From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Dec 1 01:54:31 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Dec 1 02:54:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Accommodations In-Reply-To: <200711302317.lAUNHLVX003348@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <000901c832f1$bb7eb6d0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A><002901c83396$979451d0$0200a8c0@kadok> <200711302317.lAUNHLVX003348@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000601c83400$2b9a8390$6401a8c0@AxelHP> > They can be of very short duration in the Deschutes canyon in > Oregon; I have seen them last about 3 minutes or so, knock a > few tents over then they are gone :) Hi Tim, Maybe a coincidence but in French "Des chutes (d'air)" means falling winds. "Des chutes" also can mean "rapids" (like for rafting). Now, was the canyon named after the wind, the rapids or just someone who happened to be named Deschutes? I tried to Google it but it seems that there is a Deschutes canyon in Oregon and one in Utah. Cheers Axel From nospam at orerockon.com Sat Dec 1 05:48:35 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sat Dec 1 05:54:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Accommodations In-Reply-To: <000601c83400$2b9a8390$6401a8c0@AxelHP> References: <000901c832f1$bb7eb6d0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <002901c83396$979451d0$0200a8c0@kadok> <200711302317.lAUNHLVX003348@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <000601c83400$2b9a8390$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <200712011349.lB1DnH4W013287@bubbleator.drizzle.com> It's the Oregon one (there is one in Washington state too) and it was named for the rapids, over 100 miles of Class III+ :) I watched a driftboat do Sherar's Falls once (unintentionally) a native American fishing site for a few thousand years. Yes, he made it :) Interesting about the wind though! >Narrow canyons, rapids and numerous waterfalls abound along the >Deschutes, which the early French explorers called "le Riviere des >Chutes," meaning "the River of Falls." The Deschutes arises on the >eastern slopes of the Cascades in the south central part of the >state, and flows northward 250 miles to its confluence with the >Columbia. The Deschutes is unusual for its very consistent flow >rate throughout the year. This is caused by the massive porous lava >beds south and west of Bend, where the main stream and its major >tributaries originate. These sponge-like formations trap the >springtime snow melt, then release it at a steady rate throughout the year. At 01:54 AM 12/1/2007, you wrote: > > They can be of very short duration in the Deschutes canyon in > > Oregon; I have seen them last about 3 minutes or so, knock a > > few tents over then they are gone :) > >Hi Tim, > >Maybe a coincidence but in French "Des chutes (d'air)" means falling winds. >"Des chutes" also can mean "rapids" (like for rafting). >Now, was the canyon named after the wind, the rapids or just someone who >happened to be named Deschutes? >I tried to Google it but it seems that there is a Deschutes canyon in Oregon >and one in Utah. > >Cheers >Axel Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Dec 1 07:23:33 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Dec 1 08:23:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Accommodations In-Reply-To: <200712011349.lB1DnH4W013287@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <000901c832f1$bb7eb6d0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A><002901c83396$979451d0$0200a8c0@kadok><200711302317.lAUNHLVX003348@bubbleator.drizzle.com><000601c83400$2b9a8390$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <200712011349.lB1DnH4W013287@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002801c8342e$23cbadf0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> > >Deschutes, which the early French explorers called "le Riviere des > >Chutes," meaning "the River of Falls." The Deschutes arises on the Oh, it was already there. Guess I missed that... Too much postings lately ;-))) Axel From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sun Dec 2 04:18:43 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Dec 2 05:18:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] View Glenn Wimpee's photos on Windows Live Spaces In-Reply-To: <80492D84A56A4926B562BEE3EAE90204@phx.gbl> References: <80492D84A56A4926B562BEE3EAE90204@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <001901c834dd$7b370800$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Just looking at them makes my powers drain away.... It's kryptonite all right! AAAARGH... Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Windows Live > Verzonden: zaterdag 1 december 2007 1:03 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] View Glenn Wimpee's photos on Windows > Live Spaces > > Glenn Wimpee wants to share photos with you. > > View the photos > > > Rocks (7) > Check out the photo album I posted on Windows Live. Since the > green glass "Kryptonite" marbles have led to such a stir, you > might want to see some pics in several light variations. > > I took these today, 11-30-2007 just before 6PM CST. > > Glenn > > > Microsoft respects your privacy. To learn more, please read > our privacy statement . > Microsoft Corporation, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052 > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > image/jpeg > image/gif > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 2 17:43:48 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 2 17:40:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Using Helium to Locate Geothermal Energy Resources Message-ID: <47535E89.347D@Tomaszewski.net> http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-11/asu-hip113007.php The article talks about using the He3/He4 isotope ratio to identify surface water that has contact with water from the mantle to identify geothermal resouces without having to drill. They also identified a correlation of isotope ratios with deformation of the underlying rock. It struck me that areas where you have fluids flowing in mantle rock under deformation tend to leave interesting minerals behind. So grab your portable mass spec next time you are heading into the field to look for a likely area to collect in. ;-} Kreigh From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 2 18:23:55 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:20:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: <475367EB.7F38@Tomaszewski.net> I live about three blocks from the Ballard Street that named this comic strip. In case your newspaper doesn't carry the strip, I wanted to share a recent one that featured rockhounding http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 but watch out for the url wrap. It was in color in my local paper, but the online version is b/w; it is still funny. Enjoy! Kreigh From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Dec 2 18:35:00 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:35:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... What the heck are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, Pete **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lavenderfish at cox.net Sun Dec 2 18:39:43 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:40:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic References: Message-ID: <063b01c83555$c2955d00$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Oh thank goodness I'm not the only one who didn't get it either! ??Scratching my head?? Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic > > In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, > Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 > > > hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing > something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... > What the heck > are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... > > oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, > > Pete > > > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's > hottest > products. > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From kcbaran at arczip.com Sun Dec 2 18:34:03 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:40:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47536B1B.5040107@arczip.com> Oh, I get it(I think): The guy has his rock hammer in his right hand, rocks in his left hand, and pieces of rock on the floor; he was chipping the rocks(hitting, beating) and his wife has no clue as to what rock hounds do, what their relationship is between hammer and rock. I agree, though, I don't find a bunch of humor here. Chuck Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, >Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > >http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 > > >hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing >something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... What the heck >are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... > >oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, > >Pete > > > >**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest >products. >(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > From bilmcc1948 at msn.com Sun Dec 2 18:46:57 2007 From: bilmcc1948 at msn.com (Bill McCullough) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:47:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: <47536B1B.5040107@arczip.com> References: <47536B1B.5040107@arczip.com> Message-ID: Nah! Look at the tracks behind the rocks. He is releasing them back into the wild! -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Charles Baran Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:34 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Oh, I get it(I think): The guy has his rock hammer in his right hand, rocks in his left hand, and pieces of rock on the floor; he was chipping the rocks(hitting, beating) and his wife has no clue as to what rock hounds do, what their relationship is between hammer and rock. I agree, though, I don't find a bunch of humor here. Chuck Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, >Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > >http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal2007112 7 > > >hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing >something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... What the heck >are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... > >oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, > >Pete > > > >**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest >products. >(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lavenderfish at cox.net Sun Dec 2 18:49:04 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:49:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic References: <47536B1B.5040107@arczip.com> Message-ID: <064601c83557$115b4480$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Looking at it some more....Think maybe he was tossing them out about the yard just so he'd have rocks to go out and collect? ?? When ya gotta have a fix.....! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Baran" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic > Oh, I get it(I think): The guy has his rock hammer in his right hand, > rocks in his left hand, and pieces of rock on the floor; he was chipping > the rocks(hitting, beating) and his wife has no clue as to what rock > hounds do, what their relationship is between hammer and rock. I agree, > though, I don't find a bunch of humor here. > > Chuck > Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: >> >>http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 >> >> >>hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing >>something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... >>What the heck are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... >> oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, >> Pete >> >> >> >>**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's >>hottest products. >>(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) >> >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >> > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From kcbaran at arczip.com Sun Dec 2 18:45:59 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:52:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: References: <47536B1B.5040107@arczip.com> Message-ID: <47536DE7.9080108@arczip.com> No, cant be! What source or propulsion do the rocks have? Chuck Bill McCullough wrote: >Nah! Look at the tracks behind the rocks. He is releasing them back into the >wild! > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >[mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Charles Baran >Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:34 PM >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic > >Oh, I get it(I think): The guy has his rock hammer in his right hand, >rocks in his left hand, and pieces of rock on the floor; he was >chipping the rocks(hitting, beating) and his wife has no clue as to what >rock hounds do, what their relationship is between hammer and rock. I >agree, though, I don't find a bunch of humor here. > >Chuck > >Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > > >>In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, >>Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: >> >>http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal2007112 >> >> >7 > > >>hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing >>something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... >> >> >What the heck > > >>are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... >> >>oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, >> >>Pete >> >> >> >>**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's >> >> >hottest > > >>products. >>(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) >> >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Dec 2 18:52:45 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:53:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: OK, thanks Chuck, now we're getting closer to comprehending this. I didn't notice the rock hammer (still not sure I see it, actually). Yes, maybe the humor is more obvious to someone who DOESN'T automatically assume everything second nature about "rockhounding"... ... or else, even though it's only Dec. 2, Kreigh has already been inside too long, and is developing an unusually early case of cabin fever, so that anything remotely to do with rocks is already looking good and amusing! Cheer up, Kreigh, the snow will be gone in just... 5 or 6 months for you. : ) Pete **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Dec 2 18:59:36 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Dec 2 18:59:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:53:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, kcbaran@arczip.com writes: No, cant be! What source or propulsion do the rocks have? well, there's this place in Death Valley, you know... **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kcbaran at arczip.com Sun Dec 2 19:05:20 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Sun Dec 2 19:11:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47537270.8000405@arczip.com> Yea, but here people are actually watching! Maybe has something to do with the anti-gravity/radiation/kryptonite syndrome? Chuck Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:53:07 PM Mountain Standard Time, >kcbaran@arczip.com writes: > >No, cant be! What source or propulsion do the rocks have? > > > > > >well, there's this place in Death Valley, you know... > > > >**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest >products. >(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 2 19:17:08 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 2 19:13:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic References: Message-ID: <4753745B.6495@Tomaszewski.net> He has been throwing his rock collection into the yard (digging up the turf) and smashing them on the walkway. At least that is how it appeared in the color version in my local paper. Kreigh Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, > Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 > > hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing > something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... What the heck > are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... > > oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, > > Pete > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest > products. > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Dec 2 19:27:08 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Dec 2 19:27:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:14:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: He has been throwing his rock collection into the yard (digging up the turf) and smashing them on the walkway. At least that is how it appeared in the color version in my local paper. Kreigh It did look like the rocks were moving, but I wasn't sure if they were being rolled away, or moving under their own power. Maybe he is indeed "setting them free". Kreigh, you obviously have a much more refined sense of humor than we peasants! cheers, Pete **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 2 19:49:08 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 2 19:45:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic References: Message-ID: <47537BD6.14B8@Tomaszewski.net> Pete, I continue to treat my withdrawal by identifying and cataloging what I collected last summer, but it is just not the same; my sense of humor is warped by many accounts. I always plant my vege garden from seed on Good Friday, so the snow shouldn't be quite that long (but it has finally set in). Kreigh P.S., BTW, my oldest daughter lives just outside of Denver proper. I may be out to see you this coming September. -KT Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > OK, thanks Chuck, now we're getting closer to comprehending this. I didn't > notice the rock hammer (still not sure I see it, actually). Yes, maybe the > humor is more obvious to someone who DOESN'T automatically assume everything > second nature about "rockhounding"... > > ... or else, even though it's only Dec. 2, Kreigh has already been inside > too long, and is developing an unusually early case of cabin fever, so that > anything remotely to do with rocks is already looking good and amusing! Cheer > up, Kreigh, the snow will be gone in just... 5 or 6 months for you. > > : ) > > Pete From jabac at hal-pc.org Sun Dec 2 21:02:42 2007 From: jabac at hal-pc.org (jabac) Date: Sun Dec 2 20:02:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47538DF2.4070802@hal-pc.org> Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:14:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, > Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > > He has been throwing his rock collection into the yard (digging up the > turf) and smashing them on the walkway. At least that is how it appeared > in the color version in my local paper. > > Kreigh > > It did look like the rocks were moving, but I wasn't sure if they were being > rolled away, or moving under their own power. Maybe he is indeed "setting > them free". > > Kreigh, you obviously have a much more refined sense of humor than we > peasants! > > cheers, Pete > Shades of Fibber McGee and Molly! He's trying to figure out what to do with all the extras that fell out of his closet. Is Ballard St. anywhere near Wistle Vista? john From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Dec 2 20:10:52 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Dec 2 20:10:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: It would be great to see you if you're out here then, Kreigh--please keep in touch. (The Denver Show, by the way, will be Sept. 12-14 2008.) Pete **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 20:33:24 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sun Dec 2 20:33:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic References: Message-ID: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> In trying to figure out what was funny about this cartoon, I kept thinking he was putting them off the porch with a golf putter, but couldn't see any. Oh Well, must be the regional sense of humor at work. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: Pmodreski@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:14:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: He has been throwing his rock collection into the yard (digging up the turf) and smashing them on the walkway. At least that is how it appeared in the color version in my local paper. Kreigh It did look like the rocks were moving, but I wasn't sure if they were being rolled away, or moving under their own power. Maybe he is indeed "setting them free". Kreigh, you obviously have a much more refined sense of humor than we peasants! cheers, Pete **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lavenderfish at cox.net Sun Dec 2 21:13:32 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Sun Dec 2 21:13:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> FYI...Best Places to Find Cash & Treasures is back on the tube again. Haven't watched it yet, but today's episode was about looking for copper at Calcedonia copper mine of Lake Superior. Glad it's back on! Carol From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sun Dec 2 22:50:09 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Dec 2 22:50:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <473E5FB0001994E6@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) It sort of helps to go back and forward on the comic pages to try get a grip on the type of humor. It's weird. Aloha, Kitty At 06:33 PM 12/2/2007, you wrote: >In trying to figure out what was funny about this cartoon, I kept >thinking he was putting them off the porch with a golf putter, but >couldn't see any. > >Oh Well, must be the regional sense of humor at work. > >Erich Kern From nospam at orerockon.com Mon Dec 3 00:12:27 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Dec 3 00:11:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> <069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> A future episode is on collecting petrified wood and part was shot at Alex McDonald's ranch in Ashwood, OR. Alex has pulled some magnificent trunks from his Metasequoia "petrified forest" and I hope they got some footage of a nice big honker. They wanted me to take them to the Owyhees to dig picture jasper this month but there are so many problems with that area that I declined. One being the roads are gumbo and will stay that way until we get a nice long dry spell. A miner I know in that area actually declined to be on the show because he doesn't want any publicity for his mine (go figure). I am trying to get them to go to the Regency Rose, Richardson's Ranch, or Valley View mine next spring, all of which I think would be excellent subjects, but they "already did agate and thundereggs". Go figure. I don't think the viewers care of they do agate or thundereggs once, twice, or ten times, they need to get the word out about the excellent rockhounding "treasures" available in the Pacific NW that aren't called sunstones lol. At 09:13 PM 12/2/2007, you wrote: >FYI...Best Places to Find Cash & Treasures is back on the tube >again. Haven't watched it yet, but today's episode was about looking >for copper at Calcedonia copper mine of Lake Superior. > >Glad it's back on! Carol Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Dec 3 01:01:29 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Dec 3 02:09:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP> here's my one plausible explanation: the wife cleaned up and put all of Larry's precious rocks in a cigar box. Now he doesn't know what is what and in frustration throws them away... Don't laugh, these things happen. We once did a night trip to Plombi?res, a famous Belgian locality, where fluorescent calcite, willemite, gypsum and hydrozincite were found. We did it with home-made lamps in those days. It was Christmas in October. Everywhere you pointed your UV lamps there was red and green en yellow and blue... We collected as much as we could carry from the old zinc & lead mine. Now, spectacular as they may look in UV, the collected rocks were dirty and ugly beyond belief. Some years later the locality was closed and covered with a parking lot. So we cheered as our little stockpile of rocks actually became worth something. One of my friends immediately went to his garage to check his "box of goodies" which he couldn't find... He turned his garage AND cellar upside down and inside out, still no rocks. Finally he asked his wife if she knew were they were. "Oh, those ugly dirty rocks? I threw those away some time ago. There was nothing fancy about those and I thought you set them aside as garbage." she said. My friend still mourns the loss of his treasures... The term justifiable homicide comes to mind, doesn't it? > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Pmodreski@aol.com > Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 3:35 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic > > > In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard > Time, Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc > /crbal20071127 > > > hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing > something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the > humor... What the heck > are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... > > oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, > > Pete > > > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of > 2007's hottest products. > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000 30000000001) > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From nospam at orerockon.com Mon Dec 3 07:46:44 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Dec 3 07:44:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: OreRockOn on DVD Version 4.2 List Sale & Version 4.1 Clearance In-Reply-To: <200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> <069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <200712031544.lB3Fisgt017437@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Just for the lists, cuz I love you guys so much (sniff!), I am having a Christmas Shoppers' special on my OreRockOn Rockhounding Locations DVD Version 4.2 (finished today lol). It's the ultimate stocking stuffer for the discriminating rockhound! Click on the CD link below to read all about it. V 4.2 has 638 (15 new since V 4.0) detailed 1:24,000 scale shaded relief 1:24,000 USGS topographic maps of Pacific Northwest (OR, WA, ID, and a wee bit o' Cali) rock, fossil, and mineral collecting areas, 2,118 waypoints (98 new), 36 site writeups (1 new; many expanded, all new fossil preparation page), and 217 1:100,000 scale USGS or WA DNR Land Ownership maps for each collecting area (5 new). All maps now have mileposts on all major highways. There is a new waypoint file for your GPS, and I even threw in a Google Earth file so you can view satellite photos of each dig site or fly from dig to dig in 3D until you are dizzy (LOL!) The discounted list special price is $15 off ($30.00 with first class or $35.00 with Priority Mail shipping). In order to qualify for this discount you must use PayPal and specify that you want the "List Christmas Shoppers' discount" in your comments when you check out. Then I will refund $15.00 as soon as I get the notice from PayPal. Thanks everyone for a great year and I hope you have a great Christmas and New Years! Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com CD of OR, WA, & ID rockhounding sites: http://OreRockOn.com/CD Lapidary Materials: http://OreRockOn.com/lapidary Knapping Materials: http://OreRockOn.com/knappers Fossils & Other Stuff: http://OreRockOn.com/for_sale Rockhound's Bookstore: http://OreRockOn.com/rock_bookstore From nospam at orerockon.com Mon Dec 3 08:00:32 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Dec 3 07:58:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: AD: OreRockOn on DVD Version 4.2 List Sale In-Reply-To: <200712031545.lB3FiwiP012323@obsidian.aracnet.com> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> <069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <200712031545.lB3FiwiP012323@obsidian.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200712031558.lB3Fwhx1027782@bubbleator.drizzle.com> DANGIT! The 4.1 clearance sale mentioned in the subject line doesn't apply to list members, since, obviously, you would pay $5.00 more for the last version! What I get for emailing before my 2nd cup of coffee! My bad! Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From jaybates at rcn.com Mon Dec 3 08:07:04 2007 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Mon Dec 3 08:06:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000701c835c6$8d1c54a0$6501a8c0@astound.net> Cash and Treasure did a shoot at the Benitoite Gem Mine this weekend. It was snowing and cold, 11 degrees F Saturday morning. I was impressed at how well the Cash and Treasure crew handled the situation. Most of them slept in tents Saturday night. Kirsten is as tough as her profile on the Cash and Treasure web site says she is. She is not just another pretty face for the cameras. They also went out blacklighting after dark. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Fisher To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel > A future episode is on collecting petrified wood and part was shot at > Alex McDonald's ranch in Ashwood, OR. Alex has pulled some > magnificent trunks from his Metasequoia "petrified forest" and I hope > they got some footage of a nice big honker. They wanted me to take > them to the Owyhees to dig picture jasper this month but there are so > many problems with that area that I declined. One being the roads are > gumbo and will stay that way until we get a nice long dry spell. A > miner I know in that area actually declined to be on the show because > he doesn't want any publicity for his mine (go figure). I am trying > to get them to go to the Regency Rose, Richardson's Ranch, or Valley > View mine next spring, all of which I think would be excellent > subjects, but they "already did agate and thundereggs". Go figure. I > don't think the viewers care of they do agate or thundereggs once, > twice, or ten times, they need to get the word out about the > excellent rockhounding "treasures" available in the Pacific NW that > aren't called sunstones lol. > > At 09:13 PM 12/2/2007, you wrote: > >FYI...Best Places to Find Cash & Treasures is back on the tube > >again. Haven't watched it yet, but today's episode was about looking > >for copper at Calcedonia copper mine of Lake Superior. > > > >Glad it's back on! Carol > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jaybates at rcn.com Mon Dec 3 08:23:06 2007 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Mon Dec 3 08:22:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <000701c835c6$8d1c54a0$6501a8c0@astound.net> Message-ID: <000601c835c8$ca0f70c0$6501a8c0@astound.net> Rockhounds@drizzle.com administrator. I would like to retract my previous statement about Cash and Treasure as I have signed a waiver with Cash and Treasure. ----- Original Message ----- From: jaybates To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel > Cash and Treasure did a shoot at the Benitoite Gem Mine this weekend. It was > snowing and cold, 11 degrees F Saturday morning. I was impressed at how well > the Cash and Treasure crew handled the situation. Most of them slept in > tents Saturday night. Kirsten is as tough as her profile on the Cash and > Treasure web site says she is. She is not just another pretty face for the > cameras. They also went out blacklighting after dark. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tim Fisher > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel > > > > A future episode is on collecting petrified wood and part was shot at > > Alex McDonald's ranch in Ashwood, OR. Alex has pulled some > > magnificent trunks from his Metasequoia "petrified forest" and I hope > > they got some footage of a nice big honker. They wanted me to take > > them to the Owyhees to dig picture jasper this month but there are so > > many problems with that area that I declined. One being the roads are > > gumbo and will stay that way until we get a nice long dry spell. A > > miner I know in that area actually declined to be on the show because > > he doesn't want any publicity for his mine (go figure). I am trying > > to get them to go to the Regency Rose, Richardson's Ranch, or Valley > > View mine next spring, all of which I think would be excellent > > subjects, but they "already did agate and thundereggs". Go figure. I > > don't think the viewers care of they do agate or thundereggs once, > > twice, or ten times, they need to get the word out about the > > excellent rockhounding "treasures" available in the Pacific NW that > > aren't called sunstones lol. > > > > At 09:13 PM 12/2/2007, you wrote: > > >FYI...Best Places to Find Cash & Treasures is back on the tube > > >again. Haven't watched it yet, but today's episode was about looking > > >for copper at Calcedonia copper mine of Lake Superior. > > > > > >Glad it's back on! Carol > > > > Tim Fisher > > Ore-ROCK-On! > > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From tjokela at execulink.com Mon Dec 3 08:24:56 2007 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Mon Dec 3 08:25:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic References: <4753745B.6495@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <004501c835c9$0f023280$6400a8c0@Junior> Worst. Comic. Ever. Srsly, makes no sense lol. Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Business: http://www.element51.com Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic > He has been throwing his rock collection into the yard (digging up the > turf) and smashing them on the walkway. At least that is how it appeared > in the color version in my local paper. > > Kreigh > > > Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, >> Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: >> >> http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc/crbal20071127 >> >> hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing >> something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the humor... >> What the heck >> are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... >> >> oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, >> >> Pete >> From spocksrocks at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 08:26:45 2007 From: spocksrocks at hotmail.com (Scotts Rock & Gem) Date: Mon Dec 3 08:26:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: I've certainly seen elevated interest at gem shows in 2007 about things like sunstones, and megalodon teeth, etc. I realize this is due to the stir created by the Cash and Treasures show. But it remains to be seen whether legions of TV watchers will take up the pick axe and pry bar, as your "no publicity" miner probably fears. The producer's attitude that "we've already done agate and thundereggs" seems to lack the more full blown rockhounding fever, and is perhaps informed more by a TV producers sense of what might get viewers, versus what might get redundant. I've sometimes wondered how long a string of new and different rockhounding sites could be premiered, before you either get into nuances, or have to go on to something different to capture audience attention. The words of Edward Abbey, musing on possible ways to convey the tourist into Yosemite, come to mind. From his book Desert Solitaire - "let them ride wild pigs!" For my part, I can say that if there's a block of time that comes up, and it's a choice between watching TV, and wielding a rock pick, you all know which way I'm going to go! Seasons Best to all - Scott Blair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Fisher" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel >A future episode is on collecting petrified wood and part was shot at Alex >McDonald's ranch in Ashwood, OR. Alex has pulled some magnificent trunks >from his Metasequoia "petrified forest" and I hope they got some footage of >a nice big honker. They wanted me to take them to the Owyhees to dig >picture jasper this month but there are so many problems with that area >that I declined. One being the roads are gumbo and will stay that way until >we get a nice long dry spell. A miner I know in that area actually declined >to be on the show because he doesn't want any publicity for his mine (go >figure). I am trying to get them to go to the Regency Rose, Richardson's >Ranch, or Valley View mine next spring, all of which I think would be >excellent subjects, but they "already did agate and thundereggs". Go >figure. I don't think the viewers care of they do agate or thundereggs >once, twice, or ten times, they need to get the word out about the >excellent rockhounding "treasures" available in the Pacific NW that aren't >called sunstones lol. > > At 09:13 PM 12/2/2007, you wrote: >>FYI...Best Places to Find Cash & Treasures is back on the tube again. >>Haven't watched it yet, but today's episode was about looking for copper >>at Calcedonia copper mine of Lake Superior. >> >>Glad it's back on! Carol > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From prgilmore at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 10:23:47 2007 From: prgilmore at hotmail.com (Paul Gilmore) Date: Mon Dec 3 10:23:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's atlas Message-ID: Folks: Does anyone know where I can get the reprinted book version of Goldschmidt's crystal atlas? I have the CD version and find it cumbersome to navigate. Paul Gilmore _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kadok at infowest.com Mon Dec 3 12:12:31 2007 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Mon Dec 3 12:11:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. In-Reply-To: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP> References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok> Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"??? Margaret -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 2:01 AM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. here's my one plausible explanation: the wife cleaned up and put all of Larry's precious rocks in a cigar box. Now he doesn't know what is what and in frustration throws them away... Don't laugh, these things happen. We once did a night trip to Plombi?res, a famous Belgian locality, where fluorescent calcite, willemite, gypsum and hydrozincite were found. We did it with home-made lamps in those days. It was Christmas in October. Everywhere you pointed your UV lamps there was red and green en yellow and blue... We collected as much as we could carry from the old zinc & lead mine. Now, spectacular as they may look in UV, the collected rocks were dirty and ugly beyond belief. Some years later the locality was closed and covered with a parking lot. So we cheered as our little stockpile of rocks actually became worth something. One of my friends immediately went to his garage to check his "box of goodies" which he couldn't find... He turned his garage AND cellar upside down and inside out, still no rocks. Finally he asked his wife if she knew were they were. "Oh, those ugly dirty rocks? I threw those away some time ago. There was nothing fancy about those and I thought you set them aside as garbage." she said. My friend still mourns the loss of his treasures... The term justifiable homicide comes to mind, doesn't it? > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Pmodreski@aol.com > Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 3:35 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic > > > In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:20:53 PM Mountain Standard > Time, Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: > > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20071127/cx_crbal_uc > /crbal20071127 > > > hmmmm, Kreigh.... too bad I don't "get it". Obviously I'm missing > something... or maybe it's a Michigan thing to understand the > humor... What the heck > are those rocks doing, or is he doing with the rocks... > > oh well... I'm probably just slow at this, > > Pete > > > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of > 2007's hottest products. > (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop000 30000000001) > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 3 12:34:56 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Mon Dec 3 12:35:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <000601c835eb$f7ae96a0$80dc2c4b@LarryRush> Speaking for "Larry's" comic strip............................... I thought that they were the kinds of minerals that I asked my parents to bring me back from Pike's Peak, (they thought I meant ROCKS) and ended up throwing away into my yard!! Larry From lavenderfish at cox.net Mon Dec 3 15:11:27 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Mon Dec 3 15:11:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> I think given the show's title, a lot of the general public's interest may lean more toward "where can I go find something ("free", right off the ground!) that I can make Big Bucks off of" and a mild interest in the actual mineral itself. A direct quote at the opening of last night's copper episode was "a day of digging can easily get you big money!" Followed by the $ value of a good sized hunk-o-copper. I'll always take the thrill of the hunt and the chance of a find as the greatest treasure! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scotts Rock & Gem" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel > I've certainly seen elevated interest at gem shows in 2007 about things > like sunstones, and megalodon teeth, etc. I realize this is due to the > stir created by the Cash and Treasures show. But it remains to be seen > whether legions of TV watchers will take up the pick axe and pry bar, as > your "no publicity" miner probably fears. > The producer's attitude that "we've already done agate and thundereggs" > seems to lack the more full blown rockhounding fever, and is perhaps > informed more by a TV producers sense of what might get viewers, versus > what might get redundant. I've sometimes wondered how long a string of new > and different rockhounding sites could be premiered, before you either get > into nuances, or have to go on to something different to capture audience > attention. > > The words of Edward Abbey, musing on possible ways to convey the tourist > into Yosemite, come to mind. From his book Desert Solitaire - "let them > ride wild pigs!" For my part, I can say that if there's a block of time > that comes up, and it's a choice between watching TV, and wielding a rock > pick, you all know which way I'm going to go! > > Seasons Best to all - Scott Blair > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Fisher" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 12:12 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel > > >>A future episode is on collecting petrified wood and part was shot at Alex >>McDonald's ranch in Ashwood, OR. Alex has pulled some magnificent trunks >>from his Metasequoia "petrified forest" and I hope they got some footage >>of a nice big honker. They wanted me to take them to the Owyhees to dig >>picture jasper this month but there are so many problems with that area >>that I declined. One being the roads are gumbo and will stay that way >>until we get a nice long dry spell. A miner I know in that area actually >>declined to be on the show because he doesn't want any publicity for his >>mine (go figure). I am trying to get them to go to the Regency Rose, >>Richardson's Ranch, or Valley View mine next spring, all of which I think >>would be excellent subjects, but they "already did agate and thundereggs". >>Go figure. I don't think the viewers care of they do agate or thundereggs >>once, twice, or ten times, they need to get the word out about the >>excellent rockhounding "treasures" available in the Pacific NW that aren't >>called sunstones lol. >> >> At 09:13 PM 12/2/2007, you wrote: >>>FYI...Best Places to Find Cash & Treasures is back on the tube again. >>>Haven't watched it yet, but today's episode was about looking for copper >>>at Calcedonia copper mine of Lake Superior. >>> >>>Glad it's back on! Carol >> >> Tim Fisher >> Ore-ROCK-On! >> Email address at http://OreRockOn.com >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From pmodreski at aol.com Mon Dec 3 15:46:47 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 3 15:46:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <8CA041DE7290CD5-E30-2C3A@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> I agree that the main focus of this show is "where can I go dig up WHATEVER that's worth big $$$$$$", and they do love to exaggerate the value of what you can find and the ease of finding it.? Nonetheless I've seen a few episodes, and it's certainly fun to see what they say about the places we know about. It would be nice to see their episode on the Caledonia mine (I won't, because I don't get that cable station).? I'm sure some of you know Richard Whiteman, who owns & runs Red Metal Minerals and the Caledonia Mine.? Richard is a real nice guy--I see him as a dealer at the Denver and Tucson shows--and he was the recipient of the Carnegie Mineralogical Award for 2006, presented at the last Tucson Show.? Aside from specimen mining and mine tours, Richard helps sponsor the annual Red Metal Retreat, and partnered with Michigan Tech for several years to host the Teachers Earth Science Workshop at the mine.? You can read about the Caledonia mine at http://www.red-metal.com/mine.htm and about Richard's receiving the Carnegie Award at http://www.carnegiemnh.org/news/07-jan-mar/mineralogical%20award%202007.doc Pete Modreski I think given the show's title, a lot of the general public's interest may lean more toward "where can I go find something ("free", right off the ground!) that I can make Big Bucks off of" and a mild interest in the actual mineral itself. A direct quote at the opening of last night's copper episode was "a day of digging can easily get you big money!" Followed by the $ value of a good sized hunk-o-copper.? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From OnyxCollector at aol.com Mon Dec 3 16:08:13 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 3 16:08:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic Message-ID: Actually this comic reminds me of the time I got a very angry phone call from the husband of a lady who got a bag of geodes from me. She apparently put each geode on a different stepping stone in her back yard, and smashed each stone trying to break open the geodes. Is he trying to smash open geodes on his sidewalk? **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Dec 3 16:47:17 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Dec 3 16:46:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's atlas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4754A395.4080208@verizon.net> Paul Gilmore wrote: > Folks: > > Does anyone know where I can get the reprinted book version of Goldschmidt's crystal atlas? I have the CD version and find it cumbersome to navigate. > > Paul Gilmore I had to get mine from a used book dealer. Try alibris.com, abebooks.com, Rocks of Ages, and other used booksellers. It wasn't easy. Best of luck! Don From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Dec 3 09:28:50 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Dec 3 16:53:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com><000701c835c6$8d1c54a0$6501a8c0@astound.net> <000601c835c8$ca0f70c0$6501a8c0@astound.net> Message-ID: <003001c835d1$ffdd2860$0200a8c0@Notebook> Jay, There's nothing we can do to help you here. Your post is already in the ether. John Siebel Admin Team ----- Original Message ----- From: "jaybates" > Rockhounds@drizzle.com administrator. I would like to retract my previous > statement about Cash and Treasure as I have signed a waiver with Cash and > Treasure. From rockcurrier at cs.com Mon Dec 3 17:27:47 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Mon Dec 3 17:25:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's Atlas References: <200712032313.lB3ND8qX009193@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <009901c83614$e110ce80$6901a8c0@rock3> Paul, Goldschmidt's Atlas was reprinted by the Rochester Symposium group some years ago in a soft cover and I think also in a hard cover state. I would rather doubt that they would have any left. I suspect that you would need to find them through a out of print mineral book dealer. I bought originals many years ago, a set for $300. It cost a lot more than that to have them bound in leather. Rock From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Mon Dec 3 17:26:55 2007 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Mon Dec 3 17:25:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <8CA041DE7290CD5-E30-2C3A@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <8CA041DE7290CD5-E30-2C3A@FWM-D45.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3121FFD2-58C3-4FDD-8D61-5AC0095D86B7@verizon.net> The show does have some benefits. Last year one of the segments was on the Brushy Creek Mine in NC. All of the local rock shops in the area reported a major increase in business after the show aired. People coming into the shops all talked about those North Carolina aquas etc. C On Dec 3, 2007, at 6:46 PM, pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > I agree that the main focus of this show is "where can I go dig up > WHATEVER that's worth big $$$$$$", and they do love to exaggerate > the value of what you can find and the ease of finding it.? > Nonetheless I've seen a few episodes, and it's certainly fun to see > what they say about the places we know about. > > It would be nice to see their episode on the Caledonia mine (I > won't, because I don't get that cable station).? I'm sure some of > you know Richard Whiteman, who owns & runs Red Metal Minerals and > the Caledonia Mine.? Richard is a real nice guy--I see him as a > dealer at the Denver and Tucson shows--and he was the recipient of > the Carnegie Mineralogical Award for 2006, presented at the last > Tucson Show.? Aside from specimen mining and mine tours, Richard > helps sponsor the annual Red Metal Retreat, and partnered with > Michigan Tech for several years to host the Teachers Earth Science > Workshop at the mine.? You can read about the Caledonia mine at > > http://www.red-metal.com/mine.htm > > > and about Richard's receiving the Carnegie Award at > > http://www.carnegiemnh.org/news/07-jan-mar/mineralogical%20award% > 202007.doc > > > Pete Modreski > > > > I think given the show's title, a lot of the general public's > interest may lean more toward "where can I go find something > ("free", right off the ground!) that I can make Big Bucks off of" > and a mild interest in the actual mineral itself. A direct quote at > the opening of last night's copper episode was "a day of digging > can easily get you big money!" Followed by the $ value of a good > sized hunk-o-copper.? > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > __ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http:// > o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm? > ncid=aolcmp00050000000003 > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Dec 3 17:38:56 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Dec 3 17:51:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook> > I'll always take the thrill of the hunt and the chance of a find as the > greatest treasure! Right attitude by me Carol. I've got plenty of leaverite junk that I'll never lose because it reminds me of a fine trip. John From rhill at lpl.arizona.edu Mon Dec 3 18:10:11 2007 From: rhill at lpl.arizona.edu (Rik Hill) Date: Mon Dec 3 18:10:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <4754B703.9050201@lpl.arizona.edu> I use all that leaverite around the yard and in rock walls. Functional and they remind me of fun times. -Rik John Siebel wrote: >> I'll always take the thrill of the hunt and the chance of a find as >> the greatest treasure! > > Right attitude by me Carol. I've got plenty of leaverite junk that > I'll never lose because it reminds me of a fine trip. > > John > From kcbaran at arczip.com Mon Dec 3 18:09:10 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Mon Dec 3 18:15:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <4754B703.9050201@lpl.arizona.edu> References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook> <4754B703.9050201@lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <4754B6C6.20903@arczip.com> "Cash and Treasures": I always spend more on my trips than my treasures I find are possibly worth. Except for the fun and adventure factor. Chuck Rik Hill wrote: > I use all that leaverite around the yard and in rock walls. Functional > and they remind me of fun times. > > -Rik > > > John Siebel wrote: > >>> I'll always take the thrill of the hunt and the chance of a find as >>> the greatest treasure! >> >> >> Right attitude by me Carol. I've got plenty of leaverite junk that >> I'll never lose because it reminds me of a fine trip. >> >> John >> > From Paintricks at aol.com Mon Dec 3 20:56:53 2007 From: Paintricks at aol.com (Paintricks@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 3 20:57:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel Message-ID: I can relate. I remember just about every place I find rocks. Who I was with and where and when I went to a certain place. Seems I enjoy picking through all the stuff I find later at home and after cleaning it I discover new things in the things I pick up. I too use all the stuff I don't want to display or trade in my landscaping. Now that we bought a house I have places to put them. But it's not like I need more rocks, I need more shelves. What's your ultimate rock? Kevin **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From OnyxCollector at aol.com Mon Dec 3 22:29:12 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 3 22:29:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures expenses vs treasures Message-ID: Yeah, most of the time I too spend more than what I find is worth. The two exceptions have been the Oceanview Mine in Pala, CA and the Himalaya Mine in Mesa Grande, CA. The Himalaya will be featured in an upcoming episode. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Dec 4 02:13:03 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 4 03:13:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. In-Reply-To: <004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok> References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <000001c8365e$426db190$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Another possible explanation: Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it with a elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it. Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade. I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, some armed coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out the pin of one and it went off. The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about and the somewhat baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed by his own rocks, on Larry's face suggest that he is trying to grasp the concept of exploding petrified shit. He still has another armed coprolite in his left hand and you can almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!" Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm > Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13 > Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"??? > > Margaret > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 06:57:36 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Tue Dec 4 06:57:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <4754B703.9050201@lpl.arizona.edu> Message-ID: <441591.55560.qm@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All that leaverite can also be educational. I have a 150' gravel driveway, The scraps get thrown there (why buy gravel?). My great-grandsons who live next door walk up the driveway and pick up what doesn't match the limestone, and bring it to me:"Poppa, look what I found!". A great opportunity to teach them a little about rocks. THe older boy is now 9, and has his own microscope and collection. Jim Daly Rik Hill wrote: I use all that leaverite around the yard and in rock walls. Functional and they remind me of fun times. -Rik John Siebel wrote: >> I'll always take the thrill of the hunt and the chance of a find as >> the greatest treasure! > > Right attitude by me Carol. I've got plenty of leaverite junk that > I'll never lose because it reminds me of a fine trip. > > John > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 07:01:47 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Tue Dec 4 07:01:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP><004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok> <000001c8365e$426db190$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <001901c83686$98f3a100$d2faf604@TheBlackAdder> Bravo Axel! Best post on this thread in my opinion. Your humor is even better than before your surgery. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: Axel Emmermann To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:13 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. Another possible explanation: Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it with a elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it. Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade. I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, some armed coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out the pin of one and it went off. The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about and the somewhat baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed by his own rocks, on Larry's face suggest that he is trying to grasp the concept of exploding petrified shit. He still has another armed coprolite in his left hand and you can almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!" Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm > Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13 > Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"??? > > Margaret > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From cscrystals2 at verizon.net Tue Dec 4 07:28:42 2007 From: cscrystals2 at verizon.net (Carolyn & Steve Weinberger) Date: Tue Dec 4 07:26:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cash & Treasures on Travel Channel In-Reply-To: <441591.55560.qm@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <441591.55560.qm@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <609EC091-0C37-4DA6-8B29-8FD65D21E5A9@verizon.net> And don't forget that new minerals are still being identified. If something new has been identified from your favorite site, just go back through the leaverite and see if you have any of it. C > From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Dec 4 06:56:20 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Dec 4 07:56:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. In-Reply-To: <001901c83686$98f3a100$d2faf604@TheBlackAdder> References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP><004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok><000001c8365e$426db190$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <001901c83686$98f3a100$d2faf604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <002b01c83685$d4f47540$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Thanks, Erich... Must be that my brain gets more oxygen ;-))) Maybe coprolites from the Dynamitosaurus or Pyrotechnitops or Explodiraptor? Does remind me of that rather silly 1968 movie with Dick Van Dyke, Sally Ann Howes and Gert Fr?be... What's the title again? Oh yes, Shitty Shitty Bang Bang. Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Erich Kern > Verzonden: dinsdag 4 december 2007 16:02 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > > Bravo Axel! Best post on this thread in my opinion. > > Your humor is even better than before your surgery. > > Erich Kern > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Axel Emmermann > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:13 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > > Another possible explanation: > > Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it > with a elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it. > Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade. > I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, > some armed coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out > the pin of one and it went off. > The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about > and the somewhat baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed > by his own rocks, on Larry's face suggest that he is trying > to grasp the concept of exploding petrified shit. He still > has another armed coprolite in his left hand and you can > almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!" > > Axel > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm > > Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13 > > Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > collectors' > > Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > > > Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"??? > > > > Margaret > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From rik.dillen at skynet.be Tue Dec 4 11:28:51 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Tue Dec 4 11:29:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's Atlas In-Reply-To: <009901c83614$e110ce80$6901a8c0@rock3> References: <200712032313.lB3ND8qX009193@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <009901c83614$e110ce80$6901a8c0@rock3> Message-ID: <000001c836ab$ea6e3de0$bf4ab9a0$@dillen@skynet.be> I have the complete set on 2 CD's (scanned from the reprint, one page = one file). I purchased it from Hans-J?rgen Berg in Oslo, Norway about 7-8 years ago. I have just verified his coordinates : Hans J?rgen Berg Title Overingeni?r Postal Address NHM, Konservering og fors Postboks 1172 Blindern 0318 OSLO Street Address for unit Forskningstekn Sars gate 1 T?yen 0562 OSLO Phone Number +47-22851772, +47-92442890, +47-99449701 Fax Number +47-22851800 E-mail h.j.berg@nhm.uio.no Just ask him if he still has them available. If not, I can always send you a copy on CD?s from my set, provided that you get permission from him for me to do so, of course. Best regards, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Rock Currier Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 2:28 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's Atlas Paul, Goldschmidt's Atlas was reprinted by the Rochester Symposium group some years ago in a soft cover and I think also in a hard cover state. I would rather doubt that they would have any left. I suspect that you would need to find them through a out of print mineral book dealer. I bought originals many years ago, a set for $300. It cost a lot more than that to have them bound in leather. Rock --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rik.dillen at skynet.be Tue Dec 4 11:32:12 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Tue Dec 4 11:33:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's atlas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01c836ac$5e7945e0$1b6bd1a0$@dillen@skynet.be> Sorry, Paul (and others), I was reading my messages backwards, hence I didn't see that you already have the CD-version. You are right, it is not very easy to navigate through the pages. Grts, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmore Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 7:24 PM To: GeoliterarySociety@egroups.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's atlas Folks: Does anyone know where I can get the reprinted book version of Goldschmidt's crystal atlas? I have the CD version and find it cumbersome to navigate. Paul Gilmore _________________________________________________________________ From roughrock at gmail.com Tue Dec 4 14:35:53 2007 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Tue Dec 4 14:35:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] glow in the dark clothes Message-ID: Now your clothes can glow in the dark when you are out there with your UV light. http://www.textileweb.com/content/news/article.asp?DocID=%7bA95C16D8-FC57-4370-978C-FC4F26809639%7d&Bucket=Current+Headlines&VNETCOOKIE=NO Hope this word wrap doesn't tweek the URL. Grant From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 4 17:28:10 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 4 17:18:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Researchers study 10,000 year old buried forest Message-ID: <4755FC49.53F@Tomaszewski.net> http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/breaking/2000/forest.html I don't often hear about geology on the radio, but this morning my favorite drive time DJ was talking about a forest buried in sand by the retreating glaciers in Northern Michigan. Kreigh From flint...smith at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 4 17:56:12 2007 From: flint...smith at sbcglobal.net (Flint Smith) Date: Tue Dec 4 17:56:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In-Reply-To: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <740511.34749.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> He's wondering how they moved themselves. Possibly they were stuck into a large sheet of ice that helped grab the wind and skate them across the surface of his walk and lawn. Erich Kern wrote: In trying to figure out what was funny about this cartoon, I kept thinking he was putting them off the porch with a golf putter, but couldn't see any. Oh Well, must be the regional sense of humor at work. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: Pmodreski@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:14:21 PM Mountain Standard Time, Kreigh@tomaszewski.net writes: He has been throwing his rock collection into the yard (digging up the turf) and smashing them on the walkway. At least that is how it appeared in the color version in my local paper. Kreigh It did look like the rocks were moving, but I wasn't sure if they were being rolled away, or moving under their own power. Maybe he is indeed "setting them free". Kreigh, you obviously have a much more refined sense of humor than we peasants! cheers, Pete **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 4 18:58:14 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 4 18:48:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue Message-ID: <4756115A.1573@Tomaszewski.net> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120202280.html?hpid=topnews A high school student found a rare 'mummified' hadrosaur that includes skin and muscles. Much of the fossil did not collapse. National Geographic Channel will be airing a special on it Sunday according to the news story. Watch out for the long link wrapping. Kreigh From litleval at ruralnetwork.net Wed Dec 5 00:32:14 2007 From: litleval at ruralnetwork.net (Wayne Rasmussen) Date: Wed Dec 5 00:32:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP><004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok> <000001c8365e$426db190$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <003001c83719$5a138d40$685fe842@Titans> Axel, Now I'm satisfied with the cartoon....and still laughing. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axel Emmermann" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > Another possible explanation: > > Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it with a > elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it. > Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade. > I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, some armed > coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out the pin of one and it > went off. > The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about and the > somewhat > baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed by his own rocks, on Larry's > face suggest that he is trying to grasp the concept of exploding petrified > shit. He still has another armed coprolite in his left hand and you can > almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!" > > Axel > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm >> Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13 >> Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >> collectors' >> Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. >> >> Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"??? >> >> Margaret >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Dec 5 03:59:20 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Dec 5 03:59:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. In-Reply-To: <003001c83719$5a138d40$685fe842@Titans> References: <000901c8358b$17d8ce70$6401a8c0@AxelHP><004701c835e8$d5bf7bc0$0200a8c0@kadok><000001c8365e$426db190$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <003001c83719$5a138d40$685fe842@Titans> Message-ID: <001b01c83736$452196d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Wayne, a twisted mind is a joy for ever ;-))) If you apply my wacko kind of reasoning most things become apparent. Not necessarily clear but answering to at least ONE logic: mine. There's "fuzzy" logic and then there's "funny" logic. Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Wayne Rasmussen > Verzonden: woensdag 5 december 2007 9:32 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > Axel, > > Now I'm satisfied with the cartoon....and still laughing. > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Axel Emmermann" > To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > > > > Another possible explanation: > > > > Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it with a > > elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it. > > Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade. > > I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, some armed > > coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out the pin > of one and it > > went off. > > The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about and the > > somewhat > > baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed by his own > rocks, on Larry's > > face suggest that he is trying to grasp the concept of > exploding petrified > > shit. He still has another armed coprolite in his left hand > and you can > > almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!" > > > > Axel > > > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > >> Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm > >> Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13 > >> Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >> collectors' > >> Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life. > >> > >> Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"??? > >> > >> Margaret > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From zebulon at isr.umich.edu Wed Dec 5 04:42:37 2007 From: zebulon at isr.umich.edu (Peter Sparks) Date: Wed Dec 5 04:42:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Researchers study 10,000 year old buried forest In-Reply-To: <4755FC49.53F@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4755FC49.53F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <6F651C1505A4A048923BCF2D756A7E49022BA6D9@isr-mail2.ad.isr.umich.edu> I suspect it's the same Michigan buried forest I read about a while ago in the newspapers. The researchers had been contacted by the quarry operators and were able to study the site for a full year before they decided to release the news. The day after a newspaper article was printed a stump turned up missing. There are also documented times where sand dunes slump and bury trees and other debris in sand on the lake bottom (Sleeping Bear Dunes, 1914, 1970, 1995). Here's a web link talking about the sand slides: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1998/fs020-98/ The water in the lakes is really cold and I suspect there's quite a lot of once-living things buried in the lake sediment. -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:28 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] Researchers study 10,000 year old buried forest http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/breaking/2000/forest.html I don't often hear about geology on the radio, but this morning my favorite drive time DJ was talking about a forest buried in sand by the retreating glaciers in Northern Michigan. Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jasmine1259 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 5 19:03:41 2007 From: jasmine1259 at hotmail.com (Vickie Roberts) Date: Wed Dec 5 19:03:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <200712060200.lB620Iwl010181@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712060200.lB620Iwl010181@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: hello i just wanted to unsubscribe cause i no longer get out.i have no way to rockhound anymore (no car ) and it isnt fun going alone (my daughter is in kuwait she is a seabee )so please unsubscribe thank you,vickie jasmine1 > Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:00:45 -0800> From: rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com> Subject: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 43, Issue 6> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> > Send Rockhounds mailing list submissions to> rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com> > You can reach the person managing the list at> rockhounds-owner@lists.drizzle.com> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of Rockhounds digest..."> > > [Rockhounds-Digest]> > Today's Topics:> > 1. Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue (Kreigh Tomaszewski)> 2. Re: Rockhounding Comic now real life. (Wayne Rasmussen)> 3. RE: Rockhounding Comic now real life. (Axel Emmermann)> 4. RE: Researchers study 10,000 year old buried forest (Peter Sparks)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:58:14 -0500> From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem> collectors" > Message-ID: <4756115A.1573@Tomaszewski.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii> > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120202280.html?hpid=topnews> > > A high school student found a rare 'mummified' hadrosaur that includes> skin and muscles. Much of the fossil did not collapse. National> Geographic Channel will be airing a special on it Sunday according to> the news story. Watch out for the long link wrapping.> > Kreigh> > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:32:14 -0700> From: "Wayne Rasmussen" > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem> collectors" > Message-ID: <003001c83719$5a138d40$685fe842@Titans>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";> reply-type=original> > Axel,> > Now I'm satisfied with the cartoon....and still laughing.> > Wayne> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Axel Emmermann" > To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 AM> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> > > > Another possible explanation:> >> > Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it with a> > elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it.> > Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade.> > I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, some armed> > coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out the pin of one and it> > went off.> > The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about and the > > somewhat> > baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed by his own rocks, on Larry's> > face suggest that he is trying to grasp the concept of exploding petrified> > shit. He still has another armed coprolite in his left hand and you can> > almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!"> >> > Axel> >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----> >> Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com> >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm> >> Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13> >> Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem> >> collectors'> >> Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> >>> >> Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"???> >>> >> Margaret> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com> >> > -- > > _______________________________________________> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> > Subscription Services:> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html> > > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:59:20 +0100> From: "Axel Emmermann" > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem> collectors'" > Message-ID: <001b01c83736$452196d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"> > Wayne, a twisted mind is a joy for ever ;-)))> If you apply my wacko kind of reasoning most things become apparent. Not> necessarily clear but answering to at least ONE logic: mine. There's "fuzzy"> logic and then there's "funny" logic.> > Axel > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----> > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Wayne Rasmussen> > Verzonden: woensdag 5 december 2007 9:32> > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > collectors> > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> > > > Axel,> > > > Now I'm satisfied with the cartoon....and still laughing.> > > > Wayne> > > > ----- Original Message -----> > From: "Axel Emmermann" > > To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > collectors'" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:13 AM> > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> > > > > > > Another possible explanation:> > >> > > Look at Larry's left hand. You'll see a round object in it with a> > > elliptical/round wire-like structure sticking out of it.> > > Like a pulling ring of the pin of a hand grenade.> > > I think that the man had, unbeknownst to him or his wife, some armed> > > coprolites in that box. He accidentally pulled out the pin > > of one and it> > > went off.> > > The grass that's been ploughed by the rocks that flew about and the > > > somewhat> > > baffled look, almost as if he felt betrayed by his own > > rocks, on Larry's> > > face suggest that he is trying to grasp the concept of > > exploding petrified> > > shit. He still has another armed coprolite in his left hand > > and you can> > > almost hear his thoughts... "Wow, didn't know rocks could do that!"> > >> > > Axel> > >> > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----> > >> Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com> > >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Margaret Malm> > >> Verzonden: maandag 3 december 2007 21:13> > >> Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem> > >> collectors'> > >> Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Rockhounding Comic now real life.> > >>> > >> Maybe they were Leaverites that he was letting "go home"???> > >>> > >> Margaret> > >>> > >> -----Original Message-----> > >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com> > >> > > -- > > > _______________________________________________> > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> > > Subscription Services:> > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html> > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________> > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> > Subscription Services:> > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html> > > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 4> Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 07:42:37 -0500> From: "Peter Sparks" > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Researchers study 10,000 year old buried> forest> To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem> collectors" > Message-ID:> <6F651C1505A4A048923BCF2D756A7E49022BA6D9@isr-mail2.ad.isr.umich.edu>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"> > I suspect it's the same Michigan buried forest I read about a while ago> in the newspapers. The researchers had been contacted by the quarry> operators and were able to study the site for a full year before they> decided to release the news. The day after a newspaper article was> printed a stump turned up missing.> > There are also documented times where sand dunes slump and bury trees> and other debris in sand on the lake bottom (Sleeping Bear Dunes, 1914,> 1970, 1995). Here's a web link talking about the sand slides:> > http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1998/fs020-98/> > The water in the lakes is really cold and I suspect there's quite a lot> of once-living things buried in the lake sediment.> > -----Original Message-----> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh> Tomaszewski> Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 8:28 PM> To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors> Subject: [Rockhounds] Researchers study 10,000 year old buried forest> > http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/breaking/2000/forest.html> > > I don't often hear about geology on the radio, but this morning my> favorite drive time DJ was talking about a forest buried in sand by the> retreating glaciers in Northern Michigan. > > Kreigh> > --> _______________________________________________> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> Subscription Services:> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html> > > > ------------------------------> > -- > _______________________________________________> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> Subscription Services:> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html> > End of Rockhounds Digest, Vol 43, Issue 6> ***************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 5 20:31:40 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 5 20:31:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blizzard Warning Posted for Hawaii Message-ID: <47577B1C.3C32@Tomaszewski.net> http://www.weather.gov/alerts/hi.html When we visited Kitty & Bill in Hawaii a few years ago, Bill showed us glacial striations on rocks near the summit of Mauna Kea. Greetings from wintery Michigan! Kreigh & Monica From jr50wv at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 04:58:52 2007 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Thu Dec 6 04:59:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] fossilized soft tissue etc... Message-ID: <31334.86295.qm@web56307.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi all: Axel, you're breaking me up on the cartoon. For what it's worth, that particular cartoon rarely makes total sense to me, so an armed coprolite works just fine for me. Way back in 1991 Martha and I visited the Green River Formation area of SW Wyoming, Fossil Butte National Monument, etc. We were in a rock shop near there, run by a coal miner and his wife, when we heard the miner shout from the back of the shop, "Honey, you should see the coprolite I found this morning! It's so perfect! It even has squeeze marks!" His wife was totally embarrassed and said "I'm sorry, you'll have to excuse him, he's just a coal miner!" Then my wife said, "That's OK, I'm a coal miner's daughter" and I chipped in with "My GrandDad was a miner, and my brother put himself through college by mining for a couple of years." Which just added to her embarrassment. It (her blush) was a beauty. The copro was sweet too. Anyway, on to geology: I saw a photo of remnant skin of this newly revealed beauty, and the scales were hexagonal and the size of your thumbnail! The story had a quote to the effect that they could be sure there were stripes in the skin, and mentioned that current day scaled animules with stripes were usually brightly colored. The skinks that skitter up my stucco everyday have stripes, and they're neon irridescent! Imagine a giantneon-blue-green-red irridescent 35-ton monster running through the primeval forest with fernish trees thrashing one way and the other. Imagine running yourself right behind because A Carnivore was chasing the shiny giant!! It snowed here yesterday, then turned to rain in the evening to create slush. Now it's 17 degrees F, way too cold for slush to stay liquid. Oh, Joy, Winter is here! It didn't even cover up the mud and leaves, so it looks like a white wonderland covered with leaves and dirt. Yuck! Keep on rockin', where the ground ain't frozen! JR PS, There's a park called Dinosaur National Monument, with a big dino quarry you can visit. There's over 20,000 bones on the rock face, with a hadrosaur face 6 feet tall looking out at you from the cryptozoic stone universe. I was so awed I didn't even take photos for being stunned! Near Vernal UT, and worth the trip (from anywhere! ) all by itself! If I had seen that as a youth, my whole life would have been different! --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Thu Dec 6 09:22:31 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Dec 6 09:22:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] fossilized soft tissue etc... In-Reply-To: <31334.86295.qm@web56307.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <31334.86295.qm@web56307.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004e01c8382c$95d10880$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hello J.R. Coprolite from a Fossil Butt? Must have made a grinding sound on its way out? I trust this was unintentional wordplay? Am I the only one to notice this... I tried to ignore it but it was like a carrot dungling (oh yeah, pun intended, no typo's here ;-) before my nose. Ouch, laughing still hurts ;-))) Wet and windy here... No snow yet. The only squeeze marks here are around the politicians throats... Nearly 6 months after election and we still don't have a government. Hilarious... We're twice the size of greater L.A. and we're stuck between two languages. Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens J. R. Hodel > Verzonden: donderdag 6 december 2007 13:59 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] fossilized soft tissue etc... > > Hi all: > > Axel, you're breaking me up on the cartoon. For what it's > worth, that particular cartoon rarely makes total sense to > me, so an armed coprolite works just fine for me. > > Way back in 1991 Martha and I visited the Green River > Formation area of SW Wyoming, Fossil Butte National Monument, > etc. We were in a rock shop near there, run by a coal miner > and his wife, when we heard the miner shout from the back of > the shop, "Honey, you should see the coprolite I found this > morning! It's so perfect! It even has squeeze marks!" > > His wife was totally embarrassed and said "I'm sorry, you'll > have to excuse him, he's just a coal miner!" Then my wife > said, "That's OK, I'm a coal miner's daughter" and I chipped > in with "My GrandDad was a miner, and my brother put himself > through college by mining for a couple of years." Which just > added to her embarrassment. It (her blush) was a beauty. > The copro was sweet too. > > Anyway, on to geology: I saw a photo of remnant skin of this > newly revealed beauty, and the scales were hexagonal and the > size of your thumbnail! > > The story had a quote to the effect that they could be sure > there were stripes in the skin, and mentioned that current > day scaled animules with stripes were usually brightly > colored. The skinks that skitter up my stucco everyday have > stripes, and they're neon irridescent! Imagine a > giantneon-blue-green-red irridescent 35-ton monster running > through the primeval forest with fernish trees thrashing one > way and the other. Imagine running yourself right behind > because A Carnivore was chasing the shiny giant!! > > It snowed here yesterday, then turned to rain in the evening > to create slush. Now it's 17 degrees F, way too cold for > slush to stay liquid. Oh, Joy, Winter is here! It didn't > even cover up the mud and leaves, so it looks like a white > wonderland covered with leaves and dirt. Yuck! > > Keep on rockin', where the ground ain't frozen! > > JR > > PS, There's a park called Dinosaur National Monument, with a > big dino quarry you can visit. There's over 20,000 bones on > the rock face, with a hadrosaur face 6 feet tall looking out > at you from the cryptozoic stone universe. I was so awed I > didn't even take photos for being stunned! Near Vernal UT, > and worth the trip (from anywhere! ) all by itself! If I had > seen that as a youth, my whole life would have been different! > > > > --------------------------------- > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! > Mobile. Try it now. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From mineral.maertens at att.net Thu Dec 6 09:52:32 2007 From: mineral.maertens at att.net (Johan) Date: Thu Dec 6 09:52:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Goldschmidt's Atlas in print Message-ID: <120620071752.15251.475836E00003A32600003B9322243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C020A9B9D0A0E03D2040E9D0A020703@att.net> I once made a copy. There is a LOT to copy if you wish so. Other option by mindat.org: Goldschmidt's Crystal Atlas on DVD Mindat.org are proud to offer, for the first time on DVD-ROM, the complete 9 volumes of Goldschmidt's Crystal Atlas, the classic reference work on mineralogy and crystallography. Provided as high-quality PDF scans, over 3000 pages and over 23,000 crystal drawings with descriptions (in german) - but the pictures speak for themselves, and you will find this reference invaluable for mineralogical study, mineral identification or crystallographical interest. The books are provided as 18 high-quality PDF files (two for each volume, one for the tables, one for the text), and duplicated again as individual PDF files for every page - for your convenience. You may print out copies of any part, or the whole book if you wish, for you and your friends. Reference: http://www.mindat.org/goldschmidt.php DISCLAIMER: I do neither have nor endorse this product. Information is shared for the benenfit of group. -- Johan Maertens From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 6 09:55:28 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Dec 6 09:55:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Microminerals from Sauktown Sales Message-ID: <871712.43058.qm@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Happy Holidays to all our friends! It's time for the monthly update to the price lists at www.sauktown.com Some of the highlights: On the regular list, there is Faujasite-Na from Hawaii, Heulandite from Nova Scotia, and Stilbite-Ca from an old New Jersey locality, Snake Hill (later renamed Laurel Hill by realtors). From the Dryer collection there is Macfallite, Emmonsite, Schmitterite, Clinoclase, Orthoserpierite, Ajoite and Gilalite. The Mounted list includes beta-Quartz from Oregon and Silver from Bolivia. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales www.sauktown.com --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kadok at infowest.com Thu Dec 6 10:02:22 2007 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Thu Dec 6 10:01:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blizzard Warning Posted for Hawaii In-Reply-To: <47577B1C.3C32@Tomaszewski.net> References: <47577B1C.3C32@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002301c83832$26902400$0200a8c0@kadok> Holy cow! Looks like Hawaii is really catching it from all sides! Margaret http://www.weather.gov/alerts/hi.html When we visited Kitty & Bill in Hawaii a few years ago, Bill showed us glacial striations on rocks near the summit of Mauna Kea. Greetings from wintery Michigan! Kreigh & Monica -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Dec 6 10:48:05 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Dec 6 10:48:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blizzard Warning Posted for Hawaii In-Reply-To: <002301c83832$26902400$0200a8c0@kadok> References: <47577B1C.3C32@Tomaszewski.net> <002301c83832$26902400$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <473E5FB00022494F@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Yep, there are not only those rocks, but as you drive across the saddle road between Mauna Kea and Mauna Loa you can see large gray areas on the upper slopes of Mauna Kea that are the remains of glacial moraines. The following paragraph is not on rocks, but Hawaii weather: Oahu got the worst of it yesterday---over 90 schools closed, winds to 60 MPH, the Pali highway closed, 62 roofs blown off homes, trees and power lines down, some places with 2" of rain an hour. Now its here over the Big Island and (as noted) there's a blizzard warning for the summit of Mauna Kea. We've had a lot of wind and rain at our house, but nothing alarming. The roof on our house has 14 tons of Hardy Shakes (made of a blend of materials that includes cement), and the beams are bolted together with thick steel plates, so we are probably safe. It's a bit troubling to see the kukui and monkeypod trees in our yard with their branches waving wildly; we hope they don't come down. Aloha, Kitty At 08:02 AM 12/6/2007, you wrote: >Holy cow! Looks like Hawaii is really catching it from all sides! >Margaret > >http://www.weather.gov/alerts/hi.html > >When we visited Kitty & Bill in Hawaii a few years ago, Bill showed us >glacial striations on rocks near the summit of Mauna Kea. > >Greetings from wintery Michigan! > >Kreigh & Monica > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 6 16:05:48 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 6 16:02:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hagar The Horrible goes rockhounding today Message-ID: <47588DA7.323E@Tomaszewski.net> http://www.arcamax.com/hagarthehorrible From kugeln at peoplepc.com Thu Dec 6 17:13:14 2007 From: kugeln at peoplepc.com (kugeln@peoplepc.com) Date: Thu Dec 6 17:13:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hagar The Horrible goes rockhounding today References: <47588DA7.323E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002901c8386e$58d9b5c0$53b55545@JOHN> Yes, I saw that. It may go with my collection of Larson and Norman Dog cartoons. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Hagar The Horrible goes rockhounding today > http://www.arcamax.com/hagarthehorrible > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From rockhounds at adelphia.net Thu Dec 6 18:30:28 2007 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (rockhounds@adelphia.net) Date: Thu Dec 6 18:30:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue Message-ID: <27257422.1196994628394.JavaMail.root@web37> Do we know what time the program will be on? Kelly ---- Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120202280.html?hpid=topnews > > > A high school student found a rare 'mummified' hadrosaur that includes > skin and muscles. Much of the fossil did not collapse. National > Geographic Channel will be airing a special on it Sunday according to > the news story. Watch out for the long link wrapping. > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From folmstead at rcn.com Thu Dec 6 19:03:25 2007 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Thu Dec 6 19:03:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue In-Reply-To: <27257422.1196994628394.JavaMail.root@web37> References: <27257422.1196994628394.JavaMail.root@web37> Message-ID: <4758B7FD.1090005@rcn.com> Time: 9 p.m. - east 8 p.m. - central GMO __..--..__.. rockhounds@adelphia.net wrote: >Do we know what time the program will be on? >Kelly >---- Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120202280.html?hpid=topnews >> >> >>A high school student found a rare 'mummified' hadrosaur that includes >>skin and muscles. Much of the fossil did not collapse. National >>Geographic Channel will be airing a special on it Sunday according to >>the news story. Watch out for the long link wrapping. >> >>Kreigh >> >>-- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 6 19:34:22 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 6 19:30:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue References: <27257422.1196994628394.JavaMail.root@web37> Message-ID: <4758BE6A.362E@Tomaszewski.net> Kelly, I don't have cable and will miss the program. My news story link included a link to the Geo Channel website (IIRC) where you should be able to find a schedule. Kreigh rockhounds@adelphia.net wrote: > > Do we know what time the program will be on? > Kelly > ---- Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120202280.html?hpid=topnews > > > > > > A high school student found a rare 'mummified' hadrosaur that includes > > skin and muscles. Much of the fossil did not collapse. National > > Geographic Channel will be airing a special on it Sunday according to > > the news story. Watch out for the long link wrapping. > > > > Kreigh > > From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Dec 6 19:31:14 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Dec 6 19:33:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur found with preserved soft tissue In-Reply-To: <27257422.1196994628394.JavaMail.root@web37> References: <27257422.1196994628394.JavaMail.root@web37> Message-ID: <200712070333.lB73XBiq031651@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Info here: http://www.mrfdigs.com/ At 06:30 PM 12/6/2007, you wrote: >Do we know what time the program will be on? >Kelly >---- Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/02/AR2007120202280.html?hpid=topnews > > > > > > A high school student found a rare 'mummified' hadrosaur that includes > > skin and muscles. Much of the fossil did not collapse. National > > Geographic Channel will be airing a special on it Sunday according to > > the news story. Watch out for the long link wrapping. > > > > Kreigh > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 21:29:51 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Thu Dec 6 21:29:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur National Monument Message-ID: For you folks, especially Kreigh and J.R. who are already snowed in and experiencing cabin fever, here is a link to a few pics Jeanette took in August 2004 at Dinosaur National Monument near Vernal, Utah. http://pawpawtiger.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!156E2AA3FBAB93F3!1011/ I was blown away and awestruck. The "wall" has been enclosed in an air conditioned building built around it right where God put it. The matrix is nearly vertical now and once was a stream bed. Almost complete dino fossils are being preserved there so that common ordinary people can walk right up to it and make first hand observations. (Visually, not physically, and they ask that you not touch the fossils which would eventually cause damage.) It is noted that there is now no scientific purpose to be served by excavating these since so many similar specimens have been collected already. BTW the National Geographic Channel is already showing clips of the recently discovered dino "mummy" on other paleo and related shows. Also speaking of snow, there was snow on Mauna Kea when we were there in May of 2001. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's FREE! http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Fri Dec 7 02:01:49 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Dec 7 02:02:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hagar The Horrible goes rockhounding today In-Reply-To: <47588DA7.323E@Tomaszewski.net> References: <47588DA7.323E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000d01c838b8$2f1a74a0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Well, you have to start your collection somewhere... Why not buy the specimens from a gorgeous, voluptuous sales lady? I know some guys that would rather hack away at a rock face for 10 hours straight or wade through 3 feet of mud for a pebble the size of your little toe. Yes, there are those too, sigh. Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Kreigh > Tomaszewski > Verzonden: vrijdag 7 december 2007 1:06 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] Hagar The Horrible goes rockhounding today > > http://www.arcamax.com/hagarthehorrible > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From codeburner at gmail.com Fri Dec 7 05:28:07 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Fri Dec 7 05:28:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur National Monument In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it open again? They closed the museum quite awhile ago because of structural defects and didn't seem to have any idea when they were going to open it again. It was closed this summer anyway. BK On Dec 7, 2007 12:29 AM, Glenn Wimpee wrote: > For you folks, especially Kreigh and J.R. who are already snowed in and > experiencing cabin fever, here is a link to a few pics Jeanette took in > August 2004 at Dinosaur National Monument near Vernal, Utah. > > http://pawpawtiger.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!156E2AA3FBAB93F3!1011/ > > I was blown away and awestruck. The "wall" has been enclosed in an air > conditioned building built around it right where God put it. The matrix is > nearly vertical now and once was a stream bed. Almost complete dino fossils > are being preserved there so that common ordinary people can walk right up > to it and make first hand observations. (Visually, not physically, and they > ask that you not touch the fossils which would eventually cause damage.) It > is noted that there is now no scientific purpose to be served by excavating > these since so many similar specimens have been collected already. > > BTW the National Geographic Channel is already showing clips of the > recently discovered dino "mummy" on other paleo and related shows. > > Also speaking of snow, there was snow on Mauna Kea when we were there in > May of 2001. > > Glenn > _________________________________________________________________ > Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live.Download today it's > FREE! > > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_sharelife_112007 > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Fri Dec 7 06:37:59 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Fri Dec 7 06:39:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur National Monument References: Message-ID: <002601c838de$c7c8cd20$0200a8c0@Notebook> Thanks for the pics Glenn. I especially like the "Hi! My name is Allosaurus Jimmadsensi." I can just imagine this monster at a cocktail party trying to pick up babes. Re: Snowed in - I just got an email from a friend in Virginia who is laughing about their "Deadly Winter Storm" with all of 2" of snow. We're at 14" and counting here in north Idaho. You don't really get cabin fever until it hits the 6 foot mark in January! Then there's that last flurry in May.... Gonna be a long winter. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Wimpee" For you folks, especially Kreigh and J.R. who are already snowed in and experiencing cabin fever, here is a link to a few pics Jeanette took in August 2004 at Dinosaur National Monument near Vernal, Utah. http://pawpawtiger.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!156E2AA3FBAB93F3!1011/ I was blown away and awestruck. The "wall" has been enclosed in an air conditioned building built around it right where God put it. The matrix is nearly vertical now and once was a stream bed. Almost complete dino fossils are being preserved there so that common ordinary people can walk right up to it and make first hand observations. (Visually, not physically, and they ask that you not touch the fossils which would eventually cause damage.) It is noted that there is now no scientific purpose to be served by excavating these since so many similar specimens have been collected already. BTW the National Geographic Channel is already showing clips of the recently discovered dino "mummy" on other paleo and related shows. Also speaking of snow, there was snow on Mauna Kea when we were there in May of 2001. Glenn From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 06:40:24 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Fri Dec 7 06:40:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hagar The Horrible goes rockhounding today In-Reply-To: <47588DA7.323E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <387641.63387.qm@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> THe link takes you to the current cartoon. You have to click on "previous" below that cartoon to get back to the one for Dec. 6 that Kreigh refers to. Jim Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: http://www.arcamax.com/hagarthehorrible -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 7 09:25:51 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 7 09:26:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur National Monument In-Reply-To: <002601c838de$c7c8cd20$0200a8c0@Notebook> References: <002601c838de$c7c8cd20$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <200712071725.lB7HPwTS024955@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Just remember not to park under the eaves on a a sunny afternoon! I had the bed of my Courier pickup completely filled with snow in McCall one February parked right under the eaves of the FS building there! I think they said they had 6' on the ground. As you might imagine, a full load of wet snow doesn't exactly make a Courier driveable lol. At 06:37 AM 12/7/2007, you wrote: >Thanks for the pics Glenn. I especially like the "Hi! My name is >Allosaurus Jimmadsensi." I can just imagine this monster at a >cocktail party trying to pick up babes. > >Re: Snowed in - I just got an email from a friend in Virginia who is >laughing about their "Deadly Winter Storm" with all of 2" of snow. >We're at 14" and counting here in north Idaho. You don't really get >cabin fever until it hits the 6 foot mark in January! Then there's >that last flurry in May.... Gonna be a long winter. > >John Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From rgangue at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 15:22:44 2007 From: rgangue at yahoo.com (Stan Perry) Date: Fri Dec 7 15:22:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Rockhound Books for sale Message-ID: <320501.33165.qm@web54205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi All, Need a perfect gift for the Rockhound this year. I was able to pick up a few great reference books from an Estate recently and wanted to offer them to the list members first. I will also offer list members 10% off the purchase of two books or 20% off the purchase of 4 or more. Here is the listing of the new books and magazines; The Book of Agates - Hardcover Publisher: Chilton Book Company, Pennsylvania, 1963 with Dust Jacket. Maroon cloth over boards with gilt title on front and spine. No names or marks on interior. 232 pp with many photographs throughout. Book is clean, square and tight two tears to the dust jacket. $20 The Agates of North America - Softcover Publisher: The Lapidary Journal, 1968 Very good condition Publisher: The Lapidary Journal Date of Publication: 1968 Binding: Trade Paperback Edition: Later Printing Condition $20 Quartz Family Minerals - Hardcover Publisher: 1938, 3rd Printing. Cloth, good with some edgewear to cover boards top and bottom. Pages tight and straight. Although written over 65 years ago, this work is still one of the best ever written on quartz and agate. A must for the collector. $15 Amber The Golden Gem of the Ages - Softcover, Publisher: Kosciuszko Foundation, 1987 Kosciuszko Foundation, 1987. 2rd Print ed. Illustrated. Very Good condition. $20 Fossils Magazine Vol. 1 No. 1 - Wexo Publishing Company 1976 Very Good. First and only? Issue 116 p. Includes illustrations. Several illustrated articles including: "Collecting Trilobites in North America, Part One: The East; " "Localities For Collecting Trilobites in Eastern North America; " "Cretaceous Fossils at Lake Worth; " $15 Minerals and Rocks ? Hardcover, Hanover House Garden City, NY 1959 ... 4vo., 97 pp., Dj has tiny tear; ownership B&W and color photographs Cloth Profusely illustrated. Good condition. $12 The Fabulous Keokuk Geodes Vol. 1 - Hardcover, I Publisher: Wallace-Homestead Book Co, 1980 Mint condition Apparently all that was published was volume 1 - Book: FINE text is immaculate as is fold-out US Geological Survey map bound in rear. Dust Jacket; VERY GOOD; mild shelf/edge wear. This is the most comprehensive study of the Keokuk type geodes found. $125 Prospecting for Gemstones and Minerals ? Sinkankas - Softcover, Publisher: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1974 Good condition Light Reading Wear, a few loose pages reflected in price. Great Reference work by the master. $10 Appalachian Mineral and Gem Trails - Softcover Publisher: Lapidary Journal 1969 Great reference illustrated w/over 100 photo.& maps 134p tall Good Condition. $15 Mineral Digest magazines - Unsurpassed in quality and color fidelity of any mineral magazine produced. It went out of business after 8 issues because it was losing money. The magazine pages tended to get loose and there are some in two issues in the group but they are in very good to excellent physical condition. This set of four includes Volume 3, 6, 7, and 8. all four for $50 If you would like to add any additional books to reach the pricing discounts take a look at my book webpage at http://www.emineralshow.com/books.htm Cheers, Stan Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From stu at arcrystalmine.com Fri Dec 7 16:35:12 2007 From: stu at arcrystalmine.com (Stu Schmitt) Date: Fri Dec 7 16:37:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another cleaning question References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com><06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <00f001c83932$32396770$6500a8c0@STU2> I know how to clean bulk quartz crystals using oxalic or muratic acid. Will the same process work on Jeffrey quarry solution quartz with cookeite on it....or will the acid remove the cookeite? Your recommendations will be appreciated. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Clear Creek Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From Pmodreski at aol.com Fri Dec 7 18:41:39 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 7 18:42:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur National Monument Message-ID: Those are neat pictures from Dino Nat Mon, Glenn & Jeanette. I especially like the one of the dinosaur--I think it is #6 of yours--that look's like it's prancing and dancing. (I realize that in reality, the curved-back back is probably from the way they curl up as the corpse dehydrates & shrinks. Not sure I can identify what kind of dino this is--but it sure looks like it's feet are just doing a lively jig. **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest products. (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Dec 7 19:21:05 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Dec 7 19:20:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Dinosaur National Monument In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <475A0DA1.5070408@verizon.net> Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > (I realize that in reality, the > curved-back back is probably from the way they curl up as the corpse dehydrates & > shrinks. Here's a good one: there was a recent paper published that makes a very compelling case that the opisthotonic posture (i.e., curled backward) is due to illness before death, not post-mortem contraction. The author came to visit during our seminar series and showed us a number of examples and explained the reasons why this could not be a post-mortem phenomenon. She is a veterinarian, not a paleontologist, so her paper was based on her considerable experience with dead and dying animals as well as a number of experiments she performed on birds (much to the dismay of her husband, who disliked the stench of rotting bird carcasses in the garage). http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1666%2F06015.1&ct=1&SESSID=4a3f752c3590e1cfc4e3dd93dcd25e1b She made quite a believer out of everyone in the audience. By the way, this phenomenon also occurs in humans who have thiamine deficiency, and it is a disturbing sight (she showed a photo). Almost as disturbing was a photo of a live chicken with this affliction. best, Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Dec 7 21:30:29 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Dec 7 21:23:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another cleaning question References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com><06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook> <00f001c83932$32396770$6500a8c0@STU2> Message-ID: <475A2A42.6303@Tomaszewski.net> Stu Schmitt wrote: > > I know how to clean bulk quartz crystals using oxalic or muratic acid. Will > the same process work on Jeffrey quarry solution quartz with cookeite on > it....or will the acid remove the cookeite? Your recommendations will be > appreciated. > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Clear Creek Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > Stu, Rummage thru what you collected/acquired for a small chunk that probably is leaverite or damaged and give it a try. The bulk process scales down to using a few drops of acid on an obscure spot so the damage is minimal if it doesn't work as expected. I have several purchased specimens of solution quartz from the Jeffrey Quarry that were obviously cleaned. None of them show any sign of cookeite. My guess is that the traditional cleaning methods for quartz will remove the cookeite. I also have a specimen of quartz with cookeite from the Huaron Mines in Peru that also appears to have been cleaned. I suspect the cleaning was interrupted, leaving beautiful quartz points sticking out of the remaining cookeite and quartz core. The secret may be small batches and timing. Hope this helps. Let us know how it comes out. Kreigh From jogs at tucsongemfair.com Sat Dec 8 02:13:01 2007 From: jogs at tucsongemfair.com (JOGS International Exhibits) Date: Sat Dec 8 09:15:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem Show Invitation Message-ID: <20071208041258.66FAD63C691413FF@tucsongemfair.com> JOGS Gem and Jewelry Show 2008 at Tucson Expo Center J.O.G.S. Gem and Jewelry Show offers a unique, once a year opportunity to see, touch, and buy everything that pertains to the Gem and Jewelry World, from rough to polished, from findings to finished, J.O.G.S. is your one stop location to find the most rare, exceptional, and sought after product from all over the world - all this under one roof!... You received this advertisement from J.O.G.S. International Exhibits. If you do not want to receive further commercial mailings, please use this link to unsubscribe. J.O.G.S. International Exhibits 650 South Hill St., Suite 612-613, Los Angeles, CA 90014 Tel: (213) 629 3030 | Fax: (213) 629 3434 www.jogsshow.com | info@jogsshow.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/related multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html image/jpeg image/jpeg image/gif image/jpeg image/jpeg image/jpeg image/jpeg --- From timeman123 at optonline.net Sat Dec 8 11:34:31 2007 From: timeman123 at optonline.net (ROBERT A SANTEE) Date: Sat Dec 8 11:34:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables Message-ID: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> Hi everybody can anybody tell me were i can download free lables for my rock collection thanks. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 8 12:59:47 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sat Dec 8 12:59:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables In-Reply-To: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> Message-ID: <211970.87612.qm@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There are labels on webmineral.com that can be printed. I made my own template in Microsoft Excel. It will make 28 sets of labels for micromount boxes (top & bottom labels) on a single sheet. I print on peel-and-stick label stock with each sheet a single label (Avery 8165) and then cut out the individual labels. I'd be glad to send you a copy of the template off-list. Jim Daly ROBERT A SANTEE wrote: Hi everybody can anybody tell me were i can download free lables for my rock collection thanks. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 8 13:22:08 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sat Dec 8 13:22:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables References: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> Message-ID: <003a01c839e0$63c9b480$0201a8c0@LarryRush> Robert: Most collectors make their own. OSO Minerals (George Campbell) used to sell a label maker, but I don't know if he is still active. I can send you templates for labels in Word and Publisher, to be printed on heavy paper. What size do you use? Larry Rush ================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROBERT A SANTEE" To: Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:34 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] lables > Hi everybody can anybody tell me were i can download free lables for my > rock collection thanks. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From ajs at frii.com Sat Dec 8 14:50:47 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Sat Dec 8 14:50:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Sleeping in bad places In-Reply-To: <002401c832d2$58c07cf0$0200a8c0@kadok> Message-ID: <20071208225047.39C581CC35@io.frii.com> Oh yeah! I just remembered the night I spent alone near Cisco, I think it was, in eastern Utah, some years ago. Lotsa rocks (Morrison formation), not much interesting though. I arrived after dark, parked off the road on a desert flat, and laid out next to the car. All night long I heard sheep bleating around me... In the morning I woke up to see three guys on horseback off a ways looking in my direction, but without a lot of interest -- never talked with them. I also saw a lot of sheep. AND, there were placentas scattered about on the ground. Some of the sheep had been giving birth overnight! Cheers, Alan Silverstein From rockcurrier at cs.com Sat Dec 8 18:42:28 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Sat Dec 8 18:39:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 43, Issue 9 References: <200712090202.lB921niZ013524@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <00d401c83a0d$23cf6780$6901a8c0@rock3> Steward asked: I know how to clean bulk quartz crystals using oxalic or muratic acid. Will the same process work on Jeffrey quarry solution quartz with cookeite on it....or will the acid remove the cookeite? Your recommendations will be appreciated. First of all, are you sure it is cookeitt on the quartz from the Jeffery Quarry?. If I remember correctly, the typical association is ankerite, a carbonate mineral. Cookeite is a mica and not usually found associated with quartz from sandstones, like those found in Arkansas. Take a bit of the "cookeite", crush it to a powder and put a drop of hydrochloric acid on it. If it bubbles, then it is not cokeite and cleaning the specimens with oxalic or hydrochloric acids will remove or alter the "cookeite". If it is cookeite, acids will not hurt it very much, but if you don't neutralize the acid after cleaning you may turn the cookeite yellow with iron oxalate or iron chloride. Are you trying to remove iron staining from the specimen? You may wish to consider the use of Iron Out or Super Iron Out, which is a commercial cleaning product sold in stores like Wal-Mart. It is sold in gallon containers and is a fine powder that you pour out into water, following the instructions on the container. Soak your specimen in that solution and the iron stain should go away. This solution will not hurt any calcite or other carbonate minerals on the specimen. The solution is almost PH neutral and very easy on delicate minerals, even things like hemimorphite that even weak acids will damage or destroy. Rock From rockcurrier at cs.com Sat Dec 8 19:33:08 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Sat Dec 8 19:30:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Lables for your specimens References: <200712090202.lB921niZ013524@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <00ec01c83a14$3835dc70$6901a8c0@rock3> Robert said, Hi everybody can anybody tell me were i can download free lables for my rock collection thanks. Robert, is your collection a rock collection or a mineral collection? Do you have any existing labels with the specimens? If not, do you know what minerals are on your specimens? Without knowing what minerals you have on your specimens, downloading labels will not do you much good as you will just be guessing what should be on the labels. Do you know the minerals, but need help with the localities? Assuming you know the minerals and the localities, I would recommend you make up your own labels. Make something distinctive and detailed with you name on the label. It will add value to the specimens if you do it well. If you would like some ideas of labels others have made for their specimens go to the Mineralogical Record website, and find their on line label archive. It is the most extensive in existence and will give you hundreds if not thousands of good examples. If you need help matching localities to your specimens, use the mindat.org online database. At the bottom of the main page, type in the name of the mineral and click on search. When the data on that mineral comes up, click on the link that will show you photos of all the pictures of that mineral that are in the database. Probably better than 90% of the time you will find specimens just like yours in the database. Then you will know what the locality for your specimen is. Rock Rock From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Dec 8 20:55:56 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Dec 8 20:45:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables References: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> <003a01c839e0$63c9b480$0201a8c0@LarryRush> Message-ID: <475B72E2.3F64@Tomaszewski.net> Robert, Forget downloading labels. Make your own. Fire up your favorite word processor. Make a label for 'Leaverite' from 'Anywhere, Any State, USA'. Make up descriptive details for any other attributes you want on the label (like specimen #, formula, when collected, etc.) and add them. Don't forget to Save. Add optional border and/or your name. Play with the fonts. Format and size it until it looks right. Print a sample on thick paper, cut it out, and try it with some random specimens from your collection. When you are happy, change your page format to columns as wide as your label. Select and Copy the label. Paste the label until you have filled the first page, and reach the second column on the second page. Play with your margins and see if you can get more labels on the page. Play with the bottom and top margins so you don't spread any label between columns. Try both portrait and landscape formats to see which gives you more labels. Finally, delete the second page, and save it as something like 'LabelTemplate'. When you need to make labels, open a New file/document in your word processor, Import the 'LabelTemplate' file (to make sure it never gets changed), and replace the made up data with information about your actual specimens. Print on your label stock (thick paper, stick on labels, or whatever you like) -- the more labels on a page you can do at once, the less pages of label/paper stock you use. Cut/Trim each sheet with a paper cutter or scissors. You got labels. It is easy after the first one. Kreigh ROBERT A SANTEE wrote: > > Hi everybody can anybody tell me were i can download free lables for my > rock collection thanks. From albalmer at att.net Sun Dec 9 08:34:33 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Sun Dec 9 08:34:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables In-Reply-To: <475B72E2.3F64@Tomaszewski.net> References: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> <003a01c839e0$63c9b480$0201a8c0@LarryRush> <475B72E2.3F64@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 23:55:56 -0500, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >Robert, > >Forget downloading labels. Make your own. > >Fire up your favorite word processor. Make a label for 'Leaverite' from >'Anywhere, Any State, USA'. Make up descriptive details for any other >attributes you want on the label (like specimen #, formula, when >collected, etc.) and add them. Don't forget to Save. Add optional >border and/or your name. Play with the fonts. Format and size it until >it looks right. Print a sample on thick paper, cut it out, and try it >with some random specimens from your collection. > >When you are happy, change your page format to columns as wide as your >label. Select and Copy the label. Paste the label until you have filled >the first page, and reach the second column on the second page. Play >with your margins and see if you can get more labels on the page. Play >with the bottom and top margins so you don't spread any label between >columns. Try both portrait and landscape formats to see which gives you >more labels. Finally, delete the second page, and save it as something >like 'LabelTemplate'. Most word processors have many label formats built in, eliminating the need to experiment and adjust. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From rutile1 at carolina.rr.com Sun Dec 9 09:42:18 2007 From: rutile1 at carolina.rr.com (Todd Hamrick) Date: Sun Dec 9 09:42:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables In-Reply-To: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> References: <000601c839d1$5b830380$8b9efea9@ownerfbau59hmu> Message-ID: <475C28FA.8030107@carolina.rr.com> Robert, Here is an URL to George Campbell's software if interested. Todd http://www.osomin.com/ml4xp.htm From stu at arcrystalmine.com Sun Dec 9 13:00:40 2007 From: stu at arcrystalmine.com (Stu Schmitt) Date: Sun Dec 9 13:02:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Another cleaning question References: <001601c83565$a5e95340$28fff604@TheBlackAdder><069e01c8356b$3fdbee90$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><200712030811.lB38Bdpm027201@bubbleator.drizzle.com><06cf01c83601$d6517930$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <00aa01c83616$75342070$0200a8c0@Notebook><00f001c83932$32396770$6500a8c0@STU2> <475A2A42.6303@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002301c83aa6$8e6a1c40$6500a8c0@STU2> I put a small pices of solution quartz with a lot of cookeite on it in a batch of crystals I heated in oxalic acid. The acid turned the cookeite in to mush. I suppose there is a better geological term than mush, but that's what it looked like to me. Don't do it! Might try Ironout overnight. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Clear Creek Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Another cleaning question > Stu Schmitt wrote: >> >> I know how to clean bulk quartz crystals using oxalic or muratic acid. >> Will >> the same process work on Jeffrey quarry solution quartz with cookeite on >> it....or will the acid remove the cookeite? Your recommendations will be >> appreciated. >> >> With appreciation & gratitude, >> Stuart Schmitt >> Clear Creek Crystal Mine >> www.arcrystalmine.com >> 60 Mary's Eagle Trail >> Mount Ida, AR 71957 >> (870) 867-2443 >> > > Stu, > > Rummage thru what you collected/acquired for a small chunk that probably > is leaverite or damaged and give it a try. The bulk process scales down > to using a few drops of acid on an obscure spot so the damage is minimal > if it doesn't work as expected. > > I have several purchased specimens of solution quartz from the Jeffrey > Quarry that were obviously cleaned. None of them show any sign of > cookeite. My guess is that the traditional cleaning methods for quartz > will remove the cookeite. > > I also have a specimen of quartz with cookeite from the Huaron Mines in > Peru that also appears to have been cleaned. I suspect the cleaning was > interrupted, leaving beautiful quartz points sticking out of the > remaining cookeite and quartz core. The secret may be small batches and > timing. > > Hope this helps. Let us know how it comes out. > > Kreigh From ajs at frii.com Sun Dec 9 13:46:45 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Sun Dec 9 13:46:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Accommodations, petrified forest In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071129204757.02324970@nist.gov> Message-ID: <20071209214645.AD9BC1CC35@io.frii.com> (Catching up on my email backlog...) > At the meeting he showed the rock, still in it's plastic bag, sealed > with a piece of official government red tape. Seems weird, but I've done this myself -- entered Petrified Forest NP with petrified wood already collected elsewhere -- and it's a sane policy, really. You declare your goodies on the way in, they seal them in bags, and then you shouldn't run into any trouble on the way out. I've done a lot of map study and sleuthing in the area outside the park. The BLM sections are scattered and mostly hard to reach, and the locals are fed up with people trying to collect on their property. Compared, say, with Wyoming, looking up a landowner and politely requesting permission to collect on their private property, gets a resounding NO. Also I learned that AZ "state sections" set aside for school support are very much off-limits. No way to get a permit for casual surface collecting. What a pity. Of course you/I could buy all the AZ pet wood we wanted in places like Holbrook, but it's not about the having, it's about the fun of collecting... I have found a few places where scraps of nice wood can be found, and apparently legally too. It does occur over a very wide area -- many miles -- but can be "occasional". Cheers, Alan Silverstein From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Dec 9 14:16:21 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Dec 9 14:16:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Accommodations, petrified forest In-Reply-To: <20071209214645.AD9BC1CC35@io.frii.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20071129204757.02324970@nist.gov> <20071209214645.AD9BC1CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <200712092216.lB9MGeK4012265@bubbleator.drizzle.com> But one does occasionally get lucky. In my story I mentioned the Murphys, out of Winslow across the freeway from the south entrance, who did at one time allow fee collecting. They had their own "forest" of quite a few nice logs that were "off limits" (they didn't realize that many times more logs were buried just under the surface of the soil lol). A friend from Apache Junction collected and sold a few thousand pounds from there for lapidary & yard rock. I still have a few of the larger rounds we dug. So it pays to ask local rockhounds (OK so Apache Jct. ain't exactly local lol). Most of the shops in Holbrook have leases on "state land" or on private ranches (You are correct; AZ mineral rights are bizarre, and the ranchers can own the land but NOT the mineral rights unless they were transferred from the state with the property title). It is the landowners' right to limit access to "landlocked" BLM sections as the see fit, so I am not surprised there. I am certain that the Murphys did NOT own the mineral rights but the state isn't exactly knocking down doors looking for locals selling wood that they don't really own. You should be aware that most everyone out there is Mormon and they aren't really all that friendly to outsiders, or the "gummint", especially since the residents of the four corners area are notorious for sheltering polygamists among them. I was once offered the opportunity to collect with the Grays (big shop in Holbrook) on one of their leases (for a fee of course) but I couldn't stick around and wait for them to go out & dig. So any one of the shops might help you out there. Stewart's in Holbrook used to have fee digs but I haven't heard of anyone actually going out digging with them for many years. P.S. I swear to this day that I smelled a white lightnin' still at the Murphys in a dilapidated corn silo ;) At 01:46 PM 12/9/2007, you wrote: >(Catching up on my email backlog...) > > > At the meeting he showed the rock, still in it's plastic bag, sealed > > with a piece of official government red tape. > >Seems weird, but I've done this myself -- entered Petrified Forest NP >with petrified wood already collected elsewhere -- and it's a sane >policy, really. You declare your goodies on the way in, they seal them >in bags, and then you shouldn't run into any trouble on the way out. > >I've done a lot of map study and sleuthing in the area outside the park. >The BLM sections are scattered and mostly hard to reach, and the locals >are fed up with people trying to collect on their property. Compared, >say, with Wyoming, looking up a landowner and politely requesting >permission to collect on their private property, gets a resounding NO. > >Also I learned that AZ "state sections" set aside for school support are >very much off-limits. No way to get a permit for casual surface >collecting. What a pity. > >Of course you/I could buy all the AZ pet wood we wanted in places like >Holbrook, but it's not about the having, it's about the fun of >collecting... > >I have found a few places where scraps of nice wood can be found, and >apparently legally too. It does occur over a very wide area -- many >miles -- but can be "occasional". > >Cheers, >Alan Silverstein >-- >_______________________________________________ Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From magnet at crocoite.com Mon Dec 10 00:38:42 2007 From: magnet at crocoite.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?magnet?=) Date: Mon Dec 10 00:38:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lables Message-ID: <20071210083842.16814.qmail@webmachine101.com> Hi Robert If you have Avery labels to print on, you can get a template for the particular label item number from their website. Regards Steve Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/ From libawc at emory.edu Mon Dec 10 06:08:41 2007 From: libawc at emory.edu (Anita D. Westlake) Date: Mon Dec 10 06:09:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Rockhound Books for sale In-Reply-To: <320501.33165.qm@web54205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <320501.33165.qm@web54205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e001c83b36$2b295160$817bf420$@edu> Hi Stan: Are the book all gone? I'm interested in "The Book of Agates" and "The Agates of North America". Anita -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Stan Perry Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 6:23 PM To: rocksandfossils@yahoogroups.com; rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com; micromounts@yahoogroups.com; mineralcollecting@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Rockhound Books for sale Hi All, Need a perfect gift for the Rockhound this year. I was able to pick up a few great reference books from an Estate recently and wanted to offer them to the list members first. I will also offer list members 10% off the purchase of two books or 20% off the purchase of 4 or more. Here is the listing of the new books and magazines; The Book of Agates - Hardcover Publisher: Chilton Book Company, Pennsylvania, 1963 with Dust Jacket. Maroon cloth over boards with gilt title on front and spine. No names or marks on interior. 232 pp with many photographs throughout. Book is clean, square and tight two tears to the dust jacket. $20 The Agates of North America - Softcover Publisher: The Lapidary Journal, 1968 Very good condition Publisher: The Lapidary Journal Date of Publication: 1968 Binding: Trade Paperback Edition: Later Printing Condition $20 Quartz Family Minerals - Hardcover Publisher: 1938, 3rd Printing. Cloth, good with some edgewear to cover boards top and bottom. Pages tight and straight. Although written over 65 years ago, this work is still one of the best ever written on quartz and agate. A must for the collector. $15 Amber The Golden Gem of the Ages - Softcover, Publisher: Kosciuszko Foundation, 1987 Kosciuszko Foundation, 1987. 2rd Print ed. Illustrated. Very Good condition. $20 Fossils Magazine Vol. 1 No. 1 - Wexo Publishing Company 1976 Very Good. First and only? Issue 116 p. Includes illustrations. Several illustrated articles including: "Collecting Trilobites in North America, Part One: The East; " "Localities For Collecting Trilobites in Eastern North America; " "Cretaceous Fossils at Lake Worth; " $15 Minerals and Rocks - Hardcover, Hanover House Garden City, NY 1959 ... 4vo., 97 pp., Dj has tiny tear; ownership B&W and color photographs Cloth Profusely illustrated. Good condition. $12 The Fabulous Keokuk Geodes Vol. 1 - Hardcover, I Publisher: Wallace-Homestead Book Co, 1980 Mint condition Apparently all that was published was volume 1 - Book: FINE text is immaculate as is fold-out US Geological Survey map bound in rear. Dust Jacket; VERY GOOD; mild shelf/edge wear. This is the most comprehensive study of the Keokuk type geodes found. $125 Prospecting for Gemstones and Minerals - Sinkankas - Softcover, Publisher: Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1974 Good condition Light Reading Wear, a few loose pages reflected in price. Great Reference work by the master. $10 Appalachian Mineral and Gem Trails - Softcover Publisher: Lapidary Journal 1969 Great reference illustrated w/over 100 photo.& maps 134p tall Good Condition. $15 Mineral Digest magazines - Unsurpassed in quality and color fidelity of any mineral magazine produced. It went out of business after 8 issues because it was losing money. The magazine pages tended to get loose and there are some in two issues in the group but they are in very good to excellent physical condition. This set of four includes Volume 3, 6, 7, and 8. all four for $50 If you would like to add any additional books to reach the pricing discounts take a look at my book webpage at http://www.emineralshow.com/books.htm Cheers, Stan Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From timeman123 at optonline.net Mon Dec 10 11:52:46 2007 From: timeman123 at optonline.net (ROBERT A SANTEE) Date: Mon Dec 10 11:53:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] labels Message-ID: <002601c83b66$3c616d20$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> I want to thank every body for that label info I went to word and received all my labels that I wanted thanks again bob. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lavenderfish at cox.net Mon Dec 10 20:03:27 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Mon Dec 10 20:03:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] yellow obsidian Message-ID: <0c4401c83baa$c9bd13b0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Just saw a slab of yellow obsidian in the cabbing materials listed on ebay. I know obsidian can be blue, pink, green, rainbow, purple velvet, mahogany, fire obsidian (awesome stuff!) and probably a few others, but haven't ever heard of yellow. Is that for real? Carol, taking a break from smoothing a silky aquamarine carving & I sure like the stuff! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Mon Dec 10 20:49:38 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Mon Dec 10 20:51:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> Trying again Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: Horst Windisch To: rockhounds@drizzle.com Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 2:43 PM Subject: Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Trying again ----- Original Message ----- From: Horst Windisch To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 2:54 PM Subject: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Hi List, Is anybody aware of a software programme that could be used to identify minerals (without having the possibility of an extensive lab)? Hardness, colour, streak, effervescence, etc can be checked reasonably easy,. but XRD etc are beyond the means of a lot of collectors. Regards, Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Dec 10 21:54:14 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Dec 10 21:54:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> Message-ID: <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> Hi Horst, Having contributed to two recently published books on mineralogy, I can tell you that software for determinative mineralogy won't always get you far, depending on the type of minerals you are trying to identify, and how exact you want the ID to be; e.g., will you be satisfied with the group name (e.g., apatite) or do you need to know the exact species within the group. Also, will you be satisfied with 5 or 6 minerals it could be or do you absolutely need to know the exact mineral. I think you are someone who collects micromounts and rare species. As you probably know, there are well over 4,000 valid species and thousands of varieties; many of these will be very difficult to identify. In Geology 101, we give the students a tray of minerals to ID by color, streak, hardness, cleavage, luster, etc. These are all unique and are all common rock-forming minerals. In mineralogy lab, the first day, they do the same exercise, except a few of the minerals are very similar and cannot be identified by determinative properties. Then we introduce them to refractive index, relief, pleochroism, optic class, etc., by which they can identify many more minerals. After that we give them an exercise in which they can identify 6 out of 8 mineral grains--assuming they have been paying attention--but the last two have such similar optical properties that they can't be identified with certainty. After that they learn the principles of EDS, XRD, etc. This book recently published by the Mineralogical Record contains a lot of information on how to ID minerals at home. http://www.minrec.org/bookdetail.asp?id=48 (I contributed to the book but receive no compensation for sales). The book does have a disk with useful software on it, but the reader still needs to do some analytical work in the kitchen first. Color is a very variable property, and many silicate minerals have a colorless streak. However, specific gravity and optical properties add far more value to the ID process. The book gives instructions on how to obtain those values, at least to 1 or 2 decimal places. There are plenty of minerals that require multiple advanced analytical techniques to ID. For example, telling apart all the amphiboles requires both chemistry and structure, and then there is still some interpretation and assumption involved (one reason being that electron beam instruments can't measure (OH-), so it must be assumed by difference). Some of them are distinctive, but many are not, and it would be fruitless to try to positively identify all the amphiboles by simple determinative techniques. On a similar note, I recently analyzed eight samples of fluorescent apatites from Franklin & Sterling Hill, NJ. All but one were mixed phosphate/arsenate apatites, and I expected at least 2 or 3 of them to be the same, but they were all different. The microprobe operator had a fit when I asked him to configure a scan for zinc and lead in addition to the usual suspects, and asked me three times if I was sure there was significant arsenic (I finally had to show him the Franklin & Sterling Hill apatites in the Handbook of Mineralogy to prove they really exist). When all was done, I was getting about 95-98% weight totals, which I usually don't accept as valid, but in this case it means that 2-5 weight% of the specimens were elements for which we didn't even analyze. After he corrected the data for drift and ran the results through the microprobe software, the printout gave an identity for a mineral I've never heard about. The calculated stoichiometry was so bad that it simply cannot exist in this manifestation of the universe. I have to resort to doing the calculations by hand. In the end, I can provide a first-order approximation of which 2 or 3 specific minerals each one might be, but until I get some help from someone who is familiar with analyzing these species (after all, I'm still a student, and these are somewhat difficult), I refuse to try to assign a positive ID. Yet you will find any number of people who would look at these, squint, rub their chin, hold a finger in the air, and declare a definite identity. The most difficult thing for a collector or geologist to say is "I have no idea," but ironically it is the phrase that should be uttered more than any other. Sometimes you just can't tell without instrument analysis, and sometimes, not even then. Okay, back to the question at hand: how much dirty work are you willing to do on the specimen, and how willing are you to accept uncertain results? Fondly yours, Don From rockhounds at adelphia.net Mon Dec 10 22:02:41 2007 From: rockhounds at adelphia.net (rockhounds@adelphia.net) Date: Mon Dec 10 22:02:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] yellow obsidian Message-ID: <30793312.1197352961481.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.adelphia.net> I have seen Pumpkin from Oregon as in pumpkin pie color Kelly ---- Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: > Just saw a slab of yellow obsidian in the cabbing materials listed on ebay. I know obsidian can be blue, pink, green, rainbow, purple velvet, mahogany, fire obsidian (awesome stuff!) and probably a few others, but haven't ever heard of yellow. Is that for real? > > Carol, taking a break from smoothing a silky aquamarine carving & I sure like the stuff! > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kcbaran at arczip.com Mon Dec 10 23:21:08 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Mon Dec 10 23:27:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] yellow obsidian In-Reply-To: <30793312.1197352961481.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.adelphia.net> References: <30793312.1197352961481.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <475E3A64.7070106@arczip.com> Kelly: Where in Oregon? If on Glass Butte, which area of the butte, if you don't mind me asking. Thanks and Merry Christmas. Chuck... rockhounds@adelphia.net wrote: >I have seen Pumpkin from Oregon as in pumpkin pie color >Kelly >---- Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: > > >>Just saw a slab of yellow obsidian in the cabbing materials listed on ebay. I know obsidian can be blue, pink, green, rainbow, purple velvet, mahogany, fire obsidian (awesome stuff!) and probably a few others, but haven't ever heard of yellow. Is that for real? >> >>Carol, taking a break from smoothing a silky aquamarine carving & I sure like the stuff! >> >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >>-- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Tue Dec 11 05:16:16 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Tue Dec 11 05:16:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> Hi all, I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored amethyst and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the pseudobrookite I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can you give me a more detailed location? Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it into your web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that the Thomas Range is not in Ohio.... Thanks! Pete Richards From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Dec 11 07:26:28 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Dec 11 07:30:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] yellow obsidian In-Reply-To: <30793312.1197352961481.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.adelphia.n et> References: <30793312.1197352961481.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200712111526.lBBFQXEe008074@bubbleator.drizzle.com> "Pumpkin" would be Glass Buttes mahogany obsidian. More of a rust color than true pumpkin orange. The names people come up with...and the yellow, if it is really yellow and not orangeish-brown, is most likely "art glass". The other colors that you mention, if they are sheen colors in black obsidian, are legit. If they are actually colored, as in "Robin's egg blue obsidian", "Galaxy obsidian", and "cranberry obsidian", which I have seen on Ebay in the past, they are also glass. At 10:02 PM 12/10/2007, you wrote: >I have seen Pumpkin from Oregon as in pumpkin pie color >Kelly >---- Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: > > Just saw a slab of yellow obsidian in the cabbing materials > listed on ebay. I know obsidian can be blue, pink, green, rainbow, > purple velvet, mahogany, fire obsidian (awesome stuff!) and > probably a few others, but haven't ever heard of yellow. Is that for real? > > > > Carol, taking a break from smoothing a silky aquamarine carving & > I sure like the stuff! > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Dec 11 07:29:49 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Dec 11 07:33:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] yellow obsidian In-Reply-To: <475E3A64.7070106@arczip.com> References: <30793312.1197352961481.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.adelphia.net> <475E3A64.7070106@arczip.com> Message-ID: <200712111529.lBBFTrRI011443@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Mahogany Hill. The brighter colors seem to come from the top of the flow (yes it's a long, steep walk up to the top). At 11:21 PM 12/10/2007, you wrote: >Kelly: Where in Oregon? If on Glass Butte, which area of the >butte, if you don't mind me asking. Thanks and Merry Christmas. Chuck... Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From jcessna at nist.gov Tue Dec 11 07:38:29 2007 From: jcessna at nist.gov (Jeffrey T. Cessna) Date: Tue Dec 11 07:38:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, but here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon... http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html -Jeff At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral >identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored amethyst >and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about >the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the pseudobrookite >I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or >refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can you >give me a more detailed location? > >Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/oh/ >oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it into your >web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that >the Thomas Range is not in Ohio.... > >Thanks! >Pete Richards >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rpr at heidelberg.edu Tue Dec 11 07:51:26 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Tue Dec 11 07:51:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> Message-ID: Yes, but isn't the brown stuff the aegirine and the pseudobrookite still black (just one crystal)? Pete On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey T. Cessna wrote: > All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, but > here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon... > > http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html > > -Jeff > > > At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral >> identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored amethyst >> and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about >> the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the pseudobrookite >> I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or >> refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can you >> give me a more detailed location? >> >> Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/ >> oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it >> into your >> web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that >> the Thomas Range is not in Ohio.... >> >> Thanks! >> Pete Richards >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From OnyxCollector at aol.com Tue Dec 11 08:31:14 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Tue Dec 11 08:31:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Green obsidian Message-ID: There is the Burns Green Obsidian Mine in Burns, Oregon. It was owned by flintknapper Craig Ratzat, but he moved to Colorado and let the claim lapse. Mr. Chris Pratt has filed a claim notice, but the brilliant BLM officials are fighting him over it, saying green obsidian is so common it can not be a locatable mineral. It is a nice green. Hopefully Mr. Pratt will prevail and this material will once again be available on the market. I recommend the following rock and fossil dealers: Mills Geological (petrified wood) FromMotherEarth (eBay seller minerals, crystals, fossils) Paleopublications (eBat seller mineral and fossil books) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Dec 11 08:42:26 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Dec 11 08:42:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> Message-ID: <8CA0A2BF245E368-688-11C1@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Hi Pete, I've been musing and puzzling over your question (your photos are excellent); trying to think if pseudobrookite ever occurs in transparent crystals like that. I just browsed the images (some 133) of pseuodobrookite posted on mindat.org.? I see that there are quite a number, of the very fine, acicular crystals, that are various shades red-brown and not just black as the larger crystals are; especially those of micromineral photographs from the Eifel, from Italy (around Etna and Vesuvius), and yes, from a couple of localities in Oregon (Lemolo Lake, Douglas Co., and Summit Rock, Klamath Co.).? All of those posted from the Thomas Range just appear black. So it seems that your crystals COULD indeed be pseudobrookite; I'm wondering if there are other good possibilities.? If they are pseudobrookite, they are better looking, and more transparent and a lighter shade of color, than any of the images presently posted on mindat, for those localities!? I would question whether they are really from the Thomas Range; the quantity of amethyst on the matrix with them, seems very anomalous for the Thomas Range, though I know it is reported to occur there. It will be interesting to see what else anyone comes up with... Pete (Modreski) -----Original Message----- From: R. Peter Richards To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 8:51 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Help with identification Yes, but isn't the brown stuff the aegirine and the pseudobrookite still black (just one crystal)?? ? ? Pete? ? ? ? On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey T. Cessna wrote:? ? ? > All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, but > here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon...? ? >? ? > http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html? ? >? ? > -Jeff? ? >? ? >? ? > At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote:? ? >> Hi all,? ? >>? ? >> I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral? ? >> identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored amethyst? ? >> and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about? ? >> the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the pseudobrookite? ? >> I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or? ? >> refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can you? ? >> give me a more detailed location?? ? >>? ? >> Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/? >> oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it >> into your? ? >> web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that? ? >> the Thomas Range is not in Ohio....? ? >>? ? >> Thanks!? ? >> Pete Richards? ? >> --? ? >> _______________________________________________? ? >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? ? >> Subscription Services:? ? >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? ? >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? ? >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ? >? ? >? ? > --? > _______________________________________________? ? > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? ? > Subscription Services:? ? > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? ? > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? ? > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ? ? ___________________________________? ? R. Peter Richards? ? rpr@heidelberg.edu? ? Morphological crystallographer? ? ? ? ? ? ? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---? ? multipart/alternative? ? ?text/plain (text body -- kept)? ? ?text/html? ? ---? ? --? _______________________________________________? ? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? ? Subscription Services:? ? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? ? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? ? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Dec 11 08:52:14 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Dec 11 08:52:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Green obsidian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712111652.lBBGqNXQ032019@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Still, it is green sheen in black obsidian. The material itself is black, not green. I actually agree with the BLM on this one, sheen obsidian is not a locatable mineral, according to their published administrative rules. It falls in the same category as petrified wood. If Mr. Pratt wants the definition of a locatable mineral changed, he should contact his congressman or representative. There are other examples where the BLM has determined that obsidian is a locatable mineral, i.e. the "Dryfire" claim at Glass Buttes, against their own rules. Yet another case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. At 08:31 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote: >There is the Burns Green Obsidian Mine in Burns, Oregon. It was owned by >flintknapper Craig Ratzat, but he moved to Colorado and let the >claim lapse. >Mr. Chris Pratt has filed a claim notice, but the brilliant BLM >officials are >fighting him over it, saying green obsidian is so common it can not be a >locatable mineral. It is a nice green. Hopefully Mr. Pratt will >prevail and >this material will once again be available on the market. > >I recommend the following rock and fossil dealers: >Mills Geological (petrified wood) >FromMotherEarth (eBay seller minerals, crystals, fossils) >Paleopublications (eBat seller mineral and fossil books) Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From rpr at heidelberg.edu Tue Dec 11 09:05:30 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Tue Dec 11 09:05:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: <8CA0A2BF245E368-688-11C1@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> <8CA0A2BF245E368-688-11C1@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Pete. I must admit that I did not take the pictures! I too looked through mindat, and it seemed to me that the pseudobrookite that is not black is pretty close to acicular, as you say; these crystals are stout by comparison. Getting a good i.d. on these and their location will probably depend on someone having actually collected some and had them analyzed.... Pete (Richards) On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:42 AM, pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > Hi Pete, > > I've been musing and puzzling over your question (your photos are > excellent); trying to think if pseudobrookite ever occurs in > transparent crystals like that. > > I just browsed the images (some 133) of pseuodobrookite posted on > mindat.org.? I see that there are quite a number, of the very fine, > acicular crystals, that are various shades red-brown and not just > black as the larger crystals are; especially those of micromineral > photographs from the Eifel, from Italy (around Etna and Vesuvius), > and yes, from a couple of localities in Oregon (Lemolo Lake, > Douglas Co., and Summit Rock, Klamath Co.).? All of those posted > from the Thomas Range just appear black. > > So it seems that your crystals COULD indeed be pseudobrookite; I'm > wondering if there are other good possibilities.? If they are > pseudobrookite, they are better looking, and more transparent and a > lighter shade of color, than any of the images presently posted on > mindat, for those localities!? I would question whether they are > really from the Thomas Range; the quantity of amethyst on the > matrix with them, seems very anomalous for the Thomas Range, though > I know it is reported to occur there. > > It will be interesting to see what else anyone comes up with... > > Pete (Modreski) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: R. Peter Richards > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Sent: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 8:51 am > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Help with identification > > > Yes, but isn't the brown stuff the aegirine and the pseudobrookite > still black (just one crystal)?? > ? > ? > Pete? > ? > ? > ? > On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey T. Cessna wrote:? > ? > ? >> All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, >> but > here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon...? > ? >> ? > ? >> http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html? > ? >> ? > ? >> -Jeff? > ? >> ? > ? >> ? > ? >> At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote:? > ? >>> Hi all,? > ? >>> ? > ? >>> I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral? > ? >>> identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored >>> amethyst? > ? >>> and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about? > ? >>> the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the >>> pseudobrookite? > ? >>> I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or? > ? >>> refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can >>> you? > ? >>> give me a more detailed location?? > ? >>> ? > ? >>> Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/? >>> oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it >> >>> into your? > ? >>> web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that? > ? >>> the Thomas Range is not in Ohio....? > ? >>> ? > ? >>> Thanks!? > ? >>> Pete Richards? > ? >>> --? > ? >>> _______________________________________________? > ? >>> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? > ? >>> Subscription Services:? > ? >>> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? > ? >>> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? > ? >>> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? > ? >> ? > ? >> ? > ? >> --? >> _______________________________________________? > ? >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? > ? >> Subscription Services:? > ? >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? > ? >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? > ? >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? > ? > ? > ___________________________________? > ? > R. Peter Richards? > ? > rpr@heidelberg.edu? > ? > Morphological crystallographer? > ? > ? > ? > ? > ? > ? > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---? > ? > multipart/alternative? > ? > ?text/plain (text body -- kept)? > ? > ?text/html? > ? > ---? > ? > --? > _______________________________________________? > ? > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? > ? > Subscription Services:? > ? > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? > ? > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? > ? > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? > ? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > __ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http:// > webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jcessna at nist.gov Tue Dec 11 09:17:20 2007 From: jcessna at nist.gov (Jeffrey T. Cessna) Date: Tue Dec 11 09:17:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071211114100.0229cd78@nist.gov> Pete, I was assuming the "yellow" was the aegirine and the "dark red" was the pseudobrookite, as labelled by the collector/photographer. Which brings up the other caveat - there is no info given on how the identification was made. Perhaps Doug Merson is lurking out there? However, if it is correct there are a few other pictures without the aegirine. Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon, USA http://www.mindat.org/photo-3458.html http://www.mindat.org/photo-135398.html http://www.mindat.org/photo-135399.html http://www.mindat.org/photo-135409.html Also, so others don't have to look it up, the black version... Thomas Range, Juab Co., Utah, USA http://www.mindat.org/photo-62815.html http://www.mindat.org/photo-129380.html (look close at the edges?) Also, with no info on how identification was made, a few other dark red/orange examples from other localities... http://www.mindat.org/photo-109816.html http://www.mindat.org/photo-109813.html http://www.mindat.org/photo-133874.html The pseudobrookite main page allows for dark red under the colors possible... http://www.mindat.org/min-3302.html Finally, my favorite photo of the lot comes from Germany, where I've noticed some of the women like to dye their hair bright colors ... http://www.mindat.org/photo-132971.html Good luck with the ID. -Jeff At 10:51 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote: >Yes, but isn't the brown stuff the aegirine and the pseudobrookite >still black (just one crystal)? > >Pete > > >On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey T. Cessna wrote: > >>All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, but >>here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon... >> >>http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html >> >>-Jeff >> >> >>At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote: >>>Hi all, >>> >>>I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral >>>identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored amethyst >>>and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about >>>the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the pseudobrookite >>>I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or >>>refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can you >>>give me a more detailed location? >>> >>>Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/ >>>oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it >>>into your >>>web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that >>>the Thomas Range is not in Ohio.... >>> >>>Thanks! >>>Pete Richards >>>-- >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>>Subscription Services: >>>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> >>-- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > >___________________________________ >R. Peter Richards >rpr@heidelberg.edu >Morphological crystallographer > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Dec 11 09:35:35 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Dec 11 09:35:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> <8CA0A2BF245E368-688-11C1@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA0A335F2E3490-688-1617@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Pete, This morning I forwarded your picture links to Ray DeMark, an old buddy from New Mexico who is extremely knowledgable about minerals (western U.S. microminerals especially), and here's what Ray wrote back: "The photomicrographs you sent are a dead ringer for the acmite xtals from Brushy Mountain in Taos Co., NM.? I'm pretty sure that they are from Brushy Mtn as they are associated with the amethystine quartz.? These acmites occur with pseudobrookite and hematite and this was the subject of a talk I gave at the NM Mineral Symposium a few years ago as it was a new occurrence for pseudobrookite.? Jesse Kline actually found this stuff and brought it to me to ask what it was.? We then made several trips up there to collect specimens.? The acmite ID was based on microprobe analysis by Paul which I know isn't definitive but is the best analysis that I have." It's looking like I wrote to exactly the right person!? What do you think?? I suspect that there may have been pseudobrookite in the material from which your specimens came, and that it would have been in larger & darker xls, but "these are not them", these are probably acmite, as Ray thinks.? If you want to write to Ray, he's at, raydemark@msn.com (You've probably heard of Ray, he's written a number of articles for Rocks & Minerals and MR over the years, on various New Mexico mineral themes.) best wishes, Pete (Modreski) Thanks, Pete. I must admit that I did not take the pictures! I too looked through mindat, and it seemed to me that the pseudobrookite that is not black is pretty close to acicular, as you say; these crystals are stout by comparison.? ? Getting a good i.d. on these and their location will probably depend on someone having actually collected some and had them analyzed....? ? Pete (Richards)? -----Original Message----- From: R. Peter Richards To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:05 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Help with identification Thanks, Pete. I must admit that I did not take the pictures! I too looked through mindat, and it seemed to me that the pseudobrookite that is not black is pretty close to acicular, as you say; these crystals are stout by comparison.? ? Getting a good i.d. on these and their location will probably depend on someone having actually collected some and had them analyzed....? ? Pete (Richards)? ? On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:42 AM, pmodreski@aol.com wrote:? ? > Hi Pete,? >? > I've been musing and puzzling over your question (your photos are > excellent); trying to think if pseudobrookite ever occurs in > transparent crystals like that.? >? > I just browsed the images (some 133) of pseuodobrookite posted on > mindat.org.? I see that there are quite a number, of the very fine, > acicular crystals, that are various shades red-brown and not just > black as the larger crystals are; especially those of micromineral > photographs from the Eifel, from Italy (around Etna and Vesuvius), > and yes, from a couple of localities in Oregon (Lemolo Lake, > Douglas Co., and Summit Rock, Klamath Co.).? All of those posted > from the Thomas Range just appear black.? >? > So it seems that your crystals COULD indeed be pseudobrookite; I'm > wondering if there are other good possibilities.? If they are > pseudobrookite, they are better looking, and more transparent and a > lighter shade of color, than any of the images presently posted on > mindat, for those localities!? I would question whether they are > really from the Thomas Range; the quantity of amethyst on the > matrix with them, seems very anomalous for the Thomas Range, though > I know it is reported to occur there.? >? > It will be interesting to see what else anyone comes up with...? >? > Pete (Modreski)? >? >? > -----Original Message-----? > From: R. Peter Richards ? > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors ? > Sent: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 8:51 am? > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Help with identification? >? >? > Yes, but isn't the brown stuff the aegirine and the pseudobrookite > still black (just one crystal)??? > ?? > ?? > Pete?? > ?? > ?? > ?? > On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey T. Cessna wrote:?? > ?? > ?? >> All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, >> but > here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., Oregon...?? > ?? >> ?? > ?? >> http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html?? > ?? >> ?? > ?? >> -Jeff?? > ?? >> ?? > ?? >> ?? > ?? >> At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote:?? > ?? >>> Hi all,?? > ?? >>> ?? > ?? >>> I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral?? > ?? >>> identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored >>> amethyst?? > ?? >>> and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical about?? > ?? >>> the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the >>> pseudobrookite?? > ?? >>> I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or?? > ?? >>> refute this identification, and if you recognize the material can >>> you?? > ?? >>> give me a more detailed location??? > ?? >>> ?? > ?? >>> Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/?? >>> oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it >> >>> into your?? > ?? >>> web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that?? > ?? >>> the Thomas Range is not in Ohio....?? > ?? >>> ?? > ?? >>> Thanks!?? > ?? >>> Pete Richards?? > ?? >>> --?? > ?? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Tue Dec 11 09:50:32 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Tue Dec 11 09:50:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Help with identification In-Reply-To: <8CA0A335F2E3490-688-1617@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> References: <74160BD6-B110-410F-9782-386F3C381945@heidelberg.edu> <7.0.1.0.2.20071211103556.02299900@nist.gov> <8CA0A2BF245E368-688-11C1@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> <8CA0A335F2E3490-688-1617@webmail-db08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Bingo! I should have thought of Ray. Acmite (aegirine) was one of my guesses, and it all makes sense. Furthermore, the material in question came from the "freebies" table at the Cleveland Micromineral Symposium, Ray has been our featured speaker in the past, and several club members past and present have collected in NM and/or obtained material from Ray. Apparently the locality was mis-remembered. Thanks! Pete (Richards) On Dec 11, 2007, at 12:35 PM, pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > Pete, > > This morning I forwarded your picture links to Ray DeMark, an old > buddy from New Mexico who is extremely knowledgable about minerals > (western U.S. microminerals especially), and here's what Ray wrote > back: > > "The photomicrographs you sent are a dead ringer for the acmite > xtals from Brushy Mountain in Taos Co., NM.? I'm pretty sure that > they are from Brushy Mtn as they are associated with the > amethystine quartz.? These acmites occur with pseudobrookite and > hematite and this was the subject of a talk I gave at the NM > Mineral Symposium a few years ago as it was a new occurrence for > pseudobrookite.? Jesse Kline actually found this stuff and brought > it to me to ask what it was.? We then made several trips up there > to collect specimens.? The acmite ID was based on microprobe > analysis by Paul which I know isn't definitive but is the best > analysis that I have." > > It's looking like I wrote to exactly the right person!? What do you > think?? I suspect that there may have been pseudobrookite in the > material from which your specimens came, and that it would have > been in larger & darker xls, but "these are not them", these are > probably acmite, as Ray thinks.? If you want to write to Ray, he's at, > raydemark@msn.com > (You've probably heard of Ray, he's written a number of articles > for Rocks & Minerals and MR over the years, on various New Mexico > mineral themes.) > > best wishes, > Pete (Modreski) > > > Thanks, Pete. I must admit that I did not take the pictures! I too > looked through mindat, and it seemed to me that the pseudobrookite > that is not black is pretty close to acicular, as you say; these > crystals are stout by comparison.? > ? > Getting a good i.d. on these and their location will probably > depend on someone having actually collected some and had them > analyzed....? > ? > Pete (Richards)? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: R. Peter Richards > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Sent: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:05 am > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Help with identification > > > Thanks, Pete. I must admit that I did not take the pictures! I too > looked through mindat, and it seemed to me that the pseudobrookite > that is not black is pretty close to acicular, as you say; these > crystals are stout by comparison.? > ? > Getting a good i.d. on these and their location will probably > depend on someone having actually collected some and had them > analyzed....? > ? > Pete (Richards)? > ? > On Dec 11, 2007, at 11:42 AM, pmodreski@aol.com wrote:? > ? >> Hi Pete,? >> ? >> I've been musing and puzzling over your question (your photos are >> > excellent); trying to think if pseudobrookite ever occurs in > >> transparent crystals like that.? >> ? >> I just browsed the images (some 133) of pseuodobrookite posted on >> > mindat.org.? I see that there are quite a number, of the very >> fine, > acicular crystals, that are various shades red-brown and >> not just > black as the larger crystals are; especially those of >> micromineral > photographs from the Eifel, from Italy (around Etna >> and Vesuvius), > and yes, from a couple of localities in Oregon >> (Lemolo Lake, > Douglas Co., and Summit Rock, Klamath Co.).? All >> of those posted > from the Thomas Range just appear black.? >> ? >> So it seems that your crystals COULD indeed be pseudobrookite; I'm >> > wondering if there are other good possibilities.? If they are > >> pseudobrookite, they are better looking, and more transparent and >> a > lighter shade of color, than any of the images presently >> posted on > mindat, for those localities!? I would question >> whether they are > really from the Thomas Range; the quantity of >> amethyst on the > matrix with them, seems very anomalous for the >> Thomas Range, though > I know it is reported to occur there.? >> ? >> It will be interesting to see what else anyone comes up with...? >> ? >> Pete (Modreski)? >> ? >> ? >> -----Original Message-----? >> From: R. Peter Richards ? >> To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > >> collectors ? >> Sent: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 8:51 am? >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Help with identification? >> ? >> ? >> Yes, but isn't the brown stuff the aegirine and the pseudobrookite >> > still black (just one crystal)??? >> ?? >> ?? >> Pete?? >> ?? >> ?? >> ?? >> On Dec 11, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey T. Cessna wrote:?? >> ?? >> ?? >>> All of the Thomas Range, Utah pictures on Mindat.org are black, >>> >> but > here is a picture from Summit Rock, Klamath Co., >>> Oregon...?? >> ?? >>> ?? >> ?? >>> http://www.mindat.org/photo-135505.html?? >> ?? >>> ?? >> ?? >>> -Jeff?? >> ?? >>> ?? >> ?? >>> ?? >> ?? >>> At 08:16 AM 12/11/2007, you wrote:?? >> ?? >>>> Hi all,?? >> ?? >>>> ?? >> ?? >>>> I have several samples of a long prismatic orange-brown mineral?? >> ?? >>>> identified as pseudobrookite, associated with light-colored >>> >>>> amethyst?? >> ?? >>>> and said to be from the Thomas Range in Utah. I am skeptical >>>> about?? >> ?? >>>> the identification as pseudobrookite, since all of the >>> >>>> pseudobrookite?? >> ?? >>>> I have seen is nearly black. Can any of you Westerners confirm or?? >> ?? >>>> refute this identification, and if you recognize the material >>>> can >>> you?? >> ?? >>>> give me a more detailed location??? >> ?? >>>> ?? >> ?? >>>> Two digital images can be viewed at www.geocities.com/sajas.geo/?? >>>> oh/ oh.html. You'll probably have to copy the URL and paste it >>>> >> >>> into your?? >> ?? >>>> web browser. Ignore the title at the top of the page. I know that?? >> ?? >>>> the Thomas Range is not in Ohio....?? >> ?? >>>> ?? >> ?? >>>> Thanks!?? >> ?? >>>> Pete Richards?? >> ?? >>>> --?? >> ?? > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > __ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http:// > webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Tue Dec 11 12:24:05 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Tue Dec 11 12:24:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cave Pearls References: <003e01c82bee$6e292460$610fa8c0@Grimble> Message-ID: <000801c83c33$c79a5c80$0200000a@LarryRush> I have had an inquiry from someone looking to buy some "Cave Pearls", preferably Asian. Does anyone know where this person can obtain (legally) Cave Pearls? (And I don't need an explanation of their occurrence or origin, or the morality of collecting them...thanks anyway) Larry From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Tue Dec 11 14:10:50 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Tue Dec 11 14:10:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cave Pearls References: <003e01c82bee$6e292460$610fa8c0@Grimble> <000801c83c33$c79a5c80$0200000a@LarryRush> Message-ID: <001c01c83c42$b06ed220$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Cave pearls are formed in subterranean splash pools. Grains of sand or small pieces of gravel get coated with CaCO3 as they roll around gently from the impact of water. They can be spherical, but most are irregular. Ideally they are white from pure CaCO3, but it is not unusual to find the other colors found in cave speleothems (brown, orange and shades in between are common). As speleothems go, they are much less common than the typical cave decoration. In the 150 caves I have explored over the years, cave pearls are known in less than 10%. The only legal way I know of that they can be obtained from a U.S. source is from a limestone quarry that blasts through a cave. I've found just about everything possible in the Bassett Products and Corydon Quarry caves I collected from - stalactites, stalagmites, soda straws, helectites, drapery/bacon strips, cave popcorn, flowstone - but no cave pearls because these quarried caves did not have active streams (a bane for quarry operations anyway). Consider the wholesale "mining" of Chinese caves, I would suspect that cave pearls would turn up from time to time. It would be a matter of finding a dealer that imports directly from sources. I won't get to the ethics behind mining caves in China, because everyone has their own opinion on the subject. I won't buy cave speleothems unless I have good information about the source. From China? Yeah, right... Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rush" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:24 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Cave Pearls >I have had an inquiry from someone looking to buy some "Cave Pearls", >preferably Asian. > > Does anyone know where this person can obtain (legally) Cave Pearls? > > (And I don't need an explanation of their occurrence or origin, or the > morality of collecting them...thanks anyway) > > Larry > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lavenderfish at cox.net Tue Dec 11 14:27:07 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Tue Dec 11 14:27:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: green obsidian Message-ID: <0c5d01c83c44$f7d763f0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> On my visit to Oregon this fall I purchased a couple small chunks of Burns green from Digger Don's in Roseburg. They're weathered black on the outside and a beautiful army green on the inside. Made a nice jewelry carving from a piece of it & if anybody wants to see, just email me. Kinda wondered if that yellow obsidian was glass that somebody was making a stretch with in hopes of making a sale...and probably will! While we're on the topic of obsidian, what's the difference between man-made glass and natural glasses like obsidian, moldavite, tektites?, others? CaroL, rocks on the brain like usual :-) From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 11 17:18:02 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 11 17:11:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> Message-ID: <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> Don, I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert system software package to help with mineral identification. It would have a knowledge base of the 4,000+ known minerals and an inference engine that could play '20 questions' with me and get me close to an identification. I expect it would ask some questions I couldn't answer (I don't have easy access to XRD for example), some questions that might take me a while and some labwork (does it contain Antimony?), and easy questions (streak, hardness, specific gravity, etc). The software would obviously need to capture the knowledge of many experts. There would have to be a way to teach it about newly discovered minerals. It should also allow lookup by mineral or group, like mindat and webmineral. Hopefully it would ask enough questions I can answer to make a probable identification. More likely it would give me a short list of possible minerals (or a group) and tell me what tests I would need to perform to distinguish them. It would be like having a team of expert mineralogists guiding me thru an identification. Kreigh DonH wrote: > > Hi Horst, > > Having contributed to two recently published books on mineralogy, I can > tell you that software for determinative mineralogy won't always get you > far, depending on the type of minerals you are trying to identify, and > how exact you want the ID to be; e.g., will you be satisfied with the > group name (e.g., apatite) or do you need to know the exact species > within the group. Also, will you be satisfied with 5 or 6 minerals it > could be or do you absolutely need to know the exact mineral. I think > you are someone who collects micromounts and rare species. As you > probably know, there are well over 4,000 valid species and thousands of > varieties; many of these will be very difficult to identify. > > In Geology 101, we give the students a tray of minerals to ID by color, > streak, hardness, cleavage, luster, etc. These are all unique and are > all common rock-forming minerals. In mineralogy lab, the first day, > they do the same exercise, except a few of the minerals are very similar > and cannot be identified by determinative properties. Then we introduce > them to refractive index, relief, pleochroism, optic class, etc., by > which they can identify many more minerals. After that we give them an > exercise in which they can identify 6 out of 8 mineral grains--assuming > they have been paying attention--but the last two have such similar > optical properties that they can't be identified with certainty. After > that they learn the principles of EDS, XRD, etc. > > This book recently published by the Mineralogical Record contains a lot > of information on how to ID minerals at home. > > http://www.minrec.org/bookdetail.asp?id=48 > > (I contributed to the book but receive no compensation for sales). The > book does have a disk with useful software on it, but the reader still > needs to do some analytical work in the kitchen first. Color is a very > variable property, and many silicate minerals have a colorless streak. > However, specific gravity and optical properties add far more value to > the ID process. The book gives instructions on how to obtain those > values, at least to 1 or 2 decimal places. > > There are plenty of minerals that require multiple advanced analytical > techniques to ID. For example, telling apart all the amphiboles > requires both chemistry and structure, and then there is still some > interpretation and assumption involved (one reason being that electron > beam instruments can't measure (OH-), so it must be assumed by > difference). Some of them are distinctive, but many are not, and it > would be fruitless to try to positively identify all the amphiboles by > simple determinative techniques. On a similar note, I recently analyzed > eight samples of fluorescent apatites from Franklin & Sterling Hill, NJ. > All but one were mixed phosphate/arsenate apatites, and I expected at > least 2 or 3 of them to be the same, but they were all different. The > microprobe operator had a fit when I asked him to configure a scan for > zinc and lead in addition to the usual suspects, and asked me three > times if I was sure there was significant arsenic (I finally had to show > him the Franklin & Sterling Hill apatites in the Handbook of Mineralogy > to prove they really exist). When all was done, I was getting about > 95-98% weight totals, which I usually don't accept as valid, but in this > case it means that 2-5 weight% of the specimens were elements for which > we didn't even analyze. After he corrected the data for drift and ran > the results through the microprobe software, the printout gave an > identity for a mineral I've never heard about. The calculated > stoichiometry was so bad that it simply cannot exist in this > manifestation of the universe. I have to resort to doing the > calculations by hand. In the end, I can provide a first-order > approximation of which 2 or 3 specific minerals each one might be, but > until I get some help from someone who is familiar with analyzing these > species (after all, I'm still a student, and these are somewhat > difficult), I refuse to try to assign a positive ID. Yet you will find > any number of people who would look at these, squint, rub their chin, > hold a finger in the air, and declare a definite identity. The most > difficult thing for a collector or geologist to say is "I have no idea," > but ironically it is the phrase that should be uttered more than any > other. Sometimes you just can't tell without instrument analysis, and > sometimes, not even then. > > Okay, back to the question at hand: how much dirty work are you willing > to do on the specimen, and how willing are you to accept uncertain results? > > Fondly yours, > Don > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Dec 11 17:19:25 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Dec 11 17:19:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Green obsidian In-Reply-To: <0c5d01c83c44$f7d763f0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> References: <0c5d01c83c44$f7d763f0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <200712120119.lBC1JroY007314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Without direct lighting to reflect from the microscopic air bubbles in sheen obsidians and show the sheen, they are black, trust me. I don't know of a consistent way to light the strong sheen obsidians so that they are black, but if you play with a flashlight (penlight would be best) you can find the angle that makes them turn black. The color hasn't weathered out of the piece; rather you need a fresh fracture or cut plane to show the sheen in normal lighting. Much of the Burns green shows green sheen even on weathered surfaces in strong sunlight. If you cut a thin slice so it is translucent and look at it on a light table, it is a ghostly smoke color, not green. There is no "color" in any natural obsidian except for shades of brown, grey, and black. There is no mineral present that would make them green. I have been to and collected Burns green many times. You just stated the difference between natural and man-made glasses: the former occurs naturally, and the latter does not. At 02:27 PM 12/11/2007, you wrote: >On my visit to Oregon this fall I purchased a couple small chunks of >Burns green from Digger Don's in Roseburg. They're weathered black >on the outside and a beautiful army green on the inside. Made a nice >jewelry carving from a piece of it & if anybody wants to see, just email me. > >Kinda wondered if that yellow obsidian was glass that somebody was >making a stretch with in hopes of making a sale...and probably will! > >While we're on the topic of obsidian, what's the difference between >man-made glass and natural glasses like obsidian, moldavite, tektites?, others? > >CaroL, rocks on the brain like usual :-) Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Dec 11 17:26:21 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Dec 11 17:26:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Well if you experts could come up with a key structure/flow path then it would probably be trivial to code. I'd certainly volunteer coding time, but I'm not up to doing the underlaying logic. BK On Dec 11, 2007 8:18 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Don, > > I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert system software > package to help with mineral identification. It would have a knowledge > base of the 4,000+ known minerals and an inference engine that could > play '20 questions' with me and get me close to an identification. > > I expect it would ask some questions I couldn't answer (I don't have > easy access to XRD for example), some questions that might take me a > while and some labwork (does it contain Antimony?), and easy questions > (streak, hardness, specific gravity, etc). > > The software would obviously need to capture the knowledge of many > experts. There would have to be a way to teach it about newly discovered > minerals. It should also allow lookup by mineral or group, like mindat > and webmineral. > > Hopefully it would ask enough questions I can answer to make a probable > identification. More likely it would give me a short list of possible > minerals (or a group) and tell me what tests I would need to perform to > distinguish them. > > It would be like having a team of expert mineralogists guiding me thru > an identification. > > Kreigh > > > > DonH wrote: > > > > Hi Horst, > > > > Having contributed to two recently published books on mineralogy, I can > > tell you that software for determinative mineralogy won't always get you > > far, depending on the type of minerals you are trying to identify, and > > how exact you want the ID to be; e.g., will you be satisfied with the > > group name (e.g., apatite) or do you need to know the exact species > > within the group. Also, will you be satisfied with 5 or 6 minerals it > > could be or do you absolutely need to know the exact mineral. I think > > you are someone who collects micromounts and rare species. As you > > probably know, there are well over 4,000 valid species and thousands of > > varieties; many of these will be very difficult to identify. > > > > In Geology 101, we give the students a tray of minerals to ID by color, > > streak, hardness, cleavage, luster, etc. These are all unique and are > > all common rock-forming minerals. In mineralogy lab, the first day, > > they do the same exercise, except a few of the minerals are very similar > > and cannot be identified by determinative properties. Then we introduce > > them to refractive index, relief, pleochroism, optic class, etc., by > > which they can identify many more minerals. After that we give them an > > exercise in which they can identify 6 out of 8 mineral grains--assuming > > they have been paying attention--but the last two have such similar > > optical properties that they can't be identified with certainty. After > > that they learn the principles of EDS, XRD, etc. > > > > This book recently published by the Mineralogical Record contains a lot > > of information on how to ID minerals at home. > > > > http://www.minrec.org/bookdetail.asp?id=48 > > > > (I contributed to the book but receive no compensation for sales). The > > book does have a disk with useful software on it, but the reader still > > needs to do some analytical work in the kitchen first. Color is a very > > variable property, and many silicate minerals have a colorless streak. > > However, specific gravity and optical properties add far more value to > > the ID process. The book gives instructions on how to obtain those > > values, at least to 1 or 2 decimal places. > > > > There are plenty of minerals that require multiple advanced analytical > > techniques to ID. For example, telling apart all the amphiboles > > requires both chemistry and structure, and then there is still some > > interpretation and assumption involved (one reason being that electron > > beam instruments can't measure (OH-), so it must be assumed by > > difference). Some of them are distinctive, but many are not, and it > > would be fruitless to try to positively identify all the amphiboles by > > simple determinative techniques. On a similar note, I recently analyzed > > eight samples of fluorescent apatites from Franklin & Sterling Hill, NJ. > > All but one were mixed phosphate/arsenate apatites, and I expected at > > least 2 or 3 of them to be the same, but they were all different. The > > microprobe operator had a fit when I asked him to configure a scan for > > zinc and lead in addition to the usual suspects, and asked me three > > times if I was sure there was significant arsenic (I finally had to show > > him the Franklin & Sterling Hill apatites in the Handbook of Mineralogy > > to prove they really exist). When all was done, I was getting about > > 95-98% weight totals, which I usually don't accept as valid, but in this > > case it means that 2-5 weight% of the specimens were elements for which > > we didn't even analyze. After he corrected the data for drift and ran > > the results through the microprobe software, the printout gave an > > identity for a mineral I've never heard about. The calculated > > stoichiometry was so bad that it simply cannot exist in this > > manifestation of the universe. I have to resort to doing the > > calculations by hand. In the end, I can provide a first-order > > approximation of which 2 or 3 specific minerals each one might be, but > > until I get some help from someone who is familiar with analyzing these > > species (after all, I'm still a student, and these are somewhat > > difficult), I refuse to try to assign a positive ID. Yet you will find > > any number of people who would look at these, squint, rub their chin, > > hold a finger in the air, and declare a definite identity. The most > > difficult thing for a collector or geologist to say is "I have no idea," > > but ironically it is the phrase that should be uttered more than any > > other. Sometimes you just can't tell without instrument analysis, and > > sometimes, not even then. > > > > Okay, back to the question at hand: how much dirty work are you willing > > to do on the specimen, and how willing are you to accept uncertain > results? > > > > Fondly yours, > > Don > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 17:37:49 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Dec 11 17:37:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: green obsidian In-Reply-To: <0c5d01c83c44$f7d763f0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> References: <0c5d01c83c44$f7d763f0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <475F3B6D.8020304@verizon.net> Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: > While we're on the topic of obsidian, what's the difference between > man-made glass and natural glasses like obsidian, moldavite, tektites?, > others? Hi, In very simple terms, natural glasses are composed of whatever elements are in the magma--mostly silica of course, but other elements such as iron, aluminum, magnesium, and all sorts of trace elements. The mix is variable. Volcanologists spend their careers analyzing the composition of volcanic glasses and lavas to determine the source of the flow and the origin of magmas, among other things. Manufactured glasses are made from specific recipes for specific purposes. One interesting fact is that much of the plate glass made today is float glass, prepared by floating the mixture on a bed of molten tin. Due to the absorption of tin by the "down side," that side of the glass will fluoresce an unsaturated mustard-yellow or straw color under SW UV. As part of my forensics talk, I tested the fl. side and the non-fl. side of a piece of float glass, figuring that if there is enough tin in one side to fluoresce, there should be enough to detect. The bottom line is that the EDS (the instrument that is usually attached to the SEM) barely detected tin, and only when we tuned the software to look for it. On the other hand, my favorite instrument the microprobe detected it quite easily. It is important to know this for forensics, since two evidence packages may contain broken glass that is actually from the same pane, but an analyst may conclude that they are different if one fragment is from the tin side and the other one is not. Of course, forensic analysts are aware of this issue, but it is a good example to use in geology to show migration of elements in a contact zone and how one specimen that appears homogeneous may not be, chemically. Glasses like Pyrex have their own special compositions and manufacturing processes, and while there might be minor variation from batch to batch, industrial glasses are made using carefully controlled processes and recipes. Don From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 18:44:43 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Dec 11 18:44:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <475F4B1B.3080500@verizon.net> Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Don, > > I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert system software > package to help with mineral identification. Oh I agree! I was offering a "reality check" regarding what it takes to ID most minerals. And on that note, Minsearch 4.00, the software that comes with Mineral Identification: A Practical Guide for the Amateur Mineralogist, recently published by Mineralogical Record, has a lot of the search logic that people here have been talking about (or does no one believe me???) The book itself has a lot of information on how to ID minerals at home without fancy equipment, though some chemicals are required for reagent tests. I'd like to see someone else who has the book and software, and has used them, comment on it. I think it provides much of what people have been asking about for years. And I really don't receive any proceeds from the sale of the book (except a free copy). But i wouldn't have put my name to the Afterword if I hadn't thought it would be very useful to the collector community. best, Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 11 20:21:33 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 11 20:15:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> Bryan, Inference engines are available both commercially and via open source. That is actually the easy part, and little to no coding would be needed. The hard part is constructing the rule/knowledge base that the engine works against. If the formula is Si02 then the mineral is Quartz. If the mineral is Quartz then the formula is SiO2. Every datum about every mineral needs to essentially be turned into trivia and encoded in a format like the symantic web, with Resource Descriptor statements, and Ontology Language definitions (and their relationships). You also need all the IF/THEN rules about how to identify a mineral, and what each property of a mineral is. Then you simply tell the inference engine the goal is to identify a mineral, and it does the rest by 'learning' from the rulebase. If the expert system is not producing correct results, then you need to add more rules to the database, not write code. Inference engines have gotten pretty good over the past 25 some years. When an expert system asks you a question you can respond with WHY and get an explanation that it builds from the rules it has processed to reach that question, on its way to the goal. You can ask HOW to learn what you need to do to answer the question. So many factoids. I had some discussions with the IMA earlier this year trying to interest them in making an expert system. Their response boiled down to "We have no problems identifying minerals, why would we need an expert system?". Capturing all the knowledge about all the recognized minerals, from many experts, and making it available to anyone, was an insufficient answer. The best expert systems will even let you define goals by asking questions about the subject matter. They may ask you some questions back, but they usually can produce a reasonable, factual answer, and justify/explain it. I would love to find a sponsor organization/university/business willing to take on this effort as open source so we all can use it. Someone with a deep pocket will eventually figure out that being the world's best mineralogist (and probably geologist too) will make money, and we will have to pay for access. I also want to help. If it is not grown, it has to be mined. There is a huge amount of knowledge about what is mined. I would like to see it preserved. I want an expert system that can mine all the knowledge about all the known minerals (and their geology) and share it with me. Kreigh J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > Well if you experts could come up with a key structure/flow path then it > would probably be trivial to code. I'd certainly volunteer coding time, but > I'm not up to doing the underlaying logic. > > BK > > On Dec 11, 2007 8:18 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > Don, > > > > I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert system software > > package to help with mineral identification. It would have a knowledge > > base of the 4,000+ known minerals and an inference engine that could > > play '20 questions' with me and get me close to an identification. > > > > I expect it would ask some questions I couldn't answer (I don't have > > easy access to XRD for example), some questions that might take me a > > while and some labwork (does it contain Antimony?), and easy questions > > (streak, hardness, specific gravity, etc). > > > > The software would obviously need to capture the knowledge of many > > experts. There would have to be a way to teach it about newly discovered > > minerals. It should also allow lookup by mineral or group, like mindat > > and webmineral. > > > > Hopefully it would ask enough questions I can answer to make a probable > > identification. More likely it would give me a short list of possible > > minerals (or a group) and tell me what tests I would need to perform to > > distinguish them. > > > > It would be like having a team of expert mineralogists guiding me thru > > an identification. > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > DonH wrote: > > > > > > Hi Horst, > > > > > > Having contributed to two recently published books on mineralogy, I can > > > tell you that software for determinative mineralogy won't always get you > > > far, depending on the type of minerals you are trying to identify, and > > > how exact you want the ID to be; e.g., will you be satisfied with the > > > group name (e.g., apatite) or do you need to know the exact species > > > within the group. Also, will you be satisfied with 5 or 6 minerals it > > > could be or do you absolutely need to know the exact mineral. I think > > > you are someone who collects micromounts and rare species. As you > > > probably know, there are well over 4,000 valid species and thousands of > > > varieties; many of these will be very difficult to identify. > > > > > > In Geology 101, we give the students a tray of minerals to ID by color, > > > streak, hardness, cleavage, luster, etc. These are all unique and are > > > all common rock-forming minerals. In mineralogy lab, the first day, > > > they do the same exercise, except a few of the minerals are very similar > > > and cannot be identified by determinative properties. Then we introduce > > > them to refractive index, relief, pleochroism, optic class, etc., by > > > which they can identify many more minerals. After that we give them an > > > exercise in which they can identify 6 out of 8 mineral grains--assuming > > > they have been paying attention--but the last two have such similar > > > optical properties that they can't be identified with certainty. After > > > that they learn the principles of EDS, XRD, etc. > > > > > > This book recently published by the Mineralogical Record contains a lot > > > of information on how to ID minerals at home. > > > > > > http://www.minrec.org/bookdetail.asp?id=48 > > > > > > (I contributed to the book but receive no compensation for sales). The > > > book does have a disk with useful software on it, but the reader still > > > needs to do some analytical work in the kitchen first. Color is a very > > > variable property, and many silicate minerals have a colorless streak. > > > However, specific gravity and optical properties add far more value to > > > the ID process. The book gives instructions on how to obtain those > > > values, at least to 1 or 2 decimal places. > > > > > > There are plenty of minerals that require multiple advanced analytical > > > techniques to ID. For example, telling apart all the amphiboles > > > requires both chemistry and structure, and then there is still some > > > interpretation and assumption involved (one reason being that electron > > > beam instruments can't measure (OH-), so it must be assumed by > > > difference). Some of them are distinctive, but many are not, and it > > > would be fruitless to try to positively identify all the amphiboles by > > > simple determinative techniques. On a similar note, I recently analyzed > > > eight samples of fluorescent apatites from Franklin & Sterling Hill, NJ. > > > All but one were mixed phosphate/arsenate apatites, and I expected at > > > least 2 or 3 of them to be the same, but they were all different. The > > > microprobe operator had a fit when I asked him to configure a scan for > > > zinc and lead in addition to the usual suspects, and asked me three > > > times if I was sure there was significant arsenic (I finally had to show > > > him the Franklin & Sterling Hill apatites in the Handbook of Mineralogy > > > to prove they really exist). When all was done, I was getting about > > > 95-98% weight totals, which I usually don't accept as valid, but in this > > > case it means that 2-5 weight% of the specimens were elements for which > > > we didn't even analyze. After he corrected the data for drift and ran > > > the results through the microprobe software, the printout gave an > > > identity for a mineral I've never heard about. The calculated > > > stoichiometry was so bad that it simply cannot exist in this > > > manifestation of the universe. I have to resort to doing the > > > calculations by hand. In the end, I can provide a first-order > > > approximation of which 2 or 3 specific minerals each one might be, but > > > until I get some help from someone who is familiar with analyzing these > > > species (after all, I'm still a student, and these are somewhat > > > difficult), I refuse to try to assign a positive ID. Yet you will find > > > any number of people who would look at these, squint, rub their chin, > > > hold a finger in the air, and declare a definite identity. The most > > > difficult thing for a collector or geologist to say is "I have no idea," > > > but ironically it is the phrase that should be uttered more than any > > > other. Sometimes you just can't tell without instrument analysis, and > > > sometimes, not even then. > > > > > > Okay, back to the question at hand: how much dirty work are you willing > > > to do on the specimen, and how willing are you to accept uncertain > > results? > > > > > > Fondly yours, > > > Don > > > From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Dec 11 20:43:51 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Dec 11 20:43:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too few tests one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that require advanced equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield ambiguous results or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, crystal shape, and so on). One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical composition; X-ray diffraction). It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't have much utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, and then refer to books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple tests for chemical composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt minerals. But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one would devise these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery minerals". Just "IMHO"... Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Dec 11 22:11:14 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Dec 11 22:11:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> <475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <475F7B82.8060708@verizon.net> Hi, By the way, for those interested, has anyone seen the list of software on this page? http://www.minerant.org/software.html best regards, Don From magnet at crocoite.com Wed Dec 12 01:51:04 2007 From: magnet at crocoite.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?magnet?=) Date: Wed Dec 12 01:52:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: <20071212095104.5031.qmail@webmachine101.com> I agree with Pete M to a large degree. For example, I was stumped by some yellow bipyramidal crystals on quartz. They turned out to be wickmanite, a manganese tin hydroxide. It required a friend of mine analysing it. An expert system would have struggled with that one, although it may have eventually got there. It came from a tin mine after all. By the way Kreigh, the first part of > If the formula is Si02 then the mineral is Quartz. > If the mineral is Quartz then the formula is SiO2. is not necessarily true. Yes, the mineral would be quartz in the vast majority of occasions, but it could be coesite, tridymite, stishovite, cristobalite or lechatelierite! Regards Steve Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/ From Lapidry at aol.com Wed Dec 12 04:11:02 2007 From: Lapidry at aol.com (Lapidry@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 12 04:11:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cave Pearls Message-ID: In a message dated 12/11/2007 3:24:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, larryrush@worldnet.att.net writes: I have had an inquiry from someone looking to buy some "Cave Pearls", preferably Asian. Does anyone know where this person can obtain (legally) Cave Pearls? (And I don't need an explanation of their occurrence or origin, or the morality of collecting them...thanks anyway) Larry About 35-40 years ago I used to know someone who was getting cave pearls from a lead mine in Mexico. I don't know which mine. I was given a few at the time. One thing I saw that was really neat was the miners were intentionally throwing old gloves into the water where the cave pearls were forming to let them get coated, then selling the gloves at a premium. Dan **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Wed Dec 12 05:30:12 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Wed Dec 12 05:30:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002201c83cc3$1feb6930$2101a8c0@sterling88d31e> Kreigh wrote: I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert system software package to help with mineral identification. It would have a knowledge base of the 4,000+ known minerals and an inference engine that could play '20 questions' with me and get me close to an identification. --------------------------- I'll bet much of the legwork for this project has already been done through members of the IMA. Somewhere out there, I'll bet, is a database of mineral properties already set up - in fact, I remember that one 1990's compendium on mineral properties, alphabetically by species, was mentioned by a reviewer as showing "what can be done with a good database." Wish I could remember the title (and the book is at home, so I can't check now), but you can imagine the implications: if the database exists, and is accessible for public use, then you could search it on any combination of attributes you wish and narrow the possible range of mineral IDs considerably. Cheers- Earl --------------------------------- Dr. Earl R. Verbeek Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum P: 973-209-7212 F: 973-209-8505 E: shmm@ptd.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Wed Dec 12 05:45:09 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Wed Dec 12 05:45:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F7B82.8060708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000001c83cc5$36763700$2101a8c0@sterling88d31e> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Hi, By the way, for those interested, has anyone seen the list of software on this page? http://www.minerant.org/software.html best regards, Don ------------------------------------------------ Whoops, wish I'd read this before firing off my post. The database is in there ... probably the same one I was talking about. Need more coffee - Earl --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Wed Dec 12 06:42:12 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 12 06:42:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: Well, Earl, if we all knew and remembered EVERYTHING right off the bat, then we'd never need to talk to one another about anything, right? Thanks from me too, Don, for sending the link to that Antwerp Mineralogy Club site with the descriptions of all those multitudinous mineral software & database links. Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 07:27:30 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Dec 12 07:27:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <64662.11748.qm@web34311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have to agree with Pete. I've seen many tables over the years, but none that worked well. In referring to non-analytical identification, Neal Yedlin said "You don't identify minerals, you recognize them". There's no substitute for looking at a lot of specimens and remembering what you saw. I've found the most useful approach (but far from foolproof) to first get a list of what's known from the locality from Mindat of some other source, then scan through pictures, particularly of specimens from that locality. Jim Daly Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too few tests one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that require advanced equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield ambiguous results or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, crystal shape, and so on). One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical composition; X-ray diffraction). It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't have much utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, and then refer to books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple tests for chemical composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt minerals. But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one would devise these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery minerals". Just "IMHO"... Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rik.dillen at skynet.be Wed Dec 12 11:20:23 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Wed Dec 12 11:22:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001c83cf4$0b470670$21d51350$@dillen@skynet.be> I agree with Pete. For relatively easy cases you don't need artificial intelligence... you need experience. For difficult cases the type of expert systems we are talking about wouldn't work. Imagine that you would have to differentiate between all types of greenish minerals from the vicinity of Schwaz, Austria ? It's even sometimes very hard to identify them positively in the scanning electron microscope w/ EDX. And what about all kinds of (sub-microscopic) intergrowths, solid solution cases, pseudomorphs etc. ? Proper identification of minerals is a profession. Of course, some part of the mineralogical species can be recognized with the naked eye (if well crystallized), but a large part can only be identified with some approximation and a limited degree of certainty, if no heavy weapons (XRD, SEM/EDX/WDX...) are allowed :>) It is e.g. quite impossible to recognize small grains of all kinds of sulphosalts without $$$$$ instruments. It is also very difficult to put some data in an expert system that have to do with complex experience, such as knowing that in dolomite of the Lengenbach Quarry (Switzerland), if your material comes from the southern part of the quarry, the gray sulphosalts on specimens that contain realgar are almost always sartorite (skleroclase) or baumbauerite, almost never dufrenoysite... this not being true for recently mined material from the central part of the quarry. How would you put that in an expert system ? One important criterion is the locality and the literature on it, but even that is not always enough. During many decades zeolite crystals of a famous Swiss locality, Gibels Bach, near Fiesch, Wallis, have been described as stilbite, even in professional literature and books (Parker's "Die Mineralien der Schweiz"), but a few years ago it was proven that those crystals are in fact stellerite. There is no way to tell that by any expert system that only contains the amateuristic means, without a petrographic microscope and/or XRD and/or SEM/EDX/WDX et al. This is my biggest frustration in my own hobby. Collectors of postage stamps have a much more easy life. They can recognize their specimens with knowledge and some very simple means... But don't give up : if that is our only frustration we are lucky people. Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, ?B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen ? MINERANT 2008? -? 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Pmodreski@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:44 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too few tests one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that require advanced equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield ambiguous results or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, crystal shape, and so on). One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical composition; X-ray diffraction). It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't have much utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, and then refer to books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple tests for chemical composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt minerals. But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one would devise these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery minerals". Just "IMHO"... Pete From rik.dillen at skynet.be Wed Dec 12 11:20:23 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Wed Dec 12 11:22:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F7B82.8060708@verizon.net> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> <475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> <475F7B82.8060708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000301c83cf4$0bf9b4a0$23ed1de0$@dillen@skynet.be> Ahaa... Don, thanks for the fan-mail (at least for our webmaster). Grts, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, ?B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen ? MINERANT 2008? -? 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of DonH Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 7:11 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Hi, By the way, for those interested, has anyone seen the list of software on this page? http://www.minerant.org/software.html best regards, Don -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Dec 12 12:13:42 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Dec 12 12:13:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F7B82.8060708@verizon.net> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o><475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net><475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> <475F7B82.8060708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005e01c83cfb$7e1c7070$6501a8c0@AxelHP> Don H wrote > By the way, for those interested, has anyone seen the list of > software on this page? > > http://www.minerant.org/software.html > Yes, Don, I have but that doesn't count since it's he website of my club ;-)))) The good stuff is: 1. the screensaver (if you're into fluorescence) 2. The MDB mineral database. I have it and use it regularly) 3. Chemistry formatter for those who even use formulas in their seasons greetings. Personally I think that large are macroscopic crystals of any mineral are easily recognized...they're the ones you were looking for when coming to the location that you're at. If you don't know what they are you're: 1. lost and at the wrong locality 2. digging at random locations for no purpose, which ain't good 3. a hillbilly digging an outhouse at a mineralogically interesting spot which is little less worrying than #2 Small, microscopic crystals can be hell to determine! You look at them under a microscope and you get a completely wrong idea about the luster and cleavage. Because they are thin or tiny the color differs from the bigger specimens. Look at the pseudobrookite that was discussed, an interesting example? You either know what you found with certainty or you don't. In the latter case certainty comes with analysis. Unless a good guess is satisfying for you. A good example of a finders nightmare are those small blue crystals that you may find on copper mine dumps... Is it posnjakite, linarite or wroewolfeite? Sometimes the posnjakite may be easily recognized by its crystal form but in most cases you wind up with a few flats of question marks. I have a friend who collects slag minerals from the Belgian Sclaigneaux site... We even made a CD on the subject. We spent hours trying to identify some of the minerals he dug up... At one time we were looking at his "unknowns". This pale yellow transparent hexagonal crystal... is it hydrocerussite? We thought so until we brought the hot tip of a soldering iron near it and saw (under the microscope) how it evaporated in no time. It was sulfur. Laurionite or paralaurionite? Lanarkite or aragonite? Looks difficult? OK, how about telling susannite and anglesite apart when the crystals are covered with a goethite coating. The coating is part of the specimens good looks so you don't want to remove it ;-))) It really becomes troublesome if the finder's ambition overshadows both his knowledge of mineralogy and his integrity... Is 90% sure enough or will 75% do? How many "first finds" of certain minerals at certain localities are mislabeled by ambitious amateurs? Anyone care to guess? I learned that people tend to become more careful and use discretion in determining minerals when they become more knowledgeable. People with little or no knowledge are usually the quickest to blurt out mineral names ;-)))) So yes, some of the software seems helpful but actually just increases uncertainty. Then again, if all mislabeled or uncertain specimens were magically removed from all collections there would be a lot of near empty display cases around. Cheers Axel From mineral.maertens at att.net Wed Dec 12 15:28:14 2007 From: mineral.maertens at att.net (Johan) Date: Wed Dec 12 15:28:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: <121220072328.22657.47606E8E00083AB30000588122218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C020A9B9D0A0E03D2040E9D0A020703@att.net> Did you look at http://www.rockhounds.com/rockshop/mineral_id/index.html MINERAL IDENTIFICATION KEY by Alan Plante & Donald Peck -- Johan Maertens From mineral.maertens at att.net Wed Dec 12 15:35:01 2007 From: mineral.maertens at att.net (Johan) Date: Wed Dec 12 15:35:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: <121220072335.11317.476070250004DB4C00002C3522218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C020A9B9D0A0E03D2040E9D0A020703@att.net> Horst, here is another link to a similar ID system http://www.minsocam.org/MSA/collectors_corner/id/mineral_id_keyi1.htm MINERAL IDENTIFICATION KEY II by Alan Plante, Donald Peck & David Von Bargen -- Johan Maertens From sicree at verizon.net Wed Dec 12 19:33:54 2007 From: sicree at verizon.net (Sicree, Andrew, Ph.D.) Date: Wed Dec 12 19:16:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Portable Raman Spectroscopy and XRF In-Reply-To: <200712130202.lBD22MM5023224@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Just a note about some technologies that can help ID minerals (in addition to X-ray diffraction): There are portable devices (hand-held gun-like equipment) that allow one to do Raman spectroscopy on rocks and minerals. And there are portable devices (hand-held gun-like equipment) that allow one to to X-ray fluorescence examinations of rocks and minerals (and metals, etc.). Raman spec units are good for many minerals - they give a signature-type spectrum that can be compared with a database via computer software. I've heard that they work well with silicates, oxides, phosphates, carbonates, etc., (that covers a big portion of the mineral world). Apparently, they don't work on minerals with highly metallic lusters (that means most of the sulfides). The XRF units give elemental data - that's helpful in IDing minerals. Between the two of them one could make big strides toward the identification of many a mineral... Theses hand-held units are nice, but the costs are high ($20,000 - $30,000 each?). Would be kinda neat to see someone bring one to a mineral show like Tucson... Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. Professional Mineralogist* P. O. Box 10664 State College PA 16805 (814) 867-6263 sicree@verizon.net *Providing professional mineralogical services including science writing; consulting services; identification of unknown objects; curation of mineral, fossil, and gem collections; design of mineralogical and geological displays; science demonstrations, and the creation of science educational programs. Ph.D. mineralogy and geochemistry, Penn State Univ. M.S. chemistry, Carnegie-Mellon Univ. B.S. chemistry and English, Carnegie-Mellon Univ. For more information, contact sicree@verizon.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Wed Dec 12 20:27:25 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 12 20:27:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: I took a look at that mineral identification key, and it really is pretty good, very well done. And as to what Andrew wrote, I agree, that those techniques have a great deal of potential. I've heard someone who works on the Raman spectra of minerals, talk about how portable Raman spectrometers may totally revolutionize mineral identification; point the instrument at the specimen and immediatley record a spectrum which it matches to a database and gives you an "almost" certainly correct identification. And yes, those portable XRF units are great too, especially for distinguishing minerals containing the heavy metals. I've never actually used one, but we used to have an earlier-generation, non-portable instrument like that in our lab at the USGS, and it was great; you could just place a sample on it without any kind of physical preparation, grinding or polishing, and you'd get a spectrum that would tell you (most of) what elements were present; great for distinguishing As minerals from V or Sb, Ni from Co minerals, and that sort of thing. Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 12 21:11:53 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 12 21:11:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS References: Message-ID: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> Pete, Expert systems require the raw facts about the subject matter, and their relationships, but the key is capturing the experience of many experts in how apply those factoids, and turning it into many more rules. You can hold an on-topic conversation with a good expert system. The key is having an interviewer available to capture knowledge from any living expert whenever they detect a discrepancy, and add it to the rulebase as more factoids. The raw data is just the fodder that lets you capture the knowledge and insight of many subject experts. Capturing the experiences of many experts is the key. I've met almost a handful of real expert systems. It is like going to a world class symposia and asking a question at a Birds-Of-A-Feather session. You either get a direct answer, or a dialogue that reaches concensus after several questions. A real expert system is smarter than any one of us if you stay on topic. I think most rockhounds would benefit from having an expert system available to them. Kreigh Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of > software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. > > There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too few tests > one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that require advanced > equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield ambiguous results > or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, > crystal shape, and so on). > > One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a > relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't > confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated > tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical > composition; X-ray diffraction). > > It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't have much > utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual > person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his > educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, and then refer to > books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many > cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those > advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, > refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple tests for chemical > composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt > minerals. > > But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one would devise > these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life > would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery > minerals". > > Just "IMHO"... Pete > From corson at infodyn.com Wed Dec 12 21:32:55 2007 From: corson at infodyn.com (Tom Corson) Date: Wed Dec 12 21:33:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <200712130202.lBD22MMC023224@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712130202.lBD22MMC023224@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <005f01c83d49$9d491ae0$610fa8c0@Grimble> I have the book, have read it, and as I posted on this list a few weeks ago, it is simply fantastic! The best new work in determinative mineralogy (for mere mortals) that I have seen in years! It is simply a "must have". Minsearch 4.00 is very good. It has most of what is being asked for in this tread in terms of functionality. I also have and use MineralDB (http://www.mineraldb.com/index.html), also very good, but somewhat pricy. There is a free demo of it available for download. FYI, if there really is a consensus that a new software app is needed for mineral identification, I too would be interested in contributing my expertise to such a project. I have been writing software for 38 years... PS: I have no commercial interest in the book whatsoever. I just think it's really an excellent work. ________________________________ Thomas W. Corson OBG International corson@infodyn.com 2435 E Mayview Drive 520-225-0244 Green Valley, AZ 85614 http://www.obgrocks.com World Class Minerals For World Class Collectors ________________________________ > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 18:44:43 -0800 > From: DonH > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: <475F4B1B.3080500@verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > Don, > > > > I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert > system software > > package to help with mineral identification. > > > Oh I agree! I was offering a "reality check" regarding what > it takes to ID most minerals. > > And on that note, Minsearch 4.00, the software that comes with Mineral > Identification: A Practical Guide for the Amateur > Mineralogist, recently published by Mineralogical Record, has > a lot of the search logic that people here have been talking > about (or does no one believe me???) The book itself has a > lot of information on how to ID minerals at home without > fancy equipment, though some chemicals are required for reagent tests. > > I'd like to see someone else who has the book and software, > and has used them, comment on it. I think it provides much > of what people have been asking about for years. > > And I really don't receive any proceeds from the sale of the > book (except a free copy). But i wouldn't have put my name > to the Afterword if I hadn't thought it would be very useful > to the collector community. > > > best, > Don > From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Thu Dec 13 05:13:05 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Thu Dec 13 06:15:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS References: <121220072335.11317.476070250004DB4C00002C3522218683269B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C020A9B9D0A0E03D2040E9D0A020703@att.net> Message-ID: <000c01c83d92$9987ea00$a250d0c4@federatiydq01o> To Axel, Bryan, Don, Earl, Jim, Johan, Kreigh, Pete, Rik, Steve and Tom (in alphabetical order) To everyone thanks a lot in discussing and adding your input to this fascinating (and many times, frustrating) subject. Many wise words have been spoken on various aspects of this subject. Now will have to spend some time this evening looking at the various recommended websites Regards, Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan" To: ; Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:35 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS > Horst, here is another link to a similar ID system > > http://www.minsocam.org/MSA/collectors_corner/id/mineral_id_keyi1.htm > > MINERAL IDENTIFICATION KEY II > by Alan Plante, Donald Peck & David Von Bargen > > > -- > > Johan Maertens > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.17/1179 - Release Date: > 09/12/2007 11:06 > > From Ted at crystalgems.com Thu Dec 13 06:46:00 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Thu Dec 13 06:46:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002901c83d96$e0c51420$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> OK. I think everyone and anyone would agree that an expert system would be of immense benefit. Getting there is the problem. Personal opinion time. Take Mindat.org for an example. Great idea, in fact a really terrific idea; Mindat took years and dedication to bring it to its current level of easy information access. It was not and is not an easy task. I am grateful that Mindat exists and I bless the original visionaries that brought it into existence. I spent the last twenty odd years of my career working in computers. As a team member and sometimes also as project manager I've worked on building expert systems. After the first time trying to build one it's a good thing I was paid. I sure didn't volunteer again. I've even argued with the boss when ordered to work on one. The problem? People have intuition and actively use intuition. Computers have none; and computer programs are notoriously difficult to build intuition with. It is may be called experience, but a lot of truth behind experience is how a person uses intuition with learned experience to mentally eliminate or pursue what seems to be on the surface, a logical train of thought. It's rarely logical. Yes, there are experts who can "interview" subject matter experts and tease out the hidden thoughts and actions that lead to a decision. I personally have witnessed millions (literally) of dollars of interviews that led nowhere. Why? People, have truly remarkable intelligence storage and processing systems. And people often make logical inferences buried in their subconscious that lead to visible decisions; these subconscious inferences are arduously difficult to commit to paper. Especially, when intuitive decisions are made, that have a real occurrence frequency of once or twice a year, or worse, decade. OK, NOW I'm going to climb far out on a limb: Now think about taking Mindat to the next level. That is; adding an expert system. Why Mindat? Well, to me it's a great mineral database that is open to the expert and amateur world input. Mindat brought mineral ID peer review to the common rockhound and expert alike. Perhaps, initially, we could add a decision tree section into every mineral family with subsections under every mineral. In there we can, individually and collectively, build the decision tree so necessary for an expert system. In these sections, fresh from identifying a new sample mineral, people can enter the decision pathway they followed. Also, there might be base decision trees already in the Mindat message boards. Just my mouth and mind running on, but there it is. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA, USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 12:12 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Pete, Expert systems require the raw facts about the subject matter, and their relationships, but the key is capturing the experience of many experts in how apply those factoids, and turning it into many more rules. You can hold an on-topic conversation with a good expert system. The key is having an interviewer available to capture knowledge from any living expert whenever they detect a discrepancy, and add it to the rulebase as more factoids. The raw data is just the fodder that lets you capture the knowledge and insight of many subject experts. Capturing the experiences of many experts is the key. I've met almost a handful of real expert systems. It is like going to a world class symposia and asking a question at a Birds-Of-A-Feather session. You either get a direct answer, or a dialogue that reaches concensus after several questions. A real expert system is smarter than any one of us if you stay on topic. I think most rockhounds would benefit from having an expert system available to them. Kreigh Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of > software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. > > There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too few tests > one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that require advanced > equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield ambiguous results > or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, > crystal shape, and so on). > > One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a > relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't > confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated > tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical > composition; X-ray diffraction). > > It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't have much > utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual > person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his > educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, and then refer to > books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many > cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those > advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, > refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple tests for chemical > composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt > minerals. > > But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one would devise > these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life > would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery > minerals". > > Just "IMHO"... Pete > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Dec 13 06:52:26 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 13 06:52:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS Message-ID: I'm learning a lot from these discussions, Kreigh, Ted, Don, and many others... I must admit, I had never heard of an "expert system" before; nor, Kreigh, also to admit, I'd never heard the expression, "birds-of-a-feather" discussion session. Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From buff1 at ptd.net Thu Dec 13 07:35:04 2007 From: buff1 at ptd.net (Dennis Buffenmyer) Date: Thu Dec 13 07:35:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <002901c83d96$e0c51420$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> <002901c83d96$e0c51420$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <47615128.7090001@ptd.net> T >OK, NOW I'm going to climb far out on a limb: > >Now think about taking Mindat to the next level. That is; adding an expert >system. Why Mindat? Well, to me it's a great mineral database that is open >to the expert and amateur world input. Mindat brought mineral ID peer review >to the common rockhound and expert alike. > >Perhaps, initially, we could add a decision tree section into every mineral >family with subsections under every mineral. In there we can, individually >and collectively, build the decision tree so necessary for an expert system. >In these sections, fresh from identifying a new sample mineral, people can >enter the decision pathway they followed. Also, there might be base decision >trees already in the Mindat message boards. > >Just my mouth and mind running on, but there it is. > >Ted Kowalski >Fredericksburg, VA, USA > > > > This is obviously just thinking through typing, but, I agree that mindat might be the best starting place to build onto. Perhaps the best thing would be to build into it a matter of probability. I.E. you know you have a specimen that is from locale xyz and it has a hexagonal crystal structure. Perhaps entering these two criteria alone would be enough to search the database to put a probability that the mineral is such; or with additional input criteria that would increase the probablity of being such. I suspect though, that what perhaps the concern is, the hope of finding a really rare mineral or new mineral. I.E. lets say that you have a hexagonal crystal from xyz local but xyz local is not known to have any hexagonal cystal system minerals, then, additional criteria would have to be entered to help increase the probability identification of said mineral. I like the idea of starting with mindat in that pictures are worth a thousand words, BUT, can be misleading. The case in point of course would have to be Mont St. Hilaire, where from a picture, it might be easy to mis-identify a gmelinite for a mal-formed catapleite or visa versa, in which the identification of the matrix rock would also be in question. I need to make sure that no one takes me for an experts opinion, as the experts have the tools at their disposal to make the determinative ID, but rather as a hobbyist who is among the group looking for such a tool that would be useful in our quest for greater knowledge. In thinking of this, it might be best when a question arises about the ID of a mineral when attempting to make your own ID, that on the label, ( here again, how many times has it been emphasised here, how important is it for the archiver ) that the specimen was purchased as such BUT you have reason to believe it "MIGHT" be such, based on the criteria that you have documented with the specimen. Or that you found such a specimen and believe it to be, abc based on the criteria you have listed. could only add to the provenance and future value of the specimen. Certainly it would be hoped that those who are classifying themselves as "professional" mineral dealers or mineral specialists are taking the measures needed to positively ID the specimens before charging exuberant prices for a guess. Perhaps this whole thing might best be summarized to leave it as... the specimen is labled as "abc" because we "believe" it to be "abc" based on xyz criteria...... humble offerings.... Dennis Buffenmyer From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 13 07:35:34 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Dec 13 07:35:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <000001c83cf4$0b470670$21d51350$@dillen@skynet.be> Message-ID: <243595.87789.qm@web34314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This is an important point. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use Mindat a lot. The main frustration I have with it is that when I call up a list of minerals from a given locality, then click on one of the minerals to get a description/pictures, I get a general description. What I really need is to know what that mineral looks like from that specific locality. The only way I can get that information now is if the locality has been written up in a journal I have access to. These are some of the "factoids" that have to be captured in an expert system, and it really takes identification tables to another level entirely. Jim Daly Rik Dillen wrote: I agree with Pete. For relatively easy cases you don't need artificial intelligence... you need experience. For difficult cases the type of expert systems we are talking about wouldn't work. Imagine that you would have to differentiate between all types of greenish minerals from the vicinity of Schwaz, Austria ? It's even sometimes very hard to identify them positively in the scanning electron microscope w/ EDX. And what about all kinds of (sub-microscopic) intergrowths, solid solution cases, pseudomorphs etc. ? Proper identification of minerals is a profession. Of course, some part of the mineralogical species can be recognized with the naked eye (if well crystallized), but a large part can only be identified with some approximation and a limited degree of certainty, if no heavy weapons (XRD, SEM/EDX/WDX...) are allowed :>) It is e.g. quite impossible to recognize small grains of all kinds of sulphosalts without $$$$$ instruments. It is also very difficult to put some data in an expert system that have to do with complex experience, such as knowing that in dolomite of the Lengenbach Quarry (Switzerland), if your material comes from the southern part of the quarry, the gray sulphosalts on specimens that contain realgar are almost always sartorite (skleroclase) or baumbauerite, almost never dufrenoysite... this not being true for recently mined material from the central part of the quarry. How would you put that in an expert system ? One important criterion is the locality and the literature on it, but even that is not always enough. --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Dec 13 08:14:22 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Dec 13 08:14:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINDAT In-Reply-To: <243595.87789.qm@web34314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <000001c83cf4$0b470670$21d51350$@dillen@skynet.be> <243595.87789.qm@web34314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200712131614.lBDGEUVa019182@bubbleator.drizzle.com> My ONLY beef with Mindat is that the locality list (by state or county) includes what appears to be a MAS/MILS dump with a bunch of sites that have no known minerals. If it could be cleaned up to only include sites that have a known list of minerals I would use it far more often. Or is there a way to get a list of sites that have mineral lists and not have to wade through the S&G pits etc.? At 07:35 AM 12/13/2007, you wrote: >This is an important point. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use >Mindat a lot. The main frustration I have with it is that when I >call up a list of minerals from a given locality, then click on one >of the minerals to get a description/pictures, I get a general >description. What I really need is to know what that mineral looks >like from that specific locality. The only way I can get that >information now is if the locality has been written up in a journal >I have access to. These are some of the "factoids" that have to be >captured in an expert system, and it really takes identification >tables to another level entirely. > Jim Daly Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Dec 13 08:23:22 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Dec 13 08:22:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <47615128.7090001@ptd.net> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> <002901c83d96$e0c51420$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> <47615128.7090001@ptd.net> Message-ID: <47615C7A.3020506@verizon.net> Dennis Buffenmyer wrote: >> Now think about taking Mindat to the next level. That is; adding an >> expert system. Why Mindat? Well, to me it's a great mineral database that is >> open to the expert and amateur world input. > I like the idea of starting with mindat in that pictures are worth a > thousand words, BUT, can be misleading. Greetings, Dennis brings up an important point, in fact it is the heart of the matter. The fact that mindat is open means that there are certain to be a lot of mistakes in it. The biggest issue is the photo section, because anyone can post photos of minerals that may likely be mislabeled. There is one recently retired dealer who was notorious for creative labeling; and since most of these were rare minerals, the customer has no way to check the ID using ordinary means. Also, as technology has become more sophisticated and mineral names have changed, many old labels that were once correct are no longer valid, not through anyone's bad intention but simply because the information has changed. The point of an expert system is that it is created and peer-reviewed by experts. In the past I had submitted corrections to things people pointed out to me on mindat that they suspected were in error, and after some discusions with the creator of the site, he admitted that it was never intended to be what it has become. It's a good starting point, but someone needs to validate each and every entry if that website would be a basis for an expert system. Now who's going to bell that cat. best regards, Don From Ted at crystalgems.com Thu Dec 13 08:57:51 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Thu Dec 13 08:58:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <47615C7A.3020506@verizon.net> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net><002901c83d96$e0c51420$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> <47615128.7090001@ptd.net> <47615C7A.3020506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <007101c83da9$4c7284c0$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> "The point of an expert system is that it is created and peer-reviewed by experts." Uh, no, that is a research paper; expert systems may utilize information from experts and usually try to have experts "test" them, but most expert systems are vetted normally in the tried and true program implementation process of distribution and logging errors and complaints to be fixed in a future program release. Experts, in general, hate every moment they spend working on expert systems. Expert systems, just by their nature are job threatening. Imagine trying to capture the hard earned experience, soul and essence of what an expert earns their pay for and then putting that knowledge into a computer. Many people see the program as a direct threat to their job security and I can't blame them. "It's a good starting point, but someone needs to validate each and every Entry" "Now who's going to bell that cat?" No matter where an expert system mineral program is developed this problem exists. It is not unique to a Mindat approach. Personally, I don't care where this challenge is taken, but it sure sounds like a staggeringly huge job and responsibility to me. Break the challenge into really small pieces and I think it is do-able. Make it one person's/organization role and I have my doubts. I'm not criticizing any one person's complaints about Mindat and I feel bad about using Don's comments, but Don's served my purpose best which is to point out that yes, your comments are all valid. Valid or not, the desire and benefit of an expert system are agreed on. The path is under question and rightfully so. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg VA USA --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Thu Dec 13 09:53:08 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Thu Dec 13 09:52:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <007101c83da9$4c7284c0$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net><002901c83d96$e0c51420$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1><47615128.7090001@ptd.net> <47615C7A.3020506@verizon.net> <007101c83da9$4c7284c0$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: Ted is right on concerning "Expert" systems. The development of any system is never done or completed until it gets to a point where it can be trusted. That is a subjective call and it depends on how much money and time is spent on it and what satisfaction is received from the result of the project. After 30+ years of working on such systems as an Aerospace Engineer in Ballistic Missiles I have never seen one that ever met all of its intended purposes, was completed on time or within budget. The projects just keep evolving sort of like raising a child from infancy. In my opinion you can build either a Volkswagen or a Cadillac system and they both would give you something but not all you may want. Just my humble opinion. Wes Lingerfelt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kowalski" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS > > > > > > > "The point of an expert system is that it is created and peer-reviewed by > experts." > > > > Uh, no, that is a research paper; expert systems may utilize information > from experts and usually try to have experts "test" them, but most expert > systems are vetted normally in the tried and true program implementation > process of distribution and logging errors and complaints to be fixed in a > future program release. Experts, in general, hate every moment they spend > working on expert systems. Expert systems, just by their nature are job > threatening. Imagine trying to capture the hard earned experience, soul > and > essence of what an expert earns their pay for and then putting that > knowledge into a computer. Many people see the program as a direct threat > to > their job security and I can't blame them. > > > > > > > > "It's a good starting point, but someone needs to validate each and every > > Entry" "Now who's going to bell that cat?" > > > > No matter where an expert system mineral program is developed this problem > exists. It is not unique to a Mindat approach. Personally, I don't care > where this challenge is taken, but it sure sounds like a staggeringly huge > job and responsibility to me. Break the challenge into really small pieces > and I think it is do-able. Make it one person's/organization role and I > have > my doubts. > > > > > > > > I'm not criticizing any one person's complaints about Mindat and I feel > bad > about using Don's comments, but Don's served my purpose best which is to > point out that yes, your comments are all valid. Valid or not, the desire > and benefit of an expert system are agreed on. The path is under question > and rightfully so. > > > > > > Ted Kowalski > > Fredericksburg VA USA > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From jeanne at jeannius.com Thu Dec 13 16:47:46 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Thu Dec 13 16:48:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? Message-ID: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> This ebay dealer is either trying to pull a fast one or someone pulled a fast one on him! Calling Blue Goldstone a rare mineral..... I get so annoyed when I see things like this. I remember a Chinese dealer selling a 'rare irridescent mineral' that was clearly silicone carbide crystals! Jeanne --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From betdav97 at aol.com Thu Dec 13 16:59:51 2007 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 13 17:00:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> References: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <8CA0C03C475CB35-13C-15A4@Webmail-mg10.sysops.aol.com> ? He also claims it is from Brazil. The Chinese bought the recipe for goldstone from the Monks who used to produce it and came up with formula. When the monks made it, only rarely did you see it in any color besides orange. Now that the Chinese have got the blue down, maybe they will start on the green, which always seemed to be the hardest to find. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Jeanne Rhodes-Moen To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 7:47 pm Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? This ebay dealer is either trying to pull a fast one or someone pulled a fast one on him! Calling Blue Goldstone a rare mineral..... ? ? I get so annoyed when I see things like this. I remember a Chinese dealer selling a 'rare irridescent mineral' that was clearly silicone carbide crystals!? ? Jeanne? ? ? ? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---? multipart/alternative? ?text/plain (text body -- kept)? ?text/html? ---? -- _______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rutile1 at carolina.rr.com Thu Dec 13 18:08:21 2007 From: rutile1 at carolina.rr.com (Todd Hamrick) Date: Thu Dec 13 18:08:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <8CA0C03C475CB35-13C-15A4@Webmail-mg10.sysops.aol.com> References: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> <8CA0C03C475CB35-13C-15A4@Webmail-mg10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4761E595.80509@carolina.rr.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PIECES-AZEZTULITE-from-NORTH-CAROLINA-MINE_W0QQitemZ140189448456QQihZ004QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This is the one that gets my goat.I live in NC and there are tons of this stuff around.Is it more than just milky quartz? Am I missing something? Todd From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Dec 13 18:21:20 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 13 18:21:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2007 7:09:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, rutile1@carolina.rr.com writes: http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PIECES-AZEZTULITE-from-NORTH-CAROLINA-MINE_W0QQitemZ1401 89448456QQihZ004QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This is the one that gets my goat.I live in NC and there are tons of this stuff around.Is it more than just milky quartz? Am I missing something? Todd These special metaphysical names for minerals are really something. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about this particular one, this is a hoot: "Azeztulite (or Satyaloka Azeztulite quartz) is a misleading trade name for inexpensive quartz that is sold at inflated prices for its alleged crystal healing effects. Quartz is one of the most common minerals in the Earth's continental crust. Azeztulite is an example of a fake mineral. Typical advertisements claim that Azeztulite originates from Satyaloka Monastery (or Mountains) in India, where monks collect it for its "special metaphysical properties". However, most sellers admit that their Azeztulite is not Indian but is from North Carolina, USA, where they claim, quartz with identical properties is found. Another claim says that the Azez aliens created the crystals in order to help humanity reach a new higher plane of spiritual enlightenment." Oh, and this gets even better, from a "Heaven & Earth LLC" website: "Chemically, Azeztulite tm is a variety of Quartz with a hexagonal (trigonal) crystal system and a hardness of 7. If it were not for its exceptional energies, probably no one would be interested in these rather nondescript stones. ..." (They sure got that right... part of it, at least.) Googling to read about this stuff is such fun! Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jeanne at jeannius.com Thu Dec 13 18:22:34 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Thu Dec 13 18:22:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <4761E595.80509@carolina.rr.com> References: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> <8CA0C03C475CB35-13C-15A4@Webmail-mg10.sysops.aol.com> <4761E595.80509@carolina.rr.com> Message-ID: <4761E8EA.30407@jeannius.com> that is pretty bad! btw. I emailed the guy with the blue goldstone and 'informed him that if someone told him it was a mineral, he'd been had!'...he wrote back and thanked me for the info....so either he didn't know or he's covering his tracks. The other one that bugs me is the chinese dealer selling rutilated quartz as "rare filiform titanium quartz"! Granted, rutile is Titanium Dioxide, but it's hardly rare! Todd Hamrick wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PIECES-AZEZTULITE-from-NORTH-CAROLINA-MINE_W0QQitemZ140189448456QQihZ004QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > This is the one that gets my goat.I live in NC and there are tons of > this stuff around.Is it more than just milky quartz? Am I missing > something? > Todd > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com* *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):* *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com* *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com* *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com* *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockcurrier at cs.com Thu Dec 13 18:45:10 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Thu Dec 13 18:42:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Yellow & green obsidian References: <200712120127.lBC1RJu8010854@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <012901c83dfb$589cb610$6901a8c0@rock3> I have never seen any obsidian other than black or a smoky color like you commonly encounter in "apache tears". The other colors of obsidian are to the best of my knowledge caused by inclusions in the obsidian that give rise to varieties like the "snow flake" from Utah, the "mahogany" reddish-brown obsidian or the various of the "rainbow" colors of sheen obsidians. These last can be many colors and quite striking reds, greens, violet, purple or the silver or golden sheen obsidians from Mexico. All of these obsidians are basically black and the colors are seen best when the obsidian has been cut more or less parallel or at a shallow angle down through the "color bands" in the obsidian. Much glass, especially the green glass produced in abundance in Mexico and other places is a pretty transparent green color and is commonly sold as green obsidian. I don't think there is any transparent natural green obsidian. At the GIA we were taught that the way you can definitely separate man made glass from natural materials is to look for completely round gas bubbles which they contend, or at least used to contend was the hall mark of man made glasses. I think this was based on the idea that flow of natural glasses in their molten state would stretch any included bubbles out of round. This is a rule of thumb that I have sometimes used to separate glass from natural materials. I am not sure that some natural glasses could not have round bubbles, but I don't think I have ever seen any. Certainly the vesicles in the obsidian from Little Lake, California that are commonly full of feldspar, cristobalite and fayalite are not completely round. Tektites are another category of natural glass, but they usually have distinctive surface features that set them apart from man made glasses. The transparent green of the moldavites from the Czech Republic are very distinctive when combined with their rough surface features. The black indochinites can be had so cheaply in bulk that I don't think it has ever occurred to anyone to try and go to the effort of trying to make them. There is a type of yellow tektite, sometimes transparent, from Libya, sometimes called Libyan desert glass that is authentic. Small pieces of this have been on the market for several years. Some of this material may have been marketed as yellow obsidian, but I would think that calling these yellow obsidian would cause them to sell for less on the market than calling them by their more commonly accepted name. Rock From corson at infodyn.com Thu Dec 13 20:21:59 2007 From: corson at infodyn.com (Tom Corson) Date: Thu Dec 13 20:22:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Mineral sale - 2 days left! Message-ID: <00fc01c83e08$de8185f0$610fa8c0@Grimble> Hi all, Just a brief reminder that there are only 2 days left on the Grand Opening sale I am running for my new online mineral store at http://www.obgrocks.com/ Everything - tools, accessories (bases and stands), and all the specimens (several hundred) are all 15% off through midnight Saturday, 12/15/07. Response has been great, but there are still a great many of nice pieces still available. There are specimens online starting at $5 and up! It's still not to late to order that Christmas gift and have it arrive in time! Thanks for you support and Happy Holidays! Tom Corson _____________________________ Thomas W. Corson OBG International corson@infodyn.com 2435 E Mayview Drive 520-225-0244 Green Valley, AZ 85614 http://www.obgrocks.com World Class Minerals For World Class Collectors ________________________________ From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 13 20:56:27 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 13 20:57:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Magma may be melting Greenland's ice Message-ID: <47620CF8.4F30@Tomaszewski.net> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22246005/ From kcbaran at arczip.com Thu Dec 13 21:50:24 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Thu Dec 13 21:58:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Yellow & green obsidian In-Reply-To: <012901c83dfb$589cb610$6901a8c0@rock3> References: <200712120127.lBC1RJu8010854@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <012901c83dfb$589cb610$6901a8c0@rock3> Message-ID: <476219A0.4020002@arczip.com> So, what is the inclusion that causes mahogany obsidian? I have gathered some from Glass Butte Oregon that is about 90% mahogony and 10% black. I have also gathered some that is 33% each of gold sheen/mahogany/rainbow. All from Glass Butte. Chuck Rock Currier wrote: >I have never seen any obsidian other than black or a smoky color like you >commonly encounter in "apache tears". The other colors of obsidian are to >the best of my knowledge caused by inclusions in the obsidian that give rise >to varieties like the "snow flake" from Utah, the "mahogany" reddish-brown >obsidian or the various of the "rainbow" colors of sheen obsidians. These >last can be many colors and quite striking reds, greens, violet, purple or >the silver or golden sheen obsidians from Mexico. All of these obsidians are >basically black and the colors are seen best when the obsidian has been cut >more or less parallel or at a shallow angle down through the "color bands" >in the obsidian. Much glass, especially the green glass produced in >abundance in Mexico and other places is a pretty transparent green color and >is commonly sold as green obsidian. I don't think there is any transparent >natural green obsidian. > >At the GIA we were taught that the way you can definitely separate man made >glass from natural materials is to look for completely round gas bubbles >which they contend, or at least used to contend was the hall mark of man >made glasses. I think this was based on the idea that flow of natural >glasses in their molten state would stretch any included bubbles out of >round. This is a rule of thumb that I have sometimes used to separate glass >from natural materials. I am not sure that some natural glasses could not >have round bubbles, but I don't think I have ever seen any. Certainly the >vesicles in the obsidian from Little Lake, California that are commonly full >of feldspar, cristobalite and fayalite are not completely round. > >Tektites are another category of natural glass, but they usually have >distinctive surface features that set them apart from man made glasses. The >transparent green of the moldavites from the Czech Republic are very >distinctive when combined with their rough surface features. The black >indochinites can be had so cheaply in bulk that I don't think it has ever >occurred to anyone to try and go to the effort of trying to make them. > >There is a type of yellow tektite, sometimes transparent, from Libya, >sometimes called Libyan desert glass that is authentic. Small pieces of this >have been on the market for several years. Some of this material may have >been marketed as yellow obsidian, but I would think that calling these >yellow obsidian would cause them to sell for less on the market than calling >them by their more commonly accepted name. > >Rock > > > > From lukasminerals at iburst.co.za Thu Dec 13 22:14:31 2007 From: lukasminerals at iburst.co.za (Luka Berkovic) Date: Thu Dec 13 22:15:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD Message-ID: <000001c83e18$97814db0$2005fea9@luka160f1f5612> Hi, is anyone interested in the following, please email me for prices and pics!!! * Ajoite and lots of copper inclusion, meaning its from a very early find, its not everyday you get offered one of these!!! The second quartz crystal is zoned, and has a Epidote layer, which gives it more visual impact!!! 11 x 8 x 6cm!!! * very good specimen of Hematite with Descloizite, from N'chwaning, Kuruman, it's a very nice specimen!! All hematite crystals are terminated!!! 3 x 3 x 3cm!!! * Ettringite from Kuruman, this is a very old specimen, they are pretty hard to come by in this size and colour!!! 3.5 x 0.6cm!!! * Aquamarine from Erongo, all fully terminated crystals, with excellent colour that cannot be seen in the pictures!!! And it has some quartz on it!!! 5 x 2.5 x 2.5cm!! * Aquamrine from Erongo, with such a beautiful colour, also fully terminated with feldspar and schorl!!!4.5 x 3 x 3.5cm!!! * Ajoite from Messina with a Epidote covering on the back!!! 5 x 2.5 x 2.5cm!! you can see the colour is amazing!!! And it has clarity which is pretty unusual for Ajoite!!! * Manganite crystals from Kuruman, its pretty rare stuff, mostly likely to be bought by a collector who collects rare material!! It comes from N'chwaning and is on a calcite matrix!!!5 x 4 x 1cm!! * Hydroappohylite from N'chwaning, it has a very nice green colour to it!!! 6 x 5 x 3cm!!! * a very nice silver Topaz from Klein Spitjkoppe, Namibia!! It is a very attractive specimen and its on a good feldspar matrix!!! 6.5 x 5 x 4cm!!! * this is an amazing Ajoite floater specimen from Messina, great colours and copper inclusions with Epidote on the back!!!5.5 x 3.5 x 3.5cm!!! * A very good small Aquamarine specimen from Erongo, with a bit of feldspar!!! 4 x 4 x 2cm!!! * Another excellent specimen from Erongo, there is quartz and Schorl!!! 5 x 3 x 3cm!!! * Aquamarine Var. Beryl, this is an Ex Uli Bahmann specimen and came out of the Recent find at Erongo, Namibia, the pictures do not show the true Colour, its has a very nice green, blue colour to it and it sits on a Schorl matrix with very fine sprays!! 6 x 4.5 x 3cm!!! a very good specimen!!! Please email me at lukasminerals@iburst.co.za Thanks Luka --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at mlce.net Fri Dec 14 00:27:57 2007 From: john at mlce.net (john dach) Date: Fri Dec 14 00:27:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> References: <001f01c83bb1$7f01be50$9c4ed0c4@federatiydq01o> <475E2606.6030102@verizon.net> <475F3555.568D@Tomaszewski.net> <475F6040.38DA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Sounds like a pretty good grant proposal!!!!!!!!!! Anyone out there knowledgeable about writing grants?? John Dach >Bryan, > >Inference engines are available both commercially and via open source. >That is actually the easy part, and little to no coding would be needed. > >The hard part is constructing the rule/knowledge base that the engine >works against. > > If the formula is Si02 then the mineral is Quartz. > If the mineral is Quartz then the formula is SiO2. > >Every datum about every mineral needs to essentially be turned into >trivia and encoded in a format like the symantic web, with Resource >Descriptor statements, and Ontology Language definitions (and their >relationships). You also need all the IF/THEN rules about how to >identify a mineral, and what each property of a mineral is. > >Then you simply tell the inference engine the goal is to identify a >mineral, and it does the rest by 'learning' from the rulebase. > >If the expert system is not producing correct results, then you need to >add more rules to the database, not write code. Inference engines have >gotten pretty good over the past 25 some years. > >When an expert system asks you a question you can respond with WHY and >get an explanation that it builds from the rules it has processed to >reach that question, on its way to the goal. You can ask HOW to learn >what you need to do to answer the question. So many factoids. > >I had some discussions with the IMA earlier this year trying to interest >them in making an expert system. Their response boiled down to "We have >no problems identifying minerals, why would we need an expert system?". >Capturing all the knowledge about all the recognized minerals, from many >experts, and making it available to anyone, was an insufficient answer. > >The best expert systems will even let you define goals by asking >questions about the subject matter. They may ask you some questions >back, but they usually can produce a reasonable, factual answer, and >justify/explain it. > >I would love to find a sponsor organization/university/business willing >to take on this effort as open source so we all can use it. Someone with >a deep pocket will eventually figure out that being the world's best >mineralogist (and probably geologist too) will make money, and we will >have to pay for access. I also want to help. > >If it is not grown, it has to be mined. There is a huge amount of >knowledge about what is mined. I would like to see it preserved. > >I want an expert system that can mine all the knowledge about all the >known minerals (and their geology) and share it with me. > >Kreigh > > > > >J Bryan Kramer wrote: >> >> Well if you experts could come up with a key structure/flow path then it >> would probably be trivial to code. I'd certainly volunteer coding time, but > > I'm not up to doing the underlaying logic. >> >> BK >> >> On Dec 11, 2007 8:18 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >> >> > Don, >> > >> > I'm with Horst on this one. I too would like an expert system software >> > package to help with mineral identification. It would have a knowledge >> > base of the 4,000+ known minerals and an inference engine that could >> > play '20 questions' with me and get me close to an identification. >> > >> > I expect it would ask some questions I couldn't answer (I don't have >> > easy access to XRD for example), some questions that might take me a >> > while and some labwork (does it contain Antimony?), and easy questions >> > (streak, hardness, specific gravity, etc). >> > >> > The software would obviously need to capture the knowledge of many >> > experts. There would have to be a way to teach it about newly discovered >> > minerals. It should also allow lookup by mineral or group, like mindat >> > and webmineral. >> > >> > Hopefully it would ask enough questions I can answer to make a probable >> > identification. More likely it would give me a short list of possible > > > minerals (or a group) and tell me what tests I would need to perform to >> > distinguish them. >> > >> > It would be like having a team of expert mineralogists guiding me thru >> > an identification. >> > >> > Kreigh >> > >> > >> > >> > DonH wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Horst, >> > > >> > > Having contributed to two recently published books on mineralogy, I can >> > > tell you that software for determinative mineralogy won't always get you >> > > far, depending on the type of minerals you are trying to identify, and >> > > how exact you want the ID to be; e.g., will you be satisfied with the >> > > group name (e.g., apatite) or do you need to know the exact species >> > > within the group. Also, will you be satisfied with 5 or 6 minerals it >> > > could be or do you absolutely need to know the exact mineral. I think >> > > you are someone who collects micromounts and rare species. As you >> > > probably know, there are well over 4,000 valid species and thousands of >> > > varieties; many of these will be very difficult to identify. >> > > >> > > In Geology 101, we give the students a tray of minerals to ID by color, >> > > streak, hardness, cleavage, luster, etc. These are all unique and are >> > > all common rock-forming minerals. In mineralogy lab, the first day, >> > > they do the same exercise, except a few of the minerals are very similar >> > > and cannot be identified by determinative properties. Then we introduce >> > > them to refractive index, relief, pleochroism, optic class, etc., by >> > > which they can identify many more minerals. After that we give them an >> > > exercise in which they can identify 6 out of 8 mineral grains--assuming >> > > they have been paying attention--but the last two have such similar >> > > optical properties that they can't be identified with certainty. After >> > > that they learn the principles of EDS, XRD, etc. >> > > >> > > This book recently published by the Mineralogical Record contains a lot >> > > of information on how to ID minerals at home. >> > > >> > > http://www.minrec.org/bookdetail.asp?id=48 >> > > >> > > (I contributed to the book but receive no compensation for sales). The >> > > book does have a disk with useful software on it, but the reader still >> > > needs to do some analytical work in the kitchen first. Color is a very >> > > variable property, and many silicate minerals have a colorless streak. >> > > However, specific gravity and optical properties add far more value to >> > > the ID process. The book gives instructions on how to obtain those >> > > values, at least to 1 or 2 decimal places. >> > > >> > > There are plenty of minerals that require multiple advanced analytical >> > > techniques to ID. For example, telling apart all the amphiboles >> > > requires both chemistry and structure, and then there is still some >> > > interpretation and assumption involved (one reason being that electron >> > > beam instruments can't measure (OH-), so it must be assumed by >> > > difference). Some of them are distinctive, but many are not, and it > > > > would be fruitless to try to positively identify all the amphiboles by >> > > simple determinative techniques. On a similar note, I recently analyzed >> > > eight samples of fluorescent apatites from Franklin & Sterling Hill, NJ. >> > > All but one were mixed phosphate/arsenate apatites, and I expected at >> > > least 2 or 3 of them to be the same, but they were all different. The >> > > microprobe operator had a fit when I asked him to configure a scan for >> > > zinc and lead in addition to the usual suspects, and asked me three >> > > times if I was sure there was significant arsenic (I finally had to show >> > > him the Franklin & Sterling Hill apatites in the Handbook of Mineralogy >> > > to prove they really exist). When all was done, I was getting about >> > > 95-98% weight totals, which I usually don't accept as valid, but in this >> > > case it means that 2-5 weight% of the specimens were elements for which >> > > we didn't even analyze. After he corrected the data for drift and ran >> > > the results through the microprobe software, the printout gave an > > > > identity for a mineral I've never heard about. The calculated >> > > stoichiometry was so bad that it simply cannot exist in this >> > > manifestation of the universe. I have to resort to doing the >> > > calculations by hand. In the end, I can provide a first-order >> > > approximation of which 2 or 3 specific minerals each one might be, but >> > > until I get some help from someone who is familiar with analyzing these >> > > species (after all, I'm still a student, and these are somewhat >> > > difficult), I refuse to try to assign a positive ID. Yet you will find >> > > any number of people who would look at these, squint, rub their chin, >> > > hold a finger in the air, and declare a definite identity. The most >> > > difficult thing for a collector or geologist to say is "I have no idea," >> > > but ironically it is the phrase that should be uttered more than any >> > > other. Sometimes you just can't tell without instrument analysis, and >> > > sometimes, not even then. >> > > >> > > Okay, back to the question at hand: how much dirty work are you willing >> > > to do on the specimen, and how willing are you to accept uncertain >> > results? >> > > >> > > Fondly yours, >> > > Don >> > > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From john at mlce.net Fri Dec 14 00:41:11 2007 From: john at mlce.net (john dach) Date: Fri Dec 14 00:40:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: And for "new Comers" or generally involved folks, verses Experts, this sort of assistance could get them more involved. If some of the more unusual specimens are just too difficult to get identified, maybe that might ok, as long as the vast majority of of specimen identification works. I know a good number of folks that would be interested in such a "system". John Dach >Pete, > >Expert systems require the raw facts about the subject matter, and their >relationships, but the key is capturing the experience of many experts >in how apply those factoids, and turning it into many more rules. > >You can hold an on-topic conversation with a good expert system. The key >is having an interviewer available to capture knowledge from any living >expert whenever they detect a discrepancy, and add it to the rulebase as >more factoids. The raw data is just the fodder that lets you capture the >knowledge and insight of many subject experts. Capturing the experiences >of many experts is the key. > >I've met almost a handful of real expert systems. It is like going to a >world class symposia and asking a question at a Birds-Of-A-Feather >session. You either get a direct answer, or a dialogue that reaches >concensus after several questions. A real expert system is smarter >than any one of us if you stay on topic. > >I think most rockhounds would benefit from having an expert system >available to them. > >Kreigh > > > > > >Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: >> >> I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of >> software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. >> >> There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too >>few tests >> one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that >>require advanced >> equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield >>ambiguous results >> or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, >> crystal shape, and so on). >> >> One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a >> relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't >> confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated >> tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical >> composition; X-ray diffraction). >> >> It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't >>have much >> utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual >> person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his >> educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, >>and then refer to >> books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many >> cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those >> advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, >> refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple >>tests for chemical >> composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt >> minerals. >> >> But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one >>would devise >> these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life >> would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery >> minerals". >> >> Just "IMHO"... Pete >> > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rockcurrier at cs.com Fri Dec 14 03:20:22 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Fri Dec 14 03:20:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cave Pearls References: <200712130202.lBD22MMC023224@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002601c83e43$52512640$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Larry said: Does anyone know where this person can obtain (legally) Cave Pearls? I didn't think it was illegal to deal in cave formations though considering the lack of them being advertised for sale on the net it would be easy to think them illegal. Certainly collecting them is anathema to various spelunking societies. However not all cave pearls come from caves. Considering how many cave formations are being collected and sold in China and imported into the US I would think that would be your best source. Probably an email to someone in one of the state geological surveys requesting a source might get you what you are looking for. I would suggest that you might contact Nengyong,Hu of the Geological Survey in Hunan hunengyong65@hotmail.com. He might be able put you in contact with some suppliers of Chinese cave pearls. You can tell him I sent you. In the course of our normal business from time to time we have bought accumulations of old collectors and have occasionally had cave pearls and one time had a complete "nest" of them. We have none in stock now. I'm sure you know how nondescript they look when they are dry and out of a cave like environment. Some even come from man made "caves". They are usually aragonite. Below is a description of cave pearls that you may find interesting. Canada British Colombia, Riondel, Bluebell Mine. The Bluebell mine was a large lead/zinc mine and the deposit has been worked for more than 100 years. It is better known for its arsenopyrite specimens than for its aragonite. However, "Aragonite was precipitated during mining operations from hot springs rich in CO2 occurring in the mine. It crystallized quickly, forming stalactites and large globular masses. Two-centimeter spheres of aragonite (so-called cave pearls) which crystallized about particles of sand were recovered from the floors of the mine drifts. They had been kept in constant motion and thus separated from one another by the continuous vibration of the mining operations."1 1 Mineralogical Record, Vol.8, 1977, p35. Rock Currier From jsmall47 at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 03:30:16 2007 From: jsmall47 at earthlink.net (Jim Small) Date: Fri Dec 14 03:30:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: goldstone (was scammer or gullible) In-Reply-To: <200712140202.lBE22UeV008933@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712140202.lBE22UeV008933@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071214062318.028a3048@pop.earthlink.net> Jeanne and Dave - Goldstone has a really interesting history, going back to the Renaissance in Europe. The basics are Italians first, then Japanese, now Chinese. As to types; Gold (reddish), blue and green are commonly available in largish chunks. Previously, the green was only around in "pancake" form, but it is now, and has been for several years, available in chunks of many pounds. In the 1960s, when the Japanese were hitting their stride in the manufacture of goldstone glass you could also get black, but I haven't seen any of that material for a couple of decades now. KOR, Jim Small Small Wonders Lapidary Church Hill, TN From tjokela at execulink.com Fri Dec 14 06:42:21 2007 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Fri Dec 14 06:44:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? References: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> <8CA0C03C475CB35-13C-15A4@Webmail-mg10.sysops.aol.com><4761E595.80509@carolina.rr.com> <4761E8EA.30407@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <002701c83e5f$88b92770$6400a8c0@Junior> eBay, I read in the business section the other day, is doing a big website revamp and looking to make the whole customer experience smoother and easier. Included in this is a crackdown on fraud and deception. I'd never buy on eBay, but if I did I'd work hard to bring to their attention just how bad the mineral section of eBay is. Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Business: http://www.element51.com Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 14 06:08:45 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 14 07:06:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Yellow & green obsidian In-Reply-To: <476219A0.4020002@arczip.com> References: <200712120127.lBC1RJu8010854@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <012901c83dfb$589cb610$6901a8c0@rock3> <476219A0.4020002@arczip.com> Message-ID: <200712141506.lBEF6V8j017202@bubbleator.drizzle.com> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian "Pure obsidian is usually dark in appearance, though the color varies depending on the presence of impurities. Iron and magnesium typically give the obsidian a dark green to brown to black color. " I vote for magnesium = black and iron = brown. The "dark green" color is bogus. I thought this was bloody interesting: http://www.clarkson.edu/camp/reports/Obsidian_Second%20Article.pdf I think it's hilarious that these guys used XRD SEM TEM etc. to show what the paleoindians knew at least 10,000 years ago - obsidian is mechanically pretty gosh darn strong :D And if you want to be disgusted by yet another huckster passing off glass as obsidian: http://www.ebonedesigns.com/stone.php At 09:50 PM 12/13/2007, you wrote: >So, what is the inclusion that causes mahogany obsidian? I have >gathered some from Glass Butte Oregon that is about 90% mahogony and >10% black. I have also gathered some that is 33% each of gold >sheen/mahogany/rainbow. All from Glass Butte. Chuck Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 14 07:19:41 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 14 07:20:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <002701c83e5f$88b92770$6400a8c0@Junior> References: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> <8CA0C03C475CB35-13C-15A4@Webmail-mg10.sysops.aol.com> <4761E595.80509@carolina.rr.com> <4761E8EA.30407@jeannius.com> <002701c83e5f$88b92770$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <200712141520.lBEFKFD0026692@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I deleted my eBay account after some Germans hacked it and started spamming from it. The last thing I bought on there was Mexican royal velvet obsidian, advertised as two 12 oz. chunks, what I received was the ends of small pieces that had already been slabbed down to nothing, the largest could have gone 4 oz. but I doubt it was that big. I should have known better, I guess. Seems the seller has a habit of lying about just about everything he sells on there. And giving the exact same feedback to anyone who complains: "THE WORST KIND OF EBAYER!!!" (caps his, not mine, seems his capslock key is broken). I had thought to delete my account back then but it seemed to be too big a hassle (it is, and they actually take _weeks_ to delete it, when it should take a few seconds). The best way to deal with eBay is to stay the hell away from it altogether. That said, I bought a Foredom TX-300 (the gorilla of flexshaft machines, IMHO) from there as a "guest" (no registration required) a month ago. It shipped directly from the factory and the price was over $100 less than the MSRP, and around $50 less than any internet dealer was asking for it. Of course, I verified that it was factory direct before I bought it. At 06:42 AM 12/14/2007, you wrote: >eBay, I read in the business section the other day, is doing a big >website revamp and looking to make the whole customer experience >smoother and easier. Included in this is a crackdown on fraud and deception. > >I'd never buy on eBay, but if I did I'd work hard to bring to their >attention just how bad the mineral section of eBay is. > >Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com >Business: http://www.element51.com >Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Jeanne at jeannius.com Fri Dec 14 07:38:53 2007 From: Jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Fri Dec 14 07:38:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <200712141520.lBEFKFD0026692@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: I've actually had a lot of good luck buying on ebay...only a couple duds....but I often buy from estate dealers rather than stone dealers...I often get better deals, and I do my best to make a visual evaluation. I've gotten some cool stuff that's been mismarked, incl. gem silica and Death Valley Plume agate! I've been considering selling off a bunch of my norwegian minerals I brought back from there, only problem is whether or not I can still identify them! Jeanne On 12/14/07 10:19 AM, "Tim Fisher" wrote: > I deleted my eBay account after some Germans hacked it and started > spamming from it. The last thing I bought on there was Mexican royal > velvet obsidian, advertised as two 12 oz. chunks, what I received was > the ends of small pieces that had already been slabbed down to > nothing, the largest could have gone 4 oz. but I doubt it was that > big. I should have known better, I guess. Seems the seller has a > habit of lying about just about everything he sells on there. And > giving the exact same feedback to anyone who complains: "THE WORST > KIND OF EBAYER!!!" (caps his, not mine, seems his capslock key is > broken). I had thought to delete my account back then but it seemed > to be too big a hassle (it is, and they actually take _weeks_ to > delete it, when it should take a few seconds). The best way to deal > with eBay is to stay the hell away from it altogether. > > That said, I bought a Foredom TX-300 (the gorilla of flexshaft > machines, IMHO) from there as a "guest" (no registration required) a > month ago. It shipped directly from the factory and the price was > over $100 less than the MSRP, and around $50 less than any internet > dealer was asking for it. Of course, I verified that it was factory > direct before I bought it. > > From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Fri Dec 14 09:07:10 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Fri Dec 14 09:07:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] [AD] MasMils/PLUS on eBay In-Reply-To: <8C9E2E27DB1E406-8C8-BB1@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi><471A9259.4CB3@Tomaszewski.net> <8C9E2E27DB1E406-8C8-BB1@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <002b01c83e73$c3f05d90$6501a8c0@okapi> Hi guys... I've got a bunch of MasMils/PLUS mine location disks up on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130183262649 What better stocking stuffer could there be? (Other than that nice Trumbull scheelite I didn't win yesterday!) Gary Brown http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of the MasMils/PLUS Mine location disk. From pmodreski at aol.com Fri Dec 14 09:28:37 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 14 09:28:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? - one more re. azeztulite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA0C8DE549C0B4-244-7FBF@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com> Hi, List folks, I can resist revisiting "azeztulite" one more time.? I just looked up a paragraph I wanted to share, from the "Metaphysical Guide to Tucson", a free distribution booklet they have available in magazine racks each year?during the Tucson shows; the New Age alternative to the regular Tucson Show Guide printed by Colorado Stone.? I had remembered this one particularly remarkable paragraph about one of the "energy minerals" and especially the way it described the locality at which it was found:? "a rockhound's garage".? And of all things, this was, in fact, about none other than our same good friend, azeztulite.? Here's the beginning of the paragraph, and this is from the 2004 edition of the Guide: "Azeztulite is a form of Quartz with unusually high vibrational energies.? It was orginally discovered in North Carolina around 1976, but lay dormant in a rockhound's garage for over twenty-five years.? Later an additional deposit was discovered in Vermont.? Azeztulite came to light as the result of a prophetic vision and communication experienced by... " [I'll leave it at this; the section on azeztulite goes on for about 7 more paragraphs.] (My apologies to anyone on the List who is serious about these things, and I don't mean to offend anyone by?the humor I see in this;?these are of course just my own personal views about such matters.) Pete In a message dated 12/13/2007 7:09:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, rutile1@carolina.rr.com writes: http://cgi.ebay.com/4-PIECES-AZEZTULITE-from-NORTH-CAROLINA-MINE_W0QQitemZ1401 89448456QQihZ004QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This is the one that gets my goat.I live in NC and there are tons of this stuff around.Is it more than just milky quartz? Am I missing something? Todd ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Fri Dec 14 09:40:20 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 14 09:40:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] one more re. azeztulite, P.S. oops In-Reply-To: <8CA0C8DE549C0B4-244-7FBF@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA0C8DE549C0B4-244-7FBF@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CA0C8F88500D0C-244-807D@FWM-D37.sysops.aol.com> Good grief, my apology, I really did [attempt to] proofread that post before I sent it, but as you can tell since I did "revisit" and post this, I obviously "can't" resist it, not "can".? Sorry for the typo. I can resist revisiting "azeztulite" Pete ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From spocksrocks at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 12:16:44 2007 From: spocksrocks at hotmail.com (Scotts Rock & Gem) Date: Fri Dec 14 12:16:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD References: <000001c83e18$97814db0$2005fea9@luka160f1f5612> Message-ID: Hi Luka: I'm not all that interested in collectors specimens, because they are often a bit pricey, but was wondering if you are a mineral dealer, and if so, what kind of wholesale material do you have available? Thanks Warm Regards - Scott Blair Scott's Rock & Gem Talent, Oregon, USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Luka Berkovic" To: Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] AD > Hi, is anyone interested in the following, please email me for prices and > pics!!! > > > > * Ajoite and lots of copper inclusion, meaning its from a very early > find, its not everyday you get offered one of these!!! The second quartz > crystal is zoned, and has a Epidote layer, which gives it more visual > impact!!! 11 x 8 x 6cm!!! > * very good specimen of Hematite with Descloizite, from N'chwaning, > Kuruman, it's a very nice specimen!! All hematite crystals are > terminated!!! > 3 x 3 x 3cm!!! > * Ettringite from Kuruman, this is a very old specimen, they are > pretty hard to come by in this size and colour!!! 3.5 x 0.6cm!!! > * Aquamarine from Erongo, all fully terminated crystals, with > excellent colour that cannot be seen in the pictures!!! And it has some > quartz on it!!! 5 x 2.5 x 2.5cm!! > * Aquamrine from Erongo, with such a beautiful colour, also fully > terminated with feldspar and schorl!!!4.5 x 3 x 3.5cm!!! > * Ajoite from Messina with a Epidote covering on the back!!! 5 x 2.5 x > 2.5cm!! you can see the colour is amazing!!! And it has clarity which is > pretty unusual for Ajoite!!! > * Manganite crystals from Kuruman, its pretty rare stuff, mostly > likely to be bought by a collector who collects rare material!! It comes > from N'chwaning and is on a calcite matrix!!!5 x 4 x 1cm!! > * Hydroappohylite from N'chwaning, it has a very nice green colour to > it!!! 6 x 5 x 3cm!!! > * a very nice silver Topaz from Klein Spitjkoppe, Namibia!! It is a > very attractive specimen and its on a good feldspar matrix!!! 6.5 x 5 x > 4cm!!! > * this is an amazing Ajoite floater specimen from Messina, great > colours and copper inclusions with Epidote on the back!!!5.5 x 3.5 x > 3.5cm!!! > * A very good small Aquamarine specimen from Erongo, with a bit of > feldspar!!! 4 x 4 x 2cm!!! > * Another excellent specimen from Erongo, there is quartz and > Schorl!!! 5 x 3 x 3cm!!! > * Aquamarine Var. Beryl, this is an Ex Uli Bahmann specimen and came > out of the Recent find at Erongo, Namibia, the pictures do not show the > true > Colour, its has a very nice green, blue colour to it and it sits on a > Schorl > matrix with very fine sprays!! 6 x 4.5 x 3cm!!! a very good specimen!!! > > > > Please email me at lukasminerals@iburst.co.za > > > > Thanks > > > > Luka > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From spocksrocks at hotmail.com Fri Dec 14 13:14:26 2007 From: spocksrocks at hotmail.com (Scotts Rock & Gem) Date: Fri Dec 14 13:14:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD References: <000001c83e18$97814db0$2005fea9@luka160f1f5612> Message-ID: Oops - sorry list for the personal post! Warm Regards - Scott Blair From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Fri Dec 14 18:37:31 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Fri Dec 14 18:36:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Jewelry Business for Sale Message-ID: FOR SALE: TWO HANDS GALLERY & STUDIO 175 Pomeroy Ave. Pismo Beach, CA 93449. An Upscale Jewelry store, since 1992 in downtown Pismo Beach. A dear friend finds herself in the unfortunate position of having to close her business. Located in the Pismo Galleria Mall near the pier of Pismo Beach the business must close due to the loss of lease. Major construction and a change of ownership are under way at the Galleria. This is a re-locatable business with $100,000+ in inventory that catered to the tourist trade consisting of semi-precious rings, necklaces, bracelets, and earrings with Sterling settings. Also, Original design jewelry in amethyst -freshwater pearls - Turquoise etc, signed Acoma Pottery, Ironwood carvings, music CD's and collectibles. Includes five halogen glass display towers, five large display cases and a sales counter and more. $58,000 firm. Everything goes including all fixtures. For information or questions please contact Roberta Miller at 805-459-9554. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Dec 14 20:03:14 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Dec 14 20:03:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <476351FF.A1C@Tomaszewski.net> There are a number of 'expert systems' that cover (roughly) the most common minerals (10-20% of all minerals). They are called 'Field Guides'. Each Field Guide is written by a different author, and each takes a different approach to identifying minerals. Most Rockhounds use more than one Field Guide. They work most of the time -- unusual minerals really are rare. I'm looking for an Expert System that knows about all the common minerals from many sources, and has at least a knowledgable awareness of the uncommon minerals; I want an expert digital advisor that can teach me shortcuts to mineral identification. Kreigh john dach wrote: > > And for "new Comers" or generally involved folks, verses Experts, > this sort of assistance could get them more involved. If some of the > more unusual specimens are just too difficult to get identified, > maybe that might ok, as long as the vast majority of of specimen > identification works. I know a good number of folks that would be > interested in such a "system". > > John Dach > > >Pete, > > > >Expert systems require the raw facts about the subject matter, and their > >relationships, but the key is capturing the experience of many experts > >in how apply those factoids, and turning it into many more rules. > > > >You can hold an on-topic conversation with a good expert system. The key > >is having an interviewer available to capture knowledge from any living > >expert whenever they detect a discrepancy, and add it to the rulebase as > >more factoids. The raw data is just the fodder that lets you capture the > >knowledge and insight of many subject experts. Capturing the experiences > >of many experts is the key. > > > >I've met almost a handful of real expert systems. It is like going to a > >world class symposia and asking a question at a Birds-Of-A-Feather > >session. You either get a direct answer, or a dialogue that reaches > >concensus after several questions. A real expert system is smarter > >than any one of us if you stay on topic. > > > >I think most rockhounds would benefit from having an expert system > >available to them. > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > >Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > >> > >> I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the ideas for this kind of > >> software are doomed to failure, or at any event, would be of minimal use. > >> > >> There are just too many minerals with very similar properties; too > >>few tests > >> one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that > >>require advanced > >> equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield > >>ambiguous results > >> or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics (variable color, > >> crystal shape, and so on). > >> > >> One could have a chance at doing this if you limited the mineral base to a > >> relatively small number of common minerals (100 or so?), but nature doesn't > >> confine itself to those few minerals; or included the kind of sophisticated > >> tests that an amateur could not normally do (optical properties; chemical > >> composition; X-ray diffraction). > >> > >> It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think it wouldn't > >>have much > >> utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the individual > >> person learning about the properties and nature of minerals, and using his > >> educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, > >>and then refer to > >> books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of course, in many > >> cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. without using those > >> advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, for example, hard, > >> refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to any simple > >>tests for chemical > >> composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and sulfosalt > >> minerals. > >> > >> But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one > >>would devise > >> these databases and identification keys! Or to dream about how simple life > >> would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those "mystery > >> minerals". > >> > >> Just "IMHO"... Pete > >> > > From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 14 20:17:59 2007 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Fri Dec 14 20:18:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <4761D2B2.4090503@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <81197.85504.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been having a dialog with the seller and he is very appreciative that someone let him know what the stone was. Apparently it was included in a lot that was sent from his supplier along with a batch of Brazilian material. Ergo, this appears to be a communication and assumption. I believe he will reauction the material he has as blue goldstone sans rare and mineral as adjectives. Elton --- Jeanne Rhodes-Moen wrote: > > This ebay dealer is either trying to pull a fast one or someone > pulled a > fast one on him! Calling Blue Goldstone a rare mineral..... > > > I get so annoyed when I see things like this. I remember a Chinese > dealer selling a 'rare irridescent mineral' that was clearly silicone > > carbide crystals! > > Jeanne > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jeanne at jeannius.com Fri Dec 14 20:27:15 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Fri Dec 14 20:27:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] scammer or gullible? In-Reply-To: <81197.85504.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <81197.85504.qm@web51005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <476357A3.8080900@jeannius.com> that's good! I tried to phrase my initial email without sound accusitory towards him..but rather that he may have been misinformed by the seller. Glad for once that it was not a case of intentional misrepresentation. Jeanne Mr EMan wrote: > I've been having a dialog with the seller and he is very appreciative > that someone let him know what the stone was. Apparently it was > included in a lot that was sent from his supplier along with a batch of > Brazilian material. Ergo, this appears to be a communication and > assumption. I believe he will reauction the material he has as blue > goldstone sans rare and mineral as adjectives. > > Elton > > > --- Jeanne Rhodes-Moen wrote: > > >> This ebay dealer is either trying to pull a fast one or someone >> pulled a >> fast one on him! Calling Blue Goldstone a rare mineral..... >> >> > > >> I get so annoyed when I see things like this. I remember a Chinese >> dealer selling a 'rare irridescent mineral' that was clearly silicone >> >> carbide crystals! >> >> Jeanne >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com* *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):* *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com* *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com* *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com* *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Dec 15 02:53:03 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Dec 15 02:53:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS In-Reply-To: <476351FF.A1C@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4760BEF8.6855@Tomaszewski.net> <476351FF.A1C@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000301c83f08$aa8b18f0$6501a8c0@AxelHP> Hi guys, I have another 2 cents to spend: Being an amateur myself, I've been helping a friend determining his finds a few years ago. We had FIVE different field guides plus two mineral encyclopedias on the table. Can you guess my worst frustration? No matter what I said, the guy kept looking at the photos in the field guides and comparing them to his specimens. He did not apply vinegar or hydrochloric acid... He did not crush one of his crystals to get a streak color, he did not try to get an idea of the hardness or brittleness... Just the luster, he did look at that but judging luster is reserved for the trained eyes of the experienced amateur or higher. Especially with very small specimens it can be hard to do under the microscope. In fact, it is probably a futile exercise for very small XX. I tried to demonstrate that looking at pictures is the best way to misidentify a mineral. To no avail. The problem is that these kind of hobbyists seek support with each other and tend to cluster together. They also tend to support each other's mistakes and lend some kind of reciprocal confirmation and trust. To the outside world they look as a convincing and solid group of knowledgeable semi-profs just because of their air of unwavering confidence in their abilities. You'd buy from them with more trust than is warranted by reality. There are serious an trustworthy professionals among mineral dealers. In fact they more than probably represent the majority. But I doubt that many of the "A-class" dealers consult field guides to identify their goods. A second problem that I have with field guides (although I own plenty of those) is this: If you know say 50 or maybe 80 of the most occurring minerals you don't need them. If you cannot identify a calcite or a quartz or staurolite or pyrite on sight then you 'll be no better of using a field guide ;-))) If something that you found fall outside those 50 or 80 most common minerals I doubt that the guides are going to be of any help (unless it's a real dead give-away) Field guides should be printed without photos (or with a full set of photos of every possible habit of every listed mineral, like the Goldschmidt atlas of crystal forms) and people who use them should at least have an idea of the mineral "inventory" of the localities that they visit. That would encourage people to look at the properties instead of the photos. Once you have the properties nailed then go ahead and look at some pictures of minerals that correspond to them. Or commit your findings to the MDI minerals database ;-))) Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Kreigh > Tomaszewski > Verzonden: zaterdag 15 december 2007 5:03 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Fw: SOFTWARE FOR INDENTIFYING MINERALS > > There are a number of 'expert systems' that cover (roughly) > the most common minerals (10-20% of all minerals). They are > called 'Field Guides'. > > Each Field Guide is written by a different author, and each > takes a different approach to identifying minerals. Most > Rockhounds use more than one Field Guide. They work most of > the time -- unusual minerals really are rare. > > I'm looking for an Expert System that knows about all the > common minerals from many sources, and has at least a > knowledgable awareness of the uncommon minerals; I want an > expert digital advisor that can teach me shortcuts to mineral > identification. > > Kreigh > > > > > > john dach wrote: > > > > And for "new Comers" or generally involved folks, verses > Experts, this > > sort of assistance could get them more involved. If some > of the more > > unusual specimens are just too difficult to get identified, > maybe that > > might ok, as long as the vast majority of of specimen > identification > > works. I know a good number of folks that would be interested in > > such a "system". > > > > John Dach > > > > >Pete, > > > > > >Expert systems require the raw facts about the subject matter, and > > >their relationships, but the key is capturing the > experience of many > > >experts in how apply those factoids, and turning it into > many more rules. > > > > > >You can hold an on-topic conversation with a good expert > system. The > > >key is having an interviewer available to capture > knowledge from any > > >living expert whenever they detect a discrepancy, and add > it to the > > >rulebase as more factoids. The raw data is just the fodder > that lets > > >you capture the knowledge and insight of many subject experts. > > >Capturing the experiences of many experts is the key. > > > > > >I've met almost a handful of real expert systems. It is > like going to > > >a world class symposia and asking a question at a > Birds-Of-A-Feather > > >session. You either get a direct answer, or a dialogue > that reaches > > >concensus after several questions. A real expert system is smarter > > >than any one of us if you stay on topic. > > > > > >I think most rockhounds would benefit from having an expert system > > >available to them. > > > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > >> > > >> I hate to be a wet blanket, but I really think the > ideas for this > > >> kind of software are doomed to failure, or at any > event, would be of minimal use. > > >> > > >> There are just too many minerals with very similar > properties; too > > >>few tests > > >> one can readily make, too many distinguishing features that > > >>require advanced > > >> equipment to determine, and too many cases that will yield > > >>ambiguous results > > >> or have a such large overlapping ranges of characteristics > > >>(variable color, > > >> crystal shape, and so on). > > >> > > >> One could have a chance at doing this if you limited > the mineral > > >> base to a relatively small number of common minerals > (100 or so?), > > >> but nature doesn't confine itself to those few minerals; or > > >> included the kind of sophisticated tests that an > amateur could not > > >> normally do (optical properties; chemical composition; > X-ray diffraction). > > >> > > >> It's fine to talk about this, but in practice, I think > it wouldn't > > >>have much > > >> utility. I don't think it would ever be a replacement for the > > >>individual > > >> person learning about the properties and nature of > minerals, and > > >>using his > > >> educated experience to guide him to the most likely candidates, > > >>and then refer to > > >> books or databases to narrow down the choices. And then of > > >>course, in many > > >> cases it will never be possible to make a positive i.d. > without > > >>using those > > >> advanced methods like XRD. There are just too many, > for example, > > >>hard, > > >> refractory silicate minerals that aren't ammenable to > any simple > > >>tests for chemical > > >> composition; or, similar-appearing black metallic sulfide and > > >>sulfosalt > > >> minerals. > > >> > > >> But it's a still good intellectual exercise to plan out how one > > >>would devise > > >> these databases and identification keys! Or to dream > about how > > >>simple life > > >> would be, if they really worked to identify very many of those > > >>"mystery > > >> minerals". > > >> > > >> Just "IMHO"... Pete > > >> > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jeanne at jeannius.com Sun Dec 16 20:14:44 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Sun Dec 16 20:14:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica Message-ID: <4765F7B4.4070002@jeannius.com> Hi all, I recently got some stones I believe to be peruvian Opal, but someone has suggested that they might be peruvian gem silica instead. I guess the only real difference is the opal contains water in the silicon dioxide matrix. The question is, how can I distinguish the two? I know the RI for regular opal, but does the chrysocolla in the opal affect the RI for the opal? and if so, does it affect the RI for the gem silica in relation to regular chalcedony? Take a look at http://www.jeannius.com/myspace/blueopals.jpg and see what you think. My problem is I need to ID them before I can price them. The seller had no idea what they were..they were from an estate sale. thanks in advance, jeanne From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Dec 16 21:01:05 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Dec 16 21:01:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica Message-ID: Not being an expert on this material at all, only having seen it on occasion, I'm going to jump in with an answer anyway, but perhaps someone with more authoritative knowledge may provide a better one. It looks to me like Peruvian blue opal ("Andean opal") rather than "gem silica", partly from the general appearance and partly from the more subdued color; the "gem silica", I think, being usually a deeper, brighter blue. That being said I was trying to make sure I comprehended exactly what is meant by "Peruvian gem silica". Jeanne, I think your answer to this would be, "Peruvian gem silica is that material commonly known in the lapidary material sales trade as Peruvian gem silica". As you can tell, I've been unclear as to what "gem silica" is supposed to be (mineralogically)--chalcedony? opal? a mixture? I got a reasonable answer to this from doing a little searching on the web; I found these excerpts from an article in Mineralogical Record, May/June 2003, by Jaroslav Hyrsl and Zolina Rosales, _http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3672/is_200305/ai_n9267242/pg_9_ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3672/is_200305/ai_n9267242/pg_9) "Lily mine, about 40 km east of Pisco and about 200 km south of Lima... Nice blue-green lapidary material, referred to as "gem silica," consists of chalcedony stained by chrysocolla inclusions (Hyrsl, 2001)." and, "T"he Acari mine exploits what is probably a porphyry-copper orebody near Nazca in Arequipa Department. For at least two decades it has produced large quantities of lapidary-grade chrysocolla (called "turquesa" in Peru), as well as transparent blue opal (described in the trade as "Andean opal") which is colored by chrysocolla inclusions. Mixtures of opal, chalcedony and chrysocolla in varying proportions, with varying refractive indices and densities, have been described by Hyrsl (2001). The same locality is also producing pink opal which contains a significant amount of palygorskite." This is the 2001 article referred to above: HYRSL, J. (2001) Gemstones of Peru. Journal of Gemology, 27, 6, 328-334. So anyway, evidently gem silica is chalcedony with chrysocolla inclusions. But mixtures of all three minerals also occur. Cheers, Pete Modreski **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jeanne at jeannius.com Sun Dec 16 21:13:19 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Sun Dec 16 21:13:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4766056F.1090104@jeannius.com> Thanks...so it really is hard to determine a clear cut line between the two. I found a refractive index for andean opal at 1.37-1.52 and regular chalcedony (and supposedly gem silica) runs 1.53-1.54, so unless it registers in the lower range for the opal, even that makes it hard to separate. I lean toward the opal also for two other reasons. a few of the stones are yellowish and a few I have are more white with black dendrites. Some sites describe opal that has not been allowed to dry long enough before cutting as turning a yellow green color, which a few are. Also, if it were 'gem silica', why would they bother with the colorless ones while opal is still opal and has a greater intrisic value than plain chalcedony. I'll take a look at the articles you sent...just hope I can find some definitive way to distinguish the two...both are valuable, and I've seen examples of both online that resemble what I have, but I agree that most of the gem silica is the stronger toned blue. I have some great gem silica probably from Arizona that I've cut. you can see some of that at http://www.creativecabs.com/index2.htm if anyone is interested. But that is a really strong blue, and sometimes has malachite inclusions. thanks, jeanne Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > Not being an expert on this material at all, only having seen it on > occasion, I'm going to jump in with an answer anyway, but perhaps someone with more > authoritative knowledge may provide a better one. > > It looks to me like Peruvian blue opal ("Andean opal") rather than "gem > silica", partly from the general appearance and partly from the more subdued > color; the "gem silica", I think, being usually a deeper, brighter blue. > > That being said I was trying to make sure I comprehended exactly what is > meant by "Peruvian gem silica". Jeanne, I think your answer to this would be, > "Peruvian gem silica is that material commonly known in the lapidary material > sales trade as Peruvian gem silica". As you can tell, I've been unclear as > to what "gem silica" is supposed to be (mineralogically)--chalcedony? opal? a > mixture? > > I got a reasonable answer to this from doing a little searching on the web; > I found these excerpts from an article in Mineralogical Record, May/June > 2003, by Jaroslav Hyrsl and Zolina Rosales, > _http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3672/is_200305/ai_n9267242/pg_9_ > (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3672/is_200305/ai_n9267242/pg_9) > > "Lily mine, about 40 km east of Pisco and about 200 km south of Lima... > Nice blue-green lapidary material, referred to as "gem silica," consists of > chalcedony stained by chrysocolla inclusions (Hyrsl, 2001)." and, > > "T"he Acari mine exploits what is probably a porphyry-copper orebody near > Nazca in Arequipa Department. For at least two decades it has produced large > quantities of lapidary-grade chrysocolla (called "turquesa" in Peru), as well as > transparent blue opal (described in the trade as "Andean opal") which is > colored by chrysocolla inclusions. Mixtures of opal, chalcedony and chrysocolla > in varying proportions, with varying refractive indices and densities, have > been described by Hyrsl (2001). The same locality is also producing pink opal > which contains a significant amount of palygorskite." > This is the 2001 article referred to above: > HYRSL, J. (2001) Gemstones of Peru. Journal of Gemology, 27, 6, 328-334. > So anyway, evidently gem silica is chalcedony with chrysocolla inclusions. > But mixtures of all three minerals also occur. > > Cheers, Pete Modreski > > > > > **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com* *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):* *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com* *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com* *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com* *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lavenderfish at cox.net Sun Dec 16 21:24:02 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Sun Dec 16 21:23:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica References: <4765F7B4.4070002@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <02fe01c8406d$090a44e0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Hi Jeanne, I'd second your belief that it's prob. Peruvian blue opal. Don't know any geology to back that up, just looks like P. opal and not chrys. to me. You'll probably get some good mineral info. re: differences from somebody else here though. Hope you find out for sure, Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanne Rhodes-Moen" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:14 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica > Hi all, I recently got some stones I believe to be peruvian Opal, but > someone has suggested that they might be peruvian gem silica instead. I > guess the only real difference is the opal contains water in the silicon > dioxide matrix. The question is, how can I distinguish the two? I know the > RI for regular opal, but does the chrysocolla in the opal affect the RI > for the opal? and if so, does it affect the RI for the gem silica in > relation to regular chalcedony? > > Take a look at http://www.jeannius.com/myspace/blueopals.jpg and see what > you think. My problem is I need to ID them before I can price them. The > seller had no idea what they were..they were from an estate sale. > > thanks in advance, > jeanne > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Dec 16 23:35:16 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Dec 16 23:35:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica In-Reply-To: <02fe01c8406d$090a44e0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> References: <4765F7B4.4070002@jeannius.com> <02fe01c8406d$090a44e0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <200712170735.lBH7ZKf2001646@bubbleator.drizzle.com> AFAIK there is no clear difference between these materials, besides the fact that one is slightly more opaline than the other. I am sure there is almost a uniform gradient from opal to chalcedony at the source. Hardness is the key. The more chalcedony in the mix, the harder the material. If I am unsure, I put it up against the 80 grit wheel on my Titan. Opal grinds away very quickly on a 60 grit diamond wheel, and chalcedony is typically only heavily scratched with the same pressure applied against the wheel. At 09:24 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote: >Hi Jeanne, > >I'd second your belief that it's prob. Peruvian blue opal. Don't >know any geology to back that up, just looks like P. opal and not >chrys. to me. You'll probably get some good mineral info. re: >differences from somebody else here though. > >Hope you find out for sure, Carol Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From jeanne at jeannius.com Mon Dec 17 04:07:48 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Mon Dec 17 04:07:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] peruvian blue opal vs peruvian gem silica In-Reply-To: <200712170735.lBH7ZKf2001646@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <4765F7B4.4070002@jeannius.com> <02fe01c8406d$090a44e0$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <200712170735.lBH7ZKf2001646@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <47666694.1010203@jeannius.com> My daughter managed to knock the tray off the bed and one broke. I can test that theory with that one rather than damage a good stone. Of course, the fact that it broke falling off the bed (banging against the other stones) would probably indicate opal because of fragility. Jeanne Tim Fisher wrote: > AFAIK there is no clear difference between these materials, besides > the fact that one is slightly more opaline than the other. I am sure > there is almost a uniform gradient from opal to chalcedony at the > source. Hardness is the key. The more chalcedony in the mix, the > harder the material. If I am unsure, I put it up against the 80 grit > wheel on my Titan. Opal grinds away very quickly on a 60 grit diamond > wheel, and chalcedony is typically only heavily scratched with the > same pressure applied against the wheel. > > At 09:24 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote: >> Hi Jeanne, >> >> I'd second your belief that it's prob. Peruvian blue opal. Don't know >> any geology to back that up, just looks like P. opal and not chrys. >> to me. You'll probably get some good mineral info. re: differences >> from somebody else here though. >> >> Hope you find out for sure, Carol > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com* *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):* *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com* *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com* *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com* *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From info at agatesfromargentina.com Mon Dec 17 18:12:13 2007 From: info at agatesfromargentina.com (Agates from Argentina) Date: Mon Dec 17 18:12:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region Message-ID: <000a01c8411b$692f2940$295febc9@ricardocasa> After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region , these are the best agates we collected . These were selected after cutting hundreds of kilos , driving thousands of miles , many broken wind-shields , and three damaged trucks . Please , click on the following link : http://www.flickr.com/photos/patagonianstar/sets/72157594376435740/ Ricardo & Claudia Birnie Argentina --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donaldtuttle at hotmail.com Mon Dec 17 18:52:25 2007 From: donaldtuttle at hotmail.com (Donald Tuttle) Date: Mon Dec 17 18:52:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region In-Reply-To: <000a01c8411b$692f2940$295febc9@ricardocasa> References: <000a01c8411b$692f2940$295febc9@ricardocasa> Message-ID: Ricardo and Claudia: Thank you for the most beautiful array of Patagonian agates! I have had the opportunity several times in the past five years to collect agates in the Drakenburg Mountains of Lesotho, Africa but none as fine as you display on your Flicker site. I could probably match you in broken windshields, blown tires and other vehicular mishaps, though, as a few of my collecting trips started with a rickity bacci (small truck) and ended up on donkey back... Thanks again. Beautiful! Donald L. Tuttle SCOUTGRAPHICS INK USA PO Box 548 Unadilla, NY 13849 Visit us at our webpage or blogsite: http://www.scoutgraphicsink.com http://patchdesignink.blogspot.com > From: info@agatesfromargentina.com > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:12:13 -0300 > Subject: [Rockhounds] After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region > > After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region , these are the best agates we collected . These were selected after cutting hundreds of kilos , driving thousands of miles , many broken wind-shields , and three damaged trucks . > Please , click on the following link : > http://www.flickr.com/photos/patagonianstar/sets/72157594376435740/ > Ricardo & Claudia Birnie > Argentina > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jeanne at jeannius.com Mon Dec 17 19:54:59 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Mon Dec 17 19:55:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] and the verdict is (was gem silica vs. peruv. opal) Message-ID: <47674493.6070902@jeannius.com> both opal and chalcedony fluoresce, but opal is usually pale green or white, while chalcedony is usually blue or white. Common opal, which peruvian material is considered, most often has green fluorescence. Chrysocolla does not fluoresce, so it should not affect the background mineral. Most of it fluoresced with green flecks or areas or none, though a few had patches of purple/blue....so it seems to be mostly opal, but could contain a mixture. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com* *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):* *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com* *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com* *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com* *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Dec 17 20:29:04 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Dec 17 20:27:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] and the verdict is (was gem silica vs. peruv. opal) In-Reply-To: <47674493.6070902@jeannius.com> References: <47674493.6070902@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <47674C90.70305@verizon.net> Jeanne Rhodes-Moen wrote: > both opal and chalcedony fluoresce, but opal is usually pale green or > white, while chalcedony is usually blue or white. Hi Jeanne, Not to rain on your parade--but opal and chalcedony *can* fluoresce, though not always. And there is plenty of green fluorescing chalcedony, usually caused by the "uranyl polyanion". In fact I don't think I've seen any other color than green in chalcedony, but then again I haven't seen everything! Very few minerals always fluoresce; scheelite is one of them, because the tungstate (WO4) in CaWO4 is "auto-fluorescing" or "self-activated." In most other cases, the fl. is caused by trace impurities or defects in the structure. Good examples are calcite and fluorite: both of these are transparent and colorless in their pure form, but there are many elements, especially the rare earth elements, that can substitute in the space where the calcite belongs. These other elements, when they cause fluorescence, are called "activators" and "co-activators." They are usually also responsible for the daylight color of these minerals. Calcite and fluorite are found in many colors, and fluoresce in different colors, and that is the reason why. In other minerals, like feldpsars, you can't tell in daylight that the activators are there, since they don't change the daylight color; you can only tell if one is fl. and another is not when you use the UV light. I have collected hundreds of feldspars around here in the last 3 years, and only a few have fl., and then only weakly. It must be frustrating to try to assign some names to gems that are not well characterized and are mixtures. On the other hand, they are all pretty in your photos, and I'm sure that once you set them in something unique, you'll be able to sell them at a good price; you might need to get creative with the names, especially considering that some of them look like agate from here. Best of luck, Don From rockcurrier at cs.com Tue Dec 18 01:02:03 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Tue Dec 18 01:02:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 43, Issue 18 References: <200712180203.lBI22w7f024580@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <001b01c84154$a8f13ee0$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Peruvian opal vs. chalcedony. Peru produces both gem silica and the more abundant blue opal. The opal often has black dendrites. The blue opal (Andean Opal) has been around for a long time, and the gem silica has been produced only during the last ten year or so. None of the gem silica was on the market until the last ten years or so, and even then, there was always a lot more blue opal than gem silica. One of my suppliers has spent a lot of time and energy trying to exploit the gem silica market and I think I have seen as much as any foreigner. I have classically used the luster on the fracture/cleavage to make the separation between the opal and the chalcedony, the opal having a shinier cleavage. I have also come to believe that there are materials in this class that may be a mixture of opal and silica and that there may be a sort of "solid solution" series that can take place between the Peruvian blue "Andean opal" and the gem silica. That is just an opinion of mine and not backed up by any mineralogical studies that I know of. Tim is also speaks practical truth when he suggests the difference is in the cutting. Most cutters don't have any mineralogical background and they class things by their color and how they cut. There are and always have been a lot more of them than mineralogists and their classifications and names for stones dominate the cut stone market much more than correct scientific names, and probably always will. One think for sure is that chalcedony is a rough tough customer compared to opal and as you point out, if it broke falling off the bed, it is probably opal. It would almost have to be opal. We sell a lot of real agate marbles and I often like to demonstrate the toughness of agate by taking one of them and throwing it down hard on the concrete floor of our warehouse and the marble will almost always bounce up four or five feet. I catch it and hand it to the customer to examine to see if they can find any damage or changes in the polished surface of the agate marble. You hardly ever see any changes at all. I tell them that you could never do that with a quartz ball. I call it the Currier bounce test for chalcedony. Rock From gene at fossilnut.com Tue Dec 18 06:17:10 2007 From: gene at fossilnut.com (gene@fossilnut.com) Date: Tue Dec 18 06:17:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region References: <000a01c8411b$692f2940$295febc9@ricardocasa> Message-ID: <000d01c84180$aed47e40$0301a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> Wow, even an old fossil collector like me can appreciate these. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Agates from Argentina" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:12 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region , these are the best agates we collected . These were selected after cutting hundreds of kilos , driving thousands of miles , many broken wind-shields , and three damaged trucks . Please , click on the following link : http://www.flickr.com/photos/patagonianstar/sets/72157594376435740/ Ricardo & Claudia Birnie Argentina --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From bigred at grantspass.com Tue Dec 18 19:08:13 2007 From: bigred at grantspass.com (Jan Arnold) Date: Tue Dec 18 19:08:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hawthorne Nevada Message-ID: <47688B1D.4050305@grantspass.com> We are going to be driving through Nevada on our way to Quartzsite and were told there was good petrified wood around Hawthorne. Does anyone have any information on this? Jan Arnold From cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 21:09:19 2007 From: cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net (Cliff Jackson) Date: Tue Dec 18 21:09:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hawthorne Nevada Message-ID: <8313409.1198040959319.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Jan Please reply off list. What date? I know of a good site around Gabbs NV. Opalized Pet wood not far from Hawthorne. You would need a guide to find but, depemding on the date I may be able to show you. -----Original Message----- >From: Jan Arnold >Sent: Dec 18, 2007 7:08 PM >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] Hawthorne Nevada > >We are going to be driving through Nevada on our way to Quartzsite and >were told there was good petrified wood around Hawthorne. Does anyone >have any information on this? >Jan Arnold >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html Cliff Jackson Las Vegas From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Wed Dec 19 12:48:06 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Wed Dec 19 12:48:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Christmas Chuckles References: <003e01c82bee$6e292460$610fa8c0@Grimble> Message-ID: <000901c84280$75a23170$0200000a@LarryRush> No new Christmas poems this year...here is an old groaner instead...... ANSWERS I NEVER HEARD IN GEOLOGY CLASS Larry Rush Is AGGLOMERATE scrambled aggs? / Does a WILDCATTER have GREENSTONE CATS-EYES in his HEADFRAME? Do clogged ARTERITES give geologists heart ATACMITES? Did ANNA BERGITE get jealous when BRUCITE had some SYNCLINE with KIM BERLITE? Is CITRINE what a geologist tells his dog, Trine? Is a MICROMOUNT a PREMATURE ERUPTION? Can a CUBANITE be admitted on the U.S. CONTINENTAL SHELF? Do 8 year old sisters on bikes perform CYCLIC TWINNING? Is a BRACHYDOME where the Brachs play football? Does a geologist who needs toilet training cause BEDDING SCHISTOCITY? If you GYPSUM of your mineral customers, can you land in the IRON-STONE CLINKER? Does a geologist get a TAN TALITE if he vacations in the ISOTROPICS? If you use a LADDER-VEIN to climb out of a GLORY-HOLE, will you fall on your TUFF? In topography, does MOOR ever mean LOESS? Is the term "LOPOLITHIC UNIFICATION in the LITHOLOGIC LITHOZONE " ever used by speech therapists? Will the CANADIAN SHIELD protect our neighbors from a ROCKet attack of EXPLOSION BRECCIA? Is a DIPJOINT related to a clip joint? Isn't a NORMAL FAULT a contradiction in terms? Will a meal of CRYSTAL LATTICE , GRAPTOLITES, and CARATS on EARTH CRUST made with ROCK FLOUR give you a GASTROLITHIC DISCONFORMITY? Does AT&T sell GEOPHONES to use with their PHONOLITE service? Is the ROADMETAL to riches paved with GOLDSTONE? Are LUNAR rocknuts called SPATIAL GREYWACKES? Do geologists babies who eat strained peas form GREENSCHIST? (I'm really sorry about this one!) Is ALABASTAR a brother-in-law from Alabama? Do geologists take ALKALI seltzer for ACID-ROCK stomach from eating PUDDING-STONE? Is a geologist's impotence called a BEDDING FAULT? Did U.S. geologists drop VOLCANIC BOMBS on the JAPANESE TWINS in WWII? If FRANKLIN ITE and CHRYS OBERYL had CONVERGENCE with a SEISMIC EVENT in a CONTACT ZONE without a CORUNDUM, could the result be a LITTORAL one? (Groan, groan!) Can a CUP CORAL hold FLUID INCLUSIONS , or do you need a VOLCANIC GLASS? Does DACITE follow NITRITE? Can you wash your MINERAL WOOL with SOAPSTONE in a DRAINAGE BASIN? Is ARSENIC when a geologist gets bitten in the rear by a DOODLEBUG? Is BEDROCK time for a new mattress and a better PILLOW STRUCTURE? Can SOIL MECHANICS repair TEAR FAULTS? From JWachsmuth at gmx.de Wed Dec 19 12:53:34 2007 From: JWachsmuth at gmx.de (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Wed Dec 19 12:53:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Curtis P. Schuh References: <469928BB.4070102@verizon.net> <813d690aac71c33dd3523f69485c526c@lrream.com> <4699662C.9010508@verizon.net> <469976E2.3050005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <476984CD.BAF348C9@gmx.de> Hello, you may have read the obituary for Curtis P. Schuh by W.E. Wilson in Mineralogical Record 6/2007. I learnt that C. Schuh spent plenty of time with "Mineralogy and Crystallography, An Annotated Bibliography of Books 1469-1919". I doubt that this work will be repeated or finished in the years to come. Unfortunately Mr. Wilson did not mention that everyone is able to look into the results of his work. You can find it under http://www.archive.org/details/BioBib_Mineralogy_2007_Vol_1 Maybe this is of help to some of you. Regards, J?rgen Wachsmuth From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Wed Dec 19 13:03:54 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Wed Dec 19 13:04:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] (Rockhounds) Christmas Chuckles- Page2 References: <003e01c82bee$6e292460$610fa8c0@Grimble> <000901c84280$75a23170$0200000a@LarryRush> Message-ID: <000401c84282$aa808430$0200000a@LarryRush> Forgot Page2.............................. Can SOIL MECHANICS repair TEAR FAULTS? If a geologist becomes ILLITE, does he go to a TRICLINIC to leave a URANINITE specimen? Can you boil MINERAL WATER in a KETTLE HOLE heated with MAGMA? Is it then a HYDROTHERMAL fluid? Are there many PLANETESIMALS, or do we live on a RARE EARTH of our STAUROLITE? Can I drive in my new CARNETITE on the DESERT PAVEMENT over a LAND BRIDGE? Do DIFFERENTIAL FORCES ever fight it out in a Congress of LEUCOCRATS vs. Republicans? Can you ever get a DISCONFORMITY in your SPINEL CHORDATA? Is CRYSTAL DISORDER common in a CHAOS structure? Can you get bitten by the DOGTOOTH SPAR of a LABRADORITE? Do VULCANOLOGISTS ever get ERUPTIVE and FUMEROLE at times? Are INTRUSIVE or EXTRUSIVE rocks more fun at a party? Are geologists or psychologists more interested in FAULT COMPLEXES and TENSILE STRESSES? Wasn't it Edna FERBERITE who wrote The Good Earth? Can you call a HARD ROCK geologist a FLINTY character? Is RUBY SILVER really a GOLD-digger, or does that old FOSSIL, AL MANDITE, only have FOOL'S GOLD anyway? Does a GABBRO dominate the conversation at a cocktail party? Is FLAG-STONE found in an old GLORY-HOLE? Is a BARITE ROSE formed by the GREENHOUSE EFFECT in the presence of SUNSTONE? Is ANTIMONY a geologist's rich aunt? Does a geologist flamer make an ASH of himself? Does a geologist get lost in a house with a BASEMENT COMPLEX? Is BLACKJACK the name of a COAL MINE geologist? Is PEAT MOSS the name of a geobotanist? Has anybody seen that old CALAMINE, OLIVINE? Can my friend CHAL CEDONY get a BREW STERITE at the CINNA BAR with a NICCOL ITE? Can CROSSED NICHOLS be corrected with SPECULARITES? Do small APACHE TEARS CRYOLITE? Does AFTERSHOCK occur on a geologists New Year's Day? Is the geologists theme song ADOBE-dobe-doo, written by Jerome KERN ITE? And most importantly... Is this list just so much WASTAGE by a SILLIMANITE? From timeman123 at optonline.net Wed Dec 19 15:54:07 2007 From: timeman123 at optonline.net (ROBERT A SANTEE) Date: Wed Dec 19 15:55:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons Message-ID: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> Hi can anybody give me some info on making a cabochon with a dremel rotary tool I have a limited space to work in and I would like to try making a cab with the tool also can you tell me what kind of sanding disks I need and buffs that I would need I am new to this but I would like to try it.Also how would you support the stone while working on it thanks bob. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Dec 19 16:21:27 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Dec 19 16:21:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL Message-ID: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Science is funny... in a matter of speaking! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306076,00.html Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Wed Dec 19 16:35:27 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Dec 19 16:38:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons In-Reply-To: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> References: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> Message-ID: <200712200038.lBK0cO4T021796@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I personally know of no way to make an acceptable cab with a Dremel. I don't think most if any of the silicon carbide grits are available as sanding drums or disks. You might be able to find diamond disks but in my experience these are going to be inadequate for sanding a cabochon. Even if they were adequate, you would have to do it wet since agate, jasper, etc. would wear the grit right off if it were worked dry. There are kits for handmaking cabs that work just fine with a fair amount of elbow grease. Alternately, the Crystalmaster 6" machine is very compact and makes an acceptable cab with a bit of practice. At 03:54 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote: >Hi can anybody give me some info on making a cabochon with a dremel >rotary tool I have a limited space to work in and I would like to >try making a cab with the tool also can you tell me what kind of >sanding disks I need and buffs that I would need I am new to this >but I would like to try it.Also how would you support the stone >while working on it thanks bob. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 19 17:47:34 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 19 17:44:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] (Rockhounds) Christmas Chuckles- Page2 References: <003e01c82bee$6e292460$610fa8c0@Grimble> <000901c84280$75a23170$0200000a@LarryRush> <000401c84282$aa808430$0200000a@LarryRush> Message-ID: <4769C900.3246@Tomaszewski.net> What a LODE of FUCHSITE. No SCHIST. If I looked in your ear would I SHEELITE? Put Nick's stuff back ONYX shelf where it belongs. If a rube is a type of hick, does it follow that hickeys are RUBIES? There are four QUARTZ in a gallon. Fractures of the SPINEL column usually result in paralysis. Rockhounds are GNEISS, TUFF, and a little WACKE. If you put all the talkative students in the front row, would it be a GABBRO? If you drop a rock on your foot in polite company you should say 'GARNET all!'. It gets GOLD in the winter. Lawrence Rush wrote: > > Forgot Page2.............................. > > Can SOIL MECHANICS repair TEAR FAULTS? > > If a geologist becomes ILLITE, does he go to a TRICLINIC to leave a > URANINITE specimen? > > Can you boil MINERAL WATER in a KETTLE HOLE heated with MAGMA? Is it then a > HYDROTHERMAL fluid? > > Are there many PLANETESIMALS, or do we live on a RARE EARTH of our > STAUROLITE? > > Can I drive in my new CARNETITE on the DESERT PAVEMENT over a LAND BRIDGE? > > Do DIFFERENTIAL FORCES ever fight it out in a Congress of LEUCOCRATS vs. > Republicans? > > Can you ever get a DISCONFORMITY in your SPINEL CHORDATA? > > Is CRYSTAL DISORDER common in a CHAOS structure? > > Can you get bitten by the DOGTOOTH SPAR of a LABRADORITE? > > Do VULCANOLOGISTS ever get ERUPTIVE and FUMEROLE at times? > > Are INTRUSIVE or EXTRUSIVE rocks more fun at a party? > > Are geologists or psychologists more interested in FAULT COMPLEXES and > TENSILE STRESSES? > > Wasn't it Edna FERBERITE who wrote The Good Earth? > > Can you call a HARD ROCK geologist a FLINTY character? > > Is RUBY SILVER really a GOLD-digger, or does that old FOSSIL, AL MANDITE, > only have FOOL'S GOLD anyway? > > Does a GABBRO dominate the conversation at a cocktail party? > > Is FLAG-STONE found in an old GLORY-HOLE? > > Is a BARITE ROSE formed by the GREENHOUSE EFFECT in the presence of > SUNSTONE? > > Is ANTIMONY a geologist's rich aunt? > > Does a geologist flamer make an ASH of himself? > > Does a geologist get lost in a house with a BASEMENT COMPLEX? > > Is BLACKJACK the name of a COAL MINE geologist? > > Is PEAT MOSS the name of a geobotanist? > > Has anybody seen that old CALAMINE, OLIVINE? > > Can my friend CHAL CEDONY get a BREW STERITE at the CINNA BAR with a NICCOL > ITE? > > Can CROSSED NICHOLS be corrected with SPECULARITES? > > Do small APACHE TEARS CRYOLITE? > > Does AFTERSHOCK occur on a geologists New Year's Day? > > Is the geologists theme song ADOBE-dobe-doo, written by Jerome KERN ITE? > > And most importantly... > > Is this list just so much WASTAGE by a SILLIMANITE? > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 19 18:48:53 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 19 18:45:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons References: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> Message-ID: <4769D756.3BBA@Tomaszewski.net> Robert, I suppose it would be poossible in theory to carve a cab from a stone with a dremel if you were really good at carving. You might have better luck clamping the dremel to your workspace and make a very small grinding wheel to work on a cab in the traditional way. Providing the water coolent would be an issue in either case, and without a long shaft to seperate the dremel from the wet work area it would be dangerous (electrocution hazard). With the shaft you might also dop the stone to a nail, and put it in the shaft chuck, and work on sheet sandpaper in a tray of water. Might work spinning the stone, but not likely. If you don't have experience making cabs I recommend you find a local rock club by visiting www.amfed.org and have a lapidary teach you how to cut cabs before you try to improvise equipment. Kreigh ROBERT A SANTEE wrote: > > Hi can anybody give me some info on making a cabochon with a dremel rotary tool I have a limited space to work in and I would like to try making a cab with the tool also can you tell me what kind of sanding disks I need and buffs that I would need I am new to this but I would like to try it.Also how would you support the stone while working on it thanks bob. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 19 18:51:35 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 19 18:48:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> Using mussels instead of brains. Classic. Kreigh Alan Goldstein wrote: > > Science is funny... in a matter of speaking! > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306076,00.html > > Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sinico at nbnet.nb.ca Wed Dec 19 19:42:33 2007 From: sinico at nbnet.nb.ca (Hans Durstling) Date: Wed Dec 19 19:33:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons In-Reply-To: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> References: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> Message-ID: <31f26990726aeb4a2f5aa71b1629485e@nbnet.nb.ca> Robert, At a stretch, a very long stretch at that, I would say it *can* be done. But you'd need a lot of cabbing/lapidary experience in order to do it with anything like a useable outcome. And if you had that experience, most likely you wouldn't do it. It's somewhat like building the Titanic out of matchstcks. Yes it can be done, but why? On a more helpful note I'd suggest the first step in the process, whatever device you end up using, would be to get a good lapidary how-to book. I'm not sure if I have the title right title but look for something like "Gemcutting for Amateurs" by the late John Sinkankas. Anything by Sinkankas is first rate. He was gifted in explanatory writing in a way that very few can equal. Cheers, Hans Durstling Moncton, Canada On 19-Dec-07, at 7:54 PM, ROBERT A SANTEE wrote: > Hi can anybody give me some info on making a cabochon with a dremel > rotary tool I have a limited space to work in and I would like to try > making a cab with the tool also can you tell me what kind of sanding > disks I need and buffs that I would need I am new to this but I would > like to try it.Also how would you support the stone while working on > it thanks bob. > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From flint...smith at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 20 00:19:48 2007 From: flint...smith at sbcglobal.net (Flint Smith) Date: Thu Dec 20 00:19:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region In-Reply-To: <000a01c8411b$692f2940$295febc9@ricardocasa> Message-ID: <842792.50243.qm@web82504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Amazingly beautiful. Thank you for showing them. Agates from Argentina wrote: After more than 20 trips to the Patagonian Region , these are the best agates we collected . These were selected after cutting hundreds of kilos , driving thousands of miles , many broken wind-shields , and three damaged trucks . Please , click on the following link : http://www.flickr.com/photos/patagonianstar/sets/72157594376435740/ Ricardo & Claudia Birnie Argentina --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lockerridge at hughes.net Thu Dec 20 04:25:55 2007 From: lockerridge at hughes.net (Terri McCain) Date: Thu Dec 20 04:26:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group Message-ID: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> Hello folks, My name is Terri McCain.. I hail from the state of Arkansas. I am a female 49 years of age and I like rocks. I am in the middle of a beautiful part of the United States and have only a small journey to look for arrowheads and other Indian artifacts, fossils, and drive a little further and I am in Hot Springs county. I love to go to Murfreesboro and look for diamonds there at the State Park. I have read all of the online information from the Sweet Surrender Mine in Mt. Ida and hope to visit there this summer. I don't really know a lot about the scientific side of the ground we walk on .. but I have always been fascinated by it, and anyone who knows me well enough to go anywhere with me.. complains that I never look where I am walking.. I am always looking for a "way cool rock". I probably won't have much to contribute to the science of rock and mineral compositon or any of the things I have read in your mailing I looked at, but I bet I will learn a lot by reading the digest every day. I look forward to being taught by the best it would seem. thankyou for allowing me to join such a learned and experienced group of fellow rock lovers Terri McCain From jeanne at jeannius.com Thu Dec 20 05:45:04 2007 From: jeanne at jeannius.com (Jeanne Rhodes-Moen) Date: Thu Dec 20 05:45:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend? Message-ID: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-OPAL-SHELLFISH-FOSSIL_W0QQitemZ230205297827QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3214QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com* *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):* *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com* *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com* *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com* *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 05:51:41 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Dec 20 05:51:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: There is an even stranger example of this.scientists exterminated an entire species by accident. The story is that in the Great Smokey Mountains National Park the resident biologists decided to get rid of exotic introduced fish, some species of trout IIRC, by poisoning the creeks with rotenone, killing all the fish, and then restocking with native species. So they were carrying out this plan when someone glanced at the fish floating belly-up in the creek and exclaimed: "What's that!?" Well that turned out to be some species of unknown fish that only lived in that one creek and they were now all dead... This was documented in one of McGee's books, probably the one about the Appalachian Trail IIRC. I think they later found some related fish in other creeks but not the exact same species. BK On Dec 19, 2007 9:51 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Using mussels instead of brains. Classic. > > Kreigh > > > Alan Goldstein wrote: > > > > Science is funny... in a matter of speaking! > > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306076,00.html > > > > Alan > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dr00bert at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 06:17:01 2007 From: dr00bert at gmail.com (Drew) Date: Thu Dec 20 06:17:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <7aac8040712200617i1708b377nc59daa050055e345@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 20, 2007 8:51 AM, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > There is an even stranger example of this.scientists exterminated an > entire > species by accident. The story is that in the Great Smokey Mountains > National Park the resident biologists decided to get rid of exotic > introduced fish, some species of trout IIRC, by poisoning the creeks with > rotenone, killing all the fish, and then restocking with native species. > > So they were carrying out this plan when someone glanced at the fish > floating belly-up in the creek and exclaimed: "What's that!?" > > Well that turned out to be some species of unknown fish that only lived in > that one creek and they were now all dead... > > This was documented in one of McGee's books, probably the one about the > Appalachian Trail IIRC. I think they later found some related fish in > other > creeks but not the exact same species. > > BK > Smoky madtoms and Yellowfin madtoms were the fish that were *thought* to have been eliminated... but they have found the same species in other creeks in the area... what is crazy is that they weren't restocking with native species, instead they were stocking with the popular, non-native sportfish, the rainbow trout. Here is a site about that, < http://eerc.ra.utk.edu/sightline/V4N1/water.html> Drew --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 06:18:06 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Dec 20 06:18:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons In-Reply-To: <200712200038.lBK0cO4T021796@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <875378.86250.qm@web34306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You might be best off by working with something relatively soft, like Kona Dolomite or Petosky Stone. I've seen these polished with sandpaper and fine emery cloth. Jim Tim Fisher wrote: I personally know of no way to make an acceptable cab with a Dremel. I don't think most if any of the silicon carbide grits are available as sanding drums or disks. You might be able to find diamond disks but in my experience these are going to be inadequate for sanding a cabochon. Even if they were adequate, you would have to do it wet since agate, jasper, etc. would wear the grit right off if it were worked dry. There are kits for handmaking cabs that work just fine with a fair amount of elbow grease. Alternately, the Crystalmaster 6" machine is very compact and makes an acceptable cab with a bit of practice. At 03:54 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote: >Hi can anybody give me some info on making a cabochon with a dremel >rotary tool I have a limited space to work in and I would like to >try making a cab with the tool also can you tell me what kind of >sanding disks I need and buffs that I would need I am new to this >but I would like to try it.Also how would you support the stone >while working on it thanks bob. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Dec 20 06:32:23 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Dec 20 06:38:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Totally off topic! Don't read! In-Reply-To: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <200712201435.lBKEZHgt000903@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Alan, you might be amused by the IgNobel Awards: http://www.ignobel.com/ig/ig-pastwinners.html#ig2007 At 04:21 PM 12/19/2007, you wrote: >Science is funny... in a matter of speaking! > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306076,00.html > >Alan Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 06:35:55 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Dec 20 06:38:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: <7aac8040712200617i1708b377nc59daa050055e345@mail.gmail.com> References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> <7aac8040712200617i1708b377nc59daa050055e345@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You are better at googling than I am, I tried 5 or 6 sets of search terms and couldn't find a thing. I suspect the biology community isn't too proud of the incident and aren't eager to write about it, heh. I've been in both those creeks, we went hiking down Citico creek and while bolder hopping across it I slipped and gave my elbow one heck of a whack. The other one is the one that meanders around Cade's Cove I guess. BK > Smoky madtoms and Yellowfin madtoms were the fish that were *thought* to > have been eliminated... but they have found the same species in other > creeks > in the area... what is crazy is that they weren't restocking with native > species, instead they were stocking with the popular, non-native > sportfish, > the rainbow trout. Here is a site about that, < > http://eerc.ra.utk.edu/sightline/V4N1/water.html> > > Drew > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Dec 20 07:10:37 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Dec 20 07:14:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <200712201514.lBKFEEYu025985@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Um, a little reality check here. It was 1957, the fish was the smoky madtom (a tiny catfish for those of you not familiar with strange eastern US stream fish lol). In the 50s, no one knew a darn thing about biological diversity, relatively speaking. A lot of endemic fish species (those present in only a very small geographic range) were exterminated with rotenone between the 50s and the 70s (one of the most infamous was the Miller Lake lamprey, believed to have been intentionally exterminated by the Oregon DFW with rotenone in 1958 since it "scared the trout", only to be "rediscovered" in the 1990s). There are very closely related madtoms that did not get exterminated in the same stream, so the species has almost identical living relatives (identifying a madtom to species can be problematic even for the "eggsperts"). Finally, the rotenone treatment was routinely used to kill native fish species so that the streams could be stocked with sportfish (e.g., rainbow trout) which then would grow faster since they had no competition for food, a use which is illegal in most states these days, and if not illegal, subject to so much permitting and scrutiny that it is rarely used anyway. And no one, at the time, believed that a species could be exterminated by using rotenone, since there is never a 100% kill; some fish always get lucky by being near springs or tributary streams, where the rotenone didn't mix into the water they were breathing. True story: In the lab at the U of Idaho, there was a clear plastic "gun" tucked away on a high shelf. I was curious about it so I asked my major professor what it was for. He informed me that in the "good ol' days" of fisheries biology, the "zip gun" (apparently not a trademarked name; Google it lol) was used to sample fish from deep pools in streams, by inserting a length of primacord ("blasting cord") in it, attaching a blasting cap, and firing it off underwater (yes, I know, insane but absolutely true). The resulting shock wave killed everything with a swim bladder in the pool. My $0.02 on the quahog: if they found a 400 year old clam in a random dredge sample, there are older clams out there. The odds that they killed the oldest living animal are vanishingly small. I think more surveys, and tasting panels, are needed! Methuselah Chowder coming soon to restaurant near you! :P At 05:51 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote: >There is an even stranger example of this.scientists exterminated an entire >species by accident. The story is that in the Great Smokey Mountains >National Park the resident biologists decided to get rid of exotic >introduced fish, some species of trout IIRC, by poisoning the creeks with >rotenone, killing all the fish, and then restocking with native species. > >So they were carrying out this plan when someone glanced at the fish >floating belly-up in the creek and exclaimed: "What's that!?" > >Well that turned out to be some species of unknown fish that only lived in >that one creek and they were now all dead... > >This was documented in one of McGee's books, probably the one about the >Appalachian Trail IIRC. I think they later found some related fish in other >creeks but not the exact same species. > >BK > >On Dec 19, 2007 9:51 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > Using mussels instead of brains. Classic. > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > Alan Goldstein wrote: > > > > > > Science is funny... in a matter of speaking! > > > > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306076,00.html > > > > > > Alan Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Dec 20 07:16:35 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Dec 20 07:19:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: <7aac8040712200617i1708b377nc59daa050055e345@mail.gmail.com > References: <008901c8429e$4303d610$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> <7aac8040712200617i1708b377nc59daa050055e345@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200712201519.lBKFJRrA029493@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Cool, I didn't think to Google for smoky madtoms, I was taught that these and the lampreys I mentioned were extinct. I guess they were "rediscovered" after the early 1980s. AFAIK ALL rotenone treatments in the 50s were done to introduce game fish. The usual culprit was rainbow trout or largemouth bass. At 06:17 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote: >On Dec 20, 2007 8:51 AM, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > >Smoky madtoms and Yellowfin madtoms were the fish that were *thought* to >have been eliminated... but they have found the same species in other creeks >in the area... what is crazy is that they weren't restocking with native >species, instead they were stocking with the popular, non-native sportfish, >the rainbow trout. Here is a site about that, < >http://eerc.ra.utk.edu/sightline/V4N1/water.html> > >Drew Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Thu Dec 20 08:00:31 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Thu Dec 20 08:00:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend? In-Reply-To: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> References: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <018601c84321$731ab110$6501a8c0@okapi> The Dot says that she wants it for Christmas. I already told her that the 8x10mm in her engagement ring will have to suffice. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Jeanne Rhodes-Moen > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:45 AM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple > $million to spend? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-OPAL-SHELLFISH-FOSSIL_W0QQi.... From sinico at nbnet.nb.ca Thu Dec 20 09:23:50 2007 From: sinico at nbnet.nb.ca (Hans Durstling) Date: Thu Dec 20 09:14:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend? In-Reply-To: <018601c84321$731ab110$6501a8c0@okapi> References: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> <018601c84321$731ab110$6501a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: Opal fossils are not at all rare. Unless this one is an exquisitely preserved individual, which it does not appear to be. Moreover it is described as an "unidentified" species. It does however appear to be brilliantly colored crystal opal as described. So my feeling is that its value would come more as cutting material than as fossil. But the fact that nothing is said about inclusions or other cuttability factors would make *me* a cautious buyer. Certainly if it were being offered as cutting rough I'd expect to see the seller's estimate of how many carats it might yield in finished goods. My guess from looking at the pictures is it would yield stones in the $ 200-300 a carat range. But I might be wildly off there, my opal pricing is getting old and out of date. So even at the assumption of zero cutting loss you'd be only in the half million range. Like I say I might be off in my price estimation, so that's just speculating around the ballpark as it were. Be interesting to follow the progress of this one. Carol Bova, penny for your thoughts? Cheers, Hans Durstling Moncton, Canada Dot says that she wants it for Christmas. I already told her that the > 8x10mm in her engagement ring will have to suffice. > > GcB > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >> Jeanne Rhodes-Moen >> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:45 AM >> To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors >> Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple >> $million to spend? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-OPAL-SHELLFISH-FOSSIL_W0QQi.... > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From ic420999 at ohio.edu Wed Dec 19 19:08:04 2007 From: ic420999 at ohio.edu (ic420999@ohio.edu) Date: Thu Dec 20 09:54:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons In-Reply-To: <200712200201.lBK21Dtr010434@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712200201.lBK21Dtr010434@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <1198120084.4769dc94773c1@webmail.ohio.edu> Bob, I think it would be very difficult to do much with a dremel. I have shaped feldspar and hematite, and petrified tree fern, by hand grinding flat blanks I cut with a tile saw. I used a silicone carbide wheel. I doped my blank, placed the wheel in a pan with water and used the large face, grinding round and round for hours and hours and hours....... until I had the shape I wanted. If you do try this never use the wheel on a powered machine, it will not have proper balance, and could fly apart and kill you. To give the best hand polish I would use 3M imperial wet/dry sandpaper(best place to find this is a auto parts store in the paint section), grits, 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000. Then I hit the cab with cerium oxide on a buff mounted in a drill. It was labor of love..... but takes about three days.... not very efficient. I have upgraded to a graves cab mate with a diamond wheel. It cost around $600(for the diamond package) but provides most of the versatility I need. Good luck Isaac Coblentz > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:54:07 -0500 > From: ROBERT A SANTEE > Subject: [Rockhounds] cabochons > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Message-ID: <000601c8429a$71b9d4e0$477c5143@ownerfbau59hmu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Hi can anybody give me some info on making a cabochon with a dremel > rotary tool I have a limited space to work in and I would like to try > making a cab with the tool also can you tell me what kind of sanding > disks I need and buffs that I would need I am new to this but I would > like to try it.Also how would you support the stone while working on > it thanks bob. > > > From Bobslgn at aol.com Thu Dec 20 09:57:38 2007 From: Bobslgn at aol.com (Bobslgn@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 20 09:57:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada Message-ID: Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada Jan and Cliff WARNING! Prospective Pet Wood collectors in Nevada. Nevada has regulations, which make collecting Pet Wood illegal and they can confiscate your car! Some years ago Gabbs was a regular tailgate destination for rock clubs planning to collect petrified wood. This all changed when the State adopted regulations to stop the plundering of primitive man sites. The regulations have been broadly interpreted to extend to anything which might be called a fossil including petrified wood. Penalties, fines and vehicle confiscations have befallen unwary collectors. Unless there has been some changes to the Nevada regs. collecting pet wood in Nevada is a risk. Bob **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Bobslgn at aol.com Thu Dec 20 10:10:03 2007 From: Bobslgn at aol.com (Bobslgn@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 20 10:10:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Cabochons Message-ID: Robert, I agree with most of what Tim has advised. I would not try to make a cabchon with a dremmel tool. That being said flexible shaft tools are used for carving stone. The long shaft allows the cutting/grinding tool to be operated inside a plastic box and kept wet, without risking getting water into the motor or causing the operator to inhale the rock dust. Diamond bits and grits are available for this. With the grits one can force the grit into a piece of fiberglass rod. The piece of rod is attached to a tool shaft by screwing it on or bonding with epoxy. I believe a google search would turn up some detailed info on how to build the box and obtain supplies. Good luck, Bob **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rocknate at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 13:10:51 2007 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Thu Dec 20 13:11:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group In-Reply-To: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> References: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: Terri, Welcome to the Rockhounds list. No matter what your level of expertise I think you will find this list a useful source of information. Nate Martin Lexington, MA On 12/20/07, Terri McCain wrote: > > Hello folks, > > My name is Terri McCain.. I hail from the state of Arkansas. I am a > female 49 years of age and I like rocks. > > I am in the middle of a beautiful part of the United States and have > only a small journey to look for arrowheads and other Indian artifacts, > fossils, and drive a little further and I am in Hot Springs county. > > I love to go to Murfreesboro and look for diamonds there at the State > Park. I have read all of the online information from the Sweet > Surrender Mine in Mt. Ida and hope to visit there this summer. > > I don't really know a lot about the scientific side of the ground we > walk on .. but I have always been fascinated by it, and anyone who > knows me well enough to go anywhere with me.. complains that I never > look where I am walking.. I am always looking for a "way cool rock". > > I probably won't have much to contribute to the science of rock and > mineral compositon or any of the things I have read in your mailing I > looked at, but I bet I will learn a lot by reading the digest every > day. I look forward to being taught by the best it would seem. > > thankyou for allowing me to join such a learned and experienced group > of fellow rock lovers > > Terri McCain > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Dec 20 12:55:57 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Dec 20 13:13:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712202113.lBKLDtJe031244@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I would like to see proof of this. Nevada is something like 90% BLM land and the only restrictions I am aware of are in the Black Rock Desert and only in the designated wilderness area there. In fact the new rules for the Black Rock specifically adopt the old BLM 25 lbs. per person per day limits. There are no specific restrictions on collecting ANYTHING on state lands mentioned on the state's geology dept. website. I can find no reference to new artifact collecting rules either. At 09:57 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote: > >Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada >Jan and Cliff >WARNING! Prospective Pet Wood collectors in Nevada. >Nevada has regulations, which make collecting Pet Wood illegal and they can >confiscate your car! >Some years ago Gabbs was a regular tailgate destination for rock clubs >planning to collect petrified wood. This all changed when the State adopted >regulations to stop the plundering of primitive man sites. The >regulations have >been broadly interpreted to extend to anything which might be >called a fossil >including petrified wood. Penalties, fines and vehicle confiscations have >befallen unwary collectors. Unless there has been some changes >to the Nevada >regs. collecting pet wood in Nevada is a risk. >Bob > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From kcbaran at arczip.com Thu Dec 20 13:09:15 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Thu Dec 20 13:15:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group In-Reply-To: References: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <476AD9FB.3030109@arczip.com> Terri: For Sure! My wife, Kathy and I are just amateur rock hunters/cab makers with very little technical knowledge. You will find oceans of information from many, many experts here. Welcome aboard and Merry Christmas. Chuck Baran Nathan Martin wrote: >Terri, >Welcome to the Rockhounds list. No matter what your level of expertise I >think you will find this list a useful source of information. >Nate Martin >Lexington, MA > > >On 12/20/07, Terri McCain wrote: > > >>Hello folks, >> >>My name is Terri McCain.. I hail from the state of Arkansas. I am a >>female 49 years of age and I like rocks. >> >>I am in the middle of a beautiful part of the United States and have >>only a small journey to look for arrowheads and other Indian artifacts, >>fossils, and drive a little further and I am in Hot Springs county. >> >>I love to go to Murfreesboro and look for diamonds there at the State >>Park. I have read all of the online information from the Sweet >>Surrender Mine in Mt. Ida and hope to visit there this summer. >> >>I don't really know a lot about the scientific side of the ground we >>walk on .. but I have always been fascinated by it, and anyone who >>knows me well enough to go anywhere with me.. complains that I never >>look where I am walking.. I am always looking for a "way cool rock". >> >>I probably won't have much to contribute to the science of rock and >>mineral compositon or any of the things I have read in your mailing I >>looked at, but I bet I will learn a lot by reading the digest every >>day. I look forward to being taught by the best it would seem. >> >>thankyou for allowing me to join such a learned and experienced group >>of fellow rock lovers >> >>Terri McCain >>-- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> >> > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net Thu Dec 20 15:36:41 2007 From: cliffjackson9 at earthlink.net (Cliff Jackson) Date: Thu Dec 20 15:36:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada Message-ID: <6532041.1198193801531.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bob Do not know where you got your info but on BLM land the collecting of 25 lbs + one piece, per day, is allowed. The site I was talking about is on BLM land. -----Original Message----- >From: Bobslgn@aol.com >Sent: Dec 20, 2007 9:57 AM >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada > > >Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada >Jan and Cliff >WARNING! Prospective Pet Wood collectors in Nevada. >Nevada has regulations, which make collecting Pet Wood illegal and they can >confiscate your car! >Some years ago Gabbs was a regular tailgate destination for rock clubs >planning to collect petrified wood. This all changed when the State adopted >regulations to stop the plundering of primitive man sites. The regulations have >been broadly interpreted to extend to anything which might be called a fossil >including petrified wood. Penalties, fines and vehicle confiscations have >befallen unwary collectors. Unless there has been some changes to the Nevada >regs. collecting pet wood in Nevada is a risk. >Bob > > > >**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes >(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html Cliff Jackson Las Vegas From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:46:24 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Thu Dec 20 17:46:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group In-Reply-To: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> References: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: Welcome Terri! It appears you have reached a point in your life that lets you pursue your interest in rocks more thoroughly than before. A great way to learn is by joining a local rock and gem club and meeting others with similar interests and a wealth of knowledge. It also appears you are young enough to learn as much as you would like about this fascinating hobby that is related to all aspects of natural science. You have already found this list where the knowledge of many is shared freely. Good luck finding interesting rocks and welcome again. Glenn Wimpee > Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:25:55 +0000> From: lockerridge@hughes.net> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group> > Hello folks,> > My name is Terri McCain.. I hail from the state of Arkansas. I am a > female 49 years of age and I like rocks.> > I am in the middle of a beautiful part of the United States and have > only a small journey to look for arrowheads and other Indian artifacts, > fossils, and drive a little further and I am in Hot Springs county. > > I love to go to Murfreesboro and look for diamonds there at the State > Park. I have read all of the online information from the Sweet > Surrender Mine in Mt. Ida and hope to visit there this summer.> > I don't really know a lot about the scientific side of the ground we > walk on .. but I have always been fascinated by it, and anyone who > knows me well enough to go anywhere with me.. complains that I never > look where I am walking.. I am always looking for a "way cool rock".> > I probably won't have much to contribute to the science of rock and > mineral compositon or any of the things I have read in your mailing I > looked at, but I bet I will learn a lot by reading the digest every > day. I look forward to being taught by the best it would seem.> > thankyou for allowing me to join such a learned and experienced group > of fellow rock lovers> > Terri McCain _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Thu Dec 20 17:51:21 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Thu Dec 20 17:51:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend? In-Reply-To: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> References: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> Message-ID: WOW! Anyone know what the fossil I.D. is likely to be? Glenn > Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:45:04 -0500> From: jeanne@jeannius.com> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend?> > http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-OPAL-SHELLFISH-FOSSIL_W0QQitemZ230205297827QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3214QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem> -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > *My Jewelry:* *http://www.jeannius.com*> > *Silver Threads, Making Wire Filigree Jewelry(Book):*> > *http://www.silverthreadsfiligree.com*> > *Jewelry Artists Guild: http://www.jewelryartistsguild.com*> > *Family: http://www.rhodes-moen.com*> > *Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/jeanniusdesigns*> _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Dec 20 18:07:30 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Dec 20 18:07:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group References: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <010a01c84376$3dead060$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Terri, This is a good group to have if you are going to visit other places. You are likely to have contacts to take you collecting all over the country (and beyond). You are certainly in my age group - I'll be 49 in 10 days! It is easy to be overwhelmed by the amount of information out there in our hobby. The key is to take it in small bits; from the tone of your note that sounds like something you already do. Being overwhelmed by information tends to make a person lose interest. Many of us on this list are fountains of knowledge, but we also love pretty rocks! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terri McCain" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:25 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group > Hello folks, > > My name is Terri McCain.. I hail from the state of Arkansas. I am a > female 49 years of age and I like rocks. > > I am in the middle of a beautiful part of the United States and have > only a small journey to look for arrowheads and other Indian artifacts, > fossils, and drive a little further and I am in Hot Springs county. > > I love to go to Murfreesboro and look for diamonds there at the State > Park. I have read all of the online information from the Sweet > Surrender Mine in Mt. Ida and hope to visit there this summer. > > I don't really know a lot about the scientific side of the ground we > walk on .. but I have always been fascinated by it, and anyone who > knows me well enough to go anywhere with me.. complains that I never > look where I am walking.. I am always looking for a "way cool rock". > > I probably won't have much to contribute to the science of rock and > mineral compositon or any of the things I have read in your mailing I > looked at, but I bet I will learn a lot by reading the digest every > day. I look forward to being taught by the best it would seem. > > thankyou for allowing me to join such a learned and experienced group > of fellow rock lovers > > Terri McCain > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From OnyxCollector at aol.com Thu Dec 20 18:33:55 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 20 18:34:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" Message-ID: PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion group about sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and I'd like to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should people have to earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? Is the knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should be paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd sure like to hear what you have to say. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ajs at frii.com Thu Dec 20 18:46:10 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Thu Dec 20 18:46:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <20071221024610.A23521CC35@io.frii.com> > Using mussels instead of brains. Classic. In the visitor center at the Great Basin National Monument, there is (or at least was a few years ago) a massive slab of bristlecone pine wood. It wasn't labeled, but upon inquiry I learned that it was, in fact, a piece of the (now known to be) oldest ever known tree, which was cut down (with USFS permission) many years ago in order to count the rings... After a coring device imported from far away, broke. Kind of similar situation. You can probably find this apocryphal story on the web too... Fortunately we now know that aspen groves (clones), creosote bushes, and what else? Live a lot longer than 5000 years. Bristlecone pines are rugged and beautiful, but are outdone for longevity by less glamorous biota. Cheers, Alan Silverstein From pttrefrn at triwest.net Thu Dec 20 19:49:52 2007 From: pttrefrn at triwest.net (Ronald and Patricia Potter-Efron) Date: Thu Dec 20 19:49:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group References: <29721463.1198153555999.JavaMail.?@fh058.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <006a01c84384$8b4ccf30$0201a8c0@EMACHINEDESKTOP> Welcome, Terri. You sound a lot like me, my family says I never see the sky cause I'm always looking rocks.. (of course I do, just not when I'm looking for rocks). Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terri McCain" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:25 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Introducing myself to the group > Hello folks, > > My name is Terri McCain.. I hail from the state of Arkansas. I am a > female 49 years of age and I like rocks. > > I am in the middle of a beautiful part of the United States and have > only a small journey to look for arrowheads and other Indian artifacts, > fossils, and drive a little further and I am in Hot Springs county. > > I love to go to Murfreesboro and look for diamonds there at the State > Park. I have read all of the online information from the Sweet > Surrender Mine in Mt. Ida and hope to visit there this summer. > > I don't really know a lot about the scientific side of the ground we > walk on .. but I have always been fascinated by it, and anyone who > knows me well enough to go anywhere with me.. complains that I never > look where I am walking.. I am always looking for a "way cool rock". > > I probably won't have much to contribute to the science of rock and > mineral compositon or any of the things I have read in your mailing I > looked at, but I bet I will learn a lot by reading the digest every > day. I look forward to being taught by the best it would seem. > > thankyou for allowing me to join such a learned and experienced group > of fellow rock lovers > > Terri McCain > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From dr00bert at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 19:55:02 2007 From: dr00bert at gmail.com (Drew) Date: Thu Dec 20 19:55:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7aac8040712201955s29f12bbdl9cfd111b768b5214@mail.gmail.com> On Dec 20, 2007 9:33 PM, wrote: > PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is > shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion > group about > sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and I'd > like > to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think > rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should > people have to > earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? This is up to the individual collector. No one can say who is wrong or right. If I want to share my collecting locations with someone else, it shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, if I don't want to share my location, that shouldn't be a problem either. But just because you found a site to collect at, doesn't mean that you are the "exclusive" owner of that site (unless, of course, you are able to stake claims... here in the east that is a no-go). Is the knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus > should be > paid for? If the individual wants to charge for the information, and there is someone willing to buy it, then so be it. Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd sure like to > hear what you have to say. > I believe you can do anything, as long as you are not treading on a claim owner or private property, or something of that nature. I have some locations around my neck of the woods that I will take people to, and once they know how to get there, they can go back whenever they'd like. There are always a few bad apples that will tear up the property or dig so recklessly that they force the closure of the spot. But I don't know if this would stop, even if people quit giving out location information. Drew --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Thu Dec 20 20:24:58 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Thu Dec 20 20:25:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This obviously depends on many factors. The sharing of knowledge I referenced was primarily meant to be in the identification and handling of specimens as well as collecting locations that are not secret. This includes lots of facets <> (pun intended). If there are secret "honey holes" I doubt that info is as forthcoming as published data on sites and what one might expect to find. Obviously also is the fact that many members share detailed trip reports. Some include fairly detailed location data while some are not as pinpointed as to where the collecting sites are. Fishing is another of my hobbies, and many fishermen are quite proud of their liar reputations. Some hot spots are kept as secret as possible while others are openly shared and even published. I guess it is wisdom rather than basic knowledge that I see shared so freely here. My definition of wisdom is knowledge (book learnin') reinforced by experience. IMHO. Glenn > From: OnyxCollector@aol.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 21:33:55 -0500> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely"> > PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is > shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion group about > sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and I'd like > to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think > rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should people have to > earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? Is the > knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should be > paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd sure like > to hear what you have to say.> > > > **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)> > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---> multipart/alternative> text/plain (text body -- kept)> text/html> ---> -- > _______________________________________________> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> Subscription Services:> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _________________________________________________________________ i?m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 21:04:25 2007 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Thu Dec 20 21:04:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <308486.43520.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Earn it? Maybe, but the unrestricted Internet is a too broad and too uncontrolled medium to share such hard earned knowledge upon. The life expectancy of a collecting site is under a month when published on the Internet owing to predation by unscrupulous, Obsessive-Compulsive collectors with no moral reservations about entry into closed areas, and those who think getting permission is only for others. The result is the site is closed to all. So it is a bit futile in the first place to share the info. I can think of 3 sites that were closed for a long time owing that someone "snuck" in and used dynamite to loosen up the overburden--Yah Right! Hummm...Wasn't there a report of one such person who trespassed into a quarry over a weekend to be found by the owners Monday morning. Seems he tried to drop a wall and succeeded in dropping the whole ledge the road was on. He might have made it out but Mr Brilliant parked on the far side of his blasting experiment. I wonder if they gave him his truck back or if it is still there on the ledge as a testament to stupidity. As to the question at hand, I think it is more prudent to share person to person when one has had a chance to assess if the "sharee" is the type of person you would hunt with or give the keys to your car to. If not, then be vague or inform them that it is by invitation only and invites are impossible to come by. ON THE OTHER HAND--I believe there should be a depository for site descriptions as much of mineral and fossil sites are the foundation for shopping malls and subdivisions. Three of the prolific fossil sites I was working last year are now gone. Eman From tjokela at execulink.com Thu Dec 20 22:49:29 2007 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Thu Dec 20 22:49:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" References: <308486.43520.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c8439d$a2a8b130$6400a8c0@Junior> snip >The life expectancy of a collecting site is under a month when published on the > Internet... snip ----------------------- Er... no. By that logic we wouldn't have any localities left. The internet is a way of disseminating knowledge. Decrying it, fighting it, is like burning books. Not gonna work. Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Business: http://www.element51.com Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com From magnet at crocoite.com Fri Dec 21 00:50:02 2007 From: magnet at crocoite.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?magnet?=) Date: Fri Dec 21 00:50:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Fourth Issue of Australian & New Zealand Mineral Collector Magazine Out Now... Message-ID: <20071221085002.16514.qmail@webmachine101.com> Hi all The fourth issue of the Australian and New Zealand Mineral Collector magazine is now out. This issue is the first one to focus on one area, the Queenstown district in western Tasmania, and in particular, the famous Mt. Lyell mine. It is full colour, 28 pages, and only $10US available from Lulu - http://www.lulu.com/smartarts If you are going to order a copy directly, can I suggest that you use the 'Standard' option for shipping. It is by far most economical, and usually arrives within a couple of weeks. Regards Steve Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/ From bilmcc1948 at msn.com Fri Dec 21 01:11:08 2007 From: bilmcc1948 at msn.com (Bill McCullough) Date: Fri Dec 21 01:12:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL In-Reply-To: <20071221024610.A23521CC35@io.frii.com> References: <4769D7F7.78EA@Tomaszewski.net> <20071221024610.A23521CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: I guess the death of the poor beast was its ex-clamation point, then? (I hope no one mentioned that...sometimes I miss a post or two.) --Bill McCullough -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Alan Silverstein Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 9:46 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] SCIENTISTS KILL THE OLDEST KNOWN ANIMAL > Using mussels instead of brains. Classic. In the visitor center at the Great Basin National Monument, there is (or at least was a few years ago) a massive slab of bristlecone pine wood. It wasn't labeled, but upon inquiry I learned that it was, in fact, a piece of the (now known to be) oldest ever known tree, which was cut down (with USFS permission) many years ago in order to count the rings... After a coring device imported from far away, broke. Kind of similar situation. You can probably find this apocryphal story on the web too... Fortunately we now know that aspen groves (clones), creosote bushes, and what else? Live a lot longer than 5000 years. Bristlecone pines are rugged and beautiful, but are outdone for longevity by less glamorous biota. Cheers, Alan Silverstein -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 05:26:01 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 05:28:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend? In-Reply-To: References: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> Message-ID: <200712211328.lBLDSnj8032333@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Glen, these are not at all rare. The Opal Mine in Kowloon City, Hong Kong has a display of a few tens of them. Here's one: http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=4631 The point was that the seller is a huckster or is seriously disillusioned about the actual value of Coober Pedey precious opal. At 05:51 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote: >WOW! Anyone know what the fossil I.D. is likely to be? >Glenn Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Pmodreski at aol.com Fri Dec 21 05:35:08 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 21 05:35:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil... Message-ID: In a message dated 12/20/2007 6:51:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, pawpawtiger@hotmail.com writes: WOW! Anyone know what the fossil I.D. is likely to be? Glenn Hi Glenn, The opalized clams and other fossil shells apparently are quite common in the Australian opal fields; I bought a specimen myself this summer, at a rock shop in Glenwood Springs CO, of all places. The lesser quality specimens (just solid white opal with only a hint of fire) are not expensive at all. The best website I could find right now describing them was, _http://www.openallday.au.com/OpalizedShells.html_ (http://www.openallday.au.com/OpalizedShells.html) (most websites only offer "opalized clams" for sale and don't say anything further) The fossils are Cretaceous, and this website says, OPALIZED SHELLS Coober Pedy, South Australia Some Identified Species of Opalized Shells Cockle - Cyrenopsis australiensis Mussel - Eyrena tatei Fan Shell - Maccoyella barklyi Ornamental Sand Snail - Euspira reflecta Smooth Sand Snail - Euspira ornatissima Bivalve brooch Shell - Trigonidae About 110 million years ago there was a shallow sea which covered much of inland Australia. ... The varieties of fossils found in these ancient beds, include molluscs such as cockles, mussels, clams and sea snails, belemnites, which were squid like animals that looked similar to cuttlefish, crinoids or sea lilies and some now extinct species of marine reptiles - Ichthyosaurs, Pliosaurs and Plesiosaurs. There are lots of good pictures of the opalized fossils on that website. Cheers! Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 05:33:30 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 05:36:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> That's a bizarre debate. Sounds like the smog is getting a little thick down in SoCal. Greed and selfishness is killing this already dying hobby. Sharing collecting sites makes sense if only from a survivalist perspective; if everything was kept secret, what would newcomers to the hobby do? Spend years tracking down new places to find rocks, fossils, minerals etc.? Wrong. They would get disillusioned and find something else to do with their spare time. I have seen it happen, in fact this "hoarder" mentality has caused the death of some of the local rock clubs. You can only tell someone "no" a few times before they get the hint and go away for good. Maybe I will Join LA Rocks just to post a few hundred pairs of GPS coords I have for CA collecting sites :D At 06:33 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote: >PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is >shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks >discussion group about >sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, >and I'd like >to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think >rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should >people have to >earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone >else? Is the >knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should be >paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to >use? I'd sure like >to hear what you have to say. > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Ted at crystalgems.com Fri Dec 21 06:06:49 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Fri Dec 21 06:06:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002101c843da$bae8ce50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Don't you already do that? What Tim is too modest to state is that he provides sites, maps, GPS cords, directions and tips on where to dig the better/good sites. Check out his website: http://orerockon.com/ and his CD of rock hunting sites is the best deal out there for rock hunting. At his current price (is the holiday special still on?) it is the next best thing to freely sharing (with a strict definition of free). I, an Easterner who occasionally spends large sums of money to drive west for collecting, considers Tim's CD indispensable. Also check out Gary's masmils database; available on Ebay. Some states (Utah comes to mind) and colleges provides lots of information about collecting sites. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:33 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" That's a bizarre debate. Sounds like the smog is getting a little thick down in SoCal. Greed and selfishness is killing this already dying hobby. Sharing collecting sites makes sense if only from a survivalist perspective; if everything was kept secret, what would newcomers to the hobby do? Spend years tracking down new places to find rocks, fossils, minerals etc.? Wrong. They would get disillusioned and find something else to do with their spare time. I have seen it happen, in fact this "hoarder" mentality has caused the death of some of the local rock clubs. You can only tell someone "no" a few times before they get the hint and go away for good. Maybe I will Join LA Rocks just to post a few hundred pairs of GPS coords I have for CA collecting sites :D At 06:33 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote: >PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is >shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks >discussion group about >sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, >and I'd like >to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think >rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should >people have to >earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone >else? Is the >knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should be >paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to >use? I'd sure like >to hear what you have to say. > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 06:17:39 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 06:23:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <002101c843da$bae8ce50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002101c843da$bae8ce50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <200712211420.lBLEKSLl002982@bubbleator.drizzle.com> If you can wait until after Christmas, yes it is, since I believe even the USPS won't guarantee Priority Mail will be delivered by then. Now I want to put "AD" in the subject line lol. It used to be free, but then the negative nellies found it and just wouldn't leave me alone. I discovered that they will never, ever, pay for something to complain about it, and voila! The CD was born! And no, they weren't all from LA. Seems that central/eastern Oregon & southern Idaho are also hotspots of negativism, since I still get the occasional bashing email from there from someone who has "heard of" or "seen" the CD. A particularly infamous email warned that I and my Mt Hood Rock Club "cronies" would suffer unspecified dire consequences if we were caught on any of this person's "claims" (he had and currently has no legal claims listed in the BLM database). That's the attitude I was referring to, BTW. How would you like to be a newbie and get threatened with bodily harm if you chose to dig rocks in a place that someone else didn't want you to dig in? At 06:06 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Don't you already do that? > >What Tim is too modest to state is that he provides sites, maps, GPS cords, >directions and tips on where to dig the better/good sites. > >Check out his website: http://orerockon.com/ and his CD of rock hunting >sites is the best deal out there for rock hunting. At his current price (is >the holiday special still on?) it is the next best thing to freely sharing >(with a strict definition of free). I, an Easterner who occasionally spends >large sums of money to drive west for collecting, considers Tim's CD >indispensable. > >Also check out Gary's masmils database; available on Ebay. > >Some states (Utah comes to mind) and colleges provides lots of information >about collecting sites. > >Ted Kowalski >Fredericksburg, VA USA > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >[mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher >Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:33 AM >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared >freely" > >That's a bizarre debate. Sounds like the smog is getting a little >thick down in SoCal. Greed and selfishness is killing this already >dying hobby. Sharing collecting sites makes sense if only from a >survivalist perspective; if everything was kept secret, what would >newcomers to the hobby do? Spend years tracking down new places to >find rocks, fossils, minerals etc.? Wrong. They would get >disillusioned and find something else to do with their spare time. I >have seen it happen, in fact this "hoarder" mentality has caused the >death of some of the local rock clubs. You can only tell someone "no" >a few times before they get the hint and go away for good. Maybe I >will Join LA Rocks just to post a few hundred pairs of GPS coords I >have for CA collecting sites :D > >At 06:33 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote: > >PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is > >shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks > >discussion group about > >sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, > >and I'd like > >to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think > >rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should > >people have to > >earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone > >else? Is the > >knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should be > >paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to > >use? I'd sure like > >to hear what you have to say. > > Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Ted at crystalgems.com Fri Dec 21 07:20:26 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Fri Dec 21 07:20:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <200712211420.lBLEKSLl002982@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com><002101c843da$bae8ce50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <200712211420.lBLEKSLl002982@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <004b01c843e5$03710750$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Since we strayed a little bit on this topic; that is, generalized threats to scare people about areas under claim. On our last trip west this past summer, we took the time to visit several BLM offices and the corresponding county courthouses (in some states like Nevada, claims must be registered in both offices and paid for yearly for the claim to be legal). We had heard from numerous people that "XX" collecting sites were completely claimed (Virgin Valley for example) and we couldn't get access anymore. Well, visits to the BLM and county courthouses clarified that. Most of those sites were not completely claimed, or at least there were a lot of claims that were no longer valid and had not been valid for years. Legitimate claims must be respected! As Tim mentioned there is a lot of intentional misinformation put out to deter people. Do some homework and check the official sources. Back to Tim's analogy about fishing; I once knew a much respected East coast author who wrote for periodicals catering to fishermen (and ladies). He once confided that he never returned to the dock with the same lure or rod/reel setup he caught fish with, he would put them away and substitute something else. Nor did he ever describe what he actually used, or exactly where he fished; he considered that personal knowledge and not to be shared publicly, (maybe I should mention his dire threats when he actually shared knowledge personally). At the end of all this, the best method for sharing information is still to join clubs, make friends and participate in group rock collecting trips with experienced rock hounds. Some of the best information I have gotten is from old timers who share a hole and eventually information. Don't ever grill them, respect their reticence. I have gotten great tips when I've told old timers where I plan to collect and asked their opinion, (opinions are often freely shared). They've marked my maps, told me where to dig and sometimes even showed me what to look for and expect. Two summers ago, I and my son spent the day breaking up a large quartz/biotite boulder looking for emeralds at the Crabtree mine near Spruce Grove NC. While we were whacking this boulder with a sledge, an older gentleman stopped to watch. Half an hour later, he asked if we would like to try his sledge. We had a 12 pound sledge, he had a 24 pound sledge. A 24 pound sledge is harder to swing for long, but really packs a punch. Anyway to keep the story short, this gentleman, nicknamed Stoneman, spent the next six hours working that boulder over with us. At lunch time he looked at my marked map and added some more marks. At the end of the day, he sat with us and our Gatorade and told us some terrific stories and collecting areas. We did not discuss collecting sites while whacking the boulder. Stoneman, sadly, passed away several months later and left a huge hole in the NC rockhound knowledge continuum. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Fisher Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:18 AM To: Ted@crystalgems.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" If you can wait until after Christmas, yes it is, since I believe even the USPS won't guarantee Priority Mail will be delivered by then. Now I want to put "AD" in the subject line lol. It used to be free, but then the negative nellies found it and just wouldn't leave me alone. I discovered that they will never, ever, pay for something to complain about it, and voila! The CD was born! And no, they weren't all from LA. Seems that central/eastern Oregon & southern Idaho are also hotspots of negativism, since I still get the occasional bashing email from there from someone who has "heard of" or "seen" the CD. A particularly infamous email warned that I and my Mt Hood Rock Club "cronies" would suffer unspecified dire consequences if we were caught on any of this person's "claims" (he had and currently has no legal claims listed in the BLM database). That's the attitude I was referring to, BTW. How would you like to be a newbie and get threatened with bodily harm if you chose to dig rocks in a place that someone else didn't want you to dig in? From dr00bert at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 07:48:39 2007 From: dr00bert at gmail.com (Drew) Date: Fri Dec 21 07:48:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <004b01c843e5$03710750$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002101c843da$bae8ce50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <200712211420.lBLEKSLl002982@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004b01c843e5$03710750$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <7aac8040712210748h5ca36a29y857e33c41e6d2736@mail.gmail.com> On 12/21/07, Ted Kowalski wrote: > > Two summers ago, I and my son spent the day breaking up a large > quartz/biotite boulder looking for emeralds at the Crabtree mine near > Spruce > Grove NC. While we were whacking this boulder with a sledge, an older > gentleman stopped to watch. Half an hour later, he asked if we would like > to > try his sledge. We had a 12 pound sledge, he had a 24 pound sledge. A 24 > pound sledge is harder to swing for long, but really packs a punch. Anyway > to keep the story short, this gentleman, nicknamed Stoneman, spent the > next > six hours working that boulder over with us. At lunch time he looked at my > marked map and added some more marks. At the end of the day, he sat with > us > and our Gatorade and told us some terrific stories and collecting areas. > We > did not discuss collecting sites while whacking the boulder. Stoneman, > sadly, passed away several months later and left a huge hole in the NC > rockhound knowledge continuum. > > Ted Kowalski > Fredericksburg, VA USA Just to set the facts... it was in Spruce Pine, not Spruce Grove... I know, I know, I'm a nitpicker... Also, Stoneman's name was Robert Creason, and he was a well-seasoned rockhound. He was a great guy, and I dearly miss digging with him. I shared a campsite with him once down in Franklin, NC and he shared a lot of stories with me about his growing up and rockhounding across the US. We had breakfast together at Hardee's and then we went to my first corundum site (Cherokee Mine in the Cowee Valley, which is a native stone bucket mine). He never grew tired of me asking, "Is this corundum?" (when all of it was quartz)... he knew a lot about Chunky Gal mountain and had a lot of "secret spots", but as Ted said, if you spent some time with him he would dole out some of those spots. Drew --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Fri Dec 21 07:57:46 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Fri Dec 21 07:58:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <7aac8040712210748h5ca36a29y857e33c41e6d2736@mail.gmail.com> References: <200712211336.lBLDaIJo006314@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002101c843da$bae8ce50$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <200712211420.lBLEKSLl002982@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004b01c843e5$03710750$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <7aac8040712210748h5ca36a29y857e33c41e6d2736@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005201c843ea$3a985850$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Drew is correct on all counts, I erred when I used my memory (always fallible). Thanks Drew! Ted _____ From: Drew [mailto:dr00bert@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:49 AM To: Ted@crystalgems.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" On 12/21/07, Ted Kowalski wrote: Two summers ago, I and my son spent the day breaking up a large quartz/biotite boulder looking for emeralds at the Crabtree mine near Spruce Grove NC. While we were whacking this boulder with a sledge, an older gentleman stopped to watch. Half an hour later, he asked if we would like to try his sledge. We had a 12 pound sledge, he had a 24 pound sledge. A 24 pound sledge is harder to swing for long, but really packs a punch. Anyway to keep the story short, this gentleman, nicknamed Stoneman, spent the next six hours working that boulder over with us. At lunch time he looked at my marked map and added some more marks. At the end of the day, he sat with us and our Gatorade and told us some terrific stories and collecting areas. We did not discuss collecting sites while whacking the boulder. Stoneman, sadly, passed away several months later and left a huge hole in the NC rockhound knowledge continuum. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA Just to set the facts... it was in Spruce Pine, not Spruce Grove... I know, I know, I'm a nitpicker... Also, Stoneman's name was Robert Creason, and he was a well-seasoned rockhound. He was a great guy, and I dearly miss digging with him. I shared a campsite with him once down in Franklin, NC and he shared a lot of stories with me about his growing up and rockhounding across the US. We had breakfast together at Hardee's and then we went to my first corundum site (Cherokee Mine in the Cowee Valley, which is a native stone bucket mine). He never grew tired of me asking, "Is this corundum?" (when all of it was quartz)... he knew a lot about Chunky Gal mountain and had a lot of "secret spots", but as Ted said, if you spent some time with him he would dole out some of those spots. Drew --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Dec 21 08:05:05 2007 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 21 08:06:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> ? After reading all the posts thus far, what hasn't been mentioned is: some sites are sensitive areas that are still under research by the Geo Survey or an university. Those are kept secret until the research is done. Also, there is always the fear that someone will take everything available and leave none for the next collector. There are sites here in WV like that. Dave -----Original Message----- From: OnyxCollector@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 9:33 pm Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion group about sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and I'd like to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should people have to earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? Is the knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should be paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd sure like to hear what you have to say. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Dec 21 08:32:12 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Dec 21 08:32:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <004201c843ef$0a854510$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I don't mind sharing locations that are public access and are prolific either by their nature or size of exposure(s). I also don't mind sharing among people I know (even a little) or visitors who won't be "regulars" to my area. I don't share localities that have scientific significance (based on my own 40+ years of geological experience), private locations and locations given to me in confidence (sites I've been invited to visit but asked not to take others) even if they are on public land. Certain quarry operators who let me in do not want others to come in unless they are with me. They may let others in, but that is not my concern since they are the people who run it! Sharing enables me to have friends in other places who will take me collecting when I'm in their neck of the woods. And if they are really far away and probably won't ask me to take them collecting around here, I try to bring local material as a thank you gift. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" > > > > ? After reading all the posts thus far, what hasn't been mentioned is: > some sites are sensitive areas that are still under research by the Geo > Survey or an university. Those are kept secret until the research is done. > Also, there is always the fear that someone will take everything available > and leave none for the next collector. There are sites here in WV like > that. > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OnyxCollector@aol.com > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 9:33 pm > Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" > > > > > PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is > shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion > group > about > sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and I'd > like > to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think > rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should > people have > to > earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? > Is the > knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus should > be > paid for? Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd > sure > like > to hear what you have to say. > > > > **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - > http://webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gene at fossilnut.com Fri Dec 21 08:32:31 2007 From: gene at fossilnut.com (gene@fossilnut.com) Date: Fri Dec 21 08:32:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" References: <308486.43520.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013701c843ef$1673c630$0301a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> Since he apparently didn't die this only qualifies for honorable mention on the Darwin Awards.Nonetheless I would love to have a reference or an article on this it it hit the news. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr EMan" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" > Earn it? Maybe, but the unrestricted Internet is a too broad and too > uncontrolled medium to share such hard earned knowledge upon. The life > expectancy of a collecting site is under a month when published on the > Internet owing to predation by unscrupulous, Obsessive-Compulsive > collectors with no moral reservations about entry into closed areas, > and those who think getting permission is only for others. The result > is the site is closed to all. So it is a bit futile in the first place > to share the info. > > I can think of 3 sites that were closed for a long time owing that > someone "snuck" in and used dynamite to loosen up the overburden--Yah > Right! Hummm...Wasn't there a report of one such person who trespassed > into a quarry over a weekend to be found by the owners Monday morning. > Seems he tried to drop a wall and succeeded in dropping the whole ledge > the road was on. He might have made it out but Mr Brilliant parked on > the far side of his blasting experiment. I wonder if they gave him his > truck back or if it is still there on the ledge as a testament to > stupidity. > > As to the question at hand, I think it is more prudent to share person > to person when one has had a chance to assess if the "sharee" is the > type of person you would hunt with or give the keys to your car to. If > not, then be vague or inform them that it is by invitation only and > invites are impossible to come by. > > ON THE OTHER HAND--I believe there should be a depository for site > descriptions as much of mineral and fossil sites are the foundation for > shopping malls and subdivisions. Three of the prolific fossil sites I > was working last year are now gone. > > Eman > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 08:37:29 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 08:40:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Not always. The Royal Tyrrell Museum in Drumheller, Alberta actually encourages fossil collectors to dig in some of their active research sites. They just don't publish the localities until they author a research paper. If it weren't for amateur collectors, many of the Cretaceous fossil sites on Vancouver Island (where I collected at an active RTM site) would be far less well understood. They even have Vancouver Island Paleo. Soc. members collecting, then making and staining thin sections from concretions to show the plant materials in them. The North Dakota School of Mines asks for help in collecting one of their research sites in Oregon every year. You just have to express genuine interest and you will sometimes be welcomed; in fact usually you can keep what you couldn't otherwise keep (not getting specific here because I don't know the BLM's take on that LOL) if it isn't important to their research. OTOH, if you sneak in and get caught, you can get arrested like these "collectors": http://tinyurl.com/2lmfyx And Dave, I challenge you to clearly demonstrate that people can collect a site until absolutely nothing is left. The only sites I know of that are truly gone are those that were constructed over/shot closed/intentionally buried. Others have been lost to floods and landslides, but I can't verify that any site that had worthwhile material to collect was truly and forever denuded of all material by rockhounds. At 08:05 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >? After reading all the posts thus far, what hasn't been mentioned is: >some sites are sensitive areas that are still under research by the Geo >Survey or an university. Those are kept secret until the research is done. >Also, there is always the fear that someone will take everything available >and leave none for the next collector. There are sites here in WV like that. >Dave Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 08:47:27 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 08:50:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] OFF TOPIC Darwin awards In-Reply-To: <013701c843ef$1673c630$0301a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> References: <308486.43520.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <013701c843ef$1673c630$0301a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> Message-ID: <200712211650.lBLGoJXN003644@bubbleator.drizzle.com> You have to gravely injure and/or castrate yourself to earn that dubious distinction at the Darwin Awards site. The point is that you tried to remove your inferior genes from the gene pool but you were too stupid to succeed. One of the best of these I ever saw (don't know if it is still on the site): 1st RUNNER-UP: Doctors at Portland University Hospital said an Oregon man shot through the skull by a hunting arrow is lucky to be alive and will be released soon from the hospital. Tony Roberts, 25, lost his right eye last weekend during an initiation into a men's rafting club, Mountain Men Anonymous (probably known now as Stupid Mountain Men Anonymous) in Grants Pass, Oregon. A friend tried to shoot a beer can off his head, but the arrow entered Robert's right eye. Doctors said that had the arrow gone 1 millimeter to the left, a major blood vessel would have been cut and Roberts would have died instantly. Neurosurgeon Doctor Johnny Delashaw at the University Hospital in Portland said the arrow went through 8 to 10 inches of brain with the tip protruding at the rear of his skull, yet somehow managed to miss all major blood vessels. Delashaw also said that had Roberts tried to pull the arrow out on his own, he surely would have killed himself. Roberts admitted afterwards that he and his friends had been drinking that afternoon. Said Roberts, "I feel so dumb about this." No charges have been filed, but the Josephine County district attorney's office said the initiation stunt is under investigation. At 08:32 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Since he apparently didn't die this only qualifies for honorable >mention on the Darwin Awards.Nonetheless I would love to have a >reference or an article on this it it hit the news. >Gene Hartstein Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Dec 21 09:04:21 2007 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 21 09:04:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <8CA120AAA8C7E32-F14-2A25@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> Hi Tim, ? If a site is no longer being dug up, as in a quarry, sure there may be more in the surrounding rock, but unless you blast it open, which is illegal, the site has effectively been swept clean. If you should ever come to WV, I can show you several sites, where there used to be material, but you can't find a trace of it now. Most sites in WV produce very little anyway, so it doesn't take much to take it all and leave nothing. In this state, there is a lot of distrust between professionals and collectors. I just had a good lesson taught to me by a collector from New York, who misrepresented himself to gain knowledge. I have a very bad taste left from him an will be along time before I get over it. Oh well, to each his own. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Tim Fisher To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:37 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" Not always. The Royal Tyrrell Museum in Drumheller, Alberta actually encourages fossil collectors to dig in some of their active research sites. They just don't publish the localities until they author a research paper. If it weren't for amateur collectors, many of the Cretaceous fossil sites on Vancouver Island (where I collected at an active RTM site) would be far less well understood. They even have Vancouver Island Paleo. Soc. members collecting, then making and staining thin sections from concretions to show the plant materials in them. The North Dakota School of Mines asks for help in collecting one of their research sites in Oregon every year. You just have to express genuine interest and you will sometimes be welcomed; in fact usually you can keep what you couldn't otherwise keep (not getting specific here because I don't know the BLM's take on that LOL) if it isn't important to their research. OTOH, if you sneak in and get caught, you can get arrested like these "collectors":? ? http://tinyurl.com/2lmfyx? ? And Dave, I challenge you to clearly demonstrate that people can collect a site until absolutely nothing is left. The only sites I know of that are truly gone are those that were constructed over/shot closed/intentionally buried. Others have been lost to floods and landslides, but I can't verify that any site that had worthwhile material to collect was truly and forever denuded of all material by rockhounds.? ? At 08:05 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote:? ? ? >? After reading all the posts thus far, what hasn't been mentioned is:? >some sites are sensitive areas that are still under research by the Geo? >Survey or an university. Those are kept secret until the research is done.? >Also, there is always the fear that someone will take everything available? >and leave none for the next collector. There are sites here in WV like that.? >Dave? ? Tim Fisher? Ore-ROCK-On!? Email address at http://OreRockOn.com ? -- _______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From OnyxCollector at aol.com Fri Dec 21 09:23:10 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 21 09:23:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" Message-ID: Many thanks to all of you for your opinions! I applaud the members of this list for being able to give their opinions, and sometimes disagreeing, without being nasty about it. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Dec 21 09:39:53 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Dec 21 09:38:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> Tim Fisher wrote: > ... I can't verify that any site that had worthwhile > material to collect was truly and forever denuded of all material by > rockhounds. That depends upon the size of the site. I know of a few "micro-environments" where a particular odd mineral was located. Sometimes these are a few feet across, sometimes a few tens of yards, but they are small and represent some unique localized mineralization. These were subsequently collected out. It is not hard to imagine that would happen. One careful collector could work such a site for a while, but once it is made public, if there is something really worth collecting, there is a "run on the bank" (to use a term from the Great Depression) and people will swarm over the site and sledgehammer everything in an attempt to get what they can, while they can. Some may recall my stories from the summer, when I was out in the middle of nowhere and encountered an elderly couple, with one of Lanny Ream's books in hand, looking for large blue kyanites. Well, we found the one outcrop where these were located, but all that were left were tiny kyanites. A discussion followed here where Lanny mentioned that the site (which is pretty obscure) had been collected out after the book was published. So it goes. The sad part of the story is that I have since shown my collected materials to some of the professors who are working on the dating and structure of the area. Apparently I've found some things that they haven't seen before, like garnets with three growth layers. This is not related to my thesis but I feel obligated to pass on the info to others who are working on the area. It seems they appreciate and respect my observations and in fact that ridge may be the key to solving some regional puzzles, since it is poorly known and poorly studied and few people are aware of blue kyanite associated with garnet that far west of where it is already known to be. However, it would have been nice to have that outcrop intact, but it is too late now. I am *not* saying it should not have been published in the book; quite the contrary, who could have known it would be important? In fact, without the book, and without meeting two rockhounds who had it, *I* wouldn't have known it was there either, and it would not have been part of the new study. Funny how things fall together. So, except in cases of restricted property, there is rarely a right or wrong answer. If every collector only took what they could use for themselves, it wouldn't be much of an issue. However, no site, no matter how large, is destined to last forever (just ask the folks at the Franklin Mineral Museum who run the Buckwheat Dump site) and there must always be a balance between responsible collecting and not letting good material go to waste. Best, Don From lanny at lrream.com Fri Dec 21 10:18:52 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Fri Dec 21 10:18:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 20, 2007, at 6:33 PM, OnyxCollector@aol.com wrote: > PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is > shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion > group about > sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and > I'd like > to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think > rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should > people have to > earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? Rockhounds should share collecting sites; that's how most learn of many of the locations. I find it really galling to listen to someone tell me how I have to keep his "secret" location quiet when I know he only learned of it because someone freely told him, or it's something I've known about for decades. > Is the > knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus > should be > paid for? There is no way by any definition that knowledge of a collecting site is "intellectual property." Knowledge of a collecting site is nothing but scientific data which cannot be copyrighted, patented or trademarked. There is no rule or law that says intellectual property has to be paid for either, only that you have exclusive right to its use if you so choose, you may be able to make money off intellectual property, but a lot of it is given away freely. Some people may make money off such knowledge (such as those of us who write guidebooks), but the money is made off the convenience of the information being in a book with maps and a description, not because the knowledge of the locality is the author's property. Looking at it from a different viewpoint though, if it is a discovery that someone recently made and they want to make money off of it somehow, why not? I believe in capitalism and this is a country based on capitalism. Sell the information if you can. Write a book and sell it. If it truly is a new discovery, stake a claim or get mining rights and mine the specimens. > Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd sure like > to hear what you have to say. If the location is open to collecting by others it is no more wrong to post GPS coordinates than to post any other description and access. I have on occasion limited what I've written in articles and guides about some locations to "keep the peace" amongst those who didn't want certain information revealed. I also keep secret information about other's finds of new locations when they shared with me but didn't want it to become widely known. I'm not against that, I've even kept secret some locations I've discovered until I've throughly checked them out. In the long run though, I only keep secrets that others have entrusted to me and most of them have eventually become "common knowledge." Share you information, right down to the GPS coordinates if you please. Doing that is a lot more human than keeping a location a secret to your death. Regards, Lanny From lockerridge at hughes.net Fri Dec 21 11:16:11 2007 From: lockerridge at hughes.net (Terri McCain) Date: Fri Dec 21 11:16:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Rockhounds Digest, Vol 43, Issue 22> Mexico's Cave of Crystals Message-ID: <18449015.1198264571265.JavaMail.?@fh028.dia.cp.net> Hello everyone.. Merry Christmas! I was looking at the National Georgraphic website yesterday and found this wonderful artical about a cave uncovered in Mexico which has enormous crystals.. It includes some really fabulous photos. But being familar with photoshop, I would have probably tossed it out as fake unless it had not been on the National Geographic website. here is the url if you would care to look at the photos and read the article. This may be old news to the group, but on the offchance that I might be able to share something really incredible I am posting this. I am enjoying this digest and your discussions so very much! Thankyou once again for the chance to become a member of your mailing list! http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/photogalleries/giant- crystals-cave/index.html Mexico's Cueva de los Cristales (Cave of Crystals) contains some of the world's largest known natural crystals?translucent beams of gypsum as long as 36 feet (11 meters). terri mccain From jr50wv at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 11:35:00 2007 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Fri Dec 21 11:35:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting localitites Message-ID: <994777.85392.qm@web56305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi: I'm not surprised to find that the vast majority of folks on this list favor sharing knowledge. Dave, I know what you mean about sites around WV, they're few and far between, and sparse at best around here. But really, many sites will eventually be scoured pretty clean. I think the Dallas Gem Mine in San Benito County CA is an interesting kind of exception, they mined through the pegmatite, and processed everything as ore. But there are still miniatures and crystals in the dump, so people pay to visit and go through the leavings and find nice specimens. Up in Maine some of the very old toumaline quarries, which were originally operated for white feldspar for the china and porcelain industries, are nearly scoured away. But then a new lease-holder will come in with a different plan, and often strike it rich in pockets of aquamarine and tourmaline, like Coromoto Mining did just a couple of years ago. I enjoy showing people places I've found that are productive, and I've bought other collectors a tank of gas and lunch in return for the guidance they provide in collecting in their neighborhoods. Steve Garza comes to mind, a great guy with a huge amount of experience and knowledge who can take you to a dozen great public collecting spots in one day. Well, 6 or 8 anyway, on a long summer day. Happy birthday, Alan, I'll be 57 in 6 days, only the best are born in December! KoR (Keep on Rockin') everyone, and happy holidays! JR --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Fri Dec 21 11:52:45 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Dec 21 11:52:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] changing topic (was) Rockhounds Digest, Vol 43, Issue 22> Mexico's Cave of Crystals In-Reply-To: <18449015.1198264571265.JavaMail.?@fh028.dia.cp.net> References: <18449015.1198264571265.JavaMail.?@fh028.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <476BFC7B00003D50@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Terri, and reminder to everyone: Please change the topic in the Subject line to fit your message. In this case Terri did add to the Subject line, but at least on my system that got chopped off and all I saw was which is not helpful in deciding whether to open the message or not. Thanks for your comments, Terri, and indeed, Merry Christmas to you. Aloha, Kitty (for Admin Team) At 09:16 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Hello everyone.. Merry Christmas! > >I am enjoying this digest and your discussions so very much! Thankyou >once again for the chance to become a member of your mailing list! > >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/photogalleries/giant- >crystals-cave/index.html > >Mexico's Cueva de los Cristales (Cave of Crystals) contains some of >the world's largest known natural crystals?translucent beams of gypsum >as long as 36 feet (11 meters). > >terri mccain From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 20 21:25:49 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Dec 21 11:54:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" References: <7aac8040712201955s29f12bbdl9cfd111b768b5214@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <476B4CBE.469D@Tomaszewski.net> Drew, I hope everyone, including Rockhounds, always has the option of sharing, or not sharing, any information they may have, based on their personal assesment of the information, and the audience. Humans need to be able to decide. A Court Of Law is a very different forum than an online list, or a private exchange between friends/fellow rockhounds'; real rockhounds play by the rules. As a Rockhound, if you are not willing to share a collecting location (at least with your closest collector friends), in a Trip Report, you should legally claim it. Any/all collecting locations you may discover are not equal. There needs to be a balance between the audience and the quality of the collecting location. I'll share knowledge of at least 80% of the collecting locations I know of with anyone. We are going to have to get to know each other better before I share the (few) other locations I have visited. Kreigh Drew wrote: > > On Dec 20, 2007 9:33 PM, wrote: > > > PawPawTiger said Rockhounds is a "list where the knowledge of many is > > shared freely". A furious debate is raging on the LARocks discussion > > group about > > sharing the locations of places to collect rocks and minerals at, and I'd > > like > > to see some opinions of the rockhounds on this list. Do you think > > rockhounds should share the location of collection sites, or should > > people have to > > earn the right to this knowledge by going out first with someone else? > > This is up to the individual collector. No one can say who is wrong or > right. If I want to share my collecting locations with someone else, it > shouldn't be a problem. On the other hand, if I don't want to share my > location, that shouldn't be a problem either. But just because you found a > site to collect at, doesn't mean that you are the "exclusive" owner of that > site (unless, of course, you are able to stake claims... here in the east > that is a no-go). > > Is the knowledge of a collecting site "intellectual property", and thus > > should be > > paid for? > > If the individual wants to charge for the information, and there is someone > willing to buy it, then so be it. > > Is it wrong to post GPS coordinates for others to use? I'd sure like to > > hear what you have to say. > > > > I believe you can do anything, as long as you are not treading on a claim > owner or private property, or something of that nature. I have some > locations around my neck of the woods that I will take people to, and once > they know how to get there, they can go back whenever they'd like. > > There are always a few bad apples that will tear up the property or dig so > recklessly that they force the closure of the spot. But I don't know if > this would stop, even if people quit giving out location information. > > Drew > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 13:09:47 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Dec 21 13:09:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend? In-Reply-To: <200712211328.lBLDSnj8032333@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <476A71E0.6040404@jeannius.com> <200712211328.lBLDSnj8032333@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: I've seen some really nice specimens at several shows, including belemnites and mollusks and ammonites. One Australian dealer at the recent Wasatch Show in SLC, Utah had lots of great specimens. I even have a couple in my personal collection. But his did look pretty, and solidly opalized through and through with terrific fire. I also would expect anyone spending megabucks would do a bit of research prior to a purchase like that. Glenn > Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 05:26:01 -0800> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> From: nospam@orerockon.com> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Opal fossil...anyone have a couple $million to spend?> > Glen, these are not at all rare. The Opal Mine in Kowloon City, Hong > Kong has a display of a few tens of them. Here's one: > http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=4631> > The point was that the seller is a huckster or is seriously > disillusioned about the actual value of Coober Pedey precious opal.> > At 05:51 PM 12/20/2007, you wrote:> >WOW! Anyone know what the fossil I.D. is likely to be?> >Glenn> > Tim Fisher> Ore-ROCK-On!> Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > _________________________________________________________________ i?m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 14:01:53 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 14:04:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200712212204.lBLM4lU0010544@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Point taken! I wasn't thinking in such small terms, Don! :P At 09:39 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Tim Fisher wrote: > >>... I can't verify that any site that had worthwhile material to >>collect was truly and forever denuded of all material by rockhounds. > > >That depends upon the size of the site. I know of a few >"micro-environments" where a particular odd mineral was located. >Sometimes these are a few feet across, sometimes a few tens of >yards, but they are small and represent some unique localized >mineralization. These were subsequently collected out. It is not >hard to imagine that would happen. One careful collector could work >such a site for a while, but once it is made public, if there is >something really worth collecting, there is a "run on the bank" (to >use a term from the Great Depression) and people will swarm over the >site and sledgehammer everything in an attempt to get what they can, >while they can. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 14:06:01 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 14:08:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712212208.lBLM8snb011373@bubbleator.drizzle.com> OK, so why don't you go first? Where in Idaho is that very nice rutilated quartz coming from? :D Joking! At 10:18 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Share you information, right down to the GPS coordinates if you >please. Doing that is a lot more human than keeping a location a >secret to your death. > >Regards, > >Lanny Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 14:17:17 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 14:20:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mexico's Cave of Crystals In-Reply-To: <18449015.1198264571265.JavaMail.?@fh028.dia.cp.net> References: <18449015.1198264571265.JavaMail.?@fh028.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <200712212220.lBLMK6Us020591@bubbleator.drizzle.com> There were some photoshopped images floating around a couple years ago; these were debunked but the real images that the "authors" of the site inserted themselves in were from the actual cave (I believe it's a cavern in a mine). They were actually convincing to those who didn't know that the conditions in the cavern are lethal after a few minutes and the pics of these people standing next to the huge formations were impossible since they would have been corpses had they really been wearing their jeans and flannel shirts in the (as I recall) 150+ degrees F and 100% humidity of the cavern. The real videos taken more recently by some European mineralogists show them in fully contained suits with hoods and masks. I believe they stated that they even had to seal their cameras against the environment or the electronics would have fried. they used At 11:16 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Hello everyone.. Merry Christmas! > >I was looking at the National Georgraphic website yesterday and found >this wonderful artical about a cave uncovered in Mexico which has >enormous crystals.. It includes some really fabulous photos. But being >familar with photoshop, I would have probably tossed it out as fake >unless it had not been on the National Geographic website. > >here is the url if you would care to look at the photos and read the >article. This may be old news to the group, but on the offchance that I >might be able to share something really incredible I am posting this. > >I am enjoying this digest and your discussions so very much! Thankyou >once again for the chance to become a member of your mailing list! > >http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/photogalleries/giant- >crystals-cave/index.html > >Mexico's Cueva de los Cristales (Cave of Crystals) contains some of >the world's largest known natural crystals?translucent beams of gypsum >as long as 36 feet (11 meters). > > > > >terri mccain Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Bobslgn at aol.com Fri Dec 21 15:31:38 2007 From: Bobslgn at aol.com (Bobslgn@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 21 15:31:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Nevade Pet Wood Collecting Message-ID: Tim, We are going back over 15 or so years ago. I had breakfast in Gabbs and asked about the opalized wood site. Someone in the restaurant showed me a newspaper article which talked about the fossil collecting prohibition, plundering of the native man sites, and the controversy about someone being arrested for collecting petrified wood. Local residents chimed in complaining about lost revenue from the end of the big rock collecting tailgating by California rock clubs. The information was also reinforced by a couple of rock shops. I am afraid that is all I know as I haven?t had the occasion to be back that way for some time. Hope I am not leading anyone astray. Perhaps this was challenged in court and things have changed. Bob >I would like to see proof of this. Nevada is something like 90% BLM >land and the only restrictions I am aware of are in the Black Rock >Desert and only in the designated wilderness area there. In fact the >new rules for the Black Rock specifically adopt the old BLM 25 lbs. >per person per day limits. There are no specific restrictions on >collecting ANYTHING on state lands mentioned on the state's geology >dept. website. I can find no reference to new artifact collecting >rules either. At 09:57 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote: > >Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada >Jan and Cliff >WARNING! Prospective Pet Wood collectors in Nevada. >Nevada has regulations, which make collecting Pet Wood illegal and they can >confiscate your car! **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dawnmfredricks at msn.com Fri Dec 21 15:32:52 2007 From: dawnmfredricks at msn.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Fri Dec 21 15:33:01 2007 Subject: December B-days was RE: [Rockhounds] Collecting localitites Message-ID: Happy Birthday to all of you who also have December Birthdays, I know I'm a little disappointed having mine in December as there is so much stuff going on... And to keep it "OT" I hope you all get a lot of great rocks for your Special day! Dawn Fredricks Portland Oregon --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ajs at frii.com Fri Dec 21 15:49:02 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Fri Dec 21 15:49:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> Lots of good stuff already said, to which I will add... - Large site worked out: Comes to mind the example of Opal Hill, BLM land just south of I70 west of Fruita, CO, about 15 miles east of the UT border. I learned about from in a guidebook, camped there a couple of times, and hunted for hours pretty thoroughly all over the hill. It was fun strolling, but found only the barest scraps of opalized petrified wood or anything else -- among the trash and debris from campfires, partying, shooting, and just plain dumping. (What IS it with people?) - Sharing well-known sites: Obviously if I learned about it in a public way, I might as well pass on the info regardless... - Sharing lesser-known sites: I have various text files where I keep some info I'm willing to share with people who ask, but I don't broadcast it, say as a webpage. (Mostly places close to him in CO, WY, NE, UT.) As someone observed, "there ain't no profit in that." Too many yahoos out there. I want to share the fun, but not clue people who will ruin my fun. - Sharing places I found myself: Unlike most people, I do a lot of "scouting" (looking for places on my own), and over the years I've found a number of fun places to hunt that I didn't read about first. We're not talking diamonds here, just agates and jaspers mostly. Most of these sites I do share with others, per the previous paragraph... Especially if they are large areas or continually replenished. - Well-kept secrets: I confess that I have just a few places I like to go back to myself that I don't share with (hardly) anyone. Sometimes that's just 'cause it's on private land where I have permission, and I don't want other people bugging the land-owner. Other reflections: - It amazes me how few people are willing to scout for themselves, or even to go out on their own, versus, say, participating on guided field trips. Many of my spots, I was first taken on a club trip, and I took the notes necessary to get back there myself later. - GPS versus other guidance: I don't see as there's any reason to exclude GPS coords if you are giving directions. But as a practical matter, often I don't even bother saving coords, or adding them to the descriptions, unless they are really needed to help you get there. - It's also amazing how many people use a GPS and don't know about "datums". One guy wrote in Rock & Gem a while ago about all his coords (received from someone else) being off hundreds of feet, and he didn't know why. Later when I happened to chat with an R&G editor, she didn't know about datums either! Cheers, Alan Silverstein From ajs at frii.com Fri Dec 21 15:51:35 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Fri Dec 21 15:51:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] birthdays (a short meander off topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071221235135.060CB1CC35@io.frii.com> > Happy Birthday to all of you who also have December Birthdays, I know > I'm a little disappointed having mine in December as there is so much > stuff going on... I propose that the single worst day of the year for a birthday is mine: January 2. Why? About 5 years out of 7, it's the first day back to work after the holidays! NO ONE feels like celebrating any more. Fortunately, that includes me too. Cheers, Alan Silverstein From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 16:13:50 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 16:16:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Nevade Pet Wood Collecting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712220016.lBM0GjWc029983@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I could certainly see someone getting ticketed for collecting more than the limit; the BLM has been known to check people digging and cite them if they are blatantly violating the collecting rules. However, second and third-hand information like this is rarely accurate. Especially when the source is a rock that unfortunately doesn't always have the diggers' best interests in mind. At 03:31 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: > >Tim, >We are going back over 15 or so years ago. I had breakfast in Gabbs and >asked about the opalized wood site. Someone in the restaurant showed me a >newspaper article which talked about the fossil collecting prohibition, >plundering of the native man sites, and the >controversy about someone being arrested >for collecting petrified wood. Local residents chimed in complaining about >lost revenue from the end of the big rock >collecting tailgating by California >rock clubs. The information was also reinforced >by a couple of rock shops. I >am afraid that is all I know as I haven???t had the occasion to be back that >way for some time. Hope I am not leading anyone astray. Perhaps this was >challenged in court and things have changed. >Bob > >I would like to see proof of this. Nevada is something like 90% BLM > >land and the only restrictions I am aware of are in the Black Rock > >Desert and only in the designated wilderness area there. In fact the > >new rules for the Black Rock specifically adopt the old BLM 25 lbs. > >per person per day limits. There are no specific restrictions on > >collecting ANYTHING on state lands mentioned on the state's geology > >dept. website. I can find no reference to new artifact collecting > >rules either. > >At 09:57 AM 12/20/2007, you wrote: > > > >Re: Hawthorne Nevada, Gabbs Nevada > >Jan and Cliff > >WARNING! Prospective Pet Wood collectors in Nevada. > >Nevada has regulations, which > make collecting Pet Wood illegal and they can > >confiscate your car! Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 16:22:17 2007 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Fri Dec 21 16:22:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <001801c8439d$a2a8b130$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <619224.4064.qm@web51008.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Sorry but nothing I said could be construed by a careful reader as being anti-internet. We were talking about how, where and, when to share sensitive information which might be subject to abuse or exploitation. I take your book "burning remark" as satire just as my comment about life expectancy of collecting sites made public to both good and bad collectors in an unregulated medium. I agree completely to Alan's post on sharing collecting sites. Eman --- "Tim Jokela Jr." wrote: > snip > >The life expectancy of a collecting site is under a month when > published on the Internet... snip<< > ----------------------- > > Er... no. By that logic we wouldn't have any localities left. The > internet > is a way of disseminating knowledge. Decrying it, fighting it, is > like > burning books. Not gonna work. From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 16:48:15 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 16:51:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> References: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <200712220051.lBM0paMs020037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> At 03:49 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Lots of good stuff already said, to which I will add... > >- Large site worked out: Comes to mind the example of Opal Hill, BLM > land just south of I70 west of Fruita, CO, about 15 miles east of the > UT border. I learned about from in a guidebook, camped there a couple > of times, and hunted for hours pretty thoroughly all over the hill. > It was fun strolling, but found only the barest scraps of opalized > petrified wood or anything else -- among the trash and debris from > campfires, partying, shooting, and just plain dumping. (What IS it > with people?) Ah but did you dig? I too have been to the "collected out" sites and moved off a mile or so or actually dug when everyone else was scratching the ground, and hit the jackpot, so to speak. >- Well-kept secrets: I confess that I have just a few places I like to > go back to myself that I don't share with (hardly) anyone. Sometimes > that's just 'cause it's on private land where I have permission, and I > don't want other people bugging the land-owner. I agree, there are 2 or 3 ranches where I have permission to hunt fossils and the landowners absolutely do not want people knocking on the door asking for permission, so I respect their wishes. >Other reflections: > >- It amazes me how few people are willing to scout for themselves, or > even to go out on their own, versus, say, participating on guided > field trips. Many of my spots, I was first taken on a club trip, and > I took the notes necessary to get back there myself later. I think people who are newer to the hobby just aren't going to go scouting on their own, unless they already have experience, i.e boy scouts, hunting, panning, etc. I run into people who are not confident enough in their abilities all the time, and want their hand held all the way to the site, so to speak, which is fine, as long as they don't keep asking for help after they have the necessary skills to find locations on their own. >- GPS versus other guidance: I don't see as there's any reason to > exclude GPS coords if you are giving directions. But as a practical > matter, often I don't even bother saving coords, or adding them to the > descriptions, unless they are really needed to help you get there. I use my GPS even when I don't need it. It is handy to have turned on and have the locations loaded that you are going to even if you can drive there blindfolded. There have been numerous instances when I just clicked because I thought the site might have potential, and someone else went to the waypoint and hit it big. If I hadn't clicked and shared the info, the material might have gone unnoticed for a long long time. I tend to click on roadcuts as I am whizzing by if they look "right" for agate, jasper, fossils, etc. Some of these are now on my DVD because I went back and actually dug a bit or included them as "likely" spots and someone else found something there. I think it was Grant (I forget your last name Grant, sorry!) who emailed me a map with one of my waypoints on it that I had put there because I saw an aerial photo and the site looked scraped up like the Prineville C of C sites that Shirts Quant had scraped off for them at the Paulina limb cast area in Oregon. Sure enough, Grant went there and it was an old claim of Quant's that I don't think anyone alive remembers. He hit it big, so I took the NW Federation of Mineral Societies there the following Labor Day, and we came away with at least 2 limb casts over 75 lbs. (the larger was 110 lbs.) and many buckets and backpacks full of smaller, but exceptionally nice, limb casts. >- It's also amazing how many people use a GPS and don't know about > "datums". One guy wrote in Rock & Gem a while ago about all his > coords (received from someone else) being off hundreds of feet, and he > didn't know why. Later when I happened to chat with an R&G editor, > she didn't know about datums either! I saw that article, no comment as to the skills of the writer, who certainly should have suspected that it was their error when every single waypoint was off by about the same distance in the same direction, I mean, duh! A certain writer of a certain GPS rockhounding book also suffers from the same affliction. The easy way to avoid the issue is to leave your friggin GPS at the default setting of WGS84, which is the universal standard for transferring waypoints between units (thank the gods that there is a standard or the problem would be a lot worse). The problem comes when people futz (a PA Dutch word for the obvious) with their settings and then upload perfectly good WGS84 waypoints that the GPS, doing exactly what the user told it to do, obligingly treats as NAD83 or whatever silly datum they set it to and translates them to WGS84! >Cheers, >Alan Silverstein >-- Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Dec 21 17:41:13 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Dec 21 17:40:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <200712220051.lBM0paMs020037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> <200712220051.lBM0paMs020037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> Tim Fisher wrote: > The easy way to avoid the > issue is to leave your friggin GPS at the default setting of WGS84, > which is the universal standard for transferring waypoints between units > (thank the gods that there is a standard or the problem would be a lot > worse). The problem comes when people futz (a PA Dutch word for the > obvious) with their settings and then upload perfectly good WGS84 > waypoints that the GPS, doing exactly what the user told it to do, > obligingly treats as NAD83 or whatever silly datum they set it to and > translates them to WGS84! Geez Tim... perhaps a more considered discussion, in the holiday spirit, would be to point out that the datum depends on which coordinate system you use. The UTM system has many advantages over the lat/long system, though some prefer one or the other. The WGS84 datum should be used with lat/long and, for some reason, NAD27 should be used with UTM. Just like any other tool, people need to learn how to use them! I will adapt one of my favorite phrases to apply here: if you don't know how to navigate, and buy a GPS, you still don't know how to navigate, but now it's recorded electronically. I am quite surprised that nobody caught that, or that they just didn't reject the article altogether. "May all your coordinates be exact, and may the satellites reach us, every one!" All the best, Don From ajs at frii.com Fri Dec 21 18:16:59 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Fri Dec 21 18:17:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20071222021659.AFCE01CC35@io.frii.com> > ...the datum depends on which coordinate system you use. The UTM > system has many advantages over the lat/long system, though some > prefer one or the other. The WGS84 datum should be used with lat/long > and, for some reason, NAD27 should be used with UTM. Eh? To the best of my knowledge, the choice of datum and the choice of format are wholly independent. (Am I wrong?) The NAD27 datum is still very valuable since USGS quadrangles use that. I've measured points off a map, entered them, gone there, and been within GPS error (like 15-30'), which is amazing. The WGS84 datum is newer, and possibly more of a current default. However, in either datum you can switch representations between UTM, dd.ddddd, dd mm.mmmm, dd mm ss.ss, etc, without it changing the meaning of the location. I use UTM when working with quadrangle kilometer squares (very handy, along with NAD27, as you said), but dd.ddddd or one of the other degrees formats for simplicity, and often nowadays for interchange, since most people don't seem to understand UTM any better than datums. For a good time, try choosing any format you like, then enter and save a waypoint (twice) in each of two different datums, then ask the unit how far apart they are. Cheers, Alan Silverstein From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Dec 21 18:30:08 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Dec 21 18:28:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <20071222021659.AFCE01CC35@io.frii.com> References: <20071222021659.AFCE01CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <476C76B0.2090503@verizon.net> Alan Silverstein wrote: >>...the datum depends on which coordinate system you use. The UTM >>system has many advantages over the lat/long system, though some >>prefer one or the other. The WGS84 datum should be used with lat/long >>and, for some reason, NAD27 should be used with UTM. > > > Eh? To the best of my knowledge, the choice of datum and the choice of > format are wholly independent. (Am I wrong?) Well yes they are independent, but for some reason--I don't know why--when I change TopoUSA to UTM coordinates, it gives me a warning saying something about the datum for UTM/UPS is strongly preferred as NAD27. I've also been told this by some older and more experienced geologists. If anyone *does* know why, let us know! Perhaps it is because, as you said, many of the older USGS maps are based on NAD27, and that is also the basis for TopoUSA? No idea here. best, Don From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 18:56:01 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 18:59:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> References: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> <200712220051.lBM0paMs020037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200712220259.lBM2x487004591@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Because the UTM coordinate system is based on lat/lon NAD27. See how confusing it gets? That's why lat/lon WGS84 is the default and standard for export/import on every GPS unit. And the editors of Rock & Gem mag are only dimly aware of the "dang innernet", so I would be shocked if they knew what a datum was lol. And why would you need UTM if you have +/- a couple foot accuracy using WGS84 with a good GPS unit? Inquiring minds want to know...I can't recall the last time I saw UTM coords in a geology or paleontology pub, BTW. I can recall seeing lat/lon coords without a datum in at least half of them lol. P.S. I love your tagline. I might even steal it :P At 05:41 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Tim Fisher wrote: > >> The easy way to avoid the >>issue is to leave your friggin GPS at the default setting of WGS84, >>which is the universal standard for transferring waypoints between >>units (thank the gods that there is a standard or the problem would >>be a lot worse). The problem comes when people futz (a PA Dutch >>word for the obvious) with their settings and then upload perfectly >>good WGS84 waypoints that the GPS, doing exactly what the user told >>it to do, obligingly treats as NAD83 or whatever silly datum they >>set it to and translates them to WGS84! > > >Geez Tim... perhaps a more considered discussion, in the holiday >spirit, would be to point out that the datum depends on which >coordinate system you use. The UTM system has many advantages over >the lat/long system, though some prefer one or the other. The WGS84 >datum should be used with lat/long and, for some reason, NAD27 >should be used with UTM. > >Just like any other tool, people need to learn how to use them! I >will adapt one of my favorite phrases to apply here: if you don't >know how to navigate, and buy a GPS, you still don't know how to >navigate, but now it's recorded electronically. > >I am quite surprised that nobody caught that, or that they just >didn't reject the article altogether. > >"May all your coordinates be exact, and may the satellites reach us, >every one!" > >All the best, >Don Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 19:06:07 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 19:09:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <20071222021659.AFCE01CC35@io.frii.com> References: <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> <20071222021659.AFCE01CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <200712220309.lBM39BBx011547@bubbleator.drizzle.com> At 06:16 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: > > ...the datum depends on which coordinate system you use. The UTM > > system has many advantages over the lat/long system, though some > > prefer one or the other. The WGS84 datum should be used with lat/long > > and, for some reason, NAD27 should be used with UTM. > >Eh? To the best of my knowledge, the choice of datum and the choice of >format are wholly independent. (Am I wrong?) No, the UTM (universal transverse Mercator) system is based on NAD27; if you were to use another datum you would have to convert, and that introduces inaccuracies (granted, very small inaccuracies). It's complicated enough that I don't fully understand it. >The NAD27 datum is still very valuable since USGS quadrangles use that. >I've measured points off a map, entered them, gone there, and been >within GPS error (like 15-30'), which is amazing. Yes it is still useful, but nowadays the impulse for most people is to enter these NAD27 coords into their GPS as native coords, and unless it is set to NAD27, the waypoints will be off. If waypoints are converted to WGS84 first there is no such issue. >The WGS84 datum is newer, and possibly more of a current default. It is a worldwide standard (WGS = world geodetic system), whereas the NAD27 & NAD83 standards only work and are used only in North America. A coordinate in Europe cannot be in NAD27 since the NAD27 grid doesn't exist there. That's the main impetus behind using WGS as a standard. Furthermore, all GIS programs of which I am aware use WGS84 as a default, defacto, hardwired standard, and most make it a royal PITA to convert to another datum. >However, in either datum you can switch representations between UTM, >dd.ddddd, dd mm.mmmm, dd mm ss.ss, etc, without it changing the meaning >of the location. I use UTM when working with quadrangle kilometer >squares (very handy, along with NAD27, as you said), but dd.ddddd or one >of the other degrees formats for simplicity, and often nowadays for >interchange, since most people don't seem to understand UTM any better >than datums. Agreed! and if you use decimal degrees (dd.dd...) and don't specify a datum, you are automatically using lat/lon WGS84, which makes it pretty simple for any GIS unit, mapping program, or GIA program to understand. >For a good time, try choosing any format you like, then enter and save a >waypoint (twice) in each of two different datums, then ask the unit how >far apart they are. About 187 feet in the Pacific NW for NAD27 vs. WGS84 :P >Cheers, >Alan Silverstein >-- Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Dec 21 19:12:01 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Dec 21 19:15:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <476C76B0.2090503@verizon.net> References: <20071222021659.AFCE01CC35@io.frii.com> <476C76B0.2090503@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200712220315.lBM3F5rC015312@bubbleator.drizzle.com> The 0,0 points for the UTM zones are known points recorded in NAD27 on USGS 7.5' topos. Converting to another datum requires converting the 0,0 point for the zone to the new datum and recalculating the meters northing and easting. Alan is right, if you are using maps with 1 sq. km squares based on UTM to navigate, then UTM makes sense, elsewise it is far easier to use decimal degrees. At 06:30 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: >Alan Silverstein wrote: > >>>...the datum depends on which coordinate system you use. The UTM >>>system has many advantages over the lat/long system, though some >>>prefer one or the other. The WGS84 datum should be used with lat/long >>>and, for some reason, NAD27 should be used with UTM. >> >>Eh? To the best of my knowledge, the choice of datum and the choice of >>format are wholly independent. (Am I wrong?) > > >Well yes they are independent, but for some reason--I don't know >why--when I change TopoUSA to UTM coordinates, it gives me a warning >saying something about the datum for UTM/UPS is strongly preferred >as NAD27. I've also been told this by some older and more >experienced geologists. If anyone *does* know why, let us know! > >Perhaps it is because, as you said, many of the older USGS maps are >based on NAD27, and that is also the basis for TopoUSA? No idea here. > >best, >Don Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Dec 21 19:23:14 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Dec 21 19:21:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <200712220259.lBM2x487004591@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> <200712220051.lBM0paMs020037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> <200712220259.lBM2x487004591@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <476C8322.4030502@verizon.net> Tim Fisher wrote: > And why would you need UTM if you have > +/- a couple foot accuracy using WGS84 with a good GPS unit? Inquiring > minds want to know...I can't recall the last time I saw UTM coords in a > geology or paleontology pub, BTW. Hi, That's what Lanny says too... however it is easier to make measurements, when necessary, because a meter is a meter is a meter... as longitude lines converge toward the poles, the absolute distance between coordinates changes. I find the deg/min/sec notation easy to misread, though I admit some folks say that about UTM as well. But UTM coords are a simple string of numbers. They are easy to store in a spreadsheet and manipulate in numeric order. In fact, when I visited the Idaho Geological Survey office to show the geologist all the places I'd been, he told me to bring the UTM coordinates as columns in a spreadsheet. Within seconds he had it all imported into his program. He said that would have been more difficult with lat/long. I put GPS systems to a real test in the last few years, finding obscure localities with dubious maps. With UTM, it is much easier (in my experience) to realize how far you are from where you are trying to be in real meters, without needing to convert. Using a scale rule, you can do some measurements on a map if you need to. Like many things, it is a matter of taste and usage. I grew up using lat/long in the Boy Scouts and Civil Air Patrol, just like everyone else. But once I went UTM, I never found a reason to go back. BTW, the UTM coords will be in my thesis, along with the datum of course. But again (to the lurking readers) the most important point is to learn to use your GPS properly, be consistent with your datum, and record as much info as you can! You never know when it will be useful. best, Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Dec 21 20:13:12 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Dec 21 20:03:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Collecting localitites References: <994777.85392.qm@web56305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <476C8C70.3FE5@Tomaszewski.net> J. R. Hodel wrote: > Up in Maine some of the very old toumaline quarries, which were > originally operated for white feldspar for the china and porcelain > industries, are nearly scoured away. But then a new lease-holder will > come in with a different plan, and often strike it rich in pockets of > aquamarine and tourmaline, like Coromoto Mining did just a couple of > years ago. I went camping and rock collecting this summer at a family reunion that one of my sisters hosted in the White Mountains of NH, on the Maine border. Near the end of our trip I stopped at the local rock shop and had the pleasure of meeting Bob and Teresa Prouty, acquiring some specimens (including a new mineral for my systematic collection), and discovered I was camping near the Chatham North Star mine (aka, the Millard Chandler mine) that I could collect at. I took away two very full buckets from surface collecting (and breaking up one boulder). One beryl. Nice pegmatite. Some of the whitest microcline I have ever seen. Great books of Biotite. Quartz, fluorapatite, and a basalt intrusion. To find the Chandler mine, take 113 from Fryeburg to the Basin Campground, turn around, and go about 3/10 of a mile back to the second road. Same side of the road as the Campground. Curvey little two track that takes its first bend to the left just after you get on it. Park at the second bend (to the right) as there is a large tree down across the track after the second bend. BTW, beryl is still found in the gravel dumps on your right that you just passed. Hike past the tree (left turn just after) about 2/10 mile and follow the path up the hill to the right to the mine above the dumps. You need to take the sharp right switchback up on the hillside (I think it was the second one, the narrow path littered with mica - the wider first path goes to the top of the litter on the hillside). Expect swarms of very hungry insects from the swampy stream that runs along the path past the down tree. They are everywhere. Have fun collecting. The bugs will win. Kreigh From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 20:13:24 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Dec 21 20:13:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Merry Christmas! was RE: December B-days was RE:Collecting localitites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LOL! More rocks in my head for sure! 12/17/1947. I have a 1st cousin born Christmas Day 12/25/1948. I wish you all lots of new special rocks this month. Glenn > From: dawnmfredricks@msn.com > Happy Birthday to all of you who also have December Birthdays, I know I'm a little disappointed having mine in December as there is so much stuff going on... > And to keep it "OT" I hope you all get a lot of great rocks for your Special day! > Dawn Fredricks > Portland Oregon _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Dec 21 20:44:39 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Dec 21 20:44:42 2007 Subject: FW: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> References: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: Here is a link explaining what Alan is saying about datums: http://www.maptools.com/UsingUTM/mapdatum.html Glenn > From: ajs@frii.com> > Lots of good stuff already said, to which I will add...> > - It's also amazing how many people use a GPS and don't know about> "datums". One guy wrote in Rock & Gem a while ago about all his> coords (received from someone else) being off hundreds of feet, and he> didn't know why. Later when I happened to chat with an R&G editor,> she didn't know about datums either!> > Cheers,> Alan Silverstein The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. Get it now! _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From llbullbull at hotmail.com Sat Dec 22 05:44:02 2007 From: llbullbull at hotmail.com (Lawrence Bull) Date: Sat Dec 22 05:44:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Fourth Issue of Australian & New Zealand Mineral Collector Magazine Out Now... In-Reply-To: <20071221085002.16514.qmail@webmachine101.com> References: <20071221085002.16514.qmail@webmachine101.com> Message-ID: Hello Group: Has anyone read the first three issues of the magazine? And if so what did you think? And finally what is the postage the slow way? Merry Christmas Larry Bull > From: magnet@crocoite.com> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:50:02 -1000> Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Fourth Issue of Australian & New Zealand Mineral Collector Magazine Out Now...> > Hi all> > The fourth issue of the Australian and New Zealand Mineral Collector magazine is now out. This issue is the first one to focus on one area, the Queenstown district in western Tasmania, and in particular, the famous Mt. Lyell mine.> > It is full colour, 28 pages, and only $10US available from Lulu - http://www.lulu.com/smartarts> > If you are going to order a copy directly, can I suggest that you use the 'Standard' option for shipping. It is by far most economical, and usually arrives within a couple of weeks. > > Regards> Steve> > Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/> -- > _______________________________________________> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> Subscription Services:> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From ajs at frii.com Sat Dec 22 09:14:38 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Sat Dec 22 09:14:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on sharing collecting sites In-Reply-To: <20071222005136.99850E060E@ma104.mailarmory.com> Message-ID: <20071222171438.08EF21CC35@io.frii.com> >>- Large site worked out... > Ah but did you dig? ... No, can't say as I dug on Opal Hill... Partly because it's hard to know where to dig in most places (there wasn't obvious evidence), and partly because digging is usually very slow and unrewarding. Not that I haven't dug up some cool petrified wood over the years, but it's an occasional bit of variety, not something I want to do most of the time. (Probably 'cause I'm looking for tumbling material more than onesy-twosy larger, cool specimens.) > I think people who are newer to the hobby just aren't going to go > scouting on their own, unless they already have experience, i.e boy > scouts, hunting, panning, etc. I run into people who are not > confident enough in their abilities all the time, and want their hand > held all the way to the site, so to speak... Yeah, and I observe that a lot of people are just followers more than independent adventurers. > I use my GPS even when I don't need it. Oh, surely, me too. But half the time I don't bother saving a waypoint, and most of the rest of the time I don't bother copying it down into a trip report or something. Not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's more work. > There have been numerous instances when I just clicked because I > thought the site might have potential... I see. Interesting method. Alan From lanny at lrream.com Sat Dec 22 10:55:46 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sat Dec 22 10:55:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> Just curious Don. You mean to say that the outcrop is gone? There are no kyanites and no garnets remaining? I'm amazed, I thought it was just that the loose surface material was gone. Maybe I have been wrong and telling people about localities is a geologic sin! I find it difficult to believe that the outcrop with the kyanite is gone. The loose material picked up of the surface of the outcrop and where they occurred in the bare areas between clumps of grass scattered over the ridge yes, but I can't imagine the outcrop being gone. As to the garnets, they are scattered over the ridge for several hundred yards, which area has the zoned crystals and relation with kyanite, I don't know, haven't looked at it. I think your interested geologists need to get off their butts, out of the lab, and go there and look. My curiosity is up, we need to meet up there next summer! Regards, Lanny On Dec 21, 2007, at 9:39 AM, DonH wrote: .... > > > Some may recall my stories from the summer, when I was out in the > middle of nowhere and encountered an elderly couple, with one of Lanny > Ream's books in hand, looking for large blue kyanites. Well, we found > the one outcrop where these were located, but all that were left were > tiny kyanites. A discussion followed here where Lanny mentioned that > the site (which is pretty obscure) had been collected out after the > book was published. So it goes. The sad part of the story is that I > have since shown my collected materials to some of the professors who > are working on the dating and structure of the area. Apparently I've > found some things that they haven't seen before, like garnets with > three growth layers. This is not related to my thesis but I feel > obligated to pass on the info to others who are working on the area. > It seems they appreciate and respect my observations and in fact that > ridge may be the key to solving some regional puzzles, since it is > poorly known and poorly studied and few people are aware of blue > kyanite associated with garnet that far west of where it is already > known to be. However, it would have been nice to have that outcrop > intact, but it is too late now. I am *not* saying it should not have > been published in the book; quite the contrary, who could have known > it would be important? In fact, without the book, and without meeting > two rockhounds who had it, *I* wouldn't have known it was there > either, and it would not have been > part of the new study. Funny how things fall together. > ..... > Best, > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From lanny at lrream.com Sat Dec 22 11:08:49 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sat Dec 22 11:08:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <200712212208.lBLM8snb011373@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712212208.lBLM8snb011373@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <9c441ac73f0b5f690505cc9d2b87b358@lrream.com> Tim, I accept the challenge and would very happy to go first, as soon as someone tells me where they come from. The only information I have is in my book, the information came from specimens that Norm Radford (shop and museum in Wallace, Idaho) has, and the person who sold him the rutilated quartzes only states that they come from "near Golden." This is probably the same person who sold him the nice orange grossular crystals from "near Harpster." Golden is east of Grangeville up the Clearwater River towards Elk City, and Harpster is NE of Grangeville on the Clearwater River. Awfully big country to go looking for minerals, but I have twice, unsuccessfully. Regards, Lanny On Dec 21, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > OK, so why don't you go first? Where in Idaho is that very nice > rutilated quartz coming from? :D > > Joking! > > At 10:18 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: > > >> Share you information, right down to the GPS coordinates if you >> please. Doing that is a lot more human than keeping a location a >> secret to your death. >> >> Regards, >> >> Lanny > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From lanny at lrream.com Sat Dec 22 11:51:11 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sat Dec 22 11:51:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on GPS coordinates In-Reply-To: <476C8322.4030502@verizon.net> References: <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071221234902.5DFE41CC35@io.frii.com> <200712220051.lBM0paMs020037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476C6B39.6080502@verizon.net> <200712220259.lBM2x487004591@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476C8322.4030502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <822d4c47098baac7bf98840fc722f19f@lrream.com> Lanny says more than that. I grew up being taught in scouts, school and life in general that the earth had a coordinate system of degrees, broken down into minutes and seconds. I like them, they are like thoughts of home, they are friednly, they are secure. They work, they fit geometry and a common system humans have applied to "spheres" for centuries. I know what they mean, and contrary to what a friend (who shall remain nameless) wrote on this list about aliens looking at humans, it is the logical way to continue to describe coordinates on earth and would be recognized by any alien friends or invaders. I can see Don's appreciation of UTM for it's ease in measuring, but he is the only person who has ever said that to me (which probably only means I haven't talked about such things with others who need to make measurements between coordinates in such a way that this is applicable). I know what N 44.86523 means. I know what N 44? 51' 54.8" means, and I know how to convert between them. I personally like the latter, because it is the way I've "always" seen it for xx years before GPS was invented. I also use NADS27 because that is what the USGS Topographic maps were created in. Although this latter view on life might change because WGS84 is what GPS systems come set at and 99.6% of the users don't even know what a datum is, and thus WGS84 is becoming a de facto standard. I don't like this horrendous string of numbers, such as 11T60259mE, it don't look friendly, and I don't for the life of me see any reason why I should abandon a system of a series of numbers based on a circle which has been in use since mankind figured out earth wasn't the center of the universe, a series of numbers of which I can easily visualize where they place me on the globe. UTM coordinates are in no way easier to use as a coordinate system than degrees and certainly are in no way easier to use, to record or anything of that kind. And toss in the fact that in all the materials I've read in the past several years, hardly any one used UTM coordinates, all the rest used the old standby, there is no reason to change to UTM. Just my humble opinion, everyone is free to use any system they choose that the rest of us can understand. Regards, Lanny On Dec 21, 2007, at 7:23 PM, DonH wrote: > Tim Fisher wrote: > >> And why would you need UTM if you have >> +/- a couple foot accuracy using WGS84 with a good GPS unit? >> Inquiring minds want to know...I can't recall the last time I saw UTM >> coords in a geology or paleontology pub, BTW. > > > Hi, > > That's what Lanny says too... however it is easier to make > measurements, when necessary, because a meter is a meter is a meter... > as longitude lines converge toward the poles, the absolute distance > between coordinates changes. I find the deg/min/sec notation easy to > misread, though I admit some folks say that about UTM as well. But > UTM coords are a simple string of numbers. They are easy to store in > a spreadsheet and manipulate in numeric order. In fact, when I > visited the Idaho Geological Survey office to show the geologist all > the places I'd been, he told me to bring the UTM coordinates as > columns in a spreadsheet. Within seconds he had it all imported into > his program. He said that would have been more difficult with > lat/long. > > I put GPS systems to a real test in the last few years, finding > obscure localities with dubious maps. With UTM, it is much easier (in > my experience) to realize how far you are from where you are trying to > be in real meters, without needing to convert. Using a scale rule, > you can do some measurements on a map if you need to. > > Like many things, it is a matter of taste and usage. I grew up using > lat/long in the Boy Scouts and Civil Air Patrol, just like everyone > else. But once I went UTM, I never found a reason to go back. > > BTW, the UTM coords will be in my thesis, along with the datum of > course. > > But again (to the lurking readers) the most important point is to > learn to use your GPS properly, be consistent with your datum, and > record as much info as you can! You never know when it will be > useful. > > > best, > Don > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From donhalterman at verizon.net Sat Dec 22 11:53:29 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Sat Dec 22 11:51:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> Message-ID: <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> Lanny wrote: > Just curious Don. You mean to say that the outcrop is gone? There are no > kyanites and no garnets remaining? Hi, The large, collectible kyanites are gone from that particular outcrop (garnets weren't part of the discussion in this case, and I've never found ). They appear to have been restricted to particular layers in this rock (I hesitate to call it a schist!) There are still fine, well-formed little kyanites in the top remaining layer. This is about where I found that couple wandering around with a copy of your book in hand, and called you, but there was no answer (I still can't believe I had a cell signal out there). The outcrop was pretty hammered before I got there, and I did some hammering myself, until I realized it was too unique to take apart further until I had someone look at it. It is definitely layered, but also exhibits a gentle undulatory folding, and is shot through in places with massive, white, porcealainous feldspar and chunks of anhedral quartz. The mica looks like biotite but in thinner sections it has a green tint. The last person I had out there was mumbling something about this area being the missing link between two formations, but I didn't quite get what she was thinking. There is garnet amphibolite up there as well as the schistose material, plus another outcrop I found where white laths (of kyanite?) surround small, subhedral, reddish-orange garnets. Very odd. But yes, the garnets are up there and still able to be collected. Many of them are worn out of the matrix and can be found in the road. My earlier comment referred to the fact that the outcrop has been changed, to the point where a full interpretation is probably not possible any longer. But then again, that is just fate. The bottom line is that this area has been studied since the 1950s, and this particular ridge should have been more closely studied already. At least I have a team of worthwhile professors ready to go take a look--and in a sense we do owe it to you! I don't know how long I'll be around after I graduate, but I'd like to go take a look up there together, if you still have that Mammoth Car and the snow cooperates. Best, Don From ajs at frii.com Sat Dec 22 14:07:24 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Sat Dec 22 14:07:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] more thoughts on GPS coordinates In-Reply-To: <822d4c47098baac7bf98840fc722f19f@lrream.com> Message-ID: <20071222220724.8DE191CC41@io.frii.com> > Lanny says more than that. He sure does. :-) That's quite an essay on the subject. Like you, I'm an "old dog", and UTM took some getting used to. Plus as I've written, it's not widely understood, so it's not ideal for publishing locations. But now that I understand the kilometer squares and edge numbers on newer USGS quad maps, UTM is often very useful to me. "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." Cheers, Alan Silverstein From nospam at orerockon.com Sat Dec 22 15:37:57 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sat Dec 22 15:40:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <9c441ac73f0b5f690505cc9d2b87b358@lrream.com> References: <200712212208.lBLM8snb011373@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <9c441ac73f0b5f690505cc9d2b87b358@lrream.com> Message-ID: <200712222340.lBMNeiQ8016055@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I was teasing you! :P I found them already....NOT! At 11:08 AM 12/22/2007, you wrote: >Tim, I accept the challenge and would very happy to go first, as >soon as someone tells me where they come from. The only information >I have is in my book, the information came from specimens that Norm >Radford (shop and museum in Wallace, Idaho) has, and the person who >sold him the rutilated quartzes only states that they come from >"near Golden." This is probably the same person who sold him the >nice orange grossular crystals from "near Harpster." Golden is east >of Grangeville up the Clearwater River towards Elk City, and >Harpster is NE of Grangeville on the Clearwater River. Awfully big >country to go looking for minerals, but I have twice, unsuccessfully. > >Regards, > >Lanny > > >On Dec 21, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > >>OK, so why don't you go first? Where in Idaho is that very nice >>rutilated quartz coming from? :D >> >>Joking! Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From magnet at crocoite.com Sat Dec 22 21:31:00 2007 From: magnet at crocoite.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?magnet?=) Date: Sat Dec 22 21:31:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Fourth Issue of Australian & New Zealand Mineral Collector Magazine Out Now... Message-ID: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> Hi Larry Postage the slow way is more for those not in the US which is where the printing occurs. Regards Steve Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/ Larry wrote--> And finally what is the postage the slow way? From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sat Dec 22 22:46:26 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Dec 22 22:46:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD Fourth Issue In-Reply-To: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> Message-ID: <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) When we lived in New Zealand we had a neighbor who told us that the postal rate to NZ (which they pronounce "En Zed") included a storage fee, which accounts for the slow delivery, of course, she said with a wink. In NZ they have different rates for domestic post depending on distance/location. So for example: it costs more to send a letter or package from Wellington to Christchurch than it does from Wellington to Auckland. Don't know if it's the same in Australia. Happy Christmas to you in Tazzie, Steve, where you're getting the warm weather now, Down Under. Aloha, Kitty At 07:31 PM 12/22/2007, you wrote: >Hi Larry > >Postage the slow way is more for those not in the US which is where >the printing occurs. > >Regards >Steve > >Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/ > >Larry wrote--> >And finally what is the postage the slow way? >-- From stu at arcrystalmine.com Sun Dec 23 09:22:13 2007 From: stu at arcrystalmine.com (Stu Schmitt) Date: Sun Dec 23 09:24:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Jeffrey Solution Quartz & Wavellite References: <994777.85392.qm@web56305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004801c84588$5bbcd570$6500a8c0@STU2> I recently acquired what might be the last of the Jeffrey Quarry Solution Quartz from Charles Steuart (CTS Rock Shop in Hot Springs, AR). Charles has closed his shop and will be selling out. I have about 500 pounds of the Jeffrey material including needle points, haystacks and clusters/points peppered with cookeite. I have sent some of this quartz with Ray McGrew and Judy Morton (Judy's Crystals) to be sold at Quartzsite and Tucson. Judy will be set up in Quartzsite at the Desert Gardens (A-B 15-16) Dec 27 - Jan 28 and in Tucson at The Electric Park Jan 31-Feb17. They will also have around 500 pounds of our Mauldin Mtn wavellite. We recently acquirred the old BLM 80 acre Avant wavellite and variscite lease from Henry deLinde. Henry dug the area for about one week in the early 1970s and it hasn't been touched since. We plan to start digging at Avant in late Feb or early March when Ray gets back from Tucson. The Avant lease is known for its large wavellite balls (up to 2" diameter) and drusy green variscite crystals. We hope to have the material available in March or April along with more Mauldin Mtn wavellite. Here is a link to a web page with photos of Avant when I first visited the area with Mr. deLinde on Dec 6, 2006: http://www.arcrystalmine.com/avantweb/avant.html Here is a link to a web page of our Plan of Operation we submitted to BLM for approval: http://www.arcrystalmine.com/POA/POA.html I think this was the first POA submitted to BLM via a webpage and approved by BLM and the Forest Service. I found the recent discussion about sharing collecting localities interesting and it helped me decide what to do with the Avant lease. I've debated about putting up "Keep Out - Private Lease" signs or welcoming rockhouds to the area. The signs would probably anoy the locals who ride their 4 wheelers along the top of the ridge and it would be impossible to restrict access to the area. There should be a lot of wavellite and variscite in the tailings for rockhounds to pick up and they might want to see and buy some of our better specimins. As of now, rockhouds will be welcome. If any of you would like more information, please contact me off list. With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Clear Creek Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sun Dec 23 09:58:01 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Dec 23 09:58:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Jeffrey Solution Quartz & Wavellite References: <994777.85392.qm@web56305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <004801c84588$5bbcd570$6500a8c0@STU2> Message-ID: <000401c8458d$5c5ca5a0$0300000a@LarryRush> It's gratifying that Stu is going to mine this area! Many collectors remember the super Wavellite from the Avant and Mauldin area from years ago. I recall the swap sessions at the State Park in North Little Rock in years past, when pick-up loads of the world's best Wavellite were displayed for sale and swap. Large cabinet pieces with Wavellite balls the size of quarters were common! (And at prices that seem cheap in today's dollars!) (And for those who are unfamiliar with the Jeffrey quartz, this too, could be a collector's last chance to have some of these beautiful fine, clear, doubly terminated and clustered solution quartz pieces from a permanently closed location) Kudos to Stu and let's all hope that he has the same kind of luck in his efforts on Avant mountain! The collecting community will indeed appreciate his contributions! Larry Rush ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stu Schmitt" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 12:22 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Jeffrey Solution Quartz & Wavellite >I recently acquired what might be the last of the Jeffrey Quarry Solution >Quartz from Charles Steuart (CTS Rock Shop in Hot Springs, AR). Charles >has closed his shop and will be selling out. I have about 500 pounds of >the Jeffrey material including needle points, haystacks and clusters/points >peppered with cookeite. I have sent some of this quartz with Ray McGrew >and Judy Morton (Judy's Crystals) to be sold at Quartzsite and Tucson. >Judy will be set up in Quartzsite at the Desert Gardens (A-B 15-16) Dec >27 - Jan 28 and in Tucson at The Electric Park Jan 31-Feb17. They will >also have around 500 pounds of our Mauldin Mtn wavellite. > > We recently acquirred the old BLM 80 acre Avant wavellite and variscite > lease from Henry deLinde. Henry dug the area for about one week in the > early 1970s and it hasn't been touched since. We plan to start digging at > Avant in late Feb or early March when Ray gets back from Tucson. The > Avant lease is known for its large wavellite balls (up to 2" diameter) and > drusy green variscite crystals. We hope to have the material available in > March or April along with more Mauldin Mtn wavellite. > > Here is a link to a web page with photos of Avant when I first visited the > area with Mr. deLinde on Dec 6, 2006: > http://www.arcrystalmine.com/avantweb/avant.html > > Here is a link to a web page of our Plan of Operation we submitted to BLM > for approval: > http://www.arcrystalmine.com/POA/POA.html I think this was the first POA > submitted to BLM via a webpage and approved by BLM and the Forest Service. > > I found the recent discussion about sharing collecting localities > interesting and it helped me decide what to do with the Avant lease. I've > debated about putting up "Keep Out - Private Lease" signs or welcoming > rockhouds to the area. The signs would probably anoy the locals who ride > their 4 wheelers along the top of the ridge and it would be impossible to > restrict access to the area. There should be a lot of wavellite and > variscite in the tailings for rockhounds to pick up and they might want to > see and buy some of our better specimins. As of now, rockhouds will be > welcome. > > If any of you would like more information, please contact me off list. > > With appreciation & gratitude, > Stuart Schmitt > Clear Creek Crystal Mine > www.arcrystalmine.com > 60 Mary's Eagle Trail > Mount Ida, AR 71957 > (870) 867-2443 > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lanny at lrream.com Sun Dec 23 10:00:46 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Dec 23 10:04:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <200712222340.lBMNeiQ8016055@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200712212208.lBLM8snb011373@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <9c441ac73f0b5f690505cc9d2b87b358@lrream.com> <200712222340.lBMNeiQ8016055@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Tim, I figured you were teasing, or at least "mostly" teasing. There is rutilated quartz at the epidote location north of the road to Paddy Flats, NE of Donnelly (for those who are lost, we're talking western Idaho). Haven't seen much, only found fragments myself, so don't know how good it is. These crystals from Golden are quite nice and make me drool. Too many places to explore and way too little time! Regards, Lanny On Dec 22, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > I was teasing you! > :P > > I found them already....NOT! > > At 11:08 AM 12/22/2007, you wrote: >> Tim, I accept the challenge and would very happy to go first, as soon >> as someone tells me where they come from. The only information I have >> is in my book, the information came from specimens that Norm Radford >> (shop and museum in Wallace, Idaho) has, and the person who sold him >> the rutilated quartzes only states that they come from "near Golden." >> This is probably the same person who sold him the nice orange >> grossular crystals from "near Harpster." Golden is east of >> Grangeville up the Clearwater River towards Elk City, and Harpster is >> NE of Grangeville on the Clearwater River. Awfully big country to go >> looking for minerals, but I have twice, unsuccessfully. >> >> Regards, >> >> Lanny >> >> >> On Dec 21, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: >> >>> OK, so why don't you go first? Where in Idaho is that very nice >>> rutilated quartz coming from? :D >>> >>> Joking! > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site > Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Dec 23 10:09:54 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Dec 23 10:12:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: References: <200712212208.lBLM8snb011373@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <9c441ac73f0b5f690505cc9d2b87b358@lrream.com> <200712222340.lBMNeiQ8016055@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <200712231812.lBNICnil005842@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Ditto, we found fragments of "stuff" at every site around McCall that was in Beckwith (I think, this is 20 years ago!), but almost nothing to take home. Someone, someday, is going to mine that pegmatite and hit the jackpot :) Or not! At 10:00 AM 12/23/2007, you wrote: >Tim, > >I figured you were teasing, or at least "mostly" teasing. There is >rutilated quartz at the epidote location north of the road to Paddy >Flats, NE of Donnelly (for those who are lost, we're talking western >Idaho). Haven't seen much, only found fragments myself, so don't >know how good it is. These crystals from Golden are quite nice and >make me drool. Too many places to explore and way too little time! > >Regards, > >Lanny > >On Dec 22, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > >>I was teasing you! >>:P >> >>I found them already....NOT! >> >>At 11:08 AM 12/22/2007, you wrote: >>>Tim, I accept the challenge and would very happy to go first, as >>>soon as someone tells me where they come from. The only >>>information I have is in my book, the information came from >>>specimens that Norm Radford (shop and museum in Wallace, Idaho) >>>has, and the person who sold him the rutilated quartzes only >>>states that they come from "near Golden." This is probably the >>>same person who sold him the nice orange grossular crystals from >>>"near Harpster." Golden is east of Grangeville up the Clearwater >>>River towards Elk City, and Harpster is NE of Grangeville on the >>>Clearwater River. Awfully big country to go looking for minerals, >>>but I have twice, unsuccessfully. >>> >>>Regards, >>> >>>Lanny >>> >>> >>>On Dec 21, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: >>> >>>>OK, so why don't you go first? Where in Idaho is that very nice >>>>rutilated quartz coming from? :D >>>> >>>>Joking! Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From lanny at lrream.com Sun Dec 23 10:24:52 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Dec 23 10:24:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> Message-ID: Don, We need to get an expedition together, anyone interested in looking at Idaho metamorphics is welcome. See you there next summer (when the snow is much less of a problem!). On Dec 22, 2007, at 11:53 AM, DonH wrote: > Lanny wrote: >> Just curious Don. You mean to say that the outcrop is gone? There are >> no kyanites and no garnets remaining? > > Hi, > > The large, collectible kyanites are gone from that particular outcrop > (garnets weren't part of the discussion in this case, and I've never > found ). They appear to have been restricted to particular layers in > this rock (I hesitate to call it a schist!) There are still fine, > well-formed little kyanites in the top remaining layer. This is about > where I found that couple wandering around with a copy of your book in > hand, and called you, but there was no answer (I still can't believe I > had a cell signal out there). The outcrop was pretty hammered before > I got there, and I did some hammering myself, until I realized it was > too unique to take apart further until I had someone look at it. It > is definitely layered, but also exhibits a gentle undulatory folding, > and is shot through in places with massive, white, porcealainous > feldspar and chunks of anhedral quartz. The mica looks like biotite > but in thinner sections it has a green tint. The last person I had > out there was mumbling something about this area being the missing > link between two formations, but I didn't quite get what she was > thinking. I am totally confused on what outcrops you are referring too; one reason why I'm looking forward to visiting it with you. When I looked a few years ago, the outcrop with the kyanite I direct people too had not been significantly touched by hammer and chisel. The garnet outcrop I refer people to has been heavily worked by rockhounds since at least the early 1960s, before I ever saw it. > > There is garnet amphibolite up there as well as the schistose > material, plus another outcrop I found where white laths (of kyanite?) > surround small, subhedral, reddish-orange garnets. Very odd. > > But yes, the garnets are up there and still able to be collected. > Many of them are worn out of the matrix and can be found in the road. > > My earlier comment referred to the fact that the outcrop has been > changed, to the point where a full interpretation is probably not > possible any longer. But then again, that is just fate. But then the outcrop had undoubtedly been changing for at least 10,000 years... > > The bottom line is that this area has been studied since the 1950s, > and this particular ridge should have been more closely studied > already. At least I have a team of worthwhile professors ready to go > take a look--and in a sense we do owe it to you! I don't know how > long I'll be around after I graduate, but I'd like to go take a look > up there together, if you still have that Mammoth Car and the snow > cooperates. > > Best, > Don > I need to get back up in that area again, so I'm looking forward to making it up there with you. It's a "fun" region to explore; I recently learned that during road construction several decades ago, a friend found a 3 inch sharp, lustrous almandine crystal in an ara to the east by Larkins Peak. It was in roadfill, the source wasn't located (and now he can't find his 40 year old notes that would provide the road location). Still a lot to see in a huge, forested mountainous area with garnets, kyanite and staurolite over a zone from Emerald Creek to the Montana Border, an area around 70 miles long and 30 miles wide. We'll never see it all, should have been Anna Hiatenen's field assistant (as if that could have ever happened!). Regards, Lanny From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Sun Dec 23 08:41:16 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Sun Dec 23 10:28:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Postage has risen world-wide over the past four decades at a rate higher than normal inflation in various countries. I can still remember, when about 35 years ago, a SMALL PARCEL weigjhing under one kilogram cost about R3,25 (about US $0,50) by SURFACE MAIL to any country n the world (when posted here in South Africa). Todasy it costs R100,80 (about US$14,00). Many years ago, the postage rates from South Africa to overseas destinations was one of the cheapest in the world (it unfortunately no longer is)., I remember, whilst touring the USA in the early eighties, I posted off a parcel of minerals (which I had collected, swapped, purchased or was given as presents from the USA to South Africa by surface mail. Once it arrived here, I asked the postmaster what that parcel would cost me from South Africa to the USA - it was a tghird of the price of what it cost me to send it from the USA to my home! On a business trip to Germany in 1983, my wife requested me to post a letter to a friend in Germany, once I had landed at Frankfurt Airport. It would have been much cheaper to post in South Africa (by AIR MAIL) than what it cost me in Germany - it was double the price. Now a gripe we have here in South Africa, is that in the USA, there are certain publishers (no names, no pack drill) who REFUSE to accept us subscribing to gem and mineral magazines/journals/newsletters printed in the USA,other than by AIR MAIL!! In some cases, the postage costs exceed the cost of the publication!! Apparently the US postal authorities want to introduce a similar system - nothing leaves the USA by SURFACE MAIL, it must go by AIR MAIL. This is all done in the name of PROGRESS!!. How we long for the good, old days!! Horst ---- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: "magnet" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:46 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue > When we lived in New Zealand we had a neighbor who told us that the postal > rate to NZ (which they pronounce "En Zed") included a storage fee, which > accounts for the slow delivery, of course, she said with a wink. > > In NZ they have different rates for domestic post depending on > distance/location. So for example: it costs more to send a letter or > package from Wellington to Christchurch than it does from Wellington to > Auckland. Don't know if it's the same in Australia. > > Happy Christmas to you in Tazzie, Steve, where you're getting the warm > weather now, Down Under. > > Aloha, Kitty > > At 07:31 PM 12/22/2007, you wrote: >>Hi Larry >> >>Postage the slow way is more for those not in the US which is where the >>printing occurs. >> >>Regards >>Steve >> >>Check out Steve's Spot at http://crocoite.blogspot.com/ >> >>Larry wrote--> >>And finally what is the postage the slow way? >>-- > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: > 269.17.5/1191 - Release Date: 20/12/2007 14:14 > > From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sun Dec 23 10:48:26 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Dec 23 10:48:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) ADFourthIssue References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com><476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Message-ID: <000c01c84594$670ed200$0300000a@LarryRush> Horst: That "system" is already in place. You can no longer send packages almost anywhere overseas from the US via Surface Mail by the USPS. It all must go via Air Mail. It puts a crimp on sending minerals from here, either for swaps or sales! Some people say that we are now suffering from "Capitalism out-of-control"! Larry Rush From: "Horst Windisch" > Apparently the US postal authorities want to introduce a similar system - > nothing leaves the USA by SURFACE MAIL, it must go by AIR MAIL. This is > all done in the name of PROGRESS!!. How we long for the good, old days!! > > Horst From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 10:54:14 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Dec 23 10:54:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue In-Reply-To: <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Message-ID: Well I didn't pay a lot of attention but I saw some news reports about people complaining about the US Postal Service canceling the International Surface Mail rate. The USPS was saying that they were shipping mail to Africa, I think Nigeria was mentioned, and when the shipments of mail arrived they just sat on the dock and no one picked them up. So they dropped the rate and service. BK > Now a gripe we have here in South Africa, is that in the USA, there are > certain publishers (no names, no pack drill) who REFUSE to accept us > subscribing to gem and mineral magazines/journals/newsletters printed in > the > USA,other than by AIR MAIL!! In some cases, the postage costs exceed the > cost of the publication!! > Apparently the US postal authorities want to introduce a similar system - > nothing leaves the USA by SURFACE MAIL, it must go by AIR MAIL. This is > all > done in the name of PROGRESS!!. How we long for the good, old days!! > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rutile1 at carolina.rr.com Sun Dec 23 11:30:42 2007 From: rutile1 at carolina.rr.com (Todd Hamrick) Date: Sun Dec 23 11:30:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Jeffrey Solution Quartz & Wavellite In-Reply-To: <004801c84588$5bbcd570$6500a8c0@STU2> References: <994777.85392.qm@web56305.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <004801c84588$5bbcd570$6500a8c0@STU2> Message-ID: <476EB762.8070408@carolina.rr.com> Stuart, Hey,we have talked before(awhile back).I am still threatening to make the trip from NC to ARK. You just sweetened the pot some.When are you planning to do this and what is the best time of year? Toidd From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Dec 23 14:13:24 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Dec 23 14:16:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue In-Reply-To: References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Message-ID: <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> The real reason, of course, is that it was a money loser for the USPS. About the only option left for anything that weighs over a few pounds is the Flat Rate Priority Mail box, which is $38 anywhere in the world. Small parcels are still almost reasonable, at least to Canada, where I just paid $9.00 or so to send a parcel of 3 fossils. At 10:54 AM 12/23/2007, you wrote: >Well I didn't pay a lot of attention but I saw some news reports about >people complaining about the US Postal Service canceling the International >Surface Mail rate. The USPS was saying that they were shipping mail to >Africa, I think Nigeria was mentioned, and when the shipments of mail >arrived they just sat on the dock and no one picked them up. So they dropped >the rate and service. > >BK Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From codeburner at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 15:06:52 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Sun Dec 23 15:06:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue In-Reply-To: <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Well personally I would prefer that the USPS made a profit on everything and got off the taxpayer's dole. Even better they should throw mail delivery open to private competition. BK On Dec 23, 2007 5:13 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > The real reason, of course, is that it was a money loser for the > USPS. About the only option left for anything that weighs over a few > pounds is the Flat Rate Priority Mail box, which is $38 anywhere in > the world. Small parcels are still almost reasonable, at least to > Canada, where I just paid $9.00 or so to send a parcel of 3 fossils. > > At 10:54 AM 12/23/2007, you wrote: > >Well I didn't pay a lot of attention but I saw some news reports about > >people complaining about the US Postal Service canceling the > International > >Surface Mail rate. The USPS was saying that they were shipping mail to > >Africa, I think Nigeria was mentioned, and when the shipments of mail > >arrived they just sat on the dock and no one picked them up. So they > dropped > >the rate and service. > > > >BK > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Dec 23 16:32:52 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Dec 23 16:36:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue In-Reply-To: References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <200712240035.lBO0ZjH5022307@bubbleator.drizzle.com> They are 100% self-funded, and have been since 1983, but have been losing money since 9/11/01. Surface mail was subsidized by other classes of mail. I severely doubt that any private corporation could compete effectively with the USPS; nonetheless there is no legal reason why some couldn't, and do in some niche markets (Mailboxes Etc. comes to mind). Get your facts straight before you post... At 03:06 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote: >Well personally I would prefer that the USPS made a profit on everything and >got off the taxpayer's dole. Even better they should throw mail delivery >open to private competition. > >BK > >On Dec 23, 2007 5:13 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > > > The real reason, of course, is that it was a money loser for the > > USPS. About the only option left for anything that weighs over a few > > pounds is the Flat Rate Priority Mail box, which is $38 anywhere in > > the world. Small parcels are still almost reasonable, at least to > > Canada, where I just paid $9.00 or so to send a parcel of 3 fossils. > > > > At 10:54 AM 12/23/2007, you wrote: > > >Well I didn't pay a lot of attention but I saw some news reports about > > >people complaining about the US Postal Service canceling the > > International > > >Surface Mail rate. The USPS was saying that they were shipping mail to > > >Africa, I think Nigeria was mentioned, and when the shipments of mail > > >arrived they just sat on the dock and no one picked them up. So they > > dropped > > >the rate and service. > > > > > >BK > > > > Tim Fisher > > Ore-ROCK-On! > > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > >-- >J Bryan Kramer >North Florida, USA >photos at: >http://pbase.com/photoburner > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Sun Dec 23 17:52:11 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Sun Dec 23 17:53:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Count us in! It might be a while though. We've got a foot of snow up here at 3,100' (down from 14" last week) with another foot expected through tomorrow. I just cleared 2" off of the satellite dish to send this! Gonna be a long winter...again. Happy holidays to all! John and Julie Santa, Idaho > Don, > > We need to get an expedition together, anyone interested in looking at > Idaho metamorphics is welcome. See you there next summer (when the snow is > much less of a problem!). From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 23 19:17:51 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 23 19:01:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <476F20EC.5B70@Tomaszewski.net> Let the List know when this gets scheduled. There is a remote chance I might be able to make it as my wife has started talking about going to Coeur D'Alene to visit two of her brothers that live there. And a Merry Christmas to all from snowy Michigan at 580'. We're about half done with the expected 8" that is coming down sideways in 40 mph winds with the thermometer at 19. Kreigh John Siebel wrote: > > Count us in! It might be a while though. We've got a foot of snow up here at > 3,100' (down from 14" last week) with another foot expected through > tomorrow. I just cleared 2" off of the satellite dish to send this! Gonna be > a long winter...again. > > Happy holidays to all! > > John and Julie > Santa, Idaho > > > Don, > > > > We need to get an expedition together, anyone interested in looking at > > Idaho metamorphics is welcome. See you there next summer (when the snow is > > much less of a problem!). > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 23 20:09:36 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 23 19:52:58 2007 Subject: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely"} References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> John Siebel wrote: > > We've got a foot of snow up here at 3,100' I'm at 580', and I didn't have to look it up (but I checked the topo map of my home, hanging on the wall in my basement office, to make sure my memory was working tonight). We are Rockhounds. We use topo maps to find collecting locations. John's elevation reference got me wondering how many Rockhounds know the elevation of their house? Is there an elevation difference between rockhounds and the general population? First question: What is the elevation of your home, and did you have to look it up? As rockhounds we collect, trade, and purchase specimens from all over the world. I've collected specimens at 11,000', and purchased a specimen from a 'black smoker' at 2,200' below sea level. My collection has an elevation range of 13,200'. Is that unusual? Second question: What is the elevation range of your collection? Please also specify a high or low. Just wondering... Kreigh From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Dec 23 20:21:51 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Dec 23 20:04:59 2007 Subject: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely"} References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <476F2FE2.4C1B@Tomaszewski.net> Oops! That was -2200 meters, not feet. My collection elevation range should have been 18,217 feet. Sorry, Kreigh Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > John Siebel wrote: > > > > We've got a foot of snow up here at 3,100' > > I'm at 580', and I didn't have to look it up (but I checked the topo > map of my home, hanging on the wall in my basement office, to make sure > my memory was working tonight). > > We are Rockhounds. We use topo maps to find collecting locations. John's > elevation reference got me wondering how many Rockhounds know the > elevation of their house? Is there an elevation difference between > rockhounds and the general population? > > First question: > > What is the elevation of your home, and did you have to look it up? > > As rockhounds we collect, trade, and purchase specimens from all over > the world. I've collected specimens at 11,000', and purchased a specimen > from a 'black smoker' at 2,200' below sea level. My collection has an > elevation range of 13,200'. Is that unusual? > > Second question: > > What is the elevation range of your collection? Please also specify > a high or low. > > Just wondering... > > Kreigh From territoones1 at ameritech.net Mon Dec 24 06:19:12 2007 From: territoones1 at ameritech.net (teresa jetter) Date: Mon Dec 24 06:19:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] New Subject line In-Reply-To: <200712240035.lBO0ZjH5022307@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <234337.91369.qm@web81714.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --Hello Everyone I have been away for a couple of months and Wow the year is almost gone! I am sending you all a wish for>MERRY CHRISTMAS<> HAPPY HOLIDAYS<, and a grand day for those who don't observe. and I pray that all of you continue to be/have good health for the following year. Happy Rock Hunting! Teri Jetter From sicree at verizon.net Mon Dec 24 06:56:32 2007 From: sicree at verizon.net (Sicree, Andrew, Ph.D.) Date: Mon Dec 24 06:38:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations) without use of hydrofluoric acid. Andy Sicree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. P. O. Box 10664 State College PA 16805 (814) 867-6263 sicree@verizon.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Mon Dec 24 07:07:28 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Mon Dec 24 07:07:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) ADFourthIssue In-Reply-To: References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com><476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com><000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o><200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002501c8463e$b35e7d90$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Tim is correct. The Postal Service is not only self supporting, but was seriously tapped for cash by the Reagan and elder Bush governments for money to offset the debt. Effectively, USPS also subsidizes, some years entirely, political mailings which must be treated as First Class mail with re-imbursement requiring congressional approval in the following years budget. Guess what is one of the first items cut from the proposed budget? While I have been retired for three years and therefore not privy to the internal rationale of the latest changes I can add some info about the history behind it. Take it as an opera in several acts. Of course, none of this is officially reported and I am offering it solely as opinion. In act one; International services are negotiated and set by international agreement. In many, perhaps most countries, services are not directly equivalent. So services are roughly aligned. That is, mail is delivered from one country to another and then handled by the receiving country as agreed. Act two: Receiving countries process mail to be delivered in their own internal systems. It is easy to think of large countries exchanging mail effectively and efficiently; well, they would if the countries have reached similar levels of automation and computerization. Very few countries are at such equilibrium. Think, as has already been mentioned, USA and Nigeria or USA and Croatia. These countries representation are more the norm rather than the exception. Act three: Mail, especially the lesser classes of mail (parcel post, second class) are rarely treated as first class mail; but when they are delivered to a country without an equivalent second class service they get shifted into another service level. Sometimes second class mail is upgraded into the first class level. Parcel post, well parcel post is technically third class mail; that is, third class mail is handled when time and transport are available after all first class mail is handled. This is why parcel post can receive a cheaper rate than first class mail. Available time and transport can be hard to come by in many receiving countries. Act four: Every country sets its own service priorities, many priorities are set by default when processing offices need to decide which mail gets processed in the operating window. If there is a lot of domestic mail and it fills the processing window, guess whose mail gets left for the next day? Yup, the international stuff; after all if it's delayed, blame the mailing country. I haven't overlooked the customs side of the equation here, all international mail must pass through customs. But since customs is outside of postal operations, I am giving it the benefit of the doubt. Besides, some international package handling services were "evaluated" by a third party. It seems that packages were entering a country, passing through customs and then getting stored by the receiving post, sometimes for weeks before handled. Why blame customs when we know there are other problems. Act five: After the services are performed and at the end of their respective fiscal accounting periods, countries submit imprest fund arrears to the mailing countries for services performed. Here we run into a very sour ball and I respectfully am speaking personally from far out on a limb. Many times it appears that the U.S. Postal Service is helping subsidize foreign postal services as the imprest charges are substantial, incredibly substantial. By international agreement, unless we can "prove" different we pay the charges. This builds a strong desire to move mail piece tracking and accountability into international mail exchange methods that allow individual mail piece tracking; something that is extremely difficult to perform in the lower mail classes. Act seven: Complaints seem to always go to the mailing country. Your magazine didn't get delivered? You complain to the mailer, who then complains to the mailing postal service. What is a country to do? Well, USPS has been trying to build services that compete with UPS, FedEx, and DHL; then it occurred to postal service execs that delivering to a delivery organization outside of foreign government influence might be beneficial. Enter FedEx, USPS and FedEx entered and agreement and the Global Express Service is the result. Want guaranteed international mail service, use the hybrid services where USPS partners with a private delivery organization. Encore: Add up unhappy mailers, recipients and Postal Services and what should one do? Well, fix the inequities if possible. For example; if USPS is paying foreign countries for first class services when second class items are "upgraded" but the receiving customers are complaining about poor or nonexistent service? Then eliminate the problem where USPS has some control, that is, the service offered or the fees charged for those services. Don't think the mailers haven't complained, they have, by the thousands; with the larger mailers getting their congressional representatives involved. This is pretty much where things stood when I retired. If anyone knows better details, please add them and correct mine. Respectfully submitted, Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 6:07 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) ADFourthIssue Well personally I would prefer that the USPS made a profit on everything and got off the taxpayer's dole. Even better they should throw mail delivery open to private competition. BK On Dec 23, 2007 5:13 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > The real reason, of course, is that it was a money loser for the > USPS. About the only option left for anything that weighs over a few > pounds is the Flat Rate Priority Mail box, which is $38 anywhere in > the world. Small parcels are still almost reasonable, at least to > Canada, where I just paid $9.00 or so to send a parcel of 3 fossils. > > At 10:54 AM 12/23/2007, you wrote: > >Well I didn't pay a lot of attention but I saw some news reports about > >people complaining about the US Postal Service canceling the > International > >Surface Mail rate. The USPS was saying that they were shipping mail to > >Africa, I think Nigeria was mentioned, and when the shipments of mail > >arrived they just sat on the dock and no one picked them up. So they > dropped > >the rate and service. > > > >BK > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rik.dillen at skynet.be Mon Dec 24 07:11:20 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Mon Dec 24 07:11:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01c8463f$3d46e740$b7d4b5c0$@dillen@skynet.be> Ammonium hydrogen fluoride (NH4)HF2 or sodium hydrogen fluoride are somewhat milder, but even those are extremely harmful substances that provoke bad burning wounds and if a drop touches the eye it can be lost in seconds ! All these products should be used only by trained professional chemists ! Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, ?B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen ? MINERANT 2008? -? 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Sicree, Andrew, Ph.D. Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:57 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations) without use of hydrofluoric acid. Andy Sicree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. P. O. Box 10664 State College PA 16805 (814) 867-6263 sicree@verizon.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Ted at crystalgems.com Mon Dec 24 07:17:23 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Mon Dec 24 07:17:27 2007 Subject: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"} In-Reply-To: <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> My house is at 270' above sea level and no, I don't have to look it up. I've fired up my GPS and TOPO software here at home central to know how high I am. I prefer to dig or break rock wherever I can. I've dug at seal level and at every level above that, well I haven't rock hounded above 10,000 feet yet, but I am still relatively young. I do prefer to dig in cool and breezy places, so I do have some preference for elevations; which here in the east is anything above 1000 feet. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 11:10 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: As a Rockhound,do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"} John Siebel wrote: > > We've got a foot of snow up here at 3,100' I'm at 580', and I didn't have to look it up (but I checked the topo map of my home, hanging on the wall in my basement office, to make sure my memory was working tonight). We are Rockhounds. We use topo maps to find collecting locations. John's elevation reference got me wondering how many Rockhounds know the elevation of their house? Is there an elevation difference between rockhounds and the general population? First question: What is the elevation of your home, and did you have to look it up? As rockhounds we collect, trade, and purchase specimens from all over the world. I've collected specimens at 11,000', and purchased a specimen from a 'black smoker' at 2,200' below sea level. My collection has an elevation range of 13,200'. Is that unusual? Second question: What is the elevation range of your collection? Please also specify a high or low. Just wondering... Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Dec 24 07:21:14 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Dec 24 07:21:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? In-Reply-To: <476F2FE2.4C1B@Tomaszewski.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook><476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> <476F2FE2.4C1B@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <004301c84640$9f376c80$6501a8c0@AxelHP> 18.217 feet? Wow, Kreigh, you must have more shoes than Imelda Marcos! Theoretically there are not much minerals to be found on the highest places on earth. At least I think that the chances are remote that you'd find a nice, well crystallized mineral on top of Mt. Everest or K2... That 's made of oceanic floor of the African continent, isn't it? The highest mine that I found is: Amincha, population 7, practically turned into a ghost town after the sulfur mine on the volcano closed in 1993. The mine was 17,500 feet high. Now, if you have sulfur crystals from that location AND you have a manganese sulfide/oxide nodule (I'm sure there is a mineral name that fits these) from the Mindanao trench at 35,000 ft deep THEN you would have a REALLY impressive elevation range of 52.500 ft. Not that 18.217 feet is nothing ;)))) Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Kreigh > Tomaszewski > Verzonden: maandag 24 december 2007 5:22 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: As a Rockhound,do you know your home's > elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of > many is shared freely"} > > Oops! That was -2200 meters, not feet. My collection > elevation range should have been 18,217 feet. > > Sorry, > > Kreigh > > > > > > Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > > John Siebel wrote: > > > > > > We've got a foot of snow up here at 3,100' > > > > I'm at 580', and I didn't have to look it up (but I checked > the topo > > map of my home, hanging on the wall in my basement office, to make > > sure my memory was working tonight). > > > > We are Rockhounds. We use topo maps to find collecting locations. > > John's elevation reference got me wondering how many > Rockhounds know > > the elevation of their house? Is there an elevation > difference between > > rockhounds and the general population? > > > > First question: > > > > What is the elevation of your home, and did you > have to look it up? > > > > As rockhounds we collect, trade, and purchase specimens > from all over > > the world. I've collected specimens at 11,000', and purchased a > > specimen from a 'black smoker' at 2,200' below sea level. My > > collection has an elevation range of 13,200'. Is that unusual? > > > > Second question: > > > > What is the elevation range of your collection? > Please also specify > > a high or low. > > > > Just wondering... > > > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From OnyxCollector at aol.com Mon Dec 24 09:01:35 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 24 09:01:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? Message-ID: We're 30 miles north of Mr. Siebel and only 305 feet lower in elevation, but haven't gotten any snow down to the house yet...... how come he's so lucky? I think the little ski area to the west sucks all the snow from the sky before it gets over here. As for collecting, I've collected from about a foot deep in the Pacific to 11,021..... collecting from from a black smoker must be pretty cool! OnyxCollector **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lanny at lrream.com Mon Dec 24 09:24:01 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Mon Dec 24 09:24:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely" In-Reply-To: <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <82ed625f75d57e711a5c922f5a22f634@lrream.com> Hi John and Julie, It's already a long winter. Hasn't it been snowing up here for 3 months already? Don probably hasn't noticed though, he's living in the Moscow banana belt. Now with Christmas here, January isn't far away, and if I remember right, that's a month that's something like 60+ days of snow. Guess we'll have to wait a few months. See you on the St. Joe-Clearwater divide in July or August 2008! Regards, Lanny On Dec 23, 2007, at 5:52 PM, John Siebel wrote: > Count us in! It might be a while though. We've got a foot of snow up > here at 3,100' (down from 14" last week) with another foot expected > through tomorrow. I just cleared 2" off of the satellite dish to send > this! Gonna be a long winter...again. > > Happy holidays to all! > > John and Julie > Santa, Idaho > >> Don, >> >> We need to get an expedition together, anyone interested in looking >> at Idaho metamorphics is welcome. See you there next summer (when the >> snow is much less of a problem!). > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From lanny at lrream.com Mon Dec 24 10:36:03 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Mon Dec 24 10:36:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Idaho Metamorphics trip, was "... shared freely..." In-Reply-To: <476F20EC.5B70@Tomaszewski.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F20EC.5B70@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <37e736e489a26bfe3598776352bf0a87@lrream.com> Seems to me John and Julie along with Don have been kicking around the idea of getting a trip together up into the northern Idaho metamorphics for a year or two. We shall have to do that now we've brought the subject up enough on the list. Due to winter lasting a while up this way, and the area of interest is 5,000-8,000 feet elevation, we have to wait a while. The area is mostly free of snow by the 4th of July, but a snow bank here and there can keep roads blocked through August some years, generally it is all open in July. Thus plan on something happening in July or August. Regards, Lanny On Dec 23, 2007, at 7:17 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Let the List know when this gets scheduled. There is a remote chance I > might be able to make it as my wife has started talking about going to > Coeur D'Alene to visit two of her brothers that live there. > > And a Merry Christmas to all from snowy Michigan at 580'. We're about > half done with the expected 8" that is coming down sideways in 40 mph > winds with the thermometer at 19. > > Kreigh From lanny at lrream.com Mon Dec 24 11:04:17 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Mon Dec 24 11:04:27 2007 Subject: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely"} In-Reply-To: <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <98d8f9397e63678dde0dc334fc296df7@lrream.com> On Dec 23, 2007, at 8:09 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > ... > > We are Rockhounds. We use topo maps to find collecting locations. > John's > elevation reference got me wondering how many Rockhounds know the > elevation of their house? Is there an elevation difference between > rockhounds and the general population? > > First question: > > What is the elevation of your home, and did you have to look it up? Home at 2,240 feet, give or take a few feet, known it since we moved across town, slightly higher than the old house. > > As rockhounds we collect, trade, and purchase specimens from all over > the world. I've collected specimens at 11,000', and purchased a > specimen > from a 'black smoker' at 2,200' below sea level. My collection has an > elevation range of 13,200'. Is that unusual? I would say that having specimens over that range of elevation is unusual, because most collectors don't have a specimen of any kind from the the ocean floor or ridges. Having specimens from sea level to over 13,000 feet is not unusual considering the Pakistan and Afghanistan pegmatite minerals available and material from various mines in the Andes and Colorado. > > Second question: > > What is the elevation range of your collection? Please also specify > a high or low. My collection: from sea level to more than 13,100+ feet: personally collected from Oregon and Washington coast to Mount Antero and Mount White in Colorado. Purchased specimens: don't know the actual elevations, but probably something similar. > > Just wondering... > > Kreigh > Regards, Lanny From wdeanwelder at yahoo.com Mon Dec 24 13:10:53 2007 From: wdeanwelder at yahoo.com (Dean Welder) Date: Mon Dec 24 13:10:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Vehicles In-Reply-To: <008f01c8308a$cffcf220$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <835608.6618.qm@web51106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- "Tim Jokela Jr." wrote: > Lots of folks bragging about their massive trucks; wonder what > they'll drive > when oil hits $200 a barrel? Me: A bigger truck then I have now, but a diesel. Like you rightly pointed out but said in a different way, it is all about tradeoffs and making the right compromise *for me/us*. >but I suspect most big trucks are bought by those with... inadequacies... > in other departments. And my wife is the one who, when I suggested F350 (1-ton), said, Ohhh what about an F450 (1.25 ton)? Dean ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Dec 24 16:48:17 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Dec 24 16:28:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Getting Coal For Christmas Message-ID: <47704EA8.548D@Tomaszewski.net> A Christmas Eve rockhounding comic http://www.arcamax.com/pickles From codeburner at gmail.com Mon Dec 24 19:03:40 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Dec 24 19:04:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas Message-ID: Here are a couple of musical gems for Christmas: http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Vr2MB426j0 http://youtube.com/watch?v=V5ckePkXkuY And for our friends south of the border: I hope that last one is OK, I had a heck of a time finding spanish Chrismas Carols on Youtube. BK -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jabac at hal-pc.org Mon Dec 24 21:49:13 2007 From: jabac at hal-pc.org (jabac) Date: Mon Dec 24 20:50:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT postage Australia & New Zealand (was) AD FourthIssue In-Reply-To: References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <477099D9.1010002@hal-pc.org> J Bryan Kramer wrote: > Well personally I would prefer that the USPS made a profit on everything and > got off the taxpayer's dole. Even better they should throw mail delivery > open to private competition. > > BK > > On Dec 23, 2007 5:13 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > > >>The real reason, of course, is that it was a money loser for the >>USPS. About the only option left for anything that weighs over a few >>pounds is the Flat Rate Priority Mail box, which is $38 anywhere in >>the world. Small parcels are still almost reasonable, at least to >>Canada, where I just paid $9.00 or so to send a parcel of 3 fossils. >> Well, in truth, they do make a profit. Quite a substantial one too if normal accounting methods were used to measure it. But Congress, in its wisdom, always seems to find a way to "redirect" it to a better cause. USPS takes no Federal money (except for a few minor projects), but contributes substantial amounts to the US Treasury. I agree there is a problem with the newer service "standards". When I went to work there some 30 years ago, I was expecting the traditions of the USPOD to still be there. And they were, but only among the older people who have since retired. USPS is an entirely different entity. Private delivery of First Class Mail would be a disaster. Services are hard-pressed now and are fading more every day, as the above illustrates. But the private people would keep only the profitable urban services and shut down ALL the others. In effect, there would be UPS and FedEx for packages for the suburbs, and nothing but the Internet for rural areas. The bean counters are wrecking enough havoc as it is! It's a pity too. Here is the one "government" service that is universally known and respected, with traditions that go all the way back to B. Franklin, and it is being slowly savaged into extinction. The Internet doesn't help, of course, but it is not the root cause of the lowering of standards. I am not quite sure what is is exactly, but greed comes to mind. And as Ted says, a lot of this is tied up in foreign governments, international treaties, and even the UPU, which has their own idea of service. Oops! too far off topic I guess. Sorry, guys. john From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Dec 24 23:21:26 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Dec 24 23:22:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Way OT Re:PO References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <477099D9.1010002@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <001001c846c6$c7970010$0200a8c0@Notebook> Sorry to perpetuate this OT thread but this is a serious issue with us. We live 3.5 miles up a gravel road from the Santa, Idaho post office. Our "street address" was given to us at random by the phone company when they installed our phone and it is shared with a neighbor who has a driveway near ours. This is the address on my driver's license and it is critical for various services such as 911 emergencies as well as other services that require a street address as opposed to a P.O. Box # (you might be surprised what is unavailable without an "actual" address.) UPS and FedX will not deliver to a PO box and they won't deliver to our fictional street address. So if you're sending us rocks for Christmas (HA!! on topic after all!!) you have to send C/O to the Fernwood Mercantile. John From efkern at earthlink.net Tue Dec 25 00:36:47 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Tue Dec 25 00:36:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid References: <000b01c8463f$3d46e740$b7d4b5c0$@dillen@skynet.be> Message-ID: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> I know NH4HF2 as ammonium bifluoride and have used it for years to remove silicate crusts from fluorite specimens. I wouldn't use hydrofluoric acid under any circumstances, very nasty stuff, but ammonium bifluoride is relatively safe. I've put my hand in a solution for a few seconds on occasion, but always have a bucket of fresh water at hand to rinse off immediately. The only protection I use are safety glasses, since as Rik says, you could lose an eye if the splash is copious enough. Always have fresh water at hand, in a bucket or the kitchen fawcet to rinse with, even when using milder acids like HCL. No, I'm not a trained professional chemist, but have learned by experience. BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an acid solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. Erich Kern Murrieta, Calif. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rik Dillen To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:11 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid Ammonium hydrogen fluoride (NH4)HF2 or sodium hydrogen fluoride are somewhat milder, but even those are extremely harmful substances that provoke bad burning wounds and if a drop touches the eye it can be lost in seconds ! All these products should be used only by trained professional chemists ! Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Sicree, Andrew, Ph.D. Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:57 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations) without use of hydrofluoric acid. Andy Sicree ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. P. O. Box 10664 State College PA 16805 (814) 867-6263 sicree@verizon.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockhound at btinternet.com Tue Dec 25 02:04:01 2007 From: rockhound at btinternet.com (Neil A) Date: Tue Dec 25 02:08:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18AC716B97724E1C9E183B5C5E62D4C1@GodsbodPC> Not been so active this year, new job, pressures of life, etc etc But my warmest wishes go out to you all, and some of you, whom I have made personal contact with that little bit more. May yuletide bring you all the warmest feelings. regards Neil A ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" To: "digital-rebels" ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 3:03 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas > Here are a couple of musical gems for Christmas: > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Vr2MB426j0 > > http://youtube.com/watch?v=V5ckePkXkuY > > And for our friends south of the border: > > > > I hope that last one is OK, I had a heck of a time finding spanish > Chrismas > Carols on Youtube. > > BK > > -- > J Bryan Kramer > North Florida, USA > photos at: > http://pbase.com/photoburner > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 05:47:07 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Dec 25 05:47:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: I assume you are using the bifluoride in an acidic solution, when you do that you convert it to HF. I have always just regarded it as a safer way to store HF. But once you mix it with acid it is hydrofluoric acid. BK On Dec 25, 2007 3:36 AM, Erich Kern wrote: > > > I know NH4HF2 as ammonium bifluoride and have used it for years to remove > silicate crusts from fluorite specimens. I wouldn't use hydrofluoric acid > under any circumstances, very nasty stuff, but ammonium bifluoride is > relatively safe. I've put my hand in a solution for a few seconds on > occasion, but always have a bucket of fresh water at hand to rinse off > immediately. The only protection I use are safety glasses, since as Rik > says, you could lose an eye if the splash is copious enough. Always have > fresh water at hand, in a bucket or the kitchen fawcet to rinse with, even > when using milder acids like HCL. No, I'm not a trained professional > chemist, but have learned by experience. > > BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an acid > solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. > > Erich Kern > Murrieta, Calif. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rik Dillen > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:11 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > > Ammonium hydrogen fluoride (NH4)HF2 or sodium hydrogen fluoride are > somewhat milder, but even those are extremely > harmful substances that provoke bad burning wounds and if a drop touches > the eye it can be lost in seconds ! > All these products should be used only by trained professional chemists ! > Greetings, > > Rik DILLEN > Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium > E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > > MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 > Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) > Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen > http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto: > rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Sicree, Andrew, > Ph.D. > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:57 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > > I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways > to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations) > without use of hydrofluoric acid. > > Andy Sicree > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. > P. O. Box 10664 > State College PA 16805 > (814) 867-6263 > sicree@verizon.net > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > application/ms-tnef > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Dec 25 06:00:23 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Dec 25 06:04:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: OT USPS In-Reply-To: <477099D9.1010002@hal-pc.org> References: <20071223053100.17527.qmail@webmachine101.com> <476BFC7B0001C6F7@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <000001c84591$89311990$564cd0c4@federatiydq01o> <200712232216.lBNMGBEK031108@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <477099D9.1010002@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <200712251403.lBPE3Blh017195@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I really don't know where you get this information from. According to the US Treasury, the USPS was $92 billion in debt in 2003 and is barely making its treasury payments. If "contributing to the US treasury" means repaying their hefty federal debt (7-11 billion/year), then your statement is accurate. The feds only excuse debt when it is politically expedient to do so (i.e., bribes). They showed 32 straight years of losses and posted their first modern day profits in 2004 & 2005. I worked for and currently contract to another semi-privatized govt. agency, the Bonneville Power Administration (12 years) and I know the difficulty these "govt. corporations" have in making US treasury repayments, and the constant pressure by presidents and certain idiots in congress to squeeze even more from them. I am not aware that these attacks have ever been successful, and in the case of BPA, at least, they have never been successful (at least not since 1974 when BPA was made "self-financing", by Gerry Ford). If you want to see where the USPS "profits" go, see http://www.treas.gov/offices/domestic-finance/usps/pdf/freport.pdf I am unsurprised that half their debt is related to retired employees' health expenses. After all, they deserve their reputation as the best benefits provider for their employees in the country. The people who put up with working there (I know a few, heck, everybody does, since they are the largest employer in the country) deserve all the benefits they get, IMHO. At 09:49 PM 12/24/2007, you wrote: >Well, in truth, they do make a profit. Quite a substantial one too if >normal accounting methods were used to measure it. But Congress, in its >wisdom, always seems to find a way to "redirect" it to a better cause. >USPS takes no Federal money (except for a few minor projects), but >contributes substantial amounts to the US Treasury. > >I agree there is a problem with the newer service "standards". When I >went to work there some 30 years ago, I was expecting the traditions of >the USPOD to still be there. And they were, but only among the older >people who have since retired. USPS is an entirely different entity. > >Private delivery of First Class Mail would be a disaster. Services are >hard-pressed now and are fading more every day, as the above >illustrates. But the private people would keep only the profitable urban > services and shut down ALL the others. In effect, there would be UPS >and FedEx for packages for the suburbs, and nothing but the Internet for >rural areas. The bean counters are wrecking enough havoc as it is! > >It's a pity too. Here is the one "government" service that is >universally known and respected, with traditions that go all the way >back to B. Franklin, and it is being slowly savaged into extinction. The >Internet doesn't help, of course, but it is not the root cause of the >lowering of standards. I am not quite sure what is is exactly, but greed >comes to mind. And as Ted says, a lot of this is tied up in foreign >governments, international treaties, and even the UPU, which has >their own idea of service. > >Oops! too far off topic I guess. Sorry, guys. > > >john Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From kcbaran at arczip.com Tue Dec 25 11:37:22 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Tue Dec 25 11:44:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <18AC716B97724E1C9E183B5C5E62D4C1@GodsbodPC> References: <18AC716B97724E1C9E183B5C5E62D4C1@GodsbodPC> Message-ID: <47715BF2.1070706@arczip.com> Same here; Merry Christmas and thank you to all for all the great advice and information. Take care. Chuck Baran Neil A wrote: > Not been so active this year, new job, pressures of life, etc etc > > But my warmest wishes go out to you all, and some of you, whom I have > made personal contact with that little bit more. > > May yuletide bring you all the warmest feelings. > > regards > > Neil A > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Bryan Kramer" > > To: "digital-rebels" ; > "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 3:03 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas > > >> Here are a couple of musical gems for Christmas: >> >> http://youtube.com/watch?v=9Vr2MB426j0 >> >> http://youtube.com/watch?v=V5ckePkXkuY >> >> And for our friends south of the border: >> >> >> >> I hope that last one is OK, I had a heck of a time finding spanish >> Chrismas >> Carols on Youtube. >> >> BK >> >> -- >> J Bryan Kramer >> North Florida, USA >> photos at: >> http://pbase.com/photoburner >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Tue Dec 25 16:59:52 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Dec 25 17:00:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Happy Holidays and a lava link In-Reply-To: <18AC716B97724E1C9E183B5C5E62D4C1@GodsbodPC> References: <18AC716B97724E1C9E183B5C5E62D4C1@GodsbodPC> Message-ID: <476BFC7E00038C50@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Best wishes to everyone for the holiday season. It's a time of year when we think of giving and friendship. Our gift to you is a link to the following site which has some awe-inspiring pictures of lava here in Hawaii---most from about five years ago. http://www.lavajunkie.com/gallery.html Aloha nui loa, Kitty & Bill From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 25 18:28:56 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 25 18:29:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid References: <000b01c8463f$3d46e740$b7d4b5c0$@dillen@skynet.be> <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> It is my understanding that quartz is usually precipitated by alkaline solutions. Adding heat and pressure may dissolve existing quartz without the use of Fluorine. Kreigh Erich Kern wrote: > > > > BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an acid solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. > > Erich Kern > Murrieta, Calif. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rik Dillen > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:11 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > Ammonium hydrogen fluoride (NH4)HF2 or sodium hydrogen fluoride are somewhat milder, but even those are extremely > harmful substances that provoke bad burning wounds and if a drop touches the eye it can be lost in seconds ! > All these products should be used only by trained professional chemists ! > Greetings, > > Rik DILLEN > Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium > E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > > MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 > Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) > Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen > http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Sicree, Andrew, > Ph.D. > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:57 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways > to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations) > without use of hydrofluoric acid. > > Andy Sicree > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. > P. O. Box 10664 > State College PA 16805 > (814) 867-6263 > sicree@verizon.net From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 18:54:27 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Dec 25 18:54:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Hmmm... I think I'd rather work with HF than hot pressurized sodium hydroxide solution. Acids require caution, but concentrated bases are much more dangerous since YOU are soluble in them, especially your eyes. YMMV BK On Dec 25, 2007 9:28 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > It is my understanding that quartz is usually precipitated by alkaline > solutions. Adding heat and pressure may dissolve existing quartz without > the use of Fluorine. > > Kreigh > > > Erich Kern wrote: > > > > > > > > BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an acid > solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. > > > > Erich Kern > > Murrieta, Calif. > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From roughrock at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 19:15:00 2007 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Tue Dec 25 19:15:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Peter Modreski discovery, NM, 1983 Message-ID: Click here: nm mineral locations http://www.agmc.info/nm_mineral_locations.htm#Black%20Range%20Tin% "Noteworthy at this location is the first New Mexico and United States occurrence of the new mineral molybdofornacite, a new lead-copper-arsenate-molybdate hydroxide first described from Tsumeb, Namibia, in 1983. Analysis and identification was completed by the "team" of Paul Hlava and Peter Modreski. Data on the new mineral from New Mexico was presented in a paper by Hlava, Modreski, et al at the Friends of Mineralogy Symposium held in conjunction with the February 1983 Tucson Gem and Mineral Show." OK, OK, I'm a little late -- but I still found it. Grant Johnston From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 25 19:48:53 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 25 19:48:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> Bryan, My bad. I should have clearly noted this was a "Don't try this at home" suggestion. The semiconductor industry has much information on dissolving and depositing silica since it is the basis of the computers we use to communicate. They have found some interesting ways of handling silica. Thanks for the safety reminder. Kreigh J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > Hmmm... I think I'd rather work with HF than hot pressurized sodium > hydroxide solution. Acids require caution, but concentrated bases are much > more dangerous since YOU are soluble in them, especially your eyes. YMMV > > BK > > On Dec 25, 2007 9:28 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > It is my understanding that quartz is usually precipitated by alkaline > > solutions. Adding heat and pressure may dissolve existing quartz without > > the use of Fluorine. > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > Erich Kern wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an acid > > solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. > > > > > > Erich Kern > > > Murrieta, Calif. > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Dec 25 19:59:23 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Dec 25 19:59:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Peter Modreski discovery, NM, 1983 References: Message-ID: <4771D197.7939@Tomaszewski.net> Grant, The obvious question is "How the heck did you run across this reference -- what were you looking for?". Way to go Pete! Thank you, Grant, for a very interesting reference. Kreigh Grant Johnston wrote: > > Click here: nm mineral locations > http://www.agmc.info/nm_mineral_locations.htm#Black%20Range%20Tin% > > "Noteworthy at this location is the first New Mexico and United States > occurrence of the new mineral molybdofornacite, a new > lead-copper-arsenate-molybdate hydroxide first described from Tsumeb, > Namibia, in 1983. Analysis and identification was completed by the > "team" of Paul Hlava and Peter Modreski. Data on the new mineral from > New Mexico was presented in a paper by Hlava, Modreski, et al at the > Friends of Mineralogy Symposium held in conjunction with the February > 1983 Tucson Gem and Mineral Show." > > OK, OK, I'm a little late -- but I still found it. > > Grant Johnston > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From roughrock at gmail.com Tue Dec 25 20:13:13 2007 From: roughrock at gmail.com (Grant Johnston) Date: Tue Dec 25 20:13:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Peter Modreski discovery, NM, 1983 In-Reply-To: <4771D197.7939@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4771D197.7939@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: The list of sites was posted on a Yahoo rockhound list. I was reading it, wishing I was in New Mexico and there was Peter, making a discovery. Grant On Dec 25, 2007 7:59 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Grant, > > The obvious question is "How the heck did you run across this reference > -- what were you looking for?". > > Way to go Pete! Thank you, Grant, for a very interesting reference. > > Kreigh > > > > > Grant Johnston wrote: > > > > Click here: nm mineral locations > > http://www.agmc.info/nm_mineral_locations.htm#Black%20Range%20Tin% > > > > "Noteworthy at this location is the first New Mexico and United States > > occurrence of the new mineral molybdofornacite, a new > > lead-copper-arsenate-molybdate hydroxide first described from Tsumeb, > > Namibia, in 1983. Analysis and identification was completed by the > > "team" of Paul Hlava and Peter Modreski. Data on the new mineral from > > New Mexico was presented in a paper by Hlava, Modreski, et al at the > > Friends of Mineralogy Symposium held in conjunction with the February > > 1983 Tucson Gem and Mineral Show." > > > > OK, OK, I'm a little late -- but I still found it. > > > > Grant Johnston > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Tue Dec 25 20:25:40 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Tue Dec 25 20:25:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? In-Reply-To: <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: I hope you all had a safe and joyful Christmas. We visited family in north Alabama and stopped at a couple of new road cuts on future I-22 west of Birmingham on our way home. The material looks like what we find in an old coal strip mine near there and we found a couple of poor quality trace fossils before giving up and continuing toward home. I was there long enough to smack my thumb with my rock hammer while splitting an interesting piece of material. Oh sure, there was plenty to look at without having to split anything, but how much fun is that considering the pretty purple thumb I can study for a week or so? Now for Kreigh's questions: El : 46' I have checked it many times with flood concerns here near the gulf coast. Turns out I have no worries unless global warming raises sea level a bunch. And when we acquired our GPS we had to try it. Looking it up again was not necessary. But the collection range is another story. AFIK a few feet below sea level for some red South Pacific coral (purchased at a show) and fewer feet deep for some self collected sea specimens, to some yard rocks from near the top of a 14er just because we were there. The black smoker specimen requires a bit of explanation please. How did you come by that Kreigh? Glenn > From: Kreigh@tomaszewski.net> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> Subject: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list where the knowledge of many is shared freely"}> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 23:09:36 -0500> > John Siebel wrote:> > > > We've got a foot of snow up here at 3,100'> > I'm at 580', and I didn't have to look it up (but I checked the topo> map of my home, hanging on the wall in my basement office, to make sure> my memory was working tonight).> > We are Rockhounds. We use topo maps to find collecting locations. John's> elevation reference got me wondering how many Rockhounds know the> elevation of their house? Is there an elevation difference between> rockhounds and the general population?> > First question:> > What is the elevation of your home, and did you have to look it up?> > As rockhounds we collect, trade, and purchase specimens from all over> the world. I've collected specimens at 11,000', and purchased a specimen> from a 'black smoker' at 2,200' below sea level. My collection has an> elevation range of 13,200'. Is that unusual?> > Second question:> > What is the elevation range of your collection? Please also specify > a high or low.> > Just wondering...> > Kreigh> > -- > _______________________________________________> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List> Subscription Services:> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_wlhmtextlink1_dec --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 05:13:19 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Dec 26 05:13:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: I must confess to be a bit paranoid about strong bases, I had a third degree burn from cold concentrated sodium hydroxide years ago. I did not enjoy the experience...heh. Acids usually give you a warning, that old burning sensation, but bases do their damage without warning. Also a bit of water rinses the acid right off, not so with the bases. BK On Dec 25, 2007 10:48 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Bryan, > > My bad. I should have clearly noted this was a "Don't try this at home" > suggestion. > > The semiconductor industry has much information on dissolving and > depositing silica since it is the basis of the computers we use to > communicate. They have found some interesting ways of handling silica. > > Thanks for the safety reminder. > > Kreigh > > > > > > J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > > Hmmm... I think I'd rather work with HF than hot pressurized sodium > > hydroxide solution. Acids require caution, but concentrated bases are > much > > more dangerous since YOU are soluble in them, especially your eyes. YMMV > > > > BK > > > > On Dec 25, 2007 9:28 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski > wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that quartz is usually precipitated by alkaline > > > solutions. Adding heat and pressure may dissolve existing quartz > without > > > the use of Fluorine. > > > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > > Erich Kern wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an > acid > > > solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. > > > > > > > > Erich Kern > > > > Murrieta, Calif. > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rik.dillen at skynet.be Wed Dec 26 06:11:45 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Wed Dec 26 06:11:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000601c847c9$3f4d5390$bde7fab0$@dillen@skynet.be> -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:13 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid I must confess to be a bit paranoid about strong bases, I had a third degree burn from cold concentrated sodium hydroxide years ago. I did not enjoy the experience...heh. Acids usually give you a warning, that old burning sensation, but bases do their damage without warning. Also a bit of water rinses the acid right off, not so with the bases. BK (Bryan Kramer) >>>>> For the most common acids, yes, but not so for hydrofluoric acid : vapours (and liquid) penetrate preferentially between the skin and fingernails, without anything you notice (at first). Only after minutes it starts to heart so much that you would want to cut your fingers off. Unfortunately I had that experience once (in a relatively light degree) when I was at the university (I did resist the temptation to cut my fingers off, though). Some years ago a colleague had to have surgery after an incident with HF in our lab : all five fingernails from his right hand had to removed ! I agree completely with the fact, however, that boiling, pressurised hydroxyde solutions are equally dangerous or even worse... Grts, and BTW merry Christmas ! Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, ?B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen ? MINERANT 2008? -? 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ From nospam at orerockon.com Wed Dec 26 07:27:12 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Wed Dec 26 07:30:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> References: <000b01c8463f$3d46e740$b7d4b5c0$@dillen@skynet.be> <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <200712261530.lBQFUAw4011020@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I have been thinking of booking Bob Jackson's Rock Candy mine trip (Grand Forks, BC) for a few years now, so out of curiosity, is the fluorite from there typically coated with quartz? Would I need this stuff to clean it if I did collect there? Interesting, but irrelevant: The mine is on Big Rock Candy Mountain, those of you who have seen the the Coen Bros' "O Brother Where Art Thou" recognize the song by famous hobo Harry McClintock (if you were paying attention lol) which he recorded in 1928 and had been singing since 1897 according to Wiki. I just answered my own question about which came first, the mountain or the song, (thanks Wiki lol), since the mine was developed in the 1920s, so the miners obviously were familiar with the song. I love the references to cigarette trees, streams of alcohol, lake of whiskey, rubber-toothed bulldogs, the tin jail, etc., that greet presumably deceased hobos in the song. And "where they hung the guy that invented work" is one of my all time favorite song lyrics :) At 12:36 AM 12/25/2007, you wrote: >I know NH4HF2 as ammonium bifluoride and have used it for years to >remove silicate crusts from fluorite specimens. I wouldn't use >hydrofluoric acid under any circumstances, very nasty stuff, but >ammonium bifluoride is relatively safe. I've put my hand in a >solution for a few seconds on occasion, but always have a bucket of >fresh water at hand to rinse off immediately. The only protection I >use are safety glasses, since as Rik says, you could lose an eye if >the splash is copious enough. Always have fresh water at hand, in a >bucket or the kitchen fawcet to rinse with, even when using milder >acids like HCL. No, I'm not a trained professional chemist, but have >learned by experience. > >BTW, if you wet your hand with fresh water before putting it in an >acid solution, it helps a great deal to minimise skin irritation. > >Erich Kern >Murrieta, Calif. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Rik Dillen >To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' >Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 7:11 AM >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > >Ammonium hydrogen fluoride (NH4)HF2 or sodium hydrogen fluoride are >somewhat milder, but even those are extremely >harmful substances that provoke bad burning wounds and if a drop >touches the eye it can be lost in seconds ! >All these products should be used only by trained professional chemists ! >Greetings, > >Rik DILLEN >Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas >Belgium >E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be >Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > >MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 >Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) >Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen >http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html >Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > >-----Original Message----- >From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >[mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Sicree, Andrew, >Ph.D. >Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 3:57 PM >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > >I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways >to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations) >without use of hydrofluoric acid. > >Andy Sicree > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > >Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. >P. O. Box 10664 >State College PA 16805 >(814) 867-6263 >sicree@verizon.net > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--- > > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > application/ms-tnef >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Dec 26 08:54:49 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Dec 26 08:54:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Undersea drilling for methane hydrate Message-ID: <000f01c847e0$07708480$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> Off the coast of Honshu, Japan.... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aiUsVKaqDA7g# Erich Kern --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Dec 26 09:41:29 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Dec 26 09:41:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) Message-ID: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Did you hear about the tiger escaping at the San Francisco zoo on Christmas Day? My daughter Emily and I walked passed the tigers at 11:30 a.m. My parents were there several hours later. The tiger got out and killed one person and injured two others before being killed at closing time around 5:00 p.m. I guess it is safer to go to a movie on Christmas Day than going to the zoo! I suspect someone was rushing to go home at the end of the day and left a door unlatched. I suppose the news will come out eventually. Too close for comfort - especially for my parents who left the zoo at 4:00 p.m.! Back home today. Left for home in the afternoon, got in to Louisville at 1:00 this morning - the last arriving flight of the day. Unless you are in a UPS box, our airport closes about 12:30 am and opens a few hours later. That's kind of like collecting at a site that collapses a kills another person a few hours later. Timing is everything! (There, I made a connection to the hobby...) Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 09:50:09 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Dec 26 09:50:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) In-Reply-To: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: That tiger attacked one of the zookeepers some months ago. I suspect that the zoo is heading for a big negligence lawsuit, not that that will bring back the poor dead fellow. BK On Dec 26, 2007 12:41 PM, Alan Goldstein wrote: > Did you hear about the tiger escaping at the San Francisco zoo on > Christmas Day? My daughter Emily and I walked passed the tigers at 11:30 > a.m. My parents were there several hours later. The tiger got out and > killed one person and injured two others before being killed at closing time > around 5:00 p.m. I guess it is safer to go to a movie on Christmas Day > than going to the zoo! I suspect someone was rushing to go home at the end > of the day and left a door unlatched. I suppose the news will come out > eventually. Too close for comfort - especially for my parents who left the > zoo at 4:00 p.m.! > > Back home today. Left for home in the afternoon, got in to Louisville at > 1:00 this morning - the last arriving flight of the day. Unless you are in a > UPS box, our airport closes about 12:30 am and opens a few hours later. > > That's kind of like collecting at a site that collapses a kills another > person a few hours later. Timing is everything! (There, I made a connection > to the hobby...) > > Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jaybates at rcn.com Wed Dec 26 10:14:40 2007 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Wed Dec 26 10:13:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) References: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000701c847eb$34454260$6401a8c0@astound.net> My daughter Emily was here on last Thanksgiving with her two daughters and visited the SF zoo. She dreamt of being chased by a tiger last night without knowing about the latest tiger escape. I have a friend that used to work at the zoo who said that animals escaped there more than the public was aware. The past president of our club was in charge of the big cats when the keeper was mauled. He is still dealing with that episode. I hope he is not still involved with the big cats. Too bad they didn't destroy that cat after the mauling. Of course the animal lovers probably would have raised bloody hell if they had. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Goldstein To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) Did you hear about the tiger escaping at the San Francisco zoo on Christmas Day? My daughter Emily and I walked passed the tigers at 11:30 a.m. My parents were there several hours later. The tiger got out and killed one person and injured two others before being killed at closing time around 5:00 p.m. I guess it is safer to go to a movie on Christmas Day than going to the zoo! I suspect someone was rushing to go home at the end of the day and left a door unlatched. I suppose the news will come out eventually. Too close for comfort - especially for my parents who left the zoo at 4:00 p.m.! Back home today. Left for home in the afternoon, got in to Louisville at 1:00 this morning - the last arriving flight of the day. Unless you are in a UPS box, our airport closes about 12:30 am and opens a few hours later. That's kind of like collecting at a site that collapses a kills another person a few hours later. Timing is everything! (There, I made a connection to the hobby...) Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pmodreski at aol.com Wed Dec 26 10:28:10 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 26 10:28:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Paleo-too close (no longer OT) In-Reply-To: <000701c847eb$34454260$6401a8c0@astound.net> References: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000701c847eb$34454260$6401a8c0@astound.net> Message-ID: <8CA160433A70F4E-D3C-1D16@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> Just think how potentially dangerous the zoos would be if we still had sabre-tooth cats, mammoths, cave bears, and dire wolves around; not to mention of course, allosaurs and tyrannosaurs and velociraptors--those would REALLY make a zoo a high risk zone!? (hmmm, seems like someone may have made a movie or two along that theme...). And for that matter, our aquarium displays are pretty tame and safe now (people rarely fall into the shark tank--and I don't know if any aquaria keep Great Whites),?but let's be glad that they don't try to stock them with Megalodon, or mosasaurs and plesiosaurs (Tylosaurus and friends), or the giant Cretaceous crocodilians (like Deinosuchus)! Pete -----Original Message----- From: jaybates To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:14 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) My daughter Emily was here on last Thanksgiving with her two daughters and visited the SF zoo. She dreamt of being chased by a tiger last night without knowing about the latest tiger escape. I have a friend that used to work at the zoo who said that animals escaped there more than the public was aware. The past president of our club was in charge of the big cats when the keeper was mauled. He is still dealing with that episode. I hope he is not still involved with the big cats. Too bad they didn't destroy that cat after the mauling. Of course the animal lovers probably would have raised bloody hell if they had. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Goldstein To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lanny at lrream.com Wed Dec 26 10:36:18 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Wed Dec 26 10:36:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). Regards, Lanny On Dec 25, 2007, at 7:48 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Bryan, > > My bad. I should have clearly noted this was a "Don't try this at home" > suggestion. > > The semiconductor industry has much information on dissolving and > depositing silica since it is the basis of the computers we use to > communicate. They have found some interesting ways of handling silica. > > Thanks for the safety reminder. > > Kreigh > > From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Dec 26 11:02:47 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Dec 26 11:01:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> Lanny wrote: > Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not > silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in > dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). But where do they get the silicon? I think there are quartz mines with relatively pure quartz used for semiconductors. I can't think of too many ways besides acids to get the silicon isolated (then again I'm not a chemist). Best, Don From pmodreski at aol.com Wed Dec 26 11:12:55 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 26 11:13:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Big Rock Candy Mountain (was, attacking quartz without HF...) In-Reply-To: <200712261530.lBQFUAw4011020@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <000b01c8463f$3d46e740$b7d4b5c0$@dillen@skynet.be> <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <200712261530.lBQFUAw4011020@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <8CA160A741483D4-D3C-1EF7@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> There's another Big Rock Candy Mountain; at Marysvale, Utah--an area of volcanic rocks and mineral deposits.? Below is an excerpt of what Wikipedia has to say about the place(s) (imagined and real) by that name.? I visited Big Rock Candy Mountain (the Utah one) back in the 80s on a geologic field trip; we even stayed at the resort of that name, as per below.??This Big Rock Candy Mountain is a mostly bare hill of hydrothermally altered (leached by acidic waters) volcanic rock, hence the resemblence to a big mound of multicolored sugar.? The resort boasts a number of hot springs, most of which are quite acidic.? We were much amused that they were selling jugs of water from the "Lemonade Spring", with a recommendation to take a tablespoon or two of it in a gallon of water for medicinal purposes.? Heavens, the water was yellow, full of iron,?and had a pH probably in the neighborhood of 3 or so (I'll have to check)--good luck to anyone who has imbibed it at any greater concentration!? According to the USGS geographic names database "GNIS" website, the name for the this Big Rock Candy Mountain seems to have been officially adopted on USGS topographic maps only as of 1979. WIKIPEDIA-BIG ROCK CANDY MOUNTAIN Shortly after the release of the song in 1928, some local residents, as a joke, placed a sign at the base of cluster of some brightly-colored hills a short distance north of Marysvale, Utah near Fishlake National Forest naming it ?Big Rock Candy Mountain.? They also placed a sign next to a nearby spring proclaiming it ?Lemon Springs.? The Big Rock Candy Mountain Resort currently sits at the base of the hills and is a major hub in the Paiute ATV trail. [3] ? The largest exposed rock in the South Platte rock climbing area of Colorado is also called "Big Rock Candy Mountain" because of its colored stripes resembling a candy cane.[4][5] ? One of the peaks in the Capitol State Forest in Washington State is named "Big Rock Candy Mountain." ? A mine located approximately 24 kilometers north of Grand Forks, B.C., Canada, is called the "Rock Candy Mine". The mine was developed in the 1920s and is noted for its colorful fluorite and borite crystals. As you'll notice above, the BC item mis-spelled barite as "borite".? I've just now logged in to Wikipedia and corrected this. Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: Tim Fisher To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 8:27 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid I have been thinking of booking Bob Jackson's Rock Candy mine trip (Grand Forks, BC) for a few years now, so out of curiosity, is the fluorite from there typically coated with quartz? Would I need this stuff to clean it if I did collect there?? ? Interesting, but irrelevant: The mine is on Big Rock Candy Mountain, those of you who have seen the the Coen Bros' "O Brother Where Art Thou" recognize the song by famous hobo Harry McClintock (if you were paying attention lol) which he recorded in 1928 and had been singing since 1897 according to Wiki. I just answered my own question about which came first, the mountain or the song, (thanks Wiki lol), since the mine was developed in the 1920s, so the miners obviously were familiar with the song. I love the references to cigarette trees, streams of alcohol, lake of whiskey, rubber-toothed bulldogs, the tin jail, etc., that greet presumably deceased hobos in the song. And "where they hung the guy that invented work" is one of my all time favorite song lyrics :)? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From hilmarandheidi at telus.net Wed Dec 26 11:26:01 2007 From: hilmarandheidi at telus.net (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Wed Dec 26 11:26:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <200712261530.lBQFUAw4011020@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <000b01c8463f$3d46e740$b7d4b5c0$@dillen@skynet.be> <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <200712261530.lBQFUAw4011020@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________ On 2007.Dec.26., at 7:27, Tim Fisher wrote: > I have been thinking of booking Bob Jackson's Rock Candy mine trip > (Grand Forks, BC) for a few years now, so out of curiosity, > is the fluorite from there typically coated with quartz? Would I > need this stuff to clean it if I did collect there? ________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________ NO, you would not have to clean it. You just pick up the fluorite (and barite) that does not have quartz on it. And there is plenty of that. I have been there twice. On the other hand you can find plates of small quartz crystals on fluorite matrix, drusy quartz on fluorite, and even finer, almost powdery quartz sprinkling, which looks like tiny snow blotches on fluorite. These are really pretty. Hilmar Krocke Vancouver, BC From rpr at heidelberg.edu Wed Dec 26 12:22:43 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Wed Dec 26 12:22:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've just been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion to notice that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going downhill pretty fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron sulfate, with an increase in volume, tears the specimens apart. I know that one remedy is to keep the humidity low, but once the attack is underway, something more needs to be done. I hate to soak the specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I guess I have to. Does anyone have experience with trying to stop this process? How do you know when you've got the bad stuff soaked out? Is it a good idea to use baking soda or washing soda to neutralize the pH - or just gobs of water? How do you get the specimens good and dry after this treatment? Here's the biggie - does anybody have any experience with trying to create an environmental chamber, and what's the practical environment? I'm not sure I can see trying to build a nitrogen chamber. One can get oxygen scavengers, including some that also reduce humidity. Apparently mylar bags with an aluminum foil interlayer are rather good containers that allow only minimal diffusion of oxygen though the bag - but you can't see the specimens! Companies that sell oxygen scavengers warn against using them in rigid containers like museum cases, because when the oxygen is scavenged, 20% of the air is gone and the resulting partial vacuum can cause a museum case to implode! If not, it pulls air with more oxygen in through any cracks that are present. It's interesting that pyrite often is found in clay within inches of the surface environment, soaking wet, under water, but out of contact with oxygen, where it has been for perhaps millions of years. Take it out, put it on the shelf where it's fairly dry, and it's dust within 10 years! I'd like to be able to extend that life expectancy to 100 years or so - without burying my specimens in the mud... Anyone with experience fighting this disease (or related activities such as conservation of antiquities), please chime in! Pete Richards From pmodreski at aol.com Wed Dec 26 12:48:19 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 26 12:48:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> Pete, you may (or not) be familiar with this work--and probably most others are not--but?research is currently being?done about how growth of microorganisms contributes to or causes the "decay" of some sulfide mineral specimens.? Here's a link to an article published about this (only the abstract is online) by Mike Spilde (UNM), P.J. Boston (New Mexico Tech) and Carl Francis (Harvard), http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V66-4KPNB29-13H&_user=696292&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000038819&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=696292&md5=c95a10e3bbfbb32ec6a1b2831fb09faa Mike gave a talk about this at the New Mexico Mineral Symposium last month.? Their work has been mainly about copper sulfides (chalcocite and bornite), but it may be yet to be determined what role this may play in other sulfides.? So, sterilizing the specimens (bleach?) as well as just plain cleaning, and then not handling them,?may be something that helps prevent decomposition.? You might want to look at their complete paper in 2006 Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta. Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: R. Peter Richards To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 1:22 pm Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've just been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion to notice that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going downhill pretty fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron sulfate, with an increase in volume, tears the specimens apart. I know that one remedy is to keep the humidity low, but once the attack is underway, something more needs to be done. I hate to soak the specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I guess I have to. Does anyone have experience with trying to stop this process? How do you know when you've got the bad stuff soaked out? Is it a good idea to use baking soda or washing soda to neutralize the pH - or just gobs of water? How do you get the specimens good and dry after this treatment? Here's the biggie - does anybody have any experience with trying to create an environmental chamber, and what's the practical environment? I'm not sure I can see trying to build a nitrogen chamber. One can get oxygen scavengers, including some that also reduce humidity. Apparently mylar bags with an aluminum foil interlayer are rather good containers that allow only minimal diffusion of oxygen though the bag - but you can't see the specimens! Companies that sell oxygen scavengers warn against using them in rigid containers like museum cases, because when the oxygen is scavenged, 20% of the air is gone and the resulting partial vacuum can cause a museum case to implode! If not, it pulls air with more oxygen in through any cracks that are present.? ? It's interesting that pyrite often is found in clay within inches of the surface environment, soaking wet, under water, but out of contact with oxygen, where it has been for perhaps millions of years. Take it out, put it on the shelf where it's fairly dry, and it's dust within 10 years! I'd like to be able to extend that life expectancy to 100 years or so - without burying my specimens in the mud...? ? Anyone with experience fighting this disease (or related activities such as conservation of antiquities), please chime in!? ? Pete Richards? --_______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From OnyxCollector at aol.com Wed Dec 26 13:30:57 2007 From: OnyxCollector at aol.com (OnyxCollector@aol.com) Date: Wed Dec 26 13:31:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease Message-ID: Don't put it in Iron Out like I did once..... the whole specimen crumbled apart. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Dec 26 13:59:18 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Dec 26 13:58:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4772CEB6.4020601@verizon.net> OnyxCollector@aol.com wrote: > Don't put it in Iron Out like I did once..... the whole specimen crumbled > apart. Yikes! It definitely got all the iron out! Pete, I've always used sudsy ammonia to clean them, soak them in distilled water, then oven-dry at VERY low heat. I've only had to do that a few times. Funny how some pyrite disintegrates and some never does... I know this has been discussed before... I think there have also been articles on the subject over the years, in venues like Rocks & Minerals and Mineralogical Record perhaps? Anyone remember those huge, lustrous, perfect pyrite cubes that were coming out of a locality in Spain a few years ago? I got one or two of them, since they were "must have" specimens for the species. I forget the exact locality, but the last time I checked mine, they were still in perfect shape. But I have seen at leat two pyrites, owned by other people, that turned to dust over time and the labels and boxes were eaten away. Really. The iron sulfides from the famous amber locality, Sayreville, NJ, are notorious for disintegrating very soon upon collecting them. They have been in a wet, acidic solution for ages, and taking them out allows the decay process to start. Fortunately, they are not very pretty anyway, and most people are just after either the amber or the preserved plant materials. best, Don From Ted at crystalgems.com Wed Dec 26 13:58:24 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Wed Dec 26 13:58:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Paleo-too close (still off topic) In-Reply-To: <8CA160433A70F4E-D3C-1D16@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> References: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000701c847eb$34454260$6401a8c0@astound.net> <8CA160433A70F4E-D3C-1D16@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c8480a$6ff10b40$0400a8c0@LaptopLand1> Well, They tried to feed charter members to the sharks in New Orleans a few years back. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2002/08/19/editorial3.html Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of pmodreski@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:28 PM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Paleo-too close (no longer OT) Just think how potentially dangerous the zoos would be if we still had sabre-tooth cats, mammoths, cave bears, and dire wolves around; not to mention of course, allosaurs and tyrannosaurs and velociraptors--those would REALLY make a zoo a high risk zone!? (hmmm, seems like someone may have made a movie or two along that theme...). And for that matter, our aquarium displays are pretty tame and safe now (people rarely fall into the shark tank--and I don't know if any aquaria keep Great Whites),?but let's be glad that they don't try to stock them with Megalodon, or mosasaurs and plesiosaurs (Tylosaurus and friends), or the giant Cretaceous crocodilians (like Deinosuchus)! Pete -----Original Message----- From: jaybates To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 11:14 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) My daughter Emily was here on last Thanksgiving with her two daughters and visited the SF zoo. She dreamt of being chased by a tiger last night without knowing about the latest tiger escape. I have a friend that used to work at the zoo who said that animals escaped there more than the public was aware. The past president of our club was in charge of the big cats when the keeper was mauled. He is still dealing with that episode. I hope he is not still involved with the big cats. Too bad they didn't destroy that cat after the mauling. Of course the animal lovers probably would have raised bloody hell if they had. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Goldstein To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 9:41 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Too close (OT) ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 26 14:07:13 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 26 14:04:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <4772CFFD.6BED@Tomaszewski.net> Glenn Wimpee wrote: > The black smoker specimen requires a bit of explanation please. How did you come by that Kreigh? Glenn, I'm always looking for new minerals to add to my systematic collection. The specimen I found on John Betts' website listed Birnessite, Buserite, and Vernadite (all missing from my collection), and a locality I could not pass up (Tenpo Seamount, 2200 meter depth, Nishi Shichito Ridge, Izu Bonin Archaeal, Pacific Ocean). Kreigh From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Dec 26 15:03:46 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Dec 26 15:03:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Paleo-too close (no longer OT) In-Reply-To: <8CA160433A70F4E-D3C-1D16@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> References: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000701c847eb$34454260$6401a8c0@astound.net> <8CA160433A70F4E-D3C-1D16@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c84813$92021e50$6501a8c0@AxelHP> Pete wrote > Just think how potentially dangerous the zoos would be if we > still had sabre-tooth cats, mammoths, cave bears, and dire > wolves around; not to mention of course, allosaurs and > tyrannosaurs and velociraptors--those would REALLY make a zoo > a high risk zone!? (hmmm, seems like someone may have made a > movie or two along that theme...). And all the coprolites in our collections would be fresh, soft and smelly because the beast that produce them would be alive instead of petrified... Ding dung... Christmas bells are ringing and all that. Cheers Axel From efkern at earthlink.net Wed Dec 26 15:49:00 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Wed Dec 26 15:49:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Silicon metal vs Silica / attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net><4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002e01c84819$e3dfb3d0$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> The semiconductor industry doesn't use quartz, but the electronics industry does, to make frequency selective resonators (known as 'crystals' in the trade) and frequency filters. I used to work for the Collins-Rockwell facility in Calif., in the 1970's that did this. They bought the lab grown quartz crystals from a firm named Hoffman. The quartz crystals were lab grown in electrically heated pressure vessels at roughly 800 C. temperature. The raw silica for the growth medium was dissolved in concentrated sodium hydroxide, as Bryan Kramer (I think it was Bryan) said. Nasty stuff! Ultra pure silicon metal is used to make semiconductors (transistors, diodes and integrated circuits), and solar panels. I don't know how the metallic silicon is separated out of SiO2, perhaps there are intermediate steps. After the raw silicon metal is extracted it goes through a "zone melt" refining process in a vacuum chamber several times, where all of the impurities migrate to one end of the silicon boule. Cheers, Erich Kern Murrieta, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: DonH To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid Lanny wrote: > Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not > silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in > dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). But where do they get the silicon? I think there are quartz mines with relatively pure quartz used for semiconductors. I can't think of too many ways besides acids to get the silicon isolated (then again I'm not a chemist). Best, Don -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockcurrier at cs.com Wed Dec 26 17:10:17 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Wed Dec 26 17:07:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse References: <200712262304.lBQN485K008774@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <00e901c84825$3ebc8070$6901a8c0@rock3> Andy Sicree said: I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as in encrustations without use of hydrofluoric acid. Andy, Exactly what kind of specimen are you trying to clean? What is the quartz encrustation on? If you want to use chemical means to remove the quartz, you may or may not be able to do it without damaging the mineral the quartz is growing on. If the mineral it is on can withstand HF acid you may be able to get away by using ammonium bifluoride slightly acidified, however if it is a thick encrustation you will really have only the option of concentrated HF or mechanical means to remove it. But it all depends on exactly what it the nature of the quartz and what it is growing on. Rock From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 26 18:08:39 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 26 18:06:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Silicon metal vs Silica / attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net><4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> <002e01c84819$e3dfb3d0$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <47730871.44C9@Tomaszewski.net> The semiconductor industry uses silicon dioxide as an insulator in fabricating chips. HF is most commonly used to manipulate the silicon dioxide. Quartz and Carbon are heated together to to make the raw Silicon (giving off CO and CO2). Purification by zone melt used to be used, but converting Silicon to Trichlorosilane gas and back to Silicon is more commonly used today. Kreigh Erich Kern wrote: > > The semiconductor industry doesn't use quartz, but the electronics industry does, to make frequency selective resonators (known as 'crystals' in the trade) and frequency filters. I used to work for the Collins-Rockwell facility in Calif., in the 1970's that did this. They bought the lab grown quartz crystals from a firm named Hoffman. The quartz crystals were lab grown in electrically heated pressure vessels at roughly 800 C. temperature. The raw silica for the growth medium was dissolved in con > > Ultra pure silicon metal is used to make semiconductors (transistors, diodes and integrated circuits), and solar panels. I don't know how the metallic silicon is separated out of SiO2, perhaps there are intermediate steps. After the raw silicon metal is extracted it goes through a "zone melt" refining process in a vacuum chamber several times, where all of the impurities migrate to one end of the silicon boule. > > Cheers, > Erich Kern > Murrieta, CA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: DonH > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:02 AM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > Lanny wrote: > > > Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not > > silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in > > dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). > > But where do they get the silicon? I think there are quartz mines with > relatively pure quartz used for semiconductors. I can't think of too > many ways besides acids to get the silicon isolated (then again I'm not > a chemist). > > Best, > Don > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 26 18:28:52 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 26 18:25:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse References: <200712262304.lBQN485K008774@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <00e901c84825$3ebc8070$6901a8c0@rock3> Message-ID: <47730D2B.4645@Tomaszewski.net> Quartz is marginally soluable in water (0.12g per liter), so you could rinse it with a LOT of hot water. ;-} Kreigh Rock Currier wrote: > > Andy Sicree said: > > I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as in > encrustations without use of hydrofluoric acid. > > Andy, Exactly what kind of specimen are you trying to clean? What is the > quartz encrustation on? If you want to use chemical means to remove the > quartz, you may or may not be able to do it without damaging the mineral the > quartz is growing on. If the mineral it is on can withstand HF acid you may > be able to get away by using ammonium bifluoride slightly acidified, however > if it is a thick encrustation you will really have only the option of > concentrated HF or mechanical means to remove it. But it all depends on > exactly what it the nature of the quartz and what it is growing on. > > Rock > From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Dec 26 18:42:26 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Dec 26 18:42:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse In-Reply-To: <47730D2B.4645@Tomaszewski.net> References: <200712262304.lBQN485K008774@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <00e901c84825$3ebc8070$6901a8c0@rock3> <47730D2B.4645@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: I suspect one might have to consider the rate of reaction in that calculation, maybe if you put a chunk of quartz in a vat of water back in the Permian it may have achieved equilibrium by now..... BK On Dec 26, 2007 9:28 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Quartz is marginally soluable in water (0.12g per liter), so you could > rinse it with a LOT of hot water. ;-} > > Kreigh > > > > Rock Currier wrote: > > > > Andy Sicree said: > > > > I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as > in > > encrustations without use of hydrofluoric acid. > > > > Andy, Exactly what kind of specimen are you trying to clean? What is the > > quartz encrustation on? If you want to use chemical means to remove the > > quartz, you may or may not be able to do it without damaging the mineral > the > > quartz is growing on. If the mineral it is on can withstand HF acid you > may > > be able to get away by using ammonium bifluoride slightly acidified, > however > > if it is a thick encrustation you will really have only the option of > > concentrated HF or mechanical means to remove it. But it all depends on > > exactly what it the nature of the quartz and what it is growing on. > > > > Rock > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sicree at verizon.net Wed Dec 26 20:18:15 2007 From: sicree at verizon.net (Sicree, Andrew, Ph.D.) Date: Wed Dec 26 20:00:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz druse Message-ID: Rock: I'm trying to remove silica that surrounds a sulfide mineral, but I can't use HF... Andy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/mixed text/plain (text body -- kept) application/ms-tnef --- From ajs at frii.com Wed Dec 26 20:12:41 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Wed Dec 26 20:12:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse In-Reply-To: <47730D2B.4645@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <20071227041241.B1B4C1CC35@io.frii.com> > Quartz is marginally soluable in water (0.12g per liter), so you could > rinse it with a LOT of hot water. ;-} Interesting. First time I've heard a number. Hmm... How hot? At 0.12 g/l, a small (1000 l) hot tub could dissolve 12 g... Hmm... What would it do to skin after that? :-) Alan Silverstein From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 26 20:49:54 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 26 20:49:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse References: <200712262304.lBQN485K008774@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <00e901c84825$3ebc8070$6901a8c0@rock3> <47730D2B.4645@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <47732EE4.5DE4@Tomaszewski.net> Bryan, Schulz, White, and Vivit measured the surface weathering rate of quartz 'in the wild' at 4.92 X 10^-15 mol m^-2 s^-1 at 22 C with a 7.1 year residence time for the water. This is consistent with published experimental values. If I did the math right, that comes out to 6,337,617 years per gram of quartz removed from each square cm, which works out to roughly 3.7 mm in depth; Miocene. Nature often cheats and buries the water deep underground so that high temperature and pressure can be applied to greatly improve the rate of dissolution (and deposition of quartz as it nears surface conditions). Kreigh J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > I suspect one might have to consider the rate of reaction in that > calculation, maybe if you put a chunk of quartz in a vat of water back in > the Permian it may have achieved equilibrium by now..... > > BK > > On Dec 26, 2007 9:28 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > > Quartz is marginally soluable in water (0.12g per liter), so you could > > rinse it with a LOT of hot water. ;-} > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > Rock Currier wrote: > > > > > > Andy Sicree said: > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz (such as > > in > > > encrustations without use of hydrofluoric acid. > > > > > > Andy, Exactly what kind of specimen are you trying to clean? What is the > > > quartz encrustation on? If you want to use chemical means to remove the > > > quartz, you may or may not be able to do it without damaging the mineral > > the > > > quartz is growing on. If the mineral it is on can withstand HF acid you > > may > > > be able to get away by using ammonium bifluoride slightly acidified, > > however > > > if it is a thick encrustation you will really have only the option of > > > concentrated HF or mechanical means to remove it. But it all depends on > > > exactly what it the nature of the quartz and what it is growing on. > > > > > > Rock > > > > > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Dec 26 21:22:47 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Dec 26 21:22:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse References: <20071227041241.B1B4C1CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <47733694.5B65@Tomaszewski.net> Alan, "STP" conditions. Most surface water is already near saturation. Increasing water temperature 15% usually raises the soluability of quartz by a factor of 4 (according to most of the papers I have seen). Skin tends to wrinkle on extended exposure to water, hot or not; hot tubs just make it happen faster. Kreigh Alan Silverstein wrote: > > > Quartz is marginally soluable in water (0.12g per liter), so you could > > rinse it with a LOT of hot water. ;-} > > Interesting. First time I've heard a number. Hmm... How hot? At 0.12 > g/l, a small (1000 l) hot tub could dissolve 12 g... Hmm... > > What would it do to skin after that? :-) > > Alan Silverstein > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 05:35:28 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Dec 27 05:36:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz Druse In-Reply-To: <47732EE4.5DE4@Tomaszewski.net> References: <200712262304.lBQN485K008774@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <00e901c84825$3ebc8070$6901a8c0@rock3> <47730D2B.4645@Tomaszewski.net> <47732EE4.5DE4@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: It's obvious the rate had to be very slow or we'd see quartz pebbles dissolve in creek beds. BK On Dec 26, 2007 11:49 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > Bryan, > > Schulz, White, and Vivit measured the surface weathering rate of quartz > 'in the wild' at 4.92 X 10^-15 mol m^-2 s^-1 at 22 C with a 7.1 year > residence time for the water. This is consistent with published > experimental values. > > If I did the math right, that comes out to 6,337,617 years per gram of > quartz removed from each square cm, which works out to roughly 3.7 mm in > depth; Miocene. > > Nature often cheats and buries the water deep underground so that high > temperature and pressure can be applied to greatly improve the rate of > dissolution (and deposition of quartz as it nears surface conditions). > > Kreigh > > > > J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > > I suspect one might have to consider the rate of reaction in that > > calculation, maybe if you put a chunk of quartz in a vat of water back > in > > the Permian it may have achieved equilibrium by now..... > > > > BK > > > > On Dec 26, 2007 9:28 PM, Kreigh Tomaszewski > wrote: > > > > > Quartz is marginally soluable in water (0.12g per liter), so you could > > > rinse it with a LOT of hot water. ;-} > > > > > > Kreigh > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock Currier wrote: > > > > > > > > Andy Sicree said: > > > > > > > > I was wondering if anyone knew of any ways to get rid of quartz > (such as > > > in > > > > encrustations without use of hydrofluoric acid. > > > > > > > > Andy, Exactly what kind of specimen are you trying to clean? What is > the > > > > quartz encrustation on? If you want to use chemical means to remove > the > > > > quartz, you may or may not be able to do it without damaging the > mineral > > > the > > > > quartz is growing on. If the mineral it is on can withstand HF acid > you > > > may > > > > be able to get away by using ammonium bifluoride slightly acidified, > > > however > > > > if it is a thick encrustation you will really have only the option > of > > > > concentrated HF or mechanical means to remove it. But it all depends > on > > > > exactly what it the nature of the quartz and what it is growing on. > > > > > > > > Rock > > > > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 05:45:05 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Dec 27 05:45:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removing quartz druse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That sounds like a tough proposition. The sulfide I assume is softer than the silicate, so that makes mechanical removable more difficult. But unless someone knows of some magic reagent, a grinder with a tungsten carbide or diamond burr may be the only way you can do it. BK On Dec 26, 2007 11:18 PM, Sicree, Andrew, Ph.D. wrote: > Rock: > > I'm trying to remove silica that surrounds a > sulfide mineral, but I can't use HF... > > Andy > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > Andrew A. Sicree, Ph.D. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/mixed > text/plain (text body -- kept) > application/ms-tnef > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Thu Dec 27 06:24:53 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Thu Dec 27 06:24:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the reference, Pete. I've heard of the bacterial mediation theory in the past, and read mixed opinions about how important it is. Even tried treating a decaying pyritized ammonite with tetracycline once - it turned black but I'm not sure the treatment did any good.... Pete Richards On Dec 26, 2007, at 3:48 PM, pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > Pete, you may (or not) be familiar with this work--and probably > most others are not--but?research is currently being?done about how > growth of microorganisms contributes to or causes the "decay" of > some sulfide mineral specimens.? Here's a link to an article > published about this (only the abstract is online) by Mike Spilde > (UNM), P.J. Boston (New Mexico Tech) and Carl Francis (Harvard), > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science? > _ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V66-4KPNB29-13H&_user=696292&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig > =search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000038819&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_user > id=696292&md5=c95a10e3bbfbb32ec6a1b2831fb09faa > Mike gave a talk about this at the New Mexico Mineral Symposium > last month.? Their work has been mainly about copper sulfides > (chalcocite and bornite), but it may be yet to be determined what > role this may play in other sulfides.? So, sterilizing the > specimens (bleach?) as well as just plain cleaning, and then not > handling them,?may be something that helps prevent decomposition.? > You might want to look at their complete paper in 2006 Geochimica > et Cosmochimica Acta. > > Pete Modreski > > -----Original Message----- > From: R. Peter Richards > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 1:22 pm > Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > > I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've > just been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had > occasion to notice that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens > are going downhill pretty fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of > iron sulfate, with an increase in volume, tears the specimens > apart. I know that one remedy is to keep the humidity low, but once > the attack is underway, something more needs to be done. I hate to > soak the specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I guess I have > to. Does anyone have experience with trying to stop this process? > How do you know when you've got the bad stuff soaked out? Is it a > good idea to use baking soda or washing soda to neutralize the pH - > or just gobs of water? How do you get the specimens good and dry > after this treatment? Here's the biggie - does anybody have any > experience with trying to create an environmental chamber, and > what's the practical environment? I'm not sure I can see trying to > build a! > > nitrogen chamber. One can get oxygen scavengers, including some > that also reduce humidity. Apparently mylar bags with an aluminum > foil interlayer are rather good containers that allow only minimal > diffusion of oxygen though the bag - but you can't see the > specimens! Companies that sell oxygen scavengers warn against using > them in rigid containers like museum cases, because when the oxygen > is scavenged, 20% of the air is gone and the resulting partial > vacuum can cause a museum case to implode! If not, it pulls air > with more oxygen in through any cracks that are present.? > ? > It's interesting that pyrite often is found in clay within inches > of the surface environment, soaking wet, under water, but out of > contact with oxygen, where it has been for perhaps millions of > years. Take it out, put it on the shelf where it's fairly dry, and > it's dust within 10 years! I'd like to be able to extend that life > expectancy to 100 years or so - without burying my specimens in the > mud...? > ? > Anyone with experience fighting this disease (or related activities > such as conservation of antiquities), please chime in!? > ? > Pete Richards? > --_______________________________________________? > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? > Subscription Services:? > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > __ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http:// > webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Thu Dec 27 06:34:38 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Thu Dec 27 06:34:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <4772CEB6.4020601@verizon.net> References: <4772CEB6.4020601@verizon.net> Message-ID: There undoubtedly are a number of factors which influence what specimens decay and what ones don't. Certainly one factor is grain size - the process usually seems to get started first in the fine- grained sulfide matrix on which the larger crystals sit, and the larger crystals often get split by expansion of the fine-grained stuff, but they themselves don't seem to have the "disease". Single large crystals like those from Spain may have the best chance of a long life unless something else dooms them. In my experience, specimens with mixes of marcasite and pyrite tend to be more vulnerable than just pyrite. Specimens with a calcium carbonate matrix have better life expectancy, because the carbonate keeps the pH from dropping as the sulfide alters. Pete Richards > Funny how some pyrite disintegrates and some never does... I know > this has been discussed before... I think there have also been > articles on the subject over the years, in venues like Rocks & > Minerals and Mineralogical Record perhaps? > > Anyone remember those huge, lustrous, perfect pyrite cubes that > were coming out of a locality in Spain a few years ago? I got one > or two of them, since they were "must have" specimens for the > species. I forget the exact locality, but the last time I checked > mine, they were still in perfect shape. But I have seen at leat > two pyrites, owned by other people, that turned to dust over time > and the labels and boxes were eaten away. Really. > > The iron sulfides from the famous amber locality, Sayreville, NJ, > are notorious for disintegrating very soon upon collecting them. > They have been in a wet, acidic solution for ages, and taking them > out allows the decay process to start. Fortunately, they are not > very pretty anyway, and most people are just after either the amber > or the preserved plant materials. > ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 27 07:06:00 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Thu Dec 27 07:06:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <4772CEB6.4020601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <706116.50939.qm@web34308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There was also a locality in Glen Cove, NY (north shore of Long Island) where pyrite (or was it marcasite?) nodules were found in a clay bed in a bay off Long Island Sound. Depending on the tide, they were under about 2 feet of water and another foot of squishy clay. The conventional wisdom was to keep them under water, which I did. They lasted about 40-50 years that way. Jim DonH wrote: The iron sulfides from the famous amber locality, Sayreville, NJ, are notorious for disintegrating very soon upon collecting them. They have been in a wet, acidic solution for ages, and taking them out allows the decay process to start. Fortunately, they are not very pretty anyway, and most people are just after either the amber or the preserved plant materials. best, Don --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gene at fossilnut.com Thu Dec 27 07:20:10 2007 From: gene at fossilnut.com (gene@fossilnut.com) Date: Thu Dec 27 07:20:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net><4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004401c8489b$f9b971f0$0301a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> Silicon for semi-conductors starts with relatively pure sources of sand or solid silica. The silica is washed and treated to remove impurities but it does not stop there since even parts per trillion impurities these days can be a problem. It used to be only parts per billion but as circuits have gotten smaller and faster, the tolerance for impurities has gone down. Beyond that the silica is dissolved (made into a silane), purified, and chemically fused with a reducing agent (hydrogen) and recrystallized as silicon. Later it gets remelted, doped with equally pure elements such as boron and crystallized under controlled conditions into large single crystal ingots with a specific crystal orientation, since the manufacturing process for the chips cannot tolerate crystal boundaries. When finished a single slice from the crystal makes hundreds or thousands of chips. I suspect there are even more steps but these are the major ones I am aware of. Silica is also precipitated as colloidal silica, and used as a polishing agent for the chips. Gene Hartstein ----- Original Message ----- From: "DonH" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > Lanny wrote: > >> Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not >> silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in >> dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). > > > But where do they get the silicon? I think there are quartz mines with > relatively pure quartz used for semiconductors. I can't think of too many > ways besides acids to get the silicon isolated (then again I'm not a > chemist). > > Best, > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 27 07:44:08 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Thu Dec 27 07:44:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush> Pete: One crude method of keeping the specimen "dry", has been to immerse it in a weak solution of white glue (Elmers) and water, soaking it, and letting it dry. The glue permeates the surface of the slightly porous Marcasite, and prevents the iron compounds from being exposed to air, humidity, etc. while it prevents the specimen from falling apart. Better than coating with acrylics, shellac, or the like, but admittedly, non-aesthetic, and somewhat destructive in it's approach. I haven't tried this myself, but it has been recommended to me. BTW, I have had good Wisconsin Marcasite specimens disintegrate in my damp basement, while Spanish Pyrites, next to them , are unaffected. Larry Rush =================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Peter Richards" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:22 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease >I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've just >been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion to notice >that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going downhill pretty >fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron sulfate, with an increase >in volume, tears the specimens apart. I know that one remedy is to keep >the humidity low, but once the attack is underway, something more needs to >be done. I hate to soak the specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I >guess I have to. Does anyone have experience with trying to stop this >process? From albalmer at att.net Thu Dec 27 08:18:49 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Thu Dec 27 08:19:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Silicon metal vs Silica / attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <002e01c84819$e3dfb3d0$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net><4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> <002e01c84819$e3dfb3d0$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 15:49:00 -0800, "Erich Kern" wrote: > >The semiconductor industry doesn't use quartz, but the electronics industry does, to make frequency selective resonators (known as 'crystals' in the trade) and frequency filters. I used to work for the Collins-Rockwell facility in Calif., in the 1970's that did this. They bought the lab grown quartz crystals from a firm named Hoffman. The quartz crystals were lab grown in electrically heated pressure vessels at roughly 800 C. temperature. The raw silica for the growth medium was dissolved in concentrated sodium hydroxide, as Bryan Kramer (I think it was Bryan) said. Nasty stuff! Motorola made their own. I was involved in supplying and programming the system which controlled the process. About a thirty day batch cycle, as I remember. > >Ultra pure silicon metal is used to make semiconductors (transistors, diodes and integrated circuits), and solar panels. I don't know how the metallic silicon is separated out of SiO2, perhaps there are intermediate steps. After the raw silicon metal is extracted it goes through a "zone melt" refining process in a vacuum chamber several times, where all of the impurities migrate to one end of the silicon boule. One of several methods. I worked in a research lab during the summer of 1958 where we were growing ultra-pure silicon by vapor deposition from silicon tetrachloride. > >Cheers, >Erich Kern >Murrieta, CA > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: DonH >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors >Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 11:02 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid > > >Lanny wrote: > >> Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not >> silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in >> dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). > > >But where do they get the silicon? I think there are quartz mines with >relatively pure quartz used for semiconductors. I can't think of too >many ways besides acids to get the silicon isolated (then again I'm not >a chemist). > >Best, >Don > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Thu Dec 27 08:41:18 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Thu Dec 27 08:40:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush> Message-ID: <3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> Being a resident of Nipomo, CA I have had a lot of experience with the local Marcasite. At this location one factor in the longevity of the specimen is the quality and quantity of the infused silica in the matrix. I have found that by polishing certain specimens with a a high gloss polish it fuses the surface with silica and causes it to be protected. Other specimens seem to quickly disintegrate no matter how polished it is. This tells me there was insufficient silica to protect the Marcasite. I have tried many approaches in an attempt to save a sample but most of them failed. My best success so far has been to pack the sample inside a closed case with desiccant packages which seems to make the sample last a lot longer. I have found that once the decay starts there's not much you can do to salvage it. In our locale the product of the decay process involves Sulfuric Acid which is formed within the sample due to moisture in the air. Just some of my observations. Wes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rush" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 7:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > Pete: One crude method of keeping the specimen "dry", has been to immerse > it in a weak solution of white glue (Elmers) and water, soaking it, and > letting it dry. The glue permeates the surface of the slightly porous > Marcasite, and prevents the iron compounds from being exposed to air, > humidity, etc. while it prevents the specimen from falling apart. Better > than coating with acrylics, shellac, or the like, but admittedly, > non-aesthetic, and somewhat destructive in it's approach. I haven't tried > this myself, but it has been recommended to me. > > BTW, I have had good Wisconsin Marcasite specimens disintegrate in my damp > basement, while Spanish Pyrites, next to them , are unaffected. > > Larry Rush > > =================================== > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "R. Peter Richards" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 3:22 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > >>I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've just >>been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion to notice >>that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going downhill pretty >>fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron sulfate, with an increase >>in volume, tears the specimens apart. I know that one remedy is to keep >>the humidity low, but once the attack is underway, something more needs >>to be done. I hate to soak the specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but >>I guess I have to. Does anyone have experience with trying to stop this >>process? > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Thu Dec 27 08:48:18 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Thu Dec 27 08:48:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush> Message-ID: <000901c848a8$4a287490$2101a8c0@sterling88d31e> I've recently heard of a similar method, but haven't tried it yet. It involves putting pyrite specimens in an oven and turning the oven to its lowest setting, generally 200 degrees F. The hot air will drive off any absorbed moisture. Meanwhile gently melt a big block of paraffin on the stove. Take the pyrites out of the oven and immerse them in the paraffin. Then drain, place the paraffin-soaked pyrites on a cookie sheet, put them in the oven again, and turn the heat off so the temperature can gently decline. When cool the specimens should have drained all the excess paraffin. The idea is the same as the glue, of course, but since Elmer's is mildly acidic the paraffin may work better. Also this method eliminates immersing the specimen in a hydrous solution, and water is always the enemy when it comes to sulfides. I repeat, however, that I have never tried this myself, so if anyone out there has, or will, please let us know the results. Cheers- Earl ------------------------------------- Dr. Earl R. Verbeek Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum P: 973-209-7212 F: 973-209-8505 E: shmm@ptd.net -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rush Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 10:44 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease Pete: One crude method of keeping the specimen "dry", has been to immerse it in a weak solution of white glue (Elmers) and water, soaking it, and letting it dry. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rocknate at gmail.com Thu Dec 27 09:09:25 2007 From: rocknate at gmail.com (Nathan Martin) Date: Thu Dec 27 09:09:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock Candy Mine Trips (was: attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid) Message-ID: Hilmar & others, There is still snow in my yard here in New England as the year winds down so I'm dreaming about next year's collecting adventures. I'm interested in finding out what experiences list members may have had on Bob Jackson's Rock Candy Mine trips. I may get out to the Idaho panhandle again this summer on business and I've often thought about trying to work in a side trip to the mine while I'm out there (fluorite associations is one of my special interests). I have read the material on his website and my impression is that the "normal" trips offer only very limited collecting time and are more likely to yield "pretty" fluorite pieces than the well-crystallized fluorite specimens that I am interested in. On the other hand the "vug" collecting trip sounds fabulous but pricey. I'd appreciate learning about anyone's experiences on either the regular or "vug" trips. Thanks in advance for any information you can provide, Nate Martin Lexington, MA On Dec 26, 2007 2:26 PM, Hilmar Krocke wrote: > ________________________________________________________________________ > _____________________________ > On 2007.Dec.26., at 7:27, Tim Fisher wrote: > > > I have been thinking of booking Bob Jackson's Rock Candy mine trip > > (Grand Forks, BC) for a few years now, so out of curiosity, > > is the fluorite from there typically coated with quartz? Would I > > need this stuff to clean it if I did collect there? > ________________________________________________________________________ > _____________________________ > > NO, you would not have to clean it. > You just pick up the fluorite (and barite) that does not have quartz > on it. > And there is plenty of that. I have been there twice. > On the other hand you can find plates of small quartz crystals on > fluorite matrix, > drusy quartz on fluorite, and even finer, almost powdery quartz > sprinkling, > which looks like tiny snow blotches on fluorite. These are really > pretty. > > Hilmar Krocke > Vancouver, BC > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Dec 27 09:24:55 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 27 09:25:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush> <3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> Message-ID: <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Well, that was something new to read about, marcasite from Nipomo, CA--never heard of it or seen it before.? I just googled? Google-Images and found exactly 8?"hits" for?Nipomo - California - marcasite, only?one of which actually shows a?picture of it (well, two show the same picture).? This looks neat and quite interesting--marcasite enclosed in agate. One of the hits was to?the 1943 table of contents of Rocks & Minerals magazine, presumably there's an article buried in there about Nipomo, but my quick browse of the year's table of contents that comes up, does not catch my eye of finding where it is. [OT digression on searching online, don't you hate it when that happens, you "google" something and a hit that you get gives you a long list (sometimes a long long long list) of articles or items from some source, "somewhere" within which must be the "hit" that it found, but no clue where.? That's second most annoying, the first is when the hit you get is to an article that you can only access if you pay for it.] Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: Wes Lingerfelt To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 9:41 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease Being a resident of Nipomo, CA I have had a lot of experience with the local Marcasite. At this location one factor in the longevity of the specimen is the quality and quantity of the infused silica in the matrix. I have found that by polishing certain specimens with a a high gloss polish it fuses the surface with silica and causes it to be protected. Other specimens seem to quickly disintegrate no matter how polished it is. This tells me there was insufficient silica to protect the Marcasite. I have tried many approaches in an attempt to save a sample but most of them failed. My best success so far has been to pack the sample inside a closed case with desiccant packages which seems to make the sample last a lot longer. I have found that once the decay starts there's not much you can do to salvage it. In our locale the product of the decay process involves Sulfuric Acid which is formed within the sample due to moisture in the air. Just some of my observations.? Wes? ? .html? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Thu Dec 27 10:22:49 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Thu Dec 27 10:22:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush><3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Sorry Pete! I just assumed everyone had heard about our local treasure of Marcasite. We also have Sagenite in spectacular sprays (some of it is Aragonite or Zeolite or Goethite) in a wide range of colors and sizes. I always thought that Nipomo was world famous. Perhaps a little ego got into my thinking. We have some pictures of both on our website at www.omsinc.org Cheers! Wes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > Well, that was something new to read about, marcasite from Nipomo, > CA--never heard of it or seen it before.? I just googled? Google-Images > and found exactly 8?"hits" for?Nipomo - California - marcasite, only?one > of which actually shows a?picture of it (well, two show the same > picture).? This looks neat and quite interesting--marcasite enclosed in > agate. > > > > One of the hits was to?the 1943 table of contents of Rocks & Minerals > magazine, presumably there's an article buried in there about Nipomo, but > my quick browse of the year's table of contents that comes up, does not > catch my eye of finding where it is. > > [OT digression on searching online, don't you hate it when that happens, > you "google" something and a hit that you get gives you a long list > (sometimes a long long long list) of articles or items from some source, > "somewhere" within which must be the "hit" that it found, but no clue > where.? That's second most annoying, the first is when the hit you get is > to an article that you can only access if you pay for it.] > > Pete Modreski > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Lingerfelt > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 9:41 am > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > > > Being a resident of Nipomo, CA I have had a lot of experience with the > local Marcasite. At this location one factor in the longevity of the > specimen is the quality and quantity of the infused silica in the matrix. > I have found that by polishing certain specimens with a a high gloss > polish it fuses the surface with silica and causes it to be protected. > Other specimens seem to quickly disintegrate no matter how polished it is. > This tells me there was insufficient silica to protect the Marcasite. I > have tried many approaches in an attempt to save a sample but most of them > failed. My best success so far has been to pack the sample inside a closed > case with desiccant packages which seems to make the sample last a lot > longer. I have found that once the decay starts there's not much you can > do to salvage it. In our locale the product of the decay process involves > Sulfuric Acid which is formed within the sample due to moisture in the > air. Just some of my observations.? > Wes? > ? > .html? > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - > http://webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Thu Dec 27 10:30:21 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Thu Dec 27 10:31:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush><3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6947AA7BE2704081B668B4C1C34D7792@WesLingerfelPC> It's Strange that you only got 8 hits! I googled "Nipomo Marcasite" and got 353 hits. Try again Pete! Wes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > Well, that was something new to read about, marcasite from Nipomo, > CA--never heard of it or seen it before.? I just googled? Google-Images > and found exactly 8?"hits" for?Nipomo - California - marcasite, only?one > of which actually shows a?picture of it (well, two show the same > picture).? This looks neat and quite interesting--marcasite enclosed in > agate. > > > > One of the hits was to?the 1943 table of contents of Rocks & Minerals > magazine, presumably there's an article buried in there about Nipomo, but > my quick browse of the year's table of contents that comes up, does not > catch my eye of finding where it is. > > [OT digression on searching online, don't you hate it when that happens, > you "google" something and a hit that you get gives you a long list > (sometimes a long long long list) of articles or items from some source, > "somewhere" within which must be the "hit" that it found, but no clue > where.? That's second most annoying, the first is when the hit you get is > to an article that you can only access if you pay for it.] > > Pete Modreski > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Lingerfelt > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 9:41 am > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > > > Being a resident of Nipomo, CA I have had a lot of experience with the > local Marcasite. At this location one factor in the longevity of the > specimen is the quality and quantity of the infused silica in the matrix. > I have found that by polishing certain specimens with a a high gloss > polish it fuses the surface with silica and causes it to be protected. > Other specimens seem to quickly disintegrate no matter how polished it is. > This tells me there was insufficient silica to protect the Marcasite. I > have tried many approaches in an attempt to save a sample but most of them > failed. My best success so far has been to pack the sample inside a closed > case with desiccant packages which seems to make the sample last a lot > longer. I have found that once the decay starts there's not much you can > do to salvage it. In our locale the product of the decay process involves > Sulfuric Acid which is formed within the sample due to moisture in the > air. Just some of my observations.? > Wes? > ? > .html? > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - > http://webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Dec 27 10:58:16 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Dec 27 10:58:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease - Nipomo marcasite In-Reply-To: <6947AA7BE2704081B668B4C1C34D7792@WesLingerfelPC> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush><3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> <6947AA7BE2704081B668B4C1C34D7792@WesLingerfelPC> Message-ID: <8CA16D19294971F-6F4-2494@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> It was because I had?only googled it for Images, Wes. And I'm sure that a lot more people must be familiar with the material--I just wasn't, we are all provincial in our own ways, I'm sure.? But now I've learned about it!? I looked at your club's website, and found the pictures of the agate w/marcasite.? Of course, I was also trying to figure out where in California Nipomo is (or for that matter, Orcutt and Santa Maria)--not having had the least clue about that either; but now (with a moment's googling again) I know--on the coast, north of Santa Barbara; like I said, we're very provincial out here on the far edge of the Rocky Mountains... even from the top of Long's Peak, one can't at all even?glimpse the Pacific Ocean, you know. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Wes Lingerfelt To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease It's Strange that you only got 8 hits! I googled "Nipomo Marcasite" and got 353 hits. Try again Pete!? Wes? ----- Original Message ----- From: ? To: ? Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:24 AM? Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease? ? >? > Well, that was something new to read about, marcasite from Nipomo, > CA--never heard of it or seen it before.? I just googled? Google-Images > and found exactly 8?"hits" for?Nipomo - California - marcasite, only?one > of which actually shows a?picture of it (well, two show the same > picture).? This looks neat and quite interesting--marcasite enclosed in > agate.? >? >? >? > One of the hits was to?the 1943 table of contents of Rocks & Minerals > magazine, presumably there's an article buried in there about Nipomo, but > my quick browse of the year's table of contents that comes up, does not > catch my eye of finding where it is.? >? > [OT digression on searching online, don't you hate it when that happens, > you "google" something and a hit that you get gives you a long list > (sometimes a long long long list) of articles or items from some source, > "somewhere" within which must be the "hit" that it found, but no clue > where.? That's second most annoying, the first is when the hit you get is > to an article that you can only access if you pay for it.]? >? > Pete Modreski? >? >? > -----Original Message-----? > From: Wes Lingerfelt ? > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > ? > Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 9:41 am? > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease? >? >? >? > Being a resident of Nipomo, CA I have had a lot of experience with the > local Marcasite. At this location one factor in the longevity of the > specimen is the quality and quantity of the infused silica in the matrix. > I have found that by polishing certain specimens with a a high gloss > polish it fuses the surface with silica and causes it to be protected. > Other specimens seem to quickly disintegrate no matter how polished it is. > This tells me there was insufficient silica to protect the Marcasite. I > have tried many approaches in an attempt to save a sample but most of them > failed. My best success so far has been to pack the sample inside a closed > case with desiccant packages which seems to make the sample last a lot > longer. I have found that once the decay starts there's not much you can > do to salvage it. In our locale the product of the decay process involves > Sulfuric Acid which is formed within the sample due to moisture in the > air. Just some of my observations.?? > Wes ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lanny at lrream.com Thu Dec 27 15:11:55 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Dec 27 15:12:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] attacking quartz without hydrofluoric acid In-Reply-To: <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> References: <002001c846d1$4b964e70$6600a8c0@TheBlackAdder> <4771BC61.9C3@Tomaszewski.net> <4771CF23.1F31@Tomaszewski.net> <4772A557.4040407@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8eb7884eb376fd9c764b01e238822cd2@lrream.com> Yes Don, there are quartz mines. Silicon is made from quartz, generally mined from quartzite or quartz sand. My problem was I lost sight of the big picture and Kreigh's point that quartz has to be dissolved and processed. His message hit me as the often written and wrong comment about the quartz in our computers when its the silicon in the computer chips the writer is talking about (yes there are quartz timing chips). From my perspective the semiconductor industry works with silicon to make chips; another industry, the processors/refiners/smelters work with quartz to make the silicon metal. Like so many others who have commented though, if removing quartz is the problem, at my house it isn't going to be by any method typically used by industry and laboratories to accomplish it. No hot sodium hydroxide or pressurized containers please; which is a big problem. Basically, a druse of quartz crystals and that thin silica scum coating can't be easily removed from the coated minerals. Regards, Lanny On Dec 26, 2007, at 11:02 AM, DonH wrote: > Lanny wrote: > >> Doesn't the semiconductor industry work with silicon, the metal, not >> silica, the oxide? There must be a whole world of difference in >> dissolving silicon as compared to dissolving silica (quartz). > > > But where do they get the silicon? I think there are quartz mines > with relatively pure quartz used for semiconductors. I can't think of > too many ways besides acids to get the silicon isolated (then again > I'm not a chemist). > > Best, > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From liz.fodi at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 27 16:10:11 2007 From: liz.fodi at utoronto.ca (Liz Fodi) Date: Thu Dec 27 16:10:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush> <3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <47743EE3.9000606@utoronto.ca> Pete I don't know if anyone has looked into this but I wonder if , along with grain size, porosity, presence of free sulphur, one must determine if the specimen actually consists of more than one iron sulphide. If pyrrhotite or framboidal marcasite is present in what appears externally to be a robust pyrite specimen I would expect that any acidic treatment and/or storage in acidic materials could initiate disintegration under the right conditions. My own experience: Once it starts it can only be slowed, not stopped. Liz From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Thu Dec 27 16:43:22 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Thu Dec 27 16:42:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease - Nipomo marcasite In-Reply-To: <8CA16D19294971F-6F4-2494@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <007001c8489f$52050600$0300000a@LarryRush><3FF83964CF734E5988A8E961F4F107B9@WesLingerfelPC> <8CA16C48811EE95-6F4-1FD5@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com><6947AA7BE2704081B668B4C1C34D7792@WesLingerfelPC> <8CA16D19294971F-6F4-2494@FWM-D25.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00CD35598A074CCB85CD365A87487FE8@WesLingerfelPC> Yeah, I know Pete; But I bet you can see the rockets we launch on a clear night from there. Beautiful sight indeed. I plan on putting an 8+ inch Marcasite Sphere up on my website soon just for people to drool over. I don't anticipate anyone would give me my price for it at $15,000.00 That fine with me! Cheers! Wes www.sphereheaven.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 10:58 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease - Nipomo marcasite > It was because I had?only googled it for Images, Wes. > > And I'm sure that a lot more people must be familiar with the material--I > just wasn't, we are all provincial in our own ways, I'm sure.? But now > I've learned about it!? I looked at your club's website, and found the > pictures of the agate w/marcasite.? Of course, I was also trying to figure > out where in California Nipomo is (or for that matter, Orcutt and Santa > Maria)--not having had the least clue about that either; but now (with a > moment's googling again) I know--on the coast, north of Santa Barbara; > like I said, we're very provincial out here on the far edge of the Rocky > Mountains... even from the top of Long's Peak, one can't at all > even?glimpse the Pacific Ocean, you know. > > Pete > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Lingerfelt > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:30 am > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > > It's Strange that you only got 8 hits! I googled "Nipomo Marcasite" and > got 353 hits. Try again Pete!? > Wes? > ----- Original Message ----- From: ? > To: ? > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:24 AM? > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease? > ? >>? >> Well, that was something new to read about, marcasite from Nipomo, > >> CA--never heard of it or seen it before.? I just googled? Google-Images > >> and found exactly 8?"hits" for?Nipomo - California - marcasite, only?one >> > of which actually shows a?picture of it (well, two show the same > >> picture).? This looks neat and quite interesting--marcasite enclosed in > >> agate.? >>? >>? >>? >> One of the hits was to?the 1943 table of contents of Rocks & Minerals > >> magazine, presumably there's an article buried in there about Nipomo, but >> > my quick browse of the year's table of contents that comes up, does not >> > catch my eye of finding where it is.? >>? >> [OT digression on searching online, don't you hate it when that happens, >> > you "google" something and a hit that you get gives you a long list > >> (sometimes a long long long list) of articles or items from some source, >> > "somewhere" within which must be the "hit" that it found, but no clue > >> where.? That's second most annoying, the first is when the hit you get is >> > to an article that you can only access if you pay for it.]? >>? >> Pete Modreski? >>? >>? >> -----Original Message-----? >> From: Wes Lingerfelt ? >> To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > >> ? >> Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 9:41 am? >> Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease? >>? >>? >>? >> Being a resident of Nipomo, CA I have had a lot of experience with the > >> local Marcasite. At this location one factor in the longevity of the > >> specimen is the quality and quantity of the infused silica in the matrix. >> > I have found that by polishing certain specimens with a a high gloss > >> polish it fuses the surface with silica and causes it to be protected. > >> Other specimens seem to quickly disintegrate no matter how polished it >> is. > This tells me there was insufficient silica to protect the >> Marcasite. I > have tried many approaches in an attempt to save a sample >> but most of them > failed. My best success so far has been to pack the >> sample inside a closed > case with desiccant packages which seems to make >> the sample last a lot > longer. I have found that once the decay starts >> there's not much you can > do to salvage it. In our locale the product of >> the decay process involves > Sulfuric Acid which is formed within the >> sample due to moisture in the > air. Just some of my ! > observations.?? >> Wes > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - > http://webmail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From spocksrocks at hotmail.com Thu Dec 27 17:37:35 2007 From: spocksrocks at hotmail.com (Scotts Rock & Gem) Date: Thu Dec 27 17:37:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock Candy Mine Trips (was: attacking quartz withouthydrofluoric acid) References: Message-ID: Dear Nate & list: I went with Bob on one of his "Rockin across the Cascades" trips, which included a stop at the Rock Candy fluorite site. Because it was part of a multi-site ramble, we didn't spend a long time there, but we probably had about 4 hours or so on site. There was no blast so we just picked up "pretty fluorite" chunks from the tailings. Bob did point out a spot on the wall where there was a small fluorite corner, and I collected it, but it was probably only about a 1 or 2 inch piece. There weren't any open pockets to collect crystallized fluorite specimens from so it was just looking around for something that was more green than the rest of the green rock. There was a little white barite mud that had percolated through some parts of the deposit, so some of the chunks that I collected had milk white stripes in them, along with the standard green and light purple zoning. Also, there was some white quartz druze on some of the rock from a particular horizon on the wall. As with most bulk fluorite chunks that I have worked with, the Rock Candy material was more difficult to dry sand than, say, a typical agate. I actually don't think I kept any of the material I collected (the trip I took was about 8 or 9 years ago). Once in a while I see flats of Rock Candy fluorite, but I can't recall ever having seen anything that looked really nice, so it is either all out there in people's collections and not for sale, and/or difficult to collect. I don't think Bob was offering the vug tours when I went, so maybe that would be the way to go. If you're like me, you have to go out there and strike a couple blows on the wall before your curiosity is satisfied. But if I had a choice, I would go to Bob's Spruce Claim and dig there for quartz & pyrite. By the way, Bob's a good guy - honest, hard working, and gentlemanly. Warm Regards - Scott Blair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Martin" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:09 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock Candy Mine Trips (was: attacking quartz withouthydrofluoric acid) > Hilmar & others, > > There is still snow in my yard here in New England as the year winds down > so > I'm dreaming about next year's collecting adventures. > > I'm interested in finding out what experiences list members may have had > on > Bob Jackson's Rock Candy Mine trips. I may get out to the Idaho panhandle > again this summer on business and I've often thought about trying to work > in > a side trip to the mine while I'm out there (fluorite associations is one > of > my special interests). I have read the material on his website and my > impression is that the "normal" trips offer only very limited collecting > time and are more likely to yield "pretty" fluorite pieces than the > well-crystallized fluorite specimens that I am interested in. On the > other > hand the "vug" collecting trip sounds fabulous but pricey. I'd appreciate > learning about anyone's experiences on either the regular or "vug" trips. > > Thanks in advance for any information you can provide, > Nate Martin > Lexington, MA > > On Dec 26, 2007 2:26 PM, Hilmar Krocke wrote: > >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> _____________________________ >> On 2007.Dec.26., at 7:27, Tim Fisher wrote: >> >> > I have been thinking of booking Bob Jackson's Rock Candy mine trip >> > (Grand Forks, BC) for a few years now, so out of curiosity, >> > is the fluorite from there typically coated with quartz? Would I >> > need this stuff to clean it if I did collect there? >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> _____________________________ >> >> NO, you would not have to clean it. >> You just pick up the fluorite (and barite) that does not have quartz >> on it. >> And there is plenty of that. I have been there twice. >> On the other hand you can find plates of small quartz crystals on >> fluorite matrix, >> drusy quartz on fluorite, and even finer, almost powdery quartz >> sprinkling, >> which looks like tiny snow blotches on fluorite. These are really >> pretty. >> >> Hilmar Krocke >> Vancouver, BC >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Dec 27 18:30:43 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Dec 27 18:30:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease References: <4772CEB6.4020601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003c01c848f9$a56b0510$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> >From what I've read (and it hasn't been recently) the primary cause of the decomposition of pyrite is a specific to framboidal crystal form. It does not affect normal crystalline pyrite, although the microscopic framboids can occur in a polycrystalline pyrite where it isn't obvious. (Since framboidal pyrite crystals are only visible with an SEM, they would never be obvious!) I may be mistaken, but do not recall reading anything about marcasite being unstable, but rather mixtures of framboidal pyrite and marcasite. I think that is the case with the Rensselaer Indiana material and perhaps the unstable pyrite "suns" from the Illinois coal mines as well. Most of the decomposing fossils I have seen are thought to be composed of pyrite as well. The pyrite disks from the Devonian New Albany black shale are always unstable, rarely lasting more than a year before dissentegrating. The pyrite crystal clusters in the Silurian Waldron shale seem to be stable. I got some French pyritized ammonites (about 1 - 2 cm dia.) a number of years ago. They started decomposing relatively quickly, so I put them in a medicine bottle completely filled with water. Guess what - they have not decomposed any further since they have been in ordinary tap water! My suggestion is to take at least one specimen and store it in a sealed container of water. It might do okay. Rob Waller (Canadian Museum of Nature) has done a lot of work on pyrite disease. He might be able to help you. Alan G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Peter Richards" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > There undoubtedly are a number of factors which influence what specimens > decay and what ones don't. Certainly one factor is grain size - the > process usually seems to get started first in the fine- grained sulfide > matrix on which the larger crystals sit, and the larger crystals often > get split by expansion of the fine-grained stuff, but they themselves > don't seem to have the "disease". Single large crystals like those from > Spain may have the best chance of a long life unless something else dooms > them. In my experience, specimens with mixes of marcasite and pyrite > tend to be more vulnerable than just pyrite. Specimens with a calcium > carbonate matrix have better life expectancy, because the carbonate keeps > the pH from dropping as the sulfide alters. > > Pete Richards > > >> Funny how some pyrite disintegrates and some never does... I know this >> has been discussed before... I think there have also been articles on >> the subject over the years, in venues like Rocks & Minerals and >> Mineralogical Record perhaps? >> >> Anyone remember those huge, lustrous, perfect pyrite cubes that were >> coming out of a locality in Spain a few years ago? I got one or two of >> them, since they were "must have" specimens for the species. I forget >> the exact locality, but the last time I checked mine, they were still in >> perfect shape. But I have seen at leat two pyrites, owned by other >> people, that turned to dust over time and the labels and boxes were >> eaten away. Really. >> >> The iron sulfides from the famous amber locality, Sayreville, NJ, are >> notorious for disintegrating very soon upon collecting them. They have >> been in a wet, acidic solution for ages, and taking them out allows the >> decay process to start. Fortunately, they are not very pretty anyway, >> and most people are just after either the amber or the preserved plant >> materials. >> > > ___________________________________ > R. Peter Richards > rpr@heidelberg.edu > Morphological crystallographer > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 27 19:44:18 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 27 19:43:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <477470E8.6531@Tomaszewski.net> Sally Shelton, from the San Diego Nautral History Museum, on Pyrite Preservation... http://www.discoveret.org/kgms/feb-01/feb01-9.htm Kreigh R. Peter Richards wrote: > > I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've > just been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion > to notice that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going > downhill pretty fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron > sulfate, with an increase in volume, tears the specimens apart. I > know that one remedy is to keep the humidity low, but once the attack > is underway, something more needs to be done. I hate to soak the > specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I guess I have to. Does > anyone have experience with trying to stop this process? How do you > know when you've got the bad stuff soaked out? Is it a good idea to > use baking soda or washing soda to neutralize the pH - or just gobs > of water? How do you get the specimens good and dry after this > treatment? Here's the biggie - does anybody have any experience with > trying to create an environmental chamber, and what's the practical > environment? I'm not sure I can see trying to build a nitrogen > chamber. One can get oxygen scavengers, including some that also > reduce humidity. Apparently mylar bags with an aluminum foil > interlayer are rather good containers that allow only minimal > diffusion of oxygen though the bag - but you can't see the > specimens! Companies that sell oxygen scavengers warn against using > them in rigid containers like museum cases, because when the oxygen > is scavenged, 20% of the air is gone and the resulting partial vacuum > can cause a museum case to implode! If not, it pulls air with more > oxygen in through any cracks that are present. > > It's interesting that pyrite often is found in clay within inches of > the surface environment, soaking wet, under water, but out of contact > with oxygen, where it has been for perhaps millions of years. Take > it out, put it on the shelf where it's fairly dry, and it's dust > within 10 years! I'd like to be able to extend that life expectancy > to 100 years or so - without burying my specimens in the mud... > > Anyone with experience fighting this disease (or related activities > such as conservation of antiquities), please chime in! > > Pete Richards > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Thu Dec 27 19:44:58 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Thu Dec 27 19:45:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Happy New Year to All!!! In-Reply-To: <000601c84813$92021e50$6501a8c0@AxelHP> References: <014301c847e6$8c5044a0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000701c847eb$34454260$6401a8c0@astound.net> <8CA160433A70F4E-D3C-1D16@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> <000601c84813$92021e50$6501a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: I've always heard coprolite emitted "special" odors during cutting. ROTFL!!! Getting in the New Year's cheer a bit early Axel? Glenn > From: axel.emmermann@pandora.be> To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com> Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Paleo-too close (no longer OT)> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:03:46 +0100> > Pete wrote > > > Just think how potentially dangerous the zoos would be if we > > still had sabre-tooth cats, mammoths, cave bears, and dire > > wolves around; not to mention of course, allosaurs and > > tyrannosaurs and velociraptors--those would REALLY make a zoo > > a high risk zone!? (hmmm, seems like someone may have made a > > movie or two along that theme...). > > And all the coprolites in our collections would be fresh, soft and smelly> because the beast that produce them would be alive instead of petrified... > > Ding dung... Christmas bells are ringing and all that. > > Cheers> Axel _________________________________________________________________ i?m is proud to present Cause Effect, a series about real people making a difference. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/MTV/?source=text_Cause_Effect --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From volgems at icx.net Thu Dec 27 20:10:45 2007 From: volgems at icx.net (John Teague) Date: Thu Dec 27 20:10:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease Message-ID: <3587913.1198815045238.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Kreigh, I think the correct address is: http://www.discoveret.org/kgms/feb-01/feb01-8.htm John Teague Knoxville Gem and Mineral Society Knoxville, Tennessee Volunteer Gems http://www.VolunteerGems.com -----Original Message----- >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >Sent: Dec 27, 2007 10:44 PM >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > >Sally Shelton, from the San Diego Nautral History Museum, on Pyrite >Preservation... > > http://www.discoveret.org/kgms/feb-01/feb01-9.htm > >Kreigh > > > > >R. Peter Richards wrote: >> >> I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've >> just been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion >> to notice that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going >> downhill pretty fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron >> sulfate, with an increase in volume, tears the specimens apart. I >> know that one remedy is to keep the humidity low, but once the attack >> is underway, something more needs to be done. I hate to soak the >> specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I guess I have to. Does >> anyone have experience with trying to stop this process? How do you >> know when you've got the bad stuff soaked out? Is it a good idea to >> use baking soda or washing soda to neutralize the pH - or just gobs >> of water? How do you get the specimens good and dry after this >> treatment? Here's the biggie - does anybody have any experience with >> trying to create an environmental chamber, and what's the practical >> environment? I'm not sure I can see trying to build a nitrogen >> chamber. One can get oxygen scavengers, including some that also >> reduce humidity. Apparently mylar bags with an aluminum foil >> interlayer are rather good containers that allow only minimal >> diffusion of oxygen though the bag - but you can't see the >> specimens! Companies that sell oxygen scavengers warn against using >> them in rigid containers like museum cases, because when the oxygen >> is scavenged, 20% of the air is gone and the resulting partial vacuum >> can cause a museum case to implode! If not, it pulls air with more >> oxygen in through any cracks that are present. >> >> It's interesting that pyrite often is found in clay within inches of >> the surface environment, soaking wet, under water, but out of contact >> with oxygen, where it has been for perhaps millions of years. Take >> it out, put it on the shelf where it's fairly dry, and it's dust >> within 10 years! I'd like to be able to extend that life expectancy >> to 100 years or so - without burying my specimens in the mud... >> >> Anyone with experience fighting this disease (or related activities >> such as conservation of antiquities), please chime in! >> >> Pete Richards >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 27 20:49:18 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 27 20:48:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving Message-ID: <4774801B.677F@Tomaszewski.net> The January 2008 issue of "Scientific American" has an article by John A. Tarduno titled "Hot Spots Unplugged" that shows the hot spot forming Hawaii is moving (south), independent of the Pacific Plate movement. Much of the geology of the (north) western United States is based on the assumption that hot spots, especially the one under Hawaii, are fixed. The world, and geology, has gotten more complicated again. Expect new textbooks. Kreigh From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Dec 27 20:55:22 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Dec 27 20:53:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <3587913.1198815045238.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3587913.1198815045238.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <477481BA.2050005@verizon.net> John Teague wrote: > Kreigh, > > I think the correct address is: > > http://www.discoveret.org/kgms/feb-01/feb01-8.htm Unless of course you collect odd species, in which case, sometimes, the secondary material is melanterite. Just thought I'd add that. http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/sulfates/melanter/melanter.htm best, Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Dec 27 20:57:30 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Dec 27 20:56:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease References: <3587913.1198815045238.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <47748206.79FE@Tomaszewski.net> John, Some days I can't type. Thanks for the correction. Kreigh John Teague wrote: > > Kreigh, > > I think the correct address is: > > http://www.discoveret.org/kgms/feb-01/feb01-8.htm > > John Teague > Knoxville Gem and Mineral Society > Knoxville, Tennessee > > Volunteer Gems > http://www.VolunteerGems.com > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > >Sent: Dec 27, 2007 10:44 PM > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > > >Sally Shelton, from the San Diego Nautral History Museum, on Pyrite > >Preservation... > > > > http://www.discoveret.org/kgms/feb-01/feb01-9.htm > > > >Kreigh > > > > > > > > > >R. Peter Richards wrote: > >> > >> I know this comes up now and again, and here it comes again. I've > >> just been doing some reorganizing in my collection, and had occasion > >> to notice that some of my pyrite and marcasite specimens are going > >> downhill pretty fast. Oxydation leads to the formation of iron > >> sulfate, with an increase in volume, tears the specimens apart. I > >> know that one remedy is to keep the humidity low, but once the attack > >> is underway, something more needs to be done. I hate to soak the > >> specimens to remove the iron sulfate, but I guess I have to. Does > >> anyone have experience with trying to stop this process? How do you > >> know when you've got the bad stuff soaked out? Is it a good idea to > >> use baking soda or washing soda to neutralize the pH - or just gobs > >> of water? How do you get the specimens good and dry after this > >> treatment? Here's the biggie - does anybody have any experience with > >> trying to create an environmental chamber, and what's the practical > >> environment? I'm not sure I can see trying to build a nitrogen > >> chamber. One can get oxygen scavengers, including some that also > >> reduce humidity. Apparently mylar bags with an aluminum foil > >> interlayer are rather good containers that allow only minimal > >> diffusion of oxygen though the bag - but you can't see the > >> specimens! Companies that sell oxygen scavengers warn against using > >> them in rigid containers like museum cases, because when the oxygen > >> is scavenged, 20% of the air is gone and the resulting partial vacuum > >> can cause a museum case to implode! If not, it pulls air with more > >> oxygen in through any cracks that are present. > >> > >> It's interesting that pyrite often is found in clay within inches of > >> the surface environment, soaking wet, under water, but out of contact > >> with oxygen, where it has been for perhaps millions of years. Take > >> it out, put it on the shelf where it's fairly dry, and it's dust > >> within 10 years! I'd like to be able to extend that life expectancy > >> to 100 years or so - without burying my specimens in the mud... > >> > >> Anyone with experience fighting this disease (or related activities > >> such as conservation of antiquities), please chime in! > >> > >> Pete Richards From JWachsmuth at gmx.de Fri Dec 28 02:22:17 2007 From: JWachsmuth at gmx.de (Juergen Wachsmuth) Date: Fri Dec 28 02:24:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4774CE59.D3FE4A0@gmx.de> Hello, tetracycline cannot harm all kinds of bacteria that may exist in / on rocks. Its efficacy does not even cover all bacteria that may cause infections in humans. Moreover, it does not kill bacteria, it prevents bacterial growth as long as it is active. Surviving bacteria will be active afterwards. Therefore I suggest you should choose a desinfecting substance for your purpose. Alkohol 70-80 % could be efficient. Ready to use solutions for desinfecting hands contain additives that make them more powerful, but may leave a residue on the surface of specimens. Other solutions useful for surface desinfection in hospitals are to be diluted by water. Using the concentrated stuff may not be effective. I never tried their usefulness as pyrite is not my main interest. Tetracycline is known to form precipitates with cations like Ca2+. Maybe the reaction with Fe2+/3+ is the reason for the black colour you observed. Just an idea ... Regards, J?rgen Ulm - Germany R. Peter Richards schrieb: > Thanks for the reference, Pete. I've heard of the bacterial > mediation theory in the past, and read mixed opinions about how > important it is. Even tried treating a decaying pyritized ammonite > with tetracycline once - it turned black but I'm not sure the > treatment did any good.... > > Pete Richards From rik.dillen at skynet.be Fri Dec 28 02:50:30 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Fri Dec 28 02:50:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <4774CE59.D3FE4A0@gmx.de> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> <4774CE59.D3FE4A0@gmx.de> Message-ID: <001e01c8493f$77232b60$65698220$@dillen@skynet.be> Some thoughts about "desinfecting" pyrite aggregates before decay : 1) A suitable product to kill any bacteria would be "Neo-Sabenyl" solution (active compound : chlorophene (O-BENZYL-P-CHLOROPHENOL)), which is used to desinfect surgical tools (and parts of the body). This is a non-aggressive product, that penetrates quite well in porosities. 2) I doubt seriously that any solution can reach internal inclusions of framboids in pyrite aggregates or other internal features. I'm wondering if any (non permanent) solution treatment would help. 3) If the cause is bacterial, it should be possible to eliminate the threat by just heating up the sample for a short period to 140?C. 4) I think that more than one mechanism could be responsible, with a possible role for bacteria, relicts (as micro-fluid inclusions ?) of the original acid solution from which the aggregates was formed, traces of sulphates, free sulphur etc.). That makes it so difficult to find one method to cure all cases. My 2 eurocents... Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, ?B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen ? MINERANT 2008? -? 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Juergen Wachsmuth Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:22 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease Hello, tetracycline cannot harm all kinds of bacteria that may exist in / on rocks. Its efficacy does not even cover all bacteria that may cause infections in humans. Moreover, it does not kill bacteria, it prevents bacterial growth as long as it is active. Surviving bacteria will be active afterwards. Therefore I suggest you should choose a desinfecting substance for your purpose. Alkohol 70-80 % could be efficient. Ready to use solutions for desinfecting hands contain additives that make them more powerful, but may leave a residue on the surface of specimens. Other solutions useful for surface desinfection in hospitals are to be diluted by water. Using the concentrated stuff may not be effective. I never tried their usefulness as pyrite is not my main interest. Tetracycline is known to form precipitates with cations like Ca2+. Maybe the reaction with Fe2+/3+ is the reason for the black colour you observed. Just an idea ... Regards, J?rgen Ulm - Germany R. Peter Richards schrieb: > Thanks for the reference, Pete. I've heard of the bacterial > mediation theory in the past, and read mixed opinions about how > important it is. Even tried treating a decaying pyritized ammonite > with tetracycline once - it turned black but I'm not sure the > treatment did any good.... > > Pete Richards -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From betdav97 at aol.com Fri Dec 28 06:19:55 2007 From: betdav97 at aol.com (betdav97@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 28 06:20:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving In-Reply-To: <4774801B.677F@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4774801B.677F@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <8CA1773DAB70B86-4D8-6948@WEBMAIL-MA20.sysops.aol.com> ? There is even a new island forming, it is below the oceans surface, and one day will break through, but I'm not sure what the time line is. D -----Original Message----- From: Kreigh Tomaszewski To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:49 pm Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving The January 2008 issue of "Scientific American" has an article by John A. Tarduno titled "Hot Spots Unplugged" that shows the hot spot forming Hawaii is moving (south), independent of the Pacific Plate movement. Much of the geology of the (north) western United States is based on the assumption that hot spots, especially the one under Hawaii, are fixed. The world, and geology, has gotten more complicated again. Expect new textbooks. Kreigh -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Fri Dec 28 07:27:36 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Fri Dec 28 07:27:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <001e01c8493f$77232b60$65698220$@dillen@skynet.be> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> <4774CE59.D3FE4A0@gmx.de> <001e01c8493f$77232b60$65698220$@dillen@skynet.be> Message-ID: <6C753398-6921-487B-830B-8F2ECEE735F4@heidelberg.edu> As I've read all the posts on this topic and thought about it for a couple of days (not to mention seeing all the iron precipitate in the water I'm using to soak attacked specimens), I think my original thoughts were headed in the wrong direction - at least partly. I was looking into oxygen scavengers and/or dessicants to protect the pyrite. However, the pyrite itself is an ideal oxygen scavenger. The goal really should be to stop the flux of oxygen (and water vapor) to the pyrite. This can be done by using a good quality plastic (mylar) bag, ideally one that is sealed, or at least a zip- lock. I can afford the little bit of decay that will be caused by the oxygen that's already in the bag when it's sealed up. It's not a perfect barrier to diffusion, but if I can drastically slow down the arrival of oxygen to the specimen (and this approach should do that), I can correspondingly lengthen the life expectancy of the specimen. After all, if I can raise the longevity of the specimen from 2 years to 100 years, that's not perfect but it's acceptable. Thanks for all the thoughts! Clearly, I'm not the only one fighting this battle. Pete Richards On Dec 28, 2007, at 5:50 AM, Rik Dillen wrote: > Some thoughts about "desinfecting" pyrite aggregates before decay : > > 1) A suitable product to kill any bacteria would be "Neo-Sabenyl" > solution (active compound : chlorophene > (O-BENZYL-P-CHLOROPHENOL)), which is used to desinfect surgical > tools (and parts of the body). This is a non-aggressive > product, that penetrates quite well in porosities. > 2) I doubt seriously that any solution can reach internal > inclusions of framboids in pyrite aggregates or other internal > features. I'm wondering if any (non permanent) solution treatment > would help. > 3) If the cause is bacterial, it should be possible to eliminate > the threat by just heating up the sample for a short > period to 140?C. > 4) I think that more than one mechanism could be responsible, with > a possible role for bacteria, relicts (as micro-fluid > inclusions ?) of the original acid solution from which the > aggregates was formed, traces of sulphates, free sulphur > etc.). That makes it so difficult to find one method to cure all > cases. > > My 2 eurocents... > Greetings, > > Rik DILLEN > Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas > Belgium > E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be > Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen > > MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 > Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) > Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen > http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html > Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds- > bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Juergen Wachsmuth > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 11:22 AM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease > > Hello, > > tetracycline cannot harm all kinds of bacteria that may exist in / > on rocks. > Its efficacy does not even cover all bacteria that may cause > infections in > humans. Moreover, it does not kill bacteria, it prevents bacterial > growth as > long as it is active. Surviving bacteria will be active afterwards. > Therefore I suggest you should choose a desinfecting substance for > your > purpose. Alkohol 70-80 % could be efficient. Ready to use solutions > for > desinfecting hands contain additives that make them more powerful, > but may > leave a residue on the surface of specimens. Other solutions useful > for > surface desinfection in hospitals are to be diluted by water. Using > the > concentrated stuff may not be effective. I never tried their > usefulness as > pyrite is not my main interest. > > Tetracycline is known to form precipitates with cations like Ca2+. > Maybe the > reaction with Fe2+/3+ is the reason for the black colour you > observed. Just > an idea ... > > Regards, > J?rgen > Ulm - Germany > > > R. Peter Richards schrieb: > >> Thanks for the reference, Pete. I've heard of the bacterial >> mediation theory in the past, and read mixed opinions about how >> important it is. Even tried treating a decaying pyritized ammonite >> with tetracycline once - it turned black but I'm not sure the >> treatment did any good.... >> >> Pete Richards > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tjokela at execulink.com Fri Dec 28 08:27:26 2007 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Fri Dec 28 08:29:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> <4774CE59.D3FE4A0@gmx.de><001e01c8493f$77232b60$65698220$@dillen@skynet.be> <6C753398-6921-487B-830B-8F2ECEE735F4@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <000a01c8496e$88ed4360$6400a8c0@Junior> Double bag it in heavy freezer bags. Vacuum seal it? Or get a can of that gas, perhaps from a paint store, that you spray into a paint can, heavier than O2 so it sinks down, forces the O2 out, and keeps the paint from drying out. Then chuck it into a good tightly lidded plastic freezer bin, Rubbermaid or whatever. And entomb it in a massive block of lead. Oh wait, that's kryptonite you need the lead for. Lol. Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Business: http://www.element51.com Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Peter Richards" snip I can afford the little bit of decay that will be caused by the oxygen that's already in the bag when it's sealed up. It's not a perfect barrier to diffusion, snip From kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca Fri Dec 28 08:53:05 2007 From: kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca (Kay Davis) Date: Fri Dec 28 08:53:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease In-Reply-To: <000a01c8496e$88ed4360$6400a8c0@Junior> References: <3457B242-03E9-42F4-A350-D8D46E9C5F98@heidelberg.edu> <8CA1617C7C80280-D3C-22FE@WEBMAIL-MB16.sysops.aol.com> <4774CE59.D3FE4A0@gmx.de><001e01c8493f$77232b60$65698220$@dillen@skynet.be><6C753398-6921-487B-830B-8F2ECEE735F4@heidelberg.edu> <000a01c8496e$88ed4360$6400a8c0@Junior> Message-ID: <030001c84972$1f009390$3939a8c0@D8YF2G81> Naw put it in the ziplock bag, go to your local welding place (or auto bodyshop) and have them Argon flood the bag then seal the bag... then when you get home wrap the top edge with aluminum foil and use a iron to melt and heat seal the top of the bag above the zipper Kay -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Tim Jokela Jr. Sent: December 28, 2007 11:27 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pyrite disease Double bag it in heavy freezer bags. Vacuum seal it? Or get a can of that gas, perhaps from a paint store, that you spray into a paint can, heavier than O2 so it sinks down, forces the O2 out, and keeps the paint from drying out. Then chuck it into a good tightly lidded plastic freezer bin, Rubbermaid or whatever. And entomb it in a massive block of lead. Oh wait, that's kryptonite you need the lead for. Lol. Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Business: http://www.element51.com Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Peter Richards" snip I can afford the little bit of decay that will be caused by the oxygen that's already in the bag when it's sealed up. It's not a perfect barrier to diffusion, snip -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Fri Dec 28 09:50:55 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Dec 28 09:51:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving In-Reply-To: <8CA1773DAB70B86-4D8-6948@WEBMAIL-MA20.sysops.aol.com> References: <4774801B.677F@Tomaszewski.net> <8CA1773DAB70B86-4D8-6948@WEBMAIL-MA20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <476BFC7B000731B6@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) The new island is called Lo'ihi and you can find a lot of information about it by googling that word (you don't have to type the apostrophe to get results). The following is a good site with pictures in a "virtual tour." http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/HCV/loihi.html Aloha, Kitty At 04:19 AM 12/28/2007, you wrote: >? There is even a new island forming, it is below the oceans surface, and > >one day will break through, but I'm not sure what the time line is. > >D > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors >Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:49 pm >Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving > > > > >The January 2008 issue of "Scientific American" has an article by John >A. Tarduno titled "Hot Spots Unplugged" that shows the hot spot forming >Hawaii is moving (south), independent of the Pacific Plate movement. > >Much of the geology of the (north) western United States is based on the >assumption that hot spots, especially the one under Hawaii, are fixed. > >The world, and geology, has gotten more complicated again. Expect new >textbooks. > >Kreigh > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >________________________________________________________________________ >More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - >http://webmail.aol.com > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From hilmarandheidi at telus.net Fri Dec 28 10:12:40 2007 From: hilmarandheidi at telus.net (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Fri Dec 28 10:12:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rock Candy Mine Trips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F48B190-38F6-42B1-9A76-55135B05A245@telus.net> > >> Hilmar & others, >> >> I have read the material on his website and my >> impression is that the "normal" trips offer only very limited >> collecting >> time and are more likely to yield "pretty" fluorite pieces than the >> well-crystallized fluorite specimens that I am interested in. On >> the other >> hand the "vug" collecting trip sounds fabulous but pricey. I'd >> appreciate >> learning about anyone's experiences on either the regular or "vug" >> trips. >> _________________________________________________________________ Hello Nate. I have not participated in a "VUG TOUR" just the cheapo trips. But I was able to pick up a view pieces with nice crystals on them. Not very big ones, but crystals nevertheless. I also got some plates with barite crystals on them. To see the barite it definitely helps if it is a sunny day, because the barite reflects much more then the fluorite. If you are interested in fluorescent material, pick up some very pale green pieces. they will fluoresce the most. A bright blue. The paler the green colour the brighter the fluorescence ! I think it will vary from one time to the next what you might find on the cheapo trips. But you do not have to prearrange for those. You just go to the Chamber of Commerce in Grand Forks and sign up for a trip right there. For more info see : http://www.grandforkschamber.com/vic/rockcandy.htm Hilmar Krocke Vancouver BC --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dfreeman at fascination.com Fri Dec 28 09:33:02 2007 From: dfreeman at fascination.com (Dave Freeman mjwy) Date: Fri Dec 28 11:12:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] anyone familiar with Sybille Canyon, Wyoming,and lunar meteorites? Message-ID: <4775334E.7000300@fascination.com> Dear Don; I sell anorthosite from Sybille Canyon and I call it "lunar like" and have never had any issues with ebay or with collectors, including NASA. It wasn't clear if your comment was directed in my direction or not. I don't think so but always be observant of works like "like" or "similar to" in adds. For the collector, my specimens are about $3 a pound or so, and who would truly think they could buy anything close to lunar for .....lets see, less than a penny a gram....mmm. Sounds like a deal to me. Let me know if it was me. Dave Freeman ebay ID mjwy From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Fri Dec 28 12:59:57 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Fri Dec 28 12:59:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pictures of Large marcasite Message-ID: Hello Pete and all! I told you about updating my website with pictures of my huge Marcasite Sphere. Well it's done! Click on the link on the bottom of my home page www.sphereheaven.com I would like to know what you think of it. best regards, Wes --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Fri Dec 28 13:05:51 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 28 13:06:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pictures of Large marcasite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CA17AC8FA2A942-9D0-E1B@MBLK-M01.sysops.aol.com> Awesome sphere, Wes! It would make quite a bowling ball, wouldn't it?? There's even a hole to put your finger in! The patterns of those "flowery" marcasite masses within the agate, remind me of a satellite image of the fjords along the coast of Greenland! Pete -----Original Message----- From: Wes Lingerfelt To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 1:59 pm Subject: [Rockhounds] Pictures of Large marcasite Hello Pete and all! I told you about updating my website with pictures of my huge Marcasite Sphere. Well it's done! Click on the link on the bottom of my home page www.sphereheaven.com I would like to know what you think of it. best regards, Wes --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Dec 28 16:56:03 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Dec 28 16:52:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pictures of Large marcasite References: Message-ID: <47759A4C.3AC9@Tomaszewski.net> Wes, That is one way cool sphere. Very well done! Kreigh Wes Lingerfelt wrote: > > Hello Pete and all! > > I told you about updating my website with pictures of my huge Marcasite Sphere. Well it's done! Click on the link on the bottom of my home page www.sphereheaven.com > I would like to know what you think of it. > best regards, > Wes > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Rocks4u at prodigy.net Fri Dec 28 17:08:31 2007 From: Rocks4u at prodigy.net (Wes Lingerfelt) Date: Fri Dec 28 17:07:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Pictures of Large marcasite In-Reply-To: <47759A4C.3AC9@Tomaszewski.net> References: <47759A4C.3AC9@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <351BB81CA00B408FACF976E9C6033C7A@WesLingerfelPC> Thanks, Kreigh! I just realized that the Sagenite around the boundaries of the agate didn't show up very well and I forgot to take a close up. Oh Well, there's enough eye candy there already. Thanks for looking, Wes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Pictures of Large marcasite > Wes, > > That is one way cool sphere. Very well done! > > Kreigh > > > > Wes Lingerfelt wrote: >> >> Hello Pete and all! >> >> I told you about updating my website with pictures of my huge Marcasite >> Sphere. Well it's done! Click on the link on the bottom of my home page >> www.sphereheaven.com >> I would like to know what you think of it. >> best regards, >> Wes >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kadok at infowest.com Fri Dec 28 20:25:02 2007 From: kadok at infowest.com (Margaret Malm) Date: Fri Dec 28 20:23:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving In-Reply-To: <476BFC7B000731B6@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <4774801B.677F@Tomaszewski.net><8CA1773DAB70B86-4D8-6948@WEBMAIL-MA20.sysops.aol.com> <476BFC7B000731B6@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <001201c849d2$c84f2910$0200a8c0@kadok> Neat site! Thanks, Kitty! Margaret -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 10:51 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving The new island is called Lo'ihi and you can find a lot of information about it by googling that word (you don't have to type the apostrophe to get results). The following is a good site with pictures in a "virtual tour." http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/GG/HCV/loihi.html Aloha, Kitty At 04:19 AM 12/28/2007, you wrote: >? There is even a new island forming, it is below the oceans surface, and > >one day will break through, but I'm not sure what the time line is. > >D > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kreigh Tomaszewski >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors >Sent: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:49 pm >Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving > > > > >The January 2008 issue of "Scientific American" has an article by John >A. Tarduno titled "Hot Spots Unplugged" that shows the hot spot forming >Hawaii is moving (south), independent of the Pacific Plate movement. > >Much of the geology of the (north) western United States is based on the >assumption that hot spots, especially the one under Hawaii, are fixed. > >The world, and geology, has gotten more complicated again. Expect new >textbooks. > >Kreigh > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > >________________________________________________________________________ >More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - >http://webmail.aol.com > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Pmodreski at aol.com Fri Dec 28 20:51:26 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Fri Dec 28 20:51:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] The Hawaiian Hot Spot Is Also Moving Message-ID: Yes, the Loihi Seamount website is quite neat. I didn't notice it stated on this website so I did a little extra googling, and found one that quoted that it will be an estimated 120,000-160,000 years before this seamount is built up to become a surface volcano. (But when that happens, I'm sure you'll read it posted first in "Rockhounds"! (It boggles the mind, to think about what "we" will be doing, that many years from now!)) (And P.S., to "D"... the growth of this new volcanic seamount is not the "Hot Spot Also Moving" referred to in the article Kreigh mentioned; movement of the locus of Hawaiian volcanism to the southeast is the "first-order" effect, due to the uniform northwest motion of the Pacific Plate. I haven't read the article, but the inferred motion of the hot spot itself would be a second-order, more subtle trend, presumably deduced from careful study of the longer-term history of volcanism throughout the whole Hawaiian island chain. Pete **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From mineral.maertens at att.net Mon Dec 31 04:36:28 2007 From: mineral.maertens at att.net (Johan Maertens) Date: Mon Dec 31 04:42:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] South Dakota - Rapid City & Calcite vs. Devil's Tower In-Reply-To: <200712280203.lBS23ee4003004@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: I will be visiting South Dakota's Rapid City, Badlands etc as a tourist, June 2008. 1) Can one still find and collect sand calcites in South Dakota? Where are collectable area's? 2) I have to choose between seeing Devils' Tower or searching for the calcites. What and why would be the best choice? Johan Maertens Mineral dot Maertens at att dot net calcite4ever at gmail dot com Do you like minerals and other earth treasures? Visit the Mineral Collectors Page by the Mineral Club of Antwerp at http://www.minerant.org From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Mon Dec 31 07:26:07 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Mon Dec 31 07:22:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] South Dakota - Rapid City & Calcite vs. Devil's Tower References: Message-ID: <001701c84bc1$77895780$b90ca118@feldsparflash> Hi Johan, I haven't searched for sand calcites but I understand the best place to collect is Snake Butte which is now designated as a National Natural Landmark. So I don't know if it is possible to collect there. I have been to Devil's Tower. I would vote for seeing the Tower, it is quite a geologic wonder. If you have the time you can hike around the base. The badlands are beautiful and Rapid City and Deadwood are fun places to visit. I don't know how much time you have but the Black Hills with the buffalo herds give you a sense of the past. Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johan Maertens" To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 7:36 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] South Dakota - Rapid City & Calcite vs. Devil's Tower > I will be visiting South Dakota's Rapid City, Badlands etc as a > tourist, June 2008. > > 1) Can one still find and collect sand calcites in South Dakota? > Where are collectable area's? > > > 2) I have to choose between seeing Devils' Tower or searching for the > calcites. > What and why would be the best choice? > > Johan Maertens > Mineral dot Maertens at att dot net > calcite4ever at gmail dot com > > Do you like minerals and other earth treasures? > Visit the Mineral Collectors Page by the Mineral Club of Antwerp at > http://www.minerant.org > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Mon Dec 31 07:35:00 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Dec 31 07:33:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] South Dakota - Rapid City & Calcite vs. Devil's Tower In-Reply-To: References: <200712280203.lBS23ee4003004@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <008b01c84bc2$b5620e20$6501a8c0@okapi> The location you want is "Rattlesnake Butte", if I remember correctly. I don't know the collecting status there...it's been MANY years. When are you planning to go? Right now the weather out in that part of South Dakota is pretty nasty. Even if you could get permission, you wouldn't want to be there. I'd head over to Devil's Tower...it's NOT to be missed. If you can, take the back roads to get there. You'll go by some great outcrops. Last summer The Dot and I collected some killer ripple mark slabs from a roadcut. BTW... Whilst in Rapid City make sure you visit the geology museum at the School of Mines! Regards, Gary Brown http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of the MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Johan Maertens > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 6:36 AM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: [Rockhounds] South Dakota - Rapid City & Calcite vs. > Devil's Tower > > I will be visiting South Dakota's Rapid City, Badlands etc as > a tourist, June 2008. > > 1) Can one still find and collect sand calcites in South Dakota? > Where are collectable area's? > > > 2) I have to choose between seeing Devils' Tower or searching > for the calcites. > What and why would be the best choice? > > Johan Maertens > Mineral dot Maertens at att dot net > calcite4ever at gmail dot com From pmodreski at aol.com Mon Dec 31 11:03:48 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 31 11:04:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? In-Reply-To: <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com><200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com><476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net><6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com><476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <8CA19F702533738-A54-5EE5@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> Hi to the Rockhounds list, Just writing?one more slightly belated response to the "your home's elevation" thread... I was embarassed not to know exactly my home's elevation in Wheat Ridge, CO; all I could remember is that it's somewhere between 5400-5500 feet--wondering if that was close enough?? (Most of the Denver metro area is a bit higher than the nominal "Mile High" that we brag about.)? So I finally looked it up on on topozone.com; looks like I am about 5440 give or take 10 feet--that's more accurate that I'd trust my GPS receiver to read. I have aquamarine specimens (a few, anyway) that I've collected on Mt. Antero, so, checking a topo map, I think I've collected them at around 13,600', give or take a hundred feet--that's on the southwest ridge of Mt. Antero, there being, as collectors who go there know, no aquamarine higher than about 13,800' on the actual summit?area (summit, 14,269). I'd never thought much about a lowest place where I'd collected, but (not having collected minerals or fossils at very many sites along the coasts), one such would be Cliffwood Beach, New Jersey, a sea level site along the shore of Raritan Bay where Cretaceous marine fossils are (or used to be) found, along with pyrite/marcasite concretions--similar to (but not as nice looking as) the ones from the clay pits in not-too-far-away Sayreville NJ.? This is IF I have any of the pyrite concretions that have not all decomposed--as per the other recent thread here.? Amber is supposed to be found here too, though I never noticed any, back when I lived in NJ and collected here a few times (long time ago!).? The approx. location is, 40? 26' 48"N, 74? 12' 36"W (NAD83/WGS84) I don't think I have any specimens dredged from the great depths, as Kreigh does.? But continuing on the theme of lowest places, here is a very interesting website, from geology.com, a tour of the lowest (below sea level) "dry land" places on earth.? It notes that "a total of 33 countries have land below sea level", and if you're up for a quiz, try naming the 10 lowest places (of dry land, not lake or sea bottoms) on the planet before you look at the answers: http://geology.com/below-sea-level/ (hint, two of them are in the U.S., and the lowest one worldwide should be easy to guess...) happy New Year to all, Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: Ted Kowalski To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 8:17 am Subject: RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"} My house is at 270' above sea level and no, I don't have to look it up. I've ired up my GPS and TOPO software here at home central to know how high I m. I prefer to dig or break rock wherever I can. I've dug at seal level and at very level above that, well I haven't rock hounded above 10,000 feet yet, ut I am still relatively young. I do prefer to dig in cool and breezy laces, so I do have some preference for elevations; which here in the east s anything above 1000 feet. Ted Kowalski redericksburg, VA USA ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Mon Dec 31 11:24:34 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Dec 31 11:27:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] no messages & Kaapa Quarry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200712311927.lBVJRKhh032245@jade.aracnet.com> Either the list is dead or I am no longer receiving messages. So this is a test, with an actual subject lol. I tried the Kaapa Quarry Road in Kailua (Oahu, HI) yesterday, which had been mentioned for microzeolites a month or so ago. The old quarry way up on top is no longer showing anything, but there is a new, huge (active) quarry on a spur road to the right about halfway up that was apparently used to provide fill for the new H3 freeway. I didn't think of trying the spur, then we got on the H3 to go to Electric Beach, and that's when I spotted the quarry (you can't miss it from the freeway). The new quarry is on the uphill side, and another old quarry, now a pond, is on the downhill side. Anyway, I might not get there today (we are leaving tonight) but it does look promising, in case anyone is curious and can check it out...lots of big chunks of basalt just lying around... Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! nospam@OreRockOn.com Web Site: http://OreRockOn.com From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Mon Dec 31 12:13:28 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Mon Dec 31 12:13:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <8CA19F702533738-A54-5EE5@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <005201c84be9$9b9d7570$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 2:03 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? Hi to the Rockhounds list, Just writing one more slightly belated response to the "your home's elevation" thread... I was embarassed not to know exactly my home's elevation in Wheat Ridge, CO; all I could remember is that it's somewhere between 5400-5500 feet--wondering if that was close enough? (Most of the Denver metro area is a bit higher than the nominal "Mile High" that we brag about.) So I finally looked it up on on topozone.com; looks like I am about 5440 give or take 10 feet--that's more accurate that I'd trust my GPS receiver to read. I have aquamarine specimens (a few, anyway) that I've collected on Mt. Antero, so, checking a topo map, I think I've collected them at around 13,600', give or take a hundred feet--that's on the southwest ridge of Mt. Antero, there being, as collectors who go there know, no aquamarine higher than about 13,800' on the actual summit area (summit, 14,269). I'd never thought much about a lowest place where I'd collected, but (not having collected minerals or fossils at very many sites along the coasts), one such would be Cliffwood Beach, New Jersey, a sea level site along the shore of Raritan Bay where Cretaceous marine fossils are (or used to be) found, along with pyrite/marcasite concretions--similar to (but not as nice looking as) the ones from the clay pits in not-too-far-away Sayreville NJ. This is IF I have any of the pyrite concretions that have not all decomposed--as per the other recent thread here. Amber is supposed to be found here too, though I never noticed any, back when I lived in NJ and collected here a few times (long time ago!). The approx. location is, 40? 26' 48"N, 74? 12' 36"W (NAD83/WGS84) I don't think I have any specimens dredged from the great depths, as Kreigh does. But continuing on the theme of lowest places, here is a very interesting website, from geology.com, a tour of the lowest (below sea level) "dry land" places on earth. It notes that "a total of 33 countries have land below sea level", and if you're up for a quiz, try naming the 10 lowest places (of dry land, not lake or sea bottoms) on the planet before you look at the answers: http://geology.com/below-sea-level/ (hint, two of them are in the U.S., and the lowest one worldwide should be easy to guess...) happy New Year to all, Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: Ted Kowalski To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 8:17 am Subject: RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"} My house is at 270' above sea level and no, I don't have to look it up. I've ired up my GPS and TOPO software here at home central to know how high I m. I prefer to dig or break rock wherever I can. I've dug at seal level and at very level above that, well I haven't rock hounded above 10,000 feet yet, ut I am still relatively young. I do prefer to dig in cool and breezy laces, so I do have some preference for elevations; which here in the east s anything above 1000 feet. Ted Kowalski redericksburg, VA USA ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pmodreski at aol.com Mon Dec 31 12:26:19 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Mon Dec 31 12:26:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? In-Reply-To: <005201c84be9$9b9d7570$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <8CA19F702533738-A54-5EE5@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> <005201c84be9$9b9d7570$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <8CA1A02893D27B8-A54-6225@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> I would have guessed that Kentucky, being an interior state, would all be high enough above sea level that a man-made excavation reaching below sea level would be unlikely.? Not so, evidently!? Thanks, Alan. I checked the USGS publication on "Elevations and Distances in the United States" (online at http://erg.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html and I see that the lowest elevation in KY is listed as 257 feet above sea level, in Fulton County along the Mississippi River.? (Its' highest elev. is Black Mountain, Harlan Co., 4145 feet.)? So, I presume the limestone quarry must be relatively near the river, and more than 257 feet deep!) I recently visited the Rock of Ages granite quarry, in Barre, VT, which claims to be "nearly 600 feet deep".? I wonder what the deepest quarry (relative to the adjacent land surface) in the U.S. is--perhaps, that is it; and if the Kuttawa KY quarry is the deepest in the country relative to sea level? Pete There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country.? ? Alan? -----Original Message----- From: Alan Goldstein To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country.? ? Alan? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: ? To: ? Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 2:03 PM? Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation?? ? Hi to the Rockhounds list,? ? Just writing one more slightly belated response to the "your home's elevation" thread...? ? I was embarassed not to know exactly my home's elevation in Wheat Ridge, CO; all I could remember is that it's somewhere between 5400-5500 feet--wondering if that was close enough? (Most of the Denver metro area is a bit higher than the nominal "Mile High" that we brag about.) So I finally looked it up on on topozone.com; looks like I am about 5440 give or take 10 feet--that's more accurate that I'd trust my GPS receiver to read.? ? I have aquamarine specimens (a few, anyway) that I've collected on Mt. Antero, so, checking a topo map, I think I've collected them at around 13,600', give or take a hundred feet--that's on the southwest ridge of Mt. Antero, there being, as collectors who go there know, no aquamarine higher than about 13,800' on the actual summit area (summit, 14,269).? ? I'd never thought much about a lowest place where I'd collected, but (not having collected minerals or fossils at very many sites along the coasts), one such would be Cliffwood Beach, New Jersey, a sea level site along the shore of Raritan Bay where Cretaceous marine fossils are (or used to be) found, along with pyrite/marcasite concretions--similar to (but not as nice looking as) the ones from the clay pits in not-too-far-away Sayreville NJ. This is IF I have any of the pyrite concretions that have not all decomposed--as per the other recent thread here. Amber is supposed to be found here too, though I never noticed any, back when I lived in NJ and collected here a few times (long time ago!). The approx. location is,? 40? 26' 48"N, 74? 12' 36"W (NAD83/WGS84)? ? I don't think I have any specimens dredged from the great depths, as Kreigh does. But continuing on the theme of lowest places, here is a very interesting website, from geology.com, a tour of the lowest (below sea level) "dry land" places on earth. It notes that "a total of 33 countries have land below sea level", and if you're up for a quiz, try naming the 10 lowest places (of dry land, not lake or sea bottoms) on the planet before you look at the answers:? http://geology.com/below-sea-level/? (hint, two of them are in the U.S., and the lowest one worldwide should be easy to guess...)? ? happy New Year to all,? Pete Modreski? ? -----Original Message-----? From: Ted Kowalski ? To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' ? Sent: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 8:17 am? Subject: RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"}? ? ? My house is at 270' above sea level and no, I don't have to look it up. I've? ired up my GPS and TOPO software here at home central to know how high I? m.? I prefer to dig or break rock wherever I can. I've dug at seal level and at? very level above that, well I haven't rock hounded above 10,000 feet yet,? ut I am still relatively young. I do prefer to dig in cool and breezy? laces, so I do have some preference for elevations; which here in the east? s anything above 1000 feet.? Ted Kowalski? redericksburg, VA USA? ? ________________________________________________________________________? More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com? ? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---? multipart/alternative? ?text/plain (text body -- kept)? ?text/html? ---? -- _______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jaybates at rcn.com Mon Dec 31 13:50:18 2007 From: jaybates at rcn.com (jaybates) Date: Mon Dec 31 13:49:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <8CA19F702533738-A54-5EE5@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com><005201c84be9$9b9d7570$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <8CA1A02893D27B8-A54-6225@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000501c84bf7$26989bc0$6401a8c0@astound.net> The deepest open pit mine is the copper mine at Bingham Utah. The deepest shaft mine is the Homestake Mine in Lead South Dakota. I would think the Quincy in Michigan is the deepest relative to sea level. http://www.lib.mtu.edu/mtuarchives/ms001/ms001-intro.aspx ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound,do you know your home's elevation? I would have guessed that Kentucky, being an interior state, would all be high enough above sea level that a man-made excavation reaching below sea level would be unlikely. Not so, evidently! Thanks, Alan. I checked the USGS publication on "Elevations and Distances in the United States" (online at http://erg.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html and I see that the lowest elevation in KY is listed as 257 feet above sea level, in Fulton County along the Mississippi River. (Its' highest elev. is Black Mountain, Harlan Co., 4145 feet.) So, I presume the limestone quarry must be relatively near the river, and more than 257 feet deep!) I recently visited the Rock of Ages granite quarry, in Barre, VT, which claims to be "nearly 600 feet deep". I wonder what the deepest quarry (relative to the adjacent land surface) in the U.S. is--perhaps, that is it; and if the Kuttawa KY quarry is the deepest in the country relative to sea level? Pete There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Alan Goldstein To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 2:03 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? Hi to the Rockhounds list, Just writing one more slightly belated response to the "your home's elevation" thread... I was embarassed not to know exactly my home's elevation in Wheat Ridge, CO; all I could remember is that it's somewhere between 5400-5500 feet--wondering if that was close enough? (Most of the Denver metro area is a bit higher than the nominal "Mile High" that we brag about.) So I finally looked it up on on topozone.com; looks like I am about 5440 give or take 10 feet--that's more accurate that I'd trust my GPS receiver to read. I have aquamarine specimens (a few, anyway) that I've collected on Mt. Antero, so, checking a topo map, I think I've collected them at around 13,600', give or take a hundred feet--that's on the southwest ridge of Mt. Antero, there being, as collectors who go there know, no aquamarine higher than about 13,800' on the actual summit area (summit, 14,269). I'd never thought much about a lowest place where I'd collected, but (not having collected minerals or fossils at very many sites along the coasts), one such would be Cliffwood Beach, New Jersey, a sea level site along the shore of Raritan Bay where Cretaceous marine fossils are (or used to be) found, along with pyrite/marcasite concretions--similar to (but not as nice looking as) the ones from the clay pits in not-too-far-away Sayreville NJ. This is IF I have any of the pyrite concretions that have not all decomposed--as per the other recent thread here. Amber is supposed to be found here too, though I never noticed any, back when I lived in NJ and collected here a few times (long time ago!). The approx. location is, 40? 26' 48"N, 74? 12' 36"W (NAD83/WGS84) I don't think I have any specimens dredged from the great depths, as Kreigh does. But continuing on the theme of lowest places, here is a very interesting website, from geology.com, a tour of the lowest (below sea level) "dry land" places on earth. It notes that "a total of 33 countries have land below sea level", and if you're up for a quiz, try naming the 10 lowest places (of dry land, not lake or sea bottoms) on the planet before you look at the answers: http://geology.com/below-sea-level/ (hint, two of them are in the U.S., and the lowest one worldwide should be easy to guess...) happy New Year to all, Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: Ted Kowalski To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 8:17 am Subject: RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"} My house is at 270' above sea level and no, I don't have to look it up. I've ired up my GPS and TOPO software here at home central to know how high I m. I prefer to dig or break rock wherever I can. I've dug at seal level and at very level above that, well I haven't rock hounded above 10,000 feet yet, ut I am still relatively young. I do prefer to dig in cool and breezy laces, so I do have some preference for elevations; which here in the east s anything above 1000 feet. Ted Kowalski redericksburg, VA USA ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Mon Dec 31 23:42:44 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Tue Jan 1 00:34:25 2008 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? References: <8CA120262D389D7-F14-2623@webmail-da20.sysops.aol.com> <200712211640.lBLGeQMT029669@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <476BFA69.8000700@verizon.net> <6ad51f64f72b19e075946606367cbda3@lrream.com> <476D6B39.8040506@verizon.net> <003a01c845cf$9d9fedf0$0200a8c0@Notebook> <476F2D04.31D1@Tomaszewski.net> <002601c84640$16102ff0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <8CA19F702533738-A54-5EE5@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com><005201c84be9$9b9d7570$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <8CA1A02893D27B8-A54-6225@FWM-M43.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c84c50$fe20db80$2450d0c4@federatiydq01o> Hi List, I have already collected in the open pit at the Palabora Mining Company's mine i n Phalaborwa. At that stage, the bottom of the pit was below sea level. They are no longer mining in the open pit, as it had reached its finite size, thuzs they have sunk a shaft from here and are mining underground. The biggest specimen I have from there is a calcite on fluorapophyllite (30 x 20 x 15 cm). This locality is also of course known for its baddeleyite, chondrodite, mesolite, natrolite, prehnite and a host of others. Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound,do you know your home's elevation? I would have guessed that Kentucky, being an interior state, would all be high enough above sea level that a man-made excavation reaching below sea level would be unlikely. Not so, evidently! Thanks, Alan. I checked the USGS publication on "Elevations and Distances in the United States" (online at http://erg.usgs.gov/isb/pubs/booklets/elvadist/elvadist.html and I see that the lowest elevation in KY is listed as 257 feet above sea level, in Fulton County along the Mississippi River. (Its' highest elev. is Black Mountain, Harlan Co., 4145 feet.) So, I presume the limestone quarry must be relatively near the river, and more than 257 feet deep!) I recently visited the Rock of Ages granite quarry, in Barre, VT, which claims to be "nearly 600 feet deep". I wonder what the deepest quarry (relative to the adjacent land surface) in the U.S. is--perhaps, that is it; and if the Kuttawa KY quarry is the deepest in the country relative to sea level? Pete There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Alan Goldstein To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? There is a man-made site 100 feet below sea level in Kentucky. It is the Reed Quarry -- a limestone quarry in Kuttawa, KY just outside the fluorspar district. It was one of the "top 10" in terms of limestone production in the country. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 2:03 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? Hi to the Rockhounds list, Just writing one more slightly belated response to the "your home's elevation" thread... I was embarassed not to know exactly my home's elevation in Wheat Ridge, CO; all I could remember is that it's somewhere between 5400-5500 feet--wondering if that was close enough? (Most of the Denver metro area is a bit higher than the nominal "Mile High" that we brag about.) So I finally looked it up on on topozone.com; looks like I am about 5440 give or take 10 feet--that's more accurate that I'd trust my GPS receiver to read. I have aquamarine specimens (a few, anyway) that I've collected on Mt. Antero, so, checking a topo map, I think I've collected them at around 13,600', give or take a hundred feet--that's on the southwest ridge of Mt. Antero, there being, as collectors who go there know, no aquamarine higher than about 13,800' on the actual summit area (summit, 14,269). I'd never thought much about a lowest place where I'd collected, but (not having collected minerals or fossils at very many sites along the coasts), one such would be Cliffwood Beach, New Jersey, a sea level site along the shore of Raritan Bay where Cretaceous marine fossils are (or used to be) found, along with pyrite/marcasite concretions--similar to (but not as nice looking as) the ones from the clay pits in not-too-far-away Sayreville NJ. This is IF I have any of the pyrite concretions that have not all decomposed--as per the other recent thread here. Amber is supposed to be found here too, though I never noticed any, back when I lived in NJ and collected here a few times (long time ago!). The approx. location is, 40? 26' 48"N, 74? 12' 36"W (NAD83/WGS84) I don't think I have any specimens dredged from the great depths, as Kreigh does. But continuing on the theme of lowest places, here is a very interesting website, from geology.com, a tour of the lowest (below sea level) "dry land" places on earth. It notes that "a total of 33 countries have land below sea level", and if you're up for a quiz, try naming the 10 lowest places (of dry land, not lake or sea bottoms) on the planet before you look at the answers: http://geology.com/below-sea-level/ (hint, two of them are in the U.S., and the lowest one worldwide should be easy to guess...) happy New Year to all, Pete Modreski -----Original Message----- From: Ted Kowalski To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 8:17 am Subject: RE: As a Rockhound, do you know your home's elevation? [WAS: Re: [Rockhounds] "list wherethe knowledge of many is shared freely"} My house is at 270' above sea level and no, I don't have to look it up. I've ired up my GPS and TOPO software here at home central to know how high I m. I prefer to dig or break rock wherever I can. I've dug at seal level and at very level above that, well I haven't rock hounded above 10,000 feet yet, ut I am still relatively young. I do prefer to dig in cool and breezy laces, so I do have some preference for elevations; which here in the east s anything above 1000 feet. Ted Kowalski redericksburg, VA USA ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. 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