From smtravis at plateautel.net Mon Oct 1 17:43:22 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Mon Oct 1 17:44:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on the pump? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette Wimpee" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:53 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > To all you experienced Genie users out there, where is a good place to get > a replacement belt for a Genie? > Jeanette > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jlkelly1066 at iglide.net Mon Oct 1 18:48:33 2007 From: jlkelly1066 at iglide.net (jlkelly1066@iglide.net) Date: Mon Oct 1 18:46:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Belt for Genie In-Reply-To: <200710020103.l92131or022716@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710020103.l92131or022716@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <4701A371.6000507@iglide.net> rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com wrote: > Send Rockhounds mailing list submissions to > rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > rockhounds-request@lists.drizzle.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > rockhounds-owner@lists.drizzle.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Rockhounds digest..." > > > [Rockhounds-Digest] > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DP Genie parts (Jeanette Wimpee) > 2. Re: Re: DP Genie parts (Kreigh Tomaszewski) > 3. Re: Re: DP Genie parts (Steve & Marilyn) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:53:12 -0500 > From: "Jeanette Wimpee" > Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: <005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > To all you experienced Genie users out there, where is a good place to get a > replacement belt for a Genie? > Jeanette > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:37:21 -0400 > From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: <47006B61.2CF0@Tomaszewski.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Jeanette, > > I've only used a Genie once, but most lapidary manufactuers use standard > parts in assembling their equipment. You can probably find a cheaper > belt replacement at your local auto parts store than you can get from > the manufacturer. > > Kreigh > > > > > Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > >> To all you experienced Genie users out there, where is a good place to get a >> replacement belt for a Genie? >> Jeanette >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:43:22 -0700 > From: "Steve & Marilyn" > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > Message-ID: <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you talking > about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on the pump? > Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeanette Wimpee" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:53 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > > > >> To all you experienced Genie users out there, where is a good place to get >> a replacement belt for a Genie? >> Jeanette >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > Hi Jeanette, > > Yeah, like Steve I am confused. The Genie is direct drive. What belt are you talking about? I think I would start with Diamond Pacific to find out "exactly" what you need then look around a bit with the chance you will find something cheaper. Kelly > > ------------------------------ > > From nospam at orerockon.com Mon Oct 1 18:49:01 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Mon Oct 1 18:49:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> Message-ID: <200710020149.l921nX2R027040@bubbleator.drizzle.com> It's a thin, cogged belt, and it's for the pump. I don't think you could find it from anyone other than DP without a helluva lot of searching. They sell it for a few bucks. At 05:43 PM 10/1/2007, you wrote: >Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you >talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on >the pump? Steve >----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette Wimpee" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:53 PM >Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > > >>To all you experienced Genie users out there, where is a good place >>to get a replacement belt for a Genie? >>Jeanette > >Tim Fisher >Ore-ROCK-On! >Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Oct 1 21:03:33 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Oct 1 21:03:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fallbrook, CA Gem & Mineral Society's show this Sunday Message-ID: <003c01c804a9$3438c920$3bfdf604@TheBlackAdder> Fallbrook, California: 123 W. Alvarado St. Just a reminder of our annual gem & mineral show this coming Sunday For details and directions, please see our website at: http://www.fgms.org Fall Festival of Gems & Minerals Sunday, October 7th from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. Free admission and free parking This is the big annual fund raising event for the Society and an open house for the community to see our new museum and gift shop. The meeting room will host special exhibits and silent auctions. Alvarado street will be closed in front of the museum. The Society will have a large booth selling great minerals & fossils, along with the wheel of fortune. There will be gold panning, geode cracking, lapidary demonstrations, and food provided by the Kiwanis. The street will also be filled with vendors selling minerals, fossils, gemstones & jewelry. There will be $50 bills given away to celebrate our 50th anniversary and our fabulous raffle prizes will be awarded at 4:00 p.m. Please make sure to invite everyone you know to attend, - it will be great fun for all! Mary Fong/Walker Vice President & Chair of the Fall Festival From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 21:07:01 2007 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon Oct 1 21:07:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Titicaca Meteorite was Peruvian Meteorite Enstatite Message-ID: <116121.93799.qm@web51003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> In the last episode I stated that based upon short video glimpses that this might be an achondrite known as an Aubrite. The meteorite has been confirmed to be what is known as a "common chondrite". Links to photos have been posted to the Meteorite Central mailing list.. ....Supplied by Randal Gregory.(Meteorite Collector at the site) http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/titicaca/DSC00010.JPG http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/titicaca/DSC00014.JPG More photos: http://webpages.charter.net/garrison6328/titicaca/ This is most certainly a common chondrite and owing to the color, texture, etc. it is likely an "LL" (very low iron content) in the 4-5 range of chondrule alteration. That is just an estimate as no one knows or sure until the petrology and thin section studies are published. So Norton County, it is not. However it would likely be one of the largest stony masses ever witnessed. Last word was that the national government had no plans on recovering the main mass, but to leave the crater itself as a tourist attraction. The final word might lie with the land owner. This fall has already made him a rich man by local standards. Elton From geenet at centurytel.net Mon Oct 1 23:06:31 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Mon Oct 1 23:06:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> Message-ID: <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> I need a new belt for the pump. It looks ragged, and I'm not getting a good "geyser" anymore. Also getting water in the airline...which is strange....no holes. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve & Marilyn" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you > talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on the > pump? Steve From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Oct 2 01:04:10 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Oct 2 01:05:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <200710020805.l92855C6015269@bubbleator.drizzle.com> You need the pump repair kit, sounds like you also need the leathers and seals. I think it is $45. At 11:06 PM 10/1/2007, you wrote: >I need a new belt for the pump. It looks ragged, and I'm not getting >a good "geyser" anymore. Also getting water in the airline...which >is strange....no holes. >Jeanette >----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve & Marilyn" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:43 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > > >>Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you >>talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be >>on the pump? Steve Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From zebulon at isr.umich.edu Tue Oct 2 04:49:49 2007 From: zebulon at isr.umich.edu (Peter Sparks) Date: Tue Oct 2 04:50:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A><002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <6F651C1505A4A048923BCF2D756A7E49022BA486@isr-mail2.ad.isr.umich.edu> Check to see if the belt is loose. Pull on the belt and try to rotate the motor shaft and operate the pump. If the belt is slipping then you won't get a good spray. I've tried searching for a non-Diamond Pacific belt and it wasn't worth my time (and no success). The motor shaft pulley the belt is on is friction-fitted. After a period of time mine started slipping to the point of geyser going from pffffit.pffffit.pffffit to pft........pft.......pft. I regained a good geyser by using epoxy to fill in the small gap between the pulley and the shaft to get the friction back in place. I've used 2-part epoxy putty and that lasts a long time (about a year). I'm now trying "Gorilla" glue (water cured epoxy) because it's a bit more flexible and more tenacious but not impossible to remove. On the center top of the Genie pump is a red-painted bolt, Philips head. Unscrew that, put in a drop or two of light oil, and screw it back into place. The pump uses a leather bellows that needs occassional lubrication. Also put a few drops on the knob that controls the air flow. Rock dust tends to collect in that area. If the hose is stiff it should be replaced. Diamond Pacific sells a maintenance kit and basically all the things in it are useful, but it is the belt that is hard to get. The hose and leather for the bellows were things I had laying around. -- Peter -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanette Wimpee Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 2:07 AM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts I need a new belt for the pump. It looks ragged, and I'm not getting a good "geyser" anymore. Also getting water in the airline...which is strange....no holes. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve & Marilyn" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you > talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on > the pump? Steve -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Tue Oct 2 08:00:20 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Tue Oct 2 08:00:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 01:06:31 -0500, "Jeanette Wimpee" wrote: >I need a new belt for the pump. It looks ragged, and I'm not getting a good >"geyser" anymore. Also getting water in the airline...which is strange....no >holes. Have you oiled the pump leathers and seals? >Jeanette >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Steve & Marilyn" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > >Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:43 PM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > > >> Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you >> talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on the >> pump? Steve -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Oct 2 10:05:38 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Oct 2 10:07:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <200710021705.l92H5uv6003924@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Oiling only goes so far. If it's that far gone (water in the line), then the rubber seals are shot. I oil mine regularly and have replaced the seals, leathers and belt twice. Parts wear out, especially rubber and leather parts operating at relatively high speeds, under wet conditions, especially with heavy use. The DP repair kit is worth every penny. At 08:00 AM 10/2/2007, you wrote: >On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 01:06:31 -0500, "Jeanette Wimpee" > wrote: > > >I need a new belt for the pump. It looks ragged, and I'm not getting a good > >"geyser" anymore. Also getting water in the airline...which is > strange....no > >holes. > >Have you oiled the pump leathers and seals? > >Jeanette > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Steve & Marilyn" > >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > > >Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:43 PM > >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > > > > > >> Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you > >> talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on the > >> pump? Steve > >-- >Al Balmer >Sun City, AZ Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From geenet at centurytel.net Tue Oct 2 12:48:10 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (geenet@centurytel.net) Date: Tue Oct 2 12:48:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: <200710021705.l92H5uv6003924@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <200710021705.l92H5uv6003924@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20071002144810.3fu7xejusk00sogk@webmail2.centurytel.net> I've kept it oiled, but the machine did sit up unused for several months during my busy season at my "real" job. Even tho I oiled everything thoroughly when I started using it again, that's when I noticed a big change in spray output, and the pump did not want to start pumping when the motor started up. It is almost two years old now, and I figured those "moving parts" did need replacing. I just wanted to know where the best place to get them was. There is a range of prices at different sources online. The most expensive of which is Diamond Pacific itself. Of course. What's the life span on the polishing wheels? I know that depends on amount of use, duh, but how do you know when they are really worn out, when the rubber starts showing thru?? Mine look smooth, but still polish and the "color" of the belt looks even. I've heard they can be "refurbished". Is that worth it versus new? My tubing is still nice and supple BTW... Thanks guys for all the answers. The "accumulative" knowledge of the list is priceless. Jeanette Quoting Tim Fisher : > Oiling only goes so far. If it's that far gone (water in the line), > then the rubber seals are shot. I oil mine regularly and have > replaced the seals, leathers and belt twice. Parts wear out, > especially rubber and leather parts operating at relatively high > speeds, under wet conditions, especially with heavy use. The DP > repair kit is worth every penny. From sinico at nbnet.nb.ca Tue Oct 2 14:14:55 2007 From: sinico at nbnet.nb.ca (Hans Durstling) Date: Tue Oct 2 14:06:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts In-Reply-To: <20071002144810.3fu7xejusk00sogk@webmail2.centurytel.net> References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <200710021705.l92H5uv6003924@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071002144810.3fu7xejusk00sogk@webmail2.centurytel.net> Message-ID: Hi all, Just yesterday I dismantled and doctored a Genie which the owner acquired second hand. He says it is 19 years old. This is about the fourth elderly Genie I've disassembled. Based on that I'm inclined to think that a two year old Genie ought not to need parts replaced but more likely only adjusted. In all cases the pump has been a problem upon reassembly. The belt slips, the pump turns slowly if at all making the spray feeble or absent. I've found two main causes for this. One is getting oil on the pump belt. This makes it slip on the pulley. (It is not humanly possible to disassemble clean and oil a machine like a Genie without getting oily fingers.) So corrective measure number one is to clean the oil off the reassembled pump belt with a series of Q-tips soaked in alcohol. It's hard to get at but it can be done. This restores the friction between belt and pulley. Sticking of the pump elements and in particular the piston may also make the pump harder to operate & hence cause the belt to slip. The piston is a leather disc which fits itself snugly to the cylinder walls by dint of running. If you've had the pump apart you will have "deformed" the leather somewhat. So it will at first jam slightly and will need to be run-in a little before it has conformed itself smoothly again against the cylinder walls. With everything cleaned, oiled and reassembled, run the piston in by turning the big pump pulley manually. Stick a wooden dowell or pencil or something into the pulley holes to turn it. This is a good way also to turn the belt to clean the oil off all of it. And while you're at it also degrease the shaft where small pulley that drives the pump belt runs. This little pulley sits loose on the shaft. Only friction turns it. So you want to maximize friction at that spot, not lubricate it. Hope that helps - and remember: your own Genie mileage may vary! Cheers, Hans Durstling Moncton, Canada On 2-Oct-07, at 4:48 PM, geenet@centurytel.net wrote: > I've kept it oiled, but the machine did sit up unused for several > months during > my busy season at my "real" job. Even tho I oiled everything > thoroughly when I > started using it again, that's when I noticed a big change in spray > output, and > the pump did not want to start pumping when the motor started up. It > is almost > two years old now, and I figured those "moving parts" did need > replacing. I > just wanted to know where the best place to get them was. There is a > range of > prices at different sources online. The most expensive of which is > Diamond > Pacific itself. Of course. What's the life span on the polishing > wheels? I know that depends on amount of > use, duh, but how do you know when they are really worn out, when the > rubber > starts showing thru?? Mine look smooth, but still polish and the > "color" of the > belt looks even. I've heard they can be "refurbished". Is that worth > it versus > new? My tubing is still nice and supple BTW... Thanks guys for all the > answers. The "accumulative" knowledge of the list is > priceless. Jeanette > > > > Quoting Tim Fisher : > >> Oiling only goes so far. If it's that far gone (water in the line), >> then the rubber seals are shot. I oil mine regularly and have >> replaced the seals, leathers and belt twice. Parts wear out, >> especially rubber and leather parts operating at relatively high >> speeds, under wet conditions, especially with heavy use. The DP >> repair kit is worth every penny. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Oct 2 14:17:37 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Oct 2 14:17:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report In-Reply-To: <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> I'm working with Larry Rush's sheets of muscovite mica now. Progress: First test: Mica on glass Mica between glass First test was with the raw mica (I also put a piece in there without any glass to "cook" it). The samples were heated to 1450F (standard glass fuse temperature) and held for 15 minutes. The mica between glass made humongous bubbles! There was a lot of air trapped inside the mica, along with who-knows-what. The mica on the glass bonded OK. The mica came out the most amazing shimmery-golden color. Very soft, very flexible...almost like Tyvek! Second test, this time made with the "cooked" mica. Mica on glass Mica on glass with glass frit on top. Mica between two pieces of glass. This time, the bubbles weren't nearly so bad. I think if I hold the glass at 1250F for a while I can force most of the air out. The plain-layer on top was ok. The piece with the glass frit was VERY neat. The glass beaded up on the mica and bonded it nicely to the underlying glass. Right now I've got an 8"x8" piece cooking in the kiln. Two layers of glass for a total of 6mm. This is "standard" thickness for fusing. The cooked mica has been scattered on top and a lot of glass frit sprinkled on that covering the mica almost completely. Schedule (DPH = Degrees F per Hour): 300 DPH to 960 Hold 10 minutes 300 DPH to 1250 Hold 1 hour 300 DPH to 1450 Hold 15 minutes As fast as possible to 960 F Hold for 1 hour (top of anneal) 200 DPH to 700 Hold 1 minute (complete anneal) Kiln OFF and let cool. Pictures to follow late tomorrow when I'm all done! Thanks all... Gary Brown http://www.catspaw-minerals.com Home of the MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk ~ and ~ http://www.fusedlight.com Contemporary Warm Glass From dbomke at insightbb.com Tue Oct 2 16:53:05 2007 From: dbomke at insightbb.com (dbomke) Date: Tue Oct 2 16:52:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Show Announcement - Springfield, Illinois Message-ID: <007401c8054f$606e5d60$fb19884a@D5K94V21> This weekend, Saturday, October 6 and Sunday, October 7, the Lincoln Orbit Earth Science Society (LOESS) will hold it's annual "Gem, Mineral and Fossil Show". The show will be held at the Illinois Building on the State Fairgrounds in Springfield, Illinois. The hours of the show are Saturday - 10 am to 6 pm and Sunday - 10 am to 5 pm. Admission is $2.00 for adults, $1.00 for seniors over 65, and Scouts in Uniform, 4-H groups and children under 12 (with an adult) are admitted free. There will be a display from the Fryxell Geology Museum at Augustana College of the Cryolophosaurus, Elvis, that was discovered in Antartica by Dr. William Hammer. There will also be eight cases of thundereggs from around the world. 11 dealers will have Minerals, Fossils, Jewelry and Equipment. There will be more than a dozen demonstrators of a variety of lapidary techniques - exhibits of fossils, minerals, jewelry, meteorites and geodes - geode cracking - flint knapping - free mineral/rock IDs - a silent auction - many activities for kids - exhibits from the Illinois State Museum and the Illinois State Geological Survey. On Saturday a swap will be held with a great mix of material from club members. There is plenty of free parking and food available on site. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jr50wv at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 18:49:34 2007 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Tue Oct 2 18:49:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Franklin Mineral show report Message-ID: <277779.2074.qm@web56313.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi all: Having missed the whole summer of field collecting (due to major new construction on the farm and new projects at work) I thought I would compensate with a small vacation trip with a brief stop at the Franklin NJ Elementary School. I had never been there, or (that I recall) heard much about what the show was like, so we also visited Philidelphia (Independence Hall, the Philadepphia Museum of Art!) and stayed at an old home converted to a small hotel, the Morris House Hotel. The Franklin Show is in rural New Jersey...really! Rolling hills covered with eastern hardwoods, rivers, ponds, wood ducks calling, really pretty. The small towns on the way to Franklin are very like small towns in other eastern mining districts I have visited, from North Carolina to Maine. The Franklin Elementary School is old but very well kept, and very large. There are two gyms and a theater. Lots of parking, and a lot of outdoor sellers set up with tents and tailgates. My first thought was to quickly walk around the main gym ( I didn't even notice the other one til near the end of my endurance) just to get a grip on who was there selling, and what was for sale that interested me. The theater stage was draped with blackout curtains, and filled with tables draped with black, and covered with rocks, just rocks, but with the various UV lamps, how they did glow. I knew of course that the Ogdensburg ore deposits of Sterling Hill and Franklin were famous for fluorescence - and the glow-worm dealers were here in force. There were rocks that had 4 and 5 different colors of glow, and the colors changed depending upon the frequency of the UV! Kitty, you would think you had gone to glow-worm heaven!! Then I went outside to see what I could see...I wound up buying everything I bought from tailgater sellers. Believe it of not, I didn't buy any of that great fluorescent material. I just never went back in there, don't ask me why. I really enjoy it when I collect or buy a great mineral (or fossil) and it turns out to glow. But I don't really go that hard for rocks that aren't anything special until the UV lamp goes on...don't ask me why. I saw a pretty TN axinite from a bearded guy (but skinny, not big and healthy like me!) and asked how much? Not much, and he thought he had a bigger one, a nice mini...turns out it was Terry Szenics, a really nice guy with good tase in rocks. I bought 'em both quick. Later on, farther out in the field, I ran into John Betts. I have probably bought more rocks from John than anyone else over the years, but he specialized this year in Vaux specimens from the infamous Philadelphia Museum of Natural History (but not rocks, no, none of them!). Some of them were interesting, but not my style...so I looked hard. My favorite was the vivianites, some had tiny crystals, but they were mostly casts and all totally black and opaque. But I chatted with him, he wasn't there to turn over material, just to share some New Jersey history with anyone interested. The ancient hand-written labels were interesting, I do enjoy historic rocks. Right next to him was a nice youngster (younger than me, anyways, I can't tell any more how old people are...) who had mostly cut stones, sapphires from Montana, cut in Thailand. They had a really interesting color, mostly clear transparent, with hints of blue and different hints of orange, hematite, he thought. I bought a 5.something carat stone...a good deal. In retrospect, I should have spent more time in idle conversation, like how did he happen to have these to send to Thailand for cutting, but...I feel like if I'm just shooting the breeze, maybe someone will hesitate to ask a question that would have led to a sale. Well, Martha stayed right with me for a big trip all around once, but when it became obvious I was going to go around again, slower, she bailed out to the car and her book. We always take books on vacation, and keep our eye peeled for book stores on the road, we learned the hard way to take extra folded up duffel bags to fill with books. I almost bought a pretty Uvite tourmaline specimen, gemmy dark red crystals on really sparkley white matrix, probably albite or some similar feldspar? from Hummingbird Minerals, but it was expensive, and I didn't feel like bargaining much. So after another hour or so, I got tired and we headed back to the hotel. I can't remember another time I ran into John Betts and didn't buy anything!! But I made up for it a little today at his weekly new rocks posting -- just so many pretty rocks! We drove home Sunday, over 500 miles, stopped in eastern PA for lunch, and in Morgantown WV at dusk for dinner, and got home about 11 pm...wow were we tired! Fortunately, I previously arranged for a recovery day on Monday. The show was great! I strongly encourage anyone within 1000 miles to make the pilgrimage at least once! John said he sets up inside at the spring show, and I'm sure he will have more flashy specimens with an indoor booth. Well, that's it. We didn't visit either the Franklin Mineral Museum or the Sterling Hill Mine, although I saw it over to the west from the road. Just not enough energy. Hope you enjoy the trip report! I'll take pictures next time...I schlepped cameras all the way for 1200 miles, and didn't take pix one! No one who knows me would believe that, but it's true! JR in WV --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From tam2819 at cox.net Tue Oct 2 19:06:33 2007 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Tue Oct 2 19:06:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] DP & The Genie In-Reply-To: <200710030100.l9310Ax3010342@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710030100.l9310Ax3010342@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <1A28AEA0-1958-417E-A47C-5509A8883F53@cox.net> Diamond Pacific is a family run business of the highest possible ethics. They do not discount their products to the buying public, they direct buyers to their sellers, for lower prices. Their direct price is higher for that reason alone, it is Manufacturers Suggested Retail. Dealers can be very easily found. I have the highest respect for the DePue family, and enjoy their booth in Tucson, as well as Quartzsite. I love visiting their Store in Barstow. They totally support their customers. I know you can get straight answers, simply by calling their 800 number. Terrie I so wish I had a Genie. From smtravis at plateautel.net Tue Oct 2 19:18:44 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Tue Oct 2 19:18:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><717108.90596.qm@web81706.mail.mud.yahoo.com><46FCFD970004A807@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<005401c803d6$3bec3680$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A><002001c8048d$3c8e2eb0$039e5a40@marilyn> <004e01c804ba$61aaa2a0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <015401c80563$b99eea80$039e5a40@marilyn> Talk to Don at Diamond Pacific or if you go to Tucson they set up there. The prices are not cheap but they are new garanteed parts for your machine. and they caqn tell you the easiest way to replace the part. All the best Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanette Wimpee" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts >I need a new belt for the pump. It looks ragged, and I'm not getting a good >"geyser" anymore. Also getting water in the airline...which is >strange....no holes. > Jeanette > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve & Marilyn" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 7:43 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > > >> Diamond pacific has all the parts for a genie but what belt are you >> talking about it is a direct drive motor. The only belt might be on the >> pump? Steve > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 2 19:32:53 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 2 19:33:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Franklin Mineral show report References: <277779.2074.qm@web56313.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4702FF51.31C1@Tomaszewski.net> Thanks JR! Great Trip report. Wish I could have joined you. Kreigh J. R. Hodel wrote: > > Hi all: > > Having missed the whole summer of field collecting (due to major new construction on the farm and new projects at work) I thought I would compensate with a small vacation trip with a brief stop at the Franklin NJ Elementary School. > > I had never been there, or (that I recall) heard much about what the show was like, so we also visited Philidelphia (Independence Hall, the Philadepphia Museum of Art!) and stayed at an old home converted to a small hotel, the Morris House Hotel. > > The Franklin Show is in rural New Jersey...really! Rolling hills covered with eastern hardwoods, rivers, ponds, wood ducks calling, really pretty. The small towns on the way to Franklin are very like small towns in other eastern mining districts I have visited, from North Carolina to Maine. > > JR in WV From smtravis at plateautel.net Tue Oct 2 19:49:51 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Tue Oct 2 19:49:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts References: <001c01c803ba$ecf7ead0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><200710021705.l92H5uv6003924@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071002144810.3fu7xejusk00sogk@webmail2.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <01be01c80568$120eda00$039e5a40@marilyn> I saw a guy on Bobs rock shop in the used equipment section stating he woul re furbish diamond wheels (soft) for 30 each haven't tried it though. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: DP Genie parts > I've kept it oiled, but the machine did sit up unused for several months > during > my busy season at my "real" job. Even tho I oiled everything thoroughly > when I > started using it again, that's when I noticed a big change in spray > output, and > the pump did not want to start pumping when the motor started up. It is > almost > two years old now, and I figured those "moving parts" did need replacing. > I > just wanted to know where the best place to get them was. There is a range > of > prices at different sources online. The most expensive of which is Diamond > Pacific itself. Of course. What's the life span on the polishing wheels? I > know that depends on amount of > use, duh, but how do you know when they are really worn out, when the > rubber > starts showing thru?? Mine look smooth, but still polish and the "color" > of the > belt looks even. I've heard they can be "refurbished". Is that worth it > versus > new? My tubing is still nice and supple BTW... Thanks guys for all the > answers. The "accumulative" knowledge of the list is > priceless. Jeanette > > > > Quoting Tim Fisher : > >> Oiling only goes so far. If it's that far gone (water in the line), >> then the rubber seals are shot. I oil mine regularly and have >> replaced the seals, leathers and belt twice. Parts wear out, >> especially rubber and leather parts operating at relatively high >> speeds, under wet conditions, especially with heavy use. The DP >> repair kit is worth every penny. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From geenet at centurytel.net Tue Oct 2 20:36:15 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Tue Oct 2 20:36:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] DP & The Genie References: <200710030100.l9310Ax3010342@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <1A28AEA0-1958-417E-A47C-5509A8883F53@cox.net> Message-ID: <004301c8056e$8e6c41e0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> That's exactly why I said "of course" to DP being the highest priced. That's what I'd expect a reputable company to do...not undercut their dealers. I had a reason to call them when I first got my Genie, they were very nice and helpful. It seems the concensus opinion is to go ahead and get the repair kit directly from DP. I haven't been able to find a "kit" anywhere else. Found the belt, tho. Since my cabbing work is separated by periods of non-use....things like weddings, work, newborn grandkids, and puppy litters tend to curtail cabbing.....all those working parts sit there and dry out and stiffen up. That's probably worse than everyday use. I give up...calling DP in the morning. Jeanette PS: I offered to paint a sign on each side of the business my son-in-law was working for, and got paid $1400 just about enough for the Genie. Shortly afterward, since he wasn't gettin paid by the guy for HIS work, my son-in-law quit, but I had my Genie by then! : [Rockhounds] DP & The Genie > Diamond Pacific is a family run business of the highest possible ethics. > They do not discount their products to the buying public, they direct > buyers to their sellers, for lower prices. > > Their direct price is higher for that reason alone, it is Manufacturers > Suggested Retail. Dealers can be very easily found. I have the highest > respect for the DePue family, and enjoy their booth in Tucson, as well as > Quartzsite. I love visiting their Store in Barstow. They totally support > their customers. > > I know you can get straight answers, simply by calling their 800 number. > > Terrie > I so wish I had a Genie. > -- From brenick at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 09:53:13 2007 From: brenick at gmail.com (Nick & Brenda Van Dyke) Date: Wed Oct 3 09:53:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report In-Reply-To: <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush> <000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <97175ae90710030953h1a2ca5e7s5f35355f35e8242e@mail.gmail.com> very interesting Larry, but why, oh why are you doing it? On 10/2/07, Gary Brown wrote: > > I'm working with Larry Rush's sheets of muscovite mica now. Progress: > > First test: > > Mica on glass > Mica between glass > > First test was with the raw mica (I also put a piece in there without any > glass to "cook" it). The samples were heated to 1450F (standard glass > fuse > temperature) and held for 15 minutes. > > The mica between glass made humongous bubbles! There was a lot of air > trapped inside the mica, along with who-knows-what. > The mica on the glass bonded OK. > > The mica came out the most amazing shimmery-golden color. Very soft, very > flexible...almost like Tyvek! > > Second test, this time made with the "cooked" mica. > > Mica on glass > Mica on glass with glass frit on top. > Mica between two pieces of glass. > > This time, the bubbles weren't nearly so bad. I think if I hold the glass > at 1250F for a while I can force most of the air out. > > The plain-layer on top was ok. > > The piece with the glass frit was VERY neat. The glass beaded up on the > mica and bonded it nicely to the underlying glass. > > Right now I've got an 8"x8" piece cooking in the kiln. Two layers of > glass > for a total of 6mm. This is "standard" thickness for fusing. The cooked > mica has been scattered on top and a lot of glass frit sprinkled on that > covering the mica almost completely. Schedule (DPH = Degrees F per Hour): > > 300 DPH to 960 Hold 10 minutes > 300 DPH to 1250 Hold 1 hour > 300 DPH to 1450 Hold 15 minutes > As fast as possible to 960 F Hold for 1 hour (top of anneal) > 200 DPH to 700 Hold 1 minute (complete anneal) > Kiln OFF and let cool. > > Pictures to follow late tomorrow when I'm all done! > > Thanks all... > > Gary Brown > http://www.catspaw-minerals.com > Home of the MasMils/PLUS Mine Location Disk > > ~ and ~ > > http://www.fusedlight.com > Contemporary Warm Glass > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 09:54:43 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Oct 3 09:54:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Microminerals from Sauktown Sales Message-ID: <700529.61255.qm@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Another update to my list of microminerals will be posted today. This month there's a lot of material from Australia, including Hillite from Reaphook Hill and Decrespignyite-(Y) from the Patatoo Mine. I'm also posting the next installment of the Dryer collection. At the rate that's going, it could take another year to get it all listed! Hopefully, I'll have more time as winter sets in, though. There are also a few new thumbnails. Note that the "new" list doesn't show any pictures. To see pictures of the Dryer material or the thumbnails, you have to go to the alphabetical or complete listings. A few weeks ago I went on a field trip with the Friends of Mineralogy- Midwest Chapter to the GenLime Quarry in Genoa, Ohio. I'm posting a report, with pictures, of that trip as well. Follow the links in the Field Trips section of the website. Jim Daly Sauktown Sales www.sauktown.com --------------------------------- Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Wed Oct 3 10:45:18 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Wed Oct 3 10:45:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report In-Reply-To: <97175ae90710030953h1a2ca5e7s5f35355f35e8242e@mail.gmail.com> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <97175ae90710030953h1a2ca5e7s5f35355f35e8242e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <017901c805e5$2a0b4350$6b01a8c0@okapi> Because I can! Mica as a powder has been used on fused glass for some time. I figured to give big sheets a shot. Since I've been on the rockhound's list since the mid 80's, who better to go to for mica? (and it's Gary not Larry ) After I'm done with the holiday season fuse-a-million-pieces rush I'm going to work on a whole series of rock & mineral related pieces, kind of like the one that's on the front of my glass web page: http://www.fusedlight.com . That may look like rock up at the top, but its glass. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Nick & Brenda Van Dyke > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:53 AM > To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report > > very interesting Larry, but why, oh why are you doing it? From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Wed Oct 3 11:15:12 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Wed Oct 3 11:15:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report In-Reply-To: <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush> <000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Thanks for the report, Gary. I have a regular pottery kiln as well as an annealing one, and have always thought I should try glass. I remember as a teenager I had a neighbor, a very elderly lady who was an artist and crafter, and was fascinated with the jewelry she made---with shaking, arthritis-bent hands---out of glass she melted in her little kiln. I've wondered about using a little bit of olivine-rich sand from Green Sand Beach with glass, but speculated that the bits of basalt and coral in that sand would probably not work well. But I should try. I appreciate that you are keeping good records. I'm reminded of an experiment I made a few years ago just for fun: I did a "primitive firing" of clay gathered here from sugar cane fields and road cuts (lots of good red clay here on the Big Island); the clay was fired in a pit in the ground with hot coals underneath and dry leaves and grass on top, and then when the stuff on top was burning well, the pit was closed with a wet tarp---a bit like an imu for cooking kalua pig. I had painted each clay piece with a different combination of dirt, fireplace ash, rust, etc, and since I was just doing it for fun, I didn't keep records of what the "glaze" ingredients were. When we opened the pit and took the pieces out, several were broken, of course (that happens in primitive firing), but one had the most beautiful copper-colored, somewhat iridescent, translucent shiny surface I've ever seen. And I had no idea how I'd made that glaze! I've tried several times since to reproduce it, with no luck. I'm sure that most people on this List are of at least a slightly scientific mind, so they wouldn't be as stupid as I was! But I learned my lesson and now keep as accurate records as possible, even for fun experiments. Aloha,Kitty At 11:17 AM 10/2/2007, you wrote: >I'm working with Larry Rush's sheets of muscovite mica now. Progress: > >First test: > >Mica on glass >Mica between glass > >First test was with the raw mica (I also put a piece in there without any >glass to "cook" it). The samples were heated to 1450F (standard glass fuse >temperature) and held for 15 minutes. From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Wed Oct 3 11:26:53 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Wed Oct 3 11:26:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report In-Reply-To: <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <019401c805ea$f98af9e0$6b01a8c0@okapi> It's fun experimenting. You should give glasswork a shot in your kiln. The only hassle is that you don't have top kiln elements...those are up there to give a nice even heat to a cooking sheet of glass. As you can imagine, uneven heating on a sheet of glass can have "interesting" effects. You could give the sand a shot, but chances are the resulting piece with the sand IN the glass would explode. The differing coefficients of expansion between the glass and sand would crack the glass when it got down to around 500F. Now, glass sprinkled ON the glass might be kind of neat. If there were just a little bit of it the COE differences might not be too bad. The trouble with that is that the olivine has a melting point of 3400F. The glass (at least the kind of glass I work at) is fused at around 1450F. Come to think of it, beds of olivine sand are actually used as casting BEDS...the glass on top of it doesn't stick! If you want some info...pop me a note off list and I'll get you some references. BTW... I've got a re-fuse of last night's fuse cooking right now. It's coming along OK, and I think after a couple of more shots I'll have a process worked out. Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Kitty & Bill Heacox > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 1:15 PM > To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report > > Thanks for the report, Gary. I have a regular pottery kiln > as well as an annealing one, and have always thought I should > try glass. I remember as a teenager I had a neighbor, a very > elderly lady who was an artist and crafter, and was > fascinated with the jewelry she made---with shaking, > arthritis-bent hands---out of glass she melted in her little > kiln. I've wondered about using a little bit of olivine-rich > sand from Green Sand Beach with glass, but speculated that > the bits of basalt and coral in that sand would probably not > work well. But I should try...... From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 02:05:05 2007 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Thu Oct 4 02:05:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Online Geological /Geophysical /Topological Map resources Message-ID: <814848.42587.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Having received some request for more online map information, here are some tips for locating free on line maps.(Primarily USA). The good news is that there is a federal program to publish digital products online that will provide complete national coverage. The bad news is that it is a federal program... subject to manpower and funding constraints but it is a very good start. The Internet is a source for many maps of other countries. I have viewed geological maps of Oman and even the Moon and Mars online. Geological and Geophysical Maps: Finding The Map you need: Traditionally, one went to a state bookstore to purchased a paper map hoping it was still in print. The trend today is to publish them online with free access. Tennessee will no longer be printing maps in advance. Maps that aren?t online can be purchased for $20 a map, printed straight from a digital file. The quick and easy solution for links to state geological maps is About.com AND/OR About.com pre-searches and assembles all types of classes of information. If you go to their Geology or Maps sections and poke around there are pages for State Geological Maps AND State Geological Organizations. (There is also with similar sources.) They also list state authorities and link to their websites. Once in those you may frequently find a free downloadable map for the local area you are looking for. The USGS , as mentioned above has taken great steps to centralize the search for geological maps. State and regional authorities aren't uniformly named. In many states they are under DNR(Dept. of Nat'l. Resources) some are under State Mining authorities, some are simply quasi-public such as Geological Society(e.g. Alabama). About.com lists them all. You can also Google for maps but it can be trial and error to structure your inquiry given the lack of standardization. The US Geological Survey has a master database of maps both online and paper at this portal: --unfortunately it has a convoluted search system, having recently merged other catalogs. Of note: Kentucky is one of the only states that has placed it's entire geological map quads set online. Back Doors: Owing to forward thinking, many states and federal agencies have designated certain public and university libraries as repositories for map products even for far away places. Some of those libraries have scanned paper maps into their online collections even where states have not. These are usually in Adobe Acrobat Format as they weren?t generated digitally. Some maps generated for say an environmental project or mining district will include bedrock geological information. I searched for years for any copy of an out of print Pennsylvania map only to find it in online in a California University system. So if you don?t find it initially get creative in your searches. What Maps there maybe: Quads (short for Quadrangles: the basic map sheet format) are "indexed", usually on a state map which graphically shows the name and position of all the quad map sheets in that state. Some indexes will just show the name of the map sheet. In that case you can always fall back on the Federal "Index of Topo (topological)" maps to locate the name of the sheet you are looking for. Geological quads follow the name of the topo quads, which in turn are named after a town, community, or feature fond on that sheet. The sheet will be named at the top and have the names of the eight adjacent sheets around the edges. Quads come in different scales aka sizes-- the basic size is called the 7.5 minute Quad because it spans 7.5 minutes of latitude and 7.5 minutes of longitude(high latitudes of course cover more than 7.5 minutes owing to convergence of longitude towards the poles). I won?t cover map reading here because there are several online lessons on how to read topological and geological maps. In the interest of brevity I suggest one google "How to read a topo/geological/map etc." Quads also come in larger formats which may include several portions of states. For example the Knoxville, TN Quad covers parts of 10 states. This brings up regional/ special geological maps(e.g. The Grand Canyon, New Madrid Seismic Zone, etc.) These may cover parts of several quads. Geological quads may be published in bedrock or surfacial versions in glaciated areas where one needs to distinguish between ancient and tertiary-aged deposits. Printed quads falling along political boundaries are occasionally truncated to the parts within the state publishing the map, however, the digital quads usually will include the full map data from adjacent parts which overlap state lines. Sometimes you can get geological data by reverse searching adjacent state quad indexes to find published data when the home state hasn't published their maps online. Digital maps follow formats which are derived from standard data systems (e.g.GIS,GMLJP2,GML, GPX etc.) which tends to produce huge files too large for many home systems to display, but don?t dispair. There is a free program called "ExpressView" (formerly Mr SID Browser Plug-In) which makes the maps available in great detail on home computers which won?t max out memory. LizardTech is the publisher and the map reader is free to download and use. There are a mix of plug-ins and standalone applications for WIN and Mac OSX Two other resources of mention are Google Earth and a software program called TerraBrowser. When you need something more or on the road: Sometimes the geological map is just a black and white miniture overlay (e.g. Pennsylvania DNR Map6). Sometimes you are looking for a dig site,a reported meteorite fall or, one wants to hook it to a GPS/Laptop. A topo is what may be the only thing available. One can find most topo maps at the above state and federal sources. One can also purchase state and national digital map sets that have different complete of detail. I use Topo USA and National Geographic ?BackRoads Explorer? to supplement the online resources. I also have a modem compatible cell phone when I find myself on a road trip and happen upon a geological curiosity. This post is a far from exhaustive list of resources but a good place to start. Fortunately, the internet is one giant map room. Elton From brenick at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 06:56:16 2007 From: brenick at gmail.com (Nick & Brenda Van Dyke) Date: Thu Oct 4 06:56:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report In-Reply-To: <017901c805e5$2a0b4350$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush> <000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <97175ae90710030953h1a2ca5e7s5f35355f35e8242e@mail.gmail.com> <017901c805e5$2a0b4350$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <97175ae90710040656q77febf72y74e522a557ba8079@mail.gmail.com> Sorry Lar...I mean Gary :o) after seeing your site, it all becomes clear...absolutly beautiful, and I can see where it would be very interesting work! Brenda On 10/3/07, Gary Brown wrote: > > Because I can! > > Mica as a powder has been used on fused glass for some time. I figured to > give big sheets a shot. Since I've been on the rockhound's list since the > mid 80's, who better to go to for mica? > > (and it's Gary not Larry ) > > After I'm done with the holiday season fuse-a-million-pieces rush I'm > going > to work on a whole series of rock & mineral related pieces, kind of like > the > one that's on the front of my glass web page: http://www.fusedlight.com . > That may look like rock up at the top, but its glass. > > GcB > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > > Nick & Brenda Van Dyke > > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:53 AM > > To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > > mailing list for rock and gem collectors > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report > > > > very interesting Larry, but why, oh why are you doing it? > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 4 10:09:42 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Oct 4 11:31:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Online Geological /Geophysical /Topological Map resources In-Reply-To: <814848.42587.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814848.42587.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470437B6000219E5@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Thank you Elton!! A very thorough and useful post. Aloha, Kitty At 11:05 PM 10/3/2007, Elton wrote: >Having received some request for more online map >information, here are some tips for locating free on >line maps.(Primarily USA). The good news is that >there is a federal program to publish digital products >online that will provide complete national coverage. >The bad news is that it is a federal program... >subject to manpower and funding constraints but it is >a very good start. The Internet is a source for many >maps of other countries. I have viewed geological maps >of Oman and even the Moon and Mars online. From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 4 13:15:50 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Thu Oct 4 13:16:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals Message-ID: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. She asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide the coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used Hematite and Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they used for clothing dyes seem all to be organic and plant based. I have also heard of some minerals used for facial decor, such as eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. But I couldn't come up with any soluble minerals that could color inks. Any suggestions? Thanks....Larry Rush "Noel Coward thought work was more fun than play, but he never, ever worked in the mines" --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 13:41:10 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Oct 4 13:41:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals In-Reply-To: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: Well there's Prussian Blue but I believe it is synthetic not naturally occurring: Iron salts are used in blue and black ink otherwise. I think it was made by combining iron salt with oak extracts...yeah here it is: BK On 10/4/07, Lawrence Rush wrote: > > I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. She > asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide the > coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used Hematite and > Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they used for clothing dyes > seem all to be organic and plant based. I have also heard of some minerals > used for facial decor, such as eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. > But I couldn't come up with any soluble minerals that could color inks. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks....Larry Rush > > > "Noel Coward thought work was more fun than play, but he never, ever > worked in the mines" > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 13:42:19 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Oct 4 13:42:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals In-Reply-To: References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: Prussian Blue paste by the way was the source of great merriment in the US Navy. But we were easily amused. BK On 10/4/07, J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > Well there's Prussian Blue but I believe it is synthetic not naturally > occurring: > > > > Iron salts are used in blue and black ink otherwise. I think it was made > by combining iron salt with oak extracts...yeah here it is: > > > > BK > > On 10/4/07, Lawrence Rush wrote: > > > > I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. She > > asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide the > > coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used Hematite and > > Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they used for clothing dyes > > seem all to be organic and plant based. I have also heard of some minerals > > used for facial decor, such as eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. > > But I couldn't come up with any soluble minerals that could color inks. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Thanks....Larry Rush > > > > > > "Noel Coward thought work was more fun than play, but he never, ever > > worked in the mines" > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > > -- > J Bryan Kramer > North Florida, USA > photos at: > http://pbase.com/photoburner -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca Thu Oct 4 14:12:22 2007 From: kaydavis at estrie.qc.ca (Kay Davis) Date: Thu Oct 4 14:12:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals In-Reply-To: References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <008b01c806cb$4421c250$5a3ba8c0@D8YF2G81> If you do a google using the search term inks in antiquity you will find lots of references A different approach is that I also remembered a article of poisoning in antiquity because of the use of Cinnabar (Mercury compounds) and lead compounds in makeup ( which could be used in inks as well I did a google using the search terms eye makeup cinnabar EGYPT then I added a couple of exclusions to get rid of repeated modern references eye makeup cinnabar EGYPT -ebay -mary if you ignore the modern references there are some specs of gold in the sand ... Here is an interesting presentation www.joolzfx.com/essays/Ancient%20Cosmetic%20toxicology.ppt Hope this helps Kay -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: October 4, 2007 4:41 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals Well there's Prussian Blue but I believe it is synthetic not naturally occurring: Iron salts are used in blue and black ink otherwise. I think it was made by combining iron salt with oak extracts...yeah here it is: BK On 10/4/07, Lawrence Rush wrote: > > I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. She > asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide the > coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used Hematite and > Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they used for clothing dyes > seem all to be organic and plant based. I have also heard of some minerals > used for facial decor, such as eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. > But I couldn't come up with any soluble minerals that could color inks. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks....Larry Rush > > > "Noel Coward thought work was more fun than play, but he never, ever > worked in the mines" > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From rik.dillen at skynet.be Thu Oct 4 14:29:05 2007 From: rik.dillen at skynet.be (Rik Dillen) Date: Thu Oct 4 14:29:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals In-Reply-To: References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <008d01c806cd$9767be40$c6373ac0$@dillen@skynet.be> This Prussian Blue story reminds me an experience I had about 45 years ago (at the age of about 12). I was one of those stupid children that spent the little bit of money they had not on candy or toys, but I saved the money to buy a small bottle of K-ferrocyanide and other such stuff (I had e.g. a bottle of phosphorus in the cellar, and enough other products for a small terroristic attack :>)) I discovered in one of those recipe books that adding a drop of K-ferrocyanide solution to something that contained Fe yielded an intensive blue color (yes, Prussian blue). I went into the garden, where my father had arranged proudly many decorative rocks, and applied a drop of hydrochloric acid on such a rock + a drop of K-ferrocyanide solution to see if it contained Fe. And of course it did, as all rocks contain enough Fe to yield Prussian blue. I tried it on a second rock, an third etc. and an hour later all rocks in the garden had a nice dark-blue stain. No problem, I thought... just clean the rocks with some water... oh no, impossible to get rid of the blue stain... after all, the whole garden had to be rearranged, and almost 100 rocks had to be turned upside down. Lesson : learn your children to play computer games instead of messing around with chemicals :>) Greetings, Rik DILLEN Doornstraat 15, B-9170 Sint-Gillis-Waas Belgium E-mail rik.dillen@skynet.be Homepage : http://users.skynet.be/rik.dillen >>> Belgian minerals >>> An own find on a Korean (and now again on a Guinean) postage stamp ! >>> Exchange list MINERANT 2008 - 26-27 April 2008 Bouwcentrum (Antwerp Expo) Jan Van Rijswijcklaan 191 Antwerpen http://www.minerant.org/mka/minerantnl.html Mineral collector's page http://www.minerant.org/ -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of J Bryan Kramer Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:41 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals Well there's Prussian Blue but I believe it is synthetic not naturally occurring: Iron salts are used in blue and black ink otherwise. I think it was made by combining iron salt with oak extracts...yeah here it is: BK On 10/4/07, Lawrence Rush wrote: > > I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. She > asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide the > coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used Hematite and > Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they used for clothing dyes > seem all to be organic and plant based. I have also heard of some minerals > used for facial decor, such as eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. > But I couldn't come up with any soluble minerals that could color inks. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks....Larry Rush From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 4 14:36:27 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Oct 4 14:37:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals In-Reply-To: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <47030613000601ED@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) This isn't very profound, but the clay-rich soils of Hawaii make very permanent dyes, as in Red Dirt Shirts ( http://www.dirtshirt.com/ ). I imagine red soil would exist in other places, and anyone who has tried to launder such dirt stains from clothing would attest to their effective permanence. Should work for ink as well for a rich reddish brown. Aloha, Kitty At 10:15 AM 10/4/2007, Larry Rush wrote: >I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. >She asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide >the coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used >Hematite and Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they >used for clothing dyes seem all to be organic and plant based. I >have also heard of some minerals used for facial decor, such as >eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. But I couldn't come up >with any soluble minerals that could color inks. > >Any suggestions? > >Thanks....Larry Rush From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Thu Oct 4 14:46:22 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Thu Oct 4 14:47:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <003c01c806d0$070e48c0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Larry, Iron, copper. lead, salt, lamp black, chalk, azurite, egg shells, mercury, tin, "brimstone" (sulfur), gold, zinc, clay, pumice, lime and lapis have all been used in inks. Alcohol (often wine) was used as a preservative. I have a book called "Manuscript Inks" by Jack C. Thompson, Caber Press, 1996, but it is out of print. I could copy some recipes if your friend is interested. John From geenet at centurytel.net Thu Oct 4 17:21:48 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Thu Oct 4 17:22:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> <47030613000601ED@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <002601c806e5$b971f5b0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Anyone who's ever played in the dirt (red clay) of Alabama or Georgia will attest to the durability of the colors. There's a lady in Alabama who made a mint marketing "Alabama Red Dirt Shirts" in the gift shops many years ago. We bought a naturally dyed, from some kind of lava, gray "dirt shirt" while we were in Hawaii. Got the gray cuz we had had plenty of unintentional red dirt shirts in our lifetime. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" > This isn't very profound, but the clay-rich soils of Hawaii make very > permanent dyes, as in Red Dirt Shirts > ( http://www.dirtshirt.com/ ). I imagine red soil would exist in > other places, and anyone who has tried to launder such dirt stains from > clothing would attest to their effective permanence. Should work for ink > as well for a rich reddish brown. > > Aloha, Kitty > From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Thu Oct 4 18:24:21 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Thu Oct 4 18:24:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens Message-ID: <001001c806ee$755d48d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> A question from a friend of mine who is a museum curator: Do you know of any good reference materials on the care of radioactive geologic specimens? Anything,... books, articles,... especially something covering the basics. I will forward any answers to him. Thanks! Alan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 4 18:28:50 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 4 18:25:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <4705927D.171D@Tomaszewski.net> Larry, Do a Google search for 'natural mineral pigments'. There is also a discussion on this in the list archives (Nov 2004 IIRC). Kreigh Lawrence Rush wrote: > > I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. She asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide the coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used Hematite and Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they used for clothing dyes seem all to be organic and plant based. I have also heard of some minerals used for facial decor, such as eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. But I couldn't come up with any soluble minerals that coul > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks....Larry Rush > > "Noel Coward thought work was more fun than play, but he never, ever worked in the mines" > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 4 19:32:22 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 4 19:28:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens References: <001001c806ee$755d48d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <4705A158.484@Tomaszewski.net> Alan, An excellent introduction to collecting radioactive minerals safely can be found at http://www.crscientific.com/radiation.html. An alternative is http://www.uraniumminerals.com/Notes/Handling.htm. I would emphasize that you need to take good precautions against accidental ingestion/inhalation of radioactive material. Wash up immediately after handling a radioactive specimen -- before you have an opportunity to touch something else and leave residue that you could later pick up accidently. Don't do something foolish with your specimens that creates dust. Kids, pets, and ignorant adults need barriers or close supervision. Know what you have and how radioactive it is. Remember that radation dangers are cumulative over time. Kreigh Alan Goldstein wrote: > > A question from a friend of mine who is a museum curator: > > Do you know of any good reference materials on the care of radioactive geologic specimens? Anything,... books, articles,... especially something covering the basics. > > I will forward any answers to him. > > Thanks! > > Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Fri Oct 5 07:50:59 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Fri Oct 5 07:51:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] ADVERTISEMENT - ConnRox Minerals References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <000601c8075f$24b7c510$d9f9d04c@LarryRush> I have done over my web site, and think it is more attractive and easier to use. To try it out, I am running a sale....20% off of everything, until November 1. Please stop by, take a look, and let me know how it looks to you! I would appreciate your feedback! www.ConnRoxMinerals.com Thanks....Larry Rush From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Fri Oct 5 08:28:13 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Oct 5 08:28:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens In-Reply-To: <001001c806ee$755d48d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <001001c806ee$755d48d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000c01c80764$58198290$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Alan, Let your friend e-mail his problem to www@belspo.be (Belgian Science Policy helpsite) or go via their web site http://www.belspo.be/belspo/about/phonbook/phone_en.stm Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Alan Goldstein > Verzonden: vrijdag 5 oktober 2007 2:24 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens > > A question from a friend of mine who is a museum curator: > > Do you know of any good reference materials on the care of > radioactive geologic specimens? Anything,... books, > articles,... especially something covering the basics. > > I will forward any answers to him. > > Thanks! > > Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From albalmer at att.net Fri Oct 5 09:12:41 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Fri Oct 5 09:12:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ink coloring minerals In-Reply-To: <47030613000601ED@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <001201c806c3$61df1b60$9460234b@LarryRush> <47030613000601ED@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <3hocg39b3hu93457sa73qokvlhip2rpn42@4ax.com> On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:36:27 -1000, Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: >This isn't very profound, but the clay-rich soils of Hawaii make very >permanent dyes, as in Red Dirt Shirts > ( http://www.dirtshirt.com/ ). I imagine red soil would exist >in other places, and anyone who has tried to launder such dirt stains >from clothing would attest to their effective permanence. Should >work for ink as well for a rich reddish brown. I can vouch for the clothing dye. I still have clothes that were "dyed" years ago in the mines in Mt Ida. > >Aloha, Kitty > >At 10:15 AM 10/4/2007, Larry Rush wrote: >>I have an artist friend who is experimenting with home-made inks. >>She asked me for mineral samples which she could grind up to provide >>the coloring agent for these inks. I know the Native Americans used >>Hematite and Limonite to make "ochres", but the other colors they >>used for clothing dyes seem all to be organic and plant based. I >>have also heard of some minerals used for facial decor, such as >>eye-shadowing and rouge in the Middle Ages. But I couldn't come up >>with any soluble minerals that could color inks. >> >>Any suggestions? >> >>Thanks....Larry Rush -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From efkern at earthlink.net Fri Oct 5 12:57:39 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Fri Oct 5 12:57:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens References: <001001c806ee$755d48d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000c01c80764$58198290$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <000901c80789$fc9b2880$9efaf604@TheBlackAdder> Axel, I went to the Belgian 'Science Policy' website and browsed around using the links. From what I've read there, it's the last place I would look seeking scientific advice. Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: Axel Emmermann To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 8:28 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens Alan, Let your friend e-mail his problem to www@belspo.be (Belgian Science Policy helpsite) or go via their web site http://www.belspo.be/belspo/about/phonbook/phone_en.stm Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Alan Goldstein > Verzonden: vrijdag 5 oktober 2007 2:24 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens > > A question from a friend of mine who is a museum curator: > > Do you know of any good reference materials on the care of > radioactive geologic specimens? Anything,... books, > articles,... especially something covering the basics. > > I will forward any answers to him. > > Thanks! > > Alan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gemnance at houston.rr.com Fri Oct 5 14:26:40 2007 From: gemnance at houston.rr.com (Jim Nance) Date: Fri Oct 5 14:26:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Southern California Locations Message-ID: <200710052126.l95LQe5x003884@comcast-smtp-02.tampflrdc.rr.com> I will be in southern California in November for site seeing and rock collecting. Can anyone give me current information on thefollowing sites: Owlhead Mountains smoky quartz Big Pine smoky quartz Lone Pine amazonite & beryl Opal Mountain Thanks Jim Nance From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Oct 5 18:07:20 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Oct 5 18:07:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Al Ordway Message-ID: <003701c807b5$3f476e20$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I got this e-mail today from the wife of Al Ordway, a well-known California mineral collector. He had e-mailed me about obtaining a nice benstonite specimen about two weeks ago. Alan Dear Friends, Please forgive me for e-mailing instead of calling, but there has been so much to do and many phone calls to make, so I'm notifying as many people as possible by e-mail. Al passed away as a result of an apparent heart attack on Saturday, September 29 as he was collecting at Soda Lake in San Luis Obispo County. It was a place we had enjoyed spending many happy hours at, and he was doing what he loved most. It had been 13 years since his last attack, and from that time up until the present, he was in remarkably good health and continued to stay active, field collect and do the things he enjoyed, so we have much to thank God for. We are honoring Al's request that no services be held. Al deeply appreciated your friendship and shared interest in mineralogy. Sincerely, Betty Ordway eaord98@verizon.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kcbaran at arczip.com Fri Oct 5 18:49:28 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Fri Oct 5 19:02:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Al Ordway In-Reply-To: <003701c807b5$3f476e20$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> References: <003701c807b5$3f476e20$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <4706E9A8.8090504@arczip.com> Ya know, when it is "our" time to go, I guess this is the best way....doing something we love doing. I had an uncle, who had just got home from playing 18 holes of golf, poured himself a glass of his favorite scotch, took a sip and died from a heart attack, Didn't spill a drop of his scotch either, and he actually had a smile on his face. Chuck Baran Alan Goldstein wrote: >I got this e-mail today from the wife of Al Ordway, a well-known California mineral collector. He had e-mailed me about obtaining a nice benstonite specimen about two weeks ago. > >Alan > >Dear Friends, > >Please forgive me for e-mailing instead of calling, but there has been so much to do and many phone calls to make, so I'm notifying as many people as possible by e-mail. > >Al passed away as a result of an apparent heart attack on Saturday, September 29 as he was collecting at Soda Lake in San Luis Obispo County. It was a place we had enjoyed spending many happy hours at, and he was doing what he loved most. It had been 13 years since his last attack, and from that time up until the present, he was in remarkably good health and continued to stay active, field collect and do the things he enjoyed, so we have much to thank God for. We are honoring Al's >request that no services be held. > >Al deeply appreciated your friendship and shared interest in mineralogy. > >Sincerely, >Betty Ordway >eaord98@verizon.net > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > From kcbaran at arczip.com Fri Oct 5 18:52:40 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Fri Oct 5 19:05:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Southern California Locations In-Reply-To: <200710052126.l95LQe5x003884@comcast-smtp-02.tampflrdc.rr.com> References: <200710052126.l95LQe5x003884@comcast-smtp-02.tampflrdc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4706EA68.5030104@arczip.com> I was at Big Pine last spring. What would you like to know? Chuck Baran Jim Nance wrote: >I will be in southern California in November for site seeing and rock >collecting. >Can anyone give me current information on thefollowing sites: > Owlhead Mountains smoky quartz > Big Pine smoky quartz >Lone Pine amazonite & beryl >Opal Mountain > >Thanks >Jim Nance > > > > From anotherbrightidea at hotmail.com Fri Oct 5 21:25:03 2007 From: anotherbrightidea at hotmail.com (Douglas Turet) Date: Fri Oct 5 21:25:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Larry Rush's "Ink Coloring" and "ConnRox" site (both) In-Reply-To: <200710060101.l9611TKF013167@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710060101.l9611TKF013167@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Hi Larry, "Gee, I really like what you've done with the place!" Your new website is easy to maneuver, easy to see, and if you still have that Vermont Grossularite specimen this time, next week, I'll see to it that you don't still have it on the following Monday! (There was one thing that stood out as a possible 'faux pas', at least to my eyes: on the last page, you offer what appears to be a Rutile sixling -- a notion further supported by the 60 degree twinning shown in the photo -- but have it listed as an "eightling". Am I missing something?) As for your friend's quest for natural mineral stains & dyes, both Malachite and Azurite make exceptional pigments, especially when finely pulverized and folded into a linseed oil carrier. For that matter, so does Lapis Lazuli, whose use as such dates back several thousand years, at least, and was used by many of the Great Masters of the Renaissance and Romantic periods. Turquoise works well too, but the only carriers I know of which will not turn it green are denatured alcohol and things which, when dissolved in it, will not adversely alter this characteristic (like pale amber shellac and paraffin). Of course, the alcohol carries its own set of risks. Obviously, Cinnabar and Realgar are as notorious for their dyeing characteristics as they are for incautious users' "dying characteristics" {:o)! Now, if she's willing to consider the use of natural _plant_ dyes, my youth in the 1960's and '70's might offer her some options... Here are a few to get her started... Crushed, unripe pokeberries yield a bright, light green (reminiscent of ripe celery), while their ripe iterations yield an intense, reddish "Siberian" purple. One caveat with the ripe pokeberries (and the leaves and stalks adjacent to them: once the berries turn purple, both their juices and those in the rest of the plant become toxic, and can be absorbed through the skin. (So, even if she _liked_ having hands that would seem to indicate she'd just robbed a bank, that notoriety could cost her in other ways!) Other easily foraged flora include sumac berries, whose clusters will yield various shades of slightly yellowish red and pink (envision the shades of Mozambiqui Rose Almandine and Rose Malaya Garnets, at 30% of their usual saturations, for the maximum saturations possible there), boiled maple, aspen, walnut and oak leaves will yield an assortment of browns (as will black teas, for slightly redder browns, and coffees, for slightly "weathered", grayish- browns). Nice, bright oranges can be wrested from the crushed berries of the bittersweet, pale to pastel yellows, from forsythia and saturated chrome yellows, from goldenrod. As Al Balmer has correctly pointed out, Hawaiian red dirt will do a nice job of producing the russet- browns, and, as anyone who's ever collected them (or their wives) can attest, so will both limonite and bauxite! Oh -- two more things about the sumacs -- if your friend _does_ opt to try the sumac berries, she'll need to know that the cilia on them can be a source of mild irritations for those with sensitive skin. To get around this, have her first dye the articles in question, then toss them in her laundry dryer's "air fluff" cycle on high heat (for colorfastness) with an old (previously cleaned) pair of canvas sneakers, or white tennis balls. These will have the same effect as caning an old carpet over a railing. And, finally, be sure she knows it's the tree-borne sumacs (whose opposite-pair leaf clusters almost exactly mimic those of the locust tree) she's after, and NOT the infamous West Coast ground cover, poison sumac. (Then again, if the proliferation of tatoos, body piercings and other self-mutilations I'm seeing lately is any indication, who knows? She might just find herself at the avant garde of an entirely new West Coast fashion craze, by offering clothes that not only wear well, but itch ferociously, too!) Well, Larry, I think that that about taps my "natural dyes" reserves! I hope this info helps her out in her new endeavor, and please pass along my best wishes, to that effect! All the best, Doug Douglas Turet, GJ Turet Design P. O. Box 242 Avon, MA 02322 U.S.A. Tel. (508) 586-5690 Fax: (508) 586-5677 Email: anotherbrightidea.AT.hotmail.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Oct 5 22:23:15 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Oct 5 22:23:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals Message-ID: We have a son-in-law heading to Afghanistan soon. Lucky for us he has taken an interest in rocks, minerals, and fossils! Do any of you have suggestions and pointers for him to look for while he is there? Thanks in advance, Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kcbaran at arczip.com Fri Oct 5 22:54:36 2007 From: kcbaran at arczip.com (Charles Baran) Date: Fri Oct 5 23:00:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4707231C.5050107@arczip.com> Please let me say to your son-in-law, from an old Vietnam Vet, Thank you, stay safe and God bless you. Chuck Baran Glenn Wimpee wrote: >We have a son-in-law heading to Afghanistan soon. > >Lucky for us he has taken an interest in rocks, minerals, and fossils! > >Do any of you have suggestions and pointers for him to look for while he is there? > >Thanks in advance, >Glenn >_________________________________________________________________ >Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. >http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- > > From rhill at lpl.arizona.edu Fri Oct 5 23:07:26 2007 From: rhill at lpl.arizona.edu (Rik Hill) Date: Fri Oct 5 23:08:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: <4707231C.5050107@arczip.com> References: <4707231C.5050107@arczip.com> Message-ID: <4707261D.7050006@lpl.arizona.edu> Glenn, As another Viet. Era Vet, we appreciate your service! Afghanistan I think is known for it's lapis lazuli. At least that's what we see from there at the Tucson Show. -Rik Charles Baran wrote: > Please let me say to your son-in-law, from an old Vietnam Vet, > Thank you, stay safe and God bless you. > > Chuck Baran > Glenn Wimpee wrote: > >> We have a son-in-law heading to Afghanistan soon. >> >> Lucky for us he has taken an interest in rocks, minerals, and fossils! >> >> Do any of you have suggestions and pointers for him to look for while >> he is there? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Glenn _________________________________________________________________ >> From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Oct 6 03:06:00 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Oct 6 03:06:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens In-Reply-To: <000901c80789$fc9b2880$9efaf604@TheBlackAdder> References: <001001c806ee$755d48d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000c01c80764$58198290$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <000901c80789$fc9b2880$9efaf604@TheBlackAdder> Message-ID: <000c01c80800$7f421ac0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Indeed strange!?! I thought I hade sent you these: http://www.naturalsciences.be/index_html The previous site is obviously linked to it... Blame it on the nightshift and too little time ;-))) The KBIN has an entire floor that is lined with lead and has special filters to keep radioactive dust inside the building. If anyone knows how to treat a radioactive collection it is probably them. Head of the mineralogy/geology dept. Is Prof. Goethals. My excupologies Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Erich Kern > Verzonden: vrijdag 5 oktober 2007 20:58 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens > > > Axel, > > I went to the Belgian 'Science Policy' website and browsed > around using the links. From what I've read there, it's the > last place I would look seeking scientific advice. > > Erich Kern > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Axel Emmermann > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 8:28 AM > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens > > > Alan, > > Let your friend e-mail his problem to www@belspo.be (Belgian > Science Policy > helpsite) or go via their web site > http://www.belspo.be/belspo/about/phonbook/phone_en.stm > > Cheers > > Axel > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Alan Goldstein > > Verzonden: vrijdag 5 oktober 2007 2:24 > > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] care of radioactive specimens > > > > A question from a friend of mine who is a museum curator: > > > > Do you know of any good reference materials on the care of > > radioactive geologic specimens? Anything,... books, > > articles,... especially something covering the basics. > > > > I will forward any answers to him. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alan > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > > text/plain (text body -- kept) > > text/html > > --- > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Oct 6 03:26:30 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Oct 6 03:26:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601c80803$5c5bbfe0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi Glenn, I'm speaking from the fluorescent corner, of course, but your s-i-l may find some great: Apatite Fledspar (albite etc...) Spodumene (kunzite) Tourmaline (elbaite) Beryl (morganite and aquamarine, emerald) Zircon Micas (lepidolite, muscovite, phlogopite, biotite) Quartz Here's a list with places to go: http://www.mindat.org/lsearch.php?loc=afghan Most localities are in remote places. I'm not sure that you want your s-i-l to follow a local warlord who says "come with me and I'll show you the mine" ;-))) I think that he'll have plenty opportunity to bargain with locals but finding something himself is boubdtfull. Cheers Axel From info at rkgems.com Sat Oct 6 03:43:12 2007 From: info at rkgems.com (Information) Date: Sat Oct 6 03:43:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c80805$b5659050$f6743a74@rizwan4229f725> Hello Glenn Axel provided you with excellent to-start-with list of localities in Afghanistan. Due to the current situation in the country your Son-in-Law will like to stay away from unwanted troubles. He can find almost all varieties of Afghanistan minerals just across the border in Peshawar-Pakistan. He can have mineral specimens and material for faceting. Namak-mandi Peshawar (Pakistan), hub of afghan-Pakistan-and now Chinese minerals, is one stop to lay your hands on all sorts of cheap as well as quality Afghanistan. Almost all known afghan dealers have offices here with us. Regards Rizwan www.rkgems.com -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Wimpee Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:23 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals We have a son-in-law heading to Afghanistan soon. Lucky for us he has taken an interest in rocks, minerals, and fossils! Do any of you have suggestions and pointers for him to look for while he is there? Thanks in advance, Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_O ctWLtagline --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 6 08:57:13 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sat Oct 6 08:57:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Desautels Micromount Symposi Message-ID: <617098.23856.qm@web34309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anyone from the list going to the symposium in Baltimore next weekend? Jim Daly --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From geenet at centurytel.net Sat Oct 6 10:27:42 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Sat Oct 6 10:27:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals References: <000001c80805$b5659050$f6743a74@rizwan4229f725> Message-ID: <004d01c8083e$345c7c10$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Thankfully, our S-I-L, will be situated on the Air Force Base in Bagram. He won't have to venture off the base unless he wants to. He's going as a contractor gunsmith. I told him to keep his head down anyway. He won't be out collecting, most likely he'll be on the lookout for whatever he can buy on the base. According to his Dad who was working in Iraq, there are locals who can get on the bases and sell you anything you want, and then some. Some lapis rough would be nice... Thank you for all those concerned. Jeanette and Glenn > Hello Glenn > > Axel provided you with excellent to-start-with list of localities in > Afghanistan. Due to the current situation in the country your Son-in-Law > will like to stay away from unwanted troubles. He can find almost all > varieties of Afghanistan minerals just across the border in > Peshawar-Pakistan. He can have mineral specimens and material for > faceting. From efkern at earthlink.net Sat Oct 6 11:21:24 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sat Oct 6 11:21:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] San Andreas drilling Message-ID: <001501c80845$b4865fd0$7ffbf604@TheBlackAdder> Fw: ----- Original Message ----- From: ian interesting story about recovering rocks from deep inside the fault: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7030660.stm Ian __________________________________________________________ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From turnea55 at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 11:42:14 2007 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Sat Oct 6 11:42:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Al Ordway In-Reply-To: <4706E9A8.8090504@arczip.com> Message-ID: Al was a mineral dealer at our show for several years now. In fact, I got a fantastic large twinned garnet from Mali from him last year (best garnet in my collection), and he basically threw in a nice Yukon wardite as well with the purchase. A few years ago he had an abundance of great large thenardites from soda lake. I planned on purchasing one, but after talking to Al about minerals for 20 minutes, he just gave me one. It's rare to find such knowledgeable dealers who are always willing to talk anyone about the lastest new finds or just BS about minerals for as long as you'd like. He had some fantastic high end specimens as well, and hopefully these find a good fitting home. Andrew Turner Victor Valley Gem and Mineral Club Victorville, CA >From: Charles Baran >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Al Ordway >Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 18:49:28 -0700 > >Ya know, when it is "our" time to go, I guess this is the best >way....doing something we love doing. I had an uncle, who had just got >home from playing 18 holes of golf, poured himself a glass of his favorite >scotch, took a sip and died from a heart attack, Didn't spill a drop of >his scotch either, and he actually had a smile on his face. > >Chuck Baran > >Alan Goldstein wrote: > >>I got this e-mail today from the wife of Al Ordway, a well-known >>California mineral collector. He had e-mailed me about obtaining a nice >>benstonite specimen about two weeks ago. >> >>Alan >> >>Dear Friends, >> >>Please forgive me for e-mailing instead of calling, but there has been so >>much to do and many phone calls to make, so I'm notifying as many people >>as possible by e-mail. >> >>Al passed away as a result of an apparent heart attack on Saturday, >>September 29 as he was collecting at Soda Lake in San Luis Obispo County. >>It was a place we had enjoyed spending many happy hours at, and he was >>doing what he loved most. It had been 13 years since his last attack, and >>from that time up until the present, he was in remarkably good health and >>continued to stay active, field collect and do the things he enjoyed, so >>we have much to thank God for. We are honoring Al's request that no >>services be held. >> >>Al deeply appreciated your friendship and shared interest in mineralogy. >> >>Sincerely, >>Betty Ordway >>eaord98@verizon.net >> >>--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >>multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >>--- >> >> >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Oct 6 12:10:06 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Oct 6 12:10:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: <004d01c8083e$345c7c10$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <000001c80805$b5659050$f6743a74@rizwan4229f725> <004d01c8083e$345c7c10$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <003101c8084c$8195e440$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Gems are pricy... Even over there ;-))) A nice crystal (preferably fluorescent) of apatite on matrix will probably cost less and make more profit when sold back home. At our annual mineral show in Antwerp the Pakistani and Afghan dealers certainly knew to scare the bargain hunters away ;-))) Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Jeanette Wimpee > Verzonden: zaterdag 6 oktober 2007 18:28 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals > > Thankfully, our S-I-L, will be situated on the Air Force Base > in Bagram. He won't have to venture off the base unless he > wants to. He's going as a contractor gunsmith. I told him to > keep his head down anyway. He won't be out collecting, most > likely he'll be on the lookout for whatever he can buy on the > base. According to his Dad who was working in Iraq, there are > locals who can get on the bases and sell you anything you > want, and then some. > Some lapis rough would be nice... > Thank you for all those concerned. > Jeanette and Glenn > > > > > > Hello Glenn > > > > Axel provided you with excellent to-start-with list of > localities in > > Afghanistan. Due to the current situation in the country your > > Son-in-Law will like to stay away from unwanted troubles. > He can find > > almost all varieties of Afghanistan minerals just across > the border in > > Peshawar-Pakistan. He can have mineral specimens and material for > > faceting. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From flint...smith at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 6 15:59:20 2007 From: flint...smith at sbcglobal.net (Flint Smith) Date: Sat Oct 6 15:59:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Soda Lake In-Reply-To: <003001c79c4b$1cfbc210$6801a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: <116874.51815.qm@web82513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm interested in going out there. Could you give me a little more detail about where to go? THe link you posted: http://www.slobc.org/rides/SodaLake.html has what seems to be a nice map. Thanks, Flint (sometimes the ... causes trouble. If mail won't go there, I'm also at flintsmith@hotmail.com) Rock Currier wrote: If anyone is interested in more information about Soda Lake, the Soda Lake where thenardite crystals are abundant and you used to be able to get filthy dirty collecting them. See: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/bakersfield/Programs/carrizo.html and http://www.slobc.org/rides/SodaLake.html and http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Aerial-View-of-Soda-Lake-on-Carrizo-Plain-California-USA-Posters_i1135299_.htm and http://activetectonics.asu.edu/carrizo/sodalake/ and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Carrizo+plane&btnG=Search Rock -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Sat Oct 6 16:40:24 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sat Oct 6 16:41:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: <003101c8084c$8195e440$6401a8c0@AxelHP> References: <000001c80805$b5659050$f6743a74@rizwan4229f725> <004d01c8083e$345c7c10$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <003101c8084c$8195e440$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <200710062340.l96Nex4f002923@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I guess this is still on topic, but when my parents went to Tanzania a few years ago, they asked about getting a rough tanzanite to bring home & get me to facet it for my mom (yeah I am slave labor for my family when it comes to jewelry lol). Turns out that the local "dealers" in Dar Es Salaam and Kinsahsa are basically scam artists who try to rip the tourists for outrageous prices for junky stones they could get on Ebay for a few bucks a carat. So unless he knows what he is looking at, I think he would be better off trying Ebay for Afghani minerals. Just my $0.02... At 12:10 PM 10/6/2007, you wrote: >Gems are pricy... Even over there ;-))) > >A nice crystal (preferably fluorescent) of apatite on matrix will probably >cost less and make more profit when sold back home. At our annual mineral >show in Antwerp the Pakistani and Afghan dealers certainly knew to scare the >bargain hunters away ;-))) > >Axel Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From flint...smith at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 6 18:45:53 2007 From: flint...smith at sbcglobal.net (Flint Smith) Date: Sat Oct 6 18:45:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Soda Lake In-Reply-To: <116874.51815.qm@web82513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <961553.43821.qm@web82511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry all. I thought it was a LARocks message, which would Reply to the sender rather than the group. I'll be more careful. Flint Smith wrote: I'm interested in going out there. Could you give me a little more detail about where to go? THe link you posted: http://www.slobc.org/rides/SodaLake.html has what seems to be a nice map. Thanks, Flint (sometimes the ... causes trouble. If mail won't go there, I'm also at flintsmith@hotmail.com) Rock Currier wrote: If anyone is interested in more information about Soda Lake, the Soda Lake where thenardite crystals are abundant and you used to be able to get filthy dirty collecting them. See: http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/bakersfield/Programs/carrizo.html and http://www.slobc.org/rides/SodaLake.html and http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Aerial-View-of-Soda-Lake-on-Carrizo-Plain-California-USA-Posters_i1135299_.htm and http://activetectonics.asu.edu/carrizo/sodalake/ and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Carrizo+plane&btnG=Search Rock -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From timeman123 at optonline.net Sat Oct 6 20:54:17 2007 From: timeman123 at optonline.net (ROBERT A SANTEE) Date: Sat Oct 6 20:56:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] chalcopyrite Message-ID: <002001c80895$bbdf1dd0$987f5143@ownerfbau59hmu> Hi I am looking to get some nice chalcopyrite can anybody give me any info were I can email for anybody interested in trading for it please email me. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rgangue at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 07:40:51 2007 From: rgangue at yahoo.com (Stan Perry) Date: Sun Oct 7 07:40:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Afghanistan Minerals In-Reply-To: <200710062340.l96Nex4f002923@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <160333.14574.qm@web54205.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi All, I agree with Tim on this one. After having people who didn't know minerals bring me back a few pieces of overpriced junk ... I now just thank them for the offer of buying me rocks on their trip but not to bother because of previous experiences. Stan --- Tim Fisher wrote: > I guess this is still on topic, but when my parents > went to Tanzania > a few years ago, they asked about getting a rough > tanzanite to bring > home & get me to facet it for my mom (yeah I am > slave labor for my > family when it comes to jewelry lol). Turns out that > the local > "dealers" in Dar Es Salaam and Kinsahsa are > basically scam artists > who try to rip the tourists for outrageous prices > for junky stones > they could get on Ebay for a few bucks a carat. So > unless he knows > what he is looking at, I think he would be better > off trying Ebay for > Afghani minerals. Just my $0.02... Stan Perry Our Gangue Minerals www.emineralshow.com Ebay seller ID rgangue e-mail at rgangue@yahoo.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From lavenderfish at cox.net Mon Oct 8 07:58:47 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Mon Oct 8 07:58:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Why does the color of some gems fade? Message-ID: <077e01c809bb$bbd6a5c0$6401a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Hi Rock Friends, Just back from a trip to Oregon and a first sunstone dig. What fun! We didn't find anything to retire on but did recover a couple lbs. of small schillers and a few little reds. Easy to see why people get hooked on digging them, count me in! On to the question.....Why do some pink and purple gems fade? ie, rose quartz, Holley Blue, etc. How about carnelian too? Does it make a difference if they're heat-treated? Looking forward to your comments on this, CaroL --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Mon Oct 8 08:23:07 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Mon Oct 8 08:27:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS Message-ID: <000101c809bf$c11ac620$044cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Hi everyone, At the moment I have a mineral collector friend from Gerrmany visiting me for three days. In addition to being interested in mineral collecting, he is also an avid collector of miner's lamps (oil, carbide and safethy). He has a collection 110 lamps, mainly Friemann and Wolff lamps. He is keen to find out if there is an organisation/Club? Society in the USA whose objective is the collection/restoration of miner's lamps. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Mon Oct 8 09:48:00 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Oct 8 09:48:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS In-Reply-To: <000101c809bf$c11ac620$044cd0c4@federatiydq01o> References: <000101c809bf$c11ac620$044cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Message-ID: <026201c809ca$fd69eb00$6b01a8c0@okapi> Contact Earl up at Sterling Hill. They've got a pretty big collection up there and probably have some contacts. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Horst Windisch > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:23 AM > To: rockhounds > Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS > > Hi everyone, > > At the moment I have a mineral collector friend from Gerrmany > visiting me for three days. In addition to being interested > in mineral collecting, he is also an avid collector of > miner's lamps (oil, carbide and safethy). He has a collection > 110 lamps, mainly Friemann and Wolff lamps. > > He is keen to find out if there is an organisation/Club? > Society in the USA whose objective is the > collection/restoration of miner's lamps. Any help would be > appreciated. > > Regards, > Horst From territoones1 at ameritech.net Mon Oct 8 11:24:27 2007 From: territoones1 at ameritech.net (teresa jetter) Date: Mon Oct 8 11:24:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rock list member Message-ID: <571973.70310.qm@web81704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I keep seeing your name pop up, and I wondered if your wife (if your married that is), is Kathy. I lost my old friend years past, and cannot find her, but she married a Gary Brown. Her name is *was* Kathy Osmundson, Best person I ever met. Sorry to bother you, but I needed to ask you. Teri Jetter From dzrtgrls at cox.net Mon Oct 8 19:24:07 2007 From: dzrtgrls at cox.net (dzrtgrls) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:23:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS In-Reply-To: <000101c809bf$c11ac620$044cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Message-ID: <20071009022346.SIKR14884.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> Hi Horst, http://www.lamp-tramp.com/ - This link may be helpful. You might try contacting the website owner for more info. Check out the links section too. Good luck! Niki www.dzrtgrls.com -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Horst Windisch Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:23 AM To: rockhounds Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS Hi everyone, At the moment I have a mineral collector friend from Gerrmany visiting me for three days. In addition to being interested in mineral collecting, he is also an avid collector of miner's lamps (oil, carbide and safethy). He has a collection 110 lamps, mainly Friemann and Wolff lamps. He is keen to find out if there is an organisation/Club? Society in the USA whose objective is the collection/restoration of miner's lamps. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html __________ NOD32 2577 (20071008) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From mstreman53 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 19:46:57 2007 From: mstreman53 at yahoo.com (Mr EMan) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:47:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS & Carbide In-Reply-To: <20071009022346.SIKR14884.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> Message-ID: <388509.8227.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Horst, If you will be near Eastern Pennsylvania I might be able to direct you to some shops which have mining collectibles. Many do sell safety lamps and helmets, although carbide lamps are increasingly scarce. While on topic of carbide, I have been told that carbide is no longer legal to sell in the US. Can anyone confirm of refute this? Elton > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On > Behalf Of Horst Windisch > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:23 AM > To: rockhounds > Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS > > Hi everyone, > > At the moment I have a mineral collector friend from > Germany visiting me > for three days. In addition to being interested in > mineral collecting, he is > also an avid collector of miner's lamps (oil, > carbide and safethy). He has a > collection 110 lamps, mainly Friemann and Wolff > lamps. > > He is keen to find out if there is an > organisation/Club? Society in the USA > whose objective is the collection/restoration of > miner's lamps. Any help > would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Horst From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Oct 8 20:01:27 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Oct 8 19:58:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Why does the color of some gems fade? References: <077e01c809bb$bbd6a5c0$6401a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <470AEE3D.7584@Tomaszewski.net> Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: > > Hi Rock Friends, > > Just back from a trip to Oregon and a first sunstone dig. What fun! We didn't find anything to retire on but did recover a couple lbs. of small schillers and a few little reds. Easy to see why people get hooked on digging them, count me in! > > On to the question.....Why do some pink and purple gems fade? ie, rose quartz, Holley Blue, etc. How about carnelian too? Does it make a difference if they're heat-treated? > > Looking forward to your comments on this, CaroL Sunlight provides the energy needed to change crystal structure at the molecular level and alter the properties of many colored crystals. Kreigh From jerrybs at frii.com Mon Oct 8 20:33:20 2007 From: jerrybs at frii.com (jerrybs@frii.com) Date: Mon Oct 8 20:33:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Why does the color of some gems fade? In-Reply-To: <470AEE3D.7584@Tomaszewski.net> References: <077e01c809bb$bbd6a5c0$6401a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <470AEE3D.7584@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <1166.198.145.2.74.1191900800.squirrel@users.frii.com> Some of the opal, opalite, etc will loose their blue color when they dry out. I've also seen this in thundereggs. Jerry WA > Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: >> >> Hi Rock Friends, >> >> Just back from a trip to Oregon and a first sunstone dig. What fun! We >> didn't find anything to retire on but did recover a couple lbs. of small >> schillers and a few little reds. Easy to see why people get hooked on >> digging them, count me in! >> >> On to the question.....Why do some pink and purple gems fade? ie, rose >> quartz, Holley Blue, etc. How about carnelian too? Does it make a >> difference if they're heat-treated? >> >> Looking forward to your comments on this, CaroL > > Sunlight provides the energy needed to change crystal structure at the > molecular level and alter the properties of many colored crystals. > > Kreigh > > -- From efkern at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 23:21:33 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Mon Oct 8 23:21:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Calcium Carbide Manufacturers Message-ID: <000501c80a3c$ac633f00$f3fcf604@TheBlackAdder> http://www.lamp-tramp.com/calciumcarbidemfrs.htm --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Tue Oct 9 08:22:29 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Tue Oct 9 08:22:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS & Carbide In-Reply-To: <388509.8227.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <20071009022346.SIKR14884.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> <388509.8227.qm@web51001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c80a88$34b89080$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> Looks like Calcium carbide is still for sale. http://www.karstsports.com/mingradcalca.html?ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=Carbide&ovcrn=c alcium+carbide&ovtac=PPC&sendroicid=45d29a9b-a090-4197-98f7-563e377b9a91&sen droiad=639499599&sendroikwd=calcium+carbide Cut and paste the whole ink. I found several suppliers online and I think it's likely that good welding shops will still sell calcium carbide. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Mr EMan Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 10:47 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS & Carbide Horst, If you will be near Eastern Pennsylvania I might be able to direct you to some shops which have mining collectibles. Many do sell safety lamps and helmets, although carbide lamps are increasingly scarce. While on topic of carbide, I have been told that carbide is no longer legal to sell in the US. Can anyone confirm of refute this? From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Oct 9 12:05:50 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Oct 9 12:05:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Why does the color of some gems fade? In-Reply-To: <1166.198.145.2.74.1191900800.squirrel@users.frii.com> References: <077e01c809bb$bbd6a5c0$6401a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0><470AEE3D.7584@Tomaszewski.net> <1166.198.145.2.74.1191900800.squirrel@users.frii.com> Message-ID: <002101c80aa7$689e7350$6401a8c0@AxelHP> This is a layman trying to explain quite complicated stuff. Please seek confirmation with professionals. Still, here's what I believe can happen: Some elements (some rare earths for example) may change valence when exposed to light. The pink and green calcite cleavage rhombs from Chihuahua fade to yellow due to prolonged exposure to sunlight. In this case one divalent RE-ion could give an electron (kicked off by a photon) to a trivalent RE-ion. The first would then become divalent and the latter divalent. Many ions change color due to valence. Fe2+ is green, Fe3+ is brown... Cr3+ is green, Cr+6 is orange... Green fluorite may fade to gray due to annealing of f-centers or e-centers. Electrons that are kicked of their ions in a crystal lattice may cause coloration. The energy of photons in the sunlight can be sufficiently high to kick them back into place. I think that the same mechanism can change lilac kunzite into green hiddenite... A short stay in a nuclear reactor would return the color (I'm sure this is the only reason why Iran should want a reactor ;-))) Same like radioactive rocks can turn quartz into smoky quartz... Hope his helps? Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens jerrybs@frii.com > Verzonden: dinsdag 9 oktober 2007 4:33 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Why does the color of some gems fade? > > Some of the opal, opalite, etc will loose their blue color > when they dry out. I've also seen this in thundereggs. > > Jerry > WA > > > > > Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: > >> > >> Hi Rock Friends, > >> > >> Just back from a trip to Oregon and a first sunstone dig. > What fun! > >> We didn't find anything to retire on but did recover a > couple lbs. of > >> small schillers and a few little reds. Easy to see why people get > >> hooked on digging them, count me in! > >> > >> On to the question.....Why do some pink and purple gems fade? ie, > >> rose quartz, Holley Blue, etc. How about carnelian too? > Does it make > >> a difference if they're heat-treated? > >> > >> Looking forward to your comments on this, CaroL > > > > Sunlight provides the energy needed to change crystal > structure at the > > molecular level and alter the properties of many colored crystals. > > > > Kreigh > > > > -- > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From dalerocks1 at cox.net Tue Oct 9 13:13:09 2007 From: dalerocks1 at cox.net (Richard) Date: Tue Oct 9 13:25:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] [AD]: Richard Dale Minerals 1 week 25% Off Sale Message-ID: <000001c80ab2$885ecdb0$6c01a8c0@DALEROCKS> Many of you do not know me, so by way of introduction, everything on my "Quartz" page (and only that page, sorry!) will be discounted by 25% to list members only. Sale will close midnight, PDST, Oct 16. You can find the page listed at http://www.dalerocks.com/2/cat2.htm?127 - then click "Quartz". To be eligible, please write "rockhound sale" in the comments box on the order form. My business philosophy has been to minimally mark up specimens and sell volume instead of just a few high-profit pieces. Many specimens have been purchased at European shows back when the dollar was strong, so the 25% off pretty much represents my purchase price and is now well below replacement cost on many items. Hope you enjoy the site! Richard --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From folmstead at rcn.com Tue Oct 9 20:30:42 2007 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Tue Oct 9 20:38:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] $6 million diamond sold In-Reply-To: <1166.198.145.2.74.1191900800.squirrel@users.frii.com> References: <077e01c809bb$bbd6a5c0$6401a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <470AEE3D.7584@Tomaszewski.net> <1166.198.145.2.74.1191900800.squirrel@users.frii.com> Message-ID: <470C4762.9080006@rcn.com> Hi I just heard a blip on TV news A ( 5 carat? ) blue diamond was sold in China for $6 million. Did anyone hear??? Anyone know anything more about this? Thankzzz GeorgiaO From codeburner at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 06:16:23 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Wed Oct 10 06:16:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] $6 million diamond sold In-Reply-To: <470C4762.9080006@rcn.com> References: <077e01c809bb$bbd6a5c0$6401a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <470AEE3D.7584@Tomaszewski.net> <1166.198.145.2.74.1191900800.squirrel@users.frii.com> <470C4762.9080006@rcn.com> Message-ID: It was 6.04 carets and $8 million: < http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071009053900.yf9fnocr&show_article=1 > Not a very good photo. BK On 10/9/07, Frederick Olmstead wrote: > > Hi > > I just heard a blip on TV news > > A ( 5 carat? ) blue diamond was sold in China for $6 million. > > Did anyone hear??? > > Anyone know anything more about this? > > Thankzzz > GeorgiaO > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dan.campbell at zoominternet.net Tue Oct 9 14:11:21 2007 From: dan.campbell at zoominternet.net (Dan Campbell) Date: Wed Oct 10 09:34:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wood's Chrome Mine Message-ID: These are the exact coordinates: 39?43'52"N, 76?6'21.34"W. Cut & Paste them into Google Earth?s ?Fly To? feature and it will take you right on top of the mine entrance. I own property adjacent to the Wood?s Farm. Dan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Oct 10 22:35:00 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Oct 10 22:34:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry Message-ID: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Hi all, Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road and had a close call with a running moose. Behold the scenery: http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg The mythical monsters do exist. Take care, Don From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Thu Oct 11 01:46:40 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Oct 11 01:46:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000701c80be3$3e2baab0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Wow Don, I think that the scenery ranks 7.5 on the Hallmark e-cardability scale... Almandine? Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens DonH > Verzonden: donderdag 11 oktober 2007 6:35 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry > > > Hi all, > > > Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. > This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses > Butte, St. Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride > on a narrow unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and > clouds, above the snow line, whereupon we almost went off the > side of the road and had a close call with a running moose. > Behold the scenery: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg > > This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg > > The mythical monsters do exist. > > > Take care, > Don > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From hammerron at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 06:32:09 2007 From: hammerron at yahoo.com (The Hammer) Date: Thu Oct 11 06:32:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <93325.13952.qm@web83513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Don, Very Cool Pictures. -Ron DonH wrote: Hi all, Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road and had a close call with a running moose. Behold the scenery: http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg The mythical monsters do exist. Take care, Don -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Oct 11 07:02:13 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Oct 11 07:02:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200710111402.l9BE2OXL012924@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I remember the exact views of Grandmother & Moses Butte in your pics :) Of course it was huckleberry season the last time I was there so I mentally subtracted all the white stuff! At 10:35 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote: >Hi all, > > >Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. >This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. >Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow >unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow >line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road and had a >close call with a running moose. Behold the scenery: > >http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg >http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg > >This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: > >http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg > >The mythical monsters do exist. > > >Take care, >Don Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From lanny at lrream.com Thu Oct 11 09:13:09 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Oct 11 09:13:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <06996b3b20e004f8dd123fd77c38cdc3@lrream.com> Hi Don, Thanks for sharing your excursion with us. I'm finding it difficult in deciding if you are braver or crazier than I! Must have been a thrilling trip, and the scenery must have been fabulous, if you were ever able to see more than a quarter mile. Idaho mountains in the fall can be exciting. How was the famous mud hole in the road a little south of forest road 301? Regards, Lanny On Oct 10, 2007, at 10:35 PM, DonH wrote: > > Hi all, > > > Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. > This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. Joe > Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow > unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow > line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road and had a > close call with a running moose. Behold the scenery: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg > > This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg > > The mythical monsters do exist. > > > Take care, > Don > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 11 10:56:01 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Oct 11 10:56:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! I used to have a doe steal laundry off the clothesline, and cow elk come up to accept carrots and sugar cubes, while the bulls stood in the distance and barked---in Avery, Idaho as a kid. But no moose! Aloha, Bill At 07:35 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote: >Hi all, > > >Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. >This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. >Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow >unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow >line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road and had a >close call with a running moose. From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Thu Oct 11 12:01:56 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Thu Oct 11 12:03:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] OT: Moose (was giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry) References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <003d01c80c39$3738fd10$0200a8c0@Notebook> Nice rock Don! Thanks for the photos. Had a family of three moose up here in Pokey Creek last winter. The smallest of which was bigger than my car. They weren't afraid of me, the camera or the dogs. John Santa, ID ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry > OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! I used to have a doe steal > laundry off the clothesline, and cow elk come up to accept carrots and > sugar cubes, while the bulls stood in the distance and barked---in Avery, > Idaho as a kid. But no moose! > > Aloha, Bill > > > > At 07:35 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >> >>Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. This >>is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. Joe Forest, >>Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow unmaintained road up to >>6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow line, whereupon we almost went >>off the side of the road and had a close call with a running moose. From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Oct 11 12:07:24 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Oct 11 12:07:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <200710111907.l9BJ7XVC018904@bubbleator.drizzle.com> If you don't see a moose in north Idaho in the woods you are not looking in the right places. I saw moose almost every single trip, and got chased by more than one angry cow with a calf nearby! There was a resident bull in the Elk City sewage pond for many years, I talked to someone who lives there this summer who said that an out of state hunter (figgers lol) shot him (legally) a few years ago. He was practically the town pet. As a poor starving grad student our family regularly received illegally harvested moose meat (and elk, but we turned down the bear and cougar!) from the state. I bet they don't do that anymore because of "public health concerns", but it sure was great to have something other than burger and my yearly deer back then :) At 10:56 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: >OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! I used to have a doe >steal laundry off the clothesline, and cow elk come up to accept >carrots and sugar cubes, while the bulls stood in the distance and >barked---in Avery, Idaho as a kid. But no moose! > >Aloha, Bill > > > >At 07:35 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >> >>Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the >>season. This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses >>Butte, St. Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a >>narrow unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above >>the snow line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road >>and had a close call with a running moose. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 12:11:19 2007 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Thu Oct 11 12:11:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling Message-ID: <345980.95148.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. Thanks for all your help and advise. June --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 12:16:14 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Thu Oct 11 12:16:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <200710111907.l9BJ7XVC018904@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <200710111907.l9BJ7XVC018904@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Heh, reminds me when I lived in Arco. We were visiting a neighbor when the Sheriff pulls up, the fellow we were visiting had fresh deer and elk skins tacked to the outside of his cabin and it was months away to hunting season. The Sheriff walks up, eyes the skins and says, "I hear someone has been shooting Deer out of season" and claps the hairy eyeball on the miscreant. "But so long as they are just shooting enough to feed their family, that's OK." He shakes hands all around, gets in his car and drives off. BK On 10/11/07, Tim Fisher wrote: > > If you don't see a moose in north Idaho in the woods you are not > looking in the right places. I saw moose almost every single trip, > and got chased by more than one angry cow with a calf nearby! There > was a resident bull in the Elk City sewage pond for many years, I > talked to someone who lives there this summer who said that an out of > state hunter (figgers lol) shot him (legally) a few years ago. He was > practically the town pet. As a poor starving grad student our family > regularly received illegally harvested moose meat (and elk, but we > turned down the bear and cougar!) from the state. I bet they don't do > that anymore because of "public health concerns", but it sure was > great to have something other than burger and my yearly deer back then :) > > At 10:56 AM 10/11/2007, you wrote: > >OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! I used to have a doe > >steal laundry off the clothesline, and cow elk come up to accept > >carrots and sugar cubes, while the bulls stood in the distance and > >barked---in Avery, Idaho as a kid. But no moose! > > > >Aloha, Bill > > > > > > > >At 07:35 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote: > > > >>Hi all, > >> > >> > >>Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the > >>season. This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses > >>Butte, St. Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a > >>narrow unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above > >>the snow line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road > >>and had a close call with a running moose. > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lanny at lrream.com Thu Oct 11 15:54:26 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Oct 11 15:54:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <54048a04591f7578056a4f1c78dd045d@lrream.com> "Pretty unusual in Idaho!" Hardly. Idaho has always had a fairly healthy moose count (5,000 in the 1960s), now it is practically scary. There are around 20,000 in the state, and up around 12,000 of them are in the northern part, according to recent counts. Along with the elk, moose are reportedly excellent wolf food. The wolf population is now around 600. Shall we talk about the grizzly bear count and where they are finding them now? Still no data on the sasquatch population though. Regards, Lanny On Oct 11, 2007, at 10:56 AM, Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! I used to have a doe > steal laundry off the clothesline, and cow elk come up to accept > carrots and sugar cubes, while the bulls stood in the distance and > barked---in Avery, Idaho as a kid. But no moose! > > Aloha, Bill > > > > At 07:35 PM 10/10/2007, you wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> >> Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. >> This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. >> Joe Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow >> unmaintained road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow >> line, whereupon we almost went off the side of the road and had a >> close call with a running moose. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Oct 11 16:21:57 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:22:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] OFF TOPIC Grizzes meese and wolfies oh my In-Reply-To: <54048a04591f7578056a4f1c78dd045d@lrream.com> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <54048a04591f7578056a4f1c78dd045d@lrream.com> Message-ID: <200710112322.l9BNM41B019774@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I found this whilst looking for fish hatchery data on the IDFG website. Strange how things are connected sometimes :) I saw a wolf at the Kelly Creek CG on July 4th, 1988 (after a 3 inch surprise snowstorm!) I told the IDFG office in Lewiston when I returned their electroshocker the following week. I was shown a nice blown up photo of a wolf on the Kelly Creek trail taken by a biologist in the late 70s. I was told in no uncertain terms to keep my mouth shut as they were fully aware of a a few stray males up there that came from BC but didn't want the anti-wolf folks to get wind of it. Now there are hundreds. Seems the Kelly Creek area is a hotspot for new arrivals from Canada. Dollars to donuts the griz didn't respect the international boundary :) P.S. Do you have to be an OUT OF STATE hunter to screw up in Idaho? Inquiring minds want to know! Seems to be a common theme... IDAHO FISH AND GAME HEADQUARTERS NEWS RELEASE Boise, ID Date: October 2, 2007 Contact: Ed Mitchell (208) 334-3700 grizzly killed in bitterroots, came from selkirks Genetic test results on the grizzly bear killed in the Kelly Creek area of the Bitterroot ecosystem last month show it was from the Selkirks in north Idaho. A hunter from Tennessee on an outfitted bear hunt in Idaho's North Fork Clearwater River drainage killed a grizzly bear on Labor Day, September 3. It is the first grizzly bear verified since 1946 on the Idaho side of the 5,700-square-mile Selway-Bitteroot ecosystem in central Idaho and western Montana. The 4- to 6-year-old male, about 400 pounds, with a silvery back and in good physical condition, was killed three miles from the Montana border. At 03:54 PM 10/11/2007, you wrote: {quot}Pretty unusual in Idaho!" Hardly. Idaho has always had a fairly healthy moose count (5,000 in the 1960s), now it is practically scary. There are around 20,000 in the state, and up around 12,000 of them are in the northern part, according to recent counts. Along with the elk, moose are reportedly excellent wolf food. The wolf population is now around 600. Shall we talk about the grizzly bear count and where they are finding them now? Still no data on the sasquatch population though. Regards, Lanny Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From smtravis at plateautel.net Thu Oct 11 16:28:43 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Thu Oct 11 16:28:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <345980.95148.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c201c80c5e$76e509c0$039e5a40@marilyn> How much grit are you using usually a teaspon or maybe a little more but not 2 is enough and more does not help the process. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "June Young" To: Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:11 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling >I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is time >to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has all the >grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. Is this >normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. > Thanks for all your help and advise. > June > > > --------------------------------- > Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! > Autos. > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 11 17:58:51 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 11 17:59:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <345980.95148.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470EC6BD.2BD5@Tomaszewski.net> June Young wrote: > > I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. > Thanks for all your help and advise. > June > June, It sounds like you have the barrel too full, and the rocks can't actually tumble. You only want to fill the barrel to about 2/3 full by volume, and water to about the top of the rocks. Lortone used to send a great phamplet on tumbling how-to's with new tumblers. Don't know if they still do, but if you got one it is worth reading. Kreigh From smtravis at plateautel.net Thu Oct 11 18:15:54 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Thu Oct 11 18:16:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <345980.95148.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470EC6BD.2BD5@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001701c80c6d$6f8c3f90$039e5a40@marilyn> I think they still have a copy on their web site. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > June Young wrote: >> >> I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is >> time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has >> all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. >> Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. >> Thanks for all your help and advise. >> June >> > > > June, > > It sounds like you have the barrel too full, and the rocks can't > actually tumble. You only want to fill the barrel to about 2/3 full by > volume, and water to about the top of the rocks. > > Lortone used to send a great phamplet on tumbling how-to's with new > tumblers. Don't know if they still do, but if you got one it is worth > reading. > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From tam2819 at cox.net Thu Oct 11 18:55:21 2007 From: tam2819 at cox.net (Teresa Masters) Date: Thu Oct 11 18:55:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] End of Season Field Trip In-Reply-To: <200710120102.l9C12YAn030406@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710120102.l9C12YAn030406@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: Don, Thank you for an interesting tale, and great photos. Hugs, Terrie From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 11 18:59:48 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 11 18:59:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <470ED4FD.1254@Tomaszewski.net> 'Thanks' for the reminder that Winter is coming. Nice rock! Wish I could have come along. Kreigh DonH wrote: > > Hi all, > > Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. > This is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. Joe > Forest, Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow unmaintained > road up to 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow line, whereupon we > almost went off the side of the road and had a close call with a running > moose. Behold the scenery: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg > > This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg > > The mythical monsters do exist. > > Take care, > Don > From marksev at cox.net Thu Oct 11 19:30:59 2007 From: marksev at cox.net (Mark Severns) Date: Thu Oct 11 19:31:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <345980.95148.qm@web35614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <470EC6BD.2BD5@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <01e701c80c77$ece7b9b0$030ba8c0@markA86DE9A744> Hi there June, Are the stones tumbling freely as with the other grits? Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > June Young wrote: >> >> I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is >> time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has >> all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. >> Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. >> Thanks for all your help and advise. >> June >> > > > June, > > It sounds like you have the barrel too full, and the rocks can't > actually tumble. You only want to fill the barrel to about 2/3 full by > volume, and water to about the top of the rocks. > > Lortone used to send a great phamplet on tumbling how-to's with new > tumblers. Don't know if they still do, but if you got one it is worth > reading. > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Oct 11 20:33:44 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Oct 11 20:35:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <470EEB18.7080300@verizon.net> Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! Hi all, well, to bring it back on topic sort of, it is definitely important to know the environment where you will be collecting. I have seen moose, bear, and elk tracks and droppings all over, some of them very fresh. I also saw a wolf this summer, which I reported to the ranger station, to which they replied "oh yeah, there is a pack living up there." I always carry bear mace, and depending how far off the road I am going, I may carry a sidearm. Believe it or not, open range cattle are pretty aggressive, because they hardly interact with people and don't rely on people for their food. The grazing ranges have changed around here, resulting in more cattle hanging out on the roads. They are mean. Not only that, it is hunting season, so I wear my bright yellow vest. When that moose ran in front of us, I wasn't worried so much about the moose as I was wondering what might be coming after it: a gunshot, or a pack of wolves. Many people collect in quarries and dumps, which requires a particular safety protocol. When you collect out in the open range, far from people where there is no cell phone signal, it requires another set of safety measures. Be careful, Don From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 11 21:04:46 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Oct 11 21:04:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470EEB18.7080300@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <470D4245000337E1@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <470EEB18.7080300@verizon.net> Message-ID: <470E627D00017C06@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Don, Thanks for the information. I think moose were less seen 60 years ago, and certainly wolves weren't seen at all, to my knowledge. Aloha, Bill At 05:33 PM 10/11/2007, Don H wrote: >Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > >>OT comment: Moose? Pretty unusual in Idaho! > > >Hi all, > >well, to bring it back on topic sort of, it is definitely important >to know the environment where you will be collecting. I have seen >moose, bear, and elk tracks and droppings all over, some of them >very fresh. I also saw a wolf this summer, which I reported to the >ranger station, to which they replied "oh yeah, there is a pack >living up there." I always carry bear mace, and depending how far >off the road I am going, I may carry a sidearm. Believe it or not, >open range cattle are pretty aggressive, because they hardly >interact with people and don't rely on people for their food. The >grazing ranges have changed around here, resulting in more cattle >hanging out on the roads. They are mean. Not only that, it is >hunting season, so I wear my bright yellow vest. When that moose >ran in front of us, I wasn't worried so much about the moose as I >was wondering what might be coming after it: a gunshot, or a pack of wolves. > >Many people collect in quarries and dumps, which requires a >particular safety protocol. When you collect out in the open range, >far from people where there is no cell phone signal, it requires >another set of safety measures. > >Be careful, >Don From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Thu Oct 11 21:30:18 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Thu Oct 11 21:30:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] T Rex Footprint in Montana Message-ID: For us fossil freaks. http://www.livescience.com/animals/071011-dino-print.html Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From litleval at ruralnetwork.net Thu Oct 11 23:52:36 2007 From: litleval at ruralnetwork.net (Wayne Rasmussen) Date: Thu Oct 11 23:52:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> Don H. wrote ; > > Hi all, > > > Well I definitely made the last up-country field trip of the season. This > is one of the legendary massive garnets from Moses Butte, St. Joe Forest, > Idaho. The trip involved a bumpy ride on a narrow unmaintained road up to > 6000 ft. in fog and clouds, above the snow line, whereupon we almost went > off the side of the road and had a close call with a running moose. > Behold the scenery: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut1.jpg > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/2007OctFOut2.jpg > > This is one of the garnets, over 22 cm long and over 16 lbs: > > http://mysite.verizon.net/resqkdq4/giantgarnet.jpg > > The mythical monsters do exist. > > > Take care, > Don According to my view and years of mineing the Garnets found in the area on Emerald creek, what you have appears to be a chunk of solid Garnet empregnated schist. Your photo's are great and your trip interesting to say the least. Wayne _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From rpr at heidelberg.edu Fri Oct 12 06:53:49 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Fri Oct 12 06:53:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> Speaking of garnets, does anyone have iridescent and/or star garnet for trade or sale? I believe they come from Montana or possibly Idaho, perhaps from more than one place. I am interested in them from the standpoint of a crystal collection and an interest in oriented inclusions, not for lapidary use. I'd like a well-formed crystal, and maybe some broken pieces for thin section work. Please contact me offline if you have something. Thanks, Pete Richards From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Fri Oct 12 08:29:37 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Fri Oct 12 08:29:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> Message-ID: <000201c80ce4$b62dc9b0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> According to my view and years of mining the Garnets found in the area on Emerald creek, what you have appears to be a chunk of solid Garnet impregnated schist. Your photos are great and your trip interesting to say the least. Wayne ------------------------------- Hi Wayne and list: Don has the specimen, and I have only the photo to judge from, but I'll bet his garnet is similar to those I collected long ago from the Ruby Range in Montana. They're huge, but each mass is a single garnet crystal that contains abundant inclusions of quartz derived from the original rock. This is called "sieve texture" in English, or, among practicing geologists like me, "poikiloblastic texture" (we love long words). It's a bit like those "sand calcite crystals" you see on the market sometimes, the ones that are more than 60% quartz sand cemented by calcite -- in this case the garnet crystals, as they grew, engulfed much of the matrix rock they grew in, so a single crystal of garnet may actually be 30% or so quartz by volume. The ones from the Ruby Range, when you see them weathered from the rock and lying loose on the ground, are crude dodecahedral crystals. I wonder if Don's specimen conforms to that description -- from the photo I'd guess it does. Cheers- Earl Verbeek ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@ptd.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Oct 12 08:23:23 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Oct 12 08:33:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> R. Peter Richards wrote: > Speaking of garnets, does anyone have iridescent and/or star garnet for > trade or sale? I believe they come from Montana or possibly Idaho, > perhaps from more than one place. I am interested in them from the > standpoint of a crystal collection and an interest in oriented > inclusions, not for lapidary use. I'd like a well-formed crystal, and > maybe some broken pieces for thin section work. Hi Pete, Just for everyone's edification, the star garnets are known from one small area in northern Idaho, and a locality in India. Like Oregon sunstone, these are hard to find free or cheap, but I'll see what I can do (more off-list). They are rarely euhedral, in the strict sense of the word. Don From donhalterman at verizon.net Fri Oct 12 08:37:57 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Fri Oct 12 08:48:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> Message-ID: <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> Wayne Rasmussen wrote: > According to my view and years of mineing the Garnets found in the area > on Emerald creek, what you have appears to be a chunk of solid Garnet > empregnated schist. Hi, This is far eastward of Emerald Creek. Indeed the Moses Butte specimens are individual crystals, as determined by sawing them in half. I'm not sure of the rock type, but it's definitely not a schist. They are heavily included with other minerals. This region underwent three periods of metamorphism. Some of the garnets are well zoned and recent radiometric dating on the cores indicates an age of more than 1 billion years. Best, Don From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 18:02:04 2007 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Fri Oct 12 18:02:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling In-Reply-To: <01e701c80c77$ece7b9b0$030ba8c0@markA86DE9A744> Message-ID: <467467.10204.qm@web35605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the information. I believe I have the tumbler to full. I will take a handful out and reserve it for the next time. Should I run it for another 10 days? June Mark Severns wrote: Hi there June, Are the stones tumbling freely as with the other grits? Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > June Young wrote: >> >> I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is >> time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has >> all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. >> Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. >> Thanks for all your help and advise. >> June >> > > > June, > > It sounds like you have the barrel too full, and the rocks can't > actually tumble. You only want to fill the barrel to about 2/3 full by > volume, and water to about the top of the rocks. > > Lortone used to send a great phamplet on tumbling how-to's with new > tumblers. Don't know if they still do, but if you got one it is worth > reading. > > Kreigh > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --------------------------------- Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From smtravis at plateautel.net Fri Oct 12 20:44:18 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Fri Oct 12 20:45:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <467467.10204.qm@web35605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501c80d4b$58b27da0$039e5a40@marilyn> clean it out and put on a limited amount of grit and start it again and make sure the rocks are moving over one another then run it again, would be my advice. you will need new grit to get the best results. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "June Young" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > Thanks for the information. I believe I have the tumbler to full. I will > take a handful out and reserve it for the next time. Should I run it for > another 10 days? > June > > Mark Severns wrote: > Hi there June, > Are the stones tumbling freely as with the other grits? > > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > > >> June Young wrote: >>> >>> I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is >>> time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has >>> all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. >>> Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. >>> Thanks for all your help and advise. >>> June >>> >> >> >> June, >> >> It sounds like you have the barrel too full, and the rocks can't >> actually tumble. You only want to fill the barrel to about 2/3 full by >> volume, and water to about the top of the rocks. >> >> Lortone used to send a great phamplet on tumbling how-to's with new >> tumblers. Don't know if they still do, but if you got one it is worth >> reading. >> >> Kreigh >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get > listings, and more! > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Oct 12 20:51:42 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Oct 12 20:48:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <467467.10204.qm@web35605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47103FF3.4C09@Tomaszewski.net> June, I usually check the barrels after 5 or 6 days to see how they are doing. You only need to check one to three stones. They usualy need a few more days, but I seldom need to go a full 10 days. And yes, I would rerun the load. Kreigh June Young wrote: > > Thanks for the information. I believe I have the tumbler to full. I will take a handful out and reserve it for the next time. Should I run it for another 10 days? > June > > Mark Severns wrote: > Hi there June, > Are the stones tumbling freely as with the other grits? > > Mark > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" > > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > > > June Young wrote: > >> > >> I am tumbling agates in a new Lortone, double 3# barrels. When it is > >> time to change the course grit, #80, the bottom of the barrel still has > >> all the grit in it. It looks like it has not been used or broken down. > >> Is this normal for #80? The other grits do not act like that. > >> Thanks for all your help and advise. > >> June > >> > > > > > > June, > > > > It sounds like you have the barrel too full, and the rocks can't > > actually tumble. You only want to fill the barrel to about 2/3 full by > > volume, and water to about the top of the rocks. > > > > Lortone used to send a great phamplet on tumbling how-to's with new > > tumblers. Don't know if they still do, but if you got one it is worth > > reading. > > > > Kreigh > > From litleval at ruralnetwork.net Sat Oct 13 00:19:49 2007 From: litleval at ruralnetwork.net (Wayne Rasmussen) Date: Sat Oct 13 00:20:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry References: <000201c80ce4$b62dc9b0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <003a01c80d69$720f6d80$645fe842@Titans> Earl and Don ; ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl R. Verbeek" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 9:29 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry According to my view and years of mining the Garnets found in the area on Emerald creek, what you have appears to be a chunk of solid Garnet impregnated schist. Your photos are great and your trip interesting to say the least. Wayne ------------------------------- Hi Wayne and list: Don has the specimen, and I have only the photo to judge from, but I'll bet his garnet is similar to those I collected long ago from the Ruby Range in Montana. They're huge, but each mass is a single garnet crystal that contains abundant inclusions of quartz derived from the original rock. This is called "sieve texture" in English, or, among practicing geologists like me, "poikiloblastic texture" (we love long words). It's a bit like those "sand calcite crystals" you see on the market sometimes, the ones that are more than 60% quartz sand cemented by calcite -- in this case the garnet crystals, as they grew, engulfed much of the matrix rock they grew in, so a single crystal of garnet may actually be 30% or so quartz by volume. The ones from the Ruby Range, when you see them weathered from the rock and lying loose on the ground, are crude dodecahedral crystals. I wonder if Don's specimen conforms to that description -- from the photo I'd guess it does. Cheers- Earl Verbeek Thanks for the update on this type of Garnet, now I will have to make another trip back to Emerald creek and check out what I have been throwing over my shoulder all this time. Wayne ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@ptd.net --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Oct 14 17:39:34 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Oct 14 17:36:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Indian Mounds Rock & Mineral Club Annual Silent Auction Message-ID: <4712B5F6.496C@Tomaszewski.net> The Indian Mounds Rock & Mineral Club of Wyoming, Michigan, will hold its Annual Silent Auction this Tuesday, October 16, from 7 to 9 pm in the basement Community Hall at the Wesley Park United Methodist Church in Wyoming, MI. This sale is open to rockhounds and the general public. Sale items are expected to include beginner specimens, minerals, crystals, fossils, slabs, lapidary rough, jewelry, findings, lapidary equipment and supplies, cabs, tumbler rough, beadwork, books, magazines, and all sorts of rockhound hobby related odds and ends. Non-member sales will be cash only. Bid pre-registration is not required. Handicapped accessible elevator available. Admission is free. Refreshments will be available. Visit the club website at www.indianmoundsrockclub.com for more details. Take US-131 to the 36th Street exit in Wyoming, turn west onto 36th Street for about a mile, and turn north onto Michael Avenue for about a half mile to the corner of 32nd Street to find the Church (1150 32nd Street S.W.). It is always a great sale. I hope some of you can make it. Kreigh From lanny at lrream.com Mon Oct 15 15:32:58 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Mon Oct 15 15:33:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> Message-ID: <903fb671e4ae7812149cd9164623be4d@lrream.com> Just for the heck of it, to fill out Don's story, I decided to provide more information on the Moses Butte locality. Go to the following url: http://www.lrream.com/mosesgarnet.html This page is something I threw together during the last hour to show what Don is talking about and supply more information. The rock is a mess, much like the metamorphic region, from Emerald Creek to Freezeout to Moses Butte to Bathtub Mountain (far to the east). There are garnet, staurolite and kyanite areas throughout this region. Much of the rock on Moses Butte contains garnet. Most of this is "schistose," but it is not the relatively uniform textured rock with the typical schistosity that we would generally call schist. I tend to refer to it as gneissic rock, just to put a name on it. Regards, Lanny On Oct 12, 2007, at 8:37 AM, DonH wrote: > Wayne Rasmussen wrote: > > >> According to my view and years of mineing the Garnets found in the >> area on Emerald creek, what you have appears to be a chunk of solid >> Garnet empregnated schist. > > > Hi, > > This is far eastward of Emerald Creek. Indeed the Moses Butte > specimens are individual crystals, as determined by sawing them in > half. I'm not sure of the rock type, but it's definitely not a > schist. They are heavily included with other minerals. > > This region underwent three periods of metamorphism. Some of the > garnets are well zoned and recent radiometric dating on the cores > indicates an age of more than 1 billion years. > > Best, > Don > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From lanny at lrream.com Mon Oct 15 15:55:42 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Mon Oct 15 15:57:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> Message-ID: Can't help it, I have to jump in here. Someone has been providing Don with incorrect information. The star garnets occur over a large area (an area of 35-40 square miles) of which Emerald Creek is only the largest deposit and the most known. There are also star garnets on Purdue Creek near Bovill, about 8 miles to the south, and in a few small drainages between these two areas. There is (maybe was) an abundance of them in a small area off Cat's Spur Creek, about 3 miles south of Clarkia (about 7 miles SE of the main area on Emerald Creek, an incredible deposit with interesting stories). There also are star garnets on Bechtel Butte off the SE corner of the Emerald Creek area. To the east, there are some on tributaries of Glover Creek and Floodwood Creek and other drainages (in the region southerly of Freezeout Mountain). I was told that some of the crystals mined further south on the main fork of the Clearwater River also produced stars. Actually, the garnets are not scarce, they are easy to find at rock shows in the northwest. Also, they were abundant as sharp crystals, and still fairly easy to obtain as sharp crystals. I've heard various statements of the percentage that were stars from the Emerald Creek area that ranged from about half to more than three fourths and this included the various crystal types (rounded, sharp, surface patterned, etc.). From the Cat's Spur Creek deposit all the crystals produce stars. I would also like to correct (again) this ridiculous story that the Forest Service continues to tell, that they only occur in Emerald Creek and India. They also occur in the Sloan Creek area of Snohomish County, Washington. This seems to be a difficult piece of misinformation that I couldn't even purge from the system when I worked for them! An interesting bit of information is that nearly all the garnet locations (star garnet and those that are facet quality) in the region, at least all of those well known to the rockhound community, are on National Forest acquired lands. Acquired lands (by statute) are not open to mineral entry, thus it is illegal to go out and dig garnets without a permit on these lands. I'm contacting Pete off the list to offer the samples he requests. Regards, Lanny On Oct 12, 2007, at 8:23 AM, DonH wrote: > R. Peter Richards wrote: >> Speaking of garnets, does anyone have iridescent and/or star garnet >> for trade or sale? I believe they come from Montana or possibly >> Idaho, perhaps from more than one place. I am interested in them >> from the standpoint of a crystal collection and an interest in >> oriented inclusions, not for lapidary use. I'd like a well-formed >> crystal, and maybe some broken pieces for thin section work. > > Hi Pete, > > Just for everyone's edification, the star garnets are known from one > small area in northern Idaho, and a locality in India. > > Like Oregon sunstone, these are hard to find free or cheap, but I'll > see what I can do (more off-list). They are rarely euhedral, in the > strict sense of the word. > > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Oct 15 18:00:35 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Oct 15 18:09:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47140D33.2030602@verizon.net> Lanny wrote: > Can't help it, I have to jump in here. Someone has been providing Don > with incorrect information. Thanks for the correction! A lot of us have been given bad info and you should have jumped in sooner, perhaps. I think the idea of star garnets being found "only in Idaho" is a phrase based partly on marketing and partly on state pride. Thanks for taking care of Pete! Best, Don From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Oct 15 19:10:15 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Oct 15 19:18:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <903fb671e4ae7812149cd9164623be4d@lrream.com> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> <903fb671e4ae7812149cd9164623be4d@lrream.com> Message-ID: <47141D87.5070401@verizon.net> Lanny wrote: > Just for the heck of it, to fill out Don's story, I decided to provide > more information on the Moses Butte locality. Go to the following url: > > http://www.lrream.com/mosesgarnet.html Hi, A good portion of that rock in the Goat Mtn/Moses Butte area, as well as on the high narrow ridge where the Freezeout Lookout Tower once was, is a garnet amphibolite. It is black, with layered white stringers of felsic minerals and rust-red garnets. It has a gneissic texture. I just found this paper from American Mineralogist describing the area: Vol. 41 JANUARY-FEBRUARY, 1956 Nos. 1 and 2 KYANITE, ANDALUSITE, AND SILLIMANITE IN THE SCHIST IN BOEHLS BUTTE QUADRANGLE, IDAHO* Anna Hietanen Abstract Kyanite, andalusite, and sillimanite are found together in the cordierite-bearing mica schist of the Prichard formation of the Precambrian Belt series exposed in the Boehls Butte quadrangle in the southern part of the Idaho panhandle. Microscopic studies of this schist suggest that the following inversions took place: (1) sillimanite->kyanite, (2) sillimanite->andalusite, (3) kyanite->andalusite, (4) kyanite->sillimanite, (5) andalusite-> sillimanite. These inversions can be in part related to the fluctuation of temperature and stresses during the complex regional and thermal metamorphism to which the schist was subjected. In some thin sections all three modifications occur side by side, suggesting that they were crystallized close to the physical-chemical conditions in which all three may exist together. The association of epidote and plagioclase (An36) in the calcium-rich beds of the same area suggests that the temperature during the crystallization was close to 400' C. From jpjunk at mc.net Mon Oct 15 19:18:43 2007 From: jpjunk at mc.net (John Junkroski) Date: Mon Oct 15 19:20:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2007, at 5:55 PM, Lanny wrote: (Snip) > > An interesting bit of information is that nearly all the garnet > locations (star garnet and those that are facet quality) in the > region, at least all of those well known to the rockhound > community, are on National Forest acquired lands. Acquired lands > (by statute) are not open to mineral entry, thus it is illegal to > go out and dig garnets without a permit on these lands. (Snip) Lanny, Thank you for your excellent information on the garnet locations, and the outstanding photos. I hope to spend several weeks next summer in that area. ( Retirement is wonderful! ) With respect to your comment ( above ), does this apply to surface collecting, or only to "digging holes"? Could one legally scoop rocks out of the creek bed? I've been given to understand that as long as you don't mess up the stream banks or create fox-holes, collecting is permitted pretty much anywhere on National Forest and BLM lands. Have you had any experience obtaining permits for collecting on those lands? How bad is the bureaucracy? Thanks again, John From eeyoreandladybug at comcast.net Mon Oct 15 20:16:07 2007 From: eeyoreandladybug at comcast.net (eeyoreandladybug@comcast.net) Date: Mon Oct 15 20:16:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] ZIP Code demographics Message-ID: <101620070316.25195.47142CF7000D594E0000626B2205886014099A0D970B0E040B020E0A9D01970A0A@comcast.net> ZIP Code demographics VERY INTERESTING> You could play with this for hours. I don't know how they do it, but am amazed. http://zipskinny.com/ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From corson at infodyn.com Tue Oct 16 18:55:47 2007 From: corson at infodyn.com (Tom Corson) Date: Tue Oct 16 18:56:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] An awesome new book .... Message-ID: <001001c81060$d64e7530$610fa8c0@Grimble> For those of you who have not discovered this "gem" yet, I cannot recommend this book more highly! If you are into determinative mineralogy, it is a "must have". It was just published by Min Rec, is 260+ pages, covers chemical techniques, optical techniques, the lot... Has appendices on how to build your own Specific Gravity balance, Polarizing Microscope, Dichroscope, Spindle Stage, 2 different flavors of Goniometers, and more. Comes with a CD of useful software like Min Search and others. Mineral Identification: A Practical Guide for the Amateur Mineralogist by Donald B. Peck http://www.minrec.org/bookdetail.asp?id=48 This is one of the best new books I've seen in years.... Did I mention I really like it???? :-) Regards, Tom Corson PS: This is not an advertisement. I have no connection with and nothing to gain from this book, its author, or its publisher. From lanny at lrream.com Tue Oct 16 19:02:42 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Tue Oct 16 19:02:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <47141D87.5070401@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> <903fb671e4ae7812149cd9164623be4d@lrream.com> <47141D87.5070401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5b792262b4d1cc9cfa13be984359edf9@lrream.com> Great, thanks Don for looking that up. It's been too long since I've read Hietanen's reports on the metamorphism in the region and have probably forgotten most of what I've read. I hadn't seen the Am. Min. report. Have you looked at the rock closely in those areas? I haven't really studied the matrix, mostly just noted that it often has a gneissic texture and appeared to be mica and feldspars in most areas I've looked. Some of the amphibole out there does appear to mimic biotite if you just look at a hand specimen without looking closely. Some rock north of Goat Mountain, where there are the euhedral garnets surrounded by the anhedral granular garnet shells has small amphiboles and not mica, but if you just look at the matrix without a lens, they appear to be biotite flakes. The pieces of matrix I have from Goat Mtn. with kyanite are mica and feldspars with a little quartz. I don't have a pice of any of the matrix from Moses Butte except the anorthosite pods with the red almandine-spessartine. If you are interested in digging into this more, and using Hietanen as a source for possible staurolite, kyanite and garnet locations take a look at her USGS reports on the region: Pro. Papers 450-C (1962, pp. C69-C71), 344-B (1963) and 344-E. I'd refresh my memory, but don't have easy access to them. Regard, Lanny On Oct 15, 2007, at 7:10 PM, DonH wrote: > Lanny wrote: > >> Just for the heck of it, to fill out Don's story, I decided to >> provide more information on the Moses Butte locality. Go to the >> following url: >> http://www.lrream.com/mosesgarnet.html > > > Hi, > > A good portion of that rock in the Goat Mtn/Moses Butte area, as well > as on the high narrow ridge where the Freezeout Lookout Tower once > was, is a garnet amphibolite. It is black, with layered white > stringers of felsic minerals and rust-red garnets. It has a gneissic > texture. I just found this paper from American Mineralogist > describing the area: > > > Vol. 41 JANUARY-FEBRUARY, 1956 Nos. 1 and 2 > > KYANITE, ANDALUSITE, AND SILLIMANITE IN THE > SCHIST IN BOEHLS BUTTE QUADRANGLE, IDAHO* > > Anna Hietanen > > Abstract > > Kyanite, andalusite, and sillimanite are found together in the > cordierite-bearing mica > schist of the Prichard formation of the Precambrian Belt series > exposed in the Boehls > Butte quadrangle in the southern part of the Idaho panhandle. > Microscopic studies of > this schist suggest that the following inversions took place: (1) > sillimanite->kyanite, > (2) sillimanite->andalusite, (3) kyanite->andalusite, (4) > kyanite->sillimanite, (5) andalusite-> > sillimanite. These inversions can be in part related to the > fluctuation of temperature > and stresses during the complex regional and thermal metamorphism to > which > the schist was subjected. In some thin sections all three > modifications occur side by side, > suggesting that they were crystallized close to the physical-chemical > conditions in which > all three may exist together. The association of epidote and > plagioclase (An36) in the > calcium-rich beds of the same area suggests that the temperature > during the crystallization > was close to 400' C. > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From lanny at lrream.com Tue Oct 16 19:33:42 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Tue Oct 16 19:33:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> Message-ID: <692dcae74fad43492f97265e257ce9bf@lrream.com> Hi John, Removal of any minerals from Acquired Lands is not allowed without a permit, there is no allowance for small quantities. When Milwaukee Timber Co. traded the Emerald Creek area lands to the FS, the garnets were suddenly not available for collecting. The rockhound community complained to their Reps and Senators. A new law was written allowing the FS to sell individual permits for a day's collecting. Under old sale-lease laws it wasn't feasible to run such a program. Thus, rockhounding was saved for the star garnets at Emerald Creek. As to the other areas with garnets on acquired lands, the FS got tired of the disturbances and closed them when they found them, including Purdue Creek, Cat's Spur Creek and along Marble Creek. One can go through the leasing/sale process and get permits for some areas, and that has been done, which is why Cat's Spur Creek may be all dug out. However, this is not a simple process and requires a mining plan, environmental analysis, etc. It's not something that can be done with a simple daily permit. People do surface collect in all these areas, some even dig for garnets, but when they are caught, they are fined. As to digging on BLM and FS lands, generally it is allowed. But not all of it is, such as the blocks of acquired land, some rights of way and now environmentally sensitive areas and other areas of significant resources to protect (archeological values, botanical values, etc.). There are all kinds of withdrawals, small and large and protected areas. Even though we tend to say that BLM and FS land is open to rockhounding activities, one should really check specific areas before doing any digging, and any sort of mineral removal, even if just picking it up off the surface. That's what we should do, but old habits are hard to break... . If you have any specific areas in mind, ask me off list, I might know what the situation is out there. Regards, Lanny On Oct 15, 2007, at 7:18 PM, John Junkroski wrote: > > On Oct 15, 2007, at 5:55 PM, Lanny wrote: > (Snip) >> >> An interesting bit of information is that nearly all the garnet >> locations (star garnet and those that are facet quality) in the >> region, at least all of those well known to the rockhound community, >> are on National Forest acquired lands. Acquired lands (by statute) >> are not open to mineral entry, thus it is illegal to go out and dig >> garnets without a permit on these lands. > > (Snip) > > Lanny, > > Thank you for your excellent information on the garnet locations, and > the outstanding photos. I hope to spend several weeks next summer in > that area. > ( Retirement is wonderful! ) > > With respect to your comment ( above ), does this apply to surface > collecting, or only to "digging holes"? > Could one legally scoop rocks out of the creek bed? I've been given > to understand that as long as you don't mess up the stream banks or > create fox-holes, collecting is permitted pretty much anywhere on > National Forest and BLM lands. > > Have you had any experience obtaining permits for collecting on those > lands? How bad is the bureaucracy? > > Thanks again, > John > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Oct 16 21:20:09 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:19:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: <692dcae74fad43492f97265e257ce9bf@lrream.com> References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> <692dcae74fad43492f97265e257ce9bf@lrream.com> Message-ID: <47158D79.3000009@verizon.net> Lanny wrote: > Even though we tend to say that BLM and FS land is open to rockhounding > activities, one should really check specific areas before doing any > digging, and any sort of mineral removal, even if just picking it up off > the surface. That's what we should do, but old habits are hard to > break... . For what it's worth, the FS is very sensitive about the Emerald Creek area, and disturbing the stream bed. As far as the more remote areas, one or two phone calls to the office have yielded no clear results. I haven't thought much about it since all my collecting is done for research or school trips, and all that is from either float, road cuts, or outcrops. I've never had to dig a hole out here. In fact, they just tore up the roads in the Moses Butte/Goat Mtn/Boehls Butte area, filling in holes, and widening the sides, thus scattering large rocks everywhere and making it easier to collect. Any time one of those pea-green FS trucks drives by, we just wave at each other, and they never stop to ask what I'm doing. Frankly I think they have far more important things to do, like deal with forest fires, ATVs, campers, hunters, tree management, counting wolves, and closing roads. I realize this doesn't offer any more official info than before, but at least I can offer my experiences in the matter. Good luck, Don From ajs at frii.com Tue Oct 16 21:45:39 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Tue Oct 16 21:45:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling In-Reply-To: <47103FF3.4C09@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com> > I usually check the barrels after 5 or 6 days to see how they are > doing... I've been doing rock tumbling for 13+ years and I gotta tell you, I never bother any more to open the barrels (or the 31" truck tire tumbler) to check on "how are they doing". After enough experimenting, I have it down to a system and it just works (almost always). So, play with it until you figure out what works for you, then get lazy and just do the system. :-) I did, long ago, explore how long it seemed to take for the coarse grit to vanish (5-6 days), which is why I just do each run for 7 days or more, for example. Cheers, Alan Silverstein From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Oct 16 22:39:36 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Oct 16 22:38:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] giant garnets exposed: a field trip gone awry In-Reply-To: <5b792262b4d1cc9cfa13be984359edf9@lrream.com> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> <903fb671e4ae7812149cd9164623be4d@lrream.com> <47141D87.5070401@verizon.net> <5b792262b4d1cc9cfa13be984359edf9@lrream.com> Message-ID: <4715A018.4090101@verizon.net> Lanny wrote: > Great, thanks Don for looking that up. It's been too long since I've > read Hietanen's reports on the metamorphism in the region Well not to beat the dead horse too much, but motivated readers can look up these papers at used booksellers and in libraries: Geology Along the Northwest Border Zone of the Idaho Batholith, Northern Idaho (Bulletin 1608) Anorthosite and Associated Rocks in the Boehls Butte Quadrangle and Vicinity Idaho Metamorphism of the Belt Series in the Elk River-Clarkia Area Idaho Belt Series in the Region Around Snow Peak and Mallard Peak, Idaho Metasomatic Metamorphism in Western Clearwater County Idaho Everyone calls this area "a mess," and I certainly can't add much to the discussion, except to confirm that it is a mess. But it has huge kyanite and huge garnet, and some of the whitest and most porcelainous feldspar I've ever seen. > Have you looked at the rock closely in those areas? Oh yes indeed. very closely. I am passing around slices of the garnet amphibolite to professors. The folks over at WSU just did some radiometric dating on the rims, and then the cores, of these garnets and determined there were two significant periods of growth spaced millions of years apart. Now I found one with three growth rings, and they want to look at it. Cutting these open is like an adventure, you never know what kind of toy surprise is inside. best, Don From jpjunk at mc.net Tue Oct 16 22:37:37 2007 From: jpjunk at mc.net (John Junkroski) Date: Tue Oct 16 22:39:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling In-Reply-To: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com> References: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <72A764E4-2B90-47C4-9BC2-DF80E59544CD@mc.net> Alan, I have a twenty year backlog of stuff I want to tumble, from Lake Superior agates to Idaho garnets and I'm reading everything I can to get going in the right direction. Most of the batches of rocks I want to polish are about a handful or two, meaning that a 31 inch truck tire would be rather over-sized. I'm thinking about an eight-inch lawn tractor tire. Any comments or suggestions? What is a reasonable speed of rotation? Would you recommend any additions to the mix ( nut shells, wood chips, marble chips etc.)? Should it be a soupy, watery slurry or drier and pasty ? Any on-line info sources you would recommend? Thanks, John On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:45 PM, Alan Silverstein wrote: >> I usually check the barrels after 5 or 6 days to see how they are >> doing... > > I've been doing rock tumbling for 13+ years and I gotta tell you, I > never bother any more to open the barrels (or the 31" truck tire > tumbler) to check on "how are they doing". After enough > experimenting, > I have it down to a system and it just works (almost always). So, > play > with it until you figure out what works for you, then get lazy and > just > do the system. :-) > > I did, long ago, explore how long it seemed to take for the coarse > grit > to vanish (5-6 days), which is why I just do each run for 7 days or > more, for example. > > Cheers, > Alan Silverstein > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Oct 17 09:38:33 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Oct 17 09:55:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing of Joe Mandarino In-Reply-To: <001001c81060$d64e7530$610fa8c0@Grimble> References: <001001c81060$d64e7530$610fa8c0@Grimble> Message-ID: <47163A89.9020806@verizon.net> Hi all, With great sadness I report the passing of the legendary Joe Mandarino. Among his many accomplishments, he is best known to the general public as having edited Fleischer's Glossary of Mineral Species, was Chair of the Commission on New Minerals and Mineral Names, wrote many of the protocols on new minerals and nomenclature, and was a regular and key figure at the Rochester Mineralogical Symposium. One of his last projects was to contribute to, and write the Foreword for, the new book on mineral ID mentioned by Tom Corson. His very last project was a new encyclopedia of minerals, which I'm told will be finished by one of his colleagues. He could be feisty and cantankerous, but also had a bizarre sense of humor. If you called him "Dr. Mandarino," he would say, "my name is Joe, and if you call me doctor again, I will take off your clothes and examine you." He was an extraordinary man, and I imagine there will be major tributes in R&M and MinRec. Take the time today to call someone whom you haven't talked to in a while. Best to all, Don From liz.fodi at utoronto.ca Wed Oct 17 10:33:12 2007 From: liz.fodi at utoronto.ca (Liz Fodi) Date: Wed Oct 17 10:27:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] passing of Joe Mandarino In-Reply-To: <47163A89.9020806@verizon.net> References: <001001c81060$d64e7530$610fa8c0@Grimble> <47163A89.9020806@verizon.net> Message-ID: <47164758.5010106@utoronto.ca> For those interested a fund has been established at the Royal Ontario Museum to purchase a specimen in memoriam. For information please contact Malcolm Back at the ROM. malcolmb@rom.on.ca Liz Fodi DonH wrote: > > Hi all, > > With great sadness I report the passing of the legendary Joe > Mandarino. Among his many accomplishments, he is best known to the > general public as having edited Fleischer's Glossary of Mineral > Species, was Chair of the Commission on New Minerals and Mineral > Names, wrote many of the protocols on new minerals and nomenclature, > and was a regular and key figure at the Rochester Mineralogical > Symposium. One of his last projects was to contribute to, and write > the Foreword for, the new book on mineral ID mentioned by Tom Corson. > His very last project was a new encyclopedia of minerals, which I'm > told will be finished by one of his colleagues. > > He could be feisty and cantankerous, but also had a bizarre sense of > humor. If you called him "Dr. Mandarino," he would say, "my name is > Joe, and if you call me doctor again, I will take off your clothes and > examine you." He was an extraordinary man, and I imagine there will > be major tributes in R&M and MinRec. > > Take the time today to call someone whom you haven't talked to in a > while. > > Best to all, > Don > > > From lanny at lrream.com Wed Oct 17 13:16:52 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Wed Oct 17 13:16:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: <47158D79.3000009@verizon.net> References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> <692dcae74fad43492f97265e257ce9bf@lrream.com> <47158D79.3000009@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4fdf9c5e934189a6e356ebde543c684b@lrream.com> I should have ended my response to John that in the area we've been discussing, my experience has been the same as what Don describes below. Most of the land is not in any closures or withdrawals, although some of it is most likely in some sort of "study area," especially if you get very far off the road. Surface collecting with hammer and chisel or just picking up loose material doesn't appear to bother anyone. The only exceptions would be those areas mentioned before where a lot of digging has disturbed the surface, and/or the land is acquired: Purdue Creek area, Emerald Creek, some drainages on Marble Creek, Cat's Spur Creek and probably a few others. Regards, Lanny On Oct 16, 2007, at 9:20 PM, DonH wrote: > Lanny wrote: > > >> Even though we tend to say that BLM and FS land is open to >> rockhounding activities, one should really check specific areas >> before doing any digging, and any sort of mineral removal, even if >> just picking it up off the surface. That's what we should do, but old >> habits are hard to break... . > > > For what it's worth, the FS is very sensitive about the Emerald Creek > area, and disturbing the stream bed. As far as the more remote areas, > one or two phone calls to the office have yielded no clear results. I > haven't thought much about it since all my collecting is done for > research or school trips, and all that is from either float, road > cuts, or outcrops. I've never had to dig a hole out here. In fact, > they just tore up the roads in the Moses Butte/Goat Mtn/Boehls Butte > area, filling in holes, and widening the sides, thus scattering large > rocks everywhere and making it easier to collect. > > Any time one of those pea-green FS trucks drives by, we just wave at > each other, and they never stop to ask what I'm doing. Frankly I > think they have far more important things to do, like deal with forest > fires, ATVs, campers, hunters, tree management, counting wolves, and > closing roads. > > I realize this doesn't offer any more official info than before, but > at least I can offer my experiences in the matter. > > > Good luck, > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From stu at arcrystalmine.com Wed Oct 17 15:45:51 2007 From: stu at arcrystalmine.com (Stu Schmitt) Date: Wed Oct 17 15:45:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Removal of any minerals from Acquired Lands References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu><470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> <692dcae74fad43492f97265e257ce9bf@lrream.com> Message-ID: <010601c8110f$787dc870$6500a8c0@STU2> Here is a good FS web page on removing minerals from acquired lands. http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/ouachita/natural-resources/minerals/procedures.shtml#01 With appreciation & gratitude, Stuart Schmitt Clear Creek Crystal Mine www.arcrystalmine.com 60 Mary's Eagle Trail Mount Ida, AR 71957 (870) 867-2443 From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Wed Oct 17 18:18:58 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Wed Oct 17 18:16:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem & Mineral Show in Rhinebeck, New York Message-ID: <000a01c81124$dc897570$6278a118@feldsparflash> To the List: If you happen to be in or near the Mid-Hudson Valley this weekend be sure you travel to Rhinebeck, NY, just 90 miles north of NYC. The Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society is hosting their 38th Annual Gem & Mineral Show & Sale at the Dutchess County Fairgrounds. We are sharing the Fairgrounds with two other events, the New York State Sheep & Wool Show and the Fairgrounds Family Festival. The Show is open Saturday 9 - 6 and Sunday 10 - 5. Admission for all Fairgrounds events is $10.00 with free parking. Last year the Fairgrounds' attendance for the weekend was 17,000. I mention this because I have heard some clubs are struggling with low attendance at their shows. We have found most families attending the other events come to the Gem & Mineral Show. Our six free minerals for kids certainly helps us ! Another educational plus is our Earth Science Scavenger Hunt for area high school students. Combining our show with the other events has been educational and sound. Carolyn Reynard, Chair. Gem & Mineral Show & Sale Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society, Inc. Poughkeepsie, NY --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Oct 17 19:18:47 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Oct 17 19:05:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com> Message-ID: <4716BF48.6D14@Tomaszewski.net> Good advice Alan, I've also got a system that generally works for traditional tumbling loads like agates, jaspers, tiger eye, etc. But I've been playing with non-traditional loads recently. My last batch was copper laced ore from the Keweenaw area. Not long ago I did opals with pea sized garnets, and used just enough carbo to produce the garnet fines that did the real work. Its hard not to peek when trying anything new -- you might learn something interesting. A good starting place to make a successful 'formula' is the tumbler manufacturer's recommendation. I would suggest moving towards somewhat less grit and slightly longer times. YMMV. I think my next load will be five different pegmatite microclines (with some fun inclusions like fluorapatite) from three different locations. Opinions on how to tumble successfully are like noses -- everyone has one. You just need to find the one that fits you. Cheers, Kreigh Alan Silverstein wrote: > > > I usually check the barrels after 5 or 6 days to see how they are > > doing... > > I've been doing rock tumbling for 13+ years and I gotta tell you, I > never bother any more to open the barrels (or the 31" truck tire > tumbler) to check on "how are they doing". After enough experimenting, > I have it down to a system and it just works (almost always). So, play > with it until you figure out what works for you, then get lazy and just > do the system. :-) > > I did, long ago, explore how long it seemed to take for the coarse grit > to vanish (5-6 days), which is why I just do each run for 7 days or > more, for example. > > Cheers, > Alan Silverstein > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Wed Oct 17 20:07:30 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Wed Oct 17 20:06:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] anyone going to GSA in Denver? Message-ID: <4716CDF2.8050108@verizon.net> Hi all, Is anyone else going to the Geological Society of America conference in Denver at the end of October? Don From ajs at frii.com Wed Oct 17 21:47:23 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Wed Oct 17 21:47:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling In-Reply-To: <72A764E4-2B90-47C4-9BC2-DF80E59544CD@mc.net> Message-ID: <20071018044723.7AA761CC35@io.frii.com> John et al, > I have a twenty year backlog of stuff I want to tumble, from Lake > Superior agates to Idaho garnets and I'm reading everything I can to > get going in the right direction. > > Most of the batches of rocks I want to polish are about a handful or > two, meaning that a 31 inch truck tire would be rather over-sized. Well now, why bother separating them by type? :-) I don't. > I'm thinking about an eight-inch lawn tractor tire. > > Any comments or suggestions? What is a reasonable speed of rotation? > Would you recommend any additions to the mix ( nut shells, wood chips, > marble chips etc.)? Should it be a soupy, watery slurry or drier and > pasty ? Any on-line info sources you would recommend? Most everything I know, is here: http://users.frii.com/ajs/RockTumbling.htm Cheers, Alan Silverstein From ajs at frii.com Wed Oct 17 21:50:38 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Wed Oct 17 21:50:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling In-Reply-To: <4716BF48.6D14@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <20071018045038.E423A1CC35@io.frii.com> > A good starting place to make a successful 'formula' is the tumbler > manufacturer's recommendation. I would suggest moving towards > somewhat less grit and slightly longer times. YMMV. Yup. Although since I figure grit is "just" an accelerator -- although a big one -- I don't know why you like to use less and run longer. Taken to an extreme, why use grit at all? Of course there's a practical limit on the grit ratio to rocks and water. Too much, and you get a thick slurry before all the grit is consumed. Cheers, Alan Silverstein From litleval at ruralnetwork.net Wed Oct 17 23:33:37 2007 From: litleval at ruralnetwork.net (Wayne Rasmussen) Date: Wed Oct 17 23:33:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com> <72A764E4-2B90-47C4-9BC2-DF80E59544CD@mc.net> Message-ID: <003501c81150$d3c8fec0$655fe842@Titans> John, I did a terrible thing to three pounds of Emerald creek Garnets by tumbling them the standard way, ending up all cracked into small pieces, I think maybe a vibra tumbler may not do that, good luck. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Junkroski" To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > Alan, > > I have a twenty year backlog of stuff I want to tumble, from Lake > Superior agates to Idaho garnets and I'm reading everything I can to get > going in the right direction. > > Most of the batches of rocks I want to polish are about a handful or two, > meaning that a 31 inch truck tire would be rather over-sized. > > I'm thinking about an eight-inch lawn tractor tire. > > Any comments or suggestions? What is a reasonable speed of rotation? > Would you recommend any additions to the mix ( nut shells, wood chips, > marble chips etc.)? > Should it be a soupy, watery slurry or drier and pasty ? Any on-line info > sources you would recommend? > > Thanks, > John > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:45 PM, Alan Silverstein wrote: > >>> I usually check the barrels after 5 or 6 days to see how they are >>> doing... >> >> I've been doing rock tumbling for 13+ years and I gotta tell you, I >> never bother any more to open the barrels (or the 31" truck tire >> tumbler) to check on "how are they doing". After enough experimenting, >> I have it down to a system and it just works (almost always). So, play >> with it until you figure out what works for you, then get lazy and just >> do the system. :-) >> >> I did, long ago, explore how long it seemed to take for the coarse grit >> to vanish (5-6 days), which is why I just do each run for 7 days or >> more, for example. >> >> Cheers, >> Alan Silverstein >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Thu Oct 18 05:45:57 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Thu Oct 18 05:45:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem & Mineral Show in Rhinebeck, New York In-Reply-To: <000a01c81124$dc897570$6278a118@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <001b01c81184$d7825fa0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> I attended this show last year and will again this weekend. I heartily recommend it -- it's a wonderful show, in a great facility, in a pretty setting (nice part of the country). Of the five shows I attend during the autumn season, this is the one I most look forward to. It really adds a lot for the show to be held in conjunction with other events, so when I (temporarily) tire of minerals I wander over to another building and learn about the different breeds of sheep, or watch someone spinning thread directly from the wool of a rabbit they have sitting on their lap. It's like a county fair with great mineral dealers. I hope some of you will be there. Cheers- Earl Verbeek ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@ptd.net -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn Reynard Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:19 PM To: Rockhounds Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem & Mineral Show in Rhinebeck, New York To the List: If you happen to be in or near the Mid-Hudson Valley this weekend be sure you travel to Rhinebeck, NY, just 90 miles north of NYC. The Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society is hosting their 38th Annual Gem & Mineral Show & Sale at the Dutchess County Fairgrounds. We are sharing the Fairgrounds with two other events, the New York State Sheep & Wool Show and the Fairgrounds Family Festival. The Show is open Saturday 9 - 6 and Sunday 10 - 5. Admission for all Fairgrounds events is $10.00 with free parking. Last year the Fairgrounds' attendance for the weekend was 17,000. I mention this because I have heard some clubs are struggling with low attendance at their shows. We have found most families attending the other events come to the Gem & Mineral Show. Our six free minerals for kids certainly helps us ! Another educational plus is our Earth Science Scavenger Hunt for area high school students. Combining our show with the other events has been educational and sound. Carolyn Reynard, Chair. Gem & Mineral Show & Sale Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society, Inc. Poughkeepsie, NY --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From lanny at lrream.com Thu Oct 18 10:07:42 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Oct 18 10:16:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling In-Reply-To: <003501c81150$d3c8fec0$655fe842@Titans> References: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com> <72A764E4-2B90-47C4-9BC2-DF80E59544CD@mc.net> <003501c81150$d3c8fec0$655fe842@Titans> Message-ID: I can't guess what happened, but tumbling Emerald Creek garnets "the standard way" is a common procedure. It is not the best way, but is a common way a lot of cutters use to smooth them to make it easier to locate star material and orient the star. Also, the easily broken pieces will separate making it less work to find the larger solid pieces. Others tumble them to polish them for use in that form. Unless you did something that is more harsh than typical in a tumbler, they should not have broken up unless they had fractures. The solid pieces of garnet are no more susceptible to breaking than any other gem material. A lot of the crystals and pieces have fractures, often these have a layer of mica and iron oxides in them so they appear as brown lines. Regards, Lanny On Oct 17, 2007, at 11:33 PM, Wayne Rasmussen wrote: > John, > > I did a terrible thing to three pounds of Emerald creek Garnets by > tumbling them the standard way, ending up all cracked into small > pieces, I think maybe a vibra tumbler > may not do that, good luck. > > Wayne > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Junkroski" > To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock > and gem collectors" > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Thu Oct 18 10:30:26 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Thu Oct 18 10:31:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling References: <20071017044539.C31681CC35@io.frii.com><72A764E4-2B90-47C4-9BC2-DF80E59544CD@mc.net><003501c81150$d3c8fec0$655fe842@Titans> Message-ID: <002f01c811ac$9803eba0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Thanks Lanny, I've been putting off tumbling mine for that very reason. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lanny" >I can't guess what happened, but tumbling Emerald Creek garnets "the > standard way" is a common procedure. From rockhounds at roadrunner.com Thu Oct 18 06:47:02 2007 From: rockhounds at roadrunner.com (Kelly Hanson) Date: Thu Oct 18 11:01:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling garnet In-Reply-To: <003501c81150$d3c8fec0$655fe842@Titans> Message-ID: <000a01c8118d$5d15f480$0200a8c0@KellyHanson> We had a expert (cutting star garnet) come to our club last year and he had us hitting the big lumps of garnet to break them down to the usable pieces. Tumbling just does it all at once. We do the same thing with garnets from that area. The cracks were there anyway and you just found a way to find the best ones. We then selected the bigger intact ones (about a pound) to send out for cutting for "stars" we hope. I will report when they get back. Kelly H -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Rasmussen Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:34 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling John, I did a terrible thing to three pounds of Emerald creek Garnets by tumbling them the standard way, ending up all cracked into small pieces, I think maybe a vibra tumbler may not do that, good luck. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Junkroski" To: ; "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:37 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling > Alan, > > I have a twenty year backlog of stuff I want to tumble, from Lake > Superior agates to Idaho garnets and I'm reading everything I can to get > going in the right direction. > > Most of the batches of rocks I want to polish are about a handful or > two, > meaning that a 31 inch truck tire would be rather over-sized. > > I'm thinking about an eight-inch lawn tractor tire. > > Any comments or suggestions? What is a reasonable speed of rotation? > Would you recommend any additions to the mix ( nut shells, wood chips, > marble chips etc.)? > Should it be a soupy, watery slurry or drier and pasty ? Any on-line info > sources you would recommend? > > Thanks, > John > > On Oct 16, 2007, at 11:45 PM, Alan Silverstein wrote: > >>> I usually check the barrels after 5 or 6 days to see how they are >>> doing... >> >> I've been doing rock tumbling for 13+ years and I gotta tell you, I >> never bother any more to open the barrels (or the 31" truck tire >> tumbler) to check on "how are they doing". After enough >> experimenting, I have it down to a system and it just works (almost >> always). So, play with it until you figure out what works for you, >> then get lazy and just do the system. :-) >> >> I did, long ago, explore how long it seemed to take for the coarse >> grit to vanish (5-6 days), which is why I just do each run for 7 days >> or more, for example. >> >> Cheers, >> Alan Silverstein >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> >> > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Thu Oct 18 13:01:15 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Thu Oct 18 12:58:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem & Mineral Show in Rhinebeck, New York References: <001b01c81184$d7825fa0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <000701c811c1$a4076ed0$6278a118@feldsparflash> Thanks Earl, for the good word about the Rhinebeck, NY Show. We hope many more of you rockhounds are able to attend. After a year of getting things done step by step and then the final rush of details in the last three weeks we appreciate your comments! BTW our fluorescent mineral display will be much better this year!! Always cheering, Carolyn Reynard Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl R. Verbeek" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:45 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Gem & Mineral Show in Rhinebeck, New York > I attended this show last year and will again this weekend. I heartily > recommend it -- it's a wonderful show, in a great facility, in a pretty > setting (nice part of the country). Of the five shows I attend during the > autumn season, this is the one I most look forward to. It really adds a lot > for the show to be held in conjunction with other events, so when I > (temporarily) tire of minerals I wander over to another building and learn > about the different breeds of sheep, or watch someone spinning thread > directly from the wool of a rabbit they have sitting on their lap. It's > like a county fair with great mineral dealers. I hope some of you will be > there. > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > ----------------------------------- > Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist > Sterling Hill Mining Museum > 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 > 973-209-7212 > shmm@ptd.net > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn Reynard > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:19 PM > To: Rockhounds > Subject: [Rockhounds] Gem & Mineral Show in Rhinebeck, New York > > To the List: > > If you happen to be in or near the Mid-Hudson Valley this weekend > be sure you travel to Rhinebeck, NY, just 90 miles north of NYC. > > The Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society is hosting their 38th > Annual Gem & Mineral Show & Sale at the Dutchess County Fairgrounds. > > We are sharing the Fairgrounds with two other events, the New York State > Sheep & Wool Show and the Fairgrounds Family Festival. > > The Show is open Saturday 9 - 6 and Sunday 10 - 5. Admission for all > Fairgrounds events is $10.00 with free parking. > > Last year the Fairgrounds' attendance for the weekend was 17,000. > I mention this because I have heard some clubs are struggling with low > attendance at their shows. > > We have found most families attending the other events come to the Gem & > Mineral Show. > Our six free minerals for kids certainly helps us ! > Another educational plus is our Earth Science Scavenger Hunt for area high > school students. > > Combining our show with the other events has been educational and sound. > > Carolyn Reynard, Chair. > Gem & Mineral Show & Sale > Mid-Hudson Valley Gem & Mineral Society, Inc. > Poughkeepsie, NY > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 09:06:49 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Oct 19 09:06:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] FW: [ngrocks] QUESTION ON LINKS OR FILES ??? looking for how to clean different types of gems In-Reply-To: <003f01c80dad$7696b270$6101a8c0@your4105e587b6> References: <003f01c80dad$7696b270$6101a8c0@your4105e587b6> Message-ID: I believe I have learned why I've had a very difficult time removing the white coating on some of my quartz crystals from the Diamond Crystal Mine near LaGrange , Georgia. Many of the crystals are naturally etched. Please read the last response below from the mine owner. Glenn To: ngrocks@yahoogroups.comFrom: sio2ga@bellsouth.netDate: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:26:44 -0500Subject: Re: [ngrocks] QUESTION ON LINKS OR FILES ??? looking for how to clean different types of gems Glenn , The lagrange quartz does clean up well with soap and water . Oxalic acid is the best cleaner though . You can get it at Ace hardware in a 12 ounce container labeled " WOOD BLEACH " for $7.00 ( this is $10 per pound ! ) . I sell it in my quasi- rockshop in Jackson , Ga . for $3.oo a pound. As far as the ones that have the white coating , this is not going to come off EVER . It is a physical attribute of the crystal as it has been etched , just like a sand blasted frosted beer mug . Rodney Check out the latest scheduled gemstone and crystal dig fieldtrips at the following link : http://www.dixieeuhedrals.com/page38.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn Wimpee To: ngrocks@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 9:15 AM Subject: RE: [ngrocks] QUESTION ON LINKS OR FILES ??? looking for how to clean different types of gems I have some quartz specimens collected at Rodney's mine near LaGrange and many have a milky white coating as well as the red clay stain. Most of the red stain cleans pretty good with mild soap and a toothbrush. But the white coating is tough. Soaking in vinegar didn't help. Suggestions please. Thanks! Glenn To: ngrocks@yahoogroups.comFrom: gene.jeffers@emp.shentel.comDate: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:35:15 -0400Subject: RE: [ngrocks] QUESTION ON LINKS OR FILES ??? looking for how to clean different types of gems I usually just use ?Super Iron Out?, which you can get in any hardware store or Walmart. Gene Jeffers From: ngrocks@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ngrocks@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of karenm2257Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 11:28 AMTo: ngrocks@yahoogroups.comSubject: [ngrocks] QUESTION ON LINKS OR FILES ??? looking for how to clean different types of gems Was look throught the different pages to this sight ,was looking for some ways to clean red clay staining / iron from calcite growths..Also have some Fluorite from crittenden co.Ky.. I thought that there might be somthing in links or files..Please let me know if I missed somthing Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. Get it now! __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (0) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Visit Your Group Yahoo! NewsGet it all hereBreaking news toentertainment news Drive TrafficSponsored Searchcan help increaseyour site traffic. Fashion Groupson Yahoo! GroupsA great place toconnect and share. . __,_._,___ _________________________________________________________________ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From TBStrohl at aol.com Fri Oct 19 18:24:05 2007 From: TBStrohl at aol.com (TBStrohl@aol.com) Date: Fri Oct 19 18:24:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] rotary tumbling Message-ID: ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Fri Oct 19 18:34:27 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Fri Oct 19 18:35:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> Here's some pictures of a hack job of glass work. This is a fuse just to "see if it works". Here's a full plate: http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica1web.jpg And a close up: http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica2web.jpg I'll be posting some detailed shots of the mica out of the glass in a day or so when I get back from sunny Duluth. Gary http://www.fusedlight.com http://www.catspaw-minerals.com From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Oct 19 20:29:47 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Oct 19 20:29:27 2007 Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures} References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Gary, Interesting work. Looks like you are having fun. I'm looking forward to your next update. You got me thinking... List, Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? Left brain users tend to be logical/analytical/factual, and right brain users tend to be artsy/feeling/imaginative. Many people can switch which brain side they use (I often can switch at will, but I usually begin Right brained). Does being interested in Lapidary make a difference? If you want to find out if you are moatly Right or Left brained you can take a visual test at http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22556281-661,00.html?from=mostpop (but watch out for the long url wrap). I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm curious about what gets people interested in our hobby, and how to find them so they can join our clubs. As a Rockhound are you mostly Right or Left brained? Kreigh Gary Brown wrote: > > > Here's some pictures of a hack job of glass work. This is a fuse just to > "see if it works". > > Here's a full plate: > > http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica1web.jpg > > And a close up: > > http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica2web.jpg > > I'll be posting some detailed shots of the mica out of the glass in a day or > so when I get back from sunny Duluth. > > Gary > http://www.fusedlight.com > http://www.catspaw-minerals.com > From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Fri Oct 19 21:43:46 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Fri Oct 19 21:45:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <003401c812d3$d2872210$0200a8c0@Notebook> Kreigh wrote: > Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? The only way I can get right brain on this test is to lie on the floor :-) As a graphic artist, and a writer, I am forced to switch from right to left brain functions at a moments notice (not always successfully) - i.e. design something, then write copy about it. Right brain being visual and left being verbal. There have been times when I have spent many hours working on an illustration and have been unable to speak coherently for hours afterwards. Beer has the same effect. Julie and I have discussed this when rockhounding or hunting for morel mushrooms. We call it getting the "Eye". We'll search and search finding nothing. Once we find the first specimen, the world seems to open up and they're everywhere. I would suggest that this is a shift to right brain function. I highly recommend the book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards for various exercises to access right brain function. It's quite a trip to notice the switch. John From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:17:10 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Oct 19 22:17:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "New" Fossil Crab Discovered Message-ID: http://www.livescience.com/animals/071019-ancient-crab.html Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 22:51:10 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Fri Oct 19 22:51:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: Well....rocks ARE things of beauty...UMMM...test, oh yes...I was distracted...she seemed to turn counterlockwise for a bit then clockwise for a few turns...then counter again...I had to watch for a while and remember it was a test... And the glasswork is hot! Glenn From: Kreigh@tomaszewski.net Gary, Interesting work. Looks like you are having fun. I'm looking forward to your next update. You got me thinking... List,Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? take a visual test at http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22556281-661,00.html?from=mostpop I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm curious about what gets people interested in our hobby, and how to find them so they can join our clubs. As a Rockhound are you mostly Right or Left brained? Kreigh _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts!? Play Star Shuffle:? the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From litleval at ruralnetwork.net Fri Oct 19 23:44:00 2007 From: litleval at ruralnetwork.net (Wayne Rasmussen) Date: Fri Oct 19 23:44:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000c01c812e4$9c036210$6d5fe842@Titans> I am well aware I have always been Heavily Right Brained with a close second as a Left Brain, this test also shows that to be true. Your right Glenn, the glass work is great. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Wimpee" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:51 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? Well....rocks ARE things of beauty...UMMM...test, oh yes...I was distracted...she seemed to turn counterlockwise for a bit then clockwise for a few turns...then counter again...I had to watch for a while and remember it was a test... And the glasswork is hot! Glenn From: Kreigh@tomaszewski.net Gary, Interesting work. Looks like you are having fun. I'm looking forward to your next update. You got me thinking... List,Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? take a visual test at http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22556281-661,00.html?from=mostpop I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm curious about what gets people interested in our hobby, and how to find them so they can join our clubs. As a Rockhound are you mostly Right or Left brained? Kreigh _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_oct --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From crystalelf228 at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 00:17:20 2007 From: crystalelf228 at gmail.com (operator crystalelf) Date: Sat Oct 20 00:17:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hello from new member Message-ID: <95e262e00710200017w31d93340y890361416b53b77c@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I am SK Lai, from Hong Kong, nice to meet you in this rockhound list. Just take up the hobby of mineral collecting for 4 years, occassionally go back to China to source mineral specimens. I would like to meet new friends in here to learn more about rocks, gems and minerals. Cheers, SK --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From crystalelf228 at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 00:29:25 2007 From: crystalelf228 at gmail.com (operator crystalelf) Date: Sat Oct 20 00:29:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] [AD] hexagonal calcite, wolframite, fluorite lot for sale Message-ID: <95e262e00710200029n24820d09w8fc9fd153c66e831@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Everytime I went back to China I got a lot of new and special minerals. I usually sell them in eBay but they are also available for bulk purchase. Here is the newest items that I offer. Calcite from Hunan, China : This are white calcite from Hunan, China. They are white calcite with dogtooth form, some are characterized by its tabular hexagonal shape. some of these hexagonal crystals are quite large in size. Wolframite : >From the famous Yaogangxian tungsten mine, which are lustrous crystals of miniature to thumbnail size. Fluorite : Also from Yaogangxian mine, these are colorful fluorite specimens with good quality! (green, blue or purple color) Some are associated with quartz, arsenopyrite, mica. Several pieces are included with bismuthinite. Photo and price info are available on request. I also got some Epidote from Sichuan, Azurite / Malachite from Guizhou, Japan law twin quartz from Madagascar, Amethyst scepter from Madagascar, Tourmaline from Afghanistan, Aquamarine from Pakistan. For my items in eBay please visit the following links : http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcrystalelf228 Thank you. SK From shartzell at qwest.net Sat Oct 20 03:02:35 2007 From: shartzell at qwest.net (Stephanie Hartzell) Date: Sat Oct 20 03:02:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Hello from new member In-Reply-To: <95e262e00710200017w31d93340y890361416b53b77c@mail.gmail.com> References: <95e262e00710200017w31d93340y890361416b53b77c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41114F0E-AFAD-408B-A6C6-301A211A18B8@qwest.net> welcome crystalelf! I too am a new member and have learned so much from reading these often funny and informative ditties from those who share my same interests. I am currently hauling over 250# of gathered Oregon, Idaho, Washington stones to my new home in central OR to set up a lapidary shop. Hope to be making some beautiful cabs for my jewelry business to soon share with others on this site. rock on...steph On Oct 20, 2007, at 12:17 AM, operator crystalelf wrote: > Hi, > > I am SK Lai, from Hong Kong, nice to meet you in this rockhound list. > > Just take up the hobby of mineral collecting for 4 years, > occassionally go > back to China to source mineral specimens. I would like to meet new > friends > in here to learn more about rocks, gems and minerals. > > Cheers, > > SK > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From lavenderfish at cox.net Sat Oct 20 07:41:48 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Sat Oct 20 07:41:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi><4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <003401c812d3$d2872210$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <00aa01c81327$59c25760$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> What a great question! I'm a biologist doing research in a lab by day, so mostly left brainage there with a bit of right braininess when conceiving and designing an experiment. By nights & weekends, total immersion in right brain activity while buzzing away on the piece of rock I happen to be carving or cabbing. As for the image in the video, when I first look at her she twirls counterclockwise but then after some concentration she'll start twirling clockwise. Maybe it depends on what flavor of rockhound you are. Perhaps a... ...collector picks up a mineral appreciating its overall beauty and how good of an example it is for that particular gemstone (right brain) ...geologist picks up a rock and asks What's the mineral content and how was it formed? (left brain) ...lapidary artist picks up the same rock based on its pattern and color (right-brain) then asks with the left-brain Is it solid enough to cut? Will it take a good polish? What kind of tools will I use? etc.... ...miner picks up the rock and asks Can I sell it? and How much can I get for it? (left brain) or Hmmm, what's a pretty name I can call this piece of leaverite and make everyone scramble to buy some? (right brain!+left brain) What other kinds of rockhounds are there and which way will the dancer go? From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sat Oct 20 08:06:04 2007 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:06:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? Message-ID: ok..I think this was a fun distraction, but I am not getting it. An object spins in one direction or another. That does not depend on the left or right dominance of the brain. This is like saying to stare at your record player (I know..dating myself!) and asking which way it turns. I watched the dancer turn counter clockwise, clockwise and the counter again. There is a slight hitch in her turn when she changes direction.....as I said, a fun distraction, but I think there is a randomization routine in the animation that makes it change direction..... Or am I being Left Brained???? Jeff Ursillo Chain of Events Unique cabochons _www.chainofevents.esty.com_ (http://www.chainofevents.esty.com/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rico at ricosweb.net Sat Oct 20 08:22:06 2007 From: rico at ricosweb.net (Rich Allen) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:22:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <471A1D1E.5080409@ricosweb.net> For what it's worth, the dancer spun clockwise for me no matter how long I watched and tried to make her spin the other way. Rich Allen BNMJEFF@aol.com wrote: > ok..I think this was a fun distraction, but I am not getting it. An object > spins in one direction or another. That does not depend on the left or right > dominance of the brain. This is like saying to stare at your record player (I > know..dating myself!) and asking which way it turns. I watched the dancer > turn counter clockwise, clockwise and the counter again. There is a slight > hitch in her turn when she changes direction.....as I said, a fun distraction, > but I think there is a randomization routine in the animation that makes it > change direction..... > > Or am I being Left Brained???? > > > > Jeff Ursillo > Chain of Events > Unique cabochons > _www.chainofevents.esty.com_ (http://www.chainofevents.esty.com/) > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Sat Oct 20 08:29:47 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:30:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> Question on the mica... I've found that I've really got to heat the mica up to around 1400F (and then cool it, duh!) before I use it in my work. When "raw" the mica is very stiff. After the heat there's a color change from silvery to golden, and the sheets are very, very flexible...almost like cloth. I'm guessing there's some sort of molecular bonding change going on. Anyone know? GcB From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Sat Oct 20 08:33:18 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:33:36 2007 Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} In-Reply-To: <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <00bd01c8132e$8acc3040$6b01a8c0@okapi> Right-handed, no matter what I tried. Weird, though, when you consider my day-gig is as a programmer. GcB > Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: > [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} > > > If you want to find out if you are moatly Right or Left > brained you can take a visual test at > > > http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22556281-661,00 > .html?from=mostpop > > > Kreigh From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Sat Oct 20 08:22:27 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Sat Oct 20 08:33:57 2007 Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} In-Reply-To: <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <00b801c8132d$0689cf50$6b01a8c0@okapi> Right or left? Hmmmm... Some of my friends say "no brain". Sorry. Couldn't resist. I'm being pleasantly surprises at the number of rockhounds that I'm encountering over on the glass lists. Some of them may be lurking over HERE even as I write (it's ok to lift you hands up and say "hi"). What I have found HIGHLY humorous is the "job survey" I took back in the early 90's. One of those vocational preference companies was surveying programmers to see what our answers to standard questions were so they could come up with one of those things that says "You have a high affinity for becoming a programmer". One of the perks of taking the survey was getting a copy of where I stood on their current survey. I remember filing the thing away...but it came to the surface last year when I moved. I about fell over when I saw that the HIGHEST ranking of anything on their was for a career as an "artist". How about that! The darn thing was right. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Kreigh Tomaszewski > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 10:30 PM > To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: > [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} > > Gary, > > Interesting work. Looks like you are having fun. I'm looking > forward to your next update. You got me thinking... > > List, > > Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? > > > Kreigh From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Oct 20 10:21:53 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Oct 20 10:21:52 2007 Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} In-Reply-To: <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> I think both hemispheres, Kreigh. Our sense of appreciation of the beauty of minerals usually kick-starts the analytical processes that lead to understanding. Tickles the curiosity-muscle in the left half. That's how I got started anyway ;-)) Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Kreigh > Tomaszewski > Verzonden: zaterdag 20 oktober 2007 4:30 > Aan: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A > mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Onderwerp: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: > [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} > > Gary, > > Interesting work. Looks like you are having fun. I'm looking > forward to your next update. You got me thinking... > > List, > > Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? > > Left brain users tend to be logical/analytical/factual, and > right brain users tend to be artsy/feeling/imaginative. > > Many people can switch which brain side they use (I often can > switch at will, but I usually begin Right brained). > > Does being interested in Lapidary make a difference? > > If you want to find out if you are moatly Right or Left > brained you can take a visual test at > > > http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22556281-661,00 > .html?from=mostpop > > (but watch out for the long url wrap). > > I hope this isn't too far off topic. I'm curious about what > gets people interested in our hobby, and how to find them so > they can join our clubs. > > As a Rockhound are you mostly Right or Left brained? > > Kreigh > > > > > > Gary Brown wrote: > > > > > > Here's some pictures of a hack job of glass work. This is > a fuse just > > to "see if it works". > > > > Here's a full plate: > > > > http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica1web.jpg > > > > And a close up: > > > > http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica2web.jpg > > > > I'll be posting some detailed shots of the mica out of the > glass in a > > day or so when I get back from sunny Duluth. > > > > Gary > > http://www.fusedlight.com > > http://www.catspaw-minerals.com > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sat Oct 20 11:23:30 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sat Oct 20 11:23:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <001c01c81346$51261d70$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Me thinks that the heat loosens the crystal sheets. Very thin sheets are transparent to translucent so the refraction of light in loosely stacked sheets is probably quite different from tightly packed sheets. My two Eurocents ;-))) BTW: I am thoroughly impressed by your creativity... Absolutely very artsy. I would appreciate it if you kept me (us) informed about any new processes or techniques. Cheers. Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Gary Brown > Verzonden: zaterdag 20 oktober 2007 16:30 > Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Onderwerp: RE: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures > > Question on the mica... I've found that I've really got to > heat the mica up to around 1400F (and then cool it, duh!) > before I use it in my work. When "raw" the mica is very > stiff. After the heat there's a color change from silvery to > golden, and the sheets are very, very flexible...almost like > cloth. I'm guessing there's some sort of molecular bonding > change going on. > Anyone know? > > GcB > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sat Oct 20 12:32:52 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sat Oct 20 12:33:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ad- Blue/green Apophyllite References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi><4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not look at all like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. These are different in color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, with the prism being elongated and frequently twinned. Apparently they never occur as single crystals.The matrix (Natrolite) is mamillary and stalagmatitic. My Indian friend who sends me minerals from there says that these are occasionally found there and prized by the miners for their color and gem-like appearance. I would appreciate any any comment on these odd crystals from any mineralogists in the group (and also anyone interested in buying any, of course!). Larry www.ConnRoxMinerals.com From murowchickj at umkc.edu Sat Oct 20 13:07:37 2007 From: murowchickj at umkc.edu (Jim Murowchick) Date: Sat Oct 20 13:07:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: Gary- Mica is a hydrous mineral, and contains OH groups, and often some water in the interlayer sites. Heating can cause the water to separate the structural layers (heating vermiculite, causing it to expand, is an extreme example of this). The expansion probably disrupts the ionic bonds between the interlayer potassium ions and oxygens in the tetrahedral layers, allowing the sheets to slide past one another when bent. Normally, mica is elastic because the potassium-oxygen ionic bonds stretch, but pull the sheets back into their original positions when the stress is released. Without the ionic bonds pulling the sheets back into place, the sheets will remain displaced and the crystal will remain bent (i.e., flexible, but not elastic). I know that's only a very brief description of what's probably happening, but take a look at a picture of the structure of biotite or muscovite and the strongly internally bonded sheets and the localization of the weaker ionic bonding between the sheets should be apparent. Rapid heating of micas can blow them apart--I've worked on the R&D end this to produce very thin flakes for a variety of commercial uses. It might also explain some of the results you got in your early attempts to incorporate mica with the glass. The results look great, though. Best regards, Jim Murowchick On 10/20/07 10:29 AM, "Gary Brown" wrote: > Question on the mica... I've found that I've really got to heat the mica up > to around 1400F (and then cool it, duh!) before I use it in my work. When > "raw" the mica is very stiff. After the heat there's a color change from > silvery to golden, and the sheets are very, very flexible...almost like > cloth. I'm guessing there's some sort of molecular bonding change going on. > Anyone know? > > GcB From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sat Oct 20 15:39:38 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Oct 20 15:39:50 2007 Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] MicaProgress Report - Pictures} In-Reply-To: <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush> <000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <471A41AC000076E5@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) As a teacher (for over 40 years) I have done a lot of research on how people learn and different learning styles. As an artist who loves geology, married to an astronomer who loves art and music, I've experienced the mix of the so-called right and left hemisphere abilities.  One special test called the Gregorc 4-Quadrant Model attempts to analyze a person's learning style in terms of Concrete, Abstract, Sequential, and Random. Anthony Gregorc said that people can be grouped in the following way: Concrete Sequential learners want step by step instructions using real examples you can touch. They are practical and well organized, and strive for perfection and have an eye for detail. Concrete Random learners want real examples, but want to browse through the knowledge in a trial and error manner. Rather than a plan, they want options. Creativity is impulsive and inventive but springs from a core of measurable techniques. Abstract Sequential learners want clear visual material that is well organized. For them, creativity lies within models, theories, and synthesizing. They prefer an environment that is ordered but mentally stimulating. Abstract Random learners like a trial and error approach to visual material. Creativity is imaginative, impulsive, and is often expressed through music and art. They focus on emotions, relationships and memories. In this model it would seem that the Concrete Sequential people are the most like the typical Left Brain, while the Abstract Random are most like Right Brain types. A web search for {quot}Left Right Brain{quot} and {quot}Gregorc 4-Quadrant Model" will produce many interesting results. The following site shows a discussion of learning styles and right-left dominance that is especially interesting because some of the participants give links to more information. IMO it's worth scrolling down and reading. http://www.trainingzone.co.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=124434 The main conclusion from this and from my own experience is that the simple idea of right and left functions is outdated and insufficient to understand brain function. A knowledge of different learning styles is very useful for teachers and for your own personal development. But the brain is a complicated machine and whenever you think you have something or someone figured out, you'll find exceptions. As for rockhounds? It's fairly obvious that there are some who care only for the scientific side and even when they acknowledge that (for example) a crystal is pretty, they are really most interested in its structure. And there are those at the other extreme who don't give a hoot for any analysis and may not even care much about accurate identification: they just like the beauty of specimens, or the process of collecting, or the creative side of lapidary or ceramics or sculpture. I suspect most of us are a blend, however. And the right and left sides of the brain DO communicate, and we DO use both of them, often simultaneously. Aloha, Kitty --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sat Oct 20 15:53:03 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sat Oct 20 15:53:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue/green Apophyllite question In-Reply-To: <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush> <000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <4714A86D000E4068@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) A lot of people skip right over something with AD in the topic, so I thought I'd re-submit Larry's post without that, and give the link directly to the page with the unusual apophyllite. I'd be interested in any mineralogists' comments too. http://www.connroxminerals.com/India.html Aloha, Kitty At 09:32 AM 10/20/2007, Lawrence Rush wrote: >I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of >Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not >look at all like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. >These are different in color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, >with the prism being elongated and frequently twinned. Apparently >they never occur as single crystals.The matrix (Natrolite) is >mamillary and stalagmatitic. My Indian friend who sends me minerals >from there says that these are occasionally found there and prized >by the miners for their color and gem-like appearance. > >I would appreciate any any comment on these odd crystals from any >mineralogists in the group (and also anyone interested in buying >any, of course!). > >Larry From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Oct 20 16:45:44 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Oct 20 16:42:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <471A9259.4CB3@Tomaszewski.net> A little Google searching found some abstracts that talked about dehydroxylation occurring in Mica at 1400 C with subsequent formation of AlO4 and AlO5. Another talked about loss of bonding preference when heating Mica above 1200 C. I also found a patent that talked about using synthetic fluoromica instead of mica in electrical insulation to get around the loss of structural integrity when natural mica is heated above 1000C. Gary Brown wrote: > > Question on the mica... I've found that I've really got to heat the mica up > to around 1400F (and then cool it, duh!) before I use it in my work. When > "raw" the mica is very stiff. After the heat there's a color change from > silvery to golden, and the sheets are very, very flexible...almost like > cloth. I'm guessing there's some sort of molecular bonding change going on. > Anyone know? > > GcB > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Oct 20 18:55:37 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Oct 20 18:55:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue/green Apophyllite question References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush> <000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi> <003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1> <019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> <4714A86D000E4068@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <471AB195.37C9@Tomaszewski.net> The significant change in color and crystal form/habit makes me wonder if there is a fundamental change in the physical structure from some subtle replacement that would make this a new mineral. Odds are it is just a varient of Apophyllite, but I am curious as to what makes the differences from what is usually found at the location. Kreigh Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > A lot of people skip right over something with AD in the topic, so I > thought I'd re-submit Larry's post without that, and give the link > directly to the page with the unusual apophyllite. I'd be interested > in any mineralogists' comments too. > > http://www.connroxminerals.com/India.html > > Aloha, Kitty > > At 09:32 AM 10/20/2007, Lawrence Rush wrote: > >I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of > >Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not > >look at all like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. > >These are different in color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, > >with the prism being elongated and frequently twinned. Apparently > >they never occur as single crystals.The matrix (Natrolite) is > >mamillary and stalagmatitic. My Indian friend who sends me minerals > >from there says that these are occasionally found there and prized > >by the miners for their color and gem-like appearance. > > > >I would appreciate any any comment on these odd crystals from any > >mineralogists in the group (and also anyone interested in buying > >any, of course!). > > > >Larry > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From marksev at cox.net Sat Oct 20 18:58:20 2007 From: marksev at cox.net (Mark Severns) Date: Sat Oct 20 18:58:14 2007 Subject: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds]MicaProgress Report - Pictures} References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com><006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi><4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net><001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <471A41AC000076E5@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <004201c81385$db572a40$030ba8c0@markA86DE9A744> Awsome, Kitty! Thank you for the information! Mark in Arizona ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kitty & Bill Heacox" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:39 PM Subject: RE: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? {was: Re: [Rockhounds]MicaProgress Report - Pictures} > > > As a teacher (for over 40 years) I have done a lot of research on how > people learn and different learning styles. As an artist who loves > geology, married to an astronomer who loves art and music, I've > experienced the mix of the so-called right and left hemisphere > abilities.  > > > One special test called the Gregorc 4-Quadrant Model attempts to analyze > a person's learning style in terms of Concrete, Abstract, Sequential, and > Random. Anthony Gregorc said that people can be grouped in the > following way: > > > Concrete Sequential learners want step by step instructions using > real examples you can touch. They are practical and well organized, > and strive for perfection and have an eye for detail. > > > Concrete Random learners want real examples, but want to browse > through the knowledge in a trial and error manner. Rather than a > plan, they want options. Creativity is impulsive and inventive but > springs from a core of measurable techniques. > > > Abstract Sequential learners want clear visual material that is > well organized. For them, creativity lies within models, theories, > and synthesizing. They prefer an environment that is ordered but > mentally stimulating. > > > Abstract Random learners like a trial and error approach to visual > material. Creativity is imaginative, impulsive, and is often > expressed through music and art. They focus on emotions, relationships > and memories. > > > In this model it would seem that the Concrete Sequential people are the > most like the typical Left Brain, while the Abstract Random are most like > Right Brain types. > > > A web search for {quot}Left Right Brain{quot} and {quot}Gregorc > 4-Quadrant Model" will produce many interesting results. > > > The following site shows a discussion of learning styles and right-left > dominance that is especially interesting because some of the participants > give links to more information. IMO it's worth scrolling down and > reading. > > > > http://www.trainingzone.co.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=124434 > > > The main conclusion from this and from my own experience is that the > simple idea of right and left functions is outdated and insufficient to > understand brain function. A knowledge of different learning styles > is very useful for teachers and for your own personal development. > But the brain is a complicated machine and whenever you think you have > something or someone figured out, you'll find exceptions. > > > As for rockhounds? It's fairly obvious that there are some who care > only for the scientific side and even when they acknowledge that (for > example) a crystal is pretty, they are really most interested in its > structure. And there are those at the other extreme who don't give > a hoot for any analysis and may not even care much about accurate > identification: they just like the beauty of specimens, or the > process of collecting, or the creative side of lapidary or ceramics or > sculpture. I suspect most of us are a blend, however. And the > right and left sides of the brain DO communicate, and we DO use both of > them, often simultaneously. > > > Aloha, Kitty > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > text/html (html body -- converted) > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From geenet at centurytel.net Sat Oct 20 21:53:17 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Sat Oct 20 21:53:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <002a01c8139e$4cd272c0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> As expected, I'm definitely in my "right" mind. Always have been. Lapidary I'd say was right brained, but I'd bet that left brain people lean toward faceting. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > List, > > Do Rockhounds usually use their Right or their Left brain? > > Left brain users tend to be logical/analytical/factual, and right brain > users tend to be artsy/feeling/imaginative. > > Many people can switch which brain side they use (I often can switch at > will, but I usually begin Right brained). > > Does being interested in Lapidary make a difference? > > If you want to find out if you are moatly Right or Left brained you can > take a visual test at > From geenet at centurytel.net Sat Oct 20 22:23:53 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Sat Oct 20 22:24:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: Message-ID: <005a01c813a2$92d40fa0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> She doesn't change her direction, your brain perceives the direction by "seeing" which leg is lifted, the one nearest you, or her opposite, even though since the figure is solid black there are no "lines" giving the eyes clues to which it is. Since your brain knows she has to spin on the leg she's standing on whichever leg you "see" as the standing leg determines the direction you see her spinnng. I wonder if our own "right handedness" or "left handedness" puts a "spin" on which leg we see as the standing leg rather than right or left brain. ....pun intended. If you stare at her long enough you start to see shadows and contours of her body to support what your brain perceives. Or am I just using my right brained imagination... Jeanette Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? > ok..I think this was a fun distraction, but I am not getting it. An object > spins in one direction or another. That does not depend on the left or > right > dominance of the brain. This is like saying to stare at your record player > (I > know..dating myself!) and asking which way it turns. I watched the dancer > turn counter clockwise, clockwise and the counter again. There is a slight > hitch in her turn when she changes direction.....as I said, a fun > distraction, > but I think there is a randomization routine in the animation that makes > it > change direction..... > > Or am I being Left Brained???? > > > > Jeff Ursillo From rockcurrier at cs.com Sun Oct 21 00:16:28 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Sun Oct 21 00:18:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Lary, It is very unlikely that the apophyllite crystals are growing on natrolite. When I first went to India they called anything thin, white and prismatic natrolite. None of the many, many specimens of white prismatic minerals I encountered ever turned out to be natrolite. Also none of the mamillary or stalactitic material was ever identified as natrolite either. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a confirmed find of natrolite in India except in one specimen and the natrolite was confirmed optically to be located in the center of a small prismatic mesolite crystal from the quarry the runners called Malad to the north of Bombay. You might want to ask you supplier who did the analysis of the specimens and then contact them to determine what tests they ran. Also the locality for the apophyllite is not likely to be Jalgaon. Jalgaon is a sizeable city and most of the specimens attributed to that city actually come from quarries some miles to the west of there near a village called Paldi. Rock I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not look at all like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. These are different in color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, with the prism being elongated and frequently twinned. Apparently they never occur as single crystals.The matrix (Natrolite) is mamillary and stalagmatitic. From dawnmfredricks at msn.com Sun Oct 21 00:19:28 2007 From: dawnmfredricks at msn.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Sun Oct 21 00:19:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left? Message-ID: What about us poor souls that are right & left handed? I write and eat with my left hand, but everything else, baseball, lead off foot etc. is right? Dawn Fredricks --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 06:19:24 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Sun Oct 21 06:19:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <518063.86370.qm@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That's fairly common- most left-handed people, like myself, are ambidextrous. It's because we live in a right-handed world. Many things, like scissors, are made to be used with the right hand, so we grow up using both hands, and therefore can use both hands. Right-handed people, on the other hand (Pun unintentional) generally use only their right hand most of the time, so they don't have the strength or dexterity in their left. Jim Daly "Dawn M. Fredricks" wrote: What about us poor souls that are right & left handed? I write and eat with my left hand, but everything else, baseball, lead off foot etc. is right? Dawn Fredricks --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 21 06:44:24 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Oct 21 06:44:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> Thanks, Rock..... You are right, the hardness of the matrix is around 6-7, and it is insoluble in HCl. This material is concretionary in appearance, and is not erosional. It is possibly quartz. There are distinct perfect hemispheres of a softer,white material (Stilbite?) on a few of the Apophyllite crystals. As an additional note, there is a green, radiating mineral, which shows in the center of the stalactites/stalagmites. This is dark green, fibrous, and relatively soft. I have asked the supplier what quarry these came from, but, as you know, it is not always easy to get specifics from the people who pass these specimens on. Thanks again......Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rock Currier" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:16 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite > Lary, > > It is very unlikely that the apophyllite crystals are growing on > natrolite. When I first went to India they called anything thin, white and > prismatic natrolite. None of the many, many specimens of white prismatic > minerals I encountered ever turned out to be natrolite. Also none of the > mamillary or stalactitic material was ever identified as natrolite either. > To the best of my knowledge there has never been a confirmed find of > natrolite in India except in one specimen and the natrolite was confirmed > optically to be located in the center of a small prismatic mesolite > crystal from the quarry the runners called Malad to the north of Bombay. > You might want to ask you supplier who did the analysis of the specimens > and then contact them to determine what tests they ran. Also the locality > for the apophyllite is not likely to be Jalgaon. Jalgaon is a sizeable > city and most of the specimens attributed to that city actually come from > quarries some miles to the west of there near a village called Paldi. > > Rock > > > > I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of > Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not look at > all > like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. These are different > in > color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, with the prism being > elongated > and frequently twinned. Apparently they never occur as single crystals.The > matrix (Natrolite) is mamillary and stalagmatitic. > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sun Oct 21 07:39:00 2007 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 21 07:39:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? Message-ID: Sorry..I don't see it that way..pun intended..LOL If something is turning in one direction, then that is the way it is turning. To me this is like saying you can look at your watch, see the second hand turning clockwise, and then by shifting brain hemispheres, make it appear turn counterclockwise.... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From bobl at peaktopeak.com Sun Oct 21 10:25:24 2007 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Sun Oct 21 10:24:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200710211724.l9LHOoUB017483@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I think they are saying that it's an optical illusion. Which illusion you see (spinning clockwise or counter-clockwise) depends on which brain hemisphere you are using at that time. But, I don't know if I believe it either because I can make her spin in a different direction by looking at the shadow of her feet. Look at the girl and she is spinning in one direction. Then look at the feet shadows for a few seconds (especially the shadow that disappears). Then look at her again and she is spinning in the opposite direction. Just an optical illusion that probably has nothing to do with left/right brain. Or, there is a randomizer as you already mentioned and maybe it's a coincidence that it switches when I look at her shadow. I am a "left brain" (logical, detail-oriented, math/science, etc) guy 90% of the time, but I have some "right brain" tendencies (can "get it", spatial perception, presents possibilities). Regards, Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of BNMJEFF@aol.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:39 AM To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? Sorry..I don't see it that way..pun intended..LOL If something is turning in one direction, then that is the way it is turning. To me this is like saying you can look at your watch, see the second hand turning clockwise, and then by shifting brain hemispheres, make it appear turn counterclockwise.... ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sun Oct 21 10:49:52 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Oct 21 10:49:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite In-Reply-To: <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com><002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <001b01c8140a$c8d09340$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Vanadium is known to color some minerals in some shades of blue... On the other hand: so are iron and titanium. http://www.minsocam.org/MSA/collectors_corner/arc/apophyllite.htm Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Lawrence Rush > Verzonden: zondag 21 oktober 2007 14:44 > Aan: Rock Currier; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for > rock and gem collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite > > Thanks, Rock..... You are right, the hardness of the matrix > is around 6-7, and it is insoluble in HCl. This material is > concretionary in appearance, and is not erosional. It is > possibly quartz. There are distinct perfect hemispheres of a > softer,white material (Stilbite?) on a few of the Apophyllite > crystals. As an additional note, there is a green, radiating > mineral, which shows in the center of the > stalactites/stalagmites. This is dark green, fibrous, and > relatively soft. > > I have asked the supplier what quarry these came from, but, > as you know, it is not always easy to get specifics from the > people who pass these specimens on. > > Thanks again......Larry > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rock Currier" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:16 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite > > > > Lary, > > > > It is very unlikely that the apophyllite crystals are growing on > > natrolite. When I first went to India they called anything > thin, white and > > prismatic natrolite. None of the many, many specimens of > white prismatic > > minerals I encountered ever turned out to be natrolite. > Also none of the > > mamillary or stalactitic material was ever identified as > natrolite either. > > To the best of my knowledge there has never been a > confirmed find of > > natrolite in India except in one specimen and the natrolite > was confirmed > > optically to be located in the center of a small prismatic mesolite > > crystal from the quarry the runners called Malad to the > north of Bombay. > > You might want to ask you supplier who did the analysis of > the specimens > > and then contact them to determine what tests they ran. > Also the locality > > for the apophyllite is not likely to be Jalgaon. Jalgaon is > a sizeable > > city and most of the specimens attributed to that city > actually come from > > quarries some miles to the west of there near a village > called Paldi. > > > > Rock > > > > > > > > I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of > > Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they > do not look at > > all > > like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. These > are different > > in > > color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, with the prism being > > elongated > > and frequently twinned. Apparently they never occur as > single crystals.The > > matrix (Natrolite) is mamillary and stalagmatitic. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From efkern at earthlink.net Sun Oct 21 11:09:46 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Sun Oct 21 11:09:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com><002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <001a01c8140d$917b33c0$82fff604@TheBlackAdder> The 'softer white mineral' may be okenite which is found with Indian zeolites. This is a WA guess on my part, haven't researched it. Anyone agree or disagree? Erich Kern ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Rush To: Rock Currier ; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:44 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite Thanks, Rock..... You are right, the hardness of the matrix is around 6-7, and it is insoluble in HCl. This material is concretionary in appearance, and is not erosional. It is possibly quartz. There are distinct perfect hemispheres of a softer,white material (Stilbite?) on a few of the Apophyllite crystals. As an additional note, there is a green, radiating mineral, which shows in the center of the stalactites/stalagmites. This is dark green, fibrous, and relatively soft. I have asked the supplier what quarry these came from, but, as you know, it is not always easy to get specifics from the people who pass these specimens on. Thanks again......Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rock Currier" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 3:16 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite > Lary, > > It is very unlikely that the apophyllite crystals are growing on > natrolite. When I first went to India they called anything thin, white and > prismatic natrolite. None of the many, many specimens of white prismatic > minerals I encountered ever turned out to be natrolite. Also none of the > mamillary or stalactitic material was ever identified as natrolite either. > To the best of my knowledge there has never been a confirmed find of > natrolite in India except in one specimen and the natrolite was confirmed > optically to be located in the center of a small prismatic mesolite > crystal from the quarry the runners called Malad to the north of Bombay. > You might want to ask you supplier who did the analysis of the specimens > and then contact them to determine what tests they ran. Also the locality > for the apophyllite is not likely to be Jalgaon. Jalgaon is a sizeable > city and most of the specimens attributed to that city actually come from > quarries some miles to the west of there near a village called Paldi. > > Rock > > > > I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of > Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not look at > all > like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. These are different > in > color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, with the prism being > elongated > and frequently twinned. Apparently they never occur as single crystals.The > matrix (Natrolite) is mamillary and stalagmatitic. > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 21 11:35:18 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Sun Oct 21 11:35:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] October Reflections References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com><002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <000601c81411$24a546b0$ff44294b@LarryRush> With my deepest apologies to Robert Frost............ Stopping By The Quarry On a Sunny Sunday Whose quarry this is I think I know. His house is in the village though; He will not mind me digging below, For I am lusting for his minerals so. The village Cop must think it queer For me to dig with a Private sign so near Between the highway and the condos clear On this the nicest Sunday of the year. He gives me a lecture after a shake, And tells me I have made a mistake, I should have spent the day at the lake, And gives me the paper summons to take. The quarry is lovely, with crystals so big. But the judge orders me to report to the brig, And I have months to go before I can dig. And months to go before I can dig. Larry Rush From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sun Oct 21 11:50:52 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Oct 21 11:50:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: <005a01c813a2$92d40fa0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <005a01c813a2$92d40fa0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <4714A86D000FC1F4@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) I think you're on the right track, Jeanette. I believe it is similar to looking at any fixed optical illusion (is this image concave or convex? ---for example). If you google "vase face" you'll see a figure-ground example where silhouettes of two people in profile facing each other (in black) form an image of a vase (in white); your mind can "flip" the image back and forth between faces and vase. This is what happens I think, Jeff, when you perceive a "hitch" as the dancer appears to change direction. In "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards (previously mentioned by John Siebel) there are several exercises that I've used for years with my art students to encourage the development of conscious use of both sides of the brain. Placing a line-drawing of a person upside down and attempting to copy it is an example: you stop looking at the drawing as a person and think of it as a pattern of lines and have to look at how far one line is from another, rather than whether a line represents a nose or a hand. For rockhounds, this sharing or using of different aspects of the brain can be seen (as again, I believe John Siebel mentioned), in such occasions as when you find a particular kind of rock (or mushroom or shell) and all of a sudden you start discovering more of them as if they leap out at you. It's not that there are suddenly more of what you're looking for, its that your mind has focused on your "prey" and helps you zero in on it. And of course the rockhound who is a scientist AND an artist (like Gary) is not unusual at all. The dancer represents a moving optical illusion, and your brain is capable of making it seem to change direction. However I'm not convinced it effectively measures who is right or left brained, partly because the distinction between right and left brain activity---and right and left handedness---is not as clearly defined as we've been led to believe by experts over the years. A very good explanation of this is on Wikipedia under the topic Lateralization of brain function: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function Aloha, Kitty At 07:23 PM 10/20/2007, Jeanette wrote: >She doesn't change her direction, your brain perceives the direction >by "seeing" which leg is lifted, the one nearest you, or her >opposite, even though since the figure is solid black there are no >"lines" giving the eyes clues to which it is. Since your brain knows >she has to spin on the leg she's standing on whichever leg you "see" >as the standing leg determines the direction you see her spinnng. I >wonder if our own "right handedness" or "left handedness" puts a >"spin" on which leg we see as the standing leg rather than right or >left brain. ....pun intended. If you stare at her long enough you >start to see shadows and contours of her body to support what your >brain perceives. Or am I just using my right brained imagination... >Jeanette > >Original Message ----- From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:06 AM >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? > > >>ok..I think this was a fun distraction, but I am not getting it. An object >>spins in one direction or another. That does not depend on the left or right >>dominance of the brain. This is like saying to stare at your record player (I >>know..dating myself!) and asking which way it turns. I watched the dancer >>turn counter clockwise, clockwise and the counter again. There is a slight >>hitch in her turn when she changes direction.....as I said, a fun >>distraction, >>but I think there is a randomization routine in the animation that makes it >>change direction..... >> >>Or am I being Left Brained???? >> >> >> >>Jeff Ursillo From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Sun Oct 21 11:58:29 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Sun Oct 21 11:58:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] October Reflections In-Reply-To: <000601c81411$24a546b0$ff44294b@LarryRush> References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> <000601c81411$24a546b0$ff44294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <4714A86D000FC54A@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) See? A rockhound who is a poet! (well, actually an adaptor of poetry) Thanks, Larry. At 08:35 AM 10/21/2007, you wrote: >With my deepest apologies to Robert Frost............ > > >Stopping By The Quarry On a Sunny Sunday > > >Whose quarry this is I think I know. > >His house is in the village though; > >He will not mind me digging below, > >For I am lusting for his minerals so. > > >The village Cop must think it queer > >For me to dig with a Private sign so near > >Between the highway and the condos clear > >On this the nicest Sunday of the year. > > >He gives me a lecture after a shake, > >And tells me I have made a mistake, > >I should have spent the day at the lake, > >And gives me the paper summons to take. > > >The quarry is lovely, with crystals so big. > >But the judge orders me to report to the brig, > >And I have months to go before I can dig. > >And months to go before I can dig. > > > >Larry Rush > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From dawnmfredricks at msn.com Sun Oct 21 12:32:53 2007 From: dawnmfredricks at msn.com (Dawn M. Fredricks) Date: Sun Oct 21 12:32:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Peru meteorite Message-ID: They have finally decided that is was a meteorite. http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/10/19/421776.aspx Dawn Fredricks Portland Oregon --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Sun Oct 21 14:16:38 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Sun Oct 21 14:16:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Ad- Blue/green Apophyllite In-Reply-To: <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi><4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <384B1BFA-6EE2-4061-AA24-14223CC8858F@heidelberg.edu> I cannot comment on the reasons for the color, but I can say with some confidence that these are not twins. Bow-tie growths usually result from rapid growth or growth in a "dirty" environment, which leads to spreading distortions of the crystal lattice. With further growth, the distorted crystal divides into a number of nearly- parallel crystals which collectively produce the bow-tie shape. This is not twinning, but a variant of (only approximately) parallel growth. Twinned crystals should have predictable geometric relationships between each individual in the twin (e.g. they are at right angles to each other, with one prism face of each lying in the same plane). Often, the shape of the crystal is distorted when compared to untwinned crystals, because growth is faster in certain directions as a direct result of the twinning. Think of staurolite twins as one example where the distortion is minimal but the geometric relationship is evident (there are two different types of these twins), or twins of spinel or galena or quartz, where considerable distortion of form is the norm. Pete Richards On Oct 20, 2007, at 3:32 PM, Lawrence Rush wrote: > I recently got a dozen pieces of an unusual blue-green variety of > Apophyllite. Although these are from Jalgoan, India, they do not > look at all like the usual blocky form of Apophyllite from there. > These are different in color, and are arranged in a parallel habit, > with the prism being elongated and frequently twinned. Apparently > they never occur as single crystals.The matrix (Natrolite) is > mamillary and stalagmatitic. My Indian friend who sends me > minerals from there says that these are occasionally found there > and prized by the miners for their color and gem-like appearance. > > I would appreciate any any comment on these odd crystals from any > mineralogists in the group (and also anyone interested in buying > any, of course!). > > Larry > www.ConnRoxMinerals.com > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ___________________________________ R. Peter Richards rpr@heidelberg.edu Morphological crystallographer --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rpr at heidelberg.edu Sun Oct 21 14:25:59 2007 From: rpr at heidelberg.edu (R. Peter Richards) Date: Sun Oct 21 14:26:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cleveland Micromineral Symposium In-Reply-To: <384B1BFA-6EE2-4061-AA24-14223CC8858F@heidelberg.edu> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi><4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> <384B1BFA-6EE2-4061-AA24-14223CC8858F@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <6A6B243C-A1BE-4D3C-948D-C9C9B172961F@heidelberg.edu> The Micromineral Society of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History will hold its 24th annual Micromineral Symposium from November 2 (evening) through November 4 at the Museum. Quintin and Willow Wight are the featured speakers. In addition there will be several short talks by Society members and other friends of micromounts. While I realize that Lanny and Don and Kitty and Axel are not likely to come, I encourage those of you who live within reach of Cleveland to consider coming to this event! Some housing is available with Society members, the "freebies" table is well stocked, and Saturday evening is a pot luck that is always rich with food and fun. If you would like to come, please contact Dick Green at jgreen2@neo.rr.com for more details. Hope to see some of you there! Pete Richards From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sun Oct 21 14:31:54 2007 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 21 14:31:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? Message-ID: I got that it was an optical illusion...really..but I think the program changes her direction randomly. I did as you suggested and watched the shadows of her feet and she did change direction, but there were varied times between her direction change...I could stare for a minute or more and nothing would happen, then I could stare for a few seconds and it would change....It's cool, however it works, but it is in the programing! Jeff ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rhill24 at cox.net Sun Oct 21 16:27:47 2007 From: rhill24 at cox.net (Rik Hill" Here's a report from one meteorite dealer that went down there. His whole story is pretty harrowing. -Rik ----- Original Message ----- > Da : Michael Farmer > A : cynapse@charter.net, Meteorite Mailing List > > Oggetto : Re: [meteorite-list] Titicaca meteorite-- > phinally, photos > Data : Tue, 2 Oct 2007 11:48:57 -0700 (PDT) > > > > It is a real meteorite, the black is not fusion > crust, > > > but rather exposed shock veins. Very interesting > > > meteorite, and not much will be found. FORGET > about > > > getting crater material, it has been more than two > > > weeks in horrible water that people are urinating > in > > > for fun! The meteorite is very fragile, very > porous, > > > and will be rotted out already. > > > I spoke with the landowner, who was our driver for > > > days, and he told me that no more than 20-30 kilos > was > > > found and most was taken by tourists and locals. > We > > > managed to get some pieces in town from people who > had > > > picked them up, and we all found pieces ourselves > with > > > metal detectors. I found a metal nodule more than > 1 > > > cm, weighing 6 grams. Very interesting. > > > I think it is an H5. > > > Michael Farmer > > > Any labs or scientists on this list who want > samples, > > > email me, I will gladly provide. > > > Mike From donhalterman at verizon.net Sun Oct 21 16:34:34 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Sun Oct 21 16:33:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Cleveland Micromineral Symposium In-Reply-To: <6A6B243C-A1BE-4D3C-948D-C9C9B172961F@heidelberg.edu> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi><4719760A.3259@Tomaszewski.net> <001801c8133d$b59c95d0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <000801c81350$07c2fdb0$9744294b@LarryRush> <384B1BFA-6EE2-4061-AA24-14223CC8858F@heidelberg.edu> <6A6B243C-A1BE-4D3C-948D-C9C9B172961F@heidelberg.edu> Message-ID: <471BE20A.20303@verizon.net> R. Peter Richards wrote: > The Micromineral Society of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History > will hold its 24th annual Micromineral Symposium from November 2 > (evening) through November 4 Well I would go if I had the time and money. Micromounter gatherings are always the best! Free minerals, nice people, rare minerals, microscopes... Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Oct 21 16:41:21 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Oct 21 16:38:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] October Reflections References: <200710210101.l9L10hdT015910@bubbleator.drizzle.com><002a01c813b2$4d2d9b00$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <000e01c813e8$7ed1fad0$ff44294b@LarryRush> <000601c81411$24a546b0$ff44294b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <471BE2E2.7980@Tomaszewski.net> Well done Larry! Lawrence Rush wrote: > > With my deepest apologies to Robert Frost............ > > Stopping By The Quarry On a Sunny Sunday > > > > Whose quarry this is I think I know. > > His house is in the village though; > > He will not mind me digging below, > > For I am lusting for his minerals so. > > > > The village Cop must think it queer > > For me to dig with a Private sign so near > > Between the highway and the condos clear > > On this the nicest Sunday of the year. > > > > He gives me a lecture after a shake, > > And tells me I have made a mistake, > > I should have spent the day at the lake, > > And gives me the paper summons to take. > > > > The quarry is lovely, with crystals so big. > > But the judge orders me to report to the brig, > > And I have months to go before I can dig. > > And months to go before I can dig. > > Larry Rush > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From ajs at frii.com Sun Oct 21 17:28:58 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Sun Oct 21 17:29:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: <4714A86D000FC1F4@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> Message-ID: <20071022002858.973511CC35@io.frii.com> > ...when you find a particular kind of rock (or mushroom or shell) and > all of a sudden you start discovering more of them as if they leap out > at you. And conversely, after a few hours afoot collecting some particular type of rock, your pouch is full and heavy, your subconscious is starting to talk back that maybe it's getting late and you should go now, maybe you already found enough stuff for the day, don't be greedy... Suddenly you pretty much stop seeing any more of whatever you were hunting. Does this happen to other people too, or is it just me? :-) Alan Silverstein From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Oct 21 18:58:28 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Oct 21 18:55:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: Message-ID: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net> Jeff, If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one direction. http://www.alchemysite.com/blog/2007/10/left-right-brain-dancing-girl.html Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional figure http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. Kreigh P.S., this has been a fun diversion. I think we have all learned something new from the discussion, including why the second specimen at a given location is so easy to find (I assume that is on topic). I think the tally is about 2/3 right brained first, and about 80% both brained. My thanks to all who have responded, on and off list. BNMJEFF@aol.com wrote: > > I got that it was an optical illusion...really..but I think the program > changes her direction randomly. I did as you suggested and watched the shadows of > her feet and she did change direction, but there were varied times between > her direction change...I could stare for a minute or more and nothing would > happen, then I could stare for a few seconds and it would change....It's cool, > however it works, but it is in the programing! > > Jeff > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From geenet at centurytel.net Sun Oct 21 22:01:32 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Sun Oct 21 22:01:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page on my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base figure is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch between clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on them. What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. Anybody else? Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > Jeff, > > If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one > direction. > > Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back > and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional > figure > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 > > Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. > > BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and > change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. > > Kreigh > From codeburner at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 05:35:54 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Oct 22 05:36:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net> <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: Top one is CW and the bottom is CCW for me, no switching seen. BK On 10/22/07, Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page > on > my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html > where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base > figure > is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that > the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm > especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch > between > clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and > watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on > them. > What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. > Anybody else? > > Jeanette > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Oct 22 06:06:22 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Oct 22 06:06:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net><000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <001f01c814ac$587f0930$6401a8c0@AxelHP> At first they seemed to rotate randomly and different each time I looked. Then I noticed that after blinking both eyes rapidly for a second ore two the top one rotates clockwise and the bottom one CCW. I tried this a few time and it looks as if this trick works consistently. Not sure that what I see is really how it is but blinking always is followed by CW respectively CCW rotation. Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens J Bryan Kramer > Verzonden: maandag 22 oktober 2007 13:36 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? > > Top one is CW and the bottom is CCW for me, no switching seen. > > BK > > On 10/22/07, Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > > > For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this > > page on my website, > > http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html > > where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. > The base > > figure is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there > are visual > > cues that the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's > > spinning. I'm especially interested in what happens to > those people > > who can switch between clockwise and counter-clockwise mode > freely. > > Keep one dancer hidden and watch one, then the other. Then try to > > switch the direction of spin on them. > > What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. > > Anybody else? > > > > Jeanette > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Mon Oct 22 07:27:41 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Mon Oct 22 07:33:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <021101c814b7$b5234f60$6b01a8c0@okapi> Thanks, Jim... That makes sense. I knew it was going to be something in the bonding, but being WAY removed from my old chem days (and my UofMn chem major son was somewhere else!) I couldn't quite nail it. And to all... Thanks for the kind words on the piece. I'm getting another set of responses over on the "glass" groups I belong to. It's fascinating seeing how two different groups are looking at this. Mind you, the glass folks aren't just blathering on about aesthetics! There is a LOT of discussion about the physics of what is going on in terms of glass/mica bonding and physical distortion during the slump process. There are folks over there that are doing $10,000 - $20,000 commissions. When they put $5,000 of glass into a kiln they HAVE to know what's going on! I'm going to put a fairly good sized sheet, probably around 4-5cm, between some glass and then try to do what's called a "drop slump". That's where I'll lay the glass over a whole in a mold and let the middle "drop" down around 4-5cm. I'll be interested to see what both the glass and mica do. Will the mica stretch? Will it solidify and then blow up in a day or two due to accumulated stress? GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Jim Murowchick > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:08 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectorsgbrown@catspaw-minerals.com, > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures > > Gary- > Mica is a hydrous mineral, and contains OH groups, and > often some water in the interlayer sites. Heating can cause > the water to separate the structural layers (heating > vermiculite, causing it to expand, is an extreme example of > this). The expansion probably disrupts the ionic bonds > between the interlayer potassium ions and oxygens in the > > Best regards, > Jim Murowchick From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 08:01:45 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Mon Oct 22 08:01:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left? In-Reply-To: <518063.86370.qm@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <518063.86370.qm@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My dad was left-handed and often called ambidextrous. He said it meant equally bad with both hands! LOL! Glenn That's fairly common- most left-handed people, like myself, are ambidextrous. It's because we live in a right-handed world. Many things, like scissors, are made to be used with the right hand, so we grow up using both hands, and therefore can use both hands. Right-handed people, on the other hand (Pun unintentional) generally use only their right hand most of the time, so they don't have the strength or dexterity in their left. Jim Daly What about us poor souls that are right & left handed? I write and eat with my left hand, but everything else, baseball, lead off foot etc. is right? Dawn Fredricks _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Mon Oct 22 09:48:22 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 22 09:48:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: <471A9259.4CB3@Tomaszewski.net> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> <471A9259.4CB3@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <8C9E2E27DB1E406-8C8-BB1@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> Gary, & list, Thanks for keeping us posted about your continuing experiments to fuse (trying for a bit of a pun here) mica with glassworking technology & artistry. Kreigh's comment about fluor-mica does raise a good suggestion that you might try following up on some time.? Yes, fluor-micas are much more thermally stable, and as far as I know, the one that is produced & used commercially is synthetic fluorphlogopite.? I've seen it in large, clear sheets, though I have no idea offhand where one might?obtain it; but any commercially available synthetic mica is, I'm pretty sure, going to be fluorphlogopite, so this is something you might look into in the future. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Kreigh Tomaszewski To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures A little Google searching found some abstracts that talked about dehydroxylation occurring in Mica at 1400 C with subsequent formation of AlO4 and AlO5. Another talked about loss of bonding preference when heating Mica above 1200 C. I also found a patent that talked about using synthetic fluoromica instead of mica in electrical insulation to get around the loss of structural integrity when natural mica is heated above 1000C. Gary Brown wrote: > > Question on the mica... I've found that I've really got to heat the mica up > to around 1400F (and then cool it, duh!) before I use it in my work. When > "raw" the mica is very stiff. After the heat there's a color change from > silvery to golden, and the sheets are very, very flexible...almost like > cloth. I'm guessing there's some sort of molecular bonding change going on. > Anyone know? > > GcB > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockcurrier at cs.com Mon Oct 22 11:15:27 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Mon Oct 22 11:17:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite from India References: <200710220100.l9M10af7003799@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Years ago Dr. George Rossman at Cal Tech determined that the green color of apophyllite from a specimen from the quarries at Pashan, near Pune (Poona) was colored by vanadium. I would suspect that this is the element responsible for the color in Larry's specimens from "Jalgaon", but someone would have to do the work on them to confirm that. Also most likely, these apophyllite crystals are fluorapophyllite crystals. Some years ago, John White of the Smithsonian did an analysis of a number of apophyllite crystals from various localities. Of the specimens he studied, only the apophyllites that were hydroxyapophyllite were the ones from Khandivili sp? (the runners know it as Malad). The other Indian apophyllite crystals were all fluorapophyllite. The basalts at Malad are mostly pillow basalts, at least those that I saw and because of this (marine environment?) we suspect that this may be what caused the apophyllites there to be hydroxyapophyllite rather than fluorapophyllites. The habits of various apophyllite crystals from various quarries in the Deccan traps seems to remain consistent for any particular locality. I always thought this was interesting because in many quarries, the contents of the various pockets could change so much even for pockets that were only a few inches away from each other. One pocket could have pink stilbite and a foot away could be another with white apophyllite or mostly white drusy quartz. All the apophyllite crystals in the various pockets however would have more or less the same habit. The similarities could also be somewhat regional. The Pune area almost never produces pink stilbite. I have often wondered why a locality would produce almost wafer thin apophyllite crystals with almost no prism face and others produce rather prismatic pointed ones, or like those from one Russian locality with secondary prism faces that make them look almost round in cross section. Rock From lavenderfish at cox.net Mon Oct 22 13:36:54 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Mon Oct 22 13:37:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net><000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> <001f01c814ac$587f0930$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <004101c814eb$48b1a190$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> The dancer in the first image that Kreigh sent us to was solid black so you can manipulate the rotation of that one. I just told my brain to perceive the raised leg either pass in front of or behind the other leg to change the direction. Could even see her do half turns left-right-left-right by concentrating really hard (without husband or cats talking to me long enough!) With the addition of the white lines on each of these other 2 figures sent by Jeanette, I found it impossible to get my brain to "see" the image go the opposite direction. Those lines appear to force you (well, me anyway) to see only one direction of rotation. Carol in a very soggy New Orleans today From jayhawkmn at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 14:33:18 2007 From: jayhawkmn at yahoo.com (June Young) Date: Mon Oct 22 14:33:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement Message-ID: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a piece of jasper that appears to have concrete/cement on it. I have picked off a great deal of the concrete but it still has a white colored coating. Will muratic acid take off this final layer? If so, should it go in at 100%? How long should it stay in? Will it need to be scrubbed with a steel brush? Does muratic acid loose its effectiveness if it has been around for many years? Thanks for your help. June __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From codeburner at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 15:49:10 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Mon Oct 22 15:49:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite from India In-Reply-To: <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> References: <200710220100.l9M10af7003799@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: Darn, now you made me want one of those. It just seems that it would be cool to have a crystal from the Deccan Traps. BK On 10/22/07, Rock Currier wrote: > > Years ago Dr. George Rossman at Cal Tech determined that the green color > of > apophyllite from a specimen from the quarries at Pashan, near Pune (Poona) > was colored by vanadium. I would suspect that this is the element > responsible for the color in Larry's specimens from "Jalgaon", but someone > would have to do the work on them to confirm that. Also most likely, these > apophyllite crystals are fluorapophyllite crystals. Some years ago, John > White of the Smithsonian did an analysis of a number of apophyllite > crystals > from various localities. Of the specimens he studied, only the > apophyllites > that were hydroxyapophyllite were the ones from Khandivili sp? (the > runners > know it as Malad). The other Indian apophyllite crystals were all > fluorapophyllite. The basalts at Malad are mostly pillow basalts, at least > those that I saw and because of this (marine environment?) we suspect that > this may be what caused the apophyllites there to be hydroxyapophyllite > rather than fluorapophyllites. > > > > The habits of various apophyllite crystals from various quarries in the > Deccan traps seems to remain consistent for any particular locality. I > always thought this was interesting because in many quarries, the contents > of the various pockets could change so much even for pockets that were > only > a few inches away from each other. One pocket could have pink stilbite and > a > foot away could be another with white apophyllite or mostly white drusy > quartz. All the apophyllite crystals in the various pockets however would > have more or less the same habit. The similarities could also be somewhat > regional. The Pune area almost never produces pink stilbite. I have often > wondered why a locality would produce almost wafer thin apophyllite > crystals > with almost no prism face and others produce rather prismatic pointed > ones, > or like those from one Russian locality with secondary prism faces that > make > them look almost round in cross section. > > > > Rock > > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 16:06:00 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Mon Oct 22 16:06:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Crystals anyone? In-Reply-To: <2DAD321945DDC2C19FA995FE0FE798F5@response.bcast1.imaginova.com> References: <2DAD321945DDC2C19FA995FE0FE798F5@response.bcast1.imaginova.com> Message-ID: Crystals anyone? http://www.livescience.com/imageoftheday/siod_071022.html Interesting. Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Mon Oct 22 16:24:31 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Mon Oct 22 16:24:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite from India References: <200710220100.l9M10af7003799@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: <000c01c81502$b9536f70$7347294b@LarryRush> Rock: In a new message from my Indian friend, he states that these specimens are from a village near Arendol in Jalgaon Dist. In Maharashtra, and are recent. The Pashan and the Khandavali mines closed in 1989 and 2002, respectively, so they definitely did not come from there. He tells me that Indian dealers still like to put those two localities as their specimen origin in order to get a premium price for them. This fellow has been very honest and forthright with me in many dealings, and he says that he has never seen this aquamarine color before, and believes it to be a new occurrence. >From what limited exposure I have had of pillow basalts and their mineralization, I would agree with you that this is a distinct possibility for origin. If anyone wants a chip of one of these for analysis, let me know. It may be an opportunity to scientifically document this. I am already thinking of a new species name, something like LawrenceRockKreighRichardsite :') Many thanks to you, Rock, and to Pete, Kreigh, and Kitty for allowing this conversation to continue with your excellent comments! Larry Rush ================================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rock Currier" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:15 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Blue green apophyllite from India > Years ago Dr. George Rossman at Cal Tech determined that the green color > of apophyllite from a specimen from the quarries at Pashan, near Pune > (Poona) was colored by vanadium. I would suspect that this is the element > responsible for the color in Larry's specimens from "Jalgaon", but someone > would have to do the work on them to confirm that. Also most likely, these > apophyllite crystals are fluorapophyllite crystals. Some years ago, John > White of the Smithsonian did an analysis of a number of apophyllite > crystals from various localities. Of the specimens he studied, only the > apophyllites that were hydroxyapophyllite were the ones from Khandivili > sp? (the runners know it as Malad). The other Indian apophyllite crystals > were all fluorapophyllite. The basalts at Malad are mostly pillow basalts, > at least those that I saw and because of this (marine environment?) we > suspect that this may be what caused the apophyllites there to be > hydroxyapophyllite rather than fluorapophyllites. > > > > The habits of various apophyllite crystals from various quarries in the > Deccan traps seems to remain consistent for any particular locality. I > always thought this was interesting because in many quarries, the contents > of the various pockets could change so much even for pockets that were > only a few inches away from each other. One pocket could have pink > stilbite and a foot away could be another with white apophyllite or mostly > white drusy quartz. All the apophyllite crystals in the various pockets > however would have more or less the same habit. The similarities could > also be somewhat regional. The Pune area almost never produces pink > stilbite. I have often wondered why a locality would produce almost wafer > thin apophyllite crystals with almost no prism face and others produce > rather prismatic pointed ones, or like those from one Russian locality > with secondary prism faces that make them look almost round in cross > section. > > > > Rock > > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From bobl at peaktopeak.com Mon Oct 22 17:47:24 2007 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Mon Oct 22 17:46:48 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? In-Reply-To: <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <200710230046.l9N0kjMt020388@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Jeanette, Did you purposefully make the second (bottom) image a mirror of the first? The foot shadows are going in the opposite directions. What's the point in doing that. That skews the test. Regards, Bob -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanette Wimpee Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:02 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page on my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base figure is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch between clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on them. What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. Anybody else? Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > Jeff, > > If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one > direction. > > Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back > and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional > figure > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 > > Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. > > BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and > change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. > > Kreigh > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From geenet at centurytel.net Mon Oct 22 19:15:47 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Mon Oct 22 19:16:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net><000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A><001f01c814ac$587f0930$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <004101c814eb$48b1a190$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <006801c8151a$a0ce0b50$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> >From a very soggy South Alabama also... I could play with the first one too...now my eyes see too much info to fool my brain... I thought that would happen when I got the idea to add the visual cues for the eyes so the brain would settle on one direction according to the lines. Just curious to see if everyone else would do that too. Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Carter-Wientjes" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? > The dancer in the first image that Kreigh sent us to was solid black so > you can manipulate the rotation of that one. I just told my brain to > perceive the raised leg either pass in front of or behind the other leg to > change the direction. Could even see her do half turns > left-right-left-right by concentrating really hard (without husband or > cats talking to me long enough!) > > With the addition of the white lines on each of these other 2 figures sent > by Jeanette, I found it impossible to get my brain to "see" the image go > the opposite direction. Those lines appear to force you (well, me anyway) > to see only one direction of rotation. > > Carol in a very soggy New Orleans today > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Oct 22 19:30:10 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Oct 22 19:31:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Crystals anyone? References: <2DAD321945DDC2C19FA995FE0FE798F5@response.bcast1.imaginova.com> Message-ID: <005c01c8151c$aa370820$0200a8c0@Notebook> Thanks for the link Glenn. I also enjoyed the article on using human urine as fertilizer. We live off grid, use an outhouse, have a large garden and I hate to waste a good resource. Anyone thinking EEW! should read the article. John Santa, ID From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Mon Oct 22 20:02:16 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Mon Oct 22 20:02:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c81521$1e11db90$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> It should remove the concrete residue quite easily. I'd use a small amount in a gallon of water. Don't get too close to see if it is working! You'll hear it fizz. The fumes are quite potent even in small amounts. Make sure it is an open, airy space. Leave it in overnight. Soak it in fresh water for a while afterwards just to be safe. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "June Young" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement >I have a piece of jasper that appears to have concrete/cement on it. I >have picked off a great deal of the concrete but it still has a white >colored coating. Will muratic acid take off this final layer? If so, >should it go in at 100%? How long should it stay in? Will it need to be >scrubbed with a steel brush? Does muratic acid loose its effectiveness if >it has been around for many years? > Thanks for your help. > June > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From folmstead at rcn.com Mon Oct 22 20:33:45 2007 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Mon Oct 22 20:34:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] David New In-Reply-To: References: <200710220100.l9M10af7003799@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: <471D6B99.9070309@rcn.com> Hello I am trying to reach David New - micro diamonds and.... The email I had was from 2002 and it does not "work" Anyone know of an email for him? Thank you GeorgiaO From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Oct 22 21:23:08 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Oct 22 21:16:15 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net> <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <471D7577.499E@Tomaszewski.net> Jeanette, Top figure is CW. Bottom figure starts CCW, but I can still reverse it most of the time at will. Both figures can be turned into going back and forth by blinking rapidly. I'm interested in hearing what you changed in the images. Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page on > my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html > where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base figure > is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that > the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm > especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch between > clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and > watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on them. > What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. > Anybody else? > > Jeanette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > Jeff, > > > > If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one > > direction. > > > > Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back > > and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional > > figure > > > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 > > > > Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. > > > > BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and > > change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. > > > > Kreigh > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Oct 22 21:37:38 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Oct 22 21:30:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net> <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <471D78DB.EB0@Tomaszewski.net> Jeanette, After watching both figures (alternately) a little longer, I can also make them both go back and forth at will without blinking (but it is harder with the top figure). Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page on > my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html > where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base figure > is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that > the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm > especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch between > clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and > watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on them. > What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. > Anybody else? > > Jeanette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > Jeff, > > > > If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one > > direction. > > > > Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back > > and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional > > figure > > > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 > > > > Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. > > > > BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and > > change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. > > > > Kreigh > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Mon Oct 22 21:33:07 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Mon Oct 22 21:30:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] David New References: <200710220100.l9M10af7003799@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <471D6B99.9070309@rcn.com> Message-ID: <000701c8152d$cfa9ea30$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> I believe Tony Nikischer of Excalibur Minerals, Peekskill, NY purchased all of David New's diamond inventory. He may know David's e-mail address. Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Olmstead" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:33 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] David New > Hello > > I am trying to reach > David New - micro diamonds and.... > > The email I had was from 2002 and it does not "work" > > Anyone know of an email for him? > Thank you > > GeorgiaO > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Mon Oct 22 21:40:18 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Mon Oct 22 21:37:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question Message-ID: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> To the List: Has anyone any information about Plumbo-Orthoclase from the Pinnacles Mine, Broken Hill, NSW, Australia? Carolyn Reynard --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Oct 22 21:51:17 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Oct 22 21:44:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <471C02F2.79B5@Tomaszewski.net> <000601c81468$9e06cfe0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <471D7C0D.121D@Tomaszewski.net> Jeanette, After watching both figures a little longer I can also make them both switch direction when the outstretched leg is towards or away from me (instead of to one side), but it is harder for the bottom figure. Both figures have to be viewed going back and forth (instead of rotating) before this occurs. I'm really curious as to what you changed. Kreigh Jeanette Wimpee wrote: > > For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page on > my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html > where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base figure > is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that > the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm > especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch between > clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and > watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on them. > What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. > Anybody else? > > Jeanette > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > > Jeff, > > > > If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one > > direction. > > > > Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back > > and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional > > figure > > > > http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 > > > > Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. > > > > BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and > > change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. > > > > Kreigh > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Oct 22 22:00:07 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Oct 22 21:58:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> Carolyn Reynard wrote: > To the List: Has anyone any information about Plumbo-Orthoclase > from the Pinnacles Mine, Broken Hill, NSW, Australia? Funny you should mention that... I just analyzed some. What do you want to know about it? FYI, the precise term is "plumbian orthoclase." There were a few articles written about it. Solubility and behavior of lead in green orthoclase (amazonite) from Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia. Murakami, Hideki; Takashima, Isao; Nishida, Norimasa; Shimoda, Susumu; Matsubara, Satoshi. Research Institute of Materials and Resources, Faculty of Engineering and Resource Science, Akita University, Akita, Japan. Ganko (2000), 95(3), 71-84. Green lead-containing orthoclase. Cech, F.; Misar, Z.; Povondra, P. Fac. Sci., Charles Univ., Prague, Czech. Tschermaks Mineralogische und Petrographische Mitteilungen (1971), 15(3), 213-31. From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Mon Oct 22 22:39:33 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Mon Oct 22 22:37:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> Thank you Don, I purchased a specimen of plumbian - orthoclase at our Gem & Mineral Show from Alfredo Petrov. I would not have identified this mineral as a feldspar. The color is like a light green fluorite from the Wise Mine in New Hampshire and a lighter green than the fluorites coming out of China. It is very vitreous , gemmy in some areas and does not exhibit the feldspar cleavage. The specimen also has many small near perfect pink garnets identified as spessertine. I do see several bits of galena. It also has mica which is a copper brown. I always check feldspars for fluorescence, most are a deep red. Under short wave ultra-violet light this one is an intense light blue-white, like some feldspars I have from Maine and Pakistan. No long wave response or phosphorescence. Thank you for the references. Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: "DonH" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question > Carolyn Reynard wrote: > > > To the List: Has anyone any information about Plumbo-Orthoclase > > from the Pinnacles Mine, Broken Hill, NSW, Australia? > > > Funny you should mention that... I just analyzed some. What do you want > to know about it? FYI, the precise term is "plumbian orthoclase." > There were a few articles written about it. > > > Solubility and behavior of lead in green orthoclase (amazonite) from > Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia. Murakami, Hideki; Takashima, > Isao; Nishida, Norimasa; Shimoda, Susumu; Matsubara, Satoshi. Research > Institute of Materials and Resources, Faculty of Engineering and > Resource Science, Akita University, Akita, Japan. Ganko (2000), > 95(3), 71-84. > > Green lead-containing orthoclase. Cech, F.; Misar, Z.; Povondra, P. > Fac. Sci., Charles Univ., Prague, Czech. Tschermaks > Mineralogische und Petrographische Mitteilungen > (1971), 15(3), 213-31. > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Mon Oct 22 23:11:09 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Mon Oct 22 23:11:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) This isn't really off topic since planets and most other stuff in space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since geology is a tiny subset of astronomy." (He says he expects responses especially from Kreigh and Axel on that!) The following site has a picture featured in the November issue of Sky & Telescope. It shows the silhouette of the International Space Station against the sun, and there's a detailed description of how the photo was taken. http://www.astropix.com/HTML/SHOW_DIG/055.HTM The following site has some more astronomy pics. http://www.astropix.com/ Aloha, Kitty From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Oct 22 23:35:52 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Mon Oct 22 23:34:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> Carolyn Reynard wrote: > I always check feldspars for fluorescence, most are a deep red. Under short > wave ultra-violet light this one is an intense light blue-white, like some > feldspars I have from Maine and Pakistan. No long wave response or > phosphorescence. Sounds about right. I can't imagine what activates that color. It does have cleavage if you break it into small pieces. It is usually intergrown with other minerals like quartz and it was not easy to get a clean probe point. The powder x-ray pattern for the one piece I analyzed showed it to be right on the border between sandine and orthoclase. Best, Don From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Tue Oct 23 01:29:45 2007 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Tue Oct 23 01:30:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002201c81521$1e11db90$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <000e01c8154e$ed18ff90$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> A sugestion: Phosphoric acid is used to clean sewage pipes of cement residues. Try it, with care. It is toxic! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement > It should remove the concrete residue quite easily. I'd use a small amount > in a gallon of water. Don't get too close to see if it is working! You'll > hear it fizz. The fumes are quite potent even in small amounts. Make sure > it is an open, airy space. Leave it in overnight. Soak it in fresh water > for a while afterwards just to be safe. > > Alan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "June Young" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:33 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement > > >>I have a piece of jasper that appears to have concrete/cement on it. I >>have picked off a great deal of the concrete but it still has a white >>colored coating. Will muratic acid take off this final layer? If so, >>should it go in at 100%? How long should it stay in? Will it need to be >>scrubbed with a steel brush? Does muratic acid loose its effectiveness if >>it has been around for many years? >> Thanks for your help. >> June >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Oct 23 01:40:27 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Oct 23 01:40:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <000f01c81550$5cd94910$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi Kitty & Bill > This isn't really off topic since planets and most other > stuff in space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since > geology is a tiny subset of astronomy." (He says he expects > responses especially from Kreigh and Axel on that!) Yes, he would, wouldn't he? ;-))) Can't let Bill Down so here goes: I'm into fluorescent minerals, a small subset of mineralogy which is a subset of mineralogy which definitely is a subset of geology which obeys the laws of physics that govern astronomy which is a subset of cosmology which, in turn, is a small paragraph in the Bible. The photo is absolutely stunning... I see that a lot of hobby-astronomers are using Canon digital cameras... Maybe I need to go there too? Cheers Axel From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 05:47:51 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Oct 23 05:47:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid In-Reply-To: <000e01c8154e$ed18ff90$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <002201c81521$1e11db90$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000e01c8154e$ed18ff90$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: It may be slightly corrosive in the concentrated form, but it isn't toxic. And as mineral acids go, it isn't especially strong with a PKa of +2, Citric acid has a PKa of +3 but a strong acid like Hydrochloric has a PKa of -4. So it is slightly stronger than Citric but 6 orders of magnitude weaker than HCl. The lower the PKa, which is logarithmic, the stronger the acid. If you look on many soft drink labels you'll see phosphoric acid is an ingredient, approved by the US FDA for human consumption. BK On 10/23/07, Armando Afonso wrote: > > A sugestion: Phosphoric acid is used to clean sewage pipes of cement > residues. > Try it, with care. It is toxic! > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jaszczak at mtu.edu Tue Oct 23 07:55:05 2007 From: jaszczak at mtu.edu (John Jaszczak) Date: Tue Oct 23 07:56:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] David New In-Reply-To: <471D6B99.9070309@rcn.com> References: <200710220100.l9M10af7003799@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <004a01c814d7$86b0b170$6401a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <471D6B99.9070309@rcn.com> Message-ID: <471E0B49.2010800@mtu.edu> I think David has retired. His diamond stock is now in the hands of Tony Nikischer www.diamondcrystals.net Frederick Olmstead wrote: > Hello > > I am trying to reach > David New - micro diamonds and.... > > The email I had was from 2002 and it does not "work" > > Anyone know of an email for him? > Thank you > > GeorgiaO From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Oct 23 08:14:16 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Oct 23 08:14:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid In-Reply-To: References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com><002201c81521$1e11db90$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000e01c8154e$ed18ff90$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <001c01c81587$61090b10$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Household (kitchen) cleaning gels often have 1% or so phosphoric acid in them. Great for cleaning pyrite and even calcite. Brings great luster to shiny specimens. Don't let the calcite soak too long though! ;-))) Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens J Bryan Kramer > Verzonden: dinsdag 23 oktober 2007 13:48 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid > > It may be slightly corrosive in the concentrated form, but it > isn't toxic. > And as mineral acids go, it isn't especially strong with a > PKa of +2, Citric acid has a PKa of +3 but a strong acid like > Hydrochloric has a PKa of -4. So it is slightly stronger than > Citric but 6 orders of magnitude weaker than HCl. The lower > the PKa, which is logarithmic, the stronger the acid. > > If you look on many soft drink labels you'll see phosphoric > acid is an ingredient, approved by the US FDA for human consumption. > > BK > > On 10/23/07, Armando Afonso wrote: > > > > A sugestion: Phosphoric acid is used to clean sewage pipes > of cement > > residues. > > Try it, with care. It is toxic! > > > > > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From armandoafonso at oniduo.pt Tue Oct 23 08:34:46 2007 From: armandoafonso at oniduo.pt (Armando Afonso) Date: Tue Oct 23 08:34:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com><002201c81521$1e11db90$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose><000e01c8154e$ed18ff90$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> <001c01c81587$61090b10$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <001101c8158a$3e335200$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Coca-Cola has it in the composition, too! I said it is toxic, right? :) Anyway, it could work, and I would like to know the result. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Axel Emmermann" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid > Household (kitchen) cleaning gels often have 1% or so phosphoric acid in > them. > Great for cleaning pyrite and even calcite. > Brings great luster to shiny specimens. > Don't let the calcite soak too long though! ;-))) > > Axel > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens J Bryan Kramer >> Verzonden: dinsdag 23 oktober 2007 13:48 >> Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >> collectors >> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid >> >> It may be slightly corrosive in the concentrated form, but it >> isn't toxic. >> And as mineral acids go, it isn't especially strong with a >> PKa of +2, Citric acid has a PKa of +3 but a strong acid like >> Hydrochloric has a PKa of -4. So it is slightly stronger than >> Citric but 6 orders of magnitude weaker than HCl. The lower >> the PKa, which is logarithmic, the stronger the acid. >> >> If you look on many soft drink labels you'll see phosphoric >> acid is an ingredient, approved by the US FDA for human consumption. >> >> BK >> >> On 10/23/07, Armando Afonso wrote: >> > >> > A sugestion: Phosphoric acid is used to clean sewage pipes >> of cement >> > residues. >> > Try it, with care. It is toxic! >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html >> > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From hilmarandheidi at telus.net Tue Oct 23 09:10:33 2007 From: hilmarandheidi at telus.net (Hilmar Krocke) Date: Tue Oct 23 09:11:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Southern California Locations In-Reply-To: <200710052126.l95LQe5x003884@comcast-smtp-02.tampflrdc.rr.com> References: <200710052126.l95LQe5x003884@comcast-smtp-02.tampflrdc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6DC8B21F-ED9E-48F4-949A-EA4C1B6466B2@telus.net> ________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________ On 2007-Oct-05, at 1426, Jim Nance wrote: > I will be in southern California in November for site seeing and rock > collecting. > Can anyone give me current information on thefollowing sites: > Owlhead Mountains smoky quartz > Big Pine smoky quartz > Lone Pine amazonite & beryl > Opal Mountain > > Thanks > Jim Nance ________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________ I have just returned from a trip to S California. To the annual Gem-o- rama on Searles Lake. What a hoot ! Checked the Big Pine location. Nothing. It has been plundered. It is obvious that at some time there were lots and big crystals but they are all gone now. You would have to dig inside that hill of granite to find more. At Lone Pine I was able to dig out some very nice Amazonite crystals from a narrow cleft filled with muck. Will be difficult to get out more. According to information from a local there is more Amazonite inside granite boulders on Haystack rock and the saddle behind it. Also found a few little beryl crystals. There are probably more and better but I did not have much time to spend. Watch out for the rattle snakes ! Hilmar --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 09:48:38 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 09:48:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> Don, Carolyn, The Broken Hill Pb-bearing orthoclase is well known for its fluorescence, yes, bluish-white, I've seen it on a specimen I have.? I don't know that anyone knows for sure about the cause, but I've always assumed that it is due to the lead ions. And here's a question for you Don, re. your first reply.? What do they know about the oxidation state of the lead in the orthoclase, and is it most correct to refer to it as "plumbian" or "plumboan"? Pete -----Original Message----- From: DonH To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:35 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question Carolyn Reynard wrote:? ? > I always check feldspars for fluorescence, most are a deep red. Under short? > wave ultra-violet light this one is an intense light blue-white, like some? > feldspars I have from Maine and Pakistan. No long wave response or? > phosphorescence.? ? Sounds about right. I can't imagine what activates that color. It does have cleavage if you break it into small pieces. It is usually intergrown with other minerals like quartz and it was not easy to get a clean probe point.? ? The powder x-ray pattern for the one piece I analyzed showed it to be right on the border between sandine and orthoclase.? ? Best,? Don? ? -- _______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 10:12:15 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Oct 23 10:18:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question In-Reply-To: <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > The Broken Hill Pb-bearing orthoclase is well known for its fluorescence I'm not sure how well-known it is; I could originally find little on it. I suppose my definition of "well known" is whether you can find a number of specimens for sale via fl. mineral dealers, and whether the collectors I know have either heard of it or have one in their collection. Admittedly that is a very biased definition. I am preparing a small article for an Australian publication on this; it might be known but deserves to be refreshed. I got one mediocre and one really nice photo of two different fluorescences from two different localities in the district. > What do they know about the oxidation state of the lead in the orthoclase, and is it most correct to refer to it as "plumbian" or "plumboan"? Here is info from one of the abstracts, I believe provided by one of our list members a few months ago. Note that I heartily disapprove of calling it amazonite, since that is a separate variety with a distinct legacy of meaning, and to call this BH NSW material amazonite will only cause confusion and anguish. As far as plumbian or plumboan, I must scramble to dig out the IMA guidelines on adjectival modifiers to see if these are used for distinction or whether "plumbian" covers all general cases of lead-rich minerals. I can never remember the slight distinctions in the wording and I'm glad that terms like ferric and ferrous, cupric and cuprous, have been superceded by terms like "Fe (II)" and "Fe (III)" and "diavelent" and "trivalent", etc. "Solubility and behavior of lead in green orthoclase (amazonite) from Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia. Murakami, Hideki; Takashima, Isao; Nishida, Norimasa; Shimoda, Susumu; Matsubara, Satoshi. Research Institute of Materials and Resources, Faculty of Engineering and Resource Science, Akita University, Akita, Japan. Ganko (2000), 95(3), 71-84. The soly. and behavior of lead in feldspar are elucidated by EPMA and XPS (also known as ESCA) analyses for green orthoclase (amazonite) from Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia. The role in the crystal structure establishes Pb cation as PbAl2Si2O8 end member for the orthoclase solid soln., and the max. quantity of PbAl2Si2O8 is 3.8 mol% in the green orthoclase. The lead cations, except the one existing in the orthoclase lattice, namely structurally bound Pb, occur in the green orthoclase by the following two ways; 1) as galena inclusions, and 2) as unidentified Pb-bearing micro-inclusions. The chem. shift for Pb atom in the green orthoclase was investigated by XPS, and compared with those in a Pb-metal, Pb-oxides, and a galena. Differences in the binding energy between Pb in the green orthoclase and other Pb-substances show distinctly that most of the Pb is not present as impurities like micro-minerals, but as structural components in green orthoclase. Crystal chem. consideration of Pb affords us infallible discrimination of soly. of PbAl2Si2O8 end member rather than PbAlSi3O8. The existence of PbAl2Si2O8 as the main end member in green orthoclase exhibits the charge-coupled substitution in the extra framework and the tetrahedral site; K++Si4+ .tautm. Pb2++Al3+. Inhomogeneous distribution of Pb cation within the single crystal shows that the condition of Pb cation in green orthoclase structure is unstable." From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 11:20:53 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 11:21:16 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Question - lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase In-Reply-To: <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Hi Don, Thanks for that good reply & the excerpts from the abstract about that.? Don't know how many other folks in the listserv are interested in the details, but I'll continue!? And at least this time I finally remembered to change the topic title to reflect the subject. There was an Australian publication from way back I think in the 70s that I believe had a photo showing the fluorescence of the Broken Hill orthoclase; I'm sure I have a copy somewhere in my files and if I find it, I'll send the publication reference (and I'll scan & can send you a copy of the page with the image too). I tried to look up the chemical modifier terminology, but the IMA article linked from the MSA website, does not show this--unless maybe it was in a table, that is not included in the article that's posted online?? The article, 1998 by Nickel & Grice, is at http://minsocam.org/MSA/IMA/ima98(01).pdf But, though I see that all the references to Broken Hill orthoclase that I find online seem to uniformly call it plumbian orthoclase, "plumbian" should refer to the higher oxidation state, presumably Pb+3, and "plumboan" should mean the lower oxidation state, Pb+2, which is what I would expect to be present in the feldspar.? And the formula quoted in the abstract you attached gives the endmember for lead-bearing orthoclase as Pb2Al2Si2O8, which would correspond to Pb+2, analogous to the formula for anorthite, containing Ca+2 .? So I'm not sure about which term is appropriate for the Broken Hill feldspar, but it would seem it should rather be "plumboan".? That's why I wrote to you & asked, I figured you might already know for certain!? I see that the abstract by Murakami et al carefully avoids those terms and just says "lead", probably to avoid confusion of ambiguous adjectives. If I learn more, I'll write & share it.? And I agree that "amazonite" is not the best term for this feldspar. Cheers, Pete -----Original Message----- From: DonH To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Question pmodreski@aol.com wrote:? ? ? > The Broken Hill Pb-bearing orthoclase is well known for its fluorescence? ? I'm not sure how well-known it is; I could originally find little on it. ? I suppose my definition of "well known" is whether you can find a number of specimens for sale via fl. mineral dealers, and whether the collectors I know have either heard of it or have one in their collection. Admittedly that is a very biased definition.? I am preparing a small article for an Australian publication on this; it might be known but deserves to be refreshed. I got one mediocre and one really nice photo of two different fluorescences from two different localities in the district.? ? > What do they know about the oxidation state of the lead in the orthoclase, and is it most correct to refer to it as "plumbian" or "plumboan"?? ? Here is info from one of the abstracts, I believe provided by one of our list members a few months ago. Note that I heartily disapprove of calling it amazonite, since that is a separate variety with a distinct legacy of meaning, and to call this BH NSW material amazonite will only cause confusion and anguish. As far as plumbian or plumboan, I must scramble to dig out the IMA guidelines on adjectival modifiers to see if these are used for distinction or whether "plumbian" covers all general cases of lead-rich minerals. I can never remember the slight distinctions in the wording and I'm glad that terms like ferric and ferrous, cupric and cuprous, have been superceded by terms like "Fe (II)" and "Fe (III)" and "diavelent" and "trivalent", etc.? ? "Solubility and behavior of lead in green orthoclase (amazonite) from Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia. Murakami, Hideki; Takashima, Isao; Nishida, Norimasa; Shimoda, Susumu; Matsubara, Satoshi. Research Institute of Materials and Resources, Faculty of Engineering and Resource Science, Akita University, Akita, Japan. Ganko (2000), 95(3), 71-84.? ? The soly. and behavior of lead in feldspar are elucidated by EPMA and XPS (also known as ESCA) analyses for green orthoclase (amazonite) from Broken Hill, New South Wales, Australia. The role in the crystal structure establishes Pb cation as PbAl2Si2O8 end member for the orthoclase solid soln., and the max. quantity of PbAl2Si2O8 is 3.8 mol% in the green orthoclase. The lead cations, except the one existing in the orthoclase lattice, namely structurally bound Pb, occur in the green orthoclase by the following two ways;? ? ? 1) as galena inclusions, and? ? 2) as unidentified Pb-bearing micro-inclusions.? ? The chem. shift for Pb atom in the green orthoclase was investigated by XPS, and compared with those in a Pb-metal, Pb-oxides, and a galena. Differences in the binding energy between Pb in the green orthoclase and other Pb-substances show distinctly that most of the Pb is not present as impurities like micro-minerals, but as structural components in green orthoclase. Crystal chem. consideration of Pb affords us infallible discrimination of soly. of PbAl2Si2O8 end member rather than PbAlSi3O8. ?The existence of PbAl2Si2O8 as the main end member in green orthoclase exhibits the charge-coupled substitution in the extra framework and the? tetrahedral site; K++Si4+ .tautm. Pb2++Al3+. Inhomogeneous distribution of Pb cation within the single crystal shows that the condition of Pb cation in green orthoclase structure is unstable."? ? ? -- _______________________________________________? Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List? Subscription Services:? http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds? List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy:? http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 11:32:25 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 11:32:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase In-Reply-To: <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Don, & all who care, The IMA paper giving a table of chemical adjective modifiers is a 1987 Can. Min. paper by Nickel and Mandarino, linked from the MSA website as http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM72/AM72_1031.pdf and in it, table 1, p. 1035, gives (I can't get this text to quite copy properly out of the pdf file, and the lettering is tiny and?I have to hand-edit the superscripts) Pb2+ ?plumboan; Pb4+ plumbian so it really sounds like we should properly be calling this "plumboan orthoclase", not plumbian. Pete ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 11:39:31 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 11:39:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> (P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) -----Original Message----- From: pmodreski@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase Don, & all who care, The IMA paper giving a table of chemical adjective modifiers is a 1987 Can. Min. paper by Nickel and Mandarino, linked from the MSA website as http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM72/AM72_1031.pdf and in it, table 1, p. 1035, gives (I can't get this text to quite copy properly out of the pdf file, and the lettering is tiny and?I have to hand-edit the superscripts) Pb2+ ?plumboan; Pb4+ plumbian so it really sounds like we should properly be calling this "plumboan orthoclase", not plumbian. Pete ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Tue Oct 23 12:15:20 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Tue Oct 23 12:15:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] ??? inserted by AOL / was lead bearing...... References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com><8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000c01c815a9$0eee3e50$ebfef604@TheBlackAdder> Pete, I eschewed the email software of my email provider since i was already familiar with Outlook Express which is what I use. No doubt you could ditch AOL's email package and use Outlook or Outlook Express whilst still using AOL as a service provider. Erich ----- Original Message ----- From: pmodreski@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) (P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) -----Original Message----- From: pmodreski@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase Don, & all who care, The IMA paper giving a table of chemical adjective modifiers is a 1987 Can. Min. paper by Nickel and Mandarino, linked from the MSA website as http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM72/AM72_1031.pdf and in it, table 1, p. 1035, gives (I can't get this text to quite copy properly out of the pdf file, and the lettering is tiny and?I have to hand-edit the superscripts) Pb2+ ?plumboan; Pb4+ plumbian so it really sounds like we should properly be calling this "plumboan orthoclase", not plumbian. Pete --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From efkern at earthlink.net Tue Oct 23 12:25:10 2007 From: efkern at earthlink.net (Erich Kern) Date: Tue Oct 23 12:25:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com><002201c81521$1e11db90$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <000e01c8154e$ed18ff90$62b0fea9@TOSHIBA> Message-ID: <001a01c815aa$6ecb4ce0$ebfef604@TheBlackAdder> No, it's not toxic, it's mildly corrosive. Big difference. BTW, one of the digestive fluids our stomach makes is HCL (hydrochloric acid) to render some of the minerals in vegetables soluble. People with chronic bulemia eventually lose their teeth because the HCL they throw up dissolves the enamel coating on teeth. Corrosive is not necessarily toxic (i.e. a poison). Erich Kern Murrieta, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: Armando Afonso To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:29 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement - phosphoric acid A sugestion: Phosphoric acid is used to clean sewage pipes of cement residues. Try it, with care. It is toxic! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Goldstein" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement > It should remove the concrete residue quite easily. I'd use a small amount > in a gallon of water. Don't get too close to see if it is working! You'll > hear it fizz. The fumes are quite potent even in small amounts. Make sure > it is an open, airy space. Leave it in overnight. Soak it in fresh water > for a while afterwards just to be safe. > > Alan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "June Young" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:33 PM > Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement > > >>I have a piece of jasper that appears to have concrete/cement on it. I >>have picked off a great deal of the concrete but it still has a white >>colored coating. Will muratic acid take off this final layer? If so, >>should it go in at 100%? How long should it stay in? Will it need to be >>scrubbed with a steel brush? Does muratic acid loose its effectiveness if >>it has been around for many years? >> Thanks for your help. >> June >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Tue Oct 23 12:27:14 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Oct 23 12:27:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (was) lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <471E42D600001F2F@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) You are not alone in the magical appearance of the mystery question mark. I've seen it in other people's email and even occasionally on the Web in---for example---captions for pictures. It seems that it appears after or during sending or posting, so there's no way you can catch it in proofreading. <.  > is another mystery appearance too. Aloha, Kitty At 08:39 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote: >(P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I >am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding >those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason >that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question >mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) From bilmcc1948 at msn.com Tue Oct 23 12:30:30 2007 From: bilmcc1948 at msn.com (Bill McCullough) Date: Tue Oct 23 12:31:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (was) lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <471E42D600001F2F@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net><000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D9648.7030406@verizon.net><8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com><471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net><8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com><8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com><8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <471E42D600001F2F@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: The question mark means an email program along the way did not understand a symbol. The nbsp is a non-breaking space, which Microsoft programs throw around like confetti at Mardi Gras. HTH - Bill McC. -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kitty & Bill Heacox Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 3:27 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (was) lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) You are not alone in the magical appearance of the mystery question mark. I've seen it in other people's email and even occasionally on the Web in---for example---captions for pictures. It seems that it appears after or during sending or posting, so there's no way you can catch it in proofreading. <.  > is another mystery appearance too. Aloha, Kitty At 08:39 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote: >(P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I >am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding >those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason >that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question >mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:37:54 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Oct 23 12:38:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase In-Reply-To: <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Geez why don't they just do what chemists do, call it lead (II) orthoclase. Perfectly transparent and obvious. BK On 10/23/07, pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > Don, & all who care, > > The IMA paper giving a table of chemical adjective modifiers is a 1987 > Can. Min. paper by Nickel and Mandarino, linked from the MSA website as > http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM72/AM72_1031.pdf > > and in it, table 1, p. 1035, gives (I can't get this text to quite copy > properly out of the pdf file, and the lettering is tiny and?I have to > hand-edit the superscripts) > > > Pb2+ ?plumboan; Pb4+ plumbian > > so it really sounds like we should properly be calling this "plumboan > orthoclase", not plumbian. > > Pete > > > > > ______________________________ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 23 15:29:39 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 23 15:20:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi><4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (addedbypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> <00bc01c8132e$0cd88940$6b01a8c0@okapi> <471A9259.4CB3@Tomaszewski.net> <8C9E2E27DB1E406-8C8-BB1@WEBMAIL-DC18.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <471E7384.6F23@Tomaszewski.net> The synthetic mica is made by Dow. pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > Gary, & list, > > Thanks for keeping us posted about your continuing experiments to fuse (trying for a bit of a pun here) mica with glassworking technology & artistry. > > Kreigh's comment about fluor-mica does raise a good suggestion that you might try following up on some time.? Yes, fluor-micas are much more thermally stable, and as far as I know, the one that is produced & used commercially is synthetic fluorphlogopite.? I've seen it in large, clear sheets, though I have no idea offhand where one might?obtain it; but any commercially available synthetic mica is, I'm pretty sure, going to be fluorphlogopite, so this is something you might look into in the futur > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 5:45 pm > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures > > A little Google searching found some abstracts that talked about > dehydroxylation occurring in Mica at 1400 C with subsequent formation of > AlO4 and AlO5. Another talked about loss of bonding preference when > heating Mica above 1200 C. I also found a patent that talked about using > synthetic fluoromica instead of mica in electrical insulation to get > around the loss of structural integrity when natural mica is heated > above 1000C. > > Gary Brown wrote: > > > > Question on the mica... I've found that I've really got to heat the mica up > > to around 1400F (and then cool it, duh!) before I use it in my work. When > > "raw" the mica is very stiff. After the heat there's a color change from > > silvery to golden, and the sheets are very, very flexible...almost like > > cloth. I'm guessing there's some sort of molecular bonding change going on. > > Anyone know? > > > > GcB > > From smtravis at plateautel.net Tue Oct 23 17:15:31 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Tue Oct 23 17:15:52 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Canadian River TX References: Message-ID: <019601c815d2$fe535a10$039e5a40@marilyn> Does anyone know of locations that the Canadian River plume agate came from? above W. or below E. of Lake Meridan? I know about alibates but not Canadian River Plume. Thanks Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn M. Fredricks" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:19 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left? --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 17:48:26 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Oct 23 17:47:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <471E965A.8080809@verizon.net> J Bryan Kramer wrote: > Geez why don't they just do what chemists do, call it lead (II) orthoclase. > Perfectly transparent and obvious. I agree, though the nomenclature for minerals has been set up to distinguish between whether it is a species where lead is a primary cation, or whether it is simply a lead-rich variety of an existing species that doesn't warrant its own unique name, etc. I think we're stuck with those conventions for a while unless the mineral community agrees to a wholesale revision of the nomenclature, which would no doubt be accompanied by years of fretting, debate, fussing, and pontification, after which a number of people would deplore the final decision anyway. best, Don From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 23 18:17:25 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 23 18:08:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> Hi Kitty & Bill, Everything that humans use in their activities is either grown or mined (some processing assummed). Rockhounding is concerned with what is mined. Most tools that astronomers use come from what is mined, so Astronomy is a subset of Rockhounding. Rockhounds and Geologists use photons to identify minerals. Astronomers mine photons from distant locations as they do their remote geology studies. As Miners, all Astronomers are obviously a tiny subset of Rockhounds. And since plants do their own mining and form the basis of the food chain, all our agriculture activities are also a subset of Rockhounding. All human activy is derived from Rockhounding. That was a Way Cool! rockhounding picture. Kreigh Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > This isn't really off topic since planets and most other stuff in > space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since geology is a tiny > subset of astronomy." (He says he expects responses especially from > Kreigh and Axel on that!) > > The following site has a picture featured in the November issue of > Sky & Telescope. It shows the silhouette of the International Space > Station against the sun, and there's a detailed description of how > the photo was taken. > > http://www.astropix.com/HTML/SHOW_DIG/055.HTM > > The following site has some more astronomy pics. > http://www.astropix.com/ > > Aloha, Kitty > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 23 18:57:36 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 23 18:47:26 2007 Subject: OT: ? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.)} References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <471EA426.1319@Tomaszewski.net> Pete, Send the pox upon Microsoft. They use industry non-standard characters in their fonts. When you cut and paste text from one font into another font, many of the nonstandard characters don't get properly translated by most software. Opening and closing quote marks that lean towards the quoted text (instead of a single upright quote mark) are the most common example you will see (even on websites), but I can't remember which leaning quote makes a question mark. Anyway, AOL follows Internet Standards, instead of Microsoft Standards, in their software, hence the unexpected characters. Kreigh pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > (P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) > > -----Original Message----- > From: pmodreski@aol.com > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 12:32 pm > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase > > Don, & all who care, > > The IMA paper giving a table of chemical adjective modifiers is a 1987 Can. Min. > paper by Nickel and Mandarino, linked from the MSA website as > http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM72/AM72_1031.pdf > > and in it, table 1, p. 1035, gives (I can't get this text to quite copy properly > out of the pdf file, and the lettering is tiny and?I have to hand-edit the > superscripts) > > Pb2+ ?plumboan; Pb4+ plumbian From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 18:48:19 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 18:48:24 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers Message-ID: Those are all very good thoughts, Kreigh! and by the way--Kitty & Bill, thanks for that link to the space station against the solar disk (I'd have said silouhetted except I can't spell that word), it was quite neat, and I shared that with a few other people. and Kreigh, BTW to you, I am always impressed with all the multitudinous things you know... such as, what company produces the synethic mica (Dow). But back to the things you both just said, you've got to watch out about how broadly you philosophically draw these boundaries connecting and encompassing all things mineral, astronomical, agricultural and even human, as per your lines, And since plants do their own mining and form the basis of the food chain, all our agriculture activities are also a subset of Rockhounding. because I understand that there is a considerable movement afoot (and this could beccome a separate discussion topic here on Rockhounds) among mineralogists to eliminate what some believe is an arbitrary distinction between "inorganically" and "biologically" formed crystalline substances on and in the earth, and to just consider them all "minerals", regardless of their mode of origin. This is an outgrowth of the study of and increasing recognition of the significance of "biominerals", mineral substances that form either within living organisms, or extrernally through their metabolic processes or byproducts. These scientists argue that, say, calcium carbonate precipated as calcite or aragonite in the shell or other parts of a living organism or on and around its surfaces have a perfect right to be considered minerals; and in many cases, the "minerals" deposited from seawater, or on the walls of caves, on the surfaces of rocks and sediment grains and in many other environments, would not form as they do if algae or bacteria or coral or whatever were not present. Our classic definition of "mineral" says "formed by inorganic processes", but they argue that often we do not really know what the exact processes are that form minerals in many of these environments, and what role organisms play. And that if we stuck to our strict definition of "inorganic processes", then we would have to consider a lot of our limestones, etc., as not really rocks or minerals, but biological waste products. So they would like to just throw out that whole part of the definition of a mineral, period, and say that anything crystalline that occurs in nature is a mineral, regardless of whether it is inorganic, organic, or somewhere in between. I'm told that at least one current mineralogy text advocates this usage. I've had a number of discussions/arguments about this with at least one geological colleague, with me trying to uphold the traditional "inorganic" part of the definition, but I fear that someday this may turn into a losing battle, as more and more is learned about minerals that form on these borderlines, and the borderlines turn out to encroach on more and more of our traditional places where minerals grow, we think, "inorganically". Anyone have any further comments on this? cheers, Pete Modreski ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 18:51:33 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 18:51:43 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Canadian River TX Message-ID: I don't know anything much about the agate but I recall that the Canadian River actually has its headwaters in northeast New Mexico, and I've always wondered what the heck the Canadian River is doing down there anyway! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 23 19:03:05 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 23 18:52:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (was) lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <471E42D600001F2F@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <471EA56E.1F5C@Tomaszewski.net>   is a 'non-breaking space' that prevents a space character from wrapping when the text is formatted. It is used to connect two words with what appears to be a normal space so that they always appear together on the same line. Kreigh Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > You are not alone in the magical appearance of the mystery question > mark. I've seen it in other people's email and even occasionally on > the Web in---for example---captions for pictures. It seems that it > appears after or during sending or posting, so there's no way you can > catch it in proofreading. <.  > is another mystery appearance too. > > Aloha, Kitty > > At 08:39 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote: > >(P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I > >am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding > >those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason > >that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question > >mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 23 19:13:53 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 23 19:03:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Canadian River TX References: <019601c815d2$fe535a10$039e5a40@marilyn> Message-ID: <471EA7F4.B31@Tomaszewski.net> Steve & Marilyn wrote: > > Does anyone know of locations that the Canadian River plume agate came from? > above W. or below E. of Lake Meridan? I know about alibates but not > Canadian River Plume. Thanks Steve > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dawn M. Fredricks" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:19 AM > Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left? > Roger Pabian's outstanding agate website says see Lapidary Journal v43 no8, p115, and v45, no5, p150. From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 23 19:23:35 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 23 19:13:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <471EAA39.D7A@Tomaszewski.net> Oops, I forgot to thank the tiny subset of Rockhounds that are Astronomers for their interesting studies of minerals during their early formative years. Sorry, Kreigh Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: > > Hi Kitty & Bill, > > Everything that humans use in their activities is either grown or mined > (some processing assummed). Rockhounding is concerned with what is > mined. Most tools that astronomers use come from what is mined, so > Astronomy is a subset of Rockhounding. > > Rockhounds and Geologists use photons to identify minerals. Astronomers > mine photons from distant locations as they do their remote geology > studies. As Miners, all Astronomers are obviously a tiny subset of > Rockhounds. > > And since plants do their own mining and form the basis of the food > chain, all our agriculture activities are also a subset of Rockhounding. > > All human activy is derived from Rockhounding. > > That was a Way Cool! rockhounding picture. > > Kreigh > > Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > > > This isn't really off topic since planets and most other stuff in > > space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since geology is a tiny > > subset of astronomy." (He says he expects responses especially from > > Kreigh and Axel on that!) > > > > The following site has a picture featured in the November issue of > > Sky & Telescope. It shows the silhouette of the International Space > > Station against the sun, and there's a detailed description of how > > the photo was taken. > > > > http://www.astropix.com/HTML/SHOW_DIG/055.HTM > > > > The following site has some more astronomy pics. > > http://www.astropix.com/ > > > > Aloha, Kitty > > From donhalterman at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 19:38:13 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Tue Oct 23 19:36:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <471EB015.3050003@verizon.net> > I've had a number of > discussions/arguments about this with at least one geological colleague, with me > trying to uphold the traditional "inorganic" part of the definition, but I > fear that someday this may turn into a losing battle, as more and more is > learned about minerals that form on these borderlines, and the borderlines turn out > to encroach on more and more of our traditional places where minerals grow, > we think, "inorganically". > > Anyone have any further comments on this? Hi, I have much pontification to offer, but I will try to be brief. There are now at least two books that advocate a broader definition, and I will show you the new one at GSA. Nomenclature is a result of humanity's imperfect attempts to draw borders around things that are not clearly delineated in nature. There are already a number of minerals of biogenic origin, such as newberyite, and probably whewellite. But where do we draw the line, and why draw the line? You already made the relevant arguments, so I won't repeat them. Our dept. includes a geomicrobiologist. She is trying to determine the nature of a siliceous concretion found at the rim of an arsenic-contaminated hot spring in Oregon. Three or four of us have gathered around and contributed our knowledge; for example, I showed how to use UV light to look for uranyl polyanion content, and suggested doing x-ray powder diffraction on the three distinct zones in the piece to look for crystalline order. She is looking at the geochemistry of the water and the microbes in it. It takes all of us to solve the problem. Traditional mineralogy is only one of the contributions. Mineralogy is considered a mature science. Now, what do we do with it? How do we apply that knowledge? As I search for PhD programs, I find very few opportunities in America for true research in mineralogy, and I am discovering that a few folks with whom I wanted to study just retired or are preparing to retire. However it is easy to find programs in environmental science and geochemistry. Washington State University recently stripped down the geology department and now all the venerable geologists must bear the minor indignity of being in the "School of Earth and Environmental Sciences." At least UI still has a Geology Department, though the College of Mines has been disassembled and the department is now a part of the broader College of Science. Geology in general, in the traditional sense, is suffering a downturn, so there is currently little hope of preserving the discipline of mineralogy as a capital science in itself. When the other students ask what I'm doing, I tell them, "I am becoming the last real mineralogist." However, given that, I know that I will need to *apply* that speciality in new and creative ways in order to have a paycheck. Look at it this way: mineralogy has evolved beyond analyzing and describing minerals and is recognized as an important part of industry, human health, law & public policy, and forensics, to name a few. Our lab is filled with samples from cleanup sites, with goat and baboon lungs, with concrete and water pipes filled with mineral deposits. At GSA you will find all sorts of posters and presentations on the applications of mineralogy to many fields. Rather than bemoan the expanding definition of mineralogy to include biogenics, we should celebrate the recognition and the increased opportunities to show the world what we're worth! best regards, Don From folmstead at rcn.com Tue Oct 23 19:59:44 2007 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Tue Oct 23 19:59:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> Hello all you helpful "guys" and "gals" kraokinite I searched for kraokinite and found nada. Something about showflace - center of... Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? From a rockhound who asked me... "...no rocks on the glacer -- but just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." Thankzzz GeorgiaO --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From smtravis at plateautel.net Tue Oct 23 20:11:22 2007 From: smtravis at plateautel.net (Steve & Marilyn) Date: Tue Oct 23 20:11:34 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Canadian River TX References: <019601c815d2$fe535a10$039e5a40@marilyn> <471EA7F4.B31@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <041c01c815eb$8f0338b0$039e5a40@marilyn> I'll check it out but I thaink those are adds by David Goodnow he sold it and still does if you want some already collected. Thanks Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Canadian River TX > Steve & Marilyn wrote: >> >> Does anyone know of locations that the Canadian River plume agate came >> from? >> above W. or below E. of Lake Meridan? I know about alibates but not >> Canadian River Plume. Thanks Steve >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dawn M. Fredricks" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:19 AM >> Subject: [Rockhounds] RE: Right or Left? >> > > > Roger Pabian's outstanding agate website says see Lapidary Journal v43 > no8, p115, and v45, no5, p150. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 23 20:37:42 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 23 20:37:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" Message-ID: ________ (pardon me, what the heck IS your name, is it Georgia or is it (Fred Olmstead?)), for once in the history of _rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com_ (mailto:rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com) here, I surely have not the least clue what the HECK you or this person is talking about! None of that means ANYTHING to me. Maybe it's in some secret code language. : ) Pete In a message dated 10/23/2007 9:00:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, folmstead@rcn.com writes: Hello all you helpful "guys" and "gals" kraokinite I searched for kraokinite and found nada. Something about showflace - center of... Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? >From a rockhound who asked me... "...no rocks on the glacer -- but just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." Thankzzz GeorgiaO ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From t.kloprogge at qut.edu.au Tue Oct 23 20:48:37 2007 From: t.kloprogge at qut.edu.au (Theo Kloprogge) Date: Tue Oct 23 20:48:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20071024134726.0296b350@qut.edu.au> Hi Georgia What does it look like, might it be kaolinite? This is normally a white powder with crystals to small to see with the naked eye. Theo At 12:59 PM 24/10/2007, you wrote: Hello all you helpful "guys" and "gals" kraokinite I searched for kraokinite and found nada. Something about showflace - center of... Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? From a rockhound who asked me... {quot}...no rocks on the glacer -- but just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." Thankzzz GeorgiaO --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ {quot}Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself form a world. The struggle itself towards the heights is enough to fill a man`s heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy{quot} (from The myth of Sisyphus, Camus) Dr. J.T. Kloprogge Inorganic Materials Research Group School of Physical and Chemical Sciences Room E508, Gardens Point Campus, Queensland University of Technology CRICOS No: 00213J 2 George Street GPO Box 2434 Brisbane Q4001 Australia tel: +61 7 3138 2184 fax: +61 7 3138 1804 email: t.kloprogge@qut.edu.au (private theoloes@bigpond.net.au) http://src.sci.qut.edu.au/programs/inorganic_materials Adjunct Professor, Dept. Geosciences, Texas Tech University, Lubbock, Texas, U.S. Webmaster Assocation Internationale pour l'Etude d'Argile (International Association for the study of clays) AIPEA website: http://aipea.org Check out my mineralogy website at: http://www.mineralatlas.com For copies of manuscripts Please go to QUT eprint http://eprints.qut.edu.au/view/person/Kloprogge,_Theo.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- text/html (html body -- converted) --- From Ted at crystalgems.com Tue Oct 23 21:33:14 2007 From: Ted at crystalgems.com (Ted Kowalski) Date: Tue Oct 23 21:33:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com><8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <006501c815f6$fdfbe0e0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> I love these exchanges!! I may not remember nor even care about every little point at the time I read one of these intricately detailed Rockhound rock/mineral discussions; but I can usually count on my remembering having read about the topic and roughly where. Which means that when I need to come to grasp with the details, (usually with a hot new rock in my hands or under consideration), I know where to come search for more information. Thanks Don and Pete for a meticulous, deep and thought provoking exchange and many thanks to Carolyn for asking the initial question. Ted Kowalski Fredericksburg, VA USA From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Tue Oct 23 21:56:17 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Tue Oct 23 21:56:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] speaking of mining - DVD recomendation In-Reply-To: <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <471ECB7F000006A1@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Bill and I would like to recommend a DVD that is about a mining town in Britain where the mine is about to be closed, and the effect of that on the people. The title is "Brassed Off", and I should say that many rockhounds may not care for it, because it's very British and it's sometimes hard to understand the local dialect or unfamiliar references; "brassed off" is a British expression that is roughly equivalent to "ticked off" (or it's stronger versions). The movie shows the minors' bitter criticism of the Margaret Thatcher conservative government that shut down a lot of mines, so it has a political side that some may not like. But for those of you who like music, the title also refers to the town's brass band, and there is much beautiful music, not all of it marching band style. There is a wonderful night scene showing the miners with their helmet lights on while playing "Danny Boy". If any of you have liked other British movies, like Raising Ned Devine, Calendar Girls, The Full Monty, Billy Elliot, Saving Grace, The Man Who Went Up a Hill and Came Down a Mountain, Nodding Hill, Four Weddings and a Funeral, may like this. Aloha, Kitty At 03:17 PM 10/23/2007, you wrote: >Hi Kitty & Bill, > >Everything that humans use in their activities is either grown or mined >(some processing assummed). Rockhounding is concerned with what is >mined. Most tools that astronomers use come from what is mined, so >Astronomy is a subset of Rockhounding. > >Rockhounds and Geologists use photons to identify minerals. Astronomers >mine photons from distant locations as they do their remote geology >studies. As Miners, all Astronomers are obviously a tiny subset of >Rockhounds. > >And since plants do their own mining and form the basis of the food >chain, all our agriculture activities are also a subset of Rockhounding. > >All human activy is derived from Rockhounding. > >That was a Way Cool! rockhounding picture. > >Kreigh From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Oct 24 03:32:29 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Oct 24 03:32:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] speaking of mining - DVD recomendation In-Reply-To: <471ECB7F000006A1@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net><471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com><471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471ECB7F000006A1@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <000f01c81629$2e423420$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi Kitty, > If any of you have liked other British movies, like Raising > Ned Devine, Calendar Girls, The Full Monty, Billy Elliot, > Saving Grace, The Man Who Went Up a Hill and Came Down a > Mountain, Nodding Hill, Four Weddings and a Funeral, may like this. And my personal favorite: Educating Rita. Cheers Axel From geenet at centurytel.net Wed Oct 24 03:56:12 2007 From: geenet at centurytel.net (Jeanette Wimpee) Date: Wed Oct 24 03:56:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? References: <200710230046.l9N0kjMt020388@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002101c8162c$8052c7e0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Oops, you are right. That makes it not a valid test. So I redid the second one and redid the page so they are next to each other and you can see the black shape is the same. After both gifs load, you have to refresh the page so they "spin" in synch. http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html Thanks, Jeanette ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Loeffler" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 7:47 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? > Jeanette, > > Did you purposefully make the second (bottom) image a mirror of the first? > The foot shadows are going in the opposite directions. What's the point > in > doing that. That skews the test. > > Regards, > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Jeanette Wimpee > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:02 PM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Right or Left Brained Rockhounds? > > For those still interested and want to do an experiment, go to this page > on > my website, http://www.geenet611.com/geenet611/ladyspinner.html > where I have two modified versions of the spinning dancer. The base > figure > is exactly the same, but with some fine tuning there are visual cues that > the eyes see and then tell the brain which way she's spinning. I'm > especially interested in what happens to those people who can switch > between > > clockwise and counter-clockwise mode freely. Keep one dancer hidden and > watch one, then the other. Then try to switch the direction of spin on > them. > > What I could do easily before is virtually impossible with the cues. > Anybody else? > > Jeanette > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" > > >> Jeff, >> >> If you break the image down you can see that she really does spin one >> direction. >> >> Or more accurately, it is a two dimensional image that is shifting back >> and forth, and your brain perceives it as a spinning three dimensional >> figure >> >> http://www.theness.com/neurologicalblog/index.php?p=27 >> >> Yes, the illusion is in the programming, the programming of your brain. >> >> BTW, I've found that by blinking rapidly I can expose the illusion and >> change her from rotating to shifting back and forth. >> >> Kreigh >> > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jg81638 at aol.com Wed Oct 24 06:02:51 2007 From: jg81638 at aol.com (jg81638@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 24 06:03:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: <000f01c81550$5cd94910$6401a8c0@AxelHP> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <000f01c81550$5cd94910$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <8C9E45551DF627D-C0C-8180@webmail-dd21.sysops.aol.com> I was just abut to make the same response but Axel beat me to it? -? however I challenge his final step to the bible!? Cosmology IS the final stop, and the man to read is R.O. Kapp (Towards a Unified Cosmology?? Basic Books 1960).? Anyone want to discuss this point?? Jim Groves -----Original Message----- From: Axel Emmermann To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 4:40 am Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers Hi Kitty & Bill > This isn't really off topic since planets and most other > stuff in space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since > geology is a tiny subset of astronomy." (He says he expects > responses especially from Kreigh and Axel on that!) Yes, he would, wouldn't he? ;-))) Can't let Bill Down so here goes: I'm into fluorescent minerals, a small subset of mineralogy which is a subset of mineralogy which definitely is a subset of geology which obeys the laws of physics that govern astronomy which is a subset of cosmology which, in turn, is a small paragraph in the Bible. The photo is absolutely stunning... I see that a lot of hobby-astronomers are using Canon digital cameras... Maybe I need to go there too? Cheers Axel -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From libawc at emory.edu Wed Oct 24 06:28:10 2007 From: libawc at emory.edu (Anita D. Westlake) Date: Wed Oct 24 06:28:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures In-Reply-To: <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <002101c7fc56$68aa0b70$fbdc2c4b@LarryRush><000201c7fc5b$aae8de80$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21><012701c7fc5b$f9301590$6b01a8c0@okapi><003b01c7fc5f$2361e7a0$0300a8c0@LaptopLand1><019201c80539$a8c72f80$6b01a8c0@okapi> <4703AFF70000B63C@n016.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <006f01c812b9$5b7dcd00$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <00c401c81641$b8fc58d0$2af50a70$@edu> Hi Gary: I could have told you fusing mica would work! But, if you use too much, it wants to float to the top and you can actually peel some of it away after the fuse! It also causes weak spots in the glass, so use sparingly. Anita -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Gary Brown Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 9:34 PM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: [Rockhounds] Mica Progress Report - Pictures Here's some pictures of a hack job of glass work. This is a fuse just to "see if it works". Here's a full plate: http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica1web.jpg And a close up: http://www.fusedlight.com/images/mica2web.jpg I'll be posting some detailed shots of the mica out of the glass in a day or so when I get back from sunny Duluth. Gary http://www.fusedlight.com http://www.catspaw-minerals.com -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From sauktown1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 06:49:41 2007 From: sauktown1 at yahoo.com (Jim Daly) Date: Wed Oct 24 06:49:49 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Canadian River TX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <315558.42283.qm@web34307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's also a Canadian River in upstate New York. It flows past the Herkimer Diamond localities. Jim Daly Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: I don't know anything much about the agate but I recall that the Canadian River actually has its headwaters in northeast New Mexico, and I've always wondered what the heck the Canadian River is doing down there anyway! ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com Wed Oct 24 07:43:56 2007 From: sunstone3 at hvc.rr.com (Carolyn Reynard) Date: Wed Oct 24 07:41:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <006501c815f6$fdfbe0e0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> Message-ID: <006901c8164c$4e82a710$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> Don, Pete & all, Another question/observation about the lead bearing orthoclase! What is its crystallization, monoclinic or triclinic? If the plumbian orthoclase is crystalizing between sanidine and orthoclase means it is a fairly high temperature feldspar and it probably would be monoclinic. Calling it amazonite then would be definitely incorrect. Amazonite is a microcline feldspar and is triclinic, crystalizing at a lower temperature,the jump must have been the color green. I'm quite happy to have a green orthoclase! Ted, I love these exchanges too, as I have printed out all the information and now chewing on it. I have found eventually you begin to understand the more complicated material and it gives you much to think about. Acually I can't wait to see if there are more responses to the "Question"! Thank you all, New York Feldspar Nut, Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kowalski" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) > I love these exchanges!! > > I may not remember nor even care about every little point at the time I read > one of these intricately detailed Rockhound rock/mineral discussions; but I > can usually count on my remembering having read about the topic and roughly > where. Which means that when I need to come to grasp with the details, > (usually with a hot new rock in my hands or under consideration), I know > where to come search for more information. > > Thanks Don and Pete for a meticulous, deep and thought provoking exchange > and many thanks to Carolyn for asking the initial question. > > Ted Kowalski > Fredericksburg, VA USA > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From albalmer at att.net Wed Oct 24 08:31:20 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Oct 24 08:31:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: <8C9E45551DF627D-C0C-8180@webmail-dd21.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) <000f01c81550$5cd94910$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <8C9E45551DF627D-C0C-8180@webmail-dd21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:51 -0400, jg81638@aol.com wrote: >I was just abut to make the same response but Axel beat me to it? -? however I challenge his final step to the bible!? Cosmology IS the final stop, and the man to read is R.O. Kapp (Towards a Unified Cosmology?? Basic Books 1960).? Anyone want to discuss this point?? Jim Groves > Please, no. For the record, I disagree with Kitty's "This isn't really off topic." It is off-topic. My RV is parked on a gravel driveway. Shall we talk about RVs for a while? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Axel Emmermann >To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' >Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 4:40 am >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers > > > >Hi Kitty & Bill > >> This isn't really off topic since planets and most other >> stuff in space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since >> geology is a tiny subset of astronomy." (He says he expects >> responses especially from Kreigh and Axel on that!) > >Yes, he would, wouldn't he? ;-))) >Can't let Bill Down so here goes: >I'm into fluorescent minerals, a small subset of mineralogy which is a >subset of mineralogy which definitely is a subset of geology which obeys the >laws of physics that govern astronomy which is a subset of cosmology which, >in turn, is a small paragraph in the Bible. > >The photo is absolutely stunning... >I see that a lot of hobby-astronomers are using Canon digital cameras... >Maybe I need to go there too? > -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From albalmer at att.net Wed Oct 24 08:35:26 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Oct 24 08:35:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> Message-ID: <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:59:44 -0400, Frederick Olmstead wrote: >Hello > >all you helpful "guys" and "gals" > >kraokinite > >I searched for kraokinite and found nada. > >Something about showflace - center of... >Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? > > From a rockhound who asked me... "...no rocks on the glacer -- but >just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." > >Thankzzz > >GeorgiaO I suspect that whatever it is, you've spelled it wrong. Ask the rockhound you talked to to elaborate. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From albalmer at att.net Wed Oct 24 08:36:55 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Oct 24 08:37:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] speaking of mining - DVD recomendation In-Reply-To: <471ECB7F000006A1@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471ECB7F000006A1@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:56:17 -1000, Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: >Bill and I would like to recommend a DVD Have you and Bill done any rockhounding lately? -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From ajs at frii.com Wed Oct 24 09:34:26 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Wed Oct 24 09:34:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <20071024163426.1D1FC1CC35@io.frii.com> > That was a Way Cool! rockhounding picture. Indeed. I sent the URL to my favorite astronaut, who launched yesterday on STS-120. I wrote to him more or less, "welcome back, and when you get a chance, if you haven't seen this..." His auto-reply was unexpected, and priceless! Here's the gist. -------------- From: ... Date: 23 Oct 2007 12:03:01 -0500 Subject: Out of Office AutoReply: image of ISS crossing the Sun To: ... Gone flying... and where I'm going I (regrettably) won't have my Blackberry! From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Oct 24 10:16:12 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Oct 24 10:16:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase In-Reply-To: <471E965A.8080809@verizon.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D9648.7030406@verizon.net><8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com><471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net><8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com><8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <471E965A.8080809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003c01c81661$93c529f0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Don and Bryan, Any nomenclature-hiccups date from Mendeleev's time. The element names in his table were taken directly from the alchemistic inheritance. Argentum, hydrargirum, hydrogenum, ferrum, plumbum... All Latin names from centuries ago. Yet, the advantage is that all languages refer to the same Latin names thus making the element names and symbols universal. Small deviations can cause big confusion. For example: coltan stands for the ore of columbium and tantalium...the basis ore for cell phones and other high-tech applications. In Europe we also call it coltan but we say niobium instead of columbium. Plumbojarosite is the same in Dutch, French , German.... If you were to use the element names in different languages we would call it something like loodjarosiet in Dutch, plombejarosite in French, Bleijarosit in German Now everybody can easily communicate. Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens DonH > Verzonden: woensdag 24 oktober 2007 1:48 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase > > J Bryan Kramer wrote: > > > Geez why don't they just do what chemists do, call it lead > (II) orthoclase. > > Perfectly transparent and obvious. > > > I agree, though the nomenclature for minerals has been set up > to distinguish between whether it is a species where lead is > a primary cation, or whether it is simply a lead-rich variety > of an existing species that doesn't warrant its own unique > name, etc. I think we're stuck with those conventions for a > while unless the mineral community agrees to a wholesale > revision of the nomenclature, which would no doubt be > accompanied by years of fretting, debate, fussing, and > pontification, after which a number of people would deplore > the final decision anyway. > > best, > Don > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Wed Oct 24 10:17:19 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Wed Oct 24 10:17:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rocks and Astronomy References: <200710230046.l9N0kjMt020388@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <002101c8162c$8052c7e0$6602a8c0@CMC3101861A> Message-ID: <000e01c81661$bf1f7dd0$d6dd2c4b@LarryRush> Speaking of rocks, astronomy, and even Cosmology (!) here is your chance to buy a famous meteorite.... Bonhams of NYC is going to auction off the missing end of the Willamette Meteorite. This is the 30 pound section that was removed from the larger piece which has been in display in the American Museum since it's discovery in 1902 in Oregon. The smaller piece, at 155 pounds, is expected to bring about $1.3 million, so bring your check book! It would be fascinating to sit in on this auction, which will feature 45 different meteorite lots, including: "the largest known meteorite with naturally occurring gemstones" (I have no idea what this means), the Brenham meteorite, 1400 pounds, which was discovered in a Kansas wheatfield in 2005. ($650,000) "the meteorite which is the frontispiece of the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites" ($18,500) "the Claxton Mailbox, a meteorite which impacted a mailbox" ($75,000) and..."a piece of the meteorite which is the only one known to have killed something; a Venezuelan cow" ($4,000) On second thought, better bring your Credit Card, too! This is to be held on Oct.28, in NYC. www.Bonhams.com or 212-644-9001 Larry Rush From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Wed Oct 24 10:37:01 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Wed Oct 24 10:37:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Rocks and Astronomy In-Reply-To: <000e01c81661$bf1f7dd0$d6dd2c4b@LarryRush> Message-ID: <000101c81664$7cdb32e0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Larry Rush wrote: It would be fascinating to sit in on this auction, which will feature 45 different meteorite lots, including: "the largest known meteorite with naturally occurring gemstones" (I have no idea what this means), the Brenham meteorite, 1400 pounds, which was discovered in a Kansas wheatfield in 2005. ($650,000) ----------------- Brenham is a pallasite and contains numerous large grains of transparent fayalite embedded in nickel-iron. Really impressive, just visually stunning. The anticipated price seems almost low to me, given that small pieces of this meteorite are sometimes sold by the gram. Cheers- Earl Verbeek From jcessna at nist.gov Wed Oct 24 11:26:31 2007 From: jcessna at nist.gov (Jeffrey T. Cessna) Date: Wed Oct 24 11:26:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20071024140714.022af3d0@nist.gov> My guess is that Georgia is trying to write a newsletter summary for a club meeting she could not attend based on notes taken by someone who was not the club secretary. The secretary was running the meeting, but was also the rockhound who mentioned the confusing mineral name (at the meeting). The rockhound was visiting a glacier in or near Banff National Park (in Canada) and wanted to collect some glacier tumbled rocks. The explanation for not finding any was that they were at such a high altitude that the only thing coming out of the glacier was "kraokinite." Which was reported to be a fine dust that serves as the nucleation point in the formation of snowflakes. This suggests that the earlier answer of kaolinite might be the correct name. Searching with that spelling produces much more information. ...or it could be a completely unrelated question. -Jeff Cessna At 11:35 AM 10/24/2007, you wrote: >On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:59:44 -0400, Frederick Olmstead > wrote: > > >Hello > > > >all you helpful "guys" and "gals" > > > >kraokinite > > > >I searched for kraokinite and found nada. > > > >Something about showflace - center of... > >Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? > > > > From a rockhound who asked me... "...no rocks on the glacer -- but > >just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." > > > >Thankzzz > > > >GeorgiaO > >I suspect that whatever it is, you've spelled it wrong. Ask the >rockhound you talked to to elaborate. > >-- >Al Balmer >Sun City, AZ > >-- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Wed Oct 24 12:13:47 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Wed Oct 24 12:13:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers In-Reply-To: <8C9E45551DF627D-C0C-8180@webmail-dd21.sysops.aol.com> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash><471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com>(added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net)<000f01c81550$5cd94910$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <8C9E45551DF627D-C0C-8180@webmail-dd21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <004901c81672$00ef1350$6401a8c0@AxelHP> > I was just abut to make the same response but Axel beat me to > it? -? Grin ;-))) > however I challenge his final step to the bible!? I was joking, tongue-in-cheek with no disrespect intended towards those who feel inclined to stick with the Bible. > Cosmology IS the final stop, and the man to read is R.O. Kapp > (Towards a Unified Cosmology?? Basic Books 1960).? Anyone > want to discuss this point?? Jim Groves Yes, personally I find "The fabric of the cosmos" by Brian Greene (2004) the best I have ever read on the topic. It is cosmology vulgarized to the point where anyone with an IQ above 140 can easily understand it. ;-)))) I do agree that cosmology is the final step but that is only an opinion. We should stay clear of this topic on this list. Should anyone go on a fieldtrip: Halloween is coming up so "Happy rockhaunting"... Cheers Axel > -----Original Message----- > From: Axel Emmermann > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 4:40 am > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers > > > > Hi Kitty & Bill > > > This isn't really off topic since planets and most other stuff in > > space are really large rocks. Bill says, "Since geology is a tiny > > subset of astronomy." (He says he expects responses > especially from > > Kreigh and Axel on that!) > > Yes, he would, wouldn't he? ;-))) > Can't let Bill Down so here goes: > I'm into fluorescent minerals, a small subset of mineralogy > which is a subset of mineralogy which definitely is a subset > of geology which obeys the laws of physics that govern > astronomy which is a subset of cosmology which, in turn, is a > small paragraph in the Bible. > > The photo is absolutely stunning... > I see that a lot of hobby-astronomers are using Canon digital > cameras... > Maybe I need to go there too? > > Cheers > Axel > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ > __________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free > AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From albalmer at att.net Wed Oct 24 13:16:32 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Oct 24 13:16:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20071024140714.022af3d0@nist.gov> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071024140714.022af3d0@nist.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:26:31 -0400, "Jeffrey T. Cessna" wrote: >My guess is that Georgia is trying to write a newsletter summary for >a club meeting she could not attend based on notes taken by someone >who was not the club secretary. The secretary was running the >meeting, but was also the rockhound who mentioned the confusing >mineral name (at the meeting). > >The rockhound was visiting a glacier in or near Banff National Park >(in Canada) and wanted to collect some glacier tumbled rocks. The >explanation for not finding any was that they were at such a high >altitude that the only thing coming out of the glacier was >"kraokinite." Which was reported to be a fine dust that serves as the >nucleation point in the formation of snowflakes. Very good! Your hypothesis seems to fit all the known facts, at least. > >This suggests that the earlier answer of kaolinite might be the >correct name. Searching with that spelling produces much more information. > Yes. I tried answers.com, since they apparently use a soundex algorithm to suggest alternate spellings, but the closest suggestion was "granite." >...or it could be a completely unrelated question. > >-Jeff Cessna > >At 11:35 AM 10/24/2007, you wrote: >>On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:59:44 -0400, Frederick Olmstead >> wrote: >> >> >Hello >> > >> >all you helpful "guys" and "gals" >> > >> >kraokinite >> > >> >I searched for kraokinite and found nada. >> > >> >Something about showflace - center of... >> >Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? >> > >> > From a rockhound who asked me... "...no rocks on the glacer -- but >> >just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." >> > >> >Thankzzz >> > >> >GeorgiaO >> >>I suspect that whatever it is, you've spelled it wrong. Ask the >>rockhound you talked to to elaborate. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From pmodreski at aol.com Wed Oct 24 14:12:51 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 24 14:13:02 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071024140714.022af3d0@nist.gov> Message-ID: <8C9E499C59EE1B1-964-5595@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> I wanted to share this exchange of notes Carol Bova and I had about the "kraokinite"; what I looked up makes me think it probably does refer to kaolinite in snowflakes.? You'll find that the old (1884) article Carol sent the link to, right below, is quite interesting: "Take a look at this... could it be this pumice from Krakatoa that was found in snowflakes? http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%28189401%2932%3A143%3C343%3ADFTKEO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage What you say is quite possible, Carol.? That was a real interesting excerpt from the Krakatoa article, thanks for sending that link. Of course, the big eruption of Krakatoa was in 1883, so only snowflakes from that year or thereabouts would contain such nuclei. But I easily found via google, references to study of dust particle nuclei within snowflakes.? Here's one good scientific article about this, Mineral Dust Aerosols as Ice Forming Nuclei http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/about_us/archives/projects/gccs/2001/student_work/nathan.pdf in which one reads, "...mineral dust particles are often collected from the centers of snowflakes. Kaolinite especially has been identified by electron microscopy with sizes ranging from 0.1 to 4 ?m in snowflake centers (Rogers and Yau, 1989)." ?m in snowflake centers (Rogers and Yau, 1989)." I think this is the kind of thing that the person may have been referring to when they wrote that label for Georgia, and "kraokinite" just ended up that way as a misspelled or misread version of kaolinite. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Al Balmer To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:26:31 -0400, "Jeffrey T. Cessna" wrote: >My guess is that Georgia is trying to write a newsletter summary for >a club meeting she could not attend based on notes taken by someone >who was not the club secretary. The secretary was running the >meeting, but was also the rockhound who mentioned the confusing >mineral name (at the meeting). > >The rockhound was visiting a glacier in or near Banff National Park >(in Canada) and wanted to collect some glacier tumbled rocks. The >explanation for not finding any was that they were at such a high >altitude that the only thing coming out of the glacier was >"kraokinite." Which was reported to be a fine dust that serves as the >nucleation point in the formation of snowflakes. Very good! Your hypothesis seems to fit all the known facts, at least. > >This suggests that the earlier answer of kaolinite might be the >correct name. Searching with that spelling produces much more information. > Yes. I tried answers.com, since they apparently use a soundex algorithm to suggest alternate spellings, but the closest suggestion was "granite." >...or it could be a completely unrelated question. > >-Jeff Cessna > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockcurrier at cs.com Wed Oct 24 14:27:42 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Wed Oct 24 14:25:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] The last real mineralogist References: <200710241915.l9OJEYqW015921@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000701c81684$b6b50570$6901a8c0@rock3> I would hope that there are others out there than Don who are becoming mineralogists, but they are few and far between. He must find it lonely out there. The classical definition of what a mineral is, seems to be firmly entrenched and defended by the current IMA nomenclature committee and there appears to immediate hope that a liberalized definition will emerge anytime soon. The current definition is so narrow that the field of mineralogy is quickly making itself irrelevant, leaving it to others to study and describe bioremediated minerals or those that are too small to fit the classical definition of mineralogy. You can know all about minerals, but you will have to go outside your field if you want to use what you know and get a paycheck. Perhaps Don could become a mineral dealer. That way he could continue to play with real minerals and still get a paycheck, at least some of the time. Rock From pmodreski at aol.com Wed Oct 24 15:23:33 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Wed Oct 24 15:23:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <006901c8164c$4e82a710$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <006501c815f6$fdfbe0e0$0200a8c0@LaptopLand1> <006901c8164c$4e82a710$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> Message-ID: <8C9E4A3A5913D7C-964-5A2B@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Carolyn & the list, Since this material has always been referred to as orthoclase, I'm sure that someone must have determined that it is monoclinic.? Yes, it's probably a misnomer to call it "amazonite", though I suppose that depends a bit on how strictly one defines "amazonite" as only microcline.? For example, I believe "moonstone" can be either orthoclase or sanidine. But I just dug up some nice info about the Broken Hill green orthoclase, what I was looking for that I thought I had somewhere in my past files (Don should be interested).? First, an article by Brian M. England in Australian Gems & Crafts Magazine, Oct/Nov 1977, "Australian Fluorescent Minerals", Part II, pp. 189-193.? Here he says, I'll quote, on p. 191, "Orthoclase: In the primary orebodies of the Broken Hill Mines, a variety of orthoclase feldspar has been found which is generally accepted as being peculiar to Broken Hill, although a similar material has also been found at Kalgoorlie in Western Australia.? The orthoclase is coarsely crystalline and usually has an attractive emerald green color, thought to be due to its high lead content.? It occurs in patches associated with the pegmatitic bodies found in some parts of the orebodies, being particularly plentiful in the North Mine.? The orthoclase is often colorless or white when freshly mined but prolonged exposure to sunlight or ultra-violet turns the mineral bright green.? It shows a bright white fluorescence under short-wave ultra-violet light." My own comment, that's very interesting about the reported color change, I don't remember ever hearing about that (obviously, I forgot that it said this, from when I read this article years ago); amazonite certainly does not do this.? Lead itself is not normally a "chromophore" ion and does not color minerals when it substitutes in them; microcline var. amazonite is blue-green because of a combined effect of lead + water in the crystal lattice + natural radiation exposure. And a second article is "The ultraviolet photoluminescent mineals of Broken Hill", by D.P. Watson, 1970, Records of the Geological Survey of New South Wales, volume 12, part 2, no. 2, pp. 157-162.? This gives almost the same info as Brian England quoted above, so I suspect that England took much of the info and even some of his wording from Watson's earlier report.? It says, p. 159-160, "Orthoclase, KAlSi3O8 (plate 1, figure 2 c,d) In the primary zone of the ore body, particularly in the pegmatitic phases, a variety of orthoclase is found that is generally accepted as being peculiar to Broken Hill.? Crystalline green feldspar is scattered irregularly throughout the coarser grained gangue as either a clear form or as bright green semi-transparent material.? Some pieces of this mineral, which are clear or whitish when mined, often turn green on exposure to prolonged daylight or ultraviolet radiation or, if already green, then the colour is enhanced. This variety of feldspar from Broken Hill usually has a dull grey photoluminescence in shortwave ultraviolet light with an intensity varying from fair to slightly above medium." The text is brief but the article does include two plates of color photographs.? And here, I was quite amazed to find that I could look up, download, and print out the article plus the color plates off the internet!? I only had a black-and-white photocopy of the article, so just on the off chance that it might be posted somewhere online I looked up the title via Google.? This got me to the Geological Survey of New South Wales website, where via their "DIGS" database I was able to search the list of their publications, http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/minerals/geological/publications/records select this particular publication (Records, vol. 12, pt. 2, no. 2), and, lo and behold, the entire article was there are freely accessible, posted as?two pdf files, one for the text and one for the plates.? This was such a pleasant surprise to be able to get this (and any of you who are interested can go find & view it likewise--when you get to the list of the contents of vol. 12 pt. 2, just deselect all the other articles and select text and plates of article IV).? I love them for having the reports?all scanned in and accessible--wouldn't it be great if all state & federal geological survey reports were available this readily!? The clarity of the images is not the best, but I suspect this was due to the photo quality in the original publication, not to be blamed on the scanned version (because another article in that issue downloads nice clear photo images of pollen grains). The other Broken Hill fluorescent minerals described in this article are sphalerite, calcite, anglesite, marshite, stolzite, pyromorphite, mimetite, scheelite, raspite, apatite, fluorite, barite, and bastnaesite; white light & UV photos of the first 5 (plus the orthoclase) are included in the color plates. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Reynard To: Ted@crystalgems.com; Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 8:43 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) Don, Pete & all, Another question/observation about the lead bearing orthoclase! What is its crystallization, monoclinic or triclinic? If the plumbian orthoclase is crystalizing between sanidine and orthoclase means it is a fairly high temperature feldspar and it probably would be monoclinic. Calling it amazonite then would be definitely incorrect. Amazonite is a microcline feldspar and is triclinic, crystalizing at a lower temperature,the jump must have been the color green. I'm quite happy to have a green orthoclase! Ted, I love these exchanges too, as I have printed out all the information and now chewing on it. I have found eventually you begin to understand the more complicated material and it gives you much to think about. Acually I can't wait to see if there are more responses to the "Question"! Thank you all, New York Feldspar Nut, Carolyn Reynard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kowalski" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) > I love these exchanges!! > > I may not remember nor even care about every little point at the time I read > one of these intricately detailed Rockhound rock/mineral discussions; but I > can usually count on my remembering having read about the topic and roughly > where. Which means that when I need to come to grasp with the details, > (usually with a hot new rock in my hands or under consideration), I know > where to come search for more information. > > Thanks Don and Pete for a meticulous, deep and thought provoking exchange > and many thanks to Carolyn for asking the initial question. > > Ted Kowalski > Fredericksburg, VA USA > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Oct 24 16:53:37 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Oct 24 16:53:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" - 2 words explosively mixed together(?) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071024140714.022af3d0@nist.gov> <8C9E499C59EE1B1-964-5595@mblk-d49.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <004d01c81699$185944d0$6401a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Sounds like a mixture of "Krakatoa" and "Kaolinite!" I've heard of the fine rock dust (powder) associated with mountain glaciers as "mountain flour." I think the Troost collection has a jar of that stuff from the Alps. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" I wanted to share this exchange of notes Carol Bova and I had about the "kraokinite"; what I looked up makes me think it probably does refer to kaolinite in snowflakes. You'll find that the old (1884) article Carol sent the link to, right below, is quite interesting: "Take a look at this... could it be this pumice from Krakatoa that was found in snowflakes? http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%28189401%2932%3A143%3C343%3ADFTKEO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage What you say is quite possible, Carol. That was a real interesting excerpt from the Krakatoa article, thanks for sending that link. Of course, the big eruption of Krakatoa was in 1883, so only snowflakes from that year or thereabouts would contain such nuclei. But I easily found via google, references to study of dust particle nuclei within snowflakes. Here's one good scientific article about this, Mineral Dust Aerosols as Ice Forming Nuclei http://sciencepolicy.colorado.edu/about_us/archives/projects/gccs/2001/student_work/nathan.pdf in which one reads, "...mineral dust particles are often collected from the centers of snowflakes. Kaolinite especially has been identified by electron microscopy with sizes ranging from 0.1 to 4 ?m in snowflake centers (Rogers and Yau, 1989)." ?m in snowflake centers (Rogers and Yau, 1989)." I think this is the kind of thing that the person may have been referring to when they wrote that label for Georgia, and "kraokinite" just ended up that way as a misspelled or misread version of kaolinite. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Al Balmer To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:26:31 -0400, "Jeffrey T. Cessna" wrote: >My guess is that Georgia is trying to write a newsletter summary for >a club meeting she could not attend based on notes taken by someone >who was not the club secretary. The secretary was running the >meeting, but was also the rockhound who mentioned the confusing >mineral name (at the meeting). > >The rockhound was visiting a glacier in or near Banff National Park >(in Canada) and wanted to collect some glacier tumbled rocks. The >explanation for not finding any was that they were at such a high >altitude that the only thing coming out of the glacier was >"kraokinite." Which was reported to be a fine dust that serves as the >nucleation point in the formation of snowflakes. Very good! Your hypothesis seems to fit all the known facts, at least. > >This suggests that the earlier answer of kaolinite might be the >correct name. Searching with that spelling produces much more information. > Yes. I tried answers.com, since they apparently use a soundex algorithm to suggest alternate spellings, but the closest suggestion was "granite." >...or it could be a completely unrelated question. > >-Jeff Cessna > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Oct 24 18:32:19 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Oct 24 18:29:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Wis. man finds 3.92-ct white diamond Message-ID: <471FF15F.66DD@Tomaszewski.net> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071023/ap_on_fe_st/odd_diamond_found From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Wed Oct 24 20:11:27 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Wed Oct 24 20:08:04 2007 Subject: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] for astronomy fans & photographers} References: Message-ID: <4720088D.53CE@Tomaszewski.net> Pete, Great question! A pretty good case can be made that the hematite deposits around Lake Superior (and many other locations) were the result of bacterial action. Look at all the excitement when they found hematite on Mars, because it probably indicated bacterial action in the past, making life on Mars more probable. I don't think there is much doubt that most limestone deposits have an organic origin. I'm sure you can think of other sedimentary deposits that are likely organic waste. Do we also exclude the metamorphic deritaves of these organic deposits? I have a specimen of native Selenium crystals. It was found in the remains of a naturally exposed coal seam that burned after a documented lightning strike provided the match. The coal had an organic origin, but I don't think you will find many that would say it is not a valid mineral/specimen. I think the day is coming when Inorganic will be replaced with Natural (as in without Human intervention/involvement) in defining what a mineral is. Standards bodies move slowly for good historical reasons. But the pace of advancements in science is still accelerating. Defining a new mineral now requires you know the atomic structure in detail. We're learning a lot more about how minerals form. I think the IMA will be forced to come around as science pulls them along. Meanwhile, I am going to continue trying to collect/trade/buy at least one specimen of every accepted mineral, and learn as much about each as I can. Last time I checked, the IMA was still blessing new minerals faster than I was adding new minerals to my collection. I may be losing, but I am still in the race -- changing the rules just makes it longer. Kreigh Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > > Those are all very good thoughts, Kreigh! > > and by the way--Kitty & Bill, thanks for that link to the space station > against the solar disk (I'd have said silouhetted except I can't spell that > word), it was quite neat, and I shared that with a few other people. > > and Kreigh, BTW to you, I am always impressed with all the multitudinous > things you know... such as, what company produces the synethic mica (Dow). > > But back to the things you both just said, you've got to watch out about how > broadly you philosophically draw these boundaries connecting and > encompassing all things mineral, astronomical, agricultural and even human, as per your > lines, > > And since plants do their own mining and form the basis of the food > chain, all our agriculture activities are also a subset of Rockhounding. > > because I understand that there is a considerable movement afoot (and this > could beccome a separate discussion topic here on Rockhounds) among > mineralogists to eliminate what some believe is an arbitrary distinction between > "inorganically" and "biologically" formed crystalline substances on and in the > earth, and to just consider them all "minerals", regardless of their mode of > origin. This is an outgrowth of the study of and increasing recognition of the > significance of "biominerals", mineral substances that form either within > living organisms, or extrernally through their metabolic processes or byproducts. > > These scientists argue that, say, calcium carbonate precipated as calcite or > aragonite in the shell or other parts of a living organism or on and around > its surfaces have a perfect right to be considered minerals; and in many > cases, the "minerals" deposited from seawater, or on the walls of caves, on the > surfaces of rocks and sediment grains and in many other environments, would not > form as they do if algae or bacteria or coral or whatever were not present. > Our classic definition of "mineral" says "formed by inorganic processes", > but they argue that often we do not really know what the exact processes are > that form minerals in many of these environments, and what role organisms > play. And that if we stuck to our strict definition of "inorganic processes", > then we would have to consider a lot of our limestones, etc., as not really > rocks or minerals, but biological waste products. So they would like to just > throw out that whole part of the definition of a mineral, period, and say that > anything crystalline that occurs in nature is a mineral, regardless of > whether it is inorganic, organic, or somewhere in between. I'm told that at least > one current mineralogy text advocates this usage. I've had a number of > discussions/arguments about this with at least one geological colleague, with me > trying to uphold the traditional "inorganic" part of the definition, but I > fear that someday this may turn into a losing battle, as more and more is > learned about minerals that form on these borderlines, and the borderlines turn out > to encroach on more and more of our traditional places where minerals grow, > we think, "inorganically". > > Anyone have any further comments on this? > > cheers, Pete Modreski > From jabac at hal-pc.org Wed Oct 24 22:48:05 2007 From: jabac at hal-pc.org (jabac) Date: Wed Oct 24 22:48:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] concrete/cement In-Reply-To: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <291591.21515.qm@web35615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47202E15.9030607@hal-pc.org> June Young wrote: > I have a piece of jasper that appears to have concrete/cement on it. ... Do you know for certain that it was in concrete? Often silica rocks from dry or desert environments are covered with caliche, or various grades of common opal. It could be one of these and will be difficult to remove chemically. In most cases a trip to the grinder is required. john From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Thu Oct 25 03:35:54 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Oct 25 03:35:54 2007 Subject: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? {was: Re: [Rockhounds] forastronomy fans & photographers} In-Reply-To: <4720088D.53CE@Tomaszewski.net> References: <4720088D.53CE@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <001801c816f2$d29e8540$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi Kreigh and Pete > Look at all the excitement when they found hematite on Mars, > because it probably indicated bacterial action in the past, > making life on Mars more probable. I read your arguments with interest but I have magnetite in mind every time I hear the "life-on-Mars-debate" mentioned ;-))) Something I would never forget since I learned that from an avid Mars-meteorite collector who was on the forefront of the research on ALH 84001. I had the honor of meeting Dr. Everett K. Gibson (senior scientist at NASA and a planetary biologist among others) twice and he thoroughly explained to me how his group tried to debunk the idea of biological origin of the magnetite crystals in the meteorite. They couldn't and Dr. Gibson got really enthusiastic at this point of his argumentation. Understandably so, I might add. So I looked it up. If you look at the 6th paragraph of this page http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_meteor_020514.html You'll find magnetite as the indicator for life on Mars. Are the large hematite strata not the work of algae rather than bacteria? I believe it was cyano-algae that did it in the Precambrian era (unless it was colonel Mustard who did it in the ballroom with the candlestick. LOL) > I have a specimen of native Selenium crystals. It was found > in the remains of a naturally exposed coal seam that burned > after a documented lightning strike provided the match. The > coal had an organic origin, but I don't think you will find > many that would say it is not a valid mineral/specimen. Vivianite that grew out of the phosphate of the teeth of fossilized animals is also recognized as valid mineral. Kratochvillite or salmiak found on burning waste of a coalmine is not. I know some people who collect slag minerals. Their frustration is that they are not taken serious because of the non-status of these "neo-mineralizations". If I recall right, the story of mammothite would fit in here nicely. If memory serves me it was first discovered in an underwater locality, off the coast of Lavrion, Ittaca, Greece, where it formed on ancient slag from the antique lead industry. The IMA refused to recognize it as a new mineral due to the interference of man, be it over 2000 years ago. It wasn't until the same mineral was found in a natural genesis that the IMA approved it. The type locality is now said to be Mammoth vein, Tiger, Arizona, USA and Laurium, Attika, Greece. In the same way, one could argue that a lightning strike on exposed coal beds can only yield new minerals if the outcrop of coal was natural. If the exposure of the coal layers to the elements is the work of man, the validity of any minerals species would become questionable. Cheers Axel From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Thu Oct 25 05:25:11 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Thu Oct 25 05:46:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] DON HALTERMAN Message-ID: <000201c81705$10770510$0550d0c4@federatiydq01o> Hi all, I urgently need the present e-mail address of Don Halterman (whom I have to contact off-line). The one that I have - morningstar@worldnet.att.net is apparently no longer valid. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Horst --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 05:52:25 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 05:52:54 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] DON HALTERMAN Message-ID: Hi Horst, Don posts to this list all the time, so I'm sure he'll see this right away (unless he's already off on his way, travelling to Denver for the GSA Annual Meeting which starts this weekend). But I'll send you his current address right now--maybe Don already has written to you himself, _donhalterman@verizon.net_ (mailto:donhalterman@verizon.net) I hope all is well with you! Pete Modreski ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 06:28:05 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 06:28:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Mars minerals Message-ID: Hi Axel, List, There certainly are micro magnetite xls within living organisms. However, all I've read about the Mars or Martian meteorite studies, has not convinced me that its presence (or hematite) on Mars proves anything about evidence for life on Mars, or even inference for water for that matter. There are lots of ways that these minerals form totally inorganically, and not necessary involving anything about H2O. Some scientists have continued to write that they provide evidence for water, but I don't think their arguments are convincing; as far as I am concerned, it has indeed been "debunked" that anything in the Martian meteorites provides anything in the way of evidence for life processes on Mars. Going back to the organic/inorganic question, in my discussions with friends about this, one of my arguments/concerns is that if we remove all requirement for "inorganic" for what we treat as a mineral, then any crystalline substance found in any living organism could be considered a mineral. One example that I give (though I'm not sure if this actually occurs or not) is if sugar crystals formed in some fruit--for example, grapes drying and turning into raisins, so that if the sugar were concentrated enough and formed little sugar crystals as they dried, one could then consider "sucrose" to be a mineral. Likewise perhaps for crystalline forms of DNA or RNA. To me, this all is getting away from the basic premise that mineralogists study things that the Earth is made of, whereas biologists study life form, and "minerals" are the things that the solid earth is composed of. cheers, Pete ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Thu Oct 25 07:47:24 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Oct 25 07:47:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501c81715$f4db8b80$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi Pete, List, > has not convinced me that its presence (or hematite) on Mars > proves anything about evidence for life on Mars, or even > inference for water for that matter. I believe it was the size and configuration of the magnetite crystals in the meteorite that was consistent with what earth bacteria produce. Not just the occurrence or the size or the orientation or the trace elements but ALL of these factors that indicates strongly towards a biogenic origin. The team has spent years trying to find just ONE thing that could upset the whole "Mars-bacteria" theory. They found none. Not one. > There are lots of ways > that these minerals form totally inorganically, and not > necessary involving anything about H2O. Some scientists > have continued to write that they provide evidence for > water, but I don't think their arguments are convincing; as > far as I am concerned, it has indeed been "debunked" that > anything in the Martian meteorites provides anything in the > way of evidence for life processes on Mars. The same guys that investigated these "bacteria droppings" also investigated nanovirusses that were found in rock samples beneath the ocean floor. Solid rock from 5 miles deep near Australia. These little critters are barely 20 nanometers in size which is between 1/10 and 1/15 of the wavelength of a UV-photon. The team succeeded in demonstrating that these nanovirusses are indeed a life form by showing that they possess RNA and thus reproduce. Now, if these guys say that the magnetite crystals in ALH 84001 are probably biogenic I believe them because : - there is no evidence that they aren't - the configuration in which they are found is typical for biogenic magnetite also found on earth thus most likely biogenic - they have proven to be resourceful and trustworthy Why? Occam's razor, that's why. It's just the simplest explanation... The only way to come to the alternative conclusion is by delivering proof that it is more logical for these magnetites to be the result of non-biological processes. Not just remotely possible, more logical. > Going back to the organic/inorganic question, in my > discussions with friends about this, one of my > arguments/concerns is that if we remove all requirement for > "inorganic" for what we treat as a mineral, then any > crystalline substance found in any living organism could be > considered a mineral. Whewellite, Karpathite, are organic... OK, grandfathered but still... The IMA has previously reviewed some mineral names and these, among others, are still valid. > One example that I give (though I'm > not sure if this actually occurs or not) is if sugar > crystals formed in some fruit--for example, grapes drying and > turning into raisins, so that if the sugar were concentrated > enough and formed little sugar > crystals as they dried, one could then consider "sucrose" to > be a mineral. Hm? Fossil sugar? You'd have to consult a paleobotanist for that ;-))) Personally I do not care whether biogenic minerals are validated or not as long as it is done with some degree of consistency. > Likewise perhaps for crystalline forms of DNA or RNA. To > me, this all is > getting away from the basic premise that mineralogists study > things that the Earth is made of, whereas biologists study > life form, and "minerals" are the things that the solid earth > is composed of. It's how you look at it... It's all about segregation and how to segregate segregation processes ;-))) Cheers Axel From Pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 07:55:41 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 07:56:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals Message-ID: Ah, sorry, Axel, but I still totally disagree; there is absolutely NO convincing evidence that magnetite crystals in a Mars meteorite have ANY characteristics that imply biogenic origin. Any imaginable kind of magnetite crystal can just as well form inorganically (ask any micromineral collector). A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or still think they do. People get very enamored of their own pet hypotheses, and they tend to hold on to them in spite of evidence to the contrary or of lack of evidence supporting them. Just my two cents about this. All will be clarified and time goes on and science continues to progress, of course. Pete ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Thu Oct 25 08:57:47 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Thu Oct 25 08:57:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? +Marsminerals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004b01c8171f$c9f8a600$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Yes Pete, you may be right... Or not... As you say, clarification is underway ;-))) > A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these > meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have > just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or > still think they do. Well, I actually have been talking to the man who investigated ALH 84001. He's a respected scientist and I don't doubt his capabilties for a second. On the other hand, even Einstein made a mistake... Yeah, anything's possible. OK, gottogo back to woooooooooooooork... Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Pmodreski@aol.com > Verzonden: donderdag 25 oktober 2007 15:56 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A > Mineral? +Marsminerals > > Ah, sorry, Axel, but I still totally disagree; there is > absolutely NO convincing evidence that magnetite crystals in > a Mars meteorite have ANY characteristics that imply biogenic > origin. Any imaginable kind of magnetite crystal can just > as well form inorganically (ask any micromineral collector). > A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these > meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have > just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or > still think they do. People get very enamored of their own > pet hypotheses, and they tend to hold on to them in spite of > evidence to the contrary or of lack of evidence supporting them. > > Just my two cents about this. All will be clarified and time > goes on and science continues to progress, of course. > > Pete > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 09:42:21 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 09:42:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? +Marsminerals In-Reply-To: <004b01c8171f$c9f8a600$6401a8c0@AxelHP> References: <004b01c8171f$c9f8a600$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <8C9E53D25EFCE83-8B4-3674@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Science would be dull indeed if there were no disagreements or questions! Looking at this philosophically, part of it comes down to the difference between "data" (or observations) and "interpretations". We think, or assume, that?our observations are unambiguously correct and are "facts", and that it's just the interpretations drawn from them that are subject to question and revision. But of course, as new knowledge comes to light, we?sometimes find?that what we thought were clear-cut observations, can be refined to yield different data--from more precise measurements, new techniques, and just recognition of new things to look for. Comparably, some interpretations are so well-grounded in observations that we think of them as being "truths", unambiguous facts, and we sometimes even lose track of the fact that they are still interpretations and perhaps subject to change if new data emerge; the law of gravity, the speed of light...? and we sometimes have trouble convincing some people of the correctness of things which we believe to be demonstrated "facts"--evolution, the age of the earth and of the universe, etc.... especially when those people have a personally vested interest in believing otherwise*. (* dare I add to this little list... global warming?) Yes, we'll get back to work now. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Axel Emmermann To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 9:57 am Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? +Marsminerals Yes Pete, you may be right... Or not... As you say, clarification is underway ;-))) > A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these > meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have > just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or > still think they do. Well, I actually have been talking to the man who investigated ALH 84001. He's a respected scientist and I don't doubt his capabilties for a second. On the other hand, even Einstein made a mistake... Yeah, anything's possible. OK, gottogo back to woooooooooooooork... Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Pmodreski@aol.com > Verzonden: donderdag 25 oktober 2007 15:56 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A > Mineral? +Marsminerals > > Ah, sorry, Axel, but I still totally disagree; there is > absolutely NO convincing evidence that magnetite crystals in > a Mars meteorite have ANY characteristics that imply biogenic > origin. Any imaginable kind of magnetite crystal can just > as well form inorganically (ask any micromineral collector). > A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these > meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have > just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or > still think they do. People get very enamored of their own > pet hypotheses, and they tend to hold on to them in spite of > evidence to the contrary or of lack of evidence supporting them. > > Just my two cents about this. All will be clarified and time > goes on and science continues to progress, of course. > > Pete > ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Oct 25 09:54:19 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Oct 25 09:58:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Mars minerals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4720CA3B.80900@verizon.net> Pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > One example > that I give (though I'm not sure if this actually occurs or not) is if sugar > crystals formed in some fruit--for example, grapes drying and turning into > raisins, That would be an absurd extreme. Sugar is a water-soluble organic molecule. The breakdown of the borders refers to things like apatites in teeth and bones. If someone needed your help and wanted to give you a grant to study the uptake of trace elements from drinking water in the hydroxylapatite tooth structure of children, would you turn it down because it is not an inorganic origin? I suppose you could, but then that provides more opportunity for a mineralogist who can think about the practical applications and interdisciplinary relevance of mineralogy. "For things are interesting, only in so far as they relate themselves to other things." -- D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson Don From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 10:00:25 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:01:12 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <471EA56E.1F5C@Tomaszewski.net> References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <471E42D600001F2F@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) <471EA56E.1F5C@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <8C9E53FABF71930-8B4-37DC@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Just a P.S. about this--looking at the latest post I made to the List... The thing that drives me batty about this, is that these mystery question marks seem to appear without ANY logical reason as to why they should pop up where they are.? For example in my latest post to the list, I wrote (copying this from my sent mail file), We think, or assume, that?our observations are unambiguously correct... and in this line as I typed it there was no punctuation except for the two commas after "think" and "assume", and especially no punctuation or end-of-line or?ANYTHING after the word "that".? But when it appeared in my email from the listserv, it appeared as We think, or assume, that?our observations are unambiguously correct Why that little mystery question mark decided to appear after the word "that" is sure a mystery to me! [Now of course, I've typed or pasted in these lines just now as I intend you to see them, who knows quite how they will look when the server relays them.] [I wonder perhaps if?this occurs when I have typed something, then have backed up and deleted or edited it, so that nothing unusual appears visually in my email as I send it, but there remains some residual format difference that registers to the programs that transfer it from email to listserv email.] Thanks to the several of you who tried of offer comments/suggestions as to why these things take place! Pete -----Original Message----- From: Kreigh Tomaszewski To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (was) lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) is a 'non-breaking space' that prevents a space character from wrapping when the text is formatted. It is used to connect two words with what appears to be a normal space so that they always appear together on the same line. Kreigh Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > You are not alone in the magical appearance of the mystery question > mark. I've seen it in other people's email and even occasionally on > the Web in---for example---captions for pictures. It seems that it > appears after or during sending or posting, so there's no way you can > catch it in proofreading. <. > is another mystery appearance too. > > Aloha, Kitty > > At 08:39 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote: > >(P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I > >am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding > >those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason > >that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question > >mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) > > -- ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 10:03:56 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:04:04 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Mars minerals In-Reply-To: <4720CA3B.80900@verizon.net> References: <4720CA3B.80900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Of course, Don. But if we "officially" amended the definition of a mineral to simply be "any naturally occuring crystalline compound or element" which is what some would advocate,?then where/how do we stick in the caveat that we still want to exclude any crystalline forms of sugar, starch, cellulose, DNA, amino acids, proteins, or whatever else is strictly completely 100% biological? -----Original Message----- From: DonH To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:54 am Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Mars minerals Pmodreski@aol.com wrote:? > One example? > that I give (though I'm not sure if this actually occurs or not) is if sugar > crystals formed in some fruit--for example, grapes drying and turning into > raisins, ? That would be an absurd extreme. Sugar is a water-soluble organic molecule. The breakdown of the borders refers to things like apatites in teeth and bones. If someone needed your help and wanted to give you a grant to study the uptake of trace elements from drinking water in the hydroxylapatite tooth structure of children, would you turn it down because it is not an inorganic origin? I suppose you could, but then that provides more opportunity for a mineralogist who can think about the practical applications and interdisciplinary relevance of mineralogy.? ? "For things are interesting, only in so far as they relate themselves to other things." -- D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson? ? Don? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From larryrush at worldnet.att.net Thu Oct 25 10:39:03 2007 From: larryrush at worldnet.att.net (Lawrence Rush) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:39:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral?+Marsminerals References: <004b01c8171f$c9f8a600$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <8C9E53D25EFCE83-8B4-3674@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c8172d$efca9f60$4add2c4b@LarryRush> Anyone who has tried to understand Quantum Mechanics would undoubtedly agree with you, Pete. It seems that many of our observations of nature in the macro world are untenable in the sub-atomic. New data in the world of Physics turns our understandings of what is "fact" and "observable" upside down, belying what we have felt to be obvious and intuitive in the past, making them paradoxical now. This also has to have implications in the world of Mineralogy, and as Don points out, inter-disciplinary study becomes ever more important in our understanding of these things. As one who accepted Mineralogy 101 as the "bottom line" 50 years ago, it is understandable, but especially hard for me to see it outmoded in today's Universities!! Larry From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Oct 25 10:44:12 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:46:22 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Mars minerals In-Reply-To: <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> References: <4720CA3B.80900@verizon.net> <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4720D5EC.4010202@verizon.net> pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > Of course, Don. > > But if we "officially" amended the definition of a mineral to simply be "any naturally occuring crystalline compound or element" which is what some would advocate,?then where/how do we stick in the caveat that we still want to exclude any crystalline forms of sugar, starch, cellulose, DNA, amino acids, proteins, or whatever else is strictly completely 100% biological? Well, we can draw a fuzzy but thick line at the border of non-solid, short-range-ordered substances. There are people who already specialize in those materials. I think you are making a straw-man argument. Mineralogists specialize in materials that are *usually* inorganic but may have organic analogues. It seems to be a matter of making the borderline a little more permeable, rather than trying to make inorganic and organic chemistry one big happy family. For example, someone from another department wanted help determining what was precipitating out of their foul solution (which contained urea and smelled like an outhouse). By using the polarizing light microscope and the x-ray diffractometer, we determined there was calcite as well as some some sort of ammonium salt. After that, we advised them to take it to the chemistry dept. Now, we didn't originally say "no we won't help you, that's biogenic," but after we had done what we could in the mineral realm, we referred the issue elsewhere. And while I'm on the subject, we occasionally look at a materials science problem. That's a trend, and in fact I've taken to calling "American Mineralogist" as "American Materials Scientist." Well I hope that makes some sense, but I must move on and work on some other things now. best, Don From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Thu Oct 25 10:53:47 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Thu Oct 25 10:53:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals In-Reply-To: <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000401c81730$01019890$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> While in hobbyist rather than scientist mode I generally think of "minerals" as almost anything that occurs naturally within the crust of the Earth, so biogenically formed minerals within rock and sediment are definitely "fair game." So too are petroleum, minerals formed from the biogenic components of coal, the solid hydrocarbons such as gilsonite, wurtzilite, ozocerite, etc. I realize that these things conform neither to the scientific nor (sometimes) the legal definition of "mineral", but that's how I think about them. It's just a practical consideration that influences what I collect and what I don't. And of course the meteorites that fall upon the crust of the Earth are fair game, too. But I specifically exclude all the biological "fuzz" that hides my rocks: trees, grasses, the things that you would normally regard as parts of the biosphere, as opposed to the lithosphere. Would that distinction, biosphere vs. lithosphere, perhaps come into an expanded definition of just what is and what is not a mineral? Yes, the two "spheres" overlap, but could we at least exclude any substance that forms above the land surface from the definition of "mineral," so we'd have to address only the subterranean parts of the biosphere? Just random thoughts. Do I need another cup of coffee? Cheers- Earl ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@ptd.net From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 11:01:08 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 11:02:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals In-Reply-To: <000401c81730$01019890$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <8C9E548279284E6-8B4-3C8B@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> I still puzzle over whether ice belongs as a mineral.? Yes, I know it does, but?should we include glacial ice but exclude snowflakes that form high in the atmosphere, or frost crystals that form on your windowpane, or bigger hoarfrost crystals that form on the walls of a mine adit near its portal? I realize a lot of this is total semantics, but it's just interesting to think about the boundaries that encompass what we study (or collect) as "minerals".? I guess the nitty gritty gets down to what things are allowed to be named as mineral species, and which are not because they are human- or biologically- derived. Pete -----Original Message----- From: Earl R. Verbeek To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 11:53 am Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals While in hobbyist rather than scientist mode I generally think of "minerals" as almost anything that occurs naturally within the crust of the Earth, so biogenically formed minerals within rock and sediment are definitely "fair game." So too are petroleum, minerals formed from the biogenic components of coal, the solid hydrocarbons such as gilsonite, wurtzilite, ozocerite, etc. I realize that these things conform neither to the scientific nor (sometimes) the legal definition of "mineral", but that's how I think about them. It's just a practical consideration that influences what I collect and what I don't. And of course the meteorites that fall upon the crust of the Earth are fair game, too. But I specifically exclude all the biological "fuzz" that hides my rocks: trees, grasses, the things that you would normally regard as parts of the biosphere, as opposed to the lithosphere. Would that distinction, biosphere vs. lithosphere, perhaps come into an expanded definition of just what is and what is not a mineral? Yes, the two "spheres" overlap, but could we at least exclude any substance that forms above the land surface from the definition of "mineral," so we'd have to address only the subterranean parts of the biosphere? Just random thoughts. Do I need another cup of coffee? Cheers- Earl ----------------------------------- Earl R. Verbeek, Resident Geologist Sterling Hill Mining Museum 30 Plant St., Ogdensburg, NJ 07439 973-209-7212 shmm@ptd.net -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From albalmer at att.net Thu Oct 25 11:53:36 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Thu Oct 25 11:53:45 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals In-Reply-To: <000401c81730$01019890$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> References: <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> <000401c81730$01019890$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <6cp1i3p5gh8ec2l96qeqeco87s0h3hjdrh@4ax.com> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:53:47 -0400, "Earl R. Verbeek" wrote: >I realize that these things conform neither to the scientific nor >(sometimes) the legal definition of "mineral", but that's how I think about >them. It's just a practical consideration that influences what I collect >and what I don't. You bring up another question. What's in a name? Obviously, you can study whatever subset of the universe you like. It may be convenient to have an accepted label to discuss it with other people, but how important is it that the boundaries of that label be precisely defined? -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 12:11:57 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 12:12:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + ... Jade In-Reply-To: <6cp1i3p5gh8ec2l96qeqeco87s0h3hjdrh@4ax.com> References: <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> <000401c81730$01019890$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <6cp1i3p5gh8ec2l96qeqeco87s0h3hjdrh@4ax.com> Message-ID: <8C9E5520BCAB38C-8B4-4228@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Well, when someone is studying or writing/talking about some earth materials, it sure does help if the terminology they are using means the same to everyone!? We do get problems as to exactly what different people are referring to, when they start talking about such things as sunstone or moonstone or semi-opal (some of those confusions have appeared on this listserv). Along the lines of which, this reminds me that I recently read in a discussion (not on Rockhounds I don't think, somewhere else) about semantics problems about what is "jade".? I have always used the terminology that there are two different minerals which can be called "jade", nephrite jade (nephrite being a variety of tremolite-actinolite amphibole) and jadeite (it being a separate mineral in the pyroxene family, NaAlSi2O6).? I was surprised to recently read that some gemological "purists" are now taking the position that only jadeite is TRUE jade, and that they would like to refer to the other always as "nephrite jade".? (Personally, I still think they are both "jade"!) Pete -----Original Message----- From: Al Balmer To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:53:47 -0400, "Earl R. Verbeek" wrote: >I realize that these things conform neither to the scientific nor >(sometimes) the legal definition of "mineral", but that's how I think about >them. It's just a practical consideration that influences what I collect >and what I don't. You bring up another question. What's in a name? Obviously, you can study whatever subset of the universe you like. It may be convenient to have an accepted label to discuss it with other people, but how important is it that the boundaries of that label be precisely defined? -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ -- ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From turnea55 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 12:40:21 2007 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Thu Oct 25 12:40:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + ... Jade In-Reply-To: <8C9E5520BCAB38C-8B4-4228@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: >From the Glossary of Geology (1997) Mineral-A naturally occurring inorganic element or compound having a periodically repeating arrangement of atoms and characteristic chemical composition, resulting in distintive physical properties. This is basically the definition we used throughout all mineralogy, phase equilibrium, ore deposits, and material science classes I took. Sugar (and oil for that matter) is not a mineral as it is an organic compound, although a mineral can be formed by organic processes (i.e. a seashell is made of aragonite). Opal is not a mineral as it doesn't have a definite crystalline structure (it is basically quartz with water molecules that are not in the crystalline structure). Sunstone is a type of plagioclase feldspar (basically labradorite-bytonite). Feldspar is the most common mineral group on earth. There is some confusion with some minerals and substances, but the general definition holds true for basically all cases and is the one used in the scientific community. Andrew Turner Victorville, CA USA >From: pmodreski@aol.com >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + ... Jade >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:11:57 -0400 > >Well, when someone is studying or writing/talking about some earth >materials, it sure does help if the terminology they are using means the >same to everyone!? We do get problems as to exactly what different people >are referring to, when they start talking about such things as sunstone or >moonstone or semi-opal (some of those confusions have appeared on this >listserv). > >Along the lines of which, this reminds me that I recently read in a >discussion (not on Rockhounds I don't think, somewhere else) about >semantics problems about what is "jade".? I have always used the >terminology that there are two different minerals which can be called >"jade", nephrite jade (nephrite being a variety of tremolite-actinolite >amphibole) and jadeite (it being a separate mineral in the pyroxene family, >NaAlSi2O6).? I was surprised to recently read that some gemological >"purists" are now taking the position that only jadeite is TRUE jade, and >that they would like to refer to the other always as "nephrite jade".? >(Personally, I still think they are both "jade"!) > >Pete > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Balmer >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > >Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:53 pm >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + >Marsminerals > > > >On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:53:47 -0400, "Earl R. Verbeek" > wrote: > > >I realize that these things conform neither to the scientific nor > >(sometimes) the legal definition of "mineral", but that's how I think >about > >them. It's just a practical consideration that influences what I collect > >and what I don't. > >You bring up another question. What's in a name? Obviously, you can >study whatever subset of the universe you like. It may be convenient >to have an accepted label to discuss it with other people, but how >important is it that the boundaries of that label be precisely >defined? > >-- >Al Balmer >Sun City, AZ > >-- > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - >http://mail.aol.com > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From folmstead at rcn.com Thu Oct 25 12:48:21 2007 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Thu Oct 25 12:48:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] "Kraokinite" In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <471C8C230002FB19@n054.sc0.he.tucows.com> <471E9AC1.6E9E@Tomaszewski.net> <471EB520.70908@rcn.com> <6fpuh3to3994ifoc4jvq6k1cu6agdpq230@4ax.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20071024140714.022af3d0@nist.gov> Message-ID: <4720F305.9040205@rcn.com> Hi Thankzzz for all you'll help. you "guys" are good..... My friend was on vacation and wanted to collect "rocks" on the glacier. Was told no rocks on the (top of ) glacier. Just the "kraokinite." I was not writing anything.... just trying to figure out what this "stuff" was. ...the other remarks were interesting... our President was not at the last meeting. The Vice President asked the Secretary to lead the meeting if the VP was not there in time... The Secretary did lead the meeting.... This secretary happened to be the person who talked to the vp about the kraokinite stuff.....'' Sounds like a Steven King story..... GeorgiaO __..-..__..--..__ "Al Balmer wrote: >On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:26:31 -0400, "Jeffrey T. Cessna" > wrote: > > > >>My guess is that Georgia is trying to write a newsletter summary for >>a club meeting she could not attend based on notes taken by someone >>who was not the club secretary. The secretary was running the >>meeting, but was also the rockhound who mentioned the confusing >>mineral name (at the meeting). >> >>The rockhound was visiting a glacier in or near Banff National Park >>(in Canada) and wanted to collect some glacier tumbled rocks. The >>explanation for not finding any was that they were at such a high >>altitude that the only thing coming out of the glacier was >>"kraokinite." Which was reported to be a fine dust that serves as the >>nucleation point in the formation of snowflakes. >> >> > >Very good! Your hypothesis seems to fit all the known facts, at >least. > > >>This suggests that the earlier answer of kaolinite might be the >>correct name. Searching with that spelling produces much more information. >> >> >> >Yes. I tried answers.com, since they apparently use a soundex >algorithm to suggest alternate spellings, but the closest suggestion >was "granite." > > > >>...or it could be a completely unrelated question. >> >>-Jeff Cessna >> >>At 11:35 AM 10/24/2007, you wrote: >> >> >>>On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:59:44 -0400, Frederick Olmstead >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Hello >>>> >>>>all you helpful "guys" and "gals" >>>> >>>>kraokinite >>>> >>>>I searched for kraokinite and found nada. >>>> >>>>Something about showflace - center of... >>>>Anyone know what I am trying to talk about? >>>> >>>>From a rockhound who asked me... "...no rocks on the glacer -- but >>>>just the center - of the snowflake - kraokinite." >>>> >>>>Thankzzz >>>> >>>>GeorgiaO >>>> >>>> >>>I suspect that whatever it is, you've spelled it wrong. Ask the >>>rockhound you talked to to elaborate. >>> >>> > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Thu Oct 25 13:21:03 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Thu Oct 25 13:21:27 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + ... Jade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c81744$9f0fffe0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Andrew Turner wrote: >From the Glossary of Geology (1997) Mineral-A naturally occurring inorganic element or compound having a periodically repeating arrangement of atoms and characteristic chemical composition, resulting in distintive physical properties. This is basically the definition we used throughout all mineralogy, phase equilibrium, ore deposits, and material science classes I took. Sugar (and oil for that matter) is not a mineral as it is an organic compound, although a mineral can be formed by organic processes (i.e. a seashell is made of aragonite). Opal is not a mineral as it doesn't have a definite crystalline structure (it is basically quartz with water molecules that are not in the crystalline structure). ------------------------------------ But opal is still recognized by the International Mineralogical Association as a valid mineral species, and always has been. It is indeed a mineral, even though it doesn't conform to all aspects of the normal definition. Mercury is another example -- it too is listed as a valid mineral species by the IMA, but as a liquid it does not possess a "periodically repeating arrangement of atoms." The fact that opal and mercury have always (as far as I know) been regarded as minerals is an example of good science at work. Yes, we've long had a practical definition of "mineral", as cited above from the Glossary of Geology, but room has always been made for exceptions as a practical matter. As a geologist-in-training many years ago I remember having the properties of word definitions and classification schemes drummed into my head, and I remember the warnings about not arbitrarily excluding things just because they don't neatly fall into a classification pigeonhole or conform to a particular definition. We humans create the pigeonholes, but nature creates the minerals, and it seems only proper to regard opal and mercury as valid minerals along with the rest. Cheers- Earl Verbeek From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 25 13:34:31 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Oct 25 13:34:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: References: <8C9E5520BCAB38C-8B4-4228@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4714A86D001F2AE7@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) I think there are some who insist that if there is any human involvement in its formation, it's not a true mineral. Example: zincite from Franklin NJ is fine, but that from Polish smelting is not considered legitimate, even though it occurs without humans deliberately making it (it also fluoresces nicely ;-)) . Minium is OK except when it occurred in an accidental mine fire in Broken Hill, Australia; the fire was not deliberate, but it was caused by human activity. I have a piece of jeromite that came about as a result of a coal mine fire in the Czech Republic, and for that reason, I believe, it doesn't fit the criteria of a valid mineral species. I guess if it were possible for fire started by lightening to cause a mineral to occur in a location that had not been altered by humans, that would be OK, right? Aloha, Kitty At 09:40 AM 10/25/2007, you wrote: > From the Glossary of Geology (1997) > >Mineral-A naturally occurring inorganic element or compound having a >periodically repeating arrangement of atoms and characteristic >chemical composition, resulting in distintive physical properties. > >This is basically the definition we used throughout all mineralogy, >phase equilibrium, ore deposits, and material science classes I took. > >Sugar (and oil for that matter) is not a mineral as it is an organic >compound, although a mineral can be formed by organic processes >(i.e. a seashell is made of aragonite). > >Opal is not a mineral as it doesn't have a definite crystalline >structure (it is basically quartz with water molecules that are not >in the crystalline structure). > >Sunstone is a type of plagioclase feldspar (basically >labradorite-bytonite). Feldspar is the most common mineral group on earth. > >There is some confusion with some minerals and substances, but the >general definition holds true for basically all cases and is the one >used in the scientific community. > >Andrew Turner >Victorville, CA USA From pmodreski at aol.com Thu Oct 25 13:43:25 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Thu Oct 25 13:43:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction In-Reply-To: <000001c81744$9f0fffe0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <8C9E55ED2F78BDB-8B4-4918@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> I've meant to write back to the List and thank _________ (well, darn, I can't find his post any more, maybe I deleted it or I'm not looking under the correct heading), but to thank him for mentioning the Oct. 28 auction of "Historic Meteorites and Related Americana" by Bonhams in NYC on October 28. Their online catalog of the 53 items in this auction is really worth viewing, because many of the items are truly remarkable, unique, and historic.? It's at http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=Catalogue&iSaleNo=15648 If you're at all interested in meteorites and have not followed up this post to look at this catalog, I'd encourage you to do so.? It really has a wealth of information,?with excellent photographs and good descriptions of all the items.? The projected two most expensive items for sale are Steve Arnold's 1410-pound "main mass" of the Brenham, Kansas pallasite, and the 29.5-pound piece sawn off the Williamette meteorite, otherwise on display at the American Museum of Natural History and subject of much controversy.? There are many other very interesting meteorite samples, as well as the mailbox smashed by a meteorite fall in Georgia... In fact, I went ahead and called to order a copy of the printed catalog ($30), not because I am bidding on anything, but because I think this will be a useful and informative book to keep for future reference. Pete Modreski ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Thu Oct 25 13:44:17 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Thu Oct 25 13:45:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: <4714A86D001F2AE7@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <000201c81747$cfe83e40$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Kitty wrote: I guess if it were possible for fire started by lightning to cause a mineral to occur in a location that had not been altered by humans, that would be OK, right? --------------------------------- Yes, that is correct. And it's happened. I used to study clinker sheets (sedimentary rocks baked and locally melted over burned coal beds), and in many instances the outcrops of coal were natural and the fire was ignited by lightning. Prehistoric occurrences, of course, are more numerous than the historic ones (more time). I was studying the internal structure of clinker sheets with a view to determining paleodirections of fire advance, but others were studying their mineralogy. The conditions are quite odd for nature -- extremely high temperatures combined with extremely low pressures -- so you'd expect new mineral species to form. I hope I'm not making this up, but I think Eric Essene described one or more new mineral species from clinker beds (Pete M. would probably know). Happens with rich oil shales, too... Cheers- Earl Verbeek From turnea55 at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 14:21:35 2007 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Thu Oct 25 14:21:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: <000201c81747$cfe83e40$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: There has always been this argument about whether human involvement can create a valid mineral. One of the more ambiguous examples concerns the Laurium, Greece deposits where many minerals (mainly secondary copper minerals) form on slag material left from past mining operations. The slag was obviously created by humans, but the minerals did form on them by natural processes. In most cases, it has been concluded that these are valid species and is one of the reasons why Laurium has so many unique minerals. Mercury is an example that does not conform to the crystallinity rule. However, it appears as though it had been "grandfathered" in sometime during the discussion on what to call a mineral. It appears as though opal had the same fate (see below). "Although it is still (2007) regarded as a valid mineral species for historical reasons, Opal is not a true mineral in the accepted sense of the word as it is composed of Cristobalite and/or Tridymite and amorphous silica (closely packed spheres form a diffraction grating to create Precious Opal)." This is a good discussion. You want a real nightmare, we should discuss what goes into naming a mineral and the move to begin a more scientific naming classification (as they have done with some amphiboles) as more and more minerals are discovered each year due mainly to our new technology (SIMS, EDS, microprobe, etc.). Andrew Turner Victorville, CA >From: "Earl R. Verbeek" >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors'" >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement >Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:44:17 -0400 > >Kitty wrote: >I guess if it were possible for fire started by lightning to cause a >mineral to occur in a location that had not been altered by humans, >that would be OK, right? >--------------------------------- > >Yes, that is correct. And it's happened. I used to study clinker sheets >(sedimentary rocks baked and locally melted over burned coal beds), and in >many instances the outcrops of coal were natural and the fire was ignited >by >lightning. Prehistoric occurrences, of course, are more numerous than the >historic ones (more time). I was studying the internal structure of >clinker >sheets with a view to determining paleodirections of fire advance, but >others were studying their mineralogy. The conditions are quite odd for >nature -- extremely high temperatures combined with extremely low pressures >-- so you'd expect new mineral species to form. I hope I'm not making this >up, but I think Eric Essene described one or more new mineral species from >clinker beds (Pete M. would probably know). Happens with rich oil shales, >too... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From donhalterman at verizon.net Thu Oct 25 14:33:36 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (DonH) Date: Thu Oct 25 14:39:00 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47210BB0.7070901@verizon.net> Hi, > The > slag was obviously created by humans, but the minerals did form on them > by natural processes. In most cases, it has been concluded that these > are valid species and is one of the reasons why Laurium has so many > unique minerals. Not any more though--the commission decided that no nwe slag minerals would be named. > Mercury is an example that does not conform to the crystallinity rule. We must keep in mind that mercury is a special case because it is a native element, and the rock-forming native elements have their own Dana class. In this instance it would be silly to leave it out. Don From lanny at lrream.com Thu Oct 25 14:51:33 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Thu Oct 25 14:51:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Andrew Turner wrote: > There has always been this argument about whether human involvement > can create a valid mineral. One of the more ambiguous examples > concerns the Laurium, Greece deposits where many minerals (mainly > secondary copper minerals) form on slag material left from past mining > operations. The slag was obviously created by humans, but the > minerals did form on them by natural processes. In most cases, it has > been concluded that these are valid species and is one of the reasons > why Laurium has so many unique minerals. > > Yes, but didn't IMA decide several years ago that there would be no more designation of mineral species formed in this way? Same with "new" minerals formed in mine workings and on mine dumps. Regards, Lanny From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Thu Oct 25 14:59:50 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:01:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4714A86D001F6616@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) I would think there would be lots of problems ascertaining if there were human involvement. For example, if a mineral was created as a result of a fire, we'd have to know not only if the fire was lit by an arsonist, but if anywhere along the line humans could be the cause....like the Forest Service deciding to put out all fires in the past and thus create more fuel, or whether the fire consumed any man-made materials. Aloha, Kitty At 11:51 AM 10/25/2007, you wrote: >On Oct 25, 2007, at 2:21 PM, Andrew Turner wrote: > >>There has always been this argument about whether human involvement >>can create a valid mineral. One of the more ambiguous examples >>concerns the Laurium, Greece deposits where many minerals (mainly >>secondary copper minerals) form on slag material left from past >>mining operations. The slag was obviously created by humans, but >>the minerals did form on them by natural processes. In most cases, >>it has been concluded that these are valid species and is one of >>the reasons why Laurium has so many unique minerals. >> >Yes, but didn't IMA decide several years ago that there would be no >more designation of mineral species formed in this way? Same with >"new" minerals formed in mine workings and on mine dumps. > >Regards, > >Lanny From dorothy.merritts at fandm.edu Thu Oct 25 15:16:22 2007 From: dorothy.merritts at fandm.edu (Dorothy Merritts) Date: Thu Oct 25 15:16:29 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County Message-ID: <002b01c81754$acf861f0$b533449b@franklin614828> Dear Rockhound folks: I am a geology professor at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, and I am intrigued by the history of mining in Lancaster County. I saw a reference to the Woods Chrome mine on the Rockhound list. I am looking for a place to take 16 geology and environmental studies students on a short, fun field trip near Lancaster next Thursday (Nov 1). Do any of you know if there are any features related to mining, such as tailings piles, or mill pond sediments that contain sediment from upstream mining, and that are relatively accessible for a short hike? A scientist from Johns Hopkins, now at Univ of Pittsburgh, has worked on stream deposits in MD that contain sediments from historic chromium mines, and he uses the chromium in the sediments as a tracer to date the various historic sedimentary deposits. I'd like to find something comparable in Lancaster to show my students and this scientist, as he is visiting next week. Many thanks, Dorothy --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 25 16:52:29 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 25 17:19:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County References: <002b01c81754$acf861f0$b533449b@franklin614828> Message-ID: <47212AB7.3226@Tomaszewski.net> Dorothy, You have probably already thought of this, but putting Lancaster into the location search at www.mindat.org turns up 30 mines and quarries in the county. Perhaps being reminded of the 29 locations other than the Woods Chrome mine will help you find a site that meets your needs. Kreigh Dorothy Merritts wrote: > > Dear Rockhound folks: > > > > I am a geology professor at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, > and I am intrigued by the history of mining in Lancaster County. I saw a > reference to the Woods Chrome mine on the Rockhound list. I am looking for > a place to take 16 geology and environmental studies students on a short, > fun field trip near Lancaster next Thursday (Nov 1). Do any of you know if > there are any features related to mining, such as tailings piles, or mill > pond sediments that contain sediment from upstream mining, and that are > relatively accessible for a short hike? A scientist from Johns Hopkins, now > at Univ of Pittsburgh, has worked on stream deposits in MD that contain > sediments from historic chromium mines, and he uses the chromium in the > sediments as a tracer to date the various historic sedimentary deposits. > I'd like to find something comparable in Lancaster to show my students and > this scientist, as he is visiting next week. > Many thanks, > > Dorothy > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 25 17:02:01 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 25 17:19:31 2007 Subject: OT: Re: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (P.S.) References: <000a01c8152e$d0caf520$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D7FD7.4030606@verizon.net> <000b01c81537$17384f50$f59ad2cc@feldsparflash> <471D9648.7030406@verizon.net> <8C9E3ABB1EA0AFA-4B0-4609@MBLK-M18.sysops.aol.com> <471E2B6F.9070407@verizon.net> <8C9E3B894EA5144-F30-AE0@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BA31502140-F30-BBC@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <8C9E3BB2F6FBDFA-F30-C56@WEBMAIL-MB20.sysops.aol.com> <471E42D600001F2F@n120.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) <471EA56E.1F5C@Tomaszewski.net> <8C9E53FABF71930-8B4-37DC@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <47212CF2.5F87@Tomaszewski.net> Pete, You are having problems with non-breaking spaces being misinterperted by some software so that they display as question marks instead of blank spaces. It is a common bug. You can learn more about it by doing a google search on 'non breaking space causing question marks'. Kreigh pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > Just a P.S. about this--looking at the latest post I made to the List... > > The thing that drives me batty about this, is that these mystery question marks seem to appear without ANY logical reason as to why they should pop up where they are.? For example in my latest post to the list, I wrote (copying this from my sent mail file), > > We think, or assume, that?our observations are unambiguously correct... > > and in this line as I typed it there was no punctuation except for the two commas after "think" and "assume", and especially no punctuation or end-of-line or?ANYTHING after the word "that".? But when it appeared in my email from the listserv, it appeared as > > We think, or assume, that?our observations are unambiguously correct > > Why that little mystery question mark decided to appear after the word "that" is sure a mystery to me! > [Now of course, I've typed or pasted in these lines just now as I intend you to see them, who knows quite how they will look when the server relays them.] > > [I wonder perhaps if?this occurs when I have typed something, then have backed up and deleted or edited it, so that nothing unusual appears visually in my email as I send it, but there remains some residual format difference that registers to the programs that transfer it from email to listserv email.] > > Thanks to the several of you who tried of offer comments/suggestions as to why these things take place! > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kreigh Tomaszewski > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 8:03 pm > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] mystery question mark (was) lead-bearing Broken Hill orthoclase (P.S.) > > is a 'non-breaking space' that prevents a space character from > wrapping when the text is formatted. It is used to connect two words > with what appears to be a normal space so that they always appear > together on the same line. > > Kreigh > > Kitty & Bill Heacox wrote: > > > > You are not alone in the magical appearance of the mystery question > > mark. I've seen it in other people's email and even occasionally on > > the Web in---for example---captions for pictures. It seems that it > > appears after or during sending or posting, so there's no way you can > > catch it in proofreading. <. > is another mystery appearance too. > > > > Aloha, Kitty > > > > At 08:39 AM 10/23/2007, you wrote: > > >(P.S., a plague again upon the stupid aol email program from which I > > >am reading & writing my replies to the List, which keeps adding > > >those little question marks at times & places for no logical reason > > >that I can ever discern.? There is not supposed to be any question > > >mark by "plumboan" in that message I just posted.? Sorry.) > > From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 25 17:46:55 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 25 17:40:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? References: <4720CA3B.80900@verizon.net> <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <47213772.4D5D@Tomaszewski.net> How about something like... Mineral - A naturally occurring inorganic element or compound, or a naturally occurring organically derived element or compound that persists in nature outside of living organisms, having a periodically repeating arrangement of atoms and characteristic chemical composition, resulting in distintive physical properties. ...that would exclude most biochemicals because they decay and don't persist outside of living organisms without human intervention. Kreigh pmodreski@aol.com wrote: > > Of course, Don. > > But if we "officially" amended the definition of a mineral to simply be "any naturally occuring crystalline compound or element" which is what some would advocate,?then where/how do we stick in the caveat that we still want to exclude any crystalline forms of sugar, starch, cellulose, DNA, amino acids, proteins, or whatever else is strictly completely 100% biological? > > -----Original Message----- > From: DonH > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors > Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:54 am > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Mars minerals > > Pmodreski@aol.com wrote:? > > One example? > > that I give (though I'm not sure if this actually occurs or not) is if sugar > crystals formed in some fruit--for example, grapes drying and turning into > raisins, ? > That would be an absurd extreme. Sugar is a water-soluble organic molecule. The breakdown of the borders refers to things like apatites in teeth and bones. If someone needed your help and wanted to give you a grant to study the uptake of trace elements from drinking water in the hydroxylapatite tooth structure of children, would you turn it down because it is not an inorganic origin? I suppose you could, but then that provides more opportunity for a mineralogist who can think about the practical > ? > "For things are interesting, only in so far as they relate themselves to other things." -- D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson? > ? > Don? > ? From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Thu Oct 25 18:20:54 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Thu Oct 25 18:14:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement References: Message-ID: <47213F65.4B9@Tomaszewski.net> Andrew Turner wrote: > > There has always been this argument about whether human involvement can > create a valid mineral. One of the more ambiguous examples concerns the > Laurium, Greece deposits where many minerals (mainly secondary copper > minerals) form on slag material left from past mining operations. The slag > was obviously created by humans, but the minerals did form on them by > natural processes. In most cases, it has been concluded that these are > valid species and is one of the reasons why Laurium has so many unique > minerals. Most of the minerals discovered at Laurium could probably be formed naturally. Nature exposes an ore body, it erodes into a talus/scree, gets covered/infused with vegetation, gets ignited by lightning, and makes 'slag'. Nature goes on to make the minerals. Could happen. I think there is agreement that minerals need to form naturally. I also think there is general agreement that minerals need to form without human intervention; the IMA no longer accepts slag derived minerals because of the human involvement in their creation. I would not be suprised if the IMA did a review and discredited slag locations like Laurium as Type Localities. I suspect many minerals would also be discredited when a non-slag locality could not be identified as a new Type Locality. Kreigh From nospam at orerockon.com Thu Oct 25 19:49:12 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Thu Oct 25 19:49:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Fossil Point OR whale skull search & rescue mission In-Reply-To: <47141D87.5070401@verizon.net> References: <470DB604.7050001@verizon.net> <009c01c80c9c$7a253770$685fe842@Titans> <470F94D5.10706@verizon.net> <903fb671e4ae7812149cd9164623be4d@lrream.com> <47141D87.5070401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200710260249.l9Q2nII8003783@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Read all about it on my site. NARG rescued an as-yet-undescribed genus and species of fossil whale from Coos Bay, OR last week. You will be hearing more as the story develops :) http://orerockon.com/ore_rock.htm Click on the Whale Skull Search & Rescue link near the bottom of the page Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Fri Oct 26 01:37:11 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Oct 26 01:37:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + human involvement In-Reply-To: <47210BB0.7070901@verizon.net> References: <47210BB0.7070901@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000901c817ab$6731e9f0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> > > these are valid species and is one of the reasons why > Laurium has so > > many unique minerals. > Don H wrote > > Not any more though--the commission decided that no nwe slag > minerals would be named. A good decision imho, but what about water? Water isn't a mineral although it is a minerals substance that is very much part of the earth's outer shell. When it freezes it becomes ice which IS a valid mineral. There are 14 known solid phases of water. Two of them occur naturally and only one may be found as a mineral (being Ice Ih, Ice C is only stable below -75 C and had to be formed at even lower temperatures. It would transform into Ih immediately upon falling to the ground. Mercury is another story though! Temperatures of -38 C are suite common in artic regions. Now, if Hg was to be found there it would be solid and thus not the mineral Mercury. We would have to rename it, or wouldn't we? Cheers Axel From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Oct 26 05:53:02 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Oct 26 05:53:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Speaking of garnets... In-Reply-To: References: <4CFAD026-88DD-42AE-B427-8AA96C933E61@heidelberg.edu> <470F916B.4080102@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200710261253.l9QCr6kV007419@bubbleator.drizzle.com> I meant to reply to this eons ago, got a little caught up in whale skulls lol. Anyway the Cat Spur Creek lessees are undergoing permitting for a new operation (as you said, it could take years) so I assume they think there is something worth going after on the leased land. There is also exploration going on at the top of Bechtel Butte and is/was exploration happening up near the top of Hidden Creek. I had discussed an old book/guide with Lanny that I borrowed from the UI library when I was there 20 years ago (yikes!) that had tens of locations in the St. Maries area for star garnets. He hadn't read it, I didn't recall the name or the author, but it had a whole host of spots that were popular digging sites before the FS took ownership of the private timberland in the area. I still don't know what the publication was but I didn't dream up the sites we visited when I was in school there. Most were so "gone" that I really doubted the directions but I was told that they were abandoned when the FS took ownership. The Mt Hood rock club has had experience with trying to get a mineral lease on acquired lands; you might as well throw money into a bag and sink it in the ocean for all the good it is going to do you trying to get a lease for recreational rockhounding. It simply can't be done. Now, mention a commercial operation with a big pit and lots of equipment, and they see $$$ from the royalties and try everything they can do to make it happen (not fast though, more like glacial speed). Yeah, I know it's bizarre. Who ever said that government makes any sense? Tommy Handley had an interest in a claim on the S side of the North Fork Clearwater canyon about 10 years ago (my recollection is fuzzy but I think it was near Aquarius) that produced occasional 4 ray stars (along with lots of the "silk" or chatoyant variety and small less included faceting grade material) and knew people up there that had claims on the N side of the Little Clearwater near the St Joe divide (I am thinking they were near Blackdome Peak) that also had produced 4 and rarely 6 ray stars. So these may be the "main fork" crystals you were told about (all miners lie, right?). At 03:55 PM 10/15/2007, you wrote: >Can't help it, I have to jump in here. Someone has been providing >Don with incorrect information. > >The star garnets occur over a large area (an area of 35-40 square >miles) of which Emerald Creek is only the largest deposit and the >most known. There are also star garnets on Purdue Creek near Bovill, >about 8 miles to the south, and in a few small drainages between >these two areas. There is (maybe was) an abundance of them in a >small area off Cat's Spur Creek, about 3 miles south of Clarkia >(about 7 miles SE of the main area on Emerald Creek, an incredible >deposit with interesting stories). There also are star garnets on >Bechtel Butte off the SE corner of the Emerald Creek area. > >To the east, there are some on tributaries of Glover Creek and >Floodwood Creek and other drainages (in the region southerly of >Freezeout Mountain). I was told that some of the crystals mined >further south on the main fork of the Clearwater River also produced stars. > >Actually, the garnets are not scarce, they are easy to find at rock >shows in the northwest. Also, they were abundant as sharp crystals, >and still fairly easy to obtain as sharp crystals. I've heard >various statements of the percentage that were stars from the >Emerald Creek area that ranged from about half to more than three >fourths and this included the various crystal types (rounded, sharp, >surface patterned, etc.). From the Cat's Spur Creek deposit all the >crystals produce stars. > >I would also like to correct (again) this ridiculous story that the >Forest Service continues to tell, that they only occur in Emerald >Creek and India. They also occur in the Sloan Creek area of >Snohomish County, Washington. This seems to be a difficult piece of >misinformation that I couldn't even purge from the system when I >worked for them! > > An interesting bit of information is that nearly all the garnet > locations (star garnet and those that are facet quality) in the > region, at least all of those well known to the rockhound > community, are on National Forest acquired lands. Acquired lands > (by statute) are not open to mineral entry, thus it is illegal to > go out and dig garnets without a permit on these lands. > >I'm contacting Pete off the list to offer the samples he requests. > >Regards, > >Lanny Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Fri Oct 26 08:03:44 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Fri Oct 26 08:03:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <000901c817ab$6731e9f0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Hello All, I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on display yesterday. Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more information than that? Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our museum and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected in some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do YOU feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your own personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus overwhelming the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? Thanks for any help you can provide... Cheers- Earl Verbeek From albalmer at att.net Fri Oct 26 09:15:50 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Fri Oct 26 09:15:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + ... Jade In-Reply-To: <8C9E5520BCAB38C-8B4-4228@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8C9E5402A1E3EE2-8B4-3813@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> <000401c81730$01019890$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <6cp1i3p5gh8ec2l96qeqeco87s0h3hjdrh@4ax.com> <8C9E5520BCAB38C-8B4-4228@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:11:57 -0400, pmodreski@aol.com wrote: >Well, when someone is studying or writing/talking about some earth materials, it sure does help if the terminology they are using means the same to everyone!? We do get problems as to exactly what different people are referring to, when they start talking about such things as sunstone or moonstone or semi-opal (some of those confusions have appeared on this listserv). As often happens, I didn't make myself clear. I understand the need for precise identification of minerals, but is there really a need to define the boundaries of the science so sharply? It seems to me that the fuzzy edges we're discussing here are always going to exist, no matter how we try to refine the definitions. > >Along the lines of which, this reminds me that I recently read in a discussion (not on Rockhounds I don't think, somewhere else) about semantics problems about what is "jade".? I have always used the terminology that there are two different minerals which can be called "jade", nephrite jade (nephrite being a variety of tremolite-actinolite amphibole) and jadeite (it being a separate mineral in the pyroxene family, NaAlSi2O6).? I was surprised to recently read that some gemological "purists" are now taking the position that only jadeite is TRUE jade, and that they would like to refer to the other always as "nephrite jade".? (Personally, I still think they are both "jade"!) > >Pete > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Al Balmer >To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors >Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:53 pm >Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? + Marsminerals > > > >On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 13:53:47 -0400, "Earl R. Verbeek" > wrote: > >>I realize that these things conform neither to the scientific nor >>(sometimes) the legal definition of "mineral", but that's how I think about >>them. It's just a practical consideration that influences what I collect >>and what I don't. > >You bring up another question. What's in a name? Obviously, you can >study whatever subset of the universe you like. It may be convenient >to have an accepted label to discuss it with other people, but how >important is it that the boundaries of that label be precisely >defined? > -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Fri Oct 26 09:31:48 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Fri Oct 26 09:31:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What Is A Mineral? + ... Jade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c817ed$b52380f0$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Al Balmer wrote: I understand the need for precise identification of minerals, but is there really a need to define the boundaries of the science so sharply? It seems to me that the fuzzy edges we're discussing here are always going to exist, no matter how we try to refine the definitions. ---------------------------------- You're correct, Al, those fuzzy edges probably always will exist -- and should, I believe. The normal boundaries of mineralogy as a science are pretty well known, but you'll sometimes find mineralogists studying soils or ceramic materials, or abrasives in toothpaste, or mud scraped from the wheel wells of cars, in part to help other people and in part just to feed their own curiosity. Numerous other disciplines have use for the skill sets that mineralogists bring to the table (e.g., in criminal forensics, as in my "wheel well" example above), and the converse is true as well. A moderate degree of cross-pollination among scientific disciplines is a good thing. Drawing rigid boundaries prevents such cross-pollination, to the detriment of all. It also makes us "turfy", which is never pretty to witness. Cheers- Earl Verbeek --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Fri Oct 26 09:59:21 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Fri Oct 26 09:59:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> References: <000901c817ab$6731e9f0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <006301c817f1$8e3479a0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hello Earl, I would split the information into two levels. 1) the label in fluorescent ink on black material 2) a small data card in fluorescent ink on black material. I would put only the basics on the label. For example: Mineral, specimenID like "Calcite CAL12788" Then I would cluster 5 to 6 specimens around one card or around a label with the clusterID (if you want the card outside the display). ID the cluster in the database and assign specimens to it. So you can automate the data card printing/listing. The card would list the complete data like this: -cluster ID (and drawing of the specimens position). -SpecimenID -Mine/quarry/locality, nearest town, county, state/province, Country -Activator/primer/fluorescent agent if known -Specific data (habit, phantoms, inclusions, mylonitized, scepter, ....) Of less importance -formula -Strunz or Dana or general class. (Carbonate, silicate...) -Ex-collection (if of any importance) This compacts the display because you can use small labels. It is also democratic: those who don't care aren't bothered by the information. Those who want it all can find the data and read it at their own pace. Placing the data outside the case makes for easier reading, otherwise you'd have to place rather big labels in the display with rather big print. I learned that UV fades fluorescent inks over a few years. The data cards can be put in a frame with a couple of 385nm UV-LEDs. They will be easy to read without competing with the brightness of the display. Voila, my 1.3899 Eurocents at the current exchange rates. Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Earl R. Verbeek > Verzonden: vrijdag 26 oktober 2007 16:04 > Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? > > > Hello All, > > I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject > that repeatedly arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining > Museum. Here's an excerpt from a conversation this morning > -- one of many just like this: > > Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we > placed on display yesterday. > Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we > have any more information than that? > Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > > Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- > collectively we are not exactly representative of John Q. > Public who walks into our museum and views what we've got on > display. However, many of you ARE connected in some way with > displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some > experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much > information do YOU feel is appropriate to include in a public > display of mineral specimens? > > In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you > think the visiting public wants (or should have), as > distinct, perhaps, from your own personal preferences as a > mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between diluting > information so much that it's almost worthless, versus > overwhelming the public with details and turning them off? > Just what IS the reality these days? Do people read labels? > Do they care? > > Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From jerrybs at frii.com Fri Oct 26 10:17:10 2007 From: jerrybs at frii.com (jerrybs@frii.com) Date: Fri Oct 26 10:17:13 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps Message-ID: <2521.198.145.218.158.1193419030.squirrel@users.frii.com> Will the 120/220 ungraded grit wear out an aluminum pan on a vibro lap? Jerry WA From everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org Fri Oct 26 10:40:58 2007 From: everbeek at sterlinghillminingmuseum.org (Earl R. Verbeek) Date: Fri Oct 26 10:40:56 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <006301c817f1$8e3479a0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: <000001c817f7$61118c00$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Thanks, Axel, Interesting suggestions -- I'll definitely give this some thought. I should add that my question did not pertain to fluorescent minerals -- more to daylight displays -- though I didn't specify that, did I? In any event we have quite a few mineral specimens in daylight displays in our main exhibit hall in the Sterling Hill Mining Museum, and that's what I was thinking about when asking my questions. In some of our displays there is only one large mineral specimen (e.g. a group of gypsum fishtail twins nearly a meter across), so having a large label is OK. In most displays, however, the specimens are of "cabinet" size. Think of the displays you've seen in many museums -- a systematic display of worldwide minerals arranged according to the Dana or Strunz systems. In most displays the specimens are individually labeled. But how much information is too much, and how much too little, for modern museum visitors? Cheers- Earl -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Axel Emmermann Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:59 PM To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? Hello Earl, I would split the information into two levels. 1) the label in fluorescent ink on black material 2) a small data card in fluorescent ink on black material. I would put only the basics on the label. For example: Mineral, specimenID like "Calcite CAL12788" Then I would cluster 5 to 6 specimens around one card or around a label with the clusterID (if you want the card outside the display). ID the cluster in the database and assign specimens to it. So you can automate the data card printing/listing. The card would list the complete data like this: -cluster ID (and drawing of the specimens position). -SpecimenID -Mine/quarry/locality, nearest town, county, state/province, Country -Activator/primer/fluorescent agent if known -Specific data (habit, phantoms, inclusions, mylonitized, scepter, ....) Of less importance -formula -Strunz or Dana or general class. (Carbonate, silicate...) -Ex-collection (if of any importance) This compacts the display because you can use small labels. It is also democratic: those who don't care aren't bothered by the information. Those who want it all can find the data and read it at their own pace. Placing the data outside the case makes for easier reading, otherwise you'd have to place rather big labels in the display with rather big print. I learned that UV fades fluorescent inks over a few years. The data cards can be put in a frame with a couple of 385nm UV-LEDs. They will be easy to read without competing with the brightness of the display. Voila, my 1.3899 Eurocents at the current exchange rates. Cheers Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Earl R. Verbeek > Verzonden: vrijdag 26 oktober 2007 16:04 > Aan: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? > > > Hello All, > > I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject > that repeatedly arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining > Museum. Here's an excerpt from a conversation this morning > -- one of many just like this: > > Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we > placed on display yesterday. > Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we > have any more information than that? > Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > > Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- > collectively we are not exactly representative of John Q. > Public who walks into our museum and views what we've got on > display. However, many of you ARE connected in some way with > displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some > experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much > information do YOU feel is appropriate to include in a public > display of mineral specimens? > > In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you > think the visiting public wants (or should have), as > distinct, perhaps, from your own personal preferences as a > mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between diluting > information so much that it's almost worthless, versus > overwhelming the public with details and turning them off? > Just what IS the reality these days? Do people read labels? > Do they care? > > Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From marksigouin at verizon.net Fri Oct 26 12:35:24 2007 From: marksigouin at verizon.net (Mark Sigouin) Date: Fri Oct 26 12:35:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County Message-ID: <31579752.2809941193427325044.JavaMail.root@vms069.mailsrvcs.net> I was educated as a Geologist at Millersville in the 1970???. I am now practice hydrogeology for the Commonwealth of PA. I too have been fascinated on and off with the old mining in the Lancaster Area. I like Serpentine in general. I have found many specimens of chormite in hand lens size in the serpentine in general. There are Spoils Piles and an open hole at the Wood Mine site. I was there at a Field Conference about 20 years ago. I didn???t collect. The Central Pennsylvania Rock and Mineral Club also go there from time to time. I???ve seen pictures, but have not had the chance to attend. I was by late this summer doing some sampling, and the road leading into the farm says Wood on it. I think the mailbox too. It doesn???t sound that they are negative to visitors. Near by is Nottingham County Park, Chester County. There once was a chromite processing plant owned by the same person that owned the Wood Mine. There is the foundation of a mine where they ground the serpentine to sand and then used a flume to sleuth the chromite crystals. Which fell to the bottom. The Boy Scout camps have serpentine outcrops all over the place. On the road between the Boy Scout Camp and the two big quarries is an occurrence of metabasalt with really good exposures along a stream near a small trailer park. Penn Mar Quarry might let you in. They mine serpentine there. The Lancaster Land Conservatory owns an area underlain by serpentine called Rock Spring. They may own the Line Mine, but maybe not. It is on the same road as the quarry, but on the west side of Rte 272. They have stripped the vegetation as they are trying to promote regrowth as a Barren. There is a mine / quarry on the northern fork of Black Baron Road west of Rte 272. It is on the north side of the road. There are no trespassing signs. You???d have to ask the farmers who owns it. The area is a classic barren. Well good luck. Mark Sigouin >From: Dorothy Merritts >Date: 2007/10/25 Thu PM 05:16:22 CDT >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County >Dear Rockhound folks: > > > >I am a geology professor at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, >and I am intrigued by the history of mining in Lancaster County. I saw a >reference to the Woods Chrome mine on the Rockhound list. I am looking for >a place to take 16 geology and environmental studies students on a short, >fun field trip near Lancaster next Thursday (Nov 1). Do any of you know if >there are any features related to mining, such as tailings piles, or mill >pond sediments that contain sediment from upstream mining, and that are >relatively accessible for a short hike? A scientist from Johns Hopkins, now >at Univ of Pittsburgh, has worked on stream deposits in MD that contain >sediments from historic chromium mines, and he uses the chromium in the >sediments as a tracer to date the various historic sedimentary deposits. >I'd like to find something comparable in Lancaster to show my students and >this scientist, as he is visiting next week. >Many thanks, > > >Dorothy > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Fri Oct 26 09:02:47 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Fri Oct 26 13:00:38 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral?+Marsminerals References: <004b01c8171f$c9f8a600$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <8C9E53D25EFCE83-8B4-3674@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <000301c8180a$dc8e44f0$5650d0c4@federatiydq01o> Talking about disagreements - I know this one may not go down well with som people. If two "geologists" agree on a certain matter, you can bet your bottom dollar that one is not a geologist! Getting back to this interesting discussion, even if the IMA does not recognize "slag minerals" as minerals, I do collect them as a seperate collection. At present I have 4903 mounted minerals in my slag micromount mineral collection. Some years back, I ran the Internationasl Association of Collectors of Slag Minerals. Quarterly Newsletters were published for nine years, but then the interest started waning and I discontinued. Horst Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral?+Marsminerals > > Science would be dull indeed if there were no disagreements or questions! > > > > Looking at this philosophically, part of it comes down to the difference > between "data" (or observations) and "interpretations". > > > > We think, or assume, that?our observations are unambiguously correct and > are "facts", and that it's just the interpretations drawn from them that > are subject to question and revision. > > > > But of course, as new knowledge comes to light, we?sometimes find?that > what we thought were clear-cut observations, can be refined to yield > different data--from more precise measurements, new techniques, and just > recognition of new things to look for. > > > > Comparably, some interpretations are so well-grounded in observations that > we think of them as being "truths", unambiguous facts, and we sometimes > even lose track of the fact that they are still interpretations and > perhaps subject to change if new data emerge; the law of gravity, the > speed of light...? and we sometimes have trouble convincing some people of > the correctness of things which we believe to be demonstrated > "facts"--evolution, the age of the earth and of the universe, etc.... > especially when those people have a personally vested interest in > believing otherwise*. > > (* dare I add to this little list... global warming?) > > Yes, we'll get back to work now. > > Pete > > -----Original Message----- > From: Axel Emmermann > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors' > > Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 9:57 am > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A Mineral? > +Marsminerals > > > > > Yes Pete, you may be right... Or not... > As you say, clarification is underway ;-))) > >> A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these >> meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have >> just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or >> still think they do. > > Well, I actually have been talking to the man who investigated ALH 84001. > He's a respected scientist and I don't doubt his capabilties for a second. > On the other hand, even Einstein made a mistake... Yeah, anything's > possible. > > OK, gottogo back to woooooooooooooork... > > Cheers > Axel > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Pmodreski@aol.com >> Verzonden: donderdag 25 oktober 2007 15:56 >> Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >> Onderwerp: Re: [Rockhounds] Re: Organic/Inorganic: What Is A >> Mineral? +Marsminerals >> >> Ah, sorry, Axel, but I still totally disagree; there is >> absolutely NO convincing evidence that magnetite crystals in >> a Mars meteorite have ANY characteristics that imply biogenic >> origin. Any imaginable kind of magnetite crystal can just >> as well form inorganically (ask any micromineral collector). >> A few scientists think they see biogenic imprint in these >> meteoritic crystals; most, I'm afraid, do not--you may have >> just been talking to one of the few advocates who thought or >> still think they do. People get very enamored of their own >> pet hypotheses, and they tend to hold on to them in spite of >> evidence to the contrary or of lack of evidence supporting them. >> >> Just my two cents about this. All will be clarified and time >> goes on and science continues to progress, of course. >> >> Pete >> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.8/1088 - Release Date: > 23/10/2007 13:26 > > From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Fri Oct 26 09:39:20 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Fri Oct 26 13:00:47 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS References: <20071009022346.SIKR14884.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> Message-ID: <000801c8180a$e2a801a0$5650d0c4@federatiydq01o> Hi all, Many thanks to all those that replied to my request about miner's lamps. My friend was able to look at all the replies on my PC the day before he flew back to Germany and I'm sure he will follow up some of the contacts given. Horst ----- Original Message ----- From: "dzrtgrls" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:24 AM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS > Hi Horst, > > http://www.lamp-tramp.com/ - This link may be helpful. You might try > contacting the website owner for more info. Check out the links section > too. Good luck! > > Niki > www.dzrtgrls.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Horst Windisch > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:23 AM > To: rockhounds > Subject: [Rockhounds] MINER's LAMPS > > Hi everyone, > > At the moment I have a mineral collector friend from Gerrmany visiting me > for three days. In addition to being interested in mineral collecting, he > is > also an avid collector of miner's lamps (oil, carbide and safethy). He has > a > collection 110 lamps, mainly Friemann and Wolff lamps. > > He is keen to find out if there is an organisation/Club? Society in the > USA > whose objective is the collection/restoration of miner's lamps. Any help > would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Horst > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > __________ NOD32 2577 (20071008) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.4/1057 - Release Date: > 08/10/2007 09:04 > > From dorothy.merritts at fandm.edu Fri Oct 26 13:19:12 2007 From: dorothy.merritts at fandm.edu (Dorothy Merritts) Date: Fri Oct 26 13:19:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County In-Reply-To: <31579752.2809941193427325044.JavaMail.root@vms069.mailsrvcs.net> References: <31579752.2809941193427325044.JavaMail.root@vms069.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <00cf01c8180d$79071d50$b533449b@franklin614828> Thanks to all of you who are providing excellent information on my question regarding historic chromite mines in Lancaster County. The information is very helpful. Cheers, Dorothy -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sigouin Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 3:35 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County I was educated as a Geologist at Millersville in the 1970???. I am now practice hydrogeology for the Commonwealth of PA. I too have been fascinated on and off with the old mining in the Lancaster Area. I like Serpentine in general. I have found many specimens of chormite in hand lens size in the serpentine in general. There are Spoils Piles and an open hole at the Wood Mine site. I was there at a Field Conference about 20 years ago. I didn???t collect. The Central Pennsylvania Rock and Mineral Club also go there from time to time. I???ve seen pictures, but have not had the chance to attend. I was by late this summer doing some sampling, and the road leading into the farm says Wood on it. I think the mailbox too. It doesn???t sound that they are negative to visitors. Near by is Nottingham County Park, Chester County. There once was a chromite processing plant owned by the same person that owned the Wood Mine. There is the foundation of a mine where they ground the serpentine to sand and then used a flume to sleuth the chromite crystals. Which fell to the bottom. The Boy Scout camps have serpentine outcrops all over the place. On the road between the Boy Scout Camp and the two big quarries is an occurrence of metabasalt with really good exposures along a stream near a small trailer park. Penn Mar Quarry might let you in. They mine serpentine there. The Lancaster Land Conservatory owns an area underlain by serpentine called Rock Spring. They may own the Line Mine, but maybe not. It is on the same road as the quarry, but on the west side of Rte 272. They have stripped the vegetation as they are trying to promote regrowth as a Barren. There is a mine / quarry on the northern fork of Black Baron Road west of Rte 272. It is on the north side of the road. There are no trespassing signs. You???d have to ask the farmers who owns it. The area is a classic barren. Well good luck. Mark Sigouin >From: Dorothy Merritts >Date: 2007/10/25 Thu PM 05:16:22 CDT >To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com >Subject: [Rockhounds] chromium and other mining in Lancaster County >Dear Rockhound folks: > > > >I am a geology professor at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, >and I am intrigued by the history of mining in Lancaster County. I saw a >reference to the Woods Chrome mine on the Rockhound list. I am looking for >a place to take 16 geology and environmental studies students on a short, >fun field trip near Lancaster next Thursday (Nov 1). Do any of you know if >there are any features related to mining, such as tailings piles, or mill >pond sediments that contain sediment from upstream mining, and that are >relatively accessible for a short hike? A scientist from Johns Hopkins, now >at Univ of Pittsburgh, has worked on stream deposits in MD that contain >sediments from historic chromium mines, and he uses the chromium in the >sediments as a tracer to date the various historic sedimentary deposits. >I'd like to find something comparable in Lancaster to show my students and >this scientist, as he is visiting next week. >Many thanks, > > >Dorothy > > > > > >--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html >--- >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From teyancey at suddenlink.net Fri Oct 26 15:08:08 2007 From: teyancey at suddenlink.net (Thomas Yancey) Date: Fri Oct 26 15:10:26 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: Earl, I have put together some displays and have acquired some sense of what viewers like to see in the matter of labels. Most viewers don't care about locality information, but there is a good minority of people that appreciate good locality data on the displayed material. For the majority, a label that gives a name for the specimen is all they need or want. Thus, a label with the mineral name is optimum. But for the minority who are more interested, a good locality designation is needed. It is a great help in learning about occurrence and knowing more about the source of specimens. For these people, a label that just says 'Mexico' is a dis-service and a limitation on learning. They need more detailed locality information. The minority is the group that you want to cultivate and their interest requires that you put out specimens that are more informative. If a specimen is especially pretty and eye-appealing and has no provenance, then it should be put out as a decorative item. Simply put the name of the mineral on a label and disregard the locality line. In fact, use a plain label that has only the mineral name; nothing else. However, if you can find a specimen of similar quality that has locality data, then that should be used for a display. If decorative function is the primary focus, then no locality citation is better than limited locality citation. Tom Yancey >Hello All, > >I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly >arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a >conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: > >Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on >display yesterday. >Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more >information than that? >Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > >Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we >are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our museum >and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected in >some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some >experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do YOU >feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? > >In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the >visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your own >personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between >diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus overwhelming >the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality >these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? > >Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek -- Thomas Yancey From folmstead at rcn.com Fri Oct 26 15:51:53 2007 From: folmstead at rcn.com (Frederick Olmstead) Date: Fri Oct 26 15:52:09 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <47226F89.9050704@rcn.com> OH! OUCH! Labels if any if any information with ONLY "Mexico" - - - - such as Person B below YES we collectors care!!!! If the public "does not care" they could be, at least, educated..... into caring. Loved the old Denver airport. While walking past a corner shop that had many large nice bookends made of some "rocks" ( "It's only a "rock" without a label." ) I "remarked" / "complained" to my husband - its too bad they never say where they are from. A lady passing nearby remarked "They fall from the sky." GeorgiaO __..--..__..--..__ Earl R. Verbeek wrote: >Hello All, > >I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly >arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a >conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: > >Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on >display yesterday. >Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more >information than that? >Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > >Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we >are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our museum >and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected in >some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some >experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do YOU >feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? > >In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the >visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your own >personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between >diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus overwhelming >the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality >these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? > >Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > > > From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Fri Oct 26 18:34:00 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Fri Oct 26 18:33:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <006801c81839$7356f3e0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> I would agree with Tom for the most part. Most visitors do not care about locality info. However, a mineral museum should have standards a tad bit higher than a general natural history museum. A somewhat higher percentage of visitors at the mineral museum are specifically interested in minerals. Therefore, they are going to be more likely to want (or at least appreciate) more information. At our museum, the bulk of the fossils on exhibit are from the park or the local area, so we focus more on species identification and geologic period rather than location. However, if we were to display Devonian corals from Michigan, Iowa or Nevada, the labels would indicate such. The Clement Mineral Museum is fairly weak in the label department. Most of the minerals are from southern Illinois mines. Those from Kentucky are labeled as such, as well as specimens from other states (like Joplin area calcite and sphalerite) and the fluorescent display of Franklin minerals. I wish more specimens were identified by the mine location, but unfortunately only a small portion are. Some specimens seem fairly obvious (strontianite and benstonite from the Minerva No. 1 or fluorite from the Hill-Ledford mines, but most are unknown and a large number may never be pegged to a specific mine. Do most visitors care? Probably not. Me? Take a guess... One suggestion I would make is, if a particularly interesting specimen lacks locality data, encourage the visitor to provide information. I suspect that over time, a mineral collector will have a similar specimen in their collection and can provide the data. When I was at the Sonora Desert Museum a few years ago, I noticed a mis-identified fossil brachiopod. The curator was nowhere to be found, so I wrote the info in their visitor register book. A couple of years ago at a national museum conference, I ran into a curator from that museum and told her what I had done. She was going to try to dig up the book and correct the error. You can also post a photo on mindat on the mineral identity forum. Since there are hundreds of avid collectors who use that resource regularly, someone will probably be able to help! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl R. Verbeek" To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 11:03 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? > > Hello All, > > I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly > arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a > conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: > > Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on > display yesterday. > Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more > information than that? > Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > > Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we > are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our museum > and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected > in > some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have > some > experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do > YOU > feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? > > In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the > visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your > own > personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance > between > diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus > overwhelming > the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality > these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? > > Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From nospam at orerockon.com Fri Oct 26 19:09:18 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Fri Oct 26 19:09:37 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps In-Reply-To: <2521.198.145.218.158.1193419030.squirrel@users.frii.com> References: <2521.198.145.218.158.1193419030.squirrel@users.frii.com> Message-ID: <200710270209.l9R29ZSo007726@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Not that I've ever heard, in the short term. In the long term all lap pans wear out, but aluminum is soft so the silicon carbide grit tends to cut the rock and not the pan. At 10:17 AM 10/26/2007, you wrote: >Will the 120/220 ungraded grit wear out an aluminum pan on a vibro lap? > >Jerry >WA Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From kahako at hawaiiantel.net Fri Oct 26 19:41:10 2007 From: kahako at hawaiiantel.net (Kitty & Bill Heacox) Date: Fri Oct 26 19:42:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> References: <000901c817ab$6731e9f0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <472242CB0000EFD2@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added by postmaster@bouncemessage.net) Hi Earl, In a very unscientific survey of people who have seen our collection at our home, and the school kids I take part of our collection to, the first question is "What is that one?" if there is not a visible label (many of ours are underneath the specimen) and the next one is "Where did that come from?" For the most part these are not collectors or rockhounds, and often they are perfectly happy with "Arizona," or "Tasmania" although "Mexico" or "Canada" will sometimes produce a follow-up question to pin it down better. Most do not want to know great detail, like the name of the mine. The next question is almost always, "Did you collect that yourself, or buy it?" which would not apply to a museum display, of course. Then after that people ask questions like, "Is it rare?" "Is it valuable?" and (in the case of fluorescents) "What makes them glow?" I've also seen families going through the Lyman museum here in Hilo, and parents seem to like looking at a label on a specimen and saying to their kids, "Look, there's a rock that came all the way from Japan!" or, "That one's from California, where Nana lives." Hope this helps. Aloha, Kitty At 05:03 AM 10/26/2007, you wrote: >Hello All, > >I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly >arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a >conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: > >Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on >display yesterday. >Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more >information than that? >Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > >Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we >are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our museum >and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected in >some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some >experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do YOU >feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? > >In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the >visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your own >personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between >diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus overwhelming >the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality >these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? > >Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Fri Oct 26 21:42:44 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Fri Oct 26 21:39:10 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <4722C0DD.3A61@Tomaszewski.net> Earl, My old Club used to exhibit at our local Museum as the monthly visiting display every Spring. The Museum's guidelines asked us to identify each specimen with the mineral name, and an accurate locality that did not exceed two lines. The Museum provided a typewriter that was to be used for all labels so they were standardized. Before I joined my current Club (but after my old Club died) I was asked by the Museum to be 'R is for Rocks and Minerals' in a special exhibit for the opening of their new building. I elected to label each specimen I displayed with the mineral name, the chemical formula, and a locality that was as accurate as I could provide. I was asked five common questions... Did you collect it yourself? How rare is it? May I pick it up and look at it? What is it used for? That specimen contains , is it dangerous? My personal collection is mostly labeled with the mineral name, a locality that is as accurate as I can provide, and a reference number to my catalog. A few labels note 'rare', 'radioactive', 'fragile/don't touch', or 'toxic' to reduce handling. BTW, I usually use existing labels for acquired specimens (sometimes with a note), and only make new labels for personally collected specimens. I would like to re-label my collection to include mineral name, formula, and locality. What is it, and where did it come from, are the key questions. What is in it is key information to those that may handle it, and opens the discussion (and provides me a reminder) for those visitors that want to know more. Hope this helps. Kreigh Earl R. Verbeek wrote: > > Hello All, > > I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly > arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a > conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: > > Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on > display yesterday. > Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more > information than that? > Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. > > Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we > are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our museum > and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected in > some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have some > experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do YOU > feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? > > In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the > visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your own > personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance between > diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus overwhelming > the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality > these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? > > Thanks for any help you can provide... > > Cheers- Earl Verbeek > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sat Oct 27 05:18:30 2007 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 27 05:18:40 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps Message-ID: In a message dated 10/26/2007 10:10:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nospam@orerockon.com writes: but aluminum is soft so the silicon carbide grit tends to cut the rock and not the pan. Not doubting you, at all, Tim, but shouldn't the reverse of that statement be true..at least from a logic standpoint? I am sure you are right, but just had to chime in.. Jeff ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From nospam at orerockon.com Sat Oct 27 05:35:06 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sat Oct 27 05:35:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200710271235.l9RCZQib014488@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Try to sand something soft with a silicon carbide sanding disk (e.g., calcite). It polishes rather than sands. It is very sharp, thus it will tend to "stick" to the aluminum pan and sand the rock vs. the opposite. If it easily abraded aluminum or cast iron, then vibrating laps as a concept would be a bust. At 05:18 AM 10/27/2007, you wrote: > >In a message dated 10/26/2007 10:10:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >nospam@orerockon.com writes: > >but aluminum is soft so the silicon carbide grit tends >to cut the rock and not the pan. > > > > >Not doubting you, at all, Tim, but shouldn't the reverse of that statement >be true..at least from a logic standpoint? I am sure you are right, but just >had to chime in.. > >Jeff Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From BNMJEFF at aol.com Sat Oct 27 07:36:57 2007 From: BNMJEFF at aol.com (BNMJEFF@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 27 07:37:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps Message-ID: So the grit "imbeds" itself in the aluminum to cut the rock? Interesting..makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. Jeff Ursillo Chain of Events Unique cabochons _www.chainofevents.esty.com_ (http://www.chainofevents.esty.com/) ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From horstwindisch at absamail.co.za Sat Oct 27 04:30:01 2007 From: horstwindisch at absamail.co.za (Horst Windisch) Date: Sat Oct 27 07:48:05 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <4722C0DD.3A61@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000001c818a8$5d15c7e0$0f4cd0c4@federatiydq01o> Hi Kreigh and everybody else taking part in this discussion, To my way of thinking, the chemical formula creates too much of a "space " problem omn a label. (in some cases the label will "overshadow" the specimen). Chemical formulas can easily be checked by referring to Fleischer's GLOSSARY (or any other reputable handbook which mentions these chemical formulas)- The museum where I work as a volunteer (Couuncil for Geoscience Museum in Pretoria, South Africa) basically uses the name of the mineral and then the locality (as far as is known). In some cases, we only know that the specimen comes from Mexico, thus only "MEXICO" appears on the label. On the other hand, if this particular specimen was found on Level 28 of the Tsumeb mine in Namibia, the label will only read "Tsumeb, NAMIBIA". The additional information can be gleaned from the old catalogue cards or from the data base.(upon request) Each mineral specimen on display has its own catalogue number "MGS 23456" etc ("MGS" standing for "Museum of the Geological Survey"; the Geological Survey has been superseded by the Council for Geoscience). To my mind, the general public is firstly interested in the name of the mineral and secondly in the locality. To the serious mineral collector, a mineral specimen without a label containg the locality is of very little value or use. Most Museum collections I have seen, mention the name of thge mineral and as far as the locality is concerned, the wording starts off with the smallest element (e.g. mine or town), progressing to the larger elements (e.g. town, province and finally country). Another side issue on this subject is should the name of the locality be changed when a country or town undergoes a name change? This matter was discussed at some length in this forum some way back. A move started by some sand collectors in Germany, is to state the locality in the reverse direction from above. Thus they start off with country, then province, then town, then mine etc. The name of the country is taken from ISO 3166 This method is very useful as far as exchange lists of collectors are concerned. One does not have to wade through a long list if one is interested in minerals from a specific country. On the other hand, listing all your "Mimetite" exchange material together, simplifies the looking for a particular mineral. Thus both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.- Horst- -- Original Message ----- From: "Kreigh Tomaszewski" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:42 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? > Earl, > > My old Club used to exhibit at our local Museum as the monthly visiting > display every Spring. The Museum's guidelines asked us to identify each > specimen with the mineral name, and an accurate locality that did not > exceed two lines. The Museum provided a typewriter that was to be used > for all labels so they were standardized. > > Before I joined my current Club (but after my old Club died) I was asked > by the Museum to be 'R is for Rocks and Minerals' in a special exhibit > for the opening of their new building. I elected to label each specimen > I displayed with the mineral name, the chemical formula, and a locality > that was as accurate as I could provide. I was asked five common > questions... > > Did you collect it yourself? > How rare is it? > May I pick it up and look at it? > What is it used for? > That specimen contains , is it dangerous? > > My personal collection is mostly labeled with the mineral name, a > locality that is as accurate as I can provide, and a reference number to > my catalog. A few labels note 'rare', 'radioactive', 'fragile/don't > touch', or 'toxic' to reduce handling. BTW, I usually use existing > labels for acquired specimens (sometimes with a note), and only make new > labels for personally collected specimens. > > I would like to re-label my collection to include mineral name, formula, > and locality. What is it, and where did it come from, are the key > questions. What is in it is key information to those that may handle it, > and opens the discussion (and provides me a reminder) for those visitors > that want to know more. > > Hope this helps. > > Kreigh > > > > > > Earl R. Verbeek wrote: >> >> Hello All, >> >> I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly >> arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a >> conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: >> >> Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on >> display yesterday. >> Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more >> information than that? >> Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. >> >> Now, I realize that I'm talking to a select group here -- collectively we >> are not exactly representative of John Q. Public who walks into our >> museum >> and views what we've got on display. However, many of you ARE connected >> in >> some way with displays at mineral shows, in museums, etc., and so have >> some >> experience with labeling needs. So I will ask: How much information do >> YOU >> feel is appropriate to include in a public display of mineral specimens? >> >> In thinking about your answer, please try to assess what you think the >> visiting public wants (or should have), as distinct, perhaps, from your >> own >> personal preferences as a mineral enthusiast. Where is the balance >> between >> diluting information so much that it's almost worthless, versus >> overwhelming >> the public with details and turning them off? Just what IS the reality >> these days? Do people read labels? Do they care? >> >> Thanks for any help you can provide... >> >> Cheers- Earl Verbeek >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >> Subscription Services: >> http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >> List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >> http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1095 - Release Date: > 26/10/2007 19:54 > > From mineral.maertens at att.net Sat Oct 27 08:16:21 2007 From: mineral.maertens at att.net (Johan Maertens) Date: Sat Oct 27 08:23:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? In-Reply-To: <200710270101.l9R11IFI028329@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: You have fluorescent mineral at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum? Got to come and check it out Earl ;-) When I visit displays, it serves an esthetic, educational and scientific purpose. Too much information does not hurt Jane Doe. She does not read the label anyway. I have given museum and personal displays poor ratings because of missing information and wrong information irritates me very much. The display card is not a substitute for the detailed catalog card and associate records of acquisition you keep on file with your records with an identification key The location of the display for information is debatable. I find that cards can distract from the display and I prefer the ID information to be available on the side. This way you do not have to care about the esthetics of the label matching the display. MUST An exact identification and IMA approved naming of the minerals on the specimen Location: to the geographic & ownership level (i.e. a MEXICO specimen is useless, just eye candy, unless there are more details) [Because mine or properties change ownership and do change names over time, the quarry name will be a judgment call: list the name at time of collection or current name] Cross reference with the specimen when the card is not associated with the specimen Legible print: large print and good contrast DO NOT use an old label. Keep that for the catalog file NICE to HAVE Properties of the specimen: twinning, pseudomorph, epitaxy, color, luminescence Location: beyond the MUST information: i.e. mine level Collecting date Mineral group: STRUNZ/DANA Crystal structure Ownership: only at request: like "on loan from" OPTION None: enough information already. You want to know more? Ask the curator Johan Maertens Mineral dot Maertens at att dot net calcite4ever at gmail dot com Do you like minerals and other earth treasures? Visit the Mineral Collectors Page by the Mineral Club of Antwerp at http://www.minerant.org From jerrybs at frii.com Sat Oct 27 09:22:33 2007 From: jerrybs at frii.com (jerry) Date: Sat Oct 27 09:24:21 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps In-Reply-To: <200710271235.l9RCZQib014488@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710271235.l9RCZQib014488@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <20071027162412.9DB8667864@mail.frii.com> I've heard that 60/90 will wear out an aluminum pan. Is this true or a myth? Jerry WA At 05:35 AM 10/27/07, you wrote: >Try to sand something soft with a silicon carbide sanding disk >(e.g., calcite). It polishes rather than sands. It is very sharp, >thus it will tend to "stick" to the aluminum pan and sand the rock >vs. the opposite. If it easily abraded aluminum or cast iron, then >vibrating laps as a concept would be a bust. > >At 05:18 AM 10/27/2007, you wrote: >> >>In a message dated 10/26/2007 10:10:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>nospam@orerockon.com writes: >> >>but aluminum is soft so the silicon carbide grit tends >>to cut the rock and not the pan. >> >> >> >> >>Not doubting you, at all, Tim, but shouldn't the reverse of that statement >>be true..at least from a logic standpoint? I am sure you are right, but just >>had to chime in.. >> >>Jeff > >Tim Fisher >Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site >Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. >Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > >- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/07 11:02 AM From bobl at peaktopeak.com Sat Oct 27 13:20:28 2007 From: bobl at peaktopeak.com (Bob Loeffler) Date: Sat Oct 27 13:19:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? Message-ID: <200710272019.l9RKJmWT006258@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Hi all, Someone asked me whether we (rockhounds) can go dig in a mine dump/tailings if the mine is abandoned. I wasn't sure what to say, so I stated the safe answer: No, it has to be owned by someone so you shouldn't until you can get permission from the owner (whether it's a company or the government). So my question to all of you is: Who owns a mine if it has been abandoned? One would think that if a mine really has been abandoned, then it's mineral rights should go back to whichever government entity it was originally purchased from (e.g. the Federal government [BLM, NFS, etc] or the state in which it's located). I wanted to research it a little and here are two definitions that I found on the web: - A mine is considered abandoned if there are no identifiable owners or operators for the facilities, or if the facilities have reverted to federal ownership. - A mine is considered to be inactive if there is an identifiable owner or operator of the facility, but the facility is not currently operating and there are no approved authorizations or permits to operate. Therefore, an abandoned mine's ownership could revert back to the Federal gov't, but will it always do that? And if so, can I then stake a claim on it? I know that there is a difference between patented and unpatented mines, but I'm not sure what that exactly entails. I thought that if a mine is patented, then it will always be private property, but is that true? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks and regards, Bob L. From nospam at orerockon.com Sat Oct 27 13:48:26 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sat Oct 27 13:49:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? In-Reply-To: <200710272019.l9RKJmWT006258@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710272019.l9RKJmWT006258@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <200710272049.l9RKnJHQ026445@bubbleator.drizzle.com> At 01:20 PM 10/27/2007, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Someone asked me whether we (rockhounds) can go dig in a mine dump/tailings >if the mine is abandoned. I wasn't sure what to say, so I stated the safe >answer: No, it has to be owned by someone so you shouldn't until you can >get permission from the owner (whether it's a company or the government). > >So my question to all of you is: Who owns a mine if it has been abandoned? The current owner of the mineral rights, in every case. >One would think that if a mine really has been abandoned, then it's mineral >rights should go back to whichever government entity it was originally >purchased from (e.g. the Federal government [BLM, NFS, etc] or the state in >which it's located). I wanted to research it a little and here are two >definitions that I found on the web: > >- A mine is considered abandoned if there are no identifiable owners or >operators for the facilities, or if the facilities have reverted to federal >ownership. Or, if the mineral rights have expired and reverted to the original owner. This sounds like the USFS/BLM definition, and as they already know, they don't always own the mineral rights. The structures are a different beast, they default to the entity that owns the land. If the structures have reverted to the land owner, but there is a current claim on the mineral rights (see my answer about claiming abandoned mines below) AFAIK the mine is not abandoned, but is inactive, which contradicts the second part of their definition above. >- A mine is considered to be inactive if there is an identifiable owner or >operator of the facility, but the facility is not currently operating and >there are no approved authorizations or permits to operate. Inactive mines are just like inactive claims, you need permission to dig on them from the mine/claim owner. The entity that owns the land has no say. >Therefore, an abandoned mine's ownership could revert back to the Federal >gov't, but will it always do that? And if so, can I then stake a claim on >it? If the feds owned the mineral rights in the first place, they get the mine and structures. If you file a mineral claim on the same property, you get the mineral rights. The structures and "improvements" still belong to the feds. >I know that there is a difference between patented and unpatented mines, but >I'm not sure what that exactly entails. I thought that if a mine is >patented, then it will always be private property, but is that true? A patented property is just that: a private property, aka an "inholding". The person who owns the mineral rights also owns the land. They are not however free from the environmental permitting process that unpatented claims must go through. They still have to file a yearly mining plan that has to be approved by the entity that patented the property in their name. I have seen veiled threats by the gummint to take back patented properties, but AFAIK it has never been done (and would entail one heck of a court battle under the current outdated mining laws). They also still have to let the patenting agency access the property anytime they feel like it. This latter has been a bone of contention among certain to-remain-unnamed miners and the USFS here in Oregon. >Any help would be appreciated. > >Thanks and regards, > >Bob L. Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From tjokela at execulink.com Sat Oct 27 14:26:26 2007 From: tjokela at execulink.com (Tim Jokela Jr.) Date: Sat Oct 27 14:26:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Public displays -- How much info on labels? References: <000901c817ab$6731e9f0$6401a8c0@AxelHP><001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <472242CB0000EFD2@n126.sc0.he.tucows.com> (added bypostmaster@bouncemessage.net) Message-ID: <001801c818e0$08417e70$6400a8c0@Junior> Person A should not be working in a museum. Name of main mineral and associates, chemistry, mine, nearest town, county, and country, should be the minimum requirements for an educational display. In a nice simple font, black on white, and large enough to be seen by older eyes. Right next to the specimen, not hidden on on the base of the display case or off to the side on the wall somewhere. The more info, the merrier, if space is not an issue, eg. with the huge, fabulous old specimens that museums are famous for. Why not have a few paragraphs on when that meter-long stibnite was mined, what antimony is used for, etc, if you've got the space. The bizarre modern trend of paring down or eliminating labels altogether, as having nothing to do with aesthetics, drives serious collectors barking mad. Is the museum interested in showing pretty things, or educating people? Fight the good fight, Earl. Tim Jokela Jr., tjokela@execulink.com Business: http://www.element51.com Pleasure: http://www.ontariominerals.com ----- Original Message ----- >>Hello All, >> >>I'd like to ask list members for their views on a subject that repeatedly >>arises here at the Sterling Hill Mining Museum. Here's an excerpt from a >>conversation this morning -- one of many just like this: >> >>Person A: I'd like you to make a label for this specimen we placed on >>display yesterday. >>Person B: But the locality just says "Mexico." Don't we have any more >>information than that? >>Person A: Just put down "Mexico." No one cares anyway. >> snip >>Thanks for any help you can provide... >> >> Cheers- Earl Verbeek >> >> >> >> >>-- >>_______________________________________________ >>Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >>Subscription Services: >>http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >>List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >>http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From Paintricks at aol.com Sat Oct 27 17:26:53 2007 From: Paintricks at aol.com (Paintricks@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 27 17:26:58 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? Message-ID: I too am curious of this topic. I just bought a house outside of Cripple Creek, Colorado. I have an abandoned gold mine just feet from the back of the house. It's a shaft that goes in about 23 feet with a boulder wedged in the entrance. Since I own the land it sits on, Can I obtain mineral rights to it or can I just open the claim back up? Mineral rights are hard to come by here but I figure there is always a way to get access to my own land. The land below my property is a different story from what I hear. Where would I go to re open the claim online? Thanks, Kevin ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Oct 27 18:40:49 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Oct 27 18:46:18 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? References: Message-ID: <4723E704.2777@Tomaszewski.net> Kevin, Many years ago my wife and I inherited a sum of money and used it as a down payment on some property to camp on while we held it as an investment. Shortly after we had paid it off we were contacted by an oil exploration company that wanted to lease our mineral rights. They were offering cash (lump sum up front an an annual check) with a promise of more if they went into production (and even more if they selected our property for drilling). In checking them out I found that (at least in Michigan) if your Deed does not specifically exclude the mineral rights they go with the property, either because they have been retained by the various owners, or they have reverted back to the property owners at some point after being seperated. We ended up leasing the mineral rights for ten years and recorded it with the County Clerk. BTW, after the lease expired we sold the property, including mineral rights, and put two kids thru college with the proceeds. You may want to check into the Law in Colorado (call your real estate agent). You may already have rights to the minerals on your property. Kreigh Paintricks@aol.com wrote: > > I too am curious of this topic. I just bought a house outside of Cripple > Creek, Colorado. I have an abandoned gold mine just feet from the back of the > house. It's a shaft that goes in about 23 feet with a boulder wedged in the > entrance. Since I own the land it sits on, Can I obtain mineral rights to > it or can I just open the claim back up? Mineral rights are hard to come by > here but I figure there is always a way to get access to my own land. The > land below my property is a different story from what I hear. > Where would I go to re open the claim online? > Thanks, > Kevin > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sat Oct 27 19:37:38 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sat Oct 27 19:37:32 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amazing comet up right now References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> Message-ID: <004301c8190b$81b33840$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> A friend of mine dropped this note today: "[Did you] get a chance to see Comet Holmes?! I hope you've heard the story. Within a few hours, it rose from 17th magnitude to about 2.8!! " I was at a seminar in Garrard County overnight last night, and when the clouds broke I saw it easily with the naked eye--in Perseus under the light of the near-full moon. In my 10 x 50 binocs, it was an amazing, round, planetary nebula-looking sight!! No tail visible, but it has not only burst in brightness, but it's actually huge in size for a comet which was so dim a few days ago." >From 17th to 3rd magnitude is an increase in brightness that is almost unprecedented! All I need now is clear skies! Alan From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sat Oct 27 20:53:55 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sat Oct 27 20:47:08 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amazing comet up right now References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <004301c8190b$81b33840$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Message-ID: <47240623.45DA@Tomaszewski.net> Alan Goldstein wrote: > > A friend of mine dropped this note today: > > "[Did you] get a chance to see Comet Holmes?! I hope you've > heard the story. Within a few hours, it rose from 17th magnitude to > about 2.8!! > > " I was at a seminar in Garrard County overnight last night, and > when the clouds broke I saw it easily with the naked eye--in Perseus > under the light of the near-full moon. In my 10 x 50 binocs, it was an > amazing, round, planetary nebula-looking sight!! No tail visible, but it > has not only burst in brightness, but it's actually huge in size for a > comet which was so dim a few days ago." > > >From 17th to 3rd magnitude is an increase in brightness that is almost > unprecedented! All I need now is clear skies! > > Alan It is quite a sight. I saw it just after it flared up (I saw the BBC story), and again tonight. I can hardly wait until it clearly starts showing a tail. This dirty snowball has promise. Keep an eye on it while it is too dark to collect rocks off the ground. Kreigh From Paintricks at aol.com Sat Oct 27 22:33:11 2007 From: Paintricks at aol.com (Paintricks@aol.com) Date: Sat Oct 27 22:33:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? Message-ID: Thanks Kreigh, I was told that the mineral rights were not included in the deed. Not sure how all this works. It seems that since there has been no activity in many years, maybe I could figure out how to at least get the claim open again. I'm going to check with the BLM and see what I can do. Thanks again for the advice. Kevin ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Sun Oct 28 03:35:44 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Sun Oct 28 03:35:53 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amazing comet up right now In-Reply-To: <47240623.45DA@Tomaszewski.net> References: <001001c817e1$69e45030$2101a8c0@D3JM7W21> <004301c8190b$81b33840$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> <47240623.45DA@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <000601c8194e$4bf43c20$6401a8c0@AxelHP> > Keep an eye on it while it is too dark to collect > rocks off the ground. Sorry but when it's too dark for you guys I turn on my UV-lamp and start collecting ;-))))) Axel From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Oct 28 05:30:43 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Oct 28 05:31:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] News Article Fossil Point OR whale skull search & rescue mission Message-ID: <200710281231.l9SCVJa7026663@bubbleator.drizzle.com> "You will be hearing more as the story develops :)" Toldja! http://www.theworldlink.com/ Click on Whale of a Find :) Their video is excellent (download the QT movie (12 Mb); it's much much nicer) >Read all about it on my site. NARG rescued an as-yet-undescribed >genus and species of fossil whale from Coos Bay, OR last week. You >will be hearing more as the story develops :) > >http://orerockon.com/ore_rock.htm > >Click on the Whale Skull Search & Rescue link near the bottom of the page Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Pmodreski at aol.com Sun Oct 28 05:59:33 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Sun Oct 28 05:59:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Amazing comet up right now Message-ID: I saw the comet here in Denver too, Thursday night--quite easy to spot, neat. Cloudy Friday and hazy enough last night that I couldn't quite see it--perhapss tonight. Comets in the heavens used to be considered portents of great disaster--that could apply to the poor Rockies perhaps... Heading off to things downtown at the GSA annual meeting today! Pete Modreski ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From lanny at lrream.com Sun Oct 28 10:23:29 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Oct 28 10:23:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check your deed and county records. Generally, if the surface and mineral rights are separated, the deed to the surface rights will state that the mineral rights are not included. The BLM may or may not have records showing this. If the rights were separated after the government gave up rights to the land, then this separation may not be shown in the BLM records, only that both are in private hands. Is your land a patented mining claim? If so, it is possible that the mineral rights were separated, because somewhere along the chain of titles to the land changing hands, someone might have sold only the surface rights hoping that someday there might be enough value in any remaining minerals for them to be worth mining. If you do own the mineral rights, then you can do what you want with the mine in accordance with the state and county surface disturbance and environmental laws. Regards, Lanny On Oct 27, 2007, at 5:26 PM, Paintricks@aol.com wrote: > I too am curious of this topic. I just bought a house outside of > Cripple > Creek, Colorado. I have an abandoned gold mine just feet from the > back of the > house. It's a shaft that goes in about 23 feet with a boulder wedged > in the > entrance. Since I own the land it sits on, Can I obtain mineral > rights to > it or can I just open the claim back up? Mineral rights are hard to > come by > here but I figure there is always a way to get access to my own land. > The > land below my property is a different story from what I hear. > Where would I go to re open the claim online? > Thanks, > Kevin > > > > ************************************** See what's new at > http://www.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > From lanny at lrream.com Sun Oct 28 11:11:39 2007 From: lanny at lrream.com (Lanny) Date: Sun Oct 28 11:11:42 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? In-Reply-To: <200710272049.l9RKnJHQ026445@bubbleator.drizzle.com> References: <200710272019.l9RKJmWT006258@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <200710272049.l9RKnJHQ026445@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <6ae98bd20470f7af261af2bba438b59a@lrream.com> On Oct 27, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > ... >> - A mine is considered abandoned if there are no identifiable owners >> or >> operators for the facilities, or if the facilities have reverted to >> federal >> ownership. > Or, if the mineral rights have expired and reverted to the original > owner. This sounds like the USFS/BLM definition, and as they already > know, they don't always own the mineral rights. The structures are a > different beast, they default to the entity that owns the land. If the > structures have reverted to the land owner, but there is a current > claim on the mineral rights (see my answer about claiming abandoned > mines below) AFAIK the mine is not abandoned, but is inactive, which > contradicts the second part of their definition above. Actually the quoted definition is correct. The facilities in this definition does not just mean any mine buildings, it also means mine workings (shafts, adits, etc.); and these workings belong to any claim owner, so "no owners or operators for the facilities" automatically means no mining claimant. ("Ownership" is not the right term to be used for minerals on unpatented mining claims. The government owns the minerals until the land is patented. A claimant has rights to exploit the minerals, but until that is done, the minerals are still owned by the government.) > >> Therefore, an abandoned mine's ownership could revert back to the >> Federal >> gov't, but will it always do that? And if so, can I then stake a >> claim on >> it? > If the feds owned the mineral rights in the first place, they get the > mine and structures. If you file a mineral claim on the same property, > you get the mineral rights. The structures and "improvements" still > belong to the feds. I don't believe this is quite so clear cut. Generally the government only takes control of structures if it has specifically stated it has control. Typically this is done when it wants to remove the buildings, if they are old buildings and they want to preserve them as historic artifacts (such as in a ghost town) or if they are trying to use the buildings for leverage/control in an environmental issue. It would be rather ridiculous for the a mine to be abandoned, then relocated and the government to tell the new claimant that he cannot use the headframe, it's government property. > >> I know that there is a difference between patented and unpatented >> mines, but >> I'm not sure what that exactly entails. I thought that if a mine is >> patented, then it will always be private property, but is that true? > A patented property is just that: a private property, aka an > "inholding". The person who owns the mineral rights also owns the > land. They are not however free from the environmental permitting > process that unpatented claims must go through. They still have to > file a yearly mining plan that has to be approved by the entity that > patented the property in their name. I have seen veiled threats by the > gummint to take back patented properties, but AFAIK it has never been > done (and would entail one heck of a court battle under the current > outdated mining laws). They also still have to let the patenting > agency access the property anytime they feel like it. This latter has > been a bone of contention among certain to-remain-unnamed miners and > the USFS here in Oregon. > Mostly wrong; patented mining claims are fee simple: the federal government gives up all rights, just like it does with most private property. A patented mining claim is just like any other piece of property in a county, it is now subject to the county laws and ordinances and the state laws and ordinances and only those federal laws that apply to any private property. The owner of an unpanted mining claim has to deal with the federal government first for mining operations, then the state or county. The owner of a patented mining claim only has to deal with the state and county governments or the federal environmental laws as they apply to all private land. The owners of patented mining claims do not have to deal with mining plans with the federal government like holders of unpatented claims. In fact, that is the main reason that mining companies like to patent mining claims--get the federal government off their backs and just deal with the state. Veiled threats to take back patented properties are just that: veiled threats. A mining claim is patented as fee simple land, all federal government rights are given up. The patenting process does not require that the land be used for mining, there are no requirements. The federal government has no more rights to enter a patented mining claim than it has to enter any private property. The federal government is not going to take back patented mining claims anymore than it is going to take back homesteads, timber patents, railroad patents, etc. I'm sure all those rich people sitting in multimillion dollar homes on patented mining claims in Aspen, Park City, Sun Valley, etc. are going to be giving up their land to the feds. Regards, Lanny From nospam at orerockon.com Sun Oct 28 13:16:40 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Sun Oct 28 13:16:46 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Abandoned mines: Who owns them? In-Reply-To: <6ae98bd20470f7af261af2bba438b59a@lrream.com> References: <200710272019.l9RKJmWT006258@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <200710272049.l9RKnJHQ026445@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <6ae98bd20470f7af261af2bba438b59a@lrream.com> Message-ID: <200710282016.l9SKGha6021342@bubbleator.drizzle.com> At 11:11 AM 10/28/2007, you wrote: >On Oct 27, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Tim Fisher wrote: > >Actually the quoted definition is correct. The facilities in this >definition does not just mean any mine buildings, it also means mine >workings (shafts, adits, etc.); and these workings belong to any >claim owner, so "no owners or operators for the facilities" >automatically means no mining claimant. ("Ownership" is not the >right term to be used for minerals on unpatented mining claims. The >government owns the minerals until the land is patented. A claimant >has rights to exploit the minerals, but until that is done, the >minerals are still owned by the government.) I agree totally :) >I don't believe this is quite so clear cut. Generally the government >only takes control of structures if it has specifically stated it >has control. Typically this is done when it wants to remove the >buildings, if they are old buildings and they want to preserve them >as historic artifacts (such as in a ghost town) or if they are >trying to use the buildings for leverage/control in an environmental >issue. It would be rather ridiculous for the a mine to be abandoned, >then relocated and the government to tell the new claimant that he >cannot use the headframe, it's government property. Makes sense to me! >>A patented property is just that: a private property, aka an >>"inholding". The person who owns the mineral rights also owns the >>land. They are not however free from the environmental permitting >>process that unpatented claims must go through. They still have to >>file a yearly mining plan that has to be approved by the entity >>that patented the property in their name. I have seen veiled >>threats by the gummint to take back patented properties, but AFAIK >>it has never been done (and would entail one heck of a court battle >>under the current outdated mining laws). They also still have to >>let the patenting agency access the property anytime they feel like >>it. This latter has been a bone of contention among certain >>to-remain-unnamed miners and the USFS here in Oregon. >Mostly wrong; patented mining claims are fee simple: the federal >government gives up all rights, just like it does with most private >property. A patented mining claim is just like any other piece of >property in a county, it is now subject to the county laws and >ordinances and the state laws and ordinances and only those federal >laws that apply to any private property. Tell that to the Ochoco National Forest, Lanny. As you once said, the gummint interprets the 1872 Mining Law as it sees fit, and these interpretations can vary over a wide spectrum between agencies and even forests or BLM districts. They have been using the environmental consequences of mining as an excuse to access patented properties on the forest for quite a few years (at least 20 years in one case). Consequences to the Canadian lynx, no less, which no one doubts has been extirpated from Oregon since at least the 1950s. >The owner of an unpanted mining claim has to deal with the federal >government first for mining operations, then the state or county. >The owner of a patented mining claim only has to deal with the state >and county governments or the federal environmental laws as they >apply to all private land. The owners of patented mining claims do >not have to deal with mining plans with the federal government like >holders of unpatented claims. In fact, that is the main reason that >mining companies like to patent mining claims--get the federal >government off their backs and just deal with the state. Yep, until they pull an extirpated species out of their orifices. >Veiled threats to take back patented properties are just that: >veiled threats. A mining claim is patented as fee simple land, all >federal government rights are given up. The patenting process does >not require that the land be used for mining, there are no >requirements. The federal government has no more rights to enter a >patented mining claim than it has to enter any private property. The >federal government is not going to take back patented mining claims >anymore than it is going to take back homesteads, timber patents, >railroad patents, etc. I'm sure all those rich people sitting in >multimillion dollar homes on patented mining claims in Aspen, Park >City, Sun Valley, etc. are going to be giving up their land to the feds. Like I said, they will use threats when it suits their purpose. I happen to think they are empty threats, as do you. >Regards, > >Lanny Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Sun Oct 28 14:08:43 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Sun Oct 28 13:59:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] News Article Fossil Point OR whale skull search & rescue mission References: <200710281231.l9SCVJa7026663@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <4724EA06.5ED3@Tomaszewski.net> Way cool! Tim Fisher wrote: > > "You will be hearing more as the story develops :)" > Toldja! > > http://www.theworldlink.com/ > > Click on Whale of a Find :) Their video is excellent (download the QT > movie (12 Mb); it's much much nicer) > > >Read all about it on my site. NARG rescued an as-yet-undescribed > >genus and species of fossil whale from Coos Bay, OR last week. You > >will be hearing more as the story develops :) > > > >http://orerockon.com/ore_rock.htm > > > >Click on the Whale Skull Search & Rescue link near the bottom of the page > > Tim Fisher > Ore-ROCK-On! > Email address at http://OreRockOn.com > From rockcurrier at cs.com Sun Oct 28 17:36:39 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Sun Oct 28 17:38:39 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral References: <200710260102.l9Q12knZ021037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <00a101c819c3$c6499f90$6501a8c0@NICHOLAS6> It seems to me that the IMA is well on its way to puting itself out of business. Their definition of a mineral cleaves strongly to the classical definition, and the more ridgedly they stick to this definition the further out of step they become to what is happening in the world today. Is there a university in the USA that offers a degree in mineralogy and if so how many students are studying to get one? Even geology departments are vanishing at an alarming rate to be replaced with departments with names that encompass a wider spectrum of human interests. It would seem advisable to expand the definition of what a mineral is and make it as broad as possible and therefore claim as wide a domain as possible for study. Certainly recognize slag minerals and many others created by human activity. Certainly recognize nano minerals. Think how greatly this would expand the domain of mineralogy. The structure of the nano mineral that causes the color in rose quartz is known, but not recognized because many of the classical physical properties currently required for approval are currently impossible to measure. How about the structure of teeth and bones. I would certainly want to claim that that as an area of official mineralogical study. How much locality data and other information should be on a museum display label? Certainly at least the species names and the Country would be bare minimum. How much more information you put on them depends on how much information you want to try and give the public. Want percentage of the public will read beyond the species names and the country of origin. Not many, but remember you should be trying to ignite the interest in that one person in a hundred who may go on and develop a real interest in mineralogy. I think no museum should use the excuse that 99% of the people looking at the mineral don't care to learn more about and that is a good reason to truncate display information. With the advent of inexpensive computers and flat screen displays, entering a specimen number can access any amount of extra data about the specimen and not interfere with the attractiveness of the exhibit. This may be the future. Rock From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Sun Oct 28 18:43:59 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Sun Oct 28 18:43:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction / Comet Holmes References: <8C9E55ED2F78BDB-8B4-4918@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <003001c819cd$2d26b280$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> There was an article in our paper today about it. Also an article about a stargazing community in Georgia, similar to the one in Arizona. Got to look at Comet Holmes this evening. Very bright, easy to find about 20 degrees below (east) of the "W" of stars in Cassiopeia. Weirdest comet I've seen in 30 years of star gazing! I think it was clobbered by an asteroid since it's orbit is within the asteroid belt. Kind of like the "Deep Impact" probe from a couple of years ago, but much more massive. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction > > I've meant to write back to the List and thank _________ (well, darn, I > can't find his post any more, maybe I deleted it or I'm not looking under > the correct heading), but to thank him for mentioning the Oct. 28 auction > of "Historic Meteorites and Related Americana" by Bonhams in NYC on > October 28. > > Their online catalog of the 53 items in this auction is really worth > viewing, because many of the items are truly remarkable, unique, and > historic.? It's at > http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=Catalogue&iSaleNo=15648 > If you're at all interested in meteorites and have not followed up this > post to look at this catalog, I'd encourage you to do so.? It really has a > wealth of information,?with excellent photographs and good descriptions of > all the items.? The projected two most expensive items for sale are Steve > Arnold's 1410-pound "main mass" of the Brenham, Kansas pallasite, and the > 29.5-pound piece sawn off the Williamette meteorite, otherwise on display > at the American Museum of Natural History and subject of much > controversy.? There are many other very interesting meteorite samples, as > well as the mailbox smashed by a meteorite fall in Georgia... > > In fact, I went ahead and called to order a copy of the printed catalog > ($30), not because I am bidding on anything, but because I think this will > be a useful and informative book to keep for future reference. > > Pete Modreski > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - > http://mail.aol.com > > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From litleval at ruralnetwork.net Sun Oct 28 21:49:34 2007 From: litleval at ruralnetwork.net (Wayne Rasmussen) Date: Sun Oct 28 21:49:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] vibro laps References: <200710271235.l9RCZQib014488@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <20071027162412.9DB8667864@mail.frii.com> Message-ID: <002201c819e7$1afc20d0$695fe842@Titans> Jerry, I have used 60/90 grit for years in my 27, 20 and 16 inch commercial vibro laps until the grit is broken down so fine it puts a pre-polish on the slabs and book ends, no seeable damage to the aluminum pans has occurred, Tims right. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] vibro laps > I've heard that 60/90 will wear out an aluminum pan. Is this true or a > myth? > > Jerry > WA > > At 05:35 AM 10/27/07, you wrote: > >>Try to sand something soft with a silicon carbide sanding disk (e.g., >>calcite). It polishes rather than sands. It is very sharp, thus it will >>tend to "stick" to the aluminum pan and sand the rock vs. the opposite. If >>it easily abraded aluminum or cast iron, then vibrating laps as a concept >>would be a bust. >> >>At 05:18 AM 10/27/2007, you wrote: >>> >>>In a message dated 10/26/2007 10:10:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >>>nospam@orerockon.com writes: >>> >>>but aluminum is soft so the silicon carbide grit tends >>>to cut the rock and not the pan. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Not doubting you, at all, Tim, but shouldn't the reverse of that >>>statement >>>be true..at least from a logic standpoint? I am sure you are right, but >>>just >>>had to chime in.. >>> >>>Jeff >> >>Tim Fisher >>Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site >>Owner, Fisher Fisheries, Ltd. >>Email address at http://OreRockOn.com >> >>- > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: > 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/07 11:02 AM > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From pmodreski at aol.com Mon Oct 29 09:34:52 2007 From: pmodreski at aol.com (pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Mon Oct 29 09:35:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction - results In-Reply-To: <8C9E55ED2F78BDB-8B4-4918@WEBMAIL-DC10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8C9E860C3F7D2B1-F6C-EB6@WEBMAIL-DF02.sysops.aol.com> A friend wrote & mentioned that she'd heard on the news (NPR?) about the results of the big meteorite sale.? I just tried to check online, the results are not yet posted at the Bonhams website, but I found one online news story about it, this one from BBC.? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7066340.stm I see with interest that neither of the two "flagship" items up for sale, the Williamette meteorite and the Brenham meteorite, both pegged at expectation prices near $1M, sold.? A few other items that did sell are mentioned.? Once they have had time to post results, one will be able to view all the selling prices plus the orginal catalog descriptions & photos on their auction website, www.bonhams.com or as given below. Pete -----Original Message----- From: pmodreski@aol.com To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com Sent: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 2:43 pm Subject: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction I've meant to write back to the List and thank _________ (well, darn, I can't find his post any more, maybe I deleted it or I'm not looking under the correct heading), but to thank him for mentioning the Oct. 28 auction of "Historic Meteorites and Related Americana" by Bonhams in NYC on October 28. Their online catalog of the 53 items in this auction is really worth viewing, because many of the items are truly remarkable, unique, and historic.? It's at http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=Catalogue&iSaleNo=15648 If you're at all interested in meteorites and have not followed up this post to look at this catalog, I'd encourage you to do so.? It really has a wealth of information,?with excellent photographs and good descriptions of all the items.? The projected two most expensive items for sale are Steve Arnold's 1410-pound "main mass" of the Brenham, Kansas pallasite, and the 29.5-pound piece sawn off the Williamette meteorite, otherwise on display at the American Museum of Natural History and subject of much controversy.? There are many other very interesting meteorite samples, as well as the mailbox smashed by a meteorite fall in Georgia... In fact, I went ahead and called to order a copy of the printed catalog ($30), not because I am bidding on anything, but because I think this will be a useful and informative book to keep for future reference. Pete Modreski ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Mon Oct 29 09:41:30 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Mon Oct 29 09:41:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral In-Reply-To: <00a101c819c3$c6499f90$6501a8c0@NICHOLAS6> References: <200710260102.l9Q12knZ021037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <00a101c819c3$c6499f90$6501a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: <002301c81a4a$8f361f10$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi group, Here's another thought that I think goes to the root of the problem. You cannot make decisions with a committee, only compromises. If you want a clean and consequent way of naming minerals than there is only one thing you can do: establish the rules and then stick to them. Go over the existing mineral names and dare to scratch. Once you make 1 exception the system loses it's integrity and the result is what we see now. Mercury shouldn't be a mineral unless water is too. It's the same with laws and regulations: there is no use making them if you don't plan to enforce them unless you like grey areas ;-))) Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Rock Currier > Verzonden: maandag 29 oktober 2007 1:37 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > > It seems to me that the IMA is well on its way to puting > itself out of business. Their definition of a mineral cleaves > strongly to the classical definition, and the more ridgedly > they stick to this definition the further out of step they > become to what is happening in the world today. Is there a > university in the USA that offers a degree in mineralogy and > if so how many students are studying to get one? Even geology > departments are vanishing at an alarming rate to be replaced > with departments with names that encompass a wider spectrum > of human interests. It would seem advisable to expand the > definition of what a mineral is and make it as broad as > possible and therefore claim as wide a domain as possible for study. > > Certainly recognize slag minerals and many others created by > human activity. > Certainly recognize nano minerals. Think how greatly this > would expand the domain of mineralogy. The structure of the > nano mineral that causes the color in rose quartz is known, > but not recognized because many of the classical physical > properties currently required for approval are currently > impossible to measure. How about the structure of teeth and > bones. I would certainly want to claim that that as an area > of official mineralogical study. > > > > How much locality data and other information should be on a > museum display label? Certainly at least the species names > and the Country would be bare minimum. How much more > information you put on them depends on how much information > you want to try and give the public. Want percentage of the > public will read beyond the species names and the country of > origin. Not many, but remember you should be trying to ignite > the interest in that one person in a hundred who may go on > and develop a real interest in mineralogy. > I think no museum should use the excuse that 99% of the > people looking at the mineral don't care to learn more about > and that is a good reason to truncate display information. > With the advent of inexpensive computers and flat screen > displays, entering a specimen number can access any amount of > extra data about the specimen and not interfere with the > attractiveness of the exhibit. This may be the future. > > Rock > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Mon Oct 29 09:48:58 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Mon Oct 29 09:50:25 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction - results References: <8C9E860C3F7D2B1-F6C-EB6@WEBMAIL-DF02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001401c81a4b$a0bb54c0$0200a8c0@Notebook> This from the Oregonian http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/119362832576880.xml&coll=7 John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Bonhams meteorite auction - results >A friend wrote & mentioned that she'd heard on the news (NPR?) about the >results of the big meteorite sale.? I just tried to check online, the >results are not yet posted at the Bonhams website, but I found one online >news story about it, this one from BBC.? > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7066340.stm > I see with interest that neither of the two "flagship" items up for sale, > the Williamette meteorite and the Brenham meteorite, both pegged at > expectation prices near $1M, sold.? A few other items that did sell are > mentioned.? Once they have had time to post results, one will be able to > view all the selling prices plus the orginal catalog descriptions & photos > on their auction website, www.bonhams.com or as given below. > > Pete From turnea55 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 13:05:05 2007 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Mon Oct 29 13:05:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral In-Reply-To: <002301c81a4a$8f361f10$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Message-ID: Rock, I can't exactly agree with you completely regarding the inclusion of many man-made materials, "nano-minerals", etc. into the inclusion of the definition of a mineral. Geology is the only real pure natural science, of which mineralogy is a branch. Non-natural phases, hypothetical substances, or substances of unproven crystal structure cannot, by definition, be lumped into this field. Although there are some issues and exceptions to the rule, by allowing all substances in all we get is chaos (add all biological substances, all organic molecules, man-made phases, alloys, etc). Pretty soon the natural science becomes moot. These substances are well studied and represented in phase equilibria, metallurgical/process engineering, ceramic engineering, biology, chemistry, and physics classes. It is definitely true that mineralogy degrees are only offered at a few if any colleges. However, good geology departments still offer many mineral related classes knowing that the understanding of mineralogy (and the rocks that minerals make up) is necessary in most geologic professions. For instance, although my MS is in geology/geochemistry, I took classes in mineralogy, optical mineralogy, ore deposits, X-ray diffractometry, ore microscopy, phase equilibria, scanning electron microscopy, igneous/metamorphic petrography, sedimentary petrography, and carbonate petrography. For my thesis I studied how phosphate and uranium phosphate minerals, due to their crystalline structure and composition, can be used as a barrier to contain nuclear waste (as well as uranium mine talings, etc). I had to study mineral structures, substitution tendancies, reactivities, ox/redox potential, etc. which is directly related to mineralogy (albeit not the classical study). So while there are few classical mineralogists, there still are mineralogical opportunities out there. The structure of teeth and bones is a big topic in geology. I gave a talk at GSA a few years back and was put with the group that was discussing it. Teeth and bones are made up of carbonate-fluorapatite (although it varies in range of carbonate and F), a known and accepted mineral. Phosphates are very complex minerals and are being studied for a wide variety of new applications. I would love to hear about the natural nano-mineral discovered that gives rose quartz its color. I always thought it was believed to be an iron "color center" that is found within the SiO2 lattice structure of quartz, much like chromium or vanadium color centers cause a beryl to be green (emerald). Thanks. >From: "Axel Emmermann" >Reply-To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors" >To: "'Rock Currier'" , "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: >A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral >Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:41:30 +0100 > >Hi group, > >Here's another thought that I think goes to the root of the problem. >You cannot make decisions with a committee, only compromises. >If you want a clean and consequent way of naming minerals than there is >only >one thing you can do: establish the rules and then stick to them. Go over >the existing mineral names and dare to scratch. >Once you make 1 exception the system loses it's integrity and the result is >what we see now. >Mercury shouldn't be a mineral unless water is too. > >It's the same with laws and regulations: there is no use making them if you >don't plan to enforce them unless you like grey areas ;-))) > >Axel > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Rock Currier > > Verzonden: maandag 29 oktober 2007 1:37 > > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > > > > It seems to me that the IMA is well on its way to puting > > itself out of business. Their definition of a mineral cleaves > > strongly to the classical definition, and the more ridgedly > > they stick to this definition the further out of step they > > become to what is happening in the world today. Is there a > > university in the USA that offers a degree in mineralogy and > > if so how many students are studying to get one? Even geology > > departments are vanishing at an alarming rate to be replaced > > with departments with names that encompass a wider spectrum > > of human interests. It would seem advisable to expand the > > definition of what a mineral is and make it as broad as > > possible and therefore claim as wide a domain as possible for study. > > > > Certainly recognize slag minerals and many others created by > > human activity. > > Certainly recognize nano minerals. Think how greatly this > > would expand the domain of mineralogy. The structure of the > > nano mineral that causes the color in rose quartz is known, > > but not recognized because many of the classical physical > > properties currently required for approval are currently > > impossible to measure. How about the structure of teeth and > > bones. I would certainly want to claim that that as an area > > of official mineralogical study. > > > > > > > > How much locality data and other information should be on a > > museum display label? Certainly at least the species names > > and the Country would be bare minimum. How much more > > information you put on them depends on how much information > > you want to try and give the public. Want percentage of the > > public will read beyond the species names and the country of > > origin. Not many, but remember you should be trying to ignite > > the interest in that one person in a hundred who may go on > > and develop a real interest in mineralogy. > > I think no museum should use the excuse that 99% of the > > people looking at the mineral don't care to learn more about > > and that is a good reason to truncate display information. > > With the advent of inexpensive computers and flat screen > > displays, entering a specimen number can access any amount of > > extra data about the specimen and not interfere with the > > attractiveness of the exhibit. This may be the future. > > > > Rock > > > > > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > > Subscription Services: > > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From murowchickj at umkc.edu Mon Oct 29 13:23:10 2007 From: murowchickj at umkc.edu (Jim Murowchick) Date: Mon Oct 29 13:23:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Was What is a mineral, now Rose quartz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Andrew- There was an article in American Mineralogist 86: 466-474 (Goreva and Rossman) within the past 2-3 years that reported that a phase similar to dumortierite is responsible for the pink color in rose quartz. Samples of rose quartz from around the world were dissolved in HF, and in every case, a mat of dumortierite-like fibers was left as a residue. See also http://minerals.caltech.edu/manuscripts/2001/RoseQuartz1/Index.htm. Cheers, Jim Murowchick > I would love to hear about the natural nano-mineral discovered that gives > rose quartz its color. I always thought it was believed to be an iron > "color center" that is found within the SiO2 lattice structure of quartz, > much like chromium or vanadium color centers cause a beryl to be green > (emerald). Thanks. From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Mon Oct 29 17:05:04 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Mon Oct 29 17:04:59 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral (degree) References: Message-ID: <007601c81a88$85c95da0$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> No degrees in mineralogy... or paleontology for that matter. Geology, yes! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Turner" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 4:05 PM Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > Rock, > > I can't exactly agree with you completely regarding the inclusion of many > man-made materials, "nano-minerals", etc. into the inclusion of the > definition of a mineral. Geology is the only real pure natural science, > of which mineralogy is a branch. Non-natural phases, hypothetical > substances, or substances of unproven crystal structure cannot, by > definition, be lumped into this field. Although there are some issues and > exceptions to the rule, by allowing all substances in all we get is chaos > (add all biological substances, all organic molecules, man-made phases, > alloys, etc). Pretty soon the natural science becomes moot. These > substances are well studied and represented in phase equilibria, > metallurgical/process engineering, ceramic engineering, biology, > chemistry, and physics classes. > > It is definitely true that mineralogy degrees are only offered at a few if > any colleges. However, good geology departments still offer many mineral > related classes knowing that the understanding of mineralogy (and the > rocks that minerals make up) is necessary in most geologic professions. > For instance, although my MS is in geology/geochemistry, I took classes in > mineralogy, optical mineralogy, ore deposits, X-ray diffractometry, ore > microscopy, phase equilibria, scanning electron microscopy, > igneous/metamorphic petrography, sedimentary petrography, and carbonate > petrography. For my thesis I studied how phosphate and uranium phosphate > minerals, due to their crystalline structure and composition, can be used > as a barrier to contain nuclear waste (as well as uranium mine talings, > etc). I had to study mineral structures, substitution tendancies, > reactivities, ox/redox potential, etc. which is directly related to > mineralogy (albeit not the classical study). So while there are few > classical mineralogists, there still are mineralogical opportunities out > there. From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Mon Oct 29 20:42:16 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Mon Oct 29 20:41:55 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral References: <200710260102.l9Q12knZ021037@bubbleator.drizzle.com> <00a101c819c3$c6499f90$6501a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Message-ID: <4726A7E6.4DE5@Tomaszewski.net> Rock, I agree with you that the IMA needs to expand their horizons; I think you cast too wide a net. Natural origin, with or without human intervention, organic or inorganic origin, is OK; if it is only human made it needs to be excluded. Mineralogy needs to deal with the minerals found in Nature; 'Humans' are part of 'Nature'. Kreigh Rock Currier wrote: > > It seems to me that the IMA is well on its way to puting itself out of > business. Their definition of a mineral cleaves strongly to the classical > definition, and the more ridgedly they stick to this definition the further > out of step they become to what is happening in the world today. Is there a > university in the USA that offers a degree in mineralogy and if so how many > students are studying to get one? Even geology departments are vanishing at > an alarming rate to be replaced with departments with names that encompass a > wider spectrum of human interests. It would seem advisable to expand the > definition of what a mineral is and make it as broad as possible and > therefore claim as wide a domain as possible for study. > > Certainly recognize slag minerals and many others created by human activity. > Certainly recognize nano minerals. Think how greatly this would expand the > domain of mineralogy. The structure of the nano mineral that causes the > color in rose quartz is known, but not recognized because many of the > classical physical properties currently required for approval are currently > impossible to measure. How about the structure of teeth and bones. I would > certainly want to claim that that as an area of official mineralogical > study. > > How much locality data and other information should be on a museum display > label? Certainly at least the species names and the Country would be bare > minimum. How much more information you put on them depends on how much > information you want to try and give the public. Want percentage of the > public will read beyond the species names and the country of origin. Not > many, but remember you should be trying to ignite the interest in that one > person in a hundred who may go on and develop a real interest in mineralogy. > I think no museum should use the excuse that 99% of the people looking at > the mineral don't care to learn more about and that is a good reason to > truncate display information. With the advent of inexpensive computers and > flat screen displays, entering a specimen number can access any amount of > extra data about the specimen and not interfere with the attractiveness of > the exhibit. This may be the future. > > Rock > From lavenderfish at cox.net Mon Oct 29 21:03:34 2007 From: lavenderfish at cox.net (Carol Carter-Wientjes) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:03:36 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] heat treating for color References: <200710260102.l9Q12knZ021037@bubbleator.drizzle.com><00a101c819c3$c6499f90$6501a8c0@NICHOLAS6> <4726A7E6.4DE5@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <062501c81aa9$d7b75290$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Does anyone on the forum know what the method is to heat treat carnelian to deepen the color? Seems like you have to turn the temp up so many degrees every hour but can't recall the specific details now. Any ideas? Thanks so much, Carol From donhalterman at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 21:31:35 2007 From: donhalterman at verizon.net (donhalterman@verizon.net) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:31:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral Message-ID: <24686562.175251193718695976.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net> Come on brother Axel, I'm surprised to hear you say that. Mercury is a metallic native element which makes it a special case. And mercury does freeze at extreme earth temperatures and it does have a crystal structure when it does. Water is a covalent molecule, not an element. If water should be a mineral, then magma should be a mineral. Water is the "magma" for ice. It makes more sense for ice to be a mineral than it does for newberyite to be a mineral. Well anyway, since I'm not on the nomenclature commission (and BTW, the IMA does a *lot* more than write the definition of a mineral), I need to get back to something I can actually have an effect upon, my talk for tomorrow. The GSA convention is going well, Denver is a neat city, and it was nice to finally meet Pete Modreski. Best, Don From: Axel Emmermann Date: 2007/10/29 Mon AM 11:41:30 CDT To: 'Rock Currier' , "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors'" Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral Hi group, Here's another thought that I think goes to the root of the problem. You cannot make decisions with a committee, only compromises. If you want a clean and consequent way of naming minerals than there is only one thing you can do: establish the rules and then stick to them. Go over the existing mineral names and dare to scratch. Once you make 1 exception the system loses it's integrity and the result is what we see now. Mercury shouldn't be a mineral unless water is too. It's the same with laws and regulations: there is no use making them if you don't plan to enforce them unless you like grey areas ;-))) Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens Rock Currier > Verzonden: maandag 29 oktober 2007 1:37 > Aan: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Onderwerp: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > > It seems to me that the IMA is well on its way to puting > itself out of business. Their definition of a mineral cleaves > strongly to the classical definition, and the more ridgedly > they stick to this definition the further out of step they > become to what is happening in the world today. Is there a > university in the USA that offers a degree in mineralogy and > if so how many students are studying to get one? Even geology > departments are vanishing at an alarming rate to be replaced > with departments with names that encompass a wider spectrum > of human interests. It would seem advisable to expand the > definition of what a mineral is and make it as broad as > possible and therefore claim as wide a domain as possible for study. > > Certainly recognize slag minerals and many others created by > human activity. > Certainly recognize nano minerals. Think how greatly this > would expand the domain of mineralogy. The structure of the > nano mineral that causes the color in rose quartz is known, > but not recognized because many of the classical physical > properties currently required for approval are currently > impossible to measure. How about the structure of teeth and > bones. I would certainly want to claim that that as an area > of official mineralogical study. > > > > How much locality data and other information should be on a > museum display label? Certainly at least the species names > and the Country would be bare minimum. How much more > information you put on them depends on how much information > you want to try and give the public. Want percentage of the > public will read beyond the species names and the country of > origin. Not many, but remember you should be trying to ignite > the interest in that one person in a hundred who may go on > and develop a real interest in mineralogy. > I think no museum should use the excuse that 99% of the > people looking at the mineral don't care to learn more about > and that is a good reason to truncate display information. > With the advent of inexpensive computers and flat screen > displays, entering a specimen number can access any amount of > extra data about the specimen and not interfere with the > attractiveness of the exhibit. This may be the future. > > Rock > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From ajs at frii.com Mon Oct 29 21:55:03 2007 From: ajs at frii.com (Alan Silverstein) Date: Mon Oct 29 21:55:07 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Re: What is a mineral In-Reply-To: <24686562.175251193718695976.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20071030045503.460ED1CC35@io.frii.com> Parts of this discussion remind me of Rudy Rucker's observation in "Mindtools" that there are many dual truths (yin/yangs). He pointed out that the discrete and the continuous are both valid and complementary ways of viewing the world. In the discrete, only places (or minerals) with names (labels) are real, and "there's nothing in between," while in continuity, everything flows into everything else without rigid boundaries. The real point is that both perspectives are valid and often useful ways of perceiving any system. If you are 100% into rigid discreteness, demanding firm rules and definitions, exceptions will drive you nuts. If however you only accept the continuity of all existence, not wanting to be restricted by "arbitrary conventions", it can be hard to communicate without ambiguity in practical daily situations. As an engineer, exceptions to rules often drive me crazy, yet I've had to learn to accept incompleteness. There's no point in producing a "perfect" system when the fact of doing so misses the mark and no one actually wants to use it! Cheers, Alan Silverstein From flint...smith at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 29 22:39:25 2007 From: flint...smith at sbcglobal.net (Flint Smith) Date: Mon Oct 29 22:39:31 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] heat treating for color In-Reply-To: <062501c81aa9$d7b75290$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> Message-ID: <836123.20305.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There used to be a website that had a lot of that information Liccini.com, but Marc died and it disappeared. You might find what you need if you browse around in the Wayback Archive in the copies of Liccini.com. I seem to recall ... burying with sand, 500 degrees, washing carefully to remove oil, and cooling slowly. Good luck. My one attempt to heat-treat turned worthless agate into worthlesser agate. You may say "'Worthlesser' isn't a word", but that's because you didn't see the agate. Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: Does anyone on the forum know what the method is to heat treat carnelian to deepen the color? Seems like you have to turn the temp up so many degrees every hour but can't recall the specific details now. Any ideas? Thanks so much, Carol -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From rockcurrier at cs.com Tue Oct 30 02:26:15 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Tue Oct 30 02:31:01 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Why rose quartz is pink References: <200710300202.l9U22QlF021917@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <002e01c81ad6$ecaa33c0$6501a8c0@NICHOLAS6> Andrew For why rose quartz is pink see: Goreva JS, Ma C, Rossman GR (2001) Fibrous nanoinclusions in massive rose quartz. The origin of rose coloration. American Mineralogist 86, 466-472 Rock From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Oct 30 03:49:13 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Oct 30 03:49:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral In-Reply-To: <24686562.175251193718695976.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net> References: <24686562.175251193718695976.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000c01c81ae2$828b2fb0$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Hi my friend; > Come on brother Axel, I'm surprised to hear you say that. > Mercury is a metallic native element which makes it a special > case. And mercury does freeze at extreme earth temperatures > and it does have a crystal structure when it does. The native element part is correct but all the other arguments apply to water. Still, in the case of mercury there is no distinction made whether it is solid or liquid. > Water is a covalent molecule, not an element. If water > should be a mineral, then magma should be a mineral. Absolotelullu nono! Water has the same chemical make-up all over the world. There may be some contamination but water is water wherever you go. Which is BTW one of the criteria that is used. Magma is very different in composition and may be acidic or basaltic or intermediate or whatever. Why don't we scratch the 27 amorphous minerals then? >Water > is the "magma" for ice. I would agree with you in one case: during formation of pnuematolitic mineralizations it would be overheated vapor which resembles something like a magma with lots of components. > It makes more sense for ice to be a > mineral than it does for newberyite to be a mineral. Ice IS a mineral, isn't it? > > Well anyway, since I'm not on the nomenclature commission > (and BTW, the IMA does a *lot* more than write the definition > of a mineral), We all hope so ;-)))))))))) > I need to get back to something I can actually > have an effect upon, my talk for tomorrow. Success Don! Axel From nospam at orerockon.com Tue Oct 30 04:27:27 2007 From: nospam at orerockon.com (Tim Fisher) Date: Tue Oct 30 04:27:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] heat treating for color In-Reply-To: <836123.20305.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <062501c81aa9$d7b75290$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <836123.20305.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200710301127.l9UBRcoO024952@bubbleator.drizzle.com> There are some heat treating recipes on my site. These are for knapping but are known to deepen the color of agate as well. http://orerockon.com/Heat_treating.htm At 10:39 PM 10/29/2007, you wrote: >There used to be a website that had a lot of that >information Liccini.com, but Marc died and it disappeared. > >You might find what you need if you browse around in the Wayback >Archive in the copies of Liccini.com. > >I seem to recall ... burying with sand, 500 degrees, washing >carefully to remove oil, and cooling slowly. Good luck. My one >attempt to heat-treat turned worthless agate into worthlesser >agate. You may say "'Worthlesser' isn't a word", but that's because >you didn't see the agate. > >Carol Carter-Wientjes wrote: Does anyone on >the forum know what the method is to heat treat carnelian to >deepen the color? Seems like you have to turn the temp up so many degrees >every hour but can't recall the specific details now. > >Any ideas? Thanks so much, Carol Tim Fisher Ore-ROCK-On! Email address at http://OreRockOn.com From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 30 06:22:04 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 30 06:22:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral Message-ID: Interesting the way we have been talking back and forth about this topic... Part of this is the simple difference between "what mineralogists study" and those minerals to which we assign formal names. Obviously, any "mineral material" that occurs somewhere in or on the earth and has scientific (and perhaps economic or health, societal, environmental, historic, etc.) interest and value, is worth studying and is going to be studied, regardless of whether it is amorphous, biogenic, inadvertently or intentionally human-produced, and so on. If a chemical precipate forms on the rocks and bed of a river that has a lot of acid mine drainage going into it, and this precipitate forms an orange gunk that is composed of mostly amorphous hydrated iron oxide, and it also traps and precipates an assortment of other trace heavy metals, and for all we know, bacterial growth on the rocks perhaps plays a role is depositing it too, this material is going to be of scientific and environmental importance, and it is going to be worth studying, with all the techniques available to modern mineralogy and materials (and biological) science; and it doesn't matter one whit, whether this material is crystalline, or amorphous, or some combination in between, as to our need to study it; those are some of the very things we will want to find out! So it's certainly a valid and important subject for mineralogical study. But for our convenience in keeping track of and having names to readily refer to these materials of the Earth, we've decided to have a system of mineral names, so we obviously need certain sensible rules to uniformly assign those names. Hence, we have our "mineral species" names. Because it's much easier to say or write "elbaite", that to have to each time, say "that mineral with the rhombohedral tourmaline crystal structure, sodium in the nine-coordinated A site, lithium and aluminum in the octahedral Y site, ... etc.". And as to these little questions about whether mercury, water, magma, do or don't qualify as "minerals", well, several people have already addressed that, so I won't try to repeat anything. Personally I am quite happy with mercury and ice as "minerals", and water and magma as "not", so I'll just leave it at that. Cheers, to all my well-mineralized friends, Pete Modreski ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Pmodreski at aol.com Tue Oct 30 06:40:16 2007 From: Pmodreski at aol.com (Pmodreski@aol.com) Date: Tue Oct 30 06:40:30 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] heat treating for color Message-ID: In a message dated 10/30/2007 5:28:03 AM Mountain Daylight Time, nospam@orerockon.com writes: http://orerockon.com/Heat_treating.htm I was just looking at that page of your site, Tim. For those of us "not into" this, I was quite surprised at all these recipes for heat-treating jaspers, etc. Does anyone know if Native Americans did any such heat-treatment of jaspers and flints before knapping them, or did they just use them "as is"? A separate question, from improving the "knappability" of stones, is about its improvement of their color. How do people feel about the ethics of of "improving" color in stones by heat treating? I don't know a whole lot about such things; for example, I had no idea that some carnelian is heat treated to improve its color. To a degree, I tend to feel that such treatment is, well, should I call it dishonest? Although we all know that this is commonly done in many various way, for many materials. These treatments make them look pretty for sale in gift shops and use in jewelry, but of course we collectors, hope we know when we are buying material, whether it is "natural" or treated or enhanced in some way. I don't expect to see things labeled about that in a common gift shop, but one would hope that they are so labelled if they have been treated in ANY way, when sold to collectors! P.S., in scanning the list on your site, I was a little bit (shocked/concerned?) when I saw a recipe for heating "mook jasper" on the list. I have a really nice piece of "mookaite", and it's one that I particularly enjoy showing to kids when I'm giving presentations to school classes about rocks; they are always impressed with the beautiful color pattern of bright red, yellow, buff, tan, plus the cute name. I'd be very disillusioned to know that these beautiful colors have been enhanced by heating; I've always assumed that my rock is completely natural (and I still hope it is... but now I'm not completely sure). Pete ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From jr50wv at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 06:44:57 2007 From: jr50wv at yahoo.com (J. R. Hodel) Date: Tue Oct 30 06:45:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] American Geologist's Most Wanted Message-ID: <876395.85760.qm@web56303.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi: I've heard from a co-worker that there is a search on for occurrences of a particular trace fossil. So far it is only identified from WV and western VA, the details and photos are at a WV Geologic and Economic Survey web page at: http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/news/wanted.htm So if anyone knows a field paleontologist you might pass this request on to them. Alan, I'm thinking of you in particular! Thanks all, JR __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From john at pandemoniumgraphics.com Tue Oct 30 06:48:28 2007 From: john at pandemoniumgraphics.com (John Siebel) Date: Tue Oct 30 06:49:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral References: <24686562.175251193718695976.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002a01c81afb$93350ca0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Brother Don, You're addressing the GSA? Do tell! John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:31 PM Subject: Re: RE: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > > Come on brother Axel, I'm surprised to hear you say that. Mercury is a > metallic native element which makes it a special case. And mercury does > freeze at extreme earth temperatures and it does have a crystal structure > when it does. > > Water is a covalent molecule, not an element. If water should be a > mineral, then magma should be a mineral. Water is the "magma" for ice. > It makes more sense for ice to be a mineral than it does for newberyite to > be a mineral. > > Well anyway, since I'm not on the nomenclature commission (and BTW, the > IMA does a *lot* more than write the definition of a mineral), I need to > get back to something I can actually have an effect upon, my talk for > tomorrow. The GSA convention is going well, Denver is a neat city, and it > was nice to finally meet Pete Modreski. > > Best, > Don From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Oct 30 07:28:38 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Oct 30 07:28:44 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam on Shaky (well, soluble) Ground In-Reply-To: <836123.20305.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <062501c81aa9$d7b75290$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <836123.20305.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ef01c81b01$2a319970$6b01a8c0@okapi> Didn't the engineers of the Mosul Dam in Iraq ever take geology? They built a big chunk of the beast on top of gypsum beds. 500,000 will drown if it breaks. It reminds me of a dam on the south eastern margin of the black hills. Yup. Built over the Spearfish. GcB From murowchickj at umkc.edu Tue Oct 30 07:56:33 2007 From: murowchickj at umkc.edu (Jim Murowchick) Date: Tue Oct 30 07:56:51 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam Message-ID: Gary- What dam in the Black Hills are you thinking of? Jim Murowchick GcB wrote: Didn't the engineers of the Mosul Dam in Iraq ever take geology? They built a big chunk of the beast on top of gypsum beds. 500,000 will drown if it breaks. It reminds me of a dam on the south eastern margin of the black hills. Yup. Built over the Spearfish. GcB From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Oct 30 08:09:42 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Oct 30 08:09:41 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f901c81b06$e6739f70$6b01a8c0@okapi> It was kinda north of and a bit east of Hot Springs, if I remember. Of course, that's trying to remember something from an engineering geology class back in '72. Good lord... That was 35 years ago! (Now that I'm thinking some more, that could have been a dam on the (memory...memory...we're sorry, those circuits are currently out of service...) Minnelusa?) Anyway, thing leaked like a sieve...never did hold water. GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Jim Murowchick > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:57 AM > To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors' > Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam > > Gary- > What dam in the Black Hills are you thinking of? > Jim Murowchick From murowchickj at umkc.edu Tue Oct 30 08:43:24 2007 From: murowchickj at umkc.edu (Jim Murowchick) Date: Tue Oct 30 08:43:28 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam In-Reply-To: <00f901c81b06$e6739f70$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: Just curious. I teach our geology field camp in the Black Hills, though we're mainly in the northern part. I'll dig into this a bit more. Thanks. BTW-when I hit reply to your e-mail, your e-mail address gets combined with the rockhounds list address: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors ," That results in an undelivered message. Any idea who I should mention this to? Jim On 10/30/07 10:09 AM, "Gary Brown" wrote: > It was kinda north of and a bit east of Hot Springs, if I remember. Of > course, that's trying to remember something from an engineering geology > class back in '72. Good lord... That was 35 years ago! (Now that I'm > thinking some more, that could have been a dam on the > (memory...memory...we're sorry, those circuits are currently out of > service...) Minnelusa?) Anyway, thing leaked like a sieve...never did hold > water. > > GcB > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com >> [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of >> Jim Murowchick >> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:57 AM >> To: 'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >> collectors' >> Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam >> >> Gary- >> What dam in the Black Hills are you thinking of? >> Jim Murowchick From albalmer at att.net Tue Oct 30 09:18:09 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Tue Oct 30 09:18:17 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam In-Reply-To: References: <00f901c81b06$e6739f70$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <44mei3ds03vosm0ro0q6sukojss5sg1hfi@4ax.com> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:43:24 -0500, "Jim Murowchick" wrote: >Just curious. I teach our geology field camp in the Black Hills, though >we're mainly in the northern part. I'll dig into this a bit more. Thanks. > >BTW-when I hit reply to your e-mail, your e-mail address gets combined with >the rockhounds list address: > >"Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors ," > > >That results in an undelivered message. Any idea who I should mention this >to? > The publisher of your mail software, which is unfamiliar to me. Apparently Gary specifies a "Reply To" header, which the mail list adds to its own. My email client, Agent, simply generates two addresses in the "To" field. Yours doesn't seem to handle the two addresses correctly. -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Oct 30 09:50:59 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Oct 30 09:50:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam In-Reply-To: References: <00f901c81b06$e6739f70$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <011a01c81b15$0cf86e10$6b01a8c0@okapi> Perry Rahn at SD Tech taught that course. He retired a couple of years ago, but I'd reckon the GeolE department at Tech would have the information. GcB PS. The message got delivered OK... Dunno what the problem is with the header, though. > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Jim Murowchick > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:43 AM > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors , > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam > > Just curious. I teach our geology field camp in the Black > Hills, though we're mainly in the northern part. I'll dig > into this a bit more. Thanks. > > BTW-when I hit reply to your e-mail, your e-mail address gets > combined with the rockhounds list address: > > "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors ," > > > That results in an undelivered message. Any idea who I > should mention this to? > > Jim > From axel.emmermann at pandora.be Tue Oct 30 10:38:14 2007 From: axel.emmermann at pandora.be (Axel Emmermann) Date: Tue Oct 30 10:38:19 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral In-Reply-To: <002a01c81afb$93350ca0$0200a8c0@Notebook> References: <24686562.175251193718695976.JavaMail.root@vms226.mailsrvcs.net> <002a01c81afb$93350ca0$0200a8c0@Notebook> Message-ID: <002601c81b1b$a66d5870$6401a8c0@AxelHP> Yes Don, I'm speaking for my club too next Friday but speaking for the GSA just maybe carries a little more weight (LOL). I agree with John. Do tell! (I had to look up the GSA... OOPS... Among the Google hits were Genetics Society of America, Gay-Straight Alliance Network, Groninger Students Aeroclub, Girls' Schools Association, and a ton of other acronyms. I 'll assume the two candidates are Geological Society of Australia and the Geological Society of America, the latter being the most likely ;-))))) BTW: do you still get nervous when you have to address a crowd? The European brother Axel > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] Namens John Siebel > Verzonden: dinsdag 30 oktober 2007 14:48 > Aan: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors > Onderwerp: Re: RE: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > > Brother Don, > > You're addressing the GSA? Do tell! > > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > collectors" > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: RE: [Rockhounds] What is a mineral > > > > > > Come on brother Axel, I'm surprised to hear you say that. > Mercury is a > > metallic native element which makes it a special case. And > mercury does > > freeze at extreme earth temperatures and it does have a > crystal structure > > when it does. > > > > Water is a covalent molecule, not an element. If water should be a > > mineral, then magma should be a mineral. Water is the > "magma" for ice. > > It makes more sense for ice to be a mineral than it does > for newberyite to > > be a mineral. > > > > Well anyway, since I'm not on the nomenclature commission > (and BTW, the > > IMA does a *lot* more than write the definition of a > mineral), I need to > > get back to something I can actually have an effect upon, > my talk for > > tomorrow. The GSA convention is going well, Denver is a > neat city, and it > > was nice to finally meet Pete Modreski. > > > > Best, > > Don > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > From turnea55 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 11:20:12 2007 From: turnea55 at hotmail.com (Andrew Turner) Date: Tue Oct 30 11:20:20 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam In-Reply-To: <011a01c81b15$0cf86e10$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure you are referring to the dam at Pactola Reservoir which I believe is built into part of the Spearfish Formation. One of the people I work with used to do work up there and knows quite a bit about this dam and some of the issues (including political) involved with it's design and construction. I've been there several times (took a field geology course and lived there a summer working at Jewel Cave Nat'l Monument). In all fairness, if a dam needed to be built in that area, almost all of the formations would have been poor choices (even the granite which is very friable and loaded with shear planes, pegmatite veins, joint sets, etc. and isn't found much in the area near Pactola). Andrew Turner Victorville, CA USA >From: "Gary Brown" >Reply-To: gbrown@catspaw-minerals.com, "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A >mailing list for rock and gem collectors" >To: "'Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem >collectors'" >Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam >Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:50:59 -0500 > >Perry Rahn at SD Tech taught that course. He retired a couple of years >ago, >but I'd reckon the GeolE department at Tech would have the information. > >GcB > >PS. The message got delivered OK... Dunno what the problem is with the >header, though. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > > Jim Murowchick > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:43 AM > > To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem > > collectors , > > Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam > > > > Just curious. I teach our geology field camp in the Black > > Hills, though we're mainly in the northern part. I'll dig > > into this a bit more. Thanks. > > > > BTW-when I hit reply to your e-mail, your e-mail address gets > > combined with the rockhounds list address: > > > > "Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors ," > > > > > > That results in an undelivered message. Any idea who I > > should mention this to? > > > > Jim > > > >-- >_______________________________________________ >Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List >Subscription Services: >http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds >List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: >http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html From codeburner at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 11:41:45 2007 From: codeburner at gmail.com (J Bryan Kramer) Date: Tue Oct 30 11:41:50 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam on Shaky (well, soluble) Ground In-Reply-To: <00ef01c81b01$2a319970$6b01a8c0@okapi> References: <062501c81aa9$d7b75290$6501a8c0@YOUR6D949099C0> <836123.20305.qm@web82514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <00ef01c81b01$2a319970$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: They built a dam on the Suwannee river, quite awhile ago. It's on karst topography and when the dam was done, nothing happened. Water level didn't go up or down the water just followed subterranean channels under the dam and back up the other side. You can still see the remnants of the structure up in north Florida. My guess is they didn't hire an engineer or geologist. BK On 10/30/07, Gary Brown wrote: > > Didn't the engineers of the Mosul Dam in Iraq ever take geology? They > built > a big chunk of the beast on top of gypsum beds. 500,000 will drown if it > breaks. It reminds me of a dam on the south eastern margin of the black > hills. Yup. Built over the Spearfish. > > GcB > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html > -- J Bryan Kramer North Florida, USA photos at: http://pbase.com/photoburner --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com Tue Oct 30 11:51:14 2007 From: gbrown at catspaw-minerals.com (Gary Brown) Date: Tue Oct 30 11:51:14 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam In-Reply-To: References: <011a01c81b15$0cf86e10$6b01a8c0@okapi> Message-ID: <013a01c81b25$dafddfb0$6b01a8c0@okapi> I doubt if it was Pactola. That's in the core section of the mid-northern hills. The Spearfish fm surrounds the hills (except for a couple of weird pockets). GcB > -----Original Message----- > From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com > [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of > Andrew Turner > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:20 PM > To: rockhounds@lists.drizzle.com > Subject: RE: [Rockhounds] Mosul Dam > > I'm pretty sure you are referring to the dam at Pactola > Reservoir which I believe is built into part of the Spearfish > Formation. One of the people I work with used to do work up > there and knows quite a bit about this dam and some of the > issues (including political) involved with it's design and > construction. I've been there several times (took a field > geology course and lived there a summer working at Jewel Cave > Nat'l Monument). In all fairness, if a dam needed to be > built in that area, almost all of the formations would have > been poor choices (even the granite which is very friable and > loaded with shear planes, pegmatite veins, joint sets, etc. > and isn't found much in the area near Pactola). > > Andrew Turner > Victorville, CA USA From pawpawtiger at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 15:35:20 2007 From: pawpawtiger at hotmail.com (Glenn Wimpee) Date: Tue Oct 30 15:35:23 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Intermediate Trip Report Message-ID: Jeanette and I are in Salt Lake City welcoming a new granddaughter. We flew in Saturday night and were able to catch a couple of hours of the Wasatch Rock and Gem Show Sunday afternoon. The displays were interesting and varied and well done. The dealers were varied and well stocked. One of the dealers was the owner of an Australian opal mine and had some cool items on display and for sale. These included opalized belamites and other fossils. He also offered some red Ethiopian opal nodules that I had not seen previously. Much of his rough from his mine was very reasonably priced. Jeanette came away with a few samples to try her hand at cabbing. She also snagged several slabs including some pretty Idaho agate. I picked up a nice cabinet piece of red coral. The Wasatch club gave us a nice bag of various rough pieces to try the security agents skills when we fly home. LOL! We plan to drive down to the Moab area for a couple of days while the weather is still nice. More to come... Glenn _________________________________________________________________ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Caf?. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From dpowell13 at rochester.rr.com Tue Oct 30 18:16:47 2007 From: dpowell13 at rochester.rr.com (Holly & Darryl) Date: Tue Oct 30 18:17:06 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Mini Miners Monthly for Kids Message-ID: <403144209FE544A0A9898BFB1352913F@6626PC> Dear Rockhounds, Advanced warning: this is an ad. Please delete now if you don't want the bother. Thanks! Mini Miners Monthly, a monthly newsletter about minerals for kids, is now in its 9th month. With the holidays nearly upon us, I wanted to offer a special for members of the rockhounds list (and anyone else interested!) The regular subscription price for Mini Miners Monthly is $19.95 for 12 issues. Subscription orders received between now and December 31 will receive 13 issues for the price of 12. (A real baker's dozen!) To mineral club and society bulletin editors and web masters: Clubs and societies receive with their subscription permission to reproduce up to 3 pages per month of Mini Miners material in their printed bulletins and websites. A sample issue is available at www.diamonddanpublications.com. Please email me offlist (diamonddan@rochester.rr.com) with questions or requests. Thank you all. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. Sincerely, Darryl Powell aka Diamond Dan --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- From Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net Tue Oct 30 19:10:55 2007 From: Kreigh at Tomaszewski.net (Kreigh Tomaszewski) Date: Tue Oct 30 19:07:03 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Mini Miners Monthly for Kids References: <403144209FE544A0A9898BFB1352913F@6626PC> Message-ID: <4727E33A.6073@Tomaszewski.net> This is a personal endorsement, but I want to start with my disclaimer; I have been a satisfied customer of Darryl in the past. I subscribed early to Mini Miners Monthly to get ideas for helping me in my classroom presentations. I have not been disappointed. Darryl & Holly have no idea I am doing this. I plan to renew my subscription when it expires. I think that Holly & Darryl are producing a quality publication aimed at getting, and keeping, kids interested in Rockhounding. To keep our hobby alive we need to be reaching out to kids, and capturing their imagination with Rocks and Minerals, and the wonders of Science they disclose. If you have a (possible) Pebble Pup in you life, I would suggest you need to take a (second) look at Mini Miners Monthly. Kreigh Holly & Darryl wrote: > > Dear Rockhounds, > Advanced warning: this is an ad. Please delete now if you don't want the bother. Thanks! > > Mini Miners Monthly, a monthly newsletter about minerals for kids, is now in its 9th month. With the holidays nearly upon us, I wanted to offer a special for members of the rockhounds list (and anyone else interested!) The regular subscription price for Mini Miners Monthly is $19.95 for 12 issues. Subscription orders received between now and December 31 will receive 13 issues for the price of 12. (A real baker's dozen!) > > To mineral club and society bulletin editors and web masters: Clubs and societies receive with their subscription permission to reproduce up to 3 pages per month of Mini Miners material in their printed bulletins and websites. > > A sample issue is available at www.diamonddanpublications.com. > > Please email me offlist (diamonddan@rochester.rr.com) with questions or requests. > > Thank you all. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. > > Sincerely, > Darryl Powell > aka Diamond Dan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- From mike at colellaphoto.com Tue Oct 30 19:13:05 2007 From: mike at colellaphoto.com (Michael J. Colella) Date: Tue Oct 30 19:14:57 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Mini Miners Monthly for Kids In-Reply-To: <4727E33A.6073@Tomaszewski.net> References: <403144209FE544A0A9898BFB1352913F@6626PC> <4727E33A.6073@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: <031701c81b63$92ec96b0$b8c5c410$@com> I whole heartedly agree, excellent publication for kids. Mike Colella -----Original Message----- From: rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com [mailto:rockhounds-bounces@lists.drizzle.com] On Behalf Of Kreigh Tomaszewski Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:11 PM To: Rockhounds@drizzle.com: A mailing list for rock and gem collectors Subject: Re: [Rockhounds] AD: Mini Miners Monthly for Kids This is a personal endorsement, but I want to start with my disclaimer; I have been a satisfied customer of Darryl in the past. I subscribed early to Mini Miners Monthly to get ideas for helping me in my classroom presentations. I have not been disappointed. Darryl & Holly have no idea I am doing this. I plan to renew my subscription when it expires. I think that Holly & Darryl are producing a quality publication aimed at getting, and keeping, kids interested in Rockhounding. To keep our hobby alive we need to be reaching out to kids, and capturing their imagination with Rocks and Minerals, and the wonders of Science they disclose. If you have a (possible) Pebble Pup in you life, I would suggest you need to take a (second) look at Mini Miners Monthly. Kreigh Holly & Darryl wrote: > > Dear Rockhounds, > Advanced warning: this is an ad. Please delete now if you don't want the bother. Thanks! > > Mini Miners Monthly, a monthly newsletter about minerals for kids, is now in its 9th month. With the holidays nearly upon us, I wanted to offer a special for members of the rockhounds list (and anyone else interested!) The regular subscription price for Mini Miners Monthly is $19.95 for 12 issues. Subscription orders received between now and December 31 will receive 13 issues for the price of 12. (A real baker's dozen!) > > To mineral club and society bulletin editors and web masters: Clubs and societies receive with their subscription permission to reproduce up to 3 pages per month of Mini Miners material in their printed bulletins and websites. > > A sample issue is available at www.diamonddanpublications.com. > > Please email me offlist (diamonddan@rochester.rr.com) with questions or requests. > > Thank you all. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. > > Sincerely, > Darryl Powell > aka Diamond Dan > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- -- _______________________________________________ Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List Subscription Services: http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1098 - Release Date: 10/29/2007 9:28 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1098 - Release Date: 10/29/2007 9:28 AM From albalmer at att.net Wed Oct 31 08:05:18 2007 From: albalmer at att.net (Al Balmer) Date: Wed Oct 31 08:05:33 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] AD: Mini Miners Monthly for Kids In-Reply-To: <4727E33A.6073@Tomaszewski.net> References: <403144209FE544A0A9898BFB1352913F@6626PC> <4727E33A.6073@Tomaszewski.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:10:55 -0500, Kreigh Tomaszewski wrote: >This is a personal endorsement, but I want to start with my > disclaimer; I have been a satisfied customer of Darryl in the past. > I subscribed early to Mini Miners Monthly to get ideas for helping > me in my classroom presentations. I have not been disappointed. > Darryl & Holly have no idea I am doing this. I plan to renew my > subscription when it expires. > >I think that Holly & Darryl are producing a quality publication aimed at >getting, and keeping, kids interested in Rockhounding. > >To keep our hobby alive we need to be reaching out to kids, and >capturing their imagination with Rocks and Minerals, and the wonders of >Science they disclose. > >If you have a (possible) Pebble Pup in you life, I would suggest you >need to take a (second) look at Mini Miners Monthly. > Look at Darryl's other publications, too. Several years ago, my young niece was enthralled by one of his mineral coloring books, and learned a lot, too. >Kreigh > > > > > >Holly & Darryl wrote: >> >> Dear Rockhounds, >> Advanced warning: this is an ad. Please delete now if you don't want the bother. Thanks! >> >> Mini Miners Monthly, a monthly newsletter about minerals for kids, is now in its 9th month. With the holidays nearly upon us, I wanted to offer a special for members of the rockhounds list (and anyone else interested!) The regular subscription price for Mini Miners Monthly is $19.95 for 12 issues. Subscription orders received between now and December 31 will receive 13 issues for the price of 12. (A real baker's dozen!) >> >> To mineral club and society bulletin editors and web masters: Clubs and societies receive with their subscription permission to reproduce up to 3 pages per month of Mini Miners material in their printed bulletins and websites. >> >> A sample issue is available at www.diamonddanpublications.com. >> >> Please email me offlist (diamonddan@rochester.rr.com) with questions or requests. >> >> Thank you all. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. >> >> Sincerely, >> Darryl Powell >> aka Diamond Dan >> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- >> multipart/alternative >> text/plain (text body -- kept) >> text/html >> --- -- Al Balmer Sun City, AZ From rockcurrier at cs.com Wed Oct 31 17:50:18 2007 From: rockcurrier at cs.com (Rock Currier) Date: Wed Oct 31 17:48:35 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] Heat treating agate to get carnelian References: <200710310202.l9V21m6a014815@bubbleator.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <014101c81c21$2d096cb0$6901a8c0@rock3> Don, Don't go beating up on Axel too hard, I have been chewing on him a bit off line too. Some how I don't think I changed his mind much or vice versa. Carol, I think that before you can heat treat agate and turn it into citrine, the agate must have the appropriate iron minerals diffused into the agate naturally or by man. Most agates are porous to some degree or another and some layers are much more porous than others. The agate factories in Brazil and other places commonly diffuse various chemicals into the agate and then heat treat them to "develop" the color. There are various formulas for this that have been used for more than 100 years. The oldest and used since antiquity is to use sugar, originally honey, to saturate the agate and then sulfuric acid or heat to carbonize the sugar and die the agate black. John Sinkankas wrote a book that had formulas that are commonly used for this and a wealth of other data as well. Some of the formulas contain a bit of "magic" that have been derived over the years by trial and error. The people who use them don't know why they work, they just do. A friend of mine in Uruguay used to make green died agate and he said he got best results for green by buying a certain kind of nails that the local blacksmith used for shoeing horses and dissolving those in nitric acid. He said that other kinds of iron he had tried didn't give as good results. He was an honest man and a good friend, I bought a lot of his agates, and I am sure he was telling the truth. Some places have natural carnelian in abundance. In Artigas, Uruguay the little town on the northern Border of Uruguay with Brazil, it is not uncommon to find little pebbles of carnelian in the fields or in or along the dirt roads of the area. A man I used to do business with would pay the kids about five or ten cents a kg for the stuff which he would put in his tumblers. In Kambay (Cambay) the little agate manufacturing town at the head of the gulf of Kambat in Gugurat state in India (North of Bombay) agates have been gathered for generations from the fields around town for the manufacture of beggar beads and haj beads. This agate in its raw state is very non descript looking, but after a heat treatment it often becomes a very nice carnelian color. They put it into cheap earthen ware pots (or at least they used to), placed in little rectangular low walled brick enclosures and anything burnable was pilled on top of them and around the pots. The whole thing was set on fire and covered with corrugated metal to keep as much of the heat in as possible. When the fire went out and things had cooled down, the agate was removed. The agate formerly was allowed to dry out in the sun for a year or two because this made it easier to work. All the agate there was knapped to shape with the use of little pointed steel points that were driven butt end down into the ground. The agate chunk was brought near the steal point, and a little long handled wooden mallet was used to smack the agate down against the point and spall of pieces. They could crank out various rough shapes with amazing speed. Un dried agate was harder to shape, or so they told me and heating the agate got rid of the water and improved the color. If you have a piece of carnelian that had been heat treated to enhance its color, I don't know how you could determine if it had been heated by a brush fire or in a kiln by man. Some of the chemicals that are commonly used to die agate red could probably be detected and those could be determined to be died by man colors. In most of the agates that are died in Brazil, the agates are first cut and shaped before they are died. The chemicals are diffused only into the first two or three mm of the agate because that is all they need to give the bookends etc the color they need to sell them. The Germans who were the masters of dying agates would let the lapidary objects sit a much longer time in the chemicals I think before they finished them, and the color penetration of the agate was much greater than most commercial agate items that are produced today. Rock Rock Currier rockcurrier@CS.com Jewel Tunnel Imports 13100 Spring St. Baldwin Park, CA 91706 626-814-2257 From deepskyspy at insightbb.com Wed Oct 31 19:02:24 2007 From: deepskyspy at insightbb.com (Alan Goldstein) Date: Wed Oct 31 19:02:11 2007 Subject: [Rockhounds] American Geologist's Most Wanted References: <876395.85760.qm@web56303.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c81c2b$3ef9aa20$6501a8c0@yourb79wz4rose> Haven't seen that in the Middle Devonian rocks around here. Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. R. Hodel" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:44 AM Subject: [Rockhounds] American Geologist's Most Wanted > Hi: > > I've heard from a co-worker that there is a search on for occurrences of a > particular trace fossil. So far it is only identified from WV and western > VA, the details and photos are at a WV Geologic and Economic Survey web > page at: > > http://www.wvgs.wvnet.edu/www/news/wanted.htm > > So if anyone knows a field paleontologist you might pass this request on > to them. Alan, I'm thinking of you in particular! > > Thanks all, > JR > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- > multipart/alternative > text/plain (text body -- kept) > text/html > --- > -- > _______________________________________________ > Rockhounds@drizzle Mailing List > Subscription Services: > http://lists.drizzle.com/mailman/listinfo/rockhounds > List Home Page, with a link to the List Usage Policy: > http://www.eclecticlapidary.com/Rockhounds/index.html