From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Wed Mar 1 07:52:09 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Wed Mar 1 07:52:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] class on minerals In-Reply-To: <007801c63ce3$80b55cd0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <5E3F83B6-A749-11DA-A0ED-000A95773806@mindspring.com> <007801c63ce3$80b55cd0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <4405C329.8060207@tenforward.com> Hi Alan, Thanks for your links too, lots of good info here. All the very best, John Alan Goldstein wrote: > I've looked at some web sites and found that those geared for upper > elementary to middle school better meet the needs for a continuing > education class than those of college level. From experience I know > that most people curious about minerals and collecting could care less > about Miller indices and atomic bonding. Of course, I find that most > adult ed students are "kid's at heart" anyway. Once the outline is > developed, I will be happy to share it. > > A couple of useful web sites for my class (so far) include: > http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/programs/strongchemistry/ > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vwlessons/minerals.html > > http://www.sdnhm.org/kids/minerals/howto-form.html > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol J. Bova" > To: "Alan Goldstein" > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 11:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] class on minerals > > >> Hi Alan, >> Since you're only going to have about four classroom sessions with >> one or two collecting trips, maybe you could start with an >> introductory overview, and then focus the next sessions based on what >> is available on the trips. That way the hands-on would anchor the >> class input. >> >> If you google on introduction to minerals and crystals you can get >> sites like this: >> http://www.gpc.edu/~pgore/geology/geo101/mineral.htm >> http://www.visionlearning.com/library/module_viewer.php?mid=119&l=&c3= >> http://www.smv.org/prog/xtaldsc.htm >> >> syllabus, intro to minerals gets a nice listing of sites... like: >> www.emporia.edu/earthsci/amber/go336/syllabus.htm this page has a >> good selection of links that may be useful as well. >> >> Please let us know how it turns out. >> Carol >> >> >> On Sunday, February 26, 2006, at 08:18 PM, Alan Goldstein wrote: >> >>> Hello! >>> >>> I am developing an adult education class on minerals and crystals to >>> be offered this fall. It will be science-based, no holistic stuff. I >>> intend to make it as non-technical as possible. Since this group has >>> members who have probably offered classes like this before, I am >>> looking for samples of a syllabus or course outline on which to >>> model my program. Fossil or general programs are easy, and while I >>> don't have a problem writing about minerals, I could use a little >>> help to plan the class content. I anticipate having one evening >>> class per week for about a month, with one or two collecting trips. >>> It will be offered through the local university. You can e-mail >>> directly or through the group. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Alan >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > From pjmodreski at att.net Wed Mar 1 09:11:13 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Wed Mar 1 09:11:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] class on minerals Message-ID: <030120061711.26238.4405D5B1000740820000667E216046664807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Alan, Re. your mineral class, I don't remember if I've seen you in person where you might have picked up some of these from me, but I have several handout info sheets that I have prepared at the USGS, and that I pass out at mineral shows and school classroom visits. These include, "Minerals", "What is Quartz?", "What is Feldspar", "Fluorescent Minerals", Common Rocks and Minerals", and "Rocks of the U.S.". If these are of any use to you (or to anyone else on the Rockhounds list), I'll be happy to send you copies. All are one page except the last which is 2 pages. They are really keyed to adult level rather than for kids, hence, they are more something that an adult can refer to in teaching younger kids. All are "public domain" and anyone is welcome to copy them as much as they want and use them as they wish. I hand these out at our USGS booths at the Denver, Tucson, and a few other local mineral shows. They are not "anything new" to what you would already have and are basically are a recap of information one can find anywhere, but they are my best shot at putting on one page (or two), a summary of what one would most like to know about these mineral and rock topics. I can attach the copies via email. I have them as MS Word files; a few have some little crystal drawings attached (just to make them look more interesting), which the Word files lack but which I can send as jpeg's (larger files, vs. the small 50 kb or so Word versions). Pete Modreski pjmodreski@att.net or pmodreski@usgs.gov -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" : -------------- > I've looked at some web sites and found that those geared for upper > elementary to middle school better meet the needs for a continuing education > class than those of college level. From experience I know that most people > curious about minerals and collecting could care less about Miller indices > and atomic bonding. Of course, I find that most adult ed students are "kid's > at heart" anyway. Once the outline is developed, I will be happy to share > it. > > A couple of useful web sites for my class (so far) include: > http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/programs/strongchemistry/ > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vwlessons/minerals.html > > http://www.sdnhm.org/kids/minerals/howto-form.html > > Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 1 09:16:06 2006 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Wed Mar 1 09:16:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks Message-ID: <20060301171606.77870.qmail@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I noticed that it must have been sitting a wet metal bucket for sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the rocks. Dawn look off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. Thanks for your help. June --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Mar 1 09:53:16 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Mar 1 09:52:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] class on minerals In-Reply-To: <030120061711.26238.4405D5B1000740820000667E216046664807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <030120061711.26238.4405D5B1000740820000667E216046664807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <4405DF8C.1000305@verizon.net> Hi all, by any chance, did one of you on the list post this question to the Ask-A-Mineralogist board, specifically asking if there were a CD that could be used to learn optics? Don From albalmer at att.net Wed Mar 1 10:03:29 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Mar 1 10:03:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks In-Reply-To: <20060301171606.77870.qmail@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060301171606.77870.qmail@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young wrote: >I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I noticed that it must have been sitting a wet metal bucket for sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the rocks. Dawn look off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. Give us some more information. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Mar 1 10:46:48 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Mar 1 10:47:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks References: <20060301171606.77870.qmail@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000f01c63d60$814e39a0$c193b2d1@TheBlackAdder> A product called Super Iron Out is superior to oxalic acid for removing rust stains. I've tried both, the Iron Out only six months ago on the advice of another rockhound, and it really works well. Contains sodium hydrosulfite, is not an acid, won't damage calcite. Home Depot, Wal-Mart and Lowes stock it. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Balmer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young wrote: >I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I noticed that it must have >been sitting a wet metal bucket for sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the >rocks. Dawn look off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I >tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. Give us some more information. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Wed Mar 1 11:16:18 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Mar 1 11:16:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks In-Reply-To: <000f01c63d60$814e39a0$c193b2d1@TheBlackAdder> References: <20060301171606.77870.qmail@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000f01c63d60$814e39a0$c193b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 10:46:48 -0800, "Erich Kern" wrote: > > >A product called Super Iron Out is superior to oxalic acid for removing rust stains. I've >tried both, the Iron Out only six months ago on the advice of another rockhound, and it >really works well. Contains sodium hydrosulfite, is not an acid, won't damage calcite. >Home Depot, Wal-Mart and Lowes stock it. I wouldn't recommend it (or anything else) without knowing the composition of the rock. > >Erich Kern > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Al Balmer" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > >Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 10:03 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks > > >On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young > wrote: > >>I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I noticed that it must have >>been sitting a wet metal bucket for sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the >>rocks. Dawn look off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I >>tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. > >What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was >already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to >clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. >Give us some more information. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Wed Mar 1 11:35:09 2006 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Wed Mar 1 11:35:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060301193509.31412.qmail@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The label said petrified mud and grass. Al Balmer wrote: On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young wrote: >I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I noticed that it must have been sitting a wet metal bucket for sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the rocks. Dawn look off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. Give us some more information. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jaybates at rcn.com Wed Mar 1 11:59:14 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Wed Mar 1 11:55:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks References: <20060301193509.31412.qmail@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c63d6a$9e2b3fa0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> June, try Super Iron Out on a small sample you are willing to lose, prior to using it on all your rocks. With most such situations, you need to experiment first to see if it works and does not destroy your specimens. ----- Original Message ----- From: "June Young" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:35 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks > The label said petrified mud and grass. > > > Al Balmer wrote: > On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young > wrote: > > >I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I noticed that it must have been sitting a wet metal bucket for sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the rocks. Dawn look off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. > > What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was > already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to > clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. > Give us some more information. > > -- > Al Balmer > Sun City, AZ > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From leaninj at ev1.net Wed Mar 1 12:11:29 2006 From: leaninj at ev1.net (Jimmie Holley) Date: Wed Mar 1 12:12:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] class on minerals References: <030120061711.26238.4405D5B1000740820000667E216046664807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <000c01c63d6c$547d7bf0$55cddacf@jimmiespavilion> Say Pete, I am a older person and would like very much to have all that you avlible. I am new to this as I have just polished my first bach of rocks thank you very much in advance. my e-mail is leaninj@ev1.net my home address is jimmie holley 11222 pandora Houston,Texas 77013 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 11:11 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] class on minerals Alan, Re. your mineral class, I don't remember if I've seen you in person where you might have picked up some of these from me, but I have several handout info sheets that I have prepared at the USGS, and that I pass out at mineral shows and school classroom visits. These include, "Minerals", "What is Quartz?", "What is Feldspar", "Fluorescent Minerals", Common Rocks and Minerals", and "Rocks of the U.S.". If these are of any use to you (or to anyone else on the Rockhounds list), I'll be happy to send you copies. All are one page except the last which is 2 pages. They are really keyed to adult level rather than for kids, hence, they are more something that an adult can refer to in teaching younger kids. All are "public domain" and anyone is welcome to copy them as much as they want and use them as they wish. I hand these out at our USGS booths at the Denver, Tucson, and a few other local mineral shows. They are not "anything new" to what you would already have and are basic! ally are a recap of information one can find anywhere, but they are my best shot at putting on one page (or two), a summary of what one would most like to know about these mineral and rock topics. I can attach the copies via email. I have them as MS Word files; a few have some little crystal drawings attached (just to make them look more interesting), which the Word files lack but which I can send as jpeg's (larger files, vs. the small 50 kb or so Word versions). Pete Modreski pjmodreski@att.net or pmodreski@usgs.gov -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" : -------------- > I've looked at some web sites and found that those geared for upper > elementary to middle school better meet the needs for a continuing > education > class than those of college level. From experience I know that most people > curious about minerals and collecting could care less about Miller indices > and atomic bonding. Of course, I find that most adult ed students are > "kid's > at heart" anyway. Once the outline is developed, I will be happy to share > it. > > A couple of useful web sites for my class (so far) include: > http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/programs/strongchemistry/ > http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vwlessons/minerals.html > > http://www.sdnhm.org/kids/minerals/howto-form.html > > Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Mar 1 16:22:52 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Mar 1 16:22:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] class on minerals References: <030120061711.26238.4405D5B1000740820000667E216046664807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <004101c63d8f$72731480$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Pete, I don't recall whether I've seen those hand-outs, but I'll be happy to have you send them to me. I'm on cable modem, so can handle them at once. Remember to send them directly to me! I've probably got a hand-out on fluorite from one of the museums in the fluorspar district. Just have to dig it out, but since the course is in the fall, I'm not in a rush to look. Has anyone created a "What is calcite?" hand-out? That would be useful. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] class on minerals > Alan, > > Re. your mineral class, I don't remember if I've seen you in person where > you might have picked up some of these from me, but I have several handout > info sheets that I have prepared at the USGS, and that I pass out at > mineral shows and school classroom visits. These include, "Minerals", > "What is Quartz?", "What is Feldspar", "Fluorescent Minerals", Common > Rocks and Minerals", and "Rocks of the U.S.". If these are of any use to > you (or to anyone else on the Rockhounds list), I'll be happy to send you > copies. All are one page except the last which is 2 pages. They are > really keyed to adult level rather than for kids, hence, they are more > something that an adult can refer to in teaching younger kids. All are > "public domain" and anyone is welcome to copy them as much as they want > and use them as they wish. I hand these out at our USGS booths at the > Denver, Tucson, and a few other local mineral shows. They are not > "anything new" to what you would already have and are basic! > ally are a recap of information one can find anywhere, but they are my > best shot at putting on one page (or two), a summary of what one would > most like to know about these mineral and rock topics. > > I can attach the copies via email. I have them as MS Word files; a few > have some little crystal drawings attached (just to make them look more > interesting), which the Word files lack but which I can send as jpeg's > (larger files, vs. the small 50 kb or so Word versions). > > Pete Modreski pjmodreski@att.net or pmodreski@usgs.gov > > -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" > : -------------- > > >> I've looked at some web sites and found that those geared for upper >> elementary to middle school better meet the needs for a continuing >> education >> class than those of college level. From experience I know that most >> people >> curious about minerals and collecting could care less about Miller >> indices >> and atomic bonding. Of course, I find that most adult ed students are >> "kid's >> at heart" anyway. Once the outline is developed, I will be happy to share >> it. >> >> A couple of useful web sites for my class (so far) include: >> http://school.discovery.com/lessonplans/programs/strongchemistry/ >> http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vwlessons/minerals.html >> >> http://www.sdnhm.org/kids/minerals/howto-form.html >> >> Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From teyancey at mail.tca.net Wed Mar 1 17:16:36 2006 From: teyancey at mail.tca.net (Thomas Yancey) Date: Wed Mar 1 17:17:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks In-Reply-To: <20060301193509.31412.qmail@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060301193509.31412.qmail@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: June, Tell us more about this material. The label is totally mystifying and I am consumed with curiosity. Mud will naturally compact and become hard as shale and slate, etc., and metamorphose to phyllite and schist that have a lot of mica in it. It doesn't get replaced with silica (I assume that's what the 'petrified' means) unless it has a lot of volcanic glass or microorganism silica, in which case there is a mineral replacement that occurs that produces a rock without clays (the primary component of mud). I can guess that what you have is a volcanic material replaced with silica -- but that is totally a shear guess. Is it chert? I am burning with curiosity as what 'petrified mud' refers to. I totally mystified about petrified grass. Or does it actually mean glass, as in obsidian? Tom Yancey >The label said petrified mud and grass. > >Al Balmer wrote: > On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young >wrote: > >>I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I >>noticed that it must have been sitting a wet metal bucket for >>sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the rocks. Dawn look >>off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I >>tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. > >What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was >already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to >clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. >Give us some more information. -- Thomas Yancey From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Wed Mar 1 20:20:21 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Wed Mar 1 20:20:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pete's handouts Message-ID: Jeanette and I were fortunate enough to visit Pete at the USGS in Denver last spring. He was able to show us around plus gave us some booklets for our Mobile club's junior members.These were well received as well as very informative and educational. This is top knotch professionally prepared material. I am sure these will be helpful to the adult education classes. It was one of the big highlights of the trip, and our kin there also got in on the tour. We also bought books, posters, and other items at the gift shop there. Thanks again Pete!  Glenn ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Find just what you're after with the new, more precise MSN Search - try it now! ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Thu Mar 2 17:41:33 2006 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Thu Mar 2 17:41:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rust on rocks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060303014133.79109.qmail@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey, you are way over my head. The pices are thin 1/2" to 1" thick and 3-4" long. I just purchsed a digital camera. Let's see if I can get a picture for you to look at. The inside material is darker and hard like agate, the outside covering is light and softer. June Thomas Yancey wrote: June, Tell us more about this material. The label is totally mystifying and I am consumed with curiosity. Mud will naturally compact and become hard as shale and slate, etc., and metamorphose to phyllite and schist that have a lot of mica in it. It doesn't get replaced with silica (I assume that's what the 'petrified' means) unless it has a lot of volcanic glass or microorganism silica, in which case there is a mineral replacement that occurs that produces a rock without clays (the primary component of mud). I can guess that what you have is a volcanic material replaced with silica -- but that is totally a shear guess. Is it chert? I am burning with curiosity as what 'petrified mud' refers to. I totally mystified about petrified grass. Or does it actually mean glass, as in obsidian? Tom Yancey >The label said petrified mud and grass. > >Al Balmer wrote: > On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:16:06 -0800 (PST), June Young >wrote: > >>I purchased rough on and online auction. When I got it home, I >>noticed that it must have been sitting a wet metal bucket for >>sometime as there was a lot of rust on some of the rocks. Dawn look >>off some of it but not all. What could I use to get the rest off? I >>tried some Rust-O-Lium but that did not work. > >What kind of rocks? Chances are the "rust" (if it really is rust) was >already on the rocks, not from a bucket. There are various ways to >clean minerals, depending on what they are and what the stains are. >Give us some more information. -- Thomas Yancey _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dbomke at insightbb.com Thu Mar 2 20:38:47 2006 From: dbomke at insightbb.com (dbomke) Date: Thu Mar 2 20:38:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Northwest Federation References: Message-ID: <008401c63e7c$6003dad0$3aa6d00c@D5K94V21> Frank, Is the offer for free shipping on your new book still available? If it is, let me know and I will drop a check in the mail. Do you have an updated copy of you petrified wood sale list? If so could you please send me a copy. I went over your list when you sent me a copy back in January, but I had a few other distractions at that time and just got around to looking over it recently. I figured I would see if an updated version was available. Thanks Dennis Bomke ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Northwest Federation BTW the theme of our show is petrified wood. Do you have any info on your new book for us? Gene Hartstein Newark, DE *****Here's a sneak preview: ANCIENT FORESTS: A CLOSER LOOK AT FOSSIL WOOD Frank Daniels and geologist Dick Dayvault (Rocks & Minerals editor for 30 years) team up to explore the intricacies of fossil wood by leading the reader on an expedition into the micro world of fossil wood mineralization and cell structures. 1600 color photographs, charts, and diagrams, including 438 fossil wood micro images, 40 Geologic Landscapes ?, and 46 thin section micrographs from modern conifers and hardwoods. Enormous 11.25 by 12.25 inch, 7.29 pound book with 456 pages. 7 years in the making Major chapters address fossil wood structure and identification, the process of wood transformation to stone, fossil woods from the western United States and around the world, and three major museum collections of fossil woods. Order directly from the publisher for $89.95 US. Colorado residents add $2.61 state tax. Shipping and handling FREE for limited time in the United States (a $10 value). Send check or call with Visa/MasterCard information. PayPal to _cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) . Call or email for foreign delivery rates. Since the book will not be ready to ship before mid-March, I will hold checks and not run credit card numbers until I am ready to mail the books. Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, CO 81503-9522 970.242.5255 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From cycadwood at aol.com Thu Mar 2 23:08:36 2006 From: cycadwood at aol.com (cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 2 23:08:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Northwest Federation In-Reply-To: <008401c63e7c$6003dad0$3aa6d00c@D5K94V21> References: <008401c63e7c$6003dad0$3aa6d00c@D5K94V21> Message-ID: <8C80CA86C816AC5-1BF0-AEF8@FWM-D43.sysops.aol.com> Frank, Is the offer for free shipping on your new book still available? If it is, let me know and I will drop a check in the mail. *****Yes, it is. I am in Canada at the moment where we are printing the book. We'll finish later today and I'll have books to send out about March 15. It's looking good! Do you have an updated copy of your petrified wood sale list? If so could you please send me a copy. I went over your list when you sent me a copy back in January, but I had a few other distractions at that time and just got around to looking over it recently. I figured I would see if an updated version was available. *****I'll have to wait until I get home to do that. Thanks, Frank *****Here's a sneak preview: ANCIENT FORESTS: A CLOSER LOOK AT FOSSIL WOOD Frank Daniels and geologist Dick Dayvault (Rocks & Minerals editor for 30 years) team up to explore the intricacies of fossil wood by leading the reader on an expedition into the micro world of fossil wood mineralization and cell structures. 1600 color photographs, charts, and diagrams, including 438 fossil wood micro images, 40 Geologic Landscapes ?, and 46 thin section micrographs from modern conifers and hardwoods. Enormous 11.25 by 12.25 inch, 7.29 pound book with 456 pages. 7 years in the making Major chapters address fossil wood structure and identification, the process of wood transformation to stone, fossil woods from the western United States and around the world, and three major museum collections of fossil woods. Order directly from the publisher for $89.95 US. Colorado residents add $2.61 state tax. Shipping and handling FREE for limited time in the United States (a $10 value). Send check or call with Visa/MasterCard information. PayPal to _cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) . Call or email for foreign delivery rates. Since the book will not be ready to ship before mid-March, I will hold checks and not run credit card numbers until I am ready to mail the books. Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, CO 81503-9522 970.242.5255 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From cycadwood at aol.com Thu Mar 2 23:27:37 2006 From: cycadwood at aol.com (cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 2 23:27:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] sorry In-Reply-To: <8C80CA86C816AC5-1BF0-AEF8@FWM-D43.sysops.aol.com> References: <008401c63e7c$6003dad0$3aa6d00c@D5K94V21> <8C80CA86C816AC5-1BF0-AEF8@FWM-D43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8C80CAB15025FAA-1BF0-AF34@FWM-D43.sysops.aol.com> Sorry. That last message was just supposed to go to Dennis. Frank --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Mar 3 16:03:13 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Mar 3 16:03:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Evolution Message-ID: <000d01c63f1f$08897500$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I am quoted (and misquoted) in the last paragraph of the article in today's NY Times "Escapes" section. The article relates to letting fossil tell the story of evolution. Here is the link where the park and the Falls Fossil Festival is mentioned: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/03/travel/03ahead.html?_r=1&oref=slogin The misquote - swap "New York" for "Louisana." Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sat Mar 4 07:51:15 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sat Mar 4 07:51:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000d01c63f1f$08897500$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000001c63fa3$78c95f40$3c261643@KellyHanson> HI all. I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 inch saw. Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it all back together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs look and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used a slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still there. I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. I do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as some of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any tips on how to fix this problem Thanks Kelly From jaybates at rcn.com Sat Mar 4 08:41:05 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Sat Mar 4 08:37:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000001c63fa3$78c95f40$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <000901c63faa$6ebfeda0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> I would hazard a guess that you need a new saw blade or need to sharpen your saw blade if it is not worn out. To sharpen it run through a fire brick or a piece of broken silicon carbide wheel a few times to clean the diamonds. Too much pressure without cutting probably is the reason the brass nuts were stripped. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Hanson" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:51 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > HI all. > I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 inch saw. > Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it all back > together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs look > and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used a > slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still there. > I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. > I do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as some > of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any tips on > how to fix this problem > Thanks > Kelly > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca Sat Mar 4 08:49:18 2006 From: kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca (Kay Davis) Date: Sat Mar 4 08:49:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000001c63fa3$78c95f40$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <20060304164926.VUUX29052.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@D8YF2G81> Warning I am far from being a saw expert, However to me it sounds like an alignment problem. Maybe the new threads on the brass nuts are off center? Anyways instead of sending a bunch of YAGs I suggest you goto http://www.lapidaryjournal.com/feature/slabsaw.cfm This story has a whole series of tests you can do to determine where the problem lies. Once you have narrowed down you can then attempt to fix the alignment problem. If it is the brass nuts and you can not find new replacement units, I would say goto a Machine shop and have them fabricate new ones out of new stock. They are much more likely to be true and square. If the price is not exorbitant have a spare one made up because most of the price is usually the set up costs rather than the actual material or labor to execute the cuts. Good Luck in the future and please let us know what you do find as I do try to learn from my and others misfortune Kay -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kelly Hanson Sent: March 4, 2006 10:51 AM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem HI all. I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 inch saw. Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it all back together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs look and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used a slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still there. I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. I do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as some of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any tips on how to fix this problem Thanks Kelly _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Mar 4 11:29:26 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Mar 4 11:29:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000001c63fa3$78c95f40$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <4409EA93.1988@Tomaszewski.net> Kelly, The rethreaded nuts may be a trifle big for the worn screw so they can wobble a bit. The screw might be a bit out of alignment with the blade. The blade might need to be sharpened by cutting a brick. Kreigh Kelly Hanson wrote: > > HI all. > I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 inch saw. > Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it all back > together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs look > and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used a > slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still there. > I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. > I do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as some > of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any tips on > how to fix this problem > Thanks > Kelly > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From codeburner at gmail.com Sat Mar 4 12:07:05 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Mar 4 12:14:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <4409EA93.1988@Tomaszewski.net> References: <000001c63fa3$78c95f40$3c261643@KellyHanson> <4409EA93.1988@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: One thing that occured to me was this: did they use the right thread when they re-threaded the nuts. The screw is (just guessing) probably some sort of square thread not standard machine thread. I think you generally have to cut those on a lathe and not use a thread tap. BK On 3/4/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > Kelly, > > The rethreaded nuts may be a trifle big for the worn screw so they can > wobble a bit. > > The screw might be a bit out of alignment with the blade. > > The blade might need to be sharpened by cutting a brick. > > Kreigh > > > > > Kelly Hanson wrote: > > > > HI all. > > I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 inch > saw. > > Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it all > back > > together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs > look > > and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used a > > slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still > there. > > I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. > > I do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as > some > > of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any tips > on > > how to fix this problem > > Thanks > > Kelly > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 4 12:27:30 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sat Mar 4 12:54:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Microminerals from Sauktown Sales Message-ID: <20060304202730.51018.qmail@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In a short while I'll be updating the price list of microminerals In addition to the usual assortment of uncommon species, mostly from European localities, there's a nice selection of minerals from the Fluorite District of Crittenden County, Kentucky. This is right across the Ohio River from Cave in Rock, Illinois. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales www.sauktown.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sat Mar 4 13:43:47 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sat Mar 4 13:40:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000901c63faa$6ebfeda0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: <000001c63fd4$b7f6a890$3c261643@KellyHanson> I am sharpening it now as we speak. Before I did this though I checked and the blade does "wobble" about a 1/16th in one spot. I likely did that to the blade when I striped the brass. I was cutting a 80# petrified rock in half and bound up the whole works. I will keep you up dated Thanks Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 8:41 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem I would hazard a guess that you need a new saw blade or need to sharpen your saw blade if it is not worn out. To sharpen it run through a fire brick or a piece of broken silicon carbide wheel a few times to clean the diamonds. Too much pressure without cutting probably is the reason the brass nuts were stripped. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Hanson" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:51 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > HI all. > I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 > inch saw. > Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it > all back > together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs look > and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used > a slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still there. > I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. I > do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as some > of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any > tips on how to fix this problem Thanks > Kelly > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jaybates at rcn.com Sat Mar 4 14:08:34 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Sat Mar 4 14:04:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000001c63fd4$b7f6a890$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <000501c63fd8$2eda92c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I would not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because they only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw design, ie, it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Hanson" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > I am sharpening it now as we speak. Before I did this though I checked and > the blade does "wobble" about a 1/16th in one spot. I likely did that to the > blade when I striped the brass. I was cutting a 80# petrified rock in half > and bound up the whole works. > I will keep you up dated > Thanks > Kelly > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 8:41 AM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > I would hazard a guess that you need a new saw blade or need to sharpen your > saw blade if it is not worn out. To sharpen it run through a fire brick or a > piece of broken silicon carbide wheel a few times to clean the diamonds. Too > much pressure without cutting probably is the reason the brass nuts were > stripped. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kelly Hanson" > To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" > > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:51 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > > > > HI all. > > I stripped the brass nuts on the screw drive on my 50+ year old 18 > > inch > saw. > > Had a local welding shop build up the brass and re-thread. I put it > > all > back > > together. (the carriage was completely in pieces) and now my cut slabs > look > > and feel like a wash board. ruffles have ridges kind of stuff) I used > > a slower pulley and that helped but the ridges are, just smaller still > there. > > I never had problems before this repair even at higher cut speeds. I > > do not know the make of the saw but it has many of the same looks as > some > > of the Covington saws now for sale and the Highland Park saws. Any > > tips on how to fix this problem Thanks > > Kelly > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jaybates at rcn.com Sat Mar 4 15:05:12 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Sat Mar 4 15:01:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000001c63fd4$b7f6a890$3c261643@KellyHanson> <000501c63fd8$2eda92c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: <000501c63fe0$182a7e20$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Kelly, you don't always have to cut large rocks with a saw. I make a lot of spheres so I have to deal with large rocks all the time. I recently acquired a 300 pound piece of Idocrase. I do have access to several large saws including a 24 inch saw, but as with the 300 pound piece of Idocrase, I was able to quarter it with a roto-hammer and drill bits and split it with feathers and wedges. If you are sawing a large rocks in two, check the alignment before you begin sawing. Make sure you have a good sharp blade that is not nearly worn out. Keep a sharp eye on the progress of the sawing and a sharp ear for any changes in sound coming from the saw. If something changes, stop the saw and see if the blade is binding up by grabbing the blade and trying to move it by hand. It should move fairly freely in the kerf. The blade should also be getting plenty of oil. Use oil, not water in large saws. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jaybates" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch > it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I would > not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round > and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because they > only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops off > before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of alignment the > blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw design, ie, > it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive mechanism > will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, and strip > something in the screw drive mechanism. > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From john at MLCE.net Sat Mar 4 19:15:30 2006 From: john at MLCE.net (john) Date: Sat Mar 4 19:13:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000501c63fd8$2eda92c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> References: <000001c63fd4$b7f6a890$3c261643@KellyHanson> <000501c63fd8$2eda92c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch >it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I would >not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round >and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because they >only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops off >before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of alignment the >blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw design, ie, >it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive mechanism >will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, and strip >something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty fine. John Dach --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sat Mar 4 19:19:55 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sat Mar 4 19:16:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000501c63fe0$182a7e20$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: <000001c64003$ad254be0$3c261643@KellyHanson> I do use a very high quality of oil for this saw. Great tips for busting up a large rock for the saw. I will keep those in mind when I am shopping or digging material. A member of our rock club found a saw shop 30 minutes from here who can fix the bent saw I created by not knowing what I was doing. Thanks for the great advice. This "chat" site is the best thing I have found for our rock hounding aside from the local club we joined. I am saving all your great tips and I appreciate them more than you can know. Thanks again Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 3:05 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem Kelly, you don't always have to cut large rocks with a saw. I make a lot of spheres so I have to deal with large rocks all the time. I recently acquired a 300 pound piece of Idocrase. I do have access to several large saws including a 24 inch saw, but as with the 300 pound piece of Idocrase, I was able to quarter it with a roto-hammer and drill bits and split it with feathers and wedges. If you are sawing a large rocks in two, check the alignment before you begin sawing. Make sure you have a good sharp blade that is not nearly worn out. Keep a sharp eye on the progress of the sawing and a sharp ear for any changes in sound coming from the saw. If something changes, stop the saw and see if the blade is binding up by grabbing the blade and trying to move it by hand. It should move fairly freely in the kerf. The blade should also be getting plenty of oil. Use oil, not water in large saws. ----- Original Message ----- From: "jaybates" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch > it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I would > not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round > and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it > because they > only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops > off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of > alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on > the saw design, ie, > it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive > mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, > and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sat Mar 4 19:25:20 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sat Mar 4 19:22:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c64004$6f23ecb0$3c261643@KellyHanson> My saw has one motor that drives the blade and the screw with belts. The lesson I have learned is "watch the saw" every moment when I am doing anything unusual with it. I plan to install a auto shut off on this saw!!! Thanks for the reply Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of john Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:16 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to >watch it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk >tsk. I would not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the >blade out of round and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because >they only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab >pops off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of >alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on >the saw design, ie, it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the >screw drive mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend >the blade, and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty fine. John Dach --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Cycadwood at aol.com Sat Mar 4 20:56:51 2006 From: Cycadwood at aol.com (Cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Sat Mar 4 20:56:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Northwest Federation Message-ID: <27c.692d375.313bc993@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/2006 9:38:56 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, dbomke@insightbb.com writes: Do you have an updated copy of you petrified wood sale list? If so could you please send me a copy. I went over your list when you sent me a copy back in January, but I had a few other distractions at that time and just got around to looking over it recently. I figured I would see if an updated version was available. ****Here you go. Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html application/octet-stream --- From dianne379 at optonline.net Sun Mar 5 08:19:59 2006 From: dianne379 at optonline.net (dianne379@optonline.net) Date: Sun Mar 5 08:20:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Club Show Next Weekend Message-ID: The 17th Annual Clifton Gem, Mineral & Jewelry Show sponsored by the The North Jersey Mineralogical Society (an EFMLA Club) will be held on Saturday and Sunday, March 11th and 12th from 10 AM to 5 PM. The show is held at the Pope John Paul II Elementary School located at 775 Valley Road Clifton, NJ, just 220 yard north of the intersection of Route 3 & Route 46. Tickets can be purchased at the door, Adults $4.00, Seniors $3.00 and children are $2.00 (under 12 is free). Bring a copy of this e-mail and receive $1.00 off admissions. Over twenty dealers featuring, gems, minerals, jewelry, wire-wrapping, fossils, crystals, meteorites, NJ & worldwide specimens, fluorescent minerals, spheres, lapidary materials, cutting rough and books. Dianne Rickard, Secretary North Jersey Mineralogical Society From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Sun Mar 5 09:08:41 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Sun Mar 5 09:07:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite Message-ID: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Hi is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. Thanks Michael --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Sun Mar 5 10:21:09 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sun Mar 5 10:21:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite References: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <000c01c64081$949242d0$ee92b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Rock Currier showed us some knock-out-gorgeous prehnite with epidote from Mali and slides of his Mali trip as part of his talk at the Fallbrook Gem & Mineral Society last month. www.fgms.org The pieces he displayed were not for sale, so you'll have to ask him. I've never seen prehnite as beautiful as the specimens Rock showed us. Erich Kern Murrieta, California ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 9:08 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite Hi is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. Thanks Michael --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Sun Mar 5 10:57:45 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Sun Mar 5 10:55:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite References: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <000c01c64081$949242d0$ee92b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <00b901c64086$b050f9d0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> I know...I've seen the Mali material...but it's not the specimen grade stuff I am interested in ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Kern" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" ; "michael" Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > Rock Currier showed us some knock-out-gorgeous prehnite with epidote from > Mali and slides > of his Mali trip as part of his talk at the Fallbrook Gem & Mineral > Society last month. > www.fgms.org The pieces he displayed were not for sale, so you'll have to > ask him. I've > never seen prehnite as beautiful as the specimens Rock showed us. > > Erich Kern > Murrieta, California > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 9:08 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > Hi > > is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information > regarding the > Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking > for is > information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. > > Thanks > > Michael > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From jaybates at rcn.com Sun Mar 5 11:21:18 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Sun Mar 5 11:17:22 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000001c63fd4$b7f6a890$3c261643@KellyHanson><000501c63fd8$2eda92c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: <000901c64089$fb0f02c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Nice idea. I used to have a slip clutch on the screw drive on my Beacon Star 10 inch saw. Unfornunately it wore out and I had to replace it with a straight drive. Many of the older 18 inch saws don't have any such safety devices. If your saw doesn't have such a device you need to be careful to keep an eye on. It also helps to give the rock a yank to see if it come loose before you start up your saw. Better you pull it loose than it coming loose during sawing. If you are sawing large rocks in two, you are going to be pushing your saw to the max, and that is when you really have to watch it. If it is out of alignment or you have a nearly worn out blade, that is when it is likely to bind up and cause problems. I know maybe you shouldn't cut such large rocks. But we all do it don't we. Ifn you are going to do it, and I am as guilty as anyone, you just have to extra careful. ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch > >it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I would > >not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round > >and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because they > >only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops off > >before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of alignment the > >blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw design, ie, > >it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive mechanism > >will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, and strip > >something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: > > > There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the > screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and > turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty > fine. > > John Dach > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Mar 5 15:23:20 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Mar 5 15:19:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite References: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <440B720A.11B3@Tomaszewski.net> Michael, If you go to Google and do a search for "geology of prehnite in Namibia" you will get about 250 hits. Some of them are thesis or research papers that might have the type of information you are looking for. Kreigh michael wrote: > > Hi > > is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. > > Thanks > > Michael > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Sun Mar 5 15:22:40 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (Michael Schmidt) Date: Sun Mar 5 15:24:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite References: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <440B720A.11B3@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <060801c640ab$b2e86dc0$6402a8c0@remains> i tried the same thing with Mali, but nothing but specimens for sale came up. Thanks for that...that solves half my question...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > Michael, > > If you go to Google and do a search for "geology of prehnite in Namibia" > you will get about 250 hits. Some of them are thesis or research papers > that might have the type of information you are looking for. > > Kreigh > > > michael wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information >> regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? >> >> I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am >> looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of >> material, etc. >> >> Thanks >> >> Michael >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Mar 5 16:02:19 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Mar 5 15:58:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite References: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <440B720A.11B3@Tomaszewski.net> <060801c640ab$b2e86dc0$6402a8c0@remains> Message-ID: <440B7B27.7E00@Tomaszewski.net> Michael, Try searching for "geology of Mali". If you can identify the specific formations of interest, searching on them might find you the details you need. Kreigh Michael Schmidt wrote: > > i tried the same thing with Mali, but nothing but specimens for sale came > up. Thanks for that...that solves half my question...... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing > list for rock and gem collectors" > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 4:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > Michael, > > > > If you go to Google and do a search for "geology of prehnite in Namibia" > > you will get about 250 hits. Some of them are thesis or research papers > > that might have the type of information you are looking for. > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > michael wrote: > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information > >> regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > >> > >> I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am > >> looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of > >> material, etc. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >> multipart/alternative > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/html > >> --- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> List Home Page: > >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Ted at crystalgems.com Sun Mar 5 18:39:09 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Sun Mar 5 18:39:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000101c64004$6f23ecb0$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <008c01c640c7$03a06270$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Kelly: I might have missed it in one of the other reply postings, but make sure the threaded rod is dead straight. Whatever happened to strip the nut might've caused the rod to buckle. A very slight bend in the rod would cause the vise to oscillate pressing the cut against alternate sides of the blade giving a ribbed effect. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kelly Hanson Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 10:25 PM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem My saw has one motor that drives the blade and the screw with belts. The lesson I have learned is "watch the saw" every moment when I am doing anything unusual with it. I plan to install a auto shut off on this saw!!! Thanks for the reply Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of john Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:16 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to >watch it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk >tsk. I would not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the >blade out of round and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because >they only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab >pops off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of >alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on >the saw design, ie, it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the >screw drive mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend >the blade, and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty fine. John Dach --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rockcurrier at cs.com Sun Mar 5 18:58:17 2006 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Sun Mar 5 18:40:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite from Mali References: <200603060203.k2623HKq003796@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <003301c640c9$d277d270$6b01a8c0@rock3> Is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? I can give you fairly detailed information on the Prehnite deposite(s) in Mali. What exactly did you want to know? I may be able to help a little with info on prehnite from Namibia but I have never been to the place where they are digging it there. Rock ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 18:03 Subject: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 22, Issue 5 > Send Rockhounds mailing list submissions to > rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > rockhounds-owner@lists.drizzle.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Rockhounds digest..." > > > [Rockhounds-Digest] > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 18 Inch saw problem (john) > 2. RE: 18 Inch saw problem (Kelly Hanson) > 3. RE: 18 Inch saw problem (Kelly Hanson) > 4. Re: Northwest Federation (Cycadwood@aol.com) > 5. Club Show Next Weekend (dianne379@optonline.net) > 6. Prehnite (michael) > 7. Re: Prehnite (Erich Kern) > 8. Re: Prehnite (michael) > 9. Re: 18 Inch saw problem (jaybates) > 10. Re: Prehnite (Kreigh Tomaszewski) > 11. Re: Prehnite (Michael Schmidt) > 12. Re: Prehnite (Kreigh Tomaszewski) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 19:15:30 -0800 > From: john > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch > >it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I would > >not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round > >and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because they > >only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops off > >before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of alignment the > >blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw design, ie, > >it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive mechanism > >will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, and strip > >something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: > > > There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the > screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and > turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty > fine. > > John Dach > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 19:19:55 -0800 > From: "Kelly Hanson" > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors'" > Message-ID: <000001c64003$ad254be0$3c261643@KellyHanson> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" > > I do use a very high quality of oil for this saw. Great tips for busting up > a large rock for the saw. I will keep those in mind when I am shopping or > digging material. A member of our rock club found a saw shop 30 minutes from > here who can fix the bent saw I created by not knowing what I was doing. > Thanks for the great advice. This "chat" site is the best thing I have found > for our rock hounding aside from the local club we joined. I am saving all > your great tips and I appreciate them more than you can know. > Thanks again > Kelly > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 3:05 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > Kelly, you don't always have to cut large rocks with a saw. I make a lot of > spheres so I have to deal with large rocks all the time. I recently acquired > a 300 pound piece of Idocrase. I do have access to several large saws > including a 24 inch saw, but as with the 300 pound piece of Idocrase, I was > able to quarter it with a roto-hammer and drill bits and split it with > feathers and wedges. > > If you are sawing a large rocks in two, check the alignment before you begin > sawing. Make sure you have a good sharp blade that is not nearly worn out. > Keep a sharp eye on the progress of the sawing and a sharp ear for any > changes in sound coming from the saw. If something changes, stop the saw > and see if the blade is binding up by grabbing the blade and trying to move > it by hand. It should move fairly freely in the kerf. The blade should also > be getting plenty of oil. Use oil, not water in large saws. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jaybates" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 2:08 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > > If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to > watch > > it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I > would > > not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of > round > > and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > > > Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it > > because > they > > only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops > > off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of > > alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on > > the saw design, > ie, > > it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive > > mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, > > and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 19:25:20 -0800 > From: "Kelly Hanson" > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors'" > Message-ID: <000101c64004$6f23ecb0$3c261643@KellyHanson> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" > > My saw has one motor that drives the blade and the screw with belts. The > lesson I have learned is "watch the saw" every moment when I am doing > anything unusual with it. I plan to install a auto shut off on this saw!!! > Thanks for the reply > Kelly > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of john > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:16 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to > >watch it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk > >tsk. I would not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the > >blade out of round and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because > >they only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab > >pops off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of > >alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on > >the saw design, ie, it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the > >screw drive mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend > >the blade, and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: > > > There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the > screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and > turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty > fine. > > John Dach > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 23:56:51 EST > From: Cycadwood@aol.com > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Northwest Federation > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Message-ID: <27c.692d375.313bc993@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 3/2/2006 9:38:56 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > dbomke@insightbb.com writes: > > Do you have an updated copy of you petrified wood sale list? If so could > you please send me a copy. I went over your list when you sent me a copy > back in January, but I had a few other distractions at that time and just > got around to looking over it recently. I figured I would see if an updated > version was available. > > > > ****Here you go. > > Frank J. Daniels, Publisher > Western Colorado Publishing Company > 2024 Freedom Court > Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ > (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ > (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) > 970.242.5255 > cell 970.216.9641 > Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and > Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil > Wood. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > application/octet-stream > --- > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 11:19:59 -0500 > From: dianne379@optonline.net > Subject: [Rockhounds] Club Show Next Weekend > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The 17th Annual Clifton Gem, Mineral & Jewelry Show sponsored by the The North Jersey Mineralogical Society (an EFMLA Club) will be held on Saturday and Sunday, March 11th and 12th from 10 AM to 5 PM. The show is held at the Pope John Paul II Elementary School located at 775 Valley Road Clifton, NJ, just 220 yard north of the intersection of Route 3 & Route 46. Tickets can be purchased at the door, Adults $4.00, Seniors $3.00 and children are $2.00 (under 12 is free). Bring a copy of this e-mail and receive $1.00 off admissions. > > Over twenty dealers featuring, gems, minerals, jewelry, wire-wrapping, fossils, crystals, meteorites, NJ & worldwide specimens, fluorescent minerals, spheres, lapidary materials, cutting rough and books. > > Dianne Rickard, Secretary > North Jersey Mineralogical Society > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 10:08:41 -0700 > From: michael > Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Message-ID: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi > > is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. > > Thanks > > Michael > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 10:21:09 -0800 > From: "Erich Kern" > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" , "michael" > > Message-ID: <000c01c64081$949242d0$ee92b2d1@TheBlackAdder> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Rock Currier showed us some knock-out-gorgeous prehnite with epidote from Mali and slides > of his Mali trip as part of his talk at the Fallbrook Gem & Mineral Society last month. > www.fgms.org The pieces he displayed were not for sale, so you'll have to ask him. I've > never seen prehnite as beautiful as the specimens Rock showed us. > > Erich Kern > Murrieta, California > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 9:08 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > Hi > > is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the > Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is > information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. > > Thanks > > Michael > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 11:57:45 -0700 > From: michael > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > To: Erich Kern , "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Message-ID: <00b901c64086$b050f9d0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; > reply-type=original > > I know...I've seen the Mali material...but it's not the specimen grade stuff > I am interested in > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erich Kern" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > ; "michael" > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 11:21 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > > > > > > Rock Currier showed us some knock-out-gorgeous prehnite with epidote from > > Mali and slides > > of his Mali trip as part of his talk at the Fallbrook Gem & Mineral > > Society last month. > > www.fgms.org The pieces he displayed were not for sale, so you'll have to > > ask him. I've > > never seen prehnite as beautiful as the specimens Rock showed us. > > > > Erich Kern > > Murrieta, California > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "michael" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 9:08 AM > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > > > > Hi > > > > is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information > > regarding the > > Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > > > I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking > > for is > > information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. > > > > Thanks > > > > Michael > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 11:21:18 -0800 > From: "jaybates" > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: <000901c64089$fb0f02c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" > > Nice idea. I used to have a slip clutch on the screw drive on my Beacon Star > 10 inch saw. Unfornunately it wore out and I had to replace it with a > straight drive. Many of the older 18 inch saws don't have any such safety > devices. If your saw doesn't have such a device you need to be careful to > keep an eye on. > > It also helps to give the rock a yank to see if it come loose before you > start up your saw. Better you pull it loose than it coming loose during > sawing. > > If you are sawing large rocks in two, you are going to be pushing your saw > to the max, and that is when you really have to watch it. If it is out of > alignment or you have a nearly worn out blade, that is when it is likely to > bind up and cause problems. I know maybe you shouldn't cut such large rocks. > But we all do it don't we. Ifn you are going to do it, and I am as guilty as > anyone, you just have to extra careful. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "john" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > > >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to > watch > > >it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. I > would > > >not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of > round > > >and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > > > > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because > they > > >only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab pops > off > > >before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of alignment > the > > >blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw design, > ie, > > >it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive mechanism > > >will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, and strip > > >something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: > > > > > > There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the > > screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and > > turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty > > fine. > > > > John Dach > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 18:23:20 -0500 > From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > To: michael , "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Message-ID: <440B720A.11B3@Tomaszewski.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Michael, > > If you go to Google and do a search for "geology of prehnite in Namibia" > you will get about 250 hits. Some of them are thesis or research papers > that might have the type of information you are looking for. > > Kreigh > > > michael wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > > > I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. > > > > Thanks > > > > Michael > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:22:40 -0700 > From: Michael Schmidt > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > To: Kreigh Tomaszewski , > "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Message-ID: <060801c640ab$b2e86dc0$6402a8c0@remains> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; > reply-type=original > > i tried the same thing with Mali, but nothing but specimens for sale came > up. Thanks for that...that solves half my question...... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing > list for rock and gem collectors" > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 4:23 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > > Michael, > > > > If you go to Google and do a search for "geology of prehnite in Namibia" > > you will get about 250 hits. Some of them are thesis or research papers > > that might have the type of information you are looking for. > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > michael wrote: > >> > >> Hi > >> > >> is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information > >> regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > >> > >> I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am > >> looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of > >> material, etc. > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Michael > >> > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >> multipart/alternative > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/html > >> --- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> List Home Page: > >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 19:02:19 -0500 > From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: <440B7B27.7E00@Tomaszewski.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Michael, > > Try searching for "geology of Mali". If you can identify the specific > formations of interest, searching on them might find you the details you > need. > > Kreigh > > > Michael Schmidt wrote: > > > > i tried the same thing with Mali, but nothing but specimens for sale came > > up. Thanks for that...that solves half my question...... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing > > list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 4:23 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Prehnite > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > If you go to Google and do a search for "geology of prehnite in Namibia" > > > you will get about 250 hits. Some of them are thesis or research papers > > > that might have the type of information you are looking for. > > > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > > michael wrote: > > >> > > >> Hi > > >> > > >> is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information > > >> regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? > > >> > > >> I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am > > >> looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of > > >> material, etc. > > >> > > >> Thanks > > >> > > >> Michael > > >> > > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > >> multipart/alternative > > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > > >> text/html > > >> --- > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > >> Subscription Services: > > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > >> List Home Page: > > >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds mailing list > Rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > End of Rockhounds Digest, Vol 22, Issue 5 > ***************************************** > From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sun Mar 5 19:07:17 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sun Mar 5 19:04:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000901c64089$fb0f02c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: <000101c640cb$1391d160$3c261643@KellyHanson> My friend who helped me put my saw back together added a hold down bar on top in addition to the front to back squeeze system the saw had originally. It works very good to secure the stone from all directions. Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 11:21 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem Nice idea. I used to have a slip clutch on the screw drive on my Beacon Star 10 inch saw. Unfornunately it wore out and I had to replace it with a straight drive. Many of the older 18 inch saws don't have any such safety devices. If your saw doesn't have such a device you need to be careful to keep an eye on. It also helps to give the rock a yank to see if it come loose before you start up your saw. Better you pull it loose than it coming loose during sawing. If you are sawing large rocks in two, you are going to be pushing your saw to the max, and that is when you really have to watch it. If it is out of alignment or you have a nearly worn out blade, that is when it is likely to bind up and cause problems. I know maybe you shouldn't cut such large rocks. But we all do it don't we. Ifn you are going to do it, and I am as guilty as anyone, you just have to extra careful. ----- Original Message ----- From: "john" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to watch > >it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk tsk. > >I would > >not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the blade out of round > >and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > > > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it > >because they > >only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab > >pops off > >before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of > >alignment the > >blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on the saw > >design, ie, > >it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the screw drive > >mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend the blade, > >and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: > > > There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the > screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and turns > off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty fine. > > John Dach > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sun Mar 5 19:09:36 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sun Mar 5 19:06:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <008c01c640c7$03a06270$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <000201c640cb$66b56320$3c261643@KellyHanson> After I get my saw blade straightened out I will check the rail alignment. Thanks for the tip. I hope it is only the saw blade??!!!!! Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Ted Kowalski Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 6:39 PM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem Kelly: I might have missed it in one of the other reply postings, but make sure the threaded rod is dead straight. Whatever happened to strip the nut might've caused the rod to buckle. A very slight bend in the rod would cause the vise to oscillate pressing the cut against alternate sides of the blade giving a ribbed effect. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kelly Hanson Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 10:25 PM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem My saw has one motor that drives the blade and the screw with belts. The lesson I have learned is "watch the saw" every moment when I am doing anything unusual with it. I plan to install a auto shut off on this saw!!! Thanks for the reply Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of john Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2006 7:16 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem >If you are going to cut that large of a rock in your saw, you need to >watch it like a hawk and shut down at the first sign of problems. tsk >tsk. I would not be surprised if you removed the diamonds or made the >blade out of round and that is what is causing your mega-saw marks. > >Many saws are out of alignment and the owner doesn't realize it because >they only cut slabs with it. A sign of out of alignment is when a slab >pops off before it has been cut totally off. If the saw is way out of >alignment the blade will bind up and slip the motor belt. Depending on >the saw design, ie, it has a seperate motor to run the screw drill, the >screw drive mechanism will keep pushing the rock into the blade, bend >the blade, and strip something in the screw drive mechanism. Unless: There is a switch set up on the separate drive motor (driving the screw), so that IF the screw binds, the motor itself rotates and turns off the power. Got it on our 18 incher and it works pretty fine. John Dach --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Mar 5 19:21:09 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Mar 5 19:21:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's Message-ID: <440BAA9E.BBD@Tomaszewski.net> I recently acquired an enhydro Halite specimen. The specimen is thermosealed inside a thick plastic bag, with a label that reads "Permian Age Rock Salt, 225 million years old from the 2,150 ft underground disposal level, Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, East of Carlsbad, New Mexico, US Department of Energy, Carlsbad Area Office, www.wipp.carlsbad.nm.us". I know who actually collected it since it came from trade with a geologist I met from there. I appreciate the need to keep a specimen like this in a thick plastic thermosealed bag. My environment is nothing like where it was collected, and I would like to preserve it as long as possible. My questions have to do with the dynamics of an enhydro in something as soluable as Halite. Gravity could provide a preferred direction for halite crystalization, as salt dissolves from the opposit direction, to maintain the state of the enhydro. Slight temperature variations (diurnal cycle, for example) could cause the enhydro to move (slowly) within the halite crystal as a few molecules effectively move from one edge of the bubble to the opposit, each day it sits in storage, due to varying soluability from temperature changes. Halite is more dense than water, so I assume the bubble will migrate upwards through the Halite. But the preferred deposition could be at the top. Gravity would appear to be the dominent force acting on the stasis of the bubble. I think we can assume up or down for a preferred direction, but magnetic orientation could influence a sideways direction., especially if the specimen got vibrated (padding trucks?); NaCl in water is conductive and possibly could generate a current if moving in a magnetic field. My first question: will the bubble move up or down? I think it reasonable to assume all enhydros would exhibit this behavior, but the rate would be much slower in something less soluable in water than halite, say the amethyst enhydro I can see sitting on a shelf across the room from me. Halite is an extreme example of the phenomena. BTW, this makes me think of the world's longest running physics experiment, Professor Thomas Parnell's Pitch Drop Experiment, that has been running since 1927 at the University of Queensland. http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml My second question: at what kind of rate will the bubble move? Will it be fast enough I should consider turning the specimen over every few years, or are we talking lifetimes to move even one millimeter if left undisturbed? My last question: can anyone point me at relevant literature? Thanks to all for any help you can provide or suggest. Kreigh From pjmodreski at att.net Sun Mar 5 21:08:05 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sun Mar 5 21:08:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's Message-ID: <030620060508.624.440BC3B20003E18900000270216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi Kreigh, Interesting question you have here. And, the "dripping pitch experiment" is very intriguing (how'd you ever find this on the 'net?). P.S., just a comment on your use of the term,"enhydro". The way I think I've always seen this word used, an "enhydro" refers to the specimen, containing a liquid bubble within a solid mineral; it doesn't mean the bubble, but it means the entire specimen. Now, I guess I've never heard of anything other than agate, referred to as an "enhydro"; anything else, people just usually say, "containing fluid inclusions" or something like that. But I suppose there's no reason it can't refer to some other mineral than quartz/chalcedony (?)--I'm just not sure anyone has ever used it that way. I just looked this term up in the AGI Glossary of Geology; all I have handy here at home, is an older version, the 2nd (1980) edition (they are now up to the 5th ed.). Interestingly, it spells it with an "s", enhydros (not meaning plural). It says, Enhydros A hollow nodule or geode of chalcedony containing water, sometimes in large amount. And yes, that's the way I've always seen the term used; it normally means an agate nodule containing water. But back to your question. My off-the-cuff thought for an answer was, that this would be a very slow process; I would think, a "lifetimes" kind of time scale, so that you really don't have anything to worry about. I know that a lot of studies have been done on migration (movement) of fluid inclusions in halite, because of the applications to nuclear waste to be buried in salt beds. I thought I should be able to find some more quantitative data on rate of fluid movement. For one thing, the main factor controlling this movement, is temperature. If there is a temperature gradient across the specimen, liquid droplets will dissolve salt from the hotter side, and slowly migrate in that direction. I believe that gravity and magnetism are not pertinent factors. I found a good summary article online from American Mineralogist, http://www.minsocam.org/msa/collectors_corner/arc/halite.htm (The Fluids in Salt, by Edwin Roedder, Volume 69, pages 413-439, 1984 ) This article does give some quantitative data on rate of droplet movement in halite. The article doesn't seem to display page numbers, but it's about 3/4 through the article, in the section, Migration of inclusions in a thermal gradient, where it says, The blocks were then heated gradually (to avoid decrepitation) to the desired ambient temperature (108-260°C) and a thermal gradient, generally l.5°C/cm, superimposed and maintained for 3-10 days. The samples were then cooled slowly and the inclusion positions remeasured. The rates of movement ranged from 1.2 to 5.4 cm/yr. for cubic inclusions 1 mm on an edge; inclusions 0.1 mm on an edge moved only ~30% as fast. Increase in ambient temperature and/or gradient increased the rate, in approximately direct proportion. The migration rates for inclusions in different parts of a given sample, however, were found to vary by a factor of 3, for as yet unknown reasons. So, he reports 1.2 to 5.4 cm/year, but that, in addition to the thermal gradient specified, is at a temperature of 108-260 C; I would imagine your specimens would hopefully be anywhere near that hot! I would think that near room temperature, the movement rate would be negligible; plus, under normal storage conditions, you'd be unlikely to have much of a temperature gradient. It sounds like, keeping such a specimen next to a hot light bulb in a display cabinet, would be a bad thing to do; but otherwise, I'd think it would not be much of a concern. Pete > I recently acquired an enhydro Halite specimen. The specimen is > thermosealed inside a thick plastic bag, with a label that reads > "Permian Age Rock Salt, 225 million years old from the 2,150 ft > underground disposal level, Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, East of > Carlsbad, New Mexico, US Department of Energy, Carlsbad Area Office, > www.wipp.carlsbad.nm.us". I know who actually collected it since it came > from trade with a geologist I met from there. > > I appreciate the need to keep a specimen like this in a thick plastic > thermosealed bag. My environment is nothing like where it was collected, > and I would like to preserve it as long as possible. > > My questions have to do with the dynamics of an enhydro in something as > soluable as Halite. > > Gravity could provide a preferred direction for halite crystalization, > as salt dissolves from the opposit direction, to maintain the state of > the enhydro. Slight temperature variations (diurnal cycle, for example) > could cause the enhydro to move (slowly) within the halite crystal as a > few molecules effectively move from one edge of the bubble to the > opposit, each day it sits in storage, due to varying soluability from > temperature changes. > > Halite is more dense than water, so I assume the bubble will migrate > upwards through the Halite. But the preferred deposition could be at the > top. Gravity would appear to be the dominent force acting on the stasis > of the bubble. > > I think we can assume up or down for a preferred direction, but magnetic > orientation could influence a sideways direction., especially if the > specimen got vibrated (padding trucks?); NaCl in water is conductive and > possibly could generate a current if moving in a magnetic field. > > My first question: will the bubble move up or down? > > I think it reasonable to assume all enhydros would exhibit this > behavior, but the rate would be much slower in something less soluable > in water than halite, say the amethyst enhydro I can see sitting on a > shelf across the room from me. Halite is an extreme example of the > phenomena. > > BTW, this makes me think of the world's longest running physics > experiment, Professor Thomas Parnell's Pitch Drop Experiment, that has > been running since 1927 at the University of Queensland. > > http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml > > My second question: at what kind of rate will the bubble move? Will it > be fast enough I should consider turning the specimen over every few > years, or are we talking lifetimes to move even one millimeter if left > undisturbed? > > My last question: can anyone point me at relevant literature? > > Thanks to all for any help you can provide or suggest. > > Kreigh > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From smtravis at plateautel.net Mon Mar 6 06:20:10 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Mon Mar 6 06:20:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's References: <030620060508.624.440BC3B20003E18900000270216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <047701c64129$13d2e250$259e5a40@marilyn> I may have miss used the term but I use enhydro to refer to the specimens of permian salt from the WIPP site that are clear and have permian sea water and a buble in them I collect them and give them to big wig visitors at the site. As you have to be a bigwig to get in the site now days uused to be the public could get a tour of the half mile underground site. not since 911. Anyway that is what I call the two phase inclusions in the salt. by the way for all you seakers of ancient life. scientists have cultivated the 250,000,000 year old bacteris in that salt water. Shades of Jurassic or Permian Park. All the best. Keep on Rockin See you in Deming. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 10:08 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's > Hi Kreigh, > > Interesting question you have here. And, the "dripping pitch experiment" > is very intriguing (how'd you ever find this on the 'net?). > > P.S., just a comment on your use of the term,"enhydro". The way I think > I've always seen this word used, an "enhydro" refers to the specimen, > containing a liquid bubble within a solid mineral; it doesn't mean the > bubble, but it means the entire specimen. Now, I guess I've never heard > of anything other than agate, referred to as an "enhydro"; anything else, > people just usually say, "containing fluid inclusions" or something like > that. But I suppose there's no reason it can't refer to some other > mineral than quartz/chalcedony (?)--I'm just not sure anyone has ever used > it that way. > > I just looked this term up in the AGI Glossary of Geology; all I have > handy here at home, is an older version, the 2nd (1980) edition (they are > now up to the 5th ed.). Interestingly, it spells it with an "s", enhydros > (not meaning plural). It says, > > Enhydros A hollow nodule or geode of chalcedony containing water, > sometimes in large amount. > > And yes, that's the way I've always seen the term used; it normally means > an agate nodule containing water. > > But back to your question. My off-the-cuff thought for an answer was, > that this would be a very slow process; I would think, a "lifetimes" kind > of time scale, so that you really don't have anything to worry about. > > I know that a lot of studies have been done on migration (movement) of > fluid inclusions in halite, because of the applications to nuclear waste > to be buried in salt beds. I thought I should be able to find some more > quantitative data on rate of fluid movement. > > For one thing, the main factor controlling this movement, is temperature. > If there is a temperature gradient across the specimen, liquid droplets > will dissolve salt from the hotter side, and slowly migrate in that > direction. I believe that gravity and magnetism are not pertinent > factors. I found a good summary article online from American > Mineralogist, > > http://www.minsocam.org/msa/collectors_corner/arc/halite.htm > (The Fluids in Salt, by Edwin Roedder, Volume 69, pages 413-439, 1984 ) > > This article does give some quantitative data on rate of droplet movement > in halite. The article doesn't seem to display page numbers, but it's > about 3/4 through the article, in the section, Migration of inclusions in > a thermal gradient, where it says, > > > The blocks were then heated gradually (to avoid decrepitation) to the > desired ambient temperature (108-260?C) and a thermal gradient, generally > l.5?C/cm, superimposed and maintained for 3-10 days. The samples were then > cooled slowly and the inclusion positions remeasured. The rates of > movement ranged from 1.2 to 5.4 cm/yr. for cubic inclusions 1 mm on an > edge; inclusions 0.1 mm on an edge moved only ~30% as fast. Increase in > ambient temperature and/or gradient increased the rate, in approximately > direct proportion. The migration rates for inclusions in different parts > of a given sample, however, were found to vary by a factor of 3, for as > yet unknown reasons. > > > So, he reports 1.2 to 5.4 cm/year, but that, in addition to the thermal > gradient specified, is at a temperature of 108-260 C; I would imagine your > specimens would hopefully be anywhere near that hot! I would think that > near room temperature, the movement rate would be negligible; plus, under > normal storage conditions, you'd be unlikely to have much of a temperature > gradient. > > It sounds like, keeping such a specimen next to a hot light bulb in a > display cabinet, would be a bad thing to do; but otherwise, I'd think it > would not be much of a concern. > > Pete > >> I recently acquired an enhydro Halite specimen. The specimen is >> thermosealed inside a thick plastic bag, with a label that reads >> "Permian Age Rock Salt, 225 million years old from the 2,150 ft >> underground disposal level, Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, East of >> Carlsbad, New Mexico, US Department of Energy, Carlsbad Area Office, >> www.wipp.carlsbad.nm.us". I know who actually collected it since it came >> from trade with a geologist I met from there. >> >> I appreciate the need to keep a specimen like this in a thick plastic >> thermosealed bag. My environment is nothing like where it was collected, >> and I would like to preserve it as long as possible. >> >> My questions have to do with the dynamics of an enhydro in something as >> soluable as Halite. >> >> Gravity could provide a preferred direction for halite crystalization, >> as salt dissolves from the opposit direction, to maintain the state of >> the enhydro. Slight temperature variations (diurnal cycle, for example) >> could cause the enhydro to move (slowly) within the halite crystal as a >> few molecules effectively move from one edge of the bubble to the >> opposit, each day it sits in storage, due to varying soluability from >> temperature changes. >> >> Halite is more dense than water, so I assume the bubble will migrate >> upwards through the Halite. But the preferred deposition could be at the >> top. Gravity would appear to be the dominent force acting on the stasis >> of the bubble. >> >> I think we can assume up or down for a preferred direction, but magnetic >> orientation could influence a sideways direction., especially if the >> specimen got vibrated (padding trucks?); NaCl in water is conductive and >> possibly could generate a current if moving in a magnetic field. >> >> My first question: will the bubble move up or down? >> >> I think it reasonable to assume all enhydros would exhibit this >> behavior, but the rate would be much slower in something less soluable >> in water than halite, say the amethyst enhydro I can see sitting on a >> shelf across the room from me. Halite is an extreme example of the >> phenomena. >> >> BTW, this makes me think of the world's longest running physics >> experiment, Professor Thomas Parnell's Pitch Drop Experiment, that has >> been running since 1927 at the University of Queensland. >> >> http://www.physics.uq.edu.au/pitchdrop/pitchdrop.shtml >> >> My second question: at what kind of rate will the bubble move? Will it >> be fast enough I should consider turning the specimen over every few >> years, or are we talking lifetimes to move even one millimeter if left >> undisturbed? >> >> My last question: can anyone point me at relevant literature? >> >> Thanks to all for any help you can provide or suggest. >> >> Kreigh >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Mon Mar 6 09:53:52 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Mon Mar 6 11:11:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite References: <009f01c64077$751eb370$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <005101c6414e$a90cf110$b04fd0c4@privatehome> Hi there, All I can add to this subject is that the prehnite site is in the Goboboseb Mountains in Northwest Namibia (near the Brandberg). This is also the region where these beautiful quartz crystals (some with "enhydro's") are being mined.I was in this area last year in early September. Regards, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Prehnite Hi is there anyone on the list that can give me fairly detailed information regarding the Prehnite deposits in Mali and Namibia? I am not looking at information on available specimens...what I am looking for is information on the size of the formation, volumes of material, etc. Thanks Michael --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From agate at cox.net Mon Mar 6 15:20:19 2006 From: agate at cox.net (agate@cox.net) Date: Mon Mar 6 15:25:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Huge impact crater found in Egypt Message-ID: <20060306232135.MWIY20050.fed1rmmtao06.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]> heck out the following from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4779482.stm Hugh Hammerslag From jaybates at rcn.com Mon Mar 6 17:15:38 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Mon Mar 6 17:11:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000201c640cb$66b56320$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <000901c64184$a5854160$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Can you borrow another saw blade and try it? 1/16 inch wobble is really not much wobble. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Hanson" To: ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 7:09 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > After I get my saw blade straightened out I will check the rail alignment. > Thanks for the tip. I hope it is only the saw blade??!!!!! > Kelly > From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Mar 6 19:50:48 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Mar 6 19:50:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS for the Reward Mine in California Message-ID: <00a001c6419a$52ab60d0$c294b2d1@TheBlackAdder> If anyone can provide GPS coordinates for the main adit of the Reward Mine near Owens Lake in south-east central California they would have my profound gratitude. Lacking the main adit position, anything close would help. I've exhausted all of the Google links for info on the mine. Only two provided any useable info. The best was an article by Walt Margerum on the minerals and history of the Reward mine. Best Regards, Erich Kern Murrieta, CA ************************************************************** It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities" Professor Dumbledore to Harry Potter J.K. Rowling From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Mar 6 20:29:45 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Mar 6 20:26:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's References: <030620060508.624.440BC3B20003E18900000270216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <440D0B5F.2BFF@Tomaszewski.net> Hi Pete, Thank you for the summary of the literature, and the references. It was quite informative. I knew someone had to know the answer from the specimen locality; someone on this List always seems to know the answer. But you raised another question... Now if it is not an 'enhydros', do I call it a buhble, or a water inclusion, or is there another term for water included in something other than quartz/chalcedony? And if no specific term is available for this bubble, maybe we should call it an 'enhydrox', for a bubble hiding in some other kind of rock (pun intended). BTW, I ran across a reference to the "dripping pitch experiment" many years ago looking for something else. Since I knew about pitch from amateur telescope making, I had to track it down. I think it is a truely classic physics experiment. Thanks again for helping me better understand water in Halite. Kreigh pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > > Hi Kreigh, > > Interesting question you have here. And, the "dripping pitch experiment" is very intriguing (how'd you ever find this on the 'net?). > > P.S., just a comment on your use of the term,"enhydro". The way I From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Mon Mar 6 20:35:57 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Mar 6 20:36:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS for the Reward Mine in California In-Reply-To: <00a001c6419a$52ab60d0$c294b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <034c01c641a0$a12a8910$0400a8c0@okapi> Here's the lat/lon for all the mines out of MasMils that are either "Reward" or "Reward *" (as in "wildcard") in California. REWARD AMADOR -120.640278 38.421389 REWARD INYO -118.045833 36.747222 REWARD KERN -119.703333 35.345556 REWARD NEVADA -121.027778 39.253611 REWARD PLUMAS -120.732778 40.063056 REWARD SAN BERNARDINO -116.853333 35.243333 REWARD TUOLUMNE -120.168333 38.015278 REWARD PROSPECT KERN -117.665833 35.538889 REWARD ROAD QUARRY KERN -119.707778 35.321944 GOLDEN REWARD GROUP PLACER -120.549444 39.186667 REWARD MINE SAN BERNARDINO -116.850833 35.2375 Enjoy. (PLUG: MasMils/PLUS $15PPD from Catspaw Minerals! Pop me a note for more info!) GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Erich Kern > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:51 PM > To: Rockhounds > Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS for the Reward Mine in California > > > > If anyone can provide GPS coordinates for the main adit of > the Reward Mine near Owens Lake in south-east central .... From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 6 20:43:25 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 6 20:42:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's In-Reply-To: <440D0B5F.2BFF@Tomaszewski.net> References: <030620060508.624.440BC3B20003E18900000270216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <440D0B5F.2BFF@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <440D0F6D.5060400@verizon.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > But you raised another question... Now if it is not an 'enhydros', do I > call it a buhble, or a water inclusion, or is there another term for > water included in something other than quartz/chalcedony? Sorry to be unglamarous, but as far as I know, it would simply be called a fluid inclusion. Technically speaking, you don't even know it's water. If there would be gas and liquid, it is a two-phase inclusion; if there is water, gas, and liquid, it is a three-phase inclusion. That sounds like a fantastic specimen. Hope this is useful. Don From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 6 21:17:03 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 6 21:17:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's Message-ID: <030720060517.20456.440D174E000209AC00004FE8216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Kreigh, I've been thinking about, and puzzling over, whether the word "bubble" should be used for water.... bubbles, in a mineral. I guess I have to conclude that although we are often inclined to call them that, "bubble" is supposed to refer to either a gas bubble within a liquid, or a bubble that's surrounded by a film of liquid--like a soap bubble. I even looked at the definitions in dictionary.com So for liquid water in a mineral, I guess we're really left with "droplets" (which somehow just doesn't sound right), or, as Don said, "fluid inclusions". Although, for example, when I describe to someone why milky quartz is milky--it's scattering of light from thousands of tiny water droplets included in the quartz--I'm probably as likely to say "bubbles" as I am to say "droplets" or "inclusions". But bubble probably isn't really technically correct. And, I'm sorry, but I don't think your new word is going to get very far! Pete -------------- Original message from Kreigh Tomaszewski : -------------- > Hi Pete, > > Thank you for the summary of the literature, and the references. It was > quite informative. I knew someone had to know the answer from the > specimen locality; someone on this List always seems to know the answer. > > But you raised another question... Now if it is not an 'enhydros', do I > call it a buhble, or a water inclusion, or is there another term for > water included in something other than quartz/chalcedony? > > And if no specific term is available for this bubble, maybe we should > call it an 'enhydrox', for a bubble hiding in some other kind of rock > (pun intended). > > > so I can invent a word? ;-> > > BTW, I ran across a reference to the "dripping pitch experiment" many > years ago looking for something else. Since I knew about pitch from > amateur telescope making, I had to track it down. I think it is a truely > classic physics experiment. > > Thanks again for helping me better understand water in Halite. > > Kreigh > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Mar 6 22:46:33 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Mar 6 22:46:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS for the Reward Mine in California References: <034c01c641a0$a12a8910$0400a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <00c101c641b2$e06d2030$c294b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Holy Smokes!!!!!!!! Many thanks Gary. Off list, please send more info on MasMils. Sounds too good to be only $15. I'll have a look at your web site. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Brown" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] GPS for the Reward Mine in California Here's the lat/lon for all the mines out of MasMils that are either "Reward" or "Reward *" (as in "wildcard") in California. REWARD AMADOR -120.640278 38.421389 REWARD INYO -118.045833 36.747222 REWARD KERN -119.703333 35.345556 REWARD NEVADA -121.027778 39.253611 REWARD PLUMAS -120.732778 40.063056 REWARD SAN BERNARDINO -116.853333 35.243333 REWARD TUOLUMNE -120.168333 38.015278 REWARD PROSPECT KERN -117.665833 35.538889 REWARD ROAD QUARRY KERN -119.707778 35.321944 GOLDEN REWARD GROUP PLACER -120.549444 39.186667 REWARD MINE SAN BERNARDINO -116.850833 35.2375 Enjoy. (PLUG: MasMils/PLUS $15PPD from Catspaw Minerals! Pop me a note for more info!) GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Erich Kern > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:51 PM > To: Rockhounds > Subject: [Rockhounds] GPS for the Reward Mine in California > > > > If anyone can provide GPS coordinates for the main adit of > the Reward Mine near Owens Lake in south-east central .... _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From cabrageo at flexanet.com.br Tue Mar 7 15:40:56 2006 From: cabrageo at flexanet.com.br (Cabrageo) Date: Tue Mar 7 15:41:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] OT -testing Message-ID: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> Off Topic Just testing I haven't received any messages from Rockhounds since one of the Miami-Sao Paulo links went down a month ago Have tried sending this several times so far with no luck On Topic: I may be going to Oz for some training (probably in the Perth area) any recommended guides for possible brief excursions. I likely will be going to the field, but probably won't be able collect while working due to non disclosure etc, but would like to see what's available. Cheers David From albalmer at att.net Tue Mar 7 16:29:03 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Tue Mar 7 16:29:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] OT -testing In-Reply-To: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> References: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> Message-ID: On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 20:40:56 -0300, Cabrageo wrote: >Off Topic >Just testing > >I haven't received any messages from Rockhounds since one of the >Miami-Sao Paulo links went down a month ago Have tried sending this >several times so far with no luck > >On Topic: I may be going to Oz for some training (probably in the Perth >area) any recommended guides for possible brief excursions. I likely >will be going to the field, but probably won't be able collect while >working due to non disclosure etc, but would like to see what's available. > > >Cheers >David Got here, obviously. I'll repeat by email in case you don't see it. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From tam2819 at cox.net Tue Mar 7 19:21:05 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Tue Mar 7 19:21:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: References: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> Message-ID: <1dbe532e80a8863f4949f397e7690ed5@cox.net> I understand a Dealer from Melbourne Australia was detained at Los Angeles Airport for some Tucson related event. Anyone know anything about this? From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Tue Mar 7 19:36:27 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (Michael Schmidt) Date: Tue Mar 7 19:36:07 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> <1dbe532e80a8863f4949f397e7690ed5@cox.net> Message-ID: <079e01c64261$7b8c48d0$6402a8c0@remains> Tom Kapitany, and it was for UNESCO violations. it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com : A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:21 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Question >I understand a Dealer from Melbourne Australia was detained at Los Angeles >Airport for some Tucson related event. Anyone know anything about this? > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tam2819 at cox.net Tue Mar 7 19:48:14 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Tue Mar 7 19:48:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <079e01c64261$7b8c48d0$6402a8c0@remains> References: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> <1dbe532e80a8863f4949f397e7690ed5@cox.net> <079e01c64261$7b8c48d0$6402a8c0@remains> Message-ID: <3aa781ad1b3d24646923102568e217d3@cox.net> Is that Crystal World? What is the UNESCO violation? What has happened to him? Terrie From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Tue Mar 7 20:09:39 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (Michael Schmidt) Date: Tue Mar 7 20:09:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> <1dbe532e80a8863f4949f397e7690ed5@cox.net> <079e01c64261$7b8c48d0$6402a8c0@remains> <3aa781ad1b3d24646923102568e217d3@cox.net> Message-ID: <07aa01c64266$1f095300$6402a8c0@remains> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are all illegal. this is not the first time, and they are making an example out of him i am sure. yes, i think his company is called crystal world ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:48 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > Is that Crystal World? What is the UNESCO violation? What has happened to > him? > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rockhounds at adelphia.net Tue Mar 7 20:34:36 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Tue Mar 7 20:30:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem In-Reply-To: <000901c64184$a5854160$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Message-ID: <000401c64269$9b808bd0$3c261643@KellyHanson> I have not tried that yet but the ripples are very distinct on the slab. I dropped by the shop in Spokane I mentioned and they said right away the saw blade was "cupped". They will try to fix in and I may know by the end of the week. No charge if they can not fix it. Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 5:16 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem Can you borrow another saw blade and try it? 1/16 inch wobble is really not much wobble. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Hanson" To: ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 7:09 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > After I get my saw blade straightened out I will check the rail > alignment. Thanks for the tip. I hope it is only the saw blade??!!!!! > Kelly > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rockhound at btinternet.com Wed Mar 8 10:50:10 2006 From: rockhound at btinternet.com (Neil A) Date: Wed Mar 8 10:50:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <07aa01c64266$1f095300$6402a8c0@remains> Message-ID: I have looked him up on Google. Seems the debate about national gov't ownership of fossils is a big thing worldwide. If chinese fossil export is illegal, how come american paleontological teams get to rape the deserts of china of so many dino fossils, isn't their own patch big enough, or isn't it exotic enough? -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Michael Schmidt Sent: 08 March 2006 04:10 To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are all illegal. this is not the first time, and they are making an example out of him i am sure. yes, i think his company is called crystal world ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:48 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > Is that Crystal World? What is the UNESCO violation? What has happened to > him? > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Wed Mar 8 11:05:18 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Wed Mar 8 11:03:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: Message-ID: <021501c642e3$3da39d20$6802a8c0@heathercomp> because they have the legal permission of, and agreements with, Beijing to do this. Fossils sold by some dealer that have been smuggled out of China are not the same thing. there is a HUGE difference between people like Tom Kapitany and the AMNH. Believe me, Mr. Kapitany is no stranger to trouble with the law.....and from what I have seen firsthand and what I have been told by others who have had business relationships with him, he's living on borrowed time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil A" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Question > > I have looked him up on Google. Seems the debate about national gov't > ownership of fossils is a big thing worldwide. If chinese fossil export is > illegal, how come american paleontological teams get to rape the deserts > of > china of so many dino fossils, isn't their own patch big enough, or isn't > it > exotic enough? > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Michael > Schmidt > Sent: 08 March 2006 04:10 > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > > he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are all illegal. this is > not the first time, and they are making an example out of him i am sure. > > yes, i think his company is called crystal world > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teresa Masters" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:48 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > >> Is that Crystal World? What is the UNESCO violation? What has happened to >> him? >> Terrie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lanny at lrream.com Wed Mar 8 14:00:49 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Wed Mar 8 14:01:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <021501c642e3$3da39d20$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <021501c642e3$3da39d20$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: There isn't always as much difference as we might hope. Check out these stories on the Burke Museum of the University of Washington. The origin and legality of it's 45,000 fossils are being questioned. http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/ display?slug=burke28m&date=20060128 http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0546/051116_news_burke.php If you read any stories and reports of early fossil collecting, museums were just as guilty as individuals of going anywhere they wanted at any time to collect fossils in any country the felt like. Of course you can counter that with the fact that most countries didn't ask for permits in the past. The problem of museums taking what they want has now led to a lot of countries asking for various artwork to be returned from many major museums. It isn't just fossils. Regards, Lanny On Mar 8, 2006, at 11:05 AM, michael wrote: > because they have the legal permission of, and agreements with, > Beijing to do this. Fossils sold by some dealer that have been > smuggled out of China are not the same thing. > > there is a HUGE difference between people like Tom Kapitany and the > AMNH. > > Believe me, Mr. Kapitany is no stranger to trouble with the > law.....and from what I have seen firsthand and what I have been told > by others who have had business relationships with him, he's living on > borrowed time. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil A" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 11:50 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Question > > >> >> I have looked him up on Google. Seems the debate about national gov't >> ownership of fossils is a big thing worldwide. If chinese fossil >> export is >> illegal, how come american paleontological teams get to rape the >> deserts of >> china of so many dino fossils, isn't their own patch big enough, or >> isn't it >> exotic enough? >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Michael >> Schmidt >> Sent: 08 March 2006 04:10 >> To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question >> >> >> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are all illegal. >> this is >> not the first time, and they are making an example out of him i am >> sure. >> >> yes, i think his company is called crystal world >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teresa Masters" >> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >> collectors" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question >> >> >>> Is that Crystal World? What is the UNESCO violation? What has >>> happened to >>> him? >>> Terrie >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From tim at orerockon.com Wed Mar 8 16:53:40 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Mar 8 16:53:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Fossil? Academia snobensis In-Reply-To: References: <021501c642e3$3da39d20$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060308165202.035ce1c8@orerockon.com> http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/02/22/dino.bird.ap/index.html Apparently, even a privately owned museum isn't good enough for these guys. At 02:00 PM 3/8/2006, you wrote: >There isn't always as much difference as we might hope. Check out these >stories on the Burke Museum of the University of Washington. The origin >and legality of it's 45,000 fossils are being questioned. > >http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/ >display?slug=burke28m&date=20060128 > >http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0546/051116_news_burke.php > >If you read any stories and reports of early fossil collecting, museums >were just as guilty as individuals of going anywhere they wanted at any >time to collect fossils in any country the felt like. Of course you can >counter that with the fact that most countries didn't ask for permits >in the past. The problem of museums taking what they want has now led >to a lot of countries asking for various artwork to be returned from >many major museums. It isn't just fossils. > >Regards, > >Lanny Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Wed Mar 8 17:24:22 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Wed Mar 8 17:22:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Fossil? Academia snobensis References: <021501c642e3$3da39d20$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <7.0.0.16.2.20060308165202.035ce1c8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <02d601c64318$324979b0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Padian has been griping about this for weeks now. And his comments about specimens in private museums not being accessible and having no value to science don't hold water. Generally, when type specimens are privately owned, and academics with attitudes like his come by, their rudeness generally guarantees that they won't be given access to it. I know of several specimens (holotypes) in European private collections...personal collections, not museums....and the European scientists seem fully able to get their work done with these specimens without endlessly bitching about the fact that they are privately held or owned. Guys like Padian are themselves "dinosaurs". They are the (hopefully!!) last of a dying breed of researchers who are so incensed by the private ownership of fossils that they will literally deny the existence of important paleontological specimens SIMPLY because they are in private hands. Thank God more and more scientists are learning to work with private collectors. Wanna have some fun? Fossils in museums (state, federal) are technically the property of the taxpayers. As a tax payer the average citizen has the right to see specimens in museum collections. Got to your closest local state or federal museum and ask to see specimens they have in the collection drawers......9 times out of 10 they will deny you your right to see these specimens...and then academics have the gall to gripe about being given access to specimens in private hands. Give me a break Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Fisher" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 5:53 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] New Fossil? Academia snobensis > http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/02/22/dino.bird.ap/index.html > > Apparently, even a privately owned museum isn't good enough for these > guys. > > At 02:00 PM 3/8/2006, you wrote: >>There isn't always as much difference as we might hope. Check out these >>stories on the Burke Museum of the University of Washington. The origin >>and legality of it's 45,000 fossils are being questioned. >> >>http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/ >>display?slug=burke28m&date=20060128 >> >>http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0546/051116_news_burke.php >> >>If you read any stories and reports of early fossil collecting, museums >>were just as guilty as individuals of going anywhere they wanted at any >>time to collect fossils in any country the felt like. Of course you can >>counter that with the fact that most countries didn't ask for permits >>in the past. The problem of museums taking what they want has now led >>to a lot of countries asking for various artwork to be returned from >>many major museums. It isn't just fossils. >> >>Regards, >> >>Lanny > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tam2819 at cox.net Wed Mar 8 18:50:53 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Wed Mar 8 18:50:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a9bb50d906f505b24b4582e099d9195@cox.net> Neil, I understand this man directly accused another Australian dealer in tucson of stealing from his dig. I know he was challenged and had to admit the material did not come from his site. His attempt to discredit the dealer although troublesome, did not work. Why are you using such a strong term as "rape?" I know there are issues regarding academic and/or rockhound type activities. I believe all would be better served in protecting one another from all the fake material being pawned off as real. It seems far more effort is going into reproductions and phony repairs than actually preserving and protecting what is known, and finding what is yet undiscovered. If such a massive crater can all of a sudden be recognized, what else directly underfoot is overlooked? Terrie From kadok at infowest.com Wed Mar 8 19:29:52 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Wed Mar 8 19:29:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] OT -testing In-Reply-To: <440E1A08.1040507@flexanet.com.br> Message-ID: <002701c64329$ba8dc090$0200a8c0@kadok> David -- To the best of my recollection, the Chrysoprase mines are not too far east of the Perth area. Margaret Off Topic Just testing I haven't received any messages from Rockhounds since one of the Miami-Sao Paulo links went down a month ago Have tried sending this several times so far with no luck On Topic: I may be going to Oz for some training (probably in the Perth area) any recommended guides for possible brief excursions. I likely will be going to the field, but probably won't be able collect while working due to non disclosure etc, but would like to see what's available. Cheers David _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com Thu Mar 9 00:31:44 2006 From: minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com (minnesota_pebble_pup) Date: Thu Mar 9 00:32:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <07aa01c64266$1f095300$6402a8c0@remains> Message-ID: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Michael Schmidt wrote: > he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are > all illegal. Michael...Terrie, I have been reading bits of news here and there about fossil collecting. I read the article about the troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites being under federal protection now (and even seen a place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I certainly don't want to pick up something I think is an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the laws appearing continually how will people ever know in the future?) completely baffled, Jonna in Minnesota __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gene at fossilnut.com Thu Mar 9 04:22:10 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Thu Mar 9 04:22:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005401c64374$176414a0$6400a8c0@hppav> Regulations on fossil collecting vary from state to state and nation to nation. Regulations are changing and in addition, both interpretation and enforcement of existing regulations are changing. In the US, if you collect on private land with the owner's permission, the fossil is legally collected. This can be complicated by what defines ownership as in the case with Sue. It can be complicated by defining exactly what permission was granted. For example were you given permission to collect, excavate or just look for. Care must also be taken to ensure that one has not accidentally crossed a boundary during collecting. In some states collecting is allowed along highway rights of way and in others it is illegal. In some cases the illegality is the result of highway safety laws rather than an issue with collecting per se. The laws on US federal land are specific to the type of land (BLM, Forest, Park etc.) and the type of fossil, as well as who is doing the collecting. For instance petrified wood can be collected on BLM land (25 pounds plus one piece for no more than 250 lb. per year) while vertebrates may only be collected with a permit issued to a duly qualified research party. The rules are so complicated that I restrict collecting to areas I know to be legal. Foreign fossils are another matter. Some nations have laws against the export of fossils and may or may not have laws against the collecting and possession. The Argentina law for instance prohibits export of fossils but does not address pine cones that were outside Argentina prior to the ban. Some nations will promote fossil export as a means of providing revenue and income to its citizens, while retaining strict control over vertebrates. Madagascar comes to mind. Check the regulations for your state before you collect. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "minnesota_pebble_pup" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > > --- Michael Schmidt wrote: > >> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are >> all illegal. > > > Michael...Terrie, > I have been reading bits of news here and there about > fossil collecting. I read the article about the > troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites > being under federal protection now (and even seen a > place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's > all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are > rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any > more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I > certainly don't want to pick up something I think is > an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! > (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the > laws appearing continually how will people ever know > in the future?) > completely baffled, > Jonna in Minnesota > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gene at fossilnut.com Thu Mar 9 04:22:15 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Thu Mar 9 04:22:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c64374$1a324fd0$6400a8c0@hppav> Regulations on fossil collecting vary from state to state and nation to nation. Regulations are changing and in addition, both interpretation and enforcement of existing regulations are changing. In the US, if you collect on private land with the owner's permission, the fossil is legally collected. This can be complicated by what defines ownership as in the case with Sue. It can be complicated by defining exactly what permission was granted. For example were you given permission to collect, excavate or just look for. Care must also be taken to ensure that one has not accidentally crossed a boundary during collecting. In some states collecting is allowed along highway rights of way and in others it is illegal. In some cases the illegality is the result of highway safety laws rather than an issue with collecting per se. The laws on US federal land are specific to the type of land (BLM, Forest, Park etc.) and the type of fossil, as well as who is doing the collecting. For instance petrified wood can be collected on BLM land (25 pounds plus one piece for no more than 250 lb. per year) while vertebrates may only be collected with a permit issued to a duly qualified research party. The rules are so complicated that I restrict collecting to areas I know to be legal. Foreign fossils are another matter. Some nations have laws against the export of fossils and may or may not have laws against the collecting and possession. The Argentina law for instance prohibits export of fossils but does not address pine cones that were outside Argentina prior to the ban. Some nations will promote fossil export as a means of providing revenue and income to its citizens, while retaining strict control over vertebrates. Madagascar comes to mind. Check the regulations for your state before you collect. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "minnesota_pebble_pup" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > > --- Michael Schmidt wrote: > >> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are >> all illegal. > > > Michael...Terrie, > I have been reading bits of news here and there about > fossil collecting. I read the article about the > troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites > being under federal protection now (and even seen a > place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's > all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are > rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any > more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I > certainly don't want to pick up something I think is > an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! > (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the > laws appearing continually how will people ever know > in the future?) > completely baffled, > Jonna in Minnesota > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 9 06:17:21 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 9 06:16:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <035801c64384$2e023b00$6802a8c0@heathercomp> without this turning into a 10 page email, here is a quick rundown: In the USA: you cannot collect fossils on government land (BLM land). you can collect on private land with the owner's permission, of course...although sometime people think they own land and they don't. Most countries have export laws concerning fossils. USA doesn;t. Canada does...you need permits. China does- they are all illegal. As are fossils from Argentina. With Moroccan fossils (essentially just vertebrates) you need permits....my last one cost me $500. what does that tell you? You will find that most plaoentologists will not give a rat's butt about the rarest trilobite on the planet, but try to sell a very common albertosaurus tooth, and they will be all over you. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "minnesota_pebble_pup" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > > --- Michael Schmidt wrote: > >> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are >> all illegal. > > > Michael...Terrie, > I have been reading bits of news here and there about > fossil collecting. I read the article about the > troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites > being under federal protection now (and even seen a > place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's > all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are > rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any > more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I > certainly don't want to pick up something I think is > an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! > (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the > laws appearing continually how will people ever know > in the future?) > completely baffled, > Jonna in Minnesota > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tam2819 at cox.net Thu Mar 9 09:17:34 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Thu Mar 9 09:17:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8e88dea622aa9f6bd09f1f39ac10c6c3@cox.net> Jonna, Me personally, I am a long time amateur Rockhound. I personally joined Rock and Mineral Clubs, as well as the California Mineralogical Society. Within that framework, I participated in field trips with knowledgeable leaders. My grandson's were also joyous partners, and subsequently both learned some lapidary. This in total, I found to be a wonderful wholesome activity, and frequently promoted the activity to other families. I have not enjoyed this pleasure in some time now, why? Let me give you only two of many similar episodes. We were at a dig in a recently reopened to digging area. We were given guidelines, where it was OK to drive and park. How much and how material could be collected. Seemed fine to me. I overheard, directly, not hearsay, a couple of the participants say how they would return, drive up to the seam, and use dynamite. Yes I did report that to the trip leader. BTW, BLM was along on that open a new area dig. Next episode was to a long closed and restricted dig area. Once again, the group was collectively and in advanced given the digging conditions. Rigid limits on the amount to be taken were very clear. This area was rather distant, and most participants arrived the day before. One team arrived with a rented U-Haul, for a two bucket limit! They too had plans to serve themselves. In both cases the persons involved were quasi-dealers, and planned to make some money. Collecting at both areas were threatened by the greed of just a couple of self-serving people. This of course gets around, someone gets over indignant and decides it is necessary to "Preserve the land for our Children," and the attention getting rhetoric flows like Niagara Falls. Politicians see an easy way to get their name and face out in front of the voting public, and the ball is on its way. Next, there is a spectacular find by an amateur, ah ha! Amateurs should not have such value, it belongs to the people. So say many Academics, and the beat goes on. Sense and sensibility, oh no not in this arena. Hyena like behavior has its run in the newspapers, and TV. Hysteria reigns, and has its 15 minutes of fame for this go around. Both sides get their knickers up, and mouths open without brain in gear. Another area falls victim, fewer field trips occur, the bellowing ceases for a while, and yes, you can get arrested for innocently pocketing a rock from a hiking trail. Seems they got a girl child on a beach with a shell some time back right here in California. I agree, the old school academia types are a dying breed. Newer academia breeds were teenagers in the Pot era, and far less likely to be stodgy and stuffy. Let's see how that comes about. Most Museums do not have adequate display space, and far more of any collections are out of view. Imagine a few of us approaching our local Museums and asking to see the painting Aunt Mathilda donated. Schedule that into staff time. I do plan on joining some of the Diehard Rockhound Field Trips here, they are almost in my backyard. Perhaps purging the above data will allow me to try again. Terrie From lanny at lrream.com Thu Mar 9 09:31:33 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Mar 9 09:32:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <035801c64384$2e023b00$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <035801c64384$2e023b00$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <491350d765a766b0e7a38d9add1fe59a@lrream.com> I believe that first statement is incorrect. BLM regulations permit the collecting of "common" invertebrate fossils. Spefically, only vertebrate fossils and invertebrate fossils that are of unusual type or scientific vallue are protected. This is the same of National Forest lands too, not just BLM administered lands. Or has the regulations changed in the last year or two? Regards, Lanny On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:17 AM, michael wrote: > without this turning into a 10 page email, here is a quick rundown: > > In the USA: you cannot collect fossils on government land (BLM land). > you can collect on private land with the owner's permission, of > course...although sometime people think they own land and they don't. > > Most countries have export laws concerning fossils. USA doesn;t. > Canada does...you need permits. China does- they are all illegal. As > are fossils from Argentina. With Moroccan fossils (essentially just > vertebrates) you need permits....my last one cost me $500. what does > that tell you? > > You will find that most plaoentologists will not give a rat's butt > about the rarest trilobite on the planet, but try to sell a very > common albertosaurus tooth, and they will be all over you. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- From: "minnesota_pebble_pup" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:31 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > >> >> >> --- Michael Schmidt wrote: >> >>> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are >>> all illegal. >> >> >> Michael...Terrie, >> I have been reading bits of news here and there about >> fossil collecting. I read the article about the >> troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites >> being under federal protection now (and even seen a >> place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's >> all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are >> rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any >> more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I >> certainly don't want to pick up something I think is >> an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! >> (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the >> laws appearing continually how will people ever know >> in the future?) >> completely baffled, >> Jonna in Minnesota >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 9 09:43:20 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 9 09:42:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <035801c64384$2e023b00$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <491350d765a766b0e7a38d9add1fe59a@lrream.com> Message-ID: <03d601c643a0$f4cea6d0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> the problem is, the statement is far too ambiguous....what is a common invertebrate in one area may be very uncommon in another. and who decides what is common and uncommon what you say may be correct...I just find it is a lot esaier to avoid the BLM areas completely......there is no list of what is collectable/what isn't collectable (as far as I know) and is left to the judgement of some government beauracrat who will most likely know nothing about paleontology/ it's not worth the risk of collecting a scaphites ammonite on BLM land and getting nailed for it when you can jump across a fence onto private land where you have permission to collect and collect yourself and ankylosaur skull instead..... It's not worth the trouble Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question >I believe that first statement is incorrect. BLM regulations permit the >collecting of "common" invertebrate fossils. Spefically, only vertebrate >fossils and invertebrate fossils that are of unusual type or scientific >vallue are protected. This is the same of National Forest lands too, not >just BLM administered lands. > > Or has the regulations changed in the last year or two? > > Regards, > > Lanny > > > > On Mar 9, 2006, at 6:17 AM, michael wrote: > >> without this turning into a 10 page email, here is a quick rundown: >> >> In the USA: you cannot collect fossils on government land (BLM land). >> you can collect on private land with the owner's permission, of >> course...although sometime people think they own land and they don't. >> >> Most countries have export laws concerning fossils. USA doesn;t. Canada >> does...you need permits. China does- they are all illegal. As are >> fossils from Argentina. With Moroccan fossils (essentially just >> vertebrates) you need permits....my last one cost me $500. what does >> that tell you? >> >> You will find that most plaoentologists will not give a rat's butt about >> the rarest trilobite on the planet, but try to sell a very common >> albertosaurus tooth, and they will be all over you. >> >> Michael >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "minnesota_pebble_pup" >> >> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:31 AM >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question >> >> >>> >>> >>> --- Michael Schmidt wrote: >>> >>>> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are >>>> all illegal. >>> >>> >>> Michael...Terrie, >>> I have been reading bits of news here and there about >>> fossil collecting. I read the article about the >>> troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites >>> being under federal protection now (and even seen a >>> place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's >>> all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are >>> rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any >>> more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I >>> certainly don't want to pick up something I think is >>> an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! >>> (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the >>> laws appearing continually how will people ever know >>> in the future?) >>> completely baffled, >>> Jonna in Minnesota >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do You Yahoo!? >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Thu Mar 9 08:59:03 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Thu Mar 9 10:18:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <005401c64374$176414a0$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <000301c643a5$cc9ca2c0$da4fd0c4@privatehome> Hi all, This seems to be a very complex issue. HOWEVER, who is in a position to police the law which allows one to collect 25 pounds plus one piece of petrified wood up to a maximum of 250 pounds per year on BLM land? A good friend of mine, who is a Member of Parliament in South Africa, once told me that any government should not pass laws wich are impossible to enforce and police. The above-mentioned law falls into this category and is not worth the paper it is written on. Many government representatives live in ivory towers and have no clue as to how certain government officials are supposed to carry out and police such laws. In South Africa, for example, we have a law which prohibits anybody from possessing, selling or buying a "unique geological specimen" without having a valid permit. The law does not even define what a "unique geological specimen" is. Such laws "encourage" certain people to "break the laws" as conviction is a very remote possibility and a highly unlikely probability. Horst Windisch Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > Regulations on fossil collecting vary from state to state and nation to > nation. Regulations are changing and in addition, both interpretation and > enforcement of existing regulations are changing. > > In the US, if you collect on private land with the owner's permission, the > fossil is legally collected. This can be complicated by what defines > ownership as in the case with Sue. It can be complicated by defining > exactly what permission was granted. For example were you given permission > to collect, excavate or just look for. Care must also be taken to ensure > that one has not accidentally crossed a boundary during collecting. > > In some states collecting is allowed along highway rights of way and in > others it is illegal. In some cases the illegality is the result of > highway safety laws rather than an issue with collecting per se. > > The laws on US federal land are specific to the type of land (BLM, Forest, > Park etc.) and the type of fossil, as well as who is doing the collecting. > For instance petrified wood can be collected on BLM land (25 pounds plus > one piece for no more than 250 lb. per year) while vertebrates may only be > collected with a permit issued to a duly qualified research party. > > The rules are so complicated that I restrict collecting to areas I know to > be legal. > > Foreign fossils are another matter. Some nations have laws against the > export of fossils and may or may not have laws against the collecting and > possession. The Argentina law for instance prohibits export of fossils but > does not address pine cones that were outside Argentina prior to the ban. > Some nations will promote fossil export as a means of providing revenue > and income to its citizens, while retaining strict control over > vertebrates. Madagascar comes to mind. > > Check the regulations for your state before you collect. > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "minnesota_pebble_pup" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:31 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > > >> >> >> --- Michael Schmidt wrote: >> >>> he was caught with chinese fossils.....and they are >>> all illegal. >> >> >> Michael...Terrie, >> I have been reading bits of news here and there about >> fossil collecting. I read the article about the >> troubles at the museum. I've heard of fossil sites >> being under federal protection now (and even seen a >> place in Nebraska posted 'protected' years back). It's >> all got me confused. How far has it gone? Are >> rockhounds legally allowed to pick up fossils any >> more? And if we can, what is allowed and what isn't? I >> certainly don't want to pick up something I think is >> an interesting rock only to end up arested for it! >> (yes, I know, need to learn to identify. But with the >> laws appearing continually how will people ever know >> in the future?) >> completely baffled, >> Jonna in Minnesota >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From Cycadwood at aol.com Thu Mar 9 11:32:36 2006 From: Cycadwood at aol.com (Cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 9 11:32:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question Message-ID: <23d.849cbb9.3141dcd4@aol.com> In a message dated 3/9/2006 11:19:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, horstwindisch@absamail.co.za writes: A good friend of mine, who is a Member of Parliament in South Africa, once told me that any government should not pass laws which are impossible to enforce and police. *****This is an excellent point. My background includes nearly a quarter century as a prosecuting attorney at state and federal levels and more than that as a rockhound. I have been a close observer of laws pertaining to collecting on public lands. The most troublesome laws arise from lazy lawmakers. It's far easier to impose a complete ban than to fashion a fair and reasonable law. Another problem federally is that the legislators for the bulk of the US have no idea how people live and think in the West. Hundreds of thousands of our citizens have been involved, since the 1940's, in rockhounding activities, individually or through the many Gem and Mineral Clubs. I cannot think of a more wholesome family activity - rockhounding involves the out-of-doors, nature, geology, mineralogy paleontology, fresh air, sunshine, and a lot of exercise. In addition, rockhounds have made countless important discoveries that they went on to report to university researchers. The Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument is a good example. When it was first proposed there was talk of keeping the existing status for rock collecting. There had been for many years a square mile petrified wood preserve within it. Everybody respected that. Sure, let's save a section for future study. After much discussion about rock collecting within the 1.7 million acre monument the federal government did the predictable thing and banned all rock collecting - you can't even pick up a Moki marble. Do we really need to save all 1.7 million acres of rocks? The reason: it was easy. Before this it was Lake Powell National Recreation Area, and so on. My two cents worth, Frank Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From albalmer at att.net Thu Mar 9 11:34:30 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Thu Mar 9 11:34:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <000301c643a5$cc9ca2c0$da4fd0c4@privatehome> References: <20060309083144.27039.qmail@web32615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <005401c64374$176414a0$6400a8c0@hppav> <000301c643a5$cc9ca2c0$da4fd0c4@privatehome> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:59:03 +0200, "Horst Windisch" wrote: >This seems to be a very complex issue. HOWEVER, who is in a position to >police the law which allows one to collect 25 pounds plus one piece of >petrified wood up to a maximum of 250 pounds per year on BLM land? > >A good friend of mine, who is a Member of Parliament in South Africa, once >told me that any government should not pass laws wich are impossible to >enforce and police. The above-mentioned law falls into this category and is >not worth the paper it is written on. Many government representatives live >in ivory towers and have no clue as to how certain government officials are >supposed to carry out and police such laws. I can't really agree with that. Many laws are impossible to enforce and police, most notably common traffic laws, or in my area, laws against illegal entry into the country, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are bad laws or that we shouldn't *try* to enforce them. There are certain areas (Petrified Forest National Park) where the wood law is enforced, and you may well get caught in other areas. Like the guy who passed me doing 85 mph this morning, you may get away with it, but if you're caught on BLM land with a half-ton of wood and no receipt for it, I won't sympathize. At the least, the laws provide guidelines for law-abiding people, and, believe it or not, there are quite a few such people. Off topic, but in this area, a particular section of freeway has been instrumented, and *everyone* driving more than 11 miles over the limit is getting a ticket. Personally, I think uniform and impartial enforcement of the law is a good thing, but this has raised such a furor that the state legislature is considering a bill to outlaw such law enforcement. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Thu Mar 9 15:01:56 2006 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Thu Mar 9 14:48:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Unusual Question Message-ID: <001d01c643cd$773868a0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> To the list: I am working with 120 sixth graders on an art & science project. We are working on a mural that is 18 feet by 8 feet. Our subject is the Italian city of Florence.I need information about the type of stone(s) used for building facing and paving. Were there any quarries near by? Any other geological feature would be welcome. Thanks! Carolyn Reynard --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Thu Mar 9 17:04:17 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Thu Mar 9 17:04:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Unusual Question Message-ID: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Carolyn, I'm sure there must be much info available on the internet, about what kind of building stones were used in Florence. Italy is famous for use of stone, especially for marble. Carrara marble, from Tuscany, is famous throughout the world as pure white marble, and this would have been used everywhere in Italy, probably for the more special and valuable stone uses. I'm sure there were many other sources of marble and other building and ornamental stones in Italy, too. Here is just the first web site I found about Carrara marble: http://www.freefoto.com/browse.jsp?id=14-03-0 I'm sure you will find much more information, this is all I can offer at the moment. Pete Modreski -------------- Original message from "Carolyn Reynard" : -------------- > To the list: I am working with 120 sixth graders on an art & science project. We > are working on a mural that is 18 feet by 8 feet. Our subject is the Italian > city of Florence.I need information about the type of stone(s) used for building > facing and paving. Were there any quarries near by? Any other geological > feature would be welcome. Thanks! > > Carolyn Reynard > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Mar 9 17:29:16 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Mar 9 17:26:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Unusual Question References: <001d01c643cd$773868a0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <4410D5A8.168D@Tomaszewski.net> Looking up Florence Province on Mindat gives 49 minerals and identifies several collecting sites and a quarry in the area around Florence. A google search for "quarries florence italy" identifies day trips you can book from Florence to the world famous marble quarries in the area that produce pink, red, green, and white marble. A google search for "buildings florence italy" will give you details on most of the buildings in the city. Have fun with your kids and mural project. Kreigh Carolyn Reynard wrote: > > To the list: I am working with 120 sixth graders on an art & science project. We are working on a mural that is 18 feet by 8 feet. Our subject is the Italian city of Florence.I need information about the type of stone(s) used for building facing and paving. Were there any quarries near by? Any other geological feature would be welcome. Thanks! > > Carolyn Reynard > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Mar 9 19:42:10 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Mar 9 19:42:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Clement Mineral Museum show flier Message-ID: <001a01c643f4$9cf15260$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> If anyone is a member of a geology club that might have members interested in attending the Clement Mineral Museum's first mineral, fossil & gem show (in western Kentucky) on June 3 & 4, I can provide a pdf flier. It is a ~750k document. Contact me directly (deepskyspy@insightbb.com) -- no need to bother the rest of the group. They have finally got the dealer details worked out. It will be very reasonably priced. A number of mine sites in Kentucky will be opened to collect fluorite, sphalerite, smithsonite, galena, quartz, calcite, etc. Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com Thu Mar 9 19:48:05 2006 From: jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com (Jeanne Rhodes Moen) Date: Thu Mar 9 19:48:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <001a01c643f4$9cf15260$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <001a01c643f4$9cf15260$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <4410F6F5.7060209@jeanniusdesigns.com> been itching to go out rock hunting and exploring the W. NC mine scene, but I hurt my back a few weeks ago (sciatica), and while it's better, I am not up to an out and out mine experience with heavy lifting and lots of bending and back stress...so I've decided to drag the kids to Spruce Pine to Gem Mountain on Saturday. They claim their buckets are filled with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. Has anyone been there and have any suggestions as to how high one has to go before they are going to get more than common quartz and junk? Jeanne ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jonee at epix.net Thu Mar 9 23:24:54 2006 From: jonee at epix.net (jonee@epix.net) Date: Thu Mar 9 23:25:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, Message-ID: <200603100724.k2A7OsXJ029005@dill.epix.net> Jeanne wrote: They claim their buckets are filled with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. Wellll...repeat caveat emptor 100 times before you go, I'll explain... While I can't speak to this specific site I've been around this type operation in the Smokie Mountain tourist traps to pass them by. While I understand there are some legitimate miners where material from a specific mine is offered via this method to avoid liability issues-- everything I've seen in the area is salted with dreg Brazilian material I wouldn't give away to kids at a rock swap. It is my belief that enough "real" material(far from collecting grade)is included to avoid outright fraud. But other than local recycled dirt this isn't kosher enough to be called local gem material--it ain't local and it ain't gem. One more clue was the fact there was no mica at all in the mix, something every pegmatite I've ever worked has had. Years back I went, owing to the insistence of a visitor. We "panned" for gemstones(rolling eyes). Since I was over my friends shoulder, I did go through her pan and picked out anything that wasn't sandstone/quartzite. There were some small gray corundum hexagonals, some "gernet", some polished turretella agate, tiger eye( must be the legendary North Carolina Lost Tiger-Eye Claim), etc. I must assume was from a tumbler reject pile, etc. and one solitary "ahem" "amaer -thest" crystal with barely enough purple to be "amaer-thest". Relieved that this exercise was over with just one $10 bag of dirt, we picked up and and tried to leave when the "mine worker" insisted that we might have a world class gem and should take it to the "appraiser" inside to have it identified. I insisted that I knew everything in the meager pile of 10-15 pieces and started back to the car when he blocked my path insisting that I had to go thru the apprasiers office to get to the parking lot--(Yeah? Right!) Well, I got waylaid there by one of the staff "GED-trained gemologists"--it was clear I wasn't getting out without hearing the pitch. We were seated at a counter and the gemologist(sic) spread out my friends pile of pickin's. She raked off the pile including the only thing I was interested in--the corundum, and told me it was "wasn't anyhting I'd be interested in", except for the amythest which "was an incredible find and wouldn't it be a wonderful thing to have cut for my "wife's" ring"..yada yada..and they "could cut the stone on premise in about an hour, mount it in a subtile setting and all for $399-$599 depending on the setting or if I wanted tow smaller stones for earrings." (I can't even set up my saw and mark a stone for cutting in less than 30 minutes and they are going to cut facet and mount it in 60???) "Ok, I get the rest of the scam now!" I thought to myself. After several "no thankyous" and "we really must gos" we got up and I asked for the rest of the mater! ial--to which she again balked at me taking with me. I guess I found the only "local material" in the whole "mine" and they didn't want it to go out the door. They would have to order some more and that would be another $.50 in lost profit. I got the material and I got another lesson in scamology. Like you have done-- get plenty of advice as to who is considered legit before you stop off at the tourist traps er "shafts". Elton Epilogue: If this isn't enough "buyer beware admonishment"...I peaked around the curtains, so to speak and saw a pile of fresh dirt from the settlement pond,wheelbarrow-sized piles of the quartzite dregs from the flue-- aside what looked like a potting table set up for filling little cloth bags with..you guessed it, recycled local dirt and gravel. My guess is they had a little ole lady there to make sure at least one brazilian amythest crystal--too large to overlook, found it's way into each little bag. From Kenny.Gay at ncmail.net Fri Mar 10 05:56:07 2006 From: Kenny.Gay at ncmail.net (Kenny Gay) Date: Fri Mar 10 05:57:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Raleigh Club Show Message-ID: <44118577.3060105@ncmail.net> <>TAR HEEL GEM AND MINERAL CLUB PRESENTS <> THE 30TH ANNUAL GEM AND MINERAL SHOW <> Kerr Scott Building, NC State Fairgrounds, Raleigh, North Carolina <> Friday March 24th 5:00pm - 9:00pm Saturday March 25th 10:00am - 7:00pm Sunday March 26th 10:00am - 5:00pm FREE PARKING AND FREE ADMISSION If any list member is planning to come to the show, be sure to look me up, it would be nice to have a face for a name. If anyone needs directions just let me know. Hope to see everyone soon! Kenny NC Geological Survey & Club President this year --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Fri Mar 10 08:10:07 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Fri Mar 10 08:10:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <4410F6F5.7060209@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <007101c6445d$0670c960$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Jeanne: I've been to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine. While it isn't like going to a car closing with a car salesman there is a strong pitch to buy the "salted; er, upgraded" buckets. The salted materials are much as Elton describes; somebody else's discards and occasional lesser quality semiprecious stones. Many of the lapidary materials in the salted buckets have flat sides from being sawn and I did see one perform with pencil marks. I had brought mine and my brothers kids; not being sure that the bottom level of "mine run; cough!" buckets would have anything worthwhile I added some small quartz crystals when the kids weren't looking. More on this later... Well, the basic bottom grade local mine-run buckets had an amazing array of junk lapidary pieces. Same stuff that is found in the upgraded buckets only smaller... like lapidary chips instead of pieces. There was the usual salted garnets along with amethyst like pieces and even pieces of malachite and sodalite (from a pegmatite?); basically nothing exciting and very little local. Well, the kids were still excited and ran off to have their stuff identified, which is the level before appraisal. I loved the look in the guy's eyes when the kids proudly showed their sparkly quartz crystals. He never said a word, but it was obvious that these were not "normal" for their mine run buckets... He did look at me several times while he looked the crystals over but I gave him my best dumb poker face. Yes, we got the pitch about how pretty the amethyst chips and garnet pieces would be when faceted and set. We got a stronger pitch to give it another go-around with the "upgraded" buckets. A fortune in every one! Bah! Though somehow a number of white feldspar chunks from their parking lot ended up in my trunk. The feldspar is pure white and is from the old Spruce Mountain mine. We returned to a local campground and headed to Asheville the next day and visited the Pressley mine near Canton; then the Woodcreek mine the next day. At least when you find corundum in the Pressley/Woodcreek dirt it is truly local. I've never gone back to Spruce Pine. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanne Rhodes Moen Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 10:48 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine,NC...any recommendations? been itching to go out rock hunting and exploring the W. NC mine scene, but I hurt my back a few weeks ago (sciatica), and while it's better, I am not up to an out and out mine experience with heavy lifting and lots of bending and back stress...so I've decided to drag the kids to Spruce Pine to Gem Mountain on Saturday. They claim their buckets are filled with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. Has anyone been there and have any suggestions as to how high one has to go before they are going to get more than common quartz and junk? Jeanne ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pjmodreski at att.net Fri Mar 10 10:07:26 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Fri Mar 10 10:07:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US Message-ID: <031020061807.14176.4411C05D000B970D00003760216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi, List, I just received this email to my USGS address, and thought I'd forward it to the Rockhounds List. I'm sure some others of you may be receiving it from MapMuse.com too, but I guess I can be the first to post it on the List. I just checked out their clubs and rockshops maps for Colorado, they seem fairly accurate, they don't yet have quite everything listed that they could, and a few of the listings look like they may be out of date. But it looks like a useful site. Sorry the type from their forwarded message appears so tiny, I can't figure out how to make it larger (if someone else can, you can reforward it to the list). Pete Modreski -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: Peter J Modreski To: pjmodreski@att.net Subject: Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:57:15 +0000 ----- Forwarded by Peter J Modreski/DO/USGS/DOI on 03/10/2006 10:56 AM ----- Hi, I am writing to let rock enthusiasts know that MapMuse.com has added nationwide maps of Rock Shops and Rock Clubs and Societies to its services. Following is the link to the Rocks and Minerals Directory, which has the links to the these two maps: http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmHomeInterestsList.php?cat=Rocks%20and%20Minerals The idea is for rock enthusiasts to build upon what we have started by enhancing the information we already have, and adding clubs and shops that we have missed. Please note that descriptive information, as well as photos can be added directly to the profiles by our visitors. There is an ADD and EDIT feature on the site (you can refer to http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmFAQ.htm#A4 if you have any questions about making changes). Through this kind of community effort, we hope to have the most comprehensive, and descriptive maps for rock enthusiasts to use at home, and on their travels. We would appreciate if you would participate in the process, by checking if your local rock shops and clubs are mapped, enhancing information as you see fit, and adding shops and clubs that we missed. Also, if you find these maps useful, please pass the word on to like-minded friends. Lastly, if you have a rock related website, or a rock related blog/ newsletter, we would appreciated a link. Thanks, Cindy Jett MapMuse.com 1326 14th Street NW Washington, DC 20005 If you wish to unsubscribe to this mailing list please click the link.http://mail.mapmuse.com/re1/emailUnsubscribe.php?id=8d39520acb16e25fe0a781b6d0836440 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rocknate at gmail.com Fri Mar 10 11:28:15 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Fri Mar 10 11:28:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US In-Reply-To: <031020061807.14176.4411C05D000B970D00003760216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <031020061807.14176.4411C05D000B970D00003760216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: Pete, Thanks for the URL - this is an interesting website. One word of caution to any one using it is that they appear to have done data mining using the federation websites that list all member clubs. On most of these the address that is listed is the address of a club officer and not the meeting locality of the club. In the case of the Boston Mineral Club the address listed is that of our former club treasurer from 2 to 3 years ago. I tried to change it to represent the address where our meetings take place and am waiting for the update to be approved/reviewed. I suggest that each club check there information and decide what address they want to appear there. Thanks again, Nate Martin On 3/10/06, pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > > Hi, List, > > I just received this email to my USGS address, and thought I'd forward it > to the Rockhounds List. I'm sure some others of you may be receiving it > from MapMuse.com too, but I guess I can be the first to post it on the > List. I just checked out their clubs and rockshops maps for Colorado, they > seem fairly accurate, they don't yet have quite everything listed that they > could, and a few of the listings look like they may be out of date. But it > looks like a useful site. Sorry the type from their forwarded message > appears so tiny, I can't figure out how to make it larger (if someone else > can, you can reforward it to the list). > > Pete Modreski > > -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- > From: Peter J Modreski > To: pjmodreski@att.net > Subject: Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the > US > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:57:15 +0000 > > > ----- Forwarded by Peter J Modreski/DO/USGS/DOI on 03/10/2006 10:56 AM > ----- > > Hi, > > I am writing to let rock enthusiasts know that MapMuse.com has > added nationwide maps of Rock Shops and Rock Clubs and Societies to its > services. Following is the link to the Rocks and Minerals Directory, which > has the links to the these two maps: > > > > > http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmHomeInterestsList.php?cat=Rocks%20and%20Minerals > > > > The idea is for rock enthusiasts to build upon what we have started by > enhancing the information we already have, and adding clubs and shops that > we have missed. Please note that descriptive information, as well as photos > can be added directly to the profiles by our visitors. There is an ADD and > EDIT feature on the site (you can refer to > http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmFAQ.htm#A4 if you have any questions about > making changes). Through this kind of community effort, we hope to have the > most comprehensive, and descriptive maps for rock enthusiasts to use at > home, and on their travels. We would appreciate if you would participate in > the process, by checking if your local rock shops and clubs are mapped, > enhancing information as you see fit, and adding shops and clubs that we > missed. Also, if you find these maps useful, please pass the word on to > like-minded friends. > > > > Lastly, if you have a rock related website, or a rock related blog/ > newsletter, we would appreciated a link. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Cindy Jett > > MapMuse.com > > 1326 14th Street NW > > Washington, DC 20005 > > > If you wish to unsubscribe to this mailing list please click the link > .http://mail.mapmuse.com/re1/emailUnsubscribe.php?id=8d39520acb16e25fe0a781b6d0836440 > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Cycadwood at aol.com Fri Mar 10 11:35:03 2006 From: Cycadwood at aol.com (Cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 10 11:35:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across... Message-ID: <5b.7b9430f2.31432ee7@aol.com> In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:29:09 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rocknate@gmail.com writes: http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmHomeInterestsList.php?cat=Rocks%20and%20Minerals I checked the Colorado Rock Shops. Quite a few are home addresses for individuals who dabble in the business. Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Mar 10 12:16:12 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Mar 10 12:16:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, References: <200603100724.k2A7OsXJ029005@dill.epix.net> Message-ID: <002901c6447f$7a6b5e30$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Sounds to me those "digs" are designed for John Q. Public, not Rock Hound. You are really paying for the experience, not the stones. Maybe they should put up a sign "Experienced Collectors Not Welcome!" Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, > Jeanne wrote: They claim their buckets are filled with local material from > up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. > > Wellll...repeat caveat emptor 100 times before you go, I'll explain... > > While I can't speak to this specific site I've been around this type > operation in the Smokie Mountain tourist traps to pass them by. While I > understand there are some legitimate miners where material from a specific > mine is offered via this method to avoid liability issues-- everything > I've seen in the area is salted with dreg Brazilian material I wouldn't > give away to kids at a rock swap. It is my belief that enough "real" > material(far from collecting grade)is included to avoid outright fraud. > But other than local recycled dirt this isn't kosher enough to be called > local gem material--it ain't local and it ain't gem. One more clue was the > fact there was no mica at all in the mix, something every pegmatite I've > ever worked has had. > > Years back I went, owing to the insistence of a visitor. We "panned" for > gemstones(rolling eyes). Since I was over my friends shoulder, I did go > through her pan and picked out anything that wasn't sandstone/quartzite. > There were some small gray corundum hexagonals, some "gernet", some > polished turretella agate, tiger eye( must be the legendary North Carolina > Lost Tiger-Eye Claim), etc. I must assume was from a tumbler reject pile, > etc. and one solitary "ahem" "amaer -thest" crystal with barely enough > purple to be "amaer-thest". > > Relieved that this exercise was over with just one $10 bag of dirt, we > picked up and and tried to leave when the "mine worker" insisted that we > might have a world class gem and should take it to the "appraiser" inside > to have it identified. I insisted that I knew everything in the meager > pile of 10-15 pieces and started back to the car when he blocked my path > insisting that I had to go thru the apprasiers office to get to the > parking lot--(Yeah? Right!) > > Well, I got waylaid there by one of the staff "GED-trained > gemologists"--it was clear I wasn't getting out without hearing the pitch. > We were seated at a counter and the gemologist(sic) spread out my friends > pile of pickin's. She raked off the pile including the only thing I was > interested in--the corundum, and told me it was "wasn't anyhting I'd be > interested in", except for the amythest which "was an incredible find and > wouldn't it be a wonderful thing to have cut for my "wife's" ring"..yada > yada..and they "could cut the stone on premise in about an hour, mount it > in a subtile setting and all for $399-$599 depending on the setting or if > I wanted tow smaller stones for earrings." (I can't even set up my saw and > mark a stone for cutting in less than 30 minutes and they are going to cut > facet and mount it in 60???) "Ok, I get the rest of the scam now!" I > thought to myself. After several "no thankyous" and "we really must gos" > we got up and I asked for the rest of the mater! > ial--to which she again balked at me taking with me. I guess I found the > only "local material" in the whole "mine" and they didn't want it to go > out the door. They would have to order some more and that would be > another $.50 in lost profit. I got the material and I got another lesson > in scamology. > > Like you have done-- get plenty of advice as to who is considered legit > before you stop off at the tourist traps er "shafts". > > Elton > > Epilogue: If this isn't enough "buyer beware admonishment"...I peaked > around the curtains, so to speak and saw a pile of fresh dirt from the > settlement pond,wheelbarrow-sized piles of the quartzite dregs from the > flue-- aside what looked like a potting table set up for filling little > cloth bags with..you guessed it, recycled local dirt and gravel. My guess > is they had a little ole lady there to make sure at least one brazilian > amythest crystal--too large to overlook, found it's way into each little > bag. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Mar 10 12:19:59 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 10 12:20:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question Message-ID: <8C81297237C7E4D-458-1D305@MBLK-M30.sysops.aol.com> Hi Group, I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. The gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. Does anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to properly label the specimens. Thankyou, Dave Phillips Sunset Fossils & Minerals Morgantown, WV --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rocks4u at prodigy.net Fri Mar 10 12:14:19 2006 From: rocks4u at prodigy.net (rocks4u@prodigy.net) Date: Fri Mar 10 12:20:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US References: <031020061807.14176.4411C05D000B970D00003760216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <011001c6447f$375ac9f0$8d27fea9@WesMedion1918> Thanks Pete! Our club wasn't listed even though it's found on the Federation website. I added it as well as my rock shop. Thanks for the heads up. The site might be useful in the future. Wes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:07 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops,and Rock Clubs across the US > Hi, List, > > I just received this email to my USGS address, and thought I'd forward it > to the Rockhounds List. I'm sure some others of you may be receiving it > from MapMuse.com too, but I guess I can be the first to post it on the > List. I just checked out their clubs and rockshops maps for Colorado, > they seem fairly accurate, they don't yet have quite everything listed > that they could, and a few of the listings look like they may be out of > date. But it looks like a useful site. Sorry the type from their > forwarded message appears so tiny, I can't figure out how to make it > larger (if someone else can, you can reforward it to the list). > > Pete Modreski > > From pjmodreski at att.net Fri Mar 10 12:41:59 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Fri Mar 10 12:42:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question Message-ID: <031020062041.29983.4411E496000CFC1E0000751F216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi Dave, There is often diopside associated with the "wernerite", that fluoresces blue; I'm sure that's what you probably have. P.S., as purists will point out (and they'll jump on me if I answer and don't say this), "wernerite" is not an official mineral name, it is really a variety name for yellow-fluorescent scapolite. But, furthermore, "scapolite" is itself not an official mineral species name either, it is considered to be a group name, for the series between meionite (Ca-rich) and marialite (Na-rich). But everyone (who collects minerals) knows what everyone else means, when they say wernerite. You only might get into trouble if exhibiting it in a competitive display, where one is required to use the proper names. But I had to add this! Pete -------------- Original message from betdav97@aol.com: -------------- > > Hi Group, > I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. The > gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. Does > anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to > properly > label the specimens. > Thankyou, > Dave Phillips > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at verizon.net Fri Mar 10 13:18:27 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Mar 10 13:18:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060310111117.024df138@incoming.verizon.net> Hi, Pete. I was going to jump in on the "wernerite" matter, but decided to wait and see if a real expert would do it...and you did! Thanks! Aloha, Kitty At 10:41 AM 3/10/2006, pjmodreski wrote: > >P.S., as purists will point out (and they'll jump on me if I answer and >don't say this), "wernerite" is not an official mineral name, it is really >a variety name for yellow-fluorescent scapolite. But, furthermore, >"scapolite" is itself not an official mineral species name either, it is >considered to be a group name, for the series between meionite (Ca-rich) >and marialite (Na-rich). But everyone (who collects minerals) knows what >everyone else means, when they say wernerite. You only might get into >trouble if exhibiting it in a competitive display, where one is required >to use the proper names. But I had to add this! > >Pete From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Fri Mar 10 14:06:24 2006 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Fri Mar 10 13:52:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question References: <8C81297237C7E4D-458-1D305@MBLK-M30.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <003101c6448e$df51c280$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Is this under a short or long wave UV lamp? There are a few minerals that might be in that location that would fluoresce blue: fluorite (blue-violet), fluorapatite, agrellite, microcline, orthoclase, albite, dioside. Also, bits of cloth and lint give a vivid blue response. Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question > > Hi Group, > I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. The > gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. Does > anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to properly > label the specimens. > Thankyou, > Dave Phillips > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From tam2819 at cox.net Fri Mar 10 13:57:27 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Fri Mar 10 13:57:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US In-Reply-To: <031020061807.14176.4411C05D000B970D00003760216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <031020061807.14176.4411C05D000B970D00003760216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: Pete, I received a direct personal email, now how and where they got it other than harvesting from one list or another, I don't know. I am not happy about it, and should I be suspicious of pressing their unsub link? Hate to suggest rock related stuff is spam, but if it walks like it........... What do others think? Terrie From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Fri Mar 10 15:01:55 2006 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Fri Mar 10 14:48:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question References: <8C81297237C7E4D-458-1D305@MBLK-M30.sysops.aol.com> <003101c6448e$df51c280$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <000f01c64496$a0d6e960$dca6a418@feldsparflash> That is diopside!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Reynard" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question > Is this under a short or long wave UV lamp? There are a few minerals that > might be in that location that would fluoresce blue: fluorite (blue-violet), > fluorapatite, agrellite, microcline, orthoclase, albite, dioside. Also, bits > of cloth and lint give a vivid blue response. > Carolyn Reynard > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:19 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question > > > > > > Hi Group, > > I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. > The > > gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. > Does > > anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to > properly > > label the specimens. > > Thankyou, > > Dave Phillips > > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > > Morgantown, WV > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From pjmodreski at att.net Fri Mar 10 15:35:31 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Fri Mar 10 15:35:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US Message-ID: <031020062335.29557.44120D42000E9F1700007375216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Terrie, I don't know how they found my email address either. However, since it was my "official" USGS email address that they wrote to, and that is a matter of public record and public accessibility (one can get my address by going to the USGS web site and searching on my name, because I am listed as the Geologic Resource Specialist for gemstones, quartz, and several other mineral commodities), I was not surprised or disturbed that they had it. It seemed appropriate for them to send this to me. As to you or others, I don't know what to say. It seemed fairly "innocuous". Pete -------------- Original message from Teresa Masters : -------------- > Pete, > I received a direct personal email, now how and where they got it other > than harvesting from one list or another, I don't know. > > I am not happy about it, and should I be suspicious of pressing their > unsub link? > > Hate to suggest rock related stuff is spam, but if it walks like > it........... > > What do others think? > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Mar 10 16:22:43 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Mar 10 16:22:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: Interactive Mapping of Rock Shops, and Rock Clubs across the US References: <031020062335.29557.44120D42000E9F1700007375216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <44121842.7687@Tomaszewski.net> I also received the notice directly. Since I have no relationship with MapMuse they obviously harvested my address (and others) to do their mass mailing. I would have no problems if they had joined the list and made their announcement. I would have no problems if they filled out the comment form on my website to tell me. But when they harvest my email address and use it in a mass mailing they are spammers. And they confirm it by giving me a link to unsubscribe from something I never subscribed to. Kreigh pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > > Terrie, > > I don't know how they found my email address either. However, since it was my "official" USGS email address that they wrote to, and that is a matter of public record and public accessibility (one can get my address by going to the USGS web site and searching on my name, because I am listed as the Geologic Resource Specialist for gemstones, quartz, and several other mineral commodities), I was not surprised or disturbed that they had it. It seemed appropriate for them to send this to me. As to > > Pete > > -------------- Original message from Teresa Masters : -------------- > > > Pete, > > I received a direct personal email, now how and where they got it other > > than harvesting from one list or another, I don't know. > > > > I am not happy about it, and should I be suspicious of pressing their > > unsub link? > > > > Hate to suggest rock related stuff is spam, but if it walks like > > it........... > > > > What do others think? > > Terrie From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Mar 10 17:01:04 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 10 17:01:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question In-Reply-To: <031020062041.29983.4411E496000CFC1E0000751F216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <031020062041.29983.4411E496000CFC1E0000751F216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <8C812BE68201576-1A24-85DC@FWM-M34.sysops.aol.com> Pete and Carolyn, Thankyou for a very prompt response; I realized after I send the e-mail that I didn't mention long or short wave. I'm glad you knew what I was talking about. I'll label the specimens appropriately. Thanks again, Dave Hi Dave, There is often diopside associated with the "wernerite", that fluoresces blue; I'm sure that's what you probably have. P.S., as purists will point out (and they'll jump on me if I answer and don't say this), "wernerite" is not an official mineral name, it is really a variety name for yellow-fluorescent scapolite. But, furthermore, "scapolite" is itself not an official mineral species name either, it is considered to be a group name, for the series between meionite (Ca-rich) and marialite (Na-rich). But everyone (who collects minerals) knows what everyone else means, when they say wernerite. You only might get into trouble if exhibiting it in a competitive display, where one is required to use the proper names. But I had to add this! Pete -------------- Original message from betdav97@aol.com: -------------- > > Hi Group, > I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. The > gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. Does > anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to > properly > label the specimens. > Thankyou, > Dave Phillips > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > Morgantown, WV > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Fri Mar 10 17:33:24 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Fri Mar 10 17:33:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question Message-ID: <031120060133.10176.441228E2000D62D1000027C0216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Dave, and then, actually, (and now), I wondered about the LW or SW, because the wernerite fluoresces best LW, and the diopside, I think, best SW. But perhaps they both fluoresce enough to notice, under the same light (LW, probably). Pete -------------- Original message from betdav97@aol.com: -------------- > > Pete and Carolyn, > Thankyou for a very prompt response; I realized after I send the e-mail that > I didn't mention long or short wave. I'm glad you knew what I was talking about. > I'll label the specimens appropriately. > Thanks again, > Dave > > Hi Dave, > > There is often diopside associated with the "wernerite", that fluoresces blue; > I'm sure that's what you probably have. > > P.S., as purists will point out (and they'll jump on me if I answer and don't > say this), "wernerite" is not an official mineral name, it is really a variety > name for yellow-fluorescent scapolite. But, furthermore, "scapolite" is itself > not an official mineral species name either, it is considered to be a group > name, for the series between meionite (Ca-rich) and marialite (Na-rich). But > everyone (who collects minerals) knows what everyone else means, when they say > wernerite. You only might get into trouble if exhibiting it in a competitive > display, where one is required to use the proper names. But I had to add this! > > Pete > -------------- Original message from betdav97@aol.com: -------------- > > > > > > Hi Group, > > I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. The > > gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. Does > > anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to > > properly > > label the specimens. > > Thankyou, > > Dave Phillips > > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > > Morgantown, WV > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Fri Mar 10 17:49:53 2006 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Fri Mar 10 17:36:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Unusual Question References: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <001501c644ae$182c1be0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Thank you Pete and Kreigh, I am finding many images that will help my students with their painting! The patterns of white, red and green marble on the Cathedral of Florence is truly amazing. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Unusual Question > Carolyn, > > I'm sure there must be much info available on the internet, about what kind of building stones were used in Florence. > > Italy is famous for use of stone, especially for marble. Carrara marble, from Tuscany, is famous throughout the world as pure white marble, and this would have been used everywhere in Italy, probably for the more special and valuable stone uses. I'm sure there were many other sources of marble and other building and ornamental stones in Italy, too. Here is just the first web site I found about Carrara marble: > > http://www.freefoto.com/browse.jsp?id=14-03-0 > > I'm sure you will find much more information, this is all I can offer at the moment. > > Pete Modreski > > > -------------- Original message from "Carolyn Reynard" : -------------- > > > > To the list: I am working with 120 sixth graders on an art & science project. We > > are working on a mural that is 18 feet by 8 feet. Our subject is the Italian > > city of Florence.I need information about the type of stone(s) used for building > > facing and paving. Were there any quarries near by? Any other geological > > feature would be welcome. Thanks! > > > > Carolyn Reynard > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com Fri Mar 10 17:54:52 2006 From: jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com (Jeanne Rhodes Moen) Date: Fri Mar 10 17:54:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, In-Reply-To: <002901c6447f$7a6b5e30$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <200603100724.k2A7OsXJ029005@dill.epix.net> <002901c6447f$7a6b5e30$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <44122DEC.6020307@jeanniusdesigns.com> something tells me it may be best to buy some of the cheaper buckets w/ less 'salting' and take my chances. I would rather go dig, but I am just getting over a bad case of sciatica and with the warm weather this weekend, was itching to get out somewhere! Jeanne ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alan Goldstein wrote: > Sounds to me those "digs" are designed for John Q. Public, not Rock > Hound. You are really paying for the experience, not the stones. Maybe > they should put up a sign "Experienced Collectors Not Welcome!" > > Alan > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: ; > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, > > >> Jeanne wrote: They claim their buckets are filled with local material >> from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. >> >> Wellll...repeat caveat emptor 100 times before you go, I'll explain... >> >> While I can't speak to this specific site I've been around this type >> operation in the Smokie Mountain tourist traps to pass them by. While >> I understand there are some legitimate miners where material from a >> specific mine is offered via this method to avoid liability issues-- >> everything I've seen in the area is salted with dreg Brazilian >> material I wouldn't give away to kids at a rock swap. It is my belief >> that enough "real" material(far from collecting grade)is included to >> avoid outright fraud. But other than local recycled dirt this isn't >> kosher enough to be called local gem material--it ain't local and it >> ain't gem. One more clue was the fact there was no mica at all in the >> mix, something every pegmatite I've ever worked has had. >> >> Years back I went, owing to the insistence of a visitor. We "panned" >> for gemstones(rolling eyes). Since I was over my friends shoulder, I >> did go through her pan and picked out anything that wasn't >> sandstone/quartzite. There were some small gray corundum hexagonals, >> some "gernet", some polished turretella agate, tiger eye( must be the >> legendary North Carolina Lost Tiger-Eye Claim), etc. I must assume >> was from a tumbler reject pile, etc. and one solitary "ahem" "amaer >> -thest" crystal with barely enough purple to be "amaer-thest". >> >> Relieved that this exercise was over with just one $10 bag of dirt, >> we picked up and and tried to leave when the "mine worker" insisted >> that we might have a world class gem and should take it to the >> "appraiser" inside to have it identified. I insisted that I knew >> everything in the meager pile of 10-15 pieces and started back to the >> car when he blocked my path insisting that I had to go thru the >> apprasiers office to get to the parking lot--(Yeah? Right!) >> >> Well, I got waylaid there by one of the staff "GED-trained >> gemologists"--it was clear I wasn't getting out without hearing the >> pitch. We were seated at a counter and the gemologist(sic) spread >> out my friends pile of pickin's. She raked off the pile including >> the only thing I was interested in--the corundum, and told me it was >> "wasn't anyhting I'd be interested in", except for the amythest which >> "was an incredible find and wouldn't it be a wonderful thing to have >> cut for my "wife's" ring"..yada yada..and they "could cut the stone >> on premise in about an hour, mount it in a subtile setting and all >> for $399-$599 depending on the setting or if I wanted tow smaller >> stones for earrings." (I can't even set up my saw and mark a stone >> for cutting in less than 30 minutes and they are going to cut facet >> and mount it in 60???) "Ok, I get the rest of the scam now!" I >> thought to myself. After several "no thankyous" and "we really must >> gos" we got up and I asked for the rest of the mater! >> ial--to which she again balked at me taking with me. I guess I found >> the only "local material" in the whole "mine" and they didn't want it >> to go out the door. They would have to order some more and that >> would be another $.50 in lost profit. I got the material and I got >> another lesson in scamology. >> >> Like you have done-- get plenty of advice as to who is considered >> legit before you stop off at the tourist traps er "shafts". >> >> Elton >> >> Epilogue: If this isn't enough "buyer beware admonishment"...I peaked >> around the curtains, so to speak and saw a pile of fresh dirt from >> the settlement pond,wheelbarrow-sized piles of the quartzite dregs >> from the flue-- aside what looked like a potting table set up for >> filling little cloth bags with..you guessed it, recycled local dirt >> and gravel. My guess is they had a little ole lady there to make sure >> at least one brazilian amythest crystal--too large to overlook, found >> it's way into each little bag. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kadok at infowest.com Fri Mar 10 18:36:51 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Fri Mar 10 18:36:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <4410F6F5.7060209@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <002701c644b4$a749ee00$0200a8c0@kadok> been itching to go out rock hunting and exploring the W. NC mine scene, but I hurt my back a few weeks ago (sciatica), and while it's better, I am not up to an out and out mine experience with heavy lifting and lots of bending and back stress...so I've decided to drag the kids to Spruce Pine to Gem Mountain on Saturday. They claim their buckets are filled with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. Has anyone been there and have any suggestions as to how high one has to go before they are going to get more than common quartz and junk? Jeanne Jeanne, I doubt you'll find anything around Spruce Pine that hasn't been "salted". So you'll get a bunch of filler and junk, and a few better pieces. Margaret ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com Fri Mar 10 18:50:43 2006 From: jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com (Jeanne Rhodes Moen) Date: Fri Mar 10 18:50:49 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <002701c644b4$a749ee00$0200a8c0@kadok> References: <002701c644b4$a749ee00$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <44123B03.1080506@jeanniusdesigns.com> Would emerald hollow in Hiddenite be any better? Jeanne ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Margaret Malm wrote: > been itching to go out rock hunting and exploring the W. NC mine scene, > but I hurt my back a few weeks ago (sciatica), and while it's better, I > am not up to an out and out mine experience with heavy lifting and lots > of bending and back stress...so I've decided to drag the kids to Spruce > Pine to Gem Mountain on Saturday. They claim their buckets are filled > with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from > $15-$120 a bucket. Has anyone been there and have any suggestions as to > how high one has to go before they are going to get more than common > quartz and junk? > > Jeanne > > Jeanne, I doubt you'll find anything around Spruce Pine that hasn't been > "salted". So you'll get a bunch of filler and junk, and a few better pieces. > > Margaret > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Jewelry: www.jeannius.com > > > Family: www.rhodes-moen.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tam2819 at cox.net Fri Mar 10 19:35:46 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Fri Mar 10 19:35:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <44123B03.1080506@jeanniusdesigns.com> References: <002701c644b4$a749ee00$0200a8c0@kadok> <44123B03.1080506@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <82ab46929ab77f46b73e6940dc39f7c0@cox.net> Jeanne, Having been there, and for several days, I love it. I do hope to go back some day. You can either dig, or fill a bucket from an area where mine rubble, after blast, is brought out and piled. There are areas to screen and sort. The girls and you will enjoy it. The mine owner Mike is a nice guy too. Terrie From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Mar 10 20:48:09 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 10 20:48:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <44123B03.1080506@jeanniusdesigns.com> References: <002701c644b4$a749ee00$0200a8c0@kadok> <44123B03.1080506@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <8C812DE2101BB5B-5B8-BC04@mblk-r15.sysops.aol.com> Hi, Definitely not, he tried to buy stuff from me when he first opened. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Jeanne Rhodes Moen To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:50:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? Would emerald hollow in Hiddenite be any better? Jeanne ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Margaret Malm wrote: > been itching to go out rock hunting and exploring the W. NC mine scene, > but I hurt my back a few weeks ago (sciatica), and while it's better, I > am not up to an out and out mine experience with heavy lifting and lots > of bending and back stress...so I've decided to drag the kids to Spruce > Pine to Gem Mountain on Saturday. They claim their buckets are filled > with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from > $15-$120 a bucket. Has anyone been there and have any suggestions as to > how high one has to go before they are going to get more than common > quartz and junk? > > Jeanne > > Jeanne, I doubt you'll find anything around Spruce Pine that hasn't been > "salted". So you'll get a bunch of filler and junk, and a few better pieces. > > Margaret > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Jewelry: www.jeannius.com > > > Family: www.rhodes-moen.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Mar 10 20:54:28 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 10 20:54:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question In-Reply-To: <031120060133.10176.441228E2000D62D1000027C0216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <031120060133.10176.441228E2000D62D1000027C0216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <8C812DF03145C3D-5B8-BC2E@mblk-r15.sysops.aol.com> Hi Pete, I just receieved a new light, courtesy of Mr. Gardner and Mr. Polman, last week, and both lights sit side by side in the lamp housing. So with both lights on, I get to see both minerals. Dave -----Original Message----- From: pjmodreski@att.net To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 01:33:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question Dave, and then, actually, (and now), I wondered about the LW or SW, because the wernerite fluoresces best LW, and the diopside, I think, best SW. But perhaps they both fluoresce enough to notice, under the same light (LW, probably). Pete -------------- Original message from betdav97@aol.com: -------------- > > Pete and Carolyn, > Thankyou for a very prompt response; I realized after I send the e-mail that > I didn't mention long or short wave. I'm glad you knew what I was talking about. > I'll label the specimens appropriately. > Thanks again, > Dave > > Hi Dave, > > There is often diopside associated with the "wernerite", that fluoresces blue; > I'm sure that's what you probably have. > > P.S., as purists will point out (and they'll jump on me if I answer and don't > say this), "wernerite" is not an official mineral name, it is really a variety > name for yellow-fluorescent scapolite. But, furthermore, "scapolite" is itself > not an official mineral species name either, it is considered to be a group > name, for the series between meionite (Ca-rich) and marialite (Na-rich). But > everyone (who collects minerals) knows what everyone else means, when they say > wernerite. You only might get into trouble if exhibiting it in a competitive > display, where one is required to use the proper names. But I had to add this! > > Pete > -------------- Original message from betdav97@aol.com: -------------- > > > > > > Hi Group, > > I recently acquired some Wernerite from Point de Chen, Quebec, Canada. The > > gentleman I got the specimens from only informed me about the Wernerite. Does > > anyone know the name of the mineral that fluoresces blue? I would like to > > properly > > label the specimens. > > Thankyou, > > Dave Phillips > > Sunset Fossils & Minerals > > Morgantown, WV > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Gslrocks at aol.com Fri Mar 10 21:20:31 2006 From: Gslrocks at aol.com (Gslrocks@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 10 21:20:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question Message-ID: the wernerite does better lw but also glows nice sw and mw. It will also phosphoresce after sw exposure. I have some specimens that have baby blue sw (diopside) and under lw 370 there is a royal blue from micro apatites. Greg Lesinski GSLROCKS 4726 Porter Center Rd. Lewiston NY 14092 Fluorescent minerals, ultraviolet lamps and reference books authorized distributor and reseller for Way Too Cool lamps website _www.gslrocks.com_ (http://www.gslrocks.com/) GSLROCKS@AOL.COM 716-754-9729 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Mar 10 21:45:01 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Mar 10 21:43:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wernerite and question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <441263DD.3070402@verizon.net> Gslrocks@aol.com wrote: > the wernerite does better lw but also glows nice sw and mw. It will also > phosphoresce after sw exposure. I have some specimens that have baby blue sw > (diopside) and under lw 370 there is a royal blue from micro apatites. Folks, Oh yes that's right! I remember taking a piece of that under the scanning electron microscope/electron dispersive spectroscope. I saw elements in general proportion to diopside, but also fluorine and chlorine. Puzzled, I turned on the backscatter electron detector, sort of an x-ray machine in reverse that shows denser materials as lighter and less dense materials as darker, and there you could see crisp little hexagons and hexagonally shaped crystals in the matrix. Zooming in the EDS, I ran a scan and saw the chemistry for an apatite with both fluorine and chlorine present. At that time I was being hustled off the SEM, and didn't have a chance to make a photo or print the EDS analysis, and I don't remember whether chlorine or fluorine was dominant. But it was pretty neat to see the tiny apatites (I only had the magnification at 300-600x, so they could be seen with the appropriate light microscope as well) and figure out one of the puzzles of this material. Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Mar 11 11:09:34 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Mar 11 11:09:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amateur Discovers Several New Impact Craters Message-ID: <4413206C.72BE@Tomaszewski.net> I think the discovery of multiple new impact craters on the Earth by an amateur is an event that should not go unnoticed by this list. You can see the story at http://www.astroseti.org/impacts.php Kreigh From geenet2 at mchsi.com Sat Mar 11 14:18:50 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Sat Mar 11 14:26:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? Message-ID: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Does anyone on the list have carpal tunnel problems but still does lapidary and cabbing?? I want to get a cabbing machine someday, but my CTS is flaring up, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to do any cabbing. The orthopedic doctor told me to quit doing anything that aggravates the condition...yeah, right...LOL, I said may as well tie my right hand behind my back because EVERYTHING I enjoy doing, (or have to do) involves my wrist and/or thumb. So he says I'll have to have surgery if I can't accommodate.... Just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this kind of problem and how they did it. Jeanette --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 11 14:27:17 2006 From: edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net (edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net) Date: Sat Mar 11 14:27:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem Mountain Mine in Spruce Pine Message-ID: <20060311222717.YFAE2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Dear Jeanne: I concur with previous comments regarding the "authenticity" of the mine. Actually, at one time it was a working pegmatite mine, but the Schabillion family purchased it, and Robert's daughter Barbara owned it, the last I heard. Most of the slu9ice material is purchased from cheap and Brazilian suppliers. I watched Barbara buying "emeralds" from Pedro at the Grassy Creek Show in 2004. If you are truly interested in active WNC and SE area minesites. log onto . This is the site of Rick Jacquot, who wrote one of the recent guidebooks to the area. Also, he is the president of the Mountain Area Gem and Mineral Associstion (MAGMA), which is the largest independent rock club (350 members) in the Southeast. There is on this site, a list of field trips and photos of what has been found during the last three years of activity.The club is dues free, and has fieldtrips nearly every week. Today they went to Jackson's Crossroads GA, and will go to Diamond Hill Quartz Mine on Sunday. I threw my back out on Wed, then went fluorescent mining Thurs night and made it worse. I can relate to NOT mining with a sore back. Lastly, if you are ever interested in going to the Ray Mine outside of Burnsville NC, eMail me or call 828.272.0550 . The place is child friendly, on National Forest, and is a mine dump covered with feldspar and pegmatite, with a creek. It's my favorite spot, and I always take something interesting home. Sincerely yours, EJW From edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 11 14:37:17 2006 From: edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net (edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net) Date: Sat Mar 11 14:37:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] MapMuse contact Message-ID: <20060311223717.YIGR2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Dear members, I too got the mapmuse contact. I opened it, perused it, and found that the Southern Appalachian Mineral Society, of Asheville and surrounds, was not listed. Well, humpf! This is one of the oldest clubs in the SE United States, 75 years old this month. Nor was MAGMA listed (log on to ). What got my goat was the advertising: singles ads. I'm insulted at the implication that I can't get a date, although I'm usually I'm "romancing the rocks" at various mine sites. Since I belong to two clubs that have enough geological, field trip and computer experience to gain access to whatever info is on the WWW, I see no need to clog my computer with this site. My opinion, which is LOUD and not very humble, is that this is back door SPAM, and as soon as I finish this message, I will unsubscribe to MapMuse. EJW From web_admin at ccfms.ca Sat Mar 11 15:18:02 2006 From: web_admin at ccfms.ca (CCFMS Web Admin) Date: Sat Mar 11 15:17:58 2006 Subject: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact In-Reply-To: AAAAAEjRa+8L8SpCoole52D0wSHExCQA Message-ID: <000001c64562$0b9fee60$35cb3a43@sdouglas> My Spam Killer software just flagged the last email with the subject "MapMuse" as Spam! Either MapMuse have been added as a known spammer, or Edward used enough key words to trigger my Spam Killer. Either way, the original MapMuse email that some of us received was an unsolicited contact and everyone should be wary about those unsubscribe links. It's often easier just to let your Spam Killer or Spam Assasin do the work for you. Stephen Douglas CCFMS Communications Director & Web Admin web_admin@ccfms.ca http://www.ccfms.ca/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:37 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact Dear members, I too got the mapmuse contact. I opened it, perused it, and found that the Southern Appalachian Mineral Society, of Asheville and surrounds, was not listed. Well, humpf! This is one of the oldest clubs in the SE United States, 75 years old this month. Nor was MAGMA listed (log on to ). What got my goat was the advertising: singles ads. I'm insulted at the implication that I can't get a date, although I'm usually I'm "romancing the rocks" at various mine sites. Since I belong to two clubs that have enough geological, field trip and computer experience to gain access to whatever info is on the WWW, I see no need to clog my computer with this site. My opinion, which is LOUD and not very humble, is that this is back door SPAM, and as soon as I finish this message, I will unsubscribe to MapMuse. EJW _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 11 15:25:34 2006 From: edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net (edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net) Date: Sat Mar 11 15:25:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorescent labelling Message-ID: <20060311232533.YTHU2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Dear Members, I recently traded several pounds of fluorescent material with Dino Zack from St.Lawrence Co.NY. Everything each of us sent was documented as to species, location found, and collector. Dino included a list of pictures, colors under SW-LWUV, the exact mine and township, and the mineral. I previously acquired a "sample box" of Quebec fluorescents without the proper labelling, and it is really a mess of unidentified rocks. I'm tempted to toss them out onto the driveway. Altho' we are not, for the most part, chemical analists, it's nice to know the closest identification possible, or have a name that represents a family or stands for an end-series of minerals. I have a large amout of apatite, which took me a lot of research to id as ManganApatite, and even that is a sub-sub-category in the Apatite family. Also, I have hyalite opal from two localities in the Spruce Pine Pegmatite district, but the two different localities have to be included in the ID, due to the differing quality of the species. I feel that anything less would be a source of confusion for serious collectors, and slightly dishonest to the mineral enthusiasts who are interested in fluorescents from the area. (By the Way, if anyone is interested in buying or trading NC fl minerals, just get in touch by eMail.) Sincerely, EJW From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sat Mar 11 15:25:48 2006 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sat Mar 11 15:25:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? Message-ID: <1ff.124ca142.3144b67c@aol.com> Jeanette, I have CTS in both wrists, but the left was the only one that needed surgery. I can still cab and bead and type on the computer with no problems. The only advice I will give you is to take it slow, if you feel the wrist start to hurt, or tingling inn the fingers, back off for a while. I have also used my brace on my left wrist when cabbing, wrapping it in plastic bags to keep it dry. Makes for an interesting picture. Jeff --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tfa at brickengraver.com Sat Mar 11 15:43:21 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Sat Mar 11 15:43:26 2006 Subject: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact In-Reply-To: <000001c64562$0b9fee60$35cb3a43@sdouglas> Message-ID: <003501c64565$95769d70$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Spam not too much a problem with me. I just filter out the ones I do no like. I actually think pretty useful site--albeit a bit too much low class advertising. Its pretty simple to simply delete all messages you do not want on arrival. However do agree that I wish they would divulge their mailing list source. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > CCFMS Web Admin > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 6:18 PM > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Subject: RE: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact > > My Spam Killer software just flagged the last email with the > subject "MapMuse" as Spam! Either MapMuse have been added as > a known spammer, or Edward used enough key words to trigger > my Spam Killer. > > Either way, the original MapMuse email that some of us > received was an unsolicited contact and everyone should be > wary about those unsubscribe links. It's often easier just to > let your Spam Killer or Spam Assasin do the work for you. > > Stephen Douglas > CCFMS Communications Director & Web Admin web_admin@ccfms.ca > http://www.ccfms.ca/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:37 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact > > Dear members, > I too got the mapmuse contact. I opened it, perused it, and > found that the Southern Appalachian Mineral Society, of > Asheville and surrounds, was not listed. Well, humpf! This is > one of the oldest clubs in the SE United States, 75 years old > this month. Nor was MAGMA listed (log on to ). > What got my goat was the advertising: singles ads. I'm > insulted at the implication that I can't get a date, although > I'm usually I'm "romancing the rocks" at various mine sites. > Since I belong to two clubs that have enough geological, > field trip and computer experience to gain access to whatever > info is on the WWW, I see no need to clog my computer with > this site. My opinion, which is LOUD and not very humble, is > that this is back door SPAM, and as soon as I finish this > message, I will unsubscribe to MapMuse. EJW > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Ted at crystalgems.com Sat Mar 11 15:45:09 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Sat Mar 11 15:45:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] MapMuse contact In-Reply-To: <20060311223717.YIGR2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <003b01c64565$83c55940$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> All: I've been reading the emails from the Rockhounds forum about the mapmuse email. Seems like I was missed and I was beginning to feel left out. But wait, maybe my spam filter found it and booted the email before I could see it. Well, I rooted through the lengthy list of blocked email addresses and I couldn't find it. Not that I really expected to since I read check every email sender and subject my spam filter captures. (Absolutely necessary since I found an email from my wife in the captured spam box; after she asked me about it that is.) Anyway, I have my doubts that the email addresses were harvested from Rockhounds. It's possible that I was overlooked during the harvesting; but given the effort Aaron went to prevent harvesting I tend to think of Rockhounds as relatively safe and that it is unlikely. I also do not belong to any other rock related lists or forums. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:37 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] MapMuse contact Dear members, I too got the mapmuse contact. I opened it, perused it, and found that the Southern Appalachian Mineral Society, of Asheville and surrounds, was not listed. Well, humpf! This is one of the oldest clubs in the SE United States, 75 years old this month. Nor was MAGMA listed (log on to ). What got my goat was the advertising: singles ads. I'm insulted at the implication that I can't get a date, although I'm usually I'm "romancing the rocks" at various mine sites. Since I belong to two clubs that have enough geological, field trip and computer experience to gain access to whatever info is on the WWW, I see no need to clog my computer with this site. My opinion, which is LOUD and not very humble, is that this is back door SPAM, and as soon as I finish this message, I will unsubscribe to MapMuse. EJW _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tfa at brickengraver.com Sat Mar 11 16:04:04 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Sat Mar 11 16:04:08 2006 Subject: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact In-Reply-To: <003501c64565$95769d70$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: <003601c64568$7a250680$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> In fact, thank the originator of this for posting the link. I found this to be a pretty useful site as just found three antique shops I did not know about and a quilting shop I had no idea existed. Could actually turn into a very useful site. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Tommy Armstrong > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 6:43 PM > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Subject: RE: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact > > Spam not too much a problem with me. I just filter out the > ones I do no like. I actually think pretty useful > site--albeit a bit too much low class advertising. > > Its pretty simple to simply delete all messages you do not > want on arrival. > However do agree that I wish they would divulge their mailing > list source. > > Tommy Armstrong > PO Box 484 > Lillington, NC 27546 > http://www.brickengraver.com > > The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk > in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the > possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be > onto something is to be in despair. > > Walker Percy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > CCFMS Web > > Admin > > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 6:18 PM > > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > collectors' > > Subject: RE: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact > > > > My Spam Killer software just flagged the last email with > the subject > > "MapMuse" as Spam! Either MapMuse have been added as a > known spammer, > > or Edward used enough key words to trigger my Spam Killer. > > > > Either way, the original MapMuse email that some of us > received was an > > unsolicited contact and everyone should be wary about those > > unsubscribe links. It's often easier just to let your Spam > Killer or > > Spam Assasin do the work for you. > > > > Stephen Douglas > > CCFMS Communications Director & Web Admin web_admin@ccfms.ca > > http://www.ccfms.ca/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > > edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net > > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 5:37 PM > > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: [SPAM][Rockhounds] MapMuse contact > > > > Dear members, > > I too got the mapmuse contact. I opened it, perused it, and > found that > > the Southern Appalachian Mineral Society, of Asheville and > surrounds, > > was not listed. Well, humpf! This is one of the oldest > clubs in the SE > > United States, 75 years old this month. Nor was MAGMA > listed (log on > > to ). > > What got my goat was the advertising: singles ads. I'm > insulted at the > > implication that I can't get a date, although I'm usually I'm > > "romancing the rocks" at various mine sites. > > Since I belong to two clubs that have enough geological, field trip > > and computer experience to gain access to whatever info is > on the WWW, > > I see no need to clog my computer with this site. My > opinion, which is > > LOUD and not very humble, is that this is back door SPAM, > and as soon > > as I finish this message, I will unsubscribe to MapMuse. EJW > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kahako at verizon.net Sat Mar 11 16:20:49 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Mar 11 16:20:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] MapMuse contact In-Reply-To: <003b01c64565$83c55940$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <20060311223717.YIGR2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <003b01c64565$83c55940$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060311141400.03440360@incoming.verizon.net> We too were "left out." The only way we knew about it was from posts to this List. We don't have a Spam Filter, but verizon.net may...I don't know. We found the site marginally useful. Aloha, Kitty (& Bill) At 01:45 PM 3/11/2006, you wrote: >All: >I've been reading the emails from the Rockhounds forum about the mapmuse >email. Seems like I was missed and I was beginning to feel left out. > >I also do not belong to any other rock related lists or forums. > >Ted Kowalski >Fredericksburg, VA USA From kahako at verizon.net Sat Mar 11 16:53:19 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Mar 11 16:53:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? In-Reply-To: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060311142124.034404a8@incoming.verizon.net> I had CTS a few years ago, probably from centering clay on a potter's wheel for ceramics work. Vitamin B 6 (suggested by my neurologist) seemed to help, along with a wrist brace and resting it for a while. Also don't be discouraged by a recent highly publicized report that glucosamine & chondroitin don't work for arthritis/joint/CTS pain. If you read the reports carefully you'll see that they DO work for certain severe problems, and may work for you---and they won't cause harm. Several years ago my veterinarian prescribed them along with MSM for my arthritic dog, and the results were spectacular---and no placebo effect there! She could barely struggle to her feet and walked with a bad limp. She's now 13 years old and still gets Gluco/Chond/MSM every day and can move just fine, and even run. When I told my orthopedists about that, he said that there had been good studies done to show their effectiveness, so at his recommendation, I tried them (Glucosamine HCL 500mg & Chondroitin Sulfate 400mg, 3/day, MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) 1000mg, 2/day). It seemed to help the pain in my arthritic knees as well as the CTS. The CTS has almost completely disappeared. I thought my knees were pretty good too, until recently when I had to stop those supplements for 10 days prior to surgery on my shoulder. After two days my worst knee was so bad I had to use a cane to walk and was gritting my teeth and letting out involuntary yelps of pain throughout the day. Tylenol or aspirin did not help at all. Finally I called my surgeon and he told me I could take Celebrex, which did work just about as well as the Gluco/Chond/MSM combo. But Celebrex is similar to Vioxx and Bextra and has risk of heart attack and stroke, so is not good for long term. I've also heard from a friend that an emu oil cream called Freedom AC is effective, and from another that yoga helps. Can't give first-hand testimony, however. Hope this helps! Aloha, Kitty At 12:18 PM 3/11/2006, you wrote: >Does anyone on the list have carpal tunnel problems but still does >lapidary and cabbing?? I want to get a cabbing machine someday, but my >CTS is flaring up, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to do any cabbing. >The orthopedic doctor told me to quit doing anything that aggravates the >condition...yeah, right...LOL, I said may as well tie my right hand behind >my back because EVERYTHING I enjoy doing, (or have to do) involves my >wrist and/or thumb. So he says I'll have to have surgery if I can't >accommodate.... >Just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this kind of problem >and how they did it. >Jeanette From ki3u at hotmail.com Sat Mar 11 17:04:30 2006 From: ki3u at hotmail.com (Berj N. Ensanian) Date: Sat Mar 11 17:04:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amateur Discovers Several New Impact Craters In-Reply-To: <4413206C.72BE@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Excellent Kreigh! Thanks. Berj >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: [Rockhounds] Amateur Discovers Several New Impact Craters >Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:09:34 -0500 > >I think the discovery of multiple new impact craters on the Earth by an >amateur is an event that should not go unnoticed by this list. You can >see the story at > > http://www.astroseti.org/impacts.php > >Kreigh > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From codeburner at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 17:32:44 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Mar 11 17:32:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20060311142124.034404a8@incoming.verizon.net> References: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <6.2.1.2.0.20060311142124.034404a8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: I've taken Glucosamine and actually am on it right now for my shoulder. It certainly seems to help me. I'm actually taking Glucosamine/MSM 1500 mg twice a day since straight Glucosamine actually seems to cost more. My doctor says it can help and won't hurt anything. Sams Club generally has good prices on it. Last time I took it for an elbow problem I was able to stop taking it after 3 months or so. It does take several days to start working so it isn't a quick acting fix. BK On 3/11/06, Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > I had CTS a few years ago, probably from centering clay on a potter's > wheel > for ceramics work. Vitamin B 6 (suggested by my neurologist) seemed to > help, along with a wrist brace and resting it for a while. Also don't be > discouraged by a recent highly publicized report that glucosamine & > chondroitin don't work for arthritis/joint/CTS pain. If you read the > reports carefully you'll see that they DO work for certain severe > problems, > and may work for you---and they won't cause harm. Several years ago my > veterinarian prescribed them along with MSM for my arthritic dog, and the > results were spectacular---and no placebo effect there! She could barely > struggle to her feet and walked with a bad limp. She's now 13 years old > and still gets Gluco/Chond/MSM every day and can move just fine, and even > run. When I told my orthopedists about that, he said that there had been > good studies done to show their effectiveness, so at his recommendation, I > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kadok at infowest.com Sat Mar 11 17:39:49 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Sat Mar 11 17:39:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, NC...any recommendations? In-Reply-To: <44123B03.1080506@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <000601c64575$da7fb310$0200a8c0@kadok> Would emerald hollow in Hiddenite be any better? Jeanne I doubt it very much, if you're expecting to get anything of gem quality or bigger than "very tiny". Margaret ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Margaret Malm wrote: > been itching to go out rock hunting and exploring the W. NC mine scene, > but I hurt my back a few weeks ago (sciatica), and while it's better, I > am not up to an out and out mine experience with heavy lifting and lots > of bending and back stress...so I've decided to drag the kids to Spruce > Pine to Gem Mountain on Saturday. They claim their buckets are filled > with local material from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from > $15-$120 a bucket. Has anyone been there and have any suggestions as to > how high one has to go before they are going to get more than common > quartz and junk? > > Jeanne > > Jeanne, I doubt you'll find anything around Spruce Pine that hasn't been > "salted". So you'll get a bunch of filler and junk, and a few better pieces. > > Margaret > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Jewelry: www.jeannius.com > > > Family: www.rhodes-moen.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From codeburner at gmail.com Sat Mar 11 17:40:46 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sat Mar 11 17:40:49 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? In-Reply-To: References: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <6.2.1.2.0.20060311142124.034404a8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: One other thing, it is supposed to work by improving joint lubrication so it doesn't seem to be likely to help CTS. Indeed I have a long standing problem with a pinched nerve in my neck (I get Botox for that) and the Glucosamine has no effect at all on it. BK On 3/11/06, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > I've taken Glucosamine and actually am on it right now for my shoulder. It > certainly seems to help me. I'm actually taking Glucosamine/MSM 1500 mg > twice a day since straight Glucosamine actually seems to cost more. My > doctor says it can help and won't hurt anything. Sams Club generally has > good prices on it. Last time I took it for an elbow problem I was able to > stop taking it after 3 months or so. It does take several days to start > working so it isn't a quick acting fix. > > BK > > > On 3/11/06, Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > > > I had CTS a few years ago, probably from centering clay on a potter's > > wheel > > for ceramics work. Vitamin B 6 (suggested by my neurologist) seemed to > > help, along with a wrist brace and resting it for a while. Also don't > > be > > discouraged by a recent highly publicized report that glucosamine & > > chondroitin don't work for arthritis/joint/CTS pain. If you read the > > reports carefully you'll see that they DO work for certain severe > > problems, > > and may work for you---and they won't cause harm. Several years ago my > > veterinarian prescribed them along with MSM for my arthritic dog, and > > the > > results were spectacular---and no placebo effect there! She could > > barely > > struggle to her feet and walked with a bad limp. She's now 13 years old > > and still gets Gluco/Chond/MSM every day and can move just fine, and > > even > > run. When I told my orthopedists about that, he said that there had > > been > > good studies done to show their effectiveness, so at his recommendation, > > I > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jlkelly1066 at iglide.net Sat Mar 11 19:17:31 2006 From: jlkelly1066 at iglide.net (JL Kelly) Date: Sat Mar 11 19:11:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel & Cabbing In-Reply-To: <200603120205.k2C25Fpj001864@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200603120205.k2C25Fpj001864@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <441392CB.1020709@iglide.net> Hi Jeannette, My CT (after surgery) quit acting up when I went to wrist magnets. (I know, some say it is all in my head but I am talking about my wrists) After surgery my left wrist was fine my right was never out of pain and I wore the brace 3 out of every 4 days. (I mean I was in pain!) Tried a simple magnet, as I recall, purchased it at my local Rite-Aid. I'm serious, I have not put that brace back on for one day since. I take it off to shower and if I forget to put it back on and start preparing a meal or working here on the computer it lets me know within minutes that I don't have it on. Consider. Kelly From edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 11 19:18:42 2006 From: edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net (edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net) Date: Sat Mar 11 19:18:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Hollow Message-ID: <20060312031844.WZE2285.ibm58aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Members: There are actually many old minesites in the Spruce Pine District, which encompasses Avery, Mitchell and Yancey Counties, but also includes the Madison, Buncombe and Haywood Counties to the south and west, to which one can visit and collect rocks and minerals. If one is a "Mineral Snob", and wants to walk out into the creekbed or open pit and expects to pick up the big gem grade stone on first try, let me say that it is possible, but very improbable. Emerald Hollow was run and associated with the Ledford family for a number of years, and let me say that my information from the oldtimers in the area has not been good. These guys ran over to Hiddenite to get in on the Emerald craze after Jamie Hill hit the emerald pocket in Alexander County. For reference folks, get out your Road Atlas and look at the State of NC. You will immediately notice how long this state is, and it is divided into distince geographical districts of Coastal plain, piedmont and mountains. Most of the original mining was done in the Mountains, and right there is where the gemstones lie today! Most of the sluice mines use imported materials, and are really tourist traps. Get off the beaten track, Mr and Mrs Rockhounds, and even be careful about going to minesites where you have not been. Anyone with a lick of good sense should do his homework before going out into the field, and probably should find someone who knows the site as a guide. This is why I say, log on to , because the info is there, and you can save yourself a lot of headaches. And, with prop[er guidance, you are more likely to find "The Big One". Sincerely, EJW From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Mar 11 19:55:29 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Mar 11 19:55:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? References: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <44139BAE.ED8@Tomaszewski.net> Jeanette, I used to be bothered after long sessions on the wheels, but I looked at my setup and changed the height of my table (down), and my stool (up), and the problem went away. My change was made so that when the stone was in the neutral position on the wheel, my wrists were straight instead of being slightly bent. BTW, I found my curves on cabs, especially small ones, became more even after the change. HTH. Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > Does anyone on the list have carpal tunnel problems but still does lapidary and cabbing?? I want to get a cabbing machine someday, but my CTS is flaring up, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to do any cabbing. The orthopedic doctor told me to quit doing anything that aggravates the condition...yeah, right...LOL, I said may as well tie my right hand behind my back because EVERYTHING I enjoy doing, (or have to do) involves my wrist and/or thumb. So he says I'll have to have surgery if I can't ac > Just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this kind of problem and how they did it. > Jeanette From tangojuli at yahoo.com Sat Mar 11 20:16:13 2006 From: tangojuli at yahoo.com (tango juli) Date: Sat Mar 11 20:16:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Building Stone in Florence In-Reply-To: <200603100204.k2A24Xf4003992@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20060312041613.70044.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> Carolyn, What a cool topic. Building stone in florence came from a variety of sources and Kreigh's reference to what I always called the LL Bean cathedral (Il Duomo, or Sta Maria del Fiore) is indeed done in pink, green and white marble. This was initially constructed by designs from Giotto and the capella (dome) by Brunelleschi over a century later. Altho I used to give informal tours of FI, I found that I didn't have an immediate answer to your question. I do know that some of the road cobblestone was sanpietrini, or basalt cobbles, but some is brick. One book that was may be helpful for you was The Building of Renaissance Florence : An Economic and Social History (Paperback) by Richard A. Goldthwaite " He does a suberb job of showing the economic development of florence by plotting the ruins of brick kilns around the city--you needed bricks for roads and buildings and couldn't fire those smoke belchers in the city limits, so you could map the development of the city thru the development of brick kilns. He may cover the building stone industry as well. I know that there was a major marble quarry within a day's ride of the city, because Michelango, Giotto, Donatello and the rest used to pop out to the quarry to pick out the marble they'd use for thier sculptures. What is interesting is how did they get it back to florence? :) Interestingly, Brunelleschi had to devise unique contraptions (aka mech engineering) to both bring the dome to fruition--largest dome built since antiquity and to get the marble up there. One way he found of lightening the dome (besides the twin interlocking domes)was using lightweight brick, and tufa. See the small short book "brunelleschi's dome". I've always been a fan of this irascible maverick who brought art, architecture and genius out of the dark ages. One rockhounds related tidbit--I always thought it was so curious that several goldsmiths were in the competition for the baptistry doors to be cast from bronze in 1401. IT was post Black Death and they wanted to celebrate by a design competition for the baptistry doors. Several prominant goldsmiths competed. They had to sculpt releifs--so goldsmiths were trained far beyond jewelry design, at least in Brunelleschi and his archnemesis (whose name escapes me) cases. When B. lost the competition, he went on sabatical with 12 or 14 year old donatello (mmmmm) to Rome to examine the architecture there and hatch a plot to finish the long open crossing at the cathedral in Florence. And the beginning of a groundbreaking career in architecture that changed it forever. Another cool thing to check out was the many varieties of dimension stone used in various chapels such as San Lorenzo and in the Medici crypts. Sometimes they used dozens of different polished stone in an amazing array of colors. Of course there was a stone mason's guild and during the 15th century architecture had taken on a whole new dimension and the guild expanded. There might be some interesting stuff on this if you do a keyword search on stone mason and guild and florence (or tuscany or toscana). Italian websites are also really prolific in their dissection and categorization of building stone. auguri! (good luck!) tina --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tam2819 at cox.net Sat Mar 11 20:27:49 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Sat Mar 11 20:27:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amateur Discovers Several New Impact Craters In-Reply-To: <4413206C.72BE@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4413206C.72BE@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Kreigh, That is an incredible site, and a wonderful discovery. It does need to be shouted from the roof tops. Thank you ever so much for the link. Terrie > http://www.astroseti.org/impacts.php From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sun Mar 12 06:47:53 2006 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Mar 12 06:48:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001501c644ae$182c1be0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> At a local mineral show over the weekend, I bought a couple of specimens new to me labeled "chrysanthemum stones", from "China". They are apparently a black limestone matrix with a gray figure of a chrysanthemum flower exposed on them. The seller had no information at all, and they look to be a fossil of some type. I doubt it was a true flower, but it certainly doesn't look fauna-like either. And I can't imagine an inorganic origin. Google doesn't offer any information. Can someone tell me what exactly these are? Thanks.....Larry From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Sun Mar 12 06:55:22 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Sun Mar 12 06:56:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001501c644ae$182c1be0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <003101c645e4$fd2ca7a0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> I always thought that these things were just porphyry...but i read somewhere that they are celestite crystals in a limestone matrix. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rush" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:47 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > At a local mineral show over the weekend, I bought a couple of specimens > new to me labeled "chrysanthemum stones", from "China". > They are apparently a black limestone matrix with a gray figure of a > chrysanthemum flower exposed on them. The seller had no information at > all, and they look to be a fossil of some type. I doubt it was a true > flower, but it certainly doesn't look fauna-like either. And I can't > imagine an inorganic origin. Google doesn't offer any information. Can > someone tell me what exactly these are? > > Thanks.....Larry > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From betdav97 at aol.com Sun Mar 12 06:56:43 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 12 06:56:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones In-Reply-To: <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> References: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001501c644ae$182c1be0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <8C813FC4FB243AF-1684-D5A7@FWM-R07.sysops.aol.com> Hi Larry, The other mineral is celestite, although I am sure someone can expand on that. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Rush To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 09:47:53 -0500 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones At a local mineral show over the weekend, I bought a couple of specimens new to me labeled "chrysanthemum stones", from "China". They are apparently a black limestone matrix with a gray figure of a chrysanthemum flower exposed on them. The seller had no information at all, and they look to be a fossil of some type. I doubt it was a true flower, but it certainly doesn't look fauna-like either. And I can't imagine an inorganic origin. Google doesn't offer any information. Can someone tell me what exactly these are? Thanks.....Larry _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From getclyde at verizon.net Sun Mar 12 07:17:54 2006 From: getclyde at verizon.net (Clyde) Date: Sun Mar 12 07:18:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001501c644ae$182c1be0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> <8C813FC4FB243AF-1684-D5A7@FWM-R07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000e01c645e8$23a2aa30$6401a8c0@xp> I bought a couple of these over the years, and one came with a copy of a Chrysanthemum Stone article clipped from Lapidary Journal July 1990. Basically the article stated there are two types from China, one as Dave stated is celestite (from Hunan Province), the other is andalusite (found near Beijing). Some of the stone are painted around the 'flower' with a dark color to help contrast the image. In the case of the celestite types, it stated that the 'flower' may be a pseudomorph of calcite after celestite. Clyde ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > Hi Larry, > The other mineral is celestite, although I am sure someone can expand on > that. > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence Rush > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 09:47:53 -0500 > Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > > At a local mineral show over the weekend, I bought a couple of specimens > new to me labeled "chrysanthemum stones", from "China". > They are apparently a black limestone matrix with a gray figure of a > chrysanthemum flower exposed on them. The seller had no information at > all, and they look to be a fossil of some type. I doubt it was a true > flower, but it certainly doesn't look fauna-like either. And I can't > imagine an inorganic origin. Google doesn't offer any information. Can > someone tell me what exactly these are? > > Thanks.....Larry > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Lapidry at aol.com Sun Mar 12 07:22:19 2006 From: Lapidry at aol.com (Lapidry@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 12 07:22:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones Message-ID: <287.6fff26b.314596ab@aol.com> In a message dated 3/12/2006 10:18:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, getclyde@verizon.net writes: I bought a couple of these over the years, and one came with a copy of a Chrysanthemum Stone article clipped from Lapidary Journal July 1990. Basically the article stated there are two types from China, one as Dave stated is celestite (from Hunan Province), the other is andalusite (found near Beijing). Some of the stone are painted around the 'flower' with a dark color to help contrast the image. In the case of the celestite types, it stated that the 'flower' may be a pseudomorph of calcite after celestite. These were also found in California. If I remember correctly, it was the andalusite in California. I have one piece that came from Fred Pough. He said you could stop at the side of the road and just walk a particular creek bed and pick up all you wanted 20-30 years ago. Dan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sun Mar 12 09:31:51 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sun Mar 12 09:31:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <287.6fff26b.314596ab@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c645fa$d9eb87f0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I have also seen something like that on Vancouver Island (a porphyry of some type). The river boulder I found was too large to carry to the car, much less ship 3000 miles home. I saw smaller examples in a museum in Sidney Harbor. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 10:18:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > getclyde@verizon.net writes: > > I bought a couple of these over the years, and one came with a copy of a > Chrysanthemum Stone article clipped from Lapidary Journal July 1990. > Basically the article stated there are two types from China, one as Dave > stated is celestite (from Hunan Province), the other is andalusite (found > near Beijing). Some of the stone are painted around the 'flower' with a > dark > color to help contrast the image. In the case of the celestite types, it > stated that the 'flower' may be a pseudomorph of calcite after celestite. > > > These were also found in California. If I remember correctly, it was the > andalusite in California. I have one piece that came from Fred Pough. He > said > you could stop at the side of the road and just walk a particular creek > bed and > pick up all you wanted 20-30 years ago. > > Dan > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Sun Mar 12 09:38:47 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (Michael Schmidt) Date: Sun Mar 12 09:38:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <287.6fff26b.314596ab@aol.com> <002801c645fa$d9eb87f0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <22ac01c645fb$d15d2c50$6402a8c0@remains> Vancouver Island is a prime source for porphyry...they have some of the nicest material I have ever seen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones >I have also seen something like that on Vancouver Island (a porphyry of >some type). The river boulder I found was too large to carry to the car, >much less ship 3000 miles home. I saw smaller examples in a museum in >Sidney Harbor. > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > >> >> In a message dated 3/12/2006 10:18:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> getclyde@verizon.net writes: >> >> I bought a couple of these over the years, and one came with a copy of a >> Chrysanthemum Stone article clipped from Lapidary Journal July 1990. >> Basically the article stated there are two types from China, one as Dave >> stated is celestite (from Hunan Province), the other is andalusite (found >> near Beijing). Some of the stone are painted around the 'flower' with a >> dark >> color to help contrast the image. In the case of the celestite types, it >> stated that the 'flower' may be a pseudomorph of calcite after >> celestite. >> >> >> These were also found in California. If I remember correctly, it was the >> andalusite in California. I have one piece that came from Fred Pough. He >> said >> you could stop at the side of the road and just walk a particular creek >> bed and >> pick up all you wanted 20-30 years ago. >> >> Dan >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Sun Mar 12 10:21:12 2006 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Sun Mar 12 10:07:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <287.6fff26b.314596ab@aol.com> <002801c645fa$d9eb87f0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <001f01c64601$beb23720$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Alan, The porphory on Vancouver Island has a jumble of andesine (feldspar) crystals in andesite. I find the pattern quite amazing, because many times the large crystals in a phorphry are not as well defined. Here you have rectangular tan to greenish crystals of various sizes patterned like jack straws in a fine dark green matrix. These crystrals formed to this size before being rapidly raised to the surface in the finer matrix. These are not the crysanthemum stones of China which is of different minerals. I have heard the Vancouver material called Chinese writing stone. Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > I have also seen something like that on Vancouver Island (a porphyry of some > type). The river boulder I found was too large to carry to the car, much > less ship 3000 miles home. I saw smaller examples in a museum in Sidney > Harbor. > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > > > > > In a message dated 3/12/2006 10:18:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > getclyde@verizon.net writes: > > > > I bought a couple of these over the years, and one came with a copy of a > > Chrysanthemum Stone article clipped from Lapidary Journal July 1990. > > Basically the article stated there are two types from China, one as Dave > > stated is celestite (from Hunan Province), the other is andalusite (found > > near Beijing). Some of the stone are painted around the 'flower' with a > > dark > > color to help contrast the image. In the case of the celestite types, it > > stated that the 'flower' may be a pseudomorph of calcite after celestite. > > > > > > These were also found in California. If I remember correctly, it was the > > andalusite in California. I have one piece that came from Fred Pough. He > > said > > you could stop at the side of the road and just walk a particular creek > > bed and > > pick up all you wanted 20-30 years ago. > > > > Dan > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From kahako at verizon.net Sun Mar 12 10:16:51 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Mar 12 10:16:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones In-Reply-To: <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> References: <031020060104.21584.4410D0900002023900005450216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001501c644ae$182c1be0$dca6a418@feldsparflash> <000601c645e3$f20fc3d0$28824c0c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060312075206.03382d20@incoming.verizon.net> I have one piece that I got at a rock shop that has a very distinct 20-petal flower pattern. The specimen is about 8cm in diameter with the "flkower" being about 4cm across. The surface is rough---not polished---and the information card with it says: "'Crysanthemum Stone' is a natural formation of celestite & calcite crystals with chert on limestone. Hunan, China. $24." I bought another on-line from John Betts, that is very similar to the other one, with 25 petals, and here is the information he gave: Celestine var. Chrysanthemum Stone - Luxi, Hunan, China. Radiating cluster of gray celestine crystals that was excavated from dark limestone matrix to reveal the crystals in the shape of blooming chrysanthemum flowers. 8 x 6 x 3cm. $28" Finally, Ray Hill has several that are not as clear "flowers" at the URLs below, priced between $7 and $32, with the following description: "...these brown or black stones have white crystal patters suggesting the blooming, autumnal chrysanthemum flower. From China. The Chrysanthemum Stone is composed of dolomite and limestone, with flower-patterened cy\rystals of andalusite, celestite, feldspar, or calcite." http://www.greatsouth.net/p-M261.html http://www.greatsouth.net/chrysanthemum.html Aloha, Kitty (NOTE: I have no connection with either of the dealers mentioned.) At 04:47 AM 3/12/2006, larryrush wrote: >At a local mineral show over the weekend, I bought a couple of specimens >new to me labeled "chrysanthemum stones", from "China". >They are apparently a black limestone matrix with a gray figure of a >chrysanthemum flower exposed on them. The seller had no information at >all, and they look to be a fossil of some type. I doubt it was a true >flower, but it certainly doesn't look fauna-like either. And I can't >imagine an inorganic origin. Google doesn't offer any information. Can >someone tell me what exactly these are? > >Thanks.....Larry From rockhounds at adelphia.net Sun Mar 12 10:24:14 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Sun Mar 12 10:20:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? In-Reply-To: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <000001c64602$2ab769e0$3c261643@KellyHanson> Jeanette My wife had/has problems with the carpal tunnel and I made her quit her job.(typing all day) She loves to cab on our "Pixie" and she uses the wrist brace. She has had no flair ups so far but she paces her self never going more than 2 hours at a time. I hope you can work it out. Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanette Wimpee Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:19 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? Does anyone on the list have carpal tunnel problems but still does lapidary and cabbing?? I want to get a cabbing machine someday, but my CTS is flaring up, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to do any cabbing. The orthopedic doctor told me to quit doing anything that aggravates the condition...yeah, right...LOL, I said may as well tie my right hand behind my back because EVERYTHING I enjoy doing, (or have to do) involves my wrist and/or thumb. So he says I'll have to have surgery if I can't accommodate.... Just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this kind of problem and how they did it. Jeanette --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Sun Mar 12 10:13:49 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Sun Mar 12 10:48:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? References: <000001c6455a$d57dea50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <000001c64605$89caade0$a44fd0c4@privatehome> Hi there, The obvious solution is of course to have an operation on your carpal tunnel. It puts you "out of action" for a couple of days and thereafter you can go on cabbing again. Regards, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette Wimpee" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? Does anyone on the list have carpal tunnel problems but still does lapidary and cabbing?? I want to get a cabbing machine someday, but my CTS is flaring up, and I'm wondering if I'll be able to do any cabbing. The orthopedic doctor told me to quit doing anything that aggravates the condition...yeah, right...LOL, I said may as well tie my right hand behind my back because EVERYTHING I enjoy doing, (or have to do) involves my wrist and/or thumb. So he says I'll have to have surgery if I can't accommodate.... Just wondering if anyone else has had to deal with this kind of problem and how they did it. Jeanette --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sun Mar 12 11:08:35 2006 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 12 11:08:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? Message-ID: <59.37885bfc.3145cbb3@aol.com> The CTS surgery is not 100% towards clearing the problem it. I had mine about 4 years ago and if I overdo it I still get the tingling, cold arm, etc. My Dr. told me that in most cases it is never 100 perfect and that the symptoms are always there. It depends on how long you let the condition go before you have the surgery and how much nerve damage is done, which is something that can never be 100% ascertained before the surgery. My DR. also recommended that at night I still wear the brace so that my wrist will not curl when I am sleeping, which aggravates the condition. Jeff --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sun Mar 12 13:46:06 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sun Mar 12 13:46:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones References: <287.6fff26b.314596ab@aol.com><002801c645fa$d9eb87f0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <001f01c64601$beb23720$dca6a418@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <005701c6461e$5e7336d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I wish I could have found a cantaloupe or grapefruit size porphyry for my garden. I have a small garden dry stream bed in my yard lined with river gravel. I'm right on the southern edge of the earliest glaciations. The gravel pits in central and northern Indiana have some nice decorative boulders. Few interesting glacial boulders are found here. I brought back a half dozen or so from Bancroft, the gravel pit behind the Princess Sodalite mine rock shop had some nice gneiss! (I've always wanted to say that in a non-pun scenario.) Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Reynard" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > Alan, The porphory on Vancouver Island has a jumble of andesine > (feldspar) > crystals in andesite. I find the pattern quite amazing, because many times > the large crystals in a phorphry are not as well defined. Here you have > rectangular tan to greenish crystals of various sizes patterned like jack > straws in a fine dark green matrix. These crystrals formed to this size > before being rapidly raised to the surface in the finer matrix. These are > not the crysanthemum stones of China which is of different minerals. I > have > heard the Vancouver material called Chinese writing stone. > Carolyn Reynard > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Goldstein" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 12:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones > > >> I have also seen something like that on Vancouver Island (a porphyry of > some >> type). The river boulder I found was too large to carry to the car, much >> less ship 3000 miles home. I saw smaller examples in a museum in Sidney >> Harbor. >> >> Alan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 10:22 AM >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones >> >> >> > >> > In a message dated 3/12/2006 10:18:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> > getclyde@verizon.net writes: >> > >> > I bought a couple of these over the years, and one came with a copy of > a >> > Chrysanthemum Stone article clipped from Lapidary Journal July 1990. >> > Basically the article stated there are two types from China, one as >> > Dave >> > stated is celestite (from Hunan Province), the other is andalusite > (found >> > near Beijing). Some of the stone are painted around the 'flower' with a >> > dark >> > color to help contrast the image. In the case of the celestite types, > it >> > stated that the 'flower' may be a pseudomorph of calcite after > celestite. >> > >> > >> > These were also found in California. If I remember correctly, it was >> > the >> > andalusite in California. I have one piece that came from Fred Pough. >> > He >> > said >> > you could stop at the side of the road and just walk a particular creek >> > bed and >> > pick up all you wanted 20-30 years ago. >> > >> > Dan >> > >> > >> > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> > multipart/alternative >> > text/plain (text body -- kept) >> > text/html >> > --- >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> > Subscription Services: >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > List Home Page: >> > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tim at orerockon.com Sun Mar 12 15:11:39 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Mar 12 15:11:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chrysanthemum stones In-Reply-To: <22ac01c645fb$d15d2c50$6402a8c0@remains> References: <287.6fff26b.314596ab@aol.com> <002801c645fa$d9eb87f0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <22ac01c645fb$d15d2c50$6402a8c0@remains> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060312150721.035ea8d8@orerockon.com> I am right now using the Vancouver Island material to make mementos for PGE who had a ceremony to commemorate the relicensing of their Clackamas River dams. The Gov & the bigshots got theirs at the signing, so there is a piece of Vancouver Is. somewhere in the governor's office in Salem (or perhaps it's already in his roundfile lol). I _knew_ there would be a use for the 2 buckets of river rock I drug back from my first trip to the island almost 15 years ago now :) At 09:38 AM 3/12/2006, you wrote: >Vancouver Island is a prime source for porphyry...they have some of >the nicest material I have ever seen Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From OneBirdSinging at aol.com Sun Mar 12 15:14:05 2006 From: OneBirdSinging at aol.com (OneBirdSinging@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 12 15:14:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? Message-ID: <2ca.513b368.3146053d@aol.com> I've got it, but don't let it slow me down... I break out the duct tape & wrap my wrists if necessary. Seem to have more problems with it when not using diamond wheels for cabbing. I guess that's because you don't have to use as much force/pressure against the diamond wheels to cut the rough. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From geenet2 at mchsi.com Sun Mar 12 20:01:23 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Sun Mar 12 20:01:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? References: <2ca.513b368.3146053d@aol.com> Message-ID: <007e01c64652$ccd45d50$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Yowch! Bet it hurts to take the duct tape off! LOL I have wrist splints but they were at home in Alabama and I was in Utah when doing the floors made the CTS flare up. Finished the floors by the grace of Celebrex, Excedrin, and Tylenol 3's. Ceramic tiles, BTW....mostly Silicon and Calcium Carbonate ?? staying OT..... I'm glad to hear from so many people who have CTS and are still happily doing cabbing, etc. Those who have had surgery done, how long did it take to recover enough to get back to rock work? Magnets do work on localized pains, I've used them myself. Love those big sheet magnets, that businesses like to give out for advertizing and such. I used to take MSM and Chrondroitin a long time ago. Couldn't tell it was actually helping what I was taking it for. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? > > I've got it, but don't let it slow me down... > I break out the duct tape & wrap my wrists if necessary. > Seem to have more problems with it when not using diamond wheels > for cabbing. I guess that's because you don't have to use as much > force/pressure against the diamond wheels to cut the rough. From flint...smith at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 13 07:37:35 2006 From: flint...smith at sbcglobal.net (Flint Smith) Date: Mon Mar 13 07:37:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal Tunnel and cabbing?? In-Reply-To: <2ca.513b368.3146053d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20060313153735.83460.qmail@web82308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's more likely to be because diamond wheels stay round. As carbide wheels wear thy get out of round. This causes vibrations that has to be absorbed by your joints. OneBirdSinging@aol.com wrote: I've got it, but don't let it slow me down... I break out the duct tape & wrap my wrists if necessary. Seem to have more problems with it when not using diamond wheels for cabbing. I guess that's because you don't have to use as much force/pressure against the diamond wheels to cut the rough. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 11:12:20 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 13 11:10:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? Message-ID: <4415C414.9050205@verizon.net> Hi all, I did a search and didn't come up with anything definitive except a reference on mineral.galleries.com that fluorrichterite is an approved mineral. Yet in Dana, Handbook of Mineralogy, and Fleischer's there is no reference. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks, Don From carroll4 at mindspring.com Mon Mar 13 11:19:41 2006 From: carroll4 at mindspring.com (carroll4@mindspring.com) Date: Mon Mar 13 11:19:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wanting to do some rockhounding Message-ID: <15167991.1142277581445.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hello all, I know I don't contribute a lot to the list, I am rather new to rockhounding and collecting. At the gentle persuasion of my loving wife, I want to ask this rather knowledgable and well traveled group a question. Where are some good rockhounding/mine scouring places in my area that a complete amature can go? Wanting to restrict my area of rockhounding to North Alabama, south and east Tenn, north and west Georgia. Wife is wanting to make this sort of a mini-vacation and to get away from my work pressures and other stuff. In one of the last 2 emails from the list it listed a web site that listed rock shops and places to go. I did a search for locations in my area and with some research have found that none of them are still in business or accessable. I was dubious when the phone number to two places very near me used an area code that hasn't been used in North Alabama in several years. I appologize for getting long winded and mushy. James From rik.dillen at skynet.be Mon Mar 13 11:54:37 2006 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Mon Mar 13 11:54:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? In-Reply-To: <4415C414.9050205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004901c646d7$f647ee60$853588d9@Rik> Hi Don, There *IS* a reference to fluororichterite in the "Glossary" (version 2004, p. 89). The spelling is now indeed fluorOrichterite. Fluororichterite is an officially recognised mineral species, confirmed during the last updates of the nomenclature amphiboles by the IMA. Grts, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2006 - 6 and 7 May 2006 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of DonH Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 8:12 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? Hi all, I did a search and didn't come up with anything definitive except a reference on mineral.galleries.com that fluorrichterite is an approved mineral. Yet in Dana, Handbook of Mineralogy, and Fleischer's there is no reference. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 12:15:11 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 13 12:13:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? In-Reply-To: <004901c646d7$f647ee60$853588d9@Rik> References: <004901c646d7$f647ee60$853588d9@Rik> Message-ID: <4415D2CF.6080801@verizon.net> Rik Dillen wrote: > Hi Don, > > There *IS* a reference to fluororichterite in the "Glossary" (version 2004, p. 89). > The spelling is now indeed fluorOrichterite. Oh good heavens, I looked right at that page in the Glossary and still missed it. It is misspelled in the database I am editing, and I have been staring at this thing too long. It was approved after 1997 but somehow it didn't make it into some of the current authoritative references. Belgians to the rescue once again. Thanks, Don From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 13 12:15:16 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 13 12:15:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? Message-ID: <031320062015.1702.4415D2D400057A02000006A6216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Don, I just read Rik's post, I was just getting ready to post an email saying the same thing, plus a few more words... Perhaps you're not looking in the most up to date edition of the Glossary of Minerals? The 2004 edition lists fluororichterite (note slightly diff. spelling) as a mineral. Formerly, this was usually referred to as fluorrichterite. I think it was "informally" known as this mineral for a long time, but the official, approved species description apparently was not until 1993, in a Russian journal; this is quoted in the volume by Mandarino published by MR in 1997, "New Minerals 1990-1994". In that volume it is still called fluorrichterite. I was trying to check and confirm when the name was switched from "fluor" to "fluoro", presumably part of the systematization of the nomenclature of amphiboles, but I haven't quite been able to find that. The online copies of "amphibole nomenclature" via the IMA web pages, don't seem to open up right now. Pete -------------- Original message from DonH : -------------- > > Hi all, > > I did a search and didn't come up with anything definitive except a > reference on mineral.galleries.com that fluorrichterite is an approved > mineral. Yet in Dana, Handbook of Mineralogy, and Fleischer's there is > no reference. Can anyone clarify this? > > Thanks, > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 12:27:16 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 13 12:25:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? In-Reply-To: <031320062015.1702.4415D2D400057A02000006A6216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <031320062015.1702.4415D2D400057A02000006A6216037596407059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <4415D5A4.8050402@verizon.net> pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > Don, > > I just read Rik's post, I was just getting ready to post an email saying the same thing, plus a few more words... Thanks for the tip. I made some notes in the database printout and will let the authors decide what to do about it. All the technical data for that entry was for richterite, I noticed. If you happen across some info, that's good, but please don't put yourself out. I need to move on and finish the job. Best, Don From kugeln at msn.com Mon Mar 13 14:21:58 2006 From: kugeln at msn.com (JOHN STOCKWELL) Date: Mon Mar 13 14:22:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wanting to do some rockhounding References: <15167991.1142277581445.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Not long winded and mushy at all! John ----- Original Message ----- From: carroll4@mindspring.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:19 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Wanting to do some rockhounding Hello all, I know I don't contribute a lot to the list, I am rather new to rockhounding and collecting. At the gentle persuasion of my loving wife, I want to ask this rather knowledgable and well traveled group a question. Where are some good rockhounding/mine scouring places in my area that a complete amature can go? Wanting to restrict my area of rockhounding to North Alabama, south and east Tenn, north and west Georgia. Wife is wanting to make this sort of a mini-vacation and to get away from my work pressures and other stuff. In one of the last 2 emails from the list it listed a web site that listed rock shops and places to go. I did a search for locations in my area and with some research have found that none of them are still in business or accessable. I was dubious when the phone number to two places very near me used an area code that hasn't been used in North Alabama in several years. I appologize for getting long winded and mushy. James _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ROCKCURRIER at cs.com Mon Mar 13 14:26:36 2006 From: ROCKCURRIER at cs.com (ROCKCURRIER@cs.com) Date: Mon Mar 13 14:26:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chinese chrysanthemum stone. Message-ID: <71FAB524.6974E23E.3AEB17FB@cs.com> Chinese Chrysanthemum stone: I have made a number of trips to China to buy minerals and on my second or third trip I bought some of the ?Chrysanthemum stones? thinking they might be a good item. There appear to be from at least three localities because of the different type of ?flowers? in the rock. The ones we have sold most of are little star like bursts of what we think are celestite crystals in a gray mudstone or shale. I have not had any of the material x-rayed but in a flame the material gave a nice red flame indicative of strontium. I got interested enough in the things to take a trip out to one of the localities. It was right near the city of Ying He in Hunan state. The operation was quite small, but underground never the less. They were using black powder to blast out chunks of the gray looking rock and though you could see the ?celestite flowers? they were not very distinct. The stone was sold to local artisans, there appeared to be not factory. They work the stone using drill motors and various hand tools. The stone is really way to soft to be a limestone. They finish the stones with sand paper and various polishing agents, some kind of wax? That make the stone darker in relation to the celestite. In the fancier pieces they will work the stone away and have the ?flowers? perched up on little pedestals of stone or work the stone in a honeycomb fashion to make the celestite sprays look like flowers on a bush. These works can range from a lump of mudstone that has had one side finished to show the ?flower? all the way up to things that stand six feet tall. The mine I visited only produced one variety that appeared to be celestite although others may have some calcite. All the ones I have tested with HCl didn?t bubble though. Sometimes they outline the flowers with black ink, and paint the rest of the stone black. I have even seen some that I think were made whole cloth out of cement or plaster of paris. Let the buyer be ware. Rock From tfa at brickengraver.com Mon Mar 13 14:57:59 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Mon Mar 13 14:57:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chinese chrysanthemum stone. In-Reply-To: <71FAB524.6974E23E.3AEB17FB@cs.com> Message-ID: <003701c646f1$939b50d0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> I do have to admit, I love those things--even though they are "processed". Now knowing the process, still does not diminish my appreciation for them. Now if this were done to a "real" mineral specimen, it would of course destroy it for me. Although trimming is completely acceptable. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > ROCKCURRIER@cs.com > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 5:27 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] Chinese chrysanthemum stone. > > Chinese Chrysanthemum stone: > I have made a number of trips to China to buy minerals and on > my second or third trip I bought some of the "Chrysanthemum > stones" thinking they might be a good item. There appear to > be from at least three localities because of the different > type of "flowers" in the rock. The ones we have sold most of > are little star like bursts of what we think are celestite > crystals in a gray mudstone or shale. I have not had any of > the material x-rayed but in a flame the material gave a nice > red flame indicative of strontium. I got interested enough in > the things to take a trip out to one of the localities. It > was right near the city of Ying He in Hunan state. The > operation was quite small, but underground never the less. > They were using black powder to blast out chunks of the gray > looking rock and though you could see the "celestite flowers" > they were not very distinct. The stone was sold to local > artisans, there appeared to be not factory. They work the > stone using drill moto! > rs and various hand tools. The stone is really way to soft > to be a limestone. They finish the stones with sand paper and > various polishing agents, some kind of wax? That make the > stone darker in relation to the celestite. In the fancier > pieces they will work the stone away and have the "flowers" > perched up on little pedestals of stone or work the stone in > a honeycomb fashion to make the celestite sprays look like > flowers on a bush. These works can range from a lump of > mudstone that has had one side finished to show the "flower" > all the way up to things that stand six feet tall. The mine I > visited only produced one variety that appeared to be > celestite although others may have some calcite. All the ones > I have tested with HCl didn't bubble though. Sometimes they > outline the flowers with black ink, and paint the rest of the > stone black. I have even seen some that I think were made > whole cloth out of cement or plaster of paris. Let the buyer be ware. > Rock > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Mar 13 16:26:53 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Mar 13 16:24:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? References: <4415C414.9050205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44160D2E.68E3@Tomaszewski.net> Don, I've got a nice softball sized chunk of it sitting on a shelf across the room that one of the guys in our club picked up in Bancroft (actually he had to split up a volkswagon sized boulder of it, and brought back as much as he could carry out). Mindat says it was approved by the IMA in 1994. Webmineral says it was approved in 1993 and notes the Dana # (66.1.3b.9a) was added. The 2004 Official Mineral List on the IMA's website (a PDF) lists fluorrichterite as approved in 1993 and not discredited. They cite the relevant publication and give the chemical formula. If you want to see the list yourself go to http://www.geo.vu.nl/~ima-cnmmn/IMA-list.pdf I suppose it is possible there was action to discredit it in 2005, but if so I didn't see it on the IMA website. I think you can assume it to be a valid mineral. Kreigh DonH wrote: > > Hi all, > > I did a search and didn't come up with anything definitive except a > reference on mineral.galleries.com that fluorrichterite is an approved > mineral. Yet in Dana, Handbook of Mineralogy, and Fleischer's there is > no reference. Can anyone clarify this? > > Thanks, > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jr50wv at yahoo.com Mon Mar 13 17:31:48 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Mon Mar 13 17:31:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Carpal tunnel Message-ID: <20060314013149.62104.qmail@web34607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi guys: Regarding the glucosamine etc. My boss is a powerlifter athelete, and he recently took this suplement for a joint issue. It worked pretty well for his joints, too. I've been taking it off and on for quite some time, even before I learned of Jerry's experience. He had a regular doctor's appointment, blood sample, etc. His chlorestoral had gone up to 600 mg, with no changes in statins or diet. His Dr told him that it was a rare side-effect of the glucosamine to run cholesterol levels up way high without any other symptoms. So if you're going to take it, (and I do sometimes) do see your Dr regularly to get your fat levels checked out, or you might pop a vein before you're scheduled for the end scene. JR in WV --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From JScully216 at aol.com Mon Mar 13 18:30:30 2006 From: JScully216 at aol.com (JScully216@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:30:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water Message-ID: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up and down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing would not happen. Today, a prize fish died. Who is right, me or the neighbor? John Scully --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Mon Mar 13 18:41:18 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:42:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c64710$c5bd6390$6802a8c0@heathercomp> ask the fish....as long as they're not floating, that is. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:30 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including > some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up > and > down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous > solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing > would not > happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > John Scully > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Mar 13 18:48:52 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:48:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c64711$d4c87180$3591b2d1@TheBlackAdder> You're right. Fluorite is very stable, and only hot concentrated sulfuric acid will dissolve it, giving off HF gas which is very poisonous. It may have been something else in the rocks, or the fish was ready to go to the great pond in the sky anyway. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 6:30 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up and down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing would not happen. Today, a prize fish died. Who is right, me or the neighbor? John Scully --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From smtravis at plateautel.net Mon Mar 13 18:50:32 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:50:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem References: <000401c64269$9b808bd0$3c261643@KellyHanson> Message-ID: <00d501c64712$0ffcb180$259e5a40@marilyn> as some one has probably already told you the ripples are either caused by the blade problems or the feed is not feeding evenly/smoothly you may want to cut a brick this will sharpen your blade and watch it as it feeds through see if you notice any slow downs in the feed since the material is homogeneous and shouldnt bee too tough to cut if your feed rate changes noticeably that is probably your problem or part of it Good luvk Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Hanson" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 9:34 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem >I have not tried that yet but the ripples are very distinct on the slab. I > dropped by the shop in Spokane I mentioned and they said right away the > saw > blade was "cupped". They will try to fix in and I may know by the end of > the > week. No charge if they can not fix it. > Kelly > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jaybates > Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 5:16 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > > Can you borrow another saw blade and try it? 1/16 inch wobble is really > not > much wobble. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kelly Hanson" > To: ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for > rock > and gem collectors'" > Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 7:09 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] 18 Inch saw problem > > >> After I get my saw blade straightened out I will check the rail >> alignment. Thanks for the tip. I hope it is only the saw blade??!!!!! >> Kelly >> > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 18:56:03 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:54:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <441630C3.9070303@verizon.net> JScully216@aol.com wrote: > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including > some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up and > down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous > solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing would not > happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > John Scully Bingham? New Mexico? Maybe soluble amounts of lead and copper and sulfates. Fluorite, along with barite, is one of the most insoluble compounds in nature (in water). If the rock has really been out in the weather, some of those toxic compounds may have begun leaching. As to whether any of that could have been enough to kill a fish so quickly, well, I doubt it, but any opinion is useless at this point without doing quantitative analysis. Either way, I wouldn't show this e-mail to your girlfriend. Good luck with that part of it. best, Don From codeburner at gmail.com Mon Mar 13 18:55:15 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:55:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: Calcium Fluoride is listed as insoluble except in acid solution. I suspect any acid strong enough to dissolve the stuff would have already killed the fish. BK On 3/13/06, JScully216@aol.com wrote: > > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including > some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up > and > down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous > solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing > would not > happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > John Scully > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From bobl at peaktopeak.com Mon Mar 13 18:53:41 2006 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:55:49 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200603140255.k2E2tl2m031150@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi John, I'm not an expert, but as far as I know, the fluorite should be stable and not cause problems for the fish. But, maybe there are other chemicals in your yard rock. Were any of them cleaned/prepared with chemicals that could still be in/on them? What other minerals were in the yard rock? How long did it take for the fish to die? (In other words, how many days had elapsed from the time you put the yard rocks into the pond to the time the fish went belly up?) Regards, Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of JScully216@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 7:31 PM To: rockhounds@onelist.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up and down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing would not happen. Today, a prize fish died. Who is right, me or the neighbor? John Scully --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From smtravis at plateautel.net Mon Mar 13 18:59:50 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Mon Mar 13 18:59:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's References: <030620060508.624.440BC3B20003E18900000270216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net><440D0B5F.2BFF@Tomaszewski.net> <440D0F6D.5060400@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00f001c64713$5c1d90b0$259e5a40@marilyn> Guy's and Ladies Tas I who used the term enhydro for the salt and yes technically speaking there is no enhydro term in agates or salt. However I do know it is water inside. so at least the hydro part is accurate. it is permian sea water. no doubt about that. eve though there has been some scientific question about the age of the bacteria grown from it. but I won't get into that mostly that the experiment has not bee sutibly replacated in an independent lab. any way If you want to call them fluid and gas included permian age salt that is fine with me. I will continue to call them enhydro, potatooo potatto. All the best and all in fun Keep on rockin Steve. ----- Original Message ----- From: "DonH" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Enhydro's > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >> But you raised another question... Now if it is not an 'enhydros', do I >> call it a buhble, or a water inclusion, or is there another term for >> water included in something other than quartz/chalcedony? > > Sorry to be unglamarous, but as far as I know, it would simply be called a > fluid inclusion. Technically speaking, you don't even know it's water. > If there would be gas and liquid, it is a two-phase inclusion; if there is > water, gas, and liquid, it is a three-phase inclusion. > > That sounds like a fantastic specimen. Hope this is useful. > > Don > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Mon Mar 13 19:27:26 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Mar 13 19:25:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c64717$37ddf1f0$0300a8c0@okapi> "Correlation is not causality". GcB .... > > > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > > > John Scully From smtravis at plateautel.net Mon Mar 13 19:39:46 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Mon Mar 13 19:39:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, References: <200603100724.k2A7OsXJ029005@dill.epix.net><002901c6447f$7a6b5e30$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <44122DEC.6020307@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <015d01c64718$f0bc7e70$259e5a40@marilyn> I went to franklin NC and Hiddenite this year I would not recommend hiddenite Maybe if it is not raining and you are willing to dig in red clay you may find some natural material however the buckets I purchased were obviously salted and poorl done even the ground on top of the mine seemed to be littered with green moss adventurene and any green mineral you canmention that is cheap. Franklin however is a much different place yes some of the mines are salted buckets but several are honest I was able to walk around the digging area of one and found two thumbnail sixed rubys in place these were not salted indian rubies. and I am happy to say I even found some very small ones in the bucke I bought and lanned cleaned elsewhere. write me off line and I will try to get you to an honest ruby location. Keep on rockin Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanne Rhodes Moen" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, > something tells me it may be best to buy some of the cheaper buckets w/ > less 'salting' and take my chances. I would rather go dig, but I am just > getting over a bad case of sciatica and with the warm weather this > weekend, was itching to get out somewhere! > > Jeanne > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Jewelry: www.jeannius.com > > > Family: www.rhodes-moen.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Alan Goldstein wrote: >> Sounds to me those "digs" are designed for John Q. Public, not Rock >> Hound. You are really paying for the experience, not the stones. Maybe >> they should put up a sign "Experienced Collectors Not Welcome!" >> >> Alan >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: ; >> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:24 AM >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] going to Gem Mountain in Spruce Pine, >> >> >>> Jeanne wrote: They claim their buckets are filled with local material >>> from up to 10 local mines and prices vary from $15-$120 a bucket. >>> >>> Wellll...repeat caveat emptor 100 times before you go, I'll explain... >>> >>> While I can't speak to this specific site I've been around this type >>> operation in the Smokie Mountain tourist traps to pass them by. While I >>> understand there are some legitimate miners where material from a >>> specific mine is offered via this method to avoid liability issues-- >>> everything I've seen in the area is salted with dreg Brazilian material >>> I wouldn't give away to kids at a rock swap. It is my belief that enough >>> "real" material(far from collecting grade)is included to avoid outright >>> fraud. But other than local recycled dirt this isn't kosher enough to be >>> called local gem material--it ain't local and it ain't gem. One more >>> clue was the fact there was no mica at all in the mix, something every >>> pegmatite I've ever worked has had. >>> >>> Years back I went, owing to the insistence of a visitor. We "panned" for >>> gemstones(rolling eyes). Since I was over my friends shoulder, I did go >>> through her pan and picked out anything that wasn't sandstone/quartzite. >>> There were some small gray corundum hexagonals, some "gernet", some >>> polished turretella agate, tiger eye( must be the legendary North >>> Carolina Lost Tiger-Eye Claim), etc. I must assume was from a tumbler >>> reject pile, etc. and one solitary "ahem" "amaer -thest" crystal with >>> barely enough purple to be "amaer-thest". >>> >>> Relieved that this exercise was over with just one $10 bag of dirt, we >>> picked up and and tried to leave when the "mine worker" insisted that we >>> might have a world class gem and should take it to the "appraiser" >>> inside to have it identified. I insisted that I knew everything in the >>> meager pile of 10-15 pieces and started back to the car when he blocked >>> my path insisting that I had to go thru the apprasiers office to get to >>> the parking lot--(Yeah? Right!) >>> >>> Well, I got waylaid there by one of the staff "GED-trained >>> gemologists"--it was clear I wasn't getting out without hearing the >>> pitch. We were seated at a counter and the gemologist(sic) spread out >>> my friends pile of pickin's. She raked off the pile including the only >>> thing I was interested in--the corundum, and told me it was "wasn't >>> anyhting I'd be interested in", except for the amythest which "was an >>> incredible find and wouldn't it be a wonderful thing to have cut for my >>> "wife's" ring"..yada yada..and they "could cut the stone on premise in >>> about an hour, mount it in a subtile setting and all for $399-$599 >>> depending on the setting or if I wanted tow smaller stones for >>> earrings." (I can't even set up my saw and mark a stone for cutting in >>> less than 30 minutes and they are going to cut facet and mount it in >>> 60???) "Ok, I get the rest of the scam now!" I thought to myself. After >>> several "no thankyous" and "we really must gos" we got up and I asked >>> for the rest of the mater! >>> ial--to which she again balked at me taking with me. I guess I found the >>> only "local material" in the whole "mine" and they didn't want it to go >>> out the door. They would have to order some more and that would be >>> another $.50 in lost profit. I got the material and I got another >>> lesson in scamology. >>> >>> Like you have done-- get plenty of advice as to who is considered legit >>> before you stop off at the tourist traps er "shafts". >>> >>> Elton >>> >>> Epilogue: If this isn't enough "buyer beware admonishment"...I peaked >>> around the curtains, so to speak and saw a pile of fresh dirt from the >>> settlement pond,wheelbarrow-sized piles of the quartzite dregs from the >>> flue-- aside what looked like a potting table set up for filling little >>> cloth bags with..you guessed it, recycled local dirt and gravel. My >>> guess is they had a little ole lady there to make sure at least one >>> brazilian amythest crystal--too large to overlook, found it's way into >>> each little bag. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Mon Mar 13 19:53:09 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Mon Mar 13 19:53:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wanting to do some rockhounding In-Reply-To: <15167991.1142277581445.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I'm surprised no one yet suggested visiting/joining a rock club in your area. Best thing rockhounds can do. You get to meet others and share experiences. Clubs help get access to collecting sites and help in lots of ways. You are in a very rich mineral area, although you didn't mention the name of any town. Coal fossils, Sylacauga marble, iron rich deposits, lots of cool stuff. Good luck and have fun! Glenn in L.A. (Lower Alabama) From: carroll4@mindspring.com Reply-To: carroll4@mindspring.com, "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors"<rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Wanting to do some rockhounding Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 13:19:41 -0600 (GMT-06:00) >Hello all, > >I know I don't contribute a lot to the list, I am rather new to rockhounding and collecting. At the gentle persuasion of my loving wife, I want to ask this rather knowledgable and well traveled group a question. Where are some good rockhounding/mine scouring places in my area that a complete amature can go? Wanting to restrict my area of rockhounding to North Alabama, south and east Tenn, north and west Georgia. Wife is wanting to make this sort of a mini-vacation and to get away from my work pressures and other stuff. > >In one of the last 2 emails from the list it listed a web site that listed rock shops and places to go. I did a search for locations in my area and with some research have found that none of them are still in business or accessable. I was dubious when the phone number to two places very near me used an area code that hasn't been used in North Alabama in several years. > >I appologize for getting long winded and mushy. > >James > > ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Get MSN Messenger with FREE Video Conversation - the next best thing to being there! ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From geenet2 at mchsi.com Mon Mar 13 20:31:06 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Mon Mar 13 20:31:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <006a01c64720$1c407630$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> >From all my years of experience in the "fish" biz, if only one fish dies in a pond it can be from any number of reasons, most of them more likely than the flourite. I can't speak to the exact effects of a chunk of fluorite in the pond tho, probably depends on size of flourite, size of pond, pH of the pond water, etc. My experience tells me that IF it were the flourite, there would be multiple fish deaths starting with the most vulnerable or stressed specimen. If in doubt, take the flourite out. Jeanette Formerly known as "the fish lady" From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 20:50:41 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 13 20:49:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? In-Reply-To: <44160D2E.68E3@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4415C414.9050205@verizon.net> <44160D2E.68E3@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <44164BA1.3070701@verizon.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > I've got a nice softball sized chunk of it sitting on a shelf across the > room that one of the guys in our club picked up in Bancroft Indeed, I've got a piece of that somewhere in my dozens of packed boxes. I saw a lot of the info you saw, but I still found nothing I would call definitive explaining why certain things appeared in the entry I had in front of me. I think someone was confused, and once Rik pointed out the spelling mistake, I realized that someone had taken a lot of data for richterite and entered it there. I marked up the proof page with a summary of the info gathered from the Rockhounds list and moved on. I'm finishing up the G's now. Thanks Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Mar 13 21:03:19 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Mar 13 21:03:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> <006a01c64720$1c407630$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <44164E87.1514@Tomaszewski.net> I keep fish. My biggest problem is the 'alpha' fish, that tends to make any smaller fish dissappear, or turn up floating upside down. Fish are very territorial. I've got many specimens in the tank, but only the sulfates/sulphites have ever had an influence on the fish (I have not tried borates, arsenites, phosphates, etc.). Fluorite has never been a problem, nor has any silicate. Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > >From all my years of experience in the "fish" biz, if only one fish dies in > a pond it can be from any number of reasons, most of them more likely than > the flourite. I can't speak to the exact effects of a chunk of fluorite in > the pond tho, probably depends on size of flourite, size of pond, pH of the > pond water, etc. My experience tells me that IF it were the flourite, there > would be multiple fish deaths starting with the most vulnerable or stressed > specimen. If in doubt, take the flourite out. > Jeanette > Formerly known as "the fish lady" > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Mar 13 21:43:00 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Mar 13 21:41:23 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <44164E87.1514@Tomaszewski.net> References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> <006a01c64720$1c407630$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <44164E87.1514@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <441657E4.5020600@verizon.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > I keep fish. My biggest problem is the 'alpha' fish, that tends to make > any smaller fish dissappear, or turn up floating upside down. Fish are > very territorial. I've got many specimens in the tank, but only the > sulfates/sulphites have ever had an influence on the fish (I have not > tried borates, arsenites, phosphates, etc.). Fluorite has never been a > problem, nor has any silicate. Interesting--sounds like a page for your home site, "Aquarium Rocks: Tank Safety". Try putting some hanksite, halite, or sylvite in there and see what happens. Pickled fish? Don From minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 02:55:06 2006 From: minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com (minnesota_pebble_pup) Date: Tue Mar 14 02:55:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <005401c64374$176414a0$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <20060314105506.60262.qmail@web32603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- EUGENE HARTSTEIN wrote: > Check the regulations for your state before you > collect. Yep. And all that you said sounds about the same as what I knew. Thank you. Jonna - Minnesota __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 03:07:01 2006 From: minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com (minnesota_pebble_pup) Date: Tue Mar 14 03:07:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <035801c64384$2e023b00$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <20060314110701.24296.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- michael wrote: > Most countries have export laws concerning fossils. > USA doesn;t. Canada > does...you need permits. China does- they are all > illegal. As are fossils > from Argentina. With Moroccan fossils (essentially > just vertebrates) you > need permits....my last one cost me $500. what does > that tell you? It's interesting that one can see so much material from other countries for sale online with all the laws against it leaving the countries it comes from. Makes a person wonder. Jonna - Minnesota __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 03:45:15 2006 From: minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com (minnesota_pebble_pup) Date: Tue Mar 14 03:45:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <8e88dea622aa9f6bd09f1f39ac10c6c3@cox.net> Message-ID: <20060314114515.52711.qmail@web32607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Teresa Masters wrote: I am a long time amateur Rockhound. Ditto for me. > This in total, I found to be a wonderful wholesome > activity, and > frequently promoted the activity to other families. Me too. Gets the kids off the dang couch! > I have not enjoyed this pleasure in some time now, > why? Let me give you > only two of many similar episodes. I know there are people out there who take advantage and ruin the hunting spots for others. After reading of your experiances I have to say that if I had been there I would have been very uncomfortable with the situation. It comes down to respect if you think about it. Respect for the ones who gave permission to rockhound a site, respect for one's peers whom one is rockhounding with on the outing, and respect for rockhounding in general. >"Preserve the land for our children" I think the lands are uh 'preserved' when it's convienient for the government. And sold off the same way. I know that any public lands being sold off as is once again a debate certainly isn't going to preserve anything for my children or my grandson. They'll never even get to see it! Or ROCKHOUND with granny on it. (on topic here, ROCKHOUNDING with granny... that's me) > Next, there is a spectacular find by an amateur, ah > ha! Amateurs should > not have such value, it belongs to the people. If amateurs have no value even though they are more abundantly out there and able to spot a spectacular find, then the big guys need to spend a billion or three dollars on paying professional amateurs to go out there and collect the stuff. And then another few billion to get all the stuff OUT OF THE MUSEUM BASEMENTS so my grandson can see them. It shouldn't be a problem, our government is very good at spending money on all kinds of questionable things. > Seems they got a girl child on a beach with a shell > some time back > right here in California. > Unreal. A shell? Isn't that what people pick up when they walk the beaches? Jonna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Tue Mar 14 05:21:07 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Tue Mar 14 05:21:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: "craters" everywhere! Message-ID: <000b01c6476a$27c6e710$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> ----- Original Message ----- From: Armando Afonso To: meteorite-list-bounces@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 2:11 AM Subject: "craters" everywhere! no comments. AA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/jpeg --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 07:42:20 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Tue Mar 14 07:42:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <441630C3.9070303@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060314154220.64907.qmail@web34314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Actually, fluorite is 10X more soluble than barite, and about the same as calcite. All are quite low, though: 0.0016 parts per hundred at 18 deg. C. This is unlikely to be a problem. Most aquarium rocks are quartz or glass- solubility too low to measure. Jim Daly --- DonH wrote: > JScully216@aol.com wrote: > > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock > from Bingham including > > some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. > A neighbor swore up and > > down that the fluorite would kill the fish by > dissolving into poisonous > > solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very > stable and such a thing would not > > happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > > > John Scully > > > Bingham? New Mexico? Maybe soluble amounts of lead > and copper and > sulfates. Fluorite, along with barite, is one of > the most insoluble > compounds in nature (in water). If the rock has > really been out in the > weather, some of those toxic compounds may have > begun leaching. As to > whether any of that could have been enough to kill a > fish so quickly, > well, I doubt it, but any opinion is useless at this > point without doing > quantitative analysis. > > Either way, I wouldn't show this e-mail to your > girlfriend. Good luck > with that part of it. > > best, > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 07:48:31 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Tue Mar 14 07:48:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <000d01c64711$d4c87180$3591b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <20060314154831.60053.qmail@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If only one fish died, it's unlikely to be due to a contaminant in the water. That would kill them all. It sounds like this is an outdoor pond. If so, contamination would more likely come from something airborne, rather than what little might dissolve from a piece of fluorite. Jim Daly --- Erich Kern wrote: > > You're right. Fluorite is very stable, and only hot > concentrated sulfuric acid will > dissolve it, giving off HF gas which is very > poisonous. > > It may have been something else in the rocks, or the > fish was ready to go to the great > pond in the sky anyway. > > Erich > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 6:30 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects > of fluorite in water > > > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock > from Bingham including > some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. > A neighbor swore up and > down that the fluorite would kill the fish by > dissolving into poisonous > solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very > stable and such a thing would not > happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > John Scully > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From libawc at emory.edu Tue Mar 14 08:10:56 2006 From: libawc at emory.edu (Anita D. Westlake) Date: Tue Mar 14 08:11:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? In-Reply-To: <4415C414.9050205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <009e01c64781$e17bfb70$14bf8caa@genlibad.library.emory.edu> I just saw this at a rock and gem show this weekend. It was spelled: "Fluorrichtorite" Anita -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of DonH Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 2:12 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] who knows status of fluorrichterite? Hi all, I did a search and didn't come up with anything definitive except a reference on mineral.galleries.com that fluorrichterite is an approved mineral. Yet in Dana, Handbook of Mineralogy, and Fleischer's there is no reference. Can anyone clarify this? Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gkoshman at sasktel.net Tue Mar 14 08:38:19 2006 From: gkoshman at sasktel.net (Gerry Koshman) Date: Tue Mar 14 08:37:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Looking for information Message-ID: <000901c64785$b3e464f0$d9e2a3ce@userq8p3k9g7xy> Good morning, Our Rock Club has just received a notice from our City Hall informing us that all City facilities will have to pay their own way from now on and our rent free status for our workshop will come to an end. To put this into proper perspective, the space that we occupy is in the basement of our Old City Hall that is now used totally by craft groups and are the old public washrooms which our Club members renovated at our own expense. We are fortunate to have a very well equipped shop as over the years we have fund raised and obtained partial grants for the purchase of equipment etc. The problem we have now is that our membership has dwindled to the point that even a small rent charge will force us to close down the shop and if that happens all of our assets belong to the City because they were paid for in part by grants. What I am looking for is an indication of what other groups are paying if they are using public facilities as I am meeting with the City tomorrow to discuss our fate. Thankyou for all your help. Gerry Mid_pro Rock & Gem Society Prince Albert , SK Canada --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Mar 14 09:11:23 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Mar 14 09:09:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Looking for information In-Reply-To: <000901c64785$b3e464f0$d9e2a3ce@userq8p3k9g7xy> References: <000901c64785$b3e464f0$d9e2a3ce@userq8p3k9g7xy> Message-ID: <4416F93B.9050405@verizon.net> Gerry Koshman wrote: > Good morning, > > Our Rock Club has just received a notice from our City Hall informing us > that all City facilities will have to pay their own way from now on and > our rent free status for our workshop will come to an end. Sorry to hear that. All I can tell you is that my old club was recently forced out of the public school where they had met for over 50 years because the school was going to start charging for meeting space. I think this is a trend. These spaces are provided by taxpayer funds, but that reasoning doesn't seem hold water any longer. They will tell you they are strapped for cash. When politicians go to these national governor's and mayor's conventions, I think that's what they talk about... "Hey, I blew this year's budget by putting cameras on stop lights, how can I get that money back?" "Well I have an idea...." Good luck, Don From zebulon at isr.umich.edu Tue Mar 14 09:17:07 2006 From: zebulon at isr.umich.edu (Peter Sparks) Date: Tue Mar 14 09:20:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Looking for information Message-ID: <6F651C1505A4A048923BCF2D756A7E49D9AAAE@isr-mail2.ad.isr.umich.edu> The club I'm with was charged $1/head for the meeting space at a local church, but that was changed in recent years to free. Instead we donate an appropriate amount of money to them. The per person amount worked out well because it scaled to the size of the club. -- Peter zebulon@isr.umich.ed -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Koshman Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:38 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Looking for information What I am looking for is an indication of what other groups are paying if they are using public facilities as I am meeting with the City tomorrow to discuss our fate. From pnielsen at keene.edu Tue Mar 14 11:14:58 2006 From: pnielsen at keene.edu (Nielsen, Peter) Date: Tue Mar 14 11:15:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mine Dump access, CIR district, IL Message-ID: The Geology Department at Keene State College is running its 17th annual post commencement field trip. This year we have scheduled May 10-24. The bulk of the trip is set (parts of MD, VA, WV, and KY examining the South Central Appalachians. We anticipate being in the Marion, KY area on /around May 20/21. Does anyone on the list have contacts that we might connect with for permission to access mine dumps in the Cave in Rock Mining District? Here in New England, we have many excellent opportunities to study and collect igneous and metamorphic suites, but would love to have an opportunity to visit / collect Mississippi Valley type sulfide/fluorite/barite material. Pete Peter A. Nielsen Professor and Chair Department of Geology Keene State College MS2001 229 Main Street Keene, NH 03435-2001 Office 603.358.2553 fax 603.358.2897 From rocknate at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 12:08:01 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Tue Mar 14 12:08:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mine Dump access, CIR district, IL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Peter, Contact Alan Goldstein Alan is leading a collecting trip in the Marion area the first weekend in April that I will be going on with 3 other members of the Boston Mineral Club. I'm sure that Alan will give you the names of his local contacts in KY. On the other side of the river in IL the mine owners are not as accomodating but here again Alan can tell you who to contact. Good luck with your planning and let the rockhounds list know how the trip goes. best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 3/14/06, Nielsen, Peter wrote: > > The Geology Department at Keene State College is running its 17th annual > post commencement field trip. This year we have scheduled May 10-24. > The bulk of the trip is set (parts of MD, VA, WV, and KY examining the > South Central Appalachians. We anticipate being in the Marion, KY area > on /around May 20/21. > > Does anyone on the list have contacts that we might connect with for > permission to access mine dumps in the Cave in Rock Mining District? > Here in New England, we have many excellent opportunities to study and > collect igneous and metamorphic suites, but would love to have an > opportunity to visit / collect Mississippi Valley type > sulfide/fluorite/barite material. > > Pete > > Peter A. Nielsen > Professor and Chair > Department of Geology > Keene State College MS2001 > 229 Main Street > Keene, NH 03435-2001 > Office 603.358.2553 > fax 603.358.2897 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rik.dillen at skynet.be Tue Mar 14 12:27:55 2006 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Tue Mar 14 12:28:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <005601c647a5$c6f3cc00$853588d9@Rik> John, don't be afraid... it is certainly not the piece of fluorite that could possibly have killed the fish (unless you throw it on its head). First of all, calciumfluoride is only very, very slightly soluble in water, and even much less so from a massive piece (unless very severely weathered). Furthermore, the "dissolution" (if any) proceeds so slowly, that any significant (measurable by very sophisticated and sensitive methods) concentration increase in the surrounding water would probably take a few hundred years at normal ambient temperature. I even doubt that you would be able to measure any difference at all compared to the normal background concentration of the water. I will even go a step further : probably the natural water is saturated already with fluoride ions (which is the case at the sub-ppm level for fluoride ions in a Ca-rich environment, which natural water is as such), and in that case the dissolution reaction is nearly completely stopped, and no more fluorite will be dissolved at all. As the water contains already a large excess of calcium ions, also that fact will push back the dissolution reaction to almost nihil. Furthermore, it's only fluoride- and calcium ions that go into solution, and up to a limited quantity some fluoride in the water is not harmful for any living creatures, including fish. The concentration will be many orders of magnitude less than what is present in the toothpaste you use daily, and the form is an innocent salt, ionized into harmless ions in a pH-neutral environment. Do not confuse fluoride ions with free hydrofluoric acid... that's a different pair of sleeves... BUT... the danger can be in accessory minerals that dissolve much more quickly, such as sulphides etc. All the above is valid only for a piece of pure, massive, crystalline fluorite. Grts, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2006 - 6 and 7 May 2006 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of JScully216@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:31 AM To: rockhounds@onelist.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up and down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing would not happen. Today, a prize fish died. Who is right, me or the neighbor? John Scully From tam2819 at cox.net Mon Mar 13 13:54:19 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Tue Mar 14 12:57:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock and Mineral Books Message-ID: <58ee2d4d94cc49e2453d6e3156ae7da0@cox.net> I am aware of recent searches for older Field Trip publications. I am beginning to reduce my book inventory. Many of what I will be selling are rather old, some bought new, others by rock and mineral clubs selling down their libraries. The following are $5.00 each, all are well used, please add $2.00 postage. Gem Trail of Arizona, third revised edition 1972 Bessie W. Simpson California Gem Trails third revised edition 1957 Darold J. Henry California-Nevada Gem Hunters Atlas 5th printing 1959 H. Cyril Johnson Gem Hunters Atlas Northwest 1960 H. Cyril Johnson Gem Hunters Atlas Southwest 4th edition 1960 H. Cyril Johnson Gem Trails of Texas 4th revised edition Bessie W. Simpson Utah Gem Trails 2nd revised edition Bessie W. Simpson The following are by Richard M. Pearl The Collector's Encyclopedia Gems Minerals Crystals and Ores, 1977 Fair condition paperback $10.00 How to Know The Minerals and Rocks 1955 Second Printing Hard Back Fair Condition $15.00 Colorado Gem Trails and Mineral Guide 1972 Third Revised Edition Hard Back Fair condition $15.00 The Art of Gem Cutting Dr. H. C. Dake Third Printing 1945 $10.00 Rocks and Minerals Revised Edition 1956 Paperback Fair condition $10.00 Other titles, Minerals, Their identification, Uses, and how to Collect Them, Herbert S. Zim and Elizabeth K. Cooper 1943 Good condition, Hard back $10.00 Handbook of Crystal and Mineral Collection, William B. Sanborn 1966 Paperback $5.00 Dana's Minerals and how to study them Third Edition 1962 paperback Fair Condition $20.00 Please contact me directly. Terrie From pjmodreski at att.net Tue Mar 14 15:11:50 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Tue Mar 14 15:11:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water Message-ID: <031420062311.13808.44174DB5000E67D0000035F0216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> I'd thought of trying to add some insight (?) to the discussion of fluorite in water, but wanted to check some facts about it. I was curious myself as to how much fluoride really would be in water in contact with fluorite. Here's what I found. For this type of calculation one uses the "solubility product constant", Ksp, and this parameter for fluorite is 4.0 x 10(-11) * . The calculation (pretty simple) says that the concentration of fluoride ion in water in equilibrium with fluorite (i.e., assuming it has time to reach equilibrium) is 4.3 x 10(-4) moles/liter, which is equal to 8.2 mg/liter. It might take a while for water to reach equilibrium with fluorite, especially if the fluorite were in the form of large crystals, as opposed to a powder. (* I'm writing this to mean 4.0 times 10 to the (-11) power. Interestingly, different "seemingly authoritative" sources on different web sites, gave values for this constant ranging from 3.45 x 10(-11) to 3.6 x 10(-8), which is a difference of 3 orders of magnitude. A good lesson about how you have to beware of what you look up on the internet! Several sources seemed to agree on the 4 x 10(-11) figure, so that's what I used.) Now, something to compare to that figure of 8.2 mg/liter so we know what meaning it has: 1.0 mg/liter = desired target level for adding fluoride to municipal drinking water 1.5 mg/liter = maximum fluoride content allowed in drinking water in the U.K. 2.0 mg/liter = fluoride content at which dark staining of teeth can occur 4.0 mg/liter = maximum level allowed in drinking water in U.S. by EPA For comparison with natural water, most fresh water is said to typically have less than 1 mg/liter fluoride, often typically around 0.1 to 0.5 mg/liter; that's why adding fluoride to strengthen teeth is recommended in most areas. I found a website giving a map and data for fluoride content of well waters in Kentucky, a state which is known to have some fluorite occurrences in its sedimentary rocks, and might be expected to have some wells with fairly high fluoride content. [The site is a pdf file so it's hard to give the url; look up "ground-water Kentucky fluoride".] The median values in the Kentucky well waters ranged between 0.10-0.20 mg/liter. A few wells in the state tested higher than 4 mg/liter; most (not all) of these were in the northwest part of the state, along the Ohio River. According to the report, the highest value found was 78 ppm [that's pretty high, probably would not be safe to drink]. So to summarize; the fluoride concentration that would eventually be reached for water in equilibrium with fluorite, should be 8.2 mg/liter, which is twice the EPA maximum safe level for humans. Perhaps this might harm fish, but I suspect it would be a long-term problem, not something that would have any immediate effect. As others have noted, the Bingham, NM fluorite has a lot of other associated minerals, and it's possible that some of these might be more toxic than the fluorite; or, the fish death might have been coincidental. The Bingham fluorite is associated with quartz (inert), barite (very insoluble), galena (hmmm, though also pretty insoluble), other secondary lead minerals often present on the galena, including anglesite and cerussite (more of a concern?), and various other copper-lead-zinc minerals, if any blue-green minerals are present in the rocks (linarite, brochantite, aurichalcite, cyanotrichite, and so on). A typical situation when it comes to geology; it's very hard to say for sure what's really going on! Pete Modreski -------------- Original message from "Rik Dillen" : -------------- > John, don't be afraid... it is certainly not the piece of fluorite that could > possibly have killed the fish (unless you > throw it on its head). > First of all, calciumfluoride is only very, very slightly soluble in water, and > even much less so from a massive piece > (unless very severely weathered). Furthermore, the "dissolution" (if any) > proceeds so slowly, that any significant > (measurable by very sophisticated and sensitive methods) concentration increase > in the surrounding water would probably > take a few hundred years at normal ambient temperature. I even doubt that you > would be able to measure any difference at > all compared to the normal background concentration of the water. I will even go > a step further : probably the natural > water is saturated already with fluoride ions (which is the case at the sub-ppm > level for fluoride ions in a Ca-rich > environment, which natural water is as such), and in that case the dissolution > reaction is nearly completely stopped, > and no more fluorite will be dissolved at all. As the water contains already a > large excess of calcium ions, also that > fact will push back the dissolution reaction to almost nihil. > > Furthermore, it's only fluoride- and calcium ions that go into solution, and up > to a limited quantity some fluoride in > the water is not harmful for any living creatures, including fish. The > concentration will be many orders of magnitude > less than what is present in the toothpaste you use daily, and the form is an > innocent salt, ionized into harmless ions > in a pH-neutral environment. Do not confuse fluoride ions with free hydrofluoric > acid... that's a different pair of > sleeves... > > BUT... the danger can be in accessory minerals that dissolve much more quickly, > such as sulphides etc. All the above is > valid only for a piece of pure, massive, crystalline fluorite. > > Grts, > > Rik DILLEN > Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium > E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > >>> Belgian minerals > >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! > >>> Exchange list > > MINERANT 2006 - 6 and 7 May 2006 > Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) > Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen > http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of JScully216@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:31 AM > To: rockhounds@onelist.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water > > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham including > some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. A neighbor swore up and > down that the fluorite would kill the fish by dissolving into poisonous > solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is very stable and such a thing would > not > happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > John Scully > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Tue Mar 14 15:17:22 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Tue Mar 14 15:17:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <005601c647a5$c6f3cc00$853588d9@Rik> Message-ID: <003f01c647bd$737b2880$6400a8c0@hppav> On the other hand none of the other fish will have any dental problems from now on. Gene Hartstein From geenet2 at mchsi.com Tue Mar 14 15:53:45 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Tue Mar 14 15:53:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com><006a01c64720$1c407630$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <44164E87.1514@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000b01c647c2$881df510$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Kreigh, that's the problem with any fish put into a smaller "captive" environment called an aquarium. They are all territorial little beasts. Some more than others. Sounds like you either have African Cichlids or Gouramis. Wait long enough and the population will dwindle down to one of two alphas and maybe a few very elusive fish of a different strata. I once obtained a nice looking red striped rock from Arizona and I put it in one of my aquariums. Within a week all the fish were distressed and dying. I did tests and treated for all sorts of things to no avail. Took me weeks and several purchases of fish to decide to take out all the rocks and decorations in the tank. The dying stopped for a while...until I put the Arizona rock back in. After talking to several people it was suggested that a red striped rock from Arizona may contain Arsenate salts which would poison the fish. I never used that rock again in my aquariums. It's outside lining one of my fish ponds tho. If you ever need any fishy advice, I know a lot more about fish and aquariums than I do rocks! Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water >I keep fish. My biggest problem is the 'alpha' fish, that tends to make > any smaller fish dissappear, or turn up floating upside down. Fish are > very territorial. I've got many specimens in the tank, but only the > sulfates/sulphites have ever had an influence on the fish (I have not > tried borates, arsenites, phosphates, etc.). Fluorite has never been a > problem, nor has any silicate. > > Kreigh > > > > Jeanette Wimpee wrote: >> >> >From all my years of experience in the "fish" biz, if only one fish dies >> >in >> a pond it can be from any number of reasons, most of them more likely >> than >> the flourite. I can't speak to the exact effects of a chunk of fluorite >> in >> the pond tho, probably depends on size of flourite, size of pond, pH of >> the >> pond water, etc. My experience tells me that IF it were the flourite, >> there >> would be multiple fish deaths starting with the most vulnerable or >> stressed >> specimen. If in doubt, take the flourite out. >> Jeanette >> Formerly known as "the fish lady" >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tfa at brickengraver.com Tue Mar 14 16:03:03 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Tue Mar 14 16:02:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <031420062311.13808.44174DB5000E67D0000035F0216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <002c01c647c3$d5289800$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Excellent info. I was too going to make sure of a few facts before posting, but the idea that Fluoride is not very toxic is just plain wrong. And as a water treatment superintendent one is constantly made aware of this in the fact that one has to test for it at least once daily and submit reports to the Water Supply section weekly. The actual mcl, or maximum contaminant level is indeed 4.0 mg/liter but the real mcl is effectively 2.0 mgl/liter. Anything above 1.0 mg/liter is essentially wasted as there are no appreciable public health benefits above 1.0 and really great harm above 2.0. We fluoridated with hydro fluorosilicic acid --a liquid but many use NaF2 or Sodium Fluoride--much more soluble than Calcium Fluoride. But as Pete says, the equilibrium would be 8.3 mg/Liter. Values that high in a public water supply would necessitate the complete flushing of a water system and the firing of the ORC--a major investigation--public notice, and god knows what else. Of all the things we as water plant operators worry about most are bacteria and virus contamination, and the level of fluoride we are adding to the supply. It is a really a pretty safe operation as there are multiple safeguards to prevent overfeeding. On a water operator exam , there are always at least 5-8 questions about fluoride--because of the danger that it can do if the operator screws up. An easy way to really determine the concentration is to take a sample to a water treatment plant that treats their water. It is a simple 3 minute test is accurate to .01 mg/liter. Although I have a great deal of admiration of Rik, his statement that "Furthermore, it's only fluoride- and calcium ions that go into > > solution, and up to a limited quantity some fluoride in the > water is > > not harmful for any living creatures, including fish. Is really wrong. This would make a great project for a fish person in a controlled aquarium. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > pjmodreski@att.net > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:12 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of > fluorite in water > > I'd thought of trying to add some insight (?) to the > discussion of fluorite in water, but wanted to check some > facts about it. I was curious myself as to how much fluoride > really would be in water in contact with fluorite. > > Here's what I found. For this type of calculation one uses > the "solubility product constant", Ksp, and this parameter > for fluorite is 4.0 x 10(-11) * . The calculation (pretty > simple) says that the concentration of fluoride ion in water > in equilibrium with fluorite (i.e., assuming it has time to > reach equilibrium) is > 4.3 x 10(-4) moles/liter, which is equal to 8.2 mg/liter. It > might take a while for water to reach equilibrium with > fluorite, especially if the fluorite were in the form of > large crystals, as opposed to a powder. > > (* I'm writing this to mean 4.0 times 10 to the (-11) power. > Interestingly, different "seemingly authoritative" sources on > different web sites, gave values for this constant ranging > from 3.45 x 10(-11) to 3.6 x 10(-8), which is a difference of > 3 orders of magnitude. A good lesson about how you have to > beware of what you look up on the internet! Several sources > seemed to agree on the 4 x 10(-11) figure, so that's what I used.) > > Now, something to compare to that figure of 8.2 mg/liter so > we know what meaning it has: > > 1.0 mg/liter = desired target level for adding fluoride to > municipal drinking water > 1.5 mg/liter = maximum fluoride content allowed in drinking > water in the U.K. > 2.0 mg/liter = fluoride content at which dark staining of > teeth can occur 4.0 mg/liter = maximum level allowed in > drinking water in U.S. by EPA > > For comparison with natural water, most fresh water is said > to typically have less than 1 mg/liter fluoride, often > typically around 0.1 to 0.5 mg/liter; that's why adding > fluoride to strengthen teeth is recommended in most areas. > > I found a website giving a map and data for fluoride content > of well waters in Kentucky, a state which is known to have > some fluorite occurrences in its sedimentary rocks, and might > be expected to have some wells with fairly high fluoride > content. [The site is a pdf file so it's hard to give the > url; look up "ground-water Kentucky fluoride".] The median > values in the Kentucky well waters ranged between 0.10-0.20 > mg/liter. A few wells in the state tested higher than 4 > mg/liter; most (not all) of these were in the northwest part > of the state, along the Ohio River. According to the report, > the highest value found was 78 ppm [that's pretty high, > probably would not be safe to drink]. > > So to summarize; the fluoride concentration that would > eventually be reached for water in equilibrium with fluorite, > should be 8.2 mg/liter, which is twice the EPA maximum safe > level for humans. Perhaps this might harm fish, but I > suspect it would be a long-term problem, not something that > would have any immediate effect. > > As others have noted, the Bingham, NM fluorite has a lot of > other associated minerals, and it's possible that some of > these might be more toxic than the fluorite; or, the fish > death might have been coincidental. The Bingham fluorite is > associated with quartz (inert), barite (very insoluble), > galena (hmmm, though also pretty insoluble), other secondary > lead minerals often present on the galena, including > anglesite and cerussite (more of a concern?), and various > other copper-lead-zinc minerals, if any blue-green minerals > are present in the rocks (linarite, brochantite, > aurichalcite, cyanotrichite, and so on). A typical situation > when it comes to geology; it's very hard to say for sure > what's really going on! > > Pete Modreski > -------------- Original message from "Rik Dillen" > : -------------- > > > > John, don't be afraid... it is certainly not the piece of fluorite > > that could possibly have killed the fish (unless you throw > it on its > > head). > > First of all, calciumfluoride is only very, very slightly > soluble in > > water, and even much less so from a massive piece (unless very > > severely weathered). Furthermore, the "dissolution" (if > any) proceeds > > so slowly, that any significant (measurable by very > sophisticated and > > sensitive methods) concentration increase in the surrounding water > > would probably take a few hundred years at normal ambient > temperature. > > I even doubt that you would be able to measure any > difference at all > > compared to the normal background concentration of the > water. I will > > even go a step further : probably the natural water is saturated > > already with fluoride ions (which is the case at the > sub-ppm level for > > fluoride ions in a Ca-rich environment, which natural water is as > > such), and in that case the dissolution reaction is nearly > completely > > stopped, and no more fluorite will be dissolved at all. As > the water > > contains already a large excess of calcium ions, also that > fact will > > push back the dissolution reaction to almost nihil. > > > > Furthermore, it's only fluoride- and calcium ions that go into > > solution, and up to a limited quantity some fluoride in the > water is > > not harmful for any living creatures, including fish. The > > concentration will be many orders of magnitude less than what is > > present in the toothpaste you use daily, and the form is an > innocent > > salt, ionized into harmless ions in a pH-neutral > environment. Do not > > confuse fluoride ions with free hydrofluoric acid... that's a > > different pair of sleeves... > > > > BUT... the danger can be in accessory minerals that > dissolve much more > > quickly, such as sulphides etc. All the above is valid only for a > > piece of pure, massive, crystalline fluorite. > > > > Grts, > > > > Rik DILLEN > > Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail > > rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > > >>> Belgian minerals > > >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) > postage stamp ! > > >>> Exchange list > > > > MINERANT 2006 - 6 and 7 May 2006 > > Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) > > Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen > > http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html > > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > > JScully216@aol.com > > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 3:31 AM > > To: rockhounds@onelist.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in > > water > > > > Help!!! I gave my girlfriend a bunch of yard rock from Bingham > > including some green fluorite. She put it in her fish pond. > A neighbor > > swore up and down that the fluorite would kill the fish by > dissolving > > into poisonous solutions. I counter swore that fluorite is > very stable > > and such a thing would not happen. Today, a prize fish died. > > > > Who is right, me or the neighbor? > > > > John Scully > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Tue Mar 14 16:03:22 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Tue Mar 14 16:03:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant Message-ID: <000701c647c3$dfdbda00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> My life is looking for either a piece of amber (with a visible insect) for a pendant or a ready-made pendant. Please contact me off-list if you have something. deepskyspy@insightbb.com Alan G. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 14 16:15:51 2006 From: edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net (edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net) Date: Tue Mar 14 16:15:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Steve and Marilyn Message-ID: <20060315001551.BMGE2532.ibm68aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> There are many genuine mining sites in NC, outside of the tourist traps and salted sluices, but the areas available are becoming scarce. For corundum there is always Ghunky Gal Mountain and Lake Chatuge in Clay Co., NC, which abuts GA on the south and TN on the west. The best thing for the new guys to do is to contace someone in the area who goes collecting regularly. I am one of those people, but I bow to Richard Jacquat, who has been collecting in NC,SC,GA,TN and places I have not heard of. He has written a guidebook, is president of the Mountain Area Gem and Mineral Association, and knows just about every mine owner in the area. Connect to his web site . He's a good guy, and really lives for rock collecting. EJW From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Mar 14 16:19:02 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Mar 14 16:16:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Looking for information References: <000901c64785$b3e464f0$d9e2a3ce@userq8p3k9g7xy> Message-ID: <44175CC3.ADF@Tomaszewski.net> Gerry, You might be able to leverage the expenses of your renovations to the space into some time period of paid rent. Renters do that kind of deal with landlords all the time. Is there some ongoing maintenence the Club could do to pay for their rent? Were the grants obtained by the City, or by the Rock Club? If the latter, I can't see how the City can claim any ownership of the equipment. You might want to review the grant paperwork. If all City facilities will have to pay their own way from now on, does that also mean any users of City Parks will have to pay to play in the Park? Are they putting up toll gates on the City Streets? Or are City facilities already paid for by tax dollars. Might there be a wedge in their not being consistent? By driving out the clubs that enhance the quality of life in the City they will make it a less desirable place to live and work, leading to a decline in overall tax revenue as people vote with their feet. Think about the benefits the Club provides to the City. Might the benefits cover the rent? Good luck! Kreigh Gerry Koshman wrote: > > Good morning, > > Our Rock Club has just received a notice from our City Hall informing us > that all City facilities will have to pay their own way from now on and > our rent free status for our workshop will come to an end. > To put this into proper perspective, the space that we occupy is in the > basement of our Old City Hall that is now used totally by craft groups > and are the old public washrooms which our Club members renovated at our > own expense. > We are fortunate to have a very well equipped shop as over the years we > have fund raised and obtained partial grants for the purchase of > equipment etc. > The problem we have now is that our membership has dwindled to the point > that even a small rent charge will force us to close down the shop and > if that happens all of our assets belong to the City because they were > paid for in part by grants. > > What I am looking for is an indication of what other groups are paying > if they are using public facilities as I am meeting with the City > tomorrow to discuss our fate. > > Thankyou for all your help. > > Gerry > Mid_pro Rock & Gem Society > Prince Albert , SK Canada From geenet2 at mchsi.com Tue Mar 14 16:16:29 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Tue Mar 14 16:16:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Life searches References: <000701c647c3$dfdbda00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <005e01c647c5$b507e240$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Well, my life is looking for any number of special rocks that I'd love to find.. ;-p Sorry Alan, just couldn't help myself...... Course that could just start off a whole nother thread. What is that one special rock (or mineral, or fossil) that each of us is questing for? In general I'd have to say mine is blue agate. Doesn't matter where, as long as it's blue. Specifically, I'd like to find some gold in white quartz. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant My life is looking for either a piece of amber (with a visible insect) for a pendant or a ready-made pendant. Please contact me off-list if you have something. deepskyspy@insightbb.com Alan G. From pjmodreski at att.net Tue Mar 14 16:31:37 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Tue Mar 14 16:31:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Life searches Message-ID: <031520060031.26579.441760690004E7BD000067D3216028074807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> I had a dream once (honest!), that I was digging for rocks, and I found a vein of beautiful pink tourmaline crystals, in milky white quartz with native gold. After that, everything real has been a letdown. Pete -------------- Original message from "Jeanette Wimpee" : -------------- > Well, my life is looking for any number of special rocks that I'd love to > find.. > ;-p > Sorry Alan, just couldn't help myself...... > Course that could just start off a whole nother thread. What is that one > special rock (or mineral, or fossil) that each of us is questing for? In > general I'd have to say mine is blue agate. Doesn't matter where, as long > as it's blue. Specifically, I'd like to find some gold in white quartz. > Jeanette --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Tue Mar 14 17:29:54 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Tue Mar 14 17:32:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek, Idaho References: <031520060031.26579.441760690004E7BD000067D3216028074807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <001c01c647cf$fbe30780$0400a8c0@Notebook> Garnet lovers, I just received a note form the St. Joe Ranger District - the folk who manage Emerald Creek Garnet Area. It begins by saying that they may not be open by Memorial Day due to, "changes in the type of operation and our susceptibility to weather conditions." It goes on: "We would also like you to know there will be significant changes in the way we operate the Garnet Area. In order to address water quality, aquatic habitat, and safety concerns, the Forest Service is converting to a new method for gemstone collecting.Visitors will take garnet-bearing gravels from a stockpile to one of two sluices where they will wash and screen the gravels for garnets. While visitors will no longer be digging for garnets, the new method will still allow people to enjoy the thrill of discovery." "...questions, contact us at 208-245-2531 or 208-245-6097." I'm on the fence on this one. While I'm all for water quality and aquatic habitat, half the fun was standing hip-deep in cold muck digging for that prime paydirt! But this will also make the site more managable for the physically challenged (it's already wheelchair accessible). So until my back throws its final bearing (any day now if this morning was any indication) I believe I'll look up a local old-timer who promised to show me his private digs...if the snow ever quits. John From smtravis at plateautel.net Tue Mar 14 17:53:27 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Tue Mar 14 17:53:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Looking for information References: <000901c64785$b3e464f0$d9e2a3ce@userq8p3k9g7xy> <44175CC3.ADF@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <036e01c647d3$41256880$259e5a40@marilyn> I am President of our local club the Carlsbad Roadrunners we have our metetings at the senior center and have a shop there too they do not charge us for the room but they do have a annual fee for membership which pays for elect water gas and employees. We gather members for us and for them by putting on wirewrapping, silversmithing, lapidary, beading, etc. you might be able to suggest they charge admission for the public to be members, and talk to them about putting on membership growing activities. Good Luck Keep on Rockin Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Looking for information > Gerry, > > You might be able to leverage the expenses of your renovations to the > space into some time period of paid rent. Renters do that kind of deal > with landlords all the time. Is there some ongoing maintenence the Club > could do to pay for their rent? > > Were the grants obtained by the City, or by the Rock Club? If the > latter, I can't see how the City can claim any ownership of the > equipment. You might want to review the grant paperwork. > > If all City facilities will have to pay their own way from now on, does > that also mean any users of City Parks will have to pay to play in the > Park? Are they putting up toll gates on the City Streets? Or are City > facilities already paid for by tax dollars. Might there be a wedge in > their not being consistent? > > By driving out the clubs that enhance the quality of life in the City > they will make it a less desirable place to live and work, leading to a > decline in overall tax revenue as people vote with their feet. Think > about the benefits the Club provides to the City. Might the benefits > cover the rent? > > Good luck! > > Kreigh > > > > > Gerry Koshman wrote: >> >> Good morning, >> >> Our Rock Club has just received a notice from our City Hall informing us >> that all City facilities will have to pay their own way from now on and >> our rent free status for our workshop will come to an end. >> To put this into proper perspective, the space that we occupy is in the >> basement of our Old City Hall that is now used totally by craft groups >> and are the old public washrooms which our Club members renovated at our >> own expense. >> We are fortunate to have a very well equipped shop as over the years we >> have fund raised and obtained partial grants for the purchase of >> equipment etc. >> The problem we have now is that our membership has dwindled to the point >> that even a small rent charge will force us to close down the shop and >> if that happens all of our assets belong to the City because they were >> paid for in part by grants. >> >> What I am looking for is an indication of what other groups are paying >> if they are using public facilities as I am meeting with the City >> tomorrow to discuss our fate. >> >> Thankyou for all your help. >> >> Gerry >> Mid_pro Rock & Gem Society >> Prince Albert , SK Canada > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From tim at orerockon.com Tue Mar 14 18:04:16 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Mar 14 18:04:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek, Idaho In-Reply-To: <001c01c647cf$fbe30780$0400a8c0@Notebook> References: <031520060031.26579.441760690004E7BD000067D3216028074807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001c01c647cf$fbe30780$0400a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060314180009.035ead38@orerockon.com> There is a law in my business (environmental): "Where there is an environmental analysis, restrictions will inevitably follow." I saw this coming when they released the EA for the dig a few years ago. It's a shame to know that I can't go back and play in the mud like we did when I was in college. OTOH, maybe they will be smart about it and supply us with highly garnetiferous gravels. I do recall that finding the garnet bearing layer was a LOT of work; most of the gravel above the waterline was pretty barren stuff. Oh, wait a second, we are talking about the Forest Circus. Nevermind :( At 05:29 PM 3/14/2006, you wrote: >Garnet lovers, > >I just received a note form the St. Joe Ranger District - the folk >who manage Emerald Creek Garnet Area. It begins by saying that they >may not be open by Memorial Day due to, "changes in the type of >operation and our susceptibility to weather conditions." It goes on: > >"We would also like you to know there will be significant changes in >the way we operate the Garnet Area. In order to address water >quality, aquatic habitat, and safety concerns, the Forest Service is >converting to a new method for gemstone collecting.Visitors will >take garnet-bearing gravels from a stockpile to one of two sluices >where they will wash and screen the gravels for garnets. While >visitors will no longer be digging for garnets, the new method will >still allow people to enjoy the thrill of discovery." "...questions, >contact us at 208-245-2531 or 208-245-6097." > >I'm on the fence on this one. While I'm all for water quality and >aquatic habitat, half the fun was standing hip-deep in cold muck >digging for that prime paydirt! But this will also make the site >more managable for the physically challenged (it's already >wheelchair accessible). So until my back throws its final bearing >(any day now if this morning was any indication) I believe I'll look >up a local old-timer who promised to show me his private digs...if >the snow ever quits. > >John Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Mar 14 18:33:46 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Mar 14 18:30:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water References: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com><006a01c64720$1c407630$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <44164E87.1514@Tomaszewski.net> <000b01c647c2$881df510$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <44177C44.7295@Tomaszewski.net> Jeanette, I've already waited long enough. I'm down to one 6" moonlight gourami, a 4" barb, and a 2" cat. I lost the other big gourami, a three spot, to cystosis around new years. And maybe a 6" loach -- it often disappears for months under some rocks or into the gravel, and its been missing for about 6 weeks now. Its favorite spot is under a big flat chunk of orthoclase leaning on a chunk of puddingstone conglomerate, both self collected. The orthoclase came from glacial gravel here in Grand Rapids, and the puddingstone came from glacial gravel near Yankee Springs, MI (that area has produced a LOT of puddingstone). (I think I kept this on topic, but we're going to have to step off-list and talk a bit about fish). Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > Kreigh, that's the problem with any fish put into a smaller "captive" > environment called an aquarium. They are all territorial little beasts. Some > more than others. Sounds like you either have African Cichlids or Gouramis. > Wait long enough and the population will dwindle down to one of two alphas > and maybe a few very elusive fish of a different strata. > I once obtained a nice looking red striped rock from Arizona and I put it in > one of my aquariums. Within a week all the fish were distressed and dying. > I did tests and treated for all sorts of things to no avail. Took me weeks > and several purchases of fish to decide to take out all the rocks and > decorations in the tank. The dying stopped for a while...until I put the > Arizona rock back in. After talking to several people it was suggested that > a red striped rock from Arizona may contain Arsenate salts which would > poison the fish. I never used that rock again in my aquariums. It's outside > lining one of my fish ponds tho. > If you ever need any fishy advice, I know a lot more about fish and > aquariums than I do rocks! > Jeanette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:03 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in > water > > >I keep fish. My biggest problem is the 'alpha' fish, that tends to make > > any smaller fish dissappear, or turn up floating upside down. Fish are > > very territorial. I've got many specimens in the tank, but only the > > sulfates/sulphites have ever had an influence on the fish (I have not > > tried borates, arsenites, phosphates, etc.). Fluorite has never been a > > problem, nor has any silicate. > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > >> > >> >From all my years of experience in the "fish" biz, if only one fish dies > >> >in > >> a pond it can be from any number of reasons, most of them more likely > >> than > >> the flourite. I can't speak to the exact effects of a chunk of fluorite > >> in > >> the pond tho, probably depends on size of flourite, size of pond, pH of > >> the > >> pond water, etc. My experience tells me that IF it were the flourite, > >> there > >> would be multiple fish deaths starting with the most vulnerable or > >> stressed > >> specimen. If in doubt, take the flourite out. > >> Jeanette > >> Formerly known as "the fish lady" From rocknate at gmail.com Tue Mar 14 19:48:44 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Tue Mar 14 19:48:49 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Emerald Creek, Idaho In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060314180009.035ead38@orerockon.com> References: <031520060031.26579.441760690004E7BD000067D3216028074807059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <001c01c647cf$fbe30780$0400a8c0@Notebook> <7.0.0.16.2.20060314180009.035ead38@orerockon.com> Message-ID: I have a soft spot in my heart for Emerald Crrek as it was one of the first collecting trips I ever made. It was in 1986 and I was working in Bayview for several weeks during the summer. One Saturday three of us drove 3 to 4 hours down to St. Maries to spend the day collecting. The digging wasn't easy and it took me a while to learn what I was looking for but I did find some nice, albeit small garnets, two of them even have good crystal faces. I tumbled the ones without good faces and still have several of them in my collection. They are like old friends, connected to a good memory. I think it is a shame to turn this locality into yet another "pre-packaged" experience. One of the most important lessons I learned on my trip there was that collecting minerals is hard work but if you keep at it and get advice from people who actually know what they are doing you will come away with something to show for your efforts. Next time I'm in Idaho I'll be collecting somewhere else. best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 3/14/06, Tim Fisher wrote: > > There is a law in my business (environmental): "Where there is an > environmental analysis, restrictions will inevitably follow." I saw > this coming when they released the EA for the dig a few years ago. > It's a shame to know that I can't go back and play in the mud like we > did when I was in college. OTOH, maybe they will be smart about it > and supply us with highly garnetiferous gravels. I do recall that > finding the garnet bearing layer was a LOT of work; most of the > gravel above the waterline was pretty barren stuff. Oh, wait a > second, we are talking about the Forest Circus. Nevermind :( > > At 05:29 PM 3/14/2006, you wrote: > >Garnet lovers, > > > >I just received a note form the St. Joe Ranger District - the folk > >who manage Emerald Creek Garnet Area. It begins by saying that they > >may not be open by Memorial Day due to, "changes in the type of > >operation and our susceptibility to weather conditions." It goes on: > > > >"We would also like you to know there will be significant changes in > >the way we operate the Garnet Area. In order to address water > >quality, aquatic habitat, and safety concerns, the Forest Service is > >converting to a new method for gemstone collecting.Visitors will > >take garnet-bearing gravels from a stockpile to one of two sluices > >where they will wash and screen the gravels for garnets. While > >visitors will no longer be digging for garnets, the new method will > >still allow people to enjoy the thrill of discovery." "...questions, > >contact us at 208-245-2531 or 208-245-6097." > > > >I'm on the fence on this one. While I'm all for water quality and > >aquatic habitat, half the fun was standing hip-deep in cold muck > >digging for that prime paydirt! But this will also make the site > >more managable for the physically challenged (it's already > >wheelchair accessible). So until my back throws its final bearing > >(any day now if this morning was any indication) I believe I'll look > >up a local old-timer who promised to show me his private digs...if > >the snow ever quits. > > > >John > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Tue Mar 14 20:12:59 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Tue Mar 14 20:13:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water Message-ID: <031520060412.690.441794490008585D000002B2215876675507059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Ah, to know that some people are so wealthy when it comes to minerals (or should I say, rocks), that they can put big chunks of the rare and prized, Great Lakes "Puddingstone", just in the fish tank for the loach to hide under! Even King Solomon himself in all his wealthy, power, and glory, well, probably had neither the loach nor the puddingstone! Pete : ) -------------- Original message from Kreigh Tomaszewski : -------------- > Jeanette, > > I've already waited long enough. I'm down to one 6" moonlight gourami, a > 4" barb, and a 2" cat. I lost the other big gourami, a three spot, to > cystosis around new years. > > And maybe a 6" loach -- it often disappears for months under some rocks > or into the gravel, and its been missing for about 6 weeks now. Its > favorite spot is under a big flat chunk of orthoclase leaning on a chunk > of puddingstone conglomerate, both self collected. > > The orthoclase came from glacial gravel here in Grand Rapids, and the > puddingstone came from glacial gravel near Yankee Springs, MI (that area > has produced a LOT of puddingstone). > > (I think I kept this on topic, but we're going to have to step off-list > and talk a bit about fish). > > Kreigh > > > > > > Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > > > Kreigh, that's the problem with any fish put into a smaller "captive" > > environment called an aquarium. They are all territorial little beasts. Some > > more than others. Sounds like you either have African Cichlids or Gouramis. > > Wait long enough and the population will dwindle down to one of two alphas > > and maybe a few very elusive fish of a different strata. > > I once obtained a nice looking red striped rock from Arizona and I put it in > > one of my aquariums. Within a week all the fish were distressed and dying. > > I did tests and treated for all sorts of things to no avail. Took me weeks > > and several purchases of fish to decide to take out all the rocks and > > decorations in the tank. The dying stopped for a while...until I put the > > Arizona rock back in. After talking to several people it was suggested that > > a red striped rock from Arizona may contain Arsenate salts which would > > poison the fish. I never used that rock again in my aquariums. It's outside > > lining one of my fish ponds tho. > > If you ever need any fishy advice, I know a lot more about fish and > > aquariums than I do rocks! > > Jeanette > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 11:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in > > water > > > > >I keep fish. My biggest problem is the 'alpha' fish, that tends to make > > > any smaller fish dissappear, or turn up floating upside down. Fish are > > > very territorial. I've got many specimens in the tank, but only the > > > sulfates/sulphites have ever had an influence on the fish (I have not > > > tried borates, arsenites, phosphates, etc.). Fluorite has never been a > > > problem, nor has any silicate. > > > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > >> > > >> >From all my years of experience in the "fish" biz, if only one fish dies > > >> >in > > >> a pond it can be from any number of reasons, most of them more likely > > >> than > > >> the flourite. I can't speak to the exact effects of a chunk of fluorite > > >> in > > >> the pond tho, probably depends on size of flourite, size of pond, pH of > > >> the > > >> pond water, etc. My experience tells me that IF it were the flourite, > > >> there > > >> would be multiple fish deaths starting with the most vulnerable or > > >> stressed > > >> specimen. If in doubt, take the flourite out. > > >> Jeanette > > >> Formerly known as "the fish lady" > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Tue Mar 14 20:25:36 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Tue Mar 14 20:25:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] pebbly ol' rocks and fishes Message-ID: <031520060425.9603.441797400004EEF200002583215876675507059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Oops, I really should have changed that title on the last post, like I finally did now! And deleted the rest of the other previous messages too, like I also did now. Pete M. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From geenet2 at mchsi.com Tue Mar 14 21:41:34 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Tue Mar 14 21:41:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] pebbly ol' rocks and fishes References: <031520060425.9603.441797400004EEF200002583215876675507059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <01b501c647f3$1f180250$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Good boy, Pete! I kept a pretty nice sized chunk of Amethyst in my aquarium along with some agate, nickle chromate, and of course the ubiquitous petrified wood. For a long time, our rock collection "was" the decorative rocks in our many aquariums. At least I got to look at them most every day. I didn't know how to polish a rock then, so being wet made them look even better. The place I worked at had big bins of "aquarium" rocks imported from all over the world. I would look thru the new boxes of rocks when they came in, and find interesting things to take home and NOT put in the aquariums. Then the balance tilted to more rocks than fish after I left the fish business. Jeanette Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] pebbly ol' rocks and fishes > Oops, I really should have changed that title on the last post, like I > finally did now! And deleted the rest of the other previous messages > too, like I also did now. > > Pete M. >> From pjmodreski at att.net Tue Mar 14 22:02:59 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Tue Mar 14 22:03:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] pebbly ol' rocks and fishes Message-ID: <031520060602.18285.4417AE1200086FDB0000476D216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> ... nickel chromate, Jeanette? May I ask what that is or what it looks like? It sounds, (a) artificial, (b) possibly toxic to fish???, if that's what it really is. Lots of heavy metals there. 'Course if you've had it there a long time and fish are fine... Pete -------------- Original message from "Jeanette Wimpee" : -------------- > Good boy, Pete! > > I kept a pretty nice sized chunk of Amethyst in my aquarium along with some > agate, nickle chromate, and of course the ubiquitous petrified wood. For a > long time, our rock collection "was" the decorative rocks in our many > aquariums. At least I got to look at them most every day. I didn't know how > to polish a rock then, so being wet made them look even better. The place > I worked at had big bins of "aquarium" rocks imported from all over the > world. I would look thru the new boxes of rocks when they came in, and find > interesting things to take home and NOT put in the aquariums. Then the > balance tilted to more rocks than fish after I left the fish business. > Jeanette > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 23:13:06 2006 From: minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com (minnesota_pebble_pup) Date: Tue Mar 14 23:13:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Solubility and any bad effects of fluorite in water In-Reply-To: <2cd.4f3cb82.314784c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20060315071306.24597.qmail@web32608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- JScully216@aol.com wrote: Today, a prize fish died. Outdoor pond. I never kept outdoor fish. I kept aquariums for 21 years. Oh how I miss them. Anyhow, have your girlfriend pull the rocks out ONLY as a precaution. This is always step one when losing fish after a change in their environment. (Then she can mail them to any gleeful rockhound on the list she chooses. grin.) check the nitrate/nitrite levels, the PH levels (got koi in the pond? I think it should be closer to nuetral) and visually check the algae colors. Green algae is healthy. Blue is Ph problems, too alkaline. Getting on the yellow side is too acidic. Brown is poluted water (nitite/nitrate levels not healthy and acidity problems). Very dark brown/blackish is the promise of death to come... neglected water maintainance. The fish should have been neocropsied to search for gill, lung and bacterial problems. Check the live fish for red streaking in the fins, any appearance of funus near mouth,eyes and gills. If a fish must be handled; clean hands with extreme care... coat hands and fish with 'stress coat' or appropriate product. Chemical and mineral unbalances can be deadly to fish. chemicals are more the concern. Filling the pond should not be done with a garden hose, the pvc lines are safer. Any buckets or equipment must NEVER come in contact with household cleaning chemicals. So, any history of chemical cleanings on rocks could cause problems. Just to toss in something topic-ish... there is a medicinal water treatment called 'copper safe'. Yep, it's somehow got that copper MINERAL (ROCKHOUNDING TERM) in it. It is to be used EXACTLY per gallon as directed and is a last resort for tank environments which have repetitive infections and or problems. It can also be used as a preventive for some species of fishes. Another MINERAL that is quite important for fish is SALT. Salt helps to produce the 'slime' on their scales which protects them from abrasions and disease. Just be sure to use plain and never iodized. In a fish tank people can toss in the fish and yard junk and call it cute. In a fish's home, it's a science to maintain. Chemical and mineral both play a big part. Jonna p.s. I'll be surprised if this one makes it out... a bit too off topic. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From libawc at emory.edu Wed Mar 15 08:32:49 2006 From: libawc at emory.edu (Anita D. Westlake) Date: Wed Mar 15 08:33:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Life searches In-Reply-To: <005e01c647c5$b507e240$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <004601c6484e$194a8180$14bf8caa@genlibad.library.emory.edu> My life is always occupied looking for real red amber. I have bought several lovely pieces of plastic in the past... Anita -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanette Wimpee Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 7:16 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gemcollectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Life searches Well, my life is looking for any number of special rocks that I'd love to find.. ;-p Sorry Alan, just couldn't help myself...... Course that could just start off a whole nother thread. What is that one special rock (or mineral, or fossil) that each of us is questing for? In general I'd have to say mine is blue agate. Doesn't matter where, as long as it's blue. Specifically, I'd like to find some gold in white quartz. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant My life is looking for either a piece of amber (with a visible insect) for a pendant or a ready-made pendant. Please contact me off-list if you have something. deepskyspy@insightbb.com Alan G. _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at verizon.net Wed Mar 15 09:53:54 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Mar 15 09:53:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] diamond found Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060315074730.02d35480@incoming.verizon.net> The following story was on the Today show this morning, so many of you may know about it, but it's kind of fun. Here's the headline: 4.21-carat, Canary Yellow Diamond Found at Arkansas's Crater of Diamonds State Park by First Time Visitor From Oklahoma http://www.arkansas.com/special-announcements/default.asp?ID=12 Aloha, K. From aliciaw61 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 15 09:56:43 2006 From: aliciaw61 at yahoo.com (Alicia Williams) Date: Wed Mar 15 09:56:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] diamond found In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20060315074730.02d35480@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060315175643.6546.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I saw the show it was gorgeous Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: The following story was on the Today show this morning, so many of you may know about it, but it's kind of fun. Here's the headline: 4.21-carat, Canary Yellow Diamond Found at Arkansas's Crater of Diamonds State Park by First Time Visitor From Oklahoma http://www.arkansas.com/special-announcements/default.asp?ID=12 Aloha, K. _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html Alicia http://scrapthememories.com http://freshairfoods.wholefoodfarmacy.com/2005/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From millsgeological at earthlink.net Wed Mar 15 11:00:50 2006 From: millsgeological at earthlink.net (Jim Mills) Date: Wed Mar 15 11:01:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: More Geosciene Books for Sale Message-ID: <05e601c64862$c8620620$9ea3b2d1@IBMBFBC977768C> Hello Group: I have another used geoscience book offering for members of this list. If you don't want to read this ADVERTISEMENT, then please delete now. Some of these books were in my personal library, some of them were duplicates or "extras" recently acquired when I purchased box-lots containing something I did need for my own library, and some have come out of other libraries ("ex-library"). If you are interested please email me off list CrestonCoyote@earthlink.net and I will reserve requested titles for the first person to claim them. If you see something you want, don't delay - the previous sales seemed to go remarkably fast and some of you were disappointed. I have arranged the titles by the general categories of METEORITES, MINERALS MINES AND MINING, MINERALS, FOSSILS, GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS, AND GEOLOGY. All are bargain priced and the price quoted includes media rate postage. So, take a look and see if any of these need to be in your own library: 1. METEORITES "Catalog of 230 Meteorite Craters thereto of 78 Erroneous Objects" by J. Classen and published in English by Vwerofffenlighungen der Sternwarte Pulsnitz in 1977. This is a fascinating collectible for the meteorite enthusiast's library. It was published in (then) communist East Germany and lists all known meteorite structures worldwide. It also gives details about 78 discredited structures. Includes an extensive bibliography. 17 pages in heavy carboard wraps. Price - $7 2. METEORITES "Studies of Nobel Gases in Meteorites and in the Earth" by Stephen Pritchard Smith and published as University Microfilms International (print on demand). This study was Smith's PhD Thesis at Cal Tech in Pasadena. As such, it is a rather technical study which runs to a length of 413 double spaced pages. Price - $10 3. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING Two issues of "The national Amateur Mineralogist" dated December 1941 and May, 1947. An interesting look into some of the early origins of the rockhounding hobby. This publication was around for about 10 years or so. Published by O.B. Brown in Seattle, Washington. The ads are at least as interesting as the short articles themselves. Small format magazines of around 35 to 40 pages each. Price - $10 (includes both issues) 4. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING "From the Ground Up - Stories of Arizona's Mines and Early Mineral Discoveries" by governor Jack Williams and Published by Phelps-Dodge corporation in 1981 as part of the company's centennial celebration. Soft cover, 32 pages, excellent condition. Price - $7 5. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING "Arizona Nonmetallics, A Summary of Past Production and Present Operations" by Eldred Wilson and published by the University of Arizona as Bulletin #152 in October, 1944. It is a 58 page report which concentrates on nonmetallic minerals. It is in near fine condition with only the previous owning organization's name stamped on the title page. Price - $10 6. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING "The Mineral Industries of Arizona" by J.B. Tenney and published by the University of Arizona as Bulletin #125 in February, 1928. A nice copy for those interested in historical mineral developments in Arizona. It is a 135 page report which concentrates on metallic mineral mines and organized by mining district. It is in near fine condition with only the previous owning organization's name stamped on the title page. Price - $10 7. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING - "Some Facts about Ore Deposits" by G. Montague Butler and published by the University of Arizona as Bulletin #139 in August, 1935. This 99 page booklet covers all you need to know about the origins of ore bodies. A very useful introduction to the subject. It is in near fine condition with only the previous owning organization's name stamped on the title page. Price - $10 8. MINES AND MINING "Rawhide" by Hugh Shamberger and published in Carson City, Nevada by Nevada Historical Press in 1974. Staple Bound Paperback Illustrated By Photographs and Fold out Map. Fine condition. Size is 11"H x 8 1/2"W Length is 50 Pages. Part of the Historic Mining Camps of Nevada Early History Development Water Supply series, a joint effort by USGS and Nevada Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. A little about its people, its mines, its quest for water and its promoters, who all together made it Nevada's last great mining boom. Price - $25 9. MINERALS - "MINERALOGICAL NOTES, SERIES 3" published by the United States Geological Survey (USGS) in 1916 as Bulletin 610. It was written by Waldemar T. Schaller. Schaller was a prominent mineralogist with the USGS in the early part of the 20th century and wrote species descriptions of many of the new minerals which were being discovered at a rather quick pace with the advent of new laboratory technology and new methods of analysis. Many of Schaller's new species descriptions were published by USGS and this bulletin is a compendium of new species descriptions as well as notes on other species that were already named but inadequately described. Of greatest interest in this publication are the descriptions of the new minerals: KOECHLINITE (a bismuth molybdate from Saxony, Germany), INYOITE AND MEYERHOFFERITE (calcium borates from Death Valley, California), LUCINITE (a dimorphous form of VARISCITE from Lucien, Utah and the book also contains an exhaustive analysis of the crystallography of variscite). He also gives additional geochemical analysis and crystallographic analysis on the following minerals: Romeite, Schneebergite, Tremolite, Velardenite, and some analysis on the acids of Antimony. Perhaps one of the most fascinating articles in the publication concerns GIGANTIC crystals of SPODUMENE from South Dakota. These truly remarkable crystals measured up to 42 feet in length and 3 to 6 feet in diameter with final mined weight of 37 tons. But many other crystals in the 5 to 20 foot length category were also found. If you are a collector of gem minerals this one page article, alone, will be of interest to you. It has a couple of great photos. The remainder of the articles are also very well illustrated with crystallographic drawings, photographs, gnomonic projections and tabulated data. If you are a collector of any of the above minerals or if the major groups of evaporates, molybdates, bismuth or antimony minerals, this book should be in your library. It is in excellent condition in its original typical USGS gray cardstock wraps. Interior pages are clean and crisp. The spine has minor sunning but otherwise the book is in great shape! Price $15 10. MINERALS "Glossary of Scottish Mineral Species in 1981" by H.G. MacPherson and A. Livingstone and published by teh Department of Geology of the Royal Scottis Museum in Edinborough in 1982. This is an exhaustive listingn of all mineral species found in Scotlant and arranged in several different ways. Alphabetically by mineral species with a brief description of the mineral and the reference to papers and books where the informatin is published, then, another list organized by family of mnerals and the species within those families, and then another list organized by anionic gropups. Also a brief text. 47 pages total. Price - $10 11. MINERALS "The Fractionation of the Yttrium Earths by Means of the Succinates" by Raymond Benner (his PhD thesis at the University of Wisconsin) and published as an off print of the University of Wisconsin Science Series Vol 4 No 1 in 1910. This is a classic in geochemistry and mineralogy. The author worked with Fergusonite from Gaalenerne, Norway; Euxenite from Arendal, Norway; Gadolinite from Texas; Keilhauite from Tvedestrand, Norway and Xenotime from from Langesundfiord, Norway. If your collection includes an interest in the rare earth minerals, this is a great collectible for you! Price - $10 12. MINERALS "Oxygen" by Michael Ardon published in 1965. This is everything that you ever wanted to know about the gas that forms all of those lovely oxide minerals in your collection. It is definitive and well written, oriented more to the science of chemistry but definitely of great value to the mineralogist. Hardcover with dustjacket; 106 pages. Price - $12 13. MINERALS "A color Treasury of Crystals" with introduction by Vincenzo DeMichele, Director of the Milan Natural History Museum. This is a great book for the beginning collector who wants to understand crystallography and mineralogy. The crystal system is explained clearly and concisely and then is illustrated with large photographs of real mineral specimens. What I like about this book is that the photographer has produced pictures that really do show the crystal faces and the author has endeavored to make them easy to interpret, especially when used with the diagrametic line drawings of the crystal. If you don't understand the seven systems of crystals but want to do so, this book is for you! Price $12 15. FOSSILS - DINOSAURS "Tracking Dinosaurs: A New Look at an Ancient World" by Martin Lockley. This is NOT the published book. It is the author's final draft copy, xeroxed, with the author's notes as sent to Cambridge University Press in June 1990. It is typewritten, double spacd and plastic spiral bound. As such, the photographs are all black and white xerox copies as well as the maps, diagrams, etc. 342 pages. Price - $12 16. FOSSILS - CRUSTACEANS "A Pennsylvan Lepadomorph Barnacle from the Mazon Creek Area, Illinois" by Frederick R. Schram and published in the Journal of Paleontology Volume 49 #5 in September 1975. This copy is extracted from the original copy of that issue of the Journal (i.e. not a reprint or offprint). 3 pages on the Journal's glossy paper. Illustrated with holotype specimen photograph and line drawing. No wraps. Price - $7 17. FOSSILS - BRACHIOPODS "Population Dynamics of Some Paleozoic Brachiopods and their Paleoecological Significance" by S Peter Richards and R. Bambach and published in the Journal of Paleontology Volume 49 #5 in September 1975. This copy is extracted from the original copy of that issue of the Journal (i.e. not a reprint or offprint). 23 pages on the Journal's glossy paper. Illustrated with mainly distribution diagrams for a half dozen or so species of Brachiopods from Indiana locations (Waldron, Richmond, Brookville, and Clifton. No wraps. Price - $7 18. GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS "Overthrust Belt of Southwestern Wyoming" by various authors and published as the Wyoming Geological Association Guidebook for their annual conference in 1960. This book has loads of information about geology in the oil producing region in and around the Blue Forest petrifeid wood area. Lots of stratigraphy, mineralogy (especially of the Trona mines in the area) plus three detailed road trip logs which explain exactly what one is seeing along the routes. Price - $20 19. GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS "Geology of Shenandoah National Park" by Thomas Gathright and published by Virginia Division of Mineral Resources as Bulletin 86 in 1976. This book has 60 pages of geology of the park and lots of road logs. The map pocket has three detailed map plates printed on high quality, heavy stock paper. Excellent condition. Price - $7 20. GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS "Roadside Geology of Northern California" by Alt and Hyndman. Covers all of the major routes to the North of a line running along the I-80/US-50 corridor between San Francisco, Sacramento and Lake Tahoe. Ex-library so this copy is hardback (library bound). Very good condition. Price - $7 21. GEOLOGY "Geologic Block Diagram and Tectonic History of the Teton Region (Wyoming)" by Love et al and published as a reprint of USGS Geological Survey map I-730 by the Grand Teton Natural history Association. It is a full color fold out map (quite a large size) of this intersting region. Text is included on the map plate. Map comes in a cardstock envelope for safe-keeping. Price - $7 22. GEOLOGY "British Regional Geology - The Central England District" by Edmunds and Oakley. Published by HMSO in 1947. Excellent summary and contains good illustrations of trilobites, gononiatites, crinoids and plant fossils that are found in the district's strata. 80 pages. Price - $10 23. GEOLOGY "Methods of Study of Sediments" by Twenhoffel and Tyler published in 1941. A classic, nonmathmatical yet complete presentation of methodologies for sediment studies including standard sampling, analysis strategies and forms of graphical presentation. Excellent treatments of coal and oil shales as well. Very good condition hardback with good condition dustjacket. $12 23. GEOLOGY "The Floors of the Oceans, 1. The North Atlantic" by Bruce Heezen et al. Published in hardcover quarto book format by Geological Society of America as Special Paper 65 in 1959. 122 pages with numerous fold-out maps at back of book. Price - $10. 24. GEOLOGY "Southeastern Sangre De Cristo Mountains, New Mexico, 1956", NM Geological Society 7th Field Conference Guidebook. Loaded with information on stratigraphy of this region. Extensive, detailed road logs. 151 pages spiral bound. Price - $15 25. GEOLOGY "General Geology of Guam" published as USGS Professional Paper 403-A in 1964. Text is 100 pages. Map pocket has 3 full color geologic maps on high quality heavy paper. Ex-library with usual markings but a very good copy. Price - $10 26. GEOLOGY "The Evolving Continents" by Brian Windley. The interesting aspect of this book is that Windley approaches plate tectonics from the standpoint of what was happening to the continents as a result. If you have read anything else about plate tectonics, you probably know that most authors approach the topic from the standpoint of geophysics and the oceanic crust along with the mechanics of plate motion. Windley reviews the geology of continental breakup and key folds in the continents. A lot of these facets are not synthesized in other books and are thus not as easy to understand as Windley makes them. Windley is at the University of Leicester in England. It is 399 pages in soft cover. It has been very gently used. Price - $15. . 27. GEOCHEMISTRY "Geology of Carbonate Porosity" published as Continuing Education Course Note Series #11 by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists (AAPG) in 1979. Five different authors contributed to this coarse material in the following five categories: Porosity in carbonate rock sequences, Secondary carbonate porosity, Dolomite Reservoir Ropcks: Processes Controls, Porosity development, Porosity Prediction in shallow versus Deep Water Limestones, Pore Systems in carbonate rocks and their Influence on Hydrocarbon Recovery Efficiency. Price - $18 28. GEOLOGY/STRATIGRAPHY/MICROFOSSILS "Committee on Mediterranean Neogene Stratigraphy, Proceedings of the third Session in Berne" 8 - 13 June, 1964 edited by C.W. Drooger, et al and published in 1966 by Brill, in Leiden, Netherlands. Large format, 346 pp. 99 figs./plts. covering the proceedings of the Symposium on paleontological lineages and zones used for biostratigraphic subdivision of the Neogene throughout the world. Includes several dozen different scholarly papers, most in English, but some others in French, Italian and German. Hardback book - ex library with usual markings and the usual markings blotted out with felt pen. The book includes papers covering taxonomy of some mollusks as well as foraminerifera. Price $20 29. CALIFORNIA GEOLOGY "Geologic and Engineering Aspects of San Francisco Bay Fill, Special Report 97" edited by Harold Goldman of the California Division of Mines and Geology and published in 1969. Everything you always wanted to know about the hazards of building on mud in an earthquake prone environment!! Excellent treatment of all aspects of the subject and written for the geologically-informed layman. Vinyl binding and loads of maps in the back pocket. Ex- library; vinal binding has become detached. Price - $10 30. GEOLOGY "Bibliography of the Geology and Mineral Resources of Arizona" by Eldred Wilson (University of Arizona Bulletin, Geologic Series#146, April, 1939. It is arranged alphabetically by Author. Well indexed for cross reference to key words. 163 pages. Ex-library copy with typical stamps and markings. Otherwise good tight binding and clean pages. Price - $15 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Wed Mar 15 11:07:34 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Wed Mar 15 11:12:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: More Geosciene Books for Sale References: <05e601c64862$c8620620$9ea3b2d1@IBMBFBC977768C> Message-ID: <000801c64863$b7d83580$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Hi. I am interested in the item METEORITES "Studies of Nobel Gases in Meteorites and in the Earth". What could be the postage cost to Europe? Armando Afonso - Portugal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Mills" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:00 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: More Geosciene Books for Sale Hello Group: I have another used geoscience book offering for members of this list. If you don't want to read this ADVERTISEMENT, then please delete now. Some of these books were in my personal library, some of them were duplicates or "extras" recently acquired when I purchased box-lots containing something I did need for my own library, and some have come out of other libraries ("ex-library"). If you are interested please email me off list CrestonCoyote@earthlink.net and I will reserve requested titles for the first person to claim them. If you see something you want, don't delay - the previous sales seemed to go remarkably fast and some of you were disappointed. I have arranged the titles by the general categories of METEORITES, MINERALS MINES AND MINING, MINERALS, FOSSILS, GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS, AND GEOLOGY. All are bargain priced and the price quoted includes media rate postage. So, take a look and see if any of these need to be in your own library: 1. METEORITES "Catalog of 230 Meteorite Craters thereto of 78 Erroneous Objects" by J. Classen and published in English by Vwerofffenlighungen der Sternwarte Pulsnitz in 1977. This is a fascinating collectible for the meteorite enthusiast's library. It was published in (then) communist East Germany and lists all known meteorite structures worldwide. It also gives details about 78 discredited structures. Includes an extensive bibliography. 17 pages in heavy carboard wraps. Price - $7 2. METEORITES "Studies of Nobel Gases in Meteorites and in the Earth" by Stephen Pritchard Smith and published as University Microfilms International (print on demand). This study was Smith's PhD Thesis at Cal Tech in Pasadena. As such, it is a rather technical study which runs to a length of 413 double spaced pages. Price - $10 3. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING Two issues of "The national Amateur Mineralogist" dated December 1941 and May, 1947. An interesting look into some of the early origins of the rockhounding hobby. This publication was around for about 10 years or so. Published by O.B. Brown in Seattle, Washington. The ads are at least as interesting as the short articles themselves. Small format magazines of around 35 to 40 pages each. Price - $10 (includes both issues) 4. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING "From the Ground Up - Stories of Arizona's Mines and Early Mineral Discoveries" by governor Jack Williams and Published by Phelps-Dodge corporation in 1981 as part of the company's centennial celebration. Soft cover, 32 pages, excellent condition. Price - $7 5. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING "Arizona Nonmetallics, A Summary of Past Production and Present Operations" by Eldred Wilson and published by the University of Arizona as Bulletin #152 in October, 1944. It is a 58 page report which concentrates on nonmetallic minerals. It is in near fine condition with only the previous owning organization's name stamped on the title page. Price - $10 6. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING "The Mineral Industries of Arizona" by J.B. Tenney and published by the University of Arizona as Bulletin #125 in February, 1928. A nice copy for those interested in historical mineral developments in Arizona. It is a 135 page report which concentrates on metallic mineral mines and organized by mining district. It is in near fine condition with only the previous owning organization's name stamped on the title page. Price - $10 7. MINERALS, MINES AND MINING - "Some Facts about Ore Deposits" by G. Montague Butler and published by the University of Arizona as Bulletin #139 in August, 1935. This 99 page booklet covers all you need to know about the origins of ore bodies. A very useful introduction to the subject. It is in near fine condition with only the previous owning organization's name stamped on the title page. Price - $10 8. MINES AND MINING "Rawhide" by Hugh Shamberger and published in Carson City, Nevada by Nevada Historical Press in 1974. Staple Bound Paperback Illustrated By Photographs and Fold out Map. Fine condition. Size is 11"H x 8 1/2"W Length is 50 Pages. Part of the Historic Mining Camps of Nevada Early History Development Water Supply series, a joint effort by USGS and Nevada Department of Conservation and Natural Resources. A little about its people, its mines, its quest for water and its promoters, who all together made it Nevada's last great mining boom. Price - $25 9. MINERALS - "MINERALOGICAL NOTES, SERIES 3" published by the United States Geological Survey (USGS) in 1916 as Bulletin 610. It was written by Waldemar T. Schaller. Schaller was a prominent mineralogist with the USGS in the early part of the 20th century and wrote species descriptions of many of the new minerals which were being discovered at a rather quick pace with the advent of new laboratory technology and new methods of analysis. Many of Schaller's new species descriptions were published by USGS and this bulletin is a compendium of new species descriptions as well as notes on other species that were already named but inadequately described. Of greatest interest in this publication are the descriptions of the new minerals: KOECHLINITE (a bismuth molybdate from Saxony, Germany), INYOITE AND MEYERHOFFERITE (calcium borates from Death Valley, California), LUCINITE (a dimorphous form of VARISCITE from Lucien, Utah and the book also contains an exhaustive analysis of the crystallography of variscite). He also gives additional geochemical analysis and crystallographic analysis on the following minerals: Romeite, Schneebergite, Tremolite, Velardenite, and some analysis on the acids of Antimony. Perhaps one of the most fascinating articles in the publication concerns GIGANTIC crystals of SPODUMENE from South Dakota. These truly remarkable crystals measured up to 42 feet in length and 3 to 6 feet in diameter with final mined weight of 37 tons. But many other crystals in the 5 to 20 foot length category were also found. If you are a collector of gem minerals this one page article, alone, will be of interest to you. It has a couple of great photos. The remainder of the articles are also very well illustrated with crystallographic drawings, photographs, gnomonic projections and tabulated data. If you are a collector of any of the above minerals or if the major groups of evaporates, molybdates, bismuth or antimony minerals, this book should be in your library. It is in excellent condition in its original typical USGS gray cardstock wraps. Interior pages are clean and crisp. The spine has minor sunning but otherwise the book is in great shape! Price $15 10. MINERALS "Glossary of Scottish Mineral Species in 1981" by H.G. MacPherson and A. Livingstone and published by teh Department of Geology of the Royal Scottis Museum in Edinborough in 1982. This is an exhaustive listingn of all mineral species found in Scotlant and arranged in several different ways. Alphabetically by mineral species with a brief description of the mineral and the reference to papers and books where the informatin is published, then, another list organized by family of mnerals and the species within those families, and then another list organized by anionic gropups. Also a brief text. 47 pages total. Price - $10 11. MINERALS "The Fractionation of the Yttrium Earths by Means of the Succinates" by Raymond Benner (his PhD thesis at the University of Wisconsin) and published as an off print of the University of Wisconsin Science Series Vol 4 No 1 in 1910. This is a classic in geochemistry and mineralogy. The author worked with Fergusonite from Gaalenerne, Norway; Euxenite from Arendal, Norway; Gadolinite from Texas; Keilhauite from Tvedestrand, Norway and Xenotime from from Langesundfiord, Norway. If your collection includes an interest in the rare earth minerals, this is a great collectible for you! Price - $10 12. MINERALS "Oxygen" by Michael Ardon published in 1965. This is everything that you ever wanted to know about the gas that forms all of those lovely oxide minerals in your collection. It is definitive and well written, oriented more to the science of chemistry but definitely of great value to the mineralogist. Hardcover with dustjacket; 106 pages. Price - $12 13. MINERALS "A color Treasury of Crystals" with introduction by Vincenzo DeMichele, Director of the Milan Natural History Museum. This is a great book for the beginning collector who wants to understand crystallography and mineralogy. The crystal system is explained clearly and concisely and then is illustrated with large photographs of real mineral specimens. What I like about this book is that the photographer has produced pictures that really do show the crystal faces and the author has endeavored to make them easy to interpret, especially when used with the diagrametic line drawings of the crystal. If you don't understand the seven systems of crystals but want to do so, this book is for you! Price $12 15. FOSSILS - DINOSAURS "Tracking Dinosaurs: A New Look at an Ancient World" by Martin Lockley. This is NOT the published book. It is the author's final draft copy, xeroxed, with the author's notes as sent to Cambridge University Press in June 1990. It is typewritten, double spacd and plastic spiral bound. As such, the photographs are all black and white xerox copies as well as the maps, diagrams, etc. 342 pages. Price - $12 16. FOSSILS - CRUSTACEANS "A Pennsylvan Lepadomorph Barnacle from the Mazon Creek Area, Illinois" by Frederick R. Schram and published in the Journal of Paleontology Volume 49 #5 in September 1975. This copy is extracted from the original copy of that issue of the Journal (i.e. not a reprint or offprint). 3 pages on the Journal's glossy paper. Illustrated with holotype specimen photograph and line drawing. No wraps. Price - $7 17. FOSSILS - BRACHIOPODS "Population Dynamics of Some Paleozoic Brachiopods and their Paleoecological Significance" by S Peter Richards and R. Bambach and published in the Journal of Paleontology Volume 49 #5 in September 1975. This copy is extracted from the original copy of that issue of the Journal (i.e. not a reprint or offprint). 23 pages on the Journal's glossy paper. Illustrated with mainly distribution diagrams for a half dozen or so species of Brachiopods from Indiana locations (Waldron, Richmond, Brookville, and Clifton. No wraps. Price - $7 18. GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS "Overthrust Belt of Southwestern Wyoming" by various authors and published as the Wyoming Geological Association Guidebook for their annual conference in 1960. This book has loads of information about geology in the oil producing region in and around the Blue Forest petrifeid wood area. Lots of stratigraphy, mineralogy (especially of the Trona mines in the area) plus three detailed road trip logs which explain exactly what one is seeing along the routes. Price - $20 19. GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS "Geology of Shenandoah National Park" by Thomas Gathright and published by Virginia Division of Mineral Resources as Bulletin 86 in 1976. This book has 60 pages of geology of the park and lots of road logs. The map pocket has three detailed map plates printed on high quality, heavy stock paper. Excellent condition. Price - $7 20. GEOLOGY - FIELD TRIPS "Roadside Geology of Northern California" by Alt and Hyndman. Covers all of the major routes to the North of a line running along the I-80/US-50 corridor between San Francisco, Sacramento and Lake Tahoe. Ex-library so this copy is hardback (library bound). Very good condition. Price - $7 21. GEOLOGY "Geologic Block Diagram and Tectonic History of the Teton Region (Wyoming)" by Love et al and published as a reprint of USGS Geological Survey map I-730 by the Grand Teton Natural history Association. It is a full color fold out map (quite a large size) of this intersting region. Text is included on the map plate. Map comes in a cardstock envelope for safe-keeping. Price - $7 22. GEOLOGY "British Regional Geology - The Central England District" by Edmunds and Oakley. Published by HMSO in 1947. Excellent summary and contains good illustrations of trilobites, gononiatites, crinoids and plant fossils that are found in the district's strata. 80 pages. Price - $10 23. GEOLOGY "Methods of Study of Sediments" by Twenhoffel and Tyler published in 1941. A classic, nonmathmatical yet complete presentation of methodologies for sediment studies including standard sampling, analysis strategies and forms of graphical presentation. Excellent treatments of coal and oil shales as well. Very good condition hardback with good condition dustjacket. $12 23. GEOLOGY "The Floors of the Oceans, 1. The North Atlantic" by Bruce Heezen et al. Published in hardcover quarto book format by Geological Society of America as Special Paper 65 in 1959. 122 pages with numerous fold-out maps at back of book. Price - $10. 24. GEOLOGY "Southeastern Sangre De Cristo Mountains, New Mexico, 1956", NM Geological Society 7th Field Conference Guidebook. Loaded with information on stratigraphy of this region. Extensive, detailed road logs. 151 pages spiral bound. Price - $15 25. GEOLOGY "General Geology of Guam" published as USGS Professional Paper 403-A in 1964. Text is 100 pages. Map pocket has 3 full color geologic maps on high quality heavy paper. Ex-library with usual markings but a very good copy. Price - $10 26. GEOLOGY "The Evolving Continents" by Brian Windley. The interesting aspect of this book is that Windley approaches plate tectonics from the standpoint of what was happening to the continents as a result. If you have read anything else about plate tectonics, you probably know that most authors approach the topic from the standpoint of geophysics and the oceanic crust along with the mechanics of plate motion. Windley reviews the geology of continental breakup and key folds in the continents. A lot of these facets are not synthesized in other books and are thus not as easy to understand as Windley makes them. Windley is at the University of Leicester in England. It is 399 pages in soft cover. It has been very gently used. Price - $15. . 27. GEOCHEMISTRY "Geology of Carbonate Porosity" published as Continuing Education Course Note Series #11 by the American Association of Petroleum Geologists (AAPG) in 1979. Five different authors contributed to this coarse material in the following five categories: Porosity in carbonate rock sequences, Secondary carbonate porosity, Dolomite Reservoir Ropcks: Processes Controls, Porosity development, Porosity Prediction in shallow versus Deep Water Limestones, Pore Systems in carbonate rocks and their Influence on Hydrocarbon Recovery Efficiency. Price - $18 28. GEOLOGY/STRATIGRAPHY/MICROFOSSILS "Committee on Mediterranean Neogene Stratigraphy, Proceedings of the third Session in Berne" 8 - 13 June, 1964 edited by C.W. Drooger, et al and published in 1966 by Brill, in Leiden, Netherlands. Large format, 346 pp. 99 figs./plts. covering the proceedings of the Symposium on paleontological lineages and zones used for biostratigraphic subdivision of the Neogene throughout the world. Includes several dozen different scholarly papers, most in English, but some others in French, Italian and German. Hardback book - ex library with usual markings and the usual markings blotted out with felt pen. The book includes papers covering taxonomy of some mollusks as well as foraminerifera. Price $20 29. CALIFORNIA GEOLOGY "Geologic and Engineering Aspects of San Francisco Bay Fill, Special Report 97" edited by Harold Goldman of the California Division of Mines and Geology and published in 1969. Everything you always wanted to know about the hazards of building on mud in an earthquake prone environment!! Excellent treatment of all aspects of the subject and written for the geologically-informed layman. Vinyl binding and loads of maps in the back pocket. Ex- library; vinal binding has become detached. Price - $10 30. GEOLOGY "Bibliography of the Geology and Mineral Resources of Arizona" by Eldred Wilson (University of Arizona Bulletin, Geologic Series#146, April, 1939. It is arranged alphabetically by Author. Well indexed for cross reference to key words. 163 pages. Ex-library copy with typical stamps and markings. Otherwise good tight binding and clean pages. Price - $15 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From turnea55 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 15 14:23:23 2006 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Wed Mar 15 14:23:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] diamond found In-Reply-To: <20060315175643.6546.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am going back to Crater of Diamonds State Park next weekend. My girlfriend and I are having a relaxing extended weekend in Hot Springs. Thanks to all my free Southwest trips and car rentals, I can spend money on other things instead. At first I was really upset that we didn't go this past weekend as I may have found that diamond instead. However, I think the worst feeling would be if you were there at the time the guy found that diamond---even worse if you were standing/searching right behind him at that moment. I can't even imagine, I think I'd just go home right then if that occurred..hehe. I visited AR on a 5 day geology/mineral collecting trip about 4 years ago with the AR state geologist, my grad school advisor, and another grad student. We were fortunate enough to gain access go to Magnet Cove and dig rutile, brookite, pyrite, apatite in the carbonatite, rare minerals from some old quarries, titanite, etc., as well as dig for the typical quartz and wavellite. This time I am scaling it back (due to lack of access, weather, and a girlfriend who doesn't want to just "look for rocks" all 4 days). However, I'm sure will still visit Miller Mountain for some quartz digging, go to Crater of Diamonds, and may even dig some wavellite near Mt. Ida (not to mention all the rock shops). Should be a good trip--beats the snow we had in CA and the 3ft of snow we had at our quarry near Globe, AZ. Andrew Turner Victorville, CA >From: Alicia Williams >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] diamond found >Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:56:43 -0800 (PST) > >I saw the show it was gorgeous > > > >Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > The following story was on the Today show this morning, so many of you >may >know about it, but it's kind of fun. Here's the >headline: > >4.21-carat, Canary Yellow Diamond Found at Arkansas's Crater of Diamonds >State Park by First Time Visitor From Oklahoma > >http://www.arkansas.com/special-announcements/default.asp?ID=12 > >Aloha, K. > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > Alicia > http://scrapthememories.com > http://freshairfoods.wholefoodfarmacy.com/2005/ > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Wed Mar 15 14:55:50 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Mar 15 14:55:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: More Geosciene Books for Sale In-Reply-To: <000801c64863$b7d83580$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> References: <05e601c64862$c8620620$9ea3b2d1@IBMBFBC977768C> <000801c64863$b7d83580$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:07:34 -0000, "Armando Afonso" wrote: > >Hi. >I am interested in the item METEORITES "Studies of Nobel Gases in Meteorites >and in the Earth". >What could be the postage cost to Europe? >Armando Afonso - Portugal > Armando, you should contact Jim off list, as requested. >If you are interested please email me off list >CrestonCoyote@earthlink.net -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From TomE61 at aol.com Wed Mar 15 15:01:53 2006 From: TomE61 at aol.com (TomE61@aol.com) Date: Wed Mar 15 15:01:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Accessing Rockhounds Archives SEN Message-ID: <279.616736a.3149f6e1@aol.com> Its been a long long long time since I had the need, but I was wondering if someone could tell me how to get to the archives, for prior postings and how far back they go? Is there a convenient way to access this information? I get one submission from rockhounds a day, the print image summary version ( I don't even remember what THAT is called) and I don't see an option to get out of just the current listings. Thanks, Tom Russell --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at verizon.net Wed Mar 15 16:23:25 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Mar 15 16:23:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Accessing Rockhounds Archives SEN In-Reply-To: <279.616736a.3149f6e1@aol.com> References: <279.616736a.3149f6e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060315141959.02d49008@incoming.verizon.net> Click on the bottom line on every message you receive just under "List Home Page" and then when the Rockhounds home page comes up, click on "Message Archives (1996 to present)" at the left. Aloha, Kitty At 01:01 PM 3/15/2006, you wrote: > >Its been a long long long time since I had the need, but I was wondering if >someone could tell me how to get to the archives, for prior postings and how >far back they go? Is there a convenient way to access this information? > >I get one submission from rockhounds a day, the print image summary version >( I don't even remember what THAT is called) and I don't see an option to >get >out of just the current listings. > >Thanks, >Tom Russell _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Mar 15 17:22:42 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Mar 15 17:16:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Accessing Rockhounds Archives SEN References: <279.616736a.3149f6e1@aol.com> Message-ID: <4418BC5D.2A11@Tomaszewski.net> Tom, If you go to the link at the bottom of every message posted on the list http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html and click on 'Message Archives' along the left of that page you will find a searchable version of the Archives. Unfortunately, the Admin Team has only finished converting 2003 and 2004 to this new searchable format. And yes, we plan on getting the rest of the Archives converted to the new format. However, the Archives, from 2002 to current, are still available, but in a less friendly format, on the list server at http://lists.drizzle.com/pipermail/rockhounds/ The list server version lets you work month by month, searching by Thread, Subject, Author, or Date, or you can download an entire month as a Gzip'd Text file. It gives access by individual messages, or a downloadable monthly digest; the daily digest format is not available. Have fun in the archives -- there is a lot of good information to be found. Kreigh TomE61@aol.com wrote: > > > Its been a long long long time since I had the need, but I was wondering if > someone could tell me how to get to the archives, for prior postings and how > far back they go? Is there a convenient way to access this information? > > I get one submission from rockhounds a day, the print image summary version > ( I don't even remember what THAT is called) and I don't see an option to get > out of just the current listings. > > Thanks, > Tom Russell > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Mar 15 19:26:41 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Mar 15 19:20:07 2006 Subject: Searching for that special specimen {was: [Rockhounds] Life searches} References: <000701c647c3$dfdbda00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <005e01c647c5$b507e240$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <4418D95D.6C85@Tomaszewski.net> I'm always looking for a new mineral species to add to my collection, be it self collected, traded, or purchased. I'm always looking for a new location for a species I have. I'm always looking for another specimen of selenite from a new location. But 'my life' is looking for an entirely new species of mineral I can (hopefully self collect) identify, and name. I'm still having fun reviewing all my self collected, traded, and purchased specimens for what might have been overlooked. My collection, and number of species, continues to grow. Rockhounding is fun and educational, but work and life keep getting in the way of my systematic collecting. New minerals are discovered every year. If I keep Rockhounding, one of these years it will be my turn. Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > Well, my life is looking for any number of special rocks that I'd love to > find.. > ;-p > Sorry Alan, just couldn't help myself...... > Course that could just start off a whole nother thread. What is that one > special rock (or mineral, or fossil) that each of us is questing for? In > general I'd have to say mine is blue agate. Doesn't matter where, as long > as it's blue. Specifically, I'd like to find some gold in white quartz. > Jeanette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Goldstein" > Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant > > My life is looking for either a piece of amber (with a visible insect) for a > pendant or a ready-made pendant. Please contact me off-list if you have > something. deepskyspy@insightbb.com > > Alan G. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tam2819 at cox.net Wed Mar 15 19:25:46 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Wed Mar 15 19:25:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs Message-ID: Watching my local San Diego NBC Local News at both 4 and 6, imagine when I heard "San Diego connection to smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs!" The link is There was far more detail and video clips on the actual newscast. Basically the Chinese Government appealed to the US in 1999 for assistance in stopping the smuggling of Dinosaur Eggs. Uncovered hidden in a shed behind a residence in El Cajon, California were 143 boxes of stolen Dinosaur Eggs smuggled into the US as "Geological Specimens." Tom Kapitany 45, of Melbourne, Australia, pleaded guilty to this on Wednesday morning and was fined 20 thousand USD, and lost all confiscated material as well. It was stated he sold this at Rock and Mineral shows in and around California and Arizona. All seized material will be returned to China, where Kapitany had co-conspirators. I wonder how the Australian Government looks upon misdeeds such as these? I imagine the Tax Man may be very interested. Terrie From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Wed Mar 15 21:10:26 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Wed Mar 15 21:10:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] pebbly ol' rocks and fishes In-Reply-To: <031520060602.18285.4417AE1200086FDB0000476D216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: The nickel chromate stuff was used as ballast for ships and looks like very shiney galena in a crystalate form. The crystals vary in size and shape, and it breaks with little or no "bending". It "weathers" well and after 30 years or more of exposure to the elements, including aquarium water repeatedly treated with permanganate and methylene, retains its untarnished shiney appearance on the crystal faces. Recently at the U of Mobile museum project we found several 30 gallon badly deteriorated cans full of the nickel chromate. It was obviously smelted at some point, but solidified into beautiful crystals that look very much like galena or pyrite (no yellow - very chrome-like). I haven't scientifically tested the hardness, but it is metallic and does not scratch with the knife point on my Leatherman tool. Glenn From: pjmodreski@att.net ... nickel chromate, Jeanette? May I ask what that is or what it looks like? It sounds, (a) artificial, (b) possibly toxic to fish???, if that's what it really is. Lots of heavy metals there. 'Course if you've had it there a long time and fish are fine... Pete ------------- Original message from "Jeanette Wimpee" <geenet2@mchsi.com>: -------------- Good boy, Pete!  I kept a pretty nice sized chunk of Amethyst ( both purple and green flourite IMHO) in my aquarium along with some agate, nickle chromate, and of course the ubiquitous petrified wood. For a  long time, our rock collection "was" the decorative rocks in our many  aquariums. At least I got to look at them most every day. I didn't know how  to polish a rock then, so being wet made them look even better. The place  I worked at had big bins of "aquarium" rocks imported from all over the  world. I would look thru the new boxes of rocks when they came in, and find  interesting things to take home and NOT put in the aquariums. Then the  balance tilted to more rocks than fish after I left the fish business.  Jeanette ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Find just what you're after with the new, more precise MSN Search - try it now! ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From geenet2 at mchsi.com Wed Mar 15 22:18:46 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Wed Mar 15 22:18:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs References: Message-ID: <006a01c648c1$7bc2f4a0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Hmm......one of our club members came back from Tucson with two Hadrasaurus eggs. Are these the dinosaur eggs in question? Jeanette Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > Watching my local San Diego NBC Local News at both 4 and 6, imagine when I > heard "San Diego connection to smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs!" > > The link is There > was far more detail and video clips on the actual newscast. > > Basically the Chinese Government appealed to the US in 1999 for assistance > in stopping the smuggling of Dinosaur Eggs. > From jr50wv at yahoo.com Thu Mar 16 04:33:10 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Thu Mar 16 04:33:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] My pond and a fossil Message-ID: <20060316123310.10692.qmail@web34609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi: I have a tiny landscaping pond by the front door, 8x10 feet or so and 18 or 20 inches deep. Here in WV it rarely (if ever) freezes solid. I bought 3/$1 goldfish at Walmart and eased them into the pond many years ago. This pond is in oak woods, and spring and fall is full of leaves. So it's dark brown. Mostly amphibians live in it, since one Thanksgiving when a nephew threw a rock (the fossil) into it. After he was gone I used a rake to retreive the fossil. I must have stirred up the lone surviving goldfish, 'cause he died, frozen to death, just as he got to be pan-sized. But the frogs and salamanders do really well - there's already 6 or 8 egg masses from the wood frogs, and the tree frogs have started up already, too. Where I was going was, the dark brown (from leaves) doesn't seem to hurt the native amphibians at all, in fact, I expect without the leaves for cover, they wouldn't reproduce nearly as well. We do no maintenance at all for the benefit of the vertebrates, and only dredge the leaves out with great reluctance, wanting not to disturb the natives quietly living under the top layer of leaves. JR --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 05:46:46 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 05:47:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs References: <006a01c648c1$7bc2f4a0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <043201c64900$11339a60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> the 2 eggs your club member came back with are illegal. Period. ALL fossils (at least those purchased from commercial entities) are illegal...but I doubt they had anything to do with Kapitany. Several years ago, in California, Kapitany was using a preparator there to work on his eggs...among other things. One morning he was raided by customs, along with someone from the Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History.....they ended up seizing everything. All the illegal stuff (eggs, teeth, etc.) but also things that were not illegal....casts of ammonites, etc. Now, bear in my that this guy was only a preparator...doing work on someone else's material. And all of his legal material was siezed at the same time. So, you see, this is not the first time this has happened to Tom Kapitany. He is not a starnger to being on the wrong side of the law....ask any one of the dozens of dealers that have done business with him long enough and you will get the same answer that would probably cause me some legal problems by repeating here. There are years that I don't see him in Tucson because of the arrest warrants on his head....apparantly. The ONLY commercial entity selling Chinese fossils that are doing so legally are Charlie and Florence MacGovern of the Stone Company....EVERYONE else's are illegal. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette Wimpee" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gemcollectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > Hmm......one of our club members came back from Tucson with two > Hadrasaurus eggs. Are these the dinosaur eggs in question? > Jeanette > Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > > >> Watching my local San Diego NBC Local News at both 4 and 6, imagine when >> I heard "San Diego connection to smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs!" >> >> The link is There >> was far more detail and video clips on the actual newscast. >> >> Basically the Chinese Government appealed to the US in 1999 for >> assistance in stopping the smuggling of Dinosaur Eggs. >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 05:50:19 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 05:50:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs References: <006a01c648c1$7bc2f4a0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <043201c64900$11339a60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <045d01c64900$904311a0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> sorry, that should have said ALL fossils from China are illegal...not all fossils. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > the 2 eggs your club member came back with are illegal. Period. ALL > fossils (at least those purchased from commercial entities) are > illegal...but I doubt they had anything to do with Kapitany. > > Several years ago, in California, Kapitany was using a preparator there > to work on his eggs...among other things. One morning he was raided by > customs, along with someone from the Los Angeles County Museum of Natural > History.....they ended up seizing everything. All the illegal stuff > (eggs, teeth, etc.) but also things that were not illegal....casts of > ammonites, etc. Now, bear in my that this guy was only a > preparator...doing work on someone else's material. And all of his legal > material was siezed at the same time. > > So, you see, this is not the first time this has happened to Tom Kapitany. > He is not a starnger to being on the wrong side of the law....ask any one > of the dozens of dealers that have done business with him long enough and > you will get the same answer that would probably cause me some legal > problems by repeating here. There are years that I don't see him in > Tucson because of the arrest warrants on his head....apparantly. > > The ONLY commercial entity selling Chinese fossils that are doing so > legally are Charlie and Florence MacGovern of the Stone > Company....EVERYONE else's are illegal. > > Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeanette Wimpee" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gemcollectors" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > > >> Hmm......one of our club members came back from Tucson with two >> Hadrasaurus eggs. Are these the dinosaur eggs in question? >> Jeanette >> Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs >> >> >>> Watching my local San Diego NBC Local News at both 4 and 6, imagine when >>> I heard "San Diego connection to smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs!" >>> >>> The link is There >>> was far more detail and video clips on the actual newscast. >>> >>> Basically the Chinese Government appealed to the US in 1999 for >>> assistance in stopping the smuggling of Dinosaur Eggs. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com Thu Mar 16 06:08:58 2006 From: minnesota_pebble_pup at yahoo.com (minnesota_pebble_pup) Date: Thu Mar 16 06:09:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] My pond and a fossil In-Reply-To: <20060316123310.10692.qmail@web34609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060316140858.32377.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "J. R. Hodel" wrote: > Where I was going was, the dark brown (from leaves) > doesn't seem to hurt the native amphibians at all, Is that water color or color of algae? We do no > maintenance at all for the benefit of the > vertebrates, and only dredge the leaves out with > great reluctance, wanting not to disturb the natives > quietly living under the top layer of leaves. Very good plan for the natives. Jonna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 06:24:53 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 06:25:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] illegalities of natural history items References: Message-ID: <04c201c64905$64cc1bc0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Here's an interesting question for the list...when it comes to the laegalities of geological materials....... I don't know how many of you out there are serious enough mineral/fossil collectors to have anything this high end, but how many people have mineral or fossil specimens in their collections worth more than $400 that they bought themselves in Canada? How many people have specimens worth more than $1000 that they bought from a dealer that were from Canada??? If you do, chances are it's illegal. Canada has very stringent laws that protect its Cultural Heritage. Any specimen worth more than (unless they have changed the value) $500 CDN needs a permit. Do you know how many dealers out there are selling specimens from Canada complete with permits? For fossils, it's very few. For minerals, it's essentially non-existent. Most people are completely unaware exactly how difficult it is to ensure that, in a global economy, you are purchasing geological specimens that have been legally collected and exported. If you do any amount of collecting or purchasing, in the end, you are almost certainly going to be breaking or at least bending the law somewhere. In the end, it is the guys like Kapitany who are doing it by the truckload that they go after...seldom is it the guy who buys an egg at Tucson. But sometimes it is...so be careful. Just a humourous little anecdote about the legalities of Chinese fossils...... Years ago, 20/20 did an episode on the fossil trade...and talked almost exclusively about the illegalities of it. So much of it is actually legal, but nefarious fossil dealers make so much better news.....anyway, a Chinese dealer I know was featured as one of these bad guys...all it did was increase his business. He said it was the best thing that ever happened to him!!! Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:25 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > Watching my local San Diego NBC Local News at both 4 and 6, imagine when I > heard "San Diego connection to smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs!" > > The link is There > was far more detail and video clips on the actual newscast. > > Basically the Chinese Government appealed to the US in 1999 for assistance > in stopping the smuggling of Dinosaur Eggs. > > Uncovered hidden in a shed behind a residence in El Cajon, California were > 143 boxes of stolen Dinosaur Eggs smuggled into the US as "Geological > Specimens." > > Tom Kapitany 45, of Melbourne, Australia, pleaded guilty to this on > Wednesday morning and was fined 20 thousand USD, and lost all confiscated > material as well. It was stated he sold this at Rock and Mineral shows in > and around California and Arizona. > > All seized material will be returned to China, where Kapitany had > co-conspirators. > > I wonder how the Australian Government looks upon misdeeds such as these? > I imagine the Tax Man may be very interested. > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 06:32:13 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 06:32:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs References: Message-ID: <04da01c64906$6af48900$6802a8c0@heathercomp> in fact, it seems like this is just the tail end of that seizure from several years ago. The article states it goes back to 1999......so I think the seizure from his preparator a few years back is just part of this story.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 8:25 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > Watching my local San Diego NBC Local News at both 4 and 6, imagine when I > heard "San Diego connection to smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs!" > > The link is There > was far more detail and video clips on the actual newscast. > > Basically the Chinese Government appealed to the US in 1999 for assistance > in stopping the smuggling of Dinosaur Eggs. > > Uncovered hidden in a shed behind a residence in El Cajon, California were > 143 boxes of stolen Dinosaur Eggs smuggled into the US as "Geological > Specimens." > > Tom Kapitany 45, of Melbourne, Australia, pleaded guilty to this on > Wednesday morning and was fined 20 thousand USD, and lost all confiscated > material as well. It was stated he sold this at Rock and Mineral shows in > and around California and Arizona. > > All seized material will be returned to China, where Kapitany had > co-conspirators. > > I wonder how the Australian Government looks upon misdeeds such as these? > I imagine the Tax Man may be very interested. > Terrie > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pjmodreski at att.net Thu Mar 16 06:40:59 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Thu Mar 16 06:41:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] pebbly ol' rocks and fishes Message-ID: <031620061440.13117.441978F8000A4F510000333D216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi Glenn, I'm curious and puzzled, about what your "nickel chromate" really is. I'm thinking, it's not quite what you were told it was. Were the cans actually labelled that way, I wonder? Nickel and chromium are both fairly valuable, used as additives in making special steels, stainless steels in particular. They are much more valuable than just common "iron ore", and would certainly not just be used as ballast, even however many years ago those cans you found were packed up. Nickel chromate itself, would be a non-metallic looking compound, probably brightly colored (like lead chromate, which is the mineral crocoite, red-orange); I don't have my Handbook of Chemistry at hand right now, which would probably tell what color that compound would be--I don't think it occurs as a natural mineral. Possible what you have, instead, is some nickel-chrome alloy, a likely form that those metals might be used used as an additive in steelmaking. I've seen "ferrochrome", which is an iron-chromium alloy, used as such an additive. Other related possibilities, "chromite" is a black, shiny, metallic-looking oxide ore mineral, FeCr2O4, mined as chromium ore in South Africa and elsewhere, but it does not contain more than a trace of nickel. A synthetically produced compound could also be nickel-chrome spinel, NiCr2O4, which might be what your material is. "Nickel chromate" is not exactly the most proper name for that, but it might be what it could have been labelled; p roper nickel chromate would be NiCrO4, analogous to crocoite/lead chromate. Occasionally, people have brought me such or similar things that they've found, asking me if what they are, if they are natural minerals, or valuable metals, or meteorites, or what. You may have the "most uniquest" fish tank rock around, in there! Pete -------------- Original message from "Glenn Wimpee" : -------------- > The nickel chromate stuff was used as ballast for ships and looks like very > shiney galena in a crystalate form. The crystals vary in size and shape, and it > breaks with little or no "bending". It "weathers" well and after 30 years or > more of exposure to the elements, including aquarium water repeatedly treated > with permanganate and methylene, retains its untarnished shiney appearance on > the crystal faces. > > Recently at the U of Mobile museum project we found several 30 gallon badly > deteriorated cans full of the nickel chromate. It was obviously smelted at some > point, but solidified into beautiful crystals that look very much like galena or > pyrite (no yellow - very chrome-like). I haven't scientifically tested the > hardness, but it is metallic and does not scratch with the knife point on my > Leatherman tool. > > > > > Glenn > > > > > > > > > > From: pjmodreski@att.net > > > ... nickel chromate, Jeanette? May I ask what that is or what it looks like? It > sounds, (a) artificial, (b) possibly toxic to fish???, if that's what it really > is. Lots of heavy metals there. 'Course if you've had it there a long time and > fish are fine... > > Pete > ------------- Original message from "Jeanette Wimpee" : > -------------- > > Good boy, Pete! > > I kept a pretty nice sized chunk of Amethyst ( both purple and green > flourite IMHO) in my aquarium along with some agate, nickle chromate, and > of course the ubiquitous petrified wood. For a > long time, our rock collection "was" the decorative rocks in our many > aquariums. At least I got to look at them most every day. I didn't know > how > to polish a rock then, so being wet made them look even better. The place > I worked at had big bins of "aquarium" rocks imported from all over the > world. I would look thru the new boxes of rocks when they came in, and > find > interesting things to take home and NOT put in the aquariums. Then the > balance tilted to more rocks than fish after I left the fish business. > > Jeanette > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------ > Find just what you're after with the new, more precise MSN Search - try it now! > ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > text/html (html body -- converted) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tam2819 at cox.net Thu Mar 16 07:06:30 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Thu Mar 16 07:06:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs In-Reply-To: <04da01c64906$6af48900$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <04da01c64906$6af48900$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: Basically, it starts with a failure of personal ethics, then greed, followed by an avalanche of "me, mine, more." El Cajon, is not exactly a center of serious Earth Sciences. That kapitany found a backyard shed there, within which to store his plunder, stuns and disgruntles me. Just what do list members here see as a solution? Does the fascination of owning a Dinosaur Egg, justify purchasing illegally obtained items? We do see waves of "topic of the moment" activity here on list, usually both sides. How will this debate pan out? Does anyone outside of the Chinese Government, have the right to override the decision of nationalizing and protecting all Fossils? Does this fall into the Academia vs Amateur category, we recently eschewed here? Is a $20,000 fine just a slap on the wrist to kapitany? Will he be back in Tucson next year business as usual? Is there an answer, solution? Terrie From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 07:52:17 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 07:53:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] re: smuggled dinosaur eggs Message-ID: <050201c64911$9a2f7170$6802a8c0@heathercomp> see below fpr answers to your various points....... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teresa Masters" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com : A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Smuggled Chinese Dinosaur Eggs > Basically, it starts with a failure of personal ethics, then greed, > followed by an avalanche of "me, mine, more." _______________________________________ This is business, pure and simple. Me, mine, more has nothing to do with it as far as I can see. Dinosaur eggs are a commodity, like any other fossil material being sold by a dealer. Not to defend Tom, but he wasn't keeping these for himself, he was selling them. _____________________________________ > El Cajon, is not exactly a center of serious Earth Sciences. That > kapitany found a backyard shed there, within which to store his > plunder, stuns and disgruntles me. _______________________________________________ Why? Not in your backyard, Teresa? I wonder how many meth labs there are in your neighbourhood that you don't know about, and some smuggled dinosaur eggs "disgruntle" you. If El Cajon was a center for earth sciences would it bother you less??? He stored the stuff there because (if it has anything to do with this business from several years ago) his preparator was there, and there was a market locally for the product. This has been going on in your backyard for the better part of a decade...if not longer. I seriously doubt if it has impacted your quality of life. Unlike crack dealers, there is generally not any huge peripheral crime assocaited with fossil dealers. Living next door to a guy who sells smuggled dino eggs won't result in drive by shootings at your home. _________________________________________________ > > Just what do list members here see as a solution? Does the fascination > of owning a Dinosaur Egg, justify purchasing illegally obtained items? ______________________________________________________________ The solution is for China to change its Cultural Property laws. I doubt that will ever happen, at least while they are a communist state, but that's what needs to happen. As far as China is concerned, and I mean this literally, EVERYTHING that comes from China, or is made by someone Chinese, is Cultural Property. Where is the sense in that? Do you really think Kapitany is alone in getting this stuff out of China? No, he isn't. I guarantee you at one time or another there were government officials who wrote him export permits for the specimens and helped him to get them out of China....the permits are not worth the paper they are written on, but they look nice. Does anything happen to these officials who are bribed to let this stuff out of the country? Of course not. Think about the scenario for the moment...and it's the same with Morocco. You essentially buy an export permit, or smuggle the stuff out of the country. Once it's in the USA it becomes and issue, and then the courts get involved. Ultimately, it gets sent back to China, and the government gets the specimens. In the end, the government gets the pieces AND the Chinese who sold them make an income. Pretty sweet, huh? Dinosaur eggs are not uncommon. You want 1,000,000 of them??? give me a few years, and I could get them. They are used as building stones in stone walls in some villages, and 99% of them tell science nothing new than the ones in government collections...so why not legalise them and sell them? Fossil from Morocco are another example. Since Morocco signed the UNESCO treaties a couple of years ago, fossil exports are now illegal without permits....not sure if it is just verts, or all fossils. Does the government stop the stuff before it's sold? of course not....do you know how many villages out there derive their sole income from grinding away on little ammonites? selling dinosaur teeth? Why stop them from leaving the country when you can wait until they get to the USA, file a complaint, have them seized, and then have them returned to you....that way, the people in Erfound and Risanni still can make a living. There is ALWAYS going to be a market for illegal collectable things. Does it justify it? of course not...but I can guarantee you that it won't stop. There are things out there far more illegal than Chinese dinosaur eggs, and I see them/get offered them all of the time. The more people collect them, the more the numbers of them increase. You read media reports about these things and believe what the media says about them being "valuable". They may or may not be...but I can guarantee you that you won't get an unbiased appraisal of value from an academic when it comes to these eggs, and they are the ones that the media talks to...not guys like me who know the actual value of these things, and for the most part their value to science. If these eggs are so valuable, why is the Cjinese government doing little, if nothing, to go out and collect them for state collections? Because they are essentially worthless, and it costs more money to go out and collect them then they are worth. Besides...why go collect them when you can let someone else collect them, sort them and prepare them, ship them to the USA, and you can have the Americans ship them back to you in one nice clean box??? On a daily basis I can go onto EBAY and find 100 items that are far more valauble to science than a chinese hadrasaur egg. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > We do see waves of "topic of the moment" activity here on list, usually > both sides. How will this debate pan out? ______________________________________________________________________________ Like it always does. Tom will pay his fine and go home and start selling something else that he may or may not get into trouble for....something comes to mind even now. And everyone on this list will simply stop talking about this, and start talking about the next flavour of the day. _________________________________________________________________________________________ > > Does anyone outside of the Chinese Government, have the right to > override the decision of nationalizing and protecting all Fossils? ___________________________________ I doubt it. It is Beijing that makes these laws. _________________________________________________ > > Does this fall into the Academia vs Amateur category, we recently > eschewed here? _________________________________________________________________ No, because the Chinese government has recently asked for specimens back from academics. A few years back, a dealer I know had an unprepped psittacasaur (ceratopsian dinosaur) skeleton he prepped out. Low and behold!! it actually had soft tissue preservation of hair structures....almost like a coarse fur. First ever seen in a dinosaur. The specimen was sold to (I believe) the Senkenberg Museum in Germany, who also at the time had a very nice collection of birds from Liaoning, China. The Chinese told them they would never ask for the birds back, and that they were legally the property of the museum. Well, as soon as the Chinese found out about the hairy psittacasaur, not only did they ask for it back, but they also asked for the birds back. Not asked...demanded. _______________________________________________________________________ > > Is a $20,000 fine just a slap on the wrist to kapitany? Will he be back > in Tucson next year business as usual? ______________________________________ Sure it'sa slap on the wrist. But that, coupled with his loss of inventory, his legal bills, and all of the other costs associated with this particular mess will hurt him...although his pockets seem to be quite deep at times. It will slow him down, but it won't put him out of business. _____________________________________________ > > Is there an answer, solution? sure, get the world to lose interest in buying and collecting minerals and fossils. Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Cycadwood at aol.com Thu Mar 16 08:22:27 2006 From: Cycadwood at aol.com (Cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 16 08:22:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] fossil wood book ad Message-ID: Frank Daniels and Dick Dayvault are pleased to announce the availability of their new book: Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood WESTERN COLORADO PUBLISHING COMPANY RE: New Petrified Wood Book Dear Gem/Mineral/Fossil Enthusiast: I think you will like this new book. We have been working on it for seven years. My co-author, geologist Dick Dayvault, has been an editor with Rocks & Minerals magazine for thirty years. We were able to keep the cost close to the first book even though this book is a lot bigger?it has 1600 color photographs, 456 pages, and weighs 7 1/2 pounds. It is a hardcover book printed and bound in Canada on 100% acid-free paper. Many of the subjects addressed are the result of feedback from my first book. People wanted more information on wood identification, more details about the mineralogy of fossil wood, and, of course, more pictures of beautiful specimens. Here it is! I am confident you will love it. Call with credit card information or send credit card information or a check. You can use the form below if you want. I?ll get the book out right away by Priority Mail, and I?ll pay the postage (which is not cheap for a 7 1/2 pound book). Thanks! Frank J. Daniels 2004 inductee to the National Rockhound and Lapidary Hall of Fame ANCIENT FORESTS: A CLOSER LOOK AT FOSSIL WOOD The most intriguing, beautiful, and informative fossil wood book of all time, exploring the subject with images to illustrate each point ? with Scanning Electron Microscope images, digital micro images, macro photographs, and medium format photographs. Frank Daniels and geologist Dick Dayvault team up to explore the intricacies of fossil wood by leading the reader on an expedition into the micro world of fossil wood mineralization and cell structures. 1600 color photographs, charts, and diagrams, including 438 fossil wood micro images, 40 Geologic Landscapes ?, and 46 thin section micrographs from modern conifers and hardwoods. Specimen photographs from worldwide locations, including numerous woods, cones, ferns, cycads, and short shoots, and including Acrostichum, Araucaria mirabilis, Araucarioxylon, Aurealcaulis moorei, Behuninia provoensis, Calamites, Carpolithus radiatus, Carporichnus bertheorum, Carya, Casuarina, Cupressinoxylon, Cyathodendron texanum, cycadeoid, Dadoxylon, Ginkgo, Grammatopteris, Hermanophyton glismannii, Hermanophyton taylorii, Jensensispermum redmondi, Juglans, Juniperus, Metasequoia, Osmunda, Palmoxylon, Pararaucaria, Pityoxylon, Platanoxylon, Podocarpoxylon, Protoyucca shadishii, Psaronius, Quercus, Rhexoxylon, Schilderia adamanica, Sequoia, Steinerocaulis radiatus, Taxodioxylon, Tempskya, Tietea singularis, Trochodendron, Ulmus, and Woodworthia arizonica. Fossil wood specimens from Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Germany, Gondwana, Great Britain, Greece, Indonesia, Malagasy Republic, Pangea, Paraguay, Turkey and Zimbabwe; and from Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oregon, Texas, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming in the United States. Major chapters address Fossil Wood Structure and Identification, The Process of Wood Transformation to Stone, Fossil Woods from the Western United States and around the World, and 3 Major Museum Collections of Fossil Woods. Order directly from the publisher for $89.95 US. Colorado residents add $2.61 state tax. Shipping and handling FREE for limited time. Send check or call with Visa/MasterCard information. PayPal to _cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) . Add $10 for air parcel post to Canada. Add $15 for ground transportation anywhere else within the inhabited portions of the planet. Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, CO 81503-9522 _www.westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (http://www.westerncoloradopublishing.com/) 970.242.5255 ??????????????????????????????????? Yes, please rush my copy of Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood, by Frank J. Daniels and Richard D. Dayvault. Payment of $89.95 enclosed (plus $2.61 tax for Colorado residents). FREE shipping and handling in United States. Name__________________________________________________________________ street address or PO Box______________________________________________________________ city______________________________________state_____________ZIP__________ phone number ___________________________________________________________ Visa/MasterCard # ____________________________________________exp________ signature__________________________________________________ Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From JWachsmuth at gmx.de Thu Mar 16 08:46:48 2006 From: JWachsmuth at gmx.de (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Thu Mar 16 08:46:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Samsonite, warning References: Message-ID: <44199678.E3B5C946@gmx.de> Hello, last sunday several specimens of samsonite from St. Andreasberg, Harz, were stolen from the university museum in M?nster, Germany. These excellent specimens came from the collection of A. Werner who published this species in 1910. I think this should be a warning to all honest collectors. Think twice (or more often) before buying any samsonite specimens whose origin cannot be proven beyond doubt. It is impossible to get new material of this species from this locality. Regards, J?rgen Wachsmuth Ulm - Germany From kahako at verizon.net Thu Mar 16 10:09:18 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Mar 16 10:09:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Samsonite, warning In-Reply-To: <44199678.E3B5C946@gmx.de> References: <44199678.E3B5C946@gmx.de> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060316075853.0375ef68@incoming.verizon.net> Hi Jurgen, When I saw the Subject on your message I thought you were going to tell us to beware of faulty luggage. Shows how little I know about mineral names. So I googled it, and found a website that gives a profile of BOTH the mineral and the luggage. :) http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1049195 Aloha, Kitty At 06:46 AM 3/16/2006, you wrote: >Hello, > >last sunday several specimens of samsonite from St. Andreasberg, Harz, >were stolen from the university museum >in M?nster, Germany. These excellent specimens came from the collection of >A. Werner who published this >species in 1910. > >I think this should be a warning to all honest collectors. Think twice (or >more often) before buying any >samsonite specimens whose origin cannot be proven beyond doubt. It is >impossible to get new material of this >species from this locality. > >Regards, > >J?rgen Wachsmuth >Ulm - Germany From geenet2 at mchsi.com Thu Mar 16 17:12:13 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Thu Mar 16 17:13:22 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] My pond and the Ho House... References: <20060316123310.10692.qmail@web34609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c6495f$f986f550$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> I have a "frog" pond too. Started out as a fish pond about 18 years ago, but the snakes kept eating any fish we bought to put in it. We still feed the snakes every once in a while, but mostly it's gone to Nature. This is actually OT too, because a portion of our rock collection is lining the pond(s) (There are 3 interconnected sort of). Every state we go to, we pick up a large enough rock be a good pond liner rock. So just about all the rocks have a story behind them, including the paving stones collected from the local cathouse after it was demolished. Heh, heh, heh, a LOT of history behind THOSE.... Nature does a beautiful job of balancing a neglected pool of water if man will just leave it alone. It's people who insist on changing the water, scrubbing everything clean, overstocking the fish, and over feeding that create a yukky mess. Spring is a very stressful time for pond fish, tho. I found that a lot of my customers suffered fish losses about this time-- about the time the owner's notice it's spring and get outside and start messing with the pond. If ever a fish is going to croak, it'll usually be when the weather starts warming up and the whole ecosystem is undergoing a lot of chemical and biological changes. It's so easy tho to blame manmade disasters on a little rock. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. R. Hodel" To: Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:33 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] My pond and a fossil > Hi: > > I have a tiny landscaping pond by the front door, 8x10 feet or so and 18 > or 20 inches deep. Here in WV it rarely (if ever) freezes solid. > > I bought 3/$1 goldfish at Walmart and eased them into the pond many years > ago. > > This pond is in oak woods, and spring and fall is full of leaves. So it's > dark brown. > > Mostly amphibians live in it, since one Thanksgiving when a nephew threw a > rock (the fossil) into it. After he was gone I used a rake to retreive > the fossil. I must have stirred up the lone surviving goldfish, 'cause he > died, frozen to death, just as he got to be pan-sized. > > But the frogs and salamanders do really well - there's already 6 or 8 egg > masses from the wood frogs, and the tree frogs have started up already, > too. > > Where I was going was, the dark brown (from leaves) doesn't seem to hurt > the native amphibians at all, in fact, I expect without the leaves for > cover, they wouldn't reproduce nearly as well. We do no maintenance at > all for the benefit of the vertebrates, and only dredge the leaves out > with great reluctance, wanting not to disturb the natives quietly living > under the top layer of leaves. > > JR From rockcurrier at cs.com Thu Mar 16 19:32:49 2006 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Thu Mar 16 19:15:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <200603170204.k2H24fKL027851@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <005b01c64973$77bb2d20$6b01a8c0@rock3> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing documents to prove that they are legal? What about various kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are they also illegal? I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special treatment and protection for future generations. Do these governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The foundations of all museum collections that I know about are from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal minerals and fossils from entering private and public collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. What you say? Don't be rediculous? Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They have a terrible track record of doing that. How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local museums have documentation showing that they were legally collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? From rockcurrier at cs.com Thu Mar 16 19:34:11 2006 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Thu Mar 16 19:16:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <200603170204.k2H24fKL027851@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <005c01c64973$a8c3f8c0$6b01a8c0@rock3> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing documents to prove that they are legal? What about various kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are they also illegal? I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special treatment and protection for future generations. Do these governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The foundations of all museum collections that I know about are from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal minerals and fossils from entering private and public collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. What you say? Don't be rediculous? Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They have a terrible track record of doing that. How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local museums have documentation showing that they were legally collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Mar 16 19:45:34 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Mar 16 19:45:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <200603170204.k2H24fKL027851@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <005b01c64973$77bb2d20$6b01a8c0@rock3> Message-ID: <007e01c64975$3f7e2230$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> It seems to me that minerals are not given the same weight as cultural property as fossils. Correct me if I am wrong, but while Australia has stringent guidelines for exporting fossils, there are none for minerals. Fossils can't be exported from Mexico, but minerals can? Does the Canadian government restrict all geological specimens to the over $500 limit -- or just fossils? If so, I wonder how many railroad cars or ship's holds containing crushed limestone are waived? I'm not in the international shipping business -- perhaps there is a tax or extra paperwork on that material. Certainly a bulk quantity of limestone is work more than $500. One of my volunteers use to work for Essroc Cement and was in charge of logistics for all the company's U.S. and Canadian quarries and cement plants. He might know, although he retired 10 years ago, so the regulations may have changed. I'm not hearing about international export rules regarding non-gem minerals. For some odd reason, fossils are considered cultural treasures (like Pandas and Platypus), while fluorite, quartz, scheelite and natrolite are not. Go figure... Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rock Currier" To: Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:32 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export certain kinds of > fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read hominid or dinosaur fossils), > but will gladly sell you as many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, > as > you want and export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction > on > those unless things have changed during the last year. Is the one person > selling legal Chinese fossils providing documents to prove that they are > legal? What about various kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in > limestone? What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. > Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are they also > illegal? > > I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 has Canadian > Government permit before they are sold to foreign cutters. Perhaps > diamonds > are not considered a national treasure. It would on the face of it seem > ridiculous not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is > found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian government > that will know its value? The answer is of course not. > > If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or minerals or > requiring a permit before export, the implication is that they consider > them > valuable and worthy of special treatment and protection for future > generations. Do these governments make provisions to protect fossils from > natural weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to protect > valuable specimens when they are found rather than running them through > the > crusher? It seems that such laws will only cause mining companies to be > sure > that everything is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved > in more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The foundations of > all museum collections that I know about are from private collections, and > in a rigorous sense, most of that material is stolen material. How can we > prevent illegal minerals and fossils from entering private and public > collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them that do not > have > proper documentation to be illegal and subject to seizure by the police. > We > can also sent up a system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen > is > found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to set up a chain > of custody documentation for the specimen. What you say? Don't be > rediculous? > > Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens will take > the > best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on our institutions to take > care > of them in the long term. They have a terrible track record of doing that. > How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local museums have > documentation showing that they were legally collected? Do we really want > to > go down this path of craziness? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Mar 16 19:55:24 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Mar 16 19:55:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dealer Pleads in Egg Case (and Juravenator) Message-ID: <441A3327.10A2@Tomaszewski.net> My local paper, The Grand Rapids Press, had a story tonight about Tamas Kapitany pleading guilty to concealing the country origin of hundreds of dinosaur egg fossils he obtained from China and tried to sell at Southwest gem and mineral shows. There was even a picture of the seized eggs. "Thomas" got a year probation, a $20,000 fine, and forfeited the specimens under the terms of a plea deal. He admitted writing Australia instead of China as the location. Some eggs were sold. I found the story online at http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060316-9999-1m16eggs.html Next to the Kapitany story was one about Juravenator starki, a featherless dinosaur that is raising questions. I found the story online at http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060316/NEWS06/603160464/1012 Reading my newspaper is always more fun when I find articles about my hobby. Kreigh From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Mar 16 20:02:59 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu Mar 16 20:02:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils In-Reply-To: <005b01c64973$77bb2d20$6b01a8c0@rock3> Message-ID: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a "scientist" and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by studying and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do something about it" Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Rock Currier > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export > certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read > hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as > many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and > export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction > on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is > the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing > documents to prove that they are legal? What about various > kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? > What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. > Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are > they also illegal? > > I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 > has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to > foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a > national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous > not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is > found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian > government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. > > If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or > minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication > is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special > treatment and protection for future generations. Do these > governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural > weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to > protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than > running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws > will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything > is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in > more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The > foundations of all museum collections that I know about are > from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of > that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal > minerals and fossils from entering private and public > collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them > that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and > subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a > system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is > found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to > set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. > What you say? Don't be rediculous? > > Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens > will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on > our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They > have a terrible track record of doing that. > How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local > museums have documentation showing that they were legally > collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 20:11:23 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 20:11:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <200603170204.k2H24fKL027851@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <005b01c64973$77bb2d20$6b01a8c0@rock3> Message-ID: <003901c64978$da846250$6802a8c0@heathercomp> see below ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rock Currier" To: Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:32 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export certain kinds of > fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read hominid or dinosaur fossils), > but will gladly sell you as many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, > as > you want and export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction > on > those unless things have changed during the last year. Is the one person > selling legal Chinese fossils providing documents to prove that they are > legal? What about various kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in > limestone? What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. > Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are they also > illegal? ____________________________________________ according to the academics I have spoken to, ALL fossils from China are illegal. According to the Canadian government UNESCO authority I spoke to, all minerals as well as fossils from China are illegal. The Chinese government will almost never go to any trouble as far as protesting their common mineral and fossil and antique cultural items being sold in another country, but they make a stink when it comes to the "big important stuff". But, as I said....ALL FOSSILS AND MINERALS FROM CHINA ARE ILLEGAL UNDER UNESCO....from what I have been told by government officials and paleontologists. Just because you see them for sale and no one making a fuss about them doesn't mean they are legal. __________________________________________________________________ > > I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 has Canadian > Government permit before they are sold to foreign cutters. Perhaps > diamonds > are not considered a national treasure. It would on the face of it seem > ridiculous not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is > found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian government > that will know its value? The answer is of course not. __________________________________ Diamonds would not fall under the same category...they would fall under the same category as any other mineral resource. The government doesn't require export permits for limestone from Ontario....yet all that is is Ordovician crinoids, trilobites, etc. And yes...you find a completely new mineral in Mt Ste Hillaire, and you would be breaking the law by taking it out of Canada. If it is new to science you will NEVER get a permit for it....if it is one of many, you may. All the permits do is ensure that the Canadian government gets first crack at scientifically important specimens, at fair market value. If you legally owned it, the government would compensate you for it...they don't just seize specimens. And to determine value, they have things appraised by experts.... _____________________________________________________________ > > If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or minerals or > requiring a permit before export, the implication is that they consider > them > valuable and worthy of special treatment and protection for future > generations. Do these governments make provisions to protect fossils from > natural weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to protect > valuable specimens when they are found rather than running them through > the > crusher? It seems that such laws will only cause mining companies to be > sure > that everything is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved > in more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The foundations of > all museum collections that I know about are from private collections, and > in a rigorous sense, most of that material is stolen material. How can we > prevent illegal minerals and fossils from entering private and public > collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them that do not > have > proper documentation to be illegal and subject to seizure by the police. > We > can also sent up a system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen > is > found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to set up a chain > of custody documentation for the specimen. What you say? Don't be > rediculous? > > Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens will take > the > best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on our institutions to take > care > of them in the long term. They have a terrible track record of doing that. > How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local museums have > documentation showing that they were legally collected? Do we really want > to > go down this path of craziness? > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 20:18:20 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 20:18:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <200603170204.k2H24fKL027851@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <005b01c64973$77bb2d20$6b01a8c0@rock3> <007e01c64975$3f7e2230$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <004301c64979$d369baf0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> again, see below ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rock Currier" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > It seems to me that minerals are not given the same weight as cultural > property as fossils. Correct me if I am wrong, but while Australia has > stringent guidelines for exporting fossils, there are none for minerals. > Fossils can't be exported from Mexico, but minerals can? ___________________________________________________________ each country has different laws...but yes, most countries seem to care more about the most common fossil than they do about the rarest of minerals...and they care more about the most common vert fossil than they do about the rarest invertebrate fossils......some countries have huge restrictions on meteorites.....some minerals from Aus need permits (from what I have been told). Not sure about Mexico. _______________________________________________________________________ > > Does the Canadian government restrict all geological specimens to the over > $500 limit -- or just fossils? If so, I wonder how many railroad cars or > ship's holds containing crushed limestone are waived? I'm not in the > international shipping business -- perhaps there is a tax or extra > paperwork on that material. Certainly a bulk quantity of limestone is work > more than $500. One of my volunteers use to work for Essroc Cement and was > in charge of logistics for all the company's U.S. and Canadian quarries > and cement plants. He might know, although he retired 10 years ago, so the > regulations may have changed. ________________________________________________________ I'll see if I can dig up the wording...but it is both minerals and fossils of a $500 (or so) CDN value, type specimens...certain bulk materials. But no, grind up 1,000,000 trilobites in limestone, and that is ok. With the case of Canada Fossils and Placenticeras ammonites, they have a blanket export permit so they don't have to fill out permits for every specimen. ___________________________________________________________ > > I'm not hearing about international export rules regarding non-gem > minerals. For some odd reason, fossils are considered cultural treasures > (like Pandas and Platypus), while fluorite, quartz, scheelite and > natrolite are not. Go figure... > > Alan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rock Currier" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:32 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export certain kinds of >> fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read hominid or dinosaur fossils), >> but will gladly sell you as many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, >> as >> you want and export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >> on >> those unless things have changed during the last year. Is the one person >> selling legal Chinese fossils providing documents to prove that they are >> legal? What about various kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in >> limestone? What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are they also >> illegal? >> >> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 has >> Canadian >> Government permit before they are sold to foreign cutters. Perhaps >> diamonds >> are not considered a national treasure. It would on the face of it seem >> ridiculous not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian government >> that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >> >> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or minerals or >> requiring a permit before export, the implication is that they consider >> them >> valuable and worthy of special treatment and protection for future >> generations. Do these governments make provisions to protect fossils from >> natural weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to protect >> valuable specimens when they are found rather than running them through >> the >> crusher? It seems that such laws will only cause mining companies to be >> sure >> that everything is blown into little bits rather than have to get >> involved >> in more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The foundations >> of >> all museum collections that I know about are from private collections, >> and >> in a rigorous sense, most of that material is stolen material. How can we >> prevent illegal minerals and fossils from entering private and public >> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them that do not >> have >> proper documentation to be illegal and subject to seizure by the police. >> We >> can also sent up a system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen >> is >> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to set up a >> chain >> of custody documentation for the specimen. What you say? Don't be >> rediculous? >> >> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens will take >> the >> best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on our institutions to take >> care >> of them in the long term. They have a terrible track record of doing >> that. >> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local museums have >> documentation showing that they were legally collected? Do we really want >> to >> go down this path of craziness? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 20:22:28 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 20:24:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: <004a01c6497a$67156150$6802a8c0@heathercomp> it's actually not ridiculous, at least in Canada. It's quite fair. You have a fossil worth $1000 you want to sell. It should be in a museum, but you have a customer for it. You fill out a permit, and: a) the government decides it is too valuable to leave th country, that it should be in a national or regional collection, so you are paid fair market value for it b) the government decides that it has enough examples of this particular thing, you get your export permit, and you sell it and get your money. Ina ll of the years I filled out permits for fossils, never ONCE did I have a permit denied. Out of the almost 1000 permits filled out every year (on average) 3-4 are blocked...and the vast majority of those are archaeological items. tell me how this is bad? giving a museum first crack at something? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tommy Armstrong" To: "'Rock Currier'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:02 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that > gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a > "scientist" > and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by > studying > and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under > whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. > > This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. > > Tommy Armstrong > PO Box 484 > Lillington, NC 27546 > http://www.brickengraver.com > > "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the > consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do > something about it" > Walker Percy > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >> Rock Currier >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM >> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >> Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >> >> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export >> certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read >> hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as >> many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and >> export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >> on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is >> the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing >> documents to prove that they are legal? What about various >> kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? >> What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are >> they also illegal? >> >> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 >> has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to >> foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a >> national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous >> not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian >> government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >> >> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or >> minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication >> is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special >> treatment and protection for future generations. Do these >> governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural >> weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to >> protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than >> running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws >> will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything >> is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in >> more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The >> foundations of all museum collections that I know about are >> from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of >> that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal >> minerals and fossils from entering private and public >> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them >> that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and >> subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a >> system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is >> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to >> set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. >> What you say? Don't be rediculous? >> >> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens >> will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on >> our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They >> have a terrible track record of doing that. >> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local >> museums have documentation showing that they were legally >> collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 20:25:02 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 20:25:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <200603170204.k2H24fKL027851@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <005b01c64973$77bb2d20$6b01a8c0@rock3> <007e01c64975$3f7e2230$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <004301c64979$d369baf0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <005101c6497a$c2cf4880$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Here are the Canadian regs. Probably quite similar to a lot of countries: How many of you mineral dealers out there have ever bought a mineral specimen from a Canadian dealer for $2000 CDN and had a permit with it? I have only known of one dealer who has applied for permits...Rod Tyson. ___________________________________________________ Mineralogy 2. Mineral specimens, whether composed of a single mineral, a part of a mineral or an aggregate of minerals, recovered from the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other internal waters of Canada, as follows: (a) a type mineral specimen or a described mineral specimen of any value; (b) a single mineral specimen of a fair market value in Canada of more than $2,000; (c) a collection of 10 or more mineral specimens of a fair market value in Canada of more than $5,000 recovered from a specific mine, quarry or locality; (d) mineral specimens in bulk, recovered from a specific mineral occurrence, weighing 225 kg (500 pounds) or more of any value; and (e) meteorites and tektites of any value. SOR/95-170, s. 1; SOR/97-159, s. 2; SOR/2005-260, s. 4(F). Palaeontology 3. Palaeontological specimens recovered from the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other internal waters of Canada, as follows: (a) a type fossil specimen of any value; (b) fossil amber of any value; (c) a vertebrate fossil specimen of a fair market value in Canada of more than $500; (d) an invertebrate fossil specimen of a fair market value in Canada of more than $500; (e) specimens in bulk weighing 11.25 kg (25 pounds) or more of vertebrate fossils or vertebrate trace fossils of any value; and (f) specimens in bulk weighing 22.5 kg (50 pounds) or more, recovered from a specific outcrop, quarry or locality, that include one or more specimens of any value of the following, namely, (i) invertebrate fossils, (ii) plant fossils, or (iii) fossiliferous rock containing plant fossils or invertebrate fossils. SOR/95-170, s. 1; SOR/97-159, s. 3; SOR/2005-260, s. 5(F). Archaeology 4. (1) An archaeological object of any value recovered from the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other internal waters of Canada not less than 75 years after its burial, concealment or abandonment if the object is an artifact or organic remains, including human remains, associated with or representative of historic or prehistoric cultures. (2) Without restricting the generality of subitem (1), archaeological objects described in that subitem include (a) artifacts that relate to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada, namely, (i) arrow heads, harpoon heads and such other projectile points used as hunting implements, (ii) adzes, axes, awls, celts, chisels and such other tools and agricultural implements, (iii) clubs, tomahawks and such other weapons, (iv) harpoon heads, fish hooks, sinkers, and such other fishing implements, (v) pipes, vessels, potsherds and such other pottery, (vi) effigies, rock drawings, wampum and such other ceremonial and religious articles, and (vii) beads, articles of adornment and such other objects used as trading goods; (b) artifacts that relate to the progressive exploration, occupation, defence and development of the territory that is now Canada by non-aboriginal peoples, namely, (i) arms, accoutrements, fragments of uniforms, buckles, badges, buttons, and such other objects related to military activity, (ii) beads, articles of adornment and such other objects used as trading goods associated with the fur trade, (iii) hunting, fishing and trapping implements, (iv) ordnance, ship's gear, anchors and such other objects related to naval activity, (v) religious paraphernalia and such other objects related to missionary activity, (vi) coins, cargo from shipwrecks or sunken ships and such other objects related to transportation, supply and commerce, (vii) utensils, implements, tools, weapons, household articles and such other objects related to early settlement and pioneer life, and (viii) machinery and such other objects related to manufacture and industry; and (c) organic remains associated with or representative of historic or prehistoric cultures. SOR/86-329, s. 2; SOR/97-159, s. 4; SOR/2005-260, s. 6. From tfa at brickengraver.com Thu Mar 16 21:50:09 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Thu Mar 16 21:50:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils In-Reply-To: <005101c6497a$c2cf4880$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Well from a legal standpoint the wording " a single mineral specimen of a fair market value in Canada of more than $2,000" does not mean the true fair market value since the vast number of possible collectors (and museums for that matter), that would want such a specimen probably reside outside Canada. So such wording seems to me to indicate that "fair value" would be only based on the value if it had to stay in Canada. And I am still at a loss as why a mineral (or fossil for that matter) specimen that came out of a privately owned mine "should be in a museum", why should the "museum get first crack at something"? It does not say a fair market value in 2000 Canadian dollars-but the fair market value in the county of Canada. Not what I or many others might see as a "fair market value". "ALL FOSSILS AND MINERALS FROM CHINA ARE ILLEGAL UNDER UNESCO.." But I ask who the heck is UNESCO to supplant the laws and regulations of a sovereign country. It is up to China to determine what is legal and not legal--what to enforce or not to enforce--not UNESCO, unless of course they agreed to abide by such an international body. And even if they agreed to abide by it and changed their mind--it is still their sovereign right to do so. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do something about it" Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of michael > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:25 PM > To: michael; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock > and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > Here are the Canadian regs. Probably quite similar to a lot > of countries: > > How many of you mineral dealers out there have ever bought a > mineral specimen from a Canadian dealer for $2000 CDN and had > a permit with it? I have only known of one dealer who has > applied for permits...Rod Tyson. > > ___________________________________________________ > > Mineralogy > > 2. Mineral specimens, whether composed of a single mineral, a > part of a mineral or an aggregate of minerals, recovered from > the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the > inland or other internal waters of Canada, as follows: > > (a) a type mineral specimen or a described mineral specimen > of any value; > > (b) a single mineral specimen of a fair market value in > Canada of more than $2,000; > > (c) a collection of 10 or more mineral specimens of a fair > market value in Canada of more than $5,000 recovered from a > specific mine, quarry or locality; > > (d) mineral specimens in bulk, recovered from a specific > mineral occurrence, weighing 225 kg (500 pounds) or more of > any value; and > > (e) meteorites and tektites of any value. > > SOR/95-170, s. 1; SOR/97-159, s. 2; SOR/2005-260, s. 4(F). > > Palaeontology > > 3. Palaeontological specimens recovered from the soil of > Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other > internal waters of Canada, as follows: > > (a) a type fossil specimen of any value; > > (b) fossil amber of any value; > > (c) a vertebrate fossil specimen of a fair market value in > Canada of more than $500; > > (d) an invertebrate fossil specimen of a fair market value in > Canada of more than $500; > > (e) specimens in bulk weighing 11.25 kg (25 pounds) or more > of vertebrate fossils or vertebrate trace fossils of any value; and > > (f) specimens in bulk weighing 22.5 kg (50 pounds) or more, > recovered from a specific outcrop, quarry or locality, that > include one or more specimens of any value of the following, namely, > > (i) invertebrate fossils, > > (ii) plant fossils, or > > (iii) fossiliferous rock containing plant fossils or > invertebrate fossils. > > SOR/95-170, s. 1; SOR/97-159, s. 3; SOR/2005-260, s. 5(F). > > Archaeology > > 4. (1) An archaeological object of any value recovered from > the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the > inland or other internal waters of Canada not less than 75 > years after its burial, concealment or abandonment if the > object is an artifact or organic remains, including human > remains, associated with or representative of historic or > prehistoric cultures. > > (2) Without restricting the generality of subitem (1), > archaeological objects described in that subitem include > > (a) artifacts that relate to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada, namely, > > (i) arrow heads, harpoon heads and such other projectile > points used as hunting implements, > > (ii) adzes, axes, awls, celts, chisels and such other tools > and agricultural implements, > > (iii) clubs, tomahawks and such other weapons, > > (iv) harpoon heads, fish hooks, sinkers, and such other > fishing implements, > > (v) pipes, vessels, potsherds and such other pottery, > > (vi) effigies, rock drawings, wampum and such other > ceremonial and religious articles, and > > (vii) beads, articles of adornment and such other objects > used as trading goods; > > (b) artifacts that relate to the progressive exploration, > occupation, defence and development of the territory that is > now Canada by non-aboriginal peoples, namely, > > (i) arms, accoutrements, fragments of uniforms, buckles, > badges, buttons, and such other objects related to military activity, > > (ii) beads, articles of adornment and such other objects used > as trading goods associated with the fur trade, > > (iii) hunting, fishing and trapping implements, > > (iv) ordnance, ship's gear, anchors and such other objects > related to naval activity, > > (v) religious paraphernalia and such other objects related to > missionary activity, > > (vi) coins, cargo from shipwrecks or sunken ships and such > other objects related to transportation, supply and commerce, > > (vii) utensils, implements, tools, weapons, household > articles and such other objects related to early settlement > and pioneer life, and > > (viii) machinery and such other objects related to > manufacture and industry; and > > (c) organic remains associated with or representative of > historic or prehistoric cultures. > > SOR/86-329, s. 2; SOR/97-159, s. 4; SOR/2005-260, s. 6. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 22:39:54 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 22:41:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Message-ID: <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> It's very simple.....I will give you an example. Someone recently had a number of antiques that were cultural property....something I believe from a shipwreck. they had them sold for several millions of dollars US. when they applied for the permit, it was blocked, and the Canadian government had xx days to come up with the same amount of money to buy the items. They did...they did a combo of cash/tax benefits. If they could not have come up with the cash, they items would have been permitted and then sold outside the country. All applying for a permit does is give the Canadian government the first opportunity to come up with the value of the material. The person filling out the permit indicates the value...if you have something worth $xxxx, that's the number (as I understand it) that the Canadian government has to match. I have never heard of a case where a value was hugely exaggerated on a permit to keep the government from buying it. And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not possibly hope to explain it to you...but let me try anyway. . If you have some crappy ceraurus from Ontario (trilobite) they aren't going to stop you from exporting it. If you have the most attractive ceraurus ever found, it is not a valid scientific reason to block the export. If you have a completely new ceraurus that the government does not have an example of in a Canadian museum somewhere, then they will block the export because it is new. If you have 5 of them, they may block a couple, compensate you for them, and let you export the rest. You are familiar with the mineral sugilite? Almost exclusively, it is found as a massive purple gemstone, in Africa. It has, in this form, no crystal structure. But like a lot of massive minerals, it does VERY rarely exist crystallized. I know it originally came from Japan in very small hexagonal crystals, but I am not sure where else it has been found crystallized. To my knowledge, 1 small 3-4mm hexagonal crystal of sugilite was found in Mt Ste Hillaire. That's it. 1 crystal. Are you telling me that that specimen shouldn't be in a museum?, and that in should be in the collection of some American or German. Is it not important and unique enough??? There is nothing stopping the person who found it from keeping it, or doing whatever he wants with it within the country. But, if he is going to export it, then the government gets first crack at it for the price he quoted some dealer in the states, or Europe...or wherever. How you can't see the fairness of this or the importance of these laws I really can't understand. I assume you live in the USA? Well, look at it from your country's perspective. You have 200+ years of private property laws that some people are militant about. You find a 100% complete, unknown to science, Dromaeosaur (dinosaur) on your ranch and decide to sell it to the Japanese because they will give you 10 million dollars. There is nothing stopping you from doing that because it is yours, and there are no laws prohibiting you from moving this out of the USA if you own the specimen. Out of a sense of civic duty, wouldn't you feel better if you at least gave your home/country/government the first opportunity to buy it at the same price and display it in a US museum for all Americans to see and learn from???? And obviously, the $2000 figure is meant to reflect Canadian dollars...not US dollars, or Irish pounds, or Japanese Yen....so, $2000 CDN would be the equivalent of about $1700 USD right now. UNESCO does not create or supplant the laws of sovereign nations.....UNESCO is an international body that is in charge of, for lack of a better word, organising and facilitating the laws that the individual countries come up with themselves. example.... Australia decides that its fossil resources are something that should be protected as part of it's heritage. under the UNESCO treaty, they list fossils as a protected resource. they are a member of UNESCO...kind of like being a part of the United Nations....so, when Australian fossils turn up in Denmark, or the USA, or England...or any other country that is a member of UNESCO, that country has a reciprocal obligation to legally act on those illegally imported items. It's essentially an extradition treaty for cultural property. UNESCO doesn't make any laws...the individual country's decide what is and isn't cultural property. Go to UNESCO.org and see for yourself what this body does. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tommy Armstrong" To: "'michael'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:50 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Well from a legal standpoint the wording " a single mineral specimen of a > fair market value in > Canada of more than $2,000" does not mean the true fair market value since > the vast number of possible collectors (and museums for that matter), > that > would want such a specimen probably reside outside Canada. So such wording > seems to me to indicate that "fair value" would be only based on the value > if it had to stay in Canada. And I am still at a loss as why a mineral (or > fossil for that matter) specimen that came out of a privately owned mine > "should be in a museum", why should the "museum get first crack at > something"? It does not say a fair market value in 2000 Canadian > dollars-but the fair market value in the county of Canada. Not what I or > many others might see as a "fair market value". > > "ALL FOSSILS AND MINERALS FROM CHINA ARE ILLEGAL UNDER > UNESCO.." But I ask who the heck is UNESCO to supplant the laws and > regulations of a sovereign country. It is up to China to determine what is > legal and not legal--what to enforce or not to enforce--not UNESCO, unless > of course they agreed to abide by such an international body. And even if > they agreed to abide by it and changed their mind--it is still their > sovereign right to do so. > > Tommy Armstrong > PO Box 484 > Lillington, NC 27546 > http://www.brickengraver.com > > "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the > consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do > something about it" > Walker Percy > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of michael >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:25 PM >> To: michael; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock >> and gem collectors >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >> >> Here are the Canadian regs. Probably quite similar to a lot >> of countries: >> >> How many of you mineral dealers out there have ever bought a >> mineral specimen from a Canadian dealer for $2000 CDN and had >> a permit with it? I have only known of one dealer who has >> applied for permits...Rod Tyson. >> >> ___________________________________________________ >> >> Mineralogy >> >> 2. Mineral specimens, whether composed of a single mineral, a >> part of a mineral or an aggregate of minerals, recovered from >> the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the >> inland or other internal waters of Canada, as follows: >> >> (a) a type mineral specimen or a described mineral specimen >> of any value; >> >> (b) a single mineral specimen of a fair market value in >> Canada of more than $2,000; >> >> (c) a collection of 10 or more mineral specimens of a fair >> market value in Canada of more than $5,000 recovered from a >> specific mine, quarry or locality; >> >> (d) mineral specimens in bulk, recovered from a specific >> mineral occurrence, weighing 225 kg (500 pounds) or more of >> any value; and >> >> (e) meteorites and tektites of any value. >> >> SOR/95-170, s. 1; SOR/97-159, s. 2; SOR/2005-260, s. 4(F). >> >> Palaeontology >> >> 3. Palaeontological specimens recovered from the soil of >> Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other >> internal waters of Canada, as follows: >> >> (a) a type fossil specimen of any value; >> >> (b) fossil amber of any value; >> >> (c) a vertebrate fossil specimen of a fair market value in >> Canada of more than $500; >> >> (d) an invertebrate fossil specimen of a fair market value in >> Canada of more than $500; >> >> (e) specimens in bulk weighing 11.25 kg (25 pounds) or more >> of vertebrate fossils or vertebrate trace fossils of any value; and >> >> (f) specimens in bulk weighing 22.5 kg (50 pounds) or more, >> recovered from a specific outcrop, quarry or locality, that >> include one or more specimens of any value of the following, namely, >> >> (i) invertebrate fossils, >> >> (ii) plant fossils, or >> >> (iii) fossiliferous rock containing plant fossils or >> invertebrate fossils. >> >> SOR/95-170, s. 1; SOR/97-159, s. 3; SOR/2005-260, s. 5(F). >> >> Archaeology >> >> 4. (1) An archaeological object of any value recovered from >> the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the >> inland or other internal waters of Canada not less than 75 >> years after its burial, concealment or abandonment if the >> object is an artifact or organic remains, including human >> remains, associated with or representative of historic or >> prehistoric cultures. >> >> (2) Without restricting the generality of subitem (1), >> archaeological objects described in that subitem include >> >> (a) artifacts that relate to the Aboriginal peoples of Canada, namely, >> >> (i) arrow heads, harpoon heads and such other projectile >> points used as hunting implements, >> >> (ii) adzes, axes, awls, celts, chisels and such other tools >> and agricultural implements, >> >> (iii) clubs, tomahawks and such other weapons, >> >> (iv) harpoon heads, fish hooks, sinkers, and such other >> fishing implements, >> >> (v) pipes, vessels, potsherds and such other pottery, >> >> (vi) effigies, rock drawings, wampum and such other >> ceremonial and religious articles, and >> >> (vii) beads, articles of adornment and such other objects >> used as trading goods; >> >> (b) artifacts that relate to the progressive exploration, >> occupation, defence and development of the territory that is >> now Canada by non-aboriginal peoples, namely, >> >> (i) arms, accoutrements, fragments of uniforms, buckles, >> badges, buttons, and such other objects related to military activity, >> >> (ii) beads, articles of adornment and such other objects used >> as trading goods associated with the fur trade, >> >> (iii) hunting, fishing and trapping implements, >> >> (iv) ordnance, ship's gear, anchors and such other objects >> related to naval activity, >> >> (v) religious paraphernalia and such other objects related to >> missionary activity, >> >> (vi) coins, cargo from shipwrecks or sunken ships and such >> other objects related to transportation, supply and commerce, >> >> (vii) utensils, implements, tools, weapons, household >> articles and such other objects related to early settlement >> and pioneer life, and >> >> (viii) machinery and such other objects related to >> manufacture and industry; and >> >> (c) organic remains associated with or representative of >> historic or prehistoric cultures. >> >> SOR/86-329, s. 2; SOR/97-159, s. 4; SOR/2005-260, s. 6. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Thu Mar 16 23:17:31 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Thu Mar 16 23:18:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils Message-ID: <00bf01c64992$db3f7620$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Here is a copy of the letter sent to the Senkenberg museum from the Chinese Society of Vertebrate Paleontology concerning the hairy psittacasaur........ you will notice they say "important vertebrate specimens"...now, vert paleontologists don't ever care about invert materials...not in China, not here. So, whether invert material is illegal or not....I don't know. I am told by American and Canadian government officials and also paleontologists that it is illegal....that the Chinese government tells them that they are, but then you will read in places that they are only concerned about important vertebrates (who decides this is a mystery...as it seems much easier to make EVERYTHING illegal). I had one customs official tell me that they had a directive from the Chinese government stating that ANYTHING from China, manufactured by the Chinese, or from the land of China, was cultural property. His response was: "Don't be ridiculous...how do we possibly enforce that? you need to be more specific" Under that Chinese statement, noodles, electronics, woks, jade pendants, running shoes...it was all cultural property. I assume that this had something to do with the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Nonetheless....I have been told that fossils and minerals from China are illegal, and if the (at least) Canadian government catches me importing them, they will be confiscated and I will be in trouble. Do you really think customs agents will know the difference between a small common fish, and a small extremely rare one? No, they will see fossil, and China, and seize everything. Just as US customs does. I went to Lebanon a couple of years back, and before I left I contacted the Lebanese government regarding their cultural property laws when it comes to fossils. They said their laws concerned archaeology more than paleontology, and to carry back a few specimens at a time was fine. If I sent a container back, that would be another story...but a few pieces here and there was fine. I then asked the Canadian government the same question, and they told me it was illegal. I sent them the email I had received from the Lebanese government saying it wasn't illegal, and my government's response was: "Well, we don't interperet their laws that way. If you import the material and we catch you, it will be seized, and you will be charged" And they are right. I brought back material with me, as did the professor I was with. Had it have been seized, I would have gone to court with my "get out of jail" letter, and would hopefully have gotten the material back...but I still would have spent a lot of time fighting heavy handed bureaucrats. The government, any government, can do ANYTHING they like to you....you just have the option of taking them to court when they are wrong...but you need money. here's the Chinese letter: December 25, 2001 Prof. Dr. Fritz F. Steininger Naturmuseum Senckenberg Senckenberganlage 25 D-60325 Frankfurt am Main Germany Dear Prof. Dr. Steininger: We are deeply concerned with, and saddened by, the recent news that your museum has purchased a smuggled Chinese dinosaur fossil from a fossil dealer. And we have also been informed that in the past your museum also obtained several Confuciusornis specimens that were illegally exported from China. On behalf of the Chinese vertebrate paleontological community, we write this letter to express our regrets, disappointments and worries over these unfortunate events. We would like to reassure you that, according to Chinese laws, ALL important vertebrate fossils are prohibited from being exported out of China. We are aware of the "fact" that a variety of faked export permits circulate on the international underground fossil market. However, this cannot alter the true fact that all exported important Chinese vertebrate fossils are illegal and these acts are against the Chinese laws. Buying and selling smuggled fossils are also emphatically discouraged by several international conventions. For instance, the UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property (1970) seeks to protect cultural property against theft, illicit export and wrongful alienation. The International Institute for the Unification of Private Law (UNIDROIT) has also drawn a treaty on Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural Objects (1995). In both treaties, fossils are included in the category of cultural property. The Senckenberg Naturmuseum is one of the largest, and arguably most reputable, natural history museums in Europe. It therefore should shoulder more responsibility in educating the public and help combat any illegal trading of fossils. It is our strong belief that any form of illegal collecting and trading of fossils from any country will only jeopardize the spirit of scientific research and further encourage more illicit collecting and underground trading of precious fossils. Significant information about the locality, stratigraphy and taphonomy of precious fossils will be lost forever due to unscientific collecting and illegal trading. Consequently, important fossil localities, as part of the cultural and scientific heritage, will be in severe peril. Chinese Society of Vertebrate Paleontology has been very concerned with the deteriorating situation of illicit fossil collecting and exporting in recent years. We are strongly opposed to such illegal and immoral actions. We hold the belief that a responsible museum should not buy and deposit any smuggled fossil however justifiable it may seem, and all conscientious scientists should not be involved in any trading or studying of the illegal specimens however important they may be. Finally, we believe that all illegally exported fossils from China should be repatriated to institutions in China where they can be appropriately preserved and studied by scientists from all over the world. We would also like to take this opportunity to appeal to all responsible institutions and individuals in the world to join us in our efforts to curtail the activities of illegal trade of cultural objects including fossils. We have noticed, with great comfort and appreciation, that many prestigious journals such as Nature, Science and Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology as well as many scientists from different countries have expressed their strong and clear condemnation towards the illegal fossil dealings by refusing to publish the research related to an illegal specimen. They have set a good example for the world scientific community to follow. We thank them for their support. We hope you, too, will consider our appeal, and take necessary measures to stop buying any illicit Chinese fossils, and help return all these smuggled fossils to China. To that end, we thank you in advance for your cooperation. Sincerely yours, Chinese Society of Vertebrate Paleontology P. O. Box 643 142 Xi-Wai-Da-Jie Beijing 100044 China Cc: Society of Vertebrate Paleontology (SVP), International Council of Museums (ICOM), Der Internationale Museumsrat ICOM, United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), Nature Magazine, Science Magazine, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, City Government of Frankfurt. ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: "Rock Currier" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > see below > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rock Currier" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:32 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export certain kinds of >> fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read hominid or dinosaur fossils), >> but will gladly sell you as many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, >> as >> you want and export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >> on >> those unless things have changed during the last year. Is the one person >> selling legal Chinese fossils providing documents to prove that they are >> legal? What about various kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in >> limestone? What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are they also >> illegal? > ____________________________________________ > according to the academics I have spoken to, ALL fossils from China are > illegal. According to the Canadian government UNESCO authority I spoke > to, all minerals as well as fossils from China are illegal. The Chinese > government will almost never go to any trouble as far as protesting their > common mineral and fossil and antique cultural items being sold in another > country, but they make a stink when it comes to the "big important stuff". > But, as I said....ALL FOSSILS AND MINERALS FROM CHINA ARE ILLEGAL UNDER > UNESCO....from what I have been told by government officials and > paleontologists. Just because you see them for sale and no one making a > fuss about them doesn't mean they are legal. > > __________________________________________________________________ >> >> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 has >> Canadian >> Government permit before they are sold to foreign cutters. Perhaps >> diamonds >> are not considered a national treasure. It would on the face of it seem >> ridiculous not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian government >> that will know its value? The answer is of course not. > > __________________________________ > > Diamonds would not fall under the same category...they would fall under > the same category as any other mineral resource. The government doesn't > require export permits for limestone from Ontario....yet all that is is > Ordovician crinoids, trilobites, etc. And yes...you find a completely new > mineral in Mt Ste Hillaire, and you would be breaking the law by taking it > out of Canada. If it is new to science you will NEVER get a permit for > it....if it is one of many, you may. All the permits do is ensure that > the Canadian government gets first crack at scientifically important > specimens, at fair market value. If you legally owned it, the government > would compensate you for it...they don't just seize specimens. And to > determine value, they have things appraised by experts.... > > _____________________________________________________________ > > > > >> >> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or minerals or >> requiring a permit before export, the implication is that they consider >> them >> valuable and worthy of special treatment and protection for future >> generations. Do these governments make provisions to protect fossils from >> natural weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to protect >> valuable specimens when they are found rather than running them through >> the >> crusher? It seems that such laws will only cause mining companies to be >> sure >> that everything is blown into little bits rather than have to get >> involved >> in more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The foundations >> of >> all museum collections that I know about are from private collections, >> and >> in a rigorous sense, most of that material is stolen material. How can we >> prevent illegal minerals and fossils from entering private and public >> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them that do not >> have >> proper documentation to be illegal and subject to seizure by the police. >> We >> can also sent up a system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen >> is >> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to set up a >> chain >> of custody documentation for the specimen. What you say? Don't be >> rediculous? >> >> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens will take >> the >> best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on our institutions to take >> care >> of them in the long term. They have a terrible track record of doing >> that. >> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local museums have >> documentation showing that they were legally collected? Do we really want >> to >> go down this path of craziness? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 02:33:11 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 02:33:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: [meteorite-list] Water May Not Have Formed Mars' Recent Gullies References: <200603161943.k2GJhPS26351@zagami.jpl.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <002201c649ae$315acfd0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Hi all. Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for this gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 phases, solid, liquid and gas? The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like layers of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? Armando Afonso - Portugal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Baalke" To: "Meteorite Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 7:43 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Water May Not Have Formed Mars' Recent Gullies > > > WATER MAY NOT HAVE FORMED MARS' RECENT GULLIES >>From Lori Stiles, UA Office of University Communications, 520-621-1877 > > - Thursday, March 16, 2006 > > -------------------------------------------------- > Contact Information > Gwendolyn Bart 520-626-5065 gwenbart@lpl.arizona.edu > --------------------------------------------------- > > > If you're a scientist studying the surface of Mars, few discoveries could > be > more exciting than seeing recent gullies apparently formed by running > water. > > And that's what scientists believed they saw in Mars Orbital Camera (MOC) > images five years ago. They published a paper in Science on MOC images > that > show small, geologically young ravines. They concluded that the gullies > are > evidence that liquid water flowed on Mars' surface sometime within the > last > million years. > > A word of caution, though: The moon has gullies that look like that, a > University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory researcher has found. > And water certainly didn't form gullies on the waterless moon. > > Gwendolyn D. Bart is presenting the work today at the 37th Lunar and > Planetary Science Conference in Houston. > > "We'd all like to find liquid water on Mars," Bart said. "That would be > really, really exciting. If there were liquid water on Mars, humans > wouldn't > have to ship water from Earth when they go to explore the planet. That > would > be an enormous cost savings. And liquid water near the surface of Mars > would > greatly increase the chances for native life on Mars." > > The 2000 Science paper was provocative, Bart said. "But I was skeptical. I > wondered if there is another explanation for the gullies." > > Then last year she heard a talk by Allan Treiman of the Lunar and > Planetary > Institute. Treiman suggested the martian gullies might be dry landslides, > perhaps formed by wind and not formed by water at all. > > Recently, Bart was studying the lunar landscape in high-resolution images > taken in 1969, prior to the Apollo landings, for her research on processes > that modify the lunar surface. > > "Totally by accident, I saw gullies that looked strikingly like the > gullies > on Mars," she said. > > "If the dry landslide hypothesis for the formation of martian gullies is > correct, we might expect to see similar features on the moon, where there > is > no water," she said. "We do." > > Gullies in the moon's 10-mile-diameter (17 kilometer) crater Dawes are > similar in structure and size to those in a martian crater that MOC > photographed. Micrometeorites hitting the smooth slopes and crater on the > airless moon could easily trigger small avalanches that form gullies, Bart > said. > > However, the martian gullies also resemble gullies on Earth that were > formed by water, she noted. > > "My point is that you can't just look at the Mars gullies and assume they > were formed by water. It may be, or may be not. We need another test to > know." > ______________________________________________ > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 02:52:39 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 02:52:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. Message-ID: <005201c649b0$e8ddce80$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> OK, I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to keep him motivated, telling him adequate stories. He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure that there is oil in Mars. What is the range of a f15, by the way? Armando Afonso - Portugal --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 17 03:37:50 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 17 03:37:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <004a01c6497a$67156150$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <001f01c649b7$38ac3310$6400a8c0@hppav> Actually Canada's regulation is among the most reasonable around. Canada gets first crack at anything really rare, at fair market value, the rest is the domain of other parties. Compare that to declarations of worldwide prohibition of private ownership of any object, fossil or mineral, worldwide. Michael, I've heard before that UNESCO regulations cover fossils and minerals, however your recent postings got me reinterested enough to look at the official UNESCO site. Frankly I saw a lot of stuff that the same nations that seem to be raising the most fuss on expatriated fossils seem to ignore, like the mandate for the rights of indigenous peoples. But I could not quickly put my hands on the reg that covers fossils. Are fossils considered "Cultural Artifacts" and thus covered under those regs? If you have a link to the specific regs, agreements etc. It might be enlightening to us all. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > it's actually not ridiculous, at least in Canada. It's quite fair. > > You have a fossil worth $1000 you want to sell. It should be in a museum, > but you have a customer for it. > > You fill out a permit, and: > > a) the government decides it is too valuable to leave th country, that it > should be in a national or regional collection, so you are paid fair > market value for it > > b) the government decides that it has enough examples of this particular > thing, you get your export permit, and you sell it and get your money. > > Ina ll of the years I filled out permits for fossils, never ONCE did I > have a permit denied. Out of the almost 1000 permits filled out every > year (on average) 3-4 are blocked...and the vast majority of those are > archaeological items. > > tell me how this is bad? giving a museum first crack at something? > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > To: "'Rock Currier'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:02 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that >> gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a >> "scientist" >> and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by >> studying >> and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under >> whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. >> >> This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. >> >> Tommy Armstrong >> PO Box 484 >> Lillington, NC 27546 >> http://www.brickengraver.com >> >> "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the >> consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do >> something about it" >> Walker Percy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >>> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >>> Rock Currier >>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM >>> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >>> Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >>> >>> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export >>> certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read >>> hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as >>> many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and >>> export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >>> on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is >>> the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing >>> documents to prove that they are legal? What about various >>> kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? >>> What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >>> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are >>> they also illegal? >>> >>> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 >>> has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to >>> foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a >>> national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous >>> not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >>> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian >>> government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >>> >>> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or >>> minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication >>> is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special >>> treatment and protection for future generations. Do these >>> governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural >>> weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to >>> protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than >>> running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws >>> will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything >>> is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in >>> more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The >>> foundations of all museum collections that I know about are >>> from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of >>> that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal >>> minerals and fossils from entering private and public >>> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them >>> that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and >>> subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a >>> system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is >>> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to >>> set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. >>> What you say? Don't be rediculous? >>> >>> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens >>> will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on >>> our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They >>> have a terrible track record of doing that. >>> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local >>> museums have documentation showing that they were legally >>> collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 17 03:37:57 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 17 03:38:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <004a01c6497a$67156150$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <002001c649b7$3d44ce00$6400a8c0@hppav> Actually Canada's regulation is among the most reasonable around. Canada gets first crack at anything really rare, at fair market value, the rest is the domain of other parties. Compare that to declarations of worldwide prohibition of private ownership of any object, fossil or mineral, worldwide. Michael, I've heard before that UNESCO regulations cover fossils and minerals, however your recent postings got me reinterested enough to look at the official UNESCO site. Frankly I saw a lot of stuff that the same nations that seem to be raising the most fuss on expatriated fossils seem to ignore, like the mandate for the rights of indigenous peoples. But I could not quickly put my hands on the reg that covers fossils. Are fossils considered "Cultural Artifacts" and thus covered under those regs? If you have a link to the specific regs, agreements etc. It might be enlightening to us all. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > it's actually not ridiculous, at least in Canada. It's quite fair. > > You have a fossil worth $1000 you want to sell. It should be in a museum, > but you have a customer for it. > > You fill out a permit, and: > > a) the government decides it is too valuable to leave th country, that it > should be in a national or regional collection, so you are paid fair > market value for it > > b) the government decides that it has enough examples of this particular > thing, you get your export permit, and you sell it and get your money. > > Ina ll of the years I filled out permits for fossils, never ONCE did I > have a permit denied. Out of the almost 1000 permits filled out every > year (on average) 3-4 are blocked...and the vast majority of those are > archaeological items. > > tell me how this is bad? giving a museum first crack at something? > > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tommy Armstrong" > To: "'Rock Currier'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:02 PM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that >> gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a >> "scientist" >> and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by >> studying >> and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under >> whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. >> >> This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. >> >> Tommy Armstrong >> PO Box 484 >> Lillington, NC 27546 >> http://www.brickengraver.com >> >> "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the >> consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do >> something about it" >> Walker Percy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >>> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >>> Rock Currier >>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM >>> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >>> Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >>> >>> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export >>> certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read >>> hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as >>> many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and >>> export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >>> on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is >>> the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing >>> documents to prove that they are legal? What about various >>> kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? >>> What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >>> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are >>> they also illegal? >>> >>> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 >>> has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to >>> foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a >>> national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous >>> not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >>> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian >>> government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >>> >>> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or >>> minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication >>> is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special >>> treatment and protection for future generations. Do these >>> governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural >>> weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to >>> protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than >>> running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws >>> will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything >>> is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in >>> more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The >>> foundations of all museum collections that I know about are >>> from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of >>> that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal >>> minerals and fossils from entering private and public >>> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them >>> that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and >>> subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a >>> system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is >>> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to >>> set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. >>> What you say? Don't be rediculous? >>> >>> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens >>> will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on >>> our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They >>> have a terrible track record of doing that. >>> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local >>> museums have documentation showing that they were legally >>> collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From volgems at icx.net Fri Mar 17 03:41:05 2006 From: volgems at icx.net (John Teague) Date: Fri Mar 17 03:41:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. Message-ID: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jealously can be almost humorous at times! If things are so bad in America, wonder why so many people want to make it their new home? Like we like to say in the South .... We might not always be right, but we ain't never wrong! That's a quote from Brother Dave Gardner. Anyone remeber him? John Teague Knoxville, Tennessee -----Original Message----- >From: Armando Afonso >Sent: Mar 17, 2006 5:52 AM >To: mineralogia-independiente-cfamnxj94842356f-armandoafonso=oniduo.pt@eListas.net, Humberto Montes Barbio , Meteorpassion@aol.com, "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" , Ron Baalke >Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. > >OK, >I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to keep him motivated, telling him adequate stories. >He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! >I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure that there is oil in Mars. >What is the range of a f15, by the way? >Armando Afonso - Portugal > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jr50wv at yahoo.com Fri Mar 17 04:20:22 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Fri Mar 17 04:20:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water color Message-ID: <20060317122022.25210.qmail@web34604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Jonna: It's the water, from the (mostly oak but including paw-paw, hickory, maple, etc) leaves. There isn't much algae, probably because the tadpoles eat it. I've been trying to get a photo of the bigger salamanders, which are nearly the size of a banana, as they rise up to the surface to breathe, but it happens so quickly that my coolpix was unable to capture. It has quite a delay between pressing the shutter button and the actual exposure happening. So this winter, I've saved my nickels and dimes to buy a D70s SLR, which takes the exposure the instant you press the button. SMaller salamanders live in the pond year-round, but the big ones are only obvious during their spring mating season. I understand their larva live in the pond for 2-3 years before transforming into the adult form, which lives in the forest floor. Bullfrog tadpoles also live in water for up to 3 years...amazing. We built the pond to catch water which pours from a crack in the bedrock during a rainy spell, and throw it off to the side and down a guttter, instead of running to the foundation of the house. During a really rainy stratch, you can hear rocks tumbling back inside the hill. It's quite erie sounding late at night, like the dwarves are back in there cutting rock to mine for diamonds (or coal, more likely around here!) After a rain, there's a little light colored mineral suspended in the pond water, probably a light colored clay, since the hills here are a cross between sandstone and shale that turns to clay mud upon exposure to daylight and water. There is a little vein of limestone in the hill, just enough to foster growth of eastern juniper, which we call cedar locally. JR --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 04:47:24 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Mar 17 04:47:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. In-Reply-To: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: OK I'm waiting for the off topic politics cops to jump into action, that never seems to happen for moonbat comments. BK > >OK, > >I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to keep > him motivated, telling him adequate stories. > >He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! > >I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure that > there is oil in Mars. > >What is the range of a f15, by the way? > >Armando Afonso - Portugal > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 05:19:39 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 05:19:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] John Teage "Water in Mars" References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Hi again. I assure you that I am not jealous, and there is no risk to you in seeing me moving to America. I generaly like the american people, and have a great respect for their many scientific acomplishments etc, but in many aspects this country is a joke. This should not be news to you. Armando Afonso - Portugal ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Teague" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. > Jealously can be almost humorous at times! > > If things are so bad in America, wonder why so many people > want to make it their new home? > > Like we like to say in the South .... We might not always be right, > but we ain't never wrong! That's a quote from Brother Dave > Gardner. Anyone remeber him? > > John Teague > Knoxville, Tennessee > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Armando Afonso >>Sent: Mar 17, 2006 5:52 AM >>To: >>mineralogia-independiente-cfamnxj94842356f-armandoafonso=oniduo.pt@eListas.net, >>Humberto Montes Barbio , Meteorpassion@aol.com, >>"Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >>, Ron Baalke >>Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. >> >>OK, >>I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to keep >>him motivated, telling him adequate stories. >>He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! >>I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure that >>there is oil in Mars. >>What is the range of a f15, by the way? >>Armando Afonso - Portugal >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From afox at panix.com Fri Mar 17 05:53:50 2006 From: afox at panix.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Fri Mar 17 05:53:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] John Teage "Water in Mars" In-Reply-To: <007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: Hey all, This thread is straying dangerously towards being off-topic, not to mention potentially flame-worthy. If you wish to continue discussing politics, please do so off list. First warning. Thanks! Aaron Rockhounds Admin Team (too lazy to log into the admin account) From codeburner at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 05:55:13 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Mar 17 05:55:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] John Teage "Water in Mars" In-Reply-To: <007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: Do tell, what has Portugal done for the world in the last 400 years? Ant?nio de Oliveira Salazar is your contribution to world politics. BK On 3/17/06, Armando Afonso wrote: > > Hi again. > I assure you that I am not jealous, and there is no risk to you in seeing > me > moving to America. > I generaly like the american people, and have a great respect for their > many > scientific acomplishments etc, but in many aspects this country is a joke. > This should not be news to you. > Armando Afonso - Portugal > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Teague" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:41 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. > > > > Jealously can be almost humorous at times! > > > > If things are so bad in America, wonder why so many people > > want to make it their new home? > > > > Like we like to say in the South .... We might not always be right, > > but we ain't never wrong! That's a quote from Brother Dave > > Gardner. Anyone remeber him? > > > > John Teague > > Knoxville, Tennessee > > > > -----Original Message----- > >>From: Armando Afonso > >>Sent: Mar 17, 2006 5:52 AM > >>To: > >>mineralogia-independiente-cfamnxj94842356f-armandoafonso= > oniduo.pt@eListas.net, > >>Humberto Montes Barbio , Meteorpassion@aol.com > , > >>"Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > >>, Ron Baalke > >>Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. > >> > >>OK, > >>I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to keep > >>him motivated, telling him adequate stories. > >>He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! > >>I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure > that > >>there is oil in Mars. > >>What is the range of a f15, by the way? > >>Armando Afonso - Portugal > >> > >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >>multipart/alternative > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/html > >>--- > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>Subscription Services: > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >>List Home Page: > >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Fri Mar 17 06:07:09 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Fri Mar 17 06:08:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <004a01c6497a$67156150$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <001f01c649b7$38ac3310$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <00f601c649cc$14bf3870$6802a8c0@heathercomp> UNESCO covers a lot, but you're right.....much is unenforced. It's a huge website....but somewhere on it is a listing of each country, when ratified, what is cultural property...etc. A lot of countries consider fossils to be cultural property. A lot of countries consider minerals to be cultural property...a lot don't. And here's something that will piss off a lot of people as far as a heavy handed government......In Canada, if for instance you buy a Van Gogt 3 years ago, it's yours if you decide to move out of Canada. But, if you bought it 50 years ago, and it has been in Canada all that time, it is now Cultural Property, and you need a permit to move it across the border. So, Cultural Property limitations can also apply to things NOT FROM CANADA, if they have been in the country long enough....fossils, minerals, anyhting that is normally cultural property. I can't remember what the length of time is...it's something like 30 or 50 years Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 4:37 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Actually Canada's regulation is among the most reasonable around. Canada > gets first crack at anything really rare, at fair market value, the rest > is the domain of other parties. Compare that to declarations of worldwide > prohibition of private ownership of any object, fossil or mineral, > worldwide. > > Michael, I've heard before that UNESCO regulations cover fossils and > minerals, however your recent postings got me reinterested enough to look > at the official UNESCO site. Frankly I saw a lot of stuff that the same > nations that seem to be raising the most fuss on expatriated fossils seem > to ignore, like the mandate for the rights of indigenous peoples. But I > could not quickly put my hands on the reg that covers fossils. Are fossils > considered "Cultural Artifacts" and thus covered under those regs? If you > have a link to the specific regs, agreements etc. It might be enlightening > to us all. > > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> it's actually not ridiculous, at least in Canada. It's quite fair. >> >> You have a fossil worth $1000 you want to sell. It should be in a >> museum, but you have a customer for it. >> >> You fill out a permit, and: >> >> a) the government decides it is too valuable to leave th country, that it >> should be in a national or regional collection, so you are paid fair >> market value for it >> >> b) the government decides that it has enough examples of this particular >> thing, you get your export permit, and you sell it and get your money. >> >> Ina ll of the years I filled out permits for fossils, never ONCE did I >> have a permit denied. Out of the almost 1000 permits filled out every >> year (on average) 3-4 are blocked...and the vast majority of those are >> archaeological items. >> >> tell me how this is bad? giving a museum first crack at something? >> >> Michael >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >> To: "'Rock Currier'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A >> mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:02 PM >> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >> >> >>> Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that >>> gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a >>> "scientist" >>> and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by >>> studying >>> and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under >>> whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. >>> >>> This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. >>> >>> Tommy Armstrong >>> PO Box 484 >>> Lillington, NC 27546 >>> http://www.brickengraver.com >>> >>> "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the >>> consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do >>> something about it" >>> Walker Percy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >>>> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >>>> Rock Currier >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM >>>> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >>>> Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >>>> >>>> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export >>>> certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read >>>> hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as >>>> many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and >>>> export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >>>> on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is >>>> the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing >>>> documents to prove that they are legal? What about various >>>> kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? >>>> What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >>>> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are >>>> they also illegal? >>>> >>>> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 >>>> has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to >>>> foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a >>>> national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous >>>> not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >>>> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian >>>> government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >>>> >>>> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or >>>> minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication >>>> is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special >>>> treatment and protection for future generations. Do these >>>> governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural >>>> weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to >>>> protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than >>>> running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws >>>> will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything >>>> is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in >>>> more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The >>>> foundations of all museum collections that I know about are >>>> from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of >>>> that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal >>>> minerals and fossils from entering private and public >>>> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them >>>> that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and >>>> subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a >>>> system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is >>>> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to >>>> set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. >>>> What you say? Don't be rediculous? >>>> >>>> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens >>>> will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on >>>> our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They >>>> have a terrible track record of doing that. >>>> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local >>>> museums have documentation showing that they were legally >>>> collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>> Subscription Services: >>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>> List Home Page: >>>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 06:32:10 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 06:31:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] John Teage "Water in Mars" References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net><007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <00a201c649cf$93e341c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Look. I would prefer comments on the subject of my first message, since the question on the cowboys IQ was only a lateral reflection, certainly in the heads of many patriotic americans. The ridiculous american politics for "some reason" are a popular joke everywhere outside America. I can?t do nothing about it. But this is enought. Please stop. My country has indeed a great history of great sailors, long time before America?s existence. Some of the oldest universities were born here, centuries before Washington was marked on a map (made in Europe). I would sugest you a research on Wikipedia pex., about the subject if really interested. But you mentioned a period of the recent history that is not, perhaps the best to our people. I remember that at the same time America, was dropping atomic weappons on inocent people. That is something that only a civilized country can understand or justify. But please speak about the stones. Recall me, what was your oppinion about my pressure and CO2 issue? Armando ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] John Teage "Water in Mars" Do tell, what has Portugal done for the world in the last 400 years? Ant?nio de Oliveira Salazar is your contribution to world politics. BK On 3/17/06, Armando Afonso wrote: > > Hi again. > I assure you that I am not jealous, and there is no risk to you in seeing > me > moving to America. > I generaly like the american people, and have a great respect for their > many > scientific acomplishments etc, but in many aspects this country is a joke. > This should not be news to you. > Armando Afonso - Portugal > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Teague" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:41 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. > > > > Jealously can be almost humorous at times! > > > > If things are so bad in America, wonder why so many people > > want to make it their new home? > > > > Like we like to say in the South .... We might not always be right, > > but we ain't never wrong! That's a quote from Brother Dave > > Gardner. Anyone remeber him? > > > > John Teague > > Knoxville, Tennessee > > > > -----Original Message----- > >>From: Armando Afonso > >>Sent: Mar 17, 2006 5:52 AM > >>To: > >>mineralogia-independiente-cfamnxj94842356f-armandoafonso= > oniduo.pt@eListas.net, > >>Humberto Montes Barbio , Meteorpassion@aol.com > , > >>"Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > >>, Ron Baalke > >>Subject: [Rockhounds] Water in Mars. > >> > >>OK, > >>I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to keep > >>him motivated, telling him adequate stories. > >>He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! > >>I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure > that > >>there is oil in Mars. > >>What is the range of a f15, by the way? > >>Armando Afonso - Portugal > >> > >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >>multipart/alternative > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/html > >>--- > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >>Subscription Services: > >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >>List Home Page: > >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From afox at panix.com Fri Mar 17 06:59:03 2006 From: afox at panix.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Fri Mar 17 06:59:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] [ADMIN] John Teage "Water in Mars" In-Reply-To: <00a201c649cf$93e341c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net><007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> <00a201c649cf$93e341c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: Second warning. Stop this thread, now. Aaron Rockhounds Admin From rico at ricosweb.com Fri Mar 17 07:12:21 2006 From: rico at ricosweb.com (Rich Allen) Date: Fri Mar 17 07:14:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils In-Reply-To: <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> michael wrote: > And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper > collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not possibly > hope to explain it to you... If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% of items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than those privileged few? Rich Allen Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house the vast amounts of fossils found here) From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 07:16:49 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 07:16:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars Message-ID: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Please forget the previous messages. I prefer comments on the first topic: " Hi all. Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for this gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 phases, solid, liquid and gas? The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like layers of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? Armando Afonso - Portugal " --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Fri Mar 17 07:42:21 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Fri Mar 17 07:44:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> Message-ID: <019301c649d9$61646c60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> you're right.....but the academics that I deal with are all really decent guys...and I would rather give them first opportunity to buy something from me (sometimes at full price, sometimes at a discount) than to sell it straight into the open market. you are right about most material not being on display, and you are right about the public not having access to that 90%. but, when it comes to any material that would be blocked and purchased by the government, it would be important enough that someone would be working on it, or in the case of those antiques, it would be on display somewhere. i guess sometimes i just trust that the people entrusted with this stuff do something responsible with it. museum collections are, at least to me, important, and i would rather have a government that imposes laws like Canada's than have a country that cares not a whit for it's heritage, and allows it to be sold to anyone and everyone without making any effort to get it themselves. selling a rare trilobite to the ROM will hopefully benefit the Canadian people in some way....probably so small that no one would ever notice it...but selling the sam specimen to a German collector will DEFINITELY not benefit the Candian people...... Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Allen" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > michael wrote: >> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper >> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not possibly >> hope to explain it to you... > > If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural > laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no > issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% of > items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible > only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than those > privileged few? > > Rich Allen > Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house > the vast amounts of fossils found here) > > From teyancey at mail.tca.net Fri Mar 17 07:43:52 2006 From: teyancey at mail.tca.net (Thomas Yancey) Date: Fri Mar 17 07:44:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils In-Reply-To: <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> Message-ID: Rich and others, The greatest value of a major museum is not to put on a public display of fossils and other natural history items, but to store them for study with appropriate documentation that maintains their scientific value. Natural history museums do have a public role in display, very much a legacy of the Victorian curio cabinet style, that has stimulated the curiosity and interest of millions of viewers. But this is only a component of their primary function as a storehouse of well documented materials. As for being accessible to only a "privileged few", I assure you that the category includes people other than scientists and the real limitation on access is lack of personnel to oversee access by casual visitors, due to low levels of funding. Furthermore, the vast majority of material in a museum is very unappealing and would quickly be discarded if public viewing were the primary purpose of collections. Tom Yancey >michael wrote: >> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper >> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not possibly >> hope to explain it to you... > >If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural >laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no >issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% of >items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible >only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than those >privileged few? > >Rich Allen >Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house >the vast amounts of fossils found here) > -- Thomas Yancey From jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org Fri Mar 17 08:00:17 2006 From: jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org (jennifer isham) Date: Fri Mar 17 08:00:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geode appraisal please In-Reply-To: <019301c649d9$61646c60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: Anybody interested in ballpark appraising a geode? I'd like to sell it, give or barter it away, but have no idea it's value. Dimensions and photos can be seen at http://www.wisdomofstones.com/geode.htm .... thanks, and if anyone is interested in it, let me know. If not, I'll put it on craigslist near me. thanks. jennifer wisdom of stones From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Fri Mar 17 08:02:58 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Fri Mar 17 08:03:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geode appraisal please References: Message-ID: <01b001c649dc$42d97c60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> not a helluva lot.....maybe $25-30 wholesale.....$50-75 or so retail....depending on your market Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "jennifer isham" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:00 AM Subject: Geode appraisal please > Anybody interested in ballpark appraising a geode? I'd like to sell it, > give or barter it away, but have no idea it's value. Dimensions and > photos > can be seen at http://www.wisdomofstones.com/geode.htm .... thanks, and if > anyone is interested in it, let me know. If not, I'll put it on > craigslist > near me. thanks. > > jennifer > wisdom of stones > > From rico at ricosweb.com Fri Mar 17 08:08:30 2006 From: rico at ricosweb.com (Rich Allen) Date: Fri Mar 17 08:11:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> Message-ID: <441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com> Well, I disagree. :) I feel that if a specimen's value is solely academic, then that specimen should be stored at an academic facility for academic study. A museum, again in my opinion, is a vehicle for public knowledge through display. This is based mainly on the funding issue you raise; if a government is spending thousands or millions to keep an item in the country, why isn't that government spending more on allowing the public to view these items? If a museum is unable to fund the viewing of all of it's items, then why have those items at all? Thomas Yancey wrote: > Rich and others, > > The greatest value of a major museum is not to put on a public display > of fossils and other natural history items, but to store them for study > with appropriate documentation that maintains their scientific value. > Natural history museums do have a public role in display, very much a > legacy of the Victorian curio cabinet style, that has stimulated the > curiosity and interest of millions of viewers. But this is only a > component of their primary function as a storehouse of well documented > materials. > > As for being accessible to only a "privileged few", I assure you that > the category includes people other than scientists and the real > limitation on access is lack of personnel to oversee access by casual > visitors, due to low levels of funding. Furthermore, the vast majority > of material in a museum is very unappealing and would quickly be > discarded if public viewing were the primary purpose of collections. > > Tom Yancey > > > >> michael wrote: >>> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper >>> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not >>> possibly >>> hope to explain it to you... >> >> If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural >> laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no >> issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% of >> items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible >> only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than those >> privileged few? >> >> Rich Allen >> Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house >> the vast amounts of fossils found here) >> > > From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Fri Mar 17 08:14:48 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Fri Mar 17 08:15:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> <441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com> Message-ID: <01bd01c649dd$e9adf650$6802a8c0@heathercomp> how many museums do you know of that have any real surplus of cash to do the things they need to do???? very few ones in North America that I know of...most of them are struggling to stay alive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Allen" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Well, I disagree. :) I feel that if a specimen's value is solely > academic, then that specimen should be stored at an academic facility > for academic study. A museum, again in my opinion, is a vehicle for > public knowledge through display. This is based mainly on the funding > issue you raise; if a government is spending thousands or millions to > keep an item in the country, why isn't that government spending more on > allowing the public to view these items? If a museum is unable to fund > the viewing of all of it's items, then why have those items at all? > > Thomas Yancey wrote: >> Rich and others, >> >> The greatest value of a major museum is not to put on a public display >> of fossils and other natural history items, but to store them for study >> with appropriate documentation that maintains their scientific value. >> Natural history museums do have a public role in display, very much a >> legacy of the Victorian curio cabinet style, that has stimulated the >> curiosity and interest of millions of viewers. But this is only a >> component of their primary function as a storehouse of well documented >> materials. >> >> As for being accessible to only a "privileged few", I assure you that >> the category includes people other than scientists and the real >> limitation on access is lack of personnel to oversee access by casual >> visitors, due to low levels of funding. Furthermore, the vast majority >> of material in a museum is very unappealing and would quickly be >> discarded if public viewing were the primary purpose of collections. >> >> Tom Yancey >> >> >> >>> michael wrote: >>>> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper >>>> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not >>>> possibly >>>> hope to explain it to you... >>> >>> If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural >>> laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no >>> issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% of >>> items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible >>> only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than those >>> privileged few? >>> >>> Rich Allen >>> Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house >>> the vast amounts of fossils found here) >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From info at wisdomofstones.com Fri Mar 17 08:20:51 2006 From: info at wisdomofstones.com (Jennifer Isham) Date: Fri Mar 17 08:20:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geode appraisal please In-Reply-To: <01b001c649dc$42d97c60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: that's alot to me in the scheme of things :-) thanks much. -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of michael Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:03 AM To: jennifer@sunriseinstitute.org; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geode appraisal please not a helluva lot.....maybe $25-30 wholesale.....$50-75 or so retail....depending on your market Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "jennifer isham" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:00 AM Subject: Geode appraisal please > Anybody interested in ballpark appraising a geode? I'd like to sell it, > give or barter it away, but have no idea it's value. Dimensions and > photos > can be seen at http://www.wisdomofstones.com/geode.htm .... thanks, and if > anyone is interested in it, let me know. If not, I'll put it on > craigslist > near me. thanks. > > jennifer > wisdom of stones > > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Ted at crystalgems.com Fri Mar 17 09:02:01 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Fri Mar 17 09:02:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Liquid Phase CO2 requires very high surface pressures. In-Reply-To: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <001b01c649e4$730d9940$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> Armando: You have passed from geology science to fanciful chemistry. The pressures required for a stable liquid phase of CO2 are high, many times the pressure required for water. Otherwise frozen CO2 sublimates to gaseous form skipping liquid. Search the web looking for "liquid phase", CO2 and you will receive many hits explaining the phases of CO2 with relevant scientific information. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA 22407 -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Armando Afonso Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:17 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars Please forget the previous messages. I prefer comments on the first topic: " Hi all. Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for this gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 phases, solid, liquid and gas? The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like layers of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? Armando Afonso - Portugal " --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rocknate at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 13:02:02 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Fri Mar 17 13:02:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San Diego Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In addition to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play in the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was lucky enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best find of the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink tourmaline crystal. However, the most interesting specimen is a hand sample of matrix containing too many tourmaline crystals to count with cross sections ranging from a fraction of a mm to perhaps 3 mm (most in the micro range). The color in these crystals ranges from a light green to nearly colorless. Studying this specimen got me to thinking about the sources of color in tourmaline. A Google search based on "tourmaline chromophore" turned up a number of hits including a master's thesis related to the subject from the University of New Orleans. The URL for the thesis is http://etd-db.uno.edu/theses/submitted/etd-05062003-151714/unrestricted/2003_05_ms_giller_brian.pdf and it is titled AN OVERVIEW OF TOURMALINE MINERALOGY FROM GEM TOURMALINE PRODUCING PEGMATITE DISTRICTS IN AFRICA I found parts of the thesis to be interesting and just wanted to bring it to the attention of others who might also be interested in the tourmaline group. Now my questions. a) How rare is colorless tourmaline? I don't remember ever seeing a colorless tourmaline before collecting my current specimen. Perhaps that is simply because people are more interested in the colored specimens and the colorless ones get overlooked; or perhaps colorless tourmaline just isn't all that common. b) What is the largest colorless tourmaline specimen you have seen? Part of the reason for my near colorless crystals may be their small size. I would guess that big colorless stones are harder to come by? c) Is there a specific locality that is known for colorless tourmaline crystals? Thanks for any information you can provide. Nate Martin Lexington, MA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Mar 17 14:26:07 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Mar 17 14:26:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water color In-Reply-To: <20060317122022.25210.qmail@web34604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We call it  "tea colored water" due to the leaching of leaf materials in the ponds and many streams in this area. Glenn From: "J. R. Hodel" <jr50wv@yahoo.com> Subject: [Rockhounds] water color >Hi Jonna: > >It's the water, from the (mostly oak but including paw-paw, hickory, maple, etc) leaves. There isn't much algae, probably because the tadpoles eat it. > > >JR ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Save time by starting a search from any Web page with the MSN Search Toolbar-FREE! ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From bova at mindspring.com Fri Mar 17 15:15:37 2006 From: bova at mindspring.com (Carol J. Bova) Date: Fri Mar 17 15:15:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Interesting questions, Nate. Achroite is the name for colorless tourmaline. I haven't seen any entirely colorless myself, but I haven't looked for them either. I have seen green and clear, pink and clear bicolors, and tricolor pink, clear and green crystals from the Morro Redondo mine in Minas Gerais. I had some zoned Nigerian water-worn pieces of tourmaline with achroite between reddish-brown areas some time back. Mindat has some other locations too: http://www.mindat.org/min-454.html Carol Carol J. Bova Mathews, VA On Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:02 PM, Nathan Martin wrote: > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San > Diego > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In > addition > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to > play in > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was > lucky > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best > find of > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink > tourmaline > crystal. However, the most interesting specimen is a hand sample of > matrix > containing too many tourmaline crystals to count with cross sections > ranging > from a fraction of a mm to perhaps 3 mm (most in the micro range). The > color in these crystals ranges from a light green to nearly colorless. > Studying this specimen got me to thinking about the sources of color in > tourmaline. > > A Google search based on "tourmaline chromophore" turned up a number > of hits > including a master's thesis related to the subject from the University > of > New Orleans. > > The URL for the thesis is > http://etd-db.uno.edu/theses/submitted/etd-05062003-151714/ > unrestricted/2003_05_ms_giller_brian.pdf > and it is titled AN OVERVIEW OF TOURMALINE MINERALOGY FROM GEM > TOURMALINE > PRODUCING PEGMATITE DISTRICTS IN AFRICA > > I found parts of the thesis to be interesting and just wanted to bring > it to > the attention of others who might also be interested in the tourmaline > group. > > Now my questions. > a) How rare is colorless tourmaline? I don't remember ever seeing a > colorless tourmaline before collecting my current specimen. Perhaps > that is > simply because people are more interested in the colored specimens and > the > colorless ones get overlooked; or perhaps colorless tourmaline just > isn't > all that common. > b) What is the largest colorless tourmaline specimen you have seen? > Part of > the reason for my near colorless crystals may be their small size. I > would > guess that big colorless stones are harder to come by? > c) Is there a specific locality that is known for colorless tourmaline > crystals? > > Thanks for any information you can provide. > > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Mar 17 15:30:04 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Mar 17 15:27:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars References: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <441B45E7.7FF5@Tomaszewski.net> Armando, As I remember, liquid CO2 needs about 4 times earth atmospheric pressure to form. It normally sublimates directly from the solid to the gas state. There is not enough atmospheric pressure on Mars to form liquid CO2. Kreigh Armando Afonso wrote: > > Please forget the previous messages. > I prefer comments on the first topic: > > " > Hi all. > Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for this > gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 phases, > solid, liquid and gas? > The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. > So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like layers > of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? > > Armando Afonso - Portugal > > " > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Cycadwood at aol.com Fri Mar 17 16:08:46 2006 From: Cycadwood at aol.com (Cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 17 16:08:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: <2db.49b6bea.314ca98e@aol.com> I highly recommend the book Tourmaline from Lithographie (_http://www.lithographie.org/about.htm_ (http://www.lithographie.org/about.htm) ) (formerly extraLapis English) for anyone interested in this most interesting mineral. All the extraLapis books are extremely well done. Frank PS Some are available on Amazon. Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 17 16:08:55 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 17 16:09:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars References: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <003801c64a20$25edfb00$6400a8c0@hppav> I guess in order to answer that question I'd have to look at the phase diagram of CO2. My Chemical Engineer's Handbook is at work. While I certainly can understand that Gas and Solid CO2 could be present, I wonder if there is enough pressure to allow liquid CO2 to form vs. going from gas to solid and vice versa. I know that at 1 atmosphere here on earth, CO2 sublimes, hence the term "dry ice". I know that in air liquification plants which run at several atmospheres, CO2 solids can plug heat exchangers, and thus the units must be periodically purged. I cannot imagine that the gravitational field of Mars, being smaller than earth, could generate pressures at or near the surface sufficient to make a liquid. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Afonso" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:16 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars Please forget the previous messages. I prefer comments on the first topic: " Hi all. Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for this gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 phases, solid, liquid and gas? The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like layers of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? Armando Afonso - Portugal " --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 17 16:33:33 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 17 16:33:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions References: <2db.49b6bea.314ca98e@aol.com> Message-ID: <01c401c64a23$967bbbc0$6400a8c0@hppav> Folks. I just received one of the first copies of Franks new book" Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood" WOW!! This one is worth buying if you are a fossil wood lover like me. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE --- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions >I highly recommend the book Tourmaline from Lithographie > (_http://www.lithographie.org/about.htm_ > (http://www.lithographie.org/about.htm) ) (formerly > extraLapis English) for anyone interested in this most interesting > mineral. All > the extraLapis books are extremely well done. > Frank > PS Some are available on Amazon. > > Frank J. Daniels, Publisher > Western Colorado Publishing Company > 2024 Freedom Court > Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ > (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ > (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) > 970.242.5255 > cell 970.216.9641 > Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, > and > Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at > Fossil > Wood. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 16:31:26 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 16:46:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars References: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> <003801c64a20$25edfb00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <000401c64a25$796dc440$05d692d5@TOSHIBA> Hi again. No mention of supercowboy`s QI, now. I need to have a look at this phase diagrams (I am sure that I have something about the subject somewhere in the lower stratas of my library), but at first, interesting would be to know wich one, between water and CO2, requires the lowest pressure to maintain the liquid state. That should be the suspect fluid number one, no? Regards. Armando Afonso ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water on Mars >I guess in order to answer that question I'd have to look at the phase >diagram of CO2. My Chemical Engineer's Handbook is at work. While I >certainly can understand that Gas and Solid CO2 could be present, I wonder >if there is enough pressure to allow liquid CO2 to form vs. going from gas >to solid and vice versa. I know that at 1 atmosphere here on earth, CO2 >sublimes, hence the term "dry ice". > > I know that in air liquification plants which run at several atmospheres, > CO2 solids can plug heat exchangers, and thus the units must be > periodically purged. I cannot imagine that the gravitational field of > Mars, being smaller than earth, could generate pressures at or near the > surface sufficient to make a liquid. > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Armando Afonso" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:16 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars > > > > Please forget the previous messages. > I prefer comments on the first topic: > > " > Hi all. > Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for this > gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 > phases, > solid, liquid and gas? > The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. > So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like > layers > of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? > > Armando Afonso - Portugal > > " > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From bobl at peaktopeak.com Fri Mar 17 16:51:54 2006 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Fri Mar 17 16:54:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] fossil wood book ad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200603180053.k2I0rwcV002485@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hey Frank, I just saw Gene's "Wow!" e-mail about your new book. Is there any way you can put some pictures from the book onto your website soon so we can all take a quick look at it? I know a few people who will be interested, but they might not buy a book "sight unseen". Thanks and regards, Bob Loeffler BobL@peaktopeak.com Field Trip Chairman and Webmaster North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) http://www.peaktopeak.com/njeffco/index.php Dealer Chairman and Webmaster Denver Gem and Mineral Show http://www.DenverMineralShow.com Check out the largest Colorado Rockhounding website at: http://www.peaktopeak.com/colorado/index.php -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Cycadwood@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:22 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] fossil wood book ad Frank Daniels and Dick Dayvault are pleased to announce the availability of their new book: Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood WESTERN COLORADO PUBLISHING COMPANY RE: New Petrified Wood Book Dear Gem/Mineral/Fossil Enthusiast: I think you will like this new book. We have been working on it for seven years. My co-author, geologist Dick Dayvault, has been an editor with Rocks & Minerals magazine for thirty years. We were able to keep the cost close to the first book even though this book is a lot bigger-it has 1600 color photographs, 456 pages, and weighs 7 1/2 pounds. It is a hardcover book printed and bound in Canada on 100% acid-free paper. Many of the subjects addressed are the result of feedback from my first book. People wanted more information on wood identification, more details about the mineralogy of fossil wood, and, of course, more pictures of beautiful specimens. Here it is! I am confident you will love it. Call with credit card information or send credit card information or a check. You can use the form below if you want. I'll get the book out right away by Priority Mail, and I'll pay the postage (which is not cheap for a 7 1/2 pound book). Thanks! Frank J. Daniels 2004 inductee to the National Rockhound and Lapidary Hall of Fame ANCIENT FORESTS: A CLOSER LOOK AT FOSSIL WOOD The most intriguing, beautiful, and informative fossil wood book of all time, exploring the subject with images to illustrate each point - with Scanning Electron Microscope images, digital micro images, macro photographs, and medium format photographs. Frank Daniels and geologist Dick Dayvault team up to explore the intricacies of fossil wood by leading the reader on an expedition into the micro world of fossil wood mineralization and cell structures. 1600 color photographs, charts, and diagrams, including 438 fossil wood micro images, 40 Geologic Landscapes T, and 46 thin section micrographs from modern conifers and hardwoods. Specimen photographs from worldwide locations, including numerous woods, cones, ferns, cycads, and short shoots, and including Acrostichum, Araucaria mirabilis, Araucarioxylon, Aurealcaulis moorei, Behuninia provoensis, Calamites, Carpolithus radiatus, Carporichnus bertheorum, Carya, Casuarina, Cupressinoxylon, Cyathodendron texanum, cycadeoid, Dadoxylon, Ginkgo, Grammatopteris, Hermanophyton glismannii, Hermanophyton taylorii, Jensensispermum redmondi, Juglans, Juniperus, Metasequoia, Osmunda, Palmoxylon, Pararaucaria, Pityoxylon, Platanoxylon, Podocarpoxylon, Protoyucca shadishii, Psaronius, Quercus, Rhexoxylon, Schilderia adamanica, Sequoia, Steinerocaulis radiatus, Taxodioxylon, Tempskya, Tietea singularis, Trochodendron, Ulmus, and Woodworthia arizonica. Fossil wood specimens from Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, Germany, Gondwana, Great Britain, Greece, Indonesia, Malagasy Republic, Pangea, Paraguay, Turkey and Zimbabwe; and from Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Louisiana, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oregon, Texas, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming in the United States. Major chapters address Fossil Wood Structure and Identification, The Process of Wood Transformation to Stone, Fossil Woods from the Western United States and around the World, and 3 Major Museum Collections of Fossil Woods. Order directly from the publisher for $89.95 US. Colorado residents add $2.61 state tax. Shipping and handling FREE for limited time. Send check or call with Visa/MasterCard information. PayPal to _cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) . Add $10 for air parcel post to Canada. Add $15 for ground transportation anywhere else within the inhabited portions of the planet. Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, CO 81503-9522 _www.westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (http://www.westerncoloradopublishing.com/) 970.242.5255 ................................... Yes, please rush my copy of Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood, by Frank J. Daniels and Richard D. Dayvault. Payment of $89.95 enclosed (plus $2.61 tax for Colorado residents). FREE shipping and handling in United States. Name__________________________________________________________________ street address or PO Box______________________________________________________________ city______________________________________state_____________ZIP__________ phone number ___________________________________________________________ Visa/MasterCard # ____________________________________________exp________ signature__________________________________________________ Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and the soon to be released Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Mar 17 17:00:35 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Mar 17 17:00:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs><004a01c6497a$67156150$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <001f01c649b7$38ac3310$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <002c01c64a27$5d8ed6e0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Does Alberta's laws supplant Canada's? As I understand it, all fossils in the province belong to the provincial government. Collectors can find anything they want, but they never truly own them. Is this an accurate assessment? As complicated as the laws are in various countries, it's a wonder that each government doesn't roam the Tucson show to track down stuff from their own country! Since most don't, it must not be that important. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Actually Canada's regulation is among the most reasonable around. Canada > gets first crack at anything really rare, at fair market value, the rest > is the domain of other parties. Compare that to declarations of worldwide > prohibition of private ownership of any object, fossil or mineral, > worldwide. > > Michael, I've heard before that UNESCO regulations cover fossils and > minerals, however your recent postings got me reinterested enough to look > at the official UNESCO site. Frankly I saw a lot of stuff that the same > nations that seem to be raising the most fuss on expatriated fossils seem > to ignore, like the mandate for the rights of indigenous peoples. But I > could not quickly put my hands on the reg that covers fossils. Are fossils > considered "Cultural Artifacts" and thus covered under those regs? If you > have a link to the specific regs, agreements etc. It might be enlightening > to us all. > > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> it's actually not ridiculous, at least in Canada. It's quite fair. >> >> You have a fossil worth $1000 you want to sell. It should be in a >> museum, but you have a customer for it. >> >> You fill out a permit, and: >> >> a) the government decides it is too valuable to leave th country, that it >> should be in a national or regional collection, so you are paid fair >> market value for it >> >> b) the government decides that it has enough examples of this particular >> thing, you get your export permit, and you sell it and get your money. >> >> Ina ll of the years I filled out permits for fossils, never ONCE did I >> have a permit denied. Out of the almost 1000 permits filled out every >> year (on average) 3-4 are blocked...and the vast majority of those are >> archaeological items. >> >> tell me how this is bad? giving a museum first crack at something? >> >> Michael >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >> To: "'Rock Currier'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A >> mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:02 PM >> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >> >> >>> Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that >>> gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a >>> "scientist" >>> and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by >>> studying >>> and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under >>> whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. >>> >>> This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. >>> >>> Tommy Armstrong >>> PO Box 484 >>> Lillington, NC 27546 >>> http://www.brickengraver.com >>> >>> "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the >>> consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do >>> something about it" >>> Walker Percy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >>>> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >>>> Rock Currier >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM >>>> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >>>> Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >>>> >>>> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export >>>> certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read >>>> hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as >>>> many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and >>>> export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >>>> on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is >>>> the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing >>>> documents to prove that they are legal? What about various >>>> kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? >>>> What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >>>> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are >>>> they also illegal? >>>> >>>> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 >>>> has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to >>>> foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a >>>> national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous >>>> not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >>>> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian >>>> government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >>>> >>>> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or >>>> minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication >>>> is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special >>>> treatment and protection for future generations. Do these >>>> governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural >>>> weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to >>>> protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than >>>> running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws >>>> will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything >>>> is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in >>>> more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The >>>> foundations of all museum collections that I know about are >>>> from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of >>>> that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal >>>> minerals and fossils from entering private and public >>>> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them >>>> that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and >>>> subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a >>>> system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is >>>> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to >>>> set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. >>>> What you say? Don't be rediculous? >>>> >>>> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens >>>> will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on >>>> our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They >>>> have a terrible track record of doing that. >>>> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local >>>> museums have documentation showing that they were legally >>>> collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>> Subscription Services: >>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>> List Home Page: >>>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 17 17:13:43 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 17 17:13:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars References: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA><003801c64a20$25edfb00$6400a8c0@hppav> <000401c64a25$796dc440$05d692d5@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <01e601c64a29$332adf00$6400a8c0@hppav> Water wins hands down. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Afonso" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water on Mars > Hi again. > No mention of supercowboy`s QI, now. > I need to have a look at this phase diagrams (I am sure that I have > something about the subject somewhere in the lower stratas of my library), > but at first, interesting would be to know wich one, between water and > CO2, requires the lowest pressure to maintain the liquid state. > That should be the suspect fluid number one, no? > Regards. > Armando Afonso > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water on Mars > > >>I guess in order to answer that question I'd have to look at the phase >>diagram of CO2. My Chemical Engineer's Handbook is at work. While I >>certainly can understand that Gas and Solid CO2 could be present, I wonder >>if there is enough pressure to allow liquid CO2 to form vs. going from gas >>to solid and vice versa. I know that at 1 atmosphere here on earth, CO2 >>sublimes, hence the term "dry ice". >> >> I know that in air liquification plants which run at several atmospheres, >> CO2 solids can plug heat exchangers, and thus the units must be >> periodically purged. I cannot imagine that the gravitational field of >> Mars, being smaller than earth, could generate pressures at or near the >> surface sufficient to make a liquid. >> >> Gene Hartstein >> Newark, DE >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Armando Afonso" >> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >> >> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:16 AM >> Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars >> >> >> >> Please forget the previous messages. >> I prefer comments on the first topic: >> >> " >> Hi all. >> Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for >> this >> gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 >> phases, >> solid, liquid and gas? >> The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. >> So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like >> layers >> of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? >> >> Armando Afonso - Portugal >> >> " >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Fri Mar 17 17:13:32 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Fri Mar 17 17:14:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000d01c64977$ae4cc340$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <004a01c6497a$67156150$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <001f01c649b7$38ac3310$6400a8c0@hppav> <002c01c64a27$5d8ed6e0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <030d01c64a29$2c9c6780$6802a8c0@heathercomp> provincial laws vary from province to province, and have very little to do with exportation...they are collection laws. for instance, in Alberta, you need a permit to collect Placenticeras ammonites..this is an exception. You are allowed to surface collect fossils, but you cannot excavate. you can't collect any amber. Alberta's laws are obvioulsy there to protect the dino material. Picking up teeth or claws on the surface isn't anything most people seem to worry about...digging up an ankylosaur skull is another matter. In saskatchewan, it's illegal to collect anything except botanicals...as far as I am aware. Whether or not you would get a federal export permit for a gorgosaurus tooth is another question.... Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Does Alberta's laws supplant Canada's? As I understand it, all fossils in > the province belong to the provincial government. Collectors can find > anything they want, but they never truly own them. Is this an accurate > assessment? > > As complicated as the laws are in various countries, it's a wonder that > each government doesn't roam the Tucson show to track down stuff from > their own country! Since most don't, it must not be that important. > > Alan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" > To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 6:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> Actually Canada's regulation is among the most reasonable around. Canada >> gets first crack at anything really rare, at fair market value, the rest >> is the domain of other parties. Compare that to declarations of worldwide >> prohibition of private ownership of any object, fossil or mineral, >> worldwide. >> >> Michael, I've heard before that UNESCO regulations cover fossils and >> minerals, however your recent postings got me reinterested enough to look >> at the official UNESCO site. Frankly I saw a lot of stuff that the same >> nations that seem to be raising the most fuss on expatriated fossils seem >> to ignore, like the mandate for the rights of indigenous peoples. But I >> could not quickly put my hands on the reg that covers fossils. Are >> fossils considered "Cultural Artifacts" and thus covered under those >> regs? If you have a link to the specific regs, agreements etc. It might >> be enlightening to us all. >> >> >> Gene Hartstein >> Newark, DE >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "michael" >> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:22 PM >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >> >> >>> it's actually not ridiculous, at least in Canada. It's quite fair. >>> >>> You have a fossil worth $1000 you want to sell. It should be in a >>> museum, but you have a customer for it. >>> >>> You fill out a permit, and: >>> >>> a) the government decides it is too valuable to leave th country, that >>> it should be in a national or regional collection, so you are paid fair >>> market value for it >>> >>> b) the government decides that it has enough examples of this particular >>> thing, you get your export permit, and you sell it and get your money. >>> >>> Ina ll of the years I filled out permits for fossils, never ONCE did I >>> have a permit denied. Out of the almost 1000 permits filled out every >>> year (on average) 3-4 are blocked...and the vast majority of those are >>> archaeological items. >>> >>> tell me how this is bad? giving a museum first crack at something? >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Tommy Armstrong" >>> To: "'Rock Currier'" ; "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A >>> mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:02 PM >>> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >>> >>> >>>> Perhaps the way around all this is to start an online "university" that >>>> gives out degrees in paleontology and then everyone can become a >>>> "scientist" >>>> and their pursuit would be to "further the knowledge if mankind" by >>>> studying >>>> and caring for these treasures. Of course might not be certified under >>>> whatever licensing board there is, but just start you own board. >>>> >>>> This whole fossil=national treasure thing is ridiculous. >>>> >>>> Tommy Armstrong >>>> PO Box 484 >>>> Lillington, NC 27546 >>>> http://www.brickengraver.com >>>> >>>> "Science is extraordinarily stupid about people as people and the >>>> consequence of this stupidity is going to do us all in if we don't do >>>> something about it" >>>> Walker Percy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >>>>> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >>>>> Rock Currier >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:33 PM >>>>> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >>>>> Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >>>>> >>>>> In China the local dealers don't want to sell or export >>>>> certain kinds of fossils especially vertebrate fossils (read >>>>> hominid or dinosaur fossils), but will gladly sell you as >>>>> many fish fossils and trilobite fossils etc, as you want and >>>>> export them as well. I don't think there is any restriction >>>>> on those unless things have changed during the last year. Is >>>>> the one person selling legal Chinese fossils providing >>>>> documents to prove that they are legal? What about various >>>>> kinds of lapidary articles made with fossils in limestone? >>>>> What about various kinds of building stone containing fossils. >>>>> Are those also prohibited? Those are fossils also. So are >>>>> they also illegal? >>>>> >>>>> I wonder of each diamond mined in Canada worth more than $500 >>>>> has Canadian Government permit before they are sold to >>>>> foreign cutters. Perhaps diamonds are not considered a >>>>> national treasure. It would on the face of it seem ridiculous >>>>> not to include diamonds. If a new and strange micro or TN is >>>>> found at Staint Hilaire, is there even anyone in the Canadian >>>>> government that will know its value? The answer is of course not. >>>>> >>>>> If countries pass laws prohibiting the export of fossils or >>>>> minerals or requiring a permit before export, the implication >>>>> is that they consider them valuable and worthy of special >>>>> treatment and protection for future generations. Do these >>>>> governments make provisions to protect fossils from natural >>>>> weathering processes? Do they require mining companies to >>>>> protect valuable specimens when they are found rather than >>>>> running them through the crusher? It seems that such laws >>>>> will only cause mining companies to be sure that everything >>>>> is blown into little bits rather than have to get involved in >>>>> more government bureaucracy and higher mining costs. The >>>>> foundations of all museum collections that I know about are >>>>> from private collections, and in a rigorous sense, most of >>>>> that material is stolen material. How can we prevent illegal >>>>> minerals and fossils from entering private and public >>>>> collections? Well to start with we can declare all of them >>>>> that do not have proper documentation to be illegal and >>>>> subject to seizure by the police. We can also sent up a >>>>> system where as soon as any fossil or mineral specimen is >>>>> found that a team of lawyers and accounts must be called to >>>>> set up a chain of custody documentation for the specimen. >>>>> What you say? Don't be rediculous? >>>>> >>>>> Usually the people who pay the most money for their specimens >>>>> will take the best care of them. Certainly we can't rely on >>>>> our institutions to take care of them in the long term. They >>>>> have a terrible track record of doing that. >>>>> How many of the fossil and mineral specimens in our local >>>>> museums have documentation showing that they were legally >>>>> collected? Do we really want to go down this path of craziness? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>> Subscription Services: >>>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>> List Home Page: >>>>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>> Subscription Services: >>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>> List Home Page: >>>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 17:30:12 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 17:30:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars References: <00df01c649d5$d01c11c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA><003801c64a20$25edfb00$6400a8c0@hppav><000401c64a25$796dc440$05d692d5@TOSHIBA> <01e601c64a29$332adf00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <002001c64a2b$8803fe10$05d692d5@TOSHIBA> OK, The triple point is indeed higher in CO2. Hum... What about amonia, metane, etc.? I was looking at it now. AA ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water on Mars > Water wins hands down. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Armando Afonso" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water on Mars > > >> Hi again. >> No mention of supercowboy`s QI, now. >> I need to have a look at this phase diagrams (I am sure that I have >> something about the subject somewhere in the lower stratas of my >> library), but at first, interesting would be to know wich one, between >> water and CO2, requires the lowest pressure to maintain the liquid >> state. >> That should be the suspect fluid number one, no? >> Regards. >> Armando Afonso >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" >> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:08 AM >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water on Mars >> >> >>>I guess in order to answer that question I'd have to look at the phase >>>diagram of CO2. My Chemical Engineer's Handbook is at work. While I >>>certainly can understand that Gas and Solid CO2 could be present, I >>>wonder if there is enough pressure to allow liquid CO2 to form vs. going >>>from gas to solid and vice versa. I know that at 1 atmosphere here on >>>earth, CO2 sublimes, hence the term "dry ice". >>> >>> I know that in air liquification plants which run at several >>> atmospheres, CO2 solids can plug heat exchangers, and thus the units >>> must be periodically purged. I cannot imagine that the gravitational >>> field of Mars, being smaller than earth, could generate pressures at or >>> near the surface sufficient to make a liquid. >>> >>> Gene Hartstein >>> Newark, DE >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Armando Afonso" >>> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:16 AM >>> Subject: [Rockhounds] water on Mars >>> >>> >>> >>> Please forget the previous messages. >>> I prefer comments on the first topic: >>> >>> " >>> Hi all. >>> Why is everybody resistent to the idea that the fluid responsable for >>> this >>> gullies and ravines in Mars is simply the still abundant CO2 , in 3 >>> phases, >>> solid, liquid and gas? >>> The surface pressure would not allow liquid water, anyway. >>> So, if this is so evident, why to look for fantastic scenarios, like >>> layers >>> of ice under the surface, explosive resurgences, etc? >>> >>> Armando Afonso - Portugal >>> >>> " >>> >>> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>> multipart/alternative >>> text/plain (text body -- kept) >>> text/html >>> --- >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 17:44:40 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 17:47:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mars- CO2 glaciars Message-ID: <000201c64a2d$f26532e0$66d692d5@TOSHIBA> Hi again I could imagine then, not solid, but plastic CO2 flowing on the surface of mars.In the botom, the pressure and included particles could eventualy be enough to turn it plastic, promoting some lubrification. Have anyone made sections of the valleys, to check if they are U-shaped, like our glaciars ?And a longitudinal profile through the axe of the channels could help too. AA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Fri Mar 17 18:23:25 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Fri Mar 17 18:23:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions References: Message-ID: <001301c64a32$f0c52530$5891b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Recently, Dr. George Rossman of CalTech gave a lecture on the colors and composition of tourmailine to the Fallbrook Gem & Mineral Society www.fgms.org which I attended. His studies have concluded that much tourmaline is colorless when formed and becomes various shades of pink due to natural gamma radiation over a period of millions of years. He has replicated this effect in the lab with a strong gamma source and showed slides of the results. By heating (I think it was to 800C.) the pink crystal becomes colorless once again. The bulk of his talk dealt with the many chemical combinations possible within the species tourmaline which account for colors other than the pink ranging to the plum color. Have a look at this link for some examples from Rossman's lab: http://minerals.gps.caltech.edu/COLOR_Causes/Radiate/index.htm Cheers, Erich kern Murrieta, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Martin" To: "Rockhounds Email List" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San Diego Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In addition to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play in the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was lucky enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best find of the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink tourmaline crystal. However, the most interesting specimen is a hand sample of matrix containing too many tourmaline crystals to count with cross sections ranging from a fraction of a mm to perhaps 3 mm (most in the micro range). The color in these crystals ranges from a light green to nearly colorless. Studying this specimen got me to thinking about the sources of color in tourmaline. A Google search based on "tourmaline chromophore" turned up a number of hits including a master's thesis related to the subject from the University of New Orleans. The URL for the thesis is http://etd-db.uno.edu/theses/submitted/etd-05062003-151714/unrestricted/2003_05_ms_giller_brian.pdf and it is titled AN OVERVIEW OF TOURMALINE MINERALOGY FROM GEM TOURMALINE PRODUCING PEGMATITE DISTRICTS IN AFRICA I found parts of the thesis to be interesting and just wanted to bring it to the attention of others who might also be interested in the tourmaline group. Now my questions. a) How rare is colorless tourmaline? I don't remember ever seeing a colorless tourmaline before collecting my current specimen. Perhaps that is simply because people are more interested in the colored specimens and the colorless ones get overlooked; or perhaps colorless tourmaline just isn't all that common. b) What is the largest colorless tourmaline specimen you have seen? Part of the reason for my near colorless crystals may be their small size. I would guess that big colorless stones are harder to come by? c) Is there a specific locality that is known for colorless tourmaline crystals? Thanks for any information you can provide. Nate Martin Lexington, MA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Mar 17 18:43:41 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Mar 17 18:40:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mars- CO2 glaciars References: <000201c64a2d$f26532e0$66d692d5@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <441B732E.2734@Tomaszewski.net> I assume you are familiar with Google Maps. Did you know they have one of Mars too? htttp://www.google.com/mars/ Like the Google Maps for Earth, not recommended unless you have a high speed internet connection. But with the maps you can at least plan a field trip, or check out the valley profiles. Kreigh Armando Afonso wrote: > > Hi again > I could imagine then, not solid, but plastic CO2 flowing on the surface of mars.In the botom, the pressure and included particles could eventualy be enough to turn it plastic, promoting some lubrification. Have anyone made sections of the valleys, to check if they are U-shaped, like our glaciars ?And a longitudinal profile through the axe of the channels could help too. > AA From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 17 18:51:23 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 17 18:51:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mars- CO2 glaciars References: <000201c64a2d$f26532e0$66d692d5@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <000e01c64a36$d87e40c0$6400a8c0@hppav> On earth we have seen glaciers of water but these have been supported by a reservoir of water, the oceans, to ensure that evaporation was replenished faster with snow. It's tough to imagine a similar situation with CO2 on Mars with its lower gravitational field. Methane perhaps, but this would be a strongly reducing atmosphere. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Afonso" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:44 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mars- CO2 glaciars Hi again I could imagine then, not solid, but plastic CO2 flowing on the surface of mars.In the botom, the pressure and included particles could eventualy be enough to turn it plastic, promoting some lubrification. Have anyone made sections of the valleys, to check if they are U-shaped, like our glaciars ?And a longitudinal profile through the axe of the channels could help too. AA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 19:10:10 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 19:10:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mars- CO2 glaciars References: <000201c64a2d$f26532e0$66d692d5@TOSHIBA> <441B732E.2734@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <004301c64a39$8196c1d0$66d692d5@TOSHIBA> Interesting, thank you. AA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mars- CO2 glaciars >I assume you are familiar with Google Maps. Did you know they have one > of Mars too? > > htttp://www.google.com/mars/ > > Like the Google Maps for Earth, not recommended unless you have a high > speed internet connection. But with the maps you can at least plan a > field trip, or check out the valley profiles. > > Kreigh > > > Armando Afonso wrote: >> >> Hi again >> I could imagine then, not solid, but plastic CO2 flowing on the surface >> of mars.In the botom, the pressure and included particles could eventualy >> be enough to turn it plastic, promoting some lubrification. Have anyone >> made sections of the valleys, to check if they are U-shaped, like our >> glaciars ?And a longitudinal profile through the axe of the channels >> could help too. >> AA > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From folmstead at rcn.com Fri Mar 17 19:16:58 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Mar 17 19:17:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IQ.... In-Reply-To: <00a201c649cf$93e341c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net><007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> <00a201c649cf$93e341c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <441B7BAA.5020501@rcn.com> Perhaps you have determined the IQ of our president to be " mental age of 7" but HE is not posting ignroant "talk" on this site... sooooooooo your IQ ......MUST be lower....??. >> >> >>OK, >> >>I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to >> keep >> >>him motivated, telling him adequate stories. >> >>He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! >> >>I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure >> that >> >>there is oil in Mars. >> >>What is the range of a f15, by the way? >> >>Armando Afonso - Portugal >> >> >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> >>multipart/alternative >> >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> >> text/html >> >>--- >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> >>Subscription Services: >> >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> >>List Home Page: >> >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> > Subscription Services: >> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> > List Home Page: >> > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Mar 17 19:42:43 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Mar 17 19:42:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> <441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com> Message-ID: <009801c64a3e$03d9f000$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Tom hit the nail on the head. I am a bit biased because I worked as a museum curator from 1985 to 1993 and have had curatorial duties as a park naturalist from 1993 to the present. If you look at the vast number of paleontological specimens in museum collections around the world (or even just restrict it to the U.S.), you will find that the bulk have little or no display value or interest to the general public (say >99% of the people out there). Museums have many functions besides display. Public programming (education) is one. Collections management is another. You think you have trouble managing your personal collection? Try managing 100,000 specimens... or 1 million... or 100 million!!! Collections management is not for the average person. Of the dozens of collectors I know, very few maintain a collection catalog or database of ANY type! As Tom pointed out, staff and funding is an issue. If you wanted to visit a museum to peruse the drawers and just look at specimens, there is an excellent chance you would be turned down because of the lack of supervision and staff time. If every person who wanted to examine specimens for the fun of it had access, specimens would be stolen. There are plenty of records of staff and volunteers stealing items, so why would the public be any different? If you are doing bonified research or can contribute some knowledge by examining specimens, you would NOT be turned down. Museums have to secure the collections from theft -- that is their civic obligation -- not provide access to everyone who wants to see a drawer of fossils or minerals. Collections managers have to make sure that specimens are handled as little as possible. How many times of you dropped something that you immediately regretted? I know I have! Protection of the collections is balanced with accessibility. In this country, government spending has little to do with running a museum. The Smithsonian and National Park Service are the primary federal institutions that deal with collections - geological and other. Many state museums exist under the auspices of state government, such as the Indiana State Museum. (But there is no Kentucky State Museum or Ohio State Museum.) Some municipal museums exist. The bulk of the museums are run by non-profit foundations. The number of academic museums - those with curators doing research - is a shrinking number. Universities are turning their museums over to other institutions in record numbers because they want to shed the financial obligations museum management encumbers. A few years ago, the University of Cincinnati turned over their entire geology (=paleontology) collections to the Cincinnati Museum Center because the professors who ran the museum wanted to focus on research and classroom duties and not collections management. (They wanted to turn it over to the professionals.) A paleontology curator at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago told me last year that academic museums are like a university without alumni financial support. The depend on grants, admissions, gift shop sales, and education program fees to support the collections management. This is also true for the Denver, Carnegie, American Museum, ad nauseum... Most paleontology research involve studying as many specimens of a species as is necessary for the proper analyitcal work. Some fossil species are represented a SINGLE specimen. I have donated several new species Mississippian crinoids (and co-authored two papers with other paleontologists) represented by one or two specimens. Why would I want to own a holotype? That is greed, pure and simple. Some research involves population studies with the examination of hundreds or thousands of specimens (for instance, Athyris brachiopods or specific shark teeth). Museums with large collections exist to serve those needs -- as well as the curious visitor only interested in looking at an exihibit in the gallery. If you are hellbent on getting behind the scenes and look at the vast percentage of the collection that is stored, I have two suggestions. Option one, get involved in research... make a contribution to the world of paleontology. Option two, volunteer at the closest museum that has a geology collection you would like to see. Of course, that means you have to do something worthwhile under the tutilege of a curator or collections manager ... data entry, cleaning specimens, organizing specimens, etc. I realize this is quite wordy and has diverged from the original discussion of illegal minerals and fossils, but I think it important for rockhounds to have an idea how and why museums don't display everything and provide collection access to EVERYONE that asks. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Allen" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Well, I disagree. :) I feel that if a specimen's value is solely > academic, then that specimen should be stored at an academic facility > for academic study. A museum, again in my opinion, is a vehicle for > public knowledge through display. This is based mainly on the funding > issue you raise; if a government is spending thousands or millions to > keep an item in the country, why isn't that government spending more on > allowing the public to view these items? If a museum is unable to fund > the viewing of all of it's items, then why have those items at all? > > Thomas Yancey wrote: >> Rich and others, >> >> The greatest value of a major museum is not to put on a public display >> of fossils and other natural history items, but to store them for study >> with appropriate documentation that maintains their scientific value. >> Natural history museums do have a public role in display, very much a >> legacy of the Victorian curio cabinet style, that has stimulated the >> curiosity and interest of millions of viewers. But this is only a >> component of their primary function as a storehouse of well documented >> materials. >> >> As for being accessible to only a "privileged few", I assure you that >> the category includes people other than scientists and the real >> limitation on access is lack of personnel to oversee access by casual >> visitors, due to low levels of funding. Furthermore, the vast majority >> of material in a museum is very unappealing and would quickly be >> discarded if public viewing were the primary purpose of collections. >> >> Tom Yancey >> >> >> >>> michael wrote: >>>> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have proper >>>> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not >>>> possibly >>>> hope to explain it to you... >>> >>> If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural >>> laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no >>> issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% of >>> items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible >>> only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than those >>> privileged few? >>> >>> Rich Allen >>> Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house >>> the vast amounts of fossils found here) >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 17 19:44:56 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 17 19:45:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IQ.... References: <27293988.1142595665801.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net><007e01c649c5$722e9c00$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> <00a201c649cf$93e341c0$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> <441B7BAA.5020501@rcn.com> Message-ID: <006401c64a3e$5d421f00$66d692d5@TOSHIBA> So, you think that I am ignorant, is it? Could you be more specific? AA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Olmstead" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:16 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] IQ.... > Perhaps you have determined the IQ of our president to be " mental age of > 7" > > but HE is not posting ignroant "talk" on this site... > > sooooooooo your IQ ......MUST be lower....??. > > >>> >>> >>OK, >>> >>I understand. With a president with a mental age of 7, you have to >>> keep >>> >>him motivated, telling him adequate stories. >>> >>He is not only totally ignorant, he has the chek book! >>> >>I am looking now through my pocket Raman spectroscope, and I am sure >>> that >>> >>there is oil in Mars. >>> >>What is the range of a f15, by the way? >>> >>Armando Afonso - Portugal >>> >> >>> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>> >>multipart/alternative >>> >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >>> >> text/html >>> >>--- >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>> >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> >>Subscription Services: >>> >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> >>List Home Page: >>> >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> > Subscription Services: >>> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> > List Home Page: >>> > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> > >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Mar 17 19:45:16 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Mar 17 19:45:16 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] museums with cash References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs><008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp><441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> <441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com> <01bd01c649dd$e9adf650$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <00b101c64a3e$5f026ca0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I am personally aware of only one museum that has a budget to acquire specimens regularly. There are more, but I don't know them. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > how many museums do you know of that have any real surplus of cash to do > the things they need to do???? > > very few ones in North America that I know of...most of them are > struggling to stay alive From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Mar 17 19:53:18 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Mar 17 19:53:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions References: Message-ID: <00b601c64a3f$7e870210$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I have colorless tourmaline from the Cryo-Genie mine. They are needle-like crystals and are associated with very light green and pink elbaite. I'll post some pictures to mindat. Nate, I sent your note to a fellow who did is PhD thesis on tourmaline and is still doing it. He may respond to you directly. As I recall he considers achroite to be colorless elbaite and doesn't use "achroite" in his work. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol J. Bova" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions > Interesting questions, Nate. > > Achroite is the name for colorless tourmaline. I haven't seen any > entirely colorless myself, but I haven't looked for them either. I have > seen green and clear, pink and clear bicolors, and tricolor pink, clear > and green crystals from the Morro Redondo mine in Minas Gerais. I had > some zoned Nigerian water-worn pieces of tourmaline with achroite between > reddish-brown areas some time back. > > Mindat has some other locations too: > http://www.mindat.org/min-454.html > Carol > > Carol J. Bova > Mathews, VA > > On Friday, March 17, 2006, at 04:02 PM, Nathan Martin wrote: > >> I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San >> Diego >> Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In >> addition >> to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play >> in >> the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was >> lucky >> enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best >> find of >> the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink >> tourmaline >> crystal. However, the most interesting specimen is a hand sample of >> matrix >> containing too many tourmaline crystals to count with cross sections >> ranging >> from a fraction of a mm to perhaps 3 mm (most in the micro range). The >> color in these crystals ranges from a light green to nearly colorless. >> Studying this specimen got me to thinking about the sources of color in >> tourmaline. >> >> A Google search based on "tourmaline chromophore" turned up a number of >> hits >> including a master's thesis related to the subject from the University >> of >> New Orleans. >> >> The URL for the thesis is >> http://etd-db.uno.edu/theses/submitted/etd-05062003-151714/ >> unrestricted/2003_05_ms_giller_brian.pdf >> and it is titled AN OVERVIEW OF TOURMALINE MINERALOGY FROM GEM >> TOURMALINE >> PRODUCING PEGMATITE DISTRICTS IN AFRICA >> >> I found parts of the thesis to be interesting and just wanted to bring >> it to >> the attention of others who might also be interested in the tourmaline >> group. >> >> Now my questions. >> a) How rare is colorless tourmaline? I don't remember ever seeing a >> colorless tourmaline before collecting my current specimen. Perhaps >> that is >> simply because people are more interested in the colored specimens and >> the >> colorless ones get overlooked; or perhaps colorless tourmaline just >> isn't >> all that common. >> b) What is the largest colorless tourmaline specimen you have seen? >> Part of >> the reason for my near colorless crystals may be their small size. I >> would >> guess that big colorless stones are harder to come by? >> c) Is there a specific locality that is known for colorless tourmaline >> crystals? >> >> Thanks for any information you can provide. >> >> Nate Martin >> Lexington, MA >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Mar 17 20:46:15 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Mar 17 20:43:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions References: Message-ID: <441B8FD4.7C76@Tomaszewski.net> Nathan, I have a few Achroite specimens from the Himalaya Mine. It is easy to sort them out as quartz fragments and miss that they are tourmalines. They are fairly rare, and all I have found from the location were under 1 cm. Kreigh Nathan Martin wrote: > > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San Diego > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In addition > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play in > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was lucky > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best find of > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink tourmaline > crystal. However, the most interesting specimen is a hand sample of matrix > containing too many tourmaline crystals to count with cross sections ranging > from a fraction of a mm to perhaps 3 mm (most in the micro range). The > color in these crystals ranges from a light green to nearly colorless. > Studying this specimen got me to thinking about the sources of color in > tourmaline. > > A Google search based on "tourmaline chromophore" turned up a number of hits > including a master's thesis related to the subject from the University of > New Orleans. > > The URL for the thesis is > http://etd-db.uno.edu/theses/submitted/etd-05062003-151714/unrestricted/2003_05_ms_giller_brian.pdf > and it is titled AN OVERVIEW OF TOURMALINE MINERALOGY FROM GEM TOURMALINE > PRODUCING PEGMATITE DISTRICTS IN AFRICA > > I found parts of the thesis to be interesting and just wanted to bring it to > the attention of others who might also be interested in the tourmaline > group. > > Now my questions. > a) How rare is colorless tourmaline? I don't remember ever seeing a > colorless tourmaline before collecting my current specimen. Perhaps that is > simply because people are more interested in the colored specimens and the > colorless ones get overlooked; or perhaps colorless tourmaline just isn't > all that common. > b) What is the largest colorless tourmaline specimen you have seen? Part of > the reason for my near colorless crystals may be their small size. I would > guess that big colorless stones are harder to come by? > c) Is there a specific locality that is known for colorless tourmaline > crystals? > > Thanks for any information you can provide. > > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 > Content-Length: 6792 From albalmer at att.net Fri Mar 17 20:45:23 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Fri Mar 17 20:45:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geode appraisal please In-Reply-To: <01b001c649dc$42d97c60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <01b001c649dc$42d97c60$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <8t3n12lf74scjvlr8vk68n6t91s7aj1k7m@4ax.com> On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:02:58 -0700, michael wrote: >not a helluva lot.....maybe $25-30 wholesale.....$50-75 or so >retail....depending on your market > Lucky to get half that, I think. Looks like a typical Indiana geode, somewhat larger than average, but not unusually so. As you say, it all depends on whether you can find someone who can't live without it. We had a number of them this size a few years ago. I think we got $10-15 for them. >Michael >----- Original Message ----- >From: "jennifer isham" >To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing >list for rock and gem collectors" >Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:00 AM >Subject: Geode appraisal please > > >> Anybody interested in ballpark appraising a geode? I'd like to sell it, >> give or barter it away, but have no idea it's value. Dimensions and >> photos >> can be seen at http://www.wisdomofstones.com/geode.htm .... thanks, and if >> anyone is interested in it, let me know. If not, I'll put it on >> craigslist >> near me. thanks. >> >> jennifer >> wisdom of stones >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From roughrock at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 21:49:52 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Fri Mar 17 21:49:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] illegalities of natural history items In-Reply-To: <04c201c64905$64cc1bc0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <04c201c64905$64cc1bc0$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: On 3/16/06, michael wrote: > > Just a humourous little anecdote about the legalities of Chinese > fossils...... Years ago, 20/20 did an episode on the fossil trade...and > talked almost exclusively about the illegalities of it. So much of it is > actually legal, That is true. A lot of those 'fossils' are legally exported because they are man made works of art, not fossils. They are counterfeit fossils so the Chinese government doesn't care if they are exported.to America. It helps the ballance of trade, causing our trrade deficit. It's the same with counterfiet Rolex watches and the silver bars made from pewter. I have heard if it is a real fossil, spread-eagle with all 4 limbs intact and showing, you can't afford it. That's the bottom line. If it is in a Quartzsite booth or a Tucson motel room, lying spread-eagle on the matrix, with all four limbs intact and showing, it is probably not a fossil. It is a work of art. I almost bought one in Quartzsite about 2 years ago. It was only $300. I just wonder how many modern birds or mamals die and are preserved, laying spread-eagle on matrix? I'm past 60 and have spent a good part of my life kicking around the back country. I've never seem a dead animal of any kind lying spread eagle like those fossils that the Chinese dealers sell. Grant W. Johnston, Chico, CA From roughrock at gmail.com Fri Mar 17 22:52:14 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Fri Mar 17 22:52:16 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] slag from copper smelter Message-ID: Hello, My wife and I were looking around a closed up copper mine a few weeks ago. It's been closed about 75 years but at one time there was a smelter producing 50 tons of copper every day. I was looking into an adit when she came up and asked if what she had found was a meteorite? There were 3 pieces and they looked like melted iron that had cooled. The magnet from my CB radio antenna will pick them up. They are very heavy for their size. They are definitely not copper or silver. We were over a quarter mile from the smelter but common sense tells me it is slag. What ferrous metals might be associated with copper ore? There was a lot of white rock with green stains, like chrysocolla. I don't know if the white rock, which was very abundant, was the ore they obtained copper from but the green on it was on the surface, almost like a stain. It is illegal to remove artifacts from the area we were visiting. I really don't know if the three metallic pieces she found are artifacts. They could be pieces of a meteorite some old prospector found, then discarded at the mine. I want to find out what they are because -- if it turns out they are artifacts -- the only morally proper thing to do is make another trip down there next winter. I'll have to return them and that means taking another trip and spending several more days in the area. ;-)) What do you think? Grant From jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org Sat Mar 18 01:42:17 2006 From: jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org (jennifer isham) Date: Sat Mar 18 01:42:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Geode appraisal please In-Reply-To: <8t3n12lf74scjvlr8vk68n6t91s7aj1k7m@4ax.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the second opinion and comment. It's appreciated. -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Al Balmer Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:45 PM To: michael; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Geode appraisal please On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:02:58 -0700, michael wrote: >not a helluva lot.....maybe $25-30 wholesale.....$50-75 or so >retail....depending on your market > Lucky to get half that, I think. Looks like a typical Indiana geode, somewhat larger than average, but not unusually so. As you say, it all depends on whether you can find someone who can't live without it. We had a number of them this size a few years ago. I think we got $10-15 for them. >Michael >----- Original Message ----- >From: "jennifer isham" >To: "michael" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing >list for rock and gem collectors" >Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:00 AM >Subject: Geode appraisal please > > >> Anybody interested in ballpark appraising a geode? I'd like to sell it, >> give or barter it away, but have no idea it's value. Dimensions and >> photos >> can be seen at http://www.wisdomofstones.com/geode.htm .... thanks, and if >> anyone is interested in it, let me know. If not, I'll put it on >> craigslist >> near me. thanks. >> >> jennifer >> wisdom of stones >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gene at fossilnut.com Sat Mar 18 05:18:07 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Sat Mar 18 05:18:22 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs><008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp><441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com><441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com> <009801c64a3e$03d9f000$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000701c64a8e$65dbc170$6400a8c0@hppav> I believe it will come to the point that museums will be unable to house all the specimens of newly discovered organisms, fossil or otherwise in a way that they can be examined. We can already see the trends of reduced support from the tax base, coupled with a private sector that is increasingly pressed from all sides for contributions to noble causes. To many cancer research seems more worthwhile than a museum for their limited contributory funds. Meanwhile the cost of physically maintaining those collections grows to staggering proportions. Maintenance of buildings, fuel to keep them climate controlled, staff to manage collections and more continues to grow on what has already been acquired. Museums have already begun the first steps; making decisions around what will be their specialty, using computers to register collections, purging material that has little scientific or public support value. Unfortunately I suspect the trend will continue. After all new material is still coming in. By the way I have acquired some pretty decent specimens of lesser scientific value that came from museums in the process of culling collections. Culling collections and breaking them up to go to other museums is a two edged sword for museums. On one hand it is an economic necessity, but on the other it risks alienating public support. There has been quite an uproar here in the Philadelphia area because of the fact that the Academy of Natural Sciences wants to give up its mineral collection. I think the next phase will be the storage of some materials in nearly irretrievable conditions (remember the last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark?) and their replacement with electronic images and data.. i.e. virtual collections. It has already begun in some instances. This will eventually increase virtual access to collections so that just about anyone can see the drawers in the back room (virtually) but probably make it costly to all but impossible to actually examine real specimens in many cases. Research programs needing the real thing will be forced to bear the cost of retrieving and restoring such materials. Museums will have to become much more selective (they already are) in what they can afford to keep and afford to keep in readily accessible places. There seems to be a disconnect between this reality and national edicts prohibiting private ownership or export of any fossils ( blanket prohibition, not reasonable regulation). Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > Tom hit the nail on the head. I am a bit biased because I worked as a > museum curator from 1985 to 1993 and have had curatorial duties as a park > naturalist from 1993 to the present. > > If you look at the vast number of paleontological specimens in museum > collections around the world (or even just restrict it to the U.S.), you > will find that the bulk have little or no display value or interest to the > general public (say >99% of the people out there). Museums have many > functions besides display. Public programming (education) is one. > Collections management is another. You think you have trouble managing > your personal collection? Try managing 100,000 specimens... or 1 > million... or 100 million!!! Collections management is not for the average > person. Of the dozens of collectors I know, very few maintain a collection > catalog or database of ANY type! > > As Tom pointed out, staff and funding is an issue. If you wanted to visit > a museum to peruse the drawers and just look at specimens, there is an > excellent chance you would be turned down because of the lack of > supervision and staff time. If every person who wanted to examine > specimens for the fun of it had access, specimens would be stolen. There > are plenty of records of staff and volunteers stealing items, so why would > the public be any different? If you are doing bonified research or can > contribute some knowledge by examining specimens, you would NOT be turned > down. Museums have to secure the collections from theft -- that is their > civic obligation -- not provide access to everyone who wants to see a > drawer of fossils or minerals. Collections managers have to make sure that > specimens are handled as little as possible. How many times of you dropped > something that you immediately regretted? I know I have! Protection of the > collections is balanced with accessibility. > > In this country, government spending has little to do with running a > museum. The Smithsonian and National Park Service are the primary federal > institutions that deal with collections - geological and other. Many state > museums exist under the auspices of state government, such as the Indiana > State Museum. (But there is no Kentucky State Museum or Ohio State > Museum.) Some municipal museums exist. The bulk of the museums are run by > non-profit foundations. > > The number of academic museums - those with curators doing research - is a > shrinking number. Universities are turning their museums over to other > institutions in record numbers because they want to shed the financial > obligations museum management encumbers. A few years ago, the University > of Cincinnati turned over their entire geology (=paleontology) collections > to the Cincinnati Museum Center because the professors who ran the museum > wanted to focus on research and classroom duties and not collections > management. (They wanted to turn it over to the professionals.) A > paleontology curator at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago > told me last year that academic museums are like a university without > alumni financial support. The depend on grants, admissions, gift shop > sales, and education program fees to support the collections management. > This is also true for the Denver, Carnegie, American Museum, ad nauseum... > > Most paleontology research involve studying as many specimens of a species > as is necessary for the proper analyitcal work. Some fossil species are > represented a SINGLE specimen. I have donated several new species > Mississippian crinoids (and co-authored two papers with other > paleontologists) represented by one or two specimens. Why would I want to > own a holotype? That is greed, pure and simple. Some research involves > population studies with the examination of hundreds or thousands of > specimens (for instance, Athyris brachiopods or specific shark teeth). > Museums with large collections exist to serve those needs -- as well as > the curious visitor only interested in looking at an exihibit in the > gallery. > > If you are hellbent on getting behind the scenes and look at the vast > percentage of the collection that is stored, I have two suggestions. > Option one, get involved in research... make a contribution to the world > of paleontology. Option two, volunteer at the closest museum that has a > geology collection you would like to see. Of course, that means you have > to do something worthwhile under the tutilege of a curator or collections > manager .. data entry, cleaning specimens, organizing specimens, etc. > > I realize this is quite wordy and has diverged from the original > discussion of illegal minerals and fossils, but I think it important for > rockhounds to have an idea how and why museums don't display everything > and provide collection access to EVERYONE that asks. > > Alan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Allen" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > >> Well, I disagree. :) I feel that if a specimen's value is solely >> academic, then that specimen should be stored at an academic facility >> for academic study. A museum, again in my opinion, is a vehicle for >> public knowledge through display. This is based mainly on the funding >> issue you raise; if a government is spending thousands or millions to >> keep an item in the country, why isn't that government spending more on >> allowing the public to view these items? If a museum is unable to fund >> the viewing of all of it's items, then why have those items at all? >> >> Thomas Yancey wrote: >>> Rich and others, >>> >>> The greatest value of a major museum is not to put on a public display >>> of fossils and other natural history items, but to store them for study >>> with appropriate documentation that maintains their scientific value. >>> Natural history museums do have a public role in display, very much a >>> legacy of the Victorian curio cabinet style, that has stimulated the >>> curiosity and interest of millions of viewers. But this is only a >>> component of their primary function as a storehouse of well documented >>> materials. >>> >>> As for being accessible to only a "privileged few", I assure you that >>> the category includes people other than scientists and the real >>> limitation on access is lack of personnel to oversee access by casual >>> visitors, due to low levels of funding. Furthermore, the vast majority >>> of material in a museum is very unappealing and would quickly be >>> discarded if public viewing were the primary purpose of collections. >>> >>> Tom Yancey >>> >>> >>> >>>> michael wrote: >>>>> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have >>>>> proper >>>>> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not >>>>> possibly >>>>> hope to explain it to you... >>>> >>>> If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural >>>> laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no >>>> issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% >>>> of >>>> items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible >>>> only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than >>>> those >>>> privileged few? >>>> >>>> Rich Allen >>>> Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house >>>> the vast amounts of fossils found here) >>>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Sat Mar 18 07:42:16 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Sat Mar 18 07:42:23 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] slag from copper smelter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:52:14 -0800, "Grant Johnston" wrote: >Hello, > >My wife and I were looking around a closed up copper mine a few weeks >ago. It's been closed about 75 years but at one time there was a >smelter producing 50 tons of copper every day. I was looking into an >adit when she came up and asked if what she had found was a meteorite? > >There were 3 pieces and they looked like melted iron that had cooled. >The magnet from my CB radio antenna will pick them up. They are very >heavy for their size. They are definitely not copper or silver. We >were over a quarter mile from the smelter but common sense tells me it >is slag. What ferrous metals might be associated with copper ore? > >There was a lot of white rock with green stains, like chrysocolla. I >don't know if the white rock, which was very abundant, was the ore >they obtained copper from but the green on it was on the surface, >almost like a stain. > >It is illegal to remove artifacts from the area we were visiting. I >really don't know if the three metallic pieces she found are >artifacts. They could be pieces of a meteorite some old prospector >found, then discarded at the mine. > > I want to find out what they are because -- if it turns out they are >artifacts -- the only morally proper thing to do is make another trip >down there next winter. I'll have to return them and that means taking >another trip and spending several more days in the area. ;-)) > >What do you think? > You're right, it sounds like slag, except where you find slag, you usually find tons of it. It might help to know exactly where you found it. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From ki3u at hotmail.com Sat Mar 18 08:11:44 2006 From: ki3u at hotmail.com (Berj N. Ensanian) Date: Sat Mar 18 08:11:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] slag from copper smelter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some of those old smelters blew up now and then. Perhaps a little history digging will shed some light - maybe the pieces you found were from an old accident. >From: "Grant Johnston" >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: [Rockhounds] slag from copper smelter >Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:52:14 -0800 > >Hello, > >My wife and I were looking around a closed up copper mine a few weeks >ago. It's been closed about 75 years but at one time there was a >smelter producing 50 tons of copper every day. I was looking into an >adit when she came up and asked if what she had found was a meteorite? > >There were 3 pieces and they looked like melted iron that had cooled. >The magnet from my CB radio antenna will pick them up. They are very >heavy for their size. They are definitely not copper or silver. We >were over a quarter mile from the smelter but common sense tells me it >is slag. What ferrous metals might be associated with copper ore? > >There was a lot of white rock with green stains, like chrysocolla. I >don't know if the white rock, which was very abundant, was the ore >they obtained copper from but the green on it was on the surface, >almost like a stain. > >It is illegal to remove artifacts from the area we were visiting. I >really don't know if the three metallic pieces she found are >artifacts. They could be pieces of a meteorite some old prospector >found, then discarded at the mine. > > I want to find out what they are because -- if it turns out they are >artifacts -- the only morally proper thing to do is make another trip >down there next winter. I'll have to return them and that means taking >another trip and spending several more days in the area. ;-)) > >What do you think? > >Grant > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 18 09:24:29 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 18 09:24:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: <031820061724.21215.441C424C00080BCC000052DF215876672007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> It seems to be a bit hard to find any specific information on "how large do colorless (achroite) tourmaline crystals get?". Achroite is mentioned here and there, but generally as a sideline to the larger, showier, colored tourmalines found at any given locality. My general impression is that colorless tourmalines tend to only be among the smaller crystals. And yes, achroite of course is just a varietal name, used mainly for gemstones (and not all that much used, there, I don't think). It's not a "proper"mineralogical name, for a mineral species. And of course, a colorless tourmaline is of no great consequence as a gemstone; no color to make it look pretty, and the refractive index or dispersion, is not particularly high; it wouldn't look any particularly different than colorless quartz, topaz, or beryl. Pete -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" : -------------- > I have colorless tourmaline from the Cryo-Genie mine. They are needle-like > crystals and are associated with very light green and pink elbaite. I'll > post some pictures to mindat. > > Nate, I sent your note to a fellow who did is PhD thesis on tourmaline and > is still doing it. He may respond to you directly. As I recall he considers > achroite to be colorless elbaite and doesn't use "achroite" in his work. > > Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sat Mar 18 10:52:18 2006 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sat Mar 18 10:52:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Advertisement - ConnRox Minerals References: <000701c647c3$dfdbda00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <001601c64abd$156012d0$0d8c4c0c@LarryRush> End of Winter (Thank God!) Sale..... Any item....20% off, plus free shipping in US ...now until April 1... www.ConnRoxMinerals.com Larry Rush From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 18 11:14:38 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 18 11:14:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] slag from copper smelter Message-ID: <031820061914.5345.441C5C1D000226D0000014E1215876672007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> I'm sure that what you have is some kind of slag (or related, melted metal of some sort), and I doubt that you need to worry about it being considered a "mining artifact" in the normal sense. It's highly unlikely to be a meteorite; a "discarded meteorite" is like a hundred-million-to-one chance. (make it a billion) True "slag" is not metal, it's moderately heavy, dark, semi-glassy, lava-like material, and as was pointed out, you usually find large piles of it. It often has small bubbles in it, or flow-type structures on the surface, from when it was poured or dumped. Slag may be slightly magnetic, so that magnet may be slightly deflected by it, but it's unlikely to be magnetic enough that a magnet will actually stick to it. It sounds like, rather, you have some kind of melted pieces of metal (and if they are magnetic, they presumably are iron), that was produced, somehow, accidently, at the smelter. At some smelters, quartzite or other white quartz-rich rock was brought in to use as one of the "feed" materials in the smelter; it helps to mix with the melted ore and produce the desired kind of siliceous slag; so, it's conceivable that your white, copper-stained rock, was some of that. Pete Modreski -------------- Original message from "Grant Johnston" : -------------- > Hello, > > My wife and I were looking around a closed up copper mine a few weeks > ago. It's been closed about 75 years but at one time there was a > smelter producing 50 tons of copper every day. I was looking into an > adit when she came up and asked if what she had found was a meteorite? > > There were 3 pieces and they looked like melted iron that had cooled. > The magnet from my CB radio antenna will pick them up. They are very > heavy for their size. They are definitely not copper or silver. We > were over a quarter mile from the smelter but common sense tells me it > is slag. What ferrous metals might be associated with copper ore? > > There was a lot of white rock with green stains, like chrysocolla. I > don't know if the white rock, which was very abundant, was the ore > they obtained copper from but the green on it was on the surface, > almost like a stain. > > It is illegal to remove artifacts from the area we were visiting. I > really don't know if the three metallic pieces she found are > artifacts. They could be pieces of a meteorite some old prospector > found, then discarded at the mine. > > I want to find out what they are because -- if it turns out they are > artifacts -- the only morally proper thing to do is make another trip > down there next winter. I'll have to return them and that means taking > another trip and spending several more days in the area. ;-)) > > What do you think? > > Grant > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Sat Mar 18 13:48:45 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Sat Mar 18 13:48:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: <031820061724.21215.441C424C00080BCC000052DF215876672007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <000001c64ad5$a9239a10$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> All: This does not contradict or challenge Pete's email in any way. It's just that his email is the one that made me get off my butt and root through my Himalaya stuff, (after I found the stuff that is). Please excuse the pictures, I took them rather quickly and yes, my fingers are in the way. http://www.wovengems.com/himalaya_files/Tourmaline.htm When I did my Himalaya dig two years ago I found several pieces of Tourmaline with colorless or nearly colorless growth portions. I tend to keep anything remotely crystalline so now I'll have to go through my Himalaya quartz looking for small overlooked clear tourmaline. The piece pictured is the one that has the thickest colorless tourmaline. I apologize for the horrible photos, I have candled this one extensively trying to get light through the dark center and marveling at the dramatic color change. I have another fairly large fragment, but it came from a very faint pink core tourmaline. Without a dark field light box it is hard to see the colorless section. In one of the Star Trek movies Engineer Scott introduces the concept of transparent aluminum for building a whale aquarium. I've often thought Tourmaline would be a good possibility for transparent aluminum Na(Al,Fe,Li,Mg,Mn)M3Al(Si6O18)(BO3)3(OH,F)4. Technically, the Tourmaline group are borosilicates, but there is a substantial inclusion of aluminum in the stones we usually consider the common gem tourmalines. A better possibility for transparent aluminum would be Topaz Al2[(F,OH)2|SiO4], especially if the cleavage planes could be controlled. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of pjmodreski@att.net Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:24 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions It seems to be a bit hard to find any specific information on "how large do colorless (achroite) tourmaline crystals get?". Achroite is mentioned here and there, but generally as a sideline to the larger, showier, colored tourmalines found at any given locality. My general impression is that colorless tourmalines tend to only be among the smaller crystals. And yes, achroite of course is just a varietal name, used mainly for gemstones (and not all that much used, there, I don't think). It's not a "proper"mineralogical name, for a mineral species. And of course, a colorless tourmaline is of no great consequence as a gemstone; no color to make it look pretty, and the refractive index or dispersion, is not particularly high; it wouldn't look any particularly different than colorless quartz, topaz, or beryl. Pete -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" : -------------- > I have colorless tourmaline from the Cryo-Genie mine. They are needle-like > crystals and are associated with very light green and pink elbaite. I'll > post some pictures to mindat. > > Nate, I sent your note to a fellow who did is PhD thesis on tourmaline and > is still doing it. He may respond to you directly. As I recall he considers > achroite to be colorless elbaite and doesn't use "achroite" in his work. > > Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From roughrock at gmail.com Sat Mar 18 15:32:16 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Sat Mar 18 15:32:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] budget cuts - was Illegal minerals and fossils Message-ID: You have that exactly right. It's not just geological specimens and museum exhibits that will be lost to public use. We live in a time when the only important rock is oil shale. I just got an email from Seti-At-Home. They are asking the public for cash support now. I'm going to check it out and make sure it's not a scam, then I'll send them a few $$$. I'm pretty sure the appeal was real since they knew how many work units I had completed. Since I'm from Louisiana I sent a lot (for my budget) of money to Katrina relief -- then I hear stories about all the abuse in the relief effort; relief money going to people who did not live in the area, relief money spent at adult websites, and unused mobile homes sinking into the mud in Hope, Arkansas while my 87 year-old Aunt Marie was stuck in E. Texas while her grand piano ws sitting in New Orleans, sitting in 32 inches of water for over 2 months. It is sickening. I'm a left-over from the Sixties, a relic from a time of idealism, a time when every one in Berkeley wanted a degree in the helping professions, a time when we thought anarchy was a viable alternative to bad government. We thought most people would do the right thing --- without being forced to do it. . Without government money access to many great collections will disappear from public view. And with all my idealism I still made two trips down to the Arizona desert this winter, driving a 13,000 pound motor home that gets 8 miles to the gallon. The idealist young man inside my old, worn out body keeps saying a motor home is bad for the environment. But the old man thinks of the warm, sun filled days and the great rockhounding sites in Arizona -- and he is the one with the credit card nd checkbook ;-)) Grant On 3/18/06, EUGENE HARTSTEIN wrote: > I believe it will come to the point that museums will be unable to house all > the specimens of newly discovered organisms, fossil or otherwise in a way > that they can be examined. We can already see the trends of reduced support > from the tax base, coupled with a private sector that is increasingly > pressed from all sides for contributions to noble causes. To many cancer > research seems more worthwhile than a museum for their limited contributory > funds. > > Meanwhile the cost of physically maintaining those collections grows to > staggering proportions. Maintenance of buildings, fuel to keep them climate > controlled, staff to manage collections and more continues to grow on what > has already been acquired. Museums have already begun the first steps; > making decisions around what will be their specialty, using computers to > register collections, purging material that has little scientific or public > support value. Unfortunately I suspect the trend will continue. After all > new material is still coming in. > > By the way I have acquired some pretty decent specimens of lesser scientific > value that came from museums in the process of culling collections. Culling > collections and breaking them up to go to other museums is a two edged sword > for museums. On one hand it is an economic necessity, but on the other it > risks alienating public support. There has been quite an uproar here in the > Philadelphia area because of the fact that the Academy of Natural Sciences > wants to give up its mineral collection. > > I think the next phase will be the storage of some materials in nearly > irretrievable conditions (remember the last scene in Raiders of the Lost > Ark?) and their replacement with electronic images and data.. i.e. virtual > collections. It has already begun in some instances. This will eventually > increase virtual access to collections so that just about anyone can see the > drawers in the back room (virtually) but probably make it costly to all but > impossible to actually examine real specimens in many cases. Research > programs needing the real thing will be forced to bear the cost of > retrieving and restoring such materials. Museums will have to become much > more selective (they already are) in what they can afford to keep and afford > to keep in readily accessible places. > > There seems to be a disconnect between this reality and national edicts > prohibiting private ownership or export of any fossils ( blanket > prohibition, not reasonable regulation). > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Goldstein" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:42 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > > > Tom hit the nail on the head. I am a bit biased because I worked as a > > museum curator from 1985 to 1993 and have had curatorial duties as a park > > naturalist from 1993 to the present. > > > > If you look at the vast number of paleontological specimens in museum > > collections around the world (or even just restrict it to the U.S.), you > > will find that the bulk have little or no display value or interest to the > > general public (say >99% of the people out there). Museums have many > > functions besides display. Public programming (education) is one. > > Collections management is another. You think you have trouble managing > > your personal collection? Try managing 100,000 specimens... or 1 > > million... or 100 million!!! Collections management is not for the average > > person. Of the dozens of collectors I know, very few maintain a collection > > catalog or database of ANY type! > > > > As Tom pointed out, staff and funding is an issue. If you wanted to visit > > a museum to peruse the drawers and just look at specimens, there is an > > excellent chance you would be turned down because of the lack of > > supervision and staff time. If every person who wanted to examine > > specimens for the fun of it had access, specimens would be stolen. There > > are plenty of records of staff and volunteers stealing items, so why would > > the public be any different? If you are doing bonified research or can > > contribute some knowledge by examining specimens, you would NOT be turned > > down. Museums have to secure the collections from theft -- that is their > > civic obligation -- not provide access to everyone who wants to see a > > drawer of fossils or minerals. Collections managers have to make sure that > > specimens are handled as little as possible. How many times of you dropped > > something that you immediately regretted? I know I have! Protection of the > > collections is balanced with accessibility. > > > > In this country, government spending has little to do with running a > > museum. The Smithsonian and National Park Service are the primary federal > > institutions that deal with collections - geological and other. Many state > > museums exist under the auspices of state government, such as the Indiana > > State Museum. (But there is no Kentucky State Museum or Ohio State > > Museum.) Some municipal museums exist. The bulk of the museums are run by > > non-profit foundations. > > > > The number of academic museums - those with curators doing research - is a > > shrinking number. Universities are turning their museums over to other > > institutions in record numbers because they want to shed the financial > > obligations museum management encumbers. A few years ago, the University > > of Cincinnati turned over their entire geology (=paleontology) collections > > to the Cincinnati Museum Center because the professors who ran the museum > > wanted to focus on research and classroom duties and not collections > > management. (They wanted to turn it over to the professionals.) A > > paleontology curator at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago > > told me last year that academic museums are like a university without > > alumni financial support. The depend on grants, admissions, gift shop > > sales, and education program fees to support the collections management. > > This is also true for the Denver, Carnegie, American Museum, ad nauseum... > > > > Most paleontology research involve studying as many specimens of a species > > as is necessary for the proper analyitcal work. Some fossil species are > > represented a SINGLE specimen. I have donated several new species > > Mississippian crinoids (and co-authored two papers with other > > paleontologists) represented by one or two specimens. Why would I want to > > own a holotype? That is greed, pure and simple. Some research involves > > population studies with the examination of hundreds or thousands of > > specimens (for instance, Athyris brachiopods or specific shark teeth). > > Museums with large collections exist to serve those needs -- as well as > > the curious visitor only interested in looking at an exihibit in the > > gallery. > > > > If you are hellbent on getting behind the scenes and look at the vast > > percentage of the collection that is stored, I have two suggestions. > > Option one, get involved in research... make a contribution to the world > > of paleontology. Option two, volunteer at the closest museum that has a > > geology collection you would like to see. Of course, that means you have > > to do something worthwhile under the tutilege of a curator or collections > > manager .. data entry, cleaning specimens, organizing specimens, etc. > > > > I realize this is quite wordy and has diverged from the original > > discussion of illegal minerals and fossils, but I think it important for > > rockhounds to have an idea how and why museums don't display everything > > and provide collection access to EVERYONE that asks. > > > > Alan > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rich Allen" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 11:08 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils > > > > > >> Well, I disagree. :) I feel that if a specimen's value is solely > >> academic, then that specimen should be stored at an academic facility > >> for academic study. A museum, again in my opinion, is a vehicle for > >> public knowledge through display. This is based mainly on the funding > >> issue you raise; if a government is spending thousands or millions to > >> keep an item in the country, why isn't that government spending more on > >> allowing the public to view these items? If a museum is unable to fund > >> the viewing of all of it's items, then why have those items at all? > >> > >> Thomas Yancey wrote: > >>> Rich and others, > >>> > >>> The greatest value of a major museum is not to put on a public display > >>> of fossils and other natural history items, but to store them for study > >>> with appropriate documentation that maintains their scientific value. > >>> Natural history museums do have a public role in display, very much a > >>> legacy of the Victorian curio cabinet style, that has stimulated the > >>> curiosity and interest of millions of viewers. But this is only a > >>> component of their primary function as a storehouse of well documented > >>> materials. > >>> > >>> As for being accessible to only a "privileged few", I assure you that > >>> the category includes people other than scientists and the real > >>> limitation on access is lack of personnel to oversee access by casual > >>> visitors, due to low levels of funding. Furthermore, the vast majority > >>> of material in a museum is very unappealing and would quickly be > >>> discarded if public viewing were the primary purpose of collections. > >>> > >>> Tom Yancey > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> michael wrote: > >>>>> And if you truly do not understand the need for museums to have > >>>>> proper > >>>>> collections of things such as minerals and fossils, I could not > >>>>> possibly > >>>>> hope to explain it to you... > >>>> > >>>> If all items "acquired" by museums through the enforcement of cultural > >>>> laws were placed on permanent public display, then I would have no > >>>> issues with the above statement. But to my knowledge, upwards of 90% > >>>> of > >>>> items acquired by museums are put into non-public storage accessible > >>>> only by a privileged few. How does that benefit anyone other than > >>>> those > >>>> privileged few? > >>>> > >>>> Rich Allen > >>>> Utah (which only has a single Natural History museum in which to house > >>>> the vast amounts of fossils found here) > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> List Home Page: > >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From roughrock at gmail.com Sat Mar 18 15:44:48 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Sat Mar 18 15:44:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have the book, "Exploring And Mining Gems & Gold In The West" by Fred Rynerson. Rynerson was one of the miners and prospectors who developed the Pala tourmaline mining district, including the Himalay Mine, in San Deigo County. The book is paperback, copyright 1967. If anybody wants to buy it contact me at roughrock@gmail.com Nathan, the pink crystal could also be kuntzsite. I know I spelled it wrong ;-)) Grant On 3/17/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San Diego > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In addition > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play in > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was lucky > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best find of > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink tourmaline > crystal. From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 18 17:37:03 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 18 17:37:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: <031920060137.12108.441CB5BC0007E67500002F4C216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi Ted, Looked at your pictures, and they are certainly good examples of tourmaline with dark green (brownish-green, or greenish-brown?) cores and near-colorless rims. As I think George Rossman points out on his Caltech color in minerals webpage, color in tourmaline is a matter of degree, and there's no precise difference between tourmaline that appears "colorless", and that which has a very faint pink or green tint. In zoned crystals like yours, where it's in contact with such a dark-colored center, it's hard to tell if the outside is truly colorless or not. A piece that looked colorless in a thin chip, might well appear faintly tinted in looking through a thicker crystal section. Good luck on the Star Trek super-strong mineral and transparent synthesis, Pete -------------- Original message from "Ted Kowalski" : -------------- > All: > This does not contradict or challenge Pete's email in any way. It's just > that his email is the one that made me get off my butt and root through my > Himalaya stuff, (after I found the stuff that is). > > Please excuse the pictures, I took them rather quickly and yes, my fingers > are in the way. http://www.wovengems.com/himalaya_files/Tourmaline.htm > > When I did my Himalaya dig two years ago I found several pieces of > Tourmaline with colorless or nearly colorless growth portions. I tend to > keep anything remotely crystalline so now I'll have to go through my > Himalaya quartz looking for small overlooked clear tourmaline. > > The piece pictured is the one that has the thickest colorless tourmaline. I > apologize for the horrible photos, I have candled this one extensively > trying to get light through the dark center and marveling at the dramatic > color change. I have another fairly large fragment, but it came from a very > faint pink core tourmaline. Without a dark field light box it is hard to see > the colorless section. > > In one of the Star Trek movies Engineer Scott introduces the concept of > transparent aluminum for building a whale aquarium. I've often thought > Tourmaline would be a good possibility for transparent aluminum > Na(Al,Fe,Li,Mg,Mn)M3Al(Si6O18)(BO3)3(OH,F)4. Technically, the Tourmaline > group are borosilicates, but there is a substantial inclusion of aluminum in > the stones we usually consider the common gem tourmalines. A better > possibility for transparent aluminum would be Topaz Al2[(F,OH)2|SiO4], > especially if the cleavage planes could be controlled. > > Ted Kowalski > Fredericksburg, VA USA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > pjmodreski@att.net > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:24 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some > questions > > It seems to be a bit hard to find any specific information on "how large do > colorless (achroite) tourmaline crystals get?". Achroite is mentioned here > and there, but generally as a sideline to the larger, showier, colored > tourmalines found at any given locality. My general impression is that > colorless tourmalines tend to only be among the smaller crystals. > > And yes, achroite of course is just a varietal name, used mainly for > gemstones (and not all that much used, there, I don't think). It's not a > "proper"mineralogical name, for a mineral species. And of course, a > colorless tourmaline is of no great consequence as a gemstone; no color to > make it look pretty, and the refractive index or dispersion, is not > particularly high; it wouldn't look any particularly different than > colorless quartz, topaz, or beryl. > > Pete > > > -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" > : -------------- > > > > I have colorless tourmaline from the Cryo-Genie mine. They are needle-like > > > crystals and are associated with very light green and pink elbaite. I'll > > post some pictures to mindat. > > > > Nate, I sent your note to a fellow who did is PhD thesis on tourmaline and > > > is still doing it. He may respond to you directly. As I recall he > considers > > achroite to be colorless elbaite and doesn't use "achroite" in his work. > > > > Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ROCKCURRIER at cs.com Sat Mar 18 18:50:24 2006 From: ROCKCURRIER at cs.com (ROCKCURRIER@cs.com) Date: Sat Mar 18 18:50:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Corless tourmaline Message-ID: <45FBDB86.14C645F8.3AEB17FB@cs.com> Dear Martin, >From Afghanistan they do every now and then get true colorless tourmaline. On one of my trips to Peshawar over 20 years ago I could have bought a bunch of faceted tourmalines all of which were over five carats. I only bought a half dozen or two in the five to ten carat range. I bought a couple of pieces of rough one of which I cut and have in my collection today. The others I irradiated and it turned out that they had enough manganese in them to turn a nice pink color so they are no longer colorless. By the time I got back a few months later there were no more colorless tourmalines offered for sale because they had also found out about the irritation trick. I have often wondered what percentage of the pink Afghani tourmalines start their lives out as white colorless crystals. Rock From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Mar 18 19:05:23 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Mar 18 18:59:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions References: <000001c64ad5$a9239a10$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <441CC8F0.191E@Tomaszewski.net> Ted Kowalski wrote: > In one of the Star Trek movies Engineer Scott introduces the concept of > transparent aluminum for building a whale aquarium. I've often thought > Tourmaline would be a good possibility for transparent aluminum > Na(Al,Fe,Li,Mg,Mn)M3Al(Si6O18)(BO3)3(OH,F)4. Technically, the Tourmaline > group are borosilicates, but there is a substantial inclusion of aluminum in > the stones we usually consider the common gem tourmalines. A better > possibility for transparent aluminum would be Topaz Al2[(F,OH)2|SiO4], > especially if the cleavage planes could be controlled. Will you settle for transparent alumina? http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/8/9 From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Sat Mar 18 19:18:25 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Sat Mar 18 19:20:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions References: <000001c64ad5$a9239a10$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> <441CC8F0.191E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <004a01c64b03$cda97de0$0400a8c0@Notebook> > Will you settle for transparent alumina? That's very cool Kreigh. Would transparent alumina be considerably lighter in weight than silica glass? John From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sat Mar 18 20:15:09 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sat Mar 18 20:15:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs><008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp><441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com><441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com><009801c64a3e$03d9f000$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000701c64a8e$65dbc170$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <008b01c64b0b$b98fa480$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> It is doubtful that museums will "run out of room." Based on the number of papers being published, there aren't an infinite number of specimens coming in every year. The crinoids from my project of 15 years ago ended up in three places: 1. Holotypes and the best of the best were deposited in the Springer Room, U.S. National Museum of Natural History (Sringer was an early 20th century crinoid specialist.) 2. Other significant specimens were deposited at the Orton Geology Museum at Ohio State University (where Dr. Ausich the lead scientist for the project works). 3. The rest are in my garage or basement. Museums don't accept everything that is offered. They are obligated by museum ethics guidelines to accept on those items that they have the resources to take care of. Removing specimens from collections (called deaccession) in museums is a very rigorous process. Museums with professional staff don't arbitrarily say, we're going to get rid of this. When museums sell deaccessioned items, funds are suppose to go to the museum collections budget, not to education, utilities, etc. I discussed the issue about the mineral collection sale of the Academy of Natural Sciences with a respected mineral conservator affiliated with a Canadian museum. His comments were that if the institute's board of directors made a policy change to change their focus and these collections were already "ophaned" (not meeting the mission of the facility), then they had the right to dispose of the collection. That doesn't mean they SHOULD sell the collection piecemeal, but they had the legal right to remove the collection from their institution's holdings. Museums have an on-going challenge to store and locate vast numbers of specimens. Most do a very good job, much better than the average rockhound. (Certainly better than me!) Virtually collections will ultimately prove to be good because in many cases that is the most practical way to make specimens available to anyone who wants to look at it. The research scientist will still have "hands-on" access. Does John Q. Public need to handle the type specimen of Abrotocrinus debrae housed in the Springer Room? I think not. (That is a crinoid named after my wife.) Defining "accessible" opens another can of worms... I agree with Gene that some of the federal rules for disposition go a bit overboard. Finding the proper museum to house a particular suite of fossils found on public lands may prove to be a challenge. I understand the intent, but the execution is not practical in all instances. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gemcollectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Illegal minerals and fossils >I believe it will come to the point that museums will be unable to house >all the specimens of newly discovered organisms, fossil or otherwise in a >way that they can be examined. We can already see the trends of reduced >support from the tax base, coupled with a private sector that is >increasingly pressed from all sides for contributions to noble causes. To >many cancer research seems more worthwhile than a museum for their limited >contributory funds. > > Meanwhile the cost of physically maintaining those collections grows to > staggering proportions. Maintenance of buildings, fuel to keep them > climate controlled, staff to manage collections and more continues to grow > on what has already been acquired. Museums have already begun the first > steps; making decisions around what will be their specialty, using > computers to register collections, purging material that has little > scientific or public support value. Unfortunately I suspect the trend will > continue. After all new material is still coming in. > > By the way I have acquired some pretty decent specimens of lesser > scientific value that came from museums in the process of culling > collections. Culling collections and breaking them up to go to other > museums is a two edged sword for museums. On one hand it is an economic > necessity, but on the other it risks alienating public support. There has > been quite an uproar here in the Philadelphia area because of the fact > that the Academy of Natural Sciences wants to give up its mineral > collection. > > I think the next phase will be the storage of some materials in nearly > irretrievable conditions (remember the last scene in Raiders of the Lost > Ark?) and their replacement with electronic images and data.. i.e. virtual > collections. It has already begun in some instances. This will eventually > increase virtual access to collections so that just about anyone can see > the drawers in the back room (virtually) but probably make it costly to > all but impossible to actually examine real specimens in many cases. > Research programs needing the real thing will be forced to bear the cost > of retrieving and restoring such materials. Museums will have to become > much more selective (they already are) in what they can afford to keep and > afford to keep in readily accessible places. > > There seems to be a disconnect between this reality and national edicts > prohibiting private ownership or export of any fossils ( blanket > prohibition, not reasonable regulation). > > Gene Hartstein > Newark, DE From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 18 20:26:48 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 18 20:26:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: <031920060426.4030.441CDD880006C59100000FBE216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> I'll jump in here and answer. 'Fraid not, John, alumina is corundum, it's heavier than quartz. Darn. Maybe something made partly of dilithium will be both light and strong. Pete -------------- Original message from "John Siebel" : -------------- > > Will you settle for transparent alumina? > > That's very cool Kreigh. Would transparent alumina be considerably lighter > in weight than silica glass? > > John > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Sat Mar 18 20:37:02 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Sat Mar 18 20:35:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: <031920060426.4030.441CDD880006C59100000FBE216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <031920060426.4030.441CDD880006C59100000FBE216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <441CDFEE.80900@verizon.net> pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > I'll jump in here and answer. > 'Fraid not, John, alumina is corundum, it's heavier than quartz. Haven't they had sapphire windows for years? You can buy them from Edmund Scientific (and I'm sure other places). However I don't know how well they'd hold enough water to host a whale--if you could even make then that big. Don From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 18 20:38:49 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 18 20:38:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: <031920060438.9984.441CE058000DB7B100002700216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> But of course, those are "windows" for optical devices, usually only a few inches at most in diameter. I think a force field would be the best way to hold the water tank for whales. Totally transparent, no distortions, no weight at all, no fabrication problems, and no shipping costs even! There you go, a simple solution. Pete -------------- Original message from DonH : -------------- > pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > > > I'll jump in here and answer. > > 'Fraid not, John, alumina is corundum, it's heavier than quartz. > > > Haven't they had sapphire windows for years? You can buy them from > Edmund Scientific (and I'm sure other places). However I don't know how > well they'd hold enough water to host a whale--if you could even make > then that big. > > Don > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 18 21:25:51 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 18 21:25:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs Message-ID: <031920060525.3940.441CEB5C000F0DD100000F64216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Taking off from the discussion of museums and storage of fossils... It really makes me wonder, what China is going to do with all those thousands (evidently) of dinosaur eggs that are being dug up, such as the ones confiscated and repatriated from the dealer previously discussed here. Will they go ahead and re-export and sell them, through "legitimate" channels? The San Diego Union-Tribune news story link that Kreigh sent, says that Kapitany's eggs, confiscated back in 2001 (the original stories made it sound like this had just happened) are still in a government warehouse in L.A. But I wouldn't be half surprised if some of these same eggs, once they are returned to China--get packed right up again and surreptitously sold to someone else by local officials, and shipped right out again, illegally back overseas. Am I being too cynical? And,... are there really as many of those Chinese hadrosaur eggs, as has being discussed here? Was it Michael in one of his posts, who said, (exaggerating? apochryphal?), about farmers using them to build fences? Are there really, thousands? tens of? hundreds of thousands? I've personally seen, well, something less than a hundred of them at one time, in Tucson. Assuming these are all genuine (they seemed to be), and if this is just the tip of the iceberg, how in the world did so many dinosaur eggs actually get buried, all in the same environment at about the same time? (Well, I know how that can happen, from floods over the "nesting" grounds, but it still boggles the mind, that this kind of treasure trove of dinosaur eggs really was preserved this way.) Does anyone know if there have there been any articles published, either in the scientific journals or the popular magazines, that actually describe these sites, where and how all these dinosaur eggs are being excavated? It seems that this would be a topic of automatic interest, for something like National Geographic. Or, has the financial interest in digging and illegally selling these eggs, made people who know about the sites, uncooperative for this kind of publicity? I know I've seen short technical articles about some aspects of these dino egg finds, but nothing that I know of, describing the "big picture" what's and how's and why's, of just how many thousands of eggs have actually been found, and how many more likely exist. Pete Modreski -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" : -------------- > It is doubtful that museums will "run out of room." Based on the number of > papers being published, there aren't an infinite number of specimens coming > in every year. The crinoids from my project of 15 years ago ended up in > three places: 1. Holotypes and the best of the best were deposited in the > Springer Room, U.S. National Museum of Natural History (Sringer was an > early 20th century crinoid specialist.) 2. Other significant specimens were > deposited at the Orton Geology Museum at Ohio State University (where Dr. > Ausich the lead scientist for the project works). 3. The rest are in my > garage or basement. Museums don't accept everything that is offered. They > are obligated by museum ethics guidelines to accept on those items that they > have the resources to take care of. > > Removing specimens from collections (called deaccession) in museums is a > very rigorous process. Museums with professional staff don't arbitrarily > say, we're going to get rid of this. When museums sell deaccessioned items, > funds are suppose to go to the museum collections budget, not to education, > utilities, etc. I discussed the issue about the mineral collection sale of > the Academy of Natural Sciences with a respected mineral conservator > affiliated with a Canadian museum. His comments were that if the institute's > board of directors made a policy change to change their focus and these > collections were already "ophaned" (not meeting the mission of the > facility), then they had the right to dispose of the collection. That > doesn't mean they SHOULD sell the collection piecemeal, but they had the > legal right to remove the collection from their institution's holdings. > > Museums have an on-going challenge to store and locate vast numbers of > specimens. Most do a very good job, much better than the average rockhound. > (Certainly better than me!) Virtually collections will ultimately prove to > be good because in many cases that is the most practical way to make > specimens available to anyone who wants to look at it. The research > scientist will still have "hands-on" access. Does John Q. Public need to > handle the type specimen of Abrotocrinus debrae housed in the Springer Room? > I think not. (That is a crinoid named after my wife.) Defining "accessible" > opens another can of worms... > > I agree with Gene that some of the federal rules for disposition go a bit > overboard. Finding the proper museum to house a particular suite of fossils > found on public lands may prove to be a challenge. I understand the intent, > but the execution is not practical in all instances. > > Alan > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Sun Mar 19 05:08:04 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Sun Mar 19 05:08:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs><008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp><441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com><441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com><009801c64a3e$03d9f000$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000701c64a8e$65dbc170$6400a8c0@hppav> <008b01c64b0b$b98fa480$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000c01c64b56$28d360d0$6400a8c0@hppav> Alan: I agree that at the present many museums will continue to be able to house materials they wish to keep. But they will have to make increasingly more difficult choices. You and I see a different future. I'm more pessimistic. I fear in the US is headed for a reduction in individual disposable income over the next few decades for a myriad of reasons. That is eventually going to impact the institutions that rely on contributions and tax dollars, even endowments if stocks respond negatively to massive conversion to cash as aging baby boomers live off their acquired wealth. I am aware that the Academy of Natural Sciences disposal of its mineral collection was to other institutions, and did not mean to imply otherwise. But the fact remains that their mission has changed so that minerals were no longer part of their focus. I am also aware that museums go through a rigorous deascessioning process and that they have rules re. acessioning in the first place. Still collectors like me have numerous specimens that have made their way to museums, either as holotypes, paratypes, future types (there is a significant backlog of papers that could be written), or additions to fill out a comparative collection. True all that I have donated for permanent keeping would fit into an 18 gallon tote, but I'm only one guy. Yes museums are bound by ethics to accession only what they can house, but economics change. We all know that numerous museums have cut staff. Of course we can say that it was to focus on their mission, but in reality they are cutting staff to meet tightening budgets. I've spent nearly 40 years in industry and have watched a very similar downward spiral. Most folks did not realize they were in a downward spiral till it was well under way. But where do we move from cutting fat to slicing into muscle and bone? I still believe that museums will face a developing crisis in the coming decades. Perhaps neither of us will be around to tell the other he was wrong. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:15 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) It is doubtful that museums will "run out of room." Based on the number of papers being published, there aren't an infinite number of specimens coming in every year. The crinoids from my project of 15 years ago ended up in three places: 1. Holotypes and the best of the best were deposited in the Springer Room, U.S. National Museum of Natural History (Sringer was an early 20th century crinoid specialist.) 2. Other significant specimens were deposited at the Orton Geology Museum at Ohio State University (where Dr. Ausich the lead scientist for the project works). 3. The rest are in my garage or basement. Museums don't accept everything that is offered. They are obligated by museum ethics guidelines to accept on those items that they have the resources to take care of. Removing specimens from collections (called deaccession) in museums is a very rigorous process. Museums with professional staff don't arbitrarily say, we're going to get rid of this. When museums sell deaccessioned items, funds are suppose to go to the museum collections budget, not to education, utilities, etc. I discussed the issue about the mineral collection sale of the Academy of Natural Sciences with a respected mineral conservator affiliated with a Canadian museum. His comments were that if the institute's board of directors made a policy change to change their focus and these collections were already "ophaned" (not meeting the mission of the facility), then they had the right to dispose of the collection. That doesn't mean they SHOULD sell the collection piecemeal, but they had the legal right to remove the collection from their institution's holdings. Museums have an on-going challenge to store and locate vast numbers of specimens. Most do a very good job, much better than the average rockhound. (Certainly better than me!) Virtually collections will ultimately prove to be good because in many cases that is the most practical way to make specimens available to anyone who wants to look at it. The research scientist will still have "hands-on" access. Does John Q. Public need to handle the type specimen of Abrotocrinus debrae housed in the Springer Room? I think not. (That is a crinoid named after my wife.) Defining "accessible" opens another can of worms... I agree with Gene that some of the federal rules for disposition go a bit overboard. Finding the proper museum to house a particular suite of fossils found on public lands may prove to be a challenge. I understand the intent, but the execution is not practical in all instances. Alan From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Sun Mar 19 05:21:10 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael) Date: Sun Mar 19 05:21:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs References: <031920060525.3940.441CEB5C000F0DD100000F64216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <005501c64b57$fcfa7c30$6802a8c0@heathercomp> >From the National Geographic website: " In the summer of 1995, Currie and fossil collectors Florence and Charlie Magovern traveled to Hubei Province in China to examine an exciting new egg site that the government guards to prevent looting. Egg-like shapes were everywhere, Currie remembers. "My first reaction was that they must be rocks, not eggs, because there were just too many of them." Children led the team from nest to nest and even through dusty village streets, where Currie noticed an egg used as a building stone. Villagers crowded around the excited egg hunters as they carefully investigated and measured eggs at the nest site. Currie and Charlie Magovern (right) found several eggs eroding right out of the soft rock of a cliff face. " one museum with over 10,000 eags from ONE locality http://english.people.com.cn/200502/03/eng20050203_172820.html ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:25 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs > Taking off from the discussion of museums and storage of fossils... > > It really makes me wonder, what China is going to do with all those > thousands (evidently) of dinosaur eggs that are being dug up, such as the > ones confiscated and repatriated from the dealer previously discussed > here. Will they go ahead and re-export and sell them, through > "legitimate" channels? The San Diego Union-Tribune news story link that > Kreigh sent, says that Kapitany's eggs, confiscated back in 2001 (the > original stories made it sound like this had just happened) are still in a > government warehouse in L.A. But I wouldn't be half surprised if some of > these same eggs, once they are returned to China--get packed right up > again and surreptitously sold to someone else by local officials, and > shipped right out again, illegally back overseas. Am I being too cynical? > > And,... are there really as many of those Chinese hadrosaur eggs, as has > being discussed here? Was it Michael in one of his posts, who said, > (exaggerating? apochryphal?), about farmers using them to build fences? > Are there really, thousands? tens of? hundreds of thousands? I've > personally seen, well, something less than a hundred of them at one time, > in Tucson. Assuming these are all genuine (they seemed to be), and if > this is just the tip of the iceberg, how in the world did so many dinosaur > eggs actually get buried, all in the same environment at about the same > time? (Well, I know how that can happen, from floods over the "nesting" > grounds, but it still boggles the mind, that this kind of treasure trove > of dinosaur eggs really was preserved this way.) > > Does anyone know if there have there been any articles published, either > in the scientific journals or the popular magazines, that actually > describe these sites, where and how all these dinosaur eggs are being > excavated? It seems that this would be a topic of automatic interest, for > something like National Geographic. Or, has the financial interest in > digging and illegally selling these eggs, made people who know about the > sites, uncooperative for this kind of publicity? I know I've seen short > technical articles about some aspects of these dino egg finds, but nothing > that I know of, describing the "big picture" what's and how's and why's, > of just how many thousands of eggs have actually been found, and how many > more likely exist. > > Pete Modreski > > > -------------- Original message from "Alan Goldstein" > : -------------- > > >> It is doubtful that museums will "run out of room." Based on the number >> of >> papers being published, there aren't an infinite number of specimens >> coming >> in every year. The crinoids from my project of 15 years ago ended up in >> three places: 1. Holotypes and the best of the best were deposited in the >> Springer Room, U.S. National Museum of Natural History (Sringer was an >> early 20th century crinoid specialist.) 2. Other significant specimens >> were >> deposited at the Orton Geology Museum at Ohio State University (where Dr. >> Ausich the lead scientist for the project works). 3. The rest are in my >> garage or basement. Museums don't accept everything that is offered. They >> are obligated by museum ethics guidelines to accept on those items that >> they >> have the resources to take care of. >> >> Removing specimens from collections (called deaccession) in museums is a >> very rigorous process. Museums with professional staff don't arbitrarily >> say, we're going to get rid of this. When museums sell deaccessioned >> items, >> funds are suppose to go to the museum collections budget, not to >> education, >> utilities, etc. I discussed the issue about the mineral collection sale >> of >> the Academy of Natural Sciences with a respected mineral conservator >> affiliated with a Canadian museum. His comments were that if the >> institute's >> board of directors made a policy change to change their focus and these >> collections were already "ophaned" (not meeting the mission of the >> facility), then they had the right to dispose of the collection. That >> doesn't mean they SHOULD sell the collection piecemeal, but they had the >> legal right to remove the collection from their institution's holdings. >> >> Museums have an on-going challenge to store and locate vast numbers of >> specimens. Most do a very good job, much better than the average >> rockhound. >> (Certainly better than me!) Virtually collections will ultimately prove >> to >> be good because in many cases that is the most practical way to make >> specimens available to anyone who wants to look at it. The research >> scientist will still have "hands-on" access. Does John Q. Public need to >> handle the type specimen of Abrotocrinus debrae housed in the Springer >> Room? >> I think not. (That is a crinoid named after my wife.) Defining >> "accessible" >> opens another can of worms... >> >> I agree with Gene that some of the federal rules for disposition go a bit >> overboard. Finding the proper museum to house a particular suite of >> fossils >> found on public lands may prove to be a challenge. I understand the >> intent, >> but the execution is not practical in all instances. >> >> Alan >> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tim at orerockon.com Sun Mar 19 06:26:36 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Mar 19 06:26:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs In-Reply-To: <005501c64b57$fcfa7c30$6802a8c0@heathercomp> References: <031920060525.3940.441CEB5C000F0DD100000F64216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <005501c64b57$fcfa7c30$6802a8c0@heathercomp> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060319061447.034c12c8@orerockon.com> The article on dino eggs and lots of cool pictures were in National Geographic magazine. It looked like an ostrich egg factory had flooded :) And the link to the right of Michael's egg pictures has the idiotic statement below: The Australian government on Monday in Canberra handed back to China confiscated dinosaur eggs and other fossils believed to be millions of years old. At a ceremony held here, Minister for Justice and Customs Christopher Ellison gave a list of 32 fossils seized by Australian Customs for the past year to Chinese Ambassador to Australia Fu Ying. The fossils include 25 dinosaur eggs, three dinosaur egg pieces,three fish slabs and one sinohydrosaur fossil. Among a number of fossils displayed at the ceremony were a 130-million-year-old slab of fossil fish, a 130-million-year-old marine reptile and five 65-million-year-old dinosaur eggs. The fossils, illegally exported from China and imported into Australia, had been seized at the request of China. Some of the fossils were believed to be from China's Henan Province and originated in the Cretaceous Period (100 million years ago). Ellison told reporters that "The Australian government has great respect for the significance of these items in Chinese history and culture, and we are one of the first countries to take direct action to help China deter the illegal international trade in fossils and artifacts." ----> He did not give a value of the fossils but estimated a dinosaur egg could be priced at 15,000 dollars (about 10,500 US dollars).<---- No wonder they are being smuggled out. At that price the museum's collection is worth a cool $105 million dollars. Yeah right. And hey look they got a fake hydrosaur back. betcha that one gets sold to a touristo.. At 05:21 AM 3/19/2006, you wrote: > From the National Geographic website: > >" In the summer of 1995, Currie and fossil collectors Florence and >Charlie Magovern traveled to Hubei Province in China to examine an >exciting new egg site that the government guards to prevent looting. >Egg-like shapes were everywhere, Currie remembers. "My first >reaction was that they must be rocks, not eggs, because there were >just too many of them." Children led the team from nest to nest and >even through dusty village streets, where Currie noticed an egg used >as a building stone. Villagers crowded around the excited egg >hunters as they carefully investigated and measured eggs at the nest >site. Currie and Charlie Magovern (right) found several eggs eroding >right out of the soft rock of a cliff face. " > > >one museum with over 10,000 eags from ONE locality > >http://english.people.com.cn/200502/03/eng20050203_172820.html > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From pjmodreski at att.net Sun Mar 19 07:11:51 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sun Mar 19 07:11:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs Message-ID: <031920061511.28200.441D74B50004ED3E00006E28216028074107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Thanks for the info and links, Michael. I've looked at the People's Daily Online, National Geographic, and Stone Company's websites (the latter has the most detailed story & info about the Henan dinosaur eggs). And I see that the National Geographic article was in May, 1996, "The Great Dinosaur Egg Hunt". That takes me back to my perennial challenge; figuring out where my copy of a past issue of Nat. Geogr. might be--"it's got to be around, somewhere". Thanks again, Pete -------------- Original message from michael : -------------- > >From the National Geographic website: > > " In the summer of 1995, Currie and fossil collectors Florence and Charlie > Magovern traveled to Hubei Province in China to examine an exciting new egg > site that the government guards to prevent looting. Egg-like shapes were > everywhere, Currie remembers. "My first reaction was that they must be > rocks, not eggs, because there were just too many of them." Children led the > team from nest to nest and even through dusty village streets, where Currie > noticed an egg used as a building stone. Villagers crowded around the > excited egg hunters as they carefully investigated and measured eggs at the > nest site. Currie and Charlie Magovern (right) found several eggs eroding > right out of the soft rock of a cliff face. " > > > one museum with over 10,000 eags from ONE locality > > http://english.people.com.cn/200502/03/eng20050203_172820.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 10:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs > > > > Taking off from the discussion of museums and storage of fossils... > > > > It really makes me wonder, what China is going to do with all those > > thousands (evidently) of dinosaur eggs that are being dug up, such as the > > ones confiscated and repatriated from the dealer previously discussed > > here. Will they go ahead and re-export and sell them, through > > "legitimate" channels? The San Diego Union-Tribune news story link that > > Kreigh sent, says that Kapitany's eggs, confiscated back in 2001 (the > > original stories made it sound like this had just happened) are still in a > > government warehouse in L.A. But I wouldn't be half surprised if some of > > these same eggs, once they are returned to China--get packed right up > > again and surreptitously sold to someone else by local officials, and > > shipped right out again, illegally back overseas. Am I being too cynical? > > > > And,... are there really as many of those Chinese hadrosaur eggs, as has > > being discussed here? Was it Michael in one of his posts, who said, > > (exaggerating? apochryphal?), about farmers using them to build fences? > > Are there really, thousands? tens of? hundreds of thousands? I've > > personally seen, well, something less than a hundred of them at one time, > > in Tucson. Assuming these are all genuine (they seemed to be), and if > > this is just the tip of the iceberg, how in the world did so many dinosaur > > eggs actually get buried, all in the same environment at about the same > > time? (Well, I know how that can happen, from floods over the "nesting" > > grounds, but it still boggles the mind, that this kind of treasure trove > > of dinosaur eggs really was preserved this way.) > > > > Does anyone know if there have there been any articles published, either > > in the scientific journals or the popular magazines, that actually > > describe these sites, where and how all these dinosaur eggs are being > > excavated? It seems that this would be a topic of automatic interest, for > > something like National Geographic. Or, has the financial interest in > > digging and illegally selling these eggs, made people who know about the > > sites, uncooperative for this kind of publicity? I know I've seen short > > technical articles about some aspects of these dino egg finds, but nothing > > that I know of, describing the "big picture" what's and how's and why's, > > of just how many thousands of eggs have actually been found, and how many > > more likely exist. > > > > Pete Modreski > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From bouldercreek at shaw.ca Sun Mar 19 08:24:32 2006 From: bouldercreek at shaw.ca (Chuck Anderson) Date: Sun Mar 19 08:24:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Thunder Bay Amethyst Message-ID: <003901c64b71$9b1ec330$d2e86d18@userc8c98cd8b9> Hi All Boulder Creek Amethyst Mines in Thunder Bay Ontario Canada is cordially inviting anyone interested in visiting our mine site for the 2006 season We have some of the finest amethyst that has been seen from this area in years.The mine opens in May and reservations are requested. We have a number of mine sites for your digging pleasure.For more info email me at bouldercreek@shaw.ca or visit our web site at http://bouldercreek.cjb.net Thanks for a great list Chuck Anderson Boulder Creek Amethyst Mines From info at wisdomofstones.com Sun Mar 19 08:41:51 2006 From: info at wisdomofstones.com (Jennifer Isham) Date: Sun Mar 19 08:41:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions In-Reply-To: <031920061511.28200.441D74B50004ED3E00006E28216028074107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: Does anyone know if UPS ships to "PMB" (private mailbox) addresses? I have a lamp I need to ship to someone and they sent me a PMB address that has the PMB number and the street address of where the PMB company is. I'm assuming the PMB is either the person's home or one of these commercial places that has mailboxes you can rent. I asked the person as well and am waiting to hear back but wanted to know if anyone on the list has had experience with shipping to these kinds of addresses. An off-topic question, I know, but good to know as well in case I start wanting to send stones and rocks through the mail to this, and other people perhaps as well. thanks! jennifer From gene at fossilnut.com Sun Mar 19 09:19:40 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Sun Mar 19 09:19:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions References: Message-ID: <000f01c64b79$4e716c60$6400a8c0@hppav> Jennifer. I did a quick search of the UPS site for delivery restricitons and got nearly 100 hits UGH! It's probably best to check with the destination. A fair number of PMB's are at UPS stores and UPS positively delivers to those. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Isham" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions > Does anyone know if UPS ships to "PMB" (private mailbox) addresses? I > have > a lamp I need to ship to someone and they sent me a PMB address that has > the > PMB number and the street address of where the PMB company is. I'm > assuming > the PMB is either the person's home or one of these commercial places that > has mailboxes you can rent. I asked the person as well and am waiting to > hear back but wanted to know if anyone on the list has had experience with > shipping to these kinds of addresses. An off-topic question, I know, but > good to know as well in case I start wanting to send stones and rocks > through the mail to this, and other people perhaps as well. > > thanks! > > jennifer > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org Sun Mar 19 09:23:00 2006 From: jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org (jennifer isham) Date: Sun Mar 19 09:22:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions In-Reply-To: <000f01c64b79$4e716c60$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: thanks gene -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of EUGENE HARTSTEIN Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:20 AM To: info@wisdomofstones.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions Jennifer. I did a quick search of the UPS site for delivery restricitons and got nearly 100 hits UGH! It's probably best to check with the destination. A fair number of PMB's are at UPS stores and UPS positively delivers to those. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Isham" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions > Does anyone know if UPS ships to "PMB" (private mailbox) addresses? I > have > a lamp I need to ship to someone and they sent me a PMB address that has > the > PMB number and the street address of where the PMB company is. I'm > assuming > the PMB is either the person's home or one of these commercial places that > has mailboxes you can rent. I asked the person as well and am waiting to > hear back but wanted to know if anyone on the list has had experience with > shipping to these kinds of addresses. An off-topic question, I know, but > good to know as well in case I start wanting to send stones and rocks > through the mail to this, and other people perhaps as well. > > thanks! > > jennifer > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From efkern at earthlink.net Sun Mar 19 09:28:06 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sun Mar 19 09:28:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions References: Message-ID: <000301c64b7a$7d403110$9b91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> No UPS does not...not even to USPO box numbers. You can sent it by US Postal Service though. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jennifer Isham" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:41 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions Does anyone know if UPS ships to "PMB" (private mailbox) addresses? I have a lamp I need to ship to someone and they sent me a PMB address that has the PMB number and the street address of where the PMB company is. I'm assuming the PMB is either the person's home or one of these commercial places that has mailboxes you can rent. I asked the person as well and am waiting to hear back but wanted to know if anyone on the list has had experience with shipping to these kinds of addresses. An off-topic question, I know, but good to know as well in case I start wanting to send stones and rocks through the mail to this, and other people perhaps as well. thanks! jennifer _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From naturesemp at earthlink.net Sun Mar 19 09:31:45 2006 From: naturesemp at earthlink.net (Nature's Emporium Customer Service) Date: Sun Mar 19 09:32:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions Message-ID: <001501c64b7b$01e17050$43c9010a@yourm5d4u9r2uv> UPS will deliver to a PMB's just not post office boxes. Gloria On 3/19/2006 8:41:51 AM, Jennifer Isham (info@wisdomofstones.com) wrote: > Does anyone know if UPS ships to "PMB" (private mailbox) addresses? I > have > a lamp I need to ship to someone and they sent me a PMB address that > has the > PMB number and the street address of where the PMB company is. > I'm assuming > the PMB is either the person's home or one of these > commercial places that > has mailboxes you can rent. I asked the person as well and am waiting to > hear back but wanted to know if anyone on the list has had experience > with > shipping to these kinds of addresses. An off-topic question, I know, > but > good to know as well in case I start wanting to send stones and rocks > through the mail to this, and other people perhaps as well. > > thanks! > > jennifer > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rocknate at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 12:19:10 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Sun Mar 19 12:19:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grant, The pink crystal I found is definitely tourmaline as it has the classic trigonal cross section with good faces on all three sides. Actually, unlike several of the other mines in the Pala district the mines in the Himalaya dike system have little or no spodumene and hence no kunzite. Nate On 3/18/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > I have the book, "Exploring And Mining Gems & Gold In The West" by > Fred Rynerson. Rynerson was one of the miners and prospectors who > developed the Pala tourmaline mining district, including the Himalay > Mine, in San Deigo County. The book is paperback, copyright 1967. > > If anybody wants to buy it contact me at roughrock@gmail.com > > Nathan, the pink crystal could also be kuntzsite. I know I spelled it > wrong ;-)) > > Grant > > On 3/17/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San > Diego > > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In > addition > > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play > in > > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was > lucky > > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best > find of > > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink > tourmaline > > crystal. > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dwest122 at comcast.net Sun Mar 19 12:27:27 2006 From: dwest122 at comcast.net (Dave West) Date: Sun Mar 19 12:26:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Silver question Message-ID: <003d01c64b93$8ab39b20$6600a8c0@davehxbu4rrruh> Can anyone tell me what a "silver bud" is? I am thinking it is either a nugget or wire in a tight formation. I know I should know this but the connection between my memory cells seems to have blown a fuse. Thanks in advance. DaveW --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rik.dillen at skynet.be Sun Mar 19 12:39:27 2006 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Sun Mar 19 12:39:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060319061447.034c12c8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <001a01c64b95$37c7a940$a913f251@Rik> Yeah... I'm rich... I have almost 200 Million years old floor tiles in my kitchen. They must be worth far more than my neighbour's only 70 million years old floor. I'm wondering why officials and reporters are always emphasizing on the (physical) age of the stuff. Nearly every rock in anyone's neighbourhood is millions of years old. So nothing special about that ! Grts, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2006 - 6 and 7 May 2006 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 3:27 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Museums... and dinosaur eggs The article on dino eggs and lots of cool pictures were in National Geographic magazine. It looked like an ostrich egg factory had flooded :) And the link to the right of Michael's egg pictures has the idiotic statement below: The Australian government on Monday in Canberra handed back to China confiscated dinosaur eggs and other fossils believed to be millions of years old. At a ceremony held here, Minister for Justice and Customs Christopher Ellison gave a list of 32 fossils seized by Australian Customs for the past year to Chinese Ambassador to Australia Fu Ying. The fossils include 25 dinosaur eggs, three dinosaur egg pieces,three fish slabs and one sinohydrosaur fossil. Among a number of fossils displayed at the ceremony were a 130-million-year-old slab of fossil fish, a 130-million-year-old marine reptile and five 65-million-year-old dinosaur eggs. The fossils, illegally exported from China and imported into Australia, had been seized at the request of China. Some of the fossils were believed to be from China's Henan Province and originated in the Cretaceous Period (100 million years ago). Ellison told reporters that "The Australian government has great respect for the significance of these items in Chinese history and culture, and we are one of the first countries to take direct action to help China deter the illegal international trade in fossils and artifacts." ----> He did not give a value of the fossils but estimated a dinosaur egg could be priced at 15,000 dollars (about 10,500 US dollars).<---- No wonder they are being smuggled out. At that price the museum's collection is worth a cool $105 million dollars. Yeah right. And hey look they got a fake hydrosaur back. betcha that one gets sold to a touristo.. At 05:21 AM 3/19/2006, you wrote: > From the National Geographic website: > >" In the summer of 1995, Currie and fossil collectors Florence and >Charlie Magovern traveled to Hubei Province in China to examine an >exciting new egg site that the government guards to prevent looting. >Egg-like shapes were everywhere, Currie remembers. "My first >reaction was that they must be rocks, not eggs, because there were >just too many of them." Children led the team from nest to nest and >even through dusty village streets, where Currie noticed an egg used >as a building stone. Villagers crowded around the excited egg >hunters as they carefully investigated and measured eggs at the nest >site. Currie and Charlie Magovern (right) found several eggs eroding >right out of the soft rock of a cliff face. " > > >one museum with over 10,000 eags from ONE locality > >http://english.people.com.cn/200502/03/eng20050203_172820.html > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From roughrock at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 13:00:32 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Sun Mar 19 13:00:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) In-Reply-To: <000c01c64b56$28d360d0$6400a8c0@hppav> References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> <008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp> <441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com> <441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com> <009801c64a3e$03d9f000$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000701c64a8e$65dbc170$6400a8c0@hppav> <008b01c64b0b$b98fa480$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000c01c64b56$28d360d0$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: I remember going in the California State Mining and Mineral Museum in Mariposa, CA and finding a bunch of 1 X 1 sample boxes for sale for $2 each. Most had tiny hand written labels and many were worth much more than the $2 price. I asked the lady in the museum how they acquired them and who determined the price? She said they were left to to the museum by an estate and nobody there knew what they were worth so the price was arbitrarily set at $2 each. She also volunteered the information that somebody bought two flats of them the first day they were for sale. I bought several samples, including amblygonite and Inesite, that I would never have seen as a rockghound. Still, I've always wondered what the two flats that sold earlier contained. I guess the museum got some money they needed but I wish an expert had looked them over before selling them. Grant On 3/19/06, EUGENE HARTSTEIN wrote: > Alan: > > I agree that at the present many museums will continue to be able to house > materials they wish to keep. But they will have to make increasingly more > difficult choices. > > You and I see a different future. I'm more pessimistic. I fear in the US is > headed for a reduction in individual disposable income over the next few > decades for a myriad of reasons. That is eventually going to impact the > institutions that rely on contributions and tax dollars, even endowments if > stocks respond negatively to massive conversion to cash as aging baby > boomers live off their acquired wealth. > > I am aware that the Academy of Natural Sciences disposal of its mineral > collection was to other institutions, and did not mean to imply otherwise. > But the fact remains that their mission has changed so that minerals were no > longer part of their focus. > > I am also aware that museums go through a rigorous deascessioning process > and that they have rules re. acessioning in the first place. Still > collectors like me have numerous specimens that have made their way to > museums, either as holotypes, paratypes, future types (there is a > significant backlog of papers that could be written), or additions to fill > out a comparative collection. From RCasmier at aol.com Sun Mar 19 13:41:52 2006 From: RCasmier at aol.com (RCasmier@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 19 13:42:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions Message-ID: <254.85e79b3.314f2a20@aol.com> Customers of Private Mail Box companies (known as Commercial Mail Receiving Agencies, CMRAs) cannot use the address designation "Post Office Box" or "P O Box". The use of that term is reserved only for use at post offices or Contract Postal Units (CPU) which are under contract with the Postal Service to provide certain mail services. However, the customers of CMRAs can use Box, #, unit, suite, etc in their address. The Postal Service and other delivery services hand the mail to the CMRA. The CMRA places "mail" in the boxes, not the Postal Service. Therefore, any courier delivering an item to a CMRA hands the item over to the owner operator for delivery to the customer of the CMRA. Richard --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From roughrock at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 14:25:07 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Sun Mar 19 14:25:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Nate, That's interesting about the spodumene. I just bought a bag of mud from the Himalaya Mine while I was at the Turlock Rock and Gem show last weekend. I found several large, translucent, pink pieces in it. They are very easy to spot because of the bright color. On a postage scale they weigh about 1 1/2 ounces. I checked for pleochroism and because of that I decided they were kunzite. They seemed to be darker when I looked through the end of the crystal and lighter viewed from the side. However, the two largest pieces are definitely triangular. Does tourmaline show pleochroism? What would I look for to see the "classic trigonal cross section" you mentioned? Are there any easy ways for a beginner to tell the difference between tourmaline and kunzite? There were several other very interesting things in that mud, including several totally clear crystals. The largest of those is almost as big as a small egg. I think it's clear quartz. And there are two big black pieces that do not look triangular. They have lines along the length of them, which gives them a fiberous appearence.Together they weigh about 4 ounces. There are also several white pieces with smal black spots. I'm a rockhound and I'm just learning about these things that come from holes in the ground. Last summer I was at Chris Rose's Spectrum Sunstone Mine with my grandson, but that's pit mining, not mine shafts. Chris was not there but my grandson had a great time digging sunstones. Jessica spent a lot of time showing him how to screen the free pile at the Spectrum -- and he was well rewarded with a hand full of clear sunstones and a little bit of color. When I saw the High Desert booth at Turlock I bought the bag of mud from the Himalaya Mine. Again, Chris was not there but a smililing Jessaca was busy answering questions. Between the questions we exchanged stories about breaking down or getting stuck in the mud on the dirt roads around Adel, OR.and Surprise Valley, CA. I think I got a good return on my money, even if I don't know what everything is yet. Grant On 3/19/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > Grant, > > The pink crystal I found is definitely tourmaline as it has the classic > trigonal cross section with good faces on all three sides. Actually, unlike > several of the other mines in the Pala district the mines in the Himalaya > dike system have little or no spodumene and hence no kunzite. > > Nate > > On 3/18/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > I have the book, "Exploring And Mining Gems & Gold In The West" by > > Fred Rynerson. Rynerson was one of the miners and prospectors who > > developed the Pala tourmaline mining district, including the Himalay > > Mine, in San Deigo County. The book is paperback, copyright 1967. > > > > If anybody wants to buy it contact me at roughrock@gmail.com > > > > Nathan, the pink crystal could also be kuntzsite. I know I spelled it > > wrong ;-)) > > > > Grant > > > > On 3/17/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San > > Diego > > > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In > > addition > > > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play > > in > > > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was > > lucky > > > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best > > find of > > > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink > > tourmaline > > > crystal. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From bova at mindspring.com Sun Mar 19 16:05:42 2006 From: bova at mindspring.com (Carol J. Bova) Date: Sun Mar 19 16:05:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: <000001c64ad5$a9239a10$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <456C49A2-B7A5-11DA-8079-000A95773806@mindspring.com> Some new questions: I can see where some pink crystals could lose all color when exposed to extreme heat, but what would account for colorless zones between other colors? (Some are tinted slightly, but some are water clear. See pic links below.) Would tourmaline's piezoelectricity have any impact on coloration? Carol Mathews, VA tricolor xtls- colorless centers http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/tric1.jpg enlargement 18x6mm xtl and cross-section with colorless centers http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/triclg.jpg faceted slice of watermelon tourmaline http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/watermelon1.jpg close up faceted watermelon slice http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/watermelon2.jpg faceted watermelon slice from above http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/watermelon3.jpg On Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 04:48 PM, Ted Kowalski wrote: > All: > This does not contradict or challenge Pete's email in any way. It's > just > that his email is the one that made me get off my butt and root > through my > Himalaya stuff, (after I found the stuff that is). > > Please excuse the pictures, I took them rather quickly and yes, my > fingers > are in the way. http://www.wovengems.com/himalaya_files/Tourmaline.htm > > When I did my Himalaya dig two years ago I found several pieces of > Tourmaline with colorless or nearly colorless growth portions. I tend > to > keep anything remotely crystalline so now I'll have to go through my > Himalaya quartz looking for small overlooked clear tourmaline. > > The piece pictured is the one that has the thickest colorless > tourmaline. I > apologize for the horrible photos, I have candled this one extensively > trying to get light through the dark center and marveling at the > dramatic > color change. I have another fairly large fragment, but it came from a > very > faint pink core tourmaline. Without a dark field light box it is hard > to see > the colorless section. > Ted Kowalski > Fredericksburg, VA US --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/enriched --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Sun Mar 19 16:06:22 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Sun Mar 19 16:06:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c64bb2$03995480$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Grant: Tourmaline is dichroic which is one form of Pleochroism. The color is often darker when seen on the end of the crystal. The dark fibrous looking stuff is also Tourmaline, often call schorl http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/schorl/schorl.htm. The pieces you have came from larger crystals which are often triangular. I believe the "fibers" are long very thin crystals. The clear stuff is likely quartz... But, in the Himalaya pegmatites it could also be clear tourmaline, topaz, or goshenite (colorless beryl). The white pieces with black spots are likely albite with small pieces of schorl. Since we are on the topic of the Himalaya, I interject a note that the Smithsonian not only has some incredible Tourmaline Crystal http://photo2.si.edu/prize/tourm.gif displays, but also has a pocket from the Himalaya on display. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Grant Johnston Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 5:25 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Hi Nate, That's interesting about the spodumene. I just bought a bag of mud from the Himalaya Mine while I was at the Turlock Rock and Gem show last weekend. I found several large, translucent, pink pieces in it. They are very easy to spot because of the bright color. On a postage scale they weigh about 1 1/2 ounces. I checked for pleochroism and because of that I decided they were kunzite. They seemed to be darker when I looked through the end of the crystal and lighter viewed from the side. However, the two largest pieces are definitely triangular. Does tourmaline show pleochroism? What would I look for to see the "classic trigonal cross section" you mentioned? Are there any easy ways for a beginner to tell the difference between tourmaline and kunzite? There were several other very interesting things in that mud, including several totally clear crystals. The largest of those is almost as big as a small egg. I think it's clear quartz. And there are two big black pieces that do not look triangular. They have lines along the length of them, which gives them a fiberous appearence.Together they weigh about 4 ounces. There are also several white pieces with smal black spots. I'm a rockhound and I'm just learning about these things that come from holes in the ground. Last summer I was at Chris Rose's Spectrum Sunstone Mine with my grandson, but that's pit mining, not mine shafts. Chris was not there but my grandson had a great time digging sunstones. Jessica spent a lot of time showing him how to screen the free pile at the Spectrum -- and he was well rewarded with a hand full of clear sunstones and a little bit of color. When I saw the High Desert booth at Turlock I bought the bag of mud from the Himalaya Mine. Again, Chris was not there but a smililing Jessaca was busy answering questions. Between the questions we exchanged stories about breaking down or getting stuck in the mud on the dirt roads around Adel, OR.and Surprise Valley, CA. I think I got a good return on my money, even if I don't know what everything is yet. Grant On 3/19/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > Grant, > > The pink crystal I found is definitely tourmaline as it has the classic > trigonal cross section with good faces on all three sides. Actually, unlike > several of the other mines in the Pala district the mines in the Himalaya > dike system have little or no spodumene and hence no kunzite. > > Nate > > On 3/18/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > I have the book, "Exploring And Mining Gems & Gold In The West" by > > Fred Rynerson. Rynerson was one of the miners and prospectors who > > developed the Pala tourmaline mining district, including the Himalay > > Mine, in San Deigo County. The book is paperback, copyright 1967. > > > > If anybody wants to buy it contact me at roughrock@gmail.com > > > > Nathan, the pink crystal could also be kuntzsite. I know I spelled it > > wrong ;-)) > > > > Grant > > > > On 3/17/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in San > > Diego > > > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In > > addition > > > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to play > > in > > > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was > > lucky > > > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best > > find of > > > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink > > tourmaline > > > crystal. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From info at wisdomofstones.com Sun Mar 19 16:15:51 2006 From: info at wisdomofstones.com (Jennifer Isham) Date: Sun Mar 19 16:15:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions In-Reply-To: <000301c64b7a$7d403110$9b91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: Thanks to all who responded to my question about UPS and PMB's. I'll let you know what I learn tomorrow as the person I'm sending the lamp to emailed me and said UPS will deliver to her PMB. Let's see what UPS says tomorrow :-) best, jennifer From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Mar 19 17:07:14 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Mar 19 17:07:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water color In-Reply-To: References: <20060317122022.25210.qmail@web34604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The water in north and central Florida is the same. The cause is leached material from leaves and is called Humic and Fulvic acids (which is probably more than you wanted to know.). I recall a friend's wife, who was from New York IIRC, and she refused to go swimming in the dirty brown water, even tho it is actually very clean water. I guess it must have reminded her of the East River, the color in that comes from other sources of browness...heh Some tropical fish actually do better in the brown water, Neon Tetras for one, since it matches their native Orinoco water. BK On 3/17/06, Glenn Wimpee wrote: > > We call it "tea colored water" due to the leaching of leaf materials in > the ponds and many streams in this area. > > > > Glenn > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sun Mar 19 18:48:09 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sun Mar 19 18:48:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) References: <000e01c64986$a7b1a3c0$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs><008101c6498d$99c1a920$6802a8c0@heathercomp><441AD1D5.7000501@ricosweb.com><441ADEFE.6010907@ricosweb.com><009801c64a3e$03d9f000$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000701c64a8e$65dbc170$6400a8c0@hppav><008b01c64b0b$b98fa480$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000c01c64b56$28d360d0$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <006501c64bc8$b97dce50$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> With many donations , difficult choices must be made. At the park where I work, many potential donations are turned away because they are irrelevant to our mission, are of poor quality, or I know of a better place that can use them. In February, I donated my collection of about 800 catalogued sedimentary, igneous and metamorphic rocks to the Indianapolis Children's Museum. These are specimens that are mostly well-documented, including locality and stratigraphic data. I first approached the Indiana State Museum, because the natural history curator (a friend) indicated they might be able to use them. My offer was that they take the entire collection and use what they don't want to accession for their education collection. When I sent the catalogue, the geology curator (who had been out on maternity leave) took a look at it and indicated they could use a few specimens, but didn't want to add to their education collection stockpile. I then approached the Cincinnati Museum Center (another regional research museum) with the same offer. They were interested, but like the other wanted only about 20 specimens. They were/are in the process of re-evaluating their non-paleontology collections because of reduced curatorial staff size. If the Children's Museum didn't want it, I was going to offer it to a university for their petrology class. My experience indicates that museums are being selective as to their collection acquisitions. I have been in the new collections storage facilities at the IMS and the CMC -- they will be able to acquire specimens at a reasonable rate for another 100 years. Regarding the second paragraph, I agree that by-in-large disposable income is on the down-swing. I'll probably never be able to retire! The U.S. is one the few immigrant nations on this planet and according to a statistician I heard speak last year, indicated that immigration will keep our general population from aging as fast as Europe and China. But I digress... There are hundreds of problems affecting museums, the financial health is an on-going concern. I am keeping up with these issues through professional museum organizations of which I am a member. As a result, more than museums I am concerned about the decreasing numbers of paleontologists who specialize in taxonomic groups. There are many types of fossils out there that have few or no experts in the U.S. Ultimately if you are I find a new species, we are more likely to give it to an expert so it can be described that do the research ourselves. The paleontologists are aware (through their own work) of the most appropriate repositories for those specimens. Going back to the root issue, illegal fossils, there is certainly concern on my part about rules that make collecting difficult in areas that are outside of national and state parks. I am concerned about illegal exports of fossils unless through government approved sources (sounds like kickbacks to me). I am concerned about people in government agencies who know not what they speak. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) > Alan: > > I agree that at the present many museums will continue to be able to house > materials they wish to keep. But they will have to make increasingly more > difficult choices. > > You and I see a different future. I'm more pessimistic. I fear in the US > is headed for a reduction in individual disposable income over the next > few decades for a myriad of reasons. That is eventually going to impact > the institutions that rely on contributions and tax dollars, even > endowments if stocks respond negatively to massive conversion to cash as > aging baby boomers live off their acquired wealth. > > I am aware that the Academy of Natural Sciences disposal of its mineral > collection was to other institutions, and did not mean to imply otherwise. > But the fact remains that their mission has changed so that minerals were > no longer part of their focus. > > I am also aware that museums go through a rigorous deascessioning process > and that they have rules re. acessioning in the first place. Still > collectors like me have numerous specimens that have made their way to > museums, either as holotypes, paratypes, future types (there is a > significant backlog of papers that could be written), or additions to fill > out a comparative collection. > > True all that I have donated for permanent keeping would fit into an 18 > gallon tote, but I'm only one guy. Yes museums are bound by ethics to > accession only what they can house, but economics change. > > We all know that numerous museums have cut staff. Of course we can say > that it was to focus on their mission, but in reality they are cutting > staff to meet tightening budgets. I've spent nearly 40 years in industry > and have watched a very similar downward spiral. Most folks did not > realize they were in a downward spiral till it was well under way. But > where do we move from cutting fat to slicing into muscle and bone? > > I still believe that museums will face a developing crisis in the coming > decades. Perhaps neither of us will be around to tell the other he was > wrong. > > Gene > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Goldstein" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:15 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Access to museum collections (minerals and fossils) > > It is doubtful that museums will "run out of room." Based on the number of > papers being published, there aren't an infinite number of specimens > coming > in every year. The crinoids from my project of 15 years ago ended up in > three places: 1. Holotypes and the best of the best were deposited in the > Springer Room, U.S. National Museum of Natural History (Sringer was an > early 20th century crinoid specialist.) 2. Other significant specimens > were > deposited at the Orton Geology Museum at Ohio State University (where Dr. > Ausich the lead scientist for the project works). 3. The rest are in my > garage or basement. Museums don't accept everything that is offered. They > are obligated by museum ethics guidelines to accept on those items that > they > have the resources to take care of. > > Removing specimens from collections (called deaccession) in museums is a > very rigorous process. Museums with professional staff don't arbitrarily > say, we're going to get rid of this. When museums sell deaccessioned > items, > funds are suppose to go to the museum collections budget, not to > education, > utilities, etc. I discussed the issue about the mineral collection sale of > the Academy of Natural Sciences with a respected mineral conservator > affiliated with a Canadian museum. His comments were that if the > institute's > board of directors made a policy change to change their focus and these > collections were already "ophaned" (not meeting the mission of the > facility), then they had the right to dispose of the collection. That > doesn't mean they SHOULD sell the collection piecemeal, but they had the > legal right to remove the collection from their institution's holdings. > > Museums have an on-going challenge to store and locate vast numbers of > specimens. Most do a very good job, much better than the average > rockhound. > (Certainly better than me!) Virtually collections will ultimately prove to > be good because in many cases that is the most practical way to make > specimens available to anyone who wants to look at it. The research > scientist will still have "hands-on" access. Does John Q. Public need to > handle the type specimen of Abrotocrinus debrae housed in the Springer > Room? > I think not. (That is a crinoid named after my wife.) Defining > "accessible" > opens another can of worms... > > I agree with Gene that some of the federal rules for disposition go a bit > overboard. Finding the proper museum to house a particular suite of > fossils > found on public lands may prove to be a challenge. I understand the > intent, > but the execution is not practical in all instances. > > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Mar 19 19:03:10 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Mar 19 18:53:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions References: Message-ID: <441E191E.3B15@Tomaszewski.net> It is my understanding that UPS does not ship to a PO Box, APO, FPO, or PMB address. Kreigh Jennifer Isham wrote: > > Does anyone know if UPS ships to "PMB" (private mailbox) addresses? I have > a lamp I need to ship to someone and they sent me a PMB address that has the > PMB number and the street address of where the PMB company is. I'm assuming > the PMB is either the person's home or one of these commercial places that > has mailboxes you can rent. I asked the person as well and am waiting to > hear back but wanted to know if anyone on the list has had experience with > shipping to these kinds of addresses. An off-topic question, I know, but > good to know as well in case I start wanting to send stones and rocks > through the mail to this, and other people perhaps as well. > > thanks! > > jennifer From tfa at brickengraver.com Sun Mar 19 19:17:00 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Sun Mar 19 19:16:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] water color--how to treat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c64bcc$c0f4ad30$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Much of the surface water in Eastern North Carolina is "tea colored" like BK said. For example the Scuppernong River, Alligator River and much of the Albemarle Sound area is colored by the stain from cypress trees, leaves, etc. Some is pristine and makes for some darn good fishing. If it is bacteria free, it is perfectly safe, but the problem comes when it is used as a municipal water source. Chlorine absolutely has to be added to any water for human consumption --especially if it is going to be piped into your house. The reaction of chlorine with the organic material produces THM's or trihalomethanes. Normal traditional treatment of such water does not get rid of the organic matter (TOC) or total organic carbon. Since THM's have been found to perhaps cause cancer, the EPA has instituted very stringent limits on them in water and many plants that use such water have really had to scramble and change their treatment method. The best method, although pretty darn expensive is RO or Reverse Osmosis whereby the water is pumped under considerable pressure through a membrane filter, that essentially filters at the molecular level. These are the kinds of water plants that are also necessary to turn brackish water into potable water. The beauty is that the water is essentially "pure", the disadvantage is the costs of the filters and the energy for the pumps--currently probably at least four times the cost of normal treatment. Once they get clogged, one has to backwash them using of course clean water, and the resultant backwash water has then got to be disposed of. Some home units now use this form of treatment but require vigilance to make sure the filters are cleaned and replaced when necessary. Once the water is run through a RO plant, it is then chlorinated and sent to the system. Since there is essentially no organic or mineral matter such as iron or manganese to be oxidized, the amount of chlorine dosage is kept to a minimum--just enough to prevent re-introduction of bacteria and viruses in the distribution system. So when you read your CCR or consumer confidence report, on your water system this July--everyone in USA on a community water system is mandated by law to receive one,--maybe you will understand what THM's are. Short primer on water treatment. But remember it is the bacteria and viruses that kill you immediately. And that is what kills millions of people a year. I was at a conference one time and the speaker was a big dude from the EPA whose job was trying to help "third world countries" to save their people by creating safe water supplies. The simple addition of a little Clorox was really all that needed to be done. The leader of the country had read about the "evils" of chlorinated water and refused to use it. It could have saved thousands of lives--as it has done everywhere it has been introduced. But he was worried about the cancer problems. Even after explaining that the chances of getting cancer from chlorinated water are one in a million from high levels of THM's , and the chances of dying of waterborne diseases are multiple orders of magnitude higher, he still could not understand and refused. Go figure. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J > Bryan Kramer > Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 8:07 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] water color > > The water in north and central Florida is the same. The cause > is leached material from leaves and is called Humic and > Fulvic acids (which is probably more than you wanted to > know.). I recall a friend's wife, who was from New York IIRC, > and she refused to go swimming in the dirty brown water, even > tho it is actually very clean water. I guess it must have > reminded her of the East River, the color in that comes from > other sources of browness...heh > > Some tropical fish actually do better in the brown water, > Neon Tetras for one, since it matches their native Orinoco water. > > BK > > On 3/17/06, Glenn Wimpee wrote: > > > > We call it "tea colored water" due to the leaching of leaf > materials > > in the ponds and many streams in this area. > > > > > > > > Glenn > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Mar 19 19:34:51 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Mar 19 19:25:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Silver question References: <003d01c64b93$8ab39b20$6600a8c0@davehxbu4rrruh> Message-ID: <441E2087.1564@Tomaszewski.net> Dave West wrote: > > Can anyone tell me what a "silver bud" is? I am thinking it is either a nugget or wire in a tight formation. I know I should know this but the connection between my memory cells seems to have blown a fuse. Thanks in advance. > DaveW Dave, I have seen the term used (but not often) for a tight 'clump' of silver, usually a tight tangle of wire, that is shaped somewhat like a (rose) flower bud that is just beginning to open. Kreigh From pjmodreski at att.net Sun Mar 19 20:00:25 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sun Mar 19 20:00:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions Message-ID: <032020060400.26828.441E28D70004144F000068CC216124364607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Carol, Lots of nice tourmalines. You must for sure be "the Tourmaline Queen"! A lot of papers have been written on tourmaline crystal growth. I know I've read some that try to give some insight into why color-zoning happens; how the metals that are being incorporated into the other minerals forming as a pegmatite crystallizes, leave more or less of them available to go into the tourmaline at different stages. And I believe that the piezoelectric properties of tourmaline do, indeed, play a role in attracting certain ions to either end of the crystal, helping to result in color zoning between the two ends. And, the other part of the explanation would be, that since generally Fe causes the green color, and Mn the pink, if there is a time in the crystallization history when one of these elements has been depleted, but the other has not yet begun to build up to the point where a lot of it is being incorporated in the growing tourmaline, then there will be an intermediate zone, representing a certain time interval, when there was neither very much Fe or Mn, and the zone will be colorless. Looking at the photos of your crystals (and a number of other photos I have of CA and other tourmalines), I was trying to decide (without making the wrong interpretation), which end was the first-grown "base", and which was the last-grown "termination", the pink or the green--i.e., which came first. I'm not sure I can tell; perhaps you can. Or, if the crystals are doubly terminated--then both the pink and the green ends may have grown at the same time. You may know what's correct here, from having examined more crystals, more carefully. Pete -------------- Original message from "Carol J. Bova" : -------------- > Some new questions: I can see where some pink crystals could lose all > color when exposed to extreme heat, but what would account for > colorless zones between other colors? (Some are tinted slightly, but > some are water clear. See pic links below.) > > Would tourmaline's piezoelectricity have any impact on coloration? > > Carol > Mathews, VA > > tricolor xtls- colorless centers > http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/tric1.jpg > > enlargement 18x6mm xtl and cross-section with colorless centers > http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/triclg.jpg > > faceted slice of watermelon tourmaline > http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/watermelon1.jpg > > close up faceted watermelon slice > http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/watermelon2.jpg > > faceted watermelon slice from above > http://www.bovagems.com/gfx/gems/watermelon3.jpg > > > On Saturday, March 18, 2006, at 04:48 PM, Ted Kowalski wrote: > > > All: > > This does not contradict or challenge Pete's email in any way. It's > > just > > that his email is the one that made me get off my butt and root > > through my > > Himalaya stuff, (after I found the stuff that is). > > > > Please excuse the pictures, I took them rather quickly and yes, my > > fingers > > are in the way. http://www.wovengems.com/himalaya_files/Tourmaline.htm > > > > When I did my Himalaya dig two years ago I found several pieces of > > Tourmaline with colorless or nearly colorless growth portions. I tend > > to > > keep anything remotely crystalline so now I'll have to go through my > > Himalaya quartz looking for small overlooked clear tourmaline. > > > > The piece pictured is the one that has the thickest colorless > > tourmaline. I > > apologize for the horrible photos, I have candled this one extensively > > trying to get light through the dark center and marveling at the > > dramatic > > color change. I have another fairly large fragment, but it came from a > > very > > faint pink core tourmaline. Without a dark field light box it is hard > > to see > > the colorless section. > > Ted Kowalski > > Fredericksburg, VA US > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/enriched > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dwest122 at comcast.net Sun Mar 19 20:36:39 2006 From: dwest122 at comcast.net (Dave West) Date: Sun Mar 19 20:36:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Silver question References: <003d01c64b93$8ab39b20$6600a8c0@davehxbu4rrruh> <441E2087.1564@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <008c01c64bd7$e1b64af0$6700a8c0@CPQ28298264587> Thanks, Kreigh. I have been digging since I posted this question and have decided it had to be as you say. DaveW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Silver question > Dave, > > I have seen the term used (but not often) for a tight 'clump' of silver, > usually a tight tangle of wire, that is shaped somewhat like a (rose) > flower bud that is just beginning to open. > > Kreigh From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Mar 19 21:50:24 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Mar 19 21:40:18 2006 Subject: transparent alumina (and preserving specimens affected by the air) {was: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions} References: <000001c64ad5$a9239a10$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> <441CC8F0.191E@Tomaszewski.net> <004a01c64b03$cda97de0$0400a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <441E4039.465B@Tomaszewski.net> John Siebel wrote: > > > Will you settle for transparent alumina? > > That's very cool Kreigh. Would transparent alumina be considerably lighter > in weight than silica glass? > > John John (and List), The Air Force is reported to be replacing silica glass on aircraft with the lighter alumina glass (that is also more protective). I first learned about alumina glass from a friend who pointed me to a link at af.mil (it no longer works -- you may be able to find it cached at google). I had to google the topic to find the source reference from the af.mil posting I remembered, about the original research, before I could post -- but I knew what I was looking for. I would love to be able to coat any of my specimens that are at risk of atmospheric destruction from humidity, or air components such as oxygen, with a thin layer of alumina glass; a transparent coating should not make that much difference on most minerals that decompose on exposure to air (and untreated examples will probably remain available). Good specimens of Trona, Marcasite, Realgar (light is also a factor -- would an alumina coating work?), Bornite, and Epsomite (to name just a few that came to mind), that would last forever, in any atmospheric conditions, after treatment, would certainly enhance any collection. Can you think of other minerals that are affected by atmosphere, or humidity, that could be protected? Do you think it would also preserve light affected minerals like proustite? Kreigh From edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 20 04:44:42 2006 From: edwardjwagner at bellsouth.net (edwardjwagner@bellsouth.net) Date: Mon Mar 20 04:44:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline Message-ID: <20060320124442.HYVN7964.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Hi All. I think the question of color in T. is being begged, in the since that we need to go back to Pegamtite Formation 101. The gem forming materials are concentrated in the last solutions, or the late forming stages. (You goelogists can correct my oversimplifications.) The metallic ions impart the color to the crystals, according to what is being accecpted by the partially formed substance. In Tourmaline, we have a VERY complicated Borosilicate, with spaces for many different types of electrons/ions to become part of the formula. in deifferent valences and concentrations. For example, schorl is black due to the concentration of Iron ions within the borosilicate formula. When there is less iron, the color turns green. However, under high magnification, one can see clear areas in the crystals, of a clear to grey tourmaline with black spotsw, turn into opaque jet black schorl in 1 cm. along the cryltal length. At Ray Mine, some of the researchers from UNC-Asheville had labelled some of the green tourmaline "Olenite". After further analysis, it turned out NOT to be Olenite (which is pink), but actually green elbaite. The difference between the black and the green was the concentrations of iron. That being said, in the process of formation, the color change from Green to Clear to P in the same crystal probably has to do with the valences if Fe and Mn, in solution. Since Manganese can have a valence from one to seven (that means that it has up to 7 electrons, available to combine with other elements), it can and does beat iron to the punch (Fe +2 or +3), depending on the acceptability of the specific crystal.The clear area may be an electronic DMZ, where the overlapping influences just countered each other, or the material ran out.Anyway, there it is. In dealing with Manganese materials, and my specific experience has been with Mangan-Apatite, the soft CaCl(PO)2, when freshly exposed, the crystal can be bright green, lavender, pink, or a zoned combination of all three colors. When exposed to daylight, if fades to a grey-green, right before your very eyes! I also had located a one inch pink crystal, of which I was very proud, set it aside on my work table to deal with cleaning up some beryl, and the heat of the incandescent lamp turned it to grey within 45 minutes. So, heat does effect anything with manganese within it. If you have pink Spodumene, store it wrapped or in a light proof container, because upon long exposure to daylight or heat, it WILL fade to grey. (Think of that next time you pay $60 per gram for Kuntzite at a gem show!) I'm sure the group will have comments and corrections on my little essay here. EJW From rocknate at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 06:32:56 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Mon Mar 20 06:32:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grant, The following link gives a lot of basic data on elbaite (a lithium rich variety of tourmaline). http://webmineral.com/data/Elbaite.shtml Of particular interest is a rotating model of a tourmaline crystal. If you double click on the model you can stop the rotation. Then click and drag the top of the crystal down towards the center and you will see the classic "rounded triangular" shape of the crystal. Kunzite is gem spodumene and you can find its physical property data at http://webmineral.com/data/Spodumene.shtml As you will see elbaite is a little harder but not by much and the density ranges overlap. One of the best field ID clues for tourmaline is the striations (parallel lines on crystal surfaces) that often are present on tourmaline crystals. I've never field collected kunzite but the spodumene crystals I've found usually are lath-like and I would guess that the CA kunzite crystals most often occur in that form. Others more familiar with the area may be able to give you better guidance. best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 3/19/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > Hi Nate, > > That's interesting about the spodumene. I just bought a bag of mud > from the Himalaya Mine while I was at the Turlock Rock and Gem show > last weekend. I found several large, translucent, pink pieces in it. > They are very easy to spot because of the bright color. On a postage > scale they weigh about 1 1/2 ounces. > > I checked for pleochroism and because of that I decided they were > kunzite. They seemed to be darker when I looked through the end of the > crystal and lighter viewed from the side. However, the two largest > pieces are definitely triangular. > > Does tourmaline show pleochroism? What would I look for to see the > "classic trigonal cross section" you mentioned? Are there any easy > ways for a beginner to tell the difference between tourmaline and > kunzite? > > There were several other very interesting things in that mud, > including several totally clear crystals. The largest of those is > almost as big as a small egg. I think it's clear quartz. And there are > two big black pieces that do not look triangular. They have lines > along the length of them, which gives them a fiberous > appearence.Together they weigh about 4 ounces. There are also several > white pieces with smal black spots. > > I'm a rockhound and I'm just learning about these things that come > from holes in the ground. Last summer I was at Chris Rose's Spectrum > Sunstone Mine with my grandson, but that's pit mining, not mine > shafts. Chris was not there but my grandson had a great time digging > sunstones. Jessica spent a lot of time showing him how to screen the > free pile at the Spectrum -- and he was well rewarded with a hand full > of clear sunstones and a little bit of color. > > When I saw the High Desert booth at Turlock I bought the bag of mud > from the Himalaya Mine. Again, Chris was not there but a smililing > Jessaca was busy answering questions. Between the questions we > exchanged stories about breaking down or getting stuck in the mud on > the dirt roads around Adel, OR.and Surprise Valley, CA. I think I got > a good return on my money, even if I don't know what everything is > yet. > > Grant > > > On 3/19/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > Grant, > > > > The pink crystal I found is definitely tourmaline as it has the classic > > trigonal cross section with good faces on all three sides. Actually, > unlike > > several of the other mines in the Pala district the mines in the > Himalaya > > dike system have little or no spodumene and hence no kunzite. > > > > Nate > > > > On 3/18/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > > > I have the book, "Exploring And Mining Gems & Gold In The West" by > > > Fred Rynerson. Rynerson was one of the miners and prospectors who > > > developed the Pala tourmaline mining district, including the Himalay > > > Mine, in San Deigo County. The book is paperback, copyright 1967. > > > > > > If anybody wants to buy it contact me at roughrock@gmail.com > > > > > > Nathan, the pink crystal could also be kuntzsite. I know I spelled it > > > wrong ;-)) > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > On 3/17/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > > > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in > San > > > Diego > > > > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In > > > addition > > > > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to > play > > > in > > > > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was > > > lucky > > > > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best > > > find of > > > > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink > > > tourmaline > > > > crystal. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > List Home Page: > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 20 06:41:29 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 20 06:41:34 2006 Subject: transparent alumina (and preserving specimens affected by the air) {was: Re: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions} Message-ID: <032020061441.9920.441EBF18000879A5000026C0216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> That was interesting, Kreigh, I'd never heard of alumina glass before. I google'd and quickly found a website describing it, how its made, and with a picture of alumina glass discs. It sounds, though, that it is translucent rather than fully transparent, and I'm guessing, still quite expensive, and probably not yet fabricated into large items. The translucent disks it showed were only 1 cm in diameter. It sounds like they're still rather a long way from being able to coat your specimens with glassy alumina, unless perhaps the specimens can take intense compression and being heated to I'm guessing a thousand degrees or so. Still, nice that your'e thinking of good ideas... Pete -------------- Original message from Kreigh Tomaszewski : -------------- > John Siebel wrote: > > > > > Will you settle for transparent alumina? > > > > That's very cool Kreigh. Would transparent alumina be considerably lighter > > in weight than silica glass? > > > > John > > John (and List), > > The Air Force is reported to be replacing silica glass on aircraft with > the lighter alumina glass (that is also more protective). I first > learned about alumina glass from a friend who pointed me to a link at > af.mil (it no longer works -- you may be able to find it cached at > google). > > I had to google the topic to find the source reference from the af.mil > posting I remembered, about the original research, before I could post > -- but I knew what I was looking for. > > I would love to be able to coat any of my specimens that are at risk of > atmospheric destruction from humidity, or air components such as oxygen, > with a thin layer of alumina glass; a transparent coating should not > make that much difference on most minerals that decompose on exposure to > air (and untreated examples will probably remain available). > > Good specimens of Trona, Marcasite, Realgar (light is also a factor -- > would an alumina coating work?), Bornite, and Epsomite (to name just a > few that came to mind), that would last forever, in any atmospheric > conditions, after treatment, would certainly enhance any collection. > > Can you think of other minerals that are affected by atmosphere, or > humidity, that could be protected? > > Do you think it would also preserve light affected minerals like > proustite? > > Kreigh > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jr50wv at yahoo.com Mon Mar 20 07:39:53 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Mon Mar 20 07:39:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered Message-ID: <20060320153953.89555.qmail@web34614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Grant: Buying the "sack of mud" from the mine was a good move, I'd be interested in seeing some of that material myself. I expect the black mineral with striations is schorl tourmaline...most schorl I've seen had striations along the length of the crystal. I expect the white mineral with black spots is a feldspar with schorl crystals, albite or cleavelandite, tho I'd have trouble telling which. The clear material is probably quartz, there's a lot of qz in most pegmatites. I bet the pink material is tourmaline after all. The color change in kunzite is irrespective of the thickness of the material, that is to say, a cube or sphere of kunzite will have different colors depending upon the direction you are looking through the mineral. Tourmaline will look darker if there's more mineral in one direction (longwise) than the other direction (crosswise), but a cube or sphere would be the same color all around.. I work with a guy who's last name is Kunz, and plan to give him a nice kunzite crystal as soon as I can... I was surprised he knew about kunzite, since he's a city guy not interested in rocks and all...I think the famous George Kunz was a great great uncle of his. JR in WV --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 20 09:01:16 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 20 09:01:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered Message-ID: <032020061701.21554.441EDFDC0008CDD800005432216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> A small correction, J.R. (probably someone else will write & say this too), but tourmaline is indeed dichroic, it absorbs light much more strongly when looking down the "c" axis (down the length of the crystal) than sideways. So a cube or sphere would definitely appear darker in one direction. I've never seen a piece of tourmaline cut exactly this way to show this, but one can see it in short broken prism sections that are approximately as wide as long. An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue in one direction and just pale tan in another, and the third direction is also slightly different. (Now, the exact extent of this dichroic property of tourmaline probably depends on the nature of the metal causing the color, so it's quite likely that some colors of tourmaline may show the dichroism more or less strongly than others. So I can't absolutely vouch that all pale pink tourmalines would show obvious dichroism; but I think they all should. It may not be quite as strong as the pleochroism of kunzite.) Pete -------------- Original message from "J. R. Hodel" : -------------- > Hi Grant: > > Buying the "sack of mud" from the mine was a good move, I'd be interested in > seeing some of that material myself. > > I expect the black mineral with striations is schorl tourmaline...most schorl > I've seen had striations along the length of the crystal. I expect the white > mineral with black spots is a feldspar with schorl crystals, albite or > cleavelandite, tho I'd have trouble telling which. > > The clear material is probably quartz, there's a lot of qz in most pegmatites. > > I bet the pink material is tourmaline after all. The color change in kunzite is > irrespective of the thickness of the material, that is to say, a cube or sphere > of kunzite will have different colors depending upon the direction you are > looking through the mineral. Tourmaline will look darker if there's more > mineral in one direction (longwise) than the other direction (crosswise), but a > cube or sphere would be the same color all around.. > > I work with a guy who's last name is Kunz, and plan to give him a nice kunzite > crystal as soon as I can... I was surprised he knew about kunzite, since he's a > city guy not interested in rocks and all...I think the famous George Kunz was a > great great uncle of his. > > JR in WV > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Mar 20 10:15:37 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Mar 20 10:15:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: <032020061701.21554.441EDFDC0008CDD800005432216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: Pete wrote: >An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished >cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the >mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue >in one direction and just pale tan in another, >and the third> direction is also slightly different. I have seen a cut gemmy iolite in the collection of a friend (G?rard Barmarin, VP of the Fluorescent Mineral Society, European branch) that gave me quite a thrill. Dark violet blue in one direction, glass clear and colorless in another direction and a deep saturated yellow in a third direction. If I'm well informed, this behavior in polarized light was already used by the Vikings in their travels. The sky is often too cloudy to navigate by the sun in the northern seas. However, the light of the sky is slightly more polarized in the direction of the sun. Enough so, obviously, to use cordierite crystals for navigation. When properly oriented the crystal would appear darker when the line of sight is pointed to the sun. Axel From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Mon Mar 20 12:29:49 2006 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Mon Mar 20 12:29:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered References: <032020061701.21554.441EDFDC0008CDD800005432216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <000d01c64c5d$099cfa70$ee804c0c@LarryRush> The pleochroism of cordierite is strong enough that (supposedly) the Vikings used pieces of it (from Norway?) to find the location of the sun while sailing on overcast days. It's strongest variance from light to dark would allow them to find the position of the sun, and knowing the time of day, could conceivably find their position. Sounds a bit far-fetched to me, I have tried it with gemmy pieces from Connecticut, and it was difficult, regardless of the axis orientation. Larry Rush =================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered >A small correction, J.R. (probably someone else will write & say this too), >but tourmaline is indeed dichroic, it absorbs light much more strongly when >looking down the "c" axis (down the length of the crystal) than sideways. >So a cube or sphere would definitely appear darker in one direction. I've >never seen a piece of tourmaline cut exactly this way to show this, but one >can see it in short broken prism sections that are approximately as wide as >long. > > An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished cube of cordierite > (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the mineral's pleochroism very > strongly, it looks dark blue in one direction and just pale tan in > another, and the third direction is also slightly different. > > (Now, the exact extent of this dichroic property of tourmaline probably > depends on the nature of the metal causing the color, so it's quite likely > that some colors of tourmaline may show the dichroism more or less > strongly than others. So I can't absolutely vouch that all pale pink > tourmalines would show obvious dichroism; but I think they all should. It > may not be quite as strong as the pleochroism of kunzite.) > > Pete > > -------------- Original message from "J. R. Hodel" > : -------------- > > >> Hi Grant: >> >> Buying the "sack of mud" from the mine was a good move, I'd be interested >> in >> seeing some of that material myself. >> >> I expect the black mineral with striations is schorl tourmaline...most >> schorl >> I've seen had striations along the length of the crystal. I expect the >> white >> mineral with black spots is a feldspar with schorl crystals, albite or >> cleavelandite, tho I'd have trouble telling which. >> >> The clear material is probably quartz, there's a lot of qz in most >> pegmatites. >> >> I bet the pink material is tourmaline after all. The color change in >> kunzite is >> irrespective of the thickness of the material, that is to say, a cube or >> sphere >> of kunzite will have different colors depending upon the direction you >> are >> looking through the mineral. Tourmaline will look darker if there's more >> mineral in one direction (longwise) than the other direction (crosswise), >> but a >> cube or sphere would be the same color all around.. >> >> I work with a guy who's last name is Kunz, and plan to give him a nice >> kunzite >> crystal as soon as I can... I was surprised he knew about kunzite, since >> he's a >> city guy not interested in rocks and all...I think the famous George Kunz >> was a >> great great uncle of his. >> >> JR in WV >> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 20 13:27:30 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 20 13:27:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered Message-ID: <032020062127.1016.441F1E40000C88B3000003F8216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> I think the use or utility of the "Viking sunstone" has been debated many times and places, on the 'net and in print, and I even think some years ago, there may have been a discussion online here about it. I read this in one item posted on the internet: "Text from page 92 of SKY & Telescope May 1997 by Bradley Schaefer ...seen making it unclear what advantage the polarizer offers those lost at sea. Under a cloudy or even hazy sky (where no blue is apparent), the cordierite fails completely since the light has been so thoroughly scattered that all polarization is lost. With partially cloudy or twilight conditions the cordierite might work, yet the Sun's position is more easily apparent from the sky brightness distribution. So there are no conditions known under which a cordierite sunstone could provide any extra utility for navigation. " That's been my impression from what I've read; it's an interesting idea, but I don't think that there's any real evidence that Vikings actually used this, or that it would really be a technique that would work in practicality. Pete -------------- Original message from "Lawrence Rush" : -------------- > The pleochroism of cordierite is strong enough that (supposedly) the Vikings > used pieces of it (from Norway?) > to find the location of the sun while sailing on overcast days. > It's strongest variance from light to dark would allow them to find the > position of the sun, and knowing the time of day, could conceivably find > their position. Sounds a bit far-fetched to me, I have tried it with gemmy > pieces from Connecticut, > and it was difficult, regardless of the axis orientation. > > Larry Rush > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Mon Mar 20 13:46:46 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Mon Mar 20 13:46:49 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: <032020061701.21554.441EDFDC0008CDD800005432216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <002a01c64c67$c1c60380$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Pete: An additional note; When cutting green tourmaline the orientation is often used to either strengthen the green color or to lighten it in the finished stone depending on the darkness of the green. Cut pink (and blue) tourmalines are usually "C" axis oriented to strengthen the color. Grant: If you still have some of your Himalaya mud remnants, I forgot to add that there may be pieces of mica with lavender color particularly along the edges. Or there could be some mica clumps that look like clumps of lavender tinted rubble. If so, the lavender edges and the small clumps are lepidolite, a lithium variety of mica. http://www.mindat.org/show.php?id=2380. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of pjmodreski@att.net Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 12:01 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered A small correction, J.R. (probably someone else will write & say this too), but tourmaline is indeed dichroic, it absorbs light much more strongly when looking down the "c" axis (down the length of the crystal) than sideways. So a cube or sphere would definitely appear darker in one direction. I've never seen a piece of tourmaline cut exactly this way to show this, but one can see it in short broken prism sections that are approximately as wide as long. An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue in one direction and just pale tan in another, and the third direction is also slightly different. (Now, the exact extent of this dichroic property of tourmaline probably depends on the nature of the metal causing the color, so it's quite likely that some colors of tourmaline may show the dichroism more or less strongly than others. So I can't absolutely vouch that all pale pink tourmalines would show obvious dichroism; but I think they all should. It may not be quite as strong as the pleochroism of kunzite.) Pete -------------- Original message from "J. R. Hodel" : -------------- > Hi Grant: > > Buying the "sack of mud" from the mine was a good move, I'd be interested in > seeing some of that material myself. > > I expect the black mineral with striations is schorl tourmaline...most schorl > I've seen had striations along the length of the crystal. I expect the white > mineral with black spots is a feldspar with schorl crystals, albite or > cleavelandite, tho I'd have trouble telling which. > > The clear material is probably quartz, there's a lot of qz in most pegmatites. > > I bet the pink material is tourmaline after all. The color change in kunzite is > irrespective of the thickness of the material, that is to say, a cube or sphere > of kunzite will have different colors depending upon the direction you are > looking through the mineral. Tourmaline will look darker if there's more > mineral in one direction (longwise) than the other direction (crosswise), but a > cube or sphere would be the same color all around.. > > I work with a guy who's last name is Kunz, and plan to give him a nice kunzite > crystal as soon as I can... I was surprised he knew about kunzite, since he's a > city guy not interested in rocks and all...I think the famous George Kunz was a > great great uncle of his. > > JR in WV > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Mon Mar 20 14:22:22 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Mon Mar 20 14:22:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Cool bits of info on pleochroism and Norse navigation! Studies of light travel and defraction in various materials has led to great revolutionary advances in communication, i.e. fiber optic cable with mineral based laser transmitters and recievers. Beam us all up Scotty! Thanks guys! Glenn Pete wrote: An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue in one direction and just pale tan in another, and the third direction is also slightly different. Axel wrote: I have seen a cut gemmy iolite in the collection of a friend (Gérard Barmarin, VP of the Fluorescent Mineral Society, European branch) that gave me quite a thrill. Dark violet blue in one direction, glass clear and colorless in another direction and a deep saturated yellow in a third direction. If I'm well informed, this behavior in polarized light was already used by the Vikings in their travels. The sky is often too cloudy to navigate by the sun in the northern seas. However, the light of the sky is slightly more polarized in the direction of the sun. Enough so, obviously, to use cordierite crystals for navigation. When properly oriented the crystal would appear darker when the line of sight is pointed to the sun. ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Mar 20 15:11:57 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Mar 20 15:11:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: <000d01c64c5d$099cfa70$ee804c0c@LarryRush> Message-ID: True, probably you're right. Playing the devils advocate, however, I would have to point out that Connecticut sound a lot further south than the northern ice sea. The lower the sun is in the sky, the stronger the polarization of the light would be in that direction. There is some pretty darn fine cordierite found in Norway I'm told (I'd have to check that source ;-))). My son has a small iolite in is collection. Maybe March is too late in the season at our latitude but I'll give it a try when I see a chance. I used to have a red beard so I'm as close to a Viking as it gets on my street... Axel -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]Namens Lawrence Rush Verzonden: maandag 20 maart 2006 21:30 Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered The pleochroism of cordierite is strong enough that (supposedly) the Vikings used pieces of it (from Norway?) to find the location of the sun while sailing on overcast days. It's strongest variance from light to dark would allow them to find the position of the sun, and knowing the time of day, could conceivably find their position. Sounds a bit far-fetched to me, I have tried it with gemmy pieces from Connecticut, and it was difficult, regardless of the axis orientation. Larry Rush =================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered >A small correction, J.R. (probably someone else will write & say this too), >but tourmaline is indeed dichroic, it absorbs light much more strongly when >looking down the "c" axis (down the length of the crystal) than sideways. >So a cube or sphere would definitely appear darker in one direction. I've >never seen a piece of tourmaline cut exactly this way to show this, but one >can see it in short broken prism sections that are approximately as wide as >long. > > An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished cube of cordierite > (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the mineral's pleochroism very > strongly, it looks dark blue in one direction and just pale tan in > another, and the third direction is also slightly different. > > (Now, the exact extent of this dichroic property of tourmaline probably > depends on the nature of the metal causing the color, so it's quite likely > that some colors of tourmaline may show the dichroism more or less > strongly than others. So I can't absolutely vouch that all pale pink > tourmalines would show obvious dichroism; but I think they all should. It > may not be quite as strong as the pleochroism of kunzite.) > > Pete > > -------------- Original message from "J. R. Hodel" > : -------------- > > >> Hi Grant: >> >> Buying the "sack of mud" from the mine was a good move, I'd be interested >> in >> seeing some of that material myself. >> >> I expect the black mineral with striations is schorl tourmaline...most >> schorl >> I've seen had striations along the length of the crystal. I expect the >> white >> mineral with black spots is a feldspar with schorl crystals, albite or >> cleavelandite, tho I'd have trouble telling which. >> >> The clear material is probably quartz, there's a lot of qz in most >> pegmatites. >> >> I bet the pink material is tourmaline after all. The color change in >> kunzite is >> irrespective of the thickness of the material, that is to say, a cube or >> sphere >> of kunzite will have different colors depending upon the direction you >> are >> looking through the mineral. Tourmaline will look darker if there's more >> mineral in one direction (longwise) than the other direction (crosswise), >> but a >> cube or sphere would be the same color all around.. >> >> I work with a guy who's last name is Kunz, and plan to give him a nice >> kunzite >> crystal as soon as I can... I was surprised he knew about kunzite, since >> he's a >> city guy not interested in rocks and all...I think the famous George Kunz >> was a >> great great uncle of his. >> >> JR in WV >> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Mar 20 15:16:39 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Mar 20 15:16:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Beam us all up Scotty! OK, Glenn, a real Viking wouldn't be named Scotty. Furthermore, if you asked one to "beam you up" he would probably use a sword rather than a matter transporter to that end. Beam you up to the Walhalla, get it? Walhallahahahahaha.... ;-))) Cheers Axel Pete wrote: An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue in one direction and just pale tan in another, and the third direction is also slightly different. Axel wrote: I have seen a cut gemmy iolite in the collection of a friend (G?rard Barmarin, VP of the Fluorescent Mineral Society, European branch) that gave me quite a thrill. Dark violet blue in one direction, glass clear and colorless in another direction and a deep saturated yellow in a third direction. If I'm well informed, this behavior in polarized light was already used by the Vikings in their travels. The sky is often too cloudy to navigate by the sun in the northern seas. However, the light of the sky is slightly more polarized in the direction of the sun. Enough so, obviously, to use cordierite crystals for navigation. When properly oriented the crystal would appear darker when the line of sight is pointed to the sun. ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From roughrock at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 19:06:28 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Mon Mar 20 19:06:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Color in Tourmaline: a reference and some questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. That animated crystal is a real nice effect. I'll have to spend some time on that site, figuring out what the numbers on all those crystal face are about. Right now I'n trying to figure out what all the numbers I'm sending to the IRS are about. Grant On 3/20/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > Grant, > > The following link gives a lot of basic data on elbaite (a lithium rich > variety of tourmaline). > http://webmineral.com/data/Elbaite.shtml > Of particular interest is a rotating model of a tourmaline crystal. If you > double click on the model you can stop the rotation. Then click and drag > the top of the crystal down towards the center and you will see the classic > "rounded triangular" shape of the crystal. > > Kunzite is gem spodumene and you can find its physical property data at > http://webmineral.com/data/Spodumene.shtml > As you will see elbaite is a little harder but not by much and the density > ranges overlap. One of the best field ID clues for tourmaline is the > striations (parallel lines on crystal surfaces) that often are present on > tourmaline crystals. I've never field collected kunzite but the spodumene > crystals I've found usually are lath-like and I would guess that the CA > kunzite crystals most often occur in that form. Others more familiar with > the area may be able to give you better guidance. > > best regards, > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > > On 3/19/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > Hi Nate, > > > > That's interesting about the spodumene. I just bought a bag of mud > > from the Himalaya Mine while I was at the Turlock Rock and Gem show > > last weekend. I found several large, translucent, pink pieces in it. > > They are very easy to spot because of the bright color. On a postage > > scale they weigh about 1 1/2 ounces. > > > > I checked for pleochroism and because of that I decided they were > > kunzite. They seemed to be darker when I looked through the end of the > > crystal and lighter viewed from the side. However, the two largest > > pieces are definitely triangular. > > > > Does tourmaline show pleochroism? What would I look for to see the > > "classic trigonal cross section" you mentioned? Are there any easy > > ways for a beginner to tell the difference between tourmaline and > > kunzite? > > > > There were several other very interesting things in that mud, > > including several totally clear crystals. The largest of those is > > almost as big as a small egg. I think it's clear quartz. And there are > > two big black pieces that do not look triangular. They have lines > > along the length of them, which gives them a fiberous > > appearence.Together they weigh about 4 ounces. There are also several > > white pieces with smal black spots. > > > > I'm a rockhound and I'm just learning about these things that come > > from holes in the ground. Last summer I was at Chris Rose's Spectrum > > Sunstone Mine with my grandson, but that's pit mining, not mine > > shafts. Chris was not there but my grandson had a great time digging > > sunstones. Jessica spent a lot of time showing him how to screen the > > free pile at the Spectrum -- and he was well rewarded with a hand full > > of clear sunstones and a little bit of color. > > > > When I saw the High Desert booth at Turlock I bought the bag of mud > > from the Himalaya Mine. Again, Chris was not there but a smililing > > Jessaca was busy answering questions. Between the questions we > > exchanged stories about breaking down or getting stuck in the mud on > > the dirt roads around Adel, OR.and Surprise Valley, CA. I think I got > > a good return on my money, even if I don't know what everything is > > yet. > > > > Grant > > > > > > On 3/19/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > > Grant, > > > > > > The pink crystal I found is definitely tourmaline as it has the classic > > > trigonal cross section with good faces on all three sides. Actually, > > unlike > > > several of the other mines in the Pala district the mines in the > > Himalaya > > > dike system have little or no spodumene and hence no kunzite. > > > > > > Nate > > > > > > On 3/18/06, Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > > > > > I have the book, "Exploring And Mining Gems & Gold In The West" by > > > > Fred Rynerson. Rynerson was one of the miners and prospectors who > > > > developed the Pala tourmaline mining district, including the Himalay > > > > Mine, in San Deigo County. The book is paperback, copyright 1967. > > > > > > > > If anybody wants to buy it contact me at roughrock@gmail.com > > > > > > > > Nathan, the pink crystal could also be kuntzsite. I know I spelled it > > > > wrong ;-)) > > > > > > > > Grant > > > > > > > > On 3/17/06, Nathan Martin wrote: > > > > > I recently had the pleasure of collecting at the Himalaya Mine in > > San > > > > Diego > > > > > Co., CA, USA on one of the fee trips organized by Simon King. In > > > > addition > > > > > to meeting some friendly collectors and enjoying the opportunity to > > play > > > > in > > > > > the dirt in February (not typically possible in New England), I was > > > > lucky > > > > > enough to find pink, green and nearly colorless tourmaline. My best > > > > find of > > > > > the day was a roughly 1/2" long cross section out of a gemmy pink > > > > tourmaline > > > > > crystal. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > > Subscription Services: > > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > > List Home Page: > > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > > multipart/alternative > > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > > text/html > > > --- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > > Subscription Services: > > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > > List Home Page: > > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From roughrock at gmail.com Mon Mar 20 19:32:09 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Mon Mar 20 19:32:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: <002a01c64c67$c1c60380$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <032020061701.21554.441EDFDC0008CDD800005432216028106007059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> <002a01c64c67$c1c60380$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: I didn't find any lepidolite in the mud but I bought a piece when I was at the Spectrum Mine last summer. I don't know if all the bags of mud are as good as the one I bought but I think it was worthwhile, more than worthwhile. I'm never going down 1,500 feet to dig ny own so it was a bargain. One other time I bought some bags of dirt from a sapphire mine in Idaho. I found several small sapphires and considered the bag a bargain, much cheaper than going to Idaho to hunt for them. I can't say very much for the "dynamite boxes full of unsearched emeralds" I bought on Ebay. What I found probably didn't cover the cost of shipping. I knew it was gamble, but I didn't expect everything to come out smelling like diesel. Grant On 20 Mar 2006 13:46:46 -0800, Ted Kowalski wrote: > Pete: > Or there could be some mica clumps that look like clumps of lavender > tinted rubble. If so, the lavender edges and the small clumps are > lepidolite, a lithium variety of mica. > http://www.mindat.org/show.php?id=2380. > > Ted Kowalski > From mp44sturm-rocks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 20 21:09:18 2006 From: mp44sturm-rocks at yahoo.com (Sandra B. Gee) Date: Mon Mar 20 21:09:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions In-Reply-To: <254.85e79b3.314f2a20@aol.com> Message-ID: <20060321050918.48093.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have received my mail at a PMB for the last 10 years or so. UPS does deliver to PMB's. My first PMB was thru a group called Mailboxes, Etc which have now almost all converted to "The UPS Store" which will ship via UPS. The UPS Store also offers private mail box service. To steer this more on topic, the guys at the PMB know me and know to hand me a box cutter when they see me coming thru the front door....They are always interested to see what sort of mineral specimen(s) I've gotten in the mail. From asgardsgc at earthlink.net Mon Mar 20 19:12:02 2006 From: asgardsgc at earthlink.net (Mark Easterbrook) Date: Mon Mar 20 22:08:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered Message-ID: <16510746.1142910722432.JavaMail.root@elwamui-francias.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hey, what a coincidence. I am in Walhalla, South Carolina for work over two weeks. Beam me up, Scotty. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Axel Emmermann >Sent: Mar 20, 2006 6:16 PM >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered > >>Beam us all up Scotty! > >OK, Glenn, a real Viking wouldn't be named Scotty. Furthermore, if you asked >one to "beam you up" he would probably use a sword rather than a matter >transporter to that end. >Beam you up to the Walhalla, get it? Walhallahahahahaha.... ;-))) > >Cheers > >Axel > >Pete wrote: > >An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished >cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the >mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue >in one direction and just pale tan in another, >and the third direction is also slightly different. > > >Axel wrote: > > >I have seen a cut gemmy iolite in the collection of a friend (G?rard >Barmarin, VP of the Fluorescent Mineral Society, European branch) that gave >me quite a thrill. Dark violet blue in one direction, glass clear and >colorless in another direction and a deep saturated yellow in a third >direction. >If I'm well informed, this behavior in polarized light was already used by >the Vikings in their travels. The sky is often too cloudy to navigate by the >sun in the northern seas. However, the light of the sky is slightly more >polarized in the direction of the sun. Enough so, obviously, to use >cordierite crystals for navigation. When properly oriented the crystal would >appear darker when the line of sight is pointed to the sun. > > > > > >------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------ >Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail >------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------ > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >text/html (html body -- converted) >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Bobslgn at aol.com Mon Mar 20 23:30:50 2006 From: Bobslgn at aol.com (Bobslgn@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 20 23:31:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tea Colored Water and Treatment Message-ID: <340.3ecfd0.315105aa@aol.com> Tom I have some alternatives. >but the problem comes when it is used >as a municipal water source. Chlorine absolutely has to be added to any >water for human consumption --especially if it is going to be piped into >your house. The reaction of chlorine with the organic material produces >THM's or trihalomethanes. You are correct that potable water must be treated to destroy or remove viruses, bacteria, and parasitic organisms. For chemical treatment ozone has be approved for use as the primary control and there is some work which has been done with paracetic acid as well. These chemicals are powerful oxidizing agents and will get the job done without producing any harmful halogenated organics or other residues. I believe after ozonation the process calls for floculation and some type of settling and or filtration. I am not sure but I believe this combination might well address and remove the tea color. There are also some locations which are using UF, Ultra Filtration. Not as expensive as RO and it does not remove minerals. However it is very effective on bacteria and organic molecules. Just to keep everyone happy a small amount of chlorine, is added, after all the other treatment, to protect the water from contamination as pumped/shipped to the customer. Oh and they use rocks as part of the water retaining system and clay materials as flocculants. Thanks all, Bob --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Mar 21 01:53:22 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Mar 21 01:53:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: <16510746.1142910722432.JavaMail.root@elwamui-francias.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: How intense... Be nice to the valkyrja now, they have a short temper. Axel -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]Namens Mark Easterbrook Verzonden: dinsdag 21 maart 2006 4:12 Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered Hey, what a coincidence. I am in Walhalla, South Carolina for work over two weeks. Beam me up, Scotty. Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Axel Emmermann >Sent: Mar 20, 2006 6:16 PM >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered > >>Beam us all up Scotty! > >OK, Glenn, a real Viking wouldn't be named Scotty. Furthermore, if you asked >one to "beam you up" he would probably use a sword rather than a matter >transporter to that end. >Beam you up to the Walhalla, get it? Walhallahahahahaha.... ;-))) > >Cheers > >Axel > >Pete wrote: > >An aside, one of my favorite specimens is a polished >cube of cordierite (iolite) that I bought once, it shows the >mineral's pleochroism very strongly, it looks dark blue >in one direction and just pale tan in another, >and the third direction is also slightly different. > > >Axel wrote: > > >I have seen a cut gemmy iolite in the collection of a friend (G?rard >Barmarin, VP of the Fluorescent Mineral Society, European branch) that gave >me quite a thrill. Dark violet blue in one direction, glass clear and >colorless in another direction and a deep saturated yellow in a third >direction. >If I'm well informed, this behavior in polarized light was already used by >the Vikings in their travels. The sky is often too cloudy to navigate by the >sun in the northern seas. However, the light of the sky is slightly more >polarized in the direction of the sun. Enough so, obviously, to use >cordierite crystals for navigation. When properly oriented the crystal would >appear darker when the line of sight is pointed to the sun. > > > > > >------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------ >Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail >------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------ > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >text/html (html body -- converted) >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jr50wv at yahoo.com Tue Mar 21 04:18:29 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Tue Mar 21 04:18:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] UPS shipments Message-ID: <20060321121829.48191.qmail@web34612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Kreigh: UPS recently bought the MailBoxes Plus chain, just as FedEx bought Kinkos. They are happy to deliver to either of these chains. I recently had my brother send me a package of finalcial documents on deadline. They were federal and state (WV and TX) tax forms for my Dad's estate, and they were due pretty soon. He told the accountant (in FL) to FedEx them to Kinkos in downtown Charleston WV, since it would be a couple more days to fedex them to my house and I'm in town most every day for work anyways. Well to make a long story short, Kinkos/FedEx refused delivery from the UPS guys, and I had to meet the Brown Truck on a street corner to take delivery. Last time I ever use FedEx! But the point was that they were happy to deliver there, because they knew where it was. They can't use a PO Box to find a house to deliver to, and the PO won't accept a delivery without postage on it. That's why they don't typically deliver o a PO Box. My address is technically Rural Route 1, Box 123 Tango Road (not my real numbers, just for illustration). For UPS I type this as 123 Tango Road, and they come right out to the house and leave it on the porch. JR --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org Tue Mar 21 04:23:21 2006 From: jennifer at sunriseinstitute.org (jennifer isham) Date: Tue Mar 21 04:22:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] UPS shipments In-Reply-To: <20060321121829.48191.qmail@web34612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just an update on UPS shipping to PMB's. I took the package to Office Depot yesterday. They have a UPS station there. The package shipped without a problem because it had a street address and a PMB, or so I was told. Thanks for everyone's input. Hope my info helps as well. best, jennifer From liz.fodi at utoronto.ca Tue Mar 21 06:02:00 2006 From: liz.fodi at utoronto.ca (liz fodi) Date: Tue Mar 21 05:58:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tourmaline colors and questions (maybe) answered In-Reply-To: <032020062127.1016.441F1E40000C88B3000003F8216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <032020062127.1016.441F1E40000C88B3000003F8216037622307059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <44200758.8080201@utoronto.ca> Ah, yes Technical feasability has been brought into question by recent attempts to use cordierite in the method described. but . . . factual evidence does not make allowance for the "power of crystals". . . in this case the crew's knowledge that the ship's navigator/captain has a magical stone to fall back on when things get tough. After applying all the knowledge he has the captain still needs his crew to believe in him. While not perhaps in itself a particularily useful navigational tool, I can well imagine some nifty confirmation ceremony in which a magical navigation stone used by a charismatic leader ends debate. . . . Some things never change. . . Liz pjmodreski@att.net wrote: >I think the use or utility of the "Viking sunstone" has been debated many times and places, on the 'net and in print, and I even think some years ago, there may have been a discussion online here about it. > >I read this in one item posted on the internet: > >"Text from page 92 of SKY & Telescope May 1997 by Bradley Schaefer >...seen making it unclear what advantage the polarizer offers those lost at sea. Under a cloudy or even hazy sky (where no blue is apparent), the cordierite fails completely since the light has been so thoroughly scattered that all polarization is lost. With partially cloudy or twilight conditions the cordierite might work, yet the Sun's position is more easily apparent from the sky brightness distribution. So there are no conditions known under which a cordierite sunstone could provide any extra utility for navigation. " > >That's been my impression from what I've read; it's an interesting idea, but I don't think that there's any real evidence that Vikings actually used this, or that it would really be a technique that would work in practicality. > >Pete >-------------- Original message from "Lawrence Rush" : -------------- > > > > >>The pleochroism of cordierite is strong enough that (supposedly) the Vikings >>used pieces of it (from Norway?) >>to find the location of the sun while sailing on overcast days. >>It's strongest variance from light to dark would allow them to find the >>position of the sun, and knowing the time of day, could conceivably find >>their position. Sounds a bit far-fetched to me, I have tried it with gemmy >>pieces from Connecticut, >>and it was difficult, regardless of the axis orientation. >> >>Larry Rush >> >> >> > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From totis99 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 21 09:04:37 2006 From: totis99 at yahoo.com (teresa otis) Date: Tue Mar 21 09:04:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off topic questions In-Reply-To: <20060321050918.48093.qmail@web34202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060321170437.78156.qmail@web36702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> We have used a PMB at Mailboxes Etc for years now. When UPS bought the chain they became a UPS store. For some time after the purchase they did go ahead and do FedEx for their customers. A notice was then given to us saying they wouldn't be doing it anymore (this was several years ago). Fedex had their own store (Kinko's). Any fault on not delivering one to the other would lie with the person who took the package not being aware of where deliveries will take place and you should have been told. It is no different than the USPS..they won't accept deliveries from UPS or Fedex for you; they want you to use their service. Teresa O. --- "Sandra B. Gee" wrote: > I have received my mail at a PMB for the last 10 > years > or so. UPS does deliver to PMB's. My first PMB was > thru a group called Mailboxes, Etc which have now > almost all converted to "The UPS Store" which will > ship via UPS. The UPS Store also offers private > mail > box service. > > To steer this more on topic, the guys at the PMB > know > me and know to hand me a box cutter when they see > me > coming thru the front door....They are always > interested to see what sort of mineral specimen(s) > I've gotten in the mail. > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Kenny.Gay at ncmail.net Wed Mar 22 05:39:25 2006 From: Kenny.Gay at ncmail.net (Kenny Gay) Date: Wed Mar 22 05:40:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Club Show Message-ID: <4421538D.5010507@ncmail.net> Just a reminder to all: TAR HEEL GEM AND MINERAL CLUB PRESENTS <> THE 30TH ANNUAL CAPITOL AREA GEM AND MINERAL SHOW <> Kerr Scott Building, NC State Fairgrounds, Blue Ridge Road, Raleigh, North Carolina <> Friday March 24th 5:00pm - 9:00pm Saturday March 25th 10:00am - 7:00pm Sunday March 26th 10:00am - 5:00pm <>FREE PARKING AND FREE ADMISSION Hope to see you there Kenny --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com Wed Mar 22 09:30:25 2006 From: jeannius at jeanniusdesigns.com (Jeanne Rhodes Moen) Date: Wed Mar 22 09:30:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot I came across Message-ID: <442189B1.804@jeanniusdesigns.com> (sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the two that went to you) Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&item=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 Jeanne -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jewelry: www.jeannius.com Family: www.rhodes-moen.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tim at orerockon.com Wed Mar 22 09:53:09 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Mar 22 09:53:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot I came across In-Reply-To: <442189B1.804@jeanniusdesigns.com> References: <442189B1.804@jeanniusdesigns.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060322094303.03368370@orerockon.com> Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current bid) + $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for a used imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the Crystalite original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft Kit (<$250 new, and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). At 09:30 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: >(sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the >two that went to you) > >Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough >lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge >lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and >lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! > >http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&item=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 > >Jeanne Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From jcharles at csusm.edu Wed Mar 22 10:28:46 2006 From: jcharles at csusm.edu (Jeffrey Charles) Date: Wed Mar 22 10:28:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icame across Message-ID: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB8275E@priority.csusm.edu> I thought I'd take advantage of this topic to ask for some advice. I've been collecting for a while, (helped in finding locations by this list, though I have to buy Tim Fisher's CD for this summer!) I'd like now to do some basic things with what I've found: cut, shape, polish. I've found it very difficult to figure out what equipment to buy, how much I really need, and where I should buy it. I live around San Diego, and there doesn't seem to be a local shop I can go to, nor, unfortunately, do I have time to join the local rock and mineral society. I've gone to the library and shopped Amazon, but there also doesn't seem to be a good beginners book on lapidary--they all move quickly into elaborate jewelry making techniques. Basic practical information like what brand or size saw offers the best value for a range of cutting; are flat laps better for my purpose than grinding wheels; do I want a vibratory or rotating tumbler etc. etc. are not in the books I've seen. (Probably even these questions show my level of ignorance.) Anyway, shopping e-bay without that kind of basic knowledge is a good way to get fleeced, (as Tim's expert analysis of the current bid for the lot mentioned by Jeanne shows.) So, can anyone recommend a good basic book for the lapidary beginner, that would have advice on what equipment is essential? And, knowing that its probably against list policy to plug individual stores/internet outlets, is there somewhere I can get a reliable list of places of buy this equipment? Doing a google search brings up a lot of places, but given how expensive this equipment is, I want to avoid making a mistake! Thanks, as usual, for your help. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:53 AM To: jeanne@jeannius.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icame across Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current bid) + $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for a used imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the Crystalite original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft Kit (<$250 new, and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). At 09:30 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: >(sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the >two that went to you) > >Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough >lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge >lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and >lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! > >http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&it em=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 > >Jeanne Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lehkerd at gvsu.edu Wed Mar 22 10:41:06 2006 From: lehkerd at gvsu.edu (David Lehker) Date: Wed Mar 22 10:41:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions Message-ID: Hello rockfolk, My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave David Lehker, MSW, CSW Grand Valley State University School of Social Work DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 616-331-6597 Fax - 616-331-6570 lehkerd@gvsu.edu From rocknate at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 11:23:55 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Wed Mar 22 11:23:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David, If you are interested in fossils, Hueston Woods State Park is just north of Cincinnatti. It is probably more or less on your way from Michigan as you travel to or from Cinci. Walk any creek bed in the park and in 15 minutes you will have more fossil shells and plants than you can possible carry. Here is the URL from their website with a map showing "official" fossil collecting areas in the park: http://www.ohiodnr.com/parks/parks/pdf/huestonwoods304.pdf I'm not that heavily into fossils, but I was once there for a family reunion and found a fossil shell with some tiny calcite crystals that had grown inside. I also entertained many neices and nephews by letting them pick out their favorite fossil to take home. Happy collecting! Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 3/22/06, David Lehker wrote: > > Hello rockfolk, > > My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool > rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few > hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for > shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave > > > > David Lehker, MSW, CSW > Grand Valley State University > School of Social Work > DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton > Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 > 616-331-6597 > Fax - 616-331-6570 > lehkerd@gvsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Mar 22 12:02:02 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Mar 22 12:34:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] lapidary equipment / San Diego area lapidary club References: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB8275E@priority.csusm.edu> Message-ID: <001c01c64deb$9b3a7270$f191b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Hi Jeff, The Palomar Gem & Mineral Club in Escondido, 30-40 miles north of San Diego, is very much oriented towards lapidary enthusiasts and conducts classes and workshops on the lapidary arts. You could either join them or attend one of their functions to find out where the locals buy their books and equipment. Their contact phone # is 760-743-0809, and as far as I know, they don't have a web site. A URL is not on a recent club flyer. Cheers, Erich kern Murrieta, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Charles" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 10:28 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross I thought I'd take advantage of this topic to ask for some advice. I've been collecting for a while, (helped in finding locations by this list, though I have to buy Tim Fisher's CD for this summer!) I'd like now to do some basic things with what I've found: cut, shape, polish. I've found it very difficult to figure out what equipment to buy, how much I really need, and where I should buy it. I live around San Diego, and there doesn't seem to be a local shop I can go to, nor, unfortunately, do I have time to join the local rock and mineral society. I've gone to the library and shopped Amazon, but there also doesn't seem to be a good beginners book on lapidary--they all move quickly into elaborate jewelry making techniques. Basic practical information like what brand or size saw offers the best value for a range of cutting; are flat laps better for my purpose than grinding wheels; do I want a vibratory or rotating tumbler etc. etc. are not in the books I've seen. (Probably even these questions show my level of ignorance.) Anyway, shopping e-bay without that kind of basic knowledge is a good way to get fleeced, (as Tim's expert analysis of the current bid for the lot mentioned by Jeanne shows.) So, can anyone recommend a good basic book for the lapidary beginner, that would have advice on what equipment is essential? And, knowing that its probably against list policy to plug individual stores/internet outlets, is there somewhere I can get a reliable list of places of buy this equipment? Doing a google search brings up a lot of places, but given how expensive this equipment is, I want to avoid making a mistake! Thanks, as usual, for your help. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:53 AM To: jeanne@jeannius.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icame across Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current bid) + $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for a used imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the Crystalite original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft Kit (<$250 new, and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). At 09:30 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: >(sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the >two that went to you) > >Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough >lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge >lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and >lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! > >http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&it em=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 > >Jeanne Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Ted at crystalgems.com Wed Mar 22 12:45:55 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Wed Mar 22 12:45:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross In-Reply-To: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB8275E@priority.csusm.edu> Message-ID: <001501c64df1$8fb4b680$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Jeff: As for as reliable places to buy equipment, you'll find that opinion still carries a lot of weight and we are very fervent about that opinion. I tend to favor Bombay Bazar for most of my supplies (belts, diamond powder, diamond wheels, blades) http://secure.mycart.net/catalogs/store.asp?pid=11230&catid=20724 . His website isn't much and his catalogs are printed lists, but he is very quick, reliable and usually cheap. Better is that he has most of the stuff you ask for in stock. Don't be put off if his website doesn't list something. He doesn't put everything on the website so call him and ask. By all means though, shop around. Searching for lapidary supplies will get plenty of hits. The basic books: First of all, the bible: Gem Cutting, a Lapidary's manual by John Sinkankus is the book to get. Dated it may look, valuable it is. I took a quick peek and Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0442076118/sr=8-2/qid=1143058290/ref=pd_bbs _2/104-1024419-8907947?%5Fencoding=UTF8 lists a number of places to get it used and I am sure Borders and Barnes and Noble can do the same. Next on my list of recommendations would be Gemcraft by Lelande Quick and Hugh Leiper. Equipment is a very open area. I am opinionated so bear this in mind. 6" rock rascal for trimming, actually almost any 6" saw is decent and will trim rough for you. 10" slab saw for basic cuts; I like the Raytech http://www.raytech-ind.com/ and Diamond Pacific stuff http://www.diamondpacific.com/. Same for the cabochon stuff. I prefer vibratory tumbling... I haven't jumped into faceting yet... yet. I've only seen a few items on ebay that I would consider bidding on and every time people pay far more than they are worth or more than retail. Yes, I know people who got incredible deals on ebay; I also know a guy who bought a $7000 samurai sword for $10 at a yard sale... It just hasn't happened to me. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Charles Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 1:29 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross I thought I'd take advantage of this topic to ask for some advice. I've been collecting for a while, (helped in finding locations by this list, though I have to buy Tim Fisher's CD for this summer!) I'd like now to do some basic things with what I've found: cut, shape, polish. I've found it very difficult to figure out what equipment to buy, how much I really need, and where I should buy it. I live around San Diego, and there doesn't seem to be a local shop I can go to, nor, unfortunately, do I have time to join the local rock and mineral society. I've gone to the library and shopped Amazon, but there also doesn't seem to be a good beginners book on lapidary--they all move quickly into elaborate jewelry making techniques. Basic practical information like what brand or size saw offers the best value for a range of cutting; are flat laps better for my purpose than grinding wheels; do I want a vibratory or rotating tumbler etc. etc. are not in the books I've seen. (Probably even these questions show my level of ignorance.) Anyway, shopping e-bay without that kind of basic knowledge is a good way to get fleeced, (as Tim's expert analysis of the current bid for the lot mentioned by Jeanne shows.) So, can anyone recommend a good basic book for the lapidary beginner, that would have advice on what equipment is essential? And, knowing that its probably against list policy to plug individual stores/internet outlets, is there somewhere I can get a reliable list of places of buy this equipment? Doing a google search brings up a lot of places, but given how expensive this equipment is, I want to avoid making a mistake! Thanks, as usual, for your help. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:53 AM To: jeanne@jeannius.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icame across Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current bid) + $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for a used imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the Crystalite original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft Kit (<$250 new, and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). At 09:30 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: >(sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the >two that went to you) > >Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough >lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge >lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and >lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! > >http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&it em=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 > >Jeanne Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From betdav97 at aol.com Wed Mar 22 13:34:54 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Wed Mar 22 13:35:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C81C0F97C0EA0C-15E4-B081@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> Hi Nate, What kind of plant fossils do you find with shells? I'm going to have to dig out my Ohio fossil guide. Thanks, Dave -----Original Message----- From: Nathan Martin To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:23:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions David, If you are interested in fossils, Hueston Woods State Park is just north of Cincinnatti. It is probably more or less on your way from Michigan as you travel to or from Cinci. Walk any creek bed in the park and in 15 minutes you will have more fossil shells and plants than you can possible carry. Here is the URL from their website with a map showing "official" fossil collecting areas in the park: http://www.ohiodnr.com/parks/parks/pdf/huestonwoods304.pdf I'm not that heavily into fossils, but I was once there for a family reunion and found a fossil shell with some tiny calcite crystals that had grown inside. I also entertained many neices and nephews by letting them pick out their favorite fossil to take home. Happy collecting! Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 3/22/06, David Lehker wrote: > > Hello rockfolk, > > My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool > rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few > hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for > shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave > > > > David Lehker, MSW, CSW > Grand Valley State University > School of Social Work > DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton > Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 > 616-331-6597 > Fax - 616-331-6570 > lehkerd@gvsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rocknate at gmail.com Wed Mar 22 13:55:10 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Wed Mar 22 13:55:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions In-Reply-To: <8C81C0F97C0EA0C-15E4-B081@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C81C0F97C0EA0C-15E4-B081@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Dave, Please remember my declaration that I am not really interested in fossils, therefore I may be misrepresenting the situation. What I vaguely remember (this reunion was at least 10 years ago ) is plates covered with a combination of shells and what looked to me like stems or twigs. I would defer to people who know fossils or know the area to actually say what these are. I'm sure that Alan Goldstein can give advice here. Whatever they were they were plentiful. Somewhere at home I used to have a little booklet on the fossils of Hueston Woods. I'll take a look tonight to see if there was in fact a sound basis for my earlier assertion about plant fossils. If I was mistaken this will be the first time in 10 years that I've made a mistake that I remember. I've conveniently forgotten all of the other ones :-) best regards, Nate Martin On 3/22/06, betdav97@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Nate, > What kind of plant fossils do you find with shells? I'm going to have to > dig out > my Ohio fossil guide. > Thanks, > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nathan Martin > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors < > rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> > Sent: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:23:55 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions > > > David, > > If you are interested in fossils, Hueston Woods State Park is just north > of > Cincinnatti. It is probably more or less on your way from Michigan as you > travel to or from Cinci. Walk any creek bed in the park and in 15 minutes > you will have more fossil shells and plants than you can possible carry. > Here is the URL from their website with a map showing "official" fossil > collecting areas in the park: > http://www.ohiodnr.com/parks/parks/pdf/huestonwoods304.pdf > > I'm not that heavily into fossils, but I was once there for a family > reunion > and found a fossil shell with some tiny calcite crystals that had grown > inside. I also entertained many neices and nephews by letting them pick > out > their favorite fossil to take home. > > Happy collecting! > > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > > > On 3/22/06, David Lehker wrote: > > > > Hello rockfolk, > > > > My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool > > rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few > > hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up > for > > shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave > > > > > > > > David Lehker, MSW, CSW > > Grand Valley State University > > School of Social Work > > DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton > > Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 > > 616-331-6597 > > Fax - 616-331-6570 > > lehkerd@gvsu.edu > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Wed Mar 22 14:12:06 2006 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Wed Mar 22 14:12:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions In-Reply-To: <8C81C0F97C0EA0C-15E4-B081@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C81C0F97C0EA0C-15E4-B081@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The shells are brachiopods (there are a few clams, but they are found as molds - i.e. no shell left), the "twigs" are bryozoans. Both phyla are represented today, but brachiopods are rather scarce and bryozoans are mostly pretty obscure. There are also occasional snails, trilobites, crinoids and other primitive relatives of starfish, and other rare things. Too early for fish. The area around Cincinnati (the Ordovician deposits of the "Cincinnati Arch") has some of the best preserved fossils of their age in the world. Pete Richards > >Hi Nate, > What kind of plant fossils do you find with shells? I'm going to >have to dig out >my Ohio fossil guide. >Thanks, >Dave > >-----Original Message----- >From: Nathan Martin >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors >Sent: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:23:55 -0500 >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions > > >David, > >If you are interested in fossils, Hueston Woods State Park is just north of >Cincinnatti. It is probably more or less on your way from Michigan as you >travel to or from Cinci. Walk any creek bed in the park and in 15 minutes >you will have more fossil shells and plants than you can possible carry. >Here is the URL from their website with a map showing "official" fossil >collecting areas in the park: >http://www.ohiodnr.com/parks/parks/pdf/huestonwoods304.pdf > >I'm not that heavily into fossils, but I was once there for a family reunion >and found a fossil shell with some tiny calcite crystals that had grown >inside. I also entertained many neices and nephews by letting them pick out >their favorite fossil to take home. > >Happy collecting! > >Nate Martin >Lexington, MA > > >On 3/22/06, David Lehker wrote: >> >> Hello rockfolk, >> >> My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool >> rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few >> hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for >> shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave >> >> >> >> David Lehker, MSW, CSW >> Grand Valley State University >> School of Social Work >> DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton >> Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 >> 616-331-6597 >> Fax - 616-331-6570 >> lehkerd@gvsu.edu >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From tam2819 at cox.net Wed Mar 22 14:18:03 2006 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Wed Mar 22 14:18:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] lapidary equipment / San Diego area lapidary club In-Reply-To: <001c01c64deb$9b3a7270$f191b2d1@TheBlackAdder> References: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB8275E@priority.csusm.edu> <001c01c64deb$9b3a7270$f191b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <4c3bbc9e7a60a803ec56e39f7108d457@cox.net> Palomar Gem and Mineral does have a web site. > http://palomargem.org/ Terrie I believe there is a club meeting in Escondido area tonight. From gene at fossilnut.com Wed Mar 22 16:22:35 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Wed Mar 22 16:22:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icame across References: <442189B1.804@jeanniusdesigns.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060322094303.03368370@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <002301c64e0f$e2640700$6400a8c0@hppav> Not to mention the fact that I've bought 2 used Foredom's this year (one had never actually been used) for $150. Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Fisher" To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icame across > Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current bid) + > $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for a used > imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the Crystalite > original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft Kit (<$250 new, > and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). > > From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Mar 22 16:52:43 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Mar 22 16:52:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions References: Message-ID: <003c01c64e14$1810e270$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> The Cincinnati Museum Center (in downtown) has some great exhibits, including a walk-though Pleistocene exhibit. I haven't been in the museum for a few years, but the gift shop did sell a lot of geological specimens and had some great books. Virtually any outcrop you find will have fossils in them. A lot of folks collecting behind shopping centers in northern Kentucky. I suggest visiting the Dry Dredgers web site (www.drydredgers.org). With a little more advance notice, you could have hooked up with a member to go collecting. The forecast this weekend is temps in the mid 40's. They had snow yesterday, but it was sunny today, so most may have melted. I'm not in Cincy, so I can verify that. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lehker" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 1:41 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions > Hello rockfolk, > > My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool > rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few > hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for > shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave > > > > David Lehker, MSW, CSW > Grand Valley State University > School of Social Work > DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton > Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 > 616-331-6597 > Fax - 616-331-6570 > lehkerd@gvsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Mar 22 18:11:47 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Mar 22 18:08:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions References: Message-ID: <44220302.1958@Tomaszewski.net> David Lehker wrote: > > Hello rockfolk, > > My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave Hi Dave, If you are going down US25 thru Indiana there is a roadcut at Richmond, IN (18 miles from the Ohio border) that is a great place to collect middle ordovican fossils. Kreigh From jcharles at csusm.edu Wed Mar 22 20:19:35 2006 From: jcharles at csusm.edu (Jeffrey Charles) Date: Wed Mar 22 20:21:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] lapidary equipment / San Diego area lapidary club References: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB8275E@priority.csusm.edu><001c01c64deb$9b3a7270$f191b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <4c3bbc9e7a60a803ec56e39f7108d457@cox.net> Message-ID: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B04390C20@priority.csusm.edu> Ted, Erich, Terrie: Thanks a lot. This was just what I needed. The rockhounds list comes through again! Jeff --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Thu Mar 23 08:26:09 2006 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Thu Mar 23 08:26:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Advertisement - Arkansas Estate Minerals References: <000701c647c3$dfdbda00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <001601c64abd$156012d0$0d8c4c0c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <002801c64e96$7eba5740$0100007f@LarryRush> Hello, group; I have received the next phase of the Arkansas estate sale. This box has about 40 Wavellite pieces, mostly cabinet sized, but a few smaller. A couple are huge, in the order of 20X30cm! The site is Avant, Ark. and they are of what I would call medium to good quality.The marked prices are from $20-85, but I have leeway to reduce them somewhat. If anyone has any interest in any (or all??) of these, let me know privately what size and quality you want and I can send pics. Thanks for your indulgence for these ads! Larry From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Thu Mar 23 08:43:22 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Thu Mar 23 08:43:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Advertisement - Arkansas Estate Minerals References: <000701c647c3$dfdbda00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><001601c64abd$156012d0$0d8c4c0c@LarryRush> <002801c64e96$7eba5740$0100007f@LarryRush> Message-ID: <003801c64e98$e63f9540$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Can we see the photos? AA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rush" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Advertisement - Arkansas Estate Minerals > Hello, group; > > I have received the next phase of the Arkansas estate sale. This box has > about 40 Wavellite pieces, mostly cabinet sized, but a few smaller. A > couple are huge, in the order of 20X30cm! The site is Avant, Ark. and they > are of what I would call medium to good quality.The marked prices are from > $20-85, but I have leeway to reduce them somewhat. If anyone has any > interest in any (or all??) of these, let me know privately what size and > quality you want and I can send pics. > > Thanks for your indulgence for these ads! > > Larry > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Thu Mar 23 07:36:44 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Thu Mar 23 09:40:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross References: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB8275E@priority.csusm.edu> Message-ID: <000201c64ea0$cfab9420$324cd0c4@privatehome> Hi Jeff, Contact the local Gem and Mineral Club, whose members should be able to help you by showing you various books. Contact the San Diego Mineral and Gem Society whose Editor of "The Pegmatite" and Vice President is Anne Schafer at annes@san.rr.com. Also contact Sharon Cisneros of Mineralogical Research Co., 15840 East Alta Vista Way, San Jose, Ca 95127-1737. who have a wide selection of new and second hand books (e-mail:-xtls@minresco.com) Regards from a sunny South Africa, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Charles" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross >I thought I'd take advantage of this topic to ask for some advice. I've > been collecting for a while, (helped in finding locations by this list, > though I have to buy Tim Fisher's CD for this summer!) > I'd like now to do some basic things with what I've found: cut, shape, > polish. I've found it very difficult to figure out what equipment to > buy, how much I really need, and where I should buy it. I live around > San Diego, and there doesn't seem to be a local shop I can go to, nor, > unfortunately, do I have time to join the local rock and mineral > society. I've gone to the library and shopped Amazon, but there also > doesn't seem to be a good beginners book on lapidary--they all move > quickly into elaborate jewelry making techniques. Basic practical > information like what brand or size saw offers the best value for a > range of cutting; are flat laps better for my purpose than grinding > wheels; do I want a vibratory or rotating tumbler etc. etc. are not in > the books I've seen. (Probably even these questions show my level of > ignorance.) Anyway, shopping e-bay without that kind of basic knowledge > is a good way to get fleeced, (as Tim's expert analysis of the current > bid for the lot mentioned by Jeanne shows.) > > So, can anyone recommend a good basic book for the lapidary beginner, > that would have advice on what equipment is essential? And, knowing > that its probably against list policy to plug individual stores/internet > outlets, is there somewhere I can get a reliable list of places of buy > this equipment? > Doing a google search brings up a lot of places, but given how expensive > this equipment is, I want to avoid making a mistake! > > Thanks, as usual, for your help. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:53 AM > To: jeanne@jeannius.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock > and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot > Icame across > > Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current > bid) + $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for > a used imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the > Crystalite original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft > Kit (<$250 new, and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). > > At 09:30 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: >>(sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the >>two that went to you) >> >>Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough >>lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge >>lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and >>lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! >> >>http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&it > em=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 >> >>Jeanne > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From lehkerd at gvsu.edu Thu Mar 23 11:33:19 2006 From: lehkerd at gvsu.edu (David Lehker) Date: Thu Mar 23 11:34:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati suggestions Message-ID: Hi Nate, Thanks for the response and idea. It sounds like a great place for a stop-off; or an extended visit should we bow out of the tournament early. Thanks again, Dave David Lehker, MSW, CSW Grand Valley State University School of Social Work DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 616-331-6597 Fax - 616-331-6570 lehkerd@gvsu.edu >>> rocknate@gmail.com 03/22/06 2:23 PM >>> David, If you are interested in fossils, Hueston Woods State Park is just north of Cincinnatti. It is probably more or less on your way from Michigan as you travel to or from Cinci. Walk any creek bed in the park and in 15 minutes you will have more fossil shells and plants than you can possible carry. Here is the URL from their website with a map showing "official" fossil collecting areas in the park: http://www.ohiodnr.com/parks/parks/pdf/huestonwoods304.pdf I'm not that heavily into fossils, but I was once there for a family reunion and found a fossil shell with some tiny calcite crystals that had grown inside. I also entertained many neices and nephews by letting them pick out their favorite fossil to take home. Happy collecting! Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 3/22/06, David Lehker wrote: > > Hello rockfolk, > > My son is in a soccer tournament this weekend in Cincinnati. Any cool > rock related places to visit? I'd love to get my hands dirty for a few > hours given we're driving from still frozen Michigan, but I'm also up for > shops or Museums. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas. Dave > > > > David Lehker, MSW, CSW > Grand Valley State University > School of Social Work > DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton > Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 > 616-331-6597 > Fax - 616-331-6570 > lehkerd@gvsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jcharles at csusm.edu Thu Mar 23 12:52:18 2006 From: jcharles at csusm.edu (Jeffrey Charles) Date: Thu Mar 23 12:52:22 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross Message-ID: <86BF48E0F11BE44D99952F9FB349BC4B0AB82762@priority.csusm.edu> Thanks, Horst. I appreciate the contacts and will follow up on them. By the way, I believe we in sunny San Diego have "borrowed" a fair number of sunny South African plants to use in our rock gardens. (Maybe not our rockhound gardens, though.) Jeff -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Horst Windisch Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:37 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross Hi Jeff, Contact the local Gem and Mineral Club, whose members should be able to help you by showing you various books. Contact the San Diego Mineral and Gem Society whose Editor of "The Pegmatite" and Vice President is Anne Schafer at annes@san.rr.com. Also contact Sharon Cisneros of Mineralogical Research Co., 15840 East Alta Vista Way, San Jose, Ca 95127-1737. who have a wide selection of new and second hand books (e-mail:-xtls@minresco.com) Regards from a sunny South Africa, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Charles" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot Icameacross >I thought I'd take advantage of this topic to ask for some advice. I've > been collecting for a while, (helped in finding locations by this list, > though I have to buy Tim Fisher's CD for this summer!) > I'd like now to do some basic things with what I've found: cut, shape, > polish. I've found it very difficult to figure out what equipment to > buy, how much I really need, and where I should buy it. I live around > San Diego, and there doesn't seem to be a local shop I can go to, nor, > unfortunately, do I have time to join the local rock and mineral > society. I've gone to the library and shopped Amazon, but there also > doesn't seem to be a good beginners book on lapidary--they all move > quickly into elaborate jewelry making techniques. Basic practical > information like what brand or size saw offers the best value for a > range of cutting; are flat laps better for my purpose than grinding > wheels; do I want a vibratory or rotating tumbler etc. etc. are not in > the books I've seen. (Probably even these questions show my level of > ignorance.) Anyway, shopping e-bay without that kind of basic knowledge > is a good way to get fleeced, (as Tim's expert analysis of the current > bid for the lot mentioned by Jeanne shows.) > > So, can anyone recommend a good basic book for the lapidary beginner, > that would have advice on what equipment is essential? And, knowing > that its probably against list policy to plug individual stores/internet > outlets, is there somewhere I can get a reliable list of places of buy > this equipment? > Doing a google search brings up a lot of places, but given how expensive > this equipment is, I want to avoid making a mistake! > > Thanks, as usual, for your help. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 9:53 AM > To: jeanne@jeannius.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock > and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] passing on an ebay lapidary equipment lot > Icame across > > Someone must really want that lot badly since at $431 (the current > bid) + $30 shipping it is already more than I would expect to pay for > a used imitation CrystalMaster (<$350 new, and far inferior to the > Crystalite original), small tumbler ($50 new), and Foredom FlexShaft > Kit (<$250 new, and the only decent piece in the lot, IMHO). > > At 09:30 AM 3/22/2006, you wrote: >>(sent this twice from wrong email...moderator please disregard the >>two that went to you) >> >>Hi all...just thought I'd pass this on as I've got more than enough >>lapidary equipment to justify my buying this...someone has a huge >>lot, with flat lap, tumbler, foredom flexshaft, diamond bits and >>lots more up for grabs..going out later today!! >> >>http://cm.ebay.com/cm/ck/1065-29400-2357-0?uid=&site=0&ver=WNA080805&i t > em=6615231860&id=&sasel=&lk=Itemdescription1 >> >>Jeanne > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jeff at spherestoyou.com Thu Mar 23 13:30:53 2006 From: jeff at spherestoyou.com (Jeff) Date: Thu Mar 23 13:31:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Check out our new Tucson Merchandise! Message-ID: <200603232131.k2NLVGUO005567@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Dear Sphere Fan: Sphere's To You is once again posting its spring collection. Please do come visit us at: http://www.spherestoyou.com/Sshoppe/virentry2.html to see the newest material or peruse the nearly 8,500 spheres from our regular inventory. We are also now making our newsletter "The Spherical World" available exclusively by email and online. If you would like to access it online, you may go to http://www.spherestoyou.com//Newslet/Vol20.html. Hope you come to visit our showroom-either in person or online.Look forward to hearing from you sometime soon..best, Jackie and Jeff (818) 991-5143, or email to spheres@spherestoyou.com. Come get a preview of such new merchandise as: Blue Smithsonite; Blue Shattuckite; Blue Oregon Opal; Pallasite (a very rare two-toned spotted meteorite); Brachiopod (black and white clam-like shells); fabulous bronze irridescent flecked Bronzite; Malawi Blue Chalcedony; green chatoyant Diopside; green, shiny copper and black Native Copper Ore, Parcelas Agate, Botswana Agate; Kentucky Agate; Moroccan Agate; glassy, high polished Pink Opal; Lime Green Opal; Lime Green Mixed with Orange Opal; Firebrick Copper; blue and white Natrolite; purple Spurrite (also known as Damsonite); Moonstone, Sunstone and Black Tourmaline all in one; Owyhee Sunset Jasper; Turquoise in Silver, Ruby/Sapphire Mixed; Chatoyant Blue/Black Pietersite; Bustamite; Kelly Green Apatite; Bright Blue Apatite; Malachite Plume from Stalactite; Rooster Tail Agate, and Red Ringed Calcite, and one-deposit-only oxidized Black/Red Rhodochrosite. We've added dozens of spectacular, high quality spheres of: Brilliantly colored Condor Agate, stalactitic rich cherry red Argentinian Rhodochrosite with eyes (the material thought to be totally unavailable!); fiery orange Oregon Opal with glassy windows, Blue Dinosaur Bone; vivid Red Dino Bone; Chrysoprase, Variscite from Utah; Turquoise; black/gold metallic Pulsite; Purpurite; Quartz with Unique Inclusions; Red Rutile in Clear Quartz; Luna Agate; Deming Agate; Charoite; Lake Superior Agate; Laguna Agate; Bruneau Jasper; Cathedral Agate; Oregon Thunderegg; Cherry Orchard Jasper; Purple Ice Cream Opalite/Tiffany Stone; Petosky Stone; Imperial Jasper; Red Tiger Eye; Chinese Crinoid; Maramamba; Aqua Nueva Agate; Kentucky Agate; Irmenite; Serpentine and Stictite, and Spanish Olivine. Marbles of: Blue Indicolite (Blue Tourmaline); Pink, Pink/Green and Green Tourmaline; Australian Opal; Gold in Quartz; Psilomelane; Blue Onyx; Petosky Stone; MaryEllen Jasper; Firebrick Copper; Sugilite/Richterite; Red Rutile in Clear Quartz, and Nephaline. Also check our Consignment and Specials Pages for New Bargains! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From folmstead at rcn.com Thu Mar 23 18:24:39 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Thu Mar 23 18:25:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] City of Sharonville, Ohio - Trammel Fossil Park Message-ID: <44235867.6090401@rcn.com> Sahronville, Ohio near Cincinnati Great spot for kids of all ages a little hard to find tho.. in plain sight I met Mr. Trammel Great Gentleman had a great trilobite http://24.123.5.76/fossilpark.aspx --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From folmstead at rcn.com Thu Mar 23 18:28:24 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Thu Mar 23 18:28:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fossil collecting in Ohio Message-ID: <44235948.2090403@rcn.com> http://www.colossal-fossil-site.com/400-states/5/ohio-2.htm --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pete82270 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 23 19:15:49 2006 From: pete82270 at yahoo.com (peter harkelli) Date: Thu Mar 23 19:15:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] hi ya'all Message-ID: <20060324031549.47337.qmail@web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> .MY NAME IS PETE. I LIVE NEAR GRAVES MOUNTAIN ,IN GEORGE.. FAVORITE ROCKS/MINERAL ARE RUTILE,KYANITE,LAZURLITE,SAVANNAH RIVER AGATE(CHERT).. I HAVE PLENTY OF THE FIRST 3 AND A TON OF THE LAST. WELL THAT'S ALL FOR NOW --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC for low, low rates. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Mar 23 19:41:11 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Mar 23 19:34:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) Message-ID: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net> There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock Shop has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can remodel the junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. The owner has to the end of this month to move any contents, but she reportedly is unable physically, or financially, to move much, so most of the rock shop and contents are probably going to be demolished and buried under four lanes of concrete. betty wrote: If anyone can help the owner of this shop, please contact her at 660-754-6443, or myself at 660-397-2221. If any one can please do so quickly as she only has to the end of March. Thank you all. I pass this along with hopes someone on this list may be able to help. Kreigh From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Mar 23 20:21:24 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Mar 23 20:19:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for book (1983) FELDSPAR MINERALOGY, Reviews in Mineralogy Message-ID: <442373C4.7060905@verizon.net> Hi all, Obscure question of the week: I am looking for a copy of FELDSPAR MINERALOGY, edited by Paul Ribbe, Published by the Mineralogical Society of America. Please contact me off-list if you have one to sell. best, Don From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 24 07:26:22 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Fri Mar 24 07:26:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite Message-ID: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I recently acquired a specimen of orlymanite, a relatively uncommon mineral found, to the best of my knowledge, only in South Africa. In researching it, I found that it was named after Orlando P. Lyman, founder of the Lyman Museum in Hilo, Hawaii. Can anyone (Kitty?) shed any light on what the connection might be? Had Lyman collected in South Africa? Thanks, Jim Daly __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From folmstead at rcn.com Fri Mar 24 07:54:22 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Mar 24 07:55:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite In-Reply-To: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4424162E.8010608@rcn.com> Orlymanite Mineral Data + Say ORLYMANITE [] [] [] [] [] Quality Worldwide Specimens for all Tastes & Budgets New Minerals Posted Every Friday General Orlymanite Information Help on Chemical Formula: Chemical Formula: Ca4Mn++3Si8O20(OH)6?2(H2O) Help on Composition: Composition: Molecular Weight = 1,007.87 gm Calcium 15.91 % Ca 22.26 % CaO Manganese 16.35 % Mn 21.11 % MnO Silicon 22.29 % Si 47.69 % SiO2 Hydrogen 1.00 % H 8.94 % H2O Oxygen 44.45 % O ______ ______ 100.00 % 100.00 % = TOTAL OXIDE Help on Empirical Formula: Empirical Formula: Ca4Mn2+3Si8O20(OH)6?2(H2O) Help on Environment: Environment: Part of a vein assemblage. One specimen known. Help on IMA Status: IMA Status: Approved IMA 1990 Help on Locality: Locality: Wessels mine, Kalahari manganese field, Cape Province, South Africa. Link to MinDat.org Location Data. Help on Name Origin: Name Origin: Named for Orlando P. Lyman (1903-1986), founder of Lyman House Memorial Museum, Hilo, Hawaii. Help on Synonym: Synonym: IMA1988-029 Orlymanite Image Click Here for Larger Orlymanite Image in a New Browser Window Images: Click Here for Larger Orlymanite Image Orlymanite Comments: Brown crystalline orlymanite with radiating structure, on inesite. Location: N'Chwaning Mine, Kuruman, Northern Cape Province, South Africa. Scale: See Photo. ? Jeff Weissman / Photographic Guide to Mineral Species Orlymanite Crystallography Help on Axial Ratios: Axial Ratios: a:c = 1:3.74166 Help on Cell Dimensions: Cell Dimensions: a = 9.6, c = 35.92, Z = 5; V = 2,866.88 Den(Calc)= 2.92 Help on Crystal System: Crystal System: Trigonal Space Group: P 3-,P 3 Help on X Ray Diffraction: X Ray Diffraction: By Intensity(I/Io): 3.6(1), 1.84(0.9), 3.13(0.8), Physical Properties of Orlymanite Help on Cleavage: Cleavage: [0001] Perfect Help on Color: Color: Dark brown. Help on Density: Density: 2.7 - 2.8, Average = 2.75 Help on Diaphaniety: Diaphaniety: Translucent Help on Habit: Habit: Platy - Sheet forms (e.g. micas). Help on Habit: Habit: Rosette - Bundled tabular aggregates resembling rose flower petals. Help on Hardness: Hardness: 4-5 - Fluorite-Apatite Help on Luster: Luster: Vitreous (Glassy) Help on Streak: Streak: light brown Optical Properties of Orlymanite Help on Dichroism (e): Dichroism (e): dark brown. Help on Dichroism (w): Dichroism (w): pale brown. Help on Gladstone-Dale: Gladstone-Dale: CI meas= 0.002 (Superior) - where the CI = (1-KPDmeas/KC) CI calc= 0.06 (Fair) - where the CI = (1-KPDcalc/KC) KPDcalc= 0.2048,KPDmeas= 0.2175,KC= 0.2179 Help on Optical Data: Optical Data: Uniaxial (-), w=1.598. Calculated Properties of Orlymanite Help on Electron Density: Electron Density: relectron=2.73 gm/cc note: rOrlymanite =2.75 gm/cc. Help on Fermion Index Fermion Index Fermion Index = 0.01084 Boson Index = 0.98916 Help on Photoelectric: Photoelectric: PEOrlymanite = 6.91 barns/electron U=PEOrlymanite x relectron= 18.89 barns/cc. Help on Radioactivity: Radioactivity: GRapi = 0 (Gamma Ray American Petroleum Institute Units) Orlymanite is Not Radioactive Orlymanite Classification Help on Dana Class: Dana Class: 73.2.2b.2 (73) Phyllosilicate Condensed Tetrahedral Sheets (73.2) with double and single layers (73.2.2b) Reyerite group (Minehillite Subgroup) 73.2.2b.1 Minehillite (K,Na)2-3Ca28(Zn4Al4Si40)O112(OH)16 P 63/mmm, P 62c, or P 63mc Hex 73.2.2b.2 Orlymanite Ca4Mn3Si8O20(OH)6?2(H2O) P 3-,P 3 Trig Help on Strunz Class: Strunz Class: VIII/H.34-25 VIII - Silicates VIII/H - Phyllosilicates (layered) Mica minerals with other simple layers, [Si6O15]6- and others VIII/H.34 - Gyrolite series VIII/H.34-10 Minehillite (K,Na)2-3Ca28(Zn4Al4Si40)O112(OH)16 P 63/mmm, P 62c, or P 63mc Hex VIII/H.34-20 Truscottite (Ca,Mn)14Si24O58(OH)8?2(H2O) p3 or p3 Trig VIII/H.34-25 Orlymanite Ca4Mn3Si8O20(OH)6?2(H2O) P 3-,P 3 Trig VIII/H.34-28 Fedorite KNa4Ca4(Al,Si)16O36(OH,F)4?6(H2O) C1 1 VIII/H.34-30 Reyerite (Na,K)4Ca14Si22Al2O58(OH)8?6(H2O) P 3 3 VIII/H.34-40 Gyrolite NaCa16Si23AlO60(OH)8?64(H2O) P 61 6 VIII/H.34-45 Tungusite Ca14(OH)8(Si8O20)3Fe9(OH)14 P1 1 VIII/H.34-50 Zeophyllite Ca4Si3O8(OH,F)4?2(H2O) R 3 3 VIII/H.34-70 Armstrongite CaZrSi6O15?3(H2O) C 2 2 Other Orlymanite Information Help on References: References: NAME( Dana8) PHYS. PROP.(Dana8) OPTIC PROP.(Dana8) Help on See Also: See Also: Links to other databases for Orlymanite : 1 -Am. Min. Crystal Structure Database 2 -Athena 3 - EUROmin Project 4 -Google Images 5 -Google Scholar 6 -Handbook of Mineralogy (MinSocAm) 7 -Handbook of Mineralogy (UofA) 8 -MinDAT 9 -MinMax(Deutsch) 10 -MinMax(English) 11 -Mineralienatlas (Deutsch) 12 -?cole des Mines de Paris Search for Orlymanite using: Google Web webmineral.com [ALTAVISTA ] [AOL ] [About.com ] [All-The-Web ] [HotBot ] [Ixquick ] [LookSmart ] [MAMMA ] [MSN.COM ] [Netscape ] [Teoma ] [Wikipedia ] [YAHOO ] Visit our Advertisers for Orlymanite : Translate Orlymanite Mineral Data : Babel Fish Translation Ask about Orlymanite here : Ask-A-Mineralogist from the Mineralogical Society of America Mindat.org's Discussion Groups Original Rockhounds Discussion Group Rockhounds Discussion Group on Yahoo Groups __..--..__..--..__ Jim Daly wrote: >I recently acquired a specimen of orlymanite, a >relatively uncommon mineral found, to the best of my >knowledge, only in South Africa. >In researching it, I found that it was named after >Orlando P. Lyman, founder of the Lyman Museum in Hilo, >Hawaii. >Can anyone (Kitty?) shed any light on what the >connection might be? Had Lyman collected in South >Africa? >Thanks, >Jim Daly > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) multipart/related text/html image/gif image/gif image/jpeg image/gif image/gif image/gif --- From folmstead at rcn.com Fri Mar 24 08:08:58 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Mar 24 08:09:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] orlymanite Message-ID: <4424199A.5010000@rcn.com> http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=Orlymanite&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dcb3d7ca5117dc1f5%26clickedItemRank%3D6%26userQuery%3DOrlymanite%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Frruff.geo.arizona.edu%2Fdoclib%2Fam%2Fvol75%2FAM75_923.pdf%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPIndex%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Frruff.geo.arizona.edu%2Fdoclib%2Fam%2Fvol75%2FAM75_923.pdf --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html text/html --- From folmstead at rcn.com Fri Mar 24 08:11:43 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Mar 24 08:11:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite - "NAMED AFTER" In-Reply-To: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44241A3F.9050106@rcn.com> HI "Named After" Orlando..... Not found by him However, good questiion... Cheerio GMO __..--..__ >.--..__ Jim Daly wrote: >I recently acquired a specimen of orlymanite, a >relatively uncommon mineral found, to the best of my >knowledge, only in South Africa. >In researching it, I found that it was named after >Orlando P. Lyman, founder of the Lyman Museum in Hilo, >Hawaii. >Can anyone (Kitty?) shed any light on what the >connection might be? Had Lyman collected in South >Africa? >Thanks, >Jim Daly > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Mar 24 15:47:23 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Mar 24 15:45:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite References: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44248478.2E30@Tomaszewski.net> Jim Daly wrote: > > I recently acquired a specimen of orlymanite, a > relatively uncommon mineral found, to the best of my > knowledge, only in South Africa. > In researching it, I found that it was named after > Orlando P. Lyman, founder of the Lyman Museum in Hilo, > Hawaii. > Can anyone (Kitty?) shed any light on what the > connection might be? Had Lyman collected in South > Africa? > Thanks, > Jim Daly > I did a google search for "Why was orlymanite named after Orlando Lyman?" and found a Journal entry at hawaii.rr that was only available as a cached page. It reported that Orlymanite was discovered by Orlando Lyman, the great grandson of David and Sarah Lyman, who's home is next door to the Lyman Museum. David and Sarah were missionaries from New England. The journal entry was a report of a visit to the museum. Wanting something more authoritive I found the reference publication for Orlymanite on-line. In the Introduction of the paper publishing the discovery of Orlymanite, the authors note the mineral was called to their attention by Joel Bartsch of Hilo, Hawaii, and was named after the late Orlando Lyman who founded the Lyman House Memorial Museum in Hilo. The new mineral was part of the collection held there. The holotype specimen was donated to the Smithsonian under catalog # NMNH 166368 after it was approved as a new mineral. BTW, the Lyman House Memorial Museum is an affiliate of the Smithsonian. Orlando Lyman had a world class mineral and seashell collection that is displayed at the museum (according to the Star Bulletin, a local newspaper). Kreigh From roughrock at gmail.com Fri Mar 24 19:33:24 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Fri Mar 24 19:33:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) In-Reply-To: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net> References: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: On 3/23/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock Shop > has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can remodel the > junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. > The Governor of Missouri, Matt Blunt, created a Task Force on the Use of Eminent Domain to oversee the seizure of private land by the government. Here is part of their mandate. Develop a definition of "public use" that allows state and local governments to use eminent domain when there is a clear and direct public purpose while at the same time ensuring that individual property rights are preserved. If you want to do something you can email them at eminent.domain@mo.gov . Put Scheffler's Rockshop in the Subject line and write that they need to make the State move the rocks for her. If enough of us do it they will get the idea. (And if they need a place to move her rocks to while she looks for a new place they can use my backyard;-)) Grant From kahako at verizon.net Fri Mar 24 20:22:31 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Mar 24 20:22:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite In-Reply-To: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060324152622.8459.qmail@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060324173434.035d7860@incoming.verizon.net> Jim & all. Inspired by your message I went by the Lyman Museum this afternoon and bought a book about the Lyman family. I also looked again at the shell and mineral collection that is one of the highlights of this small museum. The specimens are really very fine, and a special place of honor is given for the piece of orlymanite (about 6cm across, and not particularly impressive in appearance). Orlando Lyman, 1903 - 1986, was primarily a man who studied and improved methods of growing sugar, developing new species and better methods of growing and harvesting. The book says that as a child, while his family made an official visit to the White House in 1917, he saw snow for the first time and became fascinated with the crystal structure of snow flakes. This led directly to an interest in minerals, and eventually his excellent collection, now housed at the museum. Apparently collecting minerals was purely a hobby---he was a true rockhound. I've found no indication that he ever went to South Africa to collect his unusual mineral himself, but he was part of a very wealthy, influential and well-travelled family (witness the previously mentioned White House visit), so it is possible. I'm curious now, so I'll check some more. There is a photo in the Lyman family book of an elderly Orlando examining a specimen, and the caption says in part: "Orland Lyman at work on one of his life's passions---the study of minerals. Hawaii Island is a fascinating [place for collecting]...Orlando's collection, however, spanned the globe." I hope this helps. Aloha, Kitty PS The museum also has a small display of fluorescent minerals. I give them credit for having any at all, but in all modesty, people who have seen it and have then come to our house, say that our collection is about 1000% better. :) K. At 05:26 AM 3/24/2006, you wrote: >I recently acquired a specimen of orlymanite, a >relatively uncommon mineral found, to the best of my >knowledge, only in South Africa. >In researching it, I found that it was named after >Orlando P. Lyman, founder of the Lyman Museum in Hilo, >Hawaii. >Can anyone (Kitty?) shed any light on what the >connection might be? Had Lyman collected in South >Africa? >Thanks, >Jim Daly From donhalterman at verizon.net Sat Mar 25 09:44:56 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Sat Mar 25 09:42:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) In-Reply-To: References: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <44258198.7030601@verizon.net> Grant Johnston wrote: > On 3/23/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >>There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock Shop >>has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can remodel the >>junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. I sent a quick note expressing my support for the Schefflers. However, it strikes me that this is the kind of story NPR lives for: old-time, iconic middle Americana apple-pie woman about to be plowed over by the big machine, not only destroying one woman's life but also an internationally known symbol of collecting tradition and a slice of nature. If someone has the time and can communicate eloquently, you can contact National Public Radio and get them interested in this story. I'd bet money they'd be all over it. Don From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Sat Mar 25 09:59:29 2006 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Sat Mar 25 10:00:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) In-Reply-To: <44258198.7030601@verizon.net> References: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net> <44258198.7030601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1580EF38-946D-46C0-AFB8-4435BB8798D5@verizon.net> The St Louis Post Dispatch is doing a feature story on Sheffler's that will probably be published either this weekend or next. We've asked the reporter to include something about Betty's need for assistance in moving the house contents etc. At one time Tim, the son was talking about removing the rocks and minerals from the walls of the home as well. Don't know what his current plans are. Rock & Gem (May) also has an article on Sheffler's. Carolyn On Mar 25, 2006, at 12:44 PM, DonH wrote: > Grant Johnston wrote: > >> On 3/23/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >>> There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock >>> Shop >>> has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can >>> remodel the >>> junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. > > > I sent a quick note expressing my support for the Schefflers. > > However, it strikes me that this is the kind of story NPR lives > for: old-time, iconic middle Americana apple-pie woman about to be > plowed over by the big machine, not only destroying one woman's > life but also an internationally known symbol of collecting > tradition and a slice of nature. If someone has the time and can > communicate eloquently, you can contact National Public Radio and > get them interested in this story. I'd bet money they'd be all over > it. > > Don > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From efkern at earthlink.net Sat Mar 25 10:41:39 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sat Mar 25 10:41:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (eminent domain) References: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net> <44258198.7030601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001701c6503b$c1d23830$6391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> I'd bet money that NPR won't touch the story due to their bias that eminent domain seizures are no big deal, the prerogative of the state, plus NPR's hostility to private property issues. I stopped listening to NPR years ago. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: DonH To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) Grant Johnston wrote: > On 3/23/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >>There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock Shop >>has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can remodel the >>junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. I sent a quick note expressing my support for the Schefflers. However, it strikes me that this is the kind of story NPR lives for: old-time, iconic middle Americana apple-pie woman about to be plowed over by the big machine, not only destroying one woman's life but also an internationally known symbol of collecting tradition and a slice of nature. If someone has the time and can communicate eloquently, you can contact National Public Radio and get them interested in this story. I'd bet money they'd be all over it. Don _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pjmodreski at att.net Sat Mar 25 11:40:35 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sat Mar 25 11:40:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite Message-ID: <032520061940.24924.44259CB1000E25C00000615C216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi Kitty, & the List, I visited the Lyman House museum once, on a visit to Hawaii, mainly because I'd heard about its mineral collection. I think Joel was curator there then--this would have been in the early 1990s. I recall it was quite a nice museum; not huge, of course. Jim's original question posted had me wondering, "has anyone in this listserv group, EVER heard of orlymanite, before his question? (I'm sure that some of you probably have; some of you guys (and gals) know everything..) But I sure never had. I see that orlymanite is a calcium manganese hydrous silicate, a layer silicate, and it has a similarity to a number of the minerals found at Franklin-Sterling Hill. Also, it was one of those names, that it really helps to know what (in this case, whom) it was named after, to pronounce the name properly; because, not knowing the Orlando Lyman connection, I would have pronounced the name "or'-lee-man-ite", you know, like Orly airport, near Paris; but since it's named for the Lyman family, I assume it would be pronouced, or-lye'-man-ite (with a long "i" and an accent on the 2nd syllable, not the first). And, interesting--I just had gone to webmineral.com, which has a pronounciation function, and it speaks the word the first way, or'-lee-man-ite, like the airport. I assume that's not really correct. Can anyone confirm the proper way to say it? And, also interesting, the webmineral site says about it, "One specimen known". Do you think that's true? (We already heard that there's one in the Lyman Museum, and the Smithsonian has the type specimen--unless there was only one piece which they broke in two parts, not that this seems very likely.) Pete -------------- Original message from Kreigh Tomaszewski : -------------- > Jim Daly wrote: > > > > I recently acquired a specimen of orlymanite, a > > relatively uncommon mineral found, to the best of my > > knowledge, only in South Africa. > > In researching it, I found that it was named after > > Orlando P. Lyman, founder of the Lyman Museum in Hilo, > > Hawaii. > > Can anyone (Kitty?) shed any light on what the > > connection might be? Had Lyman collected in South > > Africa? > > Thanks, > > Jim Daly > > > > I did a google search for "Why was orlymanite named after Orlando > Lyman?" and found a Journal entry at hawaii.rr that was only available > as a cached page. It reported that Orlymanite was discovered by Orlando > Lyman, the great grandson of David and Sarah Lyman, who's home is next > door to the Lyman Museum. David and Sarah were missionaries from New > England. The journal entry was a report of a visit to the museum. > > Wanting something more authoritive I found the reference publication for > Orlymanite on-line. In the Introduction of the paper publishing the > discovery of Orlymanite, the authors note the mineral was called to > their attention by Joel Bartsch of Hilo, Hawaii, and was named after the > late Orlando Lyman who founded the Lyman House Memorial Museum in Hilo. > The new mineral was part of the collection held there. The holotype > specimen was donated to the Smithsonian under catalog # NMNH 166368 > after it was approved as a new mineral. > > BTW, the Lyman House Memorial Museum is an affiliate of the Smithsonian. > Orlando Lyman had a world class mineral and seashell collection that is > displayed at the museum (according to the Star Bulletin, a local > newspaper). > > Kreigh > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Sat Mar 25 12:42:30 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Sat Mar 25 12:40:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite In-Reply-To: <032520061940.24924.44259CB1000E25C00000615C216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <032520061940.24924.44259CB1000E25C00000615C216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <4425AB36.4060503@verizon.net> pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > Also, it was one of those names, that it really helps to know what (in this case, whom) it was named after, > to pronounce the name properly; . . . Can anyone confirm the proper way to say it? Ah yes indeed, trivia fun. Though the rules imply it but don't spell it out in excruciating detail, anyone whom I've asked, and who has a reason to know, agrees that a mineral named after a person should be inflected as if you were saying the person's name; hence, WOLLASTONite, not wolLASTonite, as one infamous example. Again, this is trivial, though it does become a problem when someone is lecturing and they pronounce a mineral name so oddly that you have no idea what mineral it is. Goethite is perhaps a more famous example of numerous pronounciations. This issue has been raised at the Rochester Mineralogical Symposium, in which some participants suggested that lecturers project the written name of each mineral they are discussing so people could read it as well as hear it. That begs the question of what you do with charmarite, which is an abbreviated combination of two people's first names. In that case, I would imagine there is no obligation to try to enunciate it any differently than any other word according to the rules of English. Here's a little secret about those WAV files: after hearing some pronounciations that I thought were way off, I tracked down the source and asked what official guide had been used to determine those pronounciations. I was told that the speaker just did what he felt, and didn't use any special guide; in fact after years of searching like a character in a Pynchon novel, I've concluded that there is no official guide except what the describing author may have written or told others (as with Dennis Coskren and the pronounciation of zugshunstite). So there we are. And for those who might think I am being insufferably pedantic: I say biotite as "BI-o-tite," like every English speaker I know. However, if I were following the rules I mentioned in the first paragraph, given that Biot was a Frenchman, we would correctly say it "bee-OH-ite" (I think, but you guys get the idea). In any case there's no way I'm going that far; I'd get thrown out a window for raising my hand in class and saying, "this black mica has the birefringence of bee-OH-ite." So there we are. Dizzy Don From kahako at verizon.net Sat Mar 25 16:18:19 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Mar 25 16:18:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060325140707.02297fb8@incoming.verizon.net> The ladies I spoke to at the museum pronounced it "or-LY-manite" (long i as in dry). They also said that the piece at the Smithsonian and the one at the Lyman are "separated twins"---they were originally one piece that broke in two. They made it sound as if the break was natural or accidental, not done deliberately. Aloha, Kitty At 09:40 AM 3/25/2006, you wrote: >Hi Kitty, & the List, > >Also, it was one of those names, that it really helps to know what (in >this case, whom) it was named after, to pronounce the name properly; >because, not knowing the Orlando Lyman connection, I would have pronounced >the name "or'-lee-man-ite", you know, like Orly airport, near Paris; but >since it's named for the Lyman family, I assume it would be pronouced, >or-lye'-man-ite (with a long "i" and an accent on the 2nd syllable, not >the first). And, interesting--I just had gone to webmineral.com, which >has a pronounciation function, and it speaks the word the first way, >or'-lee-man-ite, like the airport. I assume that's not really >correct. Can anyone confirm the proper way to say it? > >And, also interesting, the webmineral site says about it, "One specimen >known". Do you think that's true? (We already heard that there's one in >the Lyman Museum, and the Smithsonian has the type specimen--unless there >was only one piece which they broke in two parts, not that this seems very >likely.) > >Pete From smtravis at plateautel.net Sat Mar 25 19:36:48 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Sat Mar 25 19:36:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (eminent domain) References: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net><44258198.7030601@verizon.net> <001701c6503b$c1d23830$6391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <005f01c65086$834ed820$949d5a40@marilyn> It is my understanding from reading the article in rock and gem that the shop closed in 2005 however it also stated there was a new mine with calcite and quartz lined geodes. I dug ther two years ago like the author in the article I was no where near equipped to actually dig there you need eyuipment like at Mt. Ida hard rock equip but it was fun an productive while there I sure enjoyed talking to Mrs Scheffler. and seeing the shop and museum/collection. does any one Know how to get in touch and ask how to get with the son to dig at the new mine? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Kern" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (eminent domain) I'd bet money that NPR won't touch the story due to their bias that eminent domain seizures are no big deal, the prerogative of the state, plus NPR's hostility to private property issues. I stopped listening to NPR years ago. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: DonH To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) Grant Johnston wrote: > On 3/23/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >>There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock Shop >>has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can remodel the >>junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. I sent a quick note expressing my support for the Schefflers. However, it strikes me that this is the kind of story NPR lives for: old-time, iconic middle Americana apple-pie woman about to be plowed over by the big machine, not only destroying one woman's life but also an internationally known symbol of collecting tradition and a slice of nature. If someone has the time and can communicate eloquently, you can contact National Public Radio and get them interested in this story. I'd bet money they'd be all over it. Don _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Mar 25 20:09:29 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Mar 25 20:06:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Mineral Message-ID: <4426132B.4012@Tomaszewski.net> I was out at Grand Valley State University today for the Regional Science Olympiad competition with the middle school team I help coach. Our only medal was first place in the bottle rocket competition. While I was waiting in the Science Building for one of the closed events to finish I passed my time by looking thru the display cabinets in the lobby placed by the Geology department. I found a pretty pink specimen that looked like cobaltian calcite (or very pink smithsonite) with a patch of black acicular needles in the middle that looked almost like fur. It was labeled "New Mineral" and noted it was discovered during a recent department field trip. I found some of the geology students and asked them for details; they got as excited as I was because they had not noticed it either. And it wasn't hard to find the geology students because the Geology Club had four tables selling specimens (picked up at Tucson) as a fundraiser for the Club. BTW, going thru their stuff from Tucson I found two new mineral species for my collection (from Mont St. Hilaire). It is a good day when you find a new mineral. Kreigh From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Mar 25 20:22:02 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Mar 25 20:18:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (eminent domain) References: <442368A3.1BA7@Tomaszewski.net><44258198.7030601@verizon.net> <001701c6503b$c1d23830$6391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <005f01c65086$834ed820$949d5a40@marilyn> Message-ID: <4426161C.46B0@Tomaszewski.net> "If anyone can help the owner of this shop, please contact her at 660-754-6443". Kreigh Steve & Marilyn wrote: > > It is my understanding from reading the article in rock and gem that the > shop closed in 2005 however it also stated there was a new mine with > calcite and quartz lined geodes. I dug ther two years ago like the author > in the article I was no where near equipped to actually dig there you need > eyuipment like at Mt. Ida hard rock equip but it was fun an productive > while there I sure enjoyed talking to Mrs Scheffler. and seeing the shop > and museum/collection. does any one Know how to get in touch and ask how to > get with the son to dig at the new mine? Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erich Kern" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:41 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (eminent domain) > > I'd bet money that NPR won't touch the story due to their bias that eminent > domain seizures are no big deal, the prerogative of the state, plus NPR's > hostility to private property issues. I stopped listening to NPR years ago. > > Erich > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DonH > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Scheffler Rock Shop Closing (imminent domain) > > Grant Johnston wrote: > > > On 3/23/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > >>There is a report on another list I am on that the Scheffler Rock Shop > >>has been bought (imminent domain) by the State so they can remodel the > >>junction of the 61 and 136 highways in Alexandria, Missouri. > > I sent a quick note expressing my support for the Schefflers. > > However, it strikes me that this is the kind of story NPR lives for: > old-time, iconic middle Americana apple-pie woman about to be plowed > over by the big machine, not only destroying one woman's life but also > an internationally known symbol of collecting tradition and a slice of > nature. If someone has the time and can communicate eloquently, you can > contact National Public Radio and get them interested in this story. > I'd bet money they'd be all over it. > > Don From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 26 07:10:42 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sun Mar 26 07:10:45 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite In-Reply-To: <032520061940.24924.44259CB1000E25C00000615C216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <20060326151042.71037.qmail@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> THe statement "one specimen known" appears to come from the original paper describing the mineral. It is obviously no longer true. There is a picture on that same page of the webmineral site of a specimen of orlymanite from the N'Chwaning mine. Jim Daly --- pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > And, also interesting, the webmineral site says > about it, "One specimen known". Do you think that's > true? (We already heard that there's one in the > Lyman Museum, and the Smithsonian has the type > specimen--unless there was only one piece which they > broke in two parts, not that this seems very > likely.) > > Pete __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rik.dillen at skynet.be Sun Mar 26 07:14:35 2006 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Sun Mar 26 07:14:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite In-Reply-To: <20060326151042.71037.qmail@web34304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001e01c650e7$febd3cc0$d2a588d9@Rik> I have two of those in my collection. so it can't be that rare anymore. Grts, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2006 - 6 and 7 May 2006 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jim Daly Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:11 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite THe statement "one specimen known" appears to come from the original paper describing the mineral. It is obviously no longer true. There is a picture on that same page of the webmineral site of a specimen of orlymanite from the N'Chwaning mine. Jim Daly --- pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > And, also interesting, the webmineral site says > about it, "One specimen known". Do you think that's > true? (We already heard that there's one in the > Lyman Museum, and the Smithsonian has the type > specimen--unless there was only one piece which they > broke in two parts, not that this seems very > likely.) > > Pete __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pjmodreski at att.net Sun Mar 26 07:24:59 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sun Mar 26 07:25:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite Message-ID: <032620061524.707.4426B24A0007626F000002C3215876675507059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Right, Jim, after I wrote that post, I realized that of course, there are more than two specimens around, because you said you have one! Searching on the 'web, I see there really aren't terribly many references to orlymanite online, and I'm not sure I even noticed any, offering it for sale (now, I admit I did not look through everything that came up). But even ebay, did not have any for sale. And... things going around again... I see that one of the web hits I get for orlymanite, was a July 2002 post to... rockhounds@drizzle.com, or course, by Tim Jokela, asking about an orlymanite specimen he had. But at any rate, now, there's one more of those 4000-some known minerals, that I'll relate to when I hear of it again! Pete -------------- Original message from Jim Daly : -------------- > THe statement "one specimen known" appears to come > from the original paper describing the mineral. It is > obviously no longer true. There is a picture on that > same page of the webmineral site of a specimen of > orlymanite from the N'Chwaning mine. > Jim Daly > > --- pjmodreski@att.net wrote: > > > And, also interesting, the webmineral site says > > about it, "One specimen known". Do you think that's > > true? (We already heard that there's one in the > > Lyman Museum, and the Smithsonian has the type > > specimen--unless there was only one piece which they > > broke in two parts, not that this seems very > > likely.) > > > > Pete > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rutile1 at carolina.rr.com Sun Mar 26 05:43:54 2006 From: rutile1 at carolina.rr.com (Todd Hamrick) Date: Sun Mar 26 10:46:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fluorspar district trip and other comments In-Reply-To: <008601c5f47d$1b4d3060$456eca0c@yourb79wz4rose> References: <009501c5ebe1$068f49f0$456eca0c@yourb79wz4rose> <008601c5f47d$1b4d3060$456eca0c@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <44269A9A.5080800@carolina.rr.com> Alan, Be good to see you next week.Couple of questions: Will we be digging exclusively in dumps?Trying to decide what tools to bring. Should we get a good amount of material?I know it is impossible to say,but I am trying to calculate packing material,storage boxes,etc... Should we contact you when we get to the motel?(Relax Inn) Would there be an interest in Grave's Mountain Material(rutile,hematite,etc...)for the swap? Don't forget the smithsonite from Hastie's, and the Fluorite you mentioned. Sorry about the questions,just excited,and want to do it right. Todd From tangojuli at yahoo.com Sun Mar 26 11:52:51 2006 From: tangojuli at yahoo.com (tango juli) Date: Sun Mar 26 11:52:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles Message-ID: <20060326195251.72923.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, A geological puzzle question for the list. Attached is a link for a photo of 3 brecciated river cobbles. These come from an eroding conglomerate deposit in the mojave desert under an ancient volcanic lava flow in the northern most end of the El Paso Mt Range and near the Sierra Nevada. These pebbles apparently were crushed then the pieces healed in place with a silica or sandy infilling. I make the assumption that this occurred at depth thru pressure of overlying beds and that there was some heat involved to form a glue(but don't know). It is worth noting that most specimens do not have extraneous bits of other rock or cement on them--the cementing was exclusive to the peices of the original rock. Other info: Close inspection of the deposit yesterday revealed that only 1 in 250 cobbles in the washes below was so fractured and healed. Most cobbles and pebbles remained intact, altho there was evidence a small portion of them being cracked but insufficient "glue" to keep the pieces together. I climbed the hill but saw no evidence of a particular "layer" being crushed. You will note in the picture that there are many many fragments in the specimens that were glued back in place, sometimes with slight offset suggesting they were held in place with sand or silt perhaps holding them in place before they set. I've seen conglomerates in many places, but have never seen seen these brecciated pebbles before. Would be pleased if anyone had a theory of how these form, or can forward me to articles you've seen documenting such phenomena, or geological keywords I can use in searching geological databases. I have a couple small specimens I can send for further study. http://mypage.iu.edu/~ttuttle/BrecciatedCobblesMixsm.JPG Note about photo: scale is in centimeters, 10cm represented in the black bar. The large piece to the rear right was crushed and offset several degrees before healed. thanks for any list-wisdom on this, Tina t --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jaybates at rcn.com Sun Mar 26 12:29:05 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Sun Mar 26 12:23:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles References: <20060326195251.72923.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000501c65113$ee37ca60$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> The best brecciated jasper that I know of is Stone Canyon Jasper from the Coast Range in California. I am sure there is many others. I don't think it is terrible rare. I have found it several places in the Coast Range. Here is a photo of some Stone Canyon Jasper. As you can see, it is well cemented together. If it is not totally cemented back together, it only has value as a conversation piece. http://www.greatslabs.com/images/slab130jasper_stone-canyon.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: "tango juli" To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles > Hello everyone, > A geological puzzle question for the list. > Attached is a link for a photo of 3 brecciated river cobbles. These come from an eroding conglomerate deposit in the mojave desert under an ancient volcanic lava flow in the northern most end of the El Paso Mt Range and near the Sierra Nevada. These pebbles apparently were crushed then the pieces healed in place with a silica or sandy infilling. I make the assumption that this occurred at depth thru pressure of overlying beds and that there was some heat involved to form a glue(but don't know). It is worth noting that most specimens do not have extraneous bits of other rock or cement on them--the cementing was exclusive to the peices of the original rock. > > Other info: Close inspection of the deposit yesterday revealed that only 1 in 250 cobbles in the washes below was so fractured and healed. Most cobbles and pebbles remained intact, altho there was evidence a small portion of them being cracked but insufficient "glue" to keep the pieces together. I climbed the hill but saw no evidence of a particular "layer" being crushed. > You will note in the picture that there are many many fragments in the specimens that were glued back in place, sometimes with slight offset suggesting they were held in place with sand or silt perhaps holding them in place before they set. > I've seen conglomerates in many places, but have never seen seen these brecciated pebbles before. > Would be pleased if anyone had a theory of how these form, or can forward me to articles you've seen documenting such phenomena, or geological keywords I can use in searching geological databases. I have a couple small specimens I can send for further study. > http://mypage.iu.edu/~ttuttle/BrecciatedCobblesMixsm.JPG > Note about photo: scale is in centimeters, 10cm represented in the black bar. The large piece to the rear right was crushed and offset several degrees before healed. > thanks for any list-wisdom on this, > Tina t > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From teyancey at mail.tca.net Sun Mar 26 13:43:33 2006 From: teyancey at mail.tca.net (Thomas Yancey) Date: Sun Mar 26 13:44:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles In-Reply-To: <20060326195251.72923.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060326195251.72923.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Tina, Those are very nice examples of fractured cobbles that recemented after breakage. This is known from a few other places, the best known is probably in Early Cretaceous conglomerates exposed along the Hoback River near Jackson Hole, Wyoming. As you correctly concluded, this is a case of tectonic forces breaking the rocks at depth, when shear forces crack the rocks, but circulating fluids then cement the pieces back together after the pieces have been shifted to a new position. It is not necessary for the rock to be heated; cementation can occur in cool rock as well as hot rock. The presence of heat usually increases the ability of circulating fluids to hold more dissolved cementing agents, but cementation will occur without the added heat. It just takes a little longer. The major amount of offset on the large longer cobble suggests the breakage occurred beside a fault, since shearing over a larger area would tend to produce more uniform type of deformation for the cobbles. However, that is speculation since I do not know anything about the geology at the site you visited. The area you visited has experienced a lot of volcanism, faulting and tectonic change in the past 40 million years, so it is not surprising to see the fracturing that you found. However, it rarely produces such interesting hand samples of cobbles in conglomerates. Very nice. Tom Yancey >Hello everyone, > A geological puzzle question for the list. > Attached is a link for a photo of 3 brecciated river cobbles. >These come from an eroding conglomerate deposit in the mojave desert >under an ancient volcanic lava flow in the northern most end of the >El Paso Mt Range and near the Sierra Nevada. These pebbles >apparently were crushed then the pieces healed in place with a >silica or sandy infilling. I make the assumption that this occurred >at depth thru pressure of overlying beds and that there was some >heat involved to form a glue(but don't know). It is worth noting >that most specimens do not have extraneous bits of other rock or >cement on them--the cementing was exclusive to the peices of the >original rock. > > Other info: Close inspection of the deposit yesterday revealed >that only 1 in 250 cobbles in the washes below was so fractured and >healed. Most cobbles and pebbles remained intact, altho there was >evidence a small portion of them being cracked but insufficient >"glue" to keep the pieces together. I climbed the hill but saw no >evidence of a particular "layer" being crushed. > You will note in the picture that there are many many fragments in >the specimens that were glued back in place, sometimes with slight >offset suggesting they were held in place with sand or silt perhaps >holding them in place before they set. > I've seen conglomerates in many places, but have never seen seen >these brecciated pebbles before. > Would be pleased if anyone had a theory of how these form, or can >forward me to articles you've seen documenting such phenomena, or >geological keywords I can use in searching geological databases. I >have a couple small specimens I can send for further study. > http://mypage.iu.edu/~ttuttle/BrecciatedCobblesMixsm.JPG > Note about photo: scale is in centimeters, 10cm represented in the >black bar. The large piece to the rear right was crushed and offset >several degrees before healed. > thanks for any list-wisdom on this, > Tina t -- Thomas Yancey From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sun Mar 26 16:11:14 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sun Mar 26 16:11:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles References: <20060326195251.72923.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c65132$f69ff2d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I have found breccias widespread throughout the IL-KY fluorspar district (not in pebbles, but various size chunks of rock). The matrix is either limestone or sandstone and the cementing agent is usually calcite or fluorite. I also founded brecciated fluorite with a goethite cement and the Lafayette mine dump in Crittenden Co., KY. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "tango juli" To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:52 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles > Hello everyone, > A geological puzzle question for the list. > Attached is a link for a photo of 3 brecciated river cobbles. These come > from an eroding conglomerate deposit in the mojave desert under an ancient > volcanic lava flow in the northern most end of the El Paso Mt Range and > near the Sierra Nevada. These pebbles apparently were crushed then the > pieces healed in place with a silica or sandy infilling. I make the > assumption that this occurred at depth thru pressure of overlying beds and > that there was some heat involved to form a glue(but don't know). It is > worth noting that most specimens do not have extraneous bits of other rock > or cement on them--the cementing was exclusive to the peices of the > original rock. > > Other info: Close inspection of the deposit yesterday revealed that only > 1 in 250 cobbles in the washes below was so fractured and healed. Most > cobbles and pebbles remained intact, altho there was evidence a small > portion of them being cracked but insufficient "glue" to keep the pieces > together. I climbed the hill but saw no evidence of a particular "layer" > being crushed. > You will note in the picture that there are many many fragments in the > specimens that were glued back in place, sometimes with slight offset > suggesting they were held in place with sand or silt perhaps holding them > in place before they set. > I've seen conglomerates in many places, but have never seen seen these > brecciated pebbles before. > Would be pleased if anyone had a theory of how these form, or can forward > me to articles you've seen documenting such phenomena, or geological > keywords I can use in searching geological databases. I have a couple > small specimens I can send for further study. > http://mypage.iu.edu/~ttuttle/BrecciatedCobblesMixsm.JPG > Note about photo: scale is in centimeters, 10cm represented in the black > bar. The large piece to the rear right was crushed and offset several > degrees before healed. > thanks for any list-wisdom on this, > Tina t > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tangojuli at yahoo.com Sun Mar 26 18:35:57 2006 From: tangojuli at yahoo.com (tango juli) Date: Sun Mar 26 18:36:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] re: reply on brecciated pebbles In-Reply-To: <200603270201.k2R20r9n003939@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20060327023557.14727.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Tom, thanks for the answer. To cut down on my original post, I didn't go into the geo-history of that region, but you are clearly familiar with it. I have always wondered if the regional tectonics of the neighboring area, the randsburg area was somehow related to this odd outcrop. Yes, as you point out, it is near several active fault zones including the Garlock. I didn't konw that heat was not necessary for the cementation. The mojave has this phenomenon that I think of as "musical mountains" where some of the ranges have slowly shifted 20 or more miles across the desert, tracking with the lateral movements of the plates. Talk about shear zone. I suppose the puzzle will still be WHERE in the hillside this is occuring, and why a small proportion of the total cobbles. Do all the cobbles at Jackson Hole display this, or is it a particular section? PS I tested the "glue" with acid--no fizz. Can I conclude a silica cement? (It is too fine for my to distinguish w/ a hand lens.) If that is true could that still occur w/o heat? I did see opalizing and chalcedony crusts on a few rocks in the same area, but not as a glue. thanks, Tina t Message: 10 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 15:43:33 -0600 From: Thomas Yancey Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] brecciated pebbles To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Tina, Those are very nice examples of fractured cobbles that recemented after breakage. This is known from a few other places, the best known is probably in Early Cretaceous conglomerates exposed along the Hoback River near Jackson Hole, Wyoming. As you correctly concluded, this is a case of tectonic forces breaking the rocks at depth, when shear forces crack the rocks, but circulating fluids then cement the pieces back together after the pieces have been shifted to a new position. It is not necessary for the rock to be heated; cementation can occur in cool rock as well as hot rock. The presence of heat usually increases the ability of circulating fluids to hold more dissolved cementing agents, but cementation will occur without the added heat. It just takes a little longer. The major amount of offset on the large longer cobble suggests the breakage occurred beside a fault, since shearing over a larger area would tend to produce more uniform type of deformation for the cobbles. However, that is speculation since I do not know anything about the geology at the site you visited. The area you visited has experienced a lot of volcanism, faulting and tectonic change in the past 40 million years, so it is not surprising to see the fracturing that you found. However, it rarely produces such interesting hand samples of cobbles in conglomerates. Very nice. Tom Yancey >Hello everyone, > A geological puzzle question for the list. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Sun Mar 26 22:30:13 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Sun Mar 26 22:30:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chromium alloy Message-ID: The formerly unknown chromium crystal looking specimens Jeanette and I have kept in our aquariums among other places has been analyzed and identified. It stirred curiosity and Pete Modreski offered to have it tested. Turns out it is about 80% chrome and 20% iron. This was likely used to make chrome car bumpers . It may have come from steel mills in Birmingham, Alabama. Or it may have been imported and bound for that destination. Special thanks Pete for your interest, curiosity, and work to solve this 40 or so year old mystery! Glenn ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ Get MSN Messenger with FREE Video Conversation - the next best thing to being there! ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 27 06:52:37 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Mon Mar 27 06:52:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Orlymanite In-Reply-To: <032620061524.707.4426B24A0007626F000002C3215876675507059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <20060327145237.40774.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks to everyone who replied to my original post on this subject. As always, I got the answer I was looking for, and a lot more! Don's comment on pronunciation was an interesting sidelight, and could easily develop into a whole new thread. I've noticedat least one such error on the Photo-Atlas of Minerals: Segelerite. The CD has it pronounced as See'-gler-ite, whereas Curt Segeler always pronounced his name Seg'-ler, with a short e. Jim Daly __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 27 07:20:12 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 27 07:20:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chromium alloy Message-ID: <032720061520.20198.442802AB000A285A00004EE6216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Hi again to the list & Glenn, I just wanted to add a short note to what Glenn said about his chrome aquarium rocks. The material is what is known as "ferrochrome", a Cr-Fe alloy of the approximate composition Glenn stated (our analysis by SEM showed about 80Cr-20Fe, though the literature shows that ferrochrome typically is about 70Cr-20Fe, so that may be closer to its true composition. Although chromium is indeed used in chrome plating bumpers and other things, the use of ferrochrome is actually as the form in which chromium is added in steelmaking to produce stainless steels. The various types of stainless steel alloys contain somewhere on either side of 20% chromium, plus amounts of nickel ranging between 4.5 to 13 percent or more. Ferrochrome is the common form of impure chromium metal produced in refining chrome ore; it is not necessary to remove the iron to purify it to a pure chromium product, since its intended use is to add to molten steel in which iron is already the main ingredient. Pete -------------- Original message from "Glenn Wimpee" : -------------- > The formerly unknown chromium crystal looking specimens Jeanette and I have > kept in our aquariums among other places has been analyzed and identified. > It stirred curiosity and Pete Modreski offered to have it tested. > > Turns out it is about 80% chrome and 20% iron. > This was likely used to make chrome car bumpers . > > It may have come from steel mills in Birmingham, Alabama. Or it may have been > imported and bound for that destination. > Special thanks Pete for your interest, curiosity, and work to solve this 40 or > so year old mystery! > > > > > Glenn > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------ > Get MSN Messenger with FREE Video Conversation - the next best thing to being > there! > ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > text/html (html body -- converted) > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Mon Mar 27 08:28:59 2006 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:30:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Message-ID: Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. The link is: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/ story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument Carolyn --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Mon Mar 27 08:40:45 2006 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:41:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Message-ID: <569DE91D-1CCA-4954-9569-C8371172A812@verizon.net> Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. The link is: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/ story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument Carolyn --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Mon Mar 27 08:42:34 2006 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:43:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Shefflers Message-ID: Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. The link is: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/ story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument Carolyn --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Mar 27 08:47:07 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:47:04 2006 Subject: Fw: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Message-ID: <000b01c651be$167c7890$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> The link was broken, try it now. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. The link is: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E? OpenDocument Carolyn --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From totis99 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 27 08:54:03 2006 From: totis99 at yahoo.com (teresa otis) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:54:08 2006 Subject: Fw: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's In-Reply-To: <000b01c651be$167c7890$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <20060327165403.25116.qmail@web36715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Link broken but when you get the 404, click on the link to the paper's main page, story is listed just to the right on the main page --- Erich Kern wrote: > > > The link was broken, try it now. > > Erich Kern > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock > and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has > written an article > about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in > todays edition. > > The link is: > > http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E? > > OpenDocument > > > Carolyn > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Kenny.Gay at ncmail.net Mon Mar 27 08:56:43 2006 From: Kenny.Gay at ncmail.net (Kenny Gay) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:57:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tucson Show Trophies Message-ID: <4428194B.7010602@ncmail.net> List, I am trying to find information or a list, of the various trophy winners at the Tucson Shows over the years. I understand several different awards are presented each year. I'm looking for a list of winners for the various categories by year Thanks, Kenny From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Mar 27 08:58:08 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Mar 27 08:58:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's References: <000b01c651be$167c7890$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <001a01c651bf$a0be3060$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> The link was broken, try it now. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. The link is: http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument Carolyn --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Mar 27 09:06:04 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Mar 27 09:06:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] The Sheffler article in text-only format Message-ID: <002701c651c0$bc608290$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> From: www.STLtoday.com Highway claims famed Rock Shop by eminent domain By Todd C. Frankel ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH Sunday, Mar. 26 2006 ALEXANDRIA, MO. Betty Sheffler stubbed out her cigarette in the turtle ashtray, shifted in her motorized scooter and, with a whiff of resignation, signed the papers. She'd get her money in a week or so. For now, the 80-year-old woman lit into the young man from the Missouri Department of Transportation. "It is a house of history. And it seems such a shame, such a pitiful shame for so much thought to be put into any place," Sheffler said, "and have it destroyed." They were gathered inside Sheffler's horseshoe-shaped house in the state's northeast corner. The highway - the reason for this awkward meeting - runs close by on its way to the Iowa border. The home's exterior walls were covered with exotic, multihued rocks from all over the world. Inside there was even more rock - Mexican calcite, Brazilian quartz and thousands of Keokuk geodes, rocks unique to this region. For years, hobbyists and tourists have stopped here, at Sheffler Rock Shop, to buy, talk, or spend a few hours digging for their own rocks at Sheffler's geode mines. Sheffler's place is considered a treasure for collectors, and an ever-more valuable one as the places open to rock hunters become increasingly hard to find, just like the rocks themselves. "They have quite a reputation all over the country," said Steve Weinberger of the American Federation of Mineralogical Societies. But the rock shop and the house, and perhaps even the mines, will soon be gone. Sheffler has until May 1 to leave the land she's owned for nearly 60 years. The state needs it to expand Highway 61 to four lanes from two, part of the Avenue of the Saints running from St. Louis to St. Paul. Sheffler fought the state. But the state pushed back with a court-ordered condemnation under eminent domain. Which is why the man from the highway department was visiting last week with the promise of compensation. "I'd just as soon tear up the check and set fire to it and stay home," Sheffler said. "But it's not my home, now is it?" The man from the highway department stood with his hands clasped in front of him. He said nothing. Off to the side sat an old cash register with a large sign reading, "All Sales Final." Bit by "rock bug" Sheffler grew up a few miles from Alexandria, in Keokuk, Iowa, just over the Des Moines River. That's where the "rock bug" bit early. As a young girl, she hunted geodes - ordinary round rocks that belie their sparkling crystal interiors. They were easy to find back then. The Keokuk region has one the highest concentration of geodes in the nation. Most were deposited more than 300 million years ago when a shallow sea covered the land. Keokuk geodes are favored because of their colorful bursts of crystals - yellows, pinks, blacks and purples. "The rough exterior is not very pretty," Sheffler said. "But you look inside and it is beautiful." In 1947, she married and moved to the property she is now losing to the highway. She recalled how her late husband was astonished at the truckloads of rocks that came with his new bride. Twelve years later, she opened her rock shop. In 1960, she opened her first geode mine. And in 1971, she and her husband finished the horseshoe-shaped house with 60 tons of rocks laid in the walls. The aboveground mine looks like an old excavating pit with walls of dirt-covered shale. That's where the geodes hide. Sheffler started out charging $2 per person to mine. She closed one mine and opened another. Last summer, the price was $15 per person for 50 pounds of rocks. It is one thing to show a geode in a display case, Sheffler said. "It is another thing to let people go in and dig their own and get the thrill of it." Steve Rudloff knows the thrill. A short time after the highway man left Sheffler's house, Rudloff arrived looking to dig. He'd driven the 160 miles from Jefferson City that morning. "I thought I'd give it a shot before the highway comes through," said Rudloff, 57. He was covered in orange mud. Rudloff wore an insulated jumpsuit and gloves to protect against the chill. Sitting on his knees, he swung a hammer against a chisel pointed into the shale. Tap, tap, tap. He moved the chisel a bit. Tap, tap. He tossed broken pieces of black rock over his shoulder. He set aside two small geodes. He hit the chisel a few more times and stopped. He picked up a gray geode that had split open. He held it in the sun. The light caught a wealth of crystals colored gold and shaped like tiny squares. Rudloff smiled. "I've just never found one that nice before." "It's a terrible thing" The 526-mile Avenue of the Saints project is completed except for a 17-mile stretch around Sheffler's place. The narrow highway is considered treacherous. Trucks fly past with only a double yellow line in between. In 2000, this stretch emerged as a symbol of unsafe roads when a teenager, just weeks from her high school graduation, was killed in a head-on collision. Sheffler has known for years that the state might take her land. Last August, the highway department went to court, invoking the government's right to take private property for certain purposes. In January, the state paid $632,868 to compensate Sheffler for the loss of 21 acres, according to state records. She will keep about 30 nearby acres. Most of the land is empty. But the highway and a new interchange will run through her house and between the two geode mines, coming perilously close to them, if not closing them entirely. "That's right where the interchange needs to be," explained Tom Batenhorst, a state highway project manager. "It's unfortunate." Sheffler's son, Tim, manages the business for his mom. He wants to reopen the shop in a new location. He doesn't know what will happen to the mines. He expects the mines to be closed this year, and perhaps forever. Keokuk, a town of 11,000 residents, had declared Sept. 20, 1997, "Betty Sheffler Day." There were T-shirts and speeches. Last year, the town hosted its first Rocktober Geode Fest. Sheffler's place was one of the main attractions. Most prime rock hunting spots are off-limits due to concerns about liability insurance and trespassing. Rockhounds, with numbers estimated at more than 50,000 nationwide, say they don't know what they'll do without Sheffler's place. There are perhaps fewer than a dozen such geode mines in the country, and none as well-known. "It's a terrible thing for all of us," said June Culp Zeitner, of Rapid City, S.D. Zeitner, known as the "Queen of Mineralogy," has authored nine books on rocks. At age 90 and with the days of climbing rock piles behind her, Zeitner is working on a new book. This one is about geodes. She has visited Sheffler's mine many times. "Every place we lose, we can't get back. It was the last place that I know of where we knew we could find something and it was legal," Zeitner said. Back at her house, Sheffler recalled one of Zeitner's visits. She sat in her scooter in an area crammed with now-empty glass display cases. "We sat here, right where you're standing and pulled out geodes. She loves dew-drop geodes. And the dew drop is so lovely," Sheffler said. "So lovely." Sheffler recalled the crystal's appearance from memory. Her bright blue eyes see little these days. She can make out the shadows of a visitor standing in front of her, but not a geode's fine crystal fingers. The beauty of rocks she collected her entire life are beyond her now. "I miss them. I really miss them," she said. Soon, Sheffler will leave her house of rock. Tim Sheffler secured two halves of a large geode with masking tape. His mother asked if it was one of her favorites. He asked her to describe it. "Selenite from one side to the other, probably 20 some-odd sprigs of selenite," she said. "It's the same one," he responded. "The exterior felt different to me," she said. Tim Sheffler finished wrapping the rock and packed it away for the move. tfrankel@post-dispatch.com 314-340-8110 From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Mon Mar 27 09:34:22 2006 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Mon Mar 27 09:35:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tucson Show Trophies In-Reply-To: <4428194B.7010602@ncmail.net> References: <4428194B.7010602@ncmail.net> Message-ID: <2ADDB94F-93BB-4EB4-8ABD-F616FE588D02@verizon.net> Your best bet would be to contact the Tucson club. They would have the complete records. Carolyn On Mar 27, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Kenny Gay wrote: > List, > I am trying to find information or a list, of the various trophy > winners at the Tucson Shows over the years. > I understand several different awards are presented each year. > I'm looking for a list of winners for the various categories by year > Thanks, > Kenny > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pjmodreski at att.net Mon Mar 27 11:44:18 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Mon Mar 27 11:44:23 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock shops/clubs website (and, lapidary equip. in TX) Message-ID: <032720061944.20574.442840920008A11C0000505E216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Dear Rockhounds, I hate to ask a dumb question, but what's the link to the website recently discussed here (that sent the unsolicited email to a number of us), that has the nationwide list of rock shops and clubs? I received the email, but am not sure now what the name or url was. I might mention the reason I wanted to check it, I had a call from someone in Copperas Cove, TX (Austin area) who is looking to dispose of some lapidary equipment (small saw, laps, tumbler) and rocks, after the death of a family member, either to sell or to donate them to some school or organization. If anyone on the list is in that area or knows of anyone there who might be interested, please email me and I'll put you in touch with them. [I was going to look up clubs in that area, for them.] Thanks, Pete Modreski --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From SHMM at sussexonline.com Mon Mar 27 13:01:56 2006 From: SHMM at sussexonline.com (Earl Verbeek) Date: Mon Mar 27 13:01:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] re: reply on brecciated pebbles In-Reply-To: <20060327023557.14727.qmail@web60818.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01c651e1$af07c010$fe691540@D3JM7W21> Hi Tina, It's common in "crushed conglomerates" to find that only a small proportion of the pebbles are fractured. If you locate the original conglomerate bed, you'll probably find the pebbles are embedded in a sandy matrix. The pebbles that get fractured when the rock is deformed are generally the ones that were already in contact with another pebble, so contact stresses are high during deformation, causing one or both pebbles to fracture. Pebbles "swimming" in the sandy matrix, in contrast, are "cushioned" from the high stresses and don't fracture -- instead the matrix itself deforms, commonly by minor grain adjustments in the cemented sand. Which pebbles fracture also depends a lot on the rock type. The rocks we tend to think of as strongest -- quartzites and granites, for example -- commonly fracture first because they are the most brittle under shallow crustal conditions. "Softer" rocks like shales are much less likely to fracture because they can accommodate strain in other ways. You may already have experienced a similar effect while collecting. Take a heavy hammer and swat a granite cobble, and it will shatter. Take that same hammer and swat a clay-rich mass of shale, and the hammer head might simply embed itself in the shale a little, and you'll see a pulverized area around the hammer head, but the mass of shale itself might not break at all. Soft rocks are not easy to break . . . To put all this in a nutshell: if you have two strong, brittle pebbles in contact, particularly if the area of contact is small, those are the pebbles most likely to break. Same phenomenon as stiletto heels occasionally punching through the wood of a dancehall floor. Cheers- Earl ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@sussexonline.com -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of tango juli Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 9:36 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] re: reply on brecciated pebbles Tom, thanks for the answer. To cut down on my original post, I didn't go into the geo-history of that region, but you are clearly familiar with it. I have always wondered if the regional tectonics of the neighboring area, the randsburg area was somehow related to this odd outcrop. Yes, as you point out, it is near several active fault zones including the Garlock. I didn't konw that heat was not necessary for the cementation. The mojave has this phenomenon that I think of as "musical mountains" where some of the ranges have slowly shifted 20 or more miles across the desert, tracking with the lateral movements of the plates. Talk about shear zone. I suppose the puzzle will still be WHERE in the hillside this is occuring, and why a small proportion of the total cobbles. Do all the cobbles at Jackson Hole display this, or is it a particular section? PS I tested the "glue" with acid--no fizz. Can I conclude a silica cement? (It is too fine for my to distinguish w/ a hand lens.) If that is true could that still occur w/o heat? I did see opalizing and chalcedony crusts on a few rocks in the same area, but not as a glue. thanks, Tina t From rocks4u at prodigy.net Mon Mar 27 13:23:02 2006 From: rocks4u at prodigy.net (rocks4u@prodigy.net) Date: Mon Mar 27 13:29:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock shops/clubs website (and, lapidary equip. in TX) References: <032720061944.20574.442840920008A11C0000505E216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <052901c651e4$a179df70$0100a8c0@WesMedion1918> http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmHomeBrands.php ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rock shops/clubs website (and, lapidary equip. in TX) > Dear Rockhounds, > > I hate to ask a dumb question, but what's the link to the website recently > discussed here (that sent the unsolicited email to a number of us), that > has the nationwide list of rock shops and clubs? I received the email, > but am not sure now what the name or url was. > > I might mention the reason I wanted to check it, I had a call from someone > in Copperas Cove, TX (Austin area) who is looking to dispose of some > lapidary equipment (small saw, laps, tumbler) and rocks, after the death > of a family member, either to sell or to donate them to some school or > organization. If anyone on the list is in that area or knows of anyone > there who might be interested, please email me and I'll put you in touch > with them. [I was going to look up clubs in that area, for them.] > > Thanks, Pete Modreski > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Mon Mar 27 16:35:29 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Mon Mar 27 16:35:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's References: <000b01c651be$167c7890$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <001a01c651bf$a0be3060$9391b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <00ad01c651ff$84018400$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Good article! Sad, but how many sites are lost to "progress!" Thousands... Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Kern" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > The link was broken, try it now. > > Erich Kern > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article > about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. > > The link is: > > http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DDFBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Mar 27 18:58:59 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Mar 27 18:49:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Mineral References: <4426132B.4012@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <4428A423.6741@Tomaszewski.net> I did some asking around and learned a little more about the new mineral. I've exchanged email with local one of the two collectors/researchers (the other is at NAU) to get some of this information. Five specimens were recovered from a single pocket in a zone (cyanotrichite to limestone) only a few feet across. The new mineral is a cobalt-copper arsenious crust on/replacing cyanotrichite. The specimen in the case was, by far, the best of the five. Subsequent excavations revealed nothing further. Consider the location to be closed to all but an occasional researcher (with a government issued collecting permit). Publication will probably be delayed for a while. Most of two of the specimens have been sacrificed to science (including xray and synchrotron) in working out the chemistry and physical structure that is needed to prove you have a new mineral. The new mineral is considered amorphous. Kreigh Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > I was out at Grand Valley State University today for the Regional > Science Olympiad competition with the middle school team I help coach. > Our only medal was first place in the bottle rocket competition. > > While I was waiting in the Science Building for one of the closed events > to finish I passed my time by looking thru the display cabinets in the > lobby placed by the Geology department. > > I found a pretty pink specimen that looked like cobaltian calcite (or > very pink smithsonite) with a patch of black acicular needles in the > middle that looked almost like fur. It was labeled "New Mineral" and > noted it was discovered during a recent department field trip. > > I found some of the geology students and asked them for details; they > got as excited as I was because they had not noticed it either. And it > wasn't hard to find the geology students because the Geology Club had > four tables selling specimens (picked up at Tucson) as a fundraiser for > the Club. > > BTW, going thru their stuff from Tucson I found two new mineral species > for my collection (from Mont St. Hilaire). > > It is a good day when you find a new mineral. > > Kreigh From ki3u at hotmail.com Mon Mar 27 21:01:28 2006 From: ki3u at hotmail.com (Berj N. Ensanian) Date: Mon Mar 27 21:01:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Mineral In-Reply-To: <4428A423.6741@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Kreigh Were you able to get any sense of the moment of discovery - i.e. did the discoverer immediately realize it was a new mineral, or did the realization come later when the collected specimens were more closely examined back in the lab? Someone, whoever labeled it new mineral, must be the key person??? Berj >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New Mineral >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:58:59 -0500 > >I did some asking around and learned a little more about the new >mineral. I've exchanged email with local one of the two >collectors/researchers (the other is at NAU) to get some of this >information. > >Five specimens were recovered from a single pocket in a zone >(cyanotrichite to limestone) only a few feet across. The new mineral is >a cobalt-copper arsenious crust on/replacing cyanotrichite. The specimen >in the case was, by far, the best of the five. > >Subsequent excavations revealed nothing further. Consider the location >to be closed to all but an occasional researcher (with a government >issued collecting permit). Publication will probably be delayed for a >while. > >Most of two of the specimens have been sacrificed to science (including >xray and synchrotron) in working out the chemistry and physical >structure that is needed to prove you have a new mineral. The new >mineral is considered amorphous. > >Kreigh > > >Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > I was out at Grand Valley State University today for the Regional > > Science Olympiad competition with the middle school team I help coach. > > Our only medal was first place in the bottle rocket competition. > > > > While I was waiting in the Science Building for one of the closed events > > to finish I passed my time by looking thru the display cabinets in the > > lobby placed by the Geology department. > > > > I found a pretty pink specimen that looked like cobaltian calcite (or > > very pink smithsonite) with a patch of black acicular needles in the > > middle that looked almost like fur. It was labeled "New Mineral" and > > noted it was discovered during a recent department field trip. > > > > I found some of the geology students and asked them for details; they > > got as excited as I was because they had not noticed it either. And it > > wasn't hard to find the geology students because the Geology Club had > > four tables selling specimens (picked up at Tucson) as a fundraiser for > > the Club. > > > > BTW, going thru their stuff from Tucson I found two new mineral species > > for my collection (from Mont St. Hilaire). > > > > It is a good day when you find a new mineral. > > > > Kreigh > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From bobl at peaktopeak.com Tue Mar 28 09:08:34 2006 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Tue Mar 28 09:08:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? Message-ID: <200603281708.k2SH8YpO021281@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi all, I heard a rumor that someone was recently at Topaz Mtn with a backhoe. They had roped off an area and spray painted warnings (like Keep Out) on rocks. They tore up an area, although I don't know which area. Is this legal? I thought Topaz Mtn was a public rockhounding park, so no large equipment could be used there. Does anyone know? I don't know if those people are still there or not. Thanks, Bob From kadok at infowest.com Tue Mar 28 09:13:42 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Tue Mar 28 09:13:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's In-Reply-To: <00ad01c651ff$84018400$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000d01c6528a$f6b55040$0200a8c0@kadok> Is there not *some* way that this unique and wonderful structure can be moved to somewhere else on the property? Margaret -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Alan Goldstein Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:35 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Good article! Sad, but how many sites are lost to "progress!" Thousands... Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Kern" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > The link was broken, try it now. > > Erich Kern > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article > about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. > > The link is: > > http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DD FBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tim at orerockon.com Tue Mar 28 09:14:04 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Mar 28 09:14:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? In-Reply-To: <200603281708.k2SH8YpO021281@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200603281708.k2SH8YpO021281@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060328091255.035afbb0@orerockon.com> AFAIK there are quite a few claims at Topaz Mtn., perhaps it was on one of them? Anyway I have never heard that the area was set aside as anything special. At 09:08 AM 3/28/2006, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I heard a rumor that someone was recently at Topaz Mtn with a backhoe. They >had roped off an area and spray painted warnings (like Keep Out) on rocks. >They tore up an area, although I don't know which area. Is this legal? I >thought Topaz Mtn was a public rockhounding park, so no large equipment >could be used there. Does anyone know? I don't know if those people are >still there or not. > >Thanks, > >Bob Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From rico at ricosweb.com Tue Mar 28 09:48:50 2006 From: rico at ricosweb.com (Rich Allen) Date: Tue Mar 28 09:51:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060328091255.035afbb0@orerockon.com> References: <200603281708.k2SH8YpO021281@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060328091255.035afbb0@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <44297702.6020700@ricosweb.com> The BLM sign at the south side of Topaz Mtn. says: "Open to digging with hand tools only. Closed to new mining claim location. Please respect existing mining claims." Rich Allen Tim Fisher wrote: > AFAIK there are quite a few claims at Topaz Mtn., perhaps it was on one > of them? Anyway I have never heard that the area was set aside as > anything special. > > At 09:08 AM 3/28/2006, you wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I heard a rumor that someone was recently at Topaz Mtn with a >> backhoe. They >> had roped off an area and spray painted warnings (like Keep Out) on >> rocks. >> They tore up an area, although I don't know which area. Is this >> legal? I >> thought Topaz Mtn was a public rockhounding park, so no large equipment >> could be used there. Does anyone know? I don't know if those people are >> still there or not. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bob > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jaybates at rcn.com Tue Mar 28 10:25:03 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Tue Mar 28 10:19:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? References: <200603281708.k2SH8YpO021281@bubbleator.drizzle.com><7.0.0.16.2.20060328091255.035afbb0@orerockon.com> <44297702.6020700@ricosweb.com> Message-ID: <000501c65294$ef7382c0$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> There used to be some claims on the "hump" area but they expired several years ago and the area was opened to all rockhounds. At least that was the status three years ago. I would think that has not changed since the BLM wants the area open to all. There are claims on other areas of the mountain. The sign is at the "hump". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Allen" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? > The BLM sign at the south side of Topaz Mtn. says: "Open to digging with > hand tools only. Closed to new mining claim location. Please respect > existing mining claims." > > Rich Allen > > > Tim Fisher wrote: > > AFAIK there are quite a few claims at Topaz Mtn., perhaps it was on one > > of them? Anyway I have never heard that the area was set aside as > > anything special. > > > > At 09:08 AM 3/28/2006, you wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I heard a rumor that someone was recently at Topaz Mtn with a > >> backhoe. They > >> had roped off an area and spray painted warnings (like Keep Out) on > >> rocks. > >> They tore up an area, although I don't know which area. Is this > >> legal? I > >> thought Topaz Mtn was a public rockhounding park, so no large equipment > >> could be used there. Does anyone know? I don't know if those people are > >> still there or not. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Bob > > > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Gslrocks at aol.com Tue Mar 28 10:27:15 2006 From: Gslrocks at aol.com (Gslrocks@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 10:27:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition Message-ID: <2e9.45f66a5.315ada03@aol.com> i received a bounce message notification today that supposedly originated from the rockhounds list. I get daily rockhounds emails and was wondering if the message i received was a phishing expedition from some unscrupulous person or if it was for real. I have not deleted it yet and will fwd it to the list if someone asks. Greg Lesinski GSLROCKS 4726 Porter Center Rd. Lewiston NY 14092 Fluorescent minerals, ultraviolet lamps and reference books authorized distributor and reseller for Way Too Cool lamps website _www.gslrocks.com_ (http://www.gslrocks.com/) GSLROCKS@AOL.COM 716-754-9729 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Mar 28 10:32:18 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Mar 28 10:32:22 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's In-Reply-To: <000d01c6528a$f6b55040$0200a8c0@kadok> References: <00ad01c651ff$84018400$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000d01c6528a$f6b55040$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: A stone walled building would be darned tough to move intact. Wood frame buildings are movable. But to move something like that I think you'd have to excavate under it and build a solid steel heavy support structure under it as you dig. Then once you have it all supported then you have to pick it up somehow. It would probably be a lot easier to cut it up with diamond bladed saws and reassemble it, but that would still be mighty expensive. BK On 3/28/06, Margaret Malm wrote: > > Is there not *some* way that this unique and wonderful structure can be > moved to somewhere else on the property? > > Margaret > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Alan Goldstein > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:35 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > Good article! Sad, but how many sites are lost to "progress!" Thousands... > > Alan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erich Kern" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > > > > > > The link was broken, try it now. > > > > Erich Kern > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > > > > Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article > > about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. > > > > The link is: > > > > > > http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DD > FBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dwest122 at comcast.net Tue Mar 28 10:36:22 2006 From: dwest122 at comcast.net (dwest122@comcast.net) Date: Tue Mar 28 10:36:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition Message-ID: <032820061836.17895.4429822600068533000045E72207300793CDCDCE9B9C0A990B@comcast.net> Greg, I also got that email about a week ago. In fact, I had to go and re activate my rockhounds subscription because of it. A couple of days later, I got an email from my ISP saying I had been blocked from sending out emails. Are these connnected? I have no clue, but I have had 5 days of internet agony. I had to then run all the secuity features and software to nab spyware, virus, trojans, etc. The end result was one "Trojan Generic". As of today, I am able to send out email through a backdoor and as soon as I can clear up my regular email, I plan to unsubscribe to rockhounds. Keep your eyes open and let's hope it is just a fluke. DaveW -------------- Original message -------------- From: Gslrocks@aol.com > i received a bounce message notification today that supposedly originated > from the rockhounds list. I get daily rockhounds emails and was wondering if the > message i received was a phishing expedition from some unscrupulous person > or if it was for real. I have not deleted it yet and will fwd it to the list > if someone asks. > > Greg Lesinski > GSLROCKS > 4726 Porter Center Rd. > Lewiston NY --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Gslrocks at aol.com Tue Mar 28 10:47:50 2006 From: Gslrocks at aol.com (Gslrocks@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 10:48:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition Message-ID: <331.10012be.315aded6@aol.com> I get phishing emails from ebay, paypal and other sources. I never use any links on those emails i always just go directly to my accts and look at them. Of course there is never anything wrong with my accts and i fwd the emails to the spoof sections of ebay and paypal so they can track them down. AOL had a detalils section you can open and see where the emails originated from where they will go to if you respond to them and the total internet paths they took getting to you. I would not unsubscribe because of that 99.999999999999999% of the emails from rockhounds are valid and it is a great way to learn and keep in touch with people who share the same interests. Greg Lesinski GSLROCKS 4726 Porter Center Rd. Lewiston NY 14092 Fluorescent minerals, ultraviolet lamps and reference books authorized distributor and reseller for Way Too Cool lamps website _www.gslrocks.com_ (http://www.gslrocks.com/) GSLROCKS@AOL.COM 716-754-9729 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From agate at cox.net Tue Mar 28 11:16:31 2006 From: agate at cox.net (agate@cox.net) Date: Tue Mar 28 11:16:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock shops/clubs website (and, lapidary equip. in TX) Message-ID: <20060328191631.VZFC17690.fed1rmmtao04.cox.net@[172.18.180.8]> http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/mmHomeInterestsList.php?cat=Rocks%20and%20Minerals Hugh Hammerslag > > From: pjmodreski@att.net > Date: 2006/03/27 Mon PM 02:44:18 EST > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rock shops/clubs website (and, lapidary equip. in TX) > > Dear Rockhounds, > > I hate to ask a dumb question, but what's the link to the website recently discussed here (that sent the unsolicited email to a number of us), that has the nationwide list of rock shops and clubs? I received the email, but am not sure now what the name or url was. > From lanny at lrream.com Tue Mar 28 11:21:01 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Tue Mar 28 11:21:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060328091255.035afbb0@orerockon.com> References: <200603281708.k2SH8YpO021281@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20060328091255.035afbb0@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <00c501f0851ceaea8e33c17d1780a8b8@lrream.com> The BLM withdrew the valley from mineral entry many years ago (in the '70s I think). At the time, they did not do any claim adjudication/authentication and have had problems with old claims being "resurrected" and of course a Salt Lake club had a claim on the knob, of which another posts states that claim has been dropped. In the late '70s to early '80s, there was a group that had "resurrected" old claims on the SW corner of the valley and posted the area to keep people off. At that time, the BLM did a rather dismal job of handling the situation, but it slowly died on its own from lack of enough topaz for the claimants to make any money, or they just got tired of it. There may still be other claims in the valley, has anyone checked the records or asked the BLM? Regards, Lanny On Mar 28, 2006, at 9:14 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: > AFAIK there are quite a few claims at Topaz Mtn., perhaps it was on > one of them? Anyway I have never heard that the area was set aside as > anything special. > > At 09:08 AM 3/28/2006, you wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I heard a rumor that someone was recently at Topaz Mtn with a >> backhoe. They >> had roped off an area and spray painted warnings (like Keep Out) on >> rocks. >> They tore up an area, although I don't know which area. Is this >> legal? I >> thought Topaz Mtn was a public rockhounding park, so no large >> equipment >> could be used there. Does anyone know? I don't know if those people >> are >> still there or not. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bob > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From albalmer at att.net Tue Mar 28 12:00:33 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Tue Mar 28 12:00:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock shops/clubs website (and, lapidary equip. in TX) In-Reply-To: <032720061944.20574.442840920008A11C0000505E216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> References: <032720061944.20574.442840920008A11C0000505E216037602107059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <0e5j22lqbeco3e2r6ao1n9ficjb96b1udk@4ax.com> On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 19:44:18 +0000, pjmodreski@att.net wrote: >Dear Rockhounds, > >I hate to ask a dumb question, but what's the link to the website recently discussed here (that sent the unsolicited email to a number of us), that has the nationwide list of rock shops and clubs? I received the email, but am not sure now what the name or url was. > >I might mention the reason I wanted to check it, I had a call from someone in Copperas Cove, TX (Austin area) who is looking to dispose of some lapidary equipment (small saw, laps, tumbler) and rocks, after the death of a family member, either to sell or to donate them to some school or organization. If anyone on the list is in that area or knows of anyone there who might be interested, please email me and I'll put you in touch with them. [I was going to look up clubs in that area, for them.] > Check out the South Central Federation listings here: http://www.scfms.net/ The American Federation of Mineralogical Societies page is http://www.amfed.org/ If you can find what you want there, it's better than patronizing a spammer. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From lehkerd at gvsu.edu Tue Mar 28 12:04:45 2006 From: lehkerd at gvsu.edu (David Lehker) Date: Tue Mar 28 12:05:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati report Message-ID: A big thank-you to the list for the advice and ideas on things to do in Cincinnati. I received several good ideas, from museums to road cuts to parks. Unfortunately - or fortunately given the ultimate reason for the trip - my son's team kept winning their soccer matches which left less time for exploring many of the options. One of the suggestions I was able to take advantage of was Trammel Fossil Park located in Sharonville just outside Cincinnati. It turned out that our hotel was about six blocks from this hidden little gem. The park sits back off the main road in an industrial park and has numerous layers of shale exposed, eroding and labeled for neophyte like myself. I still can't believe that a Midwest city has a fossil park that encourages touching and taking. Even though the weather alternated between spiting snow and rain, it was a great place to go for an introduction to the cincinnati fossil world. The hillsides are covered with several types of Brachiopods, strophomena, crinoids and branchy bryozoans. I also found a couple of snails that were in good condition. Unfortunately I didn't find any Edrioasteroids, which are the park emblem. For those of you who have collected these specimens before, any suggestions on cleaning? I have several pieces where the bryozoans are embedded in host rock and wonder about trying to free more of the specimen from the host rock. This park would be a great stop for anyone with kids in tow - easy to access with quick and interesting rewards. Thanks again to all who made suggestions, Dave David Lehker, MSW, CSW Grand Valley State University School of Social Work DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 616-331-6597 Fax - 616-331-6570 lehkerd@gvsu.edu >>> folmstead@rcn.com 03/23/06 9:24 PM >>> Sahronville, Ohio near Cincinnati Great spot for kids of all ages a little hard to find tho.. in plain sight I met Mr. Trammel Great Gentleman had a great trilobite http://24.123.5.76/fossilpark.aspx --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From turnea55 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 28 12:07:29 2006 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Tue Mar 28 12:07:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? In-Reply-To: <00c501f0851ceaea8e33c17d1780a8b8@lrream.com> Message-ID: I've visited Topaz Mountain (as well as the beryllium mine nearby and Dugway) on several occassions. Not only is it some of the most unusual rock in the world (topaz phyric rhyolite tuff where the topaz formed by vapor phase crystallization), but it's probably the best accessible place I've ever collected. As far as I know, Topaz Mountain (the "cove" or front part of the Thomas Range) is owned by the state of UT and is a protected rock collecting place. The state purchased all the claims in the front in order to allow public access and to keep it from being claimed privately (which is the case on the back side). The Field Guide to Collecting at Topaz Mountain as well as all the rockhounding in Utah books also indicate this. In fact, there is a sign in Delta right before you turn onto the 60mi straight road saying "Topaz Mountain Collecting Area." There are several signs giving rules about not using motorized equipment and cleaning up trashe, etc. at the base of the mountain. I'm sure there are a few morons who don't obey by the rules, but I've never encountered anyone disobeying them. Also, I'd think it'd be pretty difficult to use a back hoe here considering the rock is insanely hard and the terrain is incredibly steep. The best topaz is toward the top of the mountain, and it's very had to even climb up that high let alone get a back hoe there. Perhaps they were using equipment on the claims on the back side. Andrew Turner Victorville, CA >From: Lanny >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:21:01 -0800 > >The BLM withdrew the valley from mineral entry many years ago (in the '70s >I think). At the time, they did not do any claim >adjudication/authentication and have had problems with old claims being >"resurrected" and of course a Salt Lake club had a claim on the knob, of >which another posts states that claim has been dropped. > >In the late '70s to early '80s, there was a group that had "resurrected" >old claims on the SW corner of the valley and posted the area to keep >people off. At that time, the BLM did a rather dismal job of handling the >situation, but it slowly died on its own from lack of enough topaz for the >claimants to make any money, or they just got tired of it. There may still >be other claims in the valley, has anyone checked the records or asked the >BLM? > >Regards, > >Lanny > >On Mar 28, 2006, at 9:14 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: > >>AFAIK there are quite a few claims at Topaz Mtn., perhaps it was on one of >>them? Anyway I have never heard that the area was set aside as anything >>special. >> >>At 09:08 AM 3/28/2006, you wrote: >>>Hi all, >>> >>>I heard a rumor that someone was recently at Topaz Mtn with a backhoe. >>>They >>>had roped off an area and spray painted warnings (like Keep Out) on >>>rocks. >>>They tore up an area, although I don't know which area. Is this legal? >>>I >>>thought Topaz Mtn was a public rockhounding park, so no large equipment >>>could be used there. Does anyone know? I don't know if those people are >>>still there or not. >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Bob >> >>Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com >>Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rpr at heidelberg.edu Tue Mar 28 12:20:06 2006 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Tue Mar 28 12:20:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cincinnati report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Usually the best you can do without heroic efforts using an air abrasive unit is to buzz samples in an ultrasonic bath. When I used to be a paleontologist, I used to buzz things for hours (or boil them on a hot plate) in a surfactant called Quaternary-0, which for all I know may somehow represent the number of years I lost from my life by being around the fumes.... The rock layers alternate back and forth between limestone and limey clay. Weathering seems to do a good job of loosening up the clay so it comes off fairly readily, but the closer you get to the limestone the more limey it gets. There's not much one can do to speed up the weathering process. At the very least, ultrasonication will probably clean out the pores of the bryozoans and the ribs of the brachs, and make them even more impressive than they are when collected. Good luck! Pete Richards >A big thank-you to the list for the advice and ideas on things to do >in Cincinnati. I received several good ideas, from museums to road >cuts to parks. Unfortunately - or fortunately given the ultimate >reason for the trip - my son's team kept winning their soccer >matches which left less time for exploring many of the options. > >One of the suggestions I was able to take advantage of was Trammel >Fossil Park located in Sharonville just outside Cincinnati. It >turned out that our hotel was about six blocks from this hidden >little gem. The park sits back off the main road in an industrial >park and has numerous layers of shale exposed, eroding and labeled >for neophyte like myself. I still can't believe that a Midwest >city has a fossil park that encourages touching and taking. > >Even though the weather alternated between spiting snow and rain, it >was a great place to go for an introduction to the cincinnati fossil >world. The hillsides are covered with several types of >Brachiopods, strophomena, crinoids and branchy bryozoans. I also >found a couple of snails that were in good condition. Unfortunately >I didn't find any Edrioasteroids, which are the park emblem. > >For those of you who have collected these specimens before, any >suggestions on cleaning? I have several pieces where the bryozoans >are embedded in host rock and wonder about trying to free more of >the specimen from the host rock. > >This park would be a great stop for anyone with kids in tow - easy >to access with quick and interesting rewards. >Thanks again to all who made suggestions, Dave > > >David Lehker, MSW, CSW >Grand Valley State University >School of Social Work >DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton >Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 >616-331-6597 >Fax - 616-331-6570 >lehkerd@gvsu.edu > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- R. Peter Richards rpr@mail.heidelberg.edu Mineral collector Crystallographer SHAPE for the Macintosh From Lapidry at aol.com Tue Mar 28 13:57:00 2006 From: Lapidry at aol.com (Lapidry@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 13:57:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition Message-ID: <281.8405a3e.315b0b2c@aol.com> In a message dated 3/28/2006 1:48:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Gslrocks@aol.com writes: I never use any links on those emails i always just go directly to my accts and look at them. Greg: I would agree with you and that Dave is probably a victim of following the link in a phishing e-mail. I've gotten this e-mail twice without a hiccup in e-mails from the list. The link just doesn't make sense!!! Dan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From betdav97 at aol.com Tue Mar 28 14:10:27 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 14:10:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition In-Reply-To: <281.8405a3e.315b0b2c@aol.com> References: <281.8405a3e.315b0b2c@aol.com> Message-ID: <8C820CB8DB6DA7E-1F94-75E@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> Hi Group, The same mail has come through to me twice. The first time I checked my account, this last time, I wrote and suggested the problem was on their end, not mine. Dave Phillips Sunset Fossils & Minerals Morgantown, WV -----Original Message----- From: Lapidry@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:57:00 EST Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition In a message dated 3/28/2006 1:48:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Gslrocks@aol.com writes: I never use any links on those emails i always just go directly to my accts and look at them. Greg: I would agree with you and that Dave is probably a victim of following the link in a phishing e-mail. I've gotten this e-mail twice without a hiccup in e-mails from the list. The link just doesn't make sense!!! Dan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From betdav97 at aol.com Tue Mar 28 14:25:37 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 14:25:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens Message-ID: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> Hi all, I have a question I have been battling with for a long time. How does one price one of kind or rare specimens. I have tried to be reasonable in pricing and refer to myself as bargain vendor, even though some of my material is quite high end. However in collecting in WV, I have found centipedes and shrimp in nodules similar to Mazon Creek. As well as recent plants and insects from our Pleistocene deposits locally. Some of these leaves were replaced by vivianite, and they are blue. Blue on a whitish background, they make very attractive display specimens. How does one price them fairly? Any input will be greatly appreciated. Thankyou, Dave --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Tue Mar 28 15:11:35 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Tue Mar 28 15:11:46 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> Dave: Pricing unusual specimens is a really tough business. What I will say is that you'd be amazed what rare Mazon Creek materials are going for today. Not shrimp, mind you, which can be anywhere from $5 to $100 depending on rarity and condition. Centipedes, on the other hand, if really a centipede would start a several hundred or more for a decent specimen. I doubt you can go wrong asking too much originally. Another trick I've heard of is to put it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test of value and doesn't cost too much. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:25 PM Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > Hi all, > I have a question I have been battling with for a long time. How does one > price one of kind or rare specimens. I have tried to be reasonable in > pricing > and refer to myself as bargain vendor, even though some of my material is > quite high end. However in collecting in WV, I have found centipedes and > shrimp in nodules similar to Mazon Creek. As well as recent plants and > insects > from our Pleistocene deposits locally. Some of these leaves were replaced > by > vivianite, and they are blue. Blue on a whitish background, they make very > attractive display specimens. > How does one price them fairly? Any input will be greatly appreciated. > Thankyou, > Dave > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From betdav97 at aol.com Tue Mar 28 15:40:27 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 15:40:33 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> References: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <8C820D8204A3329-1FDC-57C5@MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com> Hi Gene, I already have a couple of buyers, one the curator of the WV Geological Surveys museum http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/museum/museum.htm , and the other, a doctor who has written a book on WV fossils. I would like the specimens to stay together as a collection. I'm told the Mazon Creek like fossils, will eventually be given to the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh, as they represent a very unusual occurrence for WV. I have no idea what the doctor will do with his for posterity. He will only be getting a portion of the Pleistocene material not the nodules. It is a real dilemma on pricing, unfortunately I could use the money, which is the reason for selling. I have donated materials to several museums already, but these specimens are different. Thanks, Dave -----Original Message----- From: EUGENE HARTSTEIN To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500 Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens Dave: Pricing unusual specimens is a really tough business. What I will say is that you'd be amazed what rare Mazon Creek materials are going for today. Not shrimp, mind you, which can be anywhere from $5 to $100 depending on rarity and condition. Centipedes, on the other hand, if really a centipede would start a several hundred or more for a decent specimen. I doubt you can go wrong asking too much originally. Another trick I've heard of is to put it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test of value and doesn't cost too much. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:25 PM Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > Hi all, > I have a question I have been battling with for a long time. How does one > price one of kind or rare specimens. I have tried to be reasonable in > pricing > and refer to myself as bargain vendor, even though some of my material is > quite high end. However in collecting in WV, I have found centipedes and > shrimp in nodules similar to Mazon Creek. As well as recent plants and > insects > from our Pleistocene deposits locally. Some of these leaves were replaced > by > vivianite, and they are blue. Blue on a whitish background, they make very > attractive display specimens. > How does one price them fairly? Any input will be greatly appreciated. > Thankyou, > Dave > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tfa at brickengraver.com Tue Mar 28 16:51:20 2006 From: tfa at brickengraver.com (Tommy Armstrong) Date: Tue Mar 28 16:51:22 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <8C820D8204A3329-1FDC-57C5@MBLK-M06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000101c652ca$e95c4e90$c801a8c0@compaqupstairs> Get in touch with some really high end dealers and see what they say. If they are really rare, and they sound very kewl--I would love to see the vivianite ones--if you sell them too cheap you will be upset when they go for their true worth. Ask the guy at the Carnegie. Of course dealers will always try to buy cheap and sell high but I have found most to be decently honest. Send them a few pics and tell them you are trying to move them. Tommy Armstrong PO Box 484 Lillington, NC 27546 http://www.brickengraver.com The search is what anyone would undertake if he were not sunk in the everydayness of his own life. To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair. Walker Percy > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > betdav97@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 6:40 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > > Hi Gene, > I already have a couple of buyers, one the curator of the > WV Geological Surveys museum > http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/museum/museum.htm , and the > other, a doctor who has written a book on WV fossils. I would > like the specimens to stay together as a collection. I'm told > the Mazon Creek like fossils, will eventually be given to the > Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh, as they represent a very > unusual occurrence for WV. I have no idea what the doctor > will do with his for posterity. He will only be getting a > portion of the Pleistocene material not the nodules. > It is a real dilemma on pricing, unfortunately I could use > the money, which is the reason for selling. I have donated > materials to several museums already, but these specimens are > different. > Thanks, > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: EUGENE HARTSTEIN > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Sent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500 > Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > > Dave: > > Pricing unusual specimens is a really tough business. What I > will say is that you'd be amazed what rare Mazon Creek > materials are going for today. Not shrimp, mind you, which > can be anywhere from $5 to $100 depending on rarity and > condition. Centipedes, on the other hand, if really a > centipede would start a several hundred or more for a decent > specimen. I doubt you can go wrong asking too much > originally. Another trick I've heard of is to put it up on > E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how > high the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than > once. Gives you a test of value and doesn't cost too much. > > Gene Hartstein > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:25 PM > Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > > > > Hi all, > > I have a question I have been battling with for a long > time. How does one > > price one of kind or rare specimens. I have tried to be > reasonable in > pricing > > and refer to myself as bargain vendor, even though some of > my material is > > quite high end. However in collecting in WV, I have found > centipedes and > > shrimp in nodules similar to Mazon Creek. As well as recent > plants and > insects > > from our Pleistocene deposits locally. Some of these leaves > were replaced > by > > vivianite, and they are blue. Blue on a whitish background, > they make very > > attractive display specimens. > > How does one price them fairly? Any input will be greatly > appreciated. > > Thankyou, > > Dave > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From JTelescope at aol.com Tue Mar 28 17:29:18 2006 From: JTelescope at aol.com (JTelescope@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 28 17:29:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bear Creek Message-ID: <344.e80aa2.315b3cee@aol.com> Has anyone been to the Bear Creek area near Prineville? Was it worthwhile? I'm thinking that it should be snow free, getting cabin fever up here in the frozen north (E. Wa.) Thanks, John. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From neilvojr at comcast.net Tue Mar 28 18:00:30 2006 From: neilvojr at comcast.net (neilvojr@comcast.net) Date: Tue Mar 28 18:00:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] bounce message notice or phishing expedition Message-ID: <032920060200.23805.4429EA3E000D21C800005CFD22070206539D06019004070A02@comcast.net> Greg, I also got a bounce that caused me to reactivate my rockhounds subscription - I still haven't figured out what a bounce is --- I didn't do it --- I usually just sit here and read the mail --- are we under attack by aliens, or what!?! Anyway, I'm glad to be getting my "ROCK" fix again. Neil Van Oost PS. I also had nothing to do with the upcomming Solar Eclipse.... -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: dwest122@comcast.net > Greg, > I also got that email about a week ago. In fact, I had to go and re > activate my rockhounds subscription because of it. A couple of days later, I > got an email from my ISP saying I had been blocked from sending out emails. Are > these connnected? I have no clue, but I have had 5 days of internet agony. I > had to then run all the secuity features and software to nab spyware, virus, > trojans, etc. The end result was one "Trojan Generic". As of today, I am able > to send out email through a backdoor and as soon as I can clear up my regular > email, I plan to unsubscribe to rockhounds. Keep your eyes open and let's hope > it is just a fluke. > DaveW > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Gslrocks@aol.com > > > i received a bounce message notification today that supposedly originated > > from the rockhounds list. I get daily rockhounds emails and was wondering if > the > > message i received was a phishing expedition from some unscrupulous person > > or if it was for real. I have not deleted it yet and will fwd it to the list > > if someone asks. > > > > Greg Lesinski > > GSLROCKS > > 4726 Porter Center Rd. > > Lewiston NY > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com Tue Mar 28 18:03:42 2006 From: julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com (Julie Siebel) Date: Tue Mar 28 18:06:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bear Creek References: <344.e80aa2.315b3cee@aol.com> Message-ID: <08c201c652d5$06442a00$0200a8c0@warren> John and I were up there - oh, gosh, been about 5 years ago now - for my birthday. Found some reasonably sized pieces of wood, though not of cabbing quality. Great detail, as I remember, though. However, my birthday is in April, and we were just a smidge away from getting stuck. There was a rainstorm up there and that turns the road into snot. We made it out, but it was touch and go for a minute. Dogs and I had to get out, and I had to help push. Nice, secluded digging place, though. :-) Julie From rockhounds at adelphia.net Tue Mar 28 18:26:27 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Tue Mar 28 18:20:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bear Creek In-Reply-To: <344.e80aa2.315b3cee@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c652d8$2f4bfb00$3c261643@KellyHanson> We were at Saddle Mountain (Washington) last Saturday and it was great. Bit cool but easy digging for petrified wood. Does that area compare to the Oregon area for elevation? Kelly -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of JTelescope@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:29 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Bear Creek Has anyone been to the Bear Creek area near Prineville? Was it worthwhile? I'm thinking that it should be snow free, getting cabin fever up here in the frozen north (E. Wa.) Thanks, John. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Mar 28 18:37:33 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Mar 28 18:34:33 2006 Subject: [***SPAM***] [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4429F22F.3AC8@Tomaszewski.net> Dave, It is much easier to lower a price that is too high than to raise one that is too low. Start with a high price and slowly come down if it doesn't sell. Kreigh betdav97@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi all, > I have a question I have been battling with for a long time. How does one > price one of kind or rare specimens. I have tried to be reasonable in pricing > and refer to myself as bargain vendor, even though some of my material is > quite high end. However in collecting in WV, I have found centipedes and > shrimp in nodules similar to Mazon Creek. As well as recent plants and insects > from our Pleistocene deposits locally. Some of these leaves were replaced by > vivianite, and they are blue. Blue on a whitish background, they make very > attractive display specimens. > How does one price them fairly? Any input will be greatly appreciated. > Thankyou, > Dave From getclyde at verizon.net Tue Mar 28 18:34:44 2006 From: getclyde at verizon.net (Clyde) Date: Tue Mar 28 18:34:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] location of book Message-ID: <000801c652d9$5768e1b0$6601a8c0@xp> Does anyone know a definite location of the book: Roadside Geology of Lake Superior--North Shore of Lake Superior (1997) that I might purchase? Thanks, Clyde --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From neilvojr at comcast.net Tue Mar 28 19:13:25 2006 From: neilvojr at comcast.net (neilvojr@comcast.net) Date: Tue Mar 28 19:13:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's Message-ID: <032920060313.13666.4429FB54000D3A810000356222070229339D06019004070A02@comcast.net> Because I was knocked off the list, with the "bounce thing", I missed everything about what's happening at Sheffler's. During the mid 1970's, I took a trip there from New Jersey with my mother. My father had bunks made up in the back of the truck ( a 1970 Ford F250, with a 250 pound aluminium covered wood cap, back then this was a three quarter ton job, so with all the gear in the truck there was only room to load a couple of hundred pounds in the truck before the springs flattened out) and we camped the whole trip. Our family would split vacations up, because, someone would always have to stay home and watch Grandmom, so Mom, Pop, and I would rotate who stayed home on vacation trips. Our first stop was at the Coleman quartz mine. It was about 600 foot deep at that time. I remember lugging a hundred pounds of tools halfway down that steep grade to where the guy on the bulldozer told us to dig. Mom was looking for small crystals along the rim. Down in the bottom of the mine they were getting ready to set off a charge and were blowing the horn. The man at the bottom was waving his arms and hollering at Mom to get back from the edge. Mom being totally deaf, was happly waving back at him and continuing her small crystal hunt until I went up and told her what was going on. From there we went on to the Sheffler Geode Farm. The three days we were there it rained. One day Mrs. Sheffler invited us up to the house for tea. The house was a rockhounds dream. We got the grand tour of, what you would now call exotic specimes from the area, I remember the paper shell geodes from another area especially - even back then that area was no longer available to rockhounds. Mom and Mrs. Sheffler got along fine and they corresponded back and forth for quite some time. What I especially remember was standing in a hole with muddy water up to my elbows, I would bend over and submerge, scrape a couple of geodes out of the mud and and put them around the top of the hole. I think at the time it was ten dollars each a day and ten cents a pound for everything over ten pounds. When we got home, Mom pulled out these six geodes, they were twelve to six inches accross, I had told her when I pulled them out of the mud - toss them they are solids, they are too heavy, but she had took them and hid them under her bed in the truck. Naturally when I cut them, they were all hollow. There is one half that still resides in our mineral cabnet. Every time I take it out to look at it, Mom will tell me, "Make sure you put that back, That's mine." I never had the heart to tell her about he ten cents a pound thing!! Mom is still with me, she will be 86 in a couple of months, and she still remembers that trip and the geodes she hid under her bed. We had the Ford truck for 21 years and I traded it in, in 1999 for a new one with a 3400 pound load haulling capacity. Mom's geode is still in the cabnet....... Neil -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "J Bryan Kramer" > A stone walled building would be darned tough to move intact. Wood frame > buildings are movable. But to move something like that I think you'd have to > excavate under it and build a solid steel heavy support structure under it > as you dig. Then once you have it all supported then you have to pick it up > somehow. > > It would probably be a lot easier to cut it up with diamond bladed saws and > reassemble it, but that would still be mighty expensive. > > BK > > > On 3/28/06, Margaret Malm wrote: > > > > Is there not *some* way that this unique and wonderful structure can be > > moved to somewhere else on the property? > > > > Margaret > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Alan Goldstein > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:35 PM > > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > > Good article! Sad, but how many sites are lost to "progress!" Thousands... > > > > Alan > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Erich Kern" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 11:58 AM > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > > > > > > > > > > > The link was broken, try it now. > > > > > > Erich Kern > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Carolyn & Steve Weinberger" > > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 8:28 AM > > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Sheffler's > > > > > > > > > Todd Frankel of the St Louis Post-Dispatch has written an article > > > about the demise of Sheffler's that appears in todays edition. > > > > > > The link is: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/missouristatenews/story/DD > > FBDB9A087F9A3D8625713E002BD31E?OpenDocument > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From asgardsgc at earthlink.net Tue Mar 28 19:22:15 2006 From: asgardsgc at earthlink.net (Mark Easterbrook) Date: Tue Mar 28 19:22:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant Message-ID: <15546752.1143602535115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Alan, There is a guy in my gem club here in Charleston (John Fee) who has collected a lot of amber for years and has done some carving. I know he has some that have insects included. I went with he and his wife (Jo) to Mexico in Fall 2003. We picked up some amber from his friends who got it directly from the mines in southern Mexico where we were. He does not have email, but here is John's phone number: 843-571-0422. Just tell him you're a friend of mine and that I gave you his phone number. John is also a volunteer educator at the South Carolina Aquarium (he handles a lot of the animals including snakes, etc.) Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Alan Goldstein >Sent: Mar 14, 2006 7:03 PM >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant > >My life is looking for either a piece of amber (with a visible insect) for a pendant or a ready-made pendant. Please contact me off-list if you have something. deepskyspy@insightbb.com > >Alan G. > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Tue Mar 28 20:06:06 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Tue Mar 28 20:06:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant References: <15546752.1143602535115.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00b101c652e6$1a7b1ef0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Hi Mark, I got a piece from someone last week. Thanks for tracking someone else down! Bill dug into some fluorite last weekend. He said he dug into blue fluorite... we'll see. I'll bet it is that purple-blue stuff like we found at the Eureka. He also used the track hoe at the Hutzon zinc mine. I will keep my fingers crossed that we will have a good dig this weekend. Alan P.S. Let me know when you get the grab bag stuff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Easterbrook" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] amber pendant > Hi Alan, > > There is a guy in my gem club here in Charleston (John Fee) who has > collected a lot of amber for years and has done some carving. I know he > has some that have insects included. I went with he and his wife (Jo) to > Mexico in Fall 2003. We picked up some amber from his friends who got it > directly from the mines in southern Mexico where we were. He does not > have email, but here is John's phone number: 843-571-0422. Just tell him > you're a friend of mine and that I gave you his phone number. John is > also a volunteer educator at the South Carolina Aquarium (he handles a lot > of the animals including snakes, etc.) > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Alan Goldstein >>Sent: Mar 14, 2006 7:03 PM >>To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >>Subject: [Rockhounds] amber pendant >> >>My life is looking for either a piece of amber (with a visible insect) for >>a pendant or a ready-made pendant. Please contact me off-list if you have >>something. deepskyspy@insightbb.com >> >>Alan G. >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Mar 28 20:14:27 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Mar 28 20:11:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] ADMIN: Re: Bounce Messages and Phishing Message-ID: <442A08D7.2D4@Tomaszewski.net> The Drizzle List does not send out 'bounce' messages with a link to resubscribe. Several members of the List have reported receiving these messages. We recommend that if you receive one of these messages you do not click on any links. There are some known exploits against Internet Explorer, that Microsoft will be fixing early in April, that could cause your computer to be infected with a Trojan if you visit a malicious website. We know this exploit is being used 'in the wild' against a number of lists and commercial organizations in targeted phishing attacks. If you receive one of these 'bounce' messages please Forward it (off-list) to one of the List Administrators so we can pass the evidence along to the appropriate authorities. If you have received one of these messages and 'resubscribed', we advise you to not do any commercial transactions until you have verified that your computer is not infected with a Trojan that could steal your credit card details, passwords, or other private information. We recommend you find a local expert if you think you might have been comprimised. Please feel free to contact me, or any List Administrator, if you have questions about this issue. Kreigh for the Admin Team From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Mar 28 20:58:42 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Mar 28 20:55:19 2006 Subject: Update: Re: [Rockhounds] ADMIN: Re: Bounce Messages and Phishing References: <442A08D7.2D4@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <442A1330.33D5@Tomaszewski.net> After receiving several examples we have identified two problems. The more common problem is caused by AOL inappropriately bouncing list messages (probably due to a misconfigured content filter). This causes the List server to send a probe message to your email address that includes information about your account, tells you to do nothing if it is received, and offers a valid link to Drizzle to change your subscription options. You should complain to AOL about these messages as their spam filtering is blocking the List. The uncommon problem asks you to confirm your subscription details/resubscribe, and provides a link with an IP address (instead of a link to Drizzle). We recommend you do not follow these links. Kreigh Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > The Drizzle List does not send out 'bounce' messages with a link to > resubscribe. Several members of the List have reported receiving these > messages. > > We recommend that if you receive one of these messages you do not click > on any links. There are some known exploits against Internet Explorer, > that Microsoft will be fixing early in April, that could cause your > computer to be infected with a Trojan if you visit a malicious website. > We know this exploit is being used 'in the wild' against a number of > lists and commercial organizations in targeted phishing attacks. > > If you receive one of these 'bounce' messages please Forward it > (off-list) to one of the List Administrators so we can pass the evidence > along to the appropriate authorities. > > If you have received one of these messages and 'resubscribed', we advise > you to not do any commercial transactions until you have verified that > your computer is not infected with a Trojan that could steal your credit > card details, passwords, or other private information. We recommend you > find a local expert if you think you might have been comprimised. > > Please feel free to contact me, or any List Administrator, if you have > questions about this issue. > > Kreigh > for the Admin Team From jlkelly1066 at iglide.net Tue Mar 28 21:25:40 2006 From: jlkelly1066 at iglide.net (JL Kelly) Date: Tue Mar 28 21:18:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn. In-Reply-To: <200603290203.k2T237Pi020038@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200603290203.k2T237Pi020038@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <442A1A54.9030608@iglide.net> Nothing has changed at Topaz Mtn. I was there only last week. You still can't use any kind of "machinery" blasting powder or power equipment on the Mtn. Itself. There are private claims on the North end of the Thomas range a couple that have really angered more than a few people because of the tactics and attitude of the owner. This is the area that the rather huge Bixbyite crystals are coming from. On the south end of the range, as I said, the "Amphitheatre," the "Wall" and the "Valley are still "hand tools only. Oh how I wish I could take a jack hammer in with me some day. Then again, I've climbed that mtn enough to know that I wouldn't want to lug a hammer up those slopes. There are private claims in the range just to the East of Topaz Mtn. They are well marked and famous for some of the crystals that have come from them as well as some of the garnets that have been found in the area. Ya'll come to Ewe-Taw and we'll have a great time. Kelly SLC From SHMM at sussexonline.com Wed Mar 29 04:19:11 2006 From: SHMM at sussexonline.com (Earl Verbeek) Date: Wed Mar 29 04:19:06 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21> Another trick I've heard of is to put it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test of value and doesn't cost too much. Yes, an effective trick, but an unethical one. That's not what Ebay is for, and falsely raises the hopes of bidders who might really want the piece but will never get it because of a reserve that is deliberately set way high to test the market. Please don't do this. I know I'm in the minority here -- most of the advice you've been getting is intended to maximize your return -- but there's the customer end to think of, too. You've indicated you need the money, so in this case it appears that maximizing your profit is in order, and you've been given some suggestions on how to do that. In better times, however, one thing I've done is to split the "winnings" with the customer. Here's an example: If my total cost for a specimen were $60 but I know or suspect it's worth at least $200, I'll sell it at a price midway between those two numbers: $130. That way I make a good profit and the customer gets a good deal, so I've created a win-win situation. However, I do this from the perspective of a collector who has other ways to make a living. A mineral dealer cannot operate like that, and I would never ask them to. Cheers- Earl Verbeek From albalmer at att.net Wed Mar 29 07:13:09 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Mar 29 07:13:11 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> References: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" wrote: >Another trick I've heard of is to put >it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high >the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >of value and doesn't cost too much. Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think like this. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From betdav97 at aol.com Wed Mar 29 07:47:30 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Wed Mar 29 07:47:54 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: References: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com> <00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <8C8215F3909A1EC-10B4-3DF7@FWM-R14.sysops.aol.com> Don't worry Al, I am very very ANTI-EBAY, but that is my opinion. My apologies to folks who have had success on E-Bay. For me, between them and paypal it was a most unpleasent experience Dave On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" wrote: >Another trick I've heard of is to put >it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high >the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >of value and doesn't cost too much. Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think like this. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From volgems at icx.net Wed Mar 29 07:52:47 2006 From: volgems at icx.net (John Teague) Date: Wed Mar 29 07:52:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens Message-ID: <14466277.1143647567407.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" they get. I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've never been able to buy it back! As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my friends more carefully! I would still love to have that azurite back! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com -----Original Message----- >From: Al Balmer >Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > >On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" > wrote: > >>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high >>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >>of value and doesn't cost too much. > >Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >like this. > >-- >Al Balmer >Sun City, AZ > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Mar 29 08:24:30 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Mar 29 08:24:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Well, stripped of sentimentality, the reality is that this is how the marketplace sets price; i.e. what a buyer is willing to pay for an item. And, as always, caveat emptor, "buyer beware". I see no ethics issue in trying to determine market price through an e-bay auction; after all, we're talking about mineral specimens, collectables, not a cure for cancer. Putting the shoe on the other foot, if you saw something of value that was priced at a tenth of what it was worth to you, would you not buy it on the spot? Speaking for myself, if it was being sold by a little ol' lady who really needed the money, I wouldn't take advantage of her lack of knowledge of the value of the piece, but would buy it for five times what she asked, and I'd still get a bargain. A year ago at an estate sale, I saw a smithsonite specimen for $20. that was worth $200., of course I bought it for $20., the original owner had long since departed this world. Cheers, Erich Kern Murrieta, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl Verbeek" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:19 AM Subject: RE: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens Another trick I've heard of is to put it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test of value and doesn't cost too much. Yes, an effective trick, but an unethical one. That's not what Ebay is for, and falsely raises the hopes of bidders who might really want the piece but will never get it because of a reserve that is deliberately set way high to test the market. Please don't do this. I know I'm in the minority here -- most of the advice you've been getting is intended to maximize your return -- but there's the customer end to think of, too. You've indicated you need the money, so in this case it appears that maximizing your profit is in order, and you've been given some suggestions on how to do that. In better times, however, one thing I've done is to split the "winnings" with the customer. Here's an example: If my total cost for a specimen were $60 but I know or suspect it's worth at least $200, I'll sell it at a price midway between those two numbers: $130. That way I make a good profit and the customer gets a good deal, so I've created a win-win situation. However, I do this from the perspective of a collector who has other ways to make a living. A mineral dealer cannot operate like that, and I would never ask them to. Cheers- Earl Verbeek _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Wed Mar 29 08:40:09 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Mar 29 08:40:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21> <000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:24:30 -0800, "Erich Kern" wrote: > > >Well, stripped of sentimentality, the reality is that this is how the marketplace sets price; i.e. what a buyer is >willing to pay for an item. And, as always, caveat emptor, "buyer beware". I see no ethics issue in trying to determine >market price through an e-bay auction; What we're talking about is not an auction, but a false offer. There's no issue if you intend to sell to the highest bidder. IMO, there *is* an issue if you are wasting everyone's time (and E-bay's resources) and have no intention of selling it. > after all, we're talking about mineral specimens, collectables, not a cure for >cancer. > >Putting the shoe on the other foot, if you saw something of value that was priced at a tenth of what it was worth to >you, would you not buy it on the spot? Speaking for myself, if it was being sold by a little ol' lady who really needed >the money, I wouldn't take advantage of her lack of knowledge of the value of the piece, but would buy it for five times >what she asked, and I'd still get a bargain. A year ago at an estate sale, I saw a smithsonite specimen for $20. that >was worth $200., of course I bought it for $20., the original owner had long since departed this world. What on earth does that have to do with fake auction offerings? > >Cheers, >Erich Kern >Murrieta, CA > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Earl Verbeek" >To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" >Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:19 AM >Subject: RE: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > >Another trick I've heard of is to put >it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high >the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >of value and doesn't cost too much. > >Yes, an effective trick, but an unethical one. That's not what Ebay is for, >and falsely raises the hopes of bidders who might really want the piece but >will never get it because of a reserve that is deliberately set way high to >test the market. Please don't do this. > >I know I'm in the minority here -- most of the advice you've been getting is >intended to maximize your return -- but there's the customer end to think >of, too. You've indicated you need the money, so in this case it appears >that maximizing your profit is in order, and you've been given some >suggestions on how to do that. In better times, however, one thing I've >done is to split the "winnings" with the customer. Here's an example: If >my total cost for a specimen were $60 but I know or suspect it's worth at >least $200, I'll sell it at a price midway between those two numbers: $130. >That way I make a good profit and the customer gets a good deal, so I've >created a win-win situation. However, I do this from the perspective of a >collector who has other ways to make a living. A mineral dealer cannot >operate like that, and I would never ask them to. > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From lanny at lrream.com Wed Mar 29 09:39:29 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Wed Mar 29 09:39:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I forgot about the state land, but in the area of Topaz Mtn., that is only section 16, of which only the NW corner is in Topaz Valley. It includes the south 1/3 of the east ridge and some of the ridge that makes up the south side of the valley, and all of the road and most of the valley floor. It also includes the knoll, so I guess the SLC club had that under a state lease, not a mining claim. That leaves almost all of the collecting area as BLM land: The SW corner, the west wall, Topaz Mtn., the area around the "V" notch and most of the east wall. Regards, Lanny On Mar 28, 2006, at 12:07 PM, Andrew Turner wrote: > I've visited Topaz Mountain (as well as the beryllium mine nearby and > Dugway) on several occassions. Not only is it some of the most > unusual rock in the world (topaz phyric rhyolite tuff where the topaz > formed by vapor phase crystallization), but it's probably the best > accessible place I've ever collected. As far as I know, Topaz > Mountain (the "cove" or front part of the Thomas Range) is owned by > the state of UT and is a protected rock collecting place. The state > purchased all the claims in the front in order to allow public access > and to keep it from being claimed privately (which is the case on the > back side). The Field Guide to Collecting at Topaz Mountain as well > as all the rockhounding in Utah books also indicate this. In fact, > there is a sign in Delta right before you turn onto the 60mi straight > road saying "Topaz Mountain Collecting Area." There are several signs > giving rules about not using motorized equipment and cleaning up > trashe, etc. at the base of the mountain. I'm sure there are a few > morons who don't obey by the rules, but I've never encountered anyone > disobeying them. Also, I'd think it'd be pretty difficult to use a > back hoe here considering the rock is insanely hard and the terrain is > incredibly steep. The best topaz is toward the top of the mountain, > and it's very had to even climb up that high let alone get a back hoe > there. Perhaps they were using equipment on the claims on the back > side. > > Andrew Turner > > Victorville, CA > > >> From: Lanny >> Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >> collectors" >> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >> collectors" >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn (Utah) backhoe digging? >> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 11:21:01 -0800 >> >> The BLM withdrew the valley from mineral entry many years ago (in the >> '70s I think). At the time, they did not do any claim >> adjudication/authentication and have had problems with old claims >> being "resurrected" and of course a Salt Lake club had a claim on the >> knob, of which another posts states that claim has been dropped. >> >> In the late '70s to early '80s, there was a group that had >> "resurrected" old claims on the SW corner of the valley and posted >> the area to keep people off. At that time, the BLM did a rather >> dismal job of handling the situation, but it slowly died on its own >> from lack of enough topaz for the claimants to make any money, or >> they just got tired of it. There may still be other claims in the >> valley, has anyone checked the records or asked the BLM? >> >> Regards, >> >> Lanny From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Mar 29 09:44:55 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Mar 29 09:44:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> What I said has nothing whatever to do with a fake auction offer. I agree with you that offering an item for sale with no intention to actually sell the item is despicable. My hat's off to the guy who reluctantly sold his prize azurite specimen because a buyer in effect, called his bluff, with cash yet. When this thread started, my impression was that testing the waters on ebay meant that the person offering the item would actually sell it if a buyer met the price. Not to do so is highly unethical, so we have no quarrel on that. Cheers, Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Balmer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:40 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 08:24:30 -0800, "Erich Kern" wrote: > > >Well, stripped of sentimentality, the reality is that this is how the marketplace sets price; i.e. what a buyer is >willing to pay for an item. And, as always, caveat emptor, "buyer beware". I see no ethics issue in trying to determine >market price through an e-bay auction; What we're talking about is not an auction, but a false offer. There's no issue if you intend to sell to the highest bidder. IMO, there *is* an issue if you are wasting everyone's time (and E-bay's resources) and have no intention of selling it. > after all, we're talking about mineral specimens, collectables, not a cure for >cancer. > >Putting the shoe on the other foot, if you saw something of value that was priced at a tenth of what it was worth to >you, would you not buy it on the spot? Speaking for myself, if it was being sold by a little ol' lady who really needed >the money, I wouldn't take advantage of her lack of knowledge of the value of the piece, but would buy it for five >times >what she asked, and I'd still get a bargain. A year ago at an estate sale, I saw a smithsonite specimen for $20. that >was worth $200., of course I bought it for $20., the original owner had long since departed this world. What on earth does that have to do with fake auction offerings? > >Cheers, >Erich Kern >Murrieta, CA > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Earl Verbeek" >To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" >Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:19 AM >Subject: RE: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > >Another trick I've heard of is to put >it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high >the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >of value and doesn't cost too much. > >Yes, an effective trick, but an unethical one. That's not what Ebay is for, >and falsely raises the hopes of bidders who might really want the piece but >will never get it because of a reserve that is deliberately set way high to >test the market. Please don't do this. > >I know I'm in the minority here -- most of the advice you've been getting is >intended to maximize your return -- but there's the customer end to think >of, too. You've indicated you need the money, so in this case it appears >that maximizing your profit is in order, and you've been given some >suggestions on how to do that. In better times, however, one thing I've >done is to split the "winnings" with the customer. Here's an example: If >my total cost for a specimen were $60 but I know or suspect it's worth at >least $200, I'll sell it at a price midway between those two numbers: $130. >That way I make a good profit and the customer gets a good deal, so I've >created a win-win situation. However, I do this from the perspective of a >collector who has other ways to make a living. A mineral dealer cannot >operate like that, and I would never ask them to. > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lanny at lrream.com Wed Mar 29 09:51:30 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Wed Mar 29 09:52:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn. In-Reply-To: <442A1A54.9030608@iglide.net> References: <200603290203.k2T237Pi020038@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <442A1A54.9030608@iglide.net> Message-ID: <3aeaf21959181e9cae736ca57a08d81b@lrream.com> Kelly, I am curious as to which claims on which bixbyite site are a problem to some people. Do you mean the Solar Wind claims, discovered, claimed and mined by John Holfert and partners recently, or the "original" area where John had a claim and produced the first large bixbyites in the 1970s. What problems and tactics are a problem? I've been going to the Thomas Range since the 1970s, have been invited to most of the mining claims by several claimants off and on over the years and like to know what's going on down there, but haven't been in contact with any mining claimants for about 8 years, so am in the dark on claim activities. It's about time I got back down there! Regards, Lanny On Mar 28, 2006, at 9:25 PM, JL Kelly wrote: > Nothing has changed at Topaz Mtn. I was there only last week. You > still can't use any kind of "machinery" blasting powder or power > equipment on the Mtn. Itself. There are private claims on the North > end of the Thomas range a couple that have really angered more than a > few people because of the tactics and attitude of the owner. This is > the area that the rather huge Bixbyite crystals are coming from. On > the south end of the range, as I said, the "Amphitheatre," the "Wall" > and the "Valley are still "hand tools only. Oh how I wish I could > take a jack hammer in with me some day. Then again, I've climbed that > mtn enough to know that I wouldn't want to lug a hammer up those > slopes. > There are private claims in the range just to the East of Topaz Mtn. > They are well marked and famous for some of the crystals that have > come from them as well as some of the garnets that have been found in > the area. > > Ya'll come to Ewe-Taw and we'll have a great time. > > Kelly > SLC > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From albalmer at att.net Wed Mar 29 10:02:34 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Mar 29 10:02:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <14466277.1143647567407.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <14466277.1143647567407.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3oil229l5aq5g4u8nk78tgrhgsv1egv3ji@4ax.com> On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:52:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00), John Teague wrote: >I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years >agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) >nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted >to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that >I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never >been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, >attention getting price on it . Kudos for having the integrity to sell it, painful though it was. Probably the "sold" sign is the best way. I know I've been annoyed by specimens that weren't marked at all - after finally getting the attention of the vendor who's busy socializing, he says, "Oh, that's not for sale, I just wanted to display it." -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From cjkuo at verizon.net Wed Mar 29 14:11:21 2006 From: cjkuo at verizon.net (Jimmy Kuo) Date: Wed Mar 29 14:11:27 2006 Subject: OT: Re: [Rockhounds] ADMIN: Bounce Messages and Phishing Message-ID: <31167271.216041143670281279.JavaMail.root@vms062.mailsrvcs.net> If you have an EBay or Paypal phishing email, you can FWD them to spoof@ebay.com (EBay owns Paypal). You will get an automated message telling you what you already know (that it's a spoof). But Ebay has an active team that closes down these sites so others who are less knowledgeable won't get hurt by them. Those of us who have fully protected machines or test machines, I go to the links to make sure it's still active before forwarding the emails. The latest large scale phishing attack (VERY LARGE SCALE) is against Chase. *ANYTHING* from Chase should be suspect now, although the most popular is a $20 Reward for your opinion (obviously you have to give them acct numbers for them to credit the $20). THEY ARE ALL FAKES. No financial institution is going to give you email notifications with URLs any more. They know they can't "help" train you to respond to phishing emails. Jimmy PS. Feel free to reply to me if you have questions. No need to reply to this email to the list. From julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com Wed Mar 29 17:17:40 2006 From: julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com (Julie Siebel) Date: Wed Mar 29 17:20:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> Hey, guys: It's time for my annual birthday week-long rockhounding trip...my bd is the 12th, and we usually include it on the trip, though we may be a few days late this year. Last year we went to the Succor Creek area (OR/ID border); other years we've gone to the Prineville area, the Oregon coast, etc. We're trying to decide where to go this year. We've talked about going to Montana again - the Crystal Park/Calvert Hill area - but I suspect that we are probably a bit early for that. I thought about central Washington, but it seems to me we've hit snow up there this early, as well. Anyone have any suggestions? We generally like to plant ourselves in a cheap hotel for a week and go out every day from there, so we're looking for an area with several places to visit within 15-100 miles and as little snow as possible. :-) Thanks for any help! Julie From jaybates at rcn.com Wed Mar 29 17:52:15 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Wed Mar 29 17:47:07 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder><003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <000501c6539c$92e93b40$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Because of the weather this year, I would consider heading south to Utah or Nevada. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Siebel" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:17 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? > Hey, guys: > > It's time for my annual birthday week-long rockhounding trip...my bd is the > 12th, and we usually include it on the trip, though we may be a few days > late this year. > > Last year we went to the Succor Creek area (OR/ID border); other years we've > gone to the Prineville area, the Oregon coast, etc. We're trying to decide > where to go this year. We've talked about going to Montana again - the > Crystal Park/Calvert Hill area - but I suspect that we are probably a bit > early for that. I thought about central Washington, but it seems to me we've > hit snow up there this early, as well. > > Anyone have any suggestions? We generally like to plant ourselves in a cheap > hotel for a week and go out every day from there, so we're looking for an > area with several places to visit within 15-100 miles and as little snow as > possible. :-) > > Thanks for any help! > > Julie > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Mar 29 18:44:08 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Mar 29 18:37:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <442B4475.532E@Tomaszewski.net> Julie, Have you considered collecting on the Big Island of Hawaii (and saying 'Hi' to Kitty and Bill)? I think it would be better than the Keewenaw Peninsula, that still has over three feet of snow on the ground. Kreigh Julie Siebel wrote: > > Hey, guys: > > It's time for my annual birthday week-long rockhounding trip...my bd is the > 12th, and we usually include it on the trip, though we may be a few days > late this year. > > Last year we went to the Succor Creek area (OR/ID border); other years we've > gone to the Prineville area, the Oregon coast, etc. We're trying to decide > where to go this year. We've talked about going to Montana again - the > Crystal Park/Calvert Hill area - but I suspect that we are probably a bit > early for that. I thought about central Washington, but it seems to me we've > hit snow up there this early, as well. > > Anyone have any suggestions? We generally like to plant ourselves in a cheap > hotel for a week and go out every day from there, so we're looking for an > area with several places to visit within 15-100 miles and as little snow as > possible. :-) > > Thanks for any help! > > Julie From julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com Wed Mar 29 18:44:24 2006 From: julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com (Julie Siebel) Date: Wed Mar 29 18:46:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder><010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> <442B4475.532E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <0dce01c653a3$df7d18d0$0200a8c0@warren> Kreigh...CHEAP hotel...cheap...partly because we usually bring the dogs! lol Ahh, Keewenaw - my first major rockhounding experience, when I had NO idea, NO tools, etc. lol - some day "I'll be baaaahck" Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? > Julie, > > Have you considered collecting on the Big Island of Hawaii (and saying > 'Hi' to Kitty and Bill)? I think it would be better than the Keewenaw > Peninsula, that still has over three feet of snow on the ground. > > Kreigh > From rockhounds at adelphia.net Wed Mar 29 19:49:15 2006 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (Kelly Hanson) Date: Wed Mar 29 19:43:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? In-Reply-To: <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <001001c653ac$eb0213a0$3c261643@KellyHanson> Saddle Mountain for Petrified wood was good last Saturday. Some members found a log in the 1000s of pounds! We only had a bucket of Picture wood for us though. The digging was real good as the ground had some moisture in it. Not sure what in nearby. There is a Cheap motel in Vantage we have stayed at before. Kelly H -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Julie Siebel Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:18 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? Hey, guys: It's time for my annual birthday week-long rockhounding trip...my bd is the 12th, and we usually include it on the trip, though we may be a few days late this year. Last year we went to the Succor Creek area (OR/ID border); other years we've gone to the Prineville area, the Oregon coast, etc. We're trying to decide where to go this year. We've talked about going to Montana again - the Crystal Park/Calvert Hill area - but I suspect that we are probably a bit early for that. I thought about central Washington, but it seems to me we've hit snow up there this early, as well. Anyone have any suggestions? We generally like to plant ourselves in a cheap hotel for a week and go out every day from there, so we're looking for an area with several places to visit within 15-100 miles and as little snow as possible. :-) Thanks for any help! Julie _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com Wed Mar 29 19:52:55 2006 From: julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com (Julie Siebel) Date: Wed Mar 29 19:55:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another BD question: NON-mapping GPS... Message-ID: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> Hello again! I usually receive some sort of rockhounding gift along with our trip (thanks, buddy!). Last year it was a digital camera. This year, we're going to replace my old yellow generic Garmin eTrex GPS. We got this when I was initially looking into GPSs for purchase, because I wasn't sure I'd use it and I wasn't sure what kind of mapping I needed. Now it is so old that the glue for the rubber gasket around the exterior has given out and slides all around - GREAT excuse for a new GPS. On reviewing my use of my basic eTrex, I've decided the only new features I *really* want are a true altimeter and compass - we have used Street Atlas and Delorme Topo on a regular basis for a while now, and John's computer died so we got him a laptop, so map-wise, we can just use the laptop. To be honest, I mainly use the the GPS because I am directionally impaired, i.e. I get lost easily...John bought me a coach's whistle so I can let him know where I am, if I've found something cool, or I am in trouble. GPS-wise, I just need something simple like my eTrex to mark digging sites and stuff, only with a compass and altimeter. I'm currently looking at the Garmin Summit, which has all the very basic features of the eTrex, plus an actual altimeter and a digital compass - runs around 150-190 dollars. Any other suggestions? Julie P.S. In talking to John about GPS technology, he pointed out that it had only failed us ONCE. Before we moved to Idaho this time, we were here on a visit and decided to drop by Mica Mountain for the first time on our way home. I normally waypoint the car in situations like this, but I turned on the GPS at the last minute, and didn't have satellite lock. So, since I was "only going a few feet from the car" I left the GPS on the car roof. It turns out that we weren't actually AT the pits of Mica Mountain (which we know very well now - they're pretty obvious once you've ssen them) we both wandered away...and got LOST. Thank God I had the whistle or we may never have found each other :-) It took about 3 hours to find our way back from the 150 yards we'd each moved from the car. I ALWAYS waypoint the car before going hunting now, even if I think it's a matter of 20 feet! jcls --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Mar 29 21:05:43 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Mar 29 20:59:07 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Mineral References: Message-ID: <442B6590.2EE3@Tomaszewski.net> Berj, My understanding is that the collectors immediately realized they had something unusual, but that they did not realize just how unusual it was until they got it back to the lab. It underscores the need to research the locality prior to collecting so you can recognise somethihg unexpected. Kreigh Berj N. Ensanian wrote: > > Kreigh > > Were you able to get any sense of the moment of discovery - i.e. did the > discoverer immediately realize it was a new mineral, or did the realization > come later when the collected specimens were more closely examined back in > the lab? Someone, whoever labeled it new mineral, must be the key person??? > > Berj > > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New Mineral > >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:58:59 -0500 > > > >I did some asking around and learned a little more about the new > >mineral. I've exchanged email with local one of the two > >collectors/researchers (the other is at NAU) to get some of this > >information. > > > >Five specimens were recovered from a single pocket in a zone > >(cyanotrichite to limestone) only a few feet across. The new mineral is > >a cobalt-copper arsenious crust on/replacing cyanotrichite. The specimen > >in the case was, by far, the best of the five. > > > >Subsequent excavations revealed nothing further. Consider the location > >to be closed to all but an occasional researcher (with a government > >issued collecting permit). Publication will probably be delayed for a > >while. > > > >Most of two of the specimens have been sacrificed to science (including > >xray and synchrotron) in working out the chemistry and physical > >structure that is needed to prove you have a new mineral. The new > >mineral is considered amorphous. > > > >Kreigh > > > > > >Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > > > I was out at Grand Valley State University today for the Regional > > > Science Olympiad competition with the middle school team I help coach. > > > Our only medal was first place in the bottle rocket competition. > > > > > > While I was waiting in the Science Building for one of the closed events > > > to finish I passed my time by looking thru the display cabinets in the > > > lobby placed by the Geology department. > > > > > > I found a pretty pink specimen that looked like cobaltian calcite (or > > > very pink smithsonite) with a patch of black acicular needles in the > > > middle that looked almost like fur. It was labeled "New Mineral" and > > > noted it was discovered during a recent department field trip. > > > > > > I found some of the geology students and asked them for details; they > > > got as excited as I was because they had not noticed it either. And it > > > wasn't hard to find the geology students because the Geology Club had > > > four tables selling specimens (picked up at Tucson) as a fundraiser for > > > the Club. > > > > > > BTW, going thru their stuff from Tucson I found two new mineral species > > > for my collection (from Mont St. Hilaire). > > > > > > It is a good day when you find a new mineral. > > > > > > Kreigh From ki3u at hotmail.com Wed Mar 29 21:59:15 2006 From: ki3u at hotmail.com (Berj N. Ensanian) Date: Wed Mar 29 21:59:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Mineral In-Reply-To: <442B6590.2EE3@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Agreed. But actually what I was fishing for was an anecdote about the thrill, the excitement of discovering a new mineral - don't we all dream of it now and then? I'd like to read some such anecdotes. I hope we get some on the list. This is the absolute truth without any exaggerations: About twenty-five years ago I was fossil hunting in a favorite spot on a ridge that also had nice quartz. I was perched on a particularly precarious little perch with a very steep drop-off, so I had to be very careful. So I chipped out a nice piece of Devonian with some evidence of braychiopods. I decided I wanted to lighten my load, so I decided to break the rock into the smallest piece that still had the brach. When I hammered it, it split in two, exposing the interior middle. And there inside, perfectly preserved was the actual animal - a round, shelled creature, yellowish-brown in color. I was stunned! It literally looked like all I had to do was place it in a terarium and it would awaken back to life. I was so shaking with excitement that I started losing my balance, and while trying to secure myself - it was a dangerous spot - you guessed it - the little creature slipped out of my hand and disappeared down below into the forest. It's one of those might-have-been things that figures heavily in my rockhounding life. But the part of it that I didn't lose, is the knowledge that inside some of these four hunded million year or so old rocks, there are entombed the actual animals. Berj >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New Mineral >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 00:05:43 -0500 > >Berj, > >My understanding is that the collectors immediately realized they had >something unusual, but that they did not realize just how unusual it was >until they got it back to the lab. > >It underscores the need to research the locality prior to collecting so >you can recognise somethihg unexpected. > >Kreigh > > > > > >Berj N. Ensanian wrote: > > > > Kreigh > > > > Were you able to get any sense of the moment of discovery - i.e. did the > > discoverer immediately realize it was a new mineral, or did the >realization > > come later when the collected specimens were more closely examined back >in > > the lab? Someone, whoever labeled it new mineral, must be the key >person??? > > > > Berj > > > > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > > >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > >collectors" > > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > >collectors" > > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] New Mineral > > >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 21:58:59 -0500 > > > > > >I did some asking around and learned a little more about the new > > >mineral. I've exchanged email with local one of the two > > >collectors/researchers (the other is at NAU) to get some of this > > >information. > > > > > >Five specimens were recovered from a single pocket in a zone > > >(cyanotrichite to limestone) only a few feet across. The new mineral is > > >a cobalt-copper arsenious crust on/replacing cyanotrichite. The >specimen > > >in the case was, by far, the best of the five. > > > > > >Subsequent excavations revealed nothing further. Consider the location > > >to be closed to all but an occasional researcher (with a government > > >issued collecting permit). Publication will probably be delayed for a > > >while. > > > > > >Most of two of the specimens have been sacrificed to science (including > > >xray and synchrotron) in working out the chemistry and physical > > >structure that is needed to prove you have a new mineral. The new > > >mineral is considered amorphous. > > > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > >Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > > > > > I was out at Grand Valley State University today for the Regional > > > > Science Olympiad competition with the middle school team I help >coach. > > > > Our only medal was first place in the bottle rocket competition. > > > > > > > > While I was waiting in the Science Building for one of the closed >events > > > > to finish I passed my time by looking thru the display cabinets in >the > > > > lobby placed by the Geology department. > > > > > > > > I found a pretty pink specimen that looked like cobaltian calcite >(or > > > > very pink smithsonite) with a patch of black acicular needles in the > > > > middle that looked almost like fur. It was labeled "New Mineral" and > > > > noted it was discovered during a recent department field trip. > > > > > > > > I found some of the geology students and asked them for details; >they > > > > got as excited as I was because they had not noticed it either. And >it > > > > wasn't hard to find the geology students because the Geology Club >had > > > > four tables selling specimens (picked up at Tucson) as a fundraiser >for > > > > the Club. > > > > > > > > BTW, going thru their stuff from Tucson I found two new mineral >species > > > > for my collection (from Mont St. Hilaire). > > > > > > > > It is a good day when you find a new mineral. > > > > > > > > Kreigh > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From afox at panix.com Wed Mar 29 23:48:47 2006 From: afox at panix.com (Aaron Fox) Date: Wed Mar 29 23:48:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn. In-Reply-To: <442A1A54.9030608@iglide.net> References: <200603290203.k2T237Pi020038@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <442A1A54.9030608@iglide.net> Message-ID: > Nothing has changed at Topaz Mtn. I was there only last week. You still > can't use any kind of "machinery" blasting powder or power equipment on the > Mtn. Itself. There are private claims on the North end of the Thomas range a Silly question, but has anyone ever taken a slide hammer out there, with a chisel bit. The last time I was at Topaz Mountain (gosh, probably six or seven years ago), I was dying to have one, but I wasn't sure if it was verbotten or not. a. -- afox at panix dot com || http://www.panix.com/~afox Go: It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye... From lehkerd at gvsu.edu Thu Mar 30 05:49:50 2006 From: lehkerd at gvsu.edu (David Lehker) Date: Thu Mar 30 05:50:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Chicago to Mt. Ida Message-ID: Another snowbird looking for cheap hotels and interesting stops. My wife and I are leaving from Chicago next Monday and have about a week of spring break to sniff about and explore. We thought we would head towards the Mt. Ida area (suggestions on specific sites welcome), but would like to make some stops on the way down. We particularly like exploring for minerals and agate, but are open for anything. Any interesting mine dumps or other types of locations in Illinois or Missouri or northern Arkansas? Thanks in advance for any ideas. Dave David Lehker, MSW, CSW Grand Valley State University School of Social Work DeVos Center, 401 W Fulton Grand Rapids Michigan 49504 616-331-6597 Fax - 616-331-6570 lehkerd@gvsu.edu From libawc at emory.edu Thu Mar 30 06:31:49 2006 From: libawc at emory.edu (Anita D. Westlake) Date: Thu Mar 30 06:31:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens In-Reply-To: <14466277.1143647567407.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.eart hlink.net> Message-ID: <00d501c65406$ae8b4ea0$14bf8caa@genlibad.library.emory.edu> Sorry to hear about your loss! I think we've all had situations like that where we could kick ourselves. Mine was: I found a beautiful handmade knife at a gun and knife show. The handle was made from a fossilized jawbone of a small reptile, with all the teeth still intact. I forget what the blade was made out of, but the handle was simply incredible. It was being sold by the artist for only $250. I walked away from it, and have thought about it often over the years. I would kick myself, but I haven't learned how to bend my legs that way. Anita -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of John Teague Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:53 AM To: alremovebalmerthis@att.net; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" they get. I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've never been able to buy it back! As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my friends more carefully! I would still love to have that azurite back! John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com -----Original Message----- >From: Al Balmer >Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > >On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" > wrote: > >>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how high >>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >>of value and doesn't cost too much. > >Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >like this. > >-- >Al Balmer >Sun City, AZ > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jaybates at rcn.com Thu Mar 30 08:33:34 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Thu Mar 30 08:28:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Monte Cristo Range in Nevada proposed as a State Park References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder><003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <002401c65417$b1095e40$6401a8c0@cable.rcn.com> This is one of the best areas in Nevada for collecting all sorts of material. If you are interested you can write to the Nevada Parks Department, who don't want it, or the BLM. http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20060325/REGION/103250083 Jay > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rick.trapp at azgs.az.gov Thu Mar 30 09:40:18 2006 From: rick.trapp at azgs.az.gov (Richard Trapp) Date: Thu Mar 30 09:33:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another BD question: NON-mapping GPS... In-Reply-To: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <442C1802.8060800@azgs.az.gov> Julie, I would highly recommend this site http://gpsinformation.net/ a wealth of information. the eTrex Summit is reviewed, although the review is a few years old. Just as an aside, while the eTrex's do a pretty good job, they usually get panned for their lack of coverage in conditions that are anything less than ideal - canyons, cities, tree cover, etc. Julie Siebel wrote: >Hello again! > >I usually receive some sort of rockhounding gift along with our trip (thanks, buddy!). Last year it was a digital camera. > >This year, we're going to replace my old yellow generic Garmin eTrex GPS. We got this when I was initially looking into GPSs for purchase, because I wasn't sure I'd use it and I wasn't sure what kind of mapping I needed. Now it is so old that the glue for the rubber gasket around the exterior has given out and slides all around - GREAT excuse for a new GPS. > >On reviewing my use of my basic eTrex, I've decided the only new features I *really* want are a true altimeter and compass - we have used Street Atlas and Delorme Topo on a regular basis for a while now, and John's computer died so we got him a laptop, so map-wise, we can just use the laptop. > >To be honest, I mainly use the the GPS because I am directionally impaired, i.e. I get lost easily...John bought me a coach's whistle so I can let him know where I am, if I've found something cool, or I am in trouble. GPS-wise, I just need something simple like my eTrex to mark digging sites and stuff, only with a compass and altimeter. > >I'm currently looking at the Garmin Summit, which has all the very basic features of the eTrex, plus an actual altimeter and a digital compass - runs around 150-190 dollars. > >Any other suggestions? > >Julie > >P.S. In talking to John about GPS technology, he pointed out that it had only failed us ONCE. Before we moved to Idaho this time, we were here on a visit and decided to drop by Mica Mountain for the first time on our way home. I normally waypoint the car in situations like this, but I turned on the GPS at the last minute, and didn't have satellite lock. So, since I was "only going a few feet from the car" I left the GPS on the car roof. It turns out that we weren't actually AT the pits of Mica Mountain (which we know very well now - they're pretty obvious once you've ssen them) we both wandered away...and got LOST. Thank God I had the whistle or we may never have found each other :-) It took about 3 hours to find our way back from the 150 yards we'd each moved from the car. I ALWAYS waypoint the car before going hunting now, even if I think it's a matter of 20 feet! > >jcls > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > -- Rick Trapp Geologist/IT Manager, Arizona Geological Survey rick.trapp@azgs.az.gov From SHMM at sussexonline.com Thu Mar 30 10:03:46 2006 From: SHMM at sussexonline.com (Earl Verbeek) Date: Thu Mar 30 10:03:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another BD question: NON-mapping GPS... In-Reply-To: <442C1802.8060800@azgs.az.gov> Message-ID: <000401c65424$4a8083d0$f1681540@D3JM7W21> Hi Julie, I forget which model it is, but some of the Garmin GPS units function as two-way radios too, so you can keep in touch with your husband over long distances without that whistle. That way you can communicate everything you want to, and don't have to wonder what a whistle means -- "I'm in trouble" versus "Hey, I found something great over here!". Cheers- Earl ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@sussexonline.com From hwmroch at comcast.net Wed Mar 29 14:12:31 2006 From: hwmroch at comcast.net (hwmroch@comcast.net) Date: Thu Mar 30 10:06:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn and The Cove Message-ID: <032920062212.12098.442B064F000753C500002F422206424613080C019D039908@comcast.net> Feel free to pass this on.... If you understand anything about public lands in Utah there are basically federal lands and state lease lands. These are not set aside in huge tracts but rather in small plots scattered everywhere. If you can read a topo map you will see them quite obviously. I noticed the spray painted area last year when I visited. The land with the spray painting on the rocks and with obvious blasting and equipment usage in The Cove is a STATE LEASE. The signage there is correct because state lease lands are part of the educational trust lands with fees set aside for the education system and the fees generated are royalties to the state. Therefore any removal of any material from the STATE LEASE lands is legally treated or atleast can be treated as THEFT. You are literally stealing from the state of Utah and the leaseholder who pays them a royalty. Most of The Cove is on BLM administered land but there are active mining claims throughout the Thomas Range. As for the Solar Wind Claims they are on BLM lands and are under active claim. The Maynard Topaz Claims are under State Lease lands and are also under active claim. Removal of any material from either of these claims is illegal and if the claimholders catch you there you will as a minimum be asked to leave but that is only if you are polite. If not you might get videotaped or photogrpahed and eventually get a friendly call from the sheriffs department. Laws vary from state to state but if you want to test it out in a particular one go ahead. In Nevada for example removal of any minerals without the permission of the claimholder is a felony. If that mineral is worth the risk and if you seek a felony conviction on your resume' plod on. Regarding state lease lands you face a twofold threat - the claimholders can sue you personally and the state can also join in (by the claimholder simply providing the proof) and you can be charged with theft. I am sure the state lawyers will find a few more things to throw at your resume' on top of the theft. Walter Mroch Gem and Mineral Exploration Co (proprietor) Utah Mineral and Fossil (partner) Worldwide Minerals (partner) From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Thu Mar 30 10:14:25 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Thu Mar 30 10:16:50 2006 Subject: [ADMIN] Re: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn and The Cove References: <032920062212.12098.442B064F000753C500002F422206424613080C019D039908@comcast.net> Message-ID: <003701c65425$cac99710$0400a8c0@Notebook> Please note that Walter is not a List member so you may want to respond off-List. John Admin Team ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn and The Cove > Feel free to pass this on.... > Walter Mroch > Gem and Mineral Exploration Co (proprietor) > Utah Mineral and Fossil (partner) > Worldwide Minerals (partner) From julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com Thu Mar 30 10:15:01 2006 From: julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com (Julie Siebel) Date: Thu Mar 30 10:17:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another BD question: NON-mapping GPS... References: <000401c65424$4a8083d0$f1681540@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <005601c65425$e0b5ece0$0200a8c0@warren> Ahhh, Rinos...I looked them up on Garmin's site last night, and retail price was 500+ EACH... They are on my wish list, and have been since BEFORE they came out... Regarding whistles - 3 always means help! (As in "I was so into looking for vugs that I didn't realize how far I'd climbed up this almost-cliff and now I can't get down!" Only had to use this a couple of times so far.) 1 whistle is "Hey!" - John can wolf whistle so he whistles back. If I keep doing short single whistles it means I'm trying to track him down. 1 HEY whistle, followed by a long whistle means I'm going back to the car. 1 HEY whistle, followed by two short blasts is "Oh my gosh you've got to come here and see this incredible spray of stilbite!" or whatever. Some day we will have Rinos - the current ones work 14 miles apart or something. Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl Verbeek" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 10:03 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Another BD question: NON-mapping GPS... > Hi Julie, > > I forget which model it is, but some of the Garmin GPS units function as > two-way radios too, so you can keep in touch with your husband over long > distances without that whistle. That way you can communicate everything > you > want to, and don't have to wonder what a whistle means -- "I'm in trouble" > versus "Hey, I found something great over here!". > > Cheers- Earl > > ----------------------------------- > Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist > Sterling Hill Mining Museum > 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 > 973-209-7212 > shmm@sussexonline.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lanny at lrream.com Thu Mar 30 11:26:49 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Mar 30 11:27:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mid April trip - WA, OR, ID, or MT? In-Reply-To: <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> References: <000001c6532a$fd0bd220$42691540@D3JM7W21><000f01c6534d$427c7e00$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <003f01c65358$7e880a30$ee91b2d1@TheBlackAdder> <010a01c65397$c17a1b50$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <7ee43248a52e205964f42b2c5333e036@lrream.com> Hi Julie, You're are thinking right, should be too much snow for Crystal Park or Calvert Hill. I hope to be heading over to Montana about the same time, but am going to check out old mines north of Dillon, east of Melrose. The foothills there are probably clear of snow already (in fact they were clear on my return from Tucson). Sorry, I can't think of any area accessible this early in the year that wouldn't be anything but exploration of mines with the potential of micro minerals. Like others suggested head south, perhaps the Thomas Range and Topaz Mtn. Regards, Lanny On Mar 29, 2006, at 5:17 PM, Julie Siebel wrote: > Hey, guys: > > It's time for my annual birthday week-long rockhounding trip...my bd > is the 12th, and we usually include it on the trip, though we may be a > few days late this year. > > Last year we went to the Succor Creek area (OR/ID border); other years > we've gone to the Prineville area, the Oregon coast, etc. We're trying > to decide where to go this year. We've talked about going to Montana > again - the Crystal Park/Calvert Hill area - but I suspect that we are > probably a bit early for that. I thought about central Washington, but > it seems to me we've hit snow up there this early, as well. > > Anyone have any suggestions? We generally like to plant ourselves in a > cheap hotel for a week and go out every day from there, so we're > looking for an area with several places to visit within 15-100 miles > and as little snow as possible. :-) > > Thanks for any help! > > Julie > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From lanny at lrream.com Thu Mar 30 11:34:35 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Mar 30 11:35:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another BD question: NON-mapping GPS... In-Reply-To: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: Hi Julie, You may want to really consider a GPS with mapping capability. I had a Summit, and liked it very much; that's a good way to go if you absolutely don't want to spend the money for one with maps. An Etrex Vista is only $55 more than a Summit, same unit, only with the capability to load maps. Once you start using maps, you will find them handy. They are also a great toy, it's fun to drive down the highway or mountain road and watch the pointer showing where you are (you can also tell John he missed the turnoff)! Not as much fun as drinking a cold beer in the shade after several hours of collecting, but you are not supposed to do that in a moving vehicle! Regards, Lanny On Mar 29, 2006, at 7:52 PM, Julie Siebel wrote: > Hello again! > > I usually receive some sort of rockhounding gift along with our trip > (thanks, buddy!). Last year it was a digital camera. > > This year, we're going to replace my old yellow generic Garmin eTrex > GPS. We got this when I was initially looking into GPSs for purchase, > because I wasn't sure I'd use it and I wasn't sure what kind of > mapping I needed. Now it is so old that the glue for the rubber gasket > around the exterior has given out and slides all around - GREAT excuse > for a new GPS. > > On reviewing my use of my basic eTrex, I've decided the only new > features I *really* want are a true altimeter and compass - we have > used Street Atlas and Delorme Topo on a regular basis for a while now, > and John's computer died so we got him a laptop, so map-wise, we can > just use the laptop. > > To be honest, I mainly use the the GPS because I am directionally > impaired, i.e. I get lost easily...John bought me a coach's whistle so > I can let him know where I am, if I've found something cool, or I am > in trouble. GPS-wise, I just need something simple like my eTrex to > mark digging sites and stuff, only with a compass and altimeter. > > I'm currently looking at the Garmin Summit, which has all the very > basic features of the eTrex, plus an actual altimeter and a digital > compass - runs around 150-190 dollars. > > Any other suggestions? > > Julie > > P.S. In talking to John about GPS technology, he pointed out that it > had only failed us ONCE. Before we moved to Idaho this time, we were > here on a visit and decided to drop by Mica Mountain for the first > time on our way home. I normally waypoint the car in situations like > this, but I turned on the GPS at the last minute, and didn't have > satellite lock. So, since I was "only going a few feet from the car" I > left the GPS on the car roof. It turns out that we weren't actually AT > the pits of Mica Mountain (which we know very well now - they're > pretty obvious once you've ssen them) we both wandered away...and got > LOST. Thank God I had the whistle or we may never have found each > other :-) It took about 3 hours to find our way back from the 150 > yards we'd each moved from the car. I ALWAYS waypoint the car before > going hunting now, even if I think it's a matter of 20 feet! > > jcls > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From bobl at peaktopeak.com Thu Mar 30 15:23:13 2006 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Thu Mar 30 15:23:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn and The Cove In-Reply-To: <032920062212.12098.442B064F000753C500002F422206424613080C019D039908@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200603302323.k2UNNB3g016401@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi Walter and others, Thanks for all of the responses. I now know much more about this than a week ago. :-) Regards, Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of hwmroch@comcast.net Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:13 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Cc: mjenkins4@sbcglobal.net; rico@ricosweb.com; lanny@lrream.com; efkern@earthlink.net Subject: [Rockhounds] Topaz Mtn and The Cove Feel free to pass this on.... If you understand anything about public lands in Utah there are basically federal lands and state lease lands. These are not set aside in huge tracts but rather in small plots scattered everywhere. If you can read a topo map you will see them quite obviously. I noticed the spray painted area last year when I visited. The land with the spray painting on the rocks and with obvious blasting and equipment usage in The Cove is a STATE LEASE. The signage there is correct because state lease lands are part of the educational trust lands with fees set aside for the education system and the fees generated are royalties to the state. Therefore any removal of any material from the STATE LEASE lands is legally treated or atleast can be treated as THEFT. You are literally stealing from the state of Utah and the leaseholder who pays them a royalty. Most of The Cove is on BLM administered land but there are active mining claims throughout the Thomas Range. As for the Solar Wind Claims they are on BLM lands and are under active claim. The Maynard Topaz Claims are under State Lease lands and are also under active claim. Removal of any material from either of these claims is illegal and if the claimholders catch you there you will as a minimum be asked to leave but that is only if you are polite. If not you might get videotaped or photogrpahed and eventually get a friendly call from the sheriffs department. Laws vary from state to state but if you want to test it out in a particular one go ahead. In Nevada for example removal of any minerals without the permission of the claimholder is a felony. If that mineral is worth the risk and if you seek a felony conviction on your resume' plod on. Regarding state lease lands you face a twofold threat - the claimholders can sue you personally and the state can also join in (by the claimholder simply providing the proof) and you can be charged with theft. I am sure the state lawyers will find a few more things to throw at your resume' on top of the theft. Walter Mroch Gem and Mineral Exploration Co (proprietor) Utah Mineral and Fossil (partner) Worldwide Minerals (partner) _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From geenet2 at mchsi.com Thu Mar 30 16:36:14 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Thu Mar 30 16:36:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Speaking of GPS units and Delorme's Streets and Topo....got a question about a problem we're having. We bought a Garmin GPSMap 76C and Topo 5 from Delorme. The first time we got on the road, and tried to track with the GPS in Topo, it was the devil to get it working with the software. Even after looking up third party setting in Topo it didn't work, until I must have gotten the right combination of powering up the laptop, the GPS, and Topo in the right order, or maybe I pushed the button with the right finger that time, I dunno...but I got it working halfway to Orlando. Then we bought Delorme Streets....couldn't get it working at first until I found the right settings on the Garmin website. So last week we took all the equipment with us to play with in the car on our way to our daughter's house. Fired up Streets and it worked fine. I started Topo 5 too just to check out some topography, then decided to switch the GPS from Streets to Topo. Fours hours of fiddling with settings and I could never get Topo 5 to track with the GPS. It worked with Streets but not with Topo 5. Anybody have any ideas why, or what the heck is going on???? GPS challenged, Jeanette From tim at orerockon.com Thu Mar 30 18:15:38 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Mar 30 18:15:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question In-Reply-To: <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> I don't have a solution for you that involves any DeLorme product, sorry. FWIW DeLorme has a bad reputation vis-a-vis Garmin GPSs. Mapsource comes with the 76c, and works perfectly with it. I don't know how it compares to DeLorme software, but it suits my purposes just fine when used with my Garmin GPS V. I got the City Select upgrade and the roads are extremely detailed in all North American cities, which is pretty impressive considering that my sisters' condo development in Whistler BC is only a couple years old and yet the 500' long dead end street is in City Select 2005. I have never had a problem getting Mapsource/City Select and the GPS V to work together. I use AllTopo Maps for tracking with my GPS when I want topographic detail, since it uses the latest USGS 7.5' & 15' maps as they are released, and all sorts of other state & BLM maps, but this may be a little expensive for most people ($80-$98 per state). At 04:36 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote: >Speaking of GPS units and Delorme's Streets and Topo....got a >question about a problem we're having. We bought a Garmin GPSMap >76C and Topo 5 from Delorme. The first time we got on the road, and >tried to track with the GPS in Topo, it was the devil to get it >working with the software. Even after looking up third party >setting in Topo it didn't work, until I must have gotten the right >combination of powering up the laptop, the GPS, and Topo in the >right order, or maybe I pushed the button with the right finger that >time, I dunno...but I got it working halfway to Orlando. Then we >bought Delorme Streets....couldn't get it working at first until I >found the right settings on the Garmin website. So last week we took >all the equipment with us to play with in the car on our way to our >daughter's house. Fired up Streets and it worked fine. I started >Topo 5 too just to check out some topography, then decided to switch >the GPS from Streets to Topo. Fours hours of fiddling with >settings and I could never get Topo 5 to track with the GPS. It >worked with Streets but not with Topo 5. Anybody have any ideas >why, or what the heck is going on???? >GPS challenged, >Jeanette Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From geenet2 at mchsi.com Thu Mar 30 20:25:06 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Thu Mar 30 20:25:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren><000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <005e01c6547b$16c4baa0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> They sure haven't made it easy that's for sure. The maps that came with the GPS suck, I guess that's so you will want to upgrade. Jeanette From: "Tim Fisher" >I don't have a solution for you that involves any DeLorme product, sorry. >FWIW DeLorme has a bad reputation vis-a-vis Garmin GPSs. From codeburner at gmail.com Fri Mar 31 04:39:11 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Mar 31 04:39:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: I have used the DeLorme software with a gps for several years and have never had a problem, but that might be because I use the earthmate gps that they sell. LOL. The route finding algorithm DeLorme uses in the back country stinks. We were out in New Mexico and the path it picked led us down a series of smaller and smaller roadways until we were on a dirt road and then it indicated a turn onto a two track, and one in poor condition at that. This was supposed to be a route from Carlsbad to Silver City. And then it did the same thing a couple of times in SE Utah. BK On 3/30/06, Tim Fisher wrote: > > I don't have a solution for you that involves any DeLorme product, > sorry. FWIW DeLorme has a bad reputation vis-a-vis Garmin GPSs. > Mapsource comes with the 76c, and works perfectly with it. I don't > know how it compares to DeLorme software, but it suits my purposes > just fine when used with my Garmin GPS V. I got the City Select > upgrade and the roads are extremely detailed in all North American > cities, which is pretty impressive considering that my sisters' condo > development in Whistler BC is only a couple years old and yet the > 500' long dead end street is in City Select 2005. I have never had a > problem getting Mapsource/City Select and the GPS V to work together. > I use AllTopo Maps for tracking with my GPS when I want topographic > detail, since it uses the latest USGS 7.5' & 15' maps as they are > released, and all sorts of other state & BLM maps, but this may be a > little expensive for most people ($80-$98 per state). > > At 04:36 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote: > >Speaking of GPS units and Delorme's Streets and Topo....got a > >question about a problem we're having. We bought a Garmin GPSMap > >76C and Topo 5 from Delorme. The first time we got on the road, and > >tried to track with the GPS in Topo, it was the devil to get it > >working with the software. Even after looking up third party > >setting in Topo it didn't work, until I must have gotten the right > >combination of powering up the laptop, the GPS, and Topo in the > >right order, or maybe I pushed the button with the right finger that > >time, I dunno...but I got it working halfway to Orlando. Then we > >bought Delorme Streets....couldn't get it working at first until I > >found the right settings on the Garmin website. So last week we took > >all the equipment with us to play with in the car on our way to our > >daughter's house. Fired up Streets and it worked fine. I started > >Topo 5 too just to check out some topography, then decided to switch > >the GPS from Streets to Topo. Fours hours of fiddling with > >settings and I could never get Topo 5 to track with the GPS. It > >worked with Streets but not with Topo 5. Anybody have any ideas > >why, or what the heck is going on???? > >GPS challenged, > >Jeanette > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 31 06:03:51 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 31 06:05:00 2006 Subject: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <8C820CDAC48BFD2-1F94-8CE@FWM-D33.sysops.aol.com><00ad01c652bc$f5aeca00$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <001701c654cb$f09293b0$6400a8c0@hppav> To say nothing of the fact that a serious proportion of bidders now use electronic sniping systems. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Balmer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:13 AM Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" > wrote: > >>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how >>high >>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a test >>of value and doesn't cost too much. > > Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think > like this. > > -- > Al Balmer > Sun City, AZ > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 31 06:08:40 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 31 06:09:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <14466277.1143647567407.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002101c654cc$9d04b1f0$6400a8c0@hppav> John: I think most dealers, myself included, have priced a specimen beyond reasonable to attract attention to a display in the hope of selling others.... and ended up selling the attention getter. I think this demonstrates that a truly spectacular specimen is often difficult to put a price on, which was Dave's original dilemma. I'm with you. I'm a man of my word and don't back out of a deal, provided agreed to terms are being met. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Teague" To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high > price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" > they get. > > I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years > agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) > nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted > to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that > I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never > been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, > attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on > God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two > hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a > customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now > what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" > deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to > do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or > check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out > by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it > again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I > had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a > decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money > but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've > never been able to buy it back! > > As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the > Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a > slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen > but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. > Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) > times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take > it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that > I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my > friends more carefully! > > I would still love to have that azurite back! > > John Teague > Volunteer Gems > Knoxville, Tennessee > http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Al Balmer >>Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >>To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >> >>Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >> >>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" >> wrote: >> >>>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how >>>high >>>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a >>>test >>>of value and doesn't cost too much. >> >>Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >>like this. >> >>-- >>Al Balmer >>Sun City, AZ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From volgems at icx.net Fri Mar 31 07:33:03 2006 From: volgems at icx.net (John Teague) Date: Fri Mar 31 07:34:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens Message-ID: <32307157.1143819183324.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Gene ... and the list, Bottom line to all this is that a specimen is really only worth what a buyer is WILLING to pay! All the prices that we dealers place on specimens are totally subjective. It is our opinion as to what it is worth. To me, this is the hardest part of being a "dealer"! I know a big-time "wholesale" dealer (one that I do quite a bit of business with each year) whose wife told me (with him out of earshot!) that she has to "rein him in" when he is pricing a particular species. She said it is his "favorite" and he really tends to overprice them! At shows, I've had one customer tell me that a certain specimen was really a great price and later another customer comment on the fact that I must "really like" that same specimen (same specimen, same show ... different customers/opinions). One felt that it was underpriced, the other overpriced. Which was correct? BOTH! Each had the "correct" opinion based on their experience, likes, pocketbooks, etc. John Teague Volunteer Gems Knoxville, Tennessee http://www.VolunteerGems.com -----Original Message----- >From: EUGENE HARTSTEIN >Sent: Mar 31, 2006 9:08 AM >To: John Teague , "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > >John: > >I think most dealers, myself included, have priced a specimen beyond >reasonable to attract attention to a display in the hope of selling >others.... and ended up selling the attention getter. I think this >demonstrates that a truly spectacular specimen is often difficult to put a >price on, which was Dave's original dilemma. > > > I'm with you. I'm a man of my word and don't back out of a deal, provided >agreed to terms are being met. > >Gene Hartstein > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Teague" >To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list >for rock and gem collectors" >Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:52 AM >Subject: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > >> Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high >> price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" >> they get. >> >> I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years >> agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) >> nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted >> to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that >> I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never >> been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, >> attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on >> God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two >> hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a >> customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now >> what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" >> deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to >> do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or >> check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out >> by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it >> again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I >> had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a >> decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money >> but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've >> never been able to buy it back! >> >> As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the >> Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a >> slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen >> but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. >> Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) >> times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take >> it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that >> I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my >> friends more carefully! >> >> I would still love to have that azurite back! >> >> John Teague >> Volunteer Gems >> Knoxville, Tennessee >> http://www.VolunteerGems.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Al Balmer >>>Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >>>To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >>> >>>Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>> >>>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>>>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how >>>>high >>>>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a >>>>test >>>>of value and doesn't cost too much. >>> >>>Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >>>like this. >>> >>>-- >>>Al Balmer >>>Sun City, AZ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>Subscription Services: >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>List Home Page: >>>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > From dzrtgrls at cox.net Fri Mar 31 07:56:00 2006 From: dzrtgrls at cox.net (Dzrtgrls) Date: Fri Mar 31 07:56:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question In-Reply-To: <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <20060331155553.CRRN26964.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@NIKI> I use the Delorme Earthmate USB GPS with Topo and Street Atlas and it works perfectly. I have an older model of the GPS, but I am guessing the new ones work just as well. For me the $100 is worth it not to have the problems you are experiencing. The Delorme software does work fine for downloading and uploading GPS waypoints to and from my Garmin GPS. Niki www.dzrtgrls.com -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanette Wimpee Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:36 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gemcollectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question Speaking of GPS units and Delorme's Streets and Topo....got a question about a problem we're having. We bought a Garmin GPSMap 76C and Topo 5 from Delorme. The first time we got on the road, and tried to track with the GPS in Topo, it was the devil to get it working with the software. Even after looking up third party setting in Topo it didn't work, until I must have gotten the right combination of powering up the laptop, the GPS, and Topo in the right order, or maybe I pushed the button with the right finger that time, I dunno...but I got it working halfway to Orlando. Then we bought Delorme Streets....couldn't get it working at first until I found the right settings on the Garmin website. So last week we took all the equipment with us to play with in the car on our way to our daughter's house. Fired up Streets and it worked fine. I started Topo 5 too just to check out some topography, then decided to switch the GPS from Streets to Topo. Fours hours of fiddling with settings and I could never get Topo 5 to track with the GPS. It worked with Streets but not with Topo 5. Anybody have any ideas why, or what the heck is going on???? GPS challenged, Jeanette _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 31 08:35:49 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 31 08:36:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <32307157.1143819183324.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <026401c654e1$2b5f52c0$6400a8c0@hppav> I think you have this right on target John. I find this to be the hardest part of being a dealer. I've had similar experiences. In a perfect world, dealers would know the value of specimens before they acquire them and then take a flat markup. In the real world, many items end up selling way below what you think but few above, because you never have a customer say, "That price is too good. Would you take more for it?" In all we try to average out to a reasonable profit ... we hope. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Teague" To: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 10:33 AM Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > Gene ... and the list, > > Bottom line to all this is that a specimen is really only worth > what a buyer is WILLING to pay! All the prices that we dealers > place on specimens are totally subjective. It is our opinion as > to what it is worth. To me, this is the hardest part of being > a "dealer"! > > I know a big-time "wholesale" dealer (one that I do quite a bit > of business with each year) whose wife told me (with him out > of earshot!) that she has to "rein him in" when he is pricing a > particular species. She said it is his "favorite" and he really > tends to overprice them! > > At shows, I've had one customer tell me that a certain specimen > was really a great price and later another customer comment > on the fact that I must "really like" that same specimen (same > specimen, same show ... different customers/opinions). One > felt that it was underpriced, the other overpriced. Which was > correct? BOTH! Each had the "correct" opinion based on > their experience, likes, pocketbooks, etc. > > John Teague > Volunteer Gems > Knoxville, Tennessee > http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: EUGENE HARTSTEIN >>Sent: Mar 31, 2006 9:08 AM >>To: John Teague , "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list >>for rock and gem collectors" >>Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >> >>John: >> >>I think most dealers, myself included, have priced a specimen beyond >>reasonable to attract attention to a display in the hope of selling >>others.... and ended up selling the attention getter. I think this >>demonstrates that a truly spectacular specimen is often difficult to put a >>price on, which was Dave's original dilemma. >> >> >> I'm with you. I'm a man of my word and don't back out of a deal, provided >>agreed to terms are being met. >> >>Gene Hartstein >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "John Teague" >>To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list >>for rock and gem collectors" >>Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:52 AM >>Subject: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >> >> >>> Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high >>> price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" >>> they get. >>> >>> I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years >>> agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) >>> nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted >>> to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that >>> I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never >>> been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, >>> attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on >>> God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two >>> hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a >>> customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now >>> what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" >>> deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to >>> do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or >>> check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out >>> by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it >>> again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I >>> had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a >>> decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money >>> but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've >>> never been able to buy it back! >>> >>> As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the >>> Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a >>> slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen >>> but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. >>> Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) >>> times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take >>> it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that >>> I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my >>> friends more carefully! >>> >>> I would still love to have that azurite back! >>> >>> John Teague >>> Volunteer Gems >>> Knoxville, Tennessee >>> http://www.VolunteerGems.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>From: Al Balmer >>>>Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >>>>To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >>>> >>>>Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>>> >>>>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>>>>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how >>>>>high >>>>>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a >>>>>test >>>>>of value and doesn't cost too much. >>>> >>>>Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >>>>like this. >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Al Balmer >>>>Sun City, AZ >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>Subscription Services: >>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>List Home Page: >>>>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>> Subscription Services: >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>> List Home Page: >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>> >> > > > > From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Mar 31 08:39:01 2006 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 31 08:39:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing Thanks Message-ID: <8C822F8BFF407A0-1D48-132B@FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com> Hi All, I would like to thank all the people who had comments on my dilemma. The object was to find a fair price for the buyer, and to get a fair deal for myself. I always been against charging what the market will bear, one reason we have failed as a business; I tend to give way too many discounts. I am still no closer to a price, than when I asked. Unfortunately no one offered any real dollar signs, which is what I was looking for. My pricing tends to fall in the 10 to 25 dollar range, but I figured the fossils were worth more than that. Thanks, Dave --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca Fri Mar 31 08:46:32 2006 From: dmichaelschmidt at shaw.ca (michael schmidt) Date: Fri Mar 31 08:46:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing Thanks References: <8C822F8BFF407A0-1D48-132B@FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <010601c654e2$aa8f06c0$e75c5318@johnny> Dave send me ome photos, and I will try to come up with prices for you Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 8:39 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing Thanks > > Hi All, > I would like to thank all the people who had comments on my dilemma. The > object was to find a fair price for the buyer, and to get a fair deal for myself. > I always been against charging what the market will bear, one reason we have > failed as a business; I tend to give way too many discounts. I am still no closer > to a price, than when I asked. Unfortunately no one offered any real dollar signs, > which is what I was looking for. My pricing tends to fall in the 10 to 25 dollar > range, but I figured the fossils were worth more than that. > Thanks, > Dave > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Fri Mar 31 09:09:50 2006 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Fri Mar 31 09:09:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <32307157.1143819183324.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <026401c654e1$2b5f52c0$6400a8c0@hppav> Message-ID: <006501c654e5$ec1a5330$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Hi. When I buy a parcel, first thing, I eliminate 90 % from the equation. The remaining 10%, the best, must give me the required profit, ie, 2 or 3 times the total cost of the parcel, considering shipment and other expenses. The first mentioned 90 %, less aestethic or with defects, are sold really cheap, avoiding the acumulation of low grade material around my feet. Amando ----- Original Message ----- From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" To: "John Teague" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >I think you have this right on target John. I find this to be the hardest > part of being a dealer. I've had similar experiences. > > In a perfect world, dealers would know the value of specimens before they > acquire them and then take a flat markup. In the real world, many items > end > up selling way below what you think but few above, because you never have > a > customer say, "That price is too good. Would you take more for it?" In all > we try to average out to a reasonable profit ... we hope. > > Gene Hartstein > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Teague" > To: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 10:33 AM > Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > >> Gene ... and the list, >> >> Bottom line to all this is that a specimen is really only worth >> what a buyer is WILLING to pay! All the prices that we dealers >> place on specimens are totally subjective. It is our opinion as >> to what it is worth. To me, this is the hardest part of being >> a "dealer"! >> >> I know a big-time "wholesale" dealer (one that I do quite a bit >> of business with each year) whose wife told me (with him out >> of earshot!) that she has to "rein him in" when he is pricing a >> particular species. She said it is his "favorite" and he really >> tends to overprice them! >> >> At shows, I've had one customer tell me that a certain specimen >> was really a great price and later another customer comment >> on the fact that I must "really like" that same specimen (same >> specimen, same show ... different customers/opinions). One >> felt that it was underpriced, the other overpriced. Which was >> correct? BOTH! Each had the "correct" opinion based on >> their experience, likes, pocketbooks, etc. >> >> John Teague >> Volunteer Gems >> Knoxville, Tennessee >> http://www.VolunteerGems.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: EUGENE HARTSTEIN >>>Sent: Mar 31, 2006 9:08 AM >>>To: John Teague , "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing >>>list for rock and gem collectors" >>>Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>> >>>John: >>> >>>I think most dealers, myself included, have priced a specimen beyond >>>reasonable to attract attention to a display in the hope of selling >>>others.... and ended up selling the attention getter. I think this >>>demonstrates that a truly spectacular specimen is often difficult to put >>>a >>>price on, which was Dave's original dilemma. >>> >>> >>> I'm with you. I'm a man of my word and don't back out of a deal, >>> provided >>>agreed to terms are being met. >>> >>>Gene Hartstein >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "John Teague" >>>To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list >>>for rock and gem collectors" >>>Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:52 AM >>>Subject: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>> >>> >>>> Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high >>>> price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" >>>> they get. >>>> >>>> I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years >>>> agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) >>>> nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted >>>> to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that >>>> I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never >>>> been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, >>>> attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on >>>> God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two >>>> hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a >>>> customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now >>>> what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" >>>> deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to >>>> do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or >>>> check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out >>>> by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it >>>> again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I >>>> had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a >>>> decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money >>>> but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've >>>> never been able to buy it back! >>>> >>>> As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the >>>> Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a >>>> slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen >>>> but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. >>>> Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) >>>> times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take >>>> it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that >>>> I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my >>>> friends more carefully! >>>> >>>> I would still love to have that azurite back! >>>> >>>> John Teague >>>> Volunteer Gems >>>> Knoxville, Tennessee >>>> http://www.VolunteerGems.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Al Balmer >>>>>Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >>>>>To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >>>>>collectors" >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>>>> >>>>>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>>>>>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see how >>>>>>high >>>>>>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a >>>>>>test >>>>>>of value and doesn't cost too much. >>>>> >>>>>Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >>>>>like this. >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Al Balmer >>>>>Sun City, AZ >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>>Subscription Services: >>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>>List Home Page: >>>>>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>> Subscription Services: >>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>> List Home Page: >>>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 31 10:12:28 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 31 10:12:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens References: <32307157.1143819183324.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net><026401c654e1$2b5f52c0$6400a8c0@hppav> <006501c654e5$ec1a5330$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <002b01c654ee$ac0e5d50$6400a8c0@hppav> I think most of us follow a similar strategy in hopes of controlling the growth of lower grade inventory. However all that does is put the profit equation on a smaller number of pieces, leaving less room for error. If you guess wrong on the few premium pieces (or they get damaged), you are in trouble. Just to set the record straight. I do not charge what the market will bear either, however on extremely unusual pieces I am also averse to selling pieces at a tenth of what people would gladly pay. You often need the fair value of these pieces to stay in business. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Afonso" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > Hi. > When I buy a parcel, first thing, I eliminate 90 % from the equation. > The remaining 10%, the best, must give me the required profit, ie, 2 or 3 > times the total cost of the parcel, considering shipment and other > expenses. > The first mentioned 90 %, less aestethic or with defects, are sold really > cheap, avoiding the acumulation of low grade material around my feet. > Amando > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" > To: "John Teague" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing > list for rock and gem collectors" > Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens > > >>I think you have this right on target John. I find this to be the hardest >> part of being a dealer. I've had similar experiences. >> >> In a perfect world, dealers would know the value of specimens before they >> acquire them and then take a flat markup. In the real world, many items >> end >> up selling way below what you think but few above, because you never have >> a >> customer say, "That price is too good. Would you take more for it?" In >> all >> we try to average out to a reasonable profit ... we hope. >> >> Gene Hartstein >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Teague" >> To: "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A >> mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 10:33 AM >> Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >> >> >>> Gene ... and the list, >>> >>> Bottom line to all this is that a specimen is really only worth >>> what a buyer is WILLING to pay! All the prices that we dealers >>> place on specimens are totally subjective. It is our opinion as >>> to what it is worth. To me, this is the hardest part of being >>> a "dealer"! >>> >>> I know a big-time "wholesale" dealer (one that I do quite a bit >>> of business with each year) whose wife told me (with him out >>> of earshot!) that she has to "rein him in" when he is pricing a >>> particular species. She said it is his "favorite" and he really >>> tends to overprice them! >>> >>> At shows, I've had one customer tell me that a certain specimen >>> was really a great price and later another customer comment >>> on the fact that I must "really like" that same specimen (same >>> specimen, same show ... different customers/opinions). One >>> felt that it was underpriced, the other overpriced. Which was >>> correct? BOTH! Each had the "correct" opinion based on >>> their experience, likes, pocketbooks, etc. >>> >>> John Teague >>> Volunteer Gems >>> Knoxville, Tennessee >>> http://www.VolunteerGems.com >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>From: EUGENE HARTSTEIN >>>>Sent: Mar 31, 2006 9:08 AM >>>>To: John Teague , "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing >>>>list for rock and gem collectors" >>>>Subject: Re: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>>> >>>>John: >>>> >>>>I think most dealers, myself included, have priced a specimen beyond >>>>reasonable to attract attention to a display in the hope of selling >>>>others.... and ended up selling the attention getter. I think this >>>>demonstrates that a truly spectacular specimen is often difficult to put >>>>a >>>>price on, which was Dave's original dilemma. >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm with you. I'm a man of my word and don't back out of a deal, >>>> provided >>>>agreed to terms are being met. >>>> >>>>Gene Hartstein >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "John Teague" >>>>To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing >>>>list >>>>for rock and gem collectors" >>>>Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:52 AM >>>>Subject: Re:[Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>>> >>>> >>>>> Some show dealers do a similar thing. They will place a high >>>>> price on a specimen ... and then wait to see what "offers" >>>>> they get. >>>>> >>>>> I had a similar situation backfire bigtime on me. Several years >>>>> agoI had a VERY (as in one that I really had bought for myself!) >>>>> nice, large Tsumeb azurite that I did NOT want to sell but wanted >>>>> to attract attention at shows for the smaller (nice!) azurites that >>>>> I DID want to sell. Rather than doing the smart (I've never >>>>> been labeled that!) thing and mark it "sold", I placed a high, >>>>> attention getting price on it ... one that I thought that no one on >>>>> God's green earth would ever pay! Yep, you guessed it. Two >>>>> hours into the first show that I displayed the specimen, a >>>>> customer walks up, looks at it, and simply says "I want it!" Now >>>>> what am I to do? I hate it when someone backs out of "their" >>>>> deal on me (more on that a bit later) ... so I was not about to >>>>> do that. I think " maybe he will want to pay by credit card or >>>>> check" and as I had never met him before, I could wiggle out >>>>> by not feeling comfortable doing that. Yep, you guessed it >>>>> again ... he WANTS to pay cash. This is a specimen that I >>>>> had priced into the five digit range (yep, that was without a >>>>> decimal point) and he pulls out cash to pay. I made great money >>>>> but on a specimen that, to this day, I regret selling. Nope, I've >>>>> never been able to buy it back! >>>>> >>>>> As to dealers backing out of "their" deal ... I hate it! At the >>>>> Bloomington show last year, a dealer price me a specimen at a >>>>> slight "dealer" price. I called him buy it. He had the specimen >>>>> but thought it was now worth more. I offered him his retail price. >>>>> Nope, it was worth more. He "offered" it for almost five (5) >>>>> times his original "retail" price. Needless to say, I did not take >>>>> it. It bothered me mostly because this was from someone that >>>>> I really had considered a friend. Guess I need to choose my >>>>> friends more carefully! >>>>> >>>>> I would still love to have that azurite back! >>>>> >>>>> John Teague >>>>> Volunteer Gems >>>>> Knoxville, Tennessee >>>>> http://www.VolunteerGems.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: Al Balmer >>>>>>Sent: Mar 29, 2006 10:13 AM >>>>>>To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >>>>>>collectors" >>>>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: *** Spam *** [Rockhounds] Pricing on rare specimens >>>>>> >>>>>>On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:11:35 -0500, "EUGENE HARTSTEIN" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Another trick I've heard of is to put >>>>>>>it up on E-Bay with a resereve of several thousand dollars and see >>>>>>>how >>>>>>>high >>>>>>>the bidding goes. You may have to do this more than once. Gives you a >>>>>>>test >>>>>>>of value and doesn't cost too much. >>>>>> >>>>>>Yet another reason for me to avoid E-Bay. Too many people who think >>>>>>like this. >>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>Al Balmer >>>>>>Sun City, AZ >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>>>Subscription Services: >>>>>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>>>List Home Page: >>>>>>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>>> Subscription Services: >>>>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>>> List Home Page: >>>>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Fri Mar 31 10:38:39 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Fri Mar 31 10:39:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:15:38 -0800, Tim Fisher wrote: >I don't have a solution for you that involves any DeLorme product, >sorry. FWIW DeLorme has a bad reputation vis-a-vis Garmin GPSs. Odd. I've never heard that, despite knowing dozens of RVers who use Delorme products with Garmin GPS, and having used Delorme products with a Garmin Streetpilot myself for about six years. It sounds like the OP has a simple configuration problem of some kind. A call to Delorme tech support should resolve it. >Mapsource comes with the 76c, and works perfectly with it. I don't >know how it compares to DeLorme software, but it suits my purposes >just fine when used with my Garmin GPS V. I got the City Select >upgrade and the roads are extremely detailed in all North American >cities, which is pretty impressive considering that my sisters' condo >development in Whistler BC is only a couple years old and yet the >500' long dead end street is in City Select 2005. I have never had a >problem getting Mapsource/City Select and the GPS V to work together. >I use AllTopo Maps for tracking with my GPS when I want topographic >detail, since it uses the latest USGS 7.5' & 15' maps as they are >released, and all sorts of other state & BLM maps, but this may be a >little expensive for most people ($80-$98 per state). > >At 04:36 PM 3/30/2006, you wrote: >>Speaking of GPS units and Delorme's Streets and Topo....got a >>question about a problem we're having. We bought a Garmin GPSMap >>76C and Topo 5 from Delorme. The first time we got on the road, and >>tried to track with the GPS in Topo, it was the devil to get it >>working with the software. Even after looking up third party >>setting in Topo it didn't work, until I must have gotten the right >>combination of powering up the laptop, the GPS, and Topo in the >>right order, or maybe I pushed the button with the right finger that >>time, I dunno...but I got it working halfway to Orlando. Then we >>bought Delorme Streets....couldn't get it working at first until I >>found the right settings on the Garmin website. So last week we took >>all the equipment with us to play with in the car on our way to our >>daughter's house. Fired up Streets and it worked fine. I started >>Topo 5 too just to check out some topography, then decided to switch >>the GPS from Streets to Topo. Fours hours of fiddling with >>settings and I could never get Topo 5 to track with the GPS. It >>worked with Streets but not with Topo 5. Anybody have any ideas >>why, or what the heck is going on???? >>GPS challenged, >>Jeanette > >Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com >Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From tim at orerockon.com Fri Mar 31 11:38:57 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Mar 31 11:38:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question In-Reply-To: References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren> <000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> <7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060331111901.0368f180@orerockon.com> There are several websites dedicated to GPS reviews and all have mentioned problems with SA and Garmin units. DeLorme's loose interpretation of the NMEA protocol for real-time tracking includes several illegal variable names which Garmin in their strict adherence to the standard (ahem) does not recognize. I agree that they are fixable but for me like someone else just said it's worth the $$ to get a program and/or GPS that just plain old works without wasting days fiddling with settings. That's how I settled on AllTopo Maps. There is a reason the Earthmate works perfectly with SA and some other manufacturers' units do not - $$. DeLorme naturally wants you to use their GPS unit with their software. P.S. DeLorme's tech support has an abysmal reputation, so if anyone has called them and received a solution I would love to hear about it. They remind me of LaCrosse Scientific who manufactures weather stations that are designed to break within 3 months (I know of no one who has stated that theirs works more than 90 days after they purchased it, which coincidentally is the warranty period). Despite many tries I had to give up getting mine serviced; from what I have read the replacement units are identical and will break within 90 days anyway. At 10:38 AM 3/31/2006, you wrote: >On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 18:15:38 -0800, Tim Fisher >wrote: > > >I don't have a solution for you that involves any DeLorme product, > >sorry. FWIW DeLorme has a bad reputation vis-a-vis Garmin GPSs. > >Odd. I've never heard that, despite knowing dozens of RVers who use >Delorme products with Garmin GPS, and having used Delorme products >with a Garmin Streetpilot myself for about six years. > >It sounds like the OP has a simple configuration problem of some kind. >A call to Delorme tech support should resolve it. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Mar 31 19:01:34 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (EUGENE HARTSTEIN) Date: Fri Mar 31 19:01:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Show Message-ID: <00af01c65538$95fbe240$6400a8c0@hppav> This weekend is the combined show for the Phila Minerlalogical Society and Delaware Valley Paleo sociey at the LuLu Temple at 5140 Butler Pike in Plymouth Meeting, PA. For info go here http://dvps.essentrix.net/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From geenet2 at mchsi.com Fri Mar 31 20:29:46 2006 From: geenet2 at mchsi.com (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Fri Mar 31 20:31:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re:Garmin-Delorme question References: <0dee01c653ad$72ea8ea0$0200a8c0@warren><000801c6545b$1e5916f0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A><7.0.0.16.2.20060330180316.036a59f8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <006d01c65544$e81894e0$6501a8c0@CMC3101861A> It probably is just a simple configuration problem that I haven't tried yet. Trying all permutations of all possible setting on the GPS and the program is a hassle. Back to the Garmin and/or Delorme websites, or maybe tech support. I usually figure these kind of things out for myself, but I thought I'd shortcut the process by seeing if anyone else had the same problems. If it worked with each program once, I know it can do it again if I just use the right finger.... Jeanette > > Odd. I've never heard that, despite knowing dozens of RVers who use > Delorme products with Garmin GPS, and having used Delorme products > with a Garmin Streetpilot myself for about six years. > > It sounds like the OP has a simple configuration problem of some kind. > A call to Delorme tech support should resolve it. From kahako at verizon.net Fri Mar 31 23:02:23 2006 From: kahako at verizon.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Mar 31 23:02:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Subject reminder (ADMIN) Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060331175443.035808f8@incoming.verizon.net> Hi List, Here's a reminder that will help make our communication better: Please check the Subject line in your messages. The purpose of the Subject is to make it easy for people to decide if they want to read or delete your message. 1. Please make your topic as clear as possible. Things like "Question" or "Need help" or "Taking a trip" will be much more helpful if a word or two is added, like "Lapidary question" or "Need identification help," or "Going to Idaho." 2. Remove anything that isn't needed, even if it originally came from someone else. A good example is the one going around lately that begins with *** Spam *** . 3. If you have more than one topic to introduce, please post different messages with appropriate topics for each one. 4. If you move the topic pretty far away from the original idea, please change the Subject and put (was) before the old one. For example: "UV lamps (was) Willemite crystals" 5. Don't forget to put "AD" in the Subject when you post your ad. Aloha, Kitty (ADIM Team)