thought, but totally hogwash. Susy --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 22:13:59 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Wed Aug 13 21:13:59 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> Dear Axel, When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, "thank You Axel" for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot and sent too quickly. Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of evidence of that in the world today. Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 22:17:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 13 21:17:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Global Warming Message-ID: <6.16d91c65.2c6c6733@aol.com> In a message dated 8/12/2003 8:01:36 PM Central Daylight Time, rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: > Someone brought up the Little Ice Age which is > an excellent example of a continent-wide short-term anomalous weather > pattern that was detectable even with the instruments we had at the time > (mid 1800s as I recall). It will take many years of > warmer-than-average temperatures world-wide to inch the global mean > temperature up another 10th of a degree; usually the unusually warm > weather is offset by unusually cool weather somewhere else (i.e. the > summer of no summer the NE US is experiencing right now). > In the past century we have polluted the earth quite possibly more than in millenniums before that. Although I am not a scientist, my gut feeling is that just transportation (emissions, raw materials made into parts, fuel sources, etc.) alone pollutes enough to have a significant impact. Add to that all the chemicals used to give us our non-sustainable lifestyle (in most countries) and we just may be in for a shock! A big one! And who can put a price on the impact of waging war? How many times in the last century? I would like to believe that the weather patterns are able to bounce back after the human assaults of the 20th, 21st century, but I am a skeptic, at best! Susy --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 22:23:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 13 21:23:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Global warming Message-ID: <78.456e46fb.2c6c686f@aol.com> In a message dated 8/12/2003 8:01:36 PM Central Daylight Time, rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: > If you want to catch the > criminals just follow the money. > > Right to the oil, then to the gas pump. Susy --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 13 23:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Christian Auer) Date: Wed Aug 13 22:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite?= References: <000901c361bb$df3a1490$fb9bda3e@Auerchri> <3F3AEE07.29919E39@att.net> Message-ID: <002801c36225$24731660$c89cda3e@Auerchri> Hi Don, Yes crawling through 10 deg. C wet muck in abandoned mines is the best possibility to cool down when its sooooo hot outside :-) And if you find excellent gold micros (also xtls!!) there its my favourite place to be. Citing our most famous Austrian geologist O.M.Friedrich Phosphorroesslerite was found in 20-30cm deep muddy areas of this remote mine together with small bones of bats. It lookes like candy sugar up to 2-3 cm. I think I saw on mindat or athena that phosphorroesslerite was written with " ". By the way the second occurance of it is also in Austria and is also in a very old, narrow and abandoned mine of Schladming, Styria. Chris Auer ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: http://www.wulfenite.com for the wulfenite enthusiast http://www.minerlamps.com for the mining lamp collector ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: " . . . Occurence: In cold (10 deg. C) wet muck in an abandoned mine. [Chris, is this what you do in your spare time?] " . . . Distribution: From the Stüblbau works, Schellgaden, Austria." Why do you think it is discredited? Do you have the discrediting article? If it was discredited in the last year or two, I could only imagine it is because a) it alters to newberyite or 2) it was reclassified as anthropogenic, although one would imagine that very criteria would discredit quite a number of minerals if some were examined again. Don _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 03:17:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Thu Aug 14 02:17:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] ROCKS from Italy - visit us ! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20030814111802.00dfe020@popmail.libero.it> If you have time and interest to see what is available from Italy, go to: http://www.italianminerals.com/ A lot of pages are dedicated to italian minerals: fluorite, tinzenite, brookite, tourmaline, beryl, sulfur, anglesite, phosgenite, calcite, hemimorphite, garnets, botriogen, celestite and more ! There are also a lot of worldwide specimens: benitoite, fluorite, red beryls, beryls, elbaite, gypsum, tourmaline, garnets, quartz, sphalerite, fluorite, atacamite, rutile, magnetite, gold, rhodocrosite, and more !! Visit us, we will be pleased to have you surfing our website ! ItalianMinerals.com ============================= Italian Minerals http://www.italianminerals.com quality minerals from Italy and worldwide ============================= From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 06:29:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 14 05:29:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Phosphorrößlerite Message-ID: <200308141228.h7ECSrTw016809@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Grrr! Don't rely on mindat (or mincrap, as some of us call it); too much misinformation and unvalidated data. My web mailer did not print the special character you enclosed in the " ". Was it an es-szet? If so, Hey's mineral index lists that as a synonym. I think the culture has accepted most diacritical markings in mineral names, but I don't think "ß" has made it yet; and anyway, aren't they trying to get rid of that with "Rechtschreibung" (or as I call it, "Schlechtschreibung")? I will use it for the rest of my life no matter what, because that's how I learned to spell goshdarnit, but I'm just wondering. I am wondering if the mineral stays stable if you keep it at 10 deg. C. If those caves were warmer, and given the presence of bats, I wonder if it wouldn't have simply formed as newberyite from the beginning. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 08:27:06 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Christian Auer) Date: Thu Aug 14 07:27:06 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite?= References: <200308141228.h7ECSrTw016809@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000901c3626f$aab20070$6ef098d4@Auerchri> Hi, Thats the question: Can 2-3 cm large xtls grow just from the phosphor of little bat bones? This would mean a mass suicide of bats in earlier days but now I see maybe one bat at a time. And if so why shouldn`t it be a species. Where was the human influence in comparison with minerals like abhurite (grown on a ship wrack). So I hope mindat just made a mistake and phosporroesslerite is still a species. The storage of such species is definitely a problem: I have it sealed in a bottle, in the cellar by 12°C and in the dark. Tomorrow I`ll be there again visiting my gold place :-) Chris Auer ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: http://www.wulfenite.com for the wulfenite enthusiast http://www.minerlamps.com for the mining lamp collector ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 10:05:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Thu Aug 14 09:05:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite?= References: <200308141228.h7ECSrTw016809@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <000901c3626f$aab20070$6ef098d4@Auerchri> Message-ID: <000401c3627e$9a3a01c0$9105efd1@oemcomputer> Lots of stuff grows in bat guano (and other weird organic situations). Bats often roost in the hundreds or thousands, perhaps conditions have changed in the mine so they don't find it suitable at present. I'd ask the MinDat admin why its been delisted, considering it's valid in hard copy. MinDat is not perfect. If it's not simply a typo or omission, ask for a reference to the paper that invalidates the mineral. It wouldn't be hard to find the IMA paper describing their position on manmade minerals and what exactly is now considered a valid species. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr, tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The mineralogy of Ontario, Canada: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Auer" To: Sent: August 14, 2003 10:23 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Phosphorrößlerite > Hi, > Thats the question: Can 2-3 cm large xtls grow just from the phosphor of > little bat bones? This would mean a mass suicide of bats in earlier days but > now I see maybe one bat at a time. And if so why shouldn`t it be a species. > Where was the human influence in comparison with minerals like abhurite > (grown on a ship wrack). > So I hope mindat just made a mistake and phosporroesslerite is still a > species. > > The storage of such species is definitely a problem: I have it sealed in a > bottle, in the cellar by 12°C and in the dark. > > Tomorrow I`ll be there again visiting my gold place :-) > > Chris Auer > ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > http://www.wulfenite.com for the wulfenite enthusiast > http://www.minerlamps.com for the mining lamp collector > ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 11:01:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 14 10:01:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Phosphorrößlerite Message-ID: <200308141700.h7EH0mWn004676@bubbleator.drizzle.com> > It wouldn't be hard to find the IMA paper describing their position on > manmade minerals and what exactly is now considered a valid species. The IMA98 literature, with which I am painfully familiar, describes mineral nomenclature in a general guideline. As we know, the IMA is concerned more with the approval of new minerals and the reclassification of existing minerals. There are people who abhor the existence of species such the Lavrion slag minerals and diaoyudaoite because they are either anthropogenic or appear to be so, keeping in mind that anthropogenic can be translated as "to cause to come into being by the actions of man (or humanity, P.C.)." The IMA does not as a body go back and review the status of approved or grandfathered minerals. However, if a scientist wishes to investigate a mineral and submit a discreditation paper in accordance with Dr. Dunn's guidelines on the subject (part of the IMA literature), then he or she is free to do so. From what I understand, it can be more difficult to discredit an approved species than to have a new one approved. That being said, I am wondering about the argentite/acanthite issue: who decided to do the discreditation, and how it was done. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 11:15:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Christian Auer) Date: Thu Aug 14 10:15:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lavrion - Greece References: <200308141700.h7EH0mWn004676@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000701c36287$0d0b57a0$a19eda3e@Auerchri> Hi, You mentioned Lavrion. Bad news from there. A local (probably envy) made some pressure on the majors of Lavrion district. Since this summer police is controlling very strictly the mineb entrances. My collector friend Fritz was also at the police station once. They have a list of many collector names. So noone was able to get access underground there this summer which means good or rare species are history! Chris Auer ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: http://www.wulfenite.com for the wulfenite enthusiast http://www.minerlamps.com for the mining lamp collector ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 11:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 14 10:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lavrion - Greece Message-ID: <200308141733.h7EHXsC2007531@bubbleator.drizzle.com> > Hi, > You mentioned Lavrion. Bad news from there. > A local (probably envy) made some pressure on the majors of Lavrion > district. Since this summer police is controlling very strictly the mineb > entrances. > My collector friend Fritz was also at the police station once. They have a > list of many collector names. Argh. So I see the Greek goverment is getting as bad as ours when it comes to telling you when, where, and how you can and can't go. Nice world we live in. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 11:44:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Aug 14 10:44:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <200308141228.h7ECSrTw016809@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <009301c3628b$924aaed0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Hi Everyone, Mindat exists on the good will and co-operation of a great amount of hard working good meaning collectors... ergo: if someone thinks Mindat is Mincrap they should take an account on Mindat and contribute and correct the errors in the superb-large database it's easier to speak bad of mindat instead of working on it to make it better you might (might) want to say 'shut up and work' ;-) Cheers! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:28 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Phosphorrößlerite > > Grrr! Don't rely on mindat (or mincrap, as some of us call it); too much > misinformation and unvalidated data. > > My web mailer did not print the special character you enclosed in the " ". > Was it an es-szet? If so, Hey's mineral index lists that as a synonym. I > think the culture has accepted most diacritical markings in mineral names, but > I don't think "ß" has made it yet; and anyway, aren't they trying to get rid > of that with "Rechtschreibung" (or as I call it, "Schlechtschreibung")? I > will use it for the rest of my life no matter what, because that's how I > learned to spell goshdarnit, but I'm just wondering. > > I am wondering if the mineral stays stable if you keep it at 10 deg. C. If > those caves were warmer, and given the presence of bats, I wonder if it > wouldn't have simply formed as newberyite from the beginning. > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 11:50:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (armando afonso) Date: Thu Aug 14 10:50:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lavrion - Greece References: <200308141733.h7EHXsC2007531@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000f01c3628c$61dfb460$97e1fea9@1> Dear friends, I am more and more happy living in my under-developed country. I explain: I have a practicaly private (nobody here knows what means mineral specimens,or care about what those holes are) roman mine, in wich I still can collect nice cuprite, magnetite, malachite, azurite, etc. I leave the surplus in place, and normaly everything remains there for years.And this happens with other sites, too. We do not invade other countries to take them their oil at our price. We buy it for what they ask. Buga buga. Armando Afonso, PORTUGAL, AFRICA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lavrion - Greece > > > Hi, > > You mentioned Lavrion. Bad news from there. > > A local (probably envy) made some pressure on the majors of Lavrion > > district. Since this summer police is controlling very strictly the mineb > > entrances. > > My collector friend Fritz was also at the police station once. They have a > > list of many collector names. > > Argh. So I see the Greek goverment is getting as bad as ours when it comes to telling you when, > where, and how you can and can't go. Nice world we live in. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 11:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Aug 14 10:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lavrion - Greece References: <200308141733.h7EHXsC2007531@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <00a301c3628c$954cfce0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> mmm going underground in a mine is often illegal it's simply someone else's land, simply forbidden if you have land there, and there's a mine entrance on your land would you like busses of collectors entering your land? I go underground too, as much as I can actually, sometimes illegal too but I know it's illegal entrance so if it ends, it ends and if I'm caught I say shit and pay the fine don't blame the government, you can go anywhere you want in this world, when you want it, if you got the cash&time ;-) we live in a great world ! cheers! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Lavrion - Greece > > > Hi, > > You mentioned Lavrion. Bad news from there. > > A local (probably envy) made some pressure on the majors of Lavrion > > district. Since this summer police is controlling very strictly the mineb > > entrances. > > My collector friend Fritz was also at the police station once. They have a > > list of many collector names. > > Argh. So I see the Greek goverment is getting as bad as ours when it comes to telling you when, > where, and how you can and can't go. Nice world we live in. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 12:16:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 14 11:16:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] Message-ID: <200308141814.h7EIElUd011561@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I tried. Didn't work. While I am sure there are good people in that system, there are a lot of people inputting data who have no business trying to be authoritative. The reason a lot of people have a problem with it is because it posits itself as an authoritative site when in fact it is not. And why should anyone work on mindat? I didn't tell anyone to put it there or to put data in it; I am not beholden to it. It holds no official status; and the fact that you stated what you stated in the way you stated it is exactly the problem with the site. And by the way, somebody please tell me what an "average refractive index" is, unless they are talking about the Gladstone-Dale index, in which case that is what that field in the site should state. Oy. Before you tell me to shut up and work, you might consider that I have spent ove $30,000 of my own time and money in the last three years contributing to real research, traveling, lecturing, inventing, staying up late and night and working all weekend trying to get things right, researching data, helping people, gathering literature, working with manufacturers on product improvements, helping people with patent applications, testing minerals, going to classes, volunteering at museums, hosting symposia, writing letters, occasionally risking my life, and destroying my car in attempts to reach collecting areas a car is not supposed to be. So, if I may say with as much humility as warranted, I think I have raised the bar for myself a bit higher than contributing to an unvalidated collector-based ego website that doesn't meet my standards. Frank, I am sure your intentions were good in your message, and this is not personal. I suppose we can agree to disagree. But I have looked at the situation, looked at some of the people involved, talked to mineralogists about it, and my analysis stands. Best regards, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 12:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Aug 14 11:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerit?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e=5D?= References: <200308141814.h7EIElUd011561@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <014001c36294$e2e0c8d0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> my intentions are always 'good' and I read your analyses potential is even 'better' hahaha I knew there was someone smarter than me in this world, there always is, damn me that's exactly why I said 'might....' in my message >>you might (might) want to say 'shut up and work' ;-) but I will take that back and change it into: 'please, if you can, make something better on the internet than Mindat.org' or else... I'll shoot ;-) cheers! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > > I tried. Didn't work. > > While I am sure there are good people in that system, there are a lot of > people inputting data who have no business trying to be authoritative. The > reason a lot of people have a problem with it is because it posits itself as > an authoritative site when in fact it is not. And why should anyone work on > mindat? I didn't tell anyone to put it there or to put data in it; I am not > beholden to it. It holds no official status; and the fact that you stated > what you stated in the way you stated it is exactly the problem with the site. > And by the way, somebody please tell me what an "average refractive index" > is, unless they are talking about the Gladstone-Dale index, in which case that > is what that field in the site should state. Oy. > > Before you tell me to shut up and work, you might consider that I have spent > ove $30,000 of my own time and money in the last three years contributing to > real research, traveling, lecturing, inventing, staying up late and night and > working all weekend trying to get things right, researching data, helping > people, gathering literature, working with manufacturers on product > improvements, helping people with patent applications, testing minerals, going > to classes, volunteering at museums, hosting symposia, writing letters, > occasionally risking my life, and destroying my car in attempts to reach > collecting areas a car is not supposed to be. So, if I may say with as much > humility as warranted, I think I have raised the bar for myself a bit higher > than contributing to an unvalidated collector-based ego website that doesn't > meet my standards. > > Frank, I am sure your intentions were good in your message, and this is not > personal. I suppose we can agree to disagree. But I have looked at the > situation, looked at some of the people involved, talked to mineralogists > about it, and my analysis stands. > > Best regards, > > Don > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 14:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Aug 14 13:45:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> Message-ID: Try multiplying that number by a thousand. Bryan > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? > Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 15:31:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Thu Aug 14 14:31:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <3F3BFFAF.3020909@cox.net> Bryan, Fine with me Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 16:50:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (armando afonso) Date: Thu Aug 14 15:50:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <200308141814.h7EIElUd011561@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <014001c36294$e2e0c8d0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Message-ID: <000b01c362b6$4351a560$97e1fea9@1> this is called modesty. AA ----- Original Message ----- From: frank de wit To: Cc: mindat Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > my intentions are always 'good' > and I read your analyses potential is even 'better' hahaha > I knew there was someone smarter than me in this world, there always is, > damn me > > that's exactly why I said > 'might....' in my message >>you might (might) want to say 'shut up and work' > ;-) > but I will take that back and change it into: > > 'please, if you can, make something better on the internet than Mindat.org' > or else... I'll shoot ;-) > > cheers! > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > > > > > > I tried. Didn't work. > > > > While I am sure there are good people in that system, there are a lot of > > people inputting data who have no business trying to be authoritative. > The > > reason a lot of people have a problem with it is because it posits itself > as > > an authoritative site when in fact it is not. And why should anyone work > on > > mindat? I didn't tell anyone to put it there or to put data in it; I am > not > > beholden to it. It holds no official status; and the fact that you stated > > what you stated in the way you stated it is exactly the problem with the > site. > > And by the way, somebody please tell me what an "average refractive > index" > > is, unless they are talking about the Gladstone-Dale index, in which case > that > > is what that field in the site should state. Oy. > > > > Before you tell me to shut up and work, you might consider that I have > spent > > ove $30,000 of my own time and money in the last three years contributing > to > > real research, traveling, lecturing, inventing, staying up late and night > and > > working all weekend trying to get things right, researching data, helping > > people, gathering literature, working with manufacturers on product > > improvements, helping people with patent applications, testing minerals, > going > > to classes, volunteering at museums, hosting symposia, writing letters, > > occasionally risking my life, and destroying my car in attempts to reach > > collecting areas a car is not supposed to be. So, if I may say with as > much > > humility as warranted, I think I have raised the bar for myself a bit > higher > > than contributing to an unvalidated collector-based ego website that > doesn't > > meet my standards. > > > > Frank, I am sure your intentions were good in your message, and this is > not > > personal. I suppose we can agree to disagree. But I have looked at the > > situation, looked at some of the people involved, talked to mineralogists > > about it, and my analysis stands. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 18:35:26 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Thu Aug 14 17:35:26 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] Actions for the Blaster Worm - Special Edition, MSDN Flash (fwd) Message-ID: Yes, I know this is off-topic. As a sort-of affiliated MSDN subscriber, I get their newsletters. This one has worthwhile information on the Blaster worm. Passing it on as a favor. No need to reply, no need to discuss. Flames, complaints, etc off-list, please. The Management -- afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox "You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:15:28 -0700 From: Microsoft <0_51084_EC145C15-34AB-40CB-8F49-CA2ECB0046E4_US@Newsletters.Microsoft.com> Reply-To: 3_51084_EC145C15-34AB-40CB-8F49-CA2ECB0046E4_US@Newsletters.Microsoft.com To: afox@drizzle.com Subject: Actions for the Blaster Worm - Special Edition, MSDN Flash You are receiving this message because you are a Microsoft newsletter subscriber. Please print this page for your reference. For the most recent news about Blaster, it is very important that you visit the Security page: http://www.microsoft.com/security/incident/blast.asp. You will also find tips for helping Friends, family, and colleagues. In This Newsletter: - Who Is Affected - Impact of Attack - Actions to Take - Technical Details - Recovery - Related Knowledge Base - Related Microsoft Security Bulletins - Tips for Helping Friends, Family, and Colleagues At 11:34 A.M. Pacific Time on August 11, Microsoft began investigating a worm reported by Microsoft Product Support Services (PSS). Several antivirus companies have responded and written tools to remove the Blaster worm. Who Is Affected? Users of the following products are affected: - Microsoft® Windows NT® 4.0 - Microsoft Windows® 2000 - Microsoft Windows XP - Microsoft Windows ServerT 2003 The worm was discovered August 11. Customers who had previously applied the security patch MS03-026 are protected. To determine if the worm is present on your machine, see the technical details below. Actions for Network Administrators Managers of networked computers should read the Microsoft Product Support Services (PSS) Security Response Team alert for technical guidance: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/security/virus/alerts/msblaster.asp Technical Details: This worm scans a random IP range to look for vulnerable systems on TCP port 135. The worm attempts to exploit the DCOM RPC vulnerability patched by MS03-026: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/ms03-026.asp Once the Exploit code is sent to a system, it downloads and executes the file MSBLAST.EXE from a remote system via TFTP. Once run, the worm creates the registry key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run "windows auto update" = msblast.exe I just want to say LOVE YOU SAN!! bill Symptoms of the virus: Some customers may not notice any symptoms at all. A typical symptom is the system reboots every few minutes without user input. Customers may also see: - Presence of unusual TFTP* files - Presence of the file msblast.exe in the WINDOWS SYSTEM32 directory To detect this virus, search for msblast.exe in the WINDOWS SYSTEM32 directory or download the latest antivirus software signature from your antivirus vendor and scan your machine. For additional information on recovering from this attack, please contact your preferred antivirus vendor. Recovery: Many antivirus companies have written tools to remove the known exploit associated with this particular worm. To download the removal tool from your antivirus vendor, follow the procedures outlined below. For Windows XP 1. If your computer reboots repeatedly, please unplug your network cable from the wall. 2. First, enable Internet Connection Firewall (ICF) in Windows XP: http://support.microsoft.com/?id=283673 --In Control Panel, double-click "Networking and Internet Connections", and then click "Network Connections". --Right-click the connection on which you would like to enable ICF, and then click "Properties". --On the Advanced tab, click the box to select the option to "Protect my computer or network". 3. Plug the network cable back into the wall to reconnect your computer to the Internet 4. Download the MS03-026 security patch from Microsoft and install it on your computer: Windows XP (32 bit) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2354406c-c5b6-44ac-9532-3de40f69c074&displaylang=en Windows XP (64 bit) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=1b00f5df-4a85-488f-80e3-c347adcc4df1&displaylang=en 5.Install or update your antivirus signature software and scan your computer 6.Download and run the worm removal tool from your antivirus vendor. For Windows 2000 systems, where Internet Connection Firewall (ICF) is not available, the following steps will help block the affected ports so that the system can be patched. These steps are based on a modified excerpt from the article; HOW TO: Configure TCP/IP Filtering in Windows 2000. http://support.microsoft.com/?id=309798 1. Configure TCP/IP security on Windows 2000: --Select "Network and Dial-up Connections" in Control Panel. --Right-click the interface you use to access the Internet, and then click "Properties". --In the "Components checked are used by this connection" box, click "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)", and then click "Properties". --In the Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) Properties dialog box, click "Advanced". --Click the "Options" tab. --Click "TCP/IP filtering", and then click "Properties". --Select the "Enable TCP/IP Filtering (All adapters)" check box. --There are three columns with the following labels: TCP Ports UDP Ports IP Protocols --In each column, you must select the "Permit Only" option. --Click OK. 2. Download the MS03-026 security patch for Windows 2000 from Microsoft and install it on your computer from: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8b8a846-f541-4c15-8c9f-220354449117&displaylang=en 3. Install or update your antivirus signature software and scan your computer 4. Then, download and run the worm removal tool from your antivirus vendor. For additional details on this worm from antivirus software vendors participating in the Microsoft Virus Information Alliance (VIA), please visit the following links: Network Associates: http://us.mcafee.com/virusInfo/default.asp?id=description&virus_k=100547 Trend Micro: http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_MSBLAST.A Symantec: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.blaster.worm.html Computer Associates: http://www3.ca.com/virusinfo/virus.aspx?ID=36265 For more information on Microsoft's Virus Information Alliance, please visit this link: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus/via.asp Please contact your antivirus vendor for additional details on this virus. Prevention: 1. Turn on Internet Connection Firewall (Windows XP or Windows Server 2003) or use a third-party firewall to block TCP ports 135, 139, 445 and 593; UDP port 135, 137,138; also UDP 69 (TFTP)and TCP 4444 for remote command shell. To enable the Internet Connection Firewall in Windows: http://support.microsoft.com/?id=283673 --In Control Panel, double-click "Networking and Internet Connections", and then click "Network Connections". --Right-click the connection on which you would like to enable ICF, and then click "Properties". --On the Advanced tab, click the box to select the option to "Protect my computer or network". This worm utilizes a previously announced vulnerability as part of its infection method. Because of this, customers must ensure that their computers are patched for the vulnerability that is identified in Microsoft Security Bulletin MS03-026. http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS03-026.asp. 2. Install the patch MS03-026 from the Microsoft Download Center: Windows NT 4 Server & Workstation http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2cc66f4e-217e-4fa7-bdbf-df77a0b9303f&DisplayLang=en Windows NT 4 Terminal Server Edition http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=6c0f0160-64fa-424c-a3c1-c9fad2dc65ca&DisplayLang=en Windows 2000 http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8b8a846-f541-4c15-8c9f-220354449117&displaylang=en Windows XP (32 bit) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2354406c-c5b6-44ac-9532-3de40f69c074&displaylang=en Windows XP (64 bit) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=1b00f5df-4a85-488f-80e3-c347adcc4df1&displaylang=en Windows 2003 (32 bit) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=f8e0ff3a-9f4c-4061-9009-3a212458e92e&DisplayLang=en Windows 2003 (64 bit) http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2b566973-c3f0-4ec1-995f-017e35692bc7&DisplayLang=en 3. As always, please make sure to use the latest antivirus detection from your antivirus vendor to detect new viruses and their variants. Related Knowledge Base Articles: http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=826955 Related Microsoft Security Bulletins: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS03-026.asp If you have any questions regarding this alert, please contact your Microsoft representative or 1-866-727-2338 (1-866-PCSafety) within the United States; outside of the United States please contact your local Microsoft Subsidiary. 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This document may not be distributed for profit From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 14 20:27:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (peggy barnhill) Date: Thu Aug 14 19:27:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help References: Message-ID: <008001c362ee$13d6f960$50f886ce@oemcomputer> Henry, I sent you a small package of teeth fragments today. I hope they help. Kenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Barwood" To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:06 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic characteristics > of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited > specimens of > fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, many years > ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or > otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin section for > petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are shark, ray > and crocodile teeth from > the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and species (and > hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, etc. from the > Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to compare > fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I emphasize that I > intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do not > want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or scientific > value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount to > zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. > > Henry Barwood > Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science > MSCX 312G > Department of Math and Physics > Troy State University > Troy, Alabama 36082 > hbarwood@troyst.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 00:14:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Thu Aug 14 23:14:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhound?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <200308141814.h7EIElUd011561@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <014001c36294$e2e0c8d0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <000b01c362b6$4351a560$97e1fea9@1> Message-ID: <002501c362f4$3f275370$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> my friends and 'enemies' call it my bad sense of humour ;-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "armando afonso" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 12:48 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] this is called modesty. AA ----- Original Message ----- From: frank de wit To: Cc: mindat Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > my intentions are always 'good' > and I read your analyses potential is even 'better' hahaha > I knew there was someone smarter than me in this world, there always is, > damn me > > that's exactly why I said > 'might....' in my message >>you might (might) want to say 'shut up and work' > ;-) > but I will take that back and change it into: > > 'please, if you can, make something better on the internet than Mindat.org' > or else... I'll shoot ;-) > > cheers! > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:14 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > > > > > > I tried. Didn't work. > > > > While I am sure there are good people in that system, there are a lot of > > people inputting data who have no business trying to be authoritative. > The > > reason a lot of people have a problem with it is because it posits itself > as > > an authoritative site when in fact it is not. And why should anyone work > on > > mindat? I didn't tell anyone to put it there or to put data in it; I am > not > > beholden to it. It holds no official status; and the fact that you stated > > what you stated in the way you stated it is exactly the problem with the > site. > > And by the way, somebody please tell me what an "average refractive > index" > > is, unless they are talking about the Gladstone-Dale index, in which case > that > > is what that field in the site should state. Oy. > > > > Before you tell me to shut up and work, you might consider that I have > spent > > ove $30,000 of my own time and money in the last three years contributing > to > > real research, traveling, lecturing, inventing, staying up late and night > and > > working all weekend trying to get things right, researching data, helping > > people, gathering literature, working with manufacturers on product > > improvements, helping people with patent applications, testing minerals, > going > > to classes, volunteering at museums, hosting symposia, writing letters, > > occasionally risking my life, and destroying my car in attempts to reach > > collecting areas a car is not supposed to be. So, if I may say with as > much > > humility as warranted, I think I have raised the bar for myself a bit > higher > > than contributing to an unvalidated collector-based ego website that > doesn't > > meet my standards. > > > > Frank, I am sure your intentions were good in your message, and this is > not > > personal. I suppose we can agree to disagree. But I have looked at the > > situation, looked at some of the people involved, talked to mineralogists > > about it, and my analysis stands. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Don > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 07:07:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Henry Barwood) Date: Fri Aug 15 06:07:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help In-Reply-To: <008001c362ee$13d6f960$50f886ce@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Kenny, Thanks. Henry -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of peggy barnhill Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 12:29 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help Henry, I sent you a small package of teeth fragments today. I hope they help. Kenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Barwood" To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:06 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Request for fossil help > I am working on a project that will examine the petrographic characteristics > of fibrous carbonate fluorapatite in fossil teeth. I have some limited > specimens of > fossils from the Miocene of Florida that were collected many, many years > ago. I am asking that if anyone has any teeth that are too battered or > otherwise non-collectable, could I have them to make a thin section for > petrographic analysis? Examples of what I would like to have are shark, ray > and crocodile teeth from > the Cenozoic and Mesozoic that are identified as to age and species (and > hopefully Formation); fragments of horse, rhino, mastodon, etc. from the > Cenozoic, and any material that is dinosaurian. My objective is to compare > fish, reptilian, mammal and dinosaur microstructures. I emphasize that I > intend to cut up this material and grind thin sections out of it. I do not > want anything that has any significant monetary, collectable or scientific > value to it. This is a preliminary test of a project and it may amount to > zilch. Any help you can give me would be welcome. Thanks. > > Henry Barwood > Associate Professor of Science, Earth Science > MSCX 312G > Department of Math and Physics > Troy State University > Troy, Alabama 36082 > hbarwood@troyst.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 08:31:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Fri Aug 15 07:31:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerit?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e=5D?= References: <200308141814.h7EIElUd011561@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002a01c36339$c07fea00$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with you that there are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met some people who are proud that they are contributors to sites which have an "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the "willies". These guys are nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable veterans, but the degree of knowledgeableness must increase if you're putting info out there which purports to be "authoritative". Authoritative has it origins in being an author - peer reviewed and scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second rate newsletter doesn't get you to the level required. On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets focused into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. Caveat emptor. (more or less) Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > > I tried. Didn't work. > > While I am sure there are good people in that system, there are a lot of > people inputting data who have no business trying to be authoritative. The > reason a lot of people have a problem with it is because it posits itself as > an authoritative site when in fact it is not. And why should anyone work on > mindat? I didn't tell anyone to put it there or to put data in it; I am not > beholden to it. It holds no official status; and the fact that you stated > what you stated in the way you stated it is exactly the problem with the site. > And by the way, somebody please tell me what an "average refractive index" > is, unless they are talking about the Gladstone-Dale index, in which case that > is what that field in the site should state. Oy. > > Before you tell me to shut up and work, you might consider that I have spent > ove $30,000 of my own time and money in the last three years contributing to > real research, traveling, lecturing, inventing, staying up late and night and > working all weekend trying to get things right, researching data, helping > people, gathering literature, working with manufacturers on product > improvements, helping people with patent applications, testing minerals, going > to classes, volunteering at museums, hosting symposia, writing letters, > occasionally risking my life, and destroying my car in attempts to reach > collecting areas a car is not supposed to be. So, if I may say with as much > humility as warranted, I think I have raised the bar for myself a bit higher > than contributing to an unvalidated collector-based ego website that doesn't > meet my standards. > > Frank, I am sure your intentions were good in your message, and this is not > personal. I suppose we can agree to disagree. But I have looked at the > situation, looked at some of the people involved, talked to mineralogists > about it, and my analysis stands. > > Best regards, > > Don > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 08:56:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Fri Aug 15 07:56:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite?= References: <000901c361bb$df3a1490$fb9bda3e@Auerchri> <3F3AEE07.29919E39@att.net> Message-ID: <005c01c3633d$4fdc2c10$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> One good volcano can really pump carbon dioxide into the atmosphere more than any forest fire. Haven't seen any research on whether carbonate deposition in the tropics has increased or not. There's been some thought that plants should increase their growth in response to higher carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Was shocked to hear that plants in New York City had higher growth rates due to pollution. The "year without a summer", 1816, was a good case of volcanoes influencing climate. While there was surely a lot of carbon dioxide pumped into the atmosphere, the particulates reduced global temperatures significantly. Drifting snow in northern New England on June 5, August 20, and August 29 with a killer frost on July 9 - all 1816. The decade 1811-1820 was pretty chilly - 1814 was no "picnic" though I wasn't there. The Little Ice Age occurred about 400-500 years ago. Incidentally, anyone having a chance to go to the Smithsonian would do me a favor in reading Parker Cleaveland's manuscript of his weather records for the winter 1820-1821 to find out if there was a relatively open winter utill about Christmas and if there was a big snowfall at the middle or end of December. The discovery of Mount Mica is tied to an open winter and with the discovery of tourmaline on the surface and a night snow covering up the locality until spring. (Actually, the two who discovered the tourmaline - Ezekiel Holmes (future Father of Maine Agriculture and co-founder of University of Maine) and his party animal buddy Augustus Hamlin (future real estate agent and politician) were on Christmas break holiday from Brown University and had to go back to school before the thaw.) Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Phosphorrößlerite > Christian Auer wrote: > > > > I have few favourite mines that I`m collecting. One is the Middle Age > > gold-scheelite mine of Schellgaden in Salzburg, Austria. > > Its type locality of the species phosphorrößlerite collected in remote areas > > of the 45km mine. > > Now I saw that its not an accepted species any more! > > Does anybody know why???? > > > Maybe the es-szet drove people insane? Or . . . > > From the Aleph Enterprises web site: > > Phosphorrösslerite . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . Mg(PO3OH)*7H2O > > However, Fleischer's (1999) has this: > > MgHPO4*7H2O > > The 2001 supplement to Fleischer's doesn't mention that it needs to be > removed. > > The Handbook of Mineralogy (2000) has this: > > Mg(PO3OH)*7H2O > > It also says this (Volume IV, page 461): > > " . . . Soluble in H2O; alters to newberyite on exposure." The cell > data and powder data are derived from synthetic analogues. > > " . . . Occurence: In cold (10 deg. C) wet muck in an abandoned mine. > [Chris, is this what you do in your spare time?] > > " . . . Distribution: From the Stüblbau works, Schellgaden, Austria." > > Why do you think it is discredited? Do you have the discrediting > article? If it was discredited in the last year or two, I could only > imagine it is because a) it alters to newberyite or 2) it was > reclassified as anthropogenic, although one would imagine that very > criteria would discredit quite a number of minerals if some were > examined again. > > Don > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 09:27:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jolyon Ralph) Date: Fri Aug 15 08:27:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosp=?ISO-8859-1?B?aG9ycvbfbGVyaXRlXQ==?= Message-ID: <1060960301.3f3cf82dc3b7f@mail.mways.co.uk> Hi All, Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded mindat.org as an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One unfortunate side effect of the success of the site is that people have started to believe that the site has complete and accurate information on everything. It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the site, and by its very nature it is a site that can never be complete. I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, totally valid, as the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have not had the time to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a good conversation with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his criticisms and input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows in the right directions for the future. The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making and not due to some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I wrote that managed to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This weekend I'll go through and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In the meantime, the Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a valid mineral species. And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not a valid species, please double-check with another reference source before relying on that information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! The data is getting better every day, but it's far from perfect. Regards, Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster Quoting Van : > Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with you that there > are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met some people > who are proud that they are contributors to sites which have an > "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the "willies". These guys are > nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable veterans, but the degree > of knowledgeableness must increase if you're putting info out there which > purports to be "authoritative". Authoritative has it origins in being an > author - peer reviewed and scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second > rate newsletter doesn't get you to the level required. > > On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets focused > into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. > > Caveat emptor. (more or less) > > Van > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 09:38:06 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Fri Aug 15 08:38:06 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= In-Reply-To: <1060960301.3f3cf82dc3b7f@mail.mways.co.uk> Message-ID: <003d01c36343$18602a60$6601a8c0@moose> This discussion brings to mind the new phenomena of "wikis" on the Internet. These are sites that are totally user modifiable. The best example is the "Wikipedia" at: http://www.wikipedia.org/ And, more relevant: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineralogy The entries are entered by ANYONE and ANYONE can modify them. Wikis are ever-evolving. And, most definetly, "buyer beware" when looking at 'em. GcB Catspaw-Minerals http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of "MasMils/PLUS" Mine Location CD-ROM > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jolyon Ralph > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:12 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: > Phosphorrößlerite] > > > Hi All, > > Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded > mindat.org as > an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One > unfortunate side .... From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 10:11:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jolyon Ralph) Date: Fri Aug 15 09:11:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: P=?ISO-8859-1?B?aG9zcGhvcnL232xlcml0ZV0=?= In-Reply-To: <003d01c36343$18602a60$6601a8c0@moose> References: <003d01c36343$18602a60$6601a8c0@moose> Message-ID: <1060962904.3f3d0258cfebe@mail.mways.co.uk> > This discussion brings to mind the new phenomena of "wikis" on the > Internet. These are sites that are totally user modifiable. The best > example is the "Wikipedia" at: I guess the difference with mindat.org is that it is supposed to have a level of moderation and peer review. This process isn't perfect at the moment and as a result of this I'm being very careful about allowing new contributors in at the moment. But the basic rule on mindat is that when you add data it has to be vetted by someone with higher access before it can be made live. The problem we have at the moment is making sure these changes are approved by people with suitable knowledge of a particular area - and that's a programming issue I am working on. Jolyon - www.mindat.org From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 10:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Italian Minerals) Date: Fri Aug 15 09:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] ROCKS from Italy - visit us ! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20030815183341.00e62568@popmail.libero.it> If you have time and interest to see what is available from Italy, go to: http://www.italianminerals.com/ A lot of pages are dedicated to italian minerals: fluorite, tinzenite, brookite, tourmaline, beryl, sulfur, anglesite, phosgenite, calcite, hemimorphite, garnets, botriogen, celestite and more ! There are also a lot of worldwide specimens: benitoite, fluorite, red beryls, beryls, elbaite, gypsum, tourmaline, garnets, quartz, sphalerite, fluorite, atacamite, rutile, magnetite, gold, rhodocrosite, and more !! Visit us, we will be pleased to have you surfing our website ! ItalianMinerals.com ============================= Italian Minerals http://www.italianminerals.com quality minerals from Italy and worldwide ============================= From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 11:31:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (KATHY FRONK) Date: Fri Aug 15 10:31:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Old rockhound selling-out used equipment & specimens Message-ID: I am selling out my old rockhounding stuff. I have a 14 inch saw, 20 inch flat lap, 10 inch trim saw, 4 wheel sander/grinder set, Pixie, Vibra-sonic, mini-sonic, Covington tumbler, Covington Facetor, Covington 12 inch flat lap, 2 motors, display cases, grits, polishes, Agates, thunder eggs, petrified wood, slabs of all sorts, geodes, peridot, minerals, Rock and Gem magazines, and some jade and more. I can send anyone a complete list- just call or write me. Thanks- Denny Fiser, 302 W. Hilton, Marengo, Iowa, 52304. (319) 642-5633 evenings and weekends _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 13:20:28 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Williams) Date: Fri Aug 15 12:20:28 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <1060960301.3f3cf82dc3b7f@mail.mways.co.uk> Message-ID: <002201c3635c$ec95fee0$4cd04fd1@Williams> Now this is one of the most humble responses that I have ever seen! Maybe that is why I like your site so much, even though I do compare information with others. This response isn't really about ME, but, should be about US. Please take it that way! As You, Don, and Van, among others have pointed out every so often, it is important to be able to validate Your information. You can't go to just one site or source and completly rely on it for all the information that you want. I have books on Minerals resources for various states-some are created and updated by the States themselves that lack information or have erroneous information based upon what someone has told them. In the old days,most of it was validated by Real Experts--at that time. Many of the names have been changed and more variations have become valid--or invalid and more research has been done that results in changes.The early experts have since gone somewhere else to pursue their wonderfull hobby and been replaced by people like US. Now I am not as knowledgeable as many of you who request information and respond to requests on a lot of different subjects or minerals and locations,but, there are minerals and locations that I am certainly much more knowledgeable than 95% of the readers of this site because I have collected there many, many times and I study what I have collected to ascertain just what it is, what it could be and most important, what is with it and why something else isn't. I belong to a Micromineral study group and have "peers" that I can show what I have found, what I think it is, and where I found it, and have the resources available to optically determine what it probably is--SEM is not available unless it is determined to be unknown. This type of "club"?, should be a Must for serious "amateur minerologists" or professionals. It is truly amazing and beautiful as to what can be seen under the scope! I am currently (for the last 2 months) going through each of the 600+ different minerals that I have in my collection and re-identifying them, updating the Chemical Composition and reviewing the source, locations, and date collected, to make sure what I really do have and then putting that information , along with more information, into an Excel spreadsheet so that when I leave this earth, my family will know what I have and all the information that someone else would want to know about them. I am only on #214. I am using every available source at my disposal and comparing the data. The early minerals and Elements were collected in the early 50"s when I was still a kid growing up in Utah and have now had more asthetic specimens added as sub-groups to the original number, based upon localities and wheter they are Micromounts or just Micro's--Oh, the memories!. Interestingly, many of what I collected in the late 60's through my college Geology field trips really aren't what the professors said they were, either through name and varietal changes or just plain "the Professor was wrong and I didn't know any better,. Fortunately, now I do. Sorry this is so long, it wasn't intended to be that way,but, if I can help anyone else that is trying to figure out what to do and is overwhelmed when they look at what they have, then it is worth it! Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jolyon Ralph" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > Hi All, > > Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded mindat.org as > an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One unfortunate side > effect of the success of the site is that people have started to believe that > the site has complete and accurate information on everything. > > It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the site, and by its > very nature it is a site that can never be complete. > > I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, totally valid, as > the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have not had the time > to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a good conversation > with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his criticisms and > input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows in the right > directions for the future. > > The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making and not due to > some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I wrote that managed > to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This weekend I'll go through > and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In the meantime, the > Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a valid mineral > species. > > And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not a valid species, > please double-check with another reference source before relying on that > information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! The data is getting > better every day, but it's far from perfect. > > Regards, > > Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster > > Quoting Van : > > > Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with you that there > > are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met some people > > who are proud that they are contributors to sites which have an > > "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the "willies". These guys are > > nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable veterans, but the degree > > of knowledgeableness must increase if you're putting info out there which > > purports to be "authoritative". Authoritative has it origins in being an > > author - peer reviewed and scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second > > rate newsletter doesn't get you to the level required. > > > > On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets focused > > into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. > > > > Caveat emptor. (more or less) > > > > Van > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 13:57:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Fri Aug 15 12:57:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] easier MS-Blaster virus prevention Message-ID: <20030815195613.71157.qmail@web41015.mail.yahoo.com> Hi: There may be an easier way to protect your machines from the MS Blaster Virus/worm. This worm program uses a service called DCOM to take control of your computer. DCOM is a method Miocrosoft invented for one computer to control and execute code on another computer. They install it on all the computers which run MS operating systems, and they turn it on on all those computers, even if you don't need it running. DCOM is sometimes used by complex custom systems running on well-integrated networks. The internet is NOT a well-integrated network, and DCOM isn't important for most home computer users on the internet. To turn off DCOM services, press Start, Run, and type DCOMCNFG and press OK. You may get an error message here, I did and just pressed the no button twice to continue. You wind up at the DCOM Configuration administrator window. On the front TAB or Page you will see a list of all the programs on your machine that can use DCOM. Click on the Default Properties TAB. At the top there's a click box for enabling DCOM on your computer. UNCheck this box, and click Apply, OK. You're done. DCOM no longer runs on your machine, and you are no longer threatened by the MicroSoft Blaster worm! Or any virus that uses this sub-system to work. If you need to later, you can re-enable DCOM the same way you turned it off, and then turn it back off when you're through using it. I am not a MS Certified Network Engineer, but this seems really easy to me... JR --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 14:58:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (relic hunter) Date: Fri Aug 15 13:58:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Old rockhound selling-out used equipment & specimens Message-ID: I'm very interested . please send me a list of prices ect... Craig http://www.Dirtyrockhounds.com _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 15:20:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Fri Aug 15 14:20:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhound?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <1060960301.3f3cf82dc3b7f@mail.mways.co.uk> <002201c3635c$ec95fee0$4cd04fd1@Williams> Message-ID: <000d01c36372$f5562170$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Good discussion. As I may have said before, I can remember thinking that some smart alec high school student was kidding me when he said there was a mineral called quartz. It didn't end in 'ite! Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Williams" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 2:41 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > Now this is one of the most humble responses that I have ever seen! Maybe > that is why I like your site so much, even though I do compare information > with others. This response isn't really about ME, but, should be about US. > Please take it that way! > > As You, Don, and Van, among others have pointed out every so often, it is > important to be able to validate Your information. You can't go to just one > site or source and completly rely on it for all the information that you > want. I have books on Minerals resources for various states-some are created > and updated by the States themselves that lack information or have erroneous > information based upon what someone has told them. In the old days,most of > it was validated by Real Experts--at that time. Many of the names have been > changed and more variations have become valid--or invalid and more research > has been done that results in changes.The early experts have since gone > somewhere else to pursue their wonderfull hobby and been replaced by people > like US. Now I am not as knowledgeable as many of you who request > information and respond to requests on a lot of different subjects or > minerals and locations,but, there are minerals and locations that I am > certainly much more knowledgeable than 95% of the readers of this site > because I have collected there many, many times and I study what I have > collected to ascertain just what it is, what it could be and most > important, what is with it and why something else isn't. > > I belong to a Micromineral study group and have "peers" that I can show what > I have found, what I think it is, and where I found it, and have the > resources available to optically determine what it probably is--SEM is not > available unless it is determined to be unknown. This type of "club"?, > should be a Must for serious "amateur minerologists" or professionals. It is > truly amazing and beautiful as to what can be seen under the scope! > > I am currently (for the last 2 months) going through each of the 600+ > different minerals that I have in my collection and re-identifying them, > updating the Chemical Composition and reviewing the source, locations, and > date collected, to make sure what I really do have and then putting that > information , along with more information, into an Excel spreadsheet so that > when I leave this earth, my family will know what I have and all the > information that someone else would want to know about them. I am only on > #214. I am using every available source at my disposal and comparing the > data. The early minerals and Elements were collected in the early 50"s when > I was still a kid growing up in Utah and have now had more asthetic > specimens added as sub-groups to the original number, based upon localities > and wheter they are Micromounts or just Micro's--Oh, the memories!. > Interestingly, many of what I collected in the late 60's through my college > Geology field trips really aren't what the professors said they were, either > through name and varietal changes or just plain "the Professor was wrong and > I didn't know any better,. Fortunately, now I do. > > Sorry this is so long, it wasn't intended to be that way,but, if I can help > anyone else that is trying to figure out what to do and is overwhelmed when > they look at what they have, then it is worth it! > > Jim > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jolyon Ralph" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 8:11 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > > > > Hi All, > > > > Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded mindat.org as > > an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One unfortunate side > > effect of the success of the site is that people have started to believe > that > > the site has complete and accurate information on everything. > > > > It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the site, and by > its > > very nature it is a site that can never be complete. > > > > I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, totally valid, > as > > the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have not had the > time > > to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a good > conversation > > with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his criticisms > and > > input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows in the right > > directions for the future. > > > > The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making and not due > to > > some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I wrote that > managed > > to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This weekend I'll go > through > > and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In the meantime, > the > > Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a valid > mineral > > species. > > > > And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not a valid > species, > > please double-check with another reference source before relying on that > > information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! The data is > getting > > better every day, but it's far from perfect. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster > > > > Quoting Van : > > > > > Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with you that > there > > > are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met some > people > > > who are proud that they are contributors to sites which have an > > > "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the "willies". These guys > are > > > nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable veterans, but the > degree > > > of knowledgeableness must increase if you're putting info out there > which > > > purports to be "authoritative". Authoritative has it origins in being an > > > author - peer reviewed and scrutinized. A few measly articles in a > second > > > rate newsletter doesn't get you to the level required. > > > > > > On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets > focused > > > into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. > > > > > > Caveat emptor. (more or less) > > > > > > Van > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 16:42:09 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jolyon Ralph) Date: Fri Aug 15 15:42:09 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] easier MS-Blaster virus prevention In-Reply-To: <20030815195613.71157.qmail@web41015.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030815195613.71157.qmail@web41015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1060986233.3f3d5d7913efc@mail.mways.co.uk> Quoting "J. R. Hodel" : > Hi: > > There may be an easier way to protect your machines from the MS Blaster > Virus/worm. This advice is good - the DCOM system is more trouble than it is worth in my opinion, however the instructions given aren't accurate for Windows XP, as they have changed the way that DCOMCNFG works. However, I would strongly advise people to not rely on just disabling something like this, as it's quite possible that something else (even a microsoft update) may re-enable it without you knowing. I STRONGLY recommend that everyone uses the 'Windows Update' feature to enable automatic download and installation of security updates from Microsoft - once it's set up you won't have to worry about downloading security fixes any more. Finally, use a firewall. Windows XP has one built in (click the 'firewall this connection' tab in the advanced properties for your network/ISP connection), otherwise you can download home firewall software from places such as www.zonelabs.com Regards Jolyon - who without wanting to sound superior is a MS qualified network technician ;-) From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 16:43:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Joe Mulvey) Date: Fri Aug 15 15:43:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] re: Trip Report: Quartz in South Lyndeborough, NH Message-ID: <20030815224254.15641.qmail@web20009.mail.yahoo.com> Hi List! In digest it's a little harder to reply to messages because you can't always see the private e-mail of the sender. For instance, the person selling the rock hound stuff, Kathy Fronk or Denny Fiser - one can only reply to the list or send snail mail! I appreciate the fact that many enjoyed my S. Lyndeborough, NH trip report. I have learned that the unknown dark red crystals I saw in the quarry are jasper. Have not yet purchased muriatic or oxalic acid from the pool place or paint store but will try this *outside* away from the kids & pets! I was also thinking of trying a dip in CLR - the calcium, lime & rust remover (for indoor use) that Paul Harvey raves about. Mr. Nance asked for advice on other places to visit when flying in to Manchester, NH on the way to Poland Mining Camps. I'm sorry, Jim, but I can't recommend anything from experience because I've only been to a few places so far. However, that being said, I do have a large list of locations to visit. For a trip from Manchester, NH to Poland, ME, you may want to consider visiting Bethel, ME. The Songo Pond area has many mines, most are available to us, some, prob. the better one, for a fee. Call Songo Pond Gems at 207-824-3898. (No financial interest, but I'd love to hear how you do if you go!) Quote from the web: "Permission to collect must be obtained from and a collecting fee paid to Rodney Kimball, Box 6, West Bethel, ME 04217. Telephone (207) 836-3945. Mr. Kimball has an antique shop on the north side of Route 2 at the west end of the town of West Bethel. He is usually there on weekends but it is best to call ahead." Full text at http://www.nb.net/~downs/sites/me.htm Also, the White Mtns seem to have many mineral collecting opportunities as well. The top of Sugarloaf, a ski area, sounds verrry interesting! Mr. Nance, please contact me off list if you have a layover day, maybe we could coordinate a day trip somewhere. I have the standard hammers, chisels, glasses, gloves and can easily carry my weight up a mountain! 8-) ( bassmeister_2000@yahoo.com ) Finally, try Perham's Rock Shop in West Paris, ME at rts 26 & 219. Sounds like they have extensive info on the local area. Of course, I have a feeling that none of this will compare to PMC! I came back from Syracuse, NY late Sunday. On advice from this group, I visited the Herkimer, NY area. What a blast! I did not enter the mine area. My beautiful wife & I visited the gift shop. We perused, talked a lot, she bought some minor items... I think she's very interested. We intend to return for a camping trip next summer. Happily, I love to fish for trout and West Canada Creek is across the street. We visited the creek as well, and loaded up the car with a dozen head-sized boulders full of vuggy looking pockets. I have a few very nice crystals - genuine Herkimer Diamonds, as the result of opening these rocks. Looking forward to getting back real soon! I think there are a lot of nice crystals of calcite or dolomite in there. On the way home from work today, I work in MA, I have been watching the Route 3 construction for over a year. Finally had to pull the car over and take a look at an area that looked so interesting. From the road at 65 mph, it looked like they blasted out a vein of rose quartz. Up close it turned out to be what I think, is biotite - the black mica, in very good sized books attached to solid pieces of slamon pink feldspar. Beautiful colors! I have a 1/2 dozne nice pieces for the collection and several large pieces in the garden bordering ur pool. Whole family loves it! Anybody on the list interested in some? So, thanks again for all the advice! It is much appreciated. If I missed a reply to you, I am very sorry I overlooked it. If you ask again, I promise to reply asap! Regards, Apologies for no spell czech, Joe ===== Joe Mulvey Nashua, NH -- USA http://home.attbi.com/~mgag1 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 16:58:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Fri Aug 15 15:58:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] easier MS-Blaster virus prevention In-Reply-To: <1060986233.3f3d5d7913efc@mail.mways.co.uk> Message-ID: simpler solution is to buy a linux box and run lindows or better yet,=20 macintosh computers are not unaffected - and yes they run word, excel,=20= etc. Mine has been up without restart for over 30 days and nary a=20 crash yet this year KM On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 03:23 PM, Jolyon Ralph wrote: > This advice is good - the DCOM system is more trouble than it is worth=20= > in my > opinion, however the instructions given aren't accurate for Windows=20 > XP, as > they have changed the way that DCOMCNFG works. There is no 'self' and no 'other'.=A0 There is no 'wrong desire', no=20 'anger', no 'hatred', no 'love, no ' victory, no 'failure'.=A0 Only=20 renounce the error or conceptual thought-processes and your nature=20 will exhibit its pristine purity ~ for this alone is the way to attain=20= enlightenment. ~Huang Po, in Wan Ling Record 24 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 17:48:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Aug 15 16:48:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: Message-ID: <3F3D711E.40E0@Tomaszewski.net> William S. Cordua wrote: > > Hi John, > Hard questions! > > >Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness scale? > > Hardness in mineral i.d. refers to how easily something is abraded or > scratched. I don't see how you can abrade water, any more than you can > scratch air. Things get tricky when liquids become thick and stiff. > Obsidian is a good example of a very very stiff liquid that is scratchable, > with a Mohs' hardness of between 5 and 6. > > > >Does this change if the water becomes crystalline, say as a snowflake? > > Yes. Ice is a perfectly good mineral, and is described in the Encyclopedia > of Minerals and Dana's. It's hardness is 1.5 on the Mohs' Scale, so you can > scratch it with your fingernail (2.5). Brrr. > > Welcome back Dr. Bill! I would have responded to this sooner, but I was on vacation. I assume this is talking about 'normal' ice instead of the more unusual varieties (Ice-II thru VII) that form under pressure. Is cubic structured 'normal' ice (Ice-Ic) harder than the more common hexagonal (Ice-Ih) variety? From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 18:16:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Aug 15 17:16:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard weight dropped from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with decreasing temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be constant for each phase of ice. The 'hardness' of snow is more a measure of how completely it is bonded to other particles, or a measure of how completely is is frozen (i.e., less water phase content), than its resistance to scratching, which is based on molecular arrangement. Van wrote: > > Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While ice may have a > hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice dramatically > increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. That's why you can tell the > coldness of a winter's day by the sound of such hard grains crunching > together. Just like walking on quartz sand. > > Van > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > > > In a message dated 8/4/2003 2:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, j& > > gcornish@tenforward.com writes: > > > > > > > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the Mohs hardness > > > scale? > > > > Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. > > > > John Betts > > http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 18:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Aug 15 17:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] easier MS-Blaster virus prevention In-Reply-To: <20030815195613.71157.qmail@web41015.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The DCOM work-around doesn't work on certain Win 2000 systems using the 'gold' version and SP1 and SP2. You really should just install the correct patch, it takes about 2 minutes to do it and it was issued 6 weeks ago. There have been multiple warnings about the problem too. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of J. R. Hodel > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 14:56 > To: Rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] easier MS-Blaster virus prevention > > > Hi: > > There may be an easier way to protect your machines from the MS > Blaster Virus/worm. This worm program uses a service called DCOM > to take control of your computer. DCOM is a method Miocrosoft > invented for one computer to control and execute code on another > computer. They install it on all the computers which run MS > operating systems, and they turn it on on all those computers, > even if you don't need it running. > > DCOM is sometimes used by complex custom systems running on > well-integrated networks. The internet is NOT a well-integrated > network, and DCOM isn't important for most home computer users on > the internet. > > To turn off DCOM services, press Start, Run, and type DCOMCNFG > and press OK. You may get an error message here, I did and just > pressed the no button twice to continue. > > You wind up at the DCOM Configuration administrator window. On > the front TAB or Page you will see a list of all the programs on > your machine that can use DCOM. Click on the Default Properties > TAB. At the top there's a click box for enabling DCOM on your > computer. UNCheck this box, and click Apply, OK. You're done. > DCOM no longer runs on your machine, and you are no longer > threatened by the MicroSoft Blaster worm! Or any virus that uses > this sub-system to work. > > If you need to later, you can re-enable DCOM the same way you > turned it off, and then turn it back off when you're through > using it. I am not a MS Certified Network Engineer, but this > seems really easy to me... > > JR > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 18:30:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Aug 15 17:30:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <1cd.ec07841.2c618c00@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F3D7AE6.34D9@Tomaszewski.net> EDewindtro@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/5/03 5:16:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jbryankramer@msn.com writes: > > > > > Ice has a lot of different phases all the way up to Ice(IX) and maybe > > higher. > > Ice-nine?!?! I thought that was the room-temperature solid form that brought > about the end of the world in Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle. Don't tell me it's > for real! > > Ed The ice properties in the story don't match the physics, which came later. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 18:54:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Aug 15 17:54:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Isn't there some 'rule of thumb' that says when a material is within 80% of its melting point then it's properties become more variable. Ice that we normally see falls within that range unless you are up at Prudhoe Bay or down at Little America. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, > or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard weight dropped > from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with decreasing > temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be > constant for each phase of ice. The 'hardness' of snow is more a measure > of how completely it is bonded to other particles, or a measure of how > completely is is frozen (i.e., less water phase content), than its > resistance to scratching, which is based on molecular arrangement. > > > > Van wrote: > > > > Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While > ice may have a > > hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice > dramatically > > increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. That's why you > can tell the > > coldness of a winter's day by the sound of such hard grains crunching > > together. Just like walking on quartz sand. > > > > Van > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 6:29 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > > > > > In a message dated 8/4/2003 2:42:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, j& > > > gcornish@tenforward.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the > Mohs hardness > > > > scale? > > > > > > Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. > > > > > > John Betts > > > http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 19:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Faceter01) Date: Fri Aug 15 18:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite Question Message-ID: Hi, Just a fast question about Pyrite. I bought two pieces which had = triangular crystal formation and just wanted to know if these were = common pieces. They are from Peru and didn't cost very much. Although they are the wrong color, they look just like tetrahedrite or = carrollite crystals. Thanks, Ron --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 19:20:08 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Aug 15 18:20:08 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ice geology (was Questions) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030815153056.02388d60@mail.aloha.net> Ice is a structural mineral that constitutes the surfaces of the moons of the outer planets. The temperature is so low that the lifetime of ice against evaporation is longer than the age of the solar system. On at least two moons of Jupiter, the surface appears to have been shaped by ice tectonics. Studying the moons of the outer solar system is like studying geology in ice. Aloha, Bill >Isn't there some 'rule of thumb' that says when a material is within 80% of >its melting point then it's properties become more variable. Ice that we >normally see falls within that range unless you are up at Prudhoe Bay or >down at Little America. > >Bryan > > > > > The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, > > or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard weight dropped > > from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with decreasing > > temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be > > constant for each phase of ice. The 'hardness' of snow is more a measure > > of how completely it is bonded to other particles, or a measure of how > > completely is is frozen (i.e., less water phase content), than its > > resistance to scratching, which is based on molecular arrangement. > > > > Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While > > ice may have a > > > hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice > > dramatically > > > increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. That's why you > > can tell the > > > coldness of a winter's day by the sound of such hard grains crunching > > > together. Just like walking on quartz sand. > > > > > > Van > > > > > > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the > > Mohs hardness > > > > > scale? > > > > > > > > Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. > > > > > > > > John Betts > > > > http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 19:32:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Aug 15 18:32:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <3F3D89BA.A45D128E@att.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, > or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard weight dropped > from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with decreasing > temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be > constant for each phase of ice. I am asking this out of curiousity and as a learning experience, not out of dispute. The question: wouldn't hardness also relate to crystal structure, which relates to bond type and strength? The more I learn about crystallography and crystal chemistry, the more I see that these might be related (1). Isn't the classic example of the increasing hardness of carbon/graphite/diamond applicable here as well? I have heard and read that multiple minerals have varying Moh's hardness based upon the direction in which you scratch; I think kyanite is often used as an example of this phenomenon. Why would it not apply to polytypes of water? Don (1) I love college-level chemistry and crystallography books. To sum up what they say--with tongue firmly in cheek--we find this: "Forget what you learned in high school, forget the Bohr model and neat orbits. The electron cloud is a nebulous entity that does and does not exist in Newtonian time and space and can only be truly understood by three or four people, and the rest of us must perceive the electron cloud phenomenon in an imperfect model that nonetheless is workable for the majority of chemists and mineralogists. Forget ball and spoke models as well, since the bonds formed by atoms would look nothing like the drawings in any book if you could see them, which you never could since atoms are smaller than the smallest wavelength of visible light." That's nice. Of course I don't think there are stand-up comedy clubs for physicists, so the preceding observation bears little utility except to remind us of the awesome complexity of our universe. The more I learn, the less I know, and the more inspired I am by the intricacy of it all. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 19:34:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Aug 15 18:34:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ice geology (was Questions) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030815153056.02388d60@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: Hal Clement, the sf author, had quite a bit to say about the other phases of ice in some of his books set in exotic environments. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > Ice is a structural mineral that constitutes the surfaces of the moons of > the outer planets. The temperature is so low that the lifetime of ice > against evaporation is longer than the age of the solar system. On at > least two moons of Jupiter, the surface appears to have been > shaped by ice > tectonics. Studying the moons of the outer solar system is like studying > geology in ice. > > Aloha, Bill > > > > >Isn't there some 'rule of thumb' that says when a material is > within 80% of > >its melting point then it's properties become more variable. Ice that we > >normally see falls within that range unless you are up at Prudhoe Bay or > >down at Little America. > > > >Bryan > > > > > > > > The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, > > > or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard > weight dropped > > > from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with > decreasing > > > temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be > > > constant for each phase of ice. The 'hardness' of snow is > more a measure > > > of how completely it is bonded to other particles, or a measure of how > > > completely is is frozen (i.e., less water phase content), than its > > > resistance to scratching, which is based on molecular arrangement. > > > > > > Just a bit of interesting trivia about Ice's hardness. While > > > ice may have a > > > > hardness of just 1.5 (Mohs) near its melting temperature, Ice > > > dramatically > > > > increases to hardness 7 (Mohs) by -40 degrees C. That's why you > > > can tell the > > > > coldness of a winter's day by the sound of such hard grains > crunching > > > > together. Just like walking on quartz sand. > > > > > > > > Van > > > > > > > > Does water have a hardness, and does this relate to the > > > Mohs hardness > > > > > > scale? > > > > > > > > > > Ice is 1.5 hardness on Moh's scale. > > > > > > > > > > John Betts > > > > > http://www.johnbetts-fineminerals.com > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 19:44:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Aug 15 18:44:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] polytypes, polymorphs? Message-ID: <3F3D8C65.4748B7D5@att.net> Argh. I replied to Kreigh's post titled "Questions..." and I wrote "polytypes" when I meant to write "polymorphs." Not the same thing. I realized my mistake just after I hit "Enter" so I am correcting it now. However, this raises a significant and related question about one of my favorite topics, terminology. One sometimes reads or hears a phrase such as "calcite is a polymorph of aragonite" or "calcite and aragonite are polymorphs." Given the root of the Greek word, which means "many forms," shouldn't the correct phrasing be "calcite and aragonite are polymorphs of calcium carbonate"? Thanks, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 19:54:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Aug 15 18:54:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Halogens or hoax? Message-ID: <3F3D8EAC.4E47A006@att.net> Well, maybe not a hoax, but as I was working with yet another "quartz halogen" lamp, I really began to question the meaning of the term. Looking carefully at the contents of the lamp, I see no liquids or solids (besides the filament), so that would rule out elemental bromine or iodine--unless they are in such small quantities that I don't see them. Let us pray there is no astatine floating around either. That leaves fluorine and chlorine, and I need not describe the inherent problems with those. A web search yielded plenty of info, but none of the search strings I tried yielded the magic formula. Might the active ingredient be a halogenated compound? Or has there simply been some misappropriation of the term? Thanks, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 20:14:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Aug 15 19:14:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Halogens or hoax? In-Reply-To: <3F3D8EAC.4E47A006@att.net> Message-ID: The halogens are present as a gas and allows the evaporated atoms from the filiment to be redeposited on the filament thus extending the life of the lamps: "What materials are used in halogen lamps? There are two kinds of bulbs used in halogen lamps: transparent and translucent quartz bulbs. Materials inside the halogen lamp include tungsten filament, molybdenum foil, and filling gases consisting of a combination of Nitrogen (N2), Argon (AR), Krypton (Kr) and a small amount of halogen gas made up of iodine (I), bromine (Br), chlorine (Cl), and fluorine (F). The base of the lamp is usually made of steatite or heat-resistant metal." Lots of other info on this site about the lamps: http://www.ushio.com/faq.htm Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Well, maybe not a hoax, but as I was working with yet another "quartz > halogen" lamp, I really began to question the meaning of the term. > Looking carefully at the contents of the lamp, I see no liquids or > solids (besides the filament), so that would rule out elemental bromine > or iodine--unless they are in such small quantities that I don't see > them. Let us pray there is no astatine floating around either. That > leaves fluorine and chlorine, and I need not describe the inherent > problems with those. A web search yielded plenty of info, but none of > the search strings I tried yielded the magic formula. Might the active > ingredient be a halogenated compound? Or has there simply been some > misappropriation of the term? > > Thanks, > > Don > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 20:25:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Aug 15 19:25:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Halogens or hoax? References: Message-ID: <3F3D9611.7D422D5D@att.net> J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > The halogens are present as a gas and allows the evaporated atoms from the > filiment to be redeposited on the filament thus extending the life of the > lamps: Wow!!! Excellent. Thanks. So they really are in there. I like it. On a related note, I did find the home page of a gentleman who made a "periodic table" literally made from wood, and in the surface are blocks cut into squares, and the whole thing looks like a chart of the periodic table. Very very clever. He has quite a number of native elements to fill the hollow spaces carved under every square, and I was wondering how he accomplished that. As one reads his page in depth, one finds that he used a lot of commercial products to fill the needs of the more exotic elements. I bet he has a halogen lamp in there somewhere. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 15 20:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Aug 15 19:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> <3F3D89BA.A45D128E@att.net> Message-ID: <3F3D9AEE.40B6@Tomaszewski.net> I think part of the confusion here is dealing with "hardness" as defined by two different 'sciences'. Glaciology is the study of snow and glaciers (ice, etc) and it uses a different definition of hardness for snow and ice than does Geology and Mineralogy. We have to be careful not to confuse the two terms that use the same word. On the 'surface' of the Earth the pressure/temperature ranges only allow for one phase of ice (but two different crystal arrangements, hexagonal and cubic), but we do get some other choices in the rest of the solar system. However, I think you are correct in drawing both definitions of hardness to bond type and strength. Glaciology is primarily concerned with the bonds between different crystals, and Geology is more concerned with the bonds within a single crystal, at least as it relates to "hardness". As you mentioned, (Geology) hardness is often different depending on the orientation of the scratch on the crystal formation; calcite can be scratched on the crystal base with a fingernail, but not on its rhombohedron cleavage faces. I suspect ice may also have some variation from orientation too, but I have not been able to find any data that differentiates ice-Ih and ice-Ic, without bringing in crystal direction to further confuse the issue. I simply use the accepted value of 1 1/2 Mohs for ice for all 'normal' flavors. You ask a good question (with interesting implications) and I had to do some digging to give what I hope is a helpful answer; I hope someone on the list can bring more light to the subject -- but I suspect we have another good candidate for a grad student looking for a thesis topic. Don H wrote: > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, > > or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard weight dropped > > from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with decreasing > > temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be > > constant for each phase of ice. > > I am asking this out of curiousity and as a learning experience, not out > of dispute. The question: wouldn't hardness also relate to crystal > structure, which relates to bond type and strength? The more I learn > about crystallography and crystal chemistry, the more I see that these > might be related (1). Isn't the classic example of the increasing > hardness of carbon/graphite/diamond applicable here as well? I have > heard and read that multiple minerals have varying Moh's hardness based > upon the direction in which you scratch; I think kyanite is often used > as an example of this phenomenon. Why would it not apply to polytypes > of water? > > Don > > (1) I love college-level chemistry and crystallography books. To sum > up what they say--with tongue firmly in cheek--we find this: "Forget > what you learned in high school, forget the Bohr model and neat orbits. > The electron cloud is a nebulous entity that does and does not exist in > Newtonian time and space and can only be truly understood by three or > four people, and the rest of us must perceive the electron cloud > phenomenon in an imperfect model that nonetheless is workable for the > majority of chemists and mineralogists. Forget ball and spoke models as > well, since the bonds formed by atoms would look nothing like the > drawings in any book if you could see them, which you never could since > atoms are smaller than the smallest wavelength of visible light." > That's nice. Of course I don't think there are stand-up comedy clubs > for physicists, so the preceding observation bears little utility except > to remind us of the awesome complexity of our universe. The more I > learn, the less I know, and the more inspired I am by the intricacy of > it all. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 05:55:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Aug 16 04:55:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> <3F3D89BA.A45D128E@att.net> <3F3D9AEE.40B6@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <3F3E1B8F.CE8B6F40@att.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > but I suspect we have > another good candidate for a grad student looking for a thesis topic. Let me jump right on that! I can see that in American Mineralogist: "Moh's Hardness Determinations for Low-Temperature, Standard-Pressure Polymorphs of H2O," or words to that effect. So how do you do a powder pattern or single crystal diffraction on water? If there is a cryogenic version of each of these instruments then I will have seen everything. Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 07:22:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 16 06:22:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] cool or hot minerals References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> <3F3D89BA.A45D128E@att.net> <3F3D9AEE.40B6@Tomaszewski.net> <3F3E1B8F.CE8B6F40@att.net> Message-ID: <000701c363f9$3c119e60$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> They (physicists, mineralogists, and others) have solved crystal structures over a wide temperature range from way below freezing to way up to a temperature where you wonder why the mineral didn't melt. Requires a little bit of ingenuity and a dedicated grad student/slave. Sometimes they just build an enclosure around the unit and pour liquid nitrogen into the unit and work with a temperature gradient. After all, liquid nitrogen is about as expensive as low grade beer. You can also keep solid carbon dioxide in your enclosure, if you're on a budget. [Wonder if anyone ever had a champagne budget to study minerals? Oh, that's mineral collecting. Sorry.] Just keep a thermo-recorder going and you're sure you've measured structural data over the maximum and minimum temperature range. Some of the hot shots (no irony intended) use a refrigerated enclosure to minimize the atomic vibration so they can improve their R-factors. For the high temperature polymorphs, they use electric heaters, etc. It all gets whacky when they also have to squeeze the mineral as well as control the temperature. BTW. The drug industry (the legitimate one) uses crystallographers more than any other organization. Also, there are more clay mineralogists employed than any other kind of mineralogist. As an aside, my advisor wanted me to solve the structure for inter-layer water in vermiculite. We were going to synthesize vermiculite from phlogopite. You put the low-iron phlogopite, nearly colorless from Balmat, NY into a solution of 1M LiCl at 80 degrees C. Three days later, put the same flake in a thoroughly cleaned beaker and repeat with new solution. After three iterations, the interlayer K is now replaced by aquated Li. You have to make sure that the K is not available to re-enter the inter-layer once you've leached it out, otherwise it'd pop back in. We were going to use NMR to determine the position of the water and associated hydrogen vectors. The neat thing was that we were going to put the synthetic vermiculite into 0.1M LiCl and the Lithium's aquation sphere would expand the synthetic vermiculite inter-layer spacing to 200 Angstroms. When we did, you could look right through the side of the material! We were going to use solid carbon dioxide to refrigerate the sample during data collection. Unfortunately, the grant paying for this was from the US Army who were interested in fully characterizing tundra soils for winter warfare and as the info would be classified, I couldn't be a co-author. My wife argued that I should get a real job, which I did. Also, BTW, if you put the synthetic vermiculite into distilled water, it completely disaggregates. You can try this at home. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > but I suspect we have > > another good candidate for a grad student looking for a thesis topic. > > Let me jump right on that! I can see that in American Mineralogist: > "Moh's Hardness Determinations > for Low-Temperature, Standard-Pressure Polymorphs of H2O," or words to > that effect. > > So how do you do a powder pattern or single crystal diffraction on > water? If there is a cryogenic version of each of these instruments > then I will have seen everything. > > Don > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 07:23:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 06:23:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <001901c361c0$db7e2bc0$66bd79c3@o8o3s6> Message-ID: <000901c363f9$871f7c60$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Sorry, I was away for two days. >Was there for instance an increase in global temperature > after the huge Deccan trap volcanic activity in India (Poona zeolite > localities)? I think you should be able to see effects of volcanic eruptions that are MUCH smaller than that. Fine ash may obstruct sunlight and provide condensation-seeds for moisture, increasing rainfall. Mnt St Helens or Pinatubo should be visible on the statistics... I think ;-)) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice de Graaf" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > >Thanks, I was aware of the fact but I wonder about the chemstry that makes > >it happen. > >As far as I know, exposed rocks are already either cabonates or silicates > or > >borates... I do not know of any mineral that would gladly react with CO2 > >like lime would or caustic soda... > >Naturally, in every rock there is some water and water may dissolve some > >CO2... > > I think what is meant here is that rocks (limestone) form a great reservoir > to store the earth's CO2. The CO2 is not directly absorbed into the rock, > but it is absorbed into the sea. As we all know limestone has it's origin in > shallow seas. At the moment the vast majority of CO2 on this planet occurs > in limestone. The relation with global heating it not so much that any rock > could somehow capture CO2 from the atmosphere, but it is the other way > around. By enviromental changes like acidic rain (SO2) the limestone > dissolves and sets more CO2 free. > > Or the global heating is caused by us rockhouds, dissolving all the calcite > crusts from our samples.......... > > It is an interesting discussion an I wonder what the effect of huge volcanic > eruptions would be? Was there for instance an increase in global temperature > after the huge Deccan trap volcanic activity in India (Poona zeolite > localities)? > > regards from a still warm Holland (I would like a cold fizzling beer, but > that only makes things worse in time....) > > > Maurice > > > > > > > >Seems like this global warming thread has some deep roots in geology after > >all.... > > > >Cheers > > > >Axel Emmermann > >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > >Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > >Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > >E-mail: > >axel.emmermann@pandora.be > >Visit our homepage: > >http://www.minerant.org/index.html > >Bezoek onze web-site: > >http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > >My own web-site: > >http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Thomas Yancey" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:28 PM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > >> Axel, > >> > >> Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is > >> important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the > >> crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result > >> of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the > >> minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the > >> water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock > >> reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term > >> storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the > >> atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in > >> carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount > >> of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, > >> this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is > >> important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not > >> have much effect on short term weather variations. > >> > >> T. Yancey > >> > >> > >> >I recently learned that rocks and mountains can absorb CO2... > >> >Do you know how they do that? > >> > > >> > >> snip > >> > >> > > >> >Axel Emmermann > >> >Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > >> >Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 07:25:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 06:25:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Questions... In-Reply-To: <3F3E1B8F.CE8B6F40@att.net> Message-ID: Here you are: "The DXR-6 Diamond Anvil X-ray Cell This very simple cell was the first device designed by Diacell Products Limited specifically for X-ray diffraction applications. Using a screw drive mechanism and 200-micron anvil culets, pressures up to 95 GPa have been obtained. Over the past five years, the DXR-6 has been one of the best selling diamond anvil cells within Diacell's product portfolio. . . . In both cell types cooling may be achieved by the technique common in X-ray crystallography, blowing evaporated liquid nitrogen over the anvils and sample. Alternatively, these cells may be mounted in an appropriate cryostat." http://www.diacell.co.uk/dxr-6.htm A bit pricy would be my guess tho. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > but I suspect we have > > another good candidate for a grad student looking for a thesis topic. > > Let me jump right on that! I can see that in American Mineralogist: > "Moh's Hardness Determinations > for Low-Temperature, Standard-Pressure Polymorphs of H2O," or words to > that effect. > > So how do you do a powder pattern or single crystal diffraction on > water? If there is a cryogenic version of each of these instruments > then I will have seen everything. > > Don > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 07:25:06 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 06:25:06 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <7FB3DCD6-CCE2-11D7-A683-000393B396CA@mac.com> <001101c3610b$52746480$87ab77d5@pandora.be> <004a01c361a1$6f801600$979f77d5@pandora.be> <00be01c361bb$96421e40$979f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <000f01c363f9$d20734c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> I get smarter by the minute... Thank you for the explanation. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yancey" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:34 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > I should have said that it is the high temperature silicate minerals > (components of granitic rocks, volcanic rocks, high grade metamorphic > rocks) that consume most of the carbon during weathering. These > silicates formed under conditions different than Earth surface > conditions, so are unstable and produce a variety of > carbon-containing weathering products. A major product is sedimentary > calcium carbonate (calcite, aragonite, etc.) Of course, the > carbonates present in sedimentary rocks also weather, without > consuming carbon, but they are again prone to re-precipitate as > carbonate, thus not changing the carbon balance. However, it > carbonates are involved in deep metamorphism, they are degraded and > will release carbon dioxide gas that is released during volcanism to > complete their part in the carbon cycle. > > The lower temperature silicate clay minerals must also be part of > this cycle, but I am not aware of any specific study that addresses > this issue. They seem to be regarded as a minor component in the > geological carbon cycle. > > I would say that borates are a minor group of minerals in surface > sediments. Sulphates are more important, and they are of importance > in the sulfur cycle that is of interest in oceanography. Again, on a > geological time scale. > > T. Yancey > > > >Thanks, I was aware of the fact but I wonder about the chemstry that makes > >it happen. > >As far as I know, exposed rocks are already either cabonates or silicates or > >borates... I do not know of any mineral that would gladly react with CO2 > >like lime would or caustic soda... > >Naturally, in every rock there is some water and water may dissolve some > >CO2... > > snip > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Thomas Yancey" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:28 PM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > >> Axel, > >> > >> Carbon dioxide produces carbonic acid in rainwater. This acid is > >> important in the weathering and alteration of rock, especially the > >> crystalline rocks that occur in uplifted mountain ranges. As a result > >> of this weathering process, the carbon atoms are taken up by the > >> minerals formed during weathering. This removes them from the > >> water/air reservoirs and stores them in minerals, as part of the rock > >> reservoir. In this place (the rock reservoir) they are in long term > >> storage and can lead to reduced levels of carbon dioxide in the > >> atmosphere. The relationship of weathering leading to decrease in > >> carbon dioxide levels seems to depend to a large extent on the amount > >> of tectonic uplift and mountain building that is going on. Again, > >> this is a long term (millions of years) type of control. It is > >> important in determining the geological carbon cycle, but will not > > > have much effect on short term weather variations. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 07:34:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 16 06:34:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Every mineral has a difference in hardness according to direction References: <163.2413a3dd.2c603862@aol.com> <003a01c35b6d$bb7adca0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> <3F3D77B3.4796@Tomaszewski.net> <3F3D89BA.A45D128E@att.net> <3F3D9AEE.40B6@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000f01c363fa$e94171e0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Actually, hardness is at least somewhat different in virtually every mineral, depending on direction. As you changed the cross-section, you change the resistance to scratching. Usually the difference is small and of no practical value. Diamond is supposedly the world's champion with very different hardness according to direction. However, the Mohs scale [Friedrich Mohs proposed it in his 1822 treatise, but there were previous scales. His was just well based.] is a gross, not a fine, test. The theory is that you get an "average" response if you do not choose your scratching direction purposefully. One of the students in the intro mineral course missed identifying microcline because he used an expensive knife. The blade was very hard and it scratched microcline, so he called it something else. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:46 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Questions... > I think part of the confusion here is dealing with "hardness" as defined > by two different 'sciences'. Glaciology is the study of snow and > glaciers (ice, etc) and it uses a different definition of hardness for > snow and ice than does Geology and Mineralogy. We have to be careful not > to confuse the two terms that use the same word. > > On the 'surface' of the Earth the pressure/temperature ranges only allow > for one phase of ice (but two different crystal arrangements, hexagonal > and cubic), but we do get some other choices in the rest of the solar > system. > > However, I think you are correct in drawing both definitions of hardness > to bond type and strength. Glaciology is primarily concerned with the > bonds between different crystals, and Geology is more concerned with the > bonds within a single crystal, at least as it relates to "hardness". > > As you mentioned, (Geology) hardness is often different depending on the > orientation of the scratch on the crystal formation; calcite can be > scratched on the crystal base with a fingernail, but not on its > rhombohedron cleavage faces. > > I suspect ice may also have some variation from orientation too, but I > have not been able to find any data that differentiates ice-Ih and > ice-Ic, without bringing in crystal direction to further confuse the > issue. I simply use the accepted value of 1 1/2 Mohs for ice for all > 'normal' flavors. > > You ask a good question (with interesting implications) and I had to do > some digging to give what I hope is a helpful answer; I hope someone on > the list can bring more light to the subject -- but I suspect we have > another good candidate for a grad student looking for a thesis topic. > > > Don H wrote: > > > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > > The 'hardness' of snow (and ice) on a ski slope, glacier, frozen lake, > > > or hockey rink, is a measure of penetration by a standard weight dropped > > > from a standard height. This hardness usually increases with decreasing > > > temperature. It is not the same as mineral hardness, which should be > > > constant for each phase of ice. > > > > I am asking this out of curiousity and as a learning experience, not out > > of dispute. The question: wouldn't hardness also relate to crystal > > structure, which relates to bond type and strength? The more I learn > > about crystallography and crystal chemistry, the more I see that these > > might be related (1). Isn't the classic example of the increasing > > hardness of carbon/graphite/diamond applicable here as well? I have > > heard and read that multiple minerals have varying Moh's hardness based > > upon the direction in which you scratch; I think kyanite is often used > > as an example of this phenomenon. Why would it not apply to polytypes > > of water? > > > > Don > > > > (1) I love college-level chemistry and crystallography books. To sum > > up what they say--with tongue firmly in cheek--we find this: "Forget > > what you learned in high school, forget the Bohr model and neat orbits. > > The electron cloud is a nebulous entity that does and does not exist in > > Newtonian time and space and can only be truly understood by three or > > four people, and the rest of us must perceive the electron cloud > > phenomenon in an imperfect model that nonetheless is workable for the > > majority of chemists and mineralogists. Forget ball and spoke models as > > well, since the bonds formed by atoms would look nothing like the > > drawings in any book if you could see them, which you never could since > > atoms are smaller than the smallest wavelength of visible light." > > That's nice. Of course I don't think there are stand-up comedy clubs > > for physicists, so the preceding observation bears little utility except > > to remind us of the awesome complexity of our universe. The more I > > learn, the less I know, and the more inspired I am by the intricacy of > > it all. > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 08:01:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 07:01:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <003e01c363fe$cce1d0e0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean fusion! Wanna go there? What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change that has to come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher measures. I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not know exactly whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we don't know, we have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset button or time travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry (and maybe to a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) have a 50% chance of holding the life of every living thing on this planet in their hands. Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of the worlds population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and pestilences... Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies as a HUGE gamble. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a fellow > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon and that by > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma of the left > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can amputate the > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the money and > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global warming if > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan will only > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of a degree. > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one country has > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the loudest about > the issue. > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held as anathema > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical large scale > source of non-polluting power. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is not > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > loaded. Do you > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an experiment to > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the experiment involves > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > think I would > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small steps like > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and > > intellect..... > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "TA Masters" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > List, > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I see > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > Teresa > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 08:21:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 07:21:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> Message-ID: <004c01c36401$98f761c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll throw this on the list too ;-))) Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) lies therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make ecological decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're smart enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose them out of the same pool over and over again) we should look for another planet to move to. I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red giant in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around in 80 years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to recent studies). If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few clouds of soot in an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and close the hole in the ozon layer while we're at it). Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "TA Masters" To: Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Dear Axel, > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, "thank You Axel" > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot and sent too > quickly. > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > evidence of that in the world today. > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? > Teresa > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 08:23:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 07:23:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <003e01c363fe$cce1d0e0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on the earth. You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if there is a problem in the first place. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean fusion! > Wanna go there? > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > that has to > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher measures. > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > know exactly > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we don't know, we > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > button or time > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > (and maybe to > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > have a 50% > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this planet in their > hands. > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of the worlds > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and pestilences... > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > as a HUGE > gamble. > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a fellow > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon and that by > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma of the > left > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > amputate the > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the money > and > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global warming > if > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan will only > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of a > degree. > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > country has > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > loudest about > > the issue. > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held as > anathema > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical large scale > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is not > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > loaded. Do you > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > experiment to > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > experiment involves > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > think I would > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small steps > like > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > Belgium > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > E-mail: > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > Visit our homepage: > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > My own web-site: > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I see > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 08:32:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 16 07:32:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] The pollucite Rushes of 1895, 1925, and 1955 References: Message-ID: <001701c36403$0108cfa0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> As a tangent to the halogen issue, the alkali Cesium has a similar experimental history. There were 3 pollucite rushes in Maine as a result. Originally, pollucite wasn't recognized to contain Cs. The element gets its name from the color of some important spectral lines and were discovered by Robert Bunsen and Gustav Kirchhoff and cesium and rubidium were first found in brine in 1860. A couple of years later Cs and Rb was found in lepidolite and there was a minor rush for it at Mount Mica and Mount Rubellite by Yale chemists/mineralogists. When Cs was discovered in pollucite, there wasn't enough of it to use as an ore. By 1890, pollucite was found at Mount Rubellite and the tourmaline miners were distracted occasionally by the Federal currency being offered for pollucite. Most of the Mount Rubellite pollucite was consumed in studying the chemical compounds of Cs. Yale researchers, including Oscar D. Allen and Horace Wells, published over 30 papers on the subject. One of the students who studied the chemistry of cesium and uranium was Frederick Soddy and he eventually recognized that elements had isotopes. He probably would have studied something completely different if his advisors weren't so enthusiastic about Maine cesium. Eventually, there were enough papers on the chemistry of cesium and there wasn't a lot of Mount Rubellite Pollucite left to play with anyway and the rush, as they all do, fizzled. When Perien Dudley discovered pollucite at Mount Mica about 1914, no one cared. However, when the electronics industry found you could build a better radio tube by including some pollucite in one, GE became feral on the topic. Ed Bailey of Andover, Maine had raised Dick Nevel as a foster child and got him into mining. Nevel sought a lease from Freeland Howe Jr. (that's right, not George Howe, the man who named watermelon tourmaline) in 1925 and tried to find more pollucite at Mount Mica. Nevel did find several places in Buckfield, probably with the help of Perien Dudley, who lived in Buckfield. Meanwhile, Bailey discovered pollucite at Newry. Soon, GE had about four or five mines working for pollucite, and GE sent Nevel to California in the winter to find more pollucite at Fred Rynerson's tourmaline mines in Pala. No more pollucite was found during the time and Nevel returned and concentrated on pollucite mining in Oxford County until the pegmatites were exhausted and GE discovered that cesium was destroying the tubes it was supposed to help. This was in 1930. (Nevel even tried to rework Mount Rubellite, but he didn't find much to excite him until 1934 when he found a nice tourmaline pocket with gemmy red tipped tourmalines with green prisms.) The second pollucite rush fizzled. In the early 1950's, Stan Perham was working a number of mines in Oxford County because there was a bounty being paid on strategic minerals needed in the Korean War. There were a succession of exploration pits, BB number 1-6, which yielded little mica. On Friday, August 13, 1954, the BB #7 pit produced a remarkable gem tourmaline pocket with tourmaline of such a stunning green that some crystals were equal to the green crystals found in 1910-1913 at the Berry quarry in Poland, Maine (then regarded as the best green tourmalines known. Best for color of gemstones, not for crystal shape, etc.). There was a quantity of pollucite discovered near the pocket and coincidentally, the US was working on a rocket fuel formula for space exploration. (Yes, Virginia, the USA was interested in space exploration before Sputnik). There was a man in Massachusetts who had a cesium-based formula for rocket propulsion. A Maine cesium rush was again on. A cesium mining company was formed - TC Mining Co. (Trap Corner Mining Co. - Trap Corner was where the Perham gem and mineral store was and is.) Werner von Braun was visited by the Perhams and there were dreams of riches among all the share holders. Unfortunately, the cesium-based formula was a closely held secret by the Massachusetts chemist. Not unlike the tactics of Joseph McCarthy, "I have in my hand a list of 87 known Communists in the Federal Government" - McCarthy was only holding his laundry list - the Massachusetts chemist never showed the formula to the space scientists. Equally unfortunate was the chemist dying without giving notice, just before TC Mining was to get a lucrative mining contract from the chemical company which was expected to extract the space age element. A search of the man's lab and home revealed no trace of the formula. Equally important, someone in the government asked the important question, "How much pollucite can we hope to get?" With known reserves of about a hundred pounds and no known recipe, the third pollucite rush fizzled. Sic transit gloria mundi. Today there are big reserves of pollucite at Bernic Lake, Bikita, and elsewhere, all waiting for their own rushes. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:13 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Halogens or hoax? > The halogens are present as a gas and allows the evaporated atoms from the > filiment to be redeposited on the filament thus extending the life of the > lamps: > > "What materials are used in halogen lamps? There are two kinds of bulbs used > in halogen lamps: transparent and translucent quartz bulbs. Materials inside > the halogen lamp include tungsten filament, molybdenum foil, and filling > gases consisting of a combination of Nitrogen (N2), Argon (AR), Krypton (Kr) > and a small amount of halogen gas made up of iodine (I), bromine (Br), > chlorine (Cl), and fluorine (F). The base of the lamp is usually made of > steatite or heat-resistant metal." > > Lots of other info on this site about the lamps: > > http://www.ushio.com/faq.htm > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > Well, maybe not a hoax, but as I was working with yet another "quartz > > halogen" lamp, I really began to question the meaning of the term. > > Looking carefully at the contents of the lamp, I see no liquids or > > solids (besides the filament), so that would rule out elemental bromine > > or iodine--unless they are in such small quantities that I don't see > > them. Let us pray there is no astatine floating around either. That > > leaves fluorine and chlorine, and I need not describe the inherent > > problems with those. A web search yielded plenty of info, but none of > > the search strings I tried yielded the magic formula. Might the active > > ingredient be a halogenated compound? Or has there simply been some > > misappropriation of the term? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 08:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 16 07:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] polytypes, polymorphs? References: <3F3D8C65.4748B7D5@att.net> Message-ID: <002101c36403$93b02560$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Yes, but it's OK to say that they are polymorphs of each other. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: "rockhounds" Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] polytypes, polymorphs? > > Argh. I replied to Kreigh's post titled "Questions..." and I wrote > "polytypes" when I meant to write "polymorphs." Not the same thing. I > realized my mistake just after I hit "Enter" so I am correcting it now. > > However, this raises a significant and related question about one of my > favorite topics, terminology. One sometimes reads or hears a phrase such > as "calcite is a polymorph of aragonite" or "calcite and aragonite are > polymorphs." Given the root of the Greek word, which means "many > forms," shouldn't the correct phrasing be "calcite and aragonite are > polymorphs of calcium carbonate"? > > Thanks, > > Don > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 09:17:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 08:17:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <016901c36409$7b234c60$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Brian wrote: > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on the > earth. Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all species survived (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian basalt-flows, a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. (LOL, pardon my sense of humor please...) >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > there is a problem in the first place. I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... naturally, IF there's a problem. I found this among a few dozen others... http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm Axel > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean fusion! > > Wanna go there? > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > that has to > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher measures. > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > know exactly > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we don't know, we > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > button or time > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > (and maybe to > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > have a 50% > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this planet in their > > hands. > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of the worlds > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and pestilences... > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > > as a HUGE > > gamble. > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a fellow > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon and that by > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma of the > > left > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > amputate the > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the money > > and > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global warming > > if > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan will only > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of a > > degree. > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > country has > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > loudest about > > > the issue. > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held as > > anathema > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical large scale > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is not > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > experiment to > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > experiment involves > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > > think I would > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small steps > > like > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > Belgium > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > E-mail: > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > My own web-site: > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I see > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 09:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Aug 16 08:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> <004c01c36401$98f761c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3F3E52D2.769C@Tomaszewski.net> Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. Axel Emmermann wrote: > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll throw this on the > list too ;-))) > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) lies > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make ecological > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're smart > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose them out of the > same pool over and over again) we should look for another planet to move to. > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red giant > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around in 80 > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to recent > studies). > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few clouds of soot in > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and close the hole > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > Cheers > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TA Masters" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > Dear Axel, > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, "thank You Axel" > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot and sent too > > quickly. > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? > > Teresa > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 10:41:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 09:41:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <016901c36409$7b234c60$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the period of the Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. The Siberian traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple of degrees is going to lead to mass extinctions. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > Brian wrote: > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on the > > earth. > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all species survived > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > basalt-flows, > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. (LOL, > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > there is a problem in the first place. > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... naturally, IF > there's a problem. > I found this among a few dozen others... > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > Axel > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean > fusion! > > > Wanna go there? > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > that has to > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher measures. > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > know exactly > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > don't know, we > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > button or time > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > (and maybe to > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > have a 50% > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > planet in their > > > hands. > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of the worlds > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > pestilences... > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > > > as a HUGE > > > gamble. > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > Belgium > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > E-mail: > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > Visit our homepage: > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > My own web-site: > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a fellow > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > and that by > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma of > the > > > left > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > amputate the > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the > money > > > and > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global > warming > > > if > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > will only > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of a > > > degree. > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > country has > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > loudest about > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held as > > > anathema > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > large scale > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is > not > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > experiment to > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > experiment involves > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > > > think I would > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small > steps > > > like > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > Belgium > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I > see > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 11:34:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sat Aug 16 10:34:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite Question References: Message-ID: <3F3E6B21.7C7F29BE@att.net> Faceter01 wrote: > > Just a fast question about Pyrite. I bought two pieces which had triangular crystal formation > and just wanted to know if these were common pieces. They are from Peru and didn't cost very much. > > Although they are the wrong color, they look just like tetrahedrite or carrollite crystals. Pyrite takes many forms, all of them variations of the isometric (sometimes called "cubic") system. Within the isometric system there are forms such as octahedron, cube, and dodecahedron. One of my texts lists an excerpt from Hinrichs "Microchemical Analysis" showing 49 forms, up to and including the hexakisoctahedron. These are displayed as holohedral tesseral combinations, based upon 7 fundamental forms. Don't think I know this from memory; I have the text open in my lap as I write. I do not know if pyrite takes all of these forms in nature; but I have seen several of them. The Handbook of Mineralogy, Vol. I p. 426, lists the structure as "commonly cubic, pyritohedral, octahedral, and combinations of these and other forms, to 25 cm or more." It shares the chemistry with marcasite--FeS2--but marcasite crystallizes in the orthorhombic system (p. 312) and thus the two are known as "dimorphous" with each other. Marcasite and pyrite can be easily confused. On p. 426 again we find a comment you might like: "On a few localities for large or fine crystals can be mentioned. In Peru, from many districts, with exceptional crystals from the Quiruvilca Mine, La Libertad, and Huanzala, Huanaco." Here is one of many links to a photo of what yours might look like: http://www.graywolfgalleries.com/pyrpyrcryspe.html I answered a similar question on the phone the other night using a simple analogy, so I will try to help you as well. In that case, a certain gentleman was attempting to find the optic axis of a quartz specimen, except the specimen was not in the ideal form with perfect hexagonal sides. Apparently he spent quite some time wandering the Springfield mineral show asking dealers and trying to understand where the C axis went. One of them sent him to me, and I explained it this way: Most minerals form from basic building blocks. Many people I know who don't collect minerals expect my collection to contain large, well-defined, euhedral crystals. They are surprised to find a number of colorful crusts and other specimens which lack an apparent external morphology. (We must take care not to use the term "amorphous" here. The microscopic unit building blocks can have a regular, repeating pattern that is not apparent to our perception at the macroscopic level). Now, let us look at a slightly imperfect but sufficient analogy. Suppose you are talking about the isometric ("cubic") system. You have a box of Legos and they are all squares, the little ones with four pegs on top. Suppose you take them and lay out a big square on the ground, twenty blocks by twenty blocks, filled in completely. Then you take enough for 19 blocks x 19 blocks, and build them on top of the base. You keep doing this, decreasing as you go up. Eventually you will have a pyramid. If you back away far enough, it will look like a smooth pyramid (just like the Egyptian pyramids do). As you come closer again, you will see that the pyramid is made of small cubes stacked up. If you can find a copy of Jennie Smith's "A Guide to Understanding Crystallography," page 15 explains this briefly, but I find that using the extended Legos analogy makes it clearer to some people. Enjoy your pyrites! Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:00:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Thomas Yancey) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:00:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to add some historical information on this topic, the glacial ice ages of the late Paleozoic (Carboniferous-Permian) started in the early Carboniferous (i.e., Mississippian) - or perhaps in the latest Devonian - not in the Permian. The early Permian ice sheets were the last episode of extensive glaciation for that time period, but are best known because they were the last ones and therefore are best preserved. Really, the beginnings of late Paleozoic icehouse conditions for the Earth were in the latest Devonian, with cooling global climates resulting in intervals of continental glaciers throughout much of the Carboniferous and early Permian. The end of icehouse conditions occurred in the mid Permian as the Earth began a transition to hothouse climates that peaked in the Cretaceous. Since the mid Cretaceous, the Earth has been gradually cooling to the last Ice Ages interval. The first continental ice sheets to form (on Antarctica) in this cooling trend appeared about 30 million years ago. Continental ice sheets first appeared in the northern hemisphere about 2-3 million years ago and there have been regular expansions and contractions of continental ice sheets since then. This pattern of regular expansions and contractions of continental ice sheets also characterized the Carboniferous and early Permian glaciations. By the mid Permian, the Earth was definitely warming. The Siberian Traps volcanic eruptions probably occurred mostly in the late Permian, and some people associate these eruptions with end-Permian mass extinctions, but not with glaciations. Actually, it is very hard to establish a link between volcanic eruptions and long term climate change. Volcanic emissions of particulates can cause short term drop in global temperatures (due to increased reflection of solar radiation from the particles in the upper atmosphere) but it probably takes very long term continual volcanic eruptions to add enough carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere to cause global heating. Sorry if this sounds too much like a lecture, but I present this topic frequently to students and have been involved in work trying to determine the climatic record of the late Paleozoic (Carboniferous-Permian). Tom Yancey >The Siberian >traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming >IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:30:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:30:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> <004c01c36401$98f761c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3F3E783F.3020106@cox.net> This has become a discussion with more than one mindset. Reminds me of "Point CounterPoint" The Western World cannot resolve the problems of the World in toot. Onlist we are seeing the frustration of one not being able to get another to see and agree with their evaluation. So what else is new. We, peoples, cannot agree on Creationism or Evolution, how ever can there be agreement on Global Warming. Couple of days ago a link to an anti-Semitic site was posted on this list, only two other persons reacted as I did publicly. As far as 2 billion or 80 years, with the current situation around the world and the wanton need to kill innocents to make a statement, nuclear proliferation, 80 years may be generous. The best we can do at this time is to be responsible, conserve natural resources where we can, and work for peace within ourselves. Accept others without trying to convert them to our way of thinking. We need to exchange "tolerate" for "accept" only in that way can we reach a peaceful state. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:45:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> <004c01c36401$98f761c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> <3F3E52D2.769C@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000201c36426$5930a180$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> If I recall right, Yellowstone's previous eruption created a blanket of ash of several tens of meters thick over a SERIOUS part of the North American continent. Some of the finest dinosaur-fossils are found in it. I don't pray because I'm not religious but I'm willing to make an exeption here. I'll pray that Yellowstone won't pop without a serious advance warning. You don't want to be within a 1000 miles when it goes if you're downwind of it. Those caldera eruptions will dwarf even Pinatubo or Krakatau. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is > bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into > the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll throw this on the > > list too ;-))) > > > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) lies > > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make ecological > > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're smart > > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose them out of the > > same pool over and over again) we should look for another planet to move to. > > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red giant > > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around in 80 > > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to recent > > studies). > > > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few clouds of soot in > > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and close the hole > > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > > > Cheers > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "TA Masters" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > Dear Axel, > > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, "thank You Axel" > > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot and sent too > > > quickly. > > > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? > > > Teresa > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:45:16 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:45:16 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <000101c36426$58fe46e0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general plantlife. Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively measured currently in the Matto Grosso) -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. Continental drought as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... temperature rises. -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises dramatically -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes unstable and methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is easily transformed in more CO2. -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 (and O2, so fish die too) -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. (If I recall right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the Oil Tycoons who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's nobody around to see the irony of it... (ROFL Like it? Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the period of the > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. The Siberian > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple of degrees is > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on the > > > earth. > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all species survived > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > basalt-flows, > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. (LOL, > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... naturally, IF > > there's a problem. > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean > > fusion! > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > that has to > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher measures. > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > know exactly > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > don't know, we > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > button or time > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > (and maybe to > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > have a 50% > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > planet in their > > > > hands. > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of the worlds > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > pestilences... > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > > > > as a HUGE > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > Belgium > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > E-mail: > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > My own web-site: > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a fellow > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > and that by > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma of > > the > > > > left > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > amputate the > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the > > money > > > > and > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global > > warming > > > > if > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > will only > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of a > > > > degree. > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > country has > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > loudest about > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held as > > > > anathema > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > large scale > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it is > > not > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > experiment to > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small > > steps > > > > like > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense and > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages I > > see > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:45:21 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:45:21 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <3F3E783F.3020106@cox.net> References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> <004c01c36401$98f761c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030816085526.0234bec0@mail.aloha.net> > Couple of days ago a link to an anti-Semitic site was posted on >this list, only two other persons reacted as I did publicly. > >Teresa Terrie, I never saw the anti-Semitic link, nor your response, nor those of the two other people. Are you perhaps thinking of another list? I have occasionally gotten a message late, but to miss four messages completely seems odd. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now that was interesting. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > Just to add some historical information on this topic, the glacial > ice ages of the late Paleozoic (Carboniferous-Permian) started in the > early Carboniferous (i.e., Mississippian) - or perhaps in the latest > Devonian - not in the Permian. The early Permian ice sheets were the > last episode of extensive glaciation for that time period, but are > best known because they were the last ones and therefore are best > preserved. Really, the beginnings of late Paleozoic icehouse > conditions for the Earth were in the latest Devonian, with cooling > global climates resulting in intervals of continental glaciers > throughout much of the Carboniferous and early Permian. The end of > icehouse conditions occurred in the mid Permian as the Earth began a > transition to hothouse climates that peaked in the Cretaceous. Since > the mid Cretaceous, the Earth has been gradually cooling to the last > Ice Ages interval. The first continental ice sheets to form (on > Antarctica) in this cooling trend appeared about 30 million years > ago. Continental ice sheets first appeared in the northern hemisphere > about 2-3 million years ago and there have been regular expansions > and contractions of continental ice sheets since then. This pattern > of regular expansions and contractions of continental ice sheets also > characterized the Carboniferous and early Permian glaciations. > > By the mid Permian, the Earth was definitely warming. The Siberian > Traps volcanic eruptions probably occurred mostly in the late > Permian, and some people associate these eruptions with end-Permian > mass extinctions, but not with glaciations. > > Actually, it is very hard to establish a link between volcanic > eruptions and long term climate change. Volcanic emissions of > particulates can cause short term drop in global temperatures (due to > increased reflection of solar radiation from the particles in the > upper atmosphere) but it probably takes very long term continual > volcanic eruptions to add enough carbon dioxide gas to the atmosphere > to cause global heating. > > Sorry if this sounds too much like a lecture, but I present this > topic frequently to students and have been involved in work trying to > determine the climatic record of the late Paleozoic > (Carboniferous-Permian). > > Tom Yancey > > > >The Siberian > >traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming > >IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:53:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:53:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <000101c36426$58fe46e0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Maybe you could sell that script to one of the Hollywood disaster movie producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 13:26 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general plantlife. > Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively > measured currently in the Matto Grosso) > -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. Continental drought > as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) > -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... > temperature rises. > -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator > -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises > dramatically > -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster > -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes > unstable and > methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is > easily transformed in more CO2. > -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 (and O2, so > fish die too) > -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and > organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. > (If I recall > right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) > -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the Oil Tycoons > who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, > pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's > nobody around > to see the irony of it... (ROFL > > Like it? > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the > period of the > > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. The Siberian > > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming > > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple of degrees > is > > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on > the > > > > earth. > > > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all species survived > > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > > basalt-flows, > > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. > (LOL, > > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... naturally, > IF > > > there's a problem. > > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel > Emmermann > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean > > > fusion! > > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > > that has to > > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher > measures. > > > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > > know exactly > > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > > don't know, we > > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > > button or time > > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > > (and maybe to > > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > > have a 50% > > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > > planet in their > > > > > hands. > > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of > the worlds > > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > > pestilences... > > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > > > > > as a HUGE > > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > Belgium > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a > fellow > > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > > and that by > > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma > of > > > the > > > > > left > > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > > amputate the > > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first > I need the > > > money > > > > > and > > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what > would you do? > > > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global > > > warming > > > > > if > > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > > will only > > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by > fraction of > a > > > > > degree. > > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > > country has > > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > > loudest about > > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held > as > > > > > anathema > > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > > large scale > > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your > neighbour says it > is > > > not > > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > > experiment to > > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! > Still, small > > > steps > > > > > like > > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense > and > > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, > informative messages > I > > > see > > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 12:56:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 11:56:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <000201c36426$5930a180$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: Are you talking about the possible Lake Yellowstone gas eruptions? I thought the park people were saying that this was not volcanic in origin. But the Yellowstone eruptions along with the Long Valley Caldera eeruption were very large. Long Valley has had increased activity for a decade or so now. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > If I recall right, Yellowstone's previous eruption created a > blanket of ash > of several tens of meters thick over a SERIOUS part of the North American > continent. Some of the finest dinosaur-fossils are found in it. > > I don't pray because I'm not religious but I'm willing to make an exeption > here. I'll pray that Yellowstone won't pop without a serious advance > warning. You don't want to be within a 1000 miles when it goes if you're > downwind of it. Those caldera eruptions will dwarf even Pinatubo or > Krakatau. > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:54 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is > > bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into > > the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. > > > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll > throw this on > the > > > list too ;-))) > > > > > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) > lies > > > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > > > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > > > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make > ecological > > > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're > smart > > > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose > them out of > the > > > same pool over and over again) we should look for another > planet to move > to. > > > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > > > > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red > giant > > > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around > in 80 > > > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to > recent > > > studies). > > > > > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few > clouds of soot > in > > > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and > close the > hole > > > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > Belgium > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > E-mail: > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > Visit our homepage: > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > My own web-site: > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Dear Axel, > > > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, > "thank You Axel" > > > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot > and sent too > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory > conclusions. > > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid > that? > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 13:43:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Sat Aug 16 12:43:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just came back from a trip to Kamchatka, where I was fortunate enough to spent one month in their volcanologic institute and on their volcanoes. I experienced a small ash eruption of Karymsky volcano while hovering next to it in a helicopter. That and all other volcanic experiences up there gave me an even bigger respect for volcanoes, and nature of that matter. We humans tend to think that we are important and are in control of the world around us. The truth is a small hickup of nature can take many of us away. Global heating or a meteor impact can wipe our whole species from this planet. I would be unpleasant for us, but the KT boundary was no ball for the dinosaurs either. But that is how (in my opinion)nature works. When we humans are gone new species will fill the gap, like the mammals replaced the reptiles. It is a wonderfull example of evolution. Up until now creatures needed nature for their extinction. With a little bad luck we can do it ourselves. I'm not pessimistic at all. This is just a push for me to enjoy life to the fullest and be a little carefull with this tiny rock on which we float through the galaxy. O, Axel don't worry about Yellowstone. You're practically sitting on your own Yellowstone, the Eifel! The last huge Eifel eruption was the one which formed Maria Laach. Debris blocked the Rhine river and flooded large parts of Germany. When the debris gave was northern Germany anf Holland where flooded. Ash fell well into Sweden. The thing is that the Eifel has a peculiar secuence of eruptions. It tends to be quiet for about 100.000 years and then suddenly have a huge explosive eruption, followed by 10 milenia of milder eruptions. Today we are about 100.000 years past the last activity. There are still magma chamber below the Eifel and in many lakes there you can see CO2 boubling from below...... Cheers, Maurice >Are you talking about the possible Lake Yellowstone gas eruptions? I thought >the park people were saying that this was not volcanic in origin. But the >Yellowstone eruptions along with the Long Valley Caldera eeruption were very >large. Long Valley has had increased activity for a decade or so now. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > If I recall right, Yellowstone's previous eruption created a > blanket of ash > of several tens of meters thick over a SERIOUS part of the North American > continent. Some of the finest dinosaur-fossils are found in it. > > I don't pray because I'm not religious but I'm willing to make an exeption > here. I'll pray that Yellowstone won't pop without a serious advance > warning. You don't want to be within a 1000 miles when it goes if you're > downwind of it. Those caldera eruptions will dwarf even Pinatubo or > Krakatau. > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:54 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is > > bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into > > the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. > > > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll > throw this on > the > > > list too ;-))) > > > > > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) > lies > > > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > > > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > > > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make > ecological > > > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're > smart > > > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose > them out of > the > > > same pool over and over again) we should look for another > planet to move > to. > > > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > > > > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red > giant > > > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around > in 80 > > > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to > recent > > > studies). > > > > > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few > clouds of soot > in > > > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and > close the > hole > > > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > Belgium > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > E-mail: > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > Visit our homepage: > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > My own web-site: > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Dear Axel, > > > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, > "thank You Axel" > > > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot > and sent too > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory > conclusions. > > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid > that? > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 14:42:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Aug 16 13:42:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? Message-ID: <7c.3c1d0c07.2c6ff0f7@aol.com> In a message dated 8/16/03 11:30:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tam2819@cox.net writes: > Couple of days ago a link to an anti-Semitic site was posted on this > list, only two other persons reacted as I did publicly. I didn't see that one, or if I did I didn't click on it. gRANT --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 14:45:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Aug 16 13:45:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Axel, I think I might be using the wrong tone in these messages. I respect your opinions but just disagree on this issue. I don't want this to degrade to a personal shouting match. So I'll try to tone down my replies. But this seems to be an issue where people just have to agree to disagree. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: J Bryan Kramer [mailto:jbryankramer@msn.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 13:52 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > Maybe you could sell that script to one of the Hollywood disaster > movie producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 13:26 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general > plantlife. > > Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively > > measured currently in the Matto Grosso) > > -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. > Continental drought > > as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) > > -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... > > temperature rises. > > -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator > > -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises > > dramatically > > -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster > > -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes > > unstable and > > methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is > > easily transformed in more CO2. > > -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 > (and O2, so > > fish die too) > > -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and > > organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. > > (If I recall > > right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) > > -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the > Oil Tycoons > > who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, > > pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's > > nobody around > > to see the irony of it... (ROFL > > > > Like it? > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the > > period of the > > > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. > The Siberian > > > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not > global warming > > > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > > > > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple > of degrees > > is > > > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of > Axel Emmermann > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life > continued on > > the > > > > > earth. > > > > > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all > species survived > > > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > > > basalt-flows, > > > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. > > (LOL, > > > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... > naturally, > > IF > > > > there's a problem. > > > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel > > Emmermann > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only > if you mean > > > > fusion! > > > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > > > that has to > > > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher > > measures. > > > > > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > > > know exactly > > > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > > > don't know, we > > > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > > > button or time > > > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > > > (and maybe to > > > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > > > have a 50% > > > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > > > planet in their > > > > > > hands. > > > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of > > the worlds > > > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > > > pestilences... > > > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that > qualifies > > > > > > as a HUGE > > > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a > > fellow > > > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > > > and that by > > > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may > have sarcoma > > of > > > > the > > > > > > left > > > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > > > amputate the > > > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first > > I need the > > > > money > > > > > > and > > > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what > > would you do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can > 'fix' global > > > > warming > > > > > > if > > > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > > > will only > > > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by > > fraction of > > a > > > > > > degree. > > > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > > > country has > > > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > > > loudest about > > > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible > solution is held > > as > > > > > > anathema > > > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > > > large scale > > > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your > > neighbour says it > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't > know if it is > > > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > > > experiment to > > > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the > atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! > > Still, small > > > > steps > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry > common sense > > and > > > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, > > informative messages > > I > > > > see > > > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 16:00:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Aug 16 15:00:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] visitor report Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> I'm tired of the depressing global warming topic so I'll toss out a cheerful visitor report. I don't know how many people on this list know each other personally, but recently Bill and I got to meet Kreigh and Monica Tomaszewsky. I know Kreigh is going to post a trip report on his website, so I won't steal his thunder. But I will give a short summary of the visit from our end. Last winter Kreigh asked off list what I could tell him about collecting in Hawaii, as he and his wife were going to take a vacation on Maui (it turned out later it was Kauai). I replied with a characteristically (for me) long message extolling the virtues of the Big Island, and urged them to expand their plans to come here. Eventually I offered them the use of our guest quarters, they accepted, and last week they spent a week here. The four of us had a marvelous time. I drove them to the volcano where they saw steam and recent flows, and a few days later they went back on their own and saw some red lava, though not going into the ocean. Bill had to work so he missed the outings, but Kreigh and Monica and I went part way around the island, seeing Laupahoehoe Point, Waipio Valley, and stopping at road cuts, of course. We went to the two rock shops on the island. Then one late afternoon Bill took Kreigh and Monica up to the top of Mauna Kea (I stayed home because I've done that trip many times, and I don't react very well to the altitude), where they hiked to an ancient Hawaiian adz quarry, looked in telescope domes, and watched the sun go down and the stars come out. Any of you interested in astronomy, take a look at this site: http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/mko/maunakea.htm When they weren't out sightseeing, Kreigh spent some time helping identify some of our "mystery rocks" that we have collected or that I inherited from my mom, and Monica did some weeding and planting in our garden. Very handy guests to have around! We found we had plenty to talk about in addition to rocks, and their last night here we invited my brother and sister-in-law for dinner and I don't think we talked about rocks at all for the whole evening! Kreigh mailed home several very heavy boxes, and we'll wait and see if he has any bad luck as a consequence! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 16:25:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD) Date: Sat Aug 16 15:25:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Teresa's Post Message-ID: <00b101c36446$2f59abc0$e5320343@uswest.net> Teresa---I did not receive anything like you have described. But an amusing sidebar about the extreme heat in France. I sent mail to = friend in Paris about syndicated article in local newspaper about some = of the astonishing Parisian views of people wearing just their = underwear, and his reply was---what underwear? Another friend emailed = that the heat had finally cooled down to 96* in Bordeaux. Danny / Seattle --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 17:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Aug 16 16:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <3F3EC324.697F@Tomaszewski.net> The entire yellowstone area has been bulging. Cause unknown, but there is speculation about a deep magma pool and/or a rising plume. J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > Are you talking about the possible Lake Yellowstone gas eruptions? I thought > the park people were saying that this was not volcanic in origin. But the > Yellowstone eruptions along with the Long Valley Caldera eeruption were very > large. Long Valley has had increased activity for a decade or so now. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > If I recall right, Yellowstone's previous eruption created a > > blanket of ash > > of several tens of meters thick over a SERIOUS part of the North American > > continent. Some of the finest dinosaur-fossils are found in it. > > > > I don't pray because I'm not religious but I'm willing to make an exeption > > here. I'll pray that Yellowstone won't pop without a serious advance > > warning. You don't want to be within a 1000 miles when it goes if you're > > downwind of it. Those caldera eruptions will dwarf even Pinatubo or > > Krakatau. > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is > > > bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into > > > the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll > > throw this on > > the > > > > list too ;-))) > > > > > > > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) > > lies > > > > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > > > > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > > > > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make > > ecological > > > > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're > > smart > > > > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose > > them out of > > the > > > > same pool over and over again) we should look for another > > planet to move > > to. > > > > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > > > > > > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red > > giant > > > > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around > > in 80 > > > > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to > > recent > > > > studies). > > > > > > > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few > > clouds of soot > > in > > > > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and > > close the > > hole > > > > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > Belgium > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > E-mail: > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > My own web-site: > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > Dear Axel, > > > > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, > > "thank You Axel" > > > > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot > > and sent too > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > > > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > > > > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > > > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > > > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory > > conclusions. > > > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid > > that? > > > > > Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 16 18:50:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Aug 16 17:50:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <000101c36426$58fe46e0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3F3ED125.13A@Tomaszewski.net> CO2 has been rising for at least the past 7000 years. See http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/l/dlr17/NewPhyt.pdf for one such study that uses an interesting approach from fossil ginko leaves. This is a complex issue and people appear to be only part of the problem. The carbon cycle appears to be more complex than the classic models and we are still trying to understand it. Axel Emmermann wrote: > > -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general plantlife. > Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively > measured currently in the Matto Grosso) > -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. Continental drought > as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) > -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... > temperature rises. > -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator > -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises > dramatically > -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster > -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes unstable and > methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is > easily transformed in more CO2. > -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 (and O2, so > fish die too) > -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and > organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. (If I recall > right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) > -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the Oil Tycoons > who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, > pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's nobody around > to see the irony of it... (ROFL > > Like it? > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the period of the > > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. The Siberian > > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming > > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple of degrees > is > > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on > the > > > > earth. > > > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all species survived > > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > > basalt-flows, > > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. > (LOL, > > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... naturally, > IF > > > there's a problem. > > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel > Emmermann > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean > > > fusion! > > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > > that has to > > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher measures. > > > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > > know exactly > > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > > don't know, we > > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > > button or time > > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > > (and maybe to > > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > > have a 50% > > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > > planet in their > > > > > hands. > > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of the worlds > > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > > pestilences... > > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > > > > > as a HUGE > > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > Belgium > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a > fellow > > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > > and that by > > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma > of > > > the > > > > > left > > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > > amputate the > > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first I need the > > > money > > > > > and > > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what would you do? > > > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global > > > warming > > > > > if > > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > > will only > > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by fraction of > a > > > > > degree. > > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > > country has > > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > > loudest about > > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held > as > > > > > anathema > > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > > large scale > > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your neighbour says it > is > > > not > > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > > experiment to > > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! Still, small > > > steps > > > > > like > > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense > and > > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, informative messages > I > > > see > > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > > Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 00:59:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lea Silanos) Date: Sat Aug 16 23:59:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hi! I'm new to the list Message-ID: Hi! I'm new to the list and would like to briefly introduce myself. I'm in my mid-20's and have been a rockhound for about the past 12 years. I currently live in Utah, which has so many wonderful collecting sites. One of my favorite places is the geode bed out by Dugway. Sincerely, Lea   ------------------------------------------ Tired of spam? Get ------------------------------------------ advanced junk mail protection ------------------------------------------ with MSN 8. ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 02:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dave West) Date: Sun Aug 17 01:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hi! I'm new to the list References: Message-ID: <002401c3649b$da8f2ab0$6800a8c0@CPQ28298264587> Welcome Lea, You will enjoy this list, I'm sure. I have been here for a few months, but no question seems to be able to "stump" this list. As a rookie, I have learned a lot here. DaveW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lea Silanos" To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 2:58 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Hi! I'm new to the list > Hi! I'm new to the list and would like to briefly introduce myself. I'm in my mid-20's and have been a rockhound for about the past 12 years. I currently live in Utah, which has so many wonderful collecting sites. One of my favorite places is the geode bed out by Dugway. > Sincerely, > > Lea From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 06:14:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Ron) Date: Sun Aug 17 05:14:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite Question References: <3F3E6B21.7C7F29BE@att.net> Message-ID: Hello Don, Thank you for all the great information on the pyrite. - Ron > > > > Just a fast question about Pyrite. I > > Pyrite takes many forms, all of them variations of the isometric > (sometimes called "cubic") system. > Enjoy your pyrites! > > Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <008601c364e3$c3321920$07ab77d5@pandora.be> >Maybe you could sell that script to one of the >Hollywood disaster movie >producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. Nah... too depressing ;-))) It' s someting I picked up on the National Geographic Channel a couple of weeks ago... or was it "Panorama" on BBC2... or "Overleven" on our Belgian "Canvas Channel"... I' not sure which one, I watch them all to get an unbiased view on such topics. (You didn't think I dreamt this up, did you? ;-))))))) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? Maybe you could sell that script to one of the Hollywood disaster movie producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 13:26 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general plantlife. > Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively > measured currently in the Matto Grosso) > -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. Continental drought > as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) > -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... > temperature rises. > -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator > -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises > dramatically > -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster > -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes > unstable and > methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is > easily transformed in more CO2. > -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 (and O2, so > fish die too) > -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and > organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. > (If I recall > right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) > -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the Oil Tycoons > who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, > pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's > nobody around > to see the irony of it... (ROFL > > Like it? > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the > period of the > > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. The Siberian > > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not global warming > > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple of degrees > is > > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > > > Bryan > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life continued on > the > > > > earth. > > > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all species survived > > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > > basalt-flows, > > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. > (LOL, > > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... naturally, > IF > > > there's a problem. > > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel > Emmermann > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only if you mean > > > fusion! > > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > > that has to > > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher > measures. > > > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > > know exactly > > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > > don't know, we > > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > > button or time > > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > > (and maybe to > > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > > have a 50% > > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > > planet in their > > > > > hands. > > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of > the worlds > > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > > pestilences... > > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that qualifies > > > > > as a HUGE > > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > Belgium > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a > fellow > > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > > and that by > > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may have sarcoma > of > > > the > > > > > left > > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > > amputate the > > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first > I need the > > > money > > > > > and > > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what > would you do? > > > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can 'fix' global > > > warming > > > > > if > > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > > will only > > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by > fraction of > a > > > > > degree. > > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > > country has > > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > > loudest about > > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible solution is held > as > > > > > anathema > > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > > large scale > > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your > neighbour says it > is > > > not > > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't know if it is > > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > > experiment to > > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! > Still, small > > > steps > > > > > like > > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry common sense > and > > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, > informative messages > I > > > see > > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:28:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:28:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <008c01c364e4$dd01a720$07ab77d5@pandora.be> Another documentary I saw.... it seems that you have to look at the "bulge" from a large distance because of it's size. I'm not familiar with the details. I'd like to go there before it blows it's lid. I recall seeing magnificent landscapes in the documentary. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:55 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Are you talking about the possible Lake Yellowstone gas eruptions? I thought > the park people were saying that this was not volcanic in origin. But the > Yellowstone eruptions along with the Long Valley Caldera eeruption were very > large. Long Valley has had increased activity for a decade or so now. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > If I recall right, Yellowstone's previous eruption created a > > blanket of ash > > of several tens of meters thick over a SERIOUS part of the North American > > continent. Some of the finest dinosaur-fossils are found in it. > > > > I don't pray because I'm not religious but I'm willing to make an exeption > > here. I'll pray that Yellowstone won't pop without a serious advance > > warning. You don't want to be within a 1000 miles when it goes if you're > > downwind of it. Those caldera eruptions will dwarf even Pinatubo or > > Krakatau. > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 5:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is > > > bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into > > > the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll > > throw this on > > the > > > > list too ;-))) > > > > > > > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) > > lies > > > > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > > > > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > > > > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make > > ecological > > > > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're > > smart > > > > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose > > them out of > > the > > > > same pool over and over again) we should look for another > > planet to move > > to. > > > > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > > > > > > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red > > giant > > > > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around > > in 80 > > > > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to > > recent > > > > studies). > > > > > > > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few > > clouds of soot > > in > > > > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and > > close the > > hole > > > > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > Belgium > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > E-mail: > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > My own web-site: > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > Dear Axel, > > > > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, > > "thank You Axel" > > > > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot > > and sent too > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > > > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > > > > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > > > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > > > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory > > conclusions. > > > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid > > that? > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:34:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:34:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hi Folks, Global or not, it's been hot and dry here in northern Idaho and wildfire is a daily consideration. Had a grass fire about 20 miles from here yesterday that filled the valley with smoke as we watched water tankers fly over through the haze. Due to fire hazard there's no work in the woods (no chainsaws, Cats, etc.) between 1pm and 1am, so neighbor Greg is logging his land (selectively) early mornings to make space for a new pond. The Forest Service calls this restriction "Hoot Owl" in the woods. So cute! Julie has been doing logger's hours to beat the heat (though she's had to light the woodstove a few times in the early AM) so I dragged her out camping on Emerald Creek Tuesday night, planning to spend Wednesday playing in the cold mud digging star garnet. However I forgot that the site is closed mid-week so that report will have to come later. We camped on the creek and tried to catch the Persied meteor shower but the full moon lit up our small slice of sky. And a few weeks without a break put us in our bags early. After a surprisingly chilly night (no camp fires right now), Wednesday heated up quickly while we sat with our feet in the creek and panned for garnet sand. They named it Emerald Creek but it's so full of garnet that the sand is purple where it piles against gravel. An unspoken agreement between Julie and me kept us there for most of the day as we amassed about 30 pounds of small garnet crystals, chips and sand. At home I screened out a small amount of lapidary-size chunks and the remainder I plan to use between plates of mica schist as paving on the path to the outhouse. Should be quite disco when done and shouldn't requite a flashlight to find at night. We're trying to spruce the place up a bit so that Kreigh and Monica might come to ID some "mystery rocks" and weed my garden! John Micro Paradise From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:39:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dri) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:39:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: <3F3A6609.20405@cox.net> <00c401c361bc$fe4fe2a0$979f77d5@pandora.be> <3F3B0C7B.6090202@cox.net> <004c01c36401$98f761c0$b4ab77d5@pandora.be> <3F3E52D2.769C@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <02ce01c364e5$c63bc4c0$6701a8c0@dslverizon.net> And do not forget Glacier Peak, North of Mt Rainier (Tahoma) which is active, but has bee minding its' manners for a long time with but occasional vents of Steam. Glacier Peak is located in the Darrington, WA area. Dri-Anna WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 08:54 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Mt. Rainier is starting to show signs of waking up. Yellowstone is > bulging. If either one goes off we probably will get enough dust into > the atmosphere that we won't have to launch any rockets full of soot. > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > Hi Teresa, I seem to have lost your e-mail address so I'll throw this on the > > list too ;-))) > > > > Much, if not most of our problems ( American as well as Belgian ;;-))) lies > > therein that we have built ourself a nice cosy way of life and that we > > cannot accept the fact that it is the surest road to calamity. > > If we allow the actual "industrial-financial" system to make ecological > > decisions, we are as good as dead. Since it doesn't look like we're smart > > enough to change our way of selecting our leaders (we choose them out of the > > same pool over and over again) we should look for another planet to move to. > > I'll ask if NASA has any answers (hahaha...) > > > > Seriously, would we have to worry about the sun becoming a bloated red giant > > in 2 or 3 billion years? I hope the human civilization is still around in 80 > > years (that's what it takes for the climat to "runaway" according to recent > > studies). > > > > If the weather get's too hot we could maybe launch a few clouds of soot in > > an orbit around the planet. Keep out some of the heat... (and close the hole > > in the ozon layer while we're at it). > > > > Cheers > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "TA Masters" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 6:13 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > Dear Axel, > > > When I penned my message, I had intended to also say, "thank You Axel" > > > for presenting the impetus for this discussion. I forgot and sent too > > > quickly. > > > > > > Emotions frequently tend to bring out the worst in people. Lots of > > > evidence of that in the world today. > > > > > > Today I heard invitations to the 2004 Summer Olympics in Greece were > > > sent out to 201 Countries. Just which government would lead the > > > experiment, and how many of the others would accept the conclusion? > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? > > > Teresa > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <009201c364e6$fa979680$07ab77d5@pandora.be> > O, Axel don't worry about Yellowstone. You're practically sitting on your > own Yellowstone, the Eifel! The last huge Eifel eruption was the one which > formed Maria Laach. Debris blocked the Rhine river and flooded large parts > of Germany. When the debris gave was northern Germany anf Holland where > flooded. Ash fell well into Sweden. It's a good three hour drive from where I live... I heard that some rocks were spewed clear into space that there is still some debris in orbit. Sounds incredible but it seems to be true. >The thing is that the Eifel has a > peculiar secuence of eruptions. It tends to be quiet for about 100.000 years > and then suddenly have a huge explosive eruption, followed by 10 milenia of > milder eruptions. Today we are about 100.000 years past the last activity. > There are still magma chamber below the Eifel and in many lakes there you > can see CO2 boubling from below...... Saw that last year. I took an American friend from the FMS (Don Newsome from UV SYSTEMS Inc. http://www.jquiring.com/uvsys2/default.asp) on a field trip there last summer. In the quarries you can find some real goodies if you're a micromounter and also some nice fluorescent stuf (blue hauyn and nosean that fluoresces orange). Obviously, since Don is the founder of the Fluorescent Mineral Society, we were there to find fluorescent specimens. Cheers From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:50:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:50:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <008601c364e3$c3321920$07ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: LOL you don't think either of those programs is unbiased do you? Both have a profound political slant. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 12:20 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > >Maybe you could sell that script to one of the > >Hollywood disaster movie > >producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. > > Nah... too depressing ;-))) > > It' s someting I picked up on the National Geographic Channel a couple of > weeks ago... or was it "Panorama" on BBC2... or "Overleven" on our Belgian > "Canvas Channel"... I' not sure which one, I watch them all to get an > unbiased view on such topics. > (You didn't think I dreamt this up, did you? ;-))))))) > > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:52 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > Maybe you could sell that script to one of the Hollywood disaster movie > producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 13:26 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general > plantlife. > > Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively > > measured currently in the Matto Grosso) > > -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. > Continental drought > > as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) > > -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... > > temperature rises. > > -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator > > -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises > > dramatically > > -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster > > -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes > > unstable and > > methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is > > easily transformed in more CO2. > > -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 > (and O2, so > > fish die too) > > -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and > > organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. > > (If I recall > > right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) > > -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the > Oil Tycoons > > who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, > > pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's > > nobody around > > to see the irony of it... (ROFL > > > > Like it? > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the > > period of the > > > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. > The Siberian > > > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not > global warming > > > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > > > > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple > of degrees > > is > > > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of > Axel Emmermann > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life > continued on > > the > > > > > earth. > > > > > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all > species survived > > > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > > > basalt-flows, > > > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. > > (LOL, > > > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... > naturally, > > IF > > > > there's a problem. > > > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel > > Emmermann > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only > if you mean > > > > fusion! > > > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > > > that has to > > > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher > > measures. > > > > > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > > > know exactly > > > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > > > don't know, we > > > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > > > button or time > > > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > > > (and maybe to > > > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > > > have a 50% > > > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > > > planet in their > > > > > > hands. > > > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of > > the worlds > > > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > > > pestilences... > > > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that > qualifies > > > > > > as a HUGE > > > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a > > fellow > > > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > > > and that by > > > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may > have sarcoma > > of > > > > the > > > > > > left > > > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > > > amputate the > > > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first > > I need the > > > > money > > > > > > and > > > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what > > would you do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can > 'fix' global > > > > warming > > > > > > if > > > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > > > will only > > > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by > > fraction of > > a > > > > > > degree. > > > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > > > country has > > > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > > > loudest about > > > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible > solution is held > > as > > > > > > anathema > > > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > > > large scale > > > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your > > neighbour says it > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't > know if it is > > > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > > > experiment to > > > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the > atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! > > Still, small > > > > steps > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry > common sense > > and > > > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, > > informative messages > > I > > > > see > > > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 11:54:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Aug 17 10:54:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <00a701c364e8$8ae109a0$07ab77d5@pandora.be> > I think I might be using the wrong tone in these messages. I respect your >opinions but just disagree on this issue. I don't want this to degrade to a >personal shouting match. So I'll try to tone down my replies. But this seems >to be an issue where people just have to agree to disagree. That's a mighty nice way to put it... no argument from me this time ;-)))) I think Teresa had it pinned down quite nicely... it's something we all need to think about. Hard! Judging from the response on the list we have stirred quite some emotions and I believe that is a good thing. Also nice is the way that different people are pulling the discussion back on topic as it carries on. The list lives, no doubt about it. Cheers to you Axel From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 13:26:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Aug 17 12:26:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <010301c364f5$5843a860$07ab77d5@pandora.be> I'm so glad you noticed... My wife is often a bit annoyed if I interupt the narrator with exclamations like: "hey pal, what are you saying! Grow a brain" or "who's payroll are you on?" Who pays for those docu's? Once you get a sponsor you are no longer a scientist... you become a messenger. It's like that commercial from SHELL that says how much they care for the environment... hilarious. Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 7:49 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? LOL you don't think either of those programs is unbiased do you? Both have a profound political slant. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 12:20 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > >Maybe you could sell that script to one of the > >Hollywood disaster movie > >producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. > > Nah... too depressing ;-))) > > It' s someting I picked up on the National Geographic Channel a couple of > weeks ago... or was it "Panorama" on BBC2... or "Overleven" on our Belgian > "Canvas Channel"... I' not sure which one, I watch them all to get an > unbiased view on such topics. > (You didn't think I dreamt this up, did you? ;-))))))) > > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 8:52 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > Maybe you could sell that script to one of the Hollywood disaster movie > producters. One of the Asteroid movie people. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 13:26 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > -More heat and CO2 favors growth in the rainforest and general > plantlife. > > Biomass increases rapidly (which is being observed and quantitatively > > measured currently in the Matto Grosso) > > -Heat rises over treshold and triggers climat changes. > Continental drought > > as result. (through ocean currents like El Niño) > > -Rainforests die and rotting AND burning biomass produces more CO2... > > temperature rises. > > -Deserts grow rapidly on either side of equator > > -Lack of plantlife reduces absorption of CO2 globally. CO2 rises > > dramatically > > -More heat warms up the oceans slightly but ever faster > > -Methane-hydrate-ice (great quantities at ocean floors) becomes > > unstable and > > methane is released in atmosphere. Methane is also greenhouse gas but is > > easily transformed in more CO2. > > -Higher water-temperature reduces oceans capacity to store CO2 > (and O2, so > > fish die too) > > -At this point we have to wait until CO2 is captured again in rocks and > > organisms. We now have say globally a SERIOUS increase in temp. > > (If I recall > > right : about 10 to 15° C depending on the source) > > -Ice cap of Antarctica slides in the ocean, taking with it the > Oil Tycoons > > who where rich enough to buy some real estate there. A lot of dollars, > > pounds, euros etc... float on the water. Unfortunately there's > > nobody around > > to see the irony of it... (ROFL > > > > Like it? > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 6:40 PM > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > Now you are engaging in hyperbole. I wasn't referring to the > > period of the > > > Siberian or Deccan traps or other mass extinction periods. > The Siberian > > > traps supposedly triggered the Permian glacial period not > global warming > > > IIRC. Try the Pennsylvanian or Eocene, hot but swarming with life. > > > > > > Suppose you detail your theory on how an increase of a couple > of degrees > > is > > > going to lead to mass extinctions. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of > Axel Emmermann > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:17 > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian wrote: > > > > > > > > > Your dire predictions just are not historically accurate, global > > > > > temperatures have been much higher in the past and life > continued on > > the > > > > > earth. > > > > > > > > Yes indeed! In some cases even as much as 10% of all > species survived > > > > (mainly ocean-dwellers). In another case, that of the Siberian > > > > basalt-flows, > > > > a mere 2% was allowed to live on.... You are absolutely right. Life > > > > continued... I wonder which species will take over when we're gone. > > (LOL, > > > > pardon my sense of humor please...) > > > > > > > > >You still have not put for a practical solution for the problem, if > > > > > there is a problem in the first place. > > > > > > > > I fear there is none... too many people living in denial... > naturally, > > IF > > > > there's a problem. > > > > I found this among a few dozen others... > > > > http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/index.cfm > > > > > > > > Axel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Axel > > Emmermann > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 09:01 > > > > > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess you may be right about nuclear power but only > if you mean > > > > fusion! > > > > > > Wanna go there? > > > > > > What would happen if "cold fusion" were to surface again? > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed Kyoto is too little too late but it's a mentality change > > > > > > that has to > > > > > > come BEFORE the public can be pursuaded to accept harsher > > measures. > > > > > > > > > > > > I still think my analogy is right on target because: we do not > > > > > > know exactly > > > > > > whether GW is caused by human activity or not. Because we > > > > don't know, we > > > > > > have to act like it is. We do not have the luxury of a reset > > > > > > button or time > > > > > > travel. We get ONE shot to decide. The banks and the industry > > > > > > (and maybe to > > > > > > a very very insignificantly small extent also a few politicians) > > > > > > have a 50% > > > > > > chance of holding the life of every living thing on this > > > > planet in their > > > > > > hands. > > > > > > Stopping ALL CO2 emission NOW would probably kill 3/4 of > > the worlds > > > > > > population (economic crisis, famine and resulting wars and > > > > pestilences... > > > > > > Not stopping it may kill 4/4.... or not... I think that > qualifies > > > > > > as a HUGE > > > > > > gamble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 1:22 AM > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is a rather poor analogy. A better one would be this: a > > fellow > > > > > > > approaches you on the street and says that he is a surgeon > > > > and that by > > > > > > > watching you walk he is of the opinion that you may > have sarcoma > > of > > > > the > > > > > > left > > > > > > > leg. He demands that you follow him to the hospital so he can > > > > > > amputate the > > > > > > > leg. You say doctor are you sure, he says no but first > > I need the > > > > money > > > > > > and > > > > > > > secondly you can't afford to take the risk. Now what > > would you do? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First thing no one has suggested anything which can > 'fix' global > > > > warming > > > > > > if > > > > > > > indeed it is occurring and is caused by CO2. The Kyoto plan > > > > will only > > > > > > > fractionally change the projected temperature rise by > > fraction of > > a > > > > > > degree. > > > > > > > But putting it into effect would cause economic havoc. Not one > > > > > > country has > > > > > > > tried to put this into effect even the countries who are the > > > > > > loudest about > > > > > > > the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The data just isn't there and the only possible > solution is held > > as > > > > > > anathema > > > > > > > by the eco-lobby. That is nuclear power the only practical > > > > large scale > > > > > > > source of non-polluting power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suppose you find a gun on your doorstep. Your > > neighbour says it > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > > loaded but your other neighbour says he doesn't > know if it is > > > > > > > > loaded. Do you > > > > > > > > want to put this gun to your head and pul the trigger? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I were to ask the government permission to carry out an > > > > > > experiment to > > > > > > > > prove that global warming doesn't exist and that the > > > > > > experiment involves > > > > > > > > releasing a billion tons of CO2 into the > atmosphere... Do you > > > > > > > > think I would > > > > > > > > get the permission? No way! They would lock me up! > > Still, small > > > > steps > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > the Kyo...... oh well.... let's not go there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no emetion involved here... just bonedry > common sense > > and > > > > > > > > intellect..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Axel Emmermann > > > > > > > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > > > > > > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > > > > > > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > > > > > > > B-2640 Mortsel > > > > > > > > Belgium > > > > > > > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > > > > > > > E-mail: > > > > > > > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > > > > > > > Visit our homepage: > > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > > > > > > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > > > > > > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > > > > > > > My own web-site: > > > > > > > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "TA Masters" > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 6:23 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > > > > I appreciate the non emotional, rational, > > informative messages > > I > > > > see > > > > > > > > > this morning from Tom Yancey and Bill Cordua. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both. > > > > > > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 13:38:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (relic hunter) Date: Sun Aug 17 12:38:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hi! I'm new to the list Message-ID: Welcome Welcome to the Rockhound list. We look forward to hearing your stories and accounts. Craig Dirty Rockhounds http://www.Dirtyrockhounds.com >From: "Lea Silanos" >Reply-To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] Hi! I'm new to the list >Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:58:01 -0600 > > > Hi! I'm new to the list and would like to briefly introduce myself. >I'm in my mid-20's and have been a rockhound for about the past 12 years. >I currently live in Utah, which has so many wonderful collecting sites. >One of my favorite places is the geode bed out by Dugway. >Sincerely, > >Lea > > >  > > > > >------------------------------------------ >Tired of spam? Get >------------------------------------------ >advanced junk mail protection >------------------------------------------ > with MSN 8. >------------------------------------------ > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >text/html (html body -- converted) >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 13:53:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Aug 17 12:53:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Labor Day Sale on Rough & Slabs, Sunstones Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030817124328.01d10650@mail.spiritone.com> I am broke so I am staying put this Labor Day. To keep myself occupied and my mind off of Virgin Valley I am offering most of my lapidary rough and slabs for 50% off through Labor Day. This includes Dust Devil sunstones. Just order half of what you need if you are using the PayPal cart. Here's the link to the sale page: http://orerockon.com/lapidary.htm Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 14:23:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD) Date: Sun Aug 17 13:23:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global Warming Message-ID: <008a01c364fe$404f1060$4f3b0343@uswest.net> The information about the Eifel was interesting, but most posts on this = list display a dismal lack of specific information--especially for a = scientifically based bunch. Will the poster of the original Eifel = information please go back and fill in some gaps. Where is the Eifel, = what is it , describe the formation and age, and specifics of the = history. The brief information offered appears to be only a glimpse = into a very interesting geological story. Danny / Seattle --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 15:02:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Sun Aug 17 14:02:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global Warming In-Reply-To: <008a01c364fe$404f1060$4f3b0343@uswest.net> Message-ID: Hi Danny, Sorry I was not aware the Eifel is not as well known in the US as it is here in Europe. OK a brief geological description of the Eifel. The Eifel is an volcanic massif in Germany, just east of the Belgian border. (Roughly southwest of Cologne). The basis of the Eifel is formed by devonian sandstones and limestone. On top of these layer sediments from almost all younger ages where deposited. In the early tertiary the a massive uplift started occuring, accompagnied by large scale volcanic activity. Allthough the last recorded eruption in the Eifel occured about 10.000 years ago, the uplift of the mountains still continues (as well as the volcanic CO2 emiisions). The Eifel is world famous with rockhouds for a couple of reasons. Most eruption where basaltic. As mentioned are the volcanoes situated on old devonian limestone. Magma in the magma chamber reacted with the limestone. Pieces of limestone got metasomatically altered and they floated around in the magma as xenoliths. There are different kinds of xenoliths formed in the Eifel all with their own interesting paragenese. Meanwhile a vast amount of rare minerals is found in mainly the Bellerberg and Emmelberg volcanoes (but there are dozens more volcanoes in the area, producing also interesting stuff). Interesting minerals include: Bellerbergite, Stratlingite, Brownmillerite, Jeremejewite, Ternesite, Volborthite, Roedingite, Baddeleyite, Bustamite, Hjortdahlite, Lavenite, Rhabdophane, Rozenite, Wohlerite, Afwillite, Willhendersonite, Jasmundite etc etc etc. Besides that there are some lead mines in the sandstone which produced great pyromorfite and the slates and limestones do contain nice fossils (i.e. crinoides, palmtrees etc) It is really a shame you did not know this area! :-) Cheers, Maurice -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of DANIEL-HARRY STEWARD Sent: zondag 17 augustus 2003 22:29 To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Global Warming The information about the Eifel was interesting, but most posts on this list display a dismal lack of specific information--especially for a scientifically based bunch. Will the poster of the original Eifel information please go back and fill in some gaps. Where is the Eifel, what is it , describe the formation and age, and specifics of the history. The brief information offered appears to be only a glimpse into a very interesting geological story. Danny / Seattle --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 15:03:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Sun Aug 17 14:03:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Message-ID: <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Hi Some of us arenophiles would like some sand from that area. GeorgiaO __..--..__..--..__ John Siebel wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Global or not, it's been hot and dry here in northern Idaho and wildfire is > a daily consideration. Had a grass fire about 20 miles from here yesterday > that filled the valley with smoke as we watched water tankers fly over > through the haze. Due to fire hazard there's no work in the woods (no > chainsaws, Cats, etc.) between 1pm and 1am, so neighbor Greg is logging his > land (selectively) early mornings to make space for a new pond. The Forest > Service calls this restriction "Hoot Owl" in the woods. So cute! > > Julie has been doing logger's hours to beat the heat (though she's had to > light the woodstove a few times in the early AM) so I dragged her out > camping on Emerald Creek Tuesday night, planning to spend Wednesday playing > in the cold mud digging star garnet. However I forgot that the site is > closed mid-week so that report will have to come later. We camped on the > creek and tried to catch the Persied meteor shower but the full moon lit up > our small slice of sky. And a few weeks without a break put us in our bags > early. > > After a surprisingly chilly night (no camp fires right now), Wednesday > heated up quickly while we sat with our feet in the creek and panned for > garnet sand. They named it Emerald Creek but it's so full of garnet that the > sand is purple where it piles against gravel. An unspoken agreement between > Julie and me kept us there for most of the day as we amassed about 30 pounds > of small garnet crystals, chips and sand. > > At home I screened out a small amount of lapidary-size chunks and the > remainder I plan to use between plates of mica schist as paving on the path > to the outhouse. Should be quite disco when done and shouldn't requite a > flashlight to find at night. We're trying to spruce the place up a bit so > that Kreigh and Monica might come to ID some "mystery rocks" and weed my > garden! > > John > Micro Paradise > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 15:36:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Sun Aug 17 14:36:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global Warming References: Message-ID: <3F3FF540.E5143117@att.net> Maurice de Graaf wrote: > > Sorry I was not aware the Eifel is not as well known in the US as it is here > in Europe. Isn't Idar-Oberstein near the Eifel? Or is that closer to the Hunsrück? Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 15:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 17 14:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hello everyone, I'm back Message-ID: Hey people, Im finally back from a long vacation off the internet. Being electronically challenged by not having a computer for the last year and a half I realize...I missed you guys. It's good to be back and on the rockhounds list. There is so much to learn here. I see some familiar people. I live on the Texas coast and have few places to collect here. All the sand I want tho. I've collected for most of my life. I remember when I was around 3 or 4 and my older brother took me to a man's rock shop in Dallas. Could hardly see on the counters but I remember the big rock saw. The owner let me push the big green button to cut a geode. So I guess my brother's responsible for my love of rocks. It's a neat thing to look at my collection and remember when and where they when i picked them up. Most of em anyway. gotta go, Kevin --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 15:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sun Aug 17 14:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] The pollucite Rushes of 1895, 1925, and 1955 References: <001701c36403$0108cfa0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <003401c36509$93797ef0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Doh! While Frederick Soddy did most of the things I said, he DIDN'T study the chemistry of cesium and uranium. This was done by Bertram Borden Boltwood who was eventually a resident of Hancock Point, Maine. I will have a slightly expanded story with pictures on my website in a few days and will notify you when it can be read. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Van" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 10:30 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] The pollucite Rushes of 1895, 1925, and 1955 > As a tangent to the halogen issue, the alkali Cesium has a similar > experimental history. There were 3 pollucite rushes in Maine as a result. > Originally, pollucite wasn't recognized to contain Cs. The element gets its > name from the color of some important spectral lines and were discovered by > Robert Bunsen and Gustav Kirchhoff and cesium and rubidium were first found > in brine in 1860. A couple of years later Cs and Rb was found in lepidolite > and there was a minor rush for it at Mount Mica and Mount Rubellite by Yale > chemists/mineralogists. When Cs was discovered in pollucite, there wasn't > enough of it to use as an ore. By 1890, pollucite was found at Mount > Rubellite and the tourmaline miners were distracted occasionally by the > Federal currency being offered for pollucite. Most of the Mount Rubellite > pollucite was consumed in studying the chemical compounds of Cs. Yale > researchers, including Oscar D. Allen and Horace Wells, published over 30 > papers on the subject. One of the students who studied the chemistry of > cesium and uranium was Frederick Soddy and he eventually recognized that > elements had isotopes. He probably would have studied something completely > different if his advisors weren't so enthusiastic about Maine cesium. > Eventually, there were enough papers on the chemistry of cesium and there > wasn't a lot of Mount Rubellite Pollucite left to play with anyway and the > rush, as they all do, fizzled. > > When Perien Dudley discovered pollucite at Mount Mica about 1914, no one > cared. However, when the electronics industry found you could build a better > radio tube by including some pollucite in one, GE became feral on the topic. > Ed Bailey of Andover, Maine had raised Dick Nevel as a foster child and got > him into mining. Nevel sought a lease from Freeland Howe Jr. (that's right, > not George Howe, the man who named watermelon tourmaline) in 1925 and tried > to find more pollucite at Mount Mica. Nevel did find several places in > Buckfield, probably with the help of Perien Dudley, who lived in Buckfield. > Meanwhile, Bailey discovered pollucite at Newry. Soon, GE had about four or > five mines working for pollucite, and GE sent Nevel to California in the > winter to find more pollucite at Fred Rynerson's tourmaline mines in Pala. > No more pollucite was found during the time and Nevel returned and > concentrated on pollucite mining in Oxford County until the pegmatites were > exhausted and GE discovered that cesium was destroying the tubes it was > supposed to help. This was in 1930. (Nevel even tried to rework Mount > Rubellite, but he didn't find much to excite him until 1934 when he found a > nice tourmaline pocket with gemmy red tipped tourmalines with green prisms.) > The second pollucite rush fizzled. > > In the early 1950's, Stan Perham was working a number of mines in Oxford > County because there was a bounty being paid on strategic minerals needed in > the Korean War. There were a succession of exploration pits, BB number 1-6, > which yielded little mica. On Friday, August 13, 1954, the BB #7 pit > produced a remarkable gem tourmaline pocket with tourmaline of such a > stunning green that some crystals were equal to the green crystals found in > 1910-1913 at the Berry quarry in Poland, Maine (then regarded as the best > green tourmalines known. Best for color of gemstones, not for crystal shape, > etc.). There was a quantity of pollucite discovered near the pocket and > coincidentally, the US was working on a rocket fuel formula for space > exploration. (Yes, Virginia, the USA was interested in space exploration > before Sputnik). There was a man in Massachusetts who had a cesium-based > formula for rocket propulsion. A Maine cesium rush was again on. A cesium > mining company was formed - TC Mining Co. (Trap Corner Mining Co. - Trap > Corner was where the Perham gem and mineral store was and is.) Werner von > Braun was visited by the Perhams and there were dreams of riches among all > the share holders. Unfortunately, the cesium-based formula was a closely > held secret by the Massachusetts chemist. Not unlike the tactics of Joseph > McCarthy, "I have in my hand a list of 87 known Communists in the Federal > Government" - McCarthy was only holding his laundry list - the Massachusetts > chemist never showed the formula to the space scientists. Equally > unfortunate was the chemist dying without giving notice, just before TC > Mining was to get a lucrative mining contract from the chemical company > which was expected to extract the space age element. A search of the man's > lab and home revealed no trace of the formula. Equally important, someone in > the government asked the important question, "How much pollucite can we hope > to get?" With known reserves of about a hundred pounds and no known recipe, > the third pollucite rush fizzled. > > Sic transit gloria mundi. > > Today there are big reserves of pollucite at Bernic Lake, Bikita, and > elsewhere, all waiting for their own rushes. > > Van > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:13 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Halogens or hoax? > > > > The halogens are present as a gas and allows the evaporated atoms from the > > filiment to be redeposited on the filament thus extending the life of the > > lamps: > > > > "What materials are used in halogen lamps? There are two kinds of bulbs > used > > in halogen lamps: transparent and translucent quartz bulbs. Materials > inside > > the halogen lamp include tungsten filament, molybdenum foil, and filling > > gases consisting of a combination of Nitrogen (N2), Argon (AR), Krypton > (Kr) > > and a small amount of halogen gas made up of iodine (I), bromine (Br), > > chlorine (Cl), and fluorine (F). The base of the lamp is usually made of > > steatite or heat-resistant metal." > > > > Lots of other info on this site about the lamps: > > > > http://www.ushio.com/faq.htm > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > Well, maybe not a hoax, but as I was working with yet another "quartz > > > halogen" lamp, I really began to question the meaning of the term. > > > Looking carefully at the contents of the lamp, I see no liquids or > > > solids (besides the filament), so that would rule out elemental bromine > > > or iodine--unless they are in such small quantities that I don't see > > > them. Let us pray there is no astatine floating around either. That > > > leaves fluorine and chlorine, and I need not describe the inherent > > > problems with those. A web search yielded plenty of info, but none of > > > the search strings I tried yielded the magic formula. Might the active > > > ingredient be a halogenated compound? Or has there simply been some > > > misappropriation of the term? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 15:51:07 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 17 14:51:07 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global Warming Message-ID: <18c.1e8af865.2c7152ba@aol.com> In a message dated 8/17/03 2:02:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mauricedegraaf@hetnet.nl writes: > It is really a shame you did not know this area! :-) > > Thanks. Now we know more than we did -- and I think that is what this list is all about. Grant Chico, CA USA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 16:24:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Sun Aug 17 15:24:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Eifel In-Reply-To: <3F3FF540.E5143117@att.net> Message-ID: No Idar is not part of the Eifel, it is much further south and much older. The Idar rock is of permian age. It is the same volcanic activity as Moschellandsberg, the famous mercury mine. Cheers, Maurice > Sorry I was not aware the Eifel is not as well known in the US as it is here > in Europe. Isn't Idar-Oberstein near the Eifel? Or is that closer to the Hunsrück? Don _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 16:41:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 17 15:41:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <0AC3599B-CDB1-11D7-A5B8-000393B396CA@mac.com> References: <0AC3599B-CDB1-11D7-A5B8-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: Actually, the periodicity of glacial/interglacial ages is governed by large planetary cycles. The potential cooling of the planet as the Earth's orbit changes will not increase in speed because of the rapid warming currently underway. However, one very important thing to always keep in mind when considering the Earth's present climatic variability is that there is a degree of uncertainty surrounding predicted effects - not regarding the "what will happen", "but the how much". We do not have historical data to which we can compare this rapid warming. In other words - don't expect the warming trend to slow or decrease within the next 200 years - translates into continued sea level rise, melting of continental glaciers, increased frequency and range of vector borne diseases and the direct effects of heat related illnesses, and increased loss of biodiversity. We just don't know how much of any of these to expect. The climate models (and the Hadley and Canadian models are currently the most widely accepted) give us a best guess picture of the future. >great info, but a question. won't a quicker approach to the high temp. between glacial periods simply mean a quicker descent into an ice age? >KMOn Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 02:47 PM, gailscow@gso.uri.edu wrote: > >>We are indeed in the midst of an interglacial period. However, we >>have tweaked the system due to our activities and instead of slowly >>heading back toward a glacial period, we are warming very quickly >>(comparatively speaking). >It is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways. - Buddha > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds -- **************************************************** Gail Scowcroft Office: 401-874-6724 Associate Director FAX: 401-874-6486 Marine Programs University of Rhode Island South Ferry Rd. Narragansett, RI 02882 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 16:41:10 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Aug 17 15:41:10 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: from "J Bryan Kramer" at Aug 14, 2003 04:44:02 PM Message-ID: <200308142059.QAA05963@gateway.sii-nh.com> the multiplier is more like 250 => 5 billion years left (halfway through a 10 billion year lifespan) > > Try multiplying that number by a thousand. > > Bryan > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory conclusions. > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do we avoid that? > > Teresa > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 16:41:16 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 17 15:41:16 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosp=?ISO-8859-1?B?aG9ycvbfbGVyaXRlXQ==?= In-Reply-To: <002a01c36339$c07fea00$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> References: <200308141814.h7EIElUd011561@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002a01c36339$c07fea00$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <1060960188.3f3cf7bc50f8b@mail.mways.co.uk> Hi All, Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded mindat.org as an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One unfortunate side effect of the success of the site is that people have started to believe that the site has complete and accurate information on everything. It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the site, and by its very nature it is a site that can never be complete. I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, totally valid, as the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have not had the time to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a good conversation with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his criticisms and input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows in the right directions for the future. The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making and not due to some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I wrote that managed to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This weekend I'll go through and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In the meantime, the Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a valid mineral species. And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not a valid species, please double-check with another reference source before relying on that information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! The data is getting better every day, but it's far from perfect. Regards, Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster Quoting Van : > Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with you that there > are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met some people > who are proud that they are contributors to sites which have an > "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the "willies". These guys are > nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable veterans, but the degree > of knowledgeableness must increase if you're putting info out there which > purports to be "authoritative". Authoritative has it origins in being an > author - peer reviewed and scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second > rate newsletter doesn't get you to the level required. > > On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets focused > into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. > > Caveat emptor. (more or less) > > Van > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 16:41:21 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (paranko) Date: Sun Aug 17 15:41:21 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock shop in hawaii Message-ID: <000a01c3646b$ac4e5980$d2aef143@pavilion> can you give me a listing of any in ohau, maui,kawaui. please e-mail to = paranko@netzero.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 17:41:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Aug 17 16:41:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? In-Reply-To: <200308142059.QAA05963@gateway.sii-nh.com> Message-ID: Well no, it's true that the sun probably has about 5 billion years of hydrogen left but after that it will go thru the red giant stage followed by a brief wolf-rayet stage and ending up as a white dwarf. And white dwarfs can last for a long long time. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of David R. Dick > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 15:59 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > the multiplier is more like 250 => 5 billion years left > (halfway through a 10 billion year lifespan) > > > > > Try multiplying that number by a thousand. > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory > conclusions. > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do > we avoid that? > > > Teresa > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 17 22:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Aug 17 21:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Preliminary Trip Report (Hawaii) Message-ID: <3F405234.30BA@Tomaszewski.net> Last winter one of my wife's brothers contacted us about having a family reunion in Hawai`i, offering to provide lodging via some timeshare magic if we would provide transportation. We said YES!, made flight arrangements, and I contacted Kitty and Bill Heacox offlist about collecting in the islands. Many messages later we accepted their most kind offer to spend some time with them and modified our travel arrangements. This is a preliminary field trip report of our just completed visit to the beautiful island state in the Pacific. A more complete report will be posted on my website in a week or two after I get our pictures developed and have time to post them to my website. Our first week was spent with family on the oldest of the islands, Kaua`i. Some of the family then spent a second week on Maui (that had been discussed as the original destination), but we went on to the newest island, Hawai`i, to visit with Kitty and Bill. The Hawaiian islands are the result of a plume or hotspot bringing magma up from deep in the earth's mantle forming a shield volcano. As the surface plates have moved over the hotspot a series of islands have formed. Hawai`i is the newest of the islands, but there is a new one forming that is expected to reach the ocean surface in another 5,000 years or so. Kaua`i is 3 to 5 million years old, and has eroded significantly from its original size, which was probably about as big as Hawai`i is today. The last volcanic eruptions on this island were around 400,000 years ago. There is strong evidence that there were at least two shield volcanos that produced the island, but the central Olokele member is usually claimed to be the single shield volcano that produced the island. A shield volcano starts our producing alkalic basalt (1%), then produces theoliitic basalt (97%), then post shield alkalic basalts (1%), and finishes with rejuvenated alkalic basalts (1%), which tend to be highly fluid. Hawai`i is in the last stage currently. BTW, when measured from the ocean floor the Hawaiian volcano's are taller than Mt. Everest (measured from sea level). Our first full day on Kaua`i we went on a sea cruise from the south side of the island with Captain Andy, around the west side, and went snorkeling along the Na Pali Coast. At one point we came across a group of 8 giant sea turtles. Sunset was unusually clear and we saw the 'green flash'. Many rainbows were seen, including a beautiful double; we saw at least one rainbow every day on the islands. The next day we hiked thru an interior tropical forest inland from Kapa`a. I collected some sedimentary mudstone composed of the brown volcanic 'dirt' that is characteristic of the island. I would add that the 'dirt' on Kaua`i stains so well it is actually used as a dye for cloth. The next day we hiked part of the Na Pali Coast and I collected some beautiful olivine. We swam at Hanakapi`ai Beach before our hike back out. Take lots of water and be prepared for some rugged terrain. The next day we took a helecopter tour of the island and interior, including Wai`ale`ale, which is claimed to be the wettest spot on earth, receiving between 400 and 650 inches of rain annually. On the dry side of the island we saw cactus. The contrasts on the island are truely remarkable. On our last full day we went collecting on Waipouli Beach and found some beautiful corals that had washed up. We continued around the island to a coffee plantation, and then on to visit Waimea Canyon, which is even more spectacular from the ground than it was from the air. We then went swimming and collected shells at Barking Sands. Returning around the island we went to a luau at Kilohana. We stayed in Princeville and found time for family fun too; many of our outings included others in the family. I found a rock shop in Hanalei (off the parking lot behind the Hammock Shop on the main drive; it is near to the breakfast restaurant and internet cafe) and purchased some beautiful calcite crystals on matrix that came from a coral/limestone quarry in Po`ipu. I mailed three boxes of what I had collected home before we went off to Hawai`i. Kitty and Bill quickly made us feel like family and old friends, and we found much to talk about during our visit, which turned out to be way too short. Kitty mentioned some of the high points of our visit, and I'm only going to do a little expansion here, leaving something for the full trip report on my website (coming soon). Our trip to Waipi`o Valley involved (required!!!) 4 wheel drive as the road down approaches a 45 degree grade; I was glad Kitty was driving because she had been there before. The valley was amazing and I collected some black sand from the beautiful beach. It would have been easy to turn this visit into a day of lazy vacation on the beach and further exploration of the long valley. On the way to Waipi`o Valley we stopped at the Hawaii Train Museum near Laupahoehoe Point (where we did some collecting). Trains played a very important part in the history of the islands. I noted a number of old roadbeds during our travels and wished we had time to hike them and collect. I was glad we stopped and wished we could have spent more time there as I learned a lot of history. On the way to Waipi`o Valley we also passed the Hawai`i Tropical Botanical Gardens (and stopped at their gift shop to pick up an extra disposable camera). Monica and I later want back to this amazing place and spent a half day enjoying thousands of tropical plants (including a palm jungle, orchids, and one of the prettiest coastlines we saw during the entire trip) in an incredible rain forest setting; I'm sure we missed more than we saw. We even had the chance pleasure of meeting the owners of this labor of love. If you are ever near Hilo, take time from collecting to visit this beautiful place. On my field trip page at http://tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/FieldTrips.shtml I have a trip report from Kitty and Bill about their trip to where Kilauea was spilling red pahoehoe (and a`a) into the ocean and noted that "I wish I could have joined Kitty & Bill Heacox for this trip in Hawaii!". Bill had to work, but it was truely a great pleasure to take a similar trip with Kitty back to this location! We didn't see lava pouring into the ocean (or anything red), but we did get to walk on fresh (and very hot!!!!) lava that was still cooling, venting, and 'clinking' as it cooled. I collected some very interesting specimens of "unknowns" on basalt that I hope to identify someday, as well as pahoehoe and a`a. We also collected some (smelly) sulfur crystals (and some were green -- any suggestions of what they might be are most welcome) from vents. The other collecting trip I will never forget was on Mauna Kea with Bill. He needed to get some measurements of the oldest observatory on the peak for his job, and we turned the trip into a memory. The ancient Hawaiian's had a quarry around 12,000 ft where they mined very hard basalt (this stuff sings when struck -- you could make wind chimes from it) for use in making their stone age tools. On our way up to the peak (and observatories) we stopped to hike several hundred yards across very rough terrain to collect. I don't think I have ever worked harder to collect a specimen. There used to be glaciers at this location and we even found rock marked with glacial striae (did you know they have snow every year in Hawai'1?). Walking at the peak was almost harder at nearly 14,000 ft. But the view of sunset, stars, full Moon, Centuri, and Mars, was worth any effort. Getting inside a couple domes at the best observing site in the world was gravy at its best! I may be a rockhound, but I like to look up too. On our last day Kitty checked the USGS site and found they had marked a new trail to 'red' lava from a new flow. We gave up going to the green sand beach, and Monica and I went back to Kilauea; we were able to get within a couple feet of red pahoehoe (by ignoring the Ranger's warnings and going about 10 meters off the marked trail). I'm still kicking myself for not bringing my rock hammer (I thought I had done enough collecting a couple days earlier; I shipped another ten boxes of specimens home before leaving) so I could have scooped up some fresh red stuff -- now I need to go back! I'm sure you have heard stories about Hawaii and its islands that are hard to believe; after visiting I can assure you that they are true! This has been the most enjoyable, and the best collecting vacation, my wife and I have taken in more than 25 years. Pictures (and a more complete report) are coming on my website soon. Mahalo Kitty and Bill! Aloha, Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 09:44:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lawrence Rush) Date: Mon Aug 18 08:44:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Poconos References: <003401c33a45$fcdbbf00$558869d1@6663r01> Message-ID: <001701c3659f$87b1fca0$fdb15a0c@fekib> ----- Original Message ----- From: Powell To: Rockhounds List Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 7:44 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Poconos Dear List, The family is heading out for a brief vacation, this time to the Poconos. Do any of you good mineral collecting folks know of rock shops in the Poconos? Thanks, in advance, for your insights. Darryl Powell Manchester, New York _______________________________________________ Sorry that I couldn't reply to this earlier (I was on vacation, in the Pocono's!!!)...... Anyone visiting the Pocono Mountains, in NE Pennsylvania, might be interested in the following: A restored underground coal mine in Scranton, run as a museum and park, with a mine tour partially using an inclined motorized trackway to the 900' level. Excellent tour! The "World's Largest Pothole", some 40' wide and perhaps 80' deep, near Carbondale, in a State Park. (This claim excludes the Connecticut highway examples, in the spring!!) This is a glacial feature, no running water. Boulder Field, in Hickory Run State Park, a glacial feature which is now a 800X1200' field of nothing but large water- worn boulders at a glacial terminal moraine. Excellent examples of the power of the outwash. (And a good way to expend the kid's energy!) Fossils of ferns, lepidodendrons, etc. are locally abundant near St. Clair, in abandoned and restored coal strip mines. Most of these areas are posted, but locals say some sites are available (I can't verify this). The Pennsylvanian geology is apparent everywhere, with sinuous, folded Appalachian ridges running NE/SW, wind and water gaps, glacial lakes, good sandstone, shale and limestone exposures, etc. Bring along a geologic map and have a ball!! Larry Rush From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 09:57:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Aug 18 08:57:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Synthetic diamonds In-Reply-To: <001701c3659f$87b1fca0$fdb15a0c@fekib> Message-ID: Here is an interesting article on synthetic diamonds: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "Super flawless diamonds now made by machines Setback for jewel industry is good news for high-tech ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Posted: August 18, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com Two companies are manufacturing gem-quality diamonds that may break the DeBeers cartel and set off a high-tech craze for diamond chips much heartier than silicon, reports Wired Magazine's September issue. The diamonds are flawless and can fool even the most expert of gemologists. The natural conditions that produce diamonds have long been understood – put pure carbon under enough heat and pressure and it will crystallize into the hardest material known. But evolutionists have suggested it would require millions of years to reproduce the precise set of circumstances. Some have suggested the earth's diamonds were produced deep in the planet's mantle some 3.3 billion years ago. While replicating the conditions in a lab isn't easy, many have tried. Since the mid-19th century, Wired reports, dozens of these modern alchemists have been injured in accidents and explosions while attempting to manufacture diamonds. Starting in the 1950s, engineers managed to produce ...." http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34140 De Beers might have to let some of those stones out of their safes. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 10:51:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Aug 18 09:51:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] global warming? References: Message-ID: <000b01c365a8$f9257ac0$769d77d5@pandora.be> >And white dwarfs > can last for a long long time. Indeed! They also have a (initially) VERY high surface temp. If I recall right (again, oh well... I'm over 50) somewhere in the hood of 150.000 K. VERY high output of UV which is right up my alley. I can hardly wait to put my fluorescent mineral collection in open air. Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 1:40 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] global warming? > Well no, it's true that the sun probably has about 5 billion years of > hydrogen left but after that it will go thru the red giant stage followed by > a brief wolf-rayet stage and ending up as a white dwarf. And white dwarfs > can last for a long long time. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of David R. Dick > > Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 15:59 > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] global warming? > > > > > > > > the multiplier is more like 250 => 5 billion years left > > (halfway through a 10 billion year lifespan) > > > > > > > > Try multiplying that number by a thousand. > > > > > > Bryan > > > > > > > > > > > Even educated findings have disbelievers, or contradictory > > conclusions. > > > > The Sun is believed to burn out in 20 million years, how do > > we avoid that? > > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 12:10:13 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Aug 18 11:10:13 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Synthetic diamonds Message-ID: <19b.194c5391.2c727000@aol.com> Hi group, The Rapaport News put this out on the bulletin last Friday, if anyone wants to read the article, e-mail me and I will send it to you. I don't know if putting the entire item on the list, counts as publishing, but because of copywrite laws, I would rather not test them at present. Apollo Diamond, which is located in Boston, will release CVD Diamonds in the 4th quarter of this year. Gem quality stones have been cut from these. The diamonds will be accompanied with a certificate stating their orgins. Dave --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 13:06:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Mon Aug 18 12:06:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= In-Reply-To: <1060960188.3f3cf7bc50f8b@mail.mways.co.uk> Message-ID: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> I have used the mindat database hundreds of times, and found only very few real mistakes (in fact I can't remember of any) ; the fact that the database is not complete is indeed inherent on its nature. Even the famous latest Dana contains many, many more errors (see "The Dana Errata page", http://www.minerant.org/dana/errata.html) Perhaps a suggestion for Jolyon : put at an easy place a button linked to a suggestions form, so that people who find errors or omissions can very easily input their remarks. But also such remarks have to be double checked, and that is certainly not an easy task. I hope sincerely that the database will be available for a long time, and that it will be improved continuously. The fact that very important data have to be double checked by the user is not unique for this site, or any other site, but even for the complete literature ! Best regards, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of *jolyon@mysteriousways.co.uk *Sent: vrijdag 15 augustus 2003 17:10 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: *Phosphorrößlerite] * * *Hi All, * *Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded *mindat.org as *an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One *unfortunate side *effect of the success of the site is that people have started *to believe that *the site has complete and accurate information on everything. * *It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the *site, and by its *very nature it is a site that can never be complete. * *I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, *totally valid, as *the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have *not had the time *to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a *good conversation *with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his *criticisms and *input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows *in the right *directions for the future. * *The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making *and not due to *some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I *wrote that managed *to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This *weekend I'll go through *and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In *the meantime, the *Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a *valid mineral *species. * *And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not *a valid species, *please double-check with another reference source before *relying on that *information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! *The data is getting *better every day, but it's far from perfect. * *Regards, * *Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster * *Quoting Van : * *> Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with *you that *> there are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met *> some people who are proud that they are contributors to sites which *> have an "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the *"willies". *> These guys are nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable *> veterans, but the degree of knowledgeableness must increase *if you're *> putting info out there which purports to be "authoritative". *> Authoritative has it origins in being an author - peer reviewed and *> scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second rate *newsletter doesn't *> get you to the level required. *> *> On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets *> focused into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. *> *> Caveat emptor. (more or less) *> *> Van *> *> *> *_______________________________________________ *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *Subscription Services: *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds * * From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 13:28:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Mon Aug 18 12:28:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_RE:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhound?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> Message-ID: <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> I fully agree that's why jolyon is trying to get 'region-managers', each to specialize on a country/region and 'supervise' it see http://www.mindat.org/msg-6-1668-1668.html it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them or email the errors to the region-specialist to be corrected if you know who that is (you can often see that if a name turns up lots of times in the 'changes-log' of a group of localities) or put them in the mistakes&errors forum: http://www.mindat.org/msgboard-7.html cheers! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik Dillen" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:02 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] I have used the mindat database hundreds of times, and found only very few real mistakes (in fact I can't remember of any) ; the fact that the database is not complete is indeed inherent on its nature. Even the famous latest Dana contains many, many more errors (see "The Dana Errata page", http://www.minerant.org/dana/errata.html) Perhaps a suggestion for Jolyon : put at an easy place a button linked to a suggestions form, so that people who find errors or omissions can very easily input their remarks. But also such remarks have to be double checked, and that is certainly not an easy task. I hope sincerely that the database will be available for a long time, and that it will be improved continuously. The fact that very important data have to be double checked by the user is not unique for this site, or any other site, but even for the complete literature ! Best regards, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of *jolyon@mysteriousways.co.uk *Sent: vrijdag 15 augustus 2003 17:10 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: *Phosphorrößlerite] * * *Hi All, * *Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded *mindat.org as *an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One *unfortunate side *effect of the success of the site is that people have started *to believe that *the site has complete and accurate information on everything. * *It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the *site, and by its *very nature it is a site that can never be complete. * *I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, *totally valid, as *the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have *not had the time *to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a *good conversation *with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his *criticisms and *input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows *in the right *directions for the future. * *The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making *and not due to *some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I *wrote that managed *to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This *weekend I'll go through *and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In *the meantime, the *Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a *valid mineral *species. * *And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not *a valid species, *please double-check with another reference source before *relying on that *information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! *The data is getting *better every day, but it's far from perfect. * *Regards, * *Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster * *Quoting Van : * *> Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with *you that *> there are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met *> some people who are proud that they are contributors to sites which *> have an "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the *"willies". *> These guys are nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable *> veterans, but the degree of knowledgeableness must increase *if you're *> putting info out there which purports to be "authoritative". *> Authoritative has it origins in being an author - peer reviewed and *> scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second rate *newsletter doesn't *> get you to the level required. *> *> On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets *> focused into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. *> *> Caveat emptor. (more or less) *> *> Van *> *> *> *_______________________________________________ *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *Subscription Services: *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds * * _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 15:35:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard@Mineral of the Month Club) Date: Mon Aug 18 14:35:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Message-ID: <002a01c365d1$64ec8be0$684e5d3f@t5k8i6> Hello All, One of our Club members has asked for assistance in identifying some = huge specimens she recently picked up. I have posted the photos she = sent us to our web site at = http://www.mineralofthemonthclub.org/Terry.htm if anyone would like to = take a look and see if they ring a bell.=20 Thanks in advance! Richard Mineral of the Month Club Richard Sittinger WonderWorks/Mineral of the Month Club 1770 Orville Avenue Cambria, CA 93428 805.927.2223 Richard@Mineralofthemonthclub.org www.mineralofthemonthclub.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 15:54:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Aug 18 14:54:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification In-Reply-To: <002a01c365d1$64ec8be0$684e5d3f@t5k8i6> Message-ID: <002b01c365d3$1782d1a0$6601a8c0@moose> >From the photos it looks like it might be Thunder Bay area amethyst. I'd almost guess it might be from the agate mine that's just east of town... The one photo on the right looks like some of the brecciated matrix that I've seen from there. Are there areas of agate? You can pick up HUMONGOUS chunks up at the mines. GcB http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Catspaw Minerals Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk > -----Original Message----- > > Hello All, > > One of our Club members has asked for assistance in > identifying some huge specimens she recently picked up. ..... From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 15:55:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Mon Aug 18 14:55:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] RE: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Message-ID: <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> frank de wit wrote: > > I fully agree > that's why jolyon is trying to get 'region-managers', each to specialize on > a country/region and 'supervise' it > see http://www.mindat.org/msg-6-1668-1668.html > it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database > that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them > or email the errors to the region-specialist to be corrected if you know who > that is We've had some nice e-mail conversations and I pointed out that the main problem is knowing who these people are (region managers?) and from where they obtain their data. When you allow collectors to input information, your are often dependent upon wishitwere analysis methods, i.e., "I wish it were minehillite, not margarosanite, so I will call it that." It is just as important *not* to contribute if you are not 100% certain what you are contributing. That is called responsibility to others and to science, and it derives from self-discipline, brutal honesty, and the humility to admit that you really aren't sure what that specimen is and having the knowledge to realize you will never know for certain unless you have it analyzed. I can point to the recent controversies over lavendulan vs. lemanskiite, among others; and the aresenate apatites for certain. I recently did a determinative analysis of one strange phase from a nasty, complex weathering suite, and was quite certain I knew what it was. The parageneis, associations, morphology, color, and chemistry all matched my concept. Erring on the side of caution, however, I sent off a healthy amount for powder diffraction. The analysis came back Saturday in the mail and, though I am not surprised by what it really is, I was dead wrong about what I thought it was. You simply never know. Too many times I have asked someone, "How do you know that is what it is," and the reply is on the order of "because it looks like it," "so-and-so said it was," "I saw a picture in a book," etc. Not good enough. For rare species, solid solution members where the specimen is not end-member, amphiboles, etc., you often cannot know without modern technical analysis. Frank, I don't want to use this forum for a continued public airing of our points. I think we've each said our piece. Sometimes from great conflict, great changes arise, thesis and antithesis joining in an Hegelian synthesis greater than the sum of its parts. I am quite willing to share the lessons I have learned with Jolyon if he feels it will help improve the site. Some of my best friendships began as arguments or conflicts; that may be the case again. And if you think what I said recently was mean, you haven't heard some of the bombastic outrage I've received from my mentors when I make a mistake. The finest swords are tempered with fire. Best regards, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 16:09:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright) Date: Mon Aug 18 15:09:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global warming Message-ID: <002401c365d5$4a09c6e0$feb3950c@mel> The global warming discussion reminds me of an occasion about 15 years = ago. A friend - Professor of Chemical Engineering at a major research = university - announced to me his work had convinced him there was no = such thing as man-made global warming. But, he had a contract for = several hundred thousands of dollars a year to study global warming. = Naturally, I asked him why he was doing the studies. "Because the = government has over $130 MM this year for the study of global warming = and absolutely no funds to prove it doesn't exist." Mel Albright Call or hug someone you love today! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 16:41:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Mon Aug 18 15:41:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DFleri?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?te=5D?= In-Reply-To: <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Don, Frank and the rest I responded in an earlier discussion about the validity of internet data a couple of months ago and I'm not going to repeat myself. I must say I agree with Don that having region managers is not a guarantee for having no (or even less) errors. The solution to the problem is dead simple. Just be scientific!! That means provide good PROOF of ALL data added to any database. It is very simple to add a field called 'reference' to your database. That way users can check references themselves and judge the information on it's value. With reference I do not only mean "MinRec 1998, vol.... etc", but also (if published references are not available) the name of the contributor to the database and maybe even a link to analytical data in the case a find is analysed privately. If such data become an integral part of the database everybody is the region manager of the whole world, because everybody can verify the information. In the current situation the data can very well be correct, but as we have seen in this discussion there are always doubts about data integrety. With the integrety protected to a normal scientific level (there will always be errors) a database like Mindat is of great value. What is better than a central worldwide pool in mineralogical information, the ultimate library accessable from your own desk! Cheers, Maurice >We've had some nice e-mail conversations and I pointed out that the main >problem is knowing who these people are (region managers?) and from >where they obtain their data. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 16:48:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Mon Aug 18 15:48:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_RE:_=5BRockhou?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?nds=5D_Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_Phosphorr=F6=DF?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?lerite=5D?= References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Message-ID: <000701c365da$98245660$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> There are some who write, edit, and have peer reviewed their text BEFORE they let the world read their stuff. My recent brain cloud concerning Frederick Soddy demonstrating that. Most reference books have three or more outside readers who are professionals in their field and in editing skills. Yes, for the most part the editors are paid, but you do get what you pay for. There isn't much incentive to correct an error you see in print. As the newsgroup is like a conversation, everyone is going to make errors, but they do have a chance to say "oops". A more rigid communication in the form of a website or print, requires that you get it right before reaching out and touching someone. Yes, local collectors usually have a good handle on local geography, but there are more than enough fiction writers among them and locality data are not the only kinds of data on websites. If a website is providing information, it cannot maintain a good reputation if it frequently comes forward and says "Wait a minute! We've improved the truth." Of course, Murphy's Law has a corollary which says that the important person will not see your correction, but will perpetuate the error he got from you. If a website tries to trivialize its mistakes by saying "We're not perfect." - the game is lost - to mix several metaphors. The problem with the Dana typographical errors lays with the managing editor not sending a proof copy to the authors. He thought they had worked long and hard on it and the text must be good. The typesetter, however, was the source of the typos. Pressure for release of the book at a geological convention over-rode his best intentions. If fact, the recent Dana experience should be taken to heart when anyone considers writing a book or establishes a website. If you don't get it right immediately, no amount of corrigenda will help. BTW: "Data are" not "data is". Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank de wit" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 3:26 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] RE: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > I fully agree > that's why jolyon is trying to get 'region-managers', each to specialize on > a country/region and 'supervise' it > see http://www.mindat.org/msg-6-1668-1668.html > it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database > that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them > or email the errors to the region-specialist to be corrected if you know who > that is > (you can often see that if a name turns up lots of times in the > 'changes-log' of a group of localities) > or put them in the mistakes&errors forum: > http://www.mindat.org/msgboard-7.html > cheers! > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rik Dillen" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:02 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: > Phosphorrößlerite] > > > I have used the mindat database hundreds of times, and found only very few > real mistakes (in fact I can't remember of any) ; the > fact that the database is not complete is indeed inherent on its nature. > Even the famous latest Dana contains many, many more errors (see "The Dana > Errata page", http://www.minerant.org/dana/errata.html) > Perhaps a suggestion for Jolyon : put at an easy place a button linked to a > suggestions form, so that people who find errors or > omissions can very easily input their remarks. But also such remarks have to > be double checked, and that is certainly not an easy > task. > I hope sincerely that the database will be available for a long time, and > that it will be improved continuously. > The fact that very important data have to be double checked by the user is > not unique for this site, or any other site, but even for > the complete literature ! > > Best regards, > > Rik DILLEN > Doornstraat 15 > B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium > > Tel. + 32 3 7706007 > E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > > Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) > >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! > >>> Exchange list > > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! > > > *-----Original Message----- > *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > *jolyon@mysteriousways.co.uk > *Sent: vrijdag 15 augustus 2003 17:10 > *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > *Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: > *Phosphorrößlerite] > * > * > *Hi All, > * > *Just to put the record straight here I have never regarded > *mindat.org as > *an "authoritative" source, merely a work in progress. One > *unfortunate side > *effect of the success of the site is that people have started > *to believe that > *the site has complete and accurate information on everything. > * > *It doesn't. There are plenty of mistakes and omissions on the > *site, and by its > *very nature it is a site that can never be complete. > * > *I think that Don's criticisms of the site are, in general, > *totally valid, as > *the site has grown faster than I have expected it, and I have > *not had the time > *to improve the systems on the site for a while. I'm having a > *good conversation > *with Don about this off-list at the moment and I believe his > *criticisms and > *input are extremely valuable to ensure that mindat.org grows > *in the right > *directions for the future. > * > *The problem with Phosporrosslerite was entirely of my making > *and not due to > *some rogue contributor, due to a faulty data input script I > *wrote that managed > *to mess up certain entries with diacritical marks. This > *weekend I'll go through > *and manually check other entries with diacritical marks. In > *the meantime, the > *Phosphorrosslerite page has been ammended now to show it is a > *valid mineral > *species. > * > *And if in future you see something listed on mindat.org as not > *a valid species, > *please double-check with another reference source before > *relying on that > *information, as it's quite likely that mindat.org is wrong! > *The data is getting > *better every day, but it's far from perfect. > * > *Regards, > * > *Jolyon - www.mindat.org webmaster > * > *Quoting Van : > * > *> Phew! You must have had lots of coffee, Don. I do agree with > *you that > *> there are sites which allow input rather indiscriminately. I've met > *> some people who are proud that they are contributors to sites which > *> have an "authoritative" air about them and it gives me the > *"willies". > *> These guys are nice people and they are enthusiastic knowledgeable > *> veterans, but the degree of knowledgeableness must increase > *if you're > *> putting info out there which purports to be "authoritative". > *> Authoritative has it origins in being an author - peer reviewed and > *> scrutinized. A few measly articles in a second rate > *newsletter doesn't > *> get you to the level required. > *> > *> On this list we pass around information and after a while it gets > *> focused into something that resembles the truth, at the moment. > *> > *> Caveat emptor. (more or less) > *> > *> Van > *> > *> > *> > *_______________________________________________ > *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > *Subscription Services: > *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > * > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 17:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (KATHY FRONK) Date: Mon Aug 18 16:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Old Rockhound selling out used equipment and specimens. Message-ID: Contact Denny Fiser at 302 W. Hilton, Marengo, Iowa, 52301 or TELEPHONE him at 319-642-5633 evenings and weekends. I am a middle man. He told me about his stuff at a show and asked me to tell others. This site was the best I could do for him. Please contact him directly for the list. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 17:18:09 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (KATHY FRONK) Date: Mon Aug 18 16:18:09 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Old Rockhound selling out used equipment and specimens. Message-ID: Contact Denny Fiser at 302 W. Hilton, Marengo, Iowa, 52301 or TELEPHONE him at 319-642-5633 evenings and weekends. I am a middle man. He told me about his stuff at a show and asked me to tell others. This site was the best I could do for him. Please contact him directly for the list. For an idea of what he has- 14 inch saw with blade, 20 inch flat lap, pixie with good wheels and stuff, 10 inch trim saw, poly 4 wheel grinder, vibra-sonic, 2 loritone tumbers, mini-sonic, 6 lb. tumbler, facetor, 12 inch flat lap, sanding wheel, 2 motors, grits, polishes, display cases, Lake Superior Agates, petrified wood, thunder eggs and other agates, slabs of all sorts, geodes, peridot, and more! Old issues of Rock and Gem magazines, jade and more! Call him directly before the stuff is gone! Tell him Jody in Illinois sent you! Thanks. (Jody's wife-Kathy) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 17:22:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Richard@Mineral of the Month Club) Date: Mon Aug 18 16:22:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification References: <002b01c365d3$1782d1a0$6601a8c0@moose> Message-ID: <002d01c365e0$4477fde0$984e5d3f@t5k8i6> Hi Gary, Thanks! Richard Mineral of the Month Club ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Brown" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:52 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification > >From the photos it looks like it might be Thunder Bay area amethyst. > I'd almost guess it might be from the agate mine that's just east of > town... The one photo on the right looks like some of the brecciated > matrix that I've seen from there. Are there areas of agate? You can > pick up HUMONGOUS chunks up at the mines. > > GcB > http://www.catspaw-minerals.com > Catspaw Minerals > Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > Hello All, > > > > One of our Club members has asked for assistance in > > identifying some huge specimens she recently picked up. ..... > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 18:07:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Mon Aug 18 17:07:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Diamond & Fossil Sale Message-ID: <19b.194f649b.2c72c3ee@aol.com> Hi List, I need to generate some money to pay bills this month. I have two lists, one for fossils and one with 40 diamond listings. If anyone would like to view the lists, I can e-mail the list or lists to them. The sale is 30% off list price. Large purchases receive a little larger discount. I have low prices anyway, this sale just makes them lower. The diamonds are from Australia, China, South America, Africa, and Russia. Thanks for reading this, Dave Phillips Betdav97@aol.com or WVFossils@aol.com Morgantown, WV --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 20:02:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Aug 18 19:02:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification In-Reply-To: <002b01c365d3$1782d1a0$6601a8c0@moose> References: <002a01c365d1$64ec8be0$684e5d3f@t5k8i6> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030818161803.0234d8f0@mail.aloha.net> That's exactly what I was thinking! Kitty At 11:52 AM 8/18/2003, you wrote: > >From the photos it looks like it might be Thunder Bay area amethyst. >I'd almost guess it might be from the agate mine that's just east of >town... The one photo on the right looks like some of the brecciated >matrix that I've seen from there. Are there areas of agate? You can >pick up HUMONGOUS chunks up at the mines. > >GcB >http://www.catspaw-minerals.com >Catspaw Minerals >Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 21:03:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Aug 18 20:03:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Identifying Unknown Specimens [was: Mindat {was: Phosphorrößlerite}] References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> Message-ID: <3F419352.291F@Tomaszewski.net> Don H wrote: > > frank de wit wrote: > > > > it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database > > that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them > thought it was. You simply never know. Too many times I have asked > someone, "How do you know that is what it is," and the reply is on the > order of "because it looks like it," "so-and-so said it was," "I saw a > picture in a book," etc. Not good enough. For rare species, solid > solution members where the specimen is not end-member, amphiboles, etc., > you often cannot know without modern technical analysis. This thread raises the more generic and interesting question of how to go about identifying an unknown specimen. I would like to start a discussion on the topic as I think it is something we could all profit from by sharing experience and personal approaches. I'll start with the obvious and move towards more difficult identification procedures: * The dealer said it was Leaverite so that is what it must be. * This specimen of Leaverite came from Anytown, which is world famous for Leaverite. It looks like all the other specimens of Leaverite I've ever seen (from there), so it must be Leaverite. * I showed this specimen of Leaverite to Rock Hound, who is an acknowledged expert on leaverite, and he told me that is what it is. A common variation of the above is to post a (grainy, low resolution, and out of focus) picture somewhere on the internet and ask a list for help. * I collected this specimen at Anytown. Anytown is known for only six different minerals. I looked up all six minerals in a couple guidebooks, and it is closest to Leaverite, so that is what it must be. A common variation is to take it to your next club meeting to get suggestons of what it might be and look them up for a close match. * Its purple and associated with Leaverite, so it must be Discardite. * I tested hardness and streak, and matched it up in a fieldbook (or internet search) using color as a third key. * I tested hardness and streak, and matched it up in a fieldbook (or internet search) using fluorescence (and color) as a third key. * I spent some time with a lens and found a good crystal that let me narrow down a hardness/streak/color collection of possible matches. * I tested the specific gravity that let me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible matches. * I powdered some of the rock and did some flame and bead tests that let me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible matches. By this point most of us are frustrated enough to lump it into something close and call it Leaverite. * I used my Gilbert Chemistry Set and found it contained elements x, y, and z that let me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible matches. * I got so frustrated I finally sent a specimen off to a lab and paid way too much to find out it was (probably) Leaverite. Now I have obviously simplified some of these steps, but I hope you get the idea that identifying an unknown specimen is a process of elimination. There are only so many minerals. Each test you perform on an unknown should further limit the number of possibilities. Several tests should let you get down to one mineral and your specimen is no longer unknown. * Whee! The lab said it contains w, x, y, and z. This doesn't match any known mineral. Now how do I go about get it recognized and officially named Leaverite? Now its your turn! What steps do you go thru to identify an unknown? What tests have I omitted? Is there a better order that gets to an identification faster? This is a problem we all face, and I know there are people on this list far more expert than I am. Can you share some of your knowledge and experience to help us all get better identifications? Thanks! Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 18 21:31:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Aug 18 20:31:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Identifying Unknown Specimens In-Reply-To: <3F419352.291F@Tomaszewski.net> References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030818173258.02352d50@mail.aloha.net> >What tests have I omitted? Geiger counter to determine if it is radioactive. Ohm meter to test conductivity to see if it is a metal (also a magnet). BTW the fluorescence test should be both LW and SW UV (many people have only LW because it is less expensive, and less hazardous to the eyes). Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 09:01:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Aug 19 08:01:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007e01c36662$93c22bf0$6601a8c0@moose> I am going to be giving some training at an Air Force base around 100km north of Toronto. I was thinking of flying up early and making a weekend collecting trip to Sudbury. I'll be going up the last weekend in September. A couple of questions.... How long will it take me to drive from Toronto to Sudbury? Will collecting sites still be open? Any good ideas for a 1-day jaunt...minimum time/maximum return kind of question. Thanks much! Gary Brown Catspaw Minerals http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 09:05:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Tue Aug 19 08:05:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Identifying Unknown Specimens References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> <3F419352.291F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000f01c36663$fa33cc80$0305efd1@oemcomputer> Personally, I put much emphasis on studying the literature and then studying the locality. Lanny Ream's MinDex is where I start. Should be an acid test in there somewhere. Optical work is another option accessible to the amateur. Dealing with tiny amounts of micro crystals rules out most of the suggested tests; skip 'em and go to a commercial EDS or better yet a full workup from a friendly museum mineralogist. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr, tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The mineralogy of Ontario, Canada: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: August 18, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Identifying Unknown Specimens [was: Mindat {was: PhosphorrXXlerite}] > Don H wrote: > > > > frank de wit wrote: > > > > > > it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database > > > that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them > > > thought it was. You simply never know. Too many times I have asked > > someone, "How do you know that is what it is," and the reply is on the > > order of "because it looks like it," "so-and-so said it was," "I saw a > > picture in a book," etc. Not good enough. For rare species, solid > > solution members where the specimen is not end-member, amphiboles, etc., > > you often cannot know without modern technical analysis. > > This thread raises the more generic and interesting question of how to > go about identifying an unknown specimen. I would like to start a > discussion on the topic as I think it is something we could all profit > from by sharing experience and personal approaches. > > I'll start with the obvious and move towards more difficult > identification procedures: > > * The dealer said it was Leaverite so that is what it must be. > > * This specimen of Leaverite came from Anytown, which is world famous > for Leaverite. It looks like all the other specimens of Leaverite I've > ever seen (from there), so it must be Leaverite. > > * I showed this specimen of Leaverite to Rock Hound, who is an > acknowledged expert on leaverite, and he told me that is what it is. > > A common variation of the above is to post a (grainy, low resolution, > and out of focus) picture somewhere on the internet and ask a list for > help. > > * I collected this specimen at Anytown. Anytown is known for only six > different minerals. I looked up all six minerals in a couple guidebooks, > and it is closest to Leaverite, so that is what it must be. > > A common variation is to take it to your next club meeting to get > suggestons of what it might be and look them up for a close match. > > * Its purple and associated with Leaverite, so it must be Discardite. > > * I tested hardness and streak, and matched it up in a fieldbook (or > internet search) using color as a third key. > > * I tested hardness and streak, and matched it up in a fieldbook (or > internet search) using fluorescence (and color) as a third key. > > * I spent some time with a lens and found a good crystal that let me > narrow down a hardness/streak/color collection of possible matches. > > * I tested the specific gravity that let me narrow down a > hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible matches. > > * I powdered some of the rock and did some flame and bead tests that let > me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible > matches. > > By this point most of us are frustrated enough to lump it into something > close and call it Leaverite. > > * I used my Gilbert Chemistry Set and found it contained elements x, y, > and z that let me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection > of possible matches. > > * I got so frustrated I finally sent a specimen off to a lab and paid > way too much to find out it was (probably) Leaverite. > > Now I have obviously simplified some of these steps, but I hope you get > the idea that identifying an unknown specimen is a process of > elimination. There are only so many minerals. Each test you perform on > an unknown should further limit the number of possibilities. Several > tests should let you get down to one mineral and your specimen is no > longer unknown. > > * Whee! The lab said it contains w, x, y, and z. This doesn't match any > known mineral. Now how do I go about get it recognized and officially > named Leaverite? > > Now its your turn! What steps do you go thru to identify an unknown? > What tests have I omitted? Is there a better order that gets to an > identification faster? This is a problem we all face, and I know there > are people on this list far more expert than I am. Can you share some of > your knowledge and experience to help us all get better identifications? > > Thanks! > > Kreigh > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 09:05:10 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 19 08:05:10 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] When is a garnet not a garnet? References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> Message-ID: <003401c36663$238155e0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> In an air of confessionalism I would share a story. Many a moon ago I was teaching X-ray diffraction lab. The up-coming assignment was to calculate unit cell dimensions of a sample the student also identified. I was on a trip to Talcville, NY and I spotted some red garnet masses in a quartz vein at the Two and a Half mine. Here was a perfect "unknown" for the student. Garnet is an isometric mineral and the unit cell dimensions could be calculated by hand and the student would understand the process. A benefit would be that I could use the unit cell to find out what the chemical composition was. I gave the sample to the grad student and he kept coming back with the "wrong" answer. I checked his data and "Yup", it really was a tourmaline. Eventually turned out to be 45% of a new species on the uvite-dravite series. Close, but no cigar. They still put erasers on pencils for a reason. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don H" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:55 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] RE: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds]Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > frank de wit wrote: > > > > I fully agree > > that's why jolyon is trying to get 'region-managers', each to specialize on > > a country/region and 'supervise' it > > see http://www.mindat.org/msg-6-1668-1668.html > > it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database > > that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them > > or email the errors to the region-specialist to be corrected if you know who > > that is > > We've had some nice e-mail conversations and I pointed out that the main > problem is knowing who these people are (region managers?) and from > where they obtain their data. When you allow collectors to input > information, your are often dependent upon wishitwere analysis methods, > i.e., "I wish it were minehillite, not margarosanite, so I will call it > that." It is just as important *not* to contribute if you are not 100% > certain what you are contributing. That is called responsibility to > others and to science, and it derives from self-discipline, brutal > honesty, and the humility to admit that you really aren't sure what that > specimen is and having the knowledge to realize you will never know for > certain unless you have it analyzed. I can point to the recent > controversies over lavendulan vs. lemanskiite, among others; and the > aresenate apatites for certain. I recently did a determinative analysis > of one strange phase from a nasty, complex weathering suite, and was > quite certain I knew what it was. The parageneis, associations, > morphology, color, and chemistry all matched my concept. Erring on the > side of caution, however, I sent off a healthy amount for powder > diffraction. The analysis came back Saturday in the mail and, though I > am not surprised by what it really is, I was dead wrong about what I > thought it was. You simply never know. Too many times I have asked > someone, "How do you know that is what it is," and the reply is on the > order of "because it looks like it," "so-and-so said it was," "I saw a > picture in a book," etc. Not good enough. For rare species, solid > solution members where the specimen is not end-member, amphiboles, etc., > you often cannot know without modern technical analysis. > > Frank, I don't want to use this forum for a continued public airing of > our points. I think we've each said our piece. Sometimes from great > conflict, great changes arise, thesis and antithesis joining in an > Hegelian synthesis greater than the sum of its parts. I am quite > willing to share the lessons I have learned with Jolyon if he feels it > will help improve the site. Some of my best friendships began as > arguments or conflicts; that may be the case again. And if you think > what I said recently was mean, you haven't heard some of the bombastic > outrage I've received from my mentors when I make a mistake. The finest > swords are tempered with fire. > > Best regards, > > Don > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 09:09:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 19 08:09:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification References: <002a01c365d1$64ec8be0$684e5d3f@t5k8i6> Message-ID: <003e01c36663$bcb99420$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Looks like amethyst alright, but doen't strike me as typical of Thunder Bay material, but there are lots and lots of different amethyst localities up there. Some Guanajuato, Mexico amethyst looks like that. Have also seen similar for "Kremnitz". Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard@Mineral of the Month Club" To: ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 5:40 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Hello All, One of our Club members has asked for assistance in identifying some huge specimens she recently picked up. I have posted the photos she sent us to our web site at http://www.mineralofthemonthclub.org/Terry.htm if anyone would like to take a look and see if they ring a bell. Thanks in advance! Richard Mineral of the Month Club Richard Sittinger WonderWorks/Mineral of the Month Club 1770 Orville Avenue Cambria, CA 93428 805.927.2223 Richard@Mineralofthemonthclub.org www.mineralofthemonthclub.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 10:01:11 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Aug 19 09:01:11 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global warming References: <002401c365d5$4a09c6e0$feb3950c@mel> Message-ID: <00d801c3666b$0fee11a0$69ab77d5@pandora.be> Mel Albright wrote >Call or hug someone you love today! Axel added: "tomorrow it may be too hot"... Mel, please forgive me. I am known for my sick sense of humor on two coninents... Just making fun, noting else. Shame on me, I know... Couldn't resist... Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 10:10:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Aug 19 09:10:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip Or Bancroft? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008e01c3666c$31dc05f0$6601a8c0@moose> Or.... Should it be Bancroft on my list? Thanks much! Gary Brown Catspaw Minerals http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 10:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Tue Aug 19 09:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hi Georgia, How much would you like? E-mail with an address and I'll send some out. John Santa, ID john@pandemoniumgraphics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Olmstead" > Hi > Some of us arenophiles would like some sand from that area. > > GeorgiaO > > > __..--..__..--..__ > > John Siebel wrote: > > > > An unspoken agreement between > > Julie and me kept us there for most of the day as we amassed about 30 pounds > > of small garnet crystals, chips and sand. > > > >> > John > > Micro Paradise From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 11:03:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 19 10:03:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek In-Reply-To: <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> I have a baggie of it too. Love that garnet purple sand, at least as cool as the olivine green sand from Maui :) At 07:37 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: Hi Georgia, How much would you like? E-mail with an address and I'll send some out. John Santa, ID john@pandemoniumgraphics.com ----- Original Message ----- From: {quot}Frederick Olmstead{quot} > Hi > Some of us arenophiles would like some sand from that area. > > GeorgiaO > > > __..--..__..--..__ > > John Siebel wrote: > > > > An unspoken agreement between > > Julie and me kept us there for most of the day as we amassed about 30 pounds > > of small garnet crystals, chips and sand. > > > >> > John > > Micro Paradise _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com WWW http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 11:04:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 19 10:04:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100310.01d30b90@mail.spiritone.com> I have a baggie of it too. Love that garnet purple sand, at least as cool as the olivine green sand from Maui :) At 07:37 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >Hi Georgia, > >How much would you like? E-mail with an address and I'll send some out. > >John >Santa, ID >john@pandemoniumgraphics.com > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Frederick Olmstead" > > Hi > > Some of us arenophiles would like some sand from that area. > > > > GeorgiaO > > > > > > __..--..__..--..__ > > > > John Siebel wrote: > > > > > > An unspoken agreement between > > > Julie and me kept us there for most of the day as we amassed about 30 >pounds > > > of small garnet crystals, chips and sand. > > > > > >> > John > > > Micro Paradise > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com WWW http://OreRockOn.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 11:08:15 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Tue Aug 19 10:08:15 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip References: <007e01c36662$93c22bf0$6601a8c0@moose> Message-ID: <000e01c36675$47941640$0305efd1@oemcomputer> Sudbury is about 300 km from TO. Bancroft is about a three hour drive. I'd suggest the latter, way better collecting. Be prepared for coolish weather, but probably not snow. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr, tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The mineralogy of Ontario, Canada: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Brown" To: Sent: August 19, 2003 11:00 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip > I am going to be giving some training at an Air Force base around 100km > north of Toronto. I was thinking of flying up early and making a > weekend collecting trip to Sudbury. I'll be going up the last weekend > in September. A couple of questions.... > > How long will it take me to drive from Toronto to Sudbury? > Will collecting sites still be open? > Any good ideas for a 1-day jaunt...minimum time/maximum return kind of > question. > > Thanks much! > > Gary Brown > Catspaw Minerals > http://www.catspaw-minerals.com > Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 12:22:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Tue Aug 19 11:22:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Identifying Unknown Specimens In-Reply-To: <000f01c36663$fa33cc80$0305efd1@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Agree. In a lot of cases minerals are quite easy to recognise. With good references and experience many minerals can be identified (with reasonable certainty) by just looking. Things get difficult when more minerals in a paragenese look very similar. Mostly these minerals are not only visually similar, but also chemically very close to eachother. There are plenty examples, but to name a few. Torbernite/Zeunerite series, Astrophyllite/Lampropbyllite/Barytolamprophyllite/Kupletskite series or the new extended group of minerals we just called Labuntsovite until about a dozen new members of this group are discovered... etc etc etc In most such cases quantitative chemical analyses is the only option. Chemical analyses are really fun to do. I taught analytical chemistry and gave practical classes at university during my own education. Just for fun I try the old fashioned blow pipe experiments of Plattner and Kolbeck. Allthough the majority is only qualitative, most experiments are really difficult to perform correctly. Minerals are garbage bags full of unwanted elements interfering with your tests. The point is that good qualitative analyses on minerals is difficult and a lot of sample material is needed. Allthough the puzzling process is fun, it is not very practical. The best thing is a modern analyses with EDS, microprobe and or XRD. And while waiting for the results we can only admire the 19th century scientists and be amazed how much they did with their techniques. Cheers, Maurice -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Tim Jokela Sent: dinsdag 19 augustus 2003 17:10 To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Identifying Unknown Specimens Personally, I put much emphasis on studying the literature and then studying the locality. Lanny Ream's MinDex is where I start. Should be an acid test in there somewhere. Optical work is another option accessible to the amateur. Dealing with tiny amounts of micro crystals rules out most of the suggested tests; skip 'em and go to a commercial EDS or better yet a full workup from a friendly museum mineralogist. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr, tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The mineralogy of Ontario, Canada: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: August 18, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Identifying Unknown Specimens [was: Mindat {was: PhosphorrXXlerite}] > Don H wrote: > > > > frank de wit wrote: > > > > > > it's a very time consuming task to correct errors in the database > > > that's why it's so important to contribute, see errors, and correct them > > > thought it was. You simply never know. Too many times I have asked > > someone, "How do you know that is what it is," and the reply is on the > > order of "because it looks like it," "so-and-so said it was," "I saw a > > picture in a book," etc. Not good enough. For rare species, solid > > solution members where the specimen is not end-member, amphiboles, etc., > > you often cannot know without modern technical analysis. > > This thread raises the more generic and interesting question of how to > go about identifying an unknown specimen. I would like to start a > discussion on the topic as I think it is something we could all profit > from by sharing experience and personal approaches. > > I'll start with the obvious and move towards more difficult > identification procedures: > > * The dealer said it was Leaverite so that is what it must be. > > * This specimen of Leaverite came from Anytown, which is world famous > for Leaverite. It looks like all the other specimens of Leaverite I've > ever seen (from there), so it must be Leaverite. > > * I showed this specimen of Leaverite to Rock Hound, who is an > acknowledged expert on leaverite, and he told me that is what it is. > > A common variation of the above is to post a (grainy, low resolution, > and out of focus) picture somewhere on the internet and ask a list for > help. > > * I collected this specimen at Anytown. Anytown is known for only six > different minerals. I looked up all six minerals in a couple guidebooks, > and it is closest to Leaverite, so that is what it must be. > > A common variation is to take it to your next club meeting to get > suggestons of what it might be and look them up for a close match. > > * Its purple and associated with Leaverite, so it must be Discardite. > > * I tested hardness and streak, and matched it up in a fieldbook (or > internet search) using color as a third key. > > * I tested hardness and streak, and matched it up in a fieldbook (or > internet search) using fluorescence (and color) as a third key. > > * I spent some time with a lens and found a good crystal that let me > narrow down a hardness/streak/color collection of possible matches. > > * I tested the specific gravity that let me narrow down a > hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible matches. > > * I powdered some of the rock and did some flame and bead tests that let > me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection of possible > matches. > > By this point most of us are frustrated enough to lump it into something > close and call it Leaverite. > > * I used my Gilbert Chemistry Set and found it contained elements x, y, > and z that let me narrow down a hardness/streak/crystal/color collection > of possible matches. > > * I got so frustrated I finally sent a specimen off to a lab and paid > way too much to find out it was (probably) Leaverite. > > Now I have obviously simplified some of these steps, but I hope you get > the idea that identifying an unknown specimen is a process of > elimination. There are only so many minerals. Each test you perform on > an unknown should further limit the number of possibilities. Several > tests should let you get down to one mineral and your specimen is no > longer unknown. > > * Whee! The lab said it contains w, x, y, and z. This doesn't match any > known mineral. Now how do I go about get it recognized and officially > named Leaverite? > > Now its your turn! What steps do you go thru to identify an unknown? > What tests have I omitted? Is there a better order that gets to an > identification faster? This is a problem we all face, and I know there > are people on this list far more expert than I am. Can you share some of > your knowledge and experience to help us all get better identifications? > > Thanks! > > Kreigh > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 12:24:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Aug 19 11:24:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip Or Bancroft? In-Reply-To: <008e01c3666c$31dc05f0$6601a8c0@moose> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819075634.02354540@mail.aloha.net> At 06:08 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >Or.... Should it be Bancroft on my list? We haven't been to Sudbury, but we found Bancroft so wonderful the first time we went there in 1999 that we went to a lot of effort to go again in 2000 and 2001. First trip: 2 days, we said, "We've got to come back and stay longer." Second trip: 4 days, we said, "This still wasn't enough time; we've got to stay longer." Third trip: 6 days, we said, "You know, we've still just scratched the surface!" I believe Bancroft is about a 3-hour drive from Toronto. The information below is copied from the Web. The Guidebook from the Chamber of Commerce is excellent, showing locations of great collecting sites from mine dumps to river beds to road cuts, and listing minerals and where they can be found. Local geology maps are also available at the Chamber, as well as permits to enter those few sites that require a small entry fee. Aloha, Kitty The Bancroft & District Mineral Collecting Guidebook provides mineral collecting tips, mineral descriptions and directions to over 30 popular collecting sites in the Bancroft area. This Guidebook may be purchased in the Mineral Capital Gift Shop in the "Old Station "in Bancroft or ordered and delivered through the mail. Or contact Bancroft and District Chamber of Commerce Box 539, Bancroft, ON K0L 1C0 Tel:613-332-1513 Fax:613-332-2119 Email: chamber@commerce.bancroft.on.ca http://www.bancroftdistrict.com/ http://www.discovermyvillage.com/Articles/mines/mineral_collecting_introduction_bancroft.htm --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 12:26:07 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Aug 19 11:26:07 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> References: <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> At 07:02 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >I have a baggie of it too. Love that garnet purple sand, at >least as cool as the olivine green sand from Maui :) Did you really get green sand on Maui? Sure it wasn't the Big Island? Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 12:48:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 19 11:48:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819114149.01d0f548@mail.spiritone.com> Whoops yes you are right it was on the big island Green Sand Beach right? A nice bike ride from the South Point road as I recall. At 11:43 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: At 07:02 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: I have a baggie of it too. Love that garnet purple sand, at least as cool as the olivine green sand from Maui :) Did you really get green sand on Maui? Sure it wasn't the Big Island? Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 13:19:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Tue Aug 19 12:19:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D__Re:_=5BRockhounds=5D_Mindat_=5Bwas:_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Phosphorr=F6=DFlerite=5D?= References: Message-ID: <006d01c36686$9b089e70$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> I agree again but... (there's always a but hahaha) Mindat has 'the changelog' every entry or change someone makes in Mindat is logged together with name and email adres of the contributor so every great entry always has a name of someone to thank ;-) (and every error has the name of the guilty one) so, and I agree with Don fully, then it's up to everyone's responsibility to only enter what is verified information instead of 'wishful thinkful information' so... let's now close this thread and all contribute to mindat :-))) cheers! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice de Graaf" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:36 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [Rockhounds] Mindat [was: Phosphorrößlerite] > Hi Don, Frank and the rest > > I responded in an earlier discussion about the validity of internet data a > couple of months ago and I'm not going to repeat myself. I must say I agree > with Don that having region managers is not a guarantee for having no (or > even less) errors. The solution to the problem is dead simple. Just be > scientific!! That means provide good PROOF of ALL data added to any > database. It is very simple to add a field called 'reference' to your > database. That way users can check references themselves and judge the > information on it's value. > > With reference I do not only mean "MinRec 1998, vol.... etc", but also (if > published references are not available) the name of the contributor to the > database and maybe even a link to analytical data in the case a find is > analysed privately. > > If such data become an integral part of the database everybody is the region > manager of the whole world, because everybody can verify the information. In > the current situation the data can very well be correct, but as we have seen > in this discussion there are always doubts about data integrety. > > With the integrety protected to a normal scientific level (there will always > be errors) a database like Mindat is of great value. What is better than a > central worldwide pool in mineralogical information, the ultimate library > accessable from your own desk! > > Cheers, > Maurice > > > > >We've had some nice e-mail conversations and I pointed out that the main > >problem is knowing who these people are (region managers?) and from > >where they obtain their data. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 13:41:05 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Aug 19 12:41:05 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819114149.01d0f548@mail.spiritone.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819091557.02392bf0@mail.aloha.net> At 08:46 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >Whoops yes you are right it was on the big island Green Sand >Beach right? A nice bike ride from the South Point road as I recall. Yep. You used to be able to take a 4-wheel drive car all the way to the beach (but not a RENTAL 4-wheel drive, as per an earlier thread about renting off-road vehicles that the rental companies forbid being taken off-road). But now I'm told all motor vehicles are prohibited on the Green Sand Beach trail, so the only way to get there is by bike or on foot. The sand is actually a mixture of grains of black basalt and little translucent bright green grains of olivine, with occasional white bits of coral. It is possible (with patience) to separate enough olivine with tweezers and/or a knife to obtain a teaspoon of pure bright glittery green micro gems, some as big as 1mm. in diameter. That beach is at the southernmost place in the United States. Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 14:02:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Aug 19 13:02:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819091557.02392bf0@mail.aloha.net> References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819114149.01d0f548@mail.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819125954.01d05458@mail.spiritone.com> Not for long lol. The new island (I for get the name) will break the surface in about what year? And I sluiced it with a frisbee; the olivine is lighter than the basalt and heavier than the coral. Worked pretty good... At 12:58 PM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >At 08:46 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >>Whoops yes you are right it was on the big island Green Sand >>Beach right? A nice bike ride from the South Point road as I recall. > > >Yep. You used to be able to take a 4-wheel drive car all the way to the >beach (but not a RENTAL 4-wheel drive, as per an earlier thread about >renting off-road vehicles that the rental companies forbid being taken >off-road). But now I'm told all motor vehicles are prohibited on the >Green Sand Beach trail, so the only way to get there is by bike or on >foot. The sand is actually a mixture of grains of black basalt and little >translucent bright green grains of olivine, with occasional white bits of >coral. It is possible (with patience) to separate enough olivine with >tweezers and/or a knife to obtain a teaspoon of pure bright glittery green >micro gems, some as big as 1mm. in diameter. > >That beach is at the southernmost place in the United States. > >Aloha, Kitty > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/plain (text body -- kept) >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 14:10:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Aug 19 13:10:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Loihi was Emerald Creek In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819125954.01d05458@mail.spiritone.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819091557.02392bf0@mail.aloha.net> <6.0.0.14.2.20030819114149.01d0f548@mail.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819102524.02357c90@mail.aloha.net> At 10:00 AM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >Not for long lol. The new island (I for get the name) will break the >surface in about what year? And I sluiced it with a frisbee; the olivine >is lighter than the basalt and heavier than the coral. Worked pretty good... The new island is called Loihi and is expected to emerge in about 5000 years, if I remember correctly. Here's a neat website: http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/HCV/loihi.html Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release Date: 6/18/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 15:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Tue Aug 19 14:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Andara mining district is online completely Message-ID: <00cd01c3669a$51878ae0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Hi all, The pics of my trip to the Andara mining district, Picos d'Europe, Spain also see: http://www.mindat.org/loc.php?loc=3D13643 are now completely online: http://www.strahlen.org/vp/andara/ (about 100 pics ! , together with detailed (mining & topo) cards and a = large panoramic-picture) Cheers! Frank www.strahlen.org --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 16:03:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Aug 19 15:03:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.2.20030819125954.01d05458@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: I got 4 emails from listmembers: Tersesa Masters, Armando, J Peterson and Copperccg all infected with Bugbear virus. Everyone should be aware of this problem. The addresses maybe spoofed but someone on the list has the virus. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 16:06:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Tue Aug 19 15:06:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list Message-ID: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> bugbear is fiction take no action ...what the recommended removal is is the removal of essential PC files that are not corrupt to begin with! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 16:15:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Tue Aug 19 15:15:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> Message-ID: <013401c3669f$43cf2cf0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> don't listen to anyone, only read for yourself : http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/articles/bugbearb.html bugbear has many variants then buy sophos http://www.sophos.com/ and never bother about virusses again... I secure a +500 employee-office against 'virusses' with sophos products and am very happy with it... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list > bugbear is fiction take no action ...what the recommended removal is is the > removal of essential PC files that are not corrupt to begin with! > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 16:43:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jimmy Kuo) Date: Tue Aug 19 15:43:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> <013401c3669f$43cf2cf0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Message-ID: <3F42A7AF.3050007@earthlink.net> It's not coming through the list because the list cuts off attachments. But it's coming from someone who reads the list, as a direct email. And the virus forges the From addresses, so it's not coming from who the email says it's from. gslrocks is wrong. Here is our info on the virus. I've gotten at least two myself. http://vil.nai.com/vil/content/v_100358.htm Those people who are getting it are those who post. If you don't post, you don't have to worry (about this). (Your email address won't have been exposed to the infected party.) Jimmy Kuo McAfee Fellow frank de wit wrote: >don't listen to anyone, only read for yourself : >http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/articles/bugbearb.html >bugbear has many variants >then buy sophos http://www.sophos.com/ and never bother about virusses >again... >I secure a +500 employee-office against 'virusses' with sophos products and >am very happy with it... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:05 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list > > > > >>bugbear is fiction take no action ...what the recommended removal is is >> >> >the > > >>removal of essential PC files that are not corrupt to begin with! >> >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 17:15:08 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Aug 19 16:15:08 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list In-Reply-To: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> Message-ID: Bugbear is NOT fiction w32.bugbear has a lot a varients and is a real virus and a dangerous one too. http://www.symantec.com.sg/avcenter/venc/data/w32.bugbear@mm.html Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Gslrocks@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 17:06 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list > > > bugbear is fiction take no action ...what the recommended removal > is is the > removal of essential PC files that are not corrupt to begin with! > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 17:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Tue Aug 19 16:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:=?iso-8859-1?Q?Widmanst=E4tten?= etch-a-sketch: epilogue References: <000501c35f53$6cc6fb90$b1dfc850@maxdata> Message-ID: <3F42B6E2.FC9A1EA4@att.net> Thanks for all the tips on- and off-list. I eventually was assured that a simple method is a wash with dilute nitric acid, followed by neutralization. I tried this, first cleaning the surface and then using the nitric. What is interesting is that the clear acid sits on the surface, and then one sees a dark reddish-brown "bloom" of color, and the color fades, and then the bloom occurs again, several times. I etched something alright, but I am not certain what. The typical cross-hatched pattern did not appear; rather, the bulk of the surface appeared frosted and dull, with a few shiny striations all running in the same direction. There were also two large black spots. I have decent digital photos if anyone wants them sent off-list as an attachment. In any case, the mission is accomplished and the components are revealed, such as they are. Thanks, Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 17:52:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Aug 19 16:52:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F42B823.3F78@Tomaszewski.net> Gslrocks@aol.com wrote: > > bugbear is fiction take no action ...what the recommended removal is is the > removal of essential PC files that are not corrupt to begin with! BugBear is a real virus. The jdbgmgr virus hoax is what you are thinking of. Please don't confuse them. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 17:57:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Aug 19 16:57:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: Message-ID: <3F42B958.56A0@Tomaszewski.net> J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > I got 4 emails from listmembers: Tersesa Masters, Armando, J Peterson and > Copperccg all infected with Bugbear virus. Everyone should be aware of this > problem. The addresses maybe spoofed but someone on the list has the virus. I am also receiving these. The headers indicate they are originating in Portugal. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 18:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Tue Aug 19 17:45:01 2003 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list In-Reply-To: <3F42B958.56A0@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Jimmy, Kriegh, you both explained things better than I could. I apologize for the inconvenience, but there's not much I can do, since the offending emails don't come through drizzle per se. Make sure your anti-virus software is up to date, and if you're using any mail client that utilizes any form of HTML or active scripting (Outlook / Outlook Express / Eudora? / Webmail systems), be very careful what you open. Make sure your attachment security settings at set to the highest level. However, if anyone would like me to forward the 23 messages the list recieved today from widows of dead African dictators and petroleum executives, just let me know. I figure at this rate, most of Africa should be out of nobility and businessmen in a few weeks.... ;-) Aaron Rockhounds Admin -- afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox "You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 18:54:48 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Aug 19 17:54:48 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list In-Reply-To: <3F42B958.56A0@Tomaszewski.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819145139.023801c0@mail.aloha.net> At 02:16 PM 8/19/2003, you wrote: >J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > > I got 4 emails from listmembers: Tersesa Masters, Armando, J Peterson and > > Copperccg all infected with Bugbear virus. Everyone should be aware of this > > problem. The addresses maybe spoofed but someone on the list has the virus. > >I am also receiving these. The headers indicate they are originating in >Portugal. We got 4 that appeared to be from the list because the subject lines were things like "Matrix and mud," or "Obsidian (Apache tears, Ametrine)." One subject was written in Portuguese (that could have meant Brazil). Like Bryan, one of ours was from Copperccg and 2 were from Armando, but the 2 supposedly from Armando had different addresses, neither of which are the one he really uses. There was also one whose subject was "Your Amazon.com Order #002-326..." but the address there for amazon.com was also wrong (fake). All of these were stopped by the postmaster at aloha.com, our e-mail service. To those of you who have provided info sites, thank you! Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 19:44:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Tue Aug 19 18:44:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819145139.023801c0@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3F42D27C.8020202@cox.net> Hi all About the virus, I use a Mac and cannot open .exe files. What I did was respond to what I believed was Armando asking what he had sent. I believed his message was spam and I know him to be a list member. Thinking his address had been farmed, I tried to query him rather than send the message on to Spamcop and the FTC. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 19:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Aug 19 18:50:01 2003 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: Message-ID: <3F42D3AB.556E@Tomaszewski.net> Aaron, No need to apologize. You do a great job of keeping the junk out of the list and it is appreciated. Kreigh Aaron Fox wrote: > > Jimmy, Kriegh, you both explained things better than I could. I apologize > for the inconvenience, but there's not much I can do, since the offending > emails don't come through drizzle per se. > > Make sure your anti-virus software is up to date, and if you're using any > mail client that utilizes any form of HTML or active scripting (Outlook / > Outlook Express / Eudora? / Webmail systems), be very careful what you > open. Make sure your attachment security settings at set to the highest > level. > > However, if anyone would like me to forward the 23 messages the list > recieved today from widows of dead African dictators and petroleum > executives, just let me know. I figure at this rate, most of Africa > should be out of nobility and businessmen in a few weeks.... ;-) > > Aaron > Rockhounds Admin > > -- > afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox > "You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape" > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:03:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:03:01 2003 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list In-Reply-To: <3F42D3AB.556E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: I wasn't complaining Aaron, I was just warning folks that they need to be aware of the problem. But most likely someone on the list is infected even tho we are getting the bad mail outside the list. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > Aaron, > > No need to apologize. You do a great job of keeping the junk out of the > list and it is appreciated. > > Kreigh > > > > Aaron Fox wrote: > > > > Jimmy, Kriegh, you both explained things better than I could. I > apologize > > for the inconvenience, but there's not much I can do, since the > offending > > emails don't come through drizzle per se. > > > > Make sure your anti-virus software is up to date, and if you're > using any > > mail client that utilizes any form of HTML or active scripting > (Outlook / > > Outlook Express / Eudora? / Webmail systems), be very careful what you > > open. Make sure your attachment security settings at set to the highest > > level. > > > > However, if anyone would like me to forward the 23 messages the list > > recieved today from widows of dead African dictators and petroleum > > executives, just let me know. I figure at this rate, most of Africa > > should be out of nobility and businessmen in a few weeks.... ;-) > > > > Aaron > > Rockhounds Admin > > > > -- > > afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox > > "You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape" > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:15:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:15:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> <013401c3669f$43cf2cf0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F42A7AF.3050007@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F42D9C2.1060406@cox.net> Jimmy, Hi! Can the bugbear pass through my Mac? Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:31:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jimmy Kuo) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:31:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <12f.300578c7.2c73f93f@aol.com> <013401c3669f$43cf2cf0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F42A7AF.3050007@earthlink.net> <3F42D9C2.1060406@cox.net> Message-ID: <3F42DD1C.5030306@earthlink.net> No. TA Masters wrote: > Jimmy, > Hi! Can the bugbear pass through my Mac? > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:40:08 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:40:08 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Global warming References: <002401c365d5$4a09c6e0$feb3950c@mel> <00d801c3666b$0fee11a0$69ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <008201c366c4$6b64d7e0$e0b3950c@mel> Got your message. The part I left out was tomorrow may be too late. It is not a good = feeling. Mel --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:40:15 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Mel Albright) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:40:15 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emeralds Message-ID: <008301c366c4$6c683e20$e0b3950c@mel> I was just in Puerto Vallarta last week. A silversmith/jeweler tried to = sell me two "Colombian" emeralds, marquise cut (but window pane = shallow). They were about 6x12mm. They were the right color but = unbelievably clear. He started at $2000 for the pair and was holding my = shoulder offering $400 when the tour bus left. Other than pure man-made = stuff, does anyone know what they might have been?? I can't see a reason = for the shallow cut otherwise. Mel Albright Call or hug someone you love today! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:55:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:55:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Loihi was Emerald Creek References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819091557.02392bf0@mail.aloha.net> <6.0.0.14.2.20030819114149.01d0f548@mail.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> <6.0.0.14.2.20030819100210.01cd97a8@mail.spiritone.com> <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819102524.02357c90@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <3F42E32A.4020108@cox.net> Kitty, Fascinating site, thank you very much. Terrie From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 20:56:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Tue Aug 19 19:56:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] XRD sieves for 2-theta: need to analyze output Message-ID: <3F42E370.D0BA24AE@att.net> Hi all, I am hoping someone, somewhere can help with this one. I have an XRD output for a previously unknown sample. The analyst identified the main constituent, hemimorphite, and I matched the appropriate 2-theta values for a Cu K alpha emitter to the card in the MDI database. However, there are a number of other peaks, and the sample was far from homogeneous, so I would like to know what those are. The computer program (MDI/JADE5) did not identify them, but the analyst suggested I still might be able to hand-slam the values. I am willing to try and will certainly lose nothing by the effort. >From what I understand, using sieve overlays was once a common method of data reduction. I am sure that now, using software is the order of the day and young grad students consider analyzing the data "quaint" or "archaic" (as one of my young grad student friends is wont to say). If anyone knows where I can get these, or has a set laying around that they are not using and want to sell, please let me know. d-spacing Don From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 21:24:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris Murray) Date: Tue Aug 19 20:24:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list In-Reply-To: <3F42D9C2.1060406@cox.net> Message-ID: <991AE442-D2BD-11D7-A176-000393A96092@mac.com> yes pass but not infect - kinda like being A symptomatic, show no signs but pass the disease on to others and they may show signs KM On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 07:15 PM, TA Masters wrote: > Jimmy, > Hi! Can the bugbear pass through my Mac? As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. -- Einstein --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 17:27:56 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 20 16:27:56 2003 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list Message-ID: <14b.23065837.2c755db8@aol.com> Well, did the bearbug get everybody? This is the longest I've gone without email in months. Just to be on topic, does anybody know any good place for rockhounds in Lakeview OR? I know about Davis Creek for obsidian and don't have much interest in digging for sunstones. I'm to old to dig. I like finding rocks on the surface, agate, wood, jasper with color, etc. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 18:38:40 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Scott R) Date: Wed Aug 20 17:38:40 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Am interested Message-ID: <000801c36605$89b1b3e0$7e4c0044@aztek001> I don't know much about the products. I found a Star Diamond saw with = three polishing wheels at a garage sale, It has the thinnest blade I = ever imagined. Anyway, I have some New Mexico agates that I wanted to cut and was out = looking for Star Diamond user manuals when I found your ad. What exactly are you selling and at what price?=20 Thanks --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 18:38:57 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gail Scowcroft) Date: Wed Aug 20 17:38:57 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Digging Arkansas quartz In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> References: <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: Hi Folks, I am heading to Arkansas to go digging next week. Summer just hasn't been hot enough up here(only kidding!). I am wondering if anyone has been digging there lately and what your success has been. I always hit Ron Coleman's for some easy pickings, but what's happening in Mt Ida? Thanks, Gail -- <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< Gail Scowcroft Tel: 401-874-6724 Associate Director FAX: 401-874-6486 Office of Marine Programs e-mail: gailscow@gso.uri.edu University of Rhode Island South Ferry Rd. Narragansett, RI 02882 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 19:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Wed Aug 20 18:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Am interested Message-ID: In a message dated 8/20/03 5:40:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, azketr1@cox.net writes: , It has the thinnest blade I ever imagined. Sounds like it could be a ProSlicer blade. Most diamond blades will not cut skin. They are actually very thin grinding wheels that use diamond to grind through rock. However, very thin diamond blades can cut skin, bones, etc.and when your hands are wet, which they are around some saws, your skin is very soft. Be carefull if you are hand-holding the rock. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 20:04:04 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Wed Aug 20 19:04:04 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Good, QUIET sites along the Oregon Coast Message-ID: Greetz, all, I'm looking for recommendations for list members for places along the Oregon Coast to visit later this summer. I've decided to take a little 4-day vacation from Portland the weekend before classes start again. I'd like to find somewhere quiet (a hike-in campsite is no problem!), but I'd also like to do some rockhound. Yes, I know beach agate hunting is a bit of a cop-out (normally, I'd be doing Washington Pass or Walker Valley this time of year...), but it's been a long summer and a stressful year. Anyone have any recommendations of good rockhounding beaches they are willing to share? TIA, Aaron -- afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox "You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 20:27:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Aug 20 19:27:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! Message-ID: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the classic elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from volcanic selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but green is a new one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the green? Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 20 23:34:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Peter J. Modreski) Date: Wed Aug 20 22:34:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <010c01c367a6$8fdf1620$4802560c@oemcomputer> Hi Kreigh, That's real interesting about the brightly fluorescent sulfur. I have no answer for it--who knows? (maybe someone does know something). It could be impurities in the sulfur, or a coating of some other mineral, or ____? As to the green color, it's probably not as unusual for sulfur to vary in color, lots of reasons--crystal size, impurities. It could not be pure sulfur, but sulfur mixed with clay minerals, sulfate minerals, many things that could form in the fumaroles. The Henkel Glossary of Fluorescent Minerals doesn't list much for fluorescent sulfur; just notes 2 reports each (not many) of SW and LW fl. sulfur, yellow-green and yellowish. I should look at my own sulfur specimens; I do have a box of Hawaiian samples (somewhere) that include some sulfur from fumaroles, collected about 25 years ago. Pete Modreski ----- Original Message ----- From: Kreigh Tomaszewski To: Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:53 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at > a volcano vent on Kilauea... Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a > greenish cast to them... and they were brilliant orange under short > wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 03:44:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Aug 21 02:44:01 2003 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <14b.23065837.2c755db8@aol.com> Message-ID: <000901c367c8$d515c640$d59f77d5@pandora.be> Right on topic: Grant, I was asked to make some photos of cerussite for a book editor in Holland... The photos are on my HDD, ready to send, but for the last two days I 've been doing nothing but fighting off virusses. My Norton Systemworks is up to date (08/20/03) and my Agnitum Firewall is OK too. I pay my provider to keep my mailbox virus free... still I get Burbear and Nimda like confetti in a ticker tape parade... Could this be a new virus that pretends to be Nimda or Bugbear? I get a warning every two minutes but nothing is found by Norton scanning the machine... weird, no? Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list > Well, did the bearbug get everybody? This is the longest I've gone without > email in months. > > Just to be on topic, does anybody know any good place for rockhounds in > Lakeview OR? I know about Davis Creek for obsidian and don't have much interest in > digging for sunstones. I'm to old to dig. I like finding rocks on the surface, > agate, wood, jasper with color, etc. > > Grant > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 05:42:59 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Stuart Schmitt) Date: Thu Aug 21 04:42:59 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Digging Arkansas quartz References: <003f01c3665f$8749e8c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030816110855.0234dd30@mail.aloha.net> <002701c364d4$aed2c9c0$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> <3F3FEEC7.5CF@rcn.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819084157.02351320@mail.aloha.net> Message-ID: <007401c367d9$4ad0d4f0$6400a8c0@STUART> It's blazing hot in Mount Ida right now. Randy has been digging some very nice crystals at Sweet Surrender and I've bought most of them. I think GW Johnson has been digging at Brewster mountain and I don't know about Fecho (fiddler's ridge). You can find more information on the Chamber Web site. http://www.mtidachamber.com/ I might as well use this opportunity to plug this years "World Championship Crystal Dig" sponsored by the Mount Ida Area Chamber of Commerce. The dig will be held October 9, 10, 11 and we should have four good mines participating. You can get the rest of the information on the chamber web site at: http://www.mtidachamber.com/crystal_dig_info.htm With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Sweet Surrender Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gail Scowcroft" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:45 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Digging Arkansas quartz > Hi Folks, > > I am heading to Arkansas to go digging next week. Summer just hasn't > been hot enough up here(only kidding!). I am wondering if anyone has > been digging there lately and what your success has been. I always > hit Ron Coleman's for some easy pickings, but what's happening in Mt > Ida? > > Thanks, Gail > -- > > <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< > > Gail Scowcroft Tel: 401-874-6724 > Associate Director FAX: 401-874-6486 > Office of Marine Programs e-mail: gailscow@gso.uri.edu > University of Rhode Island > South Ferry Rd. > Narragansett, RI 02882 > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 05:49:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Thu Aug 21 04:49:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <010c01c367a6$8fdf1620$4802560c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000901c367da$117cd130$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Sulfur can occasionally have a thin film of fluorescent hydrocarbon. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter J. Modreski" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:39 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > Hi Kreigh, > > That's real interesting about the brightly fluorescent sulfur. I have no > answer for it--who knows? (maybe someone does know something). It could be > impurities in the sulfur, or a coating of some other mineral, or ____? As > to the green color, it's probably not as unusual for sulfur to vary in > color, lots of reasons--crystal size, impurities. It could not be pure > sulfur, but sulfur mixed with clay minerals, sulfate minerals, many things > that could form in the fumaroles. > > The Henkel Glossary of Fluorescent Minerals doesn't list much for > fluorescent sulfur; just notes 2 reports each (not many) of SW and LW fl. > sulfur, yellow-green and yellowish. I should look at my own sulfur > specimens; I do have a box of Hawaiian samples (somewhere) that include some > sulfur from fumaroles, collected about 25 years ago. > > Pete Modreski > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:53 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > > > > Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at > > a volcano vent on Kilauea... Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a > massive druze) have a > > greenish cast to them... and they were brilliant orange under short > > wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 06:27:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (armando afonso) Date: Thu Aug 21 05:27:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <14b.23065837.2c755db8@aol.com> <000901c367c8$d515c640$d59f77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <004701c367dd$0241b5c0$97e1fea9@1> I have my Panda Platinium updated each day, and do not understand why this old messages are appearing back again and again. OK, until now , all the messages are related with minerals, none of the messages of my girlfriends or other subjects, so I am not too concerned. Anyway, it is a bit irritating. I appologise for the inconvenience, if I am really the responsable for this. Armando Afonso, Portugal From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 07:24:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Aug 21 06:24:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <14b.23065837.2c755db8@aol.com> <000901c367c8$d515c640$d59f77d5@pandora.be> <004701c367dd$0241b5c0$97e1fea9@1> Message-ID: <002f01c367e6$f9683140$335204d0@jim> I doubt you are responsible. One (at least) virus going around aliases the sender's address. I've gotten a number of "could not deliver" messages for messages I didn't send, that contained attachments of files that aren't on my computer. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "armando afonso" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:08 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list > I have my Panda Platinium updated each day, and do not understand why this > old messages are appearing back again and again. > OK, until now , all the messages are related with minerals, none of the > messages of my girlfriends or other subjects, so I am not too concerned. > Anyway, it is a bit irritating. > I appologise for the inconvenience, if I am really the responsable for this. > Armando Afonso, Portugal > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 07:29:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Thu Aug 21 06:29:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> Hmmmm, PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism training, but, bill and kitty had posted some time ago about finding these splotches of metallic substance on some of the cooled lava... wonder if this could be zinc from subducted deep sea zinc nodules, and that the coating you are seeing may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, not meant to lead anyone astray... but I think bill and kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at >a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the classic >elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. > >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from volcanic >selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but green is a new >one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the green? > >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short >wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? > >Kreigh >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 08:55:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Jokela) Date: Thu Aug 21 07:55:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> Message-ID: <001001c367f4$ff5d6da0$0e06efd1@oemcomputer> > >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short > >wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? ---------------------------------------------- Manuel Robbins' excellent book, "Fluorescence", p.192, mentions some Sicilian sulfurs fluorescing orange, strongest under LW; also that some Maybee, Michigan xls fluoresce weak yellow. Unfortunately there's no discussion of activators. Can't remember if anybody in the recent uproar over faked Sicilian sulfurs delved into the diagnostic properties of fluorescence; might be something worth looking up. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr, tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The mineralogy of Ontario, Canada: http://www.ontariominerals.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 09:42:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Aug 21 08:42:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Good, QUIET sites along the Oregon Coast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030821083933.01d20a60@mail.spiritone.com> Aaron, not this time of year. The beaches are all sanded in. The creeks however should be good. Try walking up them from the ocean. One good spot is Cummins creek ( about 4 miles south of Yachats) then on south from there is Tenmile Creek and Big Creek. Nice quartz crystals in Big Creek too. Some wood and red agate in Tenmile Creek. I have found agates up to 40 lbs. in Cummins creek. At 07:03 PM 8/20/2003, you wrote: Greetz, all, I'm looking for recommendations for list members for places along the Oregon Coast to visit later this summer. I've decided to take a little 4-day vacation from Portland the weekend before classes start again. I'd like to find somewhere quiet (a hike-in campsite is no problem!), but I'd also like to do some rockhound. Yes, I know beach agate hunting is a bit of a cop-out (normally, I'd be doing Washington Pass or Walker Valley this time of year...), but it's been a long summer and a stressful year. Anyone have any recommendations of good rockhounding beaches they are willing to share? TIA, Aaron -- afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox {quot}You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape"  _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 10:25:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 21 09:25:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Your application Message-ID: <200308211624.h7LGO8Y2012501@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Please see the attached file for details. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/octet-stream --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 10:26:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Thu Aug 21 09:26:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> Message-ID: <00a301c367ff$dafc6000$9a315841@powertech.net> When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology class) out to view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We found lots pf instances in the new lave what had colors such as gold and electric blue. W were told that the colors were due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not specified). but that what color it was depended on the thickness of this coating. It's like the very thin (usually one wavelength thick) metallic coatings they sometimes use to make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I have one small piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still looks the same. Margaret > Hmmmm, > PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism > training, but, bill and kitty had posted > some time ago about finding these splotches of metallic substance on > some of the cooled lava... > wonder if this could be zinc from subducted deep sea zinc nodules, and > that the coating you are seeing > may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, not meant to > lead anyone astray... > but I think bill and kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > >Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at > >a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the classic > >elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. > > > >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a > >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from volcanic > >selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but green is a new > >one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the green? > > > >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short > >wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > > > >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? > > > >Kreigh > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 10:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jimmy Kuo) Date: Thu Aug 21 09:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Your application References: <200308211624.h7LGO8Y2012501@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <3F44F4D0.8000808@earthlink.net> Now, this one did come through the list. But as you can see, the attachment has been stripped, because Aaron designed the list to do that, so we wouldn't get viruses through the list.. And, I'm sure if we accuse Aaron of sending it, he'll deny it to the death. :-) Jimmy afox@drizzle.com wrote: >Please see the attached file for details. > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > application/octet-stream >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 14:59:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT) Date: Thu Aug 21 13:59:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Locations ?? Message-ID: Greetings I will be in Charlotte NC the week of labor day. Anybody have anything special there they would be willing to share, rockshops, collecting sites or just plan ol' interesting sites? Thanks, Bill Bill Meyer KRATON LIQUID(R) Polymers 3333 Hwy 6 So. Roon CR-132 Houston TX 77082 281-668-3204 bill.meyer@kraton.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 16:31:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Cornish) Date: Thu Aug 21 15:31:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Locations ?? References: Message-ID: <000b01c36834$4573a220$88a3dccf@rockman> Hi Bill, Check this NC site out. Nice bunch of folks on the Message Board who I'd bet could help further. All the best, John http://mcrocks.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Meyer, Bill J KRT-KRT" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 1:58 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Locations ?? > Greetings > I will be in Charlotte NC the week of labor day. Anybody have anything > special there they would be willing to share, rockshops, collecting sites or > just plan ol' interesting sites? > Thanks, > Bill > > Bill Meyer > KRATON LIQUID(R) Polymers > 3333 Hwy 6 So. Roon CR-132 > Houston TX 77082 > 281-668-3204 > bill.meyer@kraton.com > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 17:07:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 21 16:07:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Thank you! Message-ID: <200308212306.h7LN607G030168@bubbleator.drizzle.com> See the attached file for details --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/octet-stream --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 18:14:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Aug 21 17:14:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bugbear loose in int list References: <14b.23065837.2c755db8@aol.com> <000901c367c8$d515c640$d59f77d5@pandora.be> <004701c367dd$0241b5c0$97e1fea9@1> Message-ID: <3F456054.1001@Tomaszewski.net> armando afonso wrote: > > I have my Panda Platinium updated each day, and do not understand why this > old messages are appearing back again and again. > OK, until now , all the messages are related with minerals, none of the > messages of my girlfriends or other subjects, so I am not too concerned. > Anyway, it is a bit irritating. > I appologise for the inconvenience, if I am really the responsable for this. > Armando Afonso, Portugal > Armando, The bugbear messages I have been receiving that appear to involve you have all come from a different ISP in Portugal than the one you used to send your message, so it is probably not you that is responsible. Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 18:22:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Aug 21 17:22:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Your application References: <200308211624.h7LGO8Y2012501@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <3F44F4D0.8000808@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F456242.536B@Tomaszewski.net> Jimmy Kuo wrote: > > Now, this one did come through the list. But as you can see, the > attachment has been stripped, because Aaron designed the list to do > that, so we wouldn't get viruses through the list.. > > And, I'm sure if we accuse Aaron of sending it, he'll deny it to the > death. :-) > > Jimmy > > afox@drizzle.com wrote: > > >Please see the attached file for details. > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >multipart/mixed > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > application/octet-stream > >--- Aron sends his messages from... Received: from drizzle.com (cascadia.drizzle.com [216.162.192.17]) by bubbleator.drizzle.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7K0iwn1029161 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:44:58 -0700 ...and the virus message claiming to come from him came from... Received: from PATLUNDGREN (0006256BBE00.cpe.nport.al.charter.com [67.97.203.178]) by bubbleator.drizzle.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7LGO8Y2012501 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:24:09 -0700 ...so I think his alibi is good. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 19:24:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (terry) Date: Thu Aug 21 18:24:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] West Virginia sites Message-ID: <001001c3684d$48259960$9a448141@r2t2g1> Greetings from Williamsport Pa. (the home of the LL World Series) We are going to be in the Morgantown area in mid September. Are there = any sites to dig in the northern to central part of WV? Thank you! Terry & Veneta --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 19:59:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Thu Aug 21 18:59:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Your application In-Reply-To: <3F44F4D0.8000808@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Now, this one did come through the list. But as you can see, the > attachment has been stripped, because Aaron designed the list to do > that, so we wouldn't get viruses through the list.. This is where things get annoying. I'm not sure how to stop these. Gnu Mailman matches the FROM address in the header to a list of known recipients. So, since I'm on the list, this post got through. I'll see if I can make Mailman smarter about this stuff. SpamAssassin only gave this a 1.4; the threshold for filtering is 4.0. So I'm going to have to get creative to block this crap. At least it kills the attachments... If you look at the headers of THIS message, you'll see it was created in Pine. The one TRUE email client. Now playing at a Linux box near you. If you look at the headers of these virusy emails, you'll see that the XSender and the From will often not match. Also, the message was composed using Outlook Express. So far, with the exception of some stack exploits in the distant past, nobody's come up with a Pine virus yet...;-) > And, I'm sure if we accuse Aaron of sending it, he'll deny it to the > death. :-) Right in one. ;-) afox Rockhounds Admin From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 20:10:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (teresa otis) Date: Thu Aug 21 19:10:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Digging Arkansas quartz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821051234.15786.qmail@web41101.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Gail, Go to Jay's Bonanza Rock shop on the east side of Mt. Ida. He's a friend of mine and probably knows whats going on right now. He also usually has some nice stuff on hand. I know he recently got back from shows in the North Carolina/Georgia area. Also, you might try a member of this list, Stuart Schmidt at Sweet Surrender mine. And if you have time, try Miner's Campground & Rock Shop in Murfreesboro. They are right outside the diamond mine and know of lots of places. Good hunting! Teresa Otis --- Gail Scowcroft wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I am heading to Arkansas to go digging next week. > Summer just hasn't > been hot enough up here(only kidding!). I am > wondering if anyone has > been digging there lately and what your success has > been. I always > hit Ron Coleman's for some easy pickings, but what's > happening in Mt > Ida? > > Thanks, Gail > -- > > <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< > <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< <;}}}}}>< > > Gail Scowcroft Tel: 401-874-6724 > Associate Director FAX: 401-874-6486 > Office of Marine Programs e-mail: > gailscow@gso.uri.edu > University of Rhode Island > South Ferry Rd. > Narragansett, RI 02882 > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 20:10:11 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Aug 21 19:10:11 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Good, QUIET sites along the Oregon Coast Message-ID: <3f447338.fb.0@sunshine-software.com> Have to add this... while it's not rocks, you should eat at one of my favorite places in the universe: Shark's Seafood in Newport, OR. Here's a review I did at Roadfood.com: http://www.roadfood.com/Reviews/Overview.aspx?RefID=1218 Hey... here's a new subject. Favorite places to eat at favorite collecting sites. Regards, Gary Catspaw Minerals http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk >Greetz, all, > >I'm looking for recommendations for list members for places along the >Oregon Coast to visit later this summer. .... http://netwinsite.com/dbabble/ From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 20:59:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Aug 21 19:59:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> Message-ID: <3F458714.4314@Tomaszewski.net> My (tentative) guess on the 'splotches' is silver. Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > > Hmmmm, > PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism > training, but, bill and kitty had posted > some time ago about finding these splotches of metallic substance on > some of the cooled lava... > wonder if this could be zinc from subducted deep sea zinc nodules, and > that the coating you are seeing > may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, not meant to > lead anyone astray... > but I think bill and kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > >Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at > >a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the classic > >elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. > > > >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a > >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from volcanic > >selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but green is a new > >one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the green? > > > >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short > >wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > > > >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? > > > >Kreigh > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 21:06:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Aug 21 20:06:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> <00a301c367ff$dafc6000$9a315841@powertech.net> Message-ID: <3F4588A0.39C4@Tomaszewski.net> Margaret, I collected some similar specimens and am very pleased to hear they will persist. Kreigh Margaret Malm wrote: > > When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology class) out to > view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We found lots pf instances in the > new lave what had colors such as gold and electric blue. W were told that > the colors were due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not > specified). but that what color it was depended on the thickness of this > coating. It's like the very thin (usually one wavelength thick) metallic > coatings they sometimes use to make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I > have one small piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still > looks the same. > Margaret > > > Hmmmm, > > PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism > > training, but, bill and kitty had posted > > some time ago about finding these splotches of metallic substance on > > some of the cooled lava... > > wonder if this could be zinc from subducted deep sea zinc nodules, and > > that the coating you are seeing > > may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, not meant to > > lead anyone astray... > > but I think bill and kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... > > > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > >Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at > > >a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the classic > > >elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. > > > > > >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a > > >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from volcanic > > >selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but green is a new > > >one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the green? > > > > > >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short > > >wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > > > > > >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? > > > > > >Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 21:21:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Thu Aug 21 20:21:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Good, QUIET sites along the Oregon Coast Message-ID: <7339539.1061522402152.JavaMail.nobody@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> There's a little Bar/Saloon/Restaurant on Netarts Bay (ocean side of Tillamook) and they have Netarts Bay Oysters. I had the cooked variety and it would rank as one of the best I've ever had. Then go south on Netarts Bay Rd up the hill to a park and the view from there, northward, of Netarts Bay and the ocean is magnificent. I didn't find much on the beach though. But this is good for even just a day trip from Portland. I presume you've been to the Rice Museum(!). And partaken of the Portland Rock Club (meets at OMSI Friday nights). Jimmy From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 21 22:20:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Peter J. Modreski) Date: Thu Aug 21 21:20:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur, etc. References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> <00a301c367ff$dafc6000$9a315841@powertech.net> Message-ID: <004301c36865$6f209de0$4f0e560c@oemcomputer> Those "metallic coatings" on minerals, and probably this applies to lava too, are often, or almost always, not really "metal", but just a thin film of iron oxide or any related mineral that can appear iridiscent. Thin coatings of goethite are common, and are often iridescent. Iridescent, rainbow-colored films can often be seen floating on the surface of very iron-rich seeps of water, such as are found at mine drainage sites, or even natural outcrops of pyrite-bearing shale that is weathering. Although these films looks like some kind of oil, I'm told that they are often thin films of iron oxide (probably goethite) that forms by oxidation at the water surface, of dissolved iron. Of course, all these iron minerals are not fluorescent, so this doesn't account for anything about the fluorescent sulfur! [P.S., the deep-sea nodules are manganese, not zinc. Of course, there are trace amounts of all sorts of metals in the lava and especially in the volcanic gases.] Sincerely, Pete Modreski ----- Original Message ----- From: Margaret Malm To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology class) out to > view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We found lots pf instances in the > new lave what had colors such as gold and electric blue. W were told that > the colors were due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not > specified). but that what color it was depended on the thickness of this > coating. It's like the very thin (usually one wavelength thick) metallic > coatings they sometimes use to make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I > have one small piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still > looks the same. > Margaret > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 00:56:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lea Silanos) Date: Thu Aug 21 23:56:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amethyst Site Question Message-ID: Hi Everyone! Thank you so much for welcoming me to the list! I have a question which I hope someone may be able to answer or perhaps provide direction to an answer. Not long ago, I heard about an amethyst site out near Wendover (Utah-Nevada state line). Unfortunately, I don't know any specifics about where the amethyst can be found. Does anyone happen to know more about this site? Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Lea   ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Get MSN 8 ------------------------------------------ and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 03:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (armando afonso) Date: Fri Aug 22 02:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur, etc. References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> <00a301c367ff$dafc6000$9a315841@powertech.net> <004301c36865$6f209de0$4f0e560c@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <001501c3688e$71fa9c40$97e1fea9@1> Hi, all. The calcite concretions in some caves in my area are particularily fluorescent (and phosforescent for seconds after exposure to uv). But this is limited to an external coating of what appears to be some sort of bacteria or fungae "skin". Only the surfaces that were exposed recently to the air of the cavities exhibit the fenomena.Perhaps that is something similar, no? Regards. Armando Afonso (Portugal) From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 07:22:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Linda Graves) Date: Fri Aug 22 06:22:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] FS - Arizona Cases In-Reply-To: References: <3F3FF540.E5143117@att.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030822092421.00a98850@mail.copper.net> Posting for a friend - please forgive if posting for sale items is not appropriate For Sale: Previously Owned Arizona Showcases A) two #AG231 34" x 22" x 11" clear glass locking doors B) one #AG231MD 34" x 22" x 11" mirrored locking glass doors C) two #AG431 34" x 22"x 11" open back cases D) one #BFC4 carrying cases; holds two AG231 cases A) $240.00 each B) $250.00 C) $145.00 each D) $120.00 PLUS PACKING AND SHIPPING Please contact Chuck Bennett at Diamond Pacific Tool Company - 800-253-2954 From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 09:33:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Aug 22 08:33:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky diamond mining Message-ID: <167.24a5c355.2c779175@aol.com> Hi group, I just heard via e-mail that the Lollypop kimberlite, an instrusive complex on Shawnee territory situated in Kentucky at the Illinois border, will be explored for diamonds. Can anyone on the list add any info? I know there used to be a diamond mine in Kentucky, and have seen nice olivine from there. The e-mail came from Rapaport News. Thanks, Dave Sunset Fossils & Minerals Morgantown, WV --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 09:48:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Diederik Visser) Date: Fri Aug 22 08:48:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky diamond mining References: <167.24a5c355.2c779175@aol.com> Message-ID: <001701c368c3$c5e77e60$9c193591@oemcomputer> Dear Dave, See also http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/030527/marum_stock_option_ky_1.html According to the info on this website Resource Finance & Investment Limited will start the exploration of the Lollypop intrusive complex immediately (2003). Cheers, Diederik Visser http://www.dvminerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:32 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky diamond mining > Hi group, > I just heard via e-mail that the Lollypop kimberlite, an instrusive > complex on Shawnee territory situated in Kentucky at the Illinois > border, will be explored for diamonds. Can anyone on the list add > any info? I know there used to be a diamond mine in Kentucky, and > have seen nice olivine from there. The e-mail came from Rapaport > News. Thanks, > Dave > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 10:35:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Fri Aug 22 09:35:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] Anti-Virus Measures Message-ID: I've set the Rockhounds list to trap messages with suspect subject lines (like 'I Love You' or 'Your Details'). However, this means that some legitimate messages may also get blocked. I'm reviewing all blocked messages, and, if yours happens to get hit, it will probably get forwarded to the list later that day or the next. This will work, at least until the virus polymorphs or starts using different subject lines. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for your patience. Aaron Fox Rockhounds Admin -- afox at drizzle dot com || http://www.drizzle.com/~afox "You can fix anything with a big enough hammer and a lot of duct tape" From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 10:50:49 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Fri Aug 22 09:50:49 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! In-Reply-To: <00a301c367ff$dafc6000$9a315841@powertech.net> Message-ID: <001701c368cd$089a7330$3f3e88d9@maxdata> Hi Margeret (et al.), The coating you are talking about is almost certainly not a METALLIC coating, although it looks like it. The irridiscent bluish color is caused by a very thin coating, of the order of magnitude of the light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called interference colors. It doesn't have to be a distinct mineral, it can be whatever amorphous (glassy) silicate compound. That can also be true for all the other coatings mentioned (also on sulphur) : green, reddish... it does not depend so much on the composition, but on the thickness of the layer. Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Malm *Sent: donderdag 21 augustus 2003 18:18 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! * * *When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology *class) out to view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We *found lots pf instances in the new lave what had colors such *as gold and electric blue. W were told that the colors were *due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not *specified). but that what color it was depended on the *thickness of this coating. It's like the very thin (usually *one wavelength thick) metallic coatings they sometimes use to *make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I have one small *piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still *looks the same. Margaret * * *> Hmmmm, *> PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism *> training, but, bill and kitty had posted some time ago about finding *> these splotches of metallic substance on some of the cooled lava... *> wonder if this could be zinc from subducted deep sea zinc *nodules, and *> that the coating you are seeing *> may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, not meant to *> lead anyone astray... *> but I think bill and kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... *> *> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: *> *> >Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected *some sulfur *> >at a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the *> >classic elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. *> > *> >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a *> >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from *> >volcanic selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but *> >green is a new one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the *> >green? *> > *> >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under *> >short wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run *across this *> >before? *> > *> >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? *> > *> >Kreigh *> >_______________________________________________ *> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> >Subscription Services: *> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> > *> > *> > *> > *> *> *> *> _______________________________________________ *> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *> Subscription Services: *> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds *> * *_______________________________________________ *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *Subscription Services: *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds * * From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 11:31:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Fri Aug 22 10:31:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] pollucite website Message-ID: <001101c368d3$12c1e130$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> The brief story of the mining of pollucite in Oxford County, Maine is = now up.=20 www.geocities.com/mainemininghistory/rush1 Contains some local history and genealogy, but mostly a story of a = mineral "rush" that mostly went unnoticed in the area as the land was = closely held. Will eventually expand the story with all the references, more = background, photos of the localities, etc. If you have any details to offer, please let me know. Sincerely, Van --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 11:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Aug 22 10:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3F442E04.14D4@Tomaszewski.net> <3F44C9C6.5050401@ptd.net> Message-ID: <007e01c368c2$d7688040$459d77d5@pandora.be> Wouldn't the zinc need some cadmium to fluoresce? The orange color is indeed what you would expect from that tandem... When we think of bitumen in sulfur, we usually think of bacterial formation of sulfur.... don't we? Wouldn't temperatures in fumaroles be too high for hydrocarbons to survive? Is there any sodalite, hauyn or nosean present in the lavas? Maybe finely dispersed in the sulfur? Here's another good question... can disulfide groups occur in sulfur crystals? Actual chemical bonds between two sulfur atoms... Usually those are good for an orange fluorescence (tugtupite, sodalite, hackmanite, hauyn, nosean...) Just thoughts... those are possible again now that the weather cooled down to a mere pleasant 25° C... Sunday will be warmer again according to the meteo... Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Buffenmyer" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > Hmmmm, > PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism > training, but, bill and kitty had posted > some time ago about finding these splotches of metallic substance on > some of the cooled lava... > wonder if this could be zinc from subducted deep sea zinc nodules, and > that the coating you are seeing > may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, not meant to > lead anyone astray... > but I think bill and kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > >Last week while visiting with Kitty and Bill I collected some sulfur at > >a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the classic > >elongated form for sulfur and are really beautiful. > > > >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a massive druze) have a > >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from volcanic > >selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but green is a new > >one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the green? > > > >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under short > >wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run across this before? > > > >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? > > > >Kreigh > >_______________________________________________ > >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > >Subscription Services: > >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 14:49:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Fri Aug 22 13:49:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! In-Reply-To: <001701c368cd$089a7330$3f3e88d9@maxdata> Message-ID: <000a01c368ee$ab4b74a0$3f3e88d9@maxdata> correction : ...magnitude of the WAVELENGTH OF THE light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called *interference colors sorry, Rik DILLEN *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Rik Dillen *Sent: vrijdag 22 augustus 2003 18:47 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! * * *Hi Margeret (et al.), * *The coating you are talking about is almost certainly not a *METALLIC coating, although it looks like it. The irridiscent *bluish color is caused by a very thin coating, of the order of *magnitude of the light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called *interference colors. It doesn't have to be a distinct mineral, *it can be whatever amorphous (glassy) silicate compound. That *can also be true for all the other coatings mentioned (also on *sulphur) : green, reddish... it does not depend so much on the *composition, but on the thickness of the layer. * *Greetings, * *Rik DILLEN *Doornstraat 15 *B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas *Belgium * *Tel. + 32 3 7706007 *E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be * *Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen *>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite *and more) *>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) *postage stamp ! *>>> Exchange list * *Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ *>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! * * **-----Original Message----- **From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com **[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Malm **Sent: donderdag 21 augustus 2003 18:18 **To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com **Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! ** ** **When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology **class) out to view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We **found lots pf instances in the new lave what had colors such **as gold and electric blue. W were told that the colors were **due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not **specified). but that what color it was depended on the **thickness of this coating. It's like the very thin (usually **one wavelength thick) metallic coatings they sometimes use to **make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I have one small **piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still **looks the same. Margaret ** ** **> Hmmmm, **> PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism **> training, but, bill and kitty had posted some time ago *about finding **> these splotches of metallic substance on some of the *cooled lava... *> wonder if this could be zinc from subducted *deep sea zinc **nodules, and **> that the coating you are seeing **> may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, *not meant to *> lead anyone astray... *> but I think bill and *kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... *> *> Kreigh *Tomaszewski wrote: *> *> >Last week while visiting with Kitty *and Bill I collected **some sulfur **> >at a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the **> >classic elongated form for sulfur and are really *beautiful. *> > *> >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a *massive druze) have a **> >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from **> >volcanic selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but **> >green is a new one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the **> >green? **> > **> >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under **> >short wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run **across this **> >before? **> > **> >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? **> > *> >Kreigh *> >_______________________________________________ **> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List **> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds **> >Subscription Services: **> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds **> > **> > **> > **> > **> **> **> **> _______________________________________________ **> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List **> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds **> Subscription Services: **> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds **> ** **_______________________________________________ **Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List **WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds **Subscription Services: **http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ** ** * * *_______________________________________________ *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *Subscription Services: *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds * * From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 15:21:04 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Fri Aug 22 14:21:04 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! In-Reply-To: <000a01c368ee$ab4b74a0$3f3e88d9@maxdata> Message-ID: For some time I have a question concerning fluorescence too. Maybe somebody knows the answer? Did you ever look to fluorescence through a spectroscope? I discovered something I can not explain. A continuous spectrum! Fluorescence is caused electrons falling back from higher energy levels. These levels are called orbitals. In an atom or bond are only a few orbitals, so falling electrons can only fall for a specific "distances". In other words the electrons can emit only a few fixed amounts of energy corresponding to the different orbitals. A spectrum should therefore be a line spectrum with a few, maybe a dozen lines. (quantum physics) Some minerals show perfect lines, but others show a continuous spectrum. I haven't found a sound explanation for this, but I discovered a regularity. I think it works for all fluorescent minerals, but obviosly I did not try them all :-) So far all minerals producing a spectrum are minerals which are always fluorescent. The fluorescence is in the structure of the mineral itself. Examples are for instance the various uranyl minerals. Minerals with a continuous spectrum are those in which the fluorescence is caused by admixtures. Minerals like calcite, sphalerite or fluorite. In case of a line spectrum the lines can give a clue about the mineral identity. It might be of any help in the sulphur problem. Cheers, Maurice -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Rik Dillen Sent: vrijdag 22 augustus 2003 22:48 To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! correction : ...magnitude of the WAVELENGTH OF THE light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called *interference colors sorry, Rik DILLEN *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Rik Dillen *Sent: vrijdag 22 augustus 2003 18:47 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! * * *Hi Margeret (et al.), * *The coating you are talking about is almost certainly not a *METALLIC coating, although it looks like it. The irridiscent *bluish color is caused by a very thin coating, of the order of *magnitude of the light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called *interference colors. It doesn't have to be a distinct mineral, *it can be whatever amorphous (glassy) silicate compound. That *can also be true for all the other coatings mentioned (also on *sulphur) : green, reddish... it does not depend so much on the *composition, but on the thickness of the layer. * *Greetings, * *Rik DILLEN *Doornstraat 15 *B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas *Belgium * *Tel. + 32 3 7706007 *E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be * *Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen *>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite *and more) *>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) *postage stamp ! *>>> Exchange list * *Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ *>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! * * **-----Original Message----- **From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com **[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Malm **Sent: donderdag 21 augustus 2003 18:18 **To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com **Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! ** ** **When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology **class) out to view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We **found lots pf instances in the new lave what had colors such **as gold and electric blue. W were told that the colors were **due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not **specified). but that what color it was depended on the **thickness of this coating. It's like the very thin (usually **one wavelength thick) metallic coatings they sometimes use to **make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I have one small **piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still **looks the same. Margaret ** ** **> Hmmmm, **> PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism **> training, but, bill and kitty had posted some time ago *about finding **> these splotches of metallic substance on some of the *cooled lava... *> wonder if this could be zinc from subducted *deep sea zinc **nodules, and **> that the coating you are seeing **> may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, *not meant to *> lead anyone astray... *> but I think bill and *kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... *> *> Kreigh *Tomaszewski wrote: *> *> >Last week while visiting with Kitty *and Bill I collected **some sulfur **> >at a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the **> >classic elongated form for sulfur and are really *beautiful. *> > *> >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a *massive druze) have a **> >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from **> >volcanic selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but **> >green is a new one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the **> >green? **> > **> >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under **> >short wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run **across this **> >before? **> > **> >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? **> > *> >Kreigh *> >_______________________________________________ **> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List **> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds **> >Subscription Services: **> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds **> > **> > **> > **> > **> **> **> **> _______________________________________________ **> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List **> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds **> Subscription Services: **> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds **> ** **_______________________________________________ **Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List **WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds **Subscription Services: **http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds ** ** * * *_______________________________________________ *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds *Subscription Services: *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds * * _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 17:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Ebsary) Date: Fri Aug 22 16:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip References: <007e01c36662$93c22bf0$6601a8c0@moose> Message-ID: <00f201c36907$0dcc82a0$c07405d1@jim> Hi Gary is the location for your training CFB Borden? Jim Ebsary ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Brown To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:00 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip > I am going to be giving some training at an Air Force base around 100km > north of Toronto. I was thinking of flying up early and making a > weekend collecting trip to Sudbury. I'll be going up the last weekend > in September. A couple of questions.... > > How long will it take me to drive from Toronto to Sudbury? > Will collecting sites still be open? > Any good ideas for a 1-day jaunt...minimum time/maximum return kind of > question. > > Thanks much! > > Gary Brown > Catspaw Minerals > http://www.catspaw-minerals.com > Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 17:45:59 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Fri Aug 22 16:45:59 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! Message-ID: <6683711.1061595907613.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Rik, Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because isn't silicon a metal? Jimmy ----- Hi Margeret (et al.), The coating you are talking about is almost certainly not a METALLIC coating, although it looks like it. The irridiscent bluish color is caused by a very thin coating, of the order of magnitude of the light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called interference colors. It doesn't have to be a distinct mineral, it can be whatever amorphous (glassy) silicate compound. That can also be true for all the other coatings mentioned (also on sulphur) : green, reddish... it does not depend so much on the composition, but on the thickness of the layer. Greetings, Rik DILLEN From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 18:39:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Fri Aug 22 17:39:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Locations ?? Message-ID: Hi Bill, If you are interested in microminerals, the old Foote Mine dumps are accessible, and I could probably spring some time free to take you there. Loads of rare micros, and access is pretty easy. It's at Kings Mountain, about half an hour west of Charlotte. There is also a surprisingly good mineral exhibit at the Schiele Museum in Gastonia, which is between Charlotte and Kings Mountain. Ed Robson In a message dated 8/21/03 5:01:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bill.meyer@kraton.com writes: > > Greetings > I will be in Charlotte NC the week of labor day. Anybody have anything > special there they would be willing to share, rockshops, collecting sites or > just plan ol' interesting sites? > Thanks, > Bill > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 19:17:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kenneth Quinn) Date: Fri Aug 22 18:17:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <6683711.1061595907613.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: > > Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because isn't silicon > a metal? Silicon is an element, and is considered a semi-metal, having properties intermediate between metals and nonmetals. Silicates are minerals which incorporate the silicon - oxygen tetrahedral structure in which a silicon atom is surrounded by three oxygen atoms. Kenneth Quinn From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 19:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Don H) Date: Fri Aug 22 18:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Locations ?? References: Message-ID: <3F46C172.65DE7A13@att.net> Hi Bill, This is a (hopefully) friendly and helpful reminder to encourage more specific subject lines. When I saw the original, I glanced over it because I was busy. When I saw this one and noticed my old acquaintance Ed was the sender, I took a look to see what he had to say. If the original subject had been "Locations near Charlotte NC," I would have read it, and recommended the Foote Mine also! I can definitely recommend spending some time with Ed, if possible. He is an eager collector and a kind host. He may even show you where the Hardee's in Kings Mountain is. Bill, I'll forward your message to my friend Jason Smith, an amazing young collector who is considered by many to be the new keeper of Foote Mine minerals. I don't know his schedule, but he may be willing to e-mail you and maybe meet up with you. Funny how things relate: just this morning I sent Jason a box of Foote minerals I collected with Ed in 1999, hoping he can ID some of the ones I can't or don't have time for. That brought back memories of a truly pleasant field trip that took place four years ago next month. Have fun, Don EDewindtro@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Bill, > If you are interested in microminerals, the old Foote Mine dumps are > accessible, and I could probably spring some time free to take you there. Loads of > rare micros, and access is pretty easy. It's at Kings Mountain, about half an > hour west of Charlotte. There is also a surprisingly good mineral exhibit at > the Schiele Museum in Gastonia, which is between Charlotte and Kings Mountain. > Ed Robson > > In a message dated 8/21/03 5:01:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bill.meyer@kraton.com writes: > > > > Greetings > > I will be in Charlotte NC the week of labor day. Anybody have anything > > special there they would be willing to share, rockshops, collecting sites or > > just plan ol' interesting sites? > > Thanks, > > Bill From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 19:51:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Chengi Kuo) Date: Fri Aug 22 18:51:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! Message-ID: <3303006.1061603402336.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Thank you, Ken. It was nice to be able to think about something else for 5 seconds today, other than viruses. :-) Jimmy ----- > Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because isn't silicon > a metal? Silicon is an element, and is considered a semi-metal, having properties intermediate between metals and nonmetals. Silicates are minerals which incorporate the silicon - oxygen tetrahedral structure in which a silicon atom is surrounded by three oxygen atoms. Kenneth Quinn From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 19:57:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Aug 22 18:57:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also I believe native silicon is rare whereas silicon dioxide is everywhere. Bryan "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because > isn't silicon > > a metal? > > Silicon is an element, and is considered a semi-metal, having properties > intermediate between metals and nonmetals. Silicates are minerals which > incorporate the silicon - oxygen tetrahedral structure in which a silicon > atom is surrounded by three oxygen atoms. > > Kenneth Quinn From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 22 20:45:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Aug 22 19:45:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: Message-ID: <3F46D535.60B5@Tomaszewski.net> My list of known native elements is very short (Gold, Silver, Copper, Platinum, Arsenic, Antimony, Bismuth, Mercury, Iron, Sulfur, Diamond, Graphite, Tellurium {and Nickel from meteorites}). I was not aware that native Silicon (or any other elements) had been found. Can you provide any details for native Silicon being found? J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > Also I believe native silicon is rare whereas silicon dioxide is everywhere. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because > > isn't silicon > > > a metal? > > > > Silicon is an element, and is considered a semi-metal, having properties > > intermediate between metals and nonmetals. Silicates are minerals which > > incorporate the silicon - oxygen tetrahedral structure in which a silicon > > atom is surrounded by three oxygen atoms. > > > > Kenneth Quinn > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 23 02:28:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Maurice de Graaf) Date: Sat Aug 23 01:28:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! In-Reply-To: <3F46D535.60B5@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Native silicon is formed in some volcanic fumarols (Tolbachik), but it is very rare. The formation of it shows the unfamiliar chemistry of fumaroles. At the high temp in fumarols silicon is transported as SiO gas. Normally silicon oxide is SiO2 with silicon being 4+. In SiO silicon is 2+, which is rare. When the SiO gas reaches the surface the 2 SiO will dissociate in Si (native silicon) and one SiO2, mostly cristoballite. As for your list I can add some more native elements: Sn, In, Zn, Os, Ir, Cd, Ru, Pd, Ti, Pb, Cr, Se, and there are definitely more of them, but I'm too lazy to get a book :-) Cheers, Maurice -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: zaterdag 23 augustus 2003 5:25 To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! My list of known native elements is very short (Gold, Silver, Copper, Platinum, Arsenic, Antimony, Bismuth, Mercury, Iron, Sulfur, Diamond, Graphite, Tellurium {and Nickel from meteorites}). I was not aware that native Silicon (or any other elements) had been found. Can you provide any details for native Silicon being found? J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > Also I believe native silicon is rare whereas silicon dioxide is everywhere. > > Bryan > > "Si vis pacem para bellum" > > > > > > > Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because > > isn't silicon > > > a metal? > > > > Silicon is an element, and is considered a semi-metal, having properties > > intermediate between metals and nonmetals. Silicates are minerals which > > incorporate the silicon - oxygen tetrahedral structure in which a silicon > > atom is surrounded by three oxygen atoms. > > > > Kenneth Quinn > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 23 08:37:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (dvoorhees) Date: Sat Aug 23 07:37:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky diamond mining Message-ID: <3F474518@webmail.sisd.net> I was present at the discovery of the Lollypop Anomaly back in about 1982, or thereabouts. I was working at the time for Moody Minerals; Moody had brought in Billiton Exploration (Shell Oil) to explore the area for zinc. Historically, the zinc in Western Kentucky was closely associated with peridotite dikes (i.e., The Old Jim with a dike in the center of the carbonate ore, and the Hutson, with several dikes in and through the replacement sulfide ore). We had determined that the peridotite, although usually weathered to the point that is was extremely difficult or impossible to identify on the surface even in locations where it was known to crop out, had a definite magnetic signature that could be picked up with a hand held magnetometer. Billiton decided to fly airborne magnetics over the whole area to see if that tool was also as efficient as the ground magnetics. When the map of the air-magnetics came back, we could pick out all of the known dikes by their magnetic signature, and several similar magnetic signatures without known dikes were also seen as future exploration targets. That all aside, there was an anomaly in the data. In the area near the village of Sheridan, Crittenden County, there was a circular magnetic feature with a tail that extended about the diameter of the circle to the south along the Holly-Crystal Mine trend (which is associated with peridotite dikes). Of course this excited the big bosses from Billiton. We spent the next year and a half, or so, looking for zinc deposits associated with the Lollypop, but found none of commercial size. Within the Lollypop, we found a new and unknown peridotite plug, which we named the Miner (after the man who lived on the surface; he did not have the minerals). This was in a place in the Lollypop that was not particularly strong magnetically. This plug was discovered in a creek and followed down the creek for about 100 yards. It was drilled about 50-yards from the creek, but zinc was not found. The Lollypop Anomaly is not a solid plug of peridotite, unless this occurs at great depth. We drilled several fairly deep holes through the Stl Louis and Warsaw Limestones and in places encountered no peridotite at all. There is another peridotite plug just north of the Hutson mine underneath a round hill that rises about 10 feet above the surrounding ground. This is south of the creek, across the paved road from the house and behind the barn. An angle hole penetrated solid peridotite for several hundred feet and was stopped in peridotite. The idea of diamonds in the peridotite we were finding was ever in our minds, but none were found and the idea became a joking matter among us. There is mention of the possibility of diamonds in these rocks in one of the early publications, but I don't have them at hand. (Fohs, Weller, Ulrich and Smith). They found no indication that diamonds were present, but recognized that this was indeed "elephant country", and not to be surprised if diamonds should be found. Don Voorhees 2920 Gaston El Paso, Texas 79935 >===== Original Message From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com ===== >Hi group, > I just heard via e-mail that the Lollypop kimberlite, an instrusive >complex on Shawnee territory situated in Kentucky at the Illinois >border, will be explored for diamonds. Can anyone on the list add >any info? I know there used to be a diamond mine in Kentucky, and >have seen nice olivine from there. The e-mail came from Rapaport >News. Thanks, >Dave >Sunset Fossils & Minerals >Morgantown, WV > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 23 09:10:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 23 08:10:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: <3303006.1061603402336.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006c01c36988$aedb9240$5aaa77d5@pandora.be> Global virus warming? Anyone???? Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chengi Kuo" To: Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 3:59 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > Thank you, Ken. > > It was nice to be able to think about something else for 5 seconds today, other than viruses. :-) > > Jimmy > > ----- > > > Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because isn't > silicon > > a metal? > > Silicon is an element, and is considered a semi-metal, having properties > intermediate between metals and nonmetals. Silicates are minerals which > incorporate the silicon - oxygen tetrahedral structure in which a silicon > atom is surrounded by three oxygen atoms. > > Kenneth Quinn > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 23 09:52:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 23 08:52:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! References: Message-ID: <008001c3698e$8f45e1a0$5aaa77d5@pandora.be> Hi Maurice, ther ARE some fluorescent minerals that show spectral lines superimposed on a "continuous" spectrum . Mostly those that are activated by rare earths. There is a nice example in Sterling Gleasons "Ultraviolet Guide To Minerals", page 217. Also uranyl activated minerals have a spectrum that consists of broad bands and thus is non-continuous. I did some photo's of those through a home built spectroscope to illustrate the difference in fluorescence between willemite and uranium minerals. Take a look at http://www.minerant.org/intro/hyaliet_Erongo.html . (It's in Dutch but I plan to have it translated soon. For the other members of the list, that is. Maurice is Dutch) There are several reason why minerals do not show "quantized" fluorescence. The three most important (I think) are these : - UV can jolt electrons right OUT of the atoms. When the electrons fall back to their orbits, they do so from a non-specified energy-level outside the atom (in the crystal lattice, the UV also knocks them out of the so called electron traps). If the "electron jump" is not defined qua energy, it can have a wide and continuous range of energies. Therefore the emitted light looks continuous. Most of these minerals have a strong phosphorescense too. Willemite is a good example. - The fluorescent ions in minerals are often impurities which are pushed and pulled on electrostatically by surrounding atoms. This rejection and attraction causes deformation of the outer electron shells of these atoms which, in turn, creates the suitable energy jumps for fluorescense. There is a vibration in any crystal lattice caused by thermal energy. As a result the effect of the pulling and pushing gets "smeared out" over a certain erea around each atoms. Broadening of the spectral lines is the result. - Hydrocarbons and humic/fulvic acid are organic substances that are often the activator in calcite, barite and fluorite. Organics do not show spectral lines in their fluorescence. Everybody agree? Earl? Pete? Don? Anybody? Comments are welcome... Cheers Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maurice de Graaf" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > For some time I have a question concerning fluorescence too. Maybe somebody > knows the answer? > > Did you ever look to fluorescence through a spectroscope? I discovered > something I can not explain. A continuous spectrum! Fluorescence is caused > electrons falling back from higher energy levels. These levels are called > orbitals. In an atom or bond are only a few orbitals, so falling electrons > can only fall for a specific "distances". In other words the electrons can > emit only a few fixed amounts of energy corresponding to the different > orbitals. A spectrum should therefore be a line spectrum with a few, maybe a > dozen lines. (quantum physics) > > Some minerals show perfect lines, but others show a continuous spectrum. > > I haven't found a sound explanation for this, but I discovered a regularity. > I think it works for all fluorescent minerals, but obviosly I did not try > them all :-) So far all minerals producing a spectrum are minerals which are > always fluorescent. The fluorescence is in the structure of the mineral > itself. Examples are for instance the various uranyl minerals. > > Minerals with a continuous spectrum are those in which the fluorescence is > caused by admixtures. Minerals like calcite, sphalerite or fluorite. > > In case of a line spectrum the lines can give a clue about the mineral > identity. It might be of any help in the sulphur problem. > > Cheers, > Maurice > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Rik Dillen > Sent: vrijdag 22 augustus 2003 22:48 > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > > > correction : ...magnitude of the WAVELENGTH OF THE light it > absorbs/transmits/reflects - called > *interference colors > > sorry, > > Rik DILLEN > > *-----Original Message----- > *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Rik Dillen > *Sent: vrijdag 22 augustus 2003 18:47 > *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > *Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > * > * > *Hi Margeret (et al.), > * > *The coating you are talking about is almost certainly not a > *METALLIC coating, although it looks like it. The irridiscent > *bluish color is caused by a very thin coating, of the order of > *magnitude of the light it absorbs/transmits/reflects - called > *interference colors. It doesn't have to be a distinct mineral, > *it can be whatever amorphous (glassy) silicate compound. That > *can also be true for all the other coatings mentioned (also on > *sulphur) : green, reddish... it does not depend so much on the > *composition, but on the thickness of the layer. > * > *Greetings, > * > *Rik DILLEN > *Doornstraat 15 > *B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > *Belgium > * > *Tel. + 32 3 7706007 > *E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > * > *Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > *>>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite > *and more) > *>>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) > *postage stamp ! > *>>> Exchange list > * > *Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > *>>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! > * > * > **-----Original Message----- > **From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > **[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Malm > **Sent: donderdag 21 augustus 2003 18:18 > **To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > **Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! > ** > ** > **When I was in Hawaii several years ago I went (with a geology > **class) out to view the lava pouring off into the ocean. We > **found lots pf instances in the new lave what had colors such > **as gold and electric blue. W were told that the colors were > **due to a very thin metallic coating (what metal was not > **specified). but that what color it was depended on the > **thickness of this coating. It's like the very thin (usually > **one wavelength thick) metallic coatings they sometimes use to > **make fine filters. It was beautiful stuff. I have one small > **piece (electric blue), and even after 10 years or so it still > **looks the same. Margaret > ** > ** > **> Hmmmm, > **> PURE speculation on my part as have no formal hawaiian volcanism > **> training, but, bill and kitty had posted some time ago > *about finding > **> these splotches of metallic substance on some of the > *cooled lava... *> wonder if this could be zinc from subducted > *deep sea zinc > **nodules, and > **> that the coating you are seeing > **> may be this fluorescent zinc compound... just a thought, > *not meant to *> lead anyone astray... *> but I think bill and > *kitty may be finding some interesting stuff... *> *> Kreigh > *Tomaszewski wrote: *> *> >Last week while visiting with Kitty > *and Bill I collected > **some sulfur > **> >at a volcano vent on Kilauea. Under a lens these crystals have the > **> >classic elongated form for sulfur and are really > *beautiful. *> > *> >Some of these crystal groups (kinda like a > *massive druze) have a > **> >greenish cast to them. Now I've run into reddish crystals from > **> >volcanic selenium contamination before, and grey from arsenic, but > **> >green is a new one to me. Any ideas of what might be causing the > **> >green? > **> > > **> >Tonight I stuck them under UV and they were brilliant orange under > **> >short wave, which I really did not expect. Has anyone run > **across this > **> >before? > **> > > **> >Any suggestions for what I might have? Or is it lab time? > **> > *> >Kreigh *> >_______________________________________________ > **> >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > **> >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > **> >Subscription Services: > **> >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > **> > > **> > > **> > > **> > > **> > **> > **> > **> _______________________________________________ > **> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > **> WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > **> Subscription Services: > **> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > **> > ** > **_______________________________________________ > **Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > **WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > **Subscription Services: > **http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > ** > ** > * > * > *_______________________________________________ > *Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > *WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > *Subscription Services: > *http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > * > * > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 23 11:20:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Aug 23 10:20:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky diamond mining Message-ID: <12d.2fcf5f4c.2c78fc3b@aol.com> Hi Don, Thanks for additional info. Since Kentucky borders WV, it is of local interest. We have two peridotite dikes in this state, which have never been explored at all. Finding diamonds is a joke for us also. Although there was a 32 carat diamond found in the southern part of the state, and it had to come from somewhere. Thanks again, Dave --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 23 15:36:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Rik Dillen) Date: Sat Aug 23 14:36:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur -> Si versus silicate In-Reply-To: <6683711.1061595907613.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001101c369be$67b89a80$4a3288d9@maxdata> See below and greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15 B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium Tel. + 32 3 7706007 E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals (ardennite, vantasselite, ferristrunzite and more) >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ >>> The Dana errata page, the Virtual Quarry and much more ! *-----Original Message----- *From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com *[mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Chengi Kuo *Sent: zaterdag 23 augustus 2003 1:55 *To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com *Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent Sulfur?!! * * *Rik, * *Is there a distinction about silicon and silicate? Because isn't silicon a metal? * >>>>> Silicon is the (semi-metallic) element Si, Silicon, a silicate is a product consisting of SiO4 tetrahedra. Silicates are oxidic, silicon is metallic. Greetings, Rik From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 24 21:51:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Aug 24 20:51:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report (Hawai`i) Message-ID: <3F4987C4.CFF@Tomaszewski.net> I've posted a trip report on my website, with some (very bad) pictures, for my recent visit to Hawai`i. However. I'm running out of disk space on my server and had to degrade image quality to make it all fit (and hope to have the problem fixed in a few weeks). My apoligies as the posted pictures don't begin to do justice to the experience. You can view the report at http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/FieldTrips.shtml but you will have to scroll past Kitty and Bill's report about their visit to the lava flows on Hawaii to find it (but take your time as their report is worth the visit). Kreigh From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 25 01:01:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Aug 25 00:01:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report (Hawai`i) In-Reply-To: <3F4987C4.CFF@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030824191443.02b14b30@mail.aloha.net> Great report, Kreigh. Your pictures are remarkably good considering you used disposable cameras! As an artist I see some excellent artistic composition in some of your photos. List: these are neat, nice people! Aloha, Kitty & Bill At 05:51 PM 8/24/2003, you wrote: >I've posted a trip report on my website, with some (very bad) pictures, >for my recent visit to Hawai`i. However. I'm running out of disk space >on my server and had to degrade image quality to make it all fit (and >hope to have the problem fixed in a few weeks). My apoligies as the >posted pictures don't begin to do justice to the experience. > >You can view the report at > > http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/FieldTrips.shtml > >but you will have to scroll past Kitty and Bill's report about their >visit to the lava flows on Hawaii to find it (but take your time as >their report is worth the visit). > >Kreigh --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 25 08:28:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Aug 25 07:28:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip In-Reply-To: <00f201c36907$0dcc82a0$c07405d1@jim> Message-ID: <012d01c36b14$e376d680$6601a8c0@moose> Indeed it is! You wouldn't happen to be nearby, would you? Regards, GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ebsary > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 6:42 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip > > > Hi Gary > > is the location for your training CFB Borden? > > Jim Ebsary From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 25 11:27:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Mon Aug 25 10:27:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Glass Sink/Float specific gravity standards References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> Message-ID: <000701c36b2d$ff5b26d0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Don and others, Promised that when these surfaced, I'd offer them for sale. See www.geocities.com/mainemininghistory/cs Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Mon Aug 25 11:59:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Jim Ebsary) Date: Mon Aug 25 10:59:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip References: <012d01c36b14$e376d680$6601a8c0@moose> Message-ID: <001501c36b32$6d624740$c97405d1@jim> Hi Gary I helped remove a few underground storage tanks there that were used to store jet fuel. The other local CFB airports are to the east in Trenton and Belleville. There are some excellent exhibits of vintage fighter jets on the grounds, as well as a museum of jet memorabilia. Unfortunately, I live a couple of hrs south in Welland. There is, however, a club in Barrie, and I've copied a member there that you could possibly hook up with for some minerals. I believe Kitty from Hawaii sent you a link for Bancroft area. The link 'discover my village' has excellent directions and maps for collecting. This would be your closest and best bet for minerals. Sudbury is a couple of hrs north of CFB Borden. The surrounding area of Barrie, Orillia, Coldwater is good for fossils (trilobites and cephalopods) etc if you can get access to a quarry. We make a trip to the Coldwater quarry at least once a year now, especially for the trilobites and cephalopods. If you could tell me when you're coming up, I could look around to see if there's anything interesting planned in the area field trip-wise. I think that there's a rockhounding get together this long weekend in Bancroft. If you like, we can talk offlist, so we're not disturbing the others. Have fun Gary The Niagara Peninsula Geological Society Jim Ebsary npgs_info@sympatico.ca www.iaw.on.ca/~jime ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Brown To: Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 10:26 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip > Indeed it is! You wouldn't happen to be nearby, would you? > > Regards, > GcB > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jim Ebsary > > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 6:42 PM > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sudbury Trip > > > > > > Hi Gary > > > > is the location for your training CFB Borden? > > > > Jim Ebsary > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 26 07:30:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Tue Aug 26 06:30:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] What about these sink-float thingies? References: <001001c365bb$69087ec0$dac5c950@maxdata> <001a01c365be$b1d8e880$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> <3F414B3C.23E2E1EC@att.net> <000701c36b2d$ff5b26d0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> Message-ID: <002901c36bd6$1b3e58b0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> There may be some questions about the mystery communication about sink-float standards. "What?" - might be a common one. There are liquids that are so dense that you could float all but the densest of minerals. Imagine a ruby or a tourmaline gemstone "floating". Without going into the details which I found were fairly available on the net, you could get one of the very dense liquids and use it to measure the specific gravity (read density) of a mineral and you could use that information to help identify the mineral or even indirectly calculate the eroding power of a stream pushing the particles along. You know the starting density of the liquid and you add some solvent to reduce the density of the liquid until the mineral is neutrally buoyant. You can use the standard glass blocks to establish the range of density of the sample. Of course, there are several ways to directly measure the density of the liquid to get an exact masure, but those methods are fairly tedious. Curt Segeler who used heavy liquids to help identify micromount sized minerals would use minerals which have a very small variation in density to almost constant density to supplement his standard set. I had a question offlist about the liquids themselves and I've included a reply for thought. The discussion could be much longer than provided, but I think the general idea is useful. To answer your question about the liquids themselves. It is my understanding that bromoform through repeated exposure can cause kidney damage. However, hazard is related to exposure. While the risk may be high, the hazard may be low. Manufacturers should provide Material Data Safety sheets and they should include data on hazards due to exposure. The net is also a resource. The most practical application of heavy liquids would be for sedimentologists or gemologists. The former requiring speed in separation and the latter requiring safety for the product. A demonstration of heavy liquids with separation of mixed mineral particles would be effective for students. An entire sample might float in concentrated heavy liquid and separate into component minerals as a diluent was added. A separatory funnel with a clear plastic tube resistant to the liquid could be used to recover each fraction and the washed and dried sample could be used in the lab by the students to determine the source rock area's main components. Putting olivine and quartz together could make them think of the hypothetical source area. There are several recovery methods for bringing the heavy liquid back to high density. In any case, adequate hand protection, avoidance of direct contact, and a fume hood, even if it were home-made of Saranwrap, cardboard, and a fan, would make the demonstration a safe one. Incidentally, if you make a suspension of clay in water and let it settle, the physics are not dominated by density of the mineral but by the characteristics of the clay particle surface and its interaction with other clay particles and the water itself. Otherwise, the entire clay sample would sink to the bottom immediately after you stopped shaking it up. Van From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Tue Aug 26 23:48:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (sunstone3) Date: Tue Aug 26 22:48:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Could use your help! References: <008301c366c4$6c683e20$e0b3950c@mel> Message-ID: <000201c36c60$24ec1de0$bb294b43@feldsparflash> To the List: I am getting way behind in the list's communications, comments. Last e-mail received was from Margaret Malm August 21. Since then I only receive e-mails already deleted, sometimes in triplicate. My Outlook Express is busy trying to receive 178 e-mails with no success. I have Norton Antivirus 2003. Hoping one of my fellow rockhounds has an answer! Carolyn Reynard From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 27 09:54:10 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Aug 27 08:54:10 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Could use your help! References: <008301c366c4$6c683e20$e0b3950c@mel> <000201c36c60$24ec1de0$bb294b43@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <006f01c36cb3$7c65d4a0$ac9d77d5@pandora.be> I think you may have the brand new "SOBIG" virus.... When did you last update your Norton AV definitions? Also: DO NOT set the NAV scanner to "quick scan". You need to scan computer, all disks (including removables like digital camera or memorysticks) in depth and ALL files. Succes, Carolyn Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "sunstone3" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 5:50 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Could use your help! > To the List: > I am getting way behind in the list's communications, comments. > Last e-mail received was from Margaret Malm August 21. > > Since then I only receive e-mails already deleted, sometimes in triplicate. > My Outlook Express is busy trying to receive 178 e-mails with no success. > I have Norton Antivirus 2003. Hoping one of my fellow rockhounds has an > answer! > Carolyn Reynard > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Wed Aug 27 13:03:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Wed Aug 27 12:03:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Phooenix area Message-ID: <3F4D01B7.5865@rcn.com> Hello I am looking for someone in the Phoneniz, AZ area who is a member of a mineral/rock club in that area. A club member, who was docent at the Smithsonian Institution for years, recently moved from Washington DC and is interested in joining a club - she is at the moment without a car. Hope someone can help. thankzzzzz GeorgiaO From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 28 10:29:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Thu Aug 28 09:29:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Could use your help! References: <008301c366c4$6c683e20$e0b3950c@mel> <000201c36c60$24ec1de0$bb294b43@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <002101c36d80$815cf420$d5305841@powertech.net> You might try checking with your ISP. Margaret kadok@infowest.com, in Utah's colorful Dixie ----- Original Message ----- From: "sunstone3" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 9:50 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Could use your help! > To the List: > I am getting way behind in the list's communications, comments. > Last e-mail received was from Margaret Malm August 21. > > Since then I only receive e-mails already deleted, sometimes in triplicate. > My Outlook Express is busy trying to receive 178 e-mails with no success. > I have Norton Antivirus 2003. Hoping one of my fellow rockhounds has an > answer! > Carolyn Reynard > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 28 22:43:03 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Aug 28 21:43:03 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go Message-ID: <2A45AB3C-D9DB-11D7-91A8-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> I'm sure everyone else is doing this too, but I've received no messages for two days, so just checking to see if my message will get through. Of course it could be you will all get this and I won't, so I'll still be out of the loop. Happy hunting, Lanny From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Thu Aug 28 22:55:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Thu Aug 28 21:55:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go Message-ID: <1df.f221764.2c80367e@aol.com> In a message dated 8/28/03 9:45:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lanny@mineralnews.com writes: Of course it could be you will all get this and I won't, so I'll still be out of the loop. Happy hunting, Mine made it through the viruses, worms, Trojan horses, spam, and other assorted oddities that inhabit the InterMess. I suspect some people have been to busy deleting virus laden bounce messages to think about rocks or writing. Grant --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 06:43:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Keith Q. Hayes) Date: Fri Aug 29 05:43:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] [AD] high pressure water guns Message-ID: <015001c36e29$4a9689c0$7811bc42@bay.chartermi.net> Need a high pressure water gun to clean your minerals after a long = summer of collecting? We've got a new site dedicated to bringing you = water guns at the lowest prices available - $120 or less! http://kqwaterguns.printersbest.com Regards, Keith Q. Hayes KQ's Minerals kqhayes@chartermi.net www.kqminerals.com 803 Fifth Street Bay City, MI 48708-5945 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 08:05:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Aug 29 07:05:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go References: <2A45AB3C-D9DB-11D7-91A8-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> Message-ID: <003101c36e36$a273e720$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> Hi Lanny I'm sorry to inform you that I didn't get your message and that I am a notorious prankster... If you get my reply, please ignore it. If you don't get it: please let me know. I still have a bunch of new mineral acquisitions to enter in my collection-database but I don't seem to find enough free time to do it. Despite my efforts to keep my PC clean, a virus managed to slip through and infected 129 files... Riched20.dll was the first to go. That belongs to Word so, no problem there. I also lost a file named LOAD.EXE that is located in the C:\windows\system directory. Does anyone know which program it belongs to? (I get a start-up message that the file is missing but other than that there are only few anomalies in my PC's performance... Some programs say they have not enough memory to load a file while I have 384 Mb of RAM). Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny" To: Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 6:42 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go > I'm sure everyone else is doing this too, but I've received no messages > for two days, so just checking to see if my message will get through. > Of course it could be you will all get this and I won't, so I'll still > be out of the loop. > > Happy hunting, > > Lanny > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 11:17:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Joe Mulvey) Date: Fri Aug 29 10:17:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] re: Phooenix area Message-ID: <20030829171639.16858.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> > I am looking for someone in the Phoneniz, AZ area who is > a member of a mineral/rock club in that area. > thankzzzzz > GeorgiaO Found these on the web, hope it helps! Joe Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum Foundation P. O. Box 41834 Mesa, Arizona 85274 www.azminfun.com/index.html President: Ray Grant, 3262 W. Monterey St., Chandler, AZ 85226 480-814-9086 Secretary: Harvey Jong, 1777 N. Central Dr., Chandler, AZ 85224, 480-899-1342 Meeting Place: Arizona Mining & Mineral Museum, 1502 W. Washington, Phoenix, AZ 85007 Day of Month: 2nd Thursday every other month at 7:00 p.m. except June-August Club Activities: Gem show, support the museum Phoenix Maricopa Lapidary Society, Inc. P. O. Box 36683 Phoenix, Arizona 85067-6683 President: Pedro Chavez, 7363 W. Crystal Rd., Glendale, AZ 85308, 623-8251512 Secretary: Lynn Penkalski, 501 Lavitt Lane, Phoenix, Arizona 85086, 623-465-0871 Meeting Place: Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, 1502 West Washington, Phoenix, AZ Day of Month: 1st Monday 7:00 p.m., if 1st Mon. is a holiday, meeting is 2nd Mon. Except March Club Specialties: gem show, lapidary, field trips Phoenix Mineralogical Society of Arizona 3530 W. Morton, Phoenix, AZ 85051 www.azminerals.com/ President: Gilbert Flores, 3530 W. Morton, Phoenix, AZ 85051, 602-686-7268 Secretary: Cecilia Flores, 3816 W. Vista Ave., Phoenix, AZ 85051, 602-8910316 Meeting Place: Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, 1502 W. Washington, Phoenix, AZ, 85007 Day of Month: 2nd Friday, 7:00 p.m., except 3rd Friday in Feb., do not meet July and August Club Specialties: Gem show, mineralogy, geology, lapidary, paleontology. Juniors welcome ===== Joe Mulvey Nashua, NH -- USA http://home.comcast.net/~mgag1 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 13:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Aug 29 12:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go In-Reply-To: <003101c36e36$a273e720$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> References: <2A45AB3C-D9DB-11D7-91A8-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030829092830.023c9d60@mail.aloha.net> At 04:05 AM 8/29/2003, you wrote: >Hi Lanny > >I'm sorry to inform you that I didn't get your message and that I am a >notorious prankster... >If you get my reply, please ignore it. If you don't get it: please let me >know. ...Axel Axel, The other day I saw a teenage girl wearing a T-shirt that read: "I've gone off to find myself. If you see me, please let me know." Aloha, Kitty --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 21:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Lanny) Date: Fri Aug 29 20:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go In-Reply-To: <003101c36e36$a273e720$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <87E49961-DA9B-11D7-91A8-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> Hi Axel and John, I didn't get your messages either so this is not a reply to them, I'm just guessing that you two would respond... Thanks, just like that it is working again. Went through all my settings, checked everything and now it all seems to work. Must be like an old troublesome TV set, hit it on the side and it starts working. It's good to know the list is still out there and members are too. Thanks, Lanny On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 07:05 AM, Axel Emmermann wrote: > Hi Lanny > > I'm sorry to inform you that I didn't get your message and that I am a > notorious prankster... > If you get my reply, please ignore it. If you don't get it: please let > me > know. > ... From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 22:20:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Aug 29 21:20:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go References: <2A45AB3C-D9DB-11D7-91A8-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> <003101c36e36$a273e720$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <3F502619.67C4@Tomaszewski.net> Load.exe in windows\system is the hidden copy of the nimda.a virus that gets loaded on boot by a setting in system.ini. If it is missing your cleanup efforts have been at least partially successful. Get a copy of the McAfee Stinger Utility (you should be able to download it) as it can do wonders in cleaning an infected machine. And remember, there are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who do not. Kreigh Axel Emmermann wrote: > > Hi Lanny > > I'm sorry to inform you that I didn't get your message and that I am a > notorious prankster... > If you get my reply, please ignore it. If you don't get it: please let me > know. > > I still have a bunch of new mineral acquisitions to enter in my > collection-database but I don't seem to find enough free time to do it. > Despite my efforts to keep my PC clean, a virus managed to slip through and > infected 129 files... > Riched20.dll was the first to go. That belongs to Word so, no problem there. > I also lost a file named LOAD.EXE that is located in the C:\windows\system > directory. Does anyone know which program it belongs to? (I get a start-up > message that the file is missing but other than that there are only few > anomalies in my PC's performance... Some programs say they have not enough > memory to load a file while I have 384 Mb of RAM). > > Axel Emmermann > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > B-2640 Mortsel > Belgium > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > E-mail: > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > Visit our homepage: > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > Bezoek onze web-site: > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > My own web-site: > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lanny" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 6:42 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go > > > I'm sure everyone else is doing this too, but I've received no messages > > for two days, so just checking to see if my message will get through. > > Of course it could be you will all get this and I won't, so I'll still > > be out of the loop. > > > > Happy hunting, > > > > Lanny > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Fri Aug 29 22:37:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Fri Aug 29 21:37:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go In-Reply-To: <3F502619.67C4@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: > And remember, there are 10 types of people in the world, those who > understand binary and those who do not. Groan. a. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 30 04:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 30 03:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go References: Message-ID: <002001c36ee4$0ce2e0e0$04ab77d5@pandora.be> > > And remember, there are 10 types of people in the world, those who > > understand binary and those who do not. Actually, there are 11 types. .... the 11th type being those who also can read hexadecimal like they read the mornin' paper. ROFL Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 30 05:46:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sat Aug 30 04:46:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds digest, Vol 1 #552 - 6 msgs Message-ID: <15f.25101c60.2c81e858@wmconnect.com> In a message dated 8/29/03 8:04:35 PM Central Daylight Time, rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: > Riched20.dll was the first to go. That belongs to Word so, no problem there. > I also lost a file named LOAD.EXE that is located in the C:\windows\system > directory. Does anyone know which program it belongs to? (I get a start-up > message that the file is missing but other than that there are only few > anomalies in my PC's performance... Some programs say they have not enough > memory to load a file while I have 384 Mb of RAM). > Hi: Load.exe was left by the virus. Go to your anti-virus software's website for a complete discussion of causes and removal, by entering "load.exe" in their search engine to get to the article. I hope this helps. I do not write to the list very often, but while I am about it I would like to introduce a new discussion topic. What are your limits on the repair and restoration of mineral specimens? My basic philosophy is there are too many minerals in the world to own to take on one with repairs. What are your limits on cleaning methods? Is acid alright? We have a lot of this discussion at the club meeting and I am just curious what other people from other areas think. Sincerely, Maryanne --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 30 05:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Aug 30 04:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go References: <2A45AB3C-D9DB-11D7-91A8-000393AC22E6@mineralnews.com> <003101c36e36$a273e720$bf9d77d5@pandora.be> <3F502619.67C4@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000701c36eec$e9e5e200$04ab77d5@pandora.be> Kreigh thanks! Found the cu(l)prit(e) .... (some weird attemp to get on topic, sorry for that) Oneliner in system.ini, first line : shell=explorer.exe load.exe -dontrunold Your advise rocks (there, on topic again!) Axel Emmermann Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties Home : Lobbesplein 12 B-2640 Mortsel Belgium Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 E-mail: axel.emmermann@pandora.be Visit our homepage: http://www.minerant.org/index.html Bezoek onze web-site: http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html My own web-site: http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go > Load.exe in windows\system is the hidden copy of the nimda.a virus that > gets loaded on boot by a setting in system.ini. If it is missing your > cleanup efforts have been at least partially successful. > > Get a copy of the McAfee Stinger Utility (you should be able to download > it) as it can do wonders in cleaning an infected machine. > > And remember, there are 10 types of people in the world, those who > understand binary and those who do not. > > Kreigh > > > > > Axel Emmermann wrote: > > > > Hi Lanny > > > > I'm sorry to inform you that I didn't get your message and that I am a > > notorious prankster... > > If you get my reply, please ignore it. If you don't get it: please let me > > know. > > > > I still have a bunch of new mineral acquisitions to enter in my > > collection-database but I don't seem to find enough free time to do it. > > Despite my efforts to keep my PC clean, a virus managed to slip through and > > infected 129 files... > > Riched20.dll was the first to go. That belongs to Word so, no problem there. > > I also lost a file named LOAD.EXE that is located in the C:\windows\system > > directory. Does anyone know which program it belongs to? (I get a start-up > > message that the file is missing but other than that there are only few > > anomalies in my PC's performance... Some programs say they have not enough > > memory to load a file while I have 384 Mb of RAM). > > > > Axel Emmermann > > Mineralogische Kring Antwerpen > > Werkgroepen Fluorescentie & Technische Realisaties > > Home : Lobbesplein 12 > > B-2640 Mortsel > > Belgium > > Tel: +32 (0)3 295.35.54 > > E-mail: > > axel.emmermann@pandora.be > > Visit our homepage: > > http://www.minerant.org/index.html > > Bezoek onze web-site: > > http://www.minerant.org/MKA/index.html > > My own web-site: > > http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/index.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lanny" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 6:42 AM > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go > > > > > I'm sure everyone else is doing this too, but I've received no messages > > > for two days, so just checking to see if my message will get through. > > > Of course it could be you will all get this and I won't, so I'll still > > > be out of the loop. > > > > > > Happy hunting, > > > > > > Lanny > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 30 10:52:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Gary Brown) Date: Sat Aug 30 09:52:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go In-Reply-To: <000701c36eec$e9e5e200$04ab77d5@pandora.be> Message-ID: <002e01c36f16$6064ac80$6601a8c0@moose> Oh, heck, since we are off topic: Get RegClnr.exe. It will let you manage your startup programs, clean your registry of drek, and shrink your... Ooops, sorry, wrong ointment. My geek-kid turned me on to the program and it's now in my standard toolkit. Download at: http://www.pcmedixwebs.com/regclean.htm Gary Brown Catspaw Minerals http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk PS. Not to Self: Do NOT stay up to midnight programming. Do NOT skip dinner even if you are on a roll. Gaaaccccckkkk...my HEAD HURTS! > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-admin@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Axel > Emmermann > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 6:51 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Where'd the list go > > > Kreigh > > thanks! Found the cu(l)prit(e) .... (some weird attemp to get > on topic, sorry for that) Oneliner in system.ini, first line > : shell=explorer.exe load.exe -dontrunold > > Your advise rocks (there, on topic again!) From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 30 12:28:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Van) Date: Sat Aug 30 11:28:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Limits? References: <15f.25101c60.2c81e858@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: <000b01c36f24$552ca1c0$c3ff4342@nathanqa8gl7gx> I always had the philosophy that it was OK to clean a mineral as long as it wasn't from MY research area. Of course, I do mean a harsh cleaning procedure other than soap and water or scrapping some flecks away - or maybe chiseling some calcite or dissolving the calcite or unwanted mineral. But I'm a purist mate, except for maybe some of the rust or the lichens, or ?. Van ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:45 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds digest, Vol 1 #552 - 6 msgs > In a message dated 8/29/03 8:04:35 PM Central Daylight Time, > rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: > > > > Riched20.dll was the first to go. That belongs to Word so, no problem there. > > I also lost a file named LOAD.EXE that is located in the C:\windows\system > > directory. Does anyone know which program it belongs to? (I get a start-up > > message that the file is missing but other than that there are only few > > anomalies in my PC's performance... Some programs say they have not enough > > memory to load a file while I have 384 Mb of RAM). > > > > Hi: Load.exe was left by the virus. Go to your anti-virus software's > website for a complete discussion of causes and removal, by entering "load.exe" in > their search engine to get to the article. I hope this helps. > > I do not write to the list very often, but while I am about it I would like > to introduce a new discussion topic. What are your limits on the repair and > restoration of mineral specimens? My basic philosophy is there are too many > minerals in the world to own to take on one with repairs. What are your limits > on cleaning methods? Is acid alright? We have a lot of this discussion at the > club meeting and I am just curious what other people from other areas think. > Sincerely, > Maryanne > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sat Aug 30 19:45:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Keith Q. Hayes) Date: Sat Aug 30 18:45:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Back after a long time... Message-ID: <001601c36f60$0e474080$7811bc42@bay.chartermi.net> Well, it seems like it has been forever but I thought I would see what = the rockhounds list is up to these days. By way of introduction, I've = been a collector/dealer now for about 12 years. I am interested in = fluorites, tourmalines, gem crystals, colorful specimens, coppers and = silvers. I was just looking around my apartment today and realized that = I now have thousands of specimens. Wow... I had none 12 years ago. Anyway, I am always interested in hearing about new locales, cleaning = techniques, and other specimen information.=20 Have a nice day, Keith Q. Hayes KQ's Minerals kqhayes@chartermi.net www.kqminerals.com 803 Fifth Street Bay City, MI 48708-5945 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 08:52:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Sun Aug 31 07:52:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Message-ID: Computer Viruses, -Bugs, -Worms, missing E-mail, losing files, anti Virus software, downloading Patches, installing Fixes................. I do not have to concern myself with any of that. ................get an Apple Computer and forget about all this stuff ! Hilmar Krocke From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 10:40:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Sun Aug 31 09:40:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: very well said ;-) km On Sunday, August 31, 2003, at 07:48 AM, Hilmar Krocke wrote: > get an Apple Computer and forget about all this stuff ! Never ask a man what computer he uses. If it's a Mac, he'll tell you. If it's not, why embarrass him? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 11:08:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Cliff Jackson) Date: Sun Aug 31 10:08:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip report Mohawk Mine, CA Message-ID: <001101c36fe2$562d5790$4bf1b141@Jackson> Had a nice trip to the Mohawk mine in the California Mojave Desert. = This is about 65 miles south of Las Vegas, NV on I-15. You get off at = the Cima exit and head North until you get to the power lines. Turn = right and go about 5 mile and take the first right south. As you round = the corner of the hill you can see the old mines dumps. This road if = very badly weathered and requires 4X4 high clearance to get there. = There are several dumps at the mine. This time I spent my time on the = northern most set. Found the following minerals. Some nice but small = samples of Azurite, some very nice Malachite (Botryoidal form) and some = Sphalerite. The Sphalerite has both the iron form and possible some of = the red form. I'm not sure yet if the red crystals are Sphalerite or = Cuprite. It was a little hot but had a good time. I have heard that = there are rattle snakes in the area but did not see any, did get to see = some of the wild donkeys that are in the area. On the way back to Las = Vegas I went through Sandy Valley and on to Goodsprings/Jean. At the = top of the pass going out of Sandy Valley there are several old mine = dumps. I stopped at a couple. Just before the pass there is a road off = to the south at the first dump I found some crystals dark gray to black = with a very metallic luster. The id of this will have to wait until I = have had some time to research. All in all a very good trip. =20 Regards Cliff Jackson --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 11:11:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Sun Aug 31 10:11:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] References: Message-ID: <001501c36fe2$bfaa31c0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> I've worked as a legal hacker for a few years and believe me, the fact that you don't worry doesn't mean you're safe... there are many security problems with Apple, also since their OS is simply *BSD and any BSD variant has it's security problems and therefore updates and patches if you don't run them, well ... then be embarrased see Apple security updates ;-) http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=120239 http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003May/bma20030516020028.htm ok, they are much less than MS and Linux boxes and Apple has virus concerns too... http://www.sophos.com/support/faqs/savmac.html and you have to backup your files on an Apple too... to be short, every OS has it's problems; the problem is the human that forgets to install patches ;-) we have to patch our Linux servers in our company almost daily, the same as our Microsoft servers... cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris W. Murray" To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] > very well said > ;-) > km > On Sunday, August 31, 2003, at 07:48 AM, Hilmar Krocke wrote: > > > get an Apple Computer and forget about all this stuff ! > Never ask a man what computer he uses. If it's a Mac, he'll tell you. > If it's not, why embarrass him? > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 11:29:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kris W. Murray) Date: Sun Aug 31 10:29:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] In-Reply-To: <001501c36fe2$bfaa31c0$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> Message-ID: <7B10FB29-DBD8-11D7-9627-000393B396CA@mac.com> a hacker wants to do damage to a lot doing very little and therefore by convention has no desire to hit apple's OS because it is a paltry 4% of the computer base in he world, IME NO OS is 100% virus free but i have only ever seen macs pass (but not get infected by, ie A Symptomatic) Micro$haft viruses or 2) get infected with a microsoft word macro virus, and that was in the mid-90s. one thing for certain - i definitely got to laugh at the most recent round of viri/worms on the internet cuz even if someone could hack my mac, this work could noT!! KM <-- who is going to get some opal or sand dollars today (probably sand dollars because it involves beer and water, whereas opal involves beer and desert) On Sunday, August 31, 2003, at 10:10 AM, frank de wit wrote: > I've worked as a legal hacker for a few years > and believe me, the fact that you don't worry doesn't mean you're > safe... > there are many security problems with Apple, also since their OS is > simply > *BSD How many Bill Gates does it take to change a lightbulb? Only 1. He just holds the bulb and lets the world revolve around him. From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 12:06:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (frank de wit) Date: Sun Aug 31 11:06:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] References: <7B10FB29-DBD8-11D7-9627-000393B396CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <002b01c36fea$771c0020$8d7ba8c0@cm333814lt> yawn... blah blah blah just read my email and comment with only facts please... go to http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/vendor/ and choose vendor: Apple from the list you will see about 60 security 'holes' in Apple products in 2003 (desktop market share 1,43%) if you choose vendor: 'Linux' from the list you will see about 70 security 'holes' in 2003 (desktop market share 0,26%) if you choose vendor: Microsoft from the list you will see about 160 security 'holes' in 2003 (desktop market share 97,46%) you may build your own opinion on the figures&facts above... (server market shares are different, but close to zero for Apple, Unix/Linux towards 60%, Microsoft towards 40%) so, every OS has it's own security problems; it's a hackers/IT-auditors job to see them and fix them (that's what a legal hacker does...) but let's stop here please, i've seen tons of email flame wars in linux versus apple versus microsoft the last years and they bore me to death it seems very difficult for people to talk about facts only... let's talk about minerals ONLY on this list please Cheers! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kris W. Murray" To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] > a hacker wants to do damage to a lot doing very little and therefore by > convention has no desire to hit apple's OS because it is a paltry 4% of > the computer base in he world, IME From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 13:38:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Aug 31 12:38:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip report Mohawk Mine, CA In-Reply-To: <001101c36fe2$562d5790$4bf1b141@Jackson> Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030831123655.01d01c30@mail.spiritone.com> Rattlers hate the heat too. Go back at dawn and you'll find a couple I am sure :) At 10:07 AM 8/31/2003, you wrote: Had a nice trip to the Mohawk mine in the California Mojave Desert. This is about 65 miles south of Las Vegas, NV on I-15. You get off at the Cima exit and head North until you get to the power lines. Turn right and go about 5 mile and take the first right south. As you round the corner of the hill you can see the old mines dumps. This road if very badly weathered and requires 4X4 high clearance to get there. There are several dumps at the mine. This time I spent my time on the northern most set. Found the following minerals. Some nice but small samples of Azurite, some very nice Malachite (Botryoidal form) and some Sphalerite. The Sphalerite has both the iron form and possible some of the red form. I'm not sure yet if the red crystals are Sphalerite or Cuprite. It was a little hot but had a good time. I have heard that there are rattle snakes in the area but did not see any, did get to see some of the wild donkeys that are in the area. On the way back to Las Vegas I went through Sandy Valley and on to Goodsprings/Jean. At the top of the pass going out of Sandy Valley there are several old mine dumps. I stopped at a couple. Just before the pass there is a road off to the south at the first dump I found some crystals dark gray to black with a very metallic luster. The id of this will have to wait until I have had some time to research.  All in all a very good trip.   Regards Cliff Jackson --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 13:38:27 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Aug 31 12:38:27 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip report Mohawk Mine, CA Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.2.20030831123737.01cf2ce8@mail.spiritone.com> Rattlers hate the heat too. Go back at dawn and you'll find a couple I am sure :) At 10:07 AM 8/31/2003, you wrote: >Had a nice trip to the Mohawk mine in the California Mojave Desert. This >is about 65 miles south of Las Vegas, NV on I-15. You get off at the Cima >exit and head North until you get to the power lines. Turn right and go >about 5 mile and take the first right south. As you round the corner of >the hill you can see the old mines dumps. This road if very badly >weathered and requires 4X4 high clearance to get there. There are several >dumps at the mine. This time I spent my time on the northern most >set. Found the following minerals. Some nice but small samples of >Azurite, some very nice Malachite (Botryoidal form) and some >Sphalerite. The Sphalerite has both the iron form and possible some of >the red form. I'm not sure yet if the red crystals are Sphalerite or >Cuprite. It was a little hot but had a good time. I have heard that >there are rattle snakes in the area but did not see any, did get to see >some of the wild donkeys that are in the area. On the way back to Las >Vegas I went through Sandy Valley and on to Goodsprings/Jean. At the top >of the pass going out of Sandy Valley there are several old mine dumps. I >stopped at a couple. Just before the pass there is a road off to the >south at the first dump I found some crystals dark gray to black with a >very metallic luster. The id of this will have to wait until I have had >some time to research. All in all a very good trip. > > > >Regards > >Cliff Jackson > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 16:13:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sun Aug 31 15:13:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sample Boxes Message-ID: <004f01c36ffb$eda39120$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Hi folks, Can anyone steer me to an on-line supplier of sample boxes? White paper = with lid, about 2"x2"x1" or so, with or w/o cotton batting. Thanks! John Santa, Idaho --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 16:39:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 31 15:39:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sample Boxes Message-ID: <19b.19c987cf.2c83d2fb@aol.com> Try the Mineral & Fossil Supply Co. Their web address is: http://www.rockboxes.com Dan Weinrich P.O. Box 425 Grover, MO 63040 314-341-1811 http://www.danweinrich.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 17:22:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Siebel) Date: Sun Aug 31 16:22:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sample Boxes References: <19b.19c987cf.2c83d2fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c37005$97986440$3b00a8c0@mshome.net> Thanks Dan! That's exactly what I'm seeking. Nice site (yours) by the way. John Santa, Idaho ----- Original Message ----- From: > Try the Mineral & Fossil Supply Co. Their web address is: > > http://www.rockboxes.com > > Dan Weinrich > P.O. Box 425 > Grover, MO 63040 > 314-341-1811 > http://www.danweinrich.com From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 19:22:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Cliff Jackson) Date: Sun Aug 31 18:22:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip report Mohawk Mine, CA References: <6.0.0.14.2.20030831123655.01d01c30@mail.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <001d01c37027$4db8d4a0$1229bf3f@Jackson> Tim I know that rattlers do not like the high heat but it was meant as a heads up. You can disturber one turn over rocks that they are under. Cliff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Fisher" To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Trip report Mohawk Mine, CA Rattlers hate the heat too. Go back at dawn and you'll find a couple I am sure :) At 10:07 AM 8/31/2003, you wrote: Had a nice trip to the Mohawk mine in the California Mojave Desert. This is about 65 miles south of Las Vegas, NV on I-15. You get off at the Cima exit and head North until you get to the power lines. Turn right and go about 5 mile and take the first right south. As you round the corner of the hill you can see the old mines dumps. This road if very badly weathered and requires 4X4 high clearance to get there. There are several dumps at the mine. This time I spent my time on the northern most set. Found the following minerals. Some nice but small samples of Azurite, some very nice Malachite (Botryoidal form) and some Sphalerite. The Sphalerite has both the iron form and possible some of the red form. I'm not sure yet if the red crystals are Sphalerite or Cuprite. It was a little hot but had a good time. I have heard that there are rattle snakes in the area but did not see any, did get to see some of the wild donkeys that are in the area. On the way back to Las Vegas I went through Sandy Valley and on to Goodsprings/Jean. At the top of the pass going out of Sandy Valley there are several old mine dumps. I stopped at a couple. Just before the pass there is a road off to the south at the first dump I found some crystals dark gray to black with a very metallic luster. The id of this will have to wait until I have had some time to research.  All in all a very good trip.   Regards Cliff Jackson --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 19:58:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Aug 31 18:58:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Clening methods and repairs References: <15f.25101c60.2c81e858@wmconnect.com> Message-ID: <3F52A7BB.8A6@Tomaszewski.net> As a general rule I prefer to clean specimens with water and a toothbrush so that there is minimal damage to the specimen and its scientific value. I removes dirt without impacting (most) mineral coatings. Any repairs would be done with mineral tac so it is both obvious and reversable. But that is my personal preference and fits the character of my collection best. But some people collect for aesthetics and a mineral coating on a specimen would be a good candidate for removal with acid. Repairs may be done invisibly with super glue. A crystal may be etched out if its matrix. If your goal is a perfect and unblemished crystal, drastic preparation may be appropriate even if the opportunity for future science is lost in the process. My complaints would come when a specimen has had drastic preparation and it is not disclosed. Sydoniaaida@wmconnect.com wrote: > I do not write to the list very often, but while I am about it I would like > to introduce a new discussion topic. What are your limits on the repair and > restoration of mineral specimens? My basic philosophy is there are too many > minerals in the world to own to take on one with repairs. What are your limits > on cleaning methods? Is acid alright? We have a lot of this discussion at the > club meeting and I am just curious what other people from other areas think. > Sincerely, > Maryanne From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 20:47:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 31 19:47:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Clening methods and repairs Message-ID: <115.282d9052.2c840ce3@aol.com> In a message dated 8/31/03 9:58:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes: > As a general rule I prefer to clean specimens with water and a > toothbrush so that there is minimal damage to the specimen and its > scientific value. I removes dirt without impacting (most) mineral > coatings. That is a fine approach, but not until you have inspected the specimen with a loupe to be sure the toothbrush will not be damaging any delicate crystallization on the surface. Many beautiful minerals occur in fine acicular crystals which could be removed completely by such brushing. Ultrasonic is better in those cases. Even water can be problematical (though usually less so than acids), since many halides, borates, and sulfates are water soluble. No single approach will be right for all situations. You just have to know something about the area where you are collecting, what minerals you may find there, and what types of cleaning are safe for them. Ed DeWindt-Robson Winston-Salem, NC --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 21:38:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Aug 31 20:38:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Clening methods and repairs References: <115.282d9052.2c840ce3@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F52BF20.62A0@Tomaszewski.net> Thanks for an important reminder Ed. I assumed the obvious step of checking out what you have before cleaning it. I should know better than to make assumptions. BTW, Another cleaning solution is to use compressed air. EDewindtro@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/31/03 9:58:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Kreigh@Tomaszewski.net writes: > > > As a general rule I prefer to clean specimens with water and a > > toothbrush so that there is minimal damage to the specimen and its > > scientific value. I removes dirt without impacting (most) mineral > > coatings. > > That is a fine approach, but not until you have inspected the specimen with a > loupe to be sure the toothbrush will not be damaging any delicate > crystallization on the surface. Many beautiful minerals occur in fine acicular crystals > which could be removed completely by such brushing. Ultrasonic is better in > those cases. > > Even water can be problematical (though usually less so than acids), since > many halides, borates, and sulfates are water soluble. > > No single approach will be right for all situations. You just have to know > something about the area where you are collecting, what minerals you may find > there, and what types of cleaning are safe for them. > > Ed DeWindt-Robson > Winston-Salem, NC From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 21:39:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Teague) Date: Sun Aug 31 20:39:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Plastic specimen box question Message-ID: <3F52BFB8.22CAC21@icx.net> Can anyone give me a source for clear, square plastic specimen boxes, approx. 1 1/16 inches (28mm) and approx. 3/4 of an inch deep. They have a foam insert with a white material covering the top of the foam. I need the white, not the black covered ones. They usually are packaged 48 to a "sheet" of foam that will fit a standard size jeweler's tray. These are often used for cut stones or small meteorite specimens. I have been getting them from The Caprock but they are out of the white ones and do not know when they will be resupplied. Thanks, in advance! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 21:50:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Keith Q. Hayes) Date: Sun Aug 31 20:50:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Clening methods and repairs References: <15f.25101c60.2c81e858@wmconnect.com> <3F52A7BB.8A6@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <003d01c3703a$85deefa0$7811bc42@bay.chartermi.net> It's really important to think about what you are trying to clean before you start the acid work. all acids are not created equal and some are much harsher on various associated minerals. In addition, higher concentrations of acids tend to much worse. I think I have seem more examples of horribly disfigured "clean minerals" at the road sides in the Houghton Michigan area than anywhere else. A lot of the copper pickers tend to throw everything in full strength muriatic acid and sort it out later. So much for the nice patina, hello to that unnatural bright look. Then, there's the guys that enjoy using wire brushes to clean their copper. And of course, full strength muriatic tends to be rather harsh on silver unlike acetic acid or some of the other milder acids. Regards, Keith Q. Hayes KQ's Minerals kqhayes@chartermi.net www.kqminerals.com 803 Fifth Street Bay City, MI 48708-5945 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 10:00 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Clening methods and repairs > As a general rule I prefer to clean specimens with water and a > toothbrush so that there is minimal damage to the specimen and its > scientific value. I removes dirt without impacting (most) mineral > coatings. Any repairs would be done with mineral tac so it is both > obvious and reversable. But that is my personal preference and fits the > character of my collection best. > > But some people collect for aesthetics and a mineral coating on a > specimen would be a good candidate for removal with acid. Repairs may be > done invisibly with super glue. A crystal may be etched out if its > matrix. If your goal is a perfect and unblemished crystal, drastic > preparation may be appropriate even if the opportunity for future > science is lost in the process. > > My complaints would come when a specimen has had drastic preparation and > it is not disclosed. > > > Sydoniaaida@wmconnect.com wrote: > > I do not write to the list very often, but while I am about it I would like > > to introduce a new discussion topic. What are your limits on the repair and > > restoration of mineral specimens? My basic philosophy is there are too many > > minerals in the world to own to take on one with repairs. What are your limits > > on cleaning methods? Is acid alright? We have a lot of this discussion at the > > club meeting and I am just curious what other people from other areas think. > > Sincerely, > > Maryanne > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 21:54:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) Date: Sun Aug 31 20:54:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: was boxes Message-ID: <1d6.10039714.2c841cb1@aol.com> Cool website Dan! > http://www.danweinrich.com > Susy McMahan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 22:02:00 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (TA Masters) Date: Sun Aug 31 21:02:00 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] References: Message-ID: <3F52C4E8.3070006@cox.net> Hilmar, I third that! Love my Mac. Teresa From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 22:10:01 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (Keith Q. Hayes) Date: Sun Aug 31 21:10:01 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Plastic specimen box question References: <3F52BFB8.22CAC21@icx.net> Message-ID: <004801c3703d$62f141c0$7811bc42@bay.chartermi.net> www.fetpak.com Keith Q. Hayes KQ's Minerals kqhayes@chartermi.net www.kqminerals.com 803 Fifth Street Bay City, MI 48708-5945 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Teague" To: ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:40 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Plastic specimen box question > Can anyone give me a source for clear, square plastic specimen > boxes, approx. 1 1/16 inches (28mm) and approx. 3/4 of an > inch deep. They have a foam insert with a white material > covering the top of the foam. I need the white, not the black > covered ones. They usually are packaged 48 to a "sheet" of > foam that will fit a standard size jeweler's tray. These are often > used for cut stones or small meteorite specimens. > > I have been getting them from The Caprock but they are out of > the white ones and do not know when they will be resupplied. > > Thanks, in advance! > > John Teague > Volunteer Gems > Knoxville, Tennessee > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > From rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sun Aug 31 22:30:02 2003 From: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com (John Teague) Date: Sun Aug 31 21:30:02 2003 Subject: [Rockhounds] Plastic specimen box question References: <3F52BFB8.22CAC21@icx.net> <004801c3703d$62f141c0$7811bc42@bay.chartermi.net> Message-ID: <3F52CC48.6EC9AC4@icx.net> Fetpak has the round ones but don't seem to have the square ones that I need! Anyone else? Thanks, Keith, for trying! john "Keith Q. Hayes" wrote: > www.fetpak.com > Keith Q. Hayes > KQ's Minerals > kqhayes@chartermi.net > www.kqminerals.com > 803 Fifth Street > Bay City, MI 48708-5945 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Teague" > To: ; ; > ; ; > ; > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 11:40 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Plastic specimen box question > > > Can anyone give me a source for clear, square plastic specimen > > boxes, approx. 1 1/16 inches (28mm) and approx. 3/4 of an > > inch deep. They have a foam insert with a white material > > covering the top of the foam. I need the white, not the black > > covered ones. They usually are packaged 48 to a "sheet" of > > foam that will fit a standard size jeweler's tray. These are often > > used for cut stones or small meteorite specimens. > > > > I have been getting them from The Caprock but they are out of > > the white ones and do not know when they will be resupplied. > > > > Thanks, in advance! > > > > John Teague > > Volunteer Gems > > Knoxville, Tennessee > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > WWW: http://www.drizzle.com/~afox/rockhounds > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds