From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Wed Nov 1 09:50:35 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Wed Nov 1 09:50:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] hello Message-ID: Welcome Rick! You have no idea what a great list to enhance your hobby you have found here. Lots of very knowledgeable folks. And they freely share that knowledge. Where in North Alabama are you? East near Georgia, west near Mississippi, or about where in between? Lots of rocks up there. And fossils galore! Lots of coal mines in that part of the state. We recently went to a closed strip mine near Jasper in Walker County. Your best bet, as already mentioned, is to join a local club. So many resources there, especially the members themselves. And your membership helps get you access to many places closed to the general public. Glenn So anyway I need something to enjoy and relax for a change. I am in way, way north Alabama, almost in Tennessee. Any suggestions on areas close to do a little initial rockhounding? T!Thanks for listening Rick _________________________________________________________________ Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search: Try it now! http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From carroll4 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 1 16:43:01 2006 From: carroll4 at mindspring.com (Claudia Carroll) Date: Wed Nov 1 16:42:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: hello (vewalden@aol.com) Message-ID: <410-220061142043181@mindspring.com> Hello Rick and welcome. I am in North Alabama myself, though not quite so far north as you. I am below Arab myself. Huntsville has a local club, Huntsville Gem and Mineral Society. http://www.huntsvillegms.org/ I haven't joined them myself yet, just haven't found the time. I do go to their annual show though and keep an eye out on their scheduled rock hounding trips. Besides the Paint Rock Agate and quartz./calcite stuff, you can also find fossils all over. Though they are mostly limited to shells and chrinoid (spelling). James carroll4@mindspring.com (if you ever want to get in touch with me) > > My name is Rick. I am 55 years old and I have enjoyed rocks and minerals and Geology since I was old enough to pick up a rock. I think I missed my calling because I just love it and always have. Everywhere I go if there are rocks in sight, I am always looking through them. I found a piece of amethyst one day in a gravel parking lot, just looking. I have ordered me some books to read so that maybe I can get started collecting and maybe one day I will have a place with a room to keep them. I have gone through some pretty rough times the last several years with being laid off and losing everything. I had a heart attack in 2004 and had a steent put in, then 2005, I had a stroke and just last week I had to have another heart catherization and the steent is blocked and that particular artery us dead. So anyway I need something to enjoy and relax for a change. I am in way, way north Alabama, almost in Tennessee. Any suggestions on areas close to do a little initial rockhounding? T! > hanks for listening > > Rick > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > From carroll4 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 1 16:43:04 2006 From: carroll4 at mindspring.com (Claudia Carroll) Date: Wed Nov 1 16:43:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: hello (vewalden@aol.com) Message-ID: <410-2200611420434266@mindspring.com> Hello Rick and welcome. I am in North Alabama myself, though not quite so far north as you. I am below Arab myself. Huntsville has a local club, Huntsville Gem and Mineral Society. http://www.huntsvillegms.org/ I haven't joined them myself yet, just haven't found the time. I do go to their annual show though and keep an eye out on their scheduled rock hounding trips. Besides the Paint Rock Agate and quartz./calcite stuff, you can also find fossils all over. Though they are mostly limited to shells and chrinoid (spelling). James Carroll carroll4@mindspring.com (if you ever want to get in touch with me) > > My name is Rick. I am 55 years old and I have enjoyed rocks and minerals and Geology since I was old enough to pick up a rock. I think I missed my calling because I just love it and always have. Everywhere I go if there are rocks in sight, I am always looking through them. I found a piece of amethyst one day in a gravel parking lot, just looking. I have ordered me some books to read so that maybe I can get started collecting and maybe one day I will have a place with a room to keep them. I have gone through some pretty rough times the last several years with being laid off and losing everything. I had a heart attack in 2004 and had a steent put in, then 2005, I had a stroke and just last week I had to have another heart catherization and the steent is blocked and that particular artery us dead. So anyway I need something to enjoy and relax for a change. I am in way, way north Alabama, almost in Tennessee. Any suggestions on areas close to do a little initial rockhounding? T! > hanks for listening > > Rick > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From anotherbrightidea at hotmail.com Fri Nov 3 07:15:11 2006 From: anotherbrightidea at hotmail.com (Douglas Turet) Date: Fri Nov 3 07:15:16 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] A personal request Message-ID: Hi folks, I realize that I'm one of the newer kids on the block, here, but I'm wondering if I could ask a small personal favor of some of you, my fellow subscribers... When you see a posting that inspires you to respond, could you please take the 1.25 seconds' worth of time to select, copy and paste just the part you're responding to, rather than either copyiong that entire strand or hitting the reply button and copying the entire list? Lately, it seems I'm having to scroll through an average of thirty to forty inches of left-margin carrots and double- and triple-carrots (i.e. vectors) within each day's listings, and I 'm finding it hard to separate the valuable stuff out from all of the cop-cop-cop-cop-copies. Thank you, in advance, for this tiny little effort, which will make all of our readings just that much easier. All the best, Doug Douglas Turet, GJ Turet Design, LLC P. O. Box 242 Avon, MA 02322 U.S.A. Tel. (508) 586-5690 Fax: (508) 586-5677 Email: anotherbrightidea.AT.hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 3 08:09:00 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Fri Nov 3 08:09:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Microminerals from Sauktown Sales Message-ID: <20061103160900.64141.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This month's update will be posted later today on www.sauktown.com . There are a lot of phosphates from Alabama and Georgia, and some specimens from Spain. This month also includes the first installment of specimens from the Dryer collection, with a lot of Mont St. Hilaire material. I've also added a third page of thumbnails, and rearranged the site a bit. I hope you like the change. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales www.sauktown.com --------------------------------- We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From DicksWi at northville.k12.mi.us Fri Nov 3 08:09:38 2006 From: DicksWi at northville.k12.mi.us (William Dicks) Date: Fri Nov 3 08:09:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Repeat Petrified Wood Book Message-ID: Please would someone once again state the Name of the Petrified Wood book that the list was discussing about a month ago. Our high school library has come into some $ and is currently in the ordering/buying mode. Ordering information and /or ISBN number would be helpful Contact off-list if it would be more appropriate. Thank you Bill Dicks Teacher, Northville High School Board Member, Michigan Earth Science Teachers Association From bobl at peaktopeak.com Fri Nov 3 09:37:18 2006 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Fri Nov 3 09:39:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Yellow Cat Red Wood In-Reply-To: <200610281844.k9SIiBkF021633@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <200611031739.kA3HdLY9015033@bubbleator.drizzle.com> We now have a picture of the petrified pine cone on our website! We also have a pic of the red wood. Both are on this web page: http://www.peaktopeak.com/njeffco/2006/yellowcat/yc06_3.php Enjoy! Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Bob Loeffler Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 12:44 PM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Yellow Cat Red Wood Hi all, We have posted a field trip report and pictures from our Yellow Cat, Utah field trip on our website. Please go to http://www.peaktopeak.com/njeffco/2006/trips06.php and click on the "Yellow Cat and Cisco, Utah" link. That will take you to the bottom of that page and then you can click on the respective field trip report link and/or pictures link. We don't have any pictures of the red wood from there, but there is a picture of a dino bone, black and white pet. wood and scenery pictures. I'll try to get some red wood pics from the people who went on the trip. The trip report is long but good. And don't forget to look at the other reports and pictures from other trips this year. We had many trips this year and lots of pictures were taken. We'll post a couple more reports and pictures soon (hopefully). Regards, Bob Loeffler BobL@peaktopeak.com Field Trip Chairman and Webmaster North Jeffco Gem & Mineral Club (Arvada, CO USA) http://www.peaktopeak.com/njeffco/index.php Webmaster and Asst. Dealer Chairman Denver Gem and Mineral Show http://www.DenverMineralShow.com Check out the largest Colorado Rockhounding website at: http://www.peaktopeak.com/colorado/index.php3 -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of jlkelly1066 Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 11:33 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Yellow Cat Red Wood Wow! One of the most intelligent exchanges I have seen in years on the list and no one called Tim a ************** or anything else. (You must be slipping Tim.) Sorry to get in late to this but i really need to add my two cents. My sweetheart and i were down in Moab two weeks ago, ran into the "right" person this trip and came back with "red" wood as well as some other treasures we have been hoping to find for many years. The wood is found at the bottom of the Morrison Formation, it is NOT easy to find, you DO have to do some major digging and then it all comes down to LUCK. The wood also is found along the edge of what is quite obviously an ancient river, obvious once you realize what you are looking for and looking at. Yeah, most of it is in splinters but once in awhile you find a real treasure. Remember, any trip to Moab HAS to include bone, wood, some of the prettiest agate, jasper, corprolite and gastroliths found anywhere, plus, without exception, some of the grandest scenery in the world. Good hunting. Kelly -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From santaferhs at adelphia.net Fri Nov 3 11:04:03 2006 From: santaferhs at adelphia.net (Robert H. Shepard) Date: Fri Nov 3 11:25:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kurt Segler Message-ID: <000501c6ff7a$d49c8bc0$6501a8c0@DAD> Today, November 4, 2006, on an impulse I entered the name of my old-time mentor, Curt Segeler, into Google just for fun. To my astonishment up popped all kinds of references including an article by Rock Currier (is that really his name?) referring to Segeler and asking if anyone could provide a kind of biography on the gentleman. I can. I was born in Brooklyn in 1926 and when I became 14 I joined Boy Scout Troop 24 of which Curt Segeler was the Scoutmaster. For a tenement kid it was a life saver. Segeler ran the Troop like a Marine Drill Sergeant. He demanded perfection and we adored him. To this day I can thank him mentally for the skills that he taught us, skills that helped me in the Air Force during WWII and later on in my professional life . When I reached 15 he asked me whether I would like to come to his home each Sunday and join a select group of Scouts who were learning mineralogy. I had no idea what mineralogy was but I accepted and for over a year I studied mineralogy, crystallography and blowpipe analysis. He had laid out a complete lab on the top floor of his home and step by step we were introduced to the identification criteria which all good mineralogists know --- hardness, fracture, cleavage, specific gravity, luster and on and on. I didn't realize it at the time, but we were taking a college-level course from a master. With his encouragement I joined the Queens Mineral Society and as I recall, at 15 I was the youngest member in the group. Mineral collecting became an obsession. Buying minerals was forbidden. You could only collect and then trade with other members. I met the most fascinating adults. One in particular stood out. He was a cabinet maker by trade and had built a beautiful walnut cabinet with felt-lined specimen drawers, each one designed to hold a one-inch square specimen. His goal was to collect every mineral in the Dana System of Mineralogy in perfect one-inch sizes and he was well on his way to completing it! One day I asked Segeler how I could make a living as a mineralogist. He explained that it would be difficult, aside from a possible academic position, but if I were serious, I could become a geologist. I thought long and hard about it and after WWII I re-entered college, majored in Geology, graduated and moved to New Mexico to work with the USGS mapping potash deposits. Eventually I shifted careers and became a petroleum geologist and for 40 years I worked for Chevron Overseas as an Exploration Geologist in many corners of the world. I owe my career to Curt Segeler. Was he pompous? You bet. Was he demanding? You bet. But for all the faults, he was responsible for educating a large number of city kids who went on to become leaders and worthy professionals. I was never able to thank him personally for all he had given me so it's a pleasure to be able to write this testimonial. It makes me feel good. Robert H. Shepard Richmond, VT --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Fri Nov 3 11:34:03 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Fri Nov 3 11:36:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kurt Segler References: <000501c6ff7a$d49c8bc0$6501a8c0@DAD> Message-ID: <008e01c6ff7f$31459110$0300a8c0@Notebook> Note that Robert is not a list member so any replies should go to him off-list. John Admin Team ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert H. Shepard" To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:04 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Kurt Segler From cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 12:12:53 2006 From: cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net (Cliff Jackson) Date: Fri Nov 3 12:13:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] gerlach, nv Message-ID: <5390552.1162584773484.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Cathy I think you are referring to the Royal Rainbow Opal Mine. Only open from Apr 15th thru Oct 15th. Contact info: Elselil Philipps, PO Box 226, Gerlach, NV 89412. email :"nvopallady@pocketmail.com" Cliff Jackson Las Vegas From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Nov 3 14:28:07 2006 From: gene at fossilnut.com (gene@fossilnut.com) Date: Fri Nov 3 14:28:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Repeat Petrified Wood Book References: Message-ID: <003601c6ff97$572169f0$6600a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood Written by Frank J. Daniels and Richard D. Dayvault Photography by Frank J. Daniels http://www.westerncoloradopublishing.com/books2.asp Gene Hartstein Newark, DE ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Dicks" To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:09 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Repeat Petrified Wood Book > Please would someone once again state the Name of the Petrified Wood > book that the list was discussing about a month ago. > Our high school library has come into some $ and is currently in the > ordering/buying mode. > > Ordering information and /or ISBN number would be helpful > > Contact off-list if it would be more appropriate. > > Thank you > > Bill Dicks > Teacher, > Northville High School > Board Member, > Michigan Earth Science Teachers Association > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From tim at orerockon.com Fri Nov 3 19:06:32 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Nov 3 19:06:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Bovill Clay deposits In-Reply-To: <200611031739.kA3HdLY9015033@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200610281844.k9SIiBkF021633@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <200611031739.kA3HdLY9015033@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061103185429.039132d0@orerockon.com> Don et al: http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2C25291E Seems to say it all... The leases are underlain mainly by granitoid intrusive rocks of the Thatuna batholith, along with Latah formation sediments and Columbia River basalts. The Thatuna granodiorite is a source of feldspar with a significant Na2O component. Localized deep weathering of the granitoid bodies formed residual deposits of kaolin, K-feldspar, and quartz. Erosion and transport of this material led to the deposition of lacustrine sediments (Latah Formation) composed of sand and clay into a series of basins. The clay is reportedly both kaolin and halloysite. The feldspar-kaolin-quartz deposits on the Helmer-Bovill Property are part of a system in which igneous and metamorphic rocks in the highlands are altered to residual clay, eroded, and transported into basins where a series of kaolin-bearing lacustrine sedimentary facies are deposited. The Helmer-Bovill depositional model for kaolin is similar to the most commonly accepted geological model for the Georgia-South Carolina kaolin belt, from which almost a quarter of all the world's kaolin is mined. In the Washington-Idaho clay region, extrusion of the Columbia River basalts during the Miocene era dammed an extensive series of lakes, where billions of tons of kaolinitic clay and other sediments are believed to have been deposited. Sediments in the Helmer-Bovill area were laid down as lacustrine-fluvial units to 40 meters thick derived from the weathering of Thatuna batholith and Precambrian Belt series metasedimentary rocks. The lake bed sediments in the Washington-Idaho region are termed the Latah formation and consist predominantly of kaolinitic clays and sandy kaolins with minor amounts of quartz gravel and quartz and feldspathic sand. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Nov 3 21:56:27 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Nov 3 21:56:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Bovill Clay deposits In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20061103185429.039132d0@orerockon.com> References: <200610281844.k9SIiBkF021633@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <200611031739.kA3HdLY9015033@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061103185429.039132d0@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <454C2B8B.5000903@verizon.net> Awesome. Amazing what you can find when you look in the right place. This will help the research, I think. This was on the back burner but now you have saved me a little time when I get to it. best, Don Tim Fisher wrote: > Don et al: > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2C25291E > > Seems to say it all... > > The leases are underlain mainly by granitoid intrusive rocks of the > Thatuna batholith, along with Latah formation sediments and Columbia > River basalts. ... From magnet at crocoite.com Sat Nov 4 03:52:54 2006 From: magnet at crocoite.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?magnet?=) Date: Sat Nov 4 03:53:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Australian Mineral Auction... Message-ID: <20061104115254.31343.qmail@webmachine101.com> Hi all I have listed the first few specimens from a collection of predominantly Australian minerals put together over almost 30 years by friends who now find it too difficult to manage. You can locate the items offered on the OZtion online auction site via the link attached. http://www.oztion.com.au/OA/browse/oa_browse.aspx?type5=crocoite Regards Steve From roughrock at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 14:45:42 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Sat Nov 4 14:45:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] gerlach, nv In-Reply-To: <5390552.1162584773484.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5390552.1162584773484.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Or try elselil@aol.com On 11/3/06, Cliff Jackson wrote: > Cathy > I think you are referring to the Royal Rainbow Opal Mine. Only open from Apr 15th thru Oct 15th. Contact info: Elselil Philipps, PO Box 226, Gerlach, NV 89412. email :"nvopallady@pocketmail.com" > > > > > Cliff Jackson > Las Vegas > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From beda.hofmann at geo.unibe.ch Mon Nov 6 04:10:47 2006 From: beda.hofmann at geo.unibe.ch (Beda Hofmann) Date: Mon Nov 6 04:10:09 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco Message-ID: Dear list I am trying to track down the exact location of the locality for stalactitic chalcedony in Morocco. The locality is known as "Sidi Rahal", Atlas Mts. According to some dealers it is close (within 30 km) to Marrakech. Another one told me it is in a basalt ridge on the road to Quarzazate SE of Midelt, about 330 km further east. This would part of the well-known agate occurrences of Aouli-Midelt. Anybody who knows the exact location of Sidi Rahal (best coordinates), or synonyms? Best regards Beda Hofmann, Bern From petemodreski at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 06:39:49 2006 From: petemodreski at yahoo.com (Peter Modreski) Date: Mon Nov 6 06:39:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061106143949.15446.qmail@web38505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Have you been able to check what it may say in the book published a few years ago about minerals and fossils of Morocco, (to our English-speaking List readers, the book is all in German, but of course the pictures & maps--most of the book--are universal and are very good. It may not include quite the location details you need, though; I'd looked at the sections on agate myself, I don't think they were strong on specific location details. The book is a bit pricy, as this review below says, 89 Euros (I think this translates into near $150 U.S.) Here is an excerpt from a review of the book, you can read the complete story at the link below: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GDX/is_3_80/ai_n13676540 Marokko, Land der schonen Mineralien und Fossilien [review in Rocks & Minerals, May-June, 2005 by Claus Hedegaard] Marokko, Land der schonen Mineralien und Fossilien by Steffen Jahn, Rainer Bode, Peter Lyckberg, Olaf Medenbach, and Hans-Jurgen Lierl. In German. Bode Verlag, Haltern, Germany; geoagentur@aol.com. 535 pages; 2003; 89 [euro] plus postage and handling (hardbound). Minerals and fossils from Morocco have dominated the market since the 1970s, but there never has been accessible literature about them, and collectors have had to live with disparate locality designations for identical material. The new Marokko, Land der schonen Mineralien und Fossilien remedies that with its thorough description of well-known and practically unknown localities. It is a worthwhile book for mineral and fossil collectors as well as for travel aficionados. The majority of the book, 394 pages, describes thirty-four mineral localities in alphabetical order, covering such well-known sites as Mibladen and Touissit and such lesser-known ones as Melh (remarkable prehnite) and Oumjerane (superb azurite).... The sixty pages on palaeontology emphasize geology and stratigraphy and chiefly illustrate trilobites. Moroccan trilobites, goniatites, and orthoceratites have dominated the market for inexpensive fossils for years, and it is delightful to be able to read a thorough text on them. The chapter is styled differently from the mineral chapters, with the emphasis on chronology, and tells remarkably little about the individual fossils. There is no description of individual species, which would obviously have required an even larger book of its own... The section on preparation and falsified fossils is thought-provoking... The locality chapters are followed by thematic chapters on agate, meteorites, falsified and treated specimens, and fossils. Most of the thirty-two pages on Moroccan agate are color plates of superb geodes with fantastic patterns and inclusions.... Most locality chapters have good descriptions of how to get to sites ("turn right on the second dirt road after the sign towards ..."), but I would really much rather have had a fair topographic map of the immediate vicinity of each locality than the large-scale map showing the position of the locality relative to Rabat and Marrakech.... Beda Hofmann wrote: Dear list I am trying to track down the exact location of the locality for stalactitic chalcedony in Morocco. The locality is known as "Sidi Rahal", Atlas Mts. According to some dealers it is close (within 30 km) to Marrakech. Another one told me it is in a basalt ridge on the road to Quarzazate SE of Midelt, about 330 km further east. This would part of the well-known agate occurrences of Aouli-Midelt. Anybody who knows the exact location of Sidi Rahal (best coordinates), or synonyms? Best regards Beda Hofmann, Bern -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From petemodreski at yahoo.com Mon Nov 6 06:40:30 2006 From: petemodreski at yahoo.com (Peter Modreski) Date: Mon Nov 6 06:40:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061106144030.9915.qmail@web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Have you been able to check what it may say in the book published a few years ago about minerals and fossils of Morocco, (to our English-speaking List readers, the book is all in German, but of course the pictures & maps--most of the book--are universal and are very good. It may not include quite the location details you need, though; I'd looked at the sections on agate myself, I don't think they were strong on specific location details. The book is a bit pricy, as this review below says, 89 Euros (I think this translates into near $150 U.S.) Here is an excerpt from a review of the book, you can read the complete story at the link below: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GDX/is_3_80/ai_n13676540 Marokko, Land der schonen Mineralien und Fossilien [review in Rocks & Minerals, May-June, 2005 by Claus Hedegaard] Marokko, Land der schonen Mineralien und Fossilien by Steffen Jahn, Rainer Bode, Peter Lyckberg, Olaf Medenbach, and Hans-Jurgen Lierl. In German. Bode Verlag, Haltern, Germany; geoagentur@aol.com. 535 pages; 2003; 89 [euro] plus postage and handling (hardbound). Minerals and fossils from Morocco have dominated the market since the 1970s, but there never has been accessible literature about them, and collectors have had to live with disparate locality designations for identical material. The new Marokko, Land der schonen Mineralien und Fossilien remedies that with its thorough description of well-known and practically unknown localities. It is a worthwhile book for mineral and fossil collectors as well as for travel aficionados. The majority of the book, 394 pages, describes thirty-four mineral localities in alphabetical order, covering such well-known sites as Mibladen and Touissit and such lesser-known ones as Melh (remarkable prehnite) and Oumjerane (superb azurite).... The sixty pages on palaeontology emphasize geology and stratigraphy and chiefly illustrate trilobites. Moroccan trilobites, goniatites, and orthoceratites have dominated the market for inexpensive fossils for years, and it is delightful to be able to read a thorough text on them. The chapter is styled differently from the mineral chapters, with the emphasis on chronology, and tells remarkably little about the individual fossils. There is no description of individual species, which would obviously have required an even larger book of its own... The section on preparation and falsified fossils is thought-provoking... The locality chapters are followed by thematic chapters on agate, meteorites, falsified and treated specimens, and fossils. Most of the thirty-two pages on Moroccan agate are color plates of superb geodes with fantastic patterns and inclusions.... Most locality chapters have good descriptions of how to get to sites ("turn right on the second dirt road after the sign towards ..."), but I would really much rather have had a fair topographic map of the immediate vicinity of each locality than the large-scale map showing the position of the locality relative to Rabat and Marrakech.... Beda Hofmann wrote: Dear list I am trying to track down the exact location of the locality for stalactitic chalcedony in Morocco. The locality is known as "Sidi Rahal", Atlas Mts. According to some dealers it is close (within 30 km) to Marrakech. Another one told me it is in a basalt ridge on the road to Quarzazate SE of Midelt, about 330 km further east. This would part of the well-known agate occurrences of Aouli-Midelt. Anybody who knows the exact location of Sidi Rahal (best coordinates), or synonyms? Best regards Beda Hofmann, Bern -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Sponsored Link Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to $300 a year on your phone bill. Sign up now. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From hilmarandheidi at telus.net Mon Nov 6 10:34:34 2006 From: hilmarandheidi at telus.net (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Mon Nov 6 10:39:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6069CA62-0E95-420F-A918-DE3EED045E4D@telus.net> > Dear list > > I am trying to track down the exact location of the locality for > stalactitic chalcedony in Morocco. The locality is known as "Sidi > Rahal", Atlas Mts. According to some dealers it is close (within 30 > km) to Marrakech. Another one told me it is in a basalt ridge on > the road to Quarzazate SE of Midelt, about 330 km further east. > This would part of the well-known agate occurrences of Aouli- > Midelt. Anybody who knows the exact location of Sidi Rahal (best > coordinates), or synonyms? > > Best regards > Beda Hofmann, Bern ________________________________________________________________________ ________ Sidi Rahal is 95 km NNE of Marrakech. See website (in German): http://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/index.php/Marokko/Atlas? redirectfrom=Marokko%2FHoher+Atlas Amazing what you can find on Google! Hilmar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From seleniteman at comcast.net Mon Nov 6 07:21:57 2006 From: seleniteman at comcast.net (Lewis) Date: Mon Nov 6 12:32:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Utah Ice Message-ID: <000601c701b7$4cdb4570$6400a8c0@karen> I saw your article on Utah Ice and I do know where to get the water clear slabs. I own a mine just one mile North of the Glass Mountain in Capitol Reef National Park. I filed the claim on the mine in May of 1992 and have had it ever since. It is administrated by my managed Jim Morrow out of Santa Fe New Mexico. If you want more information let me know seleniteman@comcast.net or my mapping page at www.oldusmaps.com Lewis Mitcham --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Nov 6 15:26:11 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Nov 6 15:35:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Utah Ice References: <000601c701b7$4cdb4570$6400a8c0@karen> Message-ID: <007001c701fb$62b2c2d0$0300a8c0@Notebook> Note that Lewis is not a list member. Contact him off-list. John Admin Team ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis" To: Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Utah Ice I saw your article on Utah Ice and I do know where to get the water clear slabs. From hilmarandheidi at telus.net Mon Nov 6 15:33:34 2006 From: hilmarandheidi at telus.net (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Mon Nov 6 15:38:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7639AB49-60FB-48BE-87EE-6C8061272D7F@telus.net> > Dear list > > I am trying to track down the exact location of the locality for > stalactitic chalcedony in Morocco. The locality is known as "Sidi > Rahal", Atlas Mts. According to some dealers it is close (within 30 > km) to Marrakech. Another one told me it is in a basalt ridge on > the road to Quarzazate SE of Midelt, about 330 km further east. > This would part of the well-known agate occurrences of Aouli- > Midelt. Anybody who knows the exact location of Sidi Rahal (best > coordinates), or synonyms? > > Best regards > Beda Hofmann, Bern > -- ________________________________________________________________________ ________ Sidi Rahal is 95 km NNE of Marrakech. See website (in German): http://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/index.php/Marokko/Atlas? redirectfrom=Marokko%2FHoher+Atlas Amazing what you can find on Google! Hilmar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Nov 6 16:28:34 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 6 16:25:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco References: Message-ID: <454FD273.4DB8@Tomaszewski.net> A google search turned up http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MO/9/Sidi_Rahal.html Beda Hofmann wrote: > > Dear list > > I am trying to track down the exact location of the locality for > stalactitic chalcedony in Morocco. The locality is known as "Sidi > Rahal", Atlas Mts. According to some dealers it is close (within 30 > km) to Marrakech. Another one told me it is in a basalt ridge on the > road to Quarzazate SE of Midelt, about 330 km further east. This > would part of the well-known agate occurrences of Aouli-Midelt. > Anybody who knows the exact location of Sidi Rahal (best > coordinates), or synonyms? > > Best regards > Beda Hofmann, Bern > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From smtravis at plateautel.net Mon Nov 6 17:35:24 2006 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Mon Nov 6 17:35:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Utah Ice References: <000601c701b7$4cdb4570$6400a8c0@karen> <007001c701fb$62b2c2d0$0300a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <089401c7020c$ff792120$d61771ce@marilyn> There is a large deposit of New Mexico Ice near Carlsbad If you wish to dig it it is on BLM land and accesable I am not interested in comercial diggers but if you want to come to carlsbad Ill be gald to guide you to the location and you can dig what you want. Steve Keep on rockin ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Siebel" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Utah Ice > Note that Lewis is not a list member. Contact him off-list. > > John > Admin Team > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 7:21 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Utah Ice > > > I saw your article on Utah Ice and I do know where to get the water clear > slabs. > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From beda.hofmann at geo.unibe.ch Mon Nov 6 22:25:22 2006 From: beda.hofmann at geo.unibe.ch (Beda Hofmann) Date: Mon Nov 6 22:24:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sidi Rahal, Morocco In-Reply-To: <20061106143949.15446.qmail@web38505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061106143949.15446.qmail@web38505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the help, the book > > Marokko, Land der sch?nen Mineralien und Fossilien > [review in Rocks & Minerals, May-June, 2005 by Claus Hedegaard] > Marokko, Land der sch?nen Mineralien und >Fossilien by Steffen Jahn, Rainer Bode, Peter >Lyckberg, Olaf Medenbach, and Hans-Jurgen Lierl. >In German. Bode Verlag, Haltern, Germany; >geoagentur@aol.com. 535 pages; 2003; 89 [euro] >plus postage and handling (hardbound). > was actually standing on my shelf (!) and has a chapter about Sidi Rahal! Even though it is not really well explained where it is, the printed map sections allowed me to locate the place with Google Earth exactly 50 km due E of Marrakech at: 31?38.9'N 7?28.3' W This is quite far from the place 95 km NNE of Marrakech as suggested on the http://www.mineralienatlas.de/lexikon/index.php/Marokko/Atlas? Webpage (thanks anyway!), and also a different Sidi Rahal than the one you easily find with Google at http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MO/9/Sidi_Rahal.html The example shows that it is not easy to locate find places based on often diverging information, and if there are multiple places with the same name (as is quite common in countries of widely different culture!). Best regards Beda Hofmann -- ************************* Dr. Beda Anton Hofmann Konservator, Abteilung Erdwissenschaften / Curator, Earth Science Department Naturhistorisches Museum Bern / Natural History Museum Bern Bernastrasse 15 CH-3005 Bern, Schweiz / Switzerland Tel/Phone +41 31 350 72 40 FAX +41 31 350 74 99 e-mail beda.hofmann@geo.unibe.ch http://www.nmbe.ch/ ************************* From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Nov 9 15:30:14 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Nov 9 15:30:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Club Show in Louisville Message-ID: <002201c70457$020caf00$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> The Kyana Geological Society has its annual show in Louisville, KY Dates & Hours: Nov. 10, 11, 12. It is from 10:00 to 7:00 Friday and Saturday, 10:00 to 6:00 Sunday. Location: Executive Inn, at I-65 and I-264 across from the Kentucky Fair and Expo Center. Dealers from around the region with minerals, fossils, jewelry, etc. I am set up with minerals from the Pacific NW, Sweden, China, as well as local. I will also have some nice fossils. Alan G. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Vewalden at aol.com Fri Nov 10 04:31:11 2006 From: Vewalden at aol.com (Vewalden@aol.com) Date: Fri Nov 10 04:31:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Louisville show Message-ID: <534.a1b9124.3285cb0f@aol.com> Well that is really nice. I am heading the wrong direction though. I will be headed to Knoxville MOnday. Rick --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Fri Nov 10 16:27:31 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Fri Nov 10 16:27:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Reintroduction Message-ID: <455518F3.70708@tenforward.com> Hi Everyone, I'm back and I wanted to say hello to everyone since I've been away. I dropped off the list for a bit, but with my commitments accomplished, here I am, I'm back. I've worked up several new papers since I've returned which I'll be sending out in a kind of barrage of emails ( for this I apologize ), they'll soon be following. I'll have other papers coming in the near future which as equally, I hope you'll enjoy. Take care and all the very best! John --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Fri Nov 10 16:28:54 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Fri Nov 10 16:28:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Crater Rock Museum, Central Point, Oregon Message-ID: <45551946.4090408@tenforward.com> Hi Everyone, It's been a busy year and time sure seems likes it's flying by at a furious quick pace. But rather then droning on about the obvious, I'd like to invite you to read my newest online paper, this one a quaint review of the Crater Rock Museum in Central Point, Oregon. I hope you'll consider giving this wonderful little institution a visit, I think you'll enjoy the experience! http://mcrocks.com/ftr06-2/CornishAugust2006.html All the very best, John --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Fri Nov 10 16:30:55 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Fri Nov 10 16:30:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Davis Creek, California Obsidian Message-ID: <455519BF.5020408@tenforward.com> And now, a little fun read and it's all true too!... 10/13/2006 Davis Creek, California Obsidian By John Cornish j&gcornish@tenforward.com One day, we were at the Royal Purple beds and I was digging away. It was a fine day with a soft breeze stirring the trees about us with a soft rustling. Other then our banter and the sounds of our picks and shovels, the main sound I remember was the lowing of the cattle free ranging through the woods. Over the course of the day, Gloria and our friends drifted in and out of the diggings while I pretty much stayed at it and dug for treasure. Finally, after noticing that I'd been alone in the hole for awhile, I got up and brushed the dirt away and slowly trudged back to our rigs and that's where I found everyone. They were mute and bug-eyed and something had happened since last I'd seen my wife and friends, something intense! I whirled and scanned about, even casting a wary eye towards the tops of the trees, not knowing what I'd find there, but I was completely assured that something was wrong. These were my friends, my wife, something traumatic had happened, but what? And then slowly, they began forming words and the glassy stares began to fade from their eyes as they tried to focus on my presence. As they attempted speech, slow syllable by slow syllable, the fantastic story of what they'd endured began to unfold... They'd taken a break and were making up a little lunch when the lowing of the cattle started getting closer. The brush about them began to rattle and shake until suddenly the head of the largest bull any of them had ever seen broke through the undergrowth and began coming nearer. As they told the story, they kept looking first from me to my nearby S-10 until eerily they all turned in seeming telepathic union and pointed at the truck and said, "There, that's how big it was! That's how big it was!" Over and over the words began to spill out in a mad rush until eventually all semblance of the English language fell away. Their eyes began to glass over again and sadly, it was there that I left them, all pointing to my truck and softly, madly babbling away... As I munched the half finished sandwich I'd snatched up from the table, I made my way back to the hole I'd been working. In the rich brown dirt all around there lay half buried chunks of obsidian treasure and I had work to do. As a last thought, when asked, no one seems to remember the bull or even that day. Heck, it's almost as if they've completely blocked away the entire experience. This perplexed me at first as I just couldn't understand their reactions, but when I pressed, I noticed the vacant glassy stares returning and began to hear an incoherent rambling and that's when I stop asking questions. I can't stand to see them this way and so now, years later, it's only I who can recall that day. I never did see that bull, oh, I heard him, I just never actually saw him. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe... All the very best everyone, John --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Fri Nov 10 16:32:11 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Fri Nov 10 16:32:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Extremes; Petersen Mountain, Washoe County, Nevada Message-ID: <45551A0B.3090404@tenforward.com> Hi Everyone, Now that I've had the chance to be home for awhile, I've finished up this newest paper. I very much hope you enjoy. Just click on the link below... All the very best, John http://mcrocks.com/ftr06-2/CornishSeptember2006.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Fri Nov 10 16:32:31 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Fri Nov 10 16:32:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] My Weekend: The Pacific Northwest Friends of Mineralogy Symposium and Some Hoped For Collecting Message-ID: <45551A1F.7070903@tenforward.com> 10/23/2006 My Weekend: The Pacific Northwest Friends of Mineralogy Symposium and Some Hoped For Collecting By John Cornish j&gcornish@tenforward.com Hi Everyone, This last weekend, the 20th through the 22nd of October, I ventured out making several stops on the way to my final destination, the Kelso, Washington, Red Lion Inn where I'd be attending the 32nd annual Friends of Mineralogy, Pacific Northwest Chapter, Symposium. The theme for this year's event was Minerals of South America. However, prior to my arrival, I had a few stops I'd planned to make for a bit of hoped for collecting and a dash of guaranteed hard work. My first stop is located about two hours from our place here in Port Angeles, Washington and is called Robertson Pit. Robertson is a favorite locality of mine and an old friend and together, we've shared many experiences over the years. This time, during hunting season, I was hoping to find the gates open on the access road leading into the quarry and as I rounded the last bend of blacktop and cast an eye up the dirt road leading into the woods, I was thrilled to find the gate flung wide and inviting. The last short two miles in were uneventful and soon monstrous looming piles of crushed rock were seen and then next, I was in the pit and parking. I figure there is somewhere in the neighborhood of 60,000 cubic yards of crushed rock on site, the largest accumulation I've ever seen and it's a sadness as it represents more ground worked, likely without anyone being present to collect the treasures that must have been revealed which are now lost as minute chunks of white scattered among the black gravel. Undaunted and with the sun blazing, I got out, pulled my bar from the truck and began searching. The walls were very high, essentially extremely shattered and fractured vertical death traps, and I moved along them cautiously. There were about 20 pockets exposed and while this sounds fantastic, it wasn't. Nineteen of the twenty were completely infilled by sediments and this mud coated everything and effectively destroyed the fine, delicate crystals therein. I did find one clean 4 inch pocket which was pristine and perfect, sparkling with upraised glistening crystals. Unfortunately it rested in an extremely dangerous spot and thus there it still resides. And so, another fruitless trip to Robertson behind me, the miles again fell away as I continued traveling south. My next stop is in an out of the way area and here I'm working to uncover new treasure. I've been scouting this area over several trips and am keeping my fingers crossed. But finding treasure will have to wait for another day as today, I'm back on the road again, getting closer and closer to Kelso. When I arrived, I immediately grabbed my friend Dave Waisman and together we headed out to Red Lobster for dinner (I was starving!). Afterwards, back at the Red Lion, the fun began! Most folks were already there when I finally checked in and it was great to see so many of my friends again. While the overall number of attendees was seemingly down, the quality of the people attending more than made up for this loss. And the rocks they brought, yummy! Boy, oh boy, were there some wonderful things in the displays and among the dealers stocks. For me, some of these highlights included a trio of stellar small cabinet soft pink Peruvian manganoan calcites, each showing a different morphology spectacularly ( Art Soregaroli collection ). Add to this a dozen displayed fine hubnerites, some translucent and glowing deep red in the overhead case lights. There were incredible rhodochrosite stalactite and stalagmites from Argentina ( Rice Northwest Museum of Rocks and Minerals, http://www.ricenwmuseum.org/ ) and barites in a dozen different forms from Peru. There were specimens displayed from other localities too which were quite impressive, among these was a case of large stellar tourmalines from several US and world localities ( Wayne and Deanna Sorenson collection ) and Dave's case of awesome amethyst scepters and japan law twins from Montana. Offered in the stocks of the dealers was a large array of treasures. Crystals from around the world and meteorites and fluorescent minerals and on and on. These fine folks were located in the main ballroom and in satellite rooms spread down the north wing. The main floor closed at 10:00 pm while many of the satellite dealers stayed open until the wee hours offering up their treasures. We enjoyed, as usual, very good talks again this year. Among my favorites were the part 1 and part 2, Minerals and Mines of Peru talks by Scott Werschsky. Scott owns a mineral dealership called the Miners Lunchbox ( http://www.minerslunchbox.com/ ) and during his busiest year, he made 10 trips to Peru to buy specimens! Also very much enjoyed was Tony Kampf's ( Mineral Curator of the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, http://www.nhm.org/ ) talks on The Gem Mines of Minas Gerais, Brazil and Mineral Fakes, Frauds and Fantasies. My friend Dave also gave a great talk, actually two talks compressed into one presentation titled, Gem Buying in Brazil and Photos from the Wayne and Deanna Sorenson Collection. As usual, it was a fantastic fun time until, darn it, all too soon time had run its course and Sunday afternoon approached. I took off a bit early and made it home prior to Gloria's leaving for the evening. We talked about the event until finally, I pulled out the treasures I'd picked up for her to ogle. Included in our small four piece lot was an old copy of the defunct mineral magazine Mineral Digest, and a soft cover publication titled Myrickite Fine Art Stone. Myrickite is a varietal name given to cinnabar included blood red chalcedony which is treasured in China and has been recovered from several northwestern states. To this I added two specimens, one a wonderful bi-colored red and green tourmaline included in a clear quartz capped by several smoky scepter-like overgrowths just under 3 inches long by an inch wide from the Morro Redondo Mine in Minas Gerais, Brazil and last, a nice 3 x 3 inch Butte, Montana specimen showing some type of as yet unidentified pseudomorph associated with quartz, pyrite and bornite. I can't wait for next year's event! All the very best everyone and thanks for coming along and sharing my weekends adventure. Take care, John For more information on the Pacific Northwest Chapter of the Friends of Mineralogy, consider visiting their website at... http://www.pnwfm.org/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Fri Nov 10 16:34:40 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Fri Nov 10 16:34:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rat's Nest mining in 2006 Message-ID: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> Hi Everyone, This years Denver show was terrific and I really had a great time. After the show, I headed straight to our Rat's Nest mine near Challis, Idaho and conducted this years specimen mining operation. Visiting this year was friend Chris Tucker from Montana. Chris had a good time digging and exploring and has written an update for his website detailing some of his experiences which you can enjoy by going to the link in his copied email below, one he sent out just this morning. I'll have my own paper up one of these days, in the mean time, Chris has done a great job and I think you'll enjoy the read. All the very best everyone. Take care, John >From Chris.... Hi Everyone, As I mentioned some time ago, following the Denver show I spent some time mining heulandite at the Rat's Nest claim with owner John Cornish. The Rat's Nest is the source of exceptional heulandite-Ca and associated species. Active mining has now been going on for several years and John has been able to place specimens in the collections of museums around the world. Look for a future update on John's Summer Storm claim. To read about the Rat's Nest claim and the 2006 mining operation, www.christuckerminerals.com/rats_nest.htm Regards, Chris Tucker www.christuckerminerals.com Fine minerals from Montana and the world. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From mineral.maertens at att.net Fri Nov 10 18:38:52 2006 From: mineral.maertens at att.net (Johan Maertens) Date: Fri Nov 10 18:47:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] How to ask for calcite crystals while in China In-Reply-To: <200611110202.kAB223mx001456@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: I'll be traveling in China and Taiwan (all over the place). How do I ask for calcite crystals in Chinese? Johan Maertens mineral dot maertens at att dot net Do you like minerals and other earth treasures? Visit the Mineral Collectors Page by the Mineral Club of Antwerp at http://www.minerant.org Enjoy the beauty of calcite and join the International Calcite Collectors Association Visit http://www.rockhounds.com/icca/ From rockhound at btinternet.com Sat Nov 11 00:17:48 2006 From: rockhound at btinternet.com (Neil A) Date: Sat Nov 11 00:22:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] How to ask for calcite crystals while in China In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You could ask for a Number 20 with three side helpings of number 6 and 8. :o) Have I woke up wiv my daft head on today or wot? -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]On Behalf Of Johan Maertens Sent: 11 November 2006 02:39 To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] How to ask for calcite crystals while in China I'll be traveling in China and Taiwan (all over the place). How do I ask for calcite crystals in Chinese? Johan Maertens mineral dot maertens at att dot net Do you like minerals and other earth treasures? Visit the Mineral Collectors Page by the Mineral Club of Antwerp at http://www.minerant.org Enjoy the beauty of calcite and join the International Calcite Collectors Association Visit http://www.rockhounds.com/icca/ -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Vewalden at aol.com Sat Nov 11 05:17:00 2006 From: Vewalden at aol.com (Vewalden@aol.com) Date: Sat Nov 11 05:17:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Crater Rock Museum Oregon Message-ID: Hello John, Great story and great pictures. It makes me want to just head on over there from here in Alabama. I was stationed years ago at Fort Lewis and never realized what was in the area over there in Washington and Oregon. I use to go to Port Angeles quite often to go out Salmon fishing or to do some crabbing. It is really nice in that area. I have enjoyed rocks and minerals \ geology etc all my life, but just recently have decided to try and do something about it. I have purchased several books that I have been reading, one being about Gems and Minerals in the Southeast. Anyway I enjoyed the article on Crater Rock museum. Virgil (Rick) Walden Hazel Green, Alabama --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Sat Nov 11 15:12:39 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Sat Nov 11 15:14:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Extremes; Petersen Mountain, Washoe County, Nevada References: <45551A0B.3090404@tenforward.com> Message-ID: <00f201c705e6$eb46c850$0300a8c0@Notebook> John, After a season nearly devoid of rockhounding for Julie and I, it was with great pleasure that I just finished reading your various articles. As always, thanks for sharing. Vicarious hounding is better than none at all. Keep 'em coming! John Siebel From folmstead at rcn.com Sat Nov 11 17:47:54 2006 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Sat Nov 11 17:48:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help... Message-ID: <45567D4A.2010807@rcn.com> Hi Does anyone have an e-mail and phone number for Erich Grundel?? Thanks Please answer off list. GeorgiaO From efkern at earthlink.net Sat Nov 11 21:06:04 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sat Nov 11 21:05:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga), a new island, undersea volcanism Message-ID: <002801c70618$424ad250$bbfef604@TheBlackAdder> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: Eruption, new island, and pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga) *************************** >From Rick Wunderman at the Smithsonian's Global Volcanism Network *************************** Hello and a huge thank you to all who have sent me messages about the Tonga eruption. We now know that it came from Home Reef starting 8 August 2006, and that produced copious pumice now floating past Fiji. 1. Blogs have indicated that eruptions over the ocean surface were seen on 11 August and the island had emerged by 12 August. We now know that the pumice rafts discussed in recent messages were from Home Reef (not Metis Shoal as initially stated). Home Reef is the next known volcano North of Metis Shoal (not South of Metis Shoal, as I previously stated). 2. Thanks to Scott Hughes and E.B. Joyce for noting the important links showing the new island at Home Reef: www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/disasters/new_island061106.shtml http://yacht-maiken.blogspot.com/2006/08/stone-sea-and-volcano.html One of the most impressive pumice raft photos ("pumice to the horizon") is among those shown. Many of you have kindly mentioned news reports . . . it seems that press coverage of the event has suddenly blossomed, most apparently derived from the links just mentioned. Considerable credit goes to Mary Fonua of Tongan newspaper Matangi (Tonga online). 3. In the last few days we have received some highly informative satellite remote-sensing data bearing on the eruption. To bring you all better up to date and to try to reduce duplicating efforts, I give a brief summary: OMI SO2 data --Simon Carn (U Md BC) used the Ozone Monitoring Instrument (OMI) on NASA's Aura satellite to provide the following constraints on the timing of the eruption: "OMI detected SO2 emissions from the vicinity of Home Reef beginning on 8 August . . .. Emissions appear to have peaked sometime on 8-9 August, indicated by the large SO2 cloud detected east of Tonga on 9 August. The total SO2 mass detected by OMI on 9 August was ~25 kilotons. The emission episode was over by 15 August. HYSPLIT forward trajectories indicate that the SO2 released on 8 August may have reached altitudes of 5 km or more. To our knowledge this is the first example of satellite detection of emissions from a submarine volcano. Significant scrubbing of SO2 and other soluble volcanic gases is likely during such events." ASTER images --Matt Patrick (Mich Tech Univ) asked me whether the 1984 island had completely eroded away. Although we list the summit elevation for Home Reef as -2 meters, we didn't know the answer; this was something left ambiguous in our reports. Matt found an ASTER image from 18 Nov 2005. Despite imperfect visibility that day, no island at Home Reef was apparent then. Accordingly, we hope to inquire with locals and learn the approximate date when the 1984 island eroded. --Matt also sent us an Aster image for 4 Oct 2006 where the new island is clear as are large N- and NE-directed anomalous areas (Stains in the water? Zones of pumice? Atmospheric effects?). The new island is warmer than adjacent Late island. The new island sits at these coordinates: 18.991 S, 174.762 W. (very close to Home Reef's nominal location, 18.992 S, 174.775 W) . He noted ". . . it looks like this new island resembles the 1984 island, in being elongate and about 1 km long, more or less, and having an inner pool of water." Greg Vaughan (a postdoc at JPL working with the ASTER science group on remote sensing of volcanoes) sent us an annotated Aster image zoomed in on the new island on 4 October, which he computed then had an area of 0.245 km2. He made these comments "The October 4th daytime image shows considerable activity in the water around the new Home Reef island (turbulent ash and pumice? churning up in the water) there is also a thermal plume in the same shape as the pink colored area in the attached VNIR images (ASTER channels 3-2-1 as R-G-B). Also, there are possibly several large floating pumice rafts that must be pretty big to show up in these 15-m pixels (the furthest one is about 5.5 km away from the island). The new island looks similar to, but not exactly like, the island in the photo from 1984 on the Smithsonian website." --Alain Bernard (http://www.ulb.ac.be/sciences/cvl/homereef/homereef.html ) is working with Aster images of the new island and computed some water temperatures in hot lakes visible on the ASTER thermal bands, maximum temperature measured: 64.7 C. The next issue of Bulletin of the Global Volcanism Network (BGVN 31:09) should be on our website about the middle of next week. Unfortunately, the Home Reef report in that issue will only show a small part of the story, essentially omitting the remote sensing. If you wish to see the above-mentioned imagery right away, please contact the above-mentioned researchers. I'd supply that here but I'm working at home and with a limited interface. ============================================================== From tim at orerockon.com Sun Nov 12 01:01:30 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Nov 12 01:01:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga), a new island, undersea volcanism In-Reply-To: <002801c70618$424ad250$bbfef604@TheBlackAdder> References: <002801c70618$424ad250$bbfef604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061112005353.0353a118@orerockon.com> Eruption in August, spotted in November? With all the live satellite imagery and post-911 space-based reconnaissance these days, it takes a yacht blundering into a volcano to spot a new island? Ummm, yoo hoo, is there anyone out there? Just nod if you can hear me? Is there anyone at home? Heck, maybe us country folk ain't high enough "clearance" to deserve to know. P.S. Doesn't that make you feel all warm & squishy inside? At 09:06 PM 11/11/2006, you wrote: >Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 3:19 PM >Subject: Eruption, new island, and pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga) > > >*************************** > >From Rick Wunderman at the Smithsonian's Global Volcanism Network >*************************** > >Hello and a huge thank you to all who have sent me messages about the Tonga >eruption. We now know that it came from Home Reef starting 8 August >2006, and >that produced copious pumice now floating past Fiji. > >1. Blogs have indicated that eruptions over the ocean surface were seen on 11 >August and the island had emerged by 12 August. We now know that the pumice >rafts discussed in recent messages were from Home Reef (not Metis Shoal as >initially stated). Home Reef is the next known volcano North of Metis Shoal >(not South of Metis Shoal, as I previously stated). > >2. Thanks to Scott Hughes and E.B. Joyce for noting the important >links showing >the new island at Home Reef: >www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/disasters/new_island061106.shtml >http://yacht-maiken.blogspot.com/2006/08/stone-sea-and-volcano.html > >One of the most impressive pumice raft photos ("pumice to the horizon") is >among those shown. Many of you have kindly mentioned news reports . . . it >seems that press coverage of the event has suddenly blossomed, most >apparently >derived from the links just mentioned. Considerable credit goes to >Mary Fonua >of Tongan newspaper Matangi (Tonga online). > >3. In the last few days we have received some highly informative satellite >remote-sensing data bearing on the eruption. To bring you all better >up to date >and to try to reduce duplicating efforts, I give a brief summary: > > >OMI SO2 data >--Simon Carn (U Md BC) used the Ozone Monitoring Instrument (OMI) on NASA's >Aura satellite to provide the following constraints on the timing of the >eruption: > > "OMI detected SO2 emissions from the vicinity of Home Reef beginning on 8 >August . . .. Emissions appear to have peaked sometime on 8-9 >August, indicated >by the large SO2 cloud detected east of Tonga on 9 August. The total SO2 mass >detected by OMI on 9 August was ~25 kilotons. The emission episode >was over by >15 August. HYSPLIT forward trajectories indicate that the SO2 released on 8 >August may have reached altitudes of 5 km or more. To our knowledge >this is the >first example of satellite detection of emissions from a submarine volcano. >Significant scrubbing of SO2 and other soluble volcanic gases is >likely during >such events." > > >ASTER images >--Matt Patrick (Mich Tech Univ) asked me whether the 1984 island had >completely >eroded away. Although we list the summit elevation for Home Reef as >-2 meters, >we didn't know the answer; this was something left ambiguous in our reports. >Matt found an ASTER image from 18 Nov 2005. Despite imperfect >visibility that >day, no island at Home Reef was apparent then. Accordingly, we hope to >inquire with locals and learn the approximate date when the 1984 island >eroded. > >--Matt also sent us an Aster image for 4 Oct 2006 where the new >island is clear >as are large N- and NE-directed anomalous areas (Stains in the >water? Zones of >pumice? Atmospheric effects?). The new island is warmer than adjacent Late >island. The new island sits at these coordinates: 18.991 S, 174.762 >W. (very >close to Home Reef's nominal location, 18.992 S, 174.775 W) . He >noted ". . . >it looks like this new island resembles the 1984 island, in being >elongate and >about 1 km long, more or less, and having an inner pool of water." > >Greg Vaughan (a postdoc at JPL working with the ASTER science group on remote >sensing of volcanoes) sent us an annotated Aster image zoomed in on the new >island on 4 October, which he computed then had an area of 0.245 >km2. He made >these comments "The October 4th daytime image shows considerable activity in >the water around the new Home Reef island (turbulent ash and pumice? churning >up in the water) there is also a thermal plume in the same shape as the pink >colored area in the attached VNIR images (ASTER channels 3-2-1 as R-G-B). >Also, there are possibly several large floating pumice rafts that must be >pretty big to show up in these 15-m pixels (the furthest one is about 5.5 km >away from the island). The new island looks similar to, but not exactly like, >the island in the photo from 1984 on the Smithsonian website." > >--Alain Bernard >(http://www.ulb.ac.be/sciences/cvl/homereef/homereef.html ) is >working with Aster images of the new island and computed some water >temperatures in hot lakes visible on the ASTER thermal bands, maximum >temperature measured: 64.7 C. > > >The next issue of Bulletin of the Global Volcanism Network (BGVN >31:09) should >be on our website about the middle of next week. Unfortunately, the >Home Reef >report in that issue will only show a small part of the story, essentially >omitting the remote sensing. If you wish to see the above-mentioned imagery >right away, please contact the above-mentioned researchers. >I'd supply that here but I'm working at home and with a limited interface. > >============================================================== Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From ROCKCURRIER at cs.com Sun Nov 12 04:31:50 2006 From: ROCKCURRIER at cs.com (ROCKCURRIER@cs.com) Date: Sun Nov 12 04:31:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Asking for calcite crystals in Chinese Message-ID: Whenever I go to China I ask for calcite crystals in English. So far I have gotten several tons of them so I don't think asking for them in Chinese is really necessary. Also if you are really going all over in China you would need to know which language they were speaking because they speak many different languages in China. The best place to ask for calcite in China is Changsha, capitol of Hunan State. You might be able to get some in Guilin too, but Changsha is much better. Most anywhere else, about the only calcite crystals you would get would be specimens that have filtered out of those places. In Beijing there is a big market place and there is a section devoted to minerals, crystals, carvings and other various related products but not much of it is produced locally, at least not the calcite crystals. A lot of the lapidary stuff, the rough that it is produced from is not produced in China, but rather from Brazil, South Africa and other places and cut and polished in lapidary factories in China. If you are not having much luck, head for the nearest branch of the Chinese geological survey and ask there. Someone will speak English and will be wired into the local mineral network. Rock --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dawnmfredricks at msn.com Sun Nov 12 14:38:31 2006 From: dawnmfredricks at msn.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Sun Nov 12 14:38:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting Extremes; Petersen Mountain, Washoe County, Nevada In-Reply-To: <45551A0B.3090404@tenforward.com> Message-ID: John, Thanks for the report, I can confirm the scorpions in your story, It's the only time I've seen my huband walk rock to rock! I can also vouch for the road conditions on both sides of the mountain. The Nevada side being very steep and the California side steep with refrigerator sized boulders to dodge! The only thing that could have been better with your report is acutally being there! Thanks again! Dawn From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Nov 12 18:54:23 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Nov 12 18:46:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help Message-ID: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one unique mineral. Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with different questions. For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is which is the best approach? IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and reference publications (that are usually more complete than most fieldbooks). Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid answer) -- or come back to them later. Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to identifying any known mineral? And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? Kreigh From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sun Nov 12 18:58:02 2006 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Nov 12 18:57:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000601c706cf$8941db60$d1f8d04c@LarryRush> Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that it was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: metallic/non-metallic luster color streak hardness species The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can run down the different species qualifications pretty fast. (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find it is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. Larry Rush ================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > unique mineral. > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > different questions. > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > which is the best approach? > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > fieldbooks). > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > identifying any known mineral? > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Nov 12 21:07:51 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Nov 12 21:01:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> <000601c706cf$8941db60$d1f8d04c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <4557FBC9.45B6@Tomaszewski.net> Larry, Thanks for the reminder of Kraus (et al), but they still don't cover all known minerals. I agree with you that most field guides are still better than the online resources available (at least as far as I have found). But I'm looking for a more inclusive, and more direct, solution. Someone must be sharing the best practices for mineral identification. Kreigh Lawrence Rush wrote: > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that it > was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > metallic/non-metallic luster > color > streak > hardness > species > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can run > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find it > is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > Larry Rush > > ================================== > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 > > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of > > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > > unique mineral. > > > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > > different questions. > > > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > > which is the best approach? > > > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done > > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by > > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > > fieldbooks). > > > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number > > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", > > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > > identifying any known mineral? > > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > Kreigh From turnea55 at hotmail.com Sun Nov 12 22:41:29 2006 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Sun Nov 12 22:41:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <4557FBC9.45B6@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Unfortunately, I believe it would be nearly impossible to develop a decision tree that would lead to the identification of every mineral. While there are programs and identification guides that can help with maybe 40-50% of all minerals, covering all minerals would be extremely difficult. For instance: there now well over 5000 known minerals. With the advancemnt of SEM, ore microprobe, etc. some 50-100 minerals have been discovered in each of the past 5 years or so. The only reason why more haven't been listed that the IMA hasn't approved them yet (and typically hasn't had the time to approve them yet). Many many minerals are identical in appearance and physical identification markers. Take the amphibole series (in the hundreds of minerals). Run all physical tests, they would basically come out the exact same. The same goes true for lithium micas. Their series has some 14 end members (a 14-dimensional phase diagram). The only real differences are ratios of differnent cations and different lengths of atomic bonds. XRD, SEM, etc. probably can't even distinguish these differences. An XRD would simply match the peaks as a lithium mica or lepidolite. A large percentage of minerals are only found in one locality, are microscopic, and often in just a few boulders. There is no practical reason to include them in identification guides or to spend time putting them into a computer analysis. Usually there is a paper written on how this new zeolite has a slightly different % of sodium vs. aluminum atoms or whether a refined atomic structure should cause a mineral to be called monazite-Ce, monazite-La, or monazite-Nd. Even using high-tech equipment typically requires some knowlege of what you expect to find. Run an XRD spectrum on a mineral and you can get dozens of good matches. However, the way to find out what you actually have is to eliminate what you know is not there. For instance, if you analyzie a mafic rock and a good match is K-spar, this can probably be eliminated. Same with SEM--to run a good EDS spectrum, you often need to have a good idea of the elements in the material. This allows you to use the right type of filament at the right kV for a proper length of time to get maximized results. I used to run uranium phosphate minerals on both XRD and SEM. Because most phosphates and other "trash can" minerals can incorporate numerous elements into their structures, if I had no idea what I was analyzing, the XRD data would show some 50+ matches and the SEM/EDS analysis would show U, P, or Ca/Na. Neither of these would be helpful. I find the most extensive list of minerals and their properties online at Athena Mineralogy. I hope this helps, just trying to add some insight. I do like the idea though as I try to learn and recognize as many possible minerals as I can as well. Andrew Turner Victorville, CA >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:07:51 -0500 > >Larry, > >Thanks for the reminder of Kraus (et al), but they still don't cover all >known minerals. > >I agree with you that most field guides are still better than the online >resources available (at least as far as I have found). > >But I'm looking for a more inclusive, and more direct, solution. Someone >must be sharing the best practices for mineral identification. > >Kreigh > > > > > >Lawrence Rush wrote: > > > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that >it > > was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > > > metallic/non-metallic luster > > color > > streak > > hardness > > species > > > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can >run > > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find >it > > is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > > > Larry Rush > > > > ================================== > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > > > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play >20 > > > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > > > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > > > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > > > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half >of > > > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > > > unique mineral. > > > > > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > > > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > > > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > > > different questions. > > > > > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > > > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > > > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > > > which is the best approach? > > > > > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > > > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is >done > > > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, >by > > > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > > > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > > > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > > > fieldbooks). > > > > > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > > > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum >number > > > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > > > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown >mineral", > > > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > > > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > > > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > > > > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > > > identifying any known mineral? > > > > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > > > Kreigh > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 13 06:52:03 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Mon Nov 13 06:52:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <000601c706cf$8941db60$d1f8d04c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <20061113145204.18914.qmail@web34309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's also J.V. Lewis's Determinative Mineralogy. It not only had tables like Kraus & Hunt (which was my very first mineral book) based on physical properties, but also tables based on "wet" chemical and blowpipe analysis. Unfortunately, it's even more out of date than Kraus & Hunt. My copy is dated 1921! Something on chemical analysis has to be included, though. As Andrew pointed out, many species can only be distinguished by analysis. And then there's crystallography. In a massive specimen, you'd need X-ray to distinguish between dimorphs. I've tried to build tables just for single localities and gotten bogged down pretty quickly. Jim Daly Lawrence Rush wrote: Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that it was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: metallic/non-metallic luster color streak hardness species The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can run down the different species qualifications pretty fast. (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find it is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. Larry Rush ================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > unique mineral. > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > different questions. > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > which is the best approach? > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > fieldbooks). > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > identifying any known mineral? > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kadok at infowest.com Mon Nov 13 08:39:24 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Mon Nov 13 08:39:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002401c70742$4750c4a0$0200a8c0@kadok> I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least number of questions. For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is which is the best approach? Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid answer) -- or come back to them later. Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to identifying any known mineral? And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? Kreigh Kreigh -- I think you would have to write that one yourself!!! LOL! Margaret -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- BEGIN-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS ------------------------------------------------------ Teach Infowest Spam Trap if this mail (ID 28635816) is spam: Spam: http://spamtrap.infowest.com/canit/b.php?c=s&i=28635816&m=cafe28b4529a Not spam: http://spamtrap.infowest.com/canit/b.php?c=n&i=28635816&m=cafe28b4529a Forget vote: http://spamtrap.infowest.com/canit/b.php?c=f&i=28635816&m=cafe28b4529a ------------------------------------------------------ END-ANTISPAM-VOTING-LINKS From tjokela at execulink.com Mon Nov 13 09:35:42 2006 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Mon Nov 13 09:37:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <002401c70742$4750c4a0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <001301c7074a$24d965f0$6400a8c0@Junior> > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > Kreigh Basically the best way to get started in mineral ID is by building a mineralogy library, or learning how to really use a good local university library. The mineral literature is a powerful tool; even rather obscure things have often been covered by somebody out there. This is not exactly a small job. Start with a complete set of Min Recs. There's an article in Min Rec on how to thoroughly research a locality; the list of resources to check is about a page long. Learn to search the web to reveal references to unpublished Ph.D. theses and other goldmines. Secondly, study the locality. Most mineral localities are really quite simple, with under twenty or so species I'd imagine. Even complex localities like Saint-Hilaire though, can be broken down into different geological units, and hard study will provide answers. If it's a limestone quarry, the mineralogy will be quite simple; even pegmatites can often be quite simple, and are broken down into different classifications, which will narrow your search even further. Thirdly, cultivate relationships with other collectors and, if possible, academics. The pool of knowledge out there to be tapped is staggering and your fellow collectors are often able to help. Attend shows and symposia, join clubs. If you have a local museum or university with good analytical equipment, ask for a tour, you may find them more than willing to help you out. Remember, a lot of these people need to prove to their higher-ups that they're involved with the community. Students in particular, or just good researchers, may be eager to study interesting things provided by serious collectors. Experience and learning are also powerful tools. Get a handle on basic geology, mineralogy, crystallography, chemistry, etc., and you'll have a good set of tools to approach unknowns with, allowing you to rule out a lot of possibilities. The pocket guides yap on about things like SG, cleavage, hardness, and streak testing; all very well and interesting but not the way to ID minerals in the real world, except as sort of a subconcious background filter that rules out certain things when you first find an unknown. The thought of ID'ing minerals by color is laughable, I really don't know why they continue to publish such nonsense. In the real world mineral ID is better done by studying the literature, the locality, and consulting other collectors and the pros. In the end, though, mineralogy is not as hard and fast a science as many think. It's pretty wiggly. There's a lot of minerals out there, they're highly variable, and seldom conform to the textbook description. I'd imagine every hardcore collector out there, especially micromounters, has a drawer or three of interesting unknowns. Affix an arrow pointing to the crystal of interest and a proper label, and file it away for the day when analytical equipment drops in price. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The minerals of Ontario: http://www.ontariominerals.com Minerals through the microscope: http://www.micromounts.com From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 13 10:38:37 2006 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon Nov 13 10:38:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <001301c7074a$24d965f0$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <212690.34380.qm@web51007.mail.yahoo.com> This doesn't help the original requester but might be interesting to collectors of rock collecting memorabilia. In the UBCA to LCA(Upper Before Computer Age--Lower Computer Age) there was a mechanical decision-tree-sorter for assisting in Mineral ID. I've one in storage so I don't recall the author/inventor. However, it consists of a mini IBM punchcard-type ID kit with around 100-150 of the more common minerals, each on a single card plus a metal rod akin to a knitting needle. The cards (2"x5") are notched in "fields" around the edge of the card corresponding to characteristics of the specimen at hand. Each card has mineral data printed on both sides with the holes around the entire edge. To use, one holds the stack with all cards shuttled into alignment as in a deck of playing cards, the rod is inserted through the edge "characteristic"slot for the identified feature, i.e. "Hardness 4-5". Then lift the rod up. The mineral cards NOT hanging on the rod are the candidates. One goes to the next feature in succession such as luster, specific gravity, color or etc., until all identifiable features of the specimen have been made. One is then left with a 1) a few candidates, 2)a single candidate or 3)none--usually a few. I bought it as a curio of the past but frankly by the time one learns all the variations of habit, luster, fracture, cleavage, color, etc to identify the specimen correctly, one pretty much should know the full set of minerals on sight. Probably an Achilles heel to any identification system using the classic field tests. Elton PS: Most under 45 have never seen punch cards-- think of "hanging or pregnant" chads circa 2000 From julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Nov 13 13:01:35 2006 From: julie at pandemoniumgraphics.com (Julie Siebel) Date: Mon Nov 13 13:03:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <00ee01c70766$ee49a190$0200a8c0@warren> Is there an access database that includes all the mineral variables? If so, it'd be pretty simple to create a key based on that. Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 6:54 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > unique mineral. > From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Nov 13 16:13:28 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Nov 13 16:15:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Almost OT References: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> <00ee01c70766$ee49a190$0200a8c0@warren> Message-ID: <006801c70781$cc03df90$0300a8c0@Notebook> Clicking through the TV channels last night trying to find something worthwhile, I came across an animated Japanese movie titled, "Grave of the Fireflies". I didn't watch it but one of the voice actors went by the name of, "Rhoda Chrosite". Thought it was cute enough to share. John From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Mon Nov 13 16:37:00 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Mon Nov 13 16:37:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <002401c70742$4750c4a0$0200a8c0@kadok> <001301c7074a$24d965f0$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <004901c70785$02959230$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Tim hit the nail on the head. Great response! He helped with with some unidentified specimens after my Bancroft trip several years ago. I have identified several rare minerals from the fluorspar district by their physical properties - smithsonite, hemimorphite, hydrozincite, possibly aurichalcite. There are other micros that I still have no idea because of their size. Another time someone wasn't sure if the white stuff on the dolomite was an aragonite or barite crust. A drop of acid answered that question quickly! Sometimes it's not what you know, it is who you know! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Jokela Jr." To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for >> identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive >> overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? >> >> Kreigh > > Basically the best way to get started in mineral ID is by building a > mineralogy library, or learning how to really use a good local university > library. The mineral literature is a powerful tool; even rather obscure > things have often been covered by somebody out there. This is not exactly > a small job. Start with a complete set of Min Recs. There's an article in > Min Rec on how to thoroughly research a locality; the list of resources to > check is about a page long. Learn to search the web to reveal references > to unpublished Ph.D. theses and other goldmines. > > Secondly, study the locality. Most mineral localities are really quite > simple, with under twenty or so species I'd imagine. Even complex > localities like Saint-Hilaire though, can be broken down into different > geological units, and hard study will provide answers. If it's a limestone > quarry, the mineralogy will be quite simple; even pegmatites can often be > quite simple, and are broken down into different classifications, which > will narrow your search even further. > > Thirdly, cultivate relationships with other collectors and, if possible, > academics. The pool of knowledge out there to be tapped is staggering and > your fellow collectors are often able to help. Attend shows and symposia, > join clubs. If you have a local museum or university with good analytical > equipment, ask for a tour, you may find them more than willing to help you > out. Remember, a lot of these people need to prove to their higher-ups > that they're involved with the community. Students in particular, or just > good researchers, may be eager to study interesting things provided by > serious collectors. > > Experience and learning are also powerful tools. Get a handle on basic > geology, mineralogy, crystallography, chemistry, etc., and you'll have a > good set of tools to approach unknowns with, allowing you to rule out a > lot of possibilities. The pocket guides yap on about things like SG, > cleavage, hardness, and streak testing; all very well and interesting but > not the way to ID minerals in the real world, except as sort of a > subconcious background filter that rules out certain things when you first > find an unknown. The thought of ID'ing minerals by color is laughable, I > really don't know why they continue to publish such nonsense. In the real > world mineral ID is better done by studying the literature, the locality, > and consulting other collectors and the pros. > > In the end, though, mineralogy is not as hard and fast a science as many > think. It's pretty wiggly. There's a lot of minerals out there, they're > highly variable, and seldom conform to the textbook description. I'd > imagine every hardcore collector out there, especially micromounters, has > a drawer or three of interesting unknowns. Affix an arrow pointing to the > crystal of interest and a proper label, and file it away for the day when > analytical equipment drops in price. > > Cheers, > > Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com > Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com > The minerals of Ontario: http://www.ontariominerals.com > Minerals through the microscope: http://www.micromounts.com > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Ted at crystalgems.com Mon Nov 13 17:30:28 2006 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Mon Nov 13 17:33:21 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <006501c70779$11273d50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Kreigh: Uh, noble thought at the minimum; but isn't it just a little early for the holiday wish list? Just teasing, Ted -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one unique mineral. Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with different questions. For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is which is the best approach? IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and reference publications (that are usually more complete than most fieldbooks). Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid answer) -- or come back to them later. Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to identifying any known mineral? And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Mon Nov 13 20:02:46 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Mon Nov 13 20:02:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga), a new island, undersea volcanism Message-ID: If you didn't go to the link and see these pics, you must not be into volcanoes...WOW!!! Glenn > Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 01:01:30 -0800> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> From: tim@orerockon.com> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga), a new island, undersea volcanism> > Eruption in August, spotted in November? With all the live satellite > imagery and post-911 space-based reconnaissance these days, it takes > a yacht blundering into a volcano to spot a new island? Ummm, yoo > hoo, is there anyone out there? Just nod if you can hear me? Is there > anyone at home? Heck, maybe us country folk ain't high enough > "clearance" to deserve to know.> > P.S. Doesn't that make you feel all warm & squishy inside?> > At 09:06 PM 11/11/2006, you wrote:> > >Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 3:19 PM> >Subject: Eruption, new island, and pumice rafts from Home Reef (Central Tonga)> >> >> >***************************> > >From Rick Wunderman at the Smithsonian's Global Volcanism Network> >***************************> >> >Hello and a huge thank you to all who have sent me messages about the Tonga> >eruption. We now know that it came from Home Reef starting 8 August > >2006, and> >that produced copious pumice now floating past Fiji.> >> >1. Blogs have indicated that eruptions over the ocean surface were seen on 11> >August and the island had emerged by 12 August. We now know that the pumice> >rafts discussed in recent messages were from Home Reef (not Metis Shoal as> >initially stated). Home Reef is the next known volcano North of Metis Shoal> >(not South of Metis Shoal, as I previously stated).> >> >2. Thanks to Scott Hughes and E.B. Joyce for noting the important > >links showing> >the new island at Home Reef:> >www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/disasters/new_island061106.shtml> >http://yacht-maiken.blogspot.com/2006/08/stone-sea-and-volcano.html> >> >One of the most impressive pumice raft photos ("pumice to the horizon") is> >among those shown. Many of you have kindly mentioned news reports . . . it> >seems that press coverage of the event has suddenly blossomed, most > >apparently> >derived from the links just mentioned. Considerable credit goes to > >Mary Fonua> >of Tongan newspaper Matangi (Tonga online).> >> >3. In the last few days we have received some highly informative satellite> >remote-sensing data bearing on the eruption. To bring you all better > >up to date> >and to try to reduce duplicating efforts, I give a brief summary:> >> >> >OMI SO2 data> >--Simon Carn (U Md BC) used the Ozone Monitoring Instrument (OMI) on NASA's> >Aura satellite to provide the following constraints on the timing of the> >eruption:> >> > "OMI detected SO2 emissions from the vicinity of Home Reef beginning on 8> >August . . .. Emissions appear to have peaked sometime on 8-9 > >August, indicated> >by the large SO2 cloud detected east of Tonga on 9 August. The total SO2 mass> >detected by OMI on 9 August was ~25 kilotons. The emission episode > >was over by> >15 August. HYSPLIT forward trajectories indicate that the SO2 released on 8> >August may have reached altitudes of 5 km or more. To our knowledge > >this is the> >first example of satellite detection of emissions from a submarine volcano.> >Significant scrubbing of SO2 and other soluble volcanic gases is > >likely during> >such events."> >> >> >ASTER images> >--Matt Patrick (Mich Tech Univ) asked me whether the 1984 island had > >completely> >eroded away. Although we list the summit elevation for Home Reef as > >-2 meters,> >we didn't know the answer; this was something left ambiguous in our reports.> >Matt found an ASTER image from 18 Nov 2005. Despite imperfect > >visibility that> >day, no island at Home Reef was apparent then. Accordingly, we hope to> >inquire with locals and learn the approximate date when the 1984 island> >eroded.> >> >--Matt also sent us an Aster image for 4 Oct 2006 where the new > >island is clear> >as are large N- and NE-directed anomalous areas (Stains in the > >water? Zones of> >pumice? Atmospheric effects?). The new island is warmer than adjacent Late> >island. The new island sits at these coordinates: 18.991 S, 174.762 > >W. (very> >close to Home Reef's nominal location, 18.992 S, 174.775 W) . He > >noted ". . .> >it looks like this new island resembles the 1984 island, in being > >elongate and> >about 1 km long, more or less, and having an inner pool of water."> >> >Greg Vaughan (a postdoc at JPL working with the ASTER science group on remote> >sensing of volcanoes) sent us an annotated Aster image zoomed in on the new> >island on 4 October, which he computed then had an area of 0.245 > >km2. He made> >these comments "The October 4th daytime image shows considerable activity in> >the water around the new Home Reef island (turbulent ash and pumice? churning> >up in the water) there is also a thermal plume in the same shape as the pink> >colored area in the attached VNIR images (ASTER channels 3-2-1 as R-G-B).> >Also, there are possibly several large floating pumice rafts that must be> >pretty big to show up in these 15-m pixels (the furthest one is about 5.5 km> >away from the island). The new island looks similar to, but not exactly like,> >the island in the photo from 1984 on the Smithsonian website."> >> >--Alain Bernard > >(http://www.ulb.ac.be/sciences/cvl/homereef/homereef.html ) is> >working with Aster images of the new island and computed some water> >temperatures in hot lakes visible on the ASTER thermal bands, maximum> >temperature measured: 64.7 C.> >> >> >The next issue of Bulletin of the Global Volcanism Network (BGVN > >31:09) should> >be on our website about the middle of next week. Unfortunately, the > >Home Reef> >report in that issue will only show a small part of the story, essentially> >omitting the remote sensing. If you wish to see the above-mentioned imagery> >right away, please contact the above-mentioned researchers.> >I'd supply that here but I'm working at home and with a limited interface.> >> >==============================================================> > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com> Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > -- > _______________________________________________> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> Subscription Services:> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://www.windowsonecare.com/purchase/trial.aspx?sc_cid=wl_wlmail --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Nov 13 20:20:12 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 13 20:10:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: Message-ID: <45594188.1EED@Tomaszewski.net> Andrew, I appreciate your insights. I understand that classical tests are not going to be enough to identify all minerals. But classical tests, organized into a decision tree, should identify close to half of the known minerals, and give some clues as to the rest. There is no reason (other than time and effort to search the literature) that the rest of them couldn't be included into a decision tree via the more advanced tests being used today. I'll agree it will be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible. If someone can convince the IMA that they have found a new mineral, they must have found some test sequence that proves it to be unique. This same sequence can be incorporated into a decision tree. Kreigh Andrew Turner wrote: > > Unfortunately, I believe it would be nearly impossible to develop a decision > tree that would lead to the identification of every mineral. While there > are programs and identification guides that can help with maybe 40-50% of > all minerals, covering all minerals would be extremely difficult. For > instance: > > there now well over 5000 known minerals. With the advancemnt of SEM, ore > microprobe, etc. some 50-100 minerals have been discovered in each of the > past 5 years or so. The only reason why more haven't been listed that the > IMA hasn't approved them yet (and typically hasn't had the time to approve > them yet). > > Many many minerals are identical in appearance and physical identification > markers. Take the amphibole series (in the hundreds of minerals). Run all > physical tests, they would basically come out the exact same. The same goes > true for lithium micas. Their series has some 14 end members (a > 14-dimensional phase diagram). The only real differences are ratios of > differnent cations and different lengths of atomic bonds. XRD, SEM, etc. > probably can't even distinguish these differences. > An XRD would simply match the peaks as a lithium mica or lepidolite. > > A large percentage of minerals are only found in one locality, are > microscopic, and often in just a few boulders. There is no practical reason > to include them in identification guides or to spend time putting them into > a computer analysis. Usually there is a paper written on how this new > zeolite has a slightly different % of sodium vs. aluminum atoms or whether a > refined atomic structure should cause a mineral to be called monazite-Ce, > monazite-La, or monazite-Nd. > > Even using high-tech equipment typically requires some knowlege of what you > expect to find. Run an XRD spectrum on a mineral and you can get dozens of > good matches. However, the way to find out what you actually have is to > eliminate what you know is not there. For instance, if you analyzie a mafic > rock and a good match is K-spar, this can probably be eliminated. Same with > SEM--to run a good EDS spectrum, you often need to have a good idea of the > elements in the material. This allows you to use the right type of filament > at the right kV for a proper length of time to get maximized results. I > used to run uranium phosphate minerals on both XRD and SEM. Because most > phosphates and other "trash can" minerals can incorporate numerous elements > into their structures, if I had no idea what I was analyzing, the XRD data > would show some 50+ matches and the SEM/EDS analysis would show U, P, or > Ca/Na. Neither of these would be helpful. > > I find the most extensive list of minerals and their properties online at > Athena Mineralogy. I hope this helps, just trying to add some insight. I > do like the idea though as I try to learn and recognize as many possible > minerals as I can as well. > > Andrew Turner > Victorville, CA > > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:07:51 -0500 > > > >Larry, > > > >Thanks for the reminder of Kraus (et al), but they still don't cover all > >known minerals. > > > >I agree with you that most field guides are still better than the online > >resources available (at least as far as I have found). > > > >But I'm looking for a more inclusive, and more direct, solution. Someone > >must be sharing the best practices for mineral identification. > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > >Lawrence Rush wrote: > > > > > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > > > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that > >it > > > was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > > > > > metallic/non-metallic luster > > > color > > > streak > > > hardness > > > species > > > > > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can > >run > > > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > > > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > > > > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find > >it > > > is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > > > > > Larry Rush > > > > > > ================================== > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > > > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > > > > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play > >20 > > > > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > > > > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > > > > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > > > > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half > >of > > > > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > > > > unique mineral. > > > > > > > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > > > > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > > > > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > > > > different questions. > > > > > > > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > > > > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > > > > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > > > > which is the best approach? > > > > > > > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > > > > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is > >done > > > > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, > >by > > > > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > > > > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > > > > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > > > > fieldbooks). > > > > > > > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > > > > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum > >number > > > > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > > > > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown > >mineral", > > > > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > > > > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > > > > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > > > > > > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > > > > identifying any known mineral? > > > > > > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > > > > > Kreigh From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Nov 13 20:29:58 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 13 20:19:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <002401c70742$4750c4a0$0200a8c0@kadok> <001301c7074a$24d965f0$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <455943D0.5D@Tomaszewski.net> Tim, I think you are making my point -- we should be capturing the literature into a subject matter expert program so that each of us does not need to take the time to search it. Kreigh Tim Jokela Jr. wrote: > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > Kreigh > > Basically the best way to get started in mineral ID is by building a > mineralogy library, or learning how to really use a good local university > library. The mineral literature is a powerful tool; even rather obscure > things have often been covered by somebody out there. This is not exactly a > small job. Start with a complete set of Min Recs. There's an article in Min > Rec on how to thoroughly research a locality; the list of resources to check > is about a page long. Learn to search the web to reveal references to > unpublished Ph.D. theses and other goldmines. > > Secondly, study the locality. Most mineral localities are really quite > simple, with under twenty or so species I'd imagine. Even complex > localities like Saint-Hilaire though, can be broken down into different > geological units, and hard study will provide answers. If it's a limestone > quarry, the mineralogy will be quite simple; even pegmatites can often be > quite simple, and are broken down into different classifications, which will > narrow your search even further. > > Thirdly, cultivate relationships with other collectors and, if possible, > academics. The pool of knowledge out there to be tapped is staggering and > your fellow collectors are often able to help. Attend shows and symposia, > join clubs. If you have a local museum or university with good analytical > equipment, ask for a tour, you may find them more than willing to help you > out. Remember, a lot of these people need to prove to their higher-ups that > they're involved with the community. Students in particular, or just good > researchers, may be eager to study interesting things provided by serious > collectors. > > Experience and learning are also powerful tools. Get a handle on basic > geology, mineralogy, crystallography, chemistry, etc., and you'll have a > good set of tools to approach unknowns with, allowing you to rule out a lot > of possibilities. The pocket guides yap on about things like SG, cleavage, > hardness, and streak testing; all very well and interesting but not the way > to ID minerals in the real world, except as sort of a subconcious background > filter that rules out certain things when you first find an unknown. The > thought of ID'ing minerals by color is laughable, I really don't know why > they continue to publish such nonsense. In the real world mineral ID is > better done by studying the literature, the locality, and consulting other > collectors and the pros. > > In the end, though, mineralogy is not as hard and fast a science as many > think. It's pretty wiggly. There's a lot of minerals out there, they're > highly variable, and seldom conform to the textbook description. I'd imagine > every hardcore collector out there, especially micromounters, has a drawer > or three of interesting unknowns. Affix an arrow pointing to the crystal of > interest and a proper label, and file it away for the day when analytical > equipment drops in price. > > Cheers, > > Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com > Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com > The minerals of Ontario: http://www.ontariominerals.com > Minerals through the microscope: http://www.micromounts.com From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Nov 13 20:46:50 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 13 20:36:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <006501c70779$11273d50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <455947C2.5B5E@Tomaszewski.net> Ted, I get teased every year about some of the chronic/reappearing items on my Christmas Wish List. But you know, every now and then, one of them shows up under the Tree. I can still be happy with dreams that are 'not this year'. Kreigh Ted Kowalski wrote: > > Kreigh: > Uh, noble thought at the minimum; but isn't it just a little early for the > holiday wish list? > > Just teasing, > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh > Tomaszewski > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > unique mineral. > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > different questions. > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > which is the best approach? > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > fieldbooks). > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > identifying any known mineral? > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > Kreigh From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 14 07:27:23 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Tue Nov 14 07:27:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <45594188.1EED@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <20061114152724.79349.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I agree with the statement that a decision tree could be used to identify the more common minerals.This is what you have in Kraus & Hunt, Lewis, etc. in print form. The problem is that these tables don't (and can't) cover the more esoteric species. The minerals covered are the ones that can probably be identified by sight most of the time. The rarer minerals that aren't in the tables are usually found as micros. It's difficult or impossible to run hardness, specific gravity, etc. on a micro specimen. The key properties in doing sight identification on micros would include crystal habit, color and associations. These are often related to the locality. You'd have to have a decision tree built for each locality- a daunting prospect, but interesting if you like challenges. Jim Daly Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: Andrew, I appreciate your insights. I understand that classical tests are not going to be enough to identify all minerals. But classical tests, organized into a decision tree, should identify close to half of the known minerals, and give some clues as to the rest. There is no reason (other than time and effort to search the literature) that the rest of them couldn't be included into a decision tree via the more advanced tests being used today. I'll agree it will be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible. If someone can convince the IMA that they have found a new mineral, they must have found some test sequence that proves it to be unique. This same sequence can be incorporated into a decision tree. Kreigh Andrew Turner wrote: > > Unfortunately, I believe it would be nearly impossible to develop a decision > tree that would lead to the identification of every mineral. While there > are programs and identification guides that can help with maybe 40-50% of > all minerals, covering all minerals would be extremely difficult. For > instance: > > there now well over 5000 known minerals. With the advancemnt of SEM, ore > microprobe, etc. some 50-100 minerals have been discovered in each of the > past 5 years or so. The only reason why more haven't been listed that the > IMA hasn't approved them yet (and typically hasn't had the time to approve > them yet). > > Many many minerals are identical in appearance and physical identification > markers. Take the amphibole series (in the hundreds of minerals). Run all > physical tests, they would basically come out the exact same. The same goes > true for lithium micas. Their series has some 14 end members (a > 14-dimensional phase diagram). The only real differences are ratios of > differnent cations and different lengths of atomic bonds. XRD, SEM, etc. > probably can't even distinguish these differences. > An XRD would simply match the peaks as a lithium mica or lepidolite. > > A large percentage of minerals are only found in one locality, are > microscopic, and often in just a few boulders. There is no practical reason > to include them in identification guides or to spend time putting them into > a computer analysis. Usually there is a paper written on how this new > zeolite has a slightly different % of sodium vs. aluminum atoms or whether a > refined atomic structure should cause a mineral to be called monazite-Ce, > monazite-La, or monazite-Nd. > > Even using high-tech equipment typically requires some knowlege of what you > expect to find. Run an XRD spectrum on a mineral and you can get dozens of > good matches. However, the way to find out what you actually have is to > eliminate what you know is not there. For instance, if you analyzie a mafic > rock and a good match is K-spar, this can probably be eliminated. Same with > SEM--to run a good EDS spectrum, you often need to have a good idea of the > elements in the material. This allows you to use the right type of filament > at the right kV for a proper length of time to get maximized results. I > used to run uranium phosphate minerals on both XRD and SEM. Because most > phosphates and other "trash can" minerals can incorporate numerous elements > into their structures, if I had no idea what I was analyzing, the XRD data > would show some 50+ matches and the SEM/EDS analysis would show U, P, or > Ca/Na. Neither of these would be helpful. > > I find the most extensive list of minerals and their properties online at > Athena Mineralogy. I hope this helps, just trying to add some insight. I > do like the idea though as I try to learn and recognize as many possible > minerals as I can as well. > > Andrew Turner > Victorville, CA > > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:07:51 -0500 > > > >Larry, > > > >Thanks for the reminder of Kraus (et al), but they still don't cover all > >known minerals. > > > >I agree with you that most field guides are still better than the online > >resources available (at least as far as I have found). > > > >But I'm looking for a more inclusive, and more direct, solution. Someone > >must be sharing the best practices for mineral identification. > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > >Lawrence Rush wrote: > > > > > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > > > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that > >it > > > was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > > > > > metallic/non-metallic luster > > > color > > > streak > > > hardness > > > species > > > > > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can > >run > > > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > > > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > > > > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find > >it > > > is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > > > > > Larry Rush > > > > > > ================================== > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > > > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > > > > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play > >20 > > > > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > > > > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > > > > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > > > > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half > >of > > > > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > > > > unique mineral. > > > > > > > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > > > > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > > > > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > > > > different questions. > > > > > > > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > > > > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > > > > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > > > > which is the best approach? > > > > > > > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > > > > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is > >done > > > > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, > >by > > > > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > > > > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > > > > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > > > > fieldbooks). > > > > > > > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > > > > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum > >number > > > > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > > > > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown > >mineral", > > > > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > > > > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > > > > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > > > > > > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > > > > identifying any known mineral? > > > > > > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > > > > > Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Tue Nov 14 08:01:46 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Tue Nov 14 08:19:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help / Kraus, Hunt & Lewis References: <20061114152724.79349.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c70806$30b19980$effcf604@TheBlackAdder> This discussion is helpful in more ways than I would have guessed. For one, the Kraus, Hunt & Ramsdell book which I didn't have but will soon. The 1951 edition from Amazon.com, used, good condition, bought yesterday for $17. Thanks, Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Daly" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:27 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help I agree with the statement that a decision tree could be used to identify the more common minerals.This is what you have in Kraus & Hunt, Lewis, etc. in print form. The problem is that these tables don't (and can't) cover the more esoteric species. The minerals covered are the ones that can probably be identified by sight most of the time. The rarer minerals that aren't in the tables are usually found as micros. It's difficult or impossible to run hardness, specific gravity, etc. on a micro specimen. The key properties in doing sight identification on micros would include crystal habit, color and associations. These are often related to the locality. You'd have to have a decision tree built for each locality- a daunting prospect, but interesting if you like challenges. Jim Daly Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: Andrew, I appreciate your insights. I understand that classical tests are not going to be enough to identify all minerals. But classical tests, organized into a decision tree, should identify close to half of the known minerals, and give some clues as to the rest. There is no reason (other than time and effort to search the literature) that the rest of them couldn't be included into a decision tree via the more advanced tests being used today. I'll agree it will be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible. If someone can convince the IMA that they have found a new mineral, they must have found some test sequence that proves it to be unique. This same sequence can be incorporated into a decision tree. Kreigh Andrew Turner wrote: > > Unfortunately, I believe it would be nearly impossible to develop a decision > tree that would lead to the identification of every mineral. While there > are programs and identification guides that can help with maybe 40-50% of > all minerals, covering all minerals would be extremely difficult. For > instance: > > there now well over 5000 known minerals. With the advancemnt of SEM, ore > microprobe, etc. some 50-100 minerals have been discovered in each of the > past 5 years or so. The only reason why more haven't been listed that the > IMA hasn't approved them yet (and typically hasn't had the time to approve > them yet). > > Many many minerals are identical in appearance and physical identification > markers. Take the amphibole series (in the hundreds of minerals). Run all > physical tests, they would basically come out the exact same. The same goes > true for lithium micas. Their series has some 14 end members (a > 14-dimensional phase diagram). The only real differences are ratios of > differnent cations and different lengths of atomic bonds. XRD, SEM, etc. > probably can't even distinguish these differences. > An XRD would simply match the peaks as a lithium mica or lepidolite. > > A large percentage of minerals are only found in one locality, are > microscopic, and often in just a few boulders. There is no practical reason > to include them in identification guides or to spend time putting them into > a computer analysis. Usually there is a paper written on how this new > zeolite has a slightly different % of sodium vs. aluminum atoms or whether a > refined atomic structure should cause a mineral to be called monazite-Ce, > monazite-La, or monazite-Nd. > > Even using high-tech equipment typically requires some knowlege of what you > expect to find. Run an XRD spectrum on a mineral and you can get dozens of > good matches. However, the way to find out what you actually have is to > eliminate what you know is not there. For instance, if you analyzie a mafic > rock and a good match is K-spar, this can probably be eliminated. Same with > SEM--to run a good EDS spectrum, you often need to have a good idea of the > elements in the material. This allows you to use the right type of filament > at the right kV for a proper length of time to get maximized results. I > used to run uranium phosphate minerals on both XRD and SEM. Because most > phosphates and other "trash can" minerals can incorporate numerous elements > into their structures, if I had no idea what I was analyzing, the XRD data > would show some 50+ matches and the SEM/EDS analysis would show U, P, or > Ca/Na. Neither of these would be helpful. > > I find the most extensive list of minerals and their properties online at > Athena Mineralogy. I hope this helps, just trying to add some insight. I > do like the idea though as I try to learn and recognize as many possible > minerals as I can as well. > > Andrew Turner > Victorville, CA > > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >collectors" > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:07:51 -0500 > > > >Larry, > > > >Thanks for the reminder of Kraus (et al), but they still don't cover all > >known minerals. > > > >I agree with you that most field guides are still better than the online > >resources available (at least as far as I have found). > > > >But I'm looking for a more inclusive, and more direct, solution. Someone > >must be sharing the best practices for mineral identification. > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > >Lawrence Rush wrote: > > > > > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > > > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that > >it > > > was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > > > > > metallic/non-metallic luster > > > color > > > streak > > > hardness > > > species > > > > > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can > >run > > > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > > > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > > > > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find > >it > > > is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > > > > > Larry Rush > > > > > > ================================== > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > > > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > > > > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play > >20 > > > > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > > > > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > > > > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > > > > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half > >of > > > > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > > > > unique mineral. > > > > > > > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > > > > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > > > > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > > > > different questions. > > > > > > > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > > > > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > > > > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > > > > which is the best approach? > > > > > > > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > > > > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is > >done > > > > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, > >by > > > > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > > > > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > > > > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > > > > fieldbooks). > > > > > > > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > > > > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum > >number > > > > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > > > > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown > >mineral", > > > > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > > > > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > > > > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > > > > > > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > > > > identifying any known mineral? > > > > > > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > > > > > Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tjokela at execulink.com Tue Nov 14 08:53:03 2006 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Tue Nov 14 08:51:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <002401c70742$4750c4a0$0200a8c0@kadok><001301c7074a$24d965f0$6400a8c0@Junior> <455943D0.5D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002401c7080d$5a134d80$6400a8c0@Junior> A couple of other things I remembered that might be of interest: I saw an ad for just this sort of thing in a very old magazine; basically purported to enable you to ID any mineral in a couple of minutes. It assigned numbers to everything; think you had to add them up then flip thru the tables to find your mineral. Can't remember the name of it, was from the seventies or so, but it's a lead. Secondly, Shannon Minerals used to offer a program on floppy that let you search by elements. Eg. if you determined that your UK had Cu, Si, and Pb, you plugged them in and it gave you all the minerals with those elements. Not very useful at all, but interesting. You might want to pursue these. Decision trees don't really work in mineralogy though, too many variables. Chemistry, color, hardness, even cleavage can vary in one mineral; heck, we're still debating whether quartz has cleavage or not. Cheers, Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com The minerals of Ontario: http://www.ontariominerals.com Minerals through the microscope: http://www.micromounts.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:29 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > Tim, > > I think you are making my point -- we should be capturing the literature > into a subject matter expert program so that each of us does not need to > take the time to search it. > > Kreigh > > > > > > Tim Jokela Jr. wrote: >> >> > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for >> > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive >> > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? >> > >> > Kreigh >> >> Basically the best way to get started in mineral ID is by building a >> mineralogy library, or learning how to really use a good local university >> library. The mineral literature is a powerful tool; even rather obscure >> things have often been covered by somebody out there. This is not exactly >> a >> small job. Start with a complete set of Min Recs. There's an article in >> Min >> Rec on how to thoroughly research a locality; the list of resources to >> check >> is about a page long. Learn to search the web to reveal references to >> unpublished Ph.D. theses and other goldmines. >> >> Secondly, study the locality. Most mineral localities are really quite >> simple, with under twenty or so species I'd imagine. Even complex >> localities like Saint-Hilaire though, can be broken down into different >> geological units, and hard study will provide answers. If it's a >> limestone >> quarry, the mineralogy will be quite simple; even pegmatites can often be >> quite simple, and are broken down into different classifications, which >> will >> narrow your search even further. >> >> Thirdly, cultivate relationships with other collectors and, if possible, >> academics. The pool of knowledge out there to be tapped is staggering and >> your fellow collectors are often able to help. Attend shows and symposia, >> join clubs. If you have a local museum or university with good analytical >> equipment, ask for a tour, you may find them more than willing to help >> you >> out. Remember, a lot of these people need to prove to their higher-ups >> that >> they're involved with the community. Students in particular, or just good >> researchers, may be eager to study interesting things provided by serious >> collectors. >> >> Experience and learning are also powerful tools. Get a handle on basic >> geology, mineralogy, crystallography, chemistry, etc., and you'll have a >> good set of tools to approach unknowns with, allowing you to rule out a >> lot >> of possibilities. The pocket guides yap on about things like SG, >> cleavage, >> hardness, and streak testing; all very well and interesting but not the >> way >> to ID minerals in the real world, except as sort of a subconcious >> background >> filter that rules out certain things when you first find an unknown. The >> thought of ID'ing minerals by color is laughable, I really don't know why >> they continue to publish such nonsense. In the real world mineral ID is >> better done by studying the literature, the locality, and consulting >> other >> collectors and the pros. >> >> In the end, though, mineralogy is not as hard and fast a science as many >> think. It's pretty wiggly. There's a lot of minerals out there, they're >> highly variable, and seldom conform to the textbook description. I'd >> imagine >> every hardcore collector out there, especially micromounters, has a >> drawer >> or three of interesting unknowns. Affix an arrow pointing to the crystal >> of >> interest and a proper label, and file it away for the day when analytical >> equipment drops in price. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com >> Great minerals for sale: http://www.element51.com >> The minerals of Ontario: http://www.ontariominerals.com >> Minerals through the microscope: http://www.micromounts.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Nov 14 09:14:42 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Nov 14 09:14:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <002401c7080d$5a134d80$6400a8c0@Junior> References: <002401c70742$4750c4a0$0200a8c0@kadok><001301c7074a$24d965f0$6400a8c0@Junior> <455943D0.5D@Tomaszewski.net> <002401c7080d$5a134d80$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <4559F982.2050508@verizon.net> Tim Jokela Jr. wrote: > Decision trees don't really work in mineralogy though, too many > variables. Chemistry, color, hardness, even cleavage can vary in one > mineral; heck, we're still debating whether quartz has cleavage or not. Quartz has cleavage. I've seen it and it's been demonstrated by others with more credentials than I. You just don't see it that often since quartz tends to break conchoidally. It tends to cleave best when heated, and that's when I saw it, when cleaning a large xtal in oxalic acid soln. in a heated crock pot. The thing just cleaved all by itself, a nice clean plane. Don From SHMM at sussexonline.com Tue Nov 14 09:27:43 2006 From: SHMM at sussexonline.com (Earl Verbeek) Date: Tue Nov 14 09:27:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <4559F982.2050508@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001c70812$32e7e400$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Tim Jokela Jr. wrote: > Decision trees don't really work in mineralogy though, too many > variables. Chemistry, color, hardness, even cleavage can vary in one > mineral; heck, we're still debating whether quartz has cleavage or not. Quartz has cleavage. I've seen it and it's been demonstrated by others with more credentials than I. You just don't see it that often since quartz tends to break conchoidally. It tends to cleave best when heated, and that's when I saw it, when cleaning a large xtal in oxalic acid soln. in a heated crock pot. The thing just cleaved all by itself, a nice clean plane. Don -------------------------- I'll second that -- quartz has cleavage for sure. Here at Sterling Hill we go through thousands of quartz points every year -- they're popular items with kids in our gift shop. Now, an elongate quartz crystal, when broken in the pocket or later by a collector, should break more-or-less perpendicular to the long dimension of the crystal if quartz had no cleavage. But quite a few crystals break at a high angle to the long axis of the crystal, and for almost all of these the plane they break along, though rough, is parallel to one of the rhombohedral terminations. This is the rhombohedral cleavage of quartz. It's perfectly obvious when you have hundreds of examples to look at. As an aside, most of the broken crystals were broken in the pocket, not later, and what started out as a cleavage face is now solution-etched. To an untrained eye it can look like a crystal face of a doubly terminated crystal, but it's not -- there's only that single face on the broken end of the crystal, versus the three rhombohedral faces on the terminated end. Cheers- Earl Verbeek ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@sussexonline.com From libawc at emory.edu Tue Nov 14 10:13:25 2006 From: libawc at emory.edu (Anita D. Westlake) Date: Tue Nov 14 10:13:31 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lithographie Publishers of Mineral Books! In-Reply-To: <45594188.1EED@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001101c70818$940102c0$0aa18caa@genlibad.library.emory.edu> I'd like to share this web site with you: http://www.lithographie.org/ They sell a good assortment of mineral and gem-related books and they're the nicest people to work with. Soon, they are coming out with a BEAUTIFUL Opal issue that is to die for. Warning: if you visit their site and order lots of wonderful books, it's not my fault. :) (I have no interest in this company, other than as a satisfied customer). Anita From bg at his.com Tue Nov 14 10:37:46 2006 From: bg at his.com (Catherine Gaber) Date: Tue Nov 14 10:38:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] keith hodson Message-ID: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> can anyone tell me if keith hodson is still alive? i heard agnes died recently. cathy From efkern at earthlink.net Tue Nov 14 10:49:32 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Tue Nov 14 10:49:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography Message-ID: <001e01c7081d$a08b3560$50fbf604@TheBlackAdder> *************************** Excellent photography of volcanic places From: Dr Vicky Hards *************************** http://www.allanmacintyre.com/photo_text.htm Just take a look at Allan MacIntyre's Beautiful Monster project. He does Montserrat justice which is hard. ---------------------------------------------- Dr Vicky Hards Director Montserrat Volcano Observatory P.O. BOX 318 Flemmings Montserrat West Indies. Tel: 1-664-491-5647 FAX: 1-664-491-2423 Email: vicky@mvo.ms http://www.mvo.ms From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Tue Nov 14 11:01:47 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Tue Nov 14 11:01:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Reintroduction In-Reply-To: <455518F3.70708@tenforward.com> References: <455518F3.70708@tenforward.com> Message-ID: <455A129B.7020306@tenforward.com> Hi Everyone, Thanks for the nice comments. I know when it comes to minerals, and more importantly, to all the adventures that come with them, I really feel like I'm among a lucky few who "get" a very cool part of the natural world that surrounds us all. All the very best, John John and Gloria Cornish wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I'm back and I wanted to say hello to everyone since I've been away. I > dropped off the list for a bit, but with my commitments accomplished, > here I am, I'm back. I've worked up several new papers since I've > returned which I'll be sending out in a kind of barrage of emails ( > for this I apologize ), they'll soon be following. I'll have other > papers coming in the near future which as equally, I hope you'll > enjoy. Take care and all the very best! > > John > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tim at orerockon.com Tue Nov 14 14:51:13 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Nov 14 14:51:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] keith hodson In-Reply-To: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> Keith was alive, kicking and at the mine the first week of Sept. At 10:37 AM 11/14/2006, you wrote: >can anyone tell me if keith hodson is still alive? i heard agnes >died recently. > >cathy Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From Paintricks at aol.com Tue Nov 14 18:31:09 2006 From: Paintricks at aol.com (Paintricks@aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 14 18:31:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Manitou Springs Collecting, Surrounding areas? Message-ID: I live Around Manitou Springs and was wondering of places Other than Pikes Peak and what minerals to look for. I pan for gold but It mostly is out west. Amazonite outcroppings have been known to scatter the front range just East of Manitou but are hard to find. I did however come across many mines in the area but it seems that gold was what they were after. Are there any other things around there that may be of interest? Also,.. Where are arrowheads located around Manitou? Old Indian settlements long forgotten? Arrowheads are found around here but I'm sure it has been picked over. Being that there is a lot of granite in the area,.. are there Beryl types here? I have found lots of single smoky quartz crystals but are not well developed. Thumb size and smaller. I like hitting the unconventional routes for better finds. Thanks in advance. Kevin --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Nov 14 20:15:55 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Nov 14 20:03:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <20061114152724.79349.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <455A9170.5336@Tomaszewski.net> Jim, Like a field identification guide, I see the expert application starting with classical tests to tentatively identify the common minerals. At each step in the decision tree it would offer all remaining possibile accepted minerals. It would always be your decision to pick one possible mineral for your label, or go on to the next question/test. At some point the application would have to start asking for results of more sophisticated tests. This implies the application has captured the knowledge of what makes each approved mineral unique from the literature, and assumes it can cite the reference(s) for each decision step. IMA acceptance is based on chemistry, and the physics of the mineral molecule and crystal structure . These may require sophisticated (or even exotic) tests, but the published, objective, requirements to positively identify a unique mineral make a comprehensive decision tree possible. Kreigh Jim Daly wrote: > > I agree with the statement that a decision tree could be used to identify the more common minerals.This is what you have in Kraus & Hunt, Lewis, etc. in print form. > The problem is that these tables don't (and can't) cover the more esoteric species. > The minerals covered are the ones that can probably be identified by sight most of the time. The rarer minerals that aren't in the tables are usually found as micros. It's difficult or impossible to run hardness, specific gravity, etc. on a micro specimen. > The key properties in doing sight identification on micros would include crystal habit, color and associations. These are often related to the locality. You'd have to have a decision tree built for each locality- a daunting prospect, but interesting if you like challenges. > Jim Daly > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Andrew, > > I appreciate your insights. I understand that classical tests are not > going to be enough to identify all minerals. But classical tests, > organized into a decision tree, should identify close to half of the > known minerals, and give some clues as to the rest. > > There is no reason (other than time and effort to search the literature) > that the rest of them couldn't be included into a decision tree via the > more advanced tests being used today. I'll agree it will be difficult, > but I don't think it is impossible. > > If someone can convince the IMA that they have found a new mineral, > they must have found some test sequence that proves it to be unique. > This same sequence can be incorporated into a decision tree. > > Kreigh > > Andrew Turner wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, I believe it would be nearly impossible to develop a decision > > tree that would lead to the identification of every mineral. While there > > are programs and identification guides that can help with maybe 40-50% of > > all minerals, covering all minerals would be extremely difficult. For > > instance: > > > > there now well over 5000 known minerals. With the advancemnt of SEM, ore > > microprobe, etc. some 50-100 minerals have been discovered in each of the > > past 5 years or so. The only reason why more haven't been listed that the > > IMA hasn't approved them yet (and typically hasn't had the time to approve > > them yet). > > > > Many many minerals are identical in appearance and physical identification > > markers. Take the amphibole series (in the hundreds of minerals). Run all > > physical tests, they would basically come out the exact same. The same goes > > true for lithium micas. Their series has some 14 end members (a > > 14-dimensional phase diagram). The only real differences are ratios of > > differnent cations and different lengths of atomic bonds. XRD, SEM, etc. > > probably can't even distinguish these differences. > > An XRD would simply match the peaks as a lithium mica or lepidolite. > > > > A large percentage of minerals are only found in one locality, are > > microscopic, and often in just a few boulders. There is no practical reason > > to include them in identification guides or to spend time putting them into > > a computer analysis. Usually there is a paper written on how this new > > zeolite has a slightly different % of sodium vs. aluminum atoms or whether a > > refined atomic structure should cause a mineral to be called monazite-Ce, > > monazite-La, or monazite-Nd. > > > > Even using high-tech equipment typically requires some knowlege of what you > > expect to find. Run an XRD spectrum on a mineral and you can get dozens of > > good matches. However, the way to find out what you actually have is to > > eliminate what you know is not there. For instance, if you analyzie a mafic > > rock and a good match is K-spar, this can probably be eliminated. Same with > > SEM--to run a good EDS spectrum, you often need to have a good idea of the > > elements in the material. This allows you to use the right type of filament > > at the right kV for a proper length of time to get maximized results. I > > used to run uranium phosphate minerals on both XRD and SEM. Because most > > phosphates and other "trash can" minerals can incorporate numerous elements > > into their structures, if I had no idea what I was analyzing, the XRD data > > would show some 50+ matches and the SEM/EDS analysis would show U, P, or > > Ca/Na. Neither of these would be helpful. > > > > I find the most extensive list of minerals and their properties online at > > Athena Mineralogy. I hope this helps, just trying to add some insight. I > > do like the idea though as I try to learn and recognize as many possible > > minerals as I can as well. > > > > Andrew Turner > > Victorville, CA > > > > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > > >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > >collectors" > > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > >collectors" > > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 00:07:51 -0500 > > > > > >Larry, > > > > > >Thanks for the reminder of Kraus (et al), but they still don't cover all > > >known minerals. > > > > > >I agree with you that most field guides are still better than the online > > >resources available (at least as far as I have found). > > > > > >But I'm looking for a more inclusive, and more direct, solution. Someone > > >must be sharing the best practices for mineral identification. > > > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Lawrence Rush wrote: > > > > > > > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > > > > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that > > >it > > > > was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > > > > > > > metallic/non-metallic luster > > > > color > > > > streak > > > > hardness > > > > species > > > > > > > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can > > >run > > > > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > > > > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > > > > > > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find > > >it > > > > is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > > > > > > > Larry Rush > > > > > > > > ================================== > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > > > > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > > > > > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play > > >20 > > > > > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > > > > > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > > > > > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > > > > > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half > > >of > > > > > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > > > > > unique mineral. > > > > > > > > > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > > > > > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > > > > > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > > > > > different questions. > > > > > > > > > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > > > > > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > > > > > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > > > > > which is the best approach? > > > > > > > > > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > > > > > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is > > >done > > > > > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, > > >by > > > > > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > > > > > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > > > > > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > > > > > fieldbooks). > > > > > > > > > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > > > > > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum > > >number > > > > > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > > > > > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown > > >mineral", > > > > > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > > > > > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > > > > > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > > > > > > > > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > > > > > identifying any known mineral? > > > > > > > > > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > > > > > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > > > > > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > > > > > > > > > Kreigh From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Tue Nov 14 20:21:06 2006 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Nov 14 20:24:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <455A9170.5336@Tomaszewski.net> References: <20061114152724.79349.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <455A9170.5336@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20061114181717.02393718@mail.hawaiiantel.net> The more you write, Kreigh, the more I agree with Margaret. You ought to write this program yourself! Aloha, Kitty At 06:15 PM 11/14/2006, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >Jim, > >Like a field identification guide, I see the expert application starting >with classical tests to tentatively identify the common minerals. At >each step in the decision tree it would offer all remaining possibile >accepted minerals. It would always be your decision to pick one possible >mineral for your label, or go on to the next question/test. > >At some point the application would have to start asking for results of >more sophisticated tests. This implies the application has captured the >knowledge of what makes each approved mineral unique from the >literature, and assumes it can cite the reference(s) for each decision >step. > >IMA acceptance is based on chemistry, and the physics of the mineral >molecule and crystal structure . These may require sophisticated (or >even exotic) tests, but the published, objective, requirements to >positively identify a unique mineral make a comprehensive decision tree >possible. > >Kreigh >Margaret Malm wrote: >I think you would have to write that one yourself!!! LOL! >Margaret From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Wed Nov 15 08:16:09 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Wed Nov 15 08:16:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] This weekend! Message-ID: <455B3D49.1000603@tenforward.com> Hi Everyone, Gloria and I will be attending the Kitsap Mineral and Gem Society's Fall Festival of Gems this weekend and we'd like to invite you to come over for a very good rock show. We've always considered this to among the top 3 Washington Club Shows and with the recent expansion the show has enjoyed, this year will even be better yet. We'll be selling crystals and cracking geodes and just flat having way too much fun! And, we'll be displaying too. By clicking the following link and by scrolling down the page by date, you'll come across the listing for our show. The address is there as are the hours. I hope to see you there as it'll be nice to put faces with some of the names we commonly see posting here. Thank you for your time and all the very best, John http://www.amfed.org/nfms/shows2.htm From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 10:22:26 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Wed Nov 15 10:22:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mobile, Alabama Jewelry, Gem & Mineral Show Nov 24-26 Message-ID: The Mobile Rock and Gem Society is happy to announce the 12th Annual Mobile, Alabama Jewelry, Gem & Mineral Show Nov 24-26 at the Greater Gulf States Fairgrounds at the intersection of Cody Road and Zeigler Boulevard. The times are: Friday Nov 24, 2PM - 7PM Saturday Nov 25, 9AM - 6PM Sunday Nov 26, 10AM - 5PM Admission is only $3. Bring a copy of this email and save $1 each! Children under 12 are admitted free with an adult. We will have dealers from all over the country with jewelry, gems, minerals, fossils, and much more. Also there will be demonstrations, displays, a sluice, door prizes, raffles, food, and fun! Ya'll come! Glenn & Jeanette WimpeeApologies if this gets posted again later...I sent it last night to lots of friends as well as the list, and it has been delayed to the rockhounds list. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Use Messenger to talk to your IM friends, even those on Yahoo! http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=7adb59de-a857-45ba-81cc-685ee3e858fe --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ajs at frii.com Wed Nov 15 11:13:47 2006 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Wed Nov 15 11:13:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Manitou Springs Collecting, Surrounding areas? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061115191347.6B4734D269@io.frii.com> > Also,.. Where are arrowheads located around Manitou? Old Indian > settlements long forgotten? Arrowheads are found around here but I'm > sure it has been picked over. Don't know WHERE you should look, but can kibbitz on WHAT you might look for. (And maybe get more educated in turn from other people on this list.) I'm no expert, but various readings, especially some stats on the Lindenmeier site, tell me that spear or arrow points (or parts thereof) generally constitute only about 20% of artifacts you might find. The other 80% are scrapers or other rarer tools like awls, which are much less obvious to identify as such. Furthermore it seems to me that points, being more obvious to the eye, are more likely to attract the notice of casual passerby as well as artifact hunters, and are probably disproportionately already collected by now. This agrees with my own experience while rockhounding in CO, WY, and UT over the past 10-15 years. Once in a while I find a stone that is obviously artifacted, probably a scraper, but almost NEVER a point or even a portion of a point. Of course, for every obvious scraper I see, there are 2-3 more "could be, not sure" rocks. I suspect that not every tool stone was lovingly and patiently made, and that in many cases a handy rock was quickly split, sharpened if necessary, used, and then possibly even discarded. Remember too that collecting artifacts on public lands is illegal... Sometimes worries me a little when I snag a prairie agate to take home for tumbling, clean and examine it later, and then realize it MIGHT be a scraper, based on its shape and size and "faceting", but often you really can't be sure. Cheers, Alan Silverstein From buff1 at ptd.net Wed Nov 15 15:50:51 2006 From: buff1 at ptd.net (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Wed Nov 15 15:50:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> Is there any means available to the non-labratory technician to be able to determine for sure whether a specimen is natrolite or scolecite... one being sodium the other calcic zeolite... I really suspect that both species may exist in a particular quarry... I also noted that scolecite is so named for the apparent "wormy" reaction it has when placed in a blow pipe flame... I would probably assume the same or similar reaction occurs with natrolite... I really dis-like the idea that at one time ( probably going on 50 years now ) that a mineral was named as being in a particular quarry and we now "assume" that to still be the same thing, or at least in the singular sense. Any thoughts?? From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Nov 15 16:30:20 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Nov 15 16:30:22 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography References: <001e01c7081d$a08b3560$50fbf604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <005201c70916$65c4df40$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I couldn't get it to work for me. Maybe it is a powerpoint slide show? I don't have PP on my computer. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Kern" To: "Rockhounds" Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:49 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography > > > *************************** > Excellent photography of volcanic places > From: Dr Vicky Hards > *************************** > > http://www.allanmacintyre.com/photo_text.htm > > Just take a look at Allan MacIntyre's Beautiful Monster project. > > He does Montserrat justice which is hard. > > ---------------------------------------------- > Dr Vicky Hards > Director > Montserrat Volcano Observatory > P.O. BOX 318 > Flemmings > Montserrat > West Indies. > > Tel: 1-664-491-5647 > FAX: 1-664-491-2423 > > Email: vicky@mvo.ms > > http://www.mvo.ms > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Wed Nov 15 17:12:26 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Wed Nov 15 17:12:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography Message-ID: Actually, several powerpoint pictures groups...and they are really good...a good percent is B&W. Glenn > > I couldn't get it to work for me. Maybe it is a powerpoint slide show? I > don't have PP on my computer.> > Alan> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erich Kern" >> > ***************************> > Excellent photography of volcanic places> > From: Dr Vicky Hards> > ***************************> >> > http://www.allanmacintyre.com/photo_text.htm> >> > Just take a look at Allan MacIntyre's Beautiful Monster project.> >> > He does Montserrat justice which is hard.> >> > ----------------------------------------------> > Dr Vicky Hards> > Director> > Montserrat Volcano Observatory> > P.O. BOX 318> > Flemmings> > Montserrat> > West Indies.> >> > Tel: 1-664-491-5647> > FAX: 1-664-491-2423> >> > Email: vicky@mvo.ms > >> > http://www.mvo.ms > > _________________________________________________________________ Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Live Toolbar Today! http://get.live.com/toolbar/overview --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Wed Nov 15 17:26:34 2006 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Nov 15 17:26:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography In-Reply-To: <005201c70916$65c4df40$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <001e01c7081d$a08b3560$50fbf604@TheBlackAdder> <005201c70916$65c4df40$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20061115150947.048ea880@mail.hawaiiantel.net> I can get it. The pictures are definitely worth looking at. Some comments (just my personal opinions): 1. I'd be the first to defend black-and-white photography---just look at Ansel Adams! And I have a darkroom and like to experiment with various darkroom effects (and have yet to master computer photo manipulation). But I found myself disappointed several times with these pictures that they weren't in color. I'm old enough to remember when color films or cameras or processing (or a combination of the three) often did not produce accurate or effective results. But that's rare now, and I think that unless the subject matter cries out artistically for the stark simplicity of B&W, it's better to go with color. 2. I think photos should have accurate labels, just like mineral specimens should. I actually prefer the kind of captions that are often given in photography magazines, where not only the subject matter information is given, but also the kind of camera and lens and exposure. I also like a photo to have a title---like a painting or poem or novel. 3. The above criticisms aside, most of the photos are excellent, and some rise to the level of works of art. Aloha, Kitty At 02:30 PM 11/15/2006, you wrote: >I couldn't get it to work for me. Maybe it is a powerpoint slide show? I >don't have PP on my computer. > >Alan > >> >>*************************** >>Excellent photography of volcanic places >>From: Dr Vicky Hards >>*************************** >> >>http://www.allanmacintyre.com/photo_text.htm >> >>Just take a look at Allan MacIntyre's Beautiful Monster project. >> >>He does Montserrat justice which is hard. >> >>---------------------------------------------- >>Dr Vicky Hards >>Director >>Montserrat Volcano Observatory >>P.O. BOX 318 >>Flemmings >>Montserrat >>West Indies. From tim at orerockon.com Wed Nov 15 16:30:55 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Nov 16 03:55:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? In-Reply-To: <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061115162654.0355cdf0@orerockon.com> Zeolites are a b__ch. Both can and I believe many times do occur together. That said, supposedly, "Scolecite can be distinguished from natrolite by an optical examination, since the acicular crystals do not extinguish parallel to their length between crossed nicols." You are on your own with that one lol. At 03:50 PM 11/15/2006, you wrote: >Is there any means available to the non-labratory technician to be >able to determine for sure whether a specimen is natrolite or >scolecite... one being sodium the other calcic zeolite... I really >suspect that both species may exist in a particular quarry... I also >noted that scolecite is so named for the apparent "wormy" reaction >it has when placed in a blow pipe flame... I would probably assume >the same or similar reaction occurs with natrolite... >I really dis-like the idea that at one time ( probably going on 50 >years now ) that a mineral was named as being in a particular quarry >and we now "assume" that to still be the same thing, or at least in >the singular sense. >Any thoughts?? Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From llbullbull at hotmail.com Thu Nov 16 05:07:20 2006 From: llbullbull at hotmail.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Thu Nov 16 05:07:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] FW: [Bmc-announce] Worcester Mineral Show this weekend Nov. 18/19(UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: >From: "Young, Paul J NAE" >To: "BMC distribution list" >Subject: [Bmc-announce] Worcester Mineral Show this weekend Nov. >18/19(UNCLASSIFIED) >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:13:16 -0500 > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > >Greetings BMC Members: > > > >I wanted to let BMC members know that the Worcester Mineral Show is THIS >weekend, Nov. 18 and 19. The show will be held at the National Guard >Armory >on 701 Lincoln St., Worcester. > >Directions are: From Rte 495 take Rte 290 west to Exit 22 - Main St. >Shrewsbury, go right at the exit, thru a set of traffic lights, up a slight >hill and the armory will be on your left. Hours are Saturday and Sunday >10am >to 5pm. > > > >Once again I'll be a dealer there (back right corner-No Stone Unturned >Minerals) and will have some new material from my summer collecting trip to >New Mexico and more recent trip to Switzerland and the Munich Show. I will >also have alot of books, back issues of "The Mineralogical Record" and >"Rocks >and Minerals" and other things. > > > > > >See you there! > > > >Paul Young > > >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE _________________________________________________________________ Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk _______________________________________________ Bmc-announce mailing list Bmc-announce@jerrycarter.org http://www.jerrycarter.org/mailman/listinfo/bmc-announce --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) text/plain (text body -- kept) --- From DOMMELEN at DAL.CA Thu Nov 16 05:30:41 2006 From: DOMMELEN at DAL.CA (Ronnie Van Dommelen) Date: Thu Nov 16 05:30:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? In-Reply-To: <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> Message-ID: <20061116093041.cl242a29of4k8ksw@my6.dal.ca> Dennis, I collect a lot of zeolites around the Bay of Fundy and faced the same problem of misidentified species from the natrolite/mesolite/scolecite group. Generally anything fine was called natrolite and anything coarse was called scolecite. I suggest you try to track down a copy of Tchernichs's Zeolites of the World. They are tough to find and expensive to buy, but you might be able to get one on an interlibrary loan. Check your local universities. One thing that makes it difficult is that these zeolites will often layer themselves (it's been a while since I looked at this stuff, but I believe scolecite was part of the layering - certainly mesolite and natrolite) so that the core of a crystal is one mineral, then a coating of another and an outer rind of a third. This makes ID extremely difficult. An optical study would give all of this info though. I think getting the best answer you can without complex analysis is to look at the termination and cross section. From what I have read, the terminations are quite different with scolecite often being more feathery and natrolite always forming a nice shallow pyramid. And natrolite forms square prisms while I believe scolecite has a more diamond shaped cross section. Others may disagree with these simplifications - I would be happy to hear about contrary examples. Happy Collecting (and Analyzing), Ronnie Van Dommelen Nova Scotia Quoting Dennis Buffenmyer : > Is there any means available to the non-labratory technician to be > able to determine for sure whether a specimen is natrolite or > scolecite... one being sodium the other calcic zeolite... I really > suspect that both species may exist in a particular quarry... I also > noted that scolecite is so named for the apparent "wormy" reaction it > has when placed in a blow pipe flame... I would probably assume the > same or similar reaction occurs with natrolite... > I really dis-like the idea that at one time ( probably going on 50 > years now ) that a mineral was named as being in a particular quarry > and we now "assume" that to still be the same thing, or at least in > the singular sense. > Any thoughts?? > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From rpr at heidelberg.edu Thu Nov 16 06:56:09 2006 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Thu Nov 16 06:56:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? In-Reply-To: <20061116093041.cl242a29of4k8ksw@my6.dal.ca> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> <20061116093041.cl242a29of4k8ksw@my6.dal.ca> Message-ID: <085A1D9C-656B-45D4-893B-554838659F06@heidelberg.edu> I concur with everything Ronnie has said, except that one cannot count on the morphological criterion. True, natrolite often forms prisms with square cross sections, but other morphologies are not uncommon (for example, at Mont Saint-Hilaire and Ice River, BC). And mesolite and scolecite can have a habit identical to the typical square-prism natrolite habit. Optics can allow one to distinguish between the three species, but this requires more than a passing acquaintance with optical mineralogy. I wonder if one could learn to distinguish between the three species using flame tests. Sodium gives a yellow flame, calcium a reddish one. Mesolite would give a color somewhere in between. It would certainly help to have known examples of each to serve as standards.... And this approach would only work if there were no intergrowths. Pete Richards On Nov 16, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Ronnie Van Dommelen wrote: > Dennis, > > I collect a lot of zeolites around the Bay of Fundy and faced the > same problem > of misidentified species from the natrolite/mesolite/scolecite > group. Generally anything fine was called natrolite and anything > coarse was called > scolecite. I suggest you try to track down a copy of Tchernichs's > Zeolites of > the World. They are tough to find and expensive to buy, but you > might be able > to get one on an interlibrary loan. Check your local universities. > > One thing that makes it difficult is that these zeolites will often > layer > themselves (it's been a while since I looked at this stuff, but I > believe > scolecite was part of the layering - certainly mesolite and > natrolite) so that > the core of a crystal is one mineral, then a coating of another and > an outer > rind of a third. This makes ID extremely difficult. An optical > study would > give all of this info though. > > I think getting the best answer you can without complex analysis is > to look at > the termination and cross section. From what I have read, the > terminations are > quite different with scolecite often being more feathery and > natrolite always > forming a nice shallow pyramid. And natrolite forms square prisms > while I > believe scolecite has a more diamond shaped cross section. Others > may disagree > with these simplifications - I would be happy to hear about > contrary examples. > > Happy Collecting (and Analyzing), > Ronnie Van Dommelen > Nova Scotia > ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From bilmcc1948 at msn.com Thu Nov 16 09:40:28 2006 From: bilmcc1948 at msn.com (Kirk McCullough) Date: Thu Nov 16 09:40:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography In-Reply-To: <005201c70916$65c4df40$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: Despite the other comment about this being powerpoint, looking at the source code just shows them to be graphics (like jpgs) sequenced by clicking on them. The advance is done with a little Javascript routine. You do not need powerpoint, but you do need to have javascript enabled. Hope that helps, --Bill McC. >From: "Alan Goldstein" >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography >Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:30:20 -0500 > >I couldn't get it to work for me. Maybe it is a powerpoint slide show? I >don't have PP on my computer. > >Alan > >----- Original Message ----- From: "Erich Kern" >To: "Rockhounds" >Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:49 PM >Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcano photography > > >> >> >>*************************** >>Excellent photography of volcanic places >>From: Dr Vicky Hards >>*************************** >> >>http://www.allanmacintyre.com/photo_text.htm >> >>Just take a look at Allan MacIntyre's Beautiful Monster project. >> >>He does Montserrat justice which is hard. >> >>---------------------------------------------- >>Dr Vicky Hards >>Director >>Montserrat Volcano Observatory >>P.O. BOX 318 >>Flemmings >>Montserrat >>West Indies. >> >>Tel: 1-664-491-5647 >>FAX: 1-664-491-2423 >> >>Email: vicky@mvo.ms >> >>http://www.mvo.ms >> >> >> >>-- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From luka2 at telkomsa.net Thu Nov 16 09:41:37 2006 From: luka2 at telkomsa.net (Luka Berkovic) Date: Thu Nov 16 10:06:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] African Minerals Message-ID: <009101c709a9$d739f050$6346ef9b@luka> Hi Would anyone be interested in the following Specimens, I would like to sell them as a whole. The total specimens below add up to $2020. postage would be about $250 for all the specimens. I would be very willing to give a discount to anyone who is interested in purchasing the lot. I have also got a tray of 19 calcites which I will give away with this; postage would be included in the above amount. Please not that none of the specimens are damaged. I have taken a few pictures of the specimens listed below but not all of them as I do not want to slow your server down, so please email me and I will send you the few pictures I have I would appreciate a reply even if you are not interested. Thank you very much. Luka Berkovic 1. Chalcopyrite, very nice brass yellow colour. 3.5 x 3.2 x 2.5cm. ($40) 2. Brandberg Amethyst Quartz with Prehnite, on a matrix, base of manganese, from Brandberg Mnt. 13.5 x 7.5 x 3.8cm. ($60) 3. Vesuvianite with green Epidot, white Scapolite and Calcite from north of Uis, Namibia. 9.6 x 9.5 x 4.5cm. ($80) 4. Dioptase, very nice deep emerald green colour from kaokoland, Namibia. 5.5 x 4.2 x 1.8cm. ($130) 5. Doubly terminated smoky quartz with a water inclusion from the Brandberg Mnt Namibia. 4.5 x 1.7cm. ($20) 6. Brandberg amethyst quartz, deep purple with a water inclusion from the Brandberg Mnt, Namibia. 4.8 x 1.7cm. ($20) 7. Brandberg Amethyst, Smoky Quartz from Namibia. There is 13 pieces of terminated quartz with a mixed colours, it stands very well. 8.5 x 6.5 x 4.5cm. ($60) 8. Brandberg quartz with 2 water inclusions from Namibia. 5.3 x 1.8cm. ($20) 9. Divergent sprays of pale pink Mangano calcite, from N'chwaning mine Kuruman. 3.8 x 3.5cm. ($10) 10. Pale yellow prisms of Ettringite from the Wessels Mine. 6.5 x 3.6 x 3.2cm. ($15) 11. Attractive smooth green whorls of Prehnite and quartz on basalt from Brandberg, Namibia. 13.5 x 8.5 x 6.5cm. ($55) 12. Lustrous micro mount pink Rhodocrosite from hot as hell. ($15) 13. White/clear calcite from N'chwaning mine, thumbnail. ($15) 14. Deep blue azurite micro mounts from Tsumeb, Namibia. ($15) 15. Single whorl of Prehnite on calcite from Brandberg, Namibia. 5.3 x 3.7 x 1.1cm. ($30) 16. Very Deep Emerald Alexandrite from Mavingo Zimbabwe turns to a very deep ruby red when placed under light. It is on a matrix and is gemmy. 3.5 x 2.9 x 2.5cm. ($450) 17. Brandberg smoky Quartz Sceptre from Brandberg Mnt Namibia. 7.1 x 3.9 x 3.1xm. ($40) 18. Native Copper from the Onganja Mine in Namibia, it is a flat sheet like piece with a Dendretic pattern. 5.2 x 4.1cm. ($40) 19. Brandberg amethyst quartz sceptre from Brandberg Mnt, Namibia. 5.2 x 21.cm. ($25) 20. Orange River quartz deep blood red colour. 4.2 x 1.5cm. ($10) 21. Aquamarine with black tourmaline pieces, pale blue colour. 4.9 x 2.1cm. ($40) 22. Malachite from Drc. Excellent display view and very nice colour contrast. 5.6 x 4.1x 4.5cm. ($35) 23. Brandberg quartz with a slight tinge of smoky quartz from the Brandberg Mnt, Namibia. 4.5 x 1.9cm. ($25) 24. Brandberg Amethyst Quartz from Namibia. Excellent strong purple colour and very lustrous. 4.6 x 1.8cm. ($30) 25. Bultfonteinite and Poldervaartite from the N'chwaning mine, Kuruman. Very extremely fine hairs of Bultfonteinite and very gemmy Poldervaartite. it sits superbly. 9.2 x 6.5 x 6.5cm. ($150) 26. Flat tabular pieces of lustrous gemmy Vanandanite on a calcite base, this is a excellent specimen. 6.8 x 5.3 x 3.1cm. ($125) 27. Brandberg Quartz with mica and feldspar from the Brandberg Mnt. A must have for any quartz collector. 5.8 x 3.3 x 3.1cm. ($40) 28. Black tourmaline and Bright green fluorite on feldspar, From Tsumeb. 6.5 x 5.5 x 3.5cm, ($25) 29. Vanandanite, very lustrous and gemmy with excellent colour. 5.3 x 4.8 x 3.5cm. ($95) 30. Garnet with a band of hematite running through. Garnets are deep brown, yet very lustrous. This is a collectable item. From N'chwaning Mine Kuruman. 7.5 x 4.8 x 3.6cm. ($20) 31. Yellow Topaz from Klein Spitzkoppe Namibia. 3.1 x 3.3 x 3.8cm. ($85) 32. Silver Topaz from Klein Spitzkoppe Namibia. 4.7 x 2.5 x 1.8cm. ($75) 33. Brandberg Smoky Quartz with Black tourmaline, very lustrous and unusual. 4.5 x 3.3 x 3.2cm. ($30) 34. Aquamarine in Black Tourmaline. Sits very well and is a gemmy aqua. Just over 2.5cm. ($45) 35. Clear Calcite from N'chwaning mine Kuruman. Very lustrous and gemmy. 3.5 x 2.2 x 1.7cm. ($15) 36. Aquamarine from Namibia. Very nice blue. 3.8 x 1.1cm. ($35) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Thu Nov 16 13:33:33 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Thu Nov 16 13:33:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Etna photos online Message-ID: <002601c709c6$df52f940$77a3f604@TheBlackAdder> Dear Volcanophiles, photos of current Etna activity, including strombolian eruptions at South East Cone, spattering at effusive vents on the west flank of South East Cone and at hornitos in Valle del Bove, and lava flows on Cratere del Piano and in Valle del Bove, can be found on Stromboli Online, www.stromboli.net, at the pages: http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/etna0611-en.html http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/etna0610-en.html http://www.swisseduc.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/etna0609-en.html Best greetings Marco Fulle - www.stromboli.net From buff1 at ptd.net Thu Nov 16 14:51:21 2006 From: buff1 at ptd.net (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Thu Nov 16 14:51:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? In-Reply-To: <085A1D9C-656B-45D4-893B-554838659F06@heidelberg.edu> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> <20061116093041.cl242a29of4k8ksw@my6.dal.ca> <085A1D9C-656B-45D4-893B-554838659F06@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <455CEB69.8030300@ptd.net> Thanks Tim, Ronnie, and Peter.... I was more or less afraid that was going to be the answer... and the overgrowths I suspect to be a REAL problem in this case... I may try to use the flame test just as an experiment ( which is what I was kind of alluding to in my original post ) but am not very good at minor color variations in flame unless I have like a strong strontium or copper presence I would hesitate to call it any kind of assurance... I will await any futher input, but, it seems that you all more or less share my concern/frustration with proper labeling and hierarchal naming. Your zeolite collecting friend, Dennis R. Peter Richards wrote: > I concur with everything Ronnie has said, except that one cannot > count on the morphological criterion. True, natrolite often forms > prisms with square cross sections, but other morphologies are not > uncommon (for example, at Mont Saint-Hilaire and Ice River, BC). And > mesolite and scolecite can have a habit identical to the typical > square-prism natrolite habit. > > Optics can allow one to distinguish between the three species, but > this requires more than a passing acquaintance with optical mineralogy. > > I wonder if one could learn to distinguish between the three species > using flame tests. Sodium gives a yellow flame, calcium a reddish > one. Mesolite would give a color somewhere in between. It would > certainly help to have known examples of each to serve as > standards.... And this approach would only work if there were no > intergrowths. > > Pete Richards > > > On Nov 16, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Ronnie Van Dommelen wrote: > >> Dennis, >> >> I collect a lot of zeolites around the Bay of Fundy and faced the >> same problem >> of misidentified species from the natrolite/mesolite/scolecite >> group. Generally anything fine was called natrolite and anything >> coarse was called >> scolecite. I suggest you try to track down a copy of Tchernichs's >> Zeolites of >> the World. They are tough to find and expensive to buy, but you >> might be able >> to get one on an interlibrary loan. Check your local universities. >> >> One thing that makes it difficult is that these zeolites will often >> layer >> themselves (it's been a while since I looked at this stuff, but I >> believe >> scolecite was part of the layering - certainly mesolite and >> natrolite) so that >> the core of a crystal is one mineral, then a coating of another and >> an outer >> rind of a third. This makes ID extremely difficult. An optical >> study would >> give all of this info though. >> >> I think getting the best answer you can without complex analysis is >> to look at >> the termination and cross section. From what I have read, the >> terminations are >> quite different with scolecite often being more feathery and >> natrolite always >> forming a nice shallow pyramid. And natrolite forms square prisms >> while I >> believe scolecite has a more diamond shaped cross section. Others >> may disagree >> with these simplifications - I would be happy to hear about contrary >> examples. >> From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 15:09:36 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Nov 16 15:09:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? In-Reply-To: <455CEB69.8030300@ptd.net> References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> <20061116093041.cl242a29of4k8ksw@my6.dal.ca> <085A1D9C-656B-45D4-893B-554838659F06@heidelberg.edu> <455CEB69.8030300@ptd.net> Message-ID: The sodium flame is intensely colored yellow, calcium not so. But sodium is everywhere and it is easy to have a contaminated sample. BK On 11/16/06, Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: > > Thanks Tim, Ronnie, and Peter.... > I was more or less afraid that was going to be the answer... and the > overgrowths I suspect to be a REAL problem in this case... I may try toThe > use the flame test just as an experiment ( which is what I was kind of > alluding to in my original post ) but am not very good at minor color > variations in flame unless I have like a strong strontium or copper > presence I would hesitate to call it any kind of assurance... I will > await any futher input, but, it seems that you all more or less share my > concern/frustration with proper labeling and hierarchal naming. > Your zeolite collecting friend, > Dennis > > R. Peter Richards wrote: > > > I concur with everything Ronnie has said, except that one cannot > > count on the morphological criterion. True, natrolite often forms > > prisms with square cross sections, but other morphologies are not > > uncommon (for example, at Mont Saint-Hilaire and Ice River, BC). And > > mesolite and scolecite can have a habit identical to the typical > > square-prism natrolite habit. > > > > Optics can allow one to distinguish between the three species, but > > this requires more than a passing acquaintance with optical mineralogy. > > > > I wonder if one could learn to distinguish between the three species > > using flame tests. Sodium gives a yellow flame, calcium a reddish > > one. Mesolite would give a color somewhere in between. It would > > certainly help to have known examples of each to serve as > > standards.... And this approach would only work if there were no > > intergrowths. > > > > Pete Richards > > > > > > On Nov 16, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Ronnie Van Dommelen wrote: > > > >> Dennis, > >> > >> I collect a lot of zeolites around the Bay of Fundy and faced the > >> same problem > >> of misidentified species from the natrolite/mesolite/scolecite > >> group. Generally anything fine was called natrolite and anything > >> coarse was called > >> scolecite. I suggest you try to track down a copy of Tchernichs's > >> Zeolites of > >> the World. They are tough to find and expensive to buy, but you > >> might be able > >> to get one on an interlibrary loan. Check your local universities. > >> > >> One thing that makes it difficult is that these zeolites will often > >> layer > >> themselves (it's been a while since I looked at this stuff, but I > >> believe > >> scolecite was part of the layering - certainly mesolite and > >> natrolite) so that > >> the core of a crystal is one mineral, then a coating of another and > >> an outer > >> rind of a third. This makes ID extremely difficult. An optical > >> study would > >> give all of this info though. > >> > >> I think getting the best answer you can without complex analysis is > >> to look at > >> the termination and cross section. From what I have read, the > >> terminations are > >> quite different with scolecite often being more feathery and > >> natrolite always > >> forming a nice shallow pyramid. And natrolite forms square prisms > >> while I > >> believe scolecite has a more diamond shaped cross section. Others > >> may disagree > >> with these simplifications - I would be happy to hear about contrary > >> examples. > >> > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Nov 16 18:22:09 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Nov 16 18:03:34 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <20061114152724.79349.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <455A9170.5336@Tomaszewski.net> <6.2.1.2.0.20061114181717.02393718@mail.hawaiiantel.net> Message-ID: <455D186E.5C3E@Tomaszewski.net> Actually, the easy part is the software, which is mostly available 'off the shelf'. The hard part is capturing the literature on mineral identification, and 'training' the expert system software to 'understand' all the facts relating to the subject matter. I've talked to the IMA, but they were not interested in taking on this project. I'm currently looking for a college or university that would be interested in attempting it. I want to see it developed as an 'open source' project so it is freely available. I know a project like this will require help from many experts, but is possible with today's technology; I wouldn't be looking for help if I could write it myself. Kreigh Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > The more you write, Kreigh, the more I agree with Margaret. You ought to > write this program yourself! > Aloha, Kitty > > At 06:15 PM 11/14/2006, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >Jim, > > > >Like a field identification guide, I see the expert application starting > >with classical tests to tentatively identify the common minerals. At > >each step in the decision tree it would offer all remaining possibile > >accepted minerals. It would always be your decision to pick one possible > >mineral for your label, or go on to the next question/test. > > > >At some point the application would have to start asking for results of > >more sophisticated tests. This implies the application has captured the > >knowledge of what makes each approved mineral unique from the > >literature, and assumes it can cite the reference(s) for each decision > >step. > > > >IMA acceptance is based on chemistry, and the physics of the mineral > >molecule and crystal structure . These may require sophisticated (or > >even exotic) tests, but the published, objective, requirements to > >positively identify a unique mineral make a comprehensive decision tree > >possible. > > > >Kreigh > > >Margaret Malm wrote: > >I think you would have to write that one yourself!!! LOL! > > >Margaret From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 18:36:46 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Nov 16 18:36:49 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <455D186E.5C3E@Tomaszewski.net> References: <20061114152724.79349.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <455A9170.5336@Tomaszewski.net> <6.2.1.2.0.20061114181717.02393718@mail.hawaiiantel.net> <455D186E.5C3E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: It doesn't seem like this would that hard to code Kreigh. Just a decision tree. Pretty basic coding. You just set up a database with the parameters, color, streak color ect and work you way thru by posing questions to the user: What color is the mineral and give him a list to pick from. Then query the database for minerals having that color and then do say hardness with another question. You'd then query the results from the first query for minerals with the correct hardness. And so on. For numeric values you'd want to build in a range so if they enter hardness = 5 you'd want to look at 5 +- 0.5 or what ever range would be appropriate. Seems easy from the coding point of view but providing the expert knowledge to build the decision tree would be beyond me. You could start with that book tho. BK On 11/16/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Actually, the easy part is the software, which is mostly available 'off > the shelf'. The hard part is capturing the literature on mineral > identification, and 'training' the expert system software to > 'understand' all the facts relating to the subject matter. > > I've talked to the IMA, but they were not interested in taking on this > project. I'm currently looking for a college or university that would be > interested in attempting it. > > I want to see it developed as an 'open source' project so it is freely > available. I know a project like this will require help from many > experts, but is possible with today's technology; I wouldn't be looking > for help if I could write it myself. > > Kreigh > > > > > > Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > > > The more you write, Kreigh, the more I agree with Margaret. You ought to > > write this program yourself! > > Aloha, Kitty > > > > At 06:15 PM 11/14/2006, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > >Jim, > > > > > >Like a field identification guide, I see the expert application starting > > >with classical tests to tentatively identify the common minerals. At > > >each step in the decision tree it would offer all remaining possibile > > >accepted minerals. It would always be your decision to pick one possible > > >mineral for your label, or go on to the next question/test. > > > > > >At some point the application would have to start asking for results of > > >more sophisticated tests. This implies the application has captured the > > >knowledge of what makes each approved mineral unique from the > > >literature, and assumes it can cite the reference(s) for each decision > > >step. > > > > > >IMA acceptance is based on chemistry, and the physics of the mineral > > >molecule and crystal structure . These may require sophisticated (or > > >even exotic) tests, but the published, objective, requirements to > > >positively identify a unique mineral make a comprehensive decision tree > > >possible. > > > > > >Kreigh > > > > >Margaret Malm wrote: > > >I think you would have to write that one yourself!!! LOL! > > > > >Margaret > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner From JWachsmuth at gmx.de Fri Nov 17 09:18:23 2006 From: JWachsmuth at gmx.de (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Fri Nov 17 09:23:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] scolecite/natrolite ??? References: <50ae0473126dac8fa3a70d37aee162e0@his.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061114145010.0351ca68@orerockon.com> <455BA7DB.5030507@ptd.net> Message-ID: <455DEEDF.7F1048C2@gmx.de> Hello, as others wrote before scolecite cannot be identified by morphology, optics are necessary. And for many localities, someone did the work and published it for you. Then morphology is more helpful in some cases. Nevertheless, as a collector I do not mind to label these crystals showing V-shaped terminations as scolecite. It should be correct, most of the times. Another easy way to distinguish between scolecite, mesolite, natrolite is raman-spectroscpy. (Wopenka, Brigitte, et al.: Raman spectroscopy identification of fibrous natural zeolites. Applied Spectroscopy 52 (1998) 54-63). I remember the discussion of a portable advice for this technique. That would be what you need, but too expensive, I believe. I do not think that using flame tests will help you. As a very small amount of sodium gives a bright yellow flame, you will see it with natrolite, mesolite and most scolecites. Regards, J?rgen Wachsmuth Ulm Dennis Buffenmyer schrieb: > Is there any means available to the non-labratory technician to be able > to determine for sure whether a specimen is natrolite or scolecite... > one being sodium the other calcic zeolite... I really suspect that both > species may exist in a particular quarry... I also noted that scolecite > is so named for the apparent "wormy" reaction it has when placed in a > blow pipe flame... I would probably assume the same or similar reaction > occurs with natrolite... > I really dis-like the idea that at one time ( probably going on 50 years > now ) that a mineral was named as being in a particular quarry and we > now "assume" that to still be the same thing, or at least in the > singular sense. > Any thoughts?? > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Alpen at aol.com Fri Nov 17 14:01:51 2006 From: Alpen at aol.com (Alpen@aol.com) Date: Fri Nov 17 14:02:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 30, Issue 12 Message-ID: Kevin, I've only looked a little near Manitou, but without luck. As you mentioned, amazonite is supposedly there. Topaz & potentially large smocky quartz crystals are near there. The Pikes Peak batholith is very large covering a huge area in addition to Pikes Peak itself. Futrther up Hwy 24 near Hartzel you can find some nice blue barite- assuming access is still available The Ute Trail went through your area and goes up through Salida. So depending on how far you want to drive, there are points. I'm not familiar with where around Manitou. I have found points on my sister's property which is right off the Ute Trail above Salida. You can also go east of Colorado Springs and get permission from land owners to hunt for points on their land. It's hit & miss on which ones are open to it. So far no one has greeted me with a shot gun. :) Property with a stream or dry wash with exposed dirt is best. Around there, they used mostly petrified wood for the points- some rhyolite too. If you have any luck on sourcing some nice places around Manitou for crystals and are open to sharing the info, I'd be interested in learning or even joining you some time. I also like getting off to more remote areas that haven't been picked over as much. Eric Bindner Littleton In a message dated 11/15/2006 7:02:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: I live Around Manitou Springs and was wondering of places Other than Pikes Peak and what minerals to look for. I pan for gold but It mostly is out west. Amazonite outcroppings have been known to scatter the front range just East of Manitou but are hard to find. I did however come across many mines in the area but it seems that gold was what they were after. Are there any other things around there that may be of interest? Also,.. Where are arrowheads located around Manitou? Old Indian settlements long forgotten? Arrowheads are found around here but I'm sure it has been picked over. Being that there is a lot of granite in the area,.. are there Beryl types here? I have found lots of single smoky quartz crystals but are not well developed. Thumb size and smaller. I like hitting the unconventional routes for better finds. Thanks in advance. Kevin --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From JWachsmuth at gmx.de Sat Nov 18 00:32:35 2006 From: JWachsmuth at gmx.de (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Sat Nov 18 00:33:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Greeting from Ulm References: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> Message-ID: <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> Hello John, from your messages I learnt that you are back at home. Obviously you spent a lot of time working at localities and driving to other cities. I guess you had a great successful collecting season and your collection is growing. Hopefully space is permitting you to keep your specimens. Then I realized that I never sent any email after our trip to Canada this summer. I beg your pardon, let me do it now. Annette and I returned to Germany and finally Ulm just as we planned to do at the beginning of august. After some trouble in the beginning everything went well and smoothly during our trip in Canada. We really had a great time. Even now it is a pleasure sitting back and remembering and sending you a few notes. In Calgary where we stayed the first days the weather was hot and sunny. We walked around and learnt about Canadian way of life. We found a great coffee shop offering freshly baked pastry and we experienced for the first time that Canadians line up in front of restaurants. Drinks were ordered and noone complained. This happened again at other places, and was quite unusual to us. Here we place a reservation before, and it would be quite unpolite to make guests waiting for more than a few minutes till they get to their tables. Another day we spent at the stampede grounds, with rodeo and more interesting exhibitions on horses, farming etc. I guess this aspect of life may not be the most important in nowadays Canada from the economic point of view. Canadians seem to like these traditions nevertheless. The only problem was that we got tired pretty soon. Reason was that we lost the sleep of one night as our flight was delayed for more than 8 hours. We spent almost one day in Munich which was not too bad. Consequently we did not arrive in Calgary in the afternoon but much later and we went to bed not earlier than 3.30 a.m. You can imagine that - together with the usual jet lag - this was not an easy start. Then we went to the national parks of Alberta and British Columbia. The weather changed a little bit, it was not stable for a few days what kept us from doing longer hikes. Staying away from car and tent for too long was not comfortable to us. Fortunately conditions then changed to the better and we could do what we both like best: hikes to the backcountry, living outdoors. We even rented a canoe and used it without any accident. A first time for us. I especially remember a narrow passage between two lakes, and a deer walking across just in front of us. Mountains, lakes, forests, glaciers make up a great landscape and I am happy that we had the chance to get there. By the way, we did not spot a single bear in the nature despite all the pictures and warnings and regulations how to behave in case. I understand this is the best for the bears (and humans too) but it was kind of disappointing. Before our trip I did some reading on the geology of the Rocky Mountains. I hope I did understand the general concept. Anyhow, looking at the rocks in detail I was pretty confused. To me it is hard to identify rocks of much different ages and to see how their connections are. The same situation I usually face in the alps here in Austria or Switzerland. I should have taken along a book like "Roadside Geology of ..." but I havn?t. Despite these problems I enjoyed the experience, for example to see arctomys rocks at Mt. Robson and of course Burgess shale which Gould is describing in his book on evolution. To me arctomys was a brand of backpacks, and now I know better. While in Canada we realized what long distances are in reality. We tried to minimize time spend in the car driving and so we did not reach Vancouver. Annette and I agreed on this while I regretted that as a consequence I had no chance to meet you. I hope for another time. Concerning minerals we did some field trip in the Kamloops area. I got a precise description of the locality near Westwold and we easily got to collect rocks containing zeolites there. I have to admit that I did not even open the bags containg rocks since we have returned to Ulm. Too much work as usual and other duties. Here in Germany this year we had very high temperatures and very little rain, not a normal summer for this part of the world. Our garden suffered and needed attention. And at the hospital we are building a new part of our pharmacy for producing infusions and injections under sterile conditions. Quite a task and it is an opportunity not to be repeated during my working career to change working conditions to an up-to-date standard. As a consequence I still cannot tell exactly what I found - I am sure there were chabasite, thomsonite, maybe levyne and erionite. I also tried another locality at Monte Lake but without success. The roadcut was obvious, crystallized specimens did not show. Around Kamloops and the Okanogan Valley we had lots of sun and pretty high temperatures. This develloped to be the recreational part of our trip. Swimming was necessary to cool down. Visits at wineries and restaurants gave us the feeling of luxury after the days in the mountains. Canadian wine definitely has its qualities, Grey Monk was an especially nice place we came across. I was not able to collect analcime crystals at the Crowsnest pass area. Did I ask you about these in the past? I think I did. Even your friend Mr. Menzies from Calgary does not know the place as he wrote to me. After we left Ulm a copy of the locality descriptions by Pearce, from his thesis back in 1987, arrived here by interlibrary loan service (too late). I am still wondering whether there is a collector who owns specimens for trade from those places. A few days ago the Munich mineral show ended. As every year a great event not to be missed by any collector living not too far away. From my view as a collector of zeolites I did not see too many "news". One of them was stilbite, small orange crystals from a mine in Peru. Unfortunately the dealer asked for crazy prices, about 40 Euro for a 4x5 cm sample. I went to him again on saturday in the afternoon and the complete lot was still there. He spoke Spanish only so I could not discuss why he did so. Nevertheless I spent some money. For example I bought a micromount of partheite from the type locality in Turkey. Never saw a sample from there. This one came from an old systematic collection, the owner died a few years ago. I guess you are a reader of Micro Probe were Don Howard is writing his updates on zeolite species. He also mentioned partheite there. BTW, in the last issue 4/2006 he missed a few newer localities. I sent him an addition which should be useful to zeolite collectors. Apart from zeolites I saw and admired a lot of beautiful minerals in Munich. From China there were beautiful fluorites of course. One locality produced blue to green cubes, pretty and clear, and showing very sharp edges, sometimes with brown inclusions. Very nice specimens compared to most other "common" Chinese fluorite. A new locality in the Adamello mountains, Italian alpes, was producing brown grossular crystals which are a nice addition to my cabinet. To protect the locality the collector did not give the exact name and promised to do so next year. This will be another funny opportunity to "talk" in Italian which is a language I do not speak. The special exhibition, masterpieces from the Houston museum, was another thing not to forget. This museum obviously found its way to collect big money which is so difficult for other museums, as the stories from Philadelphia are telling us. I think a visit to Houston should be worth the time. That is it for today. I close and send my best wishes from Ulm J?rgen John and Gloria Cornish schrieb: > Hi Everyone, > > This years Denver show was terrific and I really had a great time. After > the show, I headed straight to our Rat's Nest mine near Challis, Idaho > and conducted this years specimen mining operation. Visiting this year > was friend Chris Tucker from Montana. Chris had a good time digging and > exploring and has written an update for his website detailing some of > his experiences which you can enjoy by going to the link in his copied > email below, one he sent out just this morning. I'll have my own paper > up one of these days, in the mean time, Chris has done a great job and I > think you'll enjoy the read. All the very best everyone. Take care, > > John From JWachsmuth at gmx.de Sat Nov 18 03:27:45 2006 From: JWachsmuth at gmx.de (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Sat Nov 18 03:27:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] wrong address References: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> Message-ID: <455EEE30.C4226646@gmx.de> Hello group, oops, was meant as a personal mail to John. Please excuse me! J?rgen From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Nov 18 09:28:11 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Nov 18 09:28:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 30, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If Digestion is an Issue, you need a doctor ... not a geo-discussion list ;-))) Who invented this abominable way to confuse the users of this list anyway? Wouldn't a Subject-line like '[Rockhounds]Pikes Peak' or ' [Rockhounds]blue barite, or [Rockhounds] Pikes Peak batholite' be more appealing... I had to read this one to make a sensible comment but usually I just delete any message that has a subject line with "Digest" in it. Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]Namens Alpen@aol.com > Verzonden: vrijdag 17 november 2006 23:02 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 30, Issue 12 > > > > Kevin, > > I've only looked a little near Manitou, but without luck. As you > mentioned, > amazonite is supposedly there. Topaz & potentially large smocky quartz > crystals are near there. The Pikes Peak batholith is very large > covering a huge > area in addition to Pikes Peak itself. Futrther up Hwy 24 near > Hartzel you > can find some nice blue barite- assuming access is still available > > The Ute Trail went through your area and goes up through Salida. So > depending on how far you want to drive, there are points. I'm > not familiar with > where around Manitou. I have found points on my sister's > property which is > right off the Ute Trail above Salida. You can also go east of > Colorado Springs > and get permission from land owners to hunt for points on their > land. It's hit > & miss on which ones are open to it. So far no one has greeted > me with a > shot gun. :) Property with a stream or dry wash with exposed > dirt is best. > Around there, they used mostly petrified wood for the points- > some rhyolite > too. > > If you have any luck on sourcing some nice places around Manitou for > crystals and are open to sharing the info, I'd be interested in > learning or even > joining you some time. I also like getting off to more remote > areas that > haven't been picked over as much. > > Eric Bindner > Littleton > > In a message dated 11/15/2006 7:02:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com writes: > > I live Around Manitou Springs and was wondering of places Other > than Pikes > Peak and what minerals to look for. I pan for gold but It mostly > is out > west. > Amazonite outcroppings have been known to scatter the front > range just East > of Manitou but are hard to find. I did however come across many > mines in > the area but it seems that gold was what they were after. Are > there any > other > things around there that may be of interest? > Also,.. Where are arrowheads located around Manitou? Old Indian > settlements long forgotten? Arrowheads are found around here > but I'm sure > it has been > picked over. > Being that there is a lot of granite in the area,.. are there > Beryl types > here? I have found lots of single smoky quartz crystals but are > not well > developed. Thumb size and smaller. > I like hitting the unconventional routes for better finds. > Thanks in advance. > Kevin > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Pmodreski at aol.com Sat Nov 18 20:02:24 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sat Nov 18 20:02:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee Message-ID: I thought this news story might be of interest to the List: _http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=busines sd8lfln5g0&src=ap_ (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=businessd8lfln5g0&src=ap) a perplexing legal dispute; in Tennessee, whether owners of mineral rights on private land have the right to mine building stone against the wishes of the surface property owners. It relates to whether sandstone/fieldstone/flagstone rock will be considered legally "a mineral" and to be "of exceptional value". The article notes that about 50% of the land in the state has separate mineral and surface property ownership, but it has never become an issue until now. Pete M. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Nov 18 22:49:51 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Nov 18 22:25:42 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report Message-ID: <455FF8DA.B6F@Tomaszewski.net> Some weeks ago I received a call from one of my (foster) grandchildren. Her first grade class was starting to study rocks and minerals. Would I please come and show my rock collection to her class? I said I would try, and then talked to her Mom about details. Arranging a classroom visit 200 miles away takes a little planning. It took a couple weeks of exchanging calls, but a date and plan were made. So last Friday I got up way too early, and was out the door by 6 am with about a dozen flats of specimens, my collecting bag, some books, and a suprise specimen gift for each kid (with a label). Four hours and some light snow later I was at the school. I set up in a room that was scheduled to be vacant that day since I would be making presentations to four first grade classes, one right after another, once lunch was over. I then went out to lunch with my (foster) daughter. And then it was time for the first class to come in. I told them that everything we use as humans is either grown (like the wood of their desks, or most of the food they eat), or mined -- dug out of the ground -- and made from rocks and minerals. Today we were going to talk about the stuff that was mined. I mentioned my collecting experience and my local rock club. I had selected most of my specimens so that they would connect to something the children used or saw every day. I picked one up and showed it around the semicircle of children as I talked about it. And then another... Graphite for pencil leads. Gypsum for plaster walls, and limestone for cement. Fluorite for the fluoride in their toothpaste. They all handled a chunk of talc and then had the connection to baby powder made. An 'Ahaa!' moment. Selenite from Glass Mtn. and other locations was used for windows by the pioneers. Iron and copper ores. Magnetite for early compasses. I talked about the use of minerals in jewelry, and showed them gems and native precious metals in the form they are commonly found to expand on the processing that is needed for most minerals before they can be used. Halite for table salt to show they even ate minerals. Aragonite in their teeth. Pumice is used in some toothpaste, and let me introduce igneous rocks. I introduced another igneous rock, granite (a building stone), and talked about the minerals that it was composed of (with examples of each). I talked about weathering and the formation of sedementary rocks, which let me introduce a few fossils, and sand (from the tallest sand dune in the world, in Namibia) to make glass. I talked about metamorphic rocks (sandstone to quartzite) and changes in the earth over time (fossils from mountain tops). Many specimens, and questions, later time ran out (but much too early). I finally had each student select a Schorl specimen (Himalaya Mine, CA) from a BIG box, and take a label, to start their own mineral collection. And then it was time for the next class to come in. Repeat several times and then pack everything back up. Go home with my granddaughter and spend a bit of time. Take everyone out for dinner, and then it was back on the road for the four hour drive home. It sure seemed a lot shorter because I was remembering the smiles of children that were learning. Collections need to be seen before they can be appreciated. Taking (part of) your collection out to be seen is as important as going into the field to add to it. When was the last time a child (and/or prospective rockhound) saw your collection? Kreigh From efkern at earthlink.net Sat Nov 18 22:39:23 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sat Nov 18 22:39:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report References: <455FF8DA.B6F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000601c70ba5$744c8630$82a5f604@TheBlackAdder> Wow! What a great trip report, thanks for posting it. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: Kreigh Tomaszewski To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:49 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report Some weeks ago I received a call from one of my (foster) grandchildren. Her first grade class was starting to study rocks and minerals. Would I please come and show my rock collection to her class? I said I would try, and then talked to her Mom about details. Arranging a classroom visit 200 miles away takes a little planning. It took a couple weeks of exchanging calls, but a date and plan were made. So last Friday I got up way too early, and was out the door by 6 am with about a dozen flats of specimens, my collecting bag, some books, and a suprise specimen gift for each kid (with a label). Four hours and some light snow later I was at the school. I set up in a room that was scheduled to be vacant that day since I would be making presentations to four first grade classes, one right after another, once lunch was over. I then went out to lunch with my (foster) daughter. And then it was time for the first class to come in. I told them that everything we use as humans is either grown (like the wood of their desks, or most of the food they eat), or mined -- dug out of the ground -- and made from rocks and minerals. Today we were going to talk about the stuff that was mined. I mentioned my collecting experience and my local rock club. I had selected most of my specimens so that they would connect to something the children used or saw every day. I picked one up and showed it around the semicircle of children as I talked about it. And then another... Graphite for pencil leads. Gypsum for plaster walls, and limestone for cement. Fluorite for the fluoride in their toothpaste. They all handled a chunk of talc and then had the connection to baby powder made. An 'Ahaa!' moment. Selenite from Glass Mtn. and other locations was used for windows by the pioneers. Iron and copper ores. Magnetite for early compasses. I talked about the use of minerals in jewelry, and showed them gems and native precious metals in the form they are commonly found to expand on the processing that is needed for most minerals before they can be used. Halite for table salt to show they even ate minerals. Aragonite in their teeth. Pumice is used in some toothpaste, and let me introduce igneous rocks. I introduced another igneous rock, granite (a building stone), and talked about the minerals that it was composed of (with examples of each). I talked about weathering and the formation of sedementary rocks, which let me introduce a few fossils, and sand (from the tallest sand dune in the world, in Namibia) to make glass. I talked about metamorphic rocks (sandstone to quartzite) and changes in the earth over time (fossils from mountain tops). Many specimens, and questions, later time ran out (but much too early). I finally had each student select a Schorl specimen (Himalaya Mine, CA) from a BIG box, and take a label, to start their own mineral collection. And then it was time for the next class to come in. Repeat several times and then pack everything back up. Go home with my granddaughter and spend a bit of time. Take everyone out for dinner, and then it was back on the road for the four hour drive home. It sure seemed a lot shorter because I was remembering the smiles of children that were learning. Collections need to be seen before they can be appreciated. Taking (part of) your collection out to be seen is as important as going into the field to add to it. When was the last time a child (and/or prospective rockhound) saw your collection? Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Vewalden at aol.com Sun Nov 19 05:41:28 2006 From: Vewalden at aol.com (Vewalden@aol.com) Date: Sun Nov 19 05:41:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] websites and other Message-ID: All, I am really new to all this. Actually my love and interest has always been there. I have just never taken the opportunity to try and get started. I might eventually get over to the diamond mine in Arkansas to get my appetite and drive going to get into this. Anyway the reason I am writing is because I would like web site addresses of those of you that have them and I would also like to find interesting reading. I know some of the basics but would like to read more about our geology, gems and minerals. So therefore I am also asking if anyone knows of any books that I might get that are interesting reading, but yet are down to earth (no Pun there) and not written like everyone has a PHD in Geology. Thank You from Hazel Green, Alabama; Roll Tide (well they tried) :) Virgil (Rick) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sun Nov 19 06:39:57 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sun Nov 19 06:40:01 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee References: Message-ID: <000801c70be8$98d0fde0$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> It was in our local paper as well. The so-called "Crab Orchard Stone" is big business in Tennessee. Watch almost any garden show on HGTV that deals with landscaping and that is the stone they use! It will be interesting to see how the lawsuit plays out, but I suspect that surface rights will be protected and they won't be able to come in and pick up rock under the "mineral rights" claim. A lot of creekstone is used in Kentucky, but not to the extent of the dimension stone in Indiana (which is quarried) and the loose Tennessee rock. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee >I thought this news story might be of interest to the List: > > _http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=busines > sd8lfln5g0&src=ap_ > (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=businessd8lfln5g0&src=ap) > > a perplexing legal dispute; in Tennessee, whether owners of mineral rights > on private land have the right to mine building stone against the wishes > of the > surface property owners. It relates to whether > sandstone/fieldstone/flagstone rock will be considered legally "a mineral" > and to be "of exceptional > value". The article notes that about 50% of the land in the state has > separate > mineral and surface property ownership, but it has never become an issue > until now. > > Pete M. > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tim at orerockon.com Sun Nov 19 07:20:03 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Nov 19 07:20:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <000801c70be8$98d0fde0$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <000801c70be8$98d0fde0$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061119065021.03ce4008@orerockon.com> But as to whether flagstone is "valuable" - the existence of the lawsuit settles that question definitively, doesn't it? In every case where similar definitions have been contested (that I have read about), if someone has a demonstrable market for the "mineral", it is, by definition, valuable. It is also, by definition, a mineral. A suite of minerals is still a mineral, no? Only if the law specifically excludes a mineral (e.g. petrified wood on BLM land in some western states), then the argument does not hold up. There was a similar issue with the Three River Stone Quarry near Challis ID more than a few years back which still lingers - the shale is so valuable that developers are paying tremendous money for it (my sister's multi-million $ condo "At Nature's Door" in Whistler BC prominently features the stuff, which they lie about and call "local" in their brochure), but the BLM had initially concluded (if my memory still functions lol), that it was not locatable. Some local residents despise the quarry so much that they protest every change in the plan of operations, using the (now moot) argument that flagstone is not a locatable mineral. I am guessing that Alan is right, but the case will be decided on surface vs. mineral rights, not what mineral is being contested. Or, Tennessee may just be one of those wacko states (like AZ) where anything goes :) And from http://makeashorterlink.com/?C3BB4283E : The state's mining law excludes "dimension stone," the trade name for sandstone, mountain stone, slate and fieldstone, from the definition of a mineral, Dr. Urban said. But another portion of the law cited by the Tennessee Department of Revenue states sandstone, which comprises mountain stone, slate and fieldstone, is a mineral. That law directs the state, at the behest of the county where the rock is harvested, to collect a $15-a-ton severance tax on the stone's extraction. Isn't that typical? When state revenue is at issue, I would be willing to bet that dirt would be defined as a mineral if it retailed for $75/ton :P P.S. Their attorney lies - they all do. He could find oodles of cases, especially in the west, where the issue of what is a "mineral" was contested - but why would he, it wouldn't support clients' position. Heck, if he did, I would fire him. At 06:39 AM 11/19/2006, you wrote: >It was in our local paper as well. The so-called "Crab Orchard >Stone" is big business in Tennessee. Watch almost any garden show on >HGTV that deals with landscaping and that is the stone they use! It >will be interesting to see how the lawsuit plays out, but I suspect >that surface rights will be protected and they won't be able to come >in and pick up rock under the "mineral rights" claim. A lot of >creekstone is used in Kentucky, but not to the extent of the >dimension stone in Indiana (which is quarried) and the loose Tennessee rock. > >Alan > >----- Original Message ----- From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:02 PM >Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee > > >>I thought this news story might be of interest to the List: >> >>_http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=busines >>sd8lfln5g0&src=ap_ >>(http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=businessd8lfln5g0&src=ap) >> >>a perplexing legal dispute; in Tennessee, whether owners of mineral rights >>on private land have the right to mine building stone against the >>wishes of the >>surface property owners. It relates to whether >>sandstone/fieldstone/flagstone rock will be considered legally "a >>mineral" and to be "of exceptional >>value". The article notes that about 50% of the land in the state >>has separate >>mineral and surface property ownership, but it has never become an issue >>until now. >> >>Pete M. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 08:43:23 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 19 08:43:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Interesting geology article Message-ID: Thought this might be of some interest: BK -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lanny at lrream.com Sun Nov 19 09:32:58 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Nov 19 09:32:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20061119065021.03ce4008@orerockon.com> References: <000801c70be8$98d0fde0$6601a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <7.0.0.16.2.20061119065021.03ce4008@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <94480ac02ce3f276826f4e4b23020171@lrream.com> Tim, it isn't quite as simple as you state in your first paragraph. What you state is a good description of the situation with the the minerals which we typically think of as locatable, but not to stone. Stone/rock was withdrawn from the locatable minerals by P.L. 167 in 1955. That law declared that "common varieties" of stone are not locatable, salable only. For stone to become locatable it must be proven to be an "uncommon" variety, meaning it must have some unique property that puts it above most stone and thus it commands a greater price. Some people argue that such decision should compare stone to all stone. Thus, if it has building stone qualities and can be mined and sold, then it is an uncommon variety. Others argue that the intent of the law is that each stone must have unique characteristics giving it a greater value than similar stone to be an uncommon variety. Thus, if it is a slate that can be used for flagstone, then it is only an uncommon variety and thus locatable if there is something that makes it unique compared to most flagstone and it will thus bring a premium price over other flagstone. The latter of course restricts locatable stone to only a few deposits, whereas the former makes any stone that can be mined and sold locatable. Court decisions have mostly gone for the latter (the more restrictive meaning), but some have been for the former. Of course that is on public land, locatable vs. salable. The meaning of "mineral" under the laws separating the mineral and surface rights is a whole different thing. One could see the meaning and intent of "mineral" being only those things normally considered to be what we think of as being energy minerals and metallic minerals (what we mostly think of when we think of mining), or they could be very liberal and include anything of mineral origin that can be sold. The latter could thus include sand and gravel and all building stone; everything on the surface except the soil. Some on the list may remember that 20-30 or so years ago Montana went through a similar problem, not on the definition of what is a mineral but the conflict of surface rights vs. mineral rights. In the big coal mining areas the coal ranchers often didn't own the mineral rights. The expansion of coal mining meant that the surface would be stripped off (good by cattle ranching) and the coal extracted. The owners of the "rights" won. The coal mining companies were allowed to mine the land, but have to reclaim the land to a usable condition. Regards, Lanny On Nov 19, 2006, at 7:20 AM, Tim Fisher wrote: > But as to whether flagstone is "valuable" - the existence of the > lawsuit settles that question definitively, doesn't it? In every case > where similar definitions have been contested (that I have read > about), if someone has a demonstrable market for the "mineral", it is, > by definition, valuable. It is also, by definition, a mineral. A suite > of minerals is still a mineral, no? Only if the law specifically > excludes a mineral (e.g. petrified wood on BLM land in some western > states), then the argument does not hold up. There was a similar issue > with the Three River Stone Quarry near Challis ID more than a few > years back which still lingers - the shale is so valuable that > developers are paying tremendous money for it (my sister's > multi-million $ condo "At Nature's Door" in Whistler BC prominently > features the stuff, which they lie about and call "local" in their > brochure), but the BLM had initially concluded (if my memory still > functions lol), that it was not locatable. Some local residents > despise the quarry so much that they protest every change in the plan > of operations, using the (now moot) argument that flagstone is not a > locatable mineral. I am guessing that Alan is right, but the case will > be decided on surface vs. mineral rights, not what mineral is being > contested. Or, Tennessee may just be one of those wacko states (like > AZ) where anything goes :) > > And from http://makeashorterlink.com/?C3BB4283E : > The state's mining law excludes "dimension stone," the trade name for > sandstone, mountain stone, slate and fieldstone, from the definition > of a mineral, Dr. Urban said. > But another portion of the law cited by the Tennessee Department of > Revenue states sandstone, which comprises mountain stone, slate and > fieldstone, is a mineral. That law directs the state, at the behest of > the county where the rock is harvested, to collect a $15-a-ton > severance tax on the stone's extraction. > Isn't that typical? When state revenue is at issue, I would be willing > to bet that dirt would be defined as a mineral if it retailed for > $75/ton :P > > P.S. Their attorney lies - they all do. He could find oodles of cases, > especially in the west, where the issue of what is a "mineral" was > contested - but why would he, it wouldn't support clients' position. > Heck, if he did, I would fire him. > > At 06:39 AM 11/19/2006, you wrote: >> It was in our local paper as well. The so-called "Crab Orchard Stone" >> is big business in Tennessee. Watch almost any garden show on HGTV >> that deals with landscaping and that is the stone they use! It will >> be interesting to see how the lawsuit plays out, but I suspect that >> surface rights will be protected and they won't be able to come in >> and pick up rock under the "mineral rights" claim. A lot of >> creekstone is used in Kentucky, but not to the extent of the >> dimension stone in Indiana (which is quarried) and the loose >> Tennessee rock. >> >> Alan >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:02 PM >> Subject: [Rockhounds] sandstone mineral rights in Tennessee >> >> >>> I thought this news story might be of interest to the List: >>> >>> _http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news? >>> e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=busines >>> sd8lfln5g0&src=ap_ >>> (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news? >>> e=pub&dt=061118&cat=business&st=businessd8lfln5g0&src=ap) >>> >>> a perplexing legal dispute; in Tennessee, whether owners of mineral >>> rights >>> on private land have the right to mine building stone against the >>> wishes of the >>> surface property owners. It relates to whether >>> sandstone/fieldstone/flagstone rock will be considered legally "a >>> mineral" and to be "of exceptional >>> value". The article notes that about 50% of the land in the state >>> has separate >>> mineral and surface property ownership, but it has never become an >>> issue >>> until now. >>> >>> Pete M. > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From sinico at nbnet.nb.ca Sun Nov 19 10:20:17 2006 From: sinico at nbnet.nb.ca (Hans Durstling) Date: Sun Nov 19 10:13:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Interesting geology article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97d949caf96635e717661ac9789c2ca0@nbnet.nb.ca> It is of interest. Thanks. Continuing the theme of where were which continents when and how did they break and reassemble and come to be where they are today - is there perhaps a web site that anyone knows of where that process is depicted in a series of time lapse images? It would seem to me to lend itself to that, say at one million year intervals - "this is where they are at 400 million years ago (click) - and at 399 (click) - and at 398 (click) - etc etc." . I wonder if anyone has done that sort of presentation? Cheers, Hans Durstling Moncton, Canada On 19-Nov-06, at 12:43 PM, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > Thought this might be of some interest: > > > > BK > > -- > J Bryan Kramer > photos at: > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 10:25:14 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 19 10:25:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Interesting geology article In-Reply-To: <97d949caf96635e717661ac9789c2ca0@nbnet.nb.ca> References: <97d949caf96635e717661ac9789c2ca0@nbnet.nb.ca> Message-ID: You may find what you are looking for on this site: I haven't explored it. BK On 11/19/06, Hans Durstling wrote: > > It is of interest. Thanks. > > Continuing the theme of where were which continents when and how did > they break and reassemble and come to be where they are today - is > there perhaps a web site that anyone knows of where that process is > depicted in a series of time lapse images? It would seem to me to lend > itself to that, say at one million year intervals - "this is where they > are at 400 million years ago (click) - and at 399 (click) - and at 398 > (click) - etc etc." . I wonder if anyone has done that sort of > presentation? > > Cheers, > Hans Durstling > Moncton, Canada > > > > On 19-Nov-06, at 12:43 PM, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > Thought this might be of some interest: > > > > > > > > BK > > > > -- > > J Bryan Kramer > > photos at: > > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From teyancey at mail.tca.net Sun Nov 19 11:03:01 2006 From: teyancey at mail.tca.net (Thomas Yancey) Date: Sun Nov 19 11:01:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Interesting geology article In-Reply-To: <97d949caf96635e717661ac9789c2ca0@nbnet.nb.ca> References: <97d949caf96635e717661ac9789c2ca0@nbnet.nb.ca> Message-ID: Hans, There are two great web sites that provide just this type of resource. They are the Paleomap project at: www.scotese.com/ and Ron Blakey's web site at Northern Ariz. Univ. jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/globaltext2.html For Blakey's reconstructions, scroll down to the Menu portion of the page and proceed. I like Ron Blakey's map because of the care in providing realistic rendering of the surface, but Chris Scotese had added a lot of artistic component to his drawings as well. Chris has devoted his career to paleogeographic maps and runs a business in providing them to scientists. Neither of these sites can provide million year by million year increments. That is far beyond the precision available in determining ancient continental positions. To do it in million year increments would be creating false precision and be very misleading about the available data. Part of the problem is that smaller components of continents change position over time as tectonic forces act on them. An example is western North America, that is composed of 30 or more pieces that have been fused onto the continent over the past 400 million years and the whole area has also been squeezed into a smaller space and then stretched out into a larger space and pieces have slid from one place to another along the edge of the continent. (Think of San Andreas Fault.) T. Yancey >Continuing the theme of where were which continents when and how did >they break and reassemble and come to be where they are today - is >there perhaps a web site that anyone knows of where that process is >depicted in a series of time lapse images? It would seem to me to >lend itself to that, say at one million year intervals - "this is >where they are at 400 million years ago (click) - and at 399 (click) >- and at 398 (click) - etc etc." . I wonder if anyone has done that >sort of presentation? > >Cheers, >Hans Durstling >Moncton, Canada -- Thomas Yancey From dawnmfredricks at msn.com Sun Nov 19 13:22:21 2006 From: dawnmfredricks at msn.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Sun Nov 19 13:22:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20061119065021.03ce4008@orerockon.com> Message-ID: I never did quite get why you could buy land and not really own all of it. The thought of buying a property for retirement with the intent at some future point of building a little cabin and then suddenly finding out that a mining operation was getting first crack at the land is perplexing to me! These types of operations take years from start to fininsh and then who is left holding the bag if the reclamation is not complete? What if the bond was not enough or there are some kind of environmental concerns after all is said and done? In other words, who had the brilliant idea to let people buy land that they didn't own all rights to? Just wondering...... Dawn From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 19 13:27:40 2006 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Sun Nov 19 13:27:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <351293.13486.qm@web51008.mail.yahoo.com> A Lawyer of course... --- "Dawn M. Fredricks" wrote: I never did quite get why you could buy land and not really own all of it. (snip) In other words, who had the brilliant idea to let people buy land that they didn't own all rights to? > Just wondering...... > Dawn From Cycadwood at aol.com Sun Nov 19 13:35:06 2006 From: Cycadwood at aol.com (Cycadwood@aol.com) Date: Sun Nov 19 13:35:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights Message-ID: <571.afc8315.3292280a@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/2006 2:28:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, mstreman53@yahoo.com writes: I never did quite get why you could buy land and not really own all of it. (snip) In other words, who had the brilliant idea to let people buy land that they didn't own all rights to? Out here in Western Colorado a lot of surface land owners are learning this the hard way when the oil and gas rights are auctioned off by the BLM and the next thing they know there's a gas well in their field with all the smell, noise, bright lights, and pollution that comes with --- it and none of the profit. Water rights are also frequently separate from the land. You can own a ranch with a stream running through it and not be allowed to use any of the water. Frank Frank J. Daniels, Publisher Western Colorado Publishing Company 2024 Freedom Court Grand Junction, Colorado 81503-9522_ cycadwood@aol.com_ (mailto:cycadwood@aol.com) or_ publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com_ (mailto:publisher@westerncoloradopublishing.com) 970.242.5255 cell 970.216.9641 Publisher of Petrified Wood: The World of Fossilized Wood, Cones, Ferns, and Cycads and Ancient Forests: A Closer Look at Fossil Wood. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Nov 19 14:00:10 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Nov 19 14:00:20 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights Message-ID: That it is an interesting question, Dawn--how did this situation come to be? I'd like to read something about the history of this. I just tried to google "history of mineral rights", came up with one article, which was no longer viewable, however when I clicked on the "cached" link it did still come up with link to the original web page that google had found and "cached"; it says in beginning, History of the Ownership of Mineral Rights H. J. Gruy H. J. Gruy and Associates, Inc. Houston, Texas August 11, 1999 The United States of America is the only country in the world in which the gold, oil or natural gas, and other minerals in the ground belong to the surface owner who owns the land in fee simple. In all other countries these underground minerals belong to the King or to the state. But the rest is mostly in reference to Texas, and it mostly addresses how it came to be that the mineral rights belong to the land owner, period, as opposed to being reserved to the State. Here's the url to it, a big long string: _http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:qzbBVAhm60UJ:www.swiftenergy.com/SFY/Inve stor-Info/Industry-Outlook/1999/gruy081199.htm+history+of+mineral+rights&hl=en &gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1_ (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:qzbBVAhm60UJ:www.swiftenergy.com/SFY/Investor-Info/Industry-Outlook/1999/gruy081199.htm+history+of +mineral+rights&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1) I'm thinking (just guessing here) the mixed ownership of right developed when coal companies mostly, started buying up right to mine coal under people's land, offering money for future rights to mine coal there, and then the mineral rights were permanently severed from the land ownership. Maybe that's what happened & maybe it was different, I may browse some more & see if I find anything about it online. Pete M. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Sun Nov 19 17:44:03 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Sun Nov 19 17:44:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] websites and other Message-ID: Hi Rick, Welcome to this great list from L.A. (Lower Alabama). Locate the nearest rock and mineral club to Hazel Green and attend meetings there. This will get you in contact with knowledgeable local rockhounds and you can get access to lots of field trips not open to the general public. This list is a great resource with lots of great folks. Did you read Kreigh's report of his trip to his granddaughter's class? You don't have to have a PHD to gain knowledge and add to what others accomplish. Hang in there, be patient and persistent, and you'll be surprised and amazed at the fun you'll have. Visit MinDat.com and use Google.com to look up lots of good mineral info and find lots more references. Good luck from Irvington, Alabama. WAR EAGLE!!!!!* Glenn{:={O *5! From: Vewalden@aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 08:41:28 -0500 All, I am really new to all this. Actually my love and interest has always been there. I have just never taken the opportunity to try and get started. I might eventually get over to the diamond mine in Arkansas to get my appetite and drive going to get into this. Anyway the reason I am writing is because I would like web site addresses of those of you that have them and I would also like to find interesting reading. I know some of the basics but would like to read more about our geology, gems and minerals. So therefore I am also asking if anyone knows of any books that I might get that are interesting reading, but yet are down to earth (no Pun there) and not written like everyone has a PHD in Geology. Thank You from Hazel Green, Alabama; Roll Tide (well they tried) :)Virgil (Rick) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tim at orerockon.com Sun Nov 19 18:17:17 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Nov 19 18:17:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off Topic: shorter links In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061119181403.03cb22a8@orerockon.com> Pete & group, FYI, I use make a shorter link, takes 30 seconds and you can actually click on it in an email :) http://makeashorterlink.com/index.php Here's your link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2DA2593E At 02:00 PM 11/19/2006, you wrote: >That it is an interesting question, Dawn--how did this situation come to be? > I'd like to read something about the history of this. > >I just tried to google "history of mineral rights", came up with one >article, which was no longer viewable, however when I clicked on the >"cached" link >it did still come up with link to the original web page that google >had found >and "cached"; it says in beginning, > > >History of the Ownership of Mineral Rights > >H. J. Gruy >H. J. Gruy and Associates, Inc. >Houston, Texas >August 11, 1999 >The United States of America is the only country in the world in which the >gold, oil or natural gas, and other minerals in the ground belong to the >surface owner who owns the land in fee simple. In all other countries these >underground minerals belong to the King or to the state. > >But the rest is mostly in reference to Texas, and it mostly addresses how it >came to be that the mineral rights belong to the land owner, period, as >opposed to being reserved to the State. Here's the url to it, a big >long string: > >_http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:qzbBVAhm60UJ:www.swiftenergy.com/SFY/Inve >stor-Info/Industry-Outlook/1999/gruy081199.htm+history+of+mineral+rights&hl=en >&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1_ >(http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:qzbBVAhm60UJ:www.swiftenergy.com/SFY/Investor-Info/Industry-Outlook/1999/gruy081199.htm+history+of >+mineral+rights&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1) > >I'm thinking (just guessing here) the mixed ownership of right developed >when coal companies mostly, started buying up right to mine coal >under people's >land, offering money for future rights to mine coal there, and then the >mineral rights were permanently severed from the land >ownership. Maybe that's what > happened & maybe it was different, I may browse some more & see if I find >anything about it online. > >Pete M. > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 18:54:53 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 19 18:54:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Off Topic: shorter links In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20061119181403.03cb22a8@orerockon.com> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20061119181403.03cb22a8@orerockon.com> Message-ID: There are a couple of those services, but once I discovered that if you enclose a link in angle brackets that they work even if they run to multiple lines. So I just started using brackets and forgot about making the links shorter, much faster too. BK On 11/19/06, Tim Fisher wrote: > > Pete & group, FYI, I use make a shorter link, takes 30 seconds and > you can actually click on it in an email :) > > http://makeashorterlink.com/index.php > > Here's your link: http://makeashorterlink.com/?B2DA2593E > > At 02:00 PM 11/19/2006, you wrote: > >That it is an interesting question, Dawn--how did this situation come > to be? > > I'd like to read something about the history of this. > > > >I just tried to google "history of mineral rights", came up with one > >article, which was no longer viewable, however when I clicked on the > >"cached" link > >it did still come up with link to the original web page that google > >had found > >and "cached"; it says in beginning, > > > > > >History of the Ownership of Mineral Rights > > > >H. J. Gruy > >H. J. Gruy and Associates, Inc. > >Houston, Texas > >August 11, 1999 > >The United States of America is the only country in the world in > which the > >gold, oil or natural gas, and other minerals in the ground belong to the > >surface owner who owns the land in fee simple. In all other > countries these > >underground minerals belong to the King or to the state. > > > >But the rest is mostly in reference to Texas, and it mostly addresses > how it > >came to be that the mineral rights belong to the land owner, period, as > >opposed to being reserved to the State. Here's the url to it, a big > >long string: > > > >_http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:qzbBVAhm60UJ: > www.swiftenergy.com/SFY/Inve > > >stor-Info/Industry-Outlook/1999/gruy081199.htm+history+of+mineral+rights&hl=en > >&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1_ > >( > http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:qzbBVAhm60UJ:www.swiftenergy.com/SFY/Investor-Info/Industry-Outlook/1999/gruy081199.htm+history+of > >+mineral+rights&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1) > > > >I'm thinking (just guessing here) the mixed ownership of right developed > >when coal companies mostly, started buying up right to mine coal > >under people's > >land, offering money for future rights to mine coal there, and then the > >mineral rights were permanently severed from the land > >ownership. Maybe that's what > > happened & maybe it was different, I may browse some more & see if > I find > >anything about it online. > > > >Pete M. > > > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com > Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Nov 19 18:59:29 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Nov 19 18:58:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] websites and other References: Message-ID: <456119CF.127D@Tomaszewski.net> The first website you want to visit is http://www.amfed.org so you can find a rock club near you. A good intro to geology is the prize winning book "Annals of the Former World" by John McPhee. I have some links for Rockhounds on my website at http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/MineralLinks.shtml Kreigh Vewalden@aol.com wrote: > > All, > > I am really new to all this. Actually my love and interest has always been > there. I have just never taken the opportunity to try and get started. I > might eventually get over to the diamond mine in Arkansas to get my appetite and > drive going to get into this. Anyway the reason I am writing is because I > would like web site addresses of those of you that have them and I would also > like to find interesting reading. I know some of the basics but would like to > read more about our geology, gems and minerals. So therefore I am also asking > if anyone knows of any books that I might get that are interesting reading, > but yet are down to earth (no Pun there) and not written like everyone has a > PHD in Geology. Thank You from Hazel Green, Alabama; Roll Tide (well they > tried) :) > > Virgil (Rick) From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 19 19:02:24 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 19 19:02:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] websites and other In-Reply-To: <456119CF.127D@Tomaszewski.net> References: <456119CF.127D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Darn there's a rock club here and I never knew about it. I know the president, slightly, too. Heh. BK On 11/19/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > The first website you want to visit is http://www.amfed.org so you can > find a rock club near you. > > A good intro to geology is the prize winning book "Annals of the Former > World" by John McPhee. > > I have some links for Rockhounds on my website at > http://Tomaszewski.net/Kreigh/Minerals/MineralLinks.shtml > > Kreigh > > > Vewalden@aol.com wrote: > > > > All, > > > > I am really new to all this. Actually my love and interest has > always been > > there. I have just never taken the opportunity to try and get started. I > > might eventually get over to the diamond mine in Arkansas to get my > appetite and > > drive going to get into this. Anyway the reason I am writing is because > I > > would like web site addresses of those of you that have them and I > would also > > like to find interesting reading. I know some of the basics but would > like to > > read more about our geology, gems and minerals. So therefore I am also > asking > > if anyone knows of any books that I might get that are interesting > reading, > > but yet are down to earth (no Pun there) and not written like everyone > has a > > PHD in Geology. Thank You from Hazel Green, Alabama; Roll Tide (well > they > > tried) :) > > > > Virgil (Rick) > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jg81638 at aol.com Sun Nov 19 19:08:50 2006 From: jg81638 at aol.com (jg81638@aol.com) Date: Sun Nov 19 19:09:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Interesting geology article In-Reply-To: References: <97d949caf96635e717661ac9789c2ca0@nbnet.nb.ca> Message-ID: <8C8DA68568A7865-87C-9BB6@FWM-R01.sysops.aol.com> I've just come across a site billed as a Plate Tectonic Reconstruction Service as follows: http://www.odsn.de/services/paleomap/paleomap.html I haven't played with it yet but anyone interested might like to try it. Jim Groves -----Original Message----- From: codeburner@gmail.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Interesting geology article You may find what you are looking for on this site: I haven't explored it. BK On 11/19/06, Hans Durstling wrote: > > It is of interest. Thanks. > > Continuing the theme of where were which continents when and how did > they break and reassemble and come to be where they are today - is > there perhaps a web site that anyone knows of where that process is > depicted in a series of time lapse images? It would seem to me to lend > itself to that, say at one million year intervals - "this is where they > are at 400 million years ago (click) - and at 399 (click) - and at 398 > (click) - etc etc." . I wonder if anyone has done that sort of > presentation? > > Cheers, > Hans Durstling > Moncton, Canada > > > > On 19-Nov-06, at 12:43 PM, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > Thought this might be of some interest: > > > > > > > > BK > > > > -- > > J Bryan Kramer > > photos at: > > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Mon Nov 20 08:17:27 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Mon Nov 20 08:17:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Trip Report In-Reply-To: <455FF8DA.B6F@Tomaszewski.net> References: <455FF8DA.B6F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <4561D517.9@tenforward.com> Hi Kreigh, Thank you for posting your report for the list to enjoy. Volunteering is such a rewarding activity, especially when sharing ones passion. These types of reports are precious and all too infrequent. Thank you for sharing. All the very best, John Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >Some weeks ago I received a call from one of my (foster) grandchildren. >Her first grade class was starting to study rocks and minerals. Would I >please come and show my rock collection to her class? > >I said I would try, and then talked to her Mom about details. Arranging >a classroom visit 200 miles away takes a little planning. It took a >couple weeks of exchanging calls, but a date and plan were made. > >So last Friday I got up way too early, and was out the door by 6 am with >about a dozen flats of specimens, my collecting bag, some books, and a >suprise specimen gift for each kid (with a label). > >Four hours and some light snow later I was at the school. I set up in a >room that was scheduled to be vacant that day since I would be making >presentations to four first grade classes, one right after another, once >lunch was over. I then went out to lunch with my (foster) daughter. > >And then it was time for the first class to come in. I told them that >everything we use as humans is either grown (like the wood of their >desks, or most of the food they eat), or mined -- dug out of the ground >-- and made from rocks and minerals. Today we were going to talk about >the stuff that was mined. I mentioned my collecting experience and my >local rock club. > >I had selected most of my specimens so that they would connect to >something the children used or saw every day. I picked one up and showed >it around the semicircle of children as I talked about it. And then >another... > >Graphite for pencil leads. Gypsum for plaster walls, and limestone for >cement. Fluorite for the fluoride in their toothpaste. They all handled >a chunk of talc and then had the connection to baby powder made. An >'Ahaa!' moment. > >Selenite from Glass Mtn. and other locations was used for windows by the >pioneers. Iron and copper ores. Magnetite for early compasses. > >I talked about the use of minerals in jewelry, and showed them gems and >native precious metals in the form they are commonly found to expand on >the processing that is needed for most minerals before they can be used. >Halite for table salt to show they even ate minerals. Aragonite in their >teeth. > >Pumice is used in some toothpaste, and let me introduce igneous rocks. I >introduced another igneous rock, granite (a building stone), and talked >about the minerals that it was composed of (with examples of each). I >talked about weathering and the formation of sedementary rocks, which >let me introduce a few fossils, and sand (from the tallest sand dune in >the world, in Namibia) to make glass. I talked about metamorphic rocks >(sandstone to quartzite) and changes in the earth over time (fossils >from mountain tops). > >Many specimens, and questions, later time ran out (but much too early). >I finally had each student select a Schorl specimen (Himalaya Mine, CA) >from a BIG box, and take a label, to start their own mineral collection. >And then it was time for the next class to come in. > >Repeat several times and then pack everything back up. Go home with my >granddaughter and spend a bit of time. Take everyone out for dinner, and >then it was back on the road for the four hour drive home. It sure >seemed a lot shorter because I was remembering the smiles of children >that were learning. > >Collections need to be seen before they can be appreciated. Taking (part >of) your collection out to be seen is as important as going into the >field to add to it. When was the last time a child (and/or prospective >rockhound) saw your collection? > >Kreigh > > > From lanny at lrream.com Mon Nov 20 09:18:53 2006 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:18:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dawn, It was probably several factors, but I expect the history could be traced back to Europe. It could happen as simply as someone deciding to sell a chunk of land but knowing that there are mineral values decides to only sell the surface rights. It's too bad down the road for the surface land owner if he doesn't want any mining later, but he should have thought of that when the land was purchased. If you gamble in anything in life, you can win, or you can lose. As to lands in the western US. Congress did it in many instances. In areas where mineral values were known, as lands were sold, given away, or otherwise transferred from government control to private ownership, various legislation maintained the mineral rights with the government. This is actually one of the cases where the government thought of value to the people and didn't just give it all away. The law recognizes three estates for any chunk of land, as pointed out in other messages: surface, water and mineral. Regards, Lanny On Nov 19, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Dawn M. Fredricks wrote: > I never did quite get why you could buy land and not really own all of > it. The thought of buying a property for retirement with the intent > at some future point of building a little cabin and then suddenly > finding out that a mining operation was getting first crack at the > land is perplexing to me! These types of operations take years from > start to fininsh and then who is left holding the bag if the > reclamation is not complete? What if the bond was not enough or there > are some kind of environmental concerns after all is said and done? > In other words, who had the brilliant idea to let people buy land that > they didn't own all rights to? > > Just wondering...... > Dawn > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From codeburner at gmail.com Mon Nov 20 09:33:47 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:33:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well maybe in the west, but almost always in the eastern part of the country surface water on the property belongs to the property owner. Subsurface water is often regulated, but that in general means that the government tells the property owner how big a well he can drill. BK > > The law recognizes three estates for any chunk of land, as pointed out > in other messages: surface, water and mineral. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ajs at frii.com Mon Nov 20 09:52:23 2006 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:52:26 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061120175223.637E04D26A@io.frii.com> > Well maybe in the west, but almost always in the eastern part of the > country surface water on the property belongs to the property owner. The rules in Colorado, at least, can seem very weird by comparison. Of course we live in a near-desert, at least most of us, east of the Front Range on the western edge of the shortgrass steppe ("prairie"), where we get about 15" of precip water a year. Without the rivers bringing down winter snowmelt, "life as we know it" would be difficult. One of the strange rules is that, since the government owns the water and basically doles out the rights to use it, you can't catch the water that falls on your property, even on your roof, and divert it for any use. (Or drill a well without a water use permit.) Another strange rule is that you can't reuse water. For example, it's illegal to let the greywater from your shower run out onto your lawn. Now, I have a big catch-bucket in my basement tumbling shop to let the water settle before siphoning off the clearer portion through a filter bucket to the floor drain. Once in a while when I need a gallon, which needn't be very pure, to throw in the tire tumbler, and the water in the "spooge bucket" is clear enough, I recycle it, although it's technically illegal... Alan Silverstein From jaybates at rcn.com Mon Nov 20 09:56:44 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Mon Nov 20 09:57:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights References: Message-ID: <001001c70ccd$3e991fc0$6501a8c0@cable.rcn.com> Surface water includes both surface runoff and live streams. Live streams and springs belong to whoever files for the rights. Usually surface runoff belongs to the owner of the surface rights but not always. Here in California the irrigation districts snuck through the legislature a law to make it mandatory to have to file for surface runoff rights. They promptly filed claim to all the surface rights they could. It ended up in court and I am still not sure of the outcome, but they have not come around and try to tell me I have to tell me I have to bulldoze my ponds open to allow surface water to flow into their reservoirs as they did to some of my neighbors after they snuck their bill through. Water is for fightin, whiskey is for drinkin!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights > Well maybe in the west, but almost always in the eastern part of the country > surface water on the property belongs to the property owner. Subsurface > water is often regulated, but that in general means that the government > tells the property owner how big a well he can drill. > > BK > > > > > > > The law recognizes three estates for any chunk of land, as pointed out > > in other messages: surface, water and mineral. > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.32/523 - Release Date: 11/7/06 > > From kadok at infowest.com Mon Nov 20 10:01:51 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Mon Nov 20 10:01:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002b01c70ccd$f4eeace0$0200a8c0@kadok> Wnen I bought my home in Santa Monica Ca many years ago, the deed said I didn't own the oil rights (and probably the mineral rights, too, I don't remember). I asked/protested about this, and was told that "it was standard procedure" everywhere, and that, "of course, they weren't going to come and drill for oil" in my yard. I was nonplused, but there was nothing I could do about it. As far as I know they have not drilled for oil there (I sold it 20 years ago, but drove by there last year and there was no sign of any oil wells!) My deed to my present property, in an old silver (copper) mining town in so Utah, says nothing about mineral rights and their ownership. Margaret >That it is an interesting question, Dawn--how did this situation come to >be? >I'd like to read something about the history of this. >I just tried to google "history of mineral rights", came up with one >article, which was no longer viewable, however when I clicked on the >"cached" link >it did still come up with link to the original web page that google had >found >and "cached"; it says in beginning, From jaybates at rcn.com Mon Nov 20 10:22:49 2006 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Mon Nov 20 10:23:36 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights References: <002b01c70ccd$f4eeace0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <000501c70cd0$e3047700$6501a8c0@cable.rcn.com> I am a part owner of mineral rights including oil and gas for 160 acres in Colorado and 320 acres in Wyoming. When my father sold his farm in Colorado, he kept the mineral rights since there was some gas and oil wells within a mile of the farm. After a couple genrations, the number of owners of mineral rights usually multiplies through inheritance. Most people are aware whether they have the mineral rights or not. You should always find out whether you have the mineral rights when you buy property. My property in California includes the mineral rights. The courts have decided in most instances that users of mineral rights have to compensate surface owners when they do damage to them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Malm" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:01 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights > > > Wnen I bought my home in Santa Monica Ca many years ago, the deed said I > didn't own the oil rights (and probably the mineral rights, too, I don't > remember). I asked/protested about this, and was told that "it was standard > procedure" everywhere, and that, "of course, they weren't going to come and > drill for oil" in my yard. I was nonplused, but there was nothing I could > do about it. > As far as I know they have not drilled for oil there (I sold it 20 years > ago, but drove by there last year and there was no sign of any oil wells!) > My deed to my present property, in an old silver (copper) mining town in so > Utah, says nothing about mineral rights and their ownership. > > Margaret > > >That it is an interesting question, Dawn--how did this situation come to > >be? > >I'd like to read something about the history of this. > > >I just tried to google "history of mineral rights", came up with one > >article, which was no longer viewable, however when I clicked on the > >"cached" link > >it did still come up with link to the original web page that google had > >found > >and "cached"; it says in beginning, > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > -- > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.32/523 - Release Date: 11/7/06 > > From tim at orerockon.com Mon Nov 20 10:26:19 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Nov 20 10:26:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: <20061120175223.637E04D26A@io.frii.com> References: <20061120175223.637E04D26A@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061120100820.037b0510@orerockon.com> I don't think that is just a CO issue. I know that the City of Portland caught flack for proposing to fund a bunch of "green roof" projects. The water weirdos (there are a couple of strange groups around here that protest any water-related proposal by the City) argued that the minuscule amount of urban runoff recycled would be better put to use diluting the City's notorious sewage overflows into the Willamette, and they claimed they had the law behind them. Needless to say, their protests were recognized as ludicrous, since the City already is spending billions on, and is under the gun from EPA, to completely separate their sewage and stormwater and treat 100% of both. At 09:52 AM 11/20/2006, you wrote: > > Well maybe in the west, but almost always in the eastern part of the > > country surface water on the property belongs to the property owner. > >The rules in Colorado, at least, can seem very weird by comparison. Of >course we live in a near-desert, at least most of us, east of the Front >Range on the western edge of the shortgrass steppe ("prairie"), where we >get about 15" of precip water a year. Without the rivers bringing down >winter snowmelt, "life as we know it" would be difficult. > >One of the strange rules is that, since the government owns the water >and basically doles out the rights to use it, you can't catch the water >that falls on your property, even on your roof, and divert it for any >use. (Or drill a well without a water use permit.) > >Another strange rule is that you can't reuse water. For example, it's >illegal to let the greywater from your shower run out onto your lawn. >Now, I have a big catch-bucket in my basement tumbling shop to let the >water settle before siphoning off the clearer portion through a filter >bucket to the floor drain. Once in a while when I need a gallon, which >needn't be very pure, to throw in the tire tumbler, and the water in the >"spooge bucket" is clear enough, I recycle it, although it's technically >illegal... > >Alan Silverstein Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From ajs at frii.com Mon Nov 20 12:21:53 2006 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Mon Nov 20 12:21:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Change to property right vs mineral rights In-Reply-To: <002b01c70ccd$f4eeace0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <20061120202153.DC7FA4D26A@io.frii.com> > "of course, they weren't going to come and drill for oil" in my yard. I read in the paper recently that an oil derrick just went up in the middle of a small town in Colorado, Erie I think it was. Not in anyone's yard, but next door. :-) Cheers, Alan Silverstein From cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 17:13:11 2006 From: cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net (Cliff Jackson) Date: Mon Nov 20 17:13:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] SE UT Henry Mountains Petrified Wood Message-ID: <18342853.1164071591943.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> List Planning a trip to the Henry Mts in SE UT, next spring, looking for petfrified wood. Will trade info on some NV sites for info on some Henry Mt sites. Please reply off list. Thanks Cliff Jackson Las Vegas From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Tue Nov 21 09:00:31 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Tue Nov 21 09:00:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Greeting from Ulm In-Reply-To: <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> References: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> Message-ID: <456330AF.6050201@tenforward.com> Hi Juergen, It is very much a pleasure to hear from you again. I'll work right down your letter... Yes, we did get around a bit this year and we did manage some goodies for the time spent out and about. I added a half dozen specimens from Rat's Nest and bits of this and that from my other digs. My paper detailing our mining in Challis has been written, just not launched yet. Look for it to come your way by years end. Space considerations... yes, it is a concern! We've been busting out at the seams and are even toying with the idea of building a shop. Still, the proposed $40,000 it will take is daunting and as we live mainly debt free now (we own our home and vehicles), I'm not sure how much I want to change this. Still, the rocks continue to come home and we'll need to do something! Your trip sounds like a fairy tale, so much adventure, new places and experiences... I'm happy to hear you had such a good time! The canoe trip sounded absolutely beautiful and the road trips sounded long (and my butt still hurts from all the driving I've done this year)! I've not heard of the Crowsnest locality and will have to look into it, you say analcimes are found there, anything else? Are the analcimes important or another locality? I've enjoyed reading the Munich Show reports I've found and looking at the displays and specimens featured. It seems such a pity to me that a show of this magnitude should be so short in duration! I cannot fathom how an individual could see anything let alone everything in so short a time. It must be a frenzied experience! One day with a bit of grace, I'd love to visit, what an adventure that would be! It's been raining here even more then usual these last few weeks and we've another week of forecasted rain coming in. We just finished a show, a small local club show, this last weekend where 2500 folks visited. We offered a full array of goodies, but it was the geode cracking that continues to be our biggest draw and for me, the most fun! Now, back home, I'm faced with the task of repacking everything and putting it all away again, uggh what a chore! Still, it's all part of the fun! I'd like to get out for one more hard-core dig before the year ends and am keeping my fingers crossed for just this very thing! I hope you have a wonderful Holiday Season upcoming and that you and your family enjoy a safe and happy New Years. As always, it is a pleasure to talk with you and I look forward to our next opportunity. Welcome Home and all the very best, see ya, John Juergen Wachsmuth wrote: >Hello John, > >from your messages I learnt that you are back at home. Obviously you spent a >lot of time working at localities and driving to other cities. I guess you >had a great successful collecting season and your collection is growing. >Hopefully space is permitting you to keep your specimens. > >Then I realized that I never sent any email after our trip to Canada this >summer. I beg your pardon, let me do it now. Annette and I returned to >Germany and finally Ulm just as we planned to do at the beginning of august. >After some trouble in the beginning everything went well and smoothly during >our trip in Canada. We really had a great time. Even now it is a pleasure >sitting back and remembering and sending you a few notes. > >In Calgary where we stayed the first days the weather was hot and sunny. We >walked around and learnt about Canadian way of life. We found a great coffee >shop offering freshly baked pastry and we experienced for the >first time that Canadians line up in front of restaurants. Drinks were >ordered and noone complained. This happened again at other places, and was >quite unusual to us. Here we place a reservation before, and it >would be quite unpolite to make guests waiting for more than a few minutes >till they get to their tables. Another day we spent at the stampede grounds, >with rodeo and more interesting exhibitions on horses, farming etc. I guess >this aspect of life may not be the most important in nowadays Canada from >the economic point of view. Canadians seem to like these traditions >nevertheless. The only problem was that we got tired pretty soon. Reason >was that we lost the sleep of one night as our flight was delayed for more >than 8 hours. We spent almost one day in Munich which was not too bad. >Consequently we did not arrive in Calgary in the afternoon but much later >and we went to bed not earlier than 3.30 a.m. You can imagine that - >together with the usual jet lag - this was not an easy start. > >Then we went to the national parks of Alberta and British Columbia. The >weather changed a little bit, it was not stable for a few days what kept us >from doing longer hikes. Staying away from car and tent for too long was not >comfortable to us. Fortunately conditions then changed to the better and we >could do what we both like best: hikes to the backcountry, living outdoors. >We even rented a canoe and used it without any accident. A first time for >us. I especially remember a narrow passage between two lakes, and a deer >walking across just in front of us. Mountains, lakes, forests, glaciers make >up a great landscape and I am happy that we had the chance to get there. By >the way, we did not spot a single bear in the nature despite all the >pictures and warnings and regulations how to behave in case. I understand >this is the best for the bears (and humans too) but it was kind of >disappointing. > >Before our trip I did some reading on the geology of the Rocky Mountains. I >hope I did understand the general concept. Anyhow, looking at the rocks in >detail I was pretty confused. To me it is hard to identify rocks of much >different ages and to see how their connections are. The same situation I >usually face in the alps here in Austria or Switzerland. I should have taken >along a book like "Roadside Geology of ..." but I havn?t. Despite these >problems I enjoyed the experience, for example to see arctomys rocks at Mt. >Robson and of course Burgess shale which Gould is describing in his book on >evolution. To me arctomys was a brand of backpacks, and now I know better. > >While in Canada we realized what long distances are in reality. We tried to >minimize time spend in the car driving and so we did not reach Vancouver. >Annette and I agreed on this while I regretted that as a >consequence I had no chance to meet you. I hope for another time. > >Concerning minerals we did some field trip in the Kamloops area. I got a >precise description of the locality near Westwold and we easily got to >collect rocks containing zeolites there. I have to admit that I did not >even open the bags containg rocks since we have returned to Ulm. Too much >work as usual and other duties. Here in Germany this year we had very high >temperatures and very little rain, not a normal summer for this part of the >world. Our garden suffered and needed attention. And at the hospital we are >building a new part of our pharmacy for producing infusions and injections >under sterile conditions. Quite a task and it is an opportunity not to be >repeated during my working career to change working conditions to an >up-to-date standard. As a consequence I still cannot tell exactly what I >found - I am sure there were chabasite, thomsonite, maybe levyne and >erionite. I also tried another locality at Monte Lake but without success. >The roadcut was obvious, crystallized specimens did not show. > >Around Kamloops and the Okanogan Valley we had lots of sun and pretty high >temperatures. This develloped to be the recreational part of our trip. >Swimming was necessary to cool down. Visits at wineries and restaurants gave >us the feeling of luxury after the days in the mountains. Canadian wine >definitely has its qualities, Grey Monk was an especially nice place we came >across. > >I was not able to collect analcime crystals at the Crowsnest pass area. Did >I ask you about these in the past? I think I did. Even your friend Mr. >Menzies from Calgary does not know the place as he wrote to me. After we >left Ulm a copy of the locality descriptions by Pearce, from his thesis back >in 1987, arrived here by interlibrary loan service (too late). I am still >wondering whether there is a collector who owns specimens for trade from >those places. > >A few days ago the Munich mineral show ended. As every year a great event >not to be missed by any collector living not too far away. From my view as a >collector of zeolites I did not see too many "news". One of them was >stilbite, small orange crystals from a mine in Peru. Unfortunately the >dealer asked for crazy prices, about 40 Euro for a 4x5 cm sample. I went to >him again on saturday in the afternoon and the complete lot was still there. >He spoke Spanish only so I could not discuss why he did so. Nevertheless I >spent some money. For example I bought a micromount of partheite from the >type locality in Turkey. Never saw a sample from there. This one came from >an old systematic collection, the owner died a few years ago. I guess you >are a reader of Micro Probe were Don Howard is writing his updates on >zeolite species. He also mentioned partheite there. BTW, in the last issue >4/2006 he missed a few newer localities. I sent him an addition which should >be useful to zeolite collectors. Apart from zeolites I saw and admired a lot >of beautiful minerals in Munich. From China there were beautiful fluorites >of course. One locality produced blue to green cubes, pretty and clear, and >showing very sharp edges, sometimes with brown inclusions. Very nice >specimens compared to most other "common" Chinese fluorite. A new locality >in the Adamello mountains, Italian alpes, was producing brown grossular >crystals which are a nice addition to my cabinet. To protect the locality >the collector did not give the exact name and promised to do so next year. >This will be another funny opportunity to "talk" in Italian which is a >language I do not speak. The special exhibition, masterpieces from the >Houston museum, was another thing not to forget. This museum obviously found >its way to collect big money which is so difficult for other museums, as the >stories from Philadelphia are telling us. I think a visit to Houston should >be worth the time. > >That is it for today. I close and send my best wishes from Ulm > >J?rgen > > >John and Gloria Cornish schrieb: > > > >>Hi Everyone, >> >>This years Denver show was terrific and I really had a great time. After >>the show, I headed straight to our Rat's Nest mine near Challis, Idaho >>and conducted this years specimen mining operation. Visiting this year >>was friend Chris Tucker from Montana. Chris had a good time digging and >>exploring and has written an update for his website detailing some of >>his experiences which you can enjoy by going to the link in his copied >>email below, one he sent out just this morning. I'll have my own paper >>up one of these days, in the mean time, Chris has done a great job and I >>think you'll enjoy the read. All the very best everyone. Take care, >> >>John >> >> > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From j&gcornish at tenforward.com Tue Nov 21 09:24:33 2006 From: j&gcornish at tenforward.com (John and Gloria Cornish) Date: Tue Nov 21 09:24:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Greeting from Ulm In-Reply-To: <456330AF.6050201@tenforward.com> References: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> <456330AF.6050201@tenforward.com> Message-ID: <45633651.7080301@tenforward.com> Sorry Everyone, my mistake! John John and Gloria Cornish wrote: > Hi Juergen, > > It is very much a pleasure to hear from you again. I'll work right > down your letter... > > Yes, we did get around a bit this year and we did manage some goodies > for the time spent out and about. I added a half dozen specimens from > Rat's Nest and bits of this and that from my other digs. My paper > detailing our mining in Challis has been written, just not launched > yet. Look for it to come your way by years end. Space > considerations... yes, it is a concern! We've been busting out at the > seams and are even toying with the idea of building a shop. Still, the > proposed $40,000 it will take is daunting and as we live mainly debt > free now (we own our home and vehicles), I'm not sure how much I want > to change this. Still, the rocks continue to come home and we'll need > to do something! > > Your trip sounds like a fairy tale, so much adventure, new places and > experiences... I'm happy to hear you had such a good time! The canoe > trip sounded absolutely beautiful and the road trips sounded long (and > my butt still hurts from all the driving I've done this year)! I've > not heard of the Crowsnest locality and will have to look into it, you > say analcimes are found there, anything else? Are the analcimes > important or another locality? > > I've enjoyed reading the Munich Show reports I've found and looking at > the displays and specimens featured. It seems such a pity to me that a > show of this magnitude should be so short in duration! I cannot fathom > how an individual could see anything let alone everything in so short > a time. It must be a frenzied experience! One day with a bit of grace, > I'd love to visit, what an adventure that would be! > > It's been raining here even more then usual these last few weeks and > we've another week of forecasted rain coming in. We just finished a > show, a small local club show, this last weekend where 2500 folks > visited. We offered a full array of goodies, but it was the geode > cracking that continues to be our biggest draw and for me, the most > fun! Now, back home, I'm faced with the task of repacking everything > and putting it all away again, uggh what a chore! Still, it's all part > of the fun! > > I'd like to get out for one more hard-core dig before the year ends > and am keeping my fingers crossed for just this very thing! I hope you > have a wonderful Holiday Season upcoming and that you and your family > enjoy a safe and happy New Years. As always, it is a pleasure to talk > with you and I look forward to our next opportunity. > > Welcome Home and all the very best, see ya, > > John > > Juergen Wachsmuth wrote: > >> Hello John, >> >> from your messages I learnt that you are back at home. Obviously you >> spent a >> lot of time working at localities and driving to other cities. I >> guess you >> had a great successful collecting season and your collection is growing. >> Hopefully space is permitting you to keep your specimens. >> >> Then I realized that I never sent any email after our trip to Canada >> this >> summer. I beg your pardon, let me do it now. Annette and I returned to >> Germany and finally Ulm just as we planned to do at the beginning of >> august. >> After some trouble in the beginning everything went well and smoothly >> during >> our trip in Canada. We really had a great time. Even now it is a >> pleasure >> sitting back and remembering and sending you a few notes. >> >> In Calgary where we stayed the first days the weather was hot and >> sunny. We >> walked around and learnt about Canadian way of life. We found a great >> coffee >> shop offering freshly baked pastry and we experienced for the >> first time that Canadians line up in front of restaurants. Drinks were >> ordered and noone complained. This happened again at other places, >> and was >> quite unusual to us. Here we place a reservation before, and it >> would be quite unpolite to make guests waiting for more than a few >> minutes >> till they get to their tables. Another day we spent at the stampede >> grounds, >> with rodeo and more interesting exhibitions on horses, farming etc. I >> guess >> this aspect of life may not be the most important in nowadays Canada >> from >> the economic point of view. Canadians seem to like these traditions >> nevertheless. The only problem was that we got tired pretty soon. >> Reason >> was that we lost the sleep of one night as our flight was delayed for >> more >> than 8 hours. We spent almost one day in Munich which was not too bad. >> Consequently we did not arrive in Calgary in the afternoon but much >> later >> and we went to bed not earlier than 3.30 a.m. You can imagine that - >> together with the usual jet lag - this was not an easy start. >> >> Then we went to the national parks of Alberta and British Columbia. The >> weather changed a little bit, it was not stable for a few days what >> kept us >> from doing longer hikes. Staying away from car and tent for too long >> was not >> comfortable to us. Fortunately conditions then changed to the better >> and we >> could do what we both like best: hikes to the backcountry, living >> outdoors. >> We even rented a canoe and used it without any accident. A first time >> for >> us. I especially remember a narrow passage between two lakes, and a deer >> walking across just in front of us. Mountains, lakes, forests, >> glaciers make >> up a great landscape and I am happy that we had the chance to get >> there. By >> the way, we did not spot a single bear in the nature despite all the >> pictures and warnings and regulations how to behave in case. I >> understand >> this is the best for the bears (and humans too) but it was kind of >> disappointing. >> >> Before our trip I did some reading on the geology of the Rocky >> Mountains. I >> hope I did understand the general concept. Anyhow, looking at the >> rocks in >> detail I was pretty confused. To me it is hard to identify rocks of >> much >> different ages and to see how their connections are. The same >> situation I >> usually face in the alps here in Austria or Switzerland. I should >> have taken >> along a book like "Roadside Geology of ..." but I havn?t. Despite these >> problems I enjoyed the experience, for example to see arctomys rocks >> at Mt. >> Robson and of course Burgess shale which Gould is describing in his >> book on >> evolution. To me arctomys was a brand of backpacks, and now I know >> better. >> >> While in Canada we realized what long distances are in reality. We >> tried to >> minimize time spend in the car driving and so we did not reach >> Vancouver. >> Annette and I agreed on this while I regretted that as a >> consequence I had no chance to meet you. I hope for another time. >> >> Concerning minerals we did some field trip in the Kamloops area. I got a >> precise description of the locality near Westwold and we easily got to >> collect rocks containing zeolites there. I have to admit that I did not >> even open the bags containg rocks since we have returned to Ulm. Too >> much >> work as usual and other duties. Here in Germany this year we had very >> high >> temperatures and very little rain, not a normal summer for this part >> of the >> world. Our garden suffered and needed attention. And at the hospital >> we are >> building a new part of our pharmacy for producing infusions and >> injections >> under sterile conditions. Quite a task and it is an opportunity not >> to be >> repeated during my working career to change working conditions to an >> up-to-date standard. As a consequence I still cannot tell exactly what I >> found - I am sure there were chabasite, thomsonite, maybe levyne and >> erionite. I also tried another locality at Monte Lake but without >> success. >> The roadcut was obvious, crystallized specimens did not show. >> >> Around Kamloops and the Okanogan Valley we had lots of sun and pretty >> high >> temperatures. This develloped to be the recreational part of our trip. >> Swimming was necessary to cool down. Visits at wineries and >> restaurants gave >> us the feeling of luxury after the days in the mountains. Canadian wine >> definitely has its qualities, Grey Monk was an especially nice place >> we came >> across. >> >> I was not able to collect analcime crystals at the Crowsnest pass >> area. Did >> I ask you about these in the past? I think I did. Even your friend Mr. >> Menzies from Calgary does not know the place as he wrote to me. After we >> left Ulm a copy of the locality descriptions by Pearce, from his >> thesis back >> in 1987, arrived here by interlibrary loan service (too late). I am >> still >> wondering whether there is a collector who owns specimens for trade from >> those places. >> >> A few days ago the Munich mineral show ended. As every year a great >> event >> not to be missed by any collector living not too far away. From my >> view as a >> collector of zeolites I did not see too many "news". One of them was >> stilbite, small orange crystals from a mine in Peru. Unfortunately the >> dealer asked for crazy prices, about 40 Euro for a 4x5 cm sample. I >> went to >> him again on saturday in the afternoon and the complete lot was still >> there. >> He spoke Spanish only so I could not discuss why he did so. >> Nevertheless I >> spent some money. For example I bought a micromount of partheite from >> the >> type locality in Turkey. Never saw a sample from there. This one came >> from >> an old systematic collection, the owner died a few years ago. I guess >> you >> are a reader of Micro Probe were Don Howard is writing his updates on >> zeolite species. He also mentioned partheite there. BTW, in the last >> issue >> 4/2006 he missed a few newer localities. I sent him an addition which >> should >> be useful to zeolite collectors. Apart from zeolites I saw and >> admired a lot >> of beautiful minerals in Munich. From China there were beautiful >> fluorites >> of course. One locality produced blue to green cubes, pretty and >> clear, and >> showing very sharp edges, sometimes with brown inclusions. Very nice >> specimens compared to most other "common" Chinese fluorite. A new >> locality >> in the Adamello mountains, Italian alpes, was producing brown grossular >> crystals which are a nice addition to my cabinet. To protect the >> locality >> the collector did not give the exact name and promised to do so next >> year. >> This will be another funny opportunity to "talk" in Italian which is a >> language I do not speak. The special exhibition, masterpieces from the >> Houston museum, was another thing not to forget. This museum >> obviously found >> its way to collect big money which is so difficult for other museums, >> as the >> stories from Philadelphia are telling us. I think a visit to Houston >> should >> be worth the time. >> >> That is it for today. I close and send my best wishes from Ulm >> >> J?rgen >> >> >> John and Gloria Cornish schrieb: >> >> >> >>> Hi Everyone, >>> >>> This years Denver show was terrific and I really had a great time. >>> After >>> the show, I headed straight to our Rat's Nest mine near Challis, Idaho >>> and conducted this years specimen mining operation. Visiting this year >>> was friend Chris Tucker from Montana. Chris had a good time digging and >>> exploring and has written an update for his website detailing some of >>> his experiences which you can enjoy by going to the link in his copied >>> email below, one he sent out just this morning. I'll have my own paper >>> up one of these days, in the mean time, Chris has done a great job >>> and I >>> think you'll enjoy the read. All the very best everyone. Take care, >>> >>> John >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- From albalmer at att.net Tue Nov 21 10:14:35 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Tue Nov 21 10:14:48 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Greeting from Ulm In-Reply-To: <45633651.7080301@tenforward.com> References: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> <456330AF.6050201@tenforward.com> <45633651.7080301@tenforward.com> Message-ID: <6eg6m2p13t294194qtrj3jdmiekvimhh1l@4ax.com> On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:24:33 -0800, John and Gloria Cornish wrote: >Sorry Everyone, my mistake! You do realize you just did it all over again? -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Nov 21 11:22:44 2006 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 21 11:22:58 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock formations - a geologic name survey In-Reply-To: <6eg6m2p13t294194qtrj3jdmiekvimhh1l@4ax.com> References: <45551AA0.1080800@tenforward.com> <455EC523.C35406C0@gmx.de> <456330AF.6050201@tenforward.com> <45633651.7080301@tenforward.com> <6eg6m2p13t294194qtrj3jdmiekvimhh1l@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8C8DBB98DDAB07C-E24-799B@FWM-R15.sysops.aol.com> Dear Rockhounds List, Here's a question that's been kicking around in my mind since a geologist friend visiting from Europe and I talked about this a couple of months ago. I'd like to offer this as an informal (semi-scientific?) survey for members of this List to respond to, if they care to, and I'll share the results with the whole List. Here's my question, for any of you who care to submit an answer. What, to you, is the best known (most familiar) geologic rock formation name, (a) within the United States, and (b) in the rest of the world? And I am going to ask you to NOT (please note, NOT!, thank you!) send your response to the Rockhounds Listserv, so as not to prejudice/influence others as to what names they might think of. Instead, if you don't mind, send your response by email directly to me, please reply only to the address pmodreski@aol.com I know that people on this Listserv have a great variety in backgrounds, and some are probably very familiar with many geologic names, and some (not being geologists at all, just plain rockhounds & collectors) may not necessarily know any at all--but I'll bet most have heard of at least a few. Those who are really into fossils will probably be familiar with a great many geologic formation names. The names you respond with should be a proper name that is the name of a rock formation or other rock unit (including either sedimentary, igneous, or metamorphic rocks). I don't want to give even one single real example here, because I don't want to "put words in your mouth", but I will give imaginary examples; such as, the Gargantuan Granite, the Fullafossils Formation, the Dingleberry Dolomite, the Semislippery Schist, the Little Lake Licorice Limestone, the Vulcan Volcanics, the Gooseberry Gumbo Group, etc. (yes, please just "vote" for real names, not made up ones like mine) To be honest, one reason I'm curious to do this, is when I started talking about this with the geologist friend, I realized how I'm familiar with many U.S. rock formation names, but that there were fairly few foreign rock formations I knew by name at all, in spite of much reading and a modest amount of traveling overseas; it made me feel very provincial. (Perhaps I'd recognize more if I heard them, but could I come up with them on my own?) So, just for my own curiosity and to share with the List once most of the responses have come in, those who care to, please write to me with your choices for the "best known" (to you) geologic formation name, in and out of the U.S. cheers, and (being provincial again here, I guess), happy Thanksgiving to all, Pete Modreski, Denver, Colorado, USA, pmodreski@aol.com ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Wed Nov 22 07:18:35 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Wed Nov 22 07:18:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk In-Reply-To: <001b01c6f3dc$0de9f930$cbf8f604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <000801c70e49$7ab85250$6a01a8c0@okapi> That time of the year... Get the great stocking stuffer that gives all year! MasMils/PLUS mine location CD! 210,000 mines on one disk! Now on eBay for four more days: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcatspaw-mineralsQQhtZ-1 Thanks! Gary Brown Catspaw-Minerals http://www.catspaw-minerals.com From pmodreski at aol.com Wed Nov 22 10:10:36 2006 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Nov 22 10:10:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <000601c706cf$8941db60$d1f8d04c@LarryRush> References: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net> <000601c706cf$8941db60$d1f8d04c@LarryRush> Message-ID: <8C8DC78A4D0B520-CA8-4190@FWM-R18.sysops.aol.com> To add my 2c to this discussion, Larry, I think there are just too many minerals and too few observable physical properties, to make this kind of "decision tree" key workable in any practical way. And, many of the observable properties (color, crystal habit, etc.) vary too much to make clean positive distinctions; unless one were to limit it to a much smaller number of common minerals. Without recourse to such methods as XRD, chemical analysis by SEM or otherwise, IR or raman spectroscopy, and the more traditional refractive index and other measurements, it's really not possible to distinguish most of the known minerals unambiguously. One could make a mostly workable decision tree for the (one or two hundred) most common minerals, and then selectively add to each determined identity, "or, any of a possible ____* other similar but less common mineral species" * filling in the blank with the appropriate number in each case; 37, 164, 297, etc. sorry it's not easier... Pete -----Original Message----- From: larryrush@worldnet.att.net To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that it was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: metallic/non-metallic luster color streak hardness species The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can run down the different species qualifications pretty fast. (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find it is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. Larry Rush ================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral > identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 > questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least > number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the > subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject > matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of > the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one > unique mineral. > > Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but > field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all > minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with > different questions. > > For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually > uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, > followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is > which is the best approach? > > IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the > different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done > in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by > mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other > similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and > reference publications (that are usually more complete than most > fieldbooks). > > Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative > identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number > of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before > declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", > which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart > enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid > answer) -- or come back to them later. > > Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to > identifying any known mineral? > > And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for > identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive > overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Wed Nov 22 10:17:42 2006 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Wed Nov 22 10:17:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mobile, Alabama Jewelry, Gem & Mineral Show Nov 24-26 Message-ID: The Mobile Rock and Gem Society is happy to announce the 12th Annual Mobile, Alabama Jewelry, Gem & Mineral Show Nov 24-26 at the Greater Gulf States Fairgrounds at the intersection of Cody Road and Zeigler Boulevard. The times are: Friday Nov 24, 2PM - 7PM Saturday Nov 25, 9AM - 6PM Sunday Nov 26, 10AM - 5PM Admission is only $3. Bring a copy of this email and save $1 each! Children under 12 are admitted free with an adult. Parking is FREE! We will have dealers from all over the country with jewelry, gems, minerals, fossils, and much more. Also there will be demonstrations, displays, a sluice, door prizes, raffles, food, and fun! Ya'll come! Glenn & Jeanette Wimpee _________________________________________________________________ Search from any Web page with powerful protection. Get the FREE Windows Live Toolbar Today! http://get.live.com/toolbar/overview --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 22 11:09:05 2006 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Wed Nov 22 11:08:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <4557DC8F.7038@Tomaszewski.net><000601c706cf$8941db60$d1f8d04c@LarryRush> <8C8DC78A4D0B520-CA8-4190@FWM-R18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001b01c70e69$ae905d00$d7dc2c4b@LarryRush> Pete, et al; I agree completely with your (and others) assessments. However, I still find myself turning to Kraus, Hunt (and other printed references) at least a dozen times a year, either for confirmation of my assumed IDs based on experience, or for a new ID, and, not having access to many other modes of identification, find it a worthwhile practice. Maybe this whole question should be noted "as a means of ID limited to those more common species, or to those collectors with a limited background or contacts for identification." And, certainly, if the "tree" method works on paper, it will work with a simple computer program. At any rate, I think Kreigh got a lot of input to his question, enough to be able to decide if a program will work for his needs. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > To add my 2c to this discussion, > > Larry, I think there are just too many minerals and too few observable > physical properties, to make this kind of "decision tree" key workable in > any practical way. And, many of the observable properties (color, crystal > habit, etc.) vary too much to make clean positive distinctions; unless one > were to limit it to a much smaller number of common minerals. > > Without recourse to such methods as XRD, chemical analysis by SEM or > otherwise, IR or raman spectroscopy, and the more traditional refractive > index and other measurements, it's really not possible to distinguish most > of the known minerals unambiguously. > > One could make a mostly workable decision tree for the (one or two > hundred) most common minerals, and then selectively add to each determined > identity, > > "or, any of a possible ____* other similar but less common mineral > species" > > * filling in the blank with the appropriate number in each case; 37, 164, > 297, etc. > > sorry it's not easier... > > Pete > > > -----Original Message----- > From: larryrush@worldnet.att.net > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Sent: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > Kreigh: I once wrote a program for such a tree, based on Kraus, Hunt and > Ramsdell's "Mineralogy", but after doing all of the coding, I found that > it was easier and faster to use their book! They use the following tree: > > metallic/non-metallic luster > color > streak > hardness > species > > The species box than contains formula, cleavage, etc. so that you can run > down the different species qualifications pretty fast. > (I think I am remembering that logic correctly) > > I don't know if they are still published. My edition is 1959, and I find > it is still the easiest to use for quick physical identification. > > Larry Rush > > ================================== > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:54 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > >> I'm looking for an online decision tree type of resource for mineral >> identification (or a computer application). Something that would play 20 >> questions with me and come up with an identication, asking the least >> number of questions. With only four thousand some known minerals, the >> subject matter is small enough that it should be embodied into subject >> matter expert software by now. Assuming each question eliminated half of >> the minerals, it only takes thirteen questions, at most, to get to one >> unique mineral. >> >> Now I realize that the typical field guide follows this approach, but >> field guides tend to be limited to the most common 10% to 20% of all >> minerals. Also, different field guides start their decision tree with >> different questions. >> >> For example, Audubon starts with color and then hardness, and usually >> uses streak next; Schumann starts with streak and then hardness, >> followed by lustre and then specific gravity. The obvious question is >> which is the best approach? >> >> IMO, Pough isn't really a field guide. While Pough talks about the >> different ways to identify minerals, the identification process is done >> in reverse. It assummes you already have a tentative identification, by >> mineral name, and need to confirm it (or distinguish it from other >> similar minerals). This is also true of many mineralogy textbooks and >> reference publications (that are usually more complete than most >> fieldbooks). >> >> Ideally the software would ask questions to get to a tentative >> identication, inform you when it had one, and then ask a minimum number >> of confirming questions (that would probably involve lab work) before >> declaring positive identication (which could include "unknown mineral", >> which I would expect it to double check). The software should be smart >> enough to let you skip some questions (don't know would be a valid >> answer) -- or come back to them later. >> >> Where can I find a resource that identifies the shortest path to >> identifying any known mineral? >> >> And if no such resource is available, what approach is best for >> identifying an unknown mineral (without resorting to the expensive >> overhead of owning XRD, SRD, etc., type of equipment)? >> >> Kreigh >> >> -- > _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jr50wv at yahoo.com Wed Nov 22 11:55:44 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Wed Nov 22 11:55:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] McPhee book(s) Message-ID: <20061122195544.36669.qmail@web56314.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Kreigh, Interesting that you enjoyed Annals of the Former World so much. I've enjoyed a lot of interesting things by McPhee, many of which wind up talking about local geology in an essay about something completely different, in order to orient the reader to the local conditions. I read each 'book' of Annals as it was published over, what - 20 years, maybe? - and then got the magnum opus updated and sewn together. Worth reading several times. I've traveled all over North America thinking about the geology described in McPhee underfoot, from the Blue Ridge to Wyoming, in the Basin and Range and the Front Range, etc. One of many things that fostered my interest in rocks, etc. Which reminds me... Who ever provided the Strombolian Eruption web site links recently...Way To GO! Those photos were great, and then I figured out that they offered guided trips right up to the site of the eruption(s) so you could take your own pictures! Totally wonderfully cool! Like visiting the Poland Mining Camp, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see world-class geology right there in front of you/ KoR you all, and happy Thanksgiving everyone! JR --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Nov 22 12:07:38 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Nov 22 12:07:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] McPhee book(s) / Stromboli References: <20061122195544.36669.qmail@web56314.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c70e71$dca96210$7da2f604@TheBlackAdder> JR, I posted the Stromboli links. Glad you enjoyed them. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. R. Hodel" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 11:55 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] McPhee book(s) Kreigh, Interesting that you enjoyed Annals of the Former World so much. I've enjoyed a lot of interesting things by McPhee, many of which wind up talking about local geology in an essay about something completely different, in order to orient the reader to the local conditions. I read each 'book' of Annals as it was published over, what - 20 years, maybe? - and then got the magnum opus updated and sewn together. Worth reading several times. I've traveled all over North America thinking about the geology described in McPhee underfoot, from the Blue Ridge to Wyoming, in the Basin and Range and the Front Range, etc. One of many things that fostered my interest in rocks, etc. Which reminds me... Who ever provided the Strombolian Eruption web site links recently...Way To GO! Those photos were great, and then I figured out that they offered guided trips right up to the site of the eruption(s) so you could take your own pictures! Totally wonderfully cool! Like visiting the Poland Mining Camp, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see world-class geology right there in front of you/ KoR you all, and happy Thanksgiving everyone! JR --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From efkern at earthlink.net Fri Nov 24 00:10:35 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Fri Nov 24 00:11:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Volcanic Calderas Website Message-ID: <001101c70fa0$05f2f120$a6a0f604@TheBlackAdder> Dear volcanophiles: I would like to draw your attention to a new website and blog, relating to the study of volcanic calderas. This website contains information which some of you might find useful, including an almost 700-entries strong reference list of caldera related research. Feedback is always welcome. Please visit http://eis.bris.ac.uk/~gljhg/Workgroup/Workgroup.html for more information. Cheers Jo ---------------------- Dr J. Gottsmann Department of Earth Sciences University of Bristol Wills Memorial Building Queen's Road BRISTOL BS8 1RJ Tel: 0117 9545422 Fax: 0117 9253385 From efkern at earthlink.net Fri Nov 24 11:26:01 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Fri Nov 24 11:25:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Etna eruption update: 22 November 2006 Message-ID: <000501c70ffe$60deea40$13a3f604@TheBlackAdder> ***************************** Summit eruption continues at Mount Etna Istituto Nazionale di Geofisica e Vulcanologia - Sezione di Catania From: Boris Behncke (behncke@ct.ingv.it) and Sonia Calvari (calvari@ct.ingv.it) ***************************** (All times are in GMT) Episodic eruptive activity continued at the Southeast Crater of Etna (SEC) through late November 2006, involving a number of explosive and effusive vents on and around the SEC cone. At the same time, constant lava effusion continued from a short fissure at 2800 m elevation on the upper ESE flank (the western headwall of the Valle del Bove), contributing to the growth of a complex lava field up to 3 km long. One particularly violent episode on 16 November culminated with the fracturing and piecemeal collapse of the SSE flank of the SEC cone, accompanied by explosions, rockfalls, steam and rock debris. The following is from Boris Behncke and Sonia Calvari and is based on daily observations by numerous individuals of the INGV staff (see www.ct.ingv.it for reports in Italian, updates and individual authorships). Following one week of intermittent ash emissions and weak Strombolian activity on late 4 November, a new strong eruptive episode (the 10th since late August 2006) started at the SEC summit vent at 2004 on 5 November and continued with some fluctuations and intermittent ash emissions for the next 9.5 hours. Light ash falls occurred over populated areas to the SE. At about 21.47 on the 5th, the effusion rate increased at a vent at 3050 m altitude at the southern base of the central summit cone (herafter named "3050 m vent"), which had been continuously active since 27 October. A new lobe of lava traveled across the flat area south of Etna's summit cone complex (known as the Cratere del Piano). An apparent increase in the effusion rate was also noted at the effusive fissure at 2800 m on the ESE flank (hereafter named "2800 m vent"), with active lava lobes extending downslope. Lava effusion from the 3050 vent ended during the forenoon of 6 November, and for the following 48 hours, lava emission continued only at the 2800 vent. The next (11th) eruptive episode at the SEC occurred on 8 November. Ash emissions from the summit of the SEC were followed by vigorous Strombolian activity that continued until approximately 2200. Around 1600, lava started to flow from a new vent located in the saddle between the SEC cone and the adjacent main summit cone, at an elevation of ~3180 m (hereafter referred to as "3180 m vent"). The lava reached the SW base of the SEC cone in a few minutes where it bifurcated into several short lobes, the largest and westernmost lobe stopping at the E margin of the lava flow field from the 3050 m vent. Lava from the 3180 m vent had ceased flowing by ~1845 whereas spattering and lava effusion continued at the 3050 m vent for some time; spattering ended at that vent around 1930 but lava continued to flow for another 24 hours. Eruptive episode #12 from the SEC started at 2100 on 10 November, when the volcanic tremor amplitude showed a rapid increase. Bad weather hampered visual observations until 11 November, when it became evident that this episode had repeated in much detail its predecessor, with lava emission occurring from both the 3050 m and 3180 m vents. Strombolian activity from the SEC summit ceased at 1100 on 11 November. Lava emission from the 3050 m vent continued until the following night, and the associated lava flow field grew mainly on its W side, with flow fronts descending to ~2800 m. For the next five days, lava emission continued unabated from the 2800 m vent, whereas the SEC and all other vents remained inactive. Following a sharp increase in volcanic tremor amplitude at 0500 on 16 November, vigorous ash emissions started at the SEC summit at 0507 and were gradually replaced by intense Strombolian bursts, marking the onset of eruptive episode #13. Very early during this episode, lava issued from the 3180 m vent, forming a lobe about 100 m long before activity at this vent ceased. Lava effusion from the summit started at 0615 and triggered a series of rockfalls down the SE flank of the SEC cone, before the lava descended on the same flank. At 0626, brownish ash was emitted from a spot next to the effusive vent, and major rockfalls and avalanches started shortly thereafter. These originated at the S rim of what remained of the 2004-2005 collapse pit on the E flank of the SEC. Plumes rising from the descending avalanches contained both brownish ash and white steam. Avalanching was most intense between 0631 and 0640, after which the new lava flow rapidly descended the lower SE flank of the cone and began to extend beyond its base toward the area of the 2800 m vent. At the same time, strong emissions of black ash marked the opening of another explosive vent next to the summit, and a third explosive vent became active in the same area. For the next several hours, the vents continued to eject ash and occasionally bombs, and to produce vigorous Strombolian activity. At 0700 emissons of white vapor occurred from the SE flank of the SEC cone; a few minutes later large rock avalanches started to descend that flank. Simultaneously a fissure began to cut from near the summit downslope on the SSE flank, triggering rockfalls and dust avalanches also on that side of the cone. This fissure initially propagated approximately 100 m downslope and then temporarily stopped, before it propagated another 150 m downslope at 0720. During the following 15 minutes, another fissure perpendicular to the earlier one cut SE-ward across the flank, generating more rockfalls and dust avalanches. The resulting fissure system had the form of an inverted Y delimiting a block that was actively pushed outward by magma intruding into the flank of the cone. Lava began to issue from the lower end of the W branch of the fissure system at about 0810. At approximately the same time, the 3050 m vent started to emit lava. By this time, the upper portion of the fissure cutting the SSE flank of the SEC cone had significantly enlarged and become a deep trench. Dense volumes of steam were emitted from this trench at 0831 and were followed a few minutes later by another series of rockfalls and avalanches. Direct observation from ~0.7 km distance showed that the most energetic of these avalanches resulted from the collapse of low fountains of gas and tephra that occurred at the lower end of the large trench. The avalanches and rockfalls lasted approximately 15 minutes, then a voluminous surge of lava issued from the lower end of the opening trench. Over the next few hours this sequence of events (vapor emission - rockfalls and avalanches - lava emission) was repeated several times as the trench widened and propagated further downslope. During the few moments when steam and dust clouds cleared and the interior of the trench became visible, a cascade of very fluid lava was seen in the center of the trench. Apparently, the lava issued from a source high in the head wall of the trench, and at times spurted from the vent like a firehose. At 1100, white steam plumes, rockfalls and dust avalanches appeared high on the SE flank of the SEC cone, in the area where the summit lava flow was emitted. These phenomena marked a major collapse of the eastern wall of the trench, which eventually cut into the descending summit lava flow, diverting it from its original course into the trench. The original flow, which had descended immediately S of the 2800 m vent down to ~2600 m elevation, rapidly stopped, although lava continued to drain from the main flow channel and accumulated in a thickening lobe at the base of the cone. A series of events started at approximately 1425 with several vertical jets of black tephra that shot upward. These emissions occurred at ~150 m distance from the base of the cone and were very distinct in color from the brownish dust clouds which at the same time descended from the trench. The activity at the new site appeared to migrate rapidly both toward the SEC as dark plumes began to rise closer to the cone, while a ground-hugging plume of white vapor shot in the opposite direction. A few tens of seconds later, very dense clouds of dark brown material began to appear at the base of the surging white cloud and formed a distinct flow that rapidly overtook the front of the white cloud while speeding toward SE. At the slope break that forms the W rim of the Valle del Bove (~2800 m) both clouds disappeared from view in weather clouds, but at the site where the activity had originated, a huge plume of white vapor soared skyward. White vapor continued to rise from the area and from the path of the white and dark brown clouds for more than 15 minutes. Another explosive emission of white steam and dark brown plumes occurred at ~1455 from a spot still farther away from the. Like the 1425 event, it generated ground-hugging clouds of steam and dark brown material, the latter again travelling faster than the earlier. During the following hours, the activity at the SEC gradually decreased, with several spectacular cascades of lava descending through the trench on the SSE side of the cone. Steam explosions and rock avalanches occurred at the lower termination of the trench at 1525. Strombolian activity ceased at 1500, but lava emission continued into the night. This lava does not seem to have extended far from the base of the SEC cone, since investigation during the following day failed to reveal any fresh lava on top of the debris deposits emplaced during the major explosive events at 1425 and 1455. A minor lava flow was also fed from a new short fissure approximately 80 m E of the 3050 m vent. During the evening a small lobe of lava was emitted from the accumulation of lava the base of the SEC cone. Fieldwork and aerial surveys during the following two days revealed that the 1425 and 1455 explosions and related flows had left two main types of deposit. One was of lobate shape and extended a few hundred meters from the source of the explosions to the SE, covering a footpath that had been made by mountain guides to allow tourists to approach the persistently active 2800 m vent. On the ground the deposit consisted of very fine-grained reddish-brown ash made up almost exclusively of lithic fragments. Toward north the deposit gradually thickened and larger clasts were found on its surface, some of which represented fresh magmatic material. Close to the 2800 m vent, the deposit abruptly graded into a sort of debris flow rich in lithics but with up to 25% of fresh magmatic clasts. These latter showed a peculiar flattened-out morphology. Where this deposit overlay the tourist path near the 2800 vent it was 1.5-2 m thick. In one place the flow had entrained a plastic-coated sign warning tourists from leaving the path. The plastic showed no evidence of strong heating, so that it is assumed that the flow was cold in the moment when it arrived at that spot. Volcanic tremor amplitude began to increase during the late afternoon of 18 November, and during a helicopter flight at 1800 the 2800 m vent showed vigorous spattering. Active lava from the vent travelled ~3 km to Monte Centenari. Bright incandescence was also noted within the 3180 m vent during this overflight. At 0400 on 19 November, episode #14 started from the SEC. Strombolian activity occurred from 2 vents at the summit while lava flowed through the 16 November trench and divided into numerous braiding lobes on top of the debris deposit emplaced 3 days earlier. The longest lobe travelled along the prominent channel in the main debris flow, passing immediately to the S of the 2800 m vent and extending to ~2600 m elevation. This episode was much less violent than its predecessor and lacked the explosions, surges and flows characteristic of that event. Strombolian activity continued until the late evening, while lava effusion ended early on 20 November. As during previous episodes, lava had also briefly issued from the 3050 m and 3180 m vents. In addition, a few meters long flow started from another fissure that opened at about 3200 m, on the saddle between Bocca Nuova and SEC. This upper flow merged with the flow coming out from the 3180 m vent. The 15th eruptive episode at the SEC started at 1200 on 21 November. Direct observations were rendered impossible by inclement weather through nightfall, but at ~1500 a black ash plume was seen rising above the cloud cover to approximately 1.5 km above the summit. Light ash falls occurred along the Ionian coast near Giarre and further north, while at Rifugio Citelli (~6 km NE of the SEC), the ash deposit was nearly continuous. After 1900, the cloud cover gradually opened, allowing direct views of the strong Strombolian explosions generating jets sometimes >300 m high. Lava once more flowed through the 16 November trench on the SSE flank of the cone toward the 2800 m vent. Likewise, the 3050 m and 3180 m vents had reactivated, although the latter had apparently ceased erupting early during the episode. Lava flowed from the trench until shortly after midnight on 22 November. Bad weather precluded further observations until the evening of that day, when all activity was again limited to the 2800 vent. *************************** Dr. Sonia Calvari Istituto Nazionale di Geofisica e Vulcanologia Sezione di Catania Piazza Roma 2 95123 Catania (Italy) Tel. +39 095 7165800 direct: +39 095 7165862 Fax: +39 095 435801 url: www.ct.ingv.it *************************** From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Sat Nov 25 20:21:02 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Sat Nov 25 20:22:16 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] FOSAGAMS web page (Federation of Southern African Gem and Mineralogical Societies) Message-ID: <001901c71112$6f19e500$2850d0c4@privatehome> ----- ----- Dear Rockhounds@drizzle Friends, Today is a very proud day for me. I am announcing to all of you the re-launch of the FOSAGAMS web page (Federation of Southern African Gem and Mineralogical Societies), of which I am the President. We have worked very hard over the past six months to give this webpage a new look and feel, and more importantly to present a lot more information. The biggest developments on this webpage are that it has been enhanced with all the S A Lapidary Magazines (the Official Publication of FOSAGAMS and the mouthpiece of the Gem and Mineral Clubs in SA) of the past 3 years PLUS all the latest Newsletters of the Clubs affiliated to FOSAGAMS. Every month you will see new Newsletters being published on the website (as they are released by the Clubs) and every 3-4 months you'll see a new SA Lap Mag being published on the FOSAGAMS website. We believe that this "New" content rich FOSAGAMS webpage will be an exciting page for people to visit if they want to know what's happening within the amateur fraternity in Southern Africa. Another big advantage that FOSAGAMS now has (with this new revamped image) is that it is being sponsored by another Southern African Rockhound web page (built by passionate members of one of the largest Clubs), with free advertising. The SAGAMS (Southern African Gem and Mineral Showcase) portal is aimed at stimulating the total Rock, Gem and Mineral Industry in Southern Africa in terms of presence on the worldwide web, Rockhound Tourism (to SA) and also local and international Shows held in Southern Africa. The SAGAMS portal is already being marketed and, especially in 2007, will be more so with the aim of enticing the international fraternity to consider taking part in the first ever to be held International Gem and Mineral Show on SA ground. I am personally involved with a lot of these new generation initiatives and we are hoping to make Southern Africa, with all it's mineral riches, a preferred Rockhound Tourist destination over the next few years. The Federation is further being financially supported by the SAGAMS Portal's Advertising Campaign, in as much as that all the dealers that have been supporting FOSAGAMS at Shows and otherwise over the years (now subscribed on SAGAMS) still support FOSAGAMS as a portion of the monthly subscription befalls FOSAGAMS, to maintain their website, to start new initiatives to stimulate Rockhunting in SA, etc. Go and have a look at the FOSAGAMS website and e-mail me if you have any suggestions, feedback or criticism. I would love to hear your ideas. Kind Regards Horst Windisch President: FOSAGAMS (Federation of Southern African Gem and Mineralogical Societies) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Sat Nov 25 20:55:19 2006 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Sat Nov 25 20:57:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] FOSAGAMS web page (Federation of Southern African Gemand Mineralogical Societies) References: <001901c71112$6f19e500$2850d0c4@privatehome> Message-ID: <001c01c71117$1ba4e5a0$0300a8c0@Notebook> Horst, You forgot to include the link to FOSAGAMS for those of us who are too lazy to Google it. See: http://www.fosagams.co.za/ John Siebel Santa, ID From Paintricks at aol.com Sat Nov 25 21:17:31 2006 From: Paintricks at aol.com (Paintricks@aol.com) Date: Sat Nov 25 21:17:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gold reports Alma and Mosquito Pass areas of Colorado , ... Anyone? Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I just got back from Mosquito Pass and the Alma area creeks off the Platte river. Didn't have much luck because of time but I learned about the areas some just by being there. I do my best down the Arkansas River when all else fails. I panned a little at Mosquito Pass and Alma at the Platte River to see if there was any color but didn't have any luck. I want to go back and try again a little earlier in the day. This area is some of the most beautiful I have seen in Colorado. I try to be aware of the areas that are not supposed to be entered and there is a lot of private property to avoid. There are some claims around the Platte river and I am a member of the GPAA so I will try the places they have next time. I am familiar with the basics of panning and scouting areas in river beds but I'm not a pro by any means. Anyone ever prospected in these areas? Anyone have any suggestions on ways to locate any color in the gulches in these areas? The color of the rocks near Fairplay turn rusty iron red the closer to Alma you get. Mining is very active here so the land is hard to access. Even the overpasses over the river and creeks are fenced so It's hard to know really where to go. What to look for in the rocks that gives hints to deposits. I've researched most of the web sites that tell of these area but I was hoping on personal experiences that give better information. Thanks in advance, Kevin --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From hammerron at yahoo.com Sun Nov 26 07:20:26 2006 From: hammerron at yahoo.com (The Hammer) Date: Sun Nov 26 07:20:28 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <001b01c70e69$ae905d00$d7dc2c4b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <20061126152026.1982.qmail@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I still have the "Skilcraft Mineral Identification Computer" I think it was made in the 1970's. A Plastic contraption, where you insert peg into holes describing streak, hardness, specific gravity, and streak. There is included in it a streak plate, two "hardness pencils" and a streak plate. The "computer" is loaded with cardboard punch cards with the names of minerals and further descriptions. After you have inserted the pegs, you pull a slot and cards with potential mineral choices drop down into a slot. Kind of cute, no? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 07:36:01 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 26 07:36:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <20061126152026.1982.qmail@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <001b01c70e69$ae905d00$d7dc2c4b@LarryRush> <20061126152026.1982.qmail@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: LOL it's the Hollerith system. BK On 11/26/06, The Hammer wrote: > > I still have the "Skilcraft Mineral Identification Computer" I think it > was made in the 1970's. A Plastic contraption, where you insert peg into > holes describing streak, hardness, specific gravity, and streak. There is > included in it a streak plate, two "hardness pencils" and a streak plate. > > The "computer" is loaded with cardboard punch cards with the names of > minerals and further descriptions. After you have inserted the pegs, you > pull a slot and cards with potential mineral choices drop down into a > slot. Kind of cute, no? > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Sun Nov 26 08:45:29 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Sun Nov 26 11:12:47 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help References: <001b01c70e69$ae905d00$d7dc2c4b@LarryRush><20061126152026.1982.qmail@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c7118e$d69f49a0$b74ed0c4@privatehome> Hi there, Yes, now I remember the name Hollerith. When I started my apprenticeship as a millwright at the local Iron and Steel Works (ISCOR) here in Pretoria (South Africa) in 1951, we used to get paid weekly and I know our wages were paid out by pay clerks using Hollerich machines. Just how time flies.!! Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > LOL it's the Hollerith system. > > BK > > On 11/26/06, The Hammer wrote: >> >> I still have the "Skilcraft Mineral Identification Computer" I think it >> was made in the 1970's. A Plastic contraption, where you insert peg into >> holes describing streak, hardness, specific gravity, and streak. There >> is >> included in it a streak plate, two "hardness pencils" and a streak plate. >> >> The "computer" is loaded with cardboard punch cards with the names of >> minerals and further descriptions. After you have inserted the pegs, you >> pull a slot and cards with potential mineral choices drop down into a >> slot. Kind of cute, no? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > > -- > J Bryan Kramer > photos at: > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 12:28:13 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 26 12:28:16 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <000201c7118e$d69f49a0$b74ed0c4@privatehome> References: <001b01c70e69$ae905d00$d7dc2c4b@LarryRush> <20061126152026.1982.qmail@web81401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000201c7118e$d69f49a0$b74ed0c4@privatehome> Message-ID: The original system was manual and used for the US Census. The census takers would use prepunched cards, one hole might correspond to 'female' and they would use a clipper, like they used to have on trains, to notch that hole out to the edge for females. Then a stack of cards could be searched for all females by sticking a knitting needle like device thru that hole in the stack, a shake or two and all the notched cards would fall out. They could do binary searches that way. It was a major innovation. The card format was adopted by IBM as a data feed mechanism for early computers. Much to the bane of people who had to punch them. Boy I hated those card punch machines. BK On 11/26/06, Horst Windisch wrote: > > Hi there, > > Yes, now I remember the name Hollerith. When I started my apprenticeship > as > a millwright at the local Iron and Steel Works (ISCOR) here in Pretoria > (South Africa) in 1951, we used to get paid weekly and I know our wages > were > paid out by pay clerks using Hollerich machines. Just how time flies.!! > > Horst > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Bryan Kramer" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 5:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > LOL it's the Hollerith system. > > > > BK > > > > On 11/26/06, The Hammer wrote: > >> > >> I still have the "Skilcraft Mineral Identification Computer" I think it > >> was made in the 1970's. A Plastic contraption, where you insert peg > into > >> holes describing streak, hardness, specific gravity, and streak. There > >> is > >> included in it a streak plate, two "hardness pencils" and a streak > plate. > >> > >> The "computer" is loaded with cardboard punch cards with the names of > >> minerals and further descriptions. After you have inserted the pegs, > you > >> pull a slot and cards with potential mineral choices drop down into a > >> slot. Kind of cute, no? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > >> multipart/alternative > >> text/plain (text body -- kept) > >> text/html > >> --- > >> -- > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > >> Subscription Services: > >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > J Bryan Kramer > > photos at: > > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sun Nov 26 15:31:52 2006 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Nov 26 15:31:50 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tonga pumice rafts & new island Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20061126131540.0342f120@mail.hawaiiantel.net> Hi all, The following sites have pictures of a new island and pumice rafts from the Home Reef volcano near Tonga and Fiji. How'd you like to be cruising through a field of pumice on the surface of the ocean? I'd hope to have good filters on the engine-cooling intake! The first site below also has lots of neat other volcano stuff, including a great picture (click to enlarge0 of Augustine Volcano, Alaska, and some striking panorama interactive photos of the current Stromboli eruption at Etna. Aloha, Kitty < http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/> < http://www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/natural_events/new_island061106.shtml > < http://www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/natural_events/tonga_eruption_081106.shtml > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sun Nov 26 15:47:53 2006 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Nov 26 15:47:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Tonga pumice rafts correction In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20061126131540.0342f120@mail.hawaiiantel.net> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20061126131540.0342f120@mail.hawaiiantel.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20061126134400.0343cc18@mail.hawaiiantel.net> My original message got changed in shipment so the URLs had things added at the end. I'll try again: http://volcano.und.nodak.edu http://www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/natural_events/new_island061106.shtml http://www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/natural_events/tonga_eruption_081106.shtml K. At 01:31 PM 11/26/2006, you wrote: >Hi all, > > >The following sites have pictures of a new island and pumice rafts from >the Home Reef volcano near Tonga and Fiji. How'd you like to be >cruising through a field of pumice on the surface of the ocean? I'd >hope to have good filters on the engine-cooling intake! > > >The first site below also has lots of neat other volcano stuff, including >a great picture (click to enlarge0 of Augustine Volcano, Alaska, and some >striking panorama interactive photos of the current Stromboli eruption at >Etna. > > >Aloha, Kitty > > >< >http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/> > > >< >http://www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/natural_events/new_island061106.shtml >> > > >< >http://www.matangitonga.to/article/tonganews/natural_events/tonga_eruption_081106.shtml > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >text/html (html body -- converted) >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Sun Nov 26 15:54:55 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Sun Nov 26 15:55:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01e201c711b6$46590e30$6a01a8c0@okapi> Actually, it's the "EZ-Sort" system. At IEEE's site you can read all about punched cards: http://tinyurl.com/yzsete GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J > Bryan Kramer > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:36 AM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > LOL it's the Hollerith system. > > BK > > On 11/26/06, The Hammer wrote: > > > > I still have the "Skilcraft Mineral Identification .... From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Nov 26 16:04:57 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Nov 26 16:05:02 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <01e201c711b6$46590e30$6a01a8c0@okapi> References: <01e201c711b6$46590e30$6a01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: Actually this is what I was thinking about but Hollerith jumped right by handsorting to electomechanical tabulation in 1889: BK On 11/26/06, Gary Brown wrote: > > Actually, it's the "EZ-Sort" system. At IEEE's site you can read all > about > punched cards: > > http://tinyurl.com/yzsete > > GcB > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J > > Bryan Kramer > > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:36 AM > > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > > > LOL it's the Hollerith system. > > > > BK > > > > On 11/26/06, The Hammer wrote: > > > > > > I still have the "Skilcraft Mineral Identification .... > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Sun Nov 26 17:52:21 2006 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Sun Nov 26 17:52:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mullica Hill phosphate In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20061120100820.037b0510@orerockon.com> References: <20061120175223.637E04D26A@io.frii.com> <7.0.0.16.2.20061120100820.037b0510@orerockon.com> Message-ID: <1D5CDDD7-C13D-4793-8221-8A7C367FBDF2@heidelberg.edu> I have a micromineral specimen of an apparent phosphate from Mullica Hill, I presume New Jersey, which consists of a vug filled with tapered bladed orange crystals forming an open network, with the crystals radiating into the open space in the vug. The crystals are slightly tapered from top to bottom (matrix) along their width, but are parallel-sided along the thinnest direction. The crystals are opaque, and I suspect they may be pseudomorphs. Does anyone have a clue about this mineral? I can send a fairly good jpg image to those who know the Mullica Hill area; please contact me off list at rpr@heidelberg.edu. Thanks, Pete Richards From pjmodreski at att.net Sun Nov 26 21:36:01 2006 From: pjmodreski at att.net (pjmodreski@att.net) Date: Sun Nov 26 21:36:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mullica Hill phosphate Message-ID: <112720060536.13493.456A7941000336B7000034B5216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Peter, I may not be telling you anything you don't already know, but ferrostrunzite, rockbridgeite, and phosphosiderite are reported from Mullica Hill (that I know of), in addition to vivianite. Ferrostrunzite, being brown to yellow, sounds like a possibility for your mineral. I don't really have a personal familiarity with these minerals from Mullica Hill. See, Ferrostrunzite Fe Fe (PO ) (OH) 6H O File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Association: Rockbridgeite, phosphosiderite (Mullica Hill, New Jersey, USA); vivianite,. aluminian strengite, diadochite, leucophosphite, beraunite, ... rruff.geo.arizona.edu/doclib/hom/ferrostrunzite.pdf Pete -------------- Original message from "R. Peter Richards" : -------------- > I have a micromineral specimen of an apparent phosphate from Mullica > Hill, I presume New Jersey, which consists of a vug filled with > tapered bladed orange crystals forming an open network, with the > crystals radiating into the open space in the vug. The crystals are > slightly tapered from top to bottom (matrix) along their width, but > are parallel-sided along the thinnest direction. The crystals are > opaque, and I suspect they may be pseudomorphs. > > Does anyone have a clue about this mineral? I can send a fairly good > jpg image to those who know the Mullica Hill area; please contact me > off list at rpr@heidelberg.edu. > > Thanks, > Pete Richards > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Mon Nov 27 07:28:57 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Nov 27 07:28:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c71238$c210fbf0$6401a8c0@okapi> Ah... Well, while Hollerith made the punch card famous, the EDGE method of sorting actually came around a bit later. I remember my Aunt, who was a registrar at a college in Saint Louis, moaning to my Dad, an engineer uber-geek at Bell Labs, about the high cost of computers (yes, kids, back In The Day computers actually cost a LOT). He said... Well, there is this nifty card-sort system....cost around fifty bucks or so... It served her well for many years. GcB PS Sideline... My Dear Old Dad (RIP) was probably the first person to ever program a FULLY (as contrasted to PARTIALLY) transistorized digital computer. See IEEE at http://tinyurl.com/y3vvkz and Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRADIC. PPS Second Sideline... Remember that old DOS character-only computers were 80 characters wide. Wonder why 80?? The old IBM-Hollerith card was 80 columns wide! > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J > Bryan Kramer > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 6:05 PM > To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help > > Actually this is what I was thinking about but Hollerith > jumped right by handsorting to electomechanical tabulation in 1889: > > > > BK > From JScully216 at aol.com Mon Nov 27 07:39:36 2006 From: JScully216 at aol.com (JScully216@aol.com) Date: Mon Nov 27 07:51:24 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dabsite??? Help with ID Please Message-ID: My daughter came back from Pakistan with some specimens for me. One is described as "Dabsite, Shigar Valley, Alchore Village. I have looked at Mindat.org, the Shigar Valley section, in vain to figure out what the specimen is. The crystals are a lustrous, beautiful translucent green and cubic in shape with slightly planed corners (you can tell I dropped out of crystallography in college). I do not believe they are clinozoisite, zoisite or epidote. The largest XL is maybe 1/8 of an inch across the top and 1/4 inch long. Any help would be appreciated. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Mon Nov 27 08:27:33 2006 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Mon Nov 27 08:27:38 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dabsite??? Help with ID Please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B0BA329-9565-4C69-BA36-12379C200017@heidelberg.edu> Presumably it's diopside. I found the following with a Google search on "diopside Shigar": Dr. Robert Lavinsky's Gallery Alchuri village, Shigar valley, Skardu Road, Haramosh Mts, Gilgit, Northern Areas, Pakistan Check out the green chrome diopside crystal sticking right out . www.mindat.org/gallery.php?cform_ is_valid=1&u=2213&cf_pager_page=830 - 79k - There were several other references to the same occurrence as well. Pete Richards On Nov 27, 2006, at 10:39 AM, JScully216@aol.com wrote: > My daughter came back from Pakistan with some specimens for me. > One is > described as > "Dabsite, Shigar Valley, Alchore Village. I have looked at > Mindat.org, the > Shigar Valley section, in vain to figure out what the specimen > is. The > crystals are a lustrous, beautiful translucent green and cubic in > shape with > slightly planed corners (you can tell I dropped out of > crystallography in > college). I do not believe they are clinozoisite, zoisite or > epidote. The largest > XL is maybe 1/8 of an inch across the top and 1/4 inch long. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ajs at frii.com Mon Nov 27 11:13:47 2006 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Mon Nov 27 11:13:51 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help In-Reply-To: <000001c71238$c210fbf0$6401a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <20061127191347.258664D26F@io.frii.com> > Remember that old DOS character-only computers were 80 characters > wide. Wonder why 80?? The old IBM-Hollerith card was 80 columns > wide! Which in turn was because the Roman charioteers only knew of 80 elements, right? No, wait, they only had 4 elements: earth, air, wind, and fire. Maybe the first punch cards had 4 columns, and they were later expanded to 80 as the number of known elements grew? :-) Alan Silverstein From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Mon Nov 27 18:34:57 2006 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Mon Nov 27 18:35:00 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] SD & NE Message-ID: <233172.47902.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do we have rockhounds in SD or NE? We am planning for next year and would like to collect Fairburn and Prairie Agate. In the last Rock & Gem, there was a publication from the SD Historical Society about collections sites. Is the collection sites from Farmingdale, SD southward into NE? Is one area better than another? Where is a collection site for Prairie Agates? In my old memory, it seems that it was in NW NE. Thanks for all your help. June --------------------------------- Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Nov 27 20:08:13 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 27 19:45:14 2006 Subject: OT: Hollerith Cards {was: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help} References: <20061127191347.258664D26F@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <456BB0C5.5C37@Tomaszewski.net> Alan Silverstein wrote: > > Gary Brown wrote: > > Remember that old DOS character-only computers were 80 characters > > wide. Wonder why 80?? The old IBM-Hollerith card was 80 columns > > wide! > > Which in turn was because the Roman charioteers only knew of 80 > elements, right? No, wait, they only had 4 elements: earth, air, wind, > and fire. Maybe the first punch cards had 4 columns, and they were > later expanded to 80 as the number of known elements grew? > > :-) > > Alan Silverstein Hollerith started out with 20 columns of 10 rows, but later switched to 45 columns with 12 rows. IBM switched to 80 columns in 1929, introducing square holes that were easier to read in machines (Remington Rand, now Unisys, retained round holes). The 80 columns came from the common 36 bit computers of the time, like the 704 from IBM; two 36 bit words per row, and an eight digit sequence number for the card. The original punch card was made the size of the dollar bill of the time (that shrunk in 1920 by 20%) so that existing bins and handling equipment could be reused with cards; IBM retained the size. Kreigh From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Nov 27 20:36:43 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Nov 27 20:13:43 2006 Subject: OT: Hollerith Cards {was: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral Identification Help} References: <20061127191347.258664D26F@io.frii.com> <456BB0C5.5C37@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <456BB771.64BA@Tomaszewski.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > The original punch card was made the size of the dollar bill of the time > (that shrunk in 1920 by 20%) so that existing bins and handling > equipment could be reused with cards; IBM retained the size. Oops, typo, that should have said 1929. From jerrybs at frii.com Mon Nov 27 21:11:09 2006 From: jerrybs at frii.com (jerry) Date: Mon Nov 27 21:15:19 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] SD & NE In-Reply-To: <233172.47902.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <233172.47902.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20061127210822.04fe9eb0@frii.com> Get the book: Fairburn Agate -- Gem of South Dakota by Roger Clark Don't be disappointed you don't find any Fairburn agates. They are very hard to find. Jerry WA At 06:34 PM 11/27/06, you wrote: >Do we have rockhounds in SD or NE? We am planning for next year and >would like to collect Fairburn and Prairie Agate. In the last Rock >& Gem, there was a publication from the SD Historical Society about >collections sites. Is the collection sites from Farmingdale, SD >southward into NE? Is one area better than another? Where is a >collection site for Prairie Agates? In my old memory, it seems that >it was in NW NE. > Thanks for all your help. > June > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/555 - Release Date: 11/27/06 From rocknate at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 04:53:54 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Tue Nov 28 04:53:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rock and Gem Message-ID: I just received the Nov/Dec issue of Rock and Gem and have read the excellent article by Alan Goldstein on Kentucky mineral localities. Alan got me "hooked" on collecting in the Kentucky/Illinois fluorite district about a year ago when he led a trip to the Marion, KY area to collect at several fluorite mines in Crittenton Co. Its nice to see that there are numerous other localities in the state with interesting minerals as well. Maybe next year I'll be able to drive out and make some additional stops along the way. These Rock and Gem articles that specialize in the mineral localities of a specific state are valuable resources for specimen labeling. They also can provide guidance for fieldtrip planning as a starting point for further research into accessibility and current collecting potential. I just want to publicly thank Alan (a frequent list contributor) for adding this Kentucky locality guide to the literature. best regards, Nate Martin Lexington, MA, USA From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Nov 28 05:48:19 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Nov 28 05:48:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rocks AND MINERALS ! Message-ID: Yes, a fine and useful article by Alan, but just to correct, it is Rocks & Minerals magazine, not Rock and Gem, that this (and all the other state mineral locality index) articles were published in. People are always getting the two names mixed up. But thanks for mentioning it to the List! Pete Modreski --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Nov 28 07:02:02 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Nov 28 07:02:19 2006 Subject: OT: Hollerith Cards {was: Re: [Rockhounds] Mineral IdentificationHelp} In-Reply-To: <456BB0C5.5C37@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <00b901c712fe$2bc62eb0$6401a8c0@okapi> Switched to 80 columns in '29 ... That I'll buy. "The 80 columns came from the common 36 bit computers of the time" ???? I don't think the 704 was in current use back then ! Ah... The little square holes, "chaff". Nasty college trick: fill up a garbage can with the chaff from an 029 keypunch (you DO know how to do a drum control card, don't you?) and balance it on the door of someone's room. Nasty. You could follow the tracks in the halls for WEEKS. GcB > > Hollerith started out with 20 columns of 10 rows, but later > switched to > 45 columns with 12 rows. IBM switched to 80 columns in 1929, > introducing square holes that were easier to read in machines > (Remington Rand, now Unisys, retained round holes). > > The 80 columns came from the common 36 bit computers of the > time, like the 704 from IBM; two 36 bit words per row, and an > eight digit sequence number for the card. > > The original punch card was made the size of the dollar bill > of the time (that shrunk in 1920 by 20%) so that existing > bins and handling equipment could be reused with cards; IBM > retained the size. > > Kreigh From rocknate at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 07:22:58 2006 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Tue Nov 28 07:23:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rocks AND MINERALS ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pete, Thanks for the correction! I can't believe I made that mistake; especially when Rocks and Minerals is my favorite magazine. I prefer it even to the Min. Record. Thanks again! Nate Martin On 11/28/06, Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > Yes, a fine and useful article by Alan, but just to correct, it is Rocks & > Minerals magazine, not Rock and Gem, that this (and all the other state > mineral locality index) articles were published in. People are always getting the > two names mixed up. But thanks for mentioning it to the List! > Pete Modreski > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gbrown at xmn.com Tue Nov 28 07:47:02 2006 From: gbrown at xmn.com (gary brown) Date: Tue Nov 28 07:47:13 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence Message-ID: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> A person just asked me an interesting question. I waved my arms...but am still wondering. Since the fluorescence of a mineral is at a lower wavelength than the exciting wavelength, is it possible to illuminate a mineral with UV and have it "glow" in the infrared? GcB --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Nov 28 08:22:54 2006 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Nov 28 08:22:53 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <000b01c71309$75ad6600$6401a8c0@okapi> Oops... Make that "longer" wavelength, not lower. I guess my brain was thinking "lower frequency". Need More Coffee. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of gary brown > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:47 AM > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence > > A person just asked me an interesting question. I waved my > arms...but am still wondering. > > Since the fluorescence of a mineral is at a lower wavelength ..... From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Nov 28 08:30:53 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Nov 28 08:31:43 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> References: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <456C643D.5020809@verizon.net> Yes. This has been observed in a number among other minerals. There is a publication, "Infrared Luminscence of Minerals," (Barnes, David F., Geological Survey Bulletin 1052-C), that discusses this. The opposite is also possible: some minerals, when excited with UV, emit UV at a slightly longer wavelength. This has been observed in minerals like hardystonite, Terlingua-type calcite, and witherite. Don gary brown wrote: > A person just asked me an interesting question. I waved my arms...but am > still wondering. > > Since the fluorescence of a mineral is at a lower wavelength than the > exciting wavelength, is it possible to illuminate a mineral with UV and have > it "glow" in the infrared? > > GcB > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- From SHMM at sussexonline.com Tue Nov 28 08:37:45 2006 From: SHMM at sussexonline.com (Earl Verbeek) Date: Tue Nov 28 08:37:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <000301c7130b$89123bb0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Gary wrote: A person just asked me an interesting question. I waved my arms...but am still wondering. Since the fluorescence of a mineral is at a longer wavelength than the exciting wavelength, is it possible to illuminate a mineral with UV and have it "glow" in the infrared? --------------------------------------- Sure. We've done it, in fact, and it's really not at all rare. For example, perhaps you've seen the red-fluorescent fluorite from Mapimi, Mexico, or Seilles, Belgium, or the what's-its-name mine in Spain (sorry, I need coffee too)? Beautiful under SW, but one of the main emission peaks extends well into the near infrared. Other minerals under UV fluoresce ONLY in the infrared, so you can't see them fluorescing at all, but they're emitting IR light like mad. We've got a little camera here at the museum, compliments of Don Halterman, that shows the effect. The sensor is sensitive to IR light, so we put a UV/VIS filter on it, point the camera to some minerals, wave a UV light at them, and watch the IR fluorescence on a TV monitor. Works like a charm. Cheers- Earl ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@sussexonline.com From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Nov 28 08:50:47 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Nov 28 09:50:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: <456C643D.5020809@verizon.net> Message-ID: Don wrote: > The opposite is also possible: some minerals, when excited with UV, emit > UV at a slightly longer wavelength. This has been observed in minerals > like hardystonite, Terlingua-type calcite, and witherite. Axel, as usual, has been brooding on this for about 5 minutes and came up with this: My Canon PowerShot G1 digital camera has one terrible disadvantage! It "sees" into the LW-UV part of the spectrum. This has to do with the type of CCD and color separation filter and is all very technical and boring but the fact remains that you can actually turn this flaw into an advantage. What you need is an adapter for 58 mm thread photographic filters (almost wrote "philters" ;-). Then you go out and buy a 58 mm UV transparent (not diaphanous! You need photo optic quality) filter. With the filter mounted on the camera, point a STRONG SW-UV source at your collection and scan it with your camera. Needless to say that you can't use the range finder... you have to look at the TFT-screen... ;-))) Most specimens will be invisible for the camera because of the filter but some may appear bright magenta while others are just barely visible. I just checked my specimens "on display" and these came out: Scheelite from Pingwu, China is bright as a lighthouse. Somewhat weaker: Elbaite (pink) from Afghanistan Magnesite from Frankenstein Poland, Brucite from N' Chwaning N? 2 mine, near Kuruman, RSA Fluorite, La Barre,Clermont Ferrant, France. (Some fluorite specimens fluoresce a more magenta tint than the usual blue. I suspect that the ones that do emit UV.) Witherite ,Lostit, Faroffistan, Old Peoples Republic of Dementia. My camera's CCD is not sensitive enough to record weaker stuff than that under my superbright at short distance but I'll move my triplebright SW for this little experiment. If you want to try this you 'll have to be aware of two things: 1) some minerals reflect UV very effectively. Any SW-lamp emits a weak spectral peak of LW. Don't let yourself be fooled by reflection. 2) any UV-transparent filter on the market will block out visible wavelengths of 395 nm app. and above. That means that strong blue fluorescence may pass the filter and show up on your camera's screen. I have a large cleavage rhomb TT-calcite from Mexico and several smaller from different locations... none of them show up on my screen. Maybe they use up all the energy of the emitted UV for another level of activation??? Certainly this is something that deserves more brooding Cheers Axel Axel Emmermann European Regional VP of the Fluorescent Mineral Society http://www.uvminerals.org/ My website:http://users.pandora.be/axel.emmerman/home/ From murowchickj at umkc.edu Tue Nov 28 10:04:54 2006 From: murowchickj at umkc.edu (Jim Murowchick) Date: Tue Nov 28 10:05:04 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Going in the other direction, some digital cameras are sensitive to IR wavelengths. Though I have not obtained any images myself, I did find that my Nikon CoolPix 950 and 5400 are both IR sensitive. A preliminary check can be done by pointing a TV remote at the camera (in a dark room, of course), an seeing if the IR bulb lights up (on the camera LCD) when a controller button is pressed. One of our students took some IR photos of rock drawings at an archeological site in Baja California using an IR-transparent but visibly opaque filter on a digital SLR on a tripod. The stone surface was illuminated by midday sun. The results were only marginal, but the potential for useful photos is there. Exposure times need to be determined somehow. Jim Murowchick On 11/28/06 10:50 AM, "Axel Emmermann" wrote: > Axel, as usual, has been brooding on this for about 5 minutes and came up > with this: > > My Canon PowerShot G1 digital camera has one terrible disadvantage! It > "sees" into the LW-UV part of the spectrum. From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Tue Nov 28 10:18:12 2006 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Nov 28 10:18:16 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence (did you catch this?) In-Reply-To: References: <456C643D.5020809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20061128080848.03850a60@mail.hawaiiantel.net> OK, List: How many of you caught the following buried in Axel's message? Thanks, Axel. Got a good laugh to keep the doctor away! Aloha, Kitty At 06:50 AM 11/28/2006, Axel wrote: >Witherite, Lostit, Faroffistan, Old Peoples Republic of Dementia. From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 10:28:30 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Nov 28 10:28:33 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The situation with digital cameras is that the manufacturers have added an ir blocking filter on top of the sensor. It's a thin sheet of glass. If they allow IR to hit the sensor you get all sorts of strange and undesirable photos because items reflect IR in odd ways. The new Leica M8 is getting h*ll from it's users since they put an especially weak IR filter on that very expensive camera. The reasons for the thin (0.5 mm thick) filter have to do with the strange optics inside that camera. They apparently decided to make the digital look exactly like the old film versions and good engineering be dashed. That has led to blacks coming out as magenta and other problems. Now Wayne Cosshall publisher of DIMI ( and Aussie photo magazine) has been making an effort to test all the common digitals for their IR capabilities. If you are interested take a look at this article and if you look around the site you'll find tests on many cameras: Wayne is very helpful and if you have any questions, he'll be sure to answer. BK On 11/28/06, Jim Murowchick wrote: > > Going in the other direction, some digital cameras are sensitive to IR > wavelengths. Though I have not obtained any images myself, I did find > that > my Nikon CoolPix 950 and 5400 are both IR sensitive. A preliminary check > can be done by pointing a TV remote at the camera (in a dark room, of > course), an seeing if the IR bulb lights up (on the camera LCD) when a > controller button is pressed. > One of our students took some IR photos of rock drawings at an > archeological site in Baja California using an IR-transparent but visibly > opaque filter on a digital SLR on a tripod. The stone surface was > illuminated by midday sun. The results were only marginal, but the > potential for useful photos is there. Exposure times need to be > determined > somehow. > > Jim Murowchick > > > On 11/28/06 10:50 AM, "Axel Emmermann" wrote: > > > Axel, as usual, has been brooding on this for about 5 minutes and came > up > > with this: > > > > My Canon PowerShot G1 digital camera has one terrible disadvantage! It > > "sees" into the LW-UV part of the spectrum. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From murowchickj at umkc.edu Tue Nov 28 10:41:29 2006 From: murowchickj at umkc.edu (Jim Murowchick) Date: Tue Nov 28 10:41:35 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bryan- The article is just what I needed--he even had example shots using a CoolPix 950. Now I wonder if I can use my CoolPix on my microscope to get IR images of fluid inclusions in visibly opaque sulfide mineral in thin section (e.g., tetrahedrite, molybdenite, others) with transmitted light. Jim On 11/28/06 12:28 PM, "J Bryan Kramer" wrote: > Now Wayne Cosshall publisher of DIMI ( and Aussie photo magazine) has been > making an effort to test all the common digitals for their IR capabilities. > If you are interested take a look at this article and if you look around the > site you'll find tests on many cameras: > > > > Wayne is very helpful and if you have any questions, he'll be sure to > answer. > > BK From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Nov 28 10:59:09 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Nov 28 10:59:14 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You'll just need an IR filter, a Hoya 72 is the most common, I use a Cokin 007 which is equivalent. And expect long exposure times, probably in the 10 sec plus range. The Hoya does let some visible light pass, there are other less common filters which block all visible. If you were really interested in this you can even have the IR blocking filter removed. A lot of astrophotographers do that or buy the Canon 350D which Canon sells w/o a blocking filter. BK On 11/28/06, Jim Murowchick wrote: > > Thanks, Bryan- > The article is just what I needed--he even had example shots using a > CoolPix 950. Now I wonder if I can use my CoolPix on my microscope to get > IR images of fluid inclusions in visibly opaque sulfide mineral in thin > section (e.g., tetrahedrite, molybdenite, others) with transmitted light. > Jim > > > On 11/28/06 12:28 PM, "J Bryan Kramer" wrote: > > > > Now Wayne Cosshall publisher of DIMI ( and Aussie photo magazine) has > been > > making an effort to test all the common digitals for their IR > capabilities. > > If you are interested take a look at this article and if you look around > the > > site you'll find tests on many cameras: > > > > > > > > Wayne is very helpful and if you have any questions, he'll be sure to > > answer. > > > > BK > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Nov 28 10:31:11 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Nov 28 11:31:05 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence (did you catch this?) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20061128080848.03850a60@mail.hawaiiantel.net> Message-ID: Hi Kitty, the witherite really fluoresces in LW-UV under SW but I misplaced the label. As far as my memory is concerned, witherite is an interesting mineral... Here's what the Concise Oxford Dictionary has to say on "to wither": wither . v. 2 become shrunken or wrinkled from age or disease. O fall into decay or decline. Very ominous indeed ;-))) How are things after the Big Island quake? Things getting back into shape? Hola la bas Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]Namens Kitty & Bill Heacox > Verzonden: dinsdag 28 november 2006 19:18 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence (did you catch this?) > > > OK, List: > > How many of you caught the following buried in Axel's message? > > Thanks, Axel. Got a good laugh to keep the doctor away! > > Aloha, Kitty > > > At 06:50 AM 11/28/2006, Axel wrote: > > >Witherite, Lostit, Faroffistan, Old Peoples Republic of Dementia. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From DOMMELEN at DAL.CA Tue Nov 28 12:27:58 2006 From: DOMMELEN at DAL.CA (Ronnie Van Dommelen) Date: Tue Nov 28 12:28:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence In-Reply-To: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> References: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <20061128162758.jbwf0iyou674kgkg@my3.dal.ca> Gary, Keep in mind that heat is also infrared (though longer wavelengths still than what you were probably thinking about). When an object is illuminated with UV and/or visible it warms up, emitting in these long IR bands. This would really be an example of phosphorescence. Getting back closer to what you were asking about, you could also fluoresce a mineral in the IR using visible pump light. The visible still has more energy than the IR (i.e. shorter wavelength and high frequency). Visible fluoresence from visible pumping is also possible (there are many organic examples, I think chlorophyll fluoresces red when pumped with blue/green). With a variety of good quality filters you could probably find lots of unusual combinations in a large collection. Happy Collecting, Ronnie Van Dommelen Quoting gary brown : > A person just asked me an interesting question. I waved my arms...but am > still wondering. > > Since the fluorescence of a mineral is at a lower wavelength than the > exciting wavelength, is it possible to illuminate a mineral with UV and have > it "glow" in the infrared? > > GcB > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Tue Nov 28 13:13:37 2006 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Nov 28 13:13:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] earthquake (was) IR Fluorescence (did you catch this?) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.0.20061128080848.03850a60@mail.hawaiiantel.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20061128102305.0385dc20@mail.hawaiiantel.net> We had just finished putting things back on shelves and gluing together things that broke in the October 15th earthquake when we got another one on November 23 (Thanksgiving). The first registered 6.7, with a 6.0 aftershock seven minutes later. The one on Thanksgiving was 5.0. They were all in roughly the same location; most scientists are calling the Thanksgiving one an aftershock, while others say it may indicate something else is going on. Our house (and most of our rocks) survived all quite well, though every room had lots of stuff on the floor and there are some places we still haven't finished cleaning up (like my art studio: paint and clay and craft materials in a jumble everywhere. I've cleared a path so I can walk into the room, but that's all). Some of the ancient walls and heiaus (temples) all over the island were damaged, but most of the Hawaiian elders believe they should not be repaired or rebuilt, but want to leave them as part of the natural effects of the aina (land). Worse off are some farmers whose water supply has been cut off by destruction of parts of the Hamakua Ditch, a system of irrigation flumes built around 1900. This has also put a relatively new tourist endeavor out of business: a company that took adventurous visitors down the Hamakua Ditch in kayaks and rubber boats. There's a picture on the following website that shows damage to a 150-year-old church: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287863/site/newsweek/ Our house is built on a slope, so the up-hill side is tied into a stem wall and concrete slab, while the downhill side is on power-pole-sized posts bolted to large concrete pads. I think that's why so much went flying during the quake, while some neighbors who were either completely on slab or completely on posts did a little better. One neighbor had a large flat-screen TV that fell forward off a table onto its screen; he and his wife lifted it back up onto the table, turned it on, and it worked just fine. Another neighbor had a fish tank that splashed half of its water all over the living room, but the tank remained in tact and the fish were OK. Another neighbor had four cats and two dogs; the dogs cowered under the house for a about an hour and the cats disappeared into the forest for two full days. Aloha, Kitty At 08:31 AM 11/28/2006, you wrote: >Hi Kitty, > >How are things after the Big Island quake? >Things getting back into shape? > >Hola la bas > >Axel From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Nov 28 16:20:48 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Nov 28 16:18:12 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] IR Fluorescence References: <00d301c71304$72df9240$6401a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <456CD1BE.379@Tomaszewski.net> Yes. http://www.viewsfromscience.com /documents/webpages/led_fluorescensce_p2.html gary brown wrote: > > A person just asked me an interesting question. I waved my arms...but am > still wondering. > > Since the fluorescence of a mineral is at a lower wavelength than the > exciting wavelength, is it possible to illuminate a mineral with UV and have > it "glow" in the infrared? > > GcB From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Nov 29 03:24:59 2006 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Nov 29 03:25:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] (was) earthquake - melting of the poles In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20061128102305.0385dc20@mail.hawaiiantel.net> Message-ID: Hi Kitty, it's a shame that all that work is so... well, repetitive (or the event reoccurring). My back is a lot better so picking up things is no longer my worst nightmare but still... I can find no recreational merit in it ;-))) I wonder, we've had our share of geological cataclysms in the past 30 years (Mt St Helens, Pintuba, 2005 Tsunami, Iranian quake in Bam...) Actually, it feels like more than a normal share. Somebody ought to check ;-))) I wonder (again) what the effect is of global warming on this. It's smack on topic because ice is a mineral and in Greenland alone 180.000.000.000 tons (give or take an ounce) of that mineral are being removed every year for at least the past 2 decades. Same on the South Pole. Al that weight being redistributed over the oceans has to have SOME flexing effect on the earth's crust and therefore on the tectonic activity. Has to, hasn't it? The separation of England from the mainland is reportedly the result of the melting of an ice sheet over Scotland of only a few hundred feet thick. See what it did... and that's peanuts compared to what's going on right now. Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com]Namens Kitty & Bill Heacox > Verzonden: dinsdag 28 november 2006 22:14 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] earthquake (was) IR Fluorescence (did > youcatch this?) > > > We had just finished putting things back on shelves and gluing together > things that broke in the October 15th earthquake when we got another one > on November 23 (Thanksgiving). The first registered 6.7, with a 6.0 > aftershock seven minutes later. The one on Thanksgiving was 5.0. They > were all in roughly the same location; most scientists are calling the > Thanksgiving one an aftershock, while others say it may indicate > something > else is going on. > > Our house (and most of our rocks) survived all quite well, though every > room had lots of stuff on the floor and there are some places we still > haven't finished cleaning up (like my art studio: paint and clay > and craft > materials in a jumble everywhere. I've cleared a path so I can walk into > the room, but that's all). > > Some of the ancient walls and heiaus (temples) all over the island were > damaged, but most of the Hawaiian elders believe they should not be > repaired or rebuilt, but want to leave them as part of the > natural effects > of the aina (land). Worse off are some farmers whose water > supply has been > cut off by destruction of parts of the Hamakua Ditch, a system of > irrigation flumes built around 1900. This has also put a relatively new > tourist endeavor out of business: a company that took > adventurous visitors > down the Hamakua Ditch in kayaks and rubber boats. > > There's a picture on the following website that shows damage to a > 150-year-old church: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15287863/site/newsweek/ > > Our house is built on a slope, so the up-hill side is tied into a > stem wall > and concrete slab, while the downhill side is on power-pole-sized posts > bolted to large concrete pads. I think that's why so much went flying > during the quake, while some neighbors who were either completely on slab > or completely on posts did a little better. One neighbor had a large > flat-screen TV that fell forward off a table onto its screen; he and his > wife lifted it back up onto the table, turned it on, and it worked just > fine. Another neighbor had a fish tank that splashed half of its > water all > over the living room, but the tank remained in tact and the fish were > OK. Another neighbor had four cats and two dogs; the dogs cowered under > the house for a about an hour and the cats disappeared into the > forest for > two full days. > > Aloha, Kitty > > > At 08:31 AM 11/28/2006, you wrote: > >Hi Kitty, > > > >How are things after the Big Island quake? > >Things getting back into shape? > > > >Hola la bas > > > >Axel > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Pmodreski at aol.com Wed Nov 29 06:17:49 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Nov 29 06:17:59 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: geologic names quiz Message-ID: Rockhounds list, I just wanted to post a prelim note about the response to my question posted to the list about a week ago, "What do you think is the best known geologic formation name, in the U.S. and in the rest of the world?" Since I asked replies to be sent directly to me and not to the List, not wanting each person's responses to influence the others, you'll not have seen any feedback on this yet, but the response has been good, and quite interesting. About 25 people from the Rockhounds list have responded. I then sent the same question to a local (Colorado) group of geologists, collectors, and science teachers, and also posted it to the MSA (Mineralogical Soc. of America) listserver, and I've gotten about 50 additional replies back from each of those groups. I'll be sending a full report on what I've received to all the groups. A few more replies are still trickling in, so if anyone who hasn't done so wants to send me a reply, please do so. A number of people (from all the groups) responded with the name of a prominent geological "feature"--for example, the Rock of Gibraltar, or a generic kind of rock, rather than a geologic (stratigraphic) formation name as I'd intended, but that is OK, it shows what each person thinks is best known, which is what I was looking for, and I've simply been tabulating all the different responses. I've learned quite a few interesting geo-facts from doing this, both from seeing people's responses, and from looking them up further in reference sources (usually on the internet) to verify their location and spelling. I'll be writing back about this. Best wishes to all, Pete Modreski, _pmodreski@aol.com_ (mailto:pmodreski@aol.com) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 07:17:43 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Nov 29 07:17:46 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mullica Hill phosphate In-Reply-To: <112720060536.13493.456A7941000336B7000034B5216038311607059C0A9D0B0103069F@att.net> Message-ID: <20061129151743.70719.qmail@web34301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How about cacoxenite? I believe that's also known from Mullica Hill (which is Gloucester County, NJ). Jim Daly pjmodreski@att.net wrote: Peter, I may not be telling you anything you don't already know, but ferrostrunzite, rockbridgeite, and phosphosiderite are reported from Mullica Hill (that I know of), in addition to vivianite. Ferrostrunzite, being brown to yellow, sounds like a possibility for your mineral. I don't really have a personal familiarity with these minerals from Mullica Hill. See, Ferrostrunzite Fe Fe (PO ) (OH) 6H O File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Association: Rockbridgeite, phosphosiderite (Mullica Hill, New Jersey, USA); vivianite,. aluminian strengite, diadochite, leucophosphite, beraunite, ... rruff.geo.arizona.edu/doclib/hom/ferrostrunzite.pdf Pete -------------- Original message from "R. Peter Richards" : -------------- > I have a micromineral specimen of an apparent phosphate from Mullica > Hill, I presume New Jersey, which consists of a vug filled with > tapered bladed orange crystals forming an open network, with the > crystals radiating into the open space in the vug. The crystals are > slightly tapered from top to bottom (matrix) along their width, but > are parallel-sided along the thinnest direction. The crystals are > opaque, and I suspect they may be pseudomorphs. > > Does anyone have a clue about this mineral? I can send a fairly good > jpg image to those who know the Mullica Hill area; please contact me > off list at rpr@heidelberg.edu. > > Thanks, > Pete Richards > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From roughrock at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 12:35:50 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Wed Nov 29 12:36:08 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet Message-ID: The poison that killed a Russian spy, polonium-210, is for sale on the Internet, along with a lot of other radioactive substances. "United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies of Sandia Park, N.M., will sell you a small amount of polonium-210 for $69 in a small, yellow, disk-shaped container. The firm offers a long list of available radioactive sources on its commercial Web site -- which includes buttons marked, "Add to Cart" next to items for purchase. " http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/28/POLONIUM.TMP What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? Grant From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Nov 29 12:48:12 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Nov 29 12:48:56 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456DF20C.7060501@verizon.net> Their products are intended to be used for demonstration and educational purposes. I've bought a few of their items myself. However, after reading the article, it seems the vendor might be a little bit... odd. Don Grant Johnston wrote: > The poison that killed a Russian spy, polonium-210, is for sale on the > Internet, along with a lot of other radioactive substances. > > "United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies of Sandia Park, N.M., > will sell you a small amount of polonium-210 for $69 in a small, > yellow, disk-shaped container. The firm offers a long list of > available radioactive sources on its commercial Web site -- which > includes buttons marked, "Add to Cart" next to items for purchase. " > > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/28/POLONIUM.TMP > > What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? > > Grant From albalmer at att.net Wed Nov 29 12:50:24 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Nov 29 12:50:27 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:35:50 -0800, "Grant Johnston" wrote: >The poison that killed a Russian spy, polonium-210, is for sale on the >Internet, along with a lot of other radioactive substances. > >"United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies of Sandia Park, N.M., >will sell you a small amount of polonium-210 for $69 in a small, >yellow, disk-shaped container. The firm offers a long list of >available radioactive sources on its commercial Web site -- which >includes buttons marked, "Add to Cart" next to items for purchase. " > >http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/28/POLONIUM.TMP > >What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? > >Grant A little research might be in order before the scaremongering. To make a fatal dose, you would have to order 15,000 of those $69 samples. Then you would have to somehow extract the invisible amount of isotope from the inside of the eye of the needle where it's plated and combine all 15,000 samples. If you're looking for a far more potent source of toxic radioactive material, go to Wal-mart and buy a smoke detector. (Incidentally, there are many legitimate uses for researchers, hobbyists, and educators for small, controlled sources of Alpha particles.) -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Nov 29 12:52:10 2006 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Nov 29 12:52:10 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Radioactive minerals / polonium 210 for sale on internet References: Message-ID: <005801c713f8$3e5dcba0$cffdf604@TheBlackAdder> After I built a Geiger counter a few years ago which will easily detect common radioactive mineral specimens such as Curienite and Autunite one foot from the G-M tube, I wanted a test source, so it was easy to purchase a one micro Curie source of Cesium 137 sealed in a 1" dia. plastic disc for $94. from an online dealer. No license is required for 1 uCi. That's one of the uses for these sources, to check your counter and to demonstrate the shielding effect of various materials. I wouldn't read any sinister intent into the availability of these things since the amount is miniscule and sealed inside a plastic disc, the contents cannot be removed without destroying the contents. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Johnston" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:35 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet The poison that killed a Russian spy, polonium-210, is for sale on the Internet, along with a lot of other radioactive substances. "United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies of Sandia Park, N.M., will sell you a small amount of polonium-210 for $69 in a small, yellow, disk-shaped container. The firm offers a long list of available radioactive sources on its commercial Web site -- which includes buttons marked, "Add to Cart" next to items for purchase. " http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/28/POLONIUM.TMP What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? Grant -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jr50wv at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 13:15:27 2006 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Wed Nov 29 13:15:30 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Current discussions Message-ID: <350302.63107.qm@web56311.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone: What a great discussion, with links to all kinds of technical and scientific sites. This is more like what I hope the Rockhounds Discussion list would be like. (If there's typos in this post, I aplolgize in advance, there's kittens on the keyboard!) I'm interested in the UV-IR discussion, and very much hope that one of my digital cameras will to for IR photography. (Coolpix 4500 and D70s) If anyone has tried it with either of these, please let me know, off list if you think that's more appropriate. The earthquakes off Hawaii are also fascinating. There's so much we don't know about the hot spot that created the long chain of volcanoes that (currently) are the Hawaiian islands. The other hot spot I've visited, Yellowstone, is quite different from the volcanoes of Hawaii, but walking on the board walks through one of the geyser fields, and feeling the heat from the ground underfoot, is quite an experience. It only takes a tiny bit of imagination to visualize the nearly liquid hot magma underfoot, that passes heat to groundwater (or even water contained in the magma?) producing the spurting, gurgling, steaming or boiling events all around you. In many places the ground is too hot to put your hand on. And in Hawaii, you can walk freely beside vents of the great volcanoes, and feel steam, hot air, and see gemmy sulphur crustals deposited on rocks around the vents. You can even walk along the coast and see liquid rock pour into the Pacific. The thought that something as interesting and bizarre as that might be starting up to cause this set of 'quakes is very stimulating. Maybe study of these new events will help us learn what causes the Mid Pacific hot spot! Kitty, I'm glad your house appears to be weathering these shakes and movements OK. It looked over-engineered to me, just as my own house is, which is a very good thing when unexpected stresses come into play! Nate, I'm with you on Alan's great article in Rocks and Minerals! The amount of scholarship and on-the-ground experience it takes to create an article like that can only be appreciated when you've visited some of the locales, in my case, multiple times, and still learn that you've only scratched the surface. Thanks, Alan, for all the hard work accumulating all the knowledge and putting it into a format where it can be so easily used by the many people who collect in the wonderfully geological state of Kentucky! Many times when we've been stopped at prolific places to search for fossils or minerals, other folks have either been there ahead of us or have showed up while we've been scouring a roadcut or creek bed. I guess I'm not really contributing any new information here, but just cheerleading a little, but you guys who do contribute the knowledge deserve a major pat on the back for hanging in there! Thanks everyone! JR in WV --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 15:17:13 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Nov 29 15:17:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Radioactive minerals / polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: <005801c713f8$3e5dcba0$cffdf604@TheBlackAdder> References: <005801c713f8$3e5dcba0$cffdf604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: Po-210 is commonly used in Staticmaster antistatic brushes and has been for years. A very small amount of Po-210, I'm sure. The Staticmaster brushes are often used by photographers and in labs. Indeed we buy them, rip the radioactive strip off and put the strip inside our microbalance enclosure to dissipate static charges inside the weighing chamber. BK On 11/29/06, Erich Kern wrote: > > > > > After I built a Geiger counter a few years ago which will easily detect > common radioactive > mineral specimens such as Curienite and Autunite one foot from the G-M > tube, I wanted a test > source, so it was easy to purchase a one micro Curie source of Cesium 137 > sealed in a 1" dia. > plastic disc for $94. from an online dealer. No license is required for 1 > uCi. > > That's one of the uses for these sources, to check your counter and to > demonstrate the shielding > effect of various materials. I wouldn't read any sinister intent into the > availability of these > things since the amount is miniscule and sealed inside a plastic disc, the > contents cannot be > removed without destroying the contents. > > Erich > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Grant Johnston" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:35 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet > > > The poison that killed a Russian spy, polonium-210, is for sale on the > Internet, along with a lot of other radioactive substances. > > "United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies of Sandia Park, N.M., > will sell you a small amount of polonium-210 for $69 in a small, > yellow, disk-shaped container. The firm offers a long list of > available radioactive sources on its commercial Web site -- which > includes buttons marked, "Add to Cart" next to items for purchase. " > > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/28/POLONIUM.TMP > > What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? > > Grant > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca Wed Nov 29 15:22:08 2006 From: kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca (Kay Davis) Date: Wed Nov 29 15:22:15 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Radioactive minerals / polonium 210 for sale oninternet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c7140d$3123d230$c745450a@KayDesk> Bryan said >> Indeed we buy them, rip the radioactive strip off and put the strip inside our microbalance enclosure to dissipate static charges inside the weighing chamber. << But, But, What about all those heavy alpha particles throwing your measurements off..... Kay From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 15:33:49 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Nov 29 15:33:55 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Radioactive minerals / polonium 210 for sale oninternet In-Reply-To: <001401c7140d$3123d230$c745450a@KayDesk> References: <001401c7140d$3123d230$c745450a@KayDesk> Message-ID: LOL, so that's why the pan jumps around. BK On 11/29/06, Kay Davis wrote: > > > Bryan said >> Indeed we buy them, rip the radioactive strip off and put > the > strip inside our microbalance enclosure to dissipate static charges inside > the weighing chamber. << > > But, But, What about all those heavy alpha particles throwing your > measurements off..... > > > > Kay > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tim at orerockon.com Wed Nov 29 15:47:26 2006 From: tim at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Nov 29 15:47:25 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20061129154327.037b61b8@orerockon.com> I used it as an alpha particle source in a science fair experiment in high school. I found the article amusing in that sense. The reporter probably could have called his high school physics teacher and gotten a sample for himself, since that's where mine came from. Imagine, I could have poisoned a house fly with that needle. Darn, missed opportunity! "Damn it Jim, I'm a reporter, not a researcher!" At 12:50 PM 11/29/2006, you wrote: >A little research might be in order before the scaremongering. > >To make a fatal dose, you would have to order 15,000 of those $69 >samples. Then you would have to somehow extract the invisible amount >of isotope from the inside of the eye of the needle where it's plated >and combine all 15,000 samples. > >If you're looking for a far more potent source of toxic radioactive >material, go to Wal-mart and buy a smoke detector. > >(Incidentally, there are many legitimate uses for researchers, >hobbyists, and educators for small, controlled sources of Alpha >particles.) > >-- >Al Balmer >Sun City, AZ > >-- Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 17:02:54 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Nov 29 17:02:57 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well the very disturbing report is that the Russians have lost 10 kg of Po-210. That is a stupendous amount of isotope. BK --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Nov 29 17:19:02 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Nov 29 17:19:07 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Geologist--be sure to check this one out! Message-ID: <007e01c7141d$85aa8320$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Here is a funny geology web site! -- Alan http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Geologist --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Nov 29 17:59:35 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Nov 29 17:59:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rocks and Minerals References: Message-ID: <00b201c71423$2f63f7c0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> The article was a long time in development. I worked on it for several years and gave it to a well-known midwest mineral collector to review. He sat on it for about 3 years. It took a couple more years after that. As articles go, it is not much for easy reading. It is useful if you want to collect or learn about what has been found. I've got some other projects in the works, for instance a two parter on exploring the fluorspar district for Rock and Gem (not Rocks & Minerals). Another mineralogical topic I've had on the back burner longer than the Kentucky index. The localities have never been published (in any great detail) in the popular literature is on a timeline several years down the road for the Mineralogical Record. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Martin" To: "Rockhounds Email List" Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:53 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rock and Gem >I just received the Nov/Dec issue of Rock and Gem and have read the > excellent article by Alan Goldstein on Kentucky mineral localities. > Alan got me "hooked" on collecting in the Kentucky/Illinois fluorite > district about a year ago when he led a trip to the Marion, KY area to > collect at several fluorite mines in Crittenton Co. Its nice to see > that there are numerous other localities in the state with interesting > minerals as well. Maybe next year I'll be able to drive out and make > some additional stops along the way. > > These Rock and Gem articles that specialize in the mineral localities > of a specific state are valuable resources for specimen labeling. > They also can provide guidance for fieldtrip planning as a starting > point for further research into accessibility and current collecting > potential. > > I just want to publicly thank Alan (a frequent list contributor) for > adding this Kentucky locality guide to the literature. > > best regards, > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA, USA > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Nov 29 18:35:39 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Nov 29 18:29:29 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet References: Message-ID: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> Grant Johnston wrote: > > What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? > > Grant > -- Polonium is used in the "flints" of lighters (the 'Bic' in your pocket is radioactive) because it makes it easier to light the flame. From roughrock at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 19:04:41 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Wed Nov 29 19:04:44 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> References: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: On 11/29/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? > > > > Grant > > -- > > Polonium is used in the "flints" of lighters (the 'Bic' in your pocket > is radioactive) because it makes it easier to light the flame. > > Thanks Kreigh, Now I'm twice as happy I quit smokng. Just think of all those men out there walking around with a radoactive Bic in the pocket of their Levi's. Grant From roughrock at gmail.com Wed Nov 29 19:23:36 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Wed Nov 29 19:23:39 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Radioactive minerals / polonium 210 for sale oninternet In-Reply-To: References: <001401c7140d$3123d230$c745450a@KayDesk> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who answered. I make my living buying and selling things (mostly real-estate and stocks now) so I've I get curious when I see things being sold and can't understand why a person would buy them. I don't think I've ever learned anything that was a waste of time. Now I know how to kill a spy. First I buy $690,000 worth of polonium 210 then I rip the radioactive strips offf and...... :-) Grant On 11/29/06, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > LOL, so that's why the pan jumps around. > > BK > > On 11/29/06, Kay Davis wrote: > > > > > > Bryan said >> Indeed we buy them, rip the radioactive strip off and put > > the > > strip inside our microbalance enclosure to dissipate static charges inside > > the weighing chamber. << > > > > But, But, What about all those heavy alpha particles throwing your > > measurements off..... > > > > > > > > Kay > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > -- > J Bryan Kramer > photos at: > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From kadok at infowest.com Wed Nov 29 19:31:06 2006 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Wed Nov 29 19:31:06 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c7142f$f88606a0$0200a8c0@kadok> Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet The poison that killed a Russian spy, polonium-210, is for sale on the Internet, along with a lot of other radioactive substances. "United Nuclear Scientific Equipment & Supplies of Sandia Park, N.M., will sell you a small amount of polonium-210 for $69 in a small, yellow, disk-shaped container. The firm offers a long list of available radioactive sources on its commercial Web site -- which includes buttons marked, "Add to Cart" next to items for purchase. " http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/28/POLONIUM.TMP What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? Grant Well, would you call a medical researcher or a research chemist a "normal person"? Margaret -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Nov 29 20:28:42 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Nov 29 20:22:13 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet} References: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <456E5C6F.59E8@Tomaszewski.net> Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? Marie Curie named this silver grey metal/element after her home country of Poland when she discovered it in 1898. I think it was the first radioactive element to be discovered. Most of us probably have at least one radioactive specimen in our collection; the specimen(s) probably contains some Polonium. What precautions should we be taking when we collect radioactive specimens? I assume we all wash our hands well after handling any specimens that contain potentially toxic components we don't want to later ingest. Mounting such specimens in plastic boxes, that also protects against alpha radiation, makes sense (but is not always practical due to specimen size). What about Radon production from your specimens? Is it worth worrying about? What precautions do you take for your radioactive specimens? Kreigh Grant Johnston wrote: > > On 11/29/06, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > > > What would a normal person do with things like that, besides killing spys? > > > > > > Grant > > > -- > > > > Polonium is used in the "flints" of lighters (the 'Bic' in your pocket > > is radioactive) because it makes it easier to light the flame. > > > > > Thanks Kreigh, > > Now I'm twice as happy I quit smokng. Just think of all those men out > there walking around with a radoactive Bic in the pocket of their > Levi's. > > Grant > -- From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Nov 29 21:19:56 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Nov 29 21:21:05 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet} In-Reply-To: <456E5C6F.59E8@Tomaszewski.net> References: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> <456E5C6F.59E8@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <456E69FC.2050907@verizon.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the > element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. > > BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? Polonium is a short-lived isotope. It is technically a native element, but an unstable one, so only specialists care about it. The most interesting use to a mineralogist/petrologist/geochemist is for radiometric dating of very recent lava flows ( <1 year). Now that I think about it, that's interesting about the polonium being sold. It has a rapid decay rate, and if someone wants to use it for research or teaching purposes, they'd need to be quick about it. Don From webmaster at rockhoundstation1.com Wed Nov 29 21:56:33 2006 From: webmaster at rockhoundstation1.com (Sal) Date: Wed Nov 29 21:55:52 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE:1. RE: (was) earthquake - melting of the poles (Axel Emmermann) Message-ID: <456E7291.5010603@rockhoundstation1.com> Hi Axel, Actually, the redistribution of the ice has an effect on Chandler's Wobble - that is the earth wobbles on it's axis and the weight distribution effects that. Now the end of last December and first part of January Chandler's Wobble stopped dead. It has never been known to do that before, but may have long eons ago. There was much speculation about how that would effect weather - I have been tracking weather events - particularly earthquakes because they have a pretty good record of them going back to 1990. Now - if they were increasing before then, we think maybe, but there is nothing to go by other than a guess as there was no real worldwide tracking ability that there is now - but since that time there are certain average numbers. Right now we have been tracking for 3/4 of a year and March, April, and May were high - June, July, August a bit lower - and now we are high again ending a third quarter - high enough to put us over the average for a year span - have one quarter to go before we can tell for sure if we are truly up or not. The tracking is posted in my forums -- the third quarter summery will be in my Gazette around the first two weeks of December if you are interested in what the consensus is. I am researching the shift of the poles which were supposed to be effected by the cease of the wobble as well -- The dangerous thing about this wobble is that if it gets going to hard it can flip the earth and then all heck will break loose - it is a second theory for a few of the mass extinctions through time. Sal -- Sally Taylor webmaster@rockhoundstation1.com http://www.rockhoundstation1.com From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Wed Nov 29 23:03:44 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Wed Nov 29 23:05:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] FOSAGAMS website Message-ID: <000701c7144d$e54dffc0$9f4cd0c4@privatehome> Hi everybody, When I sent out the first announcement of the launch of the FOSAGAMS (Federation of Southern African Gem and Mineralogical Societies) website, I forgot to mention its URL Here it is http://www.fosagams.co.za Regards, Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 05:39:12 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Nov 30 05:39:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE:1. RE: (was) earthquake - melting of the poles (Axel Emmermann) In-Reply-To: <456E7291.5010603@rockhoundstation1.com> References: <456E7291.5010603@rockhoundstation1.com> Message-ID: LOL On 11/30/06, Sal wrote: > > Hi Axel, > > Actually, the redistribution of the ice has an effect on Chandler's > Wobble - that is the earth wobbles on it's axis and the weight > distribution effects that. Now the end of last December and first > part of January Chandler's Wobble stopped dead. It has never > been known to do that before, but may have long eons ago. There > was much speculation about how that would effect weather - I have > been tracking weather events - particularly earthquakes because they > have a pretty good record of them going back to 1990. Now - if they > were increasing before then, we think maybe, but there is nothing to > go by other than a guess as there was no real worldwide tracking ability > that there is now - but since that time there are certain average numbers. > Right now we have been tracking for 3/4 of a year and March, April, > and May were high - June, July, August a bit lower - and now we are high > again ending a third quarter - high enough to put us over the average for > a year span - have one quarter to go before we can tell for sure if we are > truly up or not. The tracking is posted in my forums -- the third > quarter > summery will be in my Gazette around the first two weeks of December > if you are interested in what the consensus is. > > I am researching the shift of the poles which were supposed to be effected > by the cease of the wobble as well -- > > The dangerous thing about this wobble is that if it gets going to hard > it can > flip the earth and then all heck will break loose - it is a second > theory for a > few of the mass extinctions through time. > > Sal > > -- > Sally Taylor > webmaster@rockhoundstation1.com > http://www.rockhoundstation1.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From albalmer at att.net Thu Nov 30 06:59:08 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Thu Nov 30 06:59:11 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rocks and Minerals In-Reply-To: <00b201c71423$2f63f7c0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <00b201c71423$2f63f7c0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:59:35 -0500, "Alan Goldstein" wrote: >The article was a long time in development. I worked on it for several years >and gave it to a well-known midwest mineral collector to review. He sat on >it for about 3 years. It took a couple more years after that. As articles >go, it is not much for easy reading. It is useful if you want to collect or >learn about what has been found. Interesting, but surprising. I would never have guessed how long it took. For collectors, aren't the localities likely to have changed considerably in the meantime? -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From albalmer at att.net Thu Nov 30 07:01:57 2006 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Thu Nov 30 07:02:00 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet} In-Reply-To: <456E69FC.2050907@verizon.net> References: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> <456E5C6F.59E8@Tomaszewski.net> <456E69FC.2050907@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:19:56 -0800, DonH wrote: >Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >> Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the >> element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. >> >> BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? > > >Polonium is a short-lived isotope. It is technically a native element, >but an unstable one, so only specialists care about it. The most >interesting use to a mineralogist/petrologist/geochemist is for >radiometric dating of very recent lava flows ( <1 year). > >Now that I think about it, that's interesting about the polonium being >sold. It has a rapid decay rate, and if someone wants to use it for >research or teaching purposes, they'd need to be quick about it. > The seller says it isn't stocked, but made to order in a reactor shortly before shipment. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 07:10:38 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Nov 30 07:10:41 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet} In-Reply-To: References: <456E41FF.2B19@Tomaszewski.net> <456E5C6F.59E8@Tomaszewski.net> <456E69FC.2050907@verizon.net> Message-ID: It has a 133 day halflife so it should usable for several halflifes, say a year or so. BK On 11/30/06, Al Balmer wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:19:56 -0800, DonH > wrote: > > >Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > >> Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the > >> element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. > >> > >> BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? > > > > > >Polonium is a short-lived isotope. It is technically a native element, > >but an unstable one, so only specialists care about it. The most > >interesting use to a mineralogist/petrologist/geochemist is for > >radiometric dating of very recent lava flows ( <1 year). > > > >Now that I think about it, that's interesting about the polonium being > >sold. It has a rapid decay rate, and if someone wants to use it for > >research or teaching purposes, they'd need to be quick about it. > > > The seller says it isn't stocked, but made to order in a reactor > shortly before shipment. > > -- > Al Balmer > Sun City, AZ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 07:19:08 2006 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Nov 30 07:19:11 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet} In-Reply-To: <456E69FC.2050907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <206274.47609.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is (or was) a commercial use for polonium, despite it's short half-life. It was in static dissipation bars on calenders producing plastic film and sheet. Jim Daly DonH wrote: Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the > element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. > > BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? Polonium is a short-lived isotope. It is technically a native element, but an unstable one, so only specialists care about it. The most interesting use to a mineralogist/petrologist/geochemist is for radiometric dating of very recent lava flows ( <1 year). Now that I think about it, that's interesting about the polonium being sold. It has a rapid decay rate, and if someone wants to use it for research or teaching purposes, they'd need to be quick about it. Don -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Thu Nov 30 10:51:13 2006 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Thu Nov 30 11:11:57 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for saleon internet} References: <206274.47609.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c714b3$62876390$e452d0c4@privatehome> NowBritish Airways are checking their planes that have flown the London-Moscow route for polonium, as it has been suggested that a Russian spy (who recently died in London) may have been poisoned by it. Any connection? Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Daly" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for saleon internet} > There is (or was) a commercial use for polonium, despite it's short > half-life. It was in static dissipation bars on calenders producing > plastic film and sheet. > Jim Daly > > DonH wrote: > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > >> Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the >> element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. >> >> BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? > > > Polonium is a short-lived isotope. It is technically a native element, > but an unstable one, so only specialists care about it. The most > interesting use to a mineralogist/petrologist/geochemist is for > radiometric dating of very recent lava flows ( <1 year). > > Now that I think about it, that's interesting about the polonium being > sold. It has a rapid decay rate, and if someone wants to use it for > research or teaching purposes, they'd need to be quick about it. > > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > --------------------------------- > Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and > get things done faster. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 11:32:03 2006 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Nov 30 11:32:07 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for saleon internet} In-Reply-To: <000201c714b3$62876390$e452d0c4@privatehome> References: <206274.47609.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000201c714b3$62876390$e452d0c4@privatehome> Message-ID: Well the reports I've seen is that BA is only checking certain planes that one or more suspects flew on, in from Moscow to London and then a few days later back to Moscow. BK On 11/30/06, Horst Windisch wrote: > > NowBritish Airways are checking their planes that have flown the > London-Moscow route for polonium, as it has been suggested that a Russian > spy (who recently died in London) may have been poisoned by it. Any > connection? > > Horst > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Daly" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:19 PM > Subject: Re: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for > saleon internet} > > > > There is (or was) a commercial use for polonium, despite it's short > > half-life. It was in static dissipation bars on calenders producing > > plastic film and sheet. > > Jim Daly > > > > DonH wrote: > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > >> Polonium does not occur in the chemical formula of any mineral, but the > >> element occurs in trace amounts in all uranium ores. > >> > >> BTW, does that make Polonium a native element? > > > > > > Polonium is a short-lived isotope. It is technically a native element, > > but an unstable one, so only specialists care about it. The most > > interesting use to a mineralogist/petrologist/geochemist is for > > radiometric dating of very recent lava flows ( <1 year). > > > > Now that I think about it, that's interesting about the polonium being > > sold. It has a rapid decay rate, and if someone wants to use it for > > research or teaching purposes, they'd need to be quick about it. > > > > Don > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email > and > > get things done faster. > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Nov 30 16:42:15 2006 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Nov 30 16:42:17 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rocks andMinerals References: <00b201c71423$2f63f7c0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <009901c714e1$8c368990$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I'm sure some authors can get the articles done faster than I. Juggling a full-time job with writing slows down the process. It's a matter of prioritizing tasks -- for me writing is a winter project. Mineral News articles have a quick turn-around, but they are short stories / narratives. The Halls Gap article in 1997 MR had the fastest turn-around of any article I've written. I documented known localities -- NOT accessible localities! You will find many localities in the central KY fluorpar district are inaccessible -- many have developments over them (subdivisions, industrial parks, etc.) I've already learned of several new accessible localities since the manuscript was finalized. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Balmer" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Kentucky Mineral Locality Article in Rocks andMinerals > On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 20:59:35 -0500, "Alan Goldstein" > wrote: > >>The article was a long time in development. I worked on it for several >>years >>and gave it to a well-known midwest mineral collector to review. He sat on >>it for about 3 years. It took a couple more years after that. As articles >>go, it is not much for easy reading. It is useful if you want to collect >>or >>learn about what has been found. > > Interesting, but surprising. I would never have guessed how long it > took. For collectors, aren't the localities likely to have changed > considerably in the meantime? > > -- > Al Balmer > Sun City, AZ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Thu Nov 30 15:17:07 2006 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Thu Nov 30 16:48:23 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rochester Symposium Message-ID: <000201c714e2$d5301110$c878a118@feldsparflash> To the list: Does anyone know the dates for the Rochester Symposium? Carolyn R. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From bg at his.com Thu Nov 30 17:14:14 2006 From: bg at his.com (Catherine Gaber) Date: Thu Nov 30 17:14:18 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rochester Symposium In-Reply-To: <000201c714e2$d5301110$c878a118@feldsparflash> References: <000201c714e2$d5301110$c878a118@feldsparflash> Message-ID: April 12-15 2007 On Nov 30, 2006, at 6:17 PM, Carolyn Reynard wrote: > To the list: Does anyone know the dates for the Rochester Symposium? > Carolyn R. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From dawnmfredricks at msn.com Thu Nov 30 18:10:35 2006 From: dawnmfredricks at msn.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Thu Nov 30 18:10:41 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New breed of earthquakes? Message-ID: Interesting article on earthquakes! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15971642/from/ET/ From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Nov 30 18:32:33 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Nov 30 18:32:40 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] dino egg nest news story Message-ID: Rockhounds. I'm sure others will see this AP story about coming auction of a "whole dinosaur nest", but here it is: _http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061130&cat=science&st=scienced 8lnob780&src=ap_ (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=061130&cat=science&st=scienced8lnob780&src=ap) Pete --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Nov 30 20:14:08 2006 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Nov 30 20:13:37 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] New breed of earthquakes? References: Message-ID: <456FABEA.35CC@Tomaszewski.net> Thanks Dawn! That was interesting. Kreigh Dawn M. Fredricks wrote: > > Interesting article on earthquakes! > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15971642/from/ET/ > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From roughrock at gmail.com Thu Nov 30 20:21:20 2006 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Thu Nov 30 20:21:23 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on internet In-Reply-To: <000f01c7142f$f88606a0$0200a8c0@kadok> References: <000f01c7142f$f88606a0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: On 11/29/06, Margaret Malm wrote: > > > > Well, would you call a medical researcher or a research chemist a "normal > person"? > > Margaret I guess I would make a value judgement like that olnly after I got to know them. Grant From RRanker at provide.net Thu Nov 30 20:44:48 2006 From: RRanker at provide.net (Russ Ranker) Date: Thu Nov 30 20:44:54 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] 18 inch diamond blade Message-ID: <456FB340.30000@provide.net> I am shopping for a new 18 inch diamond blade for my saw. does anyone have experience with blades from UKAM industrial in Valencia Ca? (UKAM.com). I cut a lot of agate so I dont tink that an inexpensive blade sounds like a good idea, but I dont want to spend a ton of money if I dont have to. Any advice? Russ From spocksrocks at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 21:00:30 2006 From: spocksrocks at hotmail.com (Scotts Rock & Gem) Date: Thu Nov 30 21:00:32 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for a rhodocrosite heart Message-ID: Hello rockhounds: A frined of mine wants a small rhodocrosite heart for Christmas. Does anyone have one for sale? She would like it to be about 1 inch wide and preferable drilled to be worn as a pendant, but non-drilled would be OK. You can contact me off-list at spocksrocks@hotmail.com Warm Regards - Scott Blair --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Nov 30 21:01:27 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Nov 30 21:01:40 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on inter... Message-ID: Regarding polonium, I would have assumed (as has been commented here) that the quantities contained in those commercially sold anti-static brushes, etc., are miniscule compared to what would constitute a toxic dose. Surprisingly, not so! In talking to a radiation safety person, he commented that one of those antistatic brushes (he showed me some) actually contains several times the lethal dose. That seems incredible, but it is evidently true; I looked this up on Wikipedia, and found these figures: Some anti-static brushes contain up to 500 microcuries of 210Po. A fatal 4 Sv dose can be caused by ingesting 8 MBq (200 micro_curie_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curie) ), about 50 nanogram. So, that's 2.5 times the lethal dose contained in one such brush. Of course, the material in the brush is bonded or encapsulated in plastic or other material, not readily separable or ingestible; but still, well, a bit scary. BTW, I don't think it's quite correct to claim polonium as a native metal. As a natural daughter product, it can be called a naturally occurring radioactive element, but "native metal" implies that it is present in pure metallic form, whereas whatever polonium is present in the decay products of uranium, is mixed in low concentration with many other elements; and besides, such atoms of Po as are present it are probably not present as the metallic form, but as some type of oxide, since Po (like U, Pu, and similar elements) is very easily oxidized. Pete --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Nov 30 21:32:47 2006 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Nov 30 21:33:03 2006 Subject: [Rockhounds] looking for unusual mineral beads Message-ID: Perhaps someone on the List can suggest a source of help for this... A geologist friend of mine was asking me where she might find polished gemstone beads, made of some of the more unusual minerals that are more commonly seen as rock-forming minerals than as gemstones. For example, she was looking for beads made of some of the varieties of feldspar, specifically such as anorthite, andesine, oligoclase, and albite. I know where to find such things as mineral specimens, but not as beads. I've tried to look online and in a bead catalog, with no luck. Anyone have any ideas of a supplier I could direct her to? (She's looking for just a few of each, not wholesale quantities.) Thanks, Pete --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Nov 30 23:31:39 2006 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Nov 30 23:33:13 2006 Subject: Radioactives Safety {was: Re: [Rockhounds] polonium 210 for sale on inter... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456FDA5B.6020706@verizon.net> > BTW, I don't think it's quite correct to claim polonium as a native metal. > As a natural daughter product, it can be called a naturally occurring > radioactive element... Huh? I think we were just talking about it being a "native element," as in, an element on the periodic table, which it is. I don't think it fits in the Dana list or IMA list of native elements, in the sense it is not a mineral-forming species, but that is splitting hairs (and I honestly don't have time to check right now). It is a short-lived and transient element, but then again there are some anthropogenic elements with half-lives less than a second, and they are also on the periodic table--though one wonders why time and money are spent creating such esoteric substances, but that is another matter. best, Don